Author Topic: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters  (Read 8522 times)

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jackiepreece

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Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« on: January 06, 2013, 09:45:43 AM »
Questions for the Bamber is Guilty Posters

1)
Colin Caffell guessed that Sheila had committed suicide when the police called to the house to tell him about the murders.  If Colin really believed Sheila's state of mind was so bad around that period why is it so hard to believe she would also kill her children/family.
Someone that would appear that ill surely does think rationally and I am sure if an expert had seen her around the last time Colin was with her she would have been sectioned to somewhere where she would be safe???

2)
Supposedly the police who dealt with the murders on the day were highly experienced.  I find it completely bizarre Sheila's clean condition was not questioned. As probably one of the biggest incidents most of the police had ever attended quite unbelievable ????

3)
Should it be ruled out when debating the case that Neville was forced by a third party to ring Jeremy  in the light of threats made to Neville by certain individuals and a panic alarm being fitted to WHF?
Could the murders have been committed by this third party and Jeremy doesn't even know and still believes it to be Sheila himself?

4)
Why was vital evidence destroyed from probably the biggest murder ever carried out in Essex when Jeremy made it clear from day one he would be appealing???

5)
Why did David Boutflour mislead the jury by saying Sheila had never used a gun????

Even back in 1986 it was known by most of the general public you could contaminate evidence. Why would the family remove the silencer and tamper with it and not call the police?

6)
PC mercer remains adamant his dog would have picked up firearms residue on Jeremy surely another strong point in Jeremy's favour?

7)
There seems to be no ACTUAL evidence that Jeremy hated Sheila/his family

8)
Jeremy had savings at the time of the murders and had a beautiful cottage furnished by his family from an expensive store in London. The landlord from the local pub where Jeremy ate most nights supported Jeremy and certainly never gave any evidence that Jeremy was unhappy with his family, job, lifestyle.

9)
Would Jeremy really have dumped Julie Mugford so soon after the murders if she really knew he was responsible?

Offline puglove

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2013, 12:13:45 PM »
Jac, you know Mercer, don't you? Doesn't he work in your local Co Op, or something? Was his dog a sniffer dog, trained for gun residue, or just a bog standard police dog?
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline Andrea

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2013, 12:29:15 PM »
colin didnt believe Sheila's state of mind was bad at the time of the murders, he said she was quiet on the journey to WHF. He did believe that Sheila killed herself, but couldnt accept that she would shoot her boys or her father. Especially the way in which they were murdered.

Offline goatboy

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2013, 03:01:08 PM »
1)
Colin Caffell guessed that Sheila had committed suicide when the police called to the house to tell him about the murders.  If Colin really believed Sheila's state of mind was so bad around that period why is it so hard to believe she would also kill her children/family.
Someone that would appear that ill surely does think rationally and I am sure if an expert had seen her around the last time Colin was with her she would have been sectioned to somewhere where she would be safe???


I don't doubt that Sheila had serious mental problems. I suspect when Colin was told it was merely explained that she had shot her children and parents then herself. I doubt if the police went into detail about the fact her nails appeared perfectly manicured, that she must have reloaded the rifle at least twice, and furthermore gone on a killing spree in a flimsy nightie with no pockets to keep extra ammo in. Finally they may not even have said she had two bullet wounds. All of this would have put doubts in Colin's head. Though I don't doubt she could have had suicidal impulses (though how can anybody know what goes on in someone's mind?) myself and many others feel it unlikely she would have killed her children at the Bamber residence, and furthermore that she would have delivered the final blow in a different room to her children. It's not enough just to say "she wasn't thinking straight because she was mad."
2)
Supposedly the police who dealt with the murders on the day were highly experienced.  I find it completely bizarre Sheila's clean condition was not questioned. As probably one of the biggest incidents most of the police had ever attended quite unbelievable ????

Not all of them did, remember, Stan Jones was doing his job properly in the face of much opposition from his colleagues. Bamber did a good job in painting the scene that the police would expect to find and the police initially saw no reason to doubt his story. Don't forget also that everyone, guilty and innocent camp alike, agrees the initial crime scene investigation was incredibly badly handled and EP were hauled over the coals for it subsequently. Anyone remember the newspaper headline showing a furious then Home Secretary Douglas Hurd stating "How did you let him fool you?"
3)
Should it be ruled out when debating the case that Neville was forced by a third party to ring Jeremy  in the light of threats made to Neville by certain individuals and a panic alarm being fitted to WHF?
Could the murders have been committed by this third party and Jeremy doesn't even know and still believes it to be Sheila himself?

Yes, it can be completely ruled out. Why would a third party decide to make it look like Sheila was the killer while simultaneously framing Bamber? It makes no sense. Also there were no signs of forced entry to/exit from the property, and only Jeremy himself knew a way of getting in and out undetected
4)
Why was vital evidence destroyed from probably the biggest murder ever carried out in Essex when Jeremy made it clear from day one he would be appealing???

See answer 2, EP badly mishandled the case. Remember they even disposed of bloodstained clothing and bedding at the scene, and contrary to what we have heard on the blue forum this was done by the police following a request from Bamber which they happily complied with, it was certainly not the police's decision to do this, and one of the many acts for which EP received criticism
5)
Why did David Boutflour mislead the jury by saying Sheila had never used a gun????

Even back in 1986 it was known by most of the general public you could contaminate evidence. Why would the family remove the silencer and tamper with it and not call the police?

If EP had done their job correctly they would have found the silencer, regardless of the integrity of the exhibit it is widely believed it was Sheila's bood inside. How did this get in there? Do you really believe somebody planted it there as they had samples of her period blood (this theory has been taken seriously on the blue forum believe it or not)? While it is possible Sheila may have handled a gun in her childhood it is not likely she had done so recently, and certainly not often enough to have competently handled the rifle as the killer had clearly done. I've no idea why David would have said never though.
6)
PC mercer remains adamant his dog would have picked up firearms residue on Jeremy surely another strong point in Jeremy's favour?

Two reasons: If Jeremy himself did the shootings he certainly would have worn gloves and protective clothing and disposed of these carefully to make sure he was forensically clean. Alternatively he didn't actually do any of the shooting himself as a hitman did it for him. This is working on the assumption that the dog definitely was trained to detect firearm residue. Why would they have needed such a dog at the scene anyway given what the police were expecting to find (namely a deranged woman with a rifle who may have killed four other people?
7)
There seems to be no ACTUAL evidence that Jeremy hated Sheila/his family
Plenty of people independently stated that he expressed hate for his parents. Were any of these comments written down or recorded on tape? I doubt it, but doesn't this build up a picture of a man who had enough hate in him to have committed the murders?
8)
Jeremy had savings at the time of the murders and had a beautiful cottage furnished by his family from an expensive store in London. The landlord from the local pub where Jeremy ate most nights supported Jeremy and certainly never gave any evidence that Jeremy was unhappy with his family, job, lifestyle.

That he was comparatively well off is not in question, that he stood to be a very wealthy man eventually had he not committed the murders also is true. So what was his motive? Purely and simply his own greed and impatience. He was young at the time, the young are not universally known for their patience.Why would he have confided his innermost feelings and plans to commit the perfect murder to a pub landlord?
9)
Would Jeremy really have dumped Julie Mugford so soon after the murders if she really knew he was responsible?

He was and probably still is a very arrogant man. He simply would have taken the view that she would be seen as a woman scorned who had made up the whole thing and her word against his, and guess what? A number of people still believe this so perhaps this was not as stupid a plan as you may think.

jackiepreece

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Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2013, 03:49:35 PM »
Goatboy in relation to your answer to my question. 1) I am trying take away the argument Sheila would not shoot or harm her children.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't ColinCaffell say to the police when they came to give him the news about the murders 'she's done it then' or something to that effect.
That statement made it sound like Colin Caffell would not be surprised if Sheila would decide to end her life.
If Sheila was in such a bad place she decided to end her own life I have no problem believing she could end the life of her children too. She would have not been thinking rationally at all about anything.

I think there are now plenty of studies that mothers do kill their children in exceptional circumstances

Offline sika

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2013, 05:20:48 PM »
Goatboy in relation to your answer to my question. 1) I am trying take away the argument Sheila would not shoot or harm her children.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't ColinCaffell say to the police when they came to give him the news about the murders 'she's done it then' or something to that effect.
That statement made it sound like Colin Caffell would not be surprised if Sheila would decide to end her life.
If Sheila was in such a bad place she decided to end her own life I have no problem believing she could end the life of her children too. She would have not been thinking rationally at all about anything.

I think there are now plenty of studies that mothers do kill their children in exceptional circumstances
It seems very believable that Shelia was capable of suicide.
It even seems plausible that she might be capable of murder.
In this case those scenarios are rendered totally irrelevant, due to the mountain of evidence which clearly proves, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelia could not have carried out these murders.

Offline sika

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2013, 05:25:11 PM »
Jackie, in response to question 8.
I infer from your question that you believe Jeremy's explanation as to why he carried out the Caravan site robbery.

Offline sika

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2013, 05:33:21 PM »

Supposedly the police who dealt with the murders on the day were highly experienced.  I find it completely bizarre Sheila's clean condition was not questioned. As probably one of the biggest incidents most of the police had ever attended quite unbelievable ????

I agree that it was quite a staggering oversight, although I wouldn't go as far as to say 'unbelievable'.  In any case, how does this support Jeremy's case?
Are you suggesting that Shelia wasn't in the 'clean condition' that we have been led to believe?

Offline Myster

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2013, 05:57:28 PM »
Questions for the Bamber is Guilty Posters

1)
Colin Caffell guessed that Sheila had committed suicide when the police called to the house to tell him about the murders.  If Colin really believed Sheila's state of mind was so bad around that period why is it so hard to believe she would also kill her children/family.
Someone that would appear that ill surely does think rationally and I am sure if an expert had seen her around the last time Colin was with her she would have been sectioned to somewhere where she would be safe???

This is where a simple statement ("Oh no, then she finally did it!") about his first reaction to being told the news is blown up out of all proportion.

He also later stated that physically Sheila was extremely sluggish and nauseous as a result of the Haloperidol injections even after they had been reduced, so much so that she was incapable of making coffee without spilling either the granules or water everywhere, and she was not like that before she received them. He thought it even more unlikely that she was capable of using a rifle, let alone fire it accurately.

You have to consider not only the mental side but also the physical... and in this case the latter outweighs the former.

Have you read 'In search of...', Jackie?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 06:00:51 PM by Myster »
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Andrea

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2013, 06:19:01 PM »
If sheila was worried she would lose her twins, she would have killed them at her own flat in Maida vale, then she would have lay at the side of them and killed herself.

No way would she take her mam and dad with her, what would have been the need in that. You believe this killing was an act of altruism, jackie? if that was the case, Neville and June would still be here.

Offline Angelo222

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2013, 10:44:14 PM »
Goatboy in relation to your answer to my question. 1) I am trying take away the argument Sheila would not shoot or harm her children.
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't ColinCaffell say to the police when they came to give him the news about the murders 'she's done it then' or something to that effect.
That statement made it sound like Colin Caffell would not be surprised if Sheila would decide to end her life.
If Sheila was in such a bad place she decided to end her own life I have no problem believing she could end the life of her children too. She would have not been thinking rationally at all about anything.

I think there are now plenty of studies that mothers do kill their children in exceptional circumstances

If Colin had thought for a minute that Sheila would hurt the twins he would not have allowed them to stay over at the farm.  Sheila doing something silly to herself however was another issue.    8(0(*
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Myster

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2013, 05:08:38 PM »
The attached gives a bit more insight into the way guns were stored and left about at WHF

I have no idea if JB was telling the truth about where he left a gun as we have no way of proving this

I've replied to this in your own thread, Jackie.

*******************************************************

Jeremy Bamber claimed he left the rifle leaning against a pine settle, with a box of ammunition & full magazine clip on top of a blanket lying on it, opposite the den in the vestibule/rear hall adjacent to the kitchen (Wilkes).

The settle (9) can just be seen through the doorway from the office/den...,



But whether he actually left them there is open to question. Granted it does seem slipshod to have firearms and ammunition unsecured (no lock visible on either the gun cupboard or office door) and the Pargeter rifle (with bolt removed) was apparently kept unlocked in the Shower room, but I suppose as Jeremy and Sheila were now adults, security was less of a priority.

It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Tim Invictus

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2013, 07:20:34 PM »
Jackie your questions are puerile and very selective. For example, Colin was TOLD that Sheila had killed herself and her family and he initially accepted what he was told. He thought it was a shotgun spree; but the moment he was told the details of a couple of dozen aimed shots from a rifle reloaded at least twice he was totally convinced Sheila could not have committed the murders.

Colin is absolutely convinced Bamber is guilty and using his uninformed, initial reaction  n such a selective way is totally disingenuous!

I won't bother with all your other biased questions but as it's repeated in every post, you might try spelling the word 'definitely' correctly!

Offline Andrea

Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2013, 09:35:55 PM »
And she just happens to do it when JB leaves a loaded gun on the settle!! On the very same night!

Dont forget, we only have JB's words for what happened at WHF, the discussion about they boys being fostered etc. All the other witnesses are dead.

« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 09:40:54 PM by Andrea »

Dillon

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Re: Questions for the Definately Guilty Posters
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2013, 09:58:15 PM »
Andrea,I disagree with your assertion that Sheila would have commited suicide in London. Sheila appeared to be on a downward spiral and it is possible that talk of changes to her life,which she may have felt she had lost control over,may have just finally pushed her over the edge.She hated whf and was showing paranoia towards others,believing they were the devil etc.It is very possible Sheila suffered a breakdown whilst at whf.

I would be interested to know what evidence you have, Cheryl, to back up your theories. I know for a fact that Sheila had written an entirely normal and optimistic letter to a relative prior going down to WHF discussing arrangements for an outing with the twins and that this was backed up by a telephone conversation during the evening before the murders when she cheerfully confirmed arrangements for the following day. A police officer who interviewed the relative and took a copy of the letter from Sheila commented that it was clearly not written by someone who was ill and was surprised in view of the way the case at that point was being held to be suicide/murder.  Maybe all of this is held under PII ?  It was Jeremy who manipulated the situation and planted the idea in the heads of the Police that Sheila was seriously mentally ill and was responsible for the murders. Any rational consideration of the state of Sheila's body ( see the thread on her innocence )  makes it highly unlikely that she could have been the killer besides other evidence relating to her experience of guns,
character etc. You really should not blacken the memory of someone who was brutally murdered. All this business about the devil too has been distorted and in part reflects comments made by June on finding Sheila in a field having sex with Colin Cafell when she had only recently had a termination consequent on his earlier philandering. The psychiatrist, Ferguson, made much of this and IMO behaved disgracefully and unprofessionally when he wrote an account for the media after the murders when the suicide theory was being put out.