Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: faithlilly on May 27, 2013, 07:01:52 PM
Title: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 27, 2013, 07:01:52 PM
Odd little article. Why are the McCanns publicly saying they are 'encouraged' by the work of SY yet this suggests they are still investigating leads privately ? Are we seeing the beginning of a subtle campaign to discredit the work of SY just as we saw with the PJ and, if so, why ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 27, 2013, 07:20:40 PM
Odd little article. Why are the McCanns publicly saying they are 'encouraged' by the work of SY yet this suggests they are still investigating leads privately ? Are we seeing the beginning of a subtle campaign to discredit the work of SY just as we saw with the PJ and, if so, why ?
It definitely says the current SY team contacted the army, and not any Mccann PIs
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 27, 2013, 07:21:32 PM
I think "Faithlilly" has misunderstood the article. It does not say or even suggest that the McCanns are pursuing their own separate investigation currently.
'Sources close to the McCanns say the family also want to speak to Mr Verran about his whereabouts at the time Madeleine was snatched from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, Portugal '
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 27, 2013, 07:24:03 PM
I think "Faithlilly" has misunderstood the article. It does not say or even suggest that the McCanns are pursuing their own separate investigation currently.
'Sources close to the McCanns say the family also want to speak to Mr Verran about his whereabouts at the time Madeleine was snatched from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, Portugal '
I think it is you who has misunderstood Martha.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 27, 2013, 07:27:20 PM
Since when does being "encouraged" by something mean that you are NOT pleased with it? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 27, 2013, 07:29:13 PM
I think "Faithlilly" has misunderstood the article. It does not say or even suggest that the McCanns are pursuing their own separate investigation currently.
'Sources close to the McCanns say the family also want to speak to Mr Verran about his whereabouts at the time Madeleine was snatched from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, Portugal '
Thats different, hmmm, on what basis in any way shape or form can the family speak to him
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 27, 2013, 07:36:13 PM
I think "Faithlilly" has misunderstood the article. It does not say or even suggest that the McCanns are pursuing their own separate investigation currently.
'Sources close to the McCanns say the family also want to speak to Mr Verran about his whereabouts at the time Madeleine was snatched from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, Portugal '
Thats different, hmmm, on what basis in any way shape or form can the family speak to him
Through their private investigators I assume.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 27, 2013, 07:49:49 PM
I think "Faithlilly" has misunderstood the article. It does not say or even suggest that the McCanns are pursuing their own separate investigation currently.
'Sources close to the McCanns say the family also want to speak to Mr Verran about his whereabouts at the time Madeleine was snatched from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, Portugal '
Thats different, hmmm, on what basis in any way shape or form can the family speak to him
Through their private investigators I assume.
But they havent got any anymore have they? They got rid of them didnt they so as not to jeopardise the SY review???
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2013, 07:53:19 PM
From the article:
Earlier this month, Scotland Yard detectives approached the Army seeking to establish the whereabouts of 50-year-old Mr Verran’s military records.
It seems the McCanns have expressed an interest in a lead Scotland Yard are pursuing.
How very dare them ...
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 27, 2013, 07:57:34 PM
Earlier this month, Scotland Yard detectives approached the Army seeking to establish the whereabouts of 50-year-old Mr Verran’s military records.
It seems the McCanns have expressed an interest in a lead Scotland Yard are pursuing.
How very dare them ...
Expressed an interest in interviewing him. If the McCanns had faith in the SY review what possible reason could the have for doing that ?
I know how you cling avidly to every last detail of the Daily Mail, faith ...
Like you clinging to pathetic mail stories about Mrs Fenn you mean? and trying to rewrite history and facts? Despite proof in the files they were dud? LOL
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 27, 2013, 08:08:39 PM
Earlier this month, Scotland Yard detectives approached the Army seeking to establish the whereabouts of 50-year-old Mr Verran’s military records.
It seems the McCanns have expressed an interest in a lead Scotland Yard are pursuing.
How very dare them ...
Expressed an interest in interviewing him. If the McCanns had faith in the SY review what possible reason could the have for doing that ?
I know how you cling avidly to every last detail of the Daily Mail, faith ...
Like you clinging to pathetic mail stories about Mrs Fenn you mean? and trying to rewrite history and facts? Despite proof in the files they were dud? LOL
Mrs Fenn was on camera being quizzed about whether she'd seen members of the "Tapas 7" (ghastly phrase) beating a path to the apartment ...
Even the worst newspapers don't invent verbatim quotes .
Sources close to the McCanns say ... is in an altogether different league ...
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 27, 2013, 08:17:34 PM
Changing goalposts again FM, zzzz, your argument and failed case re Mrs Fenn was not about the tapas 7, and yes its a good title
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 27, 2013, 08:29:44 PM
Well, see that's what happens when you "assume" too much, you are bound to get it wrong LOL
So can I ASSUME you don't believe the McCanns want to question Verran ?
You can assume whatever you like but you do know that to assume is to make an ASS of u and me, don't you? 8(0(*
Bit like all your assumptions and categorical statements as if true to date then Martha! Hey? 8((()*/
What assumptions and categorical statements would those be then Blossom?
Ummm like a tonne of your sanctimonious posts for instance? your insistence as if it is a FACT that Maddie was abducted, hello? Unless you are the abductor youhave no right to state that as a fact, thats all
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 27, 2013, 09:43:46 PM
Well, see that's what happens when you "assume" too much, you are bound to get it wrong LOL
So can I ASSUME you don't believe the McCanns want to question Verran ?
You can assume whatever you like but you do know that to assume is to make an ASS of u and me, don't you? 8(0(*
Bit like all your assumptions and categorical statements as if true to date then Martha! Hey? 8((()*/
What assumptions and categorical statements would those be then Blossom?
Ummm like a tonne of your sanctimonious posts for instance? your insistence as if it is a FACT that Maddie was abducted, hello? Unless you are the abductor youhave no right to state that as a fact, thats all
No, it's my OPINION that Madeleine was abducted, an opinion that just so happens to be shared by the Scotland Yard team doing the review. Why are you being so unpleasant?
your Mo is un pleasantness so a bit rich there, no SY has NOT said theybelieve there was an abduction, a single man involved said he thought it was, it was a PERSONAL belief, NOT an official police announcement
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 27, 2013, 10:21:06 PM
It is also incorrect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e7h1XXNe0U
This is the OFFICIAL YT Channel of the Met Police.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 27, 2013, 10:30:28 PM
The single man who said it happened to be the head of the review - it would be odd if his opinion differed significantly from the rest of the review team don't you think my dear, sweet Blossom?
Im sure his possy view was his alone, the man blushed and gulped for england lol
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 27, 2013, 10:32:44 PM
Why do McCann "sceptics" think that Redwood's pronouncement that Madeleine could be alive or dead somehow supports their argument that she was not abducted?
They dont most intelligent people think redwood is a wimp and a nonsense and if he is not he has been mase to axt like one, come on, he wa ooozing get me ouy of here, easy to see poor bloke
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 27, 2013, 11:48:10 PM
Why do McCann "sceptics" think that Redwood's pronouncement that Madeleine could be alive or dead somehow supports their argument that she was not abducted?
No, it's most odd. See the above link to the Met's own Youtube channel. Redwood says they initially had two lines of inquiry, but as they were progressing NEW EVIDENCE came to light that pointed to the possibility that Madeleine may be alive & that she had been taken in a criminal act by a stranger.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 27, 2013, 11:55:57 PM
Why do McCann "sceptics" think that Redwood's pronouncement that Madeleine could be alive or dead somehow supports their argument that she was not abducted?
They dont most intelligent people think redwood is a wimp and a nonsense and if he is not he has been mase to axt like one, come on, he wa ooozing get me ouy of here, easy to see poor bloke
spell check not working right tonight red?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 28, 2013, 12:00:19 AM
They get easily confused, half of the time Redwood is a wimp who doesn't know what he's talking about, the rest of the time they claim he is with them & secretly agrees that the McCann are 100% guilty & is only is making fake public statements to lure the McCann into a trap. They just can't get it straight.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Chinagirl on May 28, 2013, 12:00:48 AM
Why do McCann "sceptics" think that Redwood's pronouncement that Madeleine could be alive or dead somehow supports their argument that she was not abducted?
They dont most intelligent people think redwood is a wimp and a nonsense and if he is not he has been mase to axt like one, come on, he wa ooozing get me ouy of here, easy to see poor bloke
Good grief .....
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: DCI on May 28, 2013, 04:25:36 PM
It is also incorrect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e7h1XXNe0U
This is the OFFICIAL YT Channel of the Met Police.
I had forgotten about that one Mrs B, thanks 8((()*/
Interesting, to listen to his exact words.
It is DCI. 195 investigative opportunities and a year later still no nearer to finding Madeleine but hey, never mind, she may be alive so that puts the McCanns in the clear eh !
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: gilet on May 28, 2013, 06:00:34 PM
It is also incorrect. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e7h1XXNe0U
This is the OFFICIAL YT Channel of the Met Police.
I had forgotten about that one Mrs B, thanks 8((()*/
Interesting, to listen to his exact words.
It is DCI. 195 investigative opportunities and a year later still no nearer to finding Madeleine but hey, never mind, she may be alive so that puts the McCanns in the clear eh !
Actually it is the fact that there is no evidence of any crime by the McCanns that puts them in the clear. If you had bothered to read the Attorney General's Archive dispatch you would have spotted that little fact.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Carana on May 28, 2013, 06:03:29 PM
It is DCI. 195 investigative opportunities and a year later still no nearer to finding Madeleine but hey, never mind, she may be alive so that puts the McCanns in the clear eh !
That was when he estimated that they were 1/4 through the analysis. Some may have been checked out and dismissed, others may have arisen since.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 28, 2013, 06:04:12 PM
Quote
Faithlilly so that puts the McCanns in the clear eh
big problem for you isn't it?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 28, 2013, 06:08:27 PM
Actually it is the fact that there is no evidence of any crime by the McCanns that puts them in the clear. If you had bothered to read the Attorney General's Archive dispatch you would have spotted that little fact.
The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 28, 2013, 06:11:21 PM
Quote
failed to prove their innocence.
of dear dear dear dear dear.
What a strange world some people live in
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 28, 2013, 06:23:09 PM
The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?
Your understanding of law is pitiful. It is not the role of anyone to prove their own innocence. Perhaps you should get a basic primer and do a bit of studying?
I wasn't aware that the AG had stated that the McCanns were liars. Please offer us the quotation that shows this.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 28, 2013, 06:40:00 PM
Cite for the AG saying that the McCanns or Tapas had lied please.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 28, 2013, 07:04:44 PM
From the AG archiving dispatch :
'This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.'
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 28, 2013, 08:50:27 PM
watch my lips very very carefully - people do not have to prove their innocence.
(and I don't care who says they have to - it is wrong)
Not my words I'm afraid but the words of the most learned judicial figure in Portugal and a man who's opinion you seem to set great store by, but only when it suits of course.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 28, 2013, 09:15:13 PM
'This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.'
Did the McCanns say they checked as regularly every evening as they said with the time line?
It is also dependent on the suggestion that Mrs Fenn heard Madeleine on the 1st, not another child.
It also seems to be a poor translation omitting conditionals that are there in the original.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 28, 2013, 09:29:36 PM
watch my lips very very carefully - people do not have to prove their innocence.
(and I don't care who says they have to - it is wrong)
Not my words I'm afraid but the words of the most learned judicial figure in Portugal and a man who's opinion you seem to set great store by, but only when it suits of course.
just for you faith http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1660.0
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 28, 2013, 09:52:56 PM
'This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.'
Did the McCanns say they checked as regularly every evening as they said with the time line?
It is also dependent on the suggestion that Mrs Fenn heard Madeleine on the 1st, not another child.
It also seems to be a poor translation omitting conditionals that are there in the original.
Care to give us a better translation which makes things clearer then debunker ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 28, 2013, 09:53:51 PM
watch my lips very very carefully - people do not have to prove their innocence.
(and I don't care who says they have to - it is wrong)
Not my words I'm afraid but the words of the most learned judicial figure in Portugal and a man who's opinion you seem to set great store by, but only when it suits of course.
just for you faith http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1660.0
Your point ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 28, 2013, 10:05:15 PM
Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 28, 2013, 10:09:32 PM
It is DCI. 195 investigative opportunities and a year later still no nearer to finding Madeleine but hey, never mind, she may be alive so that puts the McCanns in the clear eh !
Do people ever tire of reading the same old bullshit from the Met? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: John on May 28, 2013, 10:24:56 PM
'This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.'
An excellent quote faithlilly. That does indeed reflect the opinion by the Attorney General to the effect that the tapas-9 lied. I wonder were they warned that the Portuguese might take things further and prosecute them for child neglect? 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 28, 2013, 10:26:37 PM
It is DCI. 195 investigative opportunities and a year later still no nearer to finding Madeleine but hey, never mind, she may be alive so that puts the McCanns in the clear eh !
Do people ever tire of reading the same old bullshit from the Met? @)(++(*
Yes
redwood has to back that up and it better not be psychics
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: John on May 28, 2013, 10:29:37 PM
It is DCI. 195 investigative opportunities and a year later still no nearer to finding Madeleine but hey, never mind, she may be alive so that puts the McCanns in the clear eh !
Do people ever tire of reading the same old bullshit from the Met? @)(++(*
Yes
redwood has to back that up and it better not be psychics
It is my experience of the police that they either blunder into a detection or someone somewhere grasses someone up. People must realise that the police are not the golden lads they assume them to be.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 28, 2013, 10:42:34 PM
'This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.'
An excellent quote faithlilly. That does indeed reflect the opinion by the Attorney General to the effect that the tapas-9 lied. I wonder were they warned that the Portuguese might take things further and prosecute them for child neglect? 8-)(--)
Where did you get that from faith? Have found it thankyou
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 28, 2013, 10:45:44 PM
That's what i noticed too Martha, but I cant find the wretched quote now.
"Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them".
So, in short, they checked on the children but not as often as they later claimed. What is confusing or contradictory about that ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 28, 2013, 11:27:25 PM
That's what i noticed too Martha, but I cant find the wretched quote now.
"Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them".
There was more than that but I cant find it.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 28, 2013, 11:59:58 PM
Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol
And that is your problem. I agree that the AG doubted the McCann's version of events, the original does not say that they lied!
Care to provide the translation you claim verifies that because that they lied is exactly what the quote already posted says ?
The quote is an inaccurate translation. Check the original in the files.
I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 12:03:11 AM
That's what i noticed too Martha, but I cant find the wretched quote now.
"Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them".
So, in short, they checked on the children but not as often as they later claimed. What is confusing or contradictory about that ?
Where does the AG say that specifically? in fact, where does he use the word "lied" in his report?
What do you think ' [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did' means other than that they lied ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 12:06:13 AM
can we just get one thing clear. Given the 30 minute checks claimed, how many checks do you think there should have been?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2013, 12:11:05 AM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 12:22:43 AM
can we just get one thing clear. Given the 30 minute checks claimed, how many checks do you think there should have been?
Doing this from memory. Pls correct me if I am wrong
8.30 Left to go for meal 9.00 Gerry checked 9,30 Matt checked 10.00 Kate checked but found Madeleine gone
So what could be clearer than that?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: John on May 29, 2013, 12:24:22 AM
Matt checked twice Sadie. Once outside the shutters at 9pm just before Gerry checked and then by going into the apartment at 9.35pm. Sorry if the times are askew, I am not in my office tonight where I have all the data.
Remember Kate said she was doing the check by the hour and when she was going to go Matt got up and said he would do it and that was at 9.35pm precisely. Gerry went after Matt came back a few minutes later.
Kate seemed to have been more on the ball with her check timings of 9pm and 10pm whereas Gerry's checks were haphazard.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 12:29:09 AM
OK so its better than that. Thanks John
Thousands of poeople the world over have used checking sstems at hotels etc where the staff check every half hour. Didn't Butlins do it? I never went there but I think I heard they did.
No-one is saying it is ideal, but a damned sight better to do it yourselves than have staff that you dont know and who might not care , do it for you.
Imo
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: John on May 29, 2013, 12:35:17 AM
Wasn't it the Paynes who had the wireless baby intercom? That was the best idea as at least then they could react to any out of the ordinary movement in the child's bedroom or crying etc. I wonder why the other two family's didn't get one, its not as if they are expensive? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 12:51:03 AM
Didn't Red put up a post that showed that they do video ones now. Even better if they work ok. You would have to leave an infra red light on tho, or at least some light. Not all kids will sleep with lights on.
We have a bird box withn camera and infra red lighting. It was given to us by our daughter over 2 years ago and we have just watched the nest being built, a clutch of 12 eggs being laid, ten of them hatching .... and it has all been absolutely wonderful until today when we found that the already diminished number had reduced from 5 to 2. Three dead blue tits lying alongside two live birds. THe mother is worried and perplexed and is sitting on the dead birds trying to warm them up. The other two will die tomorrow almost certainly. They were only a few days from flying
It happened the first year too, but last year they were mainly successful.
The long and short of this ramble is that the picture aint great but it is good enough. Could be the way forward when dining out near sleeping children
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: gilet on May 29, 2013, 01:01:44 AM
'This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.'
An excellent quote faithlilly. That does indeed reflect the opinion by the Attorney General to the effect that the tapas-9 lied. I wonder were they warned that the Portuguese might take things further and prosecute them for child neglect? 8-)(--)
Highly unlikely as the AG goes on to explain that this is the one charge (abandonment in Portuguese terms) that was specifically excluded from consideration.
I find this consideration that this so-called lying (never specified in those terms in the report) was of importance because it is followed with the very clear statement that there was no evidence of any crime against the McCanns.
It was also followed by very clear permission for their departure from Portugal. Had there been real concern surely the Portuguese would have refused that permission and continued to question the McCanns.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2013, 01:02:21 AM
Thousands of poeople the world over have used checking sstems at hotels etc where the staff check every half hour. Didn't Butlins do it? I never went there but I think I heard they did.
No-one is saying it is ideal, but a damned sight better to do it yourselves than have staff that you dont know and who might not care , do it for you.
Imo
Yes Sadie, Butlins did have a Baby Listening service. A 'nanny' rode around on a bike and if she heard a baby crying she reported it and it was announced over the tannoy system i.e. ''Baby crying in Chalet no. 56' . No mobile phones in those days. That was decades ago and the baby listening service is still offered today at holiday resorts - and that can only be because there is a demand for it. I have to say that I am far more shocked at people who sign up for this service nowadays - knowing what happened to Madeleine - than I ever was at the McCann's for mirroring the same service themselves.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 06:41:35 AM
Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol
And that is your problem. I agree that the AG doubted the McCann's version of events, the original does not say that they lied!
Care to provide the translation you claim verifies that because that they lied is exactly what the quote already posted says ?
The quote is an inaccurate translation. Check the original in the files.
I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?
Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 06:42:25 AM
That's what i noticed too Martha, but I cant find the wretched quote now.
"Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them".
Read the original Portuguese. So, in short, they checked on the children but not as often as they later claimed. What is confusing or contradictory about that ?
Where does the AG say that specifically? in fact, where does he use the word "lied" in his report?
What do you think ' [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did' means other than that they lied ?
Read the original Portuguese.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 06:43:53 AM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 29, 2013, 07:37:45 AM
Yes, I'd be interested to see where the AG supposedly mentioned the word "lying", I just quickly checked the original version & I can't see it either. IMO, it's carefully worded to AVOID accusing them of lying. He is questioning the regularity of the checks by the group, at the same time asserting that checks did take place but & infers that they probably weren't as frequent as stated (based, seemingly, solely on the statement by Mrs. Fenn).
Witness statements can vary & even be incorrect for other reasons than lying, people get mixed up, their idea of time passed between one event & another can be distorted etc.
It's up to the reader to speculate what the AG "meant", nothing else.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2013, 08:51:17 AM
I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?
Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!
You are a master of spin nurse debunker. No official document will use the word 'lied' but the inference is most certainly there. The Attorney Generals report makes very clear that the tapas 9 parents were untruthful » ergo THEY LIED!!!!
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 29, 2013, 09:32:09 AM
No, the original does not imply that, IMO.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 09:37:56 AM
I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?
Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!
You are a master of spin nurse debunker. No official document will use the word 'lied' but the inference is most certainly there. The Attorney Generals report makes very clear that the tapas 9 parents were untruthful » ergo THEY LIED!!!!
Being untruthful is NOT lying. You may be untruthful by accident or ignorance. Lying required intention to deceive. This is not what the AG report says.
If some one says X lied and merely shows they were untruthful through non deceptive intent, then they have told an untruth themselves- which may be a lie!
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 09:40:07 AM
That's what i noticed too Martha, but I cant find the wretched quote now.
"Reinforcing what was said is also the fact that despite leaving their daughter alone with her siblings in the apartment during more or less dilated moments, it is certain that in any case they checked on them".
So, in short, they checked on the children but not as often as they later claimed. What is confusing or contradictory about that ?
Where does the AG say that specifically? in fact, where does he use the word "lied" in his report?
What do you think ' [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did' means other than that they lied ?
It could mean that they deliberately lied, equally it could mean that they got their facts wrong and were mistaken. He doesn't specify which.
I will not do a translation as it would be guesswork using Spanish, but the understanding I get from the sentence when seen in context with the two surrounding paragraphs is that there is a conflict between evidence from the McCanns and evidence from other people. Context and exact world used are important.
What is very clear from the Portuguese is that the AG did not accuse the McCanns of lying.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 10:57:49 AM
Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol
And that is your problem. I agree that the AG doubted the McCann's version of events, the original does not say that they lied!
Care to provide the translation you claim verifies that because that they lied is exactly what the quote already posted says ?
The quote is an inaccurate translation. Check the original in the files.
I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?
Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!
You really are the limit debunker ! You don't speak Portuguese but your smattering of Spanish and an internet translator qualifies you to obtain a more accurate translation than at least three Portuguese translators, is that what you are trying to tell us ?
If nothing else, for entertainment value you are absolutely priceless. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 11:00:21 AM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Benice on May 29, 2013, 11:07:04 AM
If I said that in the last week I always had my mid morning cup of coffee at 11 am but the reality was that on Tuesday I had it at 11.30am would that make me a liar?
If your name was McCann - then sadly 'yes' in the eyes of some sceptics.
No way could any of that group have been expected to remember not only the precise times they checked on their children every evening of every day of that week - but also the exact times the others checked! That's simply not possible.
Most of their references to times are preceded with the words 'around' or 'about' - denoting that they were giving their 'best' recollections. What they couldn't guarantee was that the times they gave were accurate down to the last second. There's nothing sinister in that. It's perfectly normal human behaviour.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 11:13:05 AM
Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol
And that is your problem. I agree that the AG doubted the McCann's version of events, the original does not say that they lied!
Care to provide the translation you claim verifies that because that they lied is exactly what the quote already posted says ?
The quote is an inaccurate translation. Check the original in the files.
I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?
Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!
You really are the limit debunker ! You don't speak Portuguese but your smattering of Spanish and an internet translator qualifies you to obtain a more accurate translation than at least three Portuguese translators, is that what you are trying to tell us ?
If nothing else, for entertainment value you are absolutely priceless. @)(++(*
Look at the original and find the word 'lie' in Portuguese. It is well known that all the rtanlators were allied with the [ censored word ]s. They likely put a spin on any tranlstion that needs to be looked at skeptically.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 11:15:32 AM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
Your post above:
"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 11:21:01 AM
Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol
And that is your problem. I agree that the AG doubted the McCann's version of events, the original does not say that they lied!
Care to provide the translation you claim verifies that because that they lied is exactly what the quote already posted says ?
The quote is an inaccurate translation. Check the original in the files.
I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?
Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!
You really are the limit debunker ! You don't speak Portuguese but your smattering of Spanish and an internet translator qualifies you to obtain a more accurate translation than at least three Portuguese translators, is that what you are trying to tell us ?
If nothing else, for entertainment value you are absolutely priceless. @)(++(*
Look at the original and find the word 'lie' in Portuguese. It is well known that all the rtanlators were allied with the [ censored word ]s. They likely put a spin on any tranlstion that needs to be looked at skeptically.
Angelo is hilarious too. Talk about devils advocate
He is enjoying being a stirrer 8(>((
I'm right, am I not Angelo? 8(0(*
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 11:27:00 AM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
Your post above:
"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"
So have I claimed the word 'lied' was used in the dispatch ? The AG's words, however, carry the same meaning.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 29, 2013, 11:31:07 AM
No, the AG said the checks weren't as regular as stated, that does not mean that he says they "lied". Nobody is accusing Mrs. Fenn of "lying" for example, but most people know it's impossible to determine exactly where a sound originates from in apartment blocks like those the McCann stayed in while in PDL.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 11:34:36 AM
Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol
And that is your problem. I agree that the AG doubted the McCann's version of events, the original does not say that they lied!
Care to provide the translation you claim verifies that because that they lied is exactly what the quote already posted says ?
The quote is an inaccurate translation. Check the original in the files.
I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?
Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!
You really are the limit debunker ! You don't speak Portuguese but your smattering of Spanish and an internet translator qualifies you to obtain a more accurate translation than at least three Portuguese translators, is that what you are trying to tell us ?
If nothing else, for entertainment value you are absolutely priceless. @)(++(*
Look at the original and find the word 'lie' in Portuguese. It is well known that all the rtanlators were allied with the [ censored word ]s. They likely put a spin on any tranlstion that needs to be looked at skeptically.
If you dispute the accuracy of the translations carried out by both the forum translators and my friends, you must have an alternative, accurate translation which you are comparing the disputed translations against. Do you have that ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 11:48:04 AM
No, the AG said the checks weren't as regular as stated, that does not mean that he says they "lied". Nobody is accusing Mrs. Fenn of "lying" for example, but most people know it's impossible to determine exactly where a sound originates from in apartment blocks like those the McCann stayed in while in PDL.
This is what the AG says about Mrs Fenn :
'Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did'
So it is Mrs Fenn's evidence that lead the AG to believe that the McCanns were being less than truthful about the regularity of their checks. They say they checked every half an hour, Mrs Fenn, who the AG seems to find a very credible witness, suggests on the night of the 1st of May the children were not checked for over an hour. So for those who suggest that the AG did not imply that the McCanns lied are simply wrong. He most certainly did and the weight he bestows on Mrs Fenn's evidence clearly shows this.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: ferryman on May 29, 2013, 11:52:52 AM
No, the AG said the checks weren't as regular as stated, that does not mean that he says they "lied". Nobody is accusing Mrs. Fenn of "lying" for example, but most people know it's impossible to determine exactly where a sound originates from in apartment blocks like those the McCann stayed in while in PDL.
This is what the AG says about Mrs Fenn :
'Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did'
So it is Mrs Fenn's evidence that lead the AG to believe that the McCanns were being less than truthful about the regularity of their checks. They say they checked every half an hour, Mrs Fenn, who the AG seems to find a very credible witness, suggests on the night of the 1st of May the children were not checked for over an hour. So for those who suggest that the AG did not imply that the McCanns lied are simply wrong. He most certainly did and the weight he bestows on Mrs Fenn's evidence clearly shows this.
While the prosecutors were fundamentally sound, they are not beyond criticism.
I would say the most serious criticism that could made of them is the (undue) importance they attached to the, apparent, statement of Mrs Fenn ...
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 29, 2013, 11:53:59 AM
More assumptions & speculation. The Truth is that the AG did not SAY the McCann or anyone in their group lied, not in the original Portuguese version & not in any of the translation. Nobody knows what he MEANT, but we do know what he SAID.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 29, 2013, 11:57:21 AM
No, the AG said the checks weren't as regular as stated, that does not mean that he says they "lied". Nobody is accusing Mrs. Fenn of "lying" for example, but most people know it's impossible to determine exactly where a sound originates from in apartment blocks like those the McCann stayed in while in PDL.
This is what the AG says about Mrs Fenn :
'Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did'
So it is Mrs Fenn's evidence that lead the AG to believe that the McCanns were being less than truthful about the regularity of their checks. They say they checked every half an hour, Mrs Fenn, who the AG seems to find a very credible witness, suggests on the night of the 1st of May the children were not checked for over an hour. So for those who suggest that the AG did not imply that the McCanns lied are simply wrong. He most certainly did and the weight he bestows on Mrs Fenn's evidence clearly shows this.
While the prosecutors were fundamentally sound, they are not beyond criticism.
I would say the most serious criticism that could made of them is the (undue) importance they attached to the, apparent, statement of Mrs Fenn ...
Yes, and without making any checks whatsoever to establish whether it was even possible for her to pinpoint exact locations where sounds were coming from.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 11:59:43 AM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
Your post above:
"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"
So have I claimed the word 'lied' was used in the dispatch ? The AG's words, however, carry the same meaning.
CIte for an accurate translation. If he did not use the word 'lie', what word did he use. The truth of the matter is that you do not know, so assume the worst for the McCanns as is your bias and the bias of the translators- this comes up time and again!.
If you want to insist that the AG said the McCanns lied (or anything close to it), please produce the original document.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 12:00:25 PM
Faithlilly, its a FACT the PP put doubt n thr Mccans version of ecents, anythng else is nonsense....funny how people cherry pick lol
And that is your problem. I agree that the AG doubted the McCann's version of events, the original does not say that they lied!
Care to provide the translation you claim verifies that because that they lied is exactly what the quote already posted says ?
The quote is an inaccurate translation. Check the original in the files.
I have, with several Portuguese friends, and the translation is perfectly accurate. Can you point out specifically what you feel has been translated incorrectly ?
Please find the word 'lied' in the Portuguese. The statement is far more tempered than the translation offered. I do not speak Portuguese but do have Spanish. In my translation and that of Bing translator it shows up as quite a different assertion than lying!
You really are the limit debunker ! You don't speak Portuguese but your smattering of Spanish and an internet translator qualifies you to obtain a more accurate translation than at least three Portuguese translators, is that what you are trying to tell us ?
If nothing else, for entertainment value you are absolutely priceless. @)(++(*
Look at the original and find the word 'lie' in Portuguese. It is well known that all the rtanlators were allied with the [ censored word ]s. They likely put a spin on any tranlstion that needs to be looked at skeptically.
If you dispute the accuracy of the translations carried out by both the forum translators and my friends, you must have an alternative, accurate translation which you are comparing the disputed translations against. Do you have that ?
That does not follow logically.
Please produce the original Portuguese.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 12:01:14 PM
No, the AG said the checks weren't as regular as stated, that does not mean that he says they "lied". Nobody is accusing Mrs. Fenn of "lying" for example, but most people know it's impossible to determine exactly where a sound originates from in apartment blocks like those the McCann stayed in while in PDL.
This is what the AG says about Mrs Fenn :
'Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did'
So it is Mrs Fenn's evidence that lead the AG to believe that the McCanns were being less than truthful about the regularity of their checks. They say they checked every half an hour, Mrs Fenn, who the AG seems to find a very credible witness, suggests on the night of the 1st of May the children were not checked for over an hour. So for those who suggest that the AG did not imply that the McCanns lied are simply wrong. He most certainly did and the weight he bestows on Mrs Fenn's evidence clearly shows this.
That is a poor and biased translation. Please produce the original.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 12:02:44 PM
Faithlilly, how do you know the AG meant "they lied" and not "they were mistaken"? Do you know the difference between lying and giving wrong information based on inaccurate recall?
Are you really suggesting the McCanns were 'mistaken in their recall' when declaring they had left the children for only 30 minutes when they had actually left them for over an hour ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 12:25:52 PM
Faith, give or take 5 minutes:
8.30 K&G went to the tapas restaurant
9.00 Matt did a listening check 9.05 Gerry not content with a listening check, did his own personal check
9.30 Matt did a visual check, but only saw the twins, assumed Madeleine was there.
10.00 Kate went to check. Madeleine gone!
Better than thousands of people who rely on Hotel staff to do a listening check every half hour. Far better
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2013, 12:26:41 PM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
The whole reason the McCanns were accused and made arguidos was because they weren't believed. It doesn't take much wit to work out therefore that as far as the PJ was concerned they lied.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 12:30:16 PM
deleted
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 12:31:59 PM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
The whole reason the McCanns were accused and made arguidos was because they weren't believed. It doesn't take much wit to work out therefore that as far as the PJ was concerned they lied.
As far as I am concerned you are a wind up merchant.
You may or may not be.
The McCanns may or may not be liars.
The views of the PJ do not determine that question.
Therefore to state that the AG stated that they lied is still without foundation.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: ferryman on May 29, 2013, 12:39:20 PM
In her pre-arguida interview, Kate was asked about Mrs Fenn's apparent account and replied thus:
When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.
And in his arguido interview, Gerry says much the same, except with slight variation you might expect from witnesses who are testifying honestly ...
--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2013, 01:00:10 PM
'Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did'
So it is Mrs Fenn's evidence that lead the AG to believe that the McCanns were being less than truthful about the regularity of their checks. They say they checked every half an hour, Mrs Fenn, who the AG seems to find a very credible witness, suggests on the night of the 1st of May the children were not checked for over an hour. So for those who suggest that the AG did not imply that the McCanns lied are simply wrong. He most certainly did and the weight he bestows on Mrs Fenn's evidence clearly shows this.
They lied through their teeth because they were shit scared that the PT would do them for child neglect.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2013, 01:21:10 PM
In her pre-arguida interview, Kate was asked about Mrs Fenn's apparent account and replied thus:
When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.
And in his arguido interview, Gerry says much the same, except with slight variation you might expect from witnesses who are testifying honestly ...
--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.
That's even worse. So now you are saying that not only did one of the twins cry for an extended period but neither Kate or Gerry could be bothered attending to her. If Mrs Fenn could hear her and was concerned enough to phone her friend for advice then the McCanns most certainly heard her. I find this revelation appalling.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 01:23:17 PM
'Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did'
So it is Mrs Fenn's evidence that lead the AG to believe that the McCanns were being less than truthful about the regularity of their checks. They say they checked every half an hour, Mrs Fenn, who the AG seems to find a very credible witness, suggests on the night of the 1st of May the children were not checked for over an hour. So for those who suggest that the AG did not imply that the McCanns lied are simply wrong. He most certainly did and the weight he bestows on Mrs Fenn's evidence clearly shows this.
They lied through their teeth because they were shit scared that the PT would do them for child neglect.
In your humble (and defamatory) opinion. That is more libelous than Bercows tweet.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 29, 2013, 01:24:45 PM
Yes, makes sense, the first thing you'd do if you want to avoid being charged with child neglect, is to immediately tell the police that you did in fact leave your children alone & only checked on them periodically.
>@@(*&)
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: DCI on May 29, 2013, 01:39:04 PM
That's even worse. So now you are saying that not only did one of the twins cry for an extended period but neither Kate or Gerry could be bothered attending to her. If Mrs Fenn could hear her and was concerned enough to phone her friend for advice then the McCanns most certainly heard her. I find this revelation appalling.
I find it appalling, to think a woman of Mrs Fenn's age, did nothing about it. Only phoned a friend. She didn't know who was in 5A, but she supposedly knew it was Madeleine crying, utter BS! IMO, Mrs Fenn did not make that statement, just as she said, in the news interview.
Phone a friend, 50/50, ask the audience.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Carana on May 29, 2013, 01:40:28 PM
In her pre-arguida interview, Kate was asked about Mrs Fenn's apparent account and replied thus:
When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.
And in his arguido interview, Gerry says much the same, except with slight variation you might expect from witnesses who are testifying honestly ...
--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.
That's even worse. So now you are saying that not only did one of the twins cry for an extended period but neither Kate or Gerry could be bothered attending to her. If Mrs Fenn could hear her and was concerned enough to phone her friend for advice then the McCanns most certainly heard her. I find this revelation appalling.
I think that there is a likely translation issue in that sentence.
The original seems to say that he didn't know whether it was the witness (Gerry) or Kate who went to soothe the child.
I.e., not if either had bothered.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 29, 2013, 01:56:16 PM
Yes, there's a WHO missing in the translation, but not to worry, I'm sure they can take the afternoon off & learn enough Portuguese to do their own translations. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 01:58:35 PM
Before we go too far accusing the Mccanns, can we examine the photo below?
Apartment A is the Mccann apartment Apartment B is the Oldfield apartrment Apartment H is the Payne apartment Therefore three apartments with young children
And apartment G is the Fenn apartment (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Bal.png)
There are several questions that come to mind for me:
1) Just where does apartment G finish and apartment H start? Could it be that the little window is part of Mrs Fenns apartment. Was she also above the Oldfields?
2) Her apartment is adjacent to the Payne apartment.
3) She was old. Old people are often hard of hearing ... and have one ear better than the other. I personally cannot detect the direction sound comes from any more. I think she was about the same age as I am.
So just where did she hear the sound coming from?
The Mccanns or Oldfields below, or the Paynes to the side ?
Seems to me that had it been Madeleine crying, she would have woken the others and there would have been three wailing voices ....
So ....?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2013, 02:25:00 PM
In her pre-arguida interview, Kate was asked about Mrs Fenn's apparent account and replied thus:
When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.
And in his arguido interview, Gerry says much the same, except with slight variation you might expect from witnesses who are testifying honestly ...
--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.
That's even worse. So now you are saying that not only did one of the twins cry for an extended period but neither Kate or Gerry could be bothered attending to her. If Mrs Fenn could hear her and was concerned enough to phone her friend for advice then the McCanns most certainly heard her. I find this revelation appalling.
I think that there is a likely translation issue in that sentence.
The original seems to say that he didn't know whether it was the witness (Gerry) or Kate who went to soothe the child.
I.e., not if either had bothered.
Again personal experience.
My son was a gawd awful sleeper. I was on the edge of a breakdown thru sleepless nights and constant demands on me. When he hadn't settled to a nights sleep by the age of about 6, and I was becoming a gibbering mass, we were referred to a consultant. The first thing that we were told was to ignore the crying. That he was crying just for attention. I tried but couldn't stand it after a few minutes
A neighbour of ours had a lesser problem, with a baby son that cried for attention during the day. Again the consultants told her to put the baby in a pram in the back garden then go in the house shutting all the windows and ignore it. Break him of his demanding way.
Really I do not think that people who have not experienced this problem should be judgemental over a few minutes crying. If it carries on for a long time, then yes find out what the matter is.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2013, 03:19:27 PM
In her pre-arguida interview, Kate was asked about Mrs Fenn's apparent account and replied thus:
When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.
And in his arguido interview, Gerry says much the same, except with slight variation you might expect from witnesses who are testifying honestly ...
--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.
That's even worse. So now you are saying that not only did one of the twins cry for an extended period but neither Kate or Gerry could be bothered attending to her. If Mrs Fenn could hear her and was concerned enough to phone her friend for advice then the McCanns most certainly heard her. I find this revelation appalling.
I think that there is a likely translation issue in that sentence.
The original seems to say that he didn't know whether it was the witness (Gerry) or Kate who went to soothe the child.
I.e., not if either had bothered.
You will be telling me next that there is a translation problem with Mrs Fenn too and she was English. She knew what she heard and she also knew when the patio door beneath her apartment opened and closed and the crying stopped. Over an hour she said and was concerned enough to telephone her friend for advice as to what to do?? As a parent I find this appalling behaviour by the parents of young children and what makes it worse is that they are both qualified medical doctors who should have know better.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 03:26:55 PM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
Your post above:
"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"
So have I claimed the word 'lied' was used in the dispatch ? The AG's words, however, carry the same meaning.
CIte for an accurate translation. If he did not use the word 'lie', what word did he use. The truth of the matter is that you do not know, so assume the worst for the McCanns as is your bias and the bias of the translators- this comes up time and again!.
If you want to insist that the AG said the McCanns lied (or anything close to it), please produce the original document.
And producing the original document would move the debate forward how ? You can't speak Portuguese so unless you are going bring a reputable, human, translator, acceptable to both sides, to translate it, what would be the point ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 03:29:29 PM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
Your post above:
"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"
So have I claimed the word 'lied' was used in the dispatch ? The AG's words, however, carry the same meaning.
CIte for an accurate translation. If he did not use the word 'lie', what word did he use. The truth of the matter is that you do not know, so assume the worst for the McCanns as is your bias and the bias of the translators- this comes up time and again!.
If you want to insist that the AG said the McCanns lied (or anything close to it), please produce the original document.
And producing the original document would move the debate forward how ? You can't speak Portuguese so unless you are going bring a reputable, human, translator, acceptable to both sides, to translate it, what would be the point ?
It would enable people to see that the Portuguese word for lying is not in the sentence.
If you do insist that the AJ called the McCanns liars, provide the information please. Else we shall have to conclude that you are lying (or mistaken!)
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 03:33:18 PM
Faithlilly, how do you know the AG meant "they lied" and not "they were mistaken"? Do you know the difference between lying and giving wrong information based on inaccurate recall?
Are you really suggesting the McCanns were 'mistaken in their recall' when declaring they had left the children for only 30 minutes when they had actually left them for over an hour ?
If they habitually checked every half-hour throughout the week and said so to the police, but on one or two occasions the gap between checks was actually longer does that make them liars? I know it does in your book, but in the eyes of the PT AG I suspect it does not.
You suspect ? The AG's opinion is clear, categorical and not changed by your 'suspicions'.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 03:37:43 PM
Faithlilly, how do you know the AG meant "they lied" and not "they were mistaken"? Do you know the difference between lying and giving wrong information based on inaccurate recall?
Are you really suggesting the McCanns were 'mistaken in their recall' when declaring they had left the children for only 30 minutes when they had actually left them for over an hour ?
If they habitually checked every half-hour throughout the week and said so to the police, but on one or two occasions the gap between checks was actually longer does that make them liars? I know it does in your book, but in the eyes of the PT AG I suspect it does not.
You suspect ? The AG's opinion is clear, categorical and not changed by your 'suspicions'.
Perhaps you can produce the original report? No, I thought not!
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: DCI on May 29, 2013, 03:41:28 PM
You will be telling me next that there is a translation problem with Mrs Fenn too and she was English. She knew what she heard and she also knew when the patio door beneath her apartment opened and closed and the crying stopped. Over an hour she said and was concerned enough to telephone her friend for advice as to what to do?? As a parent I find this appalling behaviour by the parents of young children and what makes it worse is that they are both qualified medical doctors who should have know better.
Well something is not right, either the translation is wrong, or Mrs Fenn was lying?
Yes, Mrs Fenn was English, but didn't speak or read the Portuguese language. It seems she knew what she heard, but didn't know what she said in her statement. The statement she contradicted the day after, when speaking on camera. So which statement do you believe, Angelo?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Angelo222 on May 29, 2013, 03:44:36 PM
The AG inferred that they were economical with the truth as to how the children were monitored and other matters and in English this translates as they lied. Simple logic easily understood.
If you start picking holes in statements you might as well challenge the integrity of the entire police investigation because where does it end??
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 03:49:37 PM
The AG inferred that they were economical with the truth as to how the children were monitored and other matters and in English this translates as they lied. Simple logic easily understood.
Inferring that they were economical with the truth is not proof that he said that they were lying.
Since no-one else can be bothered, I will post the original
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
Your post above:
"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"
So have I claimed the word 'lied' was used in the dispatch ? The AG's words, however, carry the same meaning.
CIte for an accurate translation. If he did not use the word 'lie', what word did he use. The truth of the matter is that you do not know, so assume the worst for the McCanns as is your bias and the bias of the translators- this comes up time and again!.
If you want to insist that the AG said the McCanns lied (or anything close to it), please produce the original document.
And producing the original document would move the debate forward how ? You can't speak Portuguese so unless you are going bring a reputable, human, translator, acceptable to both sides, to translate it, what would be the point ?
It would enable people to see that the Portuguese word for lying is not in the sentence.
If you do insist that the AJ called the McCanns liars, provide the information please. Else we shall have to conclude that you are lying (or mistaken!)
We have no been around the houses quite enough debunker so for clarification the AG stated the McCanns were untruthful regarding the checking of their children, therefore they lied. While he was much to polite to be quite so pointed that is what his words amounted to. That, because of senility or simple obtuseness, you refuse to take that on board is your problem and yours alone.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 03:56:13 PM
The AG inferred that they were economical with the truth as to how the children were monitored and other matters and in English this translates as they lied. Simple logic easily understood.
Inferring that they were economical with the truth is not proof that he said that they were lying.
Since no-one else can be bothered, I will post the original
Second full paragraph, but needs to be read in context with the paragraphs around it.
Please post your translation debunker so we can all see clearly the point you are trying to make.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: John on May 29, 2013, 04:21:54 PM
The translation as far as I can establish certainly appears to state that the parents were not doing their checks as claimed by them.
Translated verbatim it states...
"This denotes that the parents were not persistently worried with the children, that they would not make their verification as then stated, before neglected, although not rashly, nor grossly, the duty to guard the same children.
If such duty of care had been observed, on the assumption that it was a kidnapping, as insistently if said and continues to say and is permissible, that is what has happened to their occurrence could have been poisoned."
The Report goes on to state that had the checks been carried out as claimed by the parents then the kidnapping would have been frustrated and could not have occurred.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: ferryman on May 29, 2013, 04:47:52 PM
The prosecutors were generally sound, but didn't get everything right.
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
Your post above:
"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"
So have I claimed the word 'lied' was used in the dispatch ? The AG's words, however, carry the same meaning.
CIte for an accurate translation. If he did not use the word 'lie', what word did he use. The truth of the matter is that you do not know, so assume the worst for the McCanns as is your bias and the bias of the translators- this comes up time and again!.
If you want to insist that the AG said the McCanns lied (or anything close to it), please produce the original document.
And producing the original document would move the debate forward how ? You can't speak Portuguese so unless you are going bring a reputable, human, translator, acceptable to both sides, to translate it, what would be the point ?
It would enable people to see that the Portuguese word for lying is not in the sentence.
If you do insist that the AJ called the McCanns liars, provide the information please. Else we shall have to conclude that you are lying (or mistaken!)
We have no been around the houses quite enough debunker so for clarification the AG stated the McCanns were untruthful regarding the checking of their children, therefore they lied. While he was much to polite to be quite so pointed that is what his words amounted to. That, because of senility or simple obtuseness, you refuse to take that on board is your problem and yours alone.
It is quite possible to be untruthful without telling lies.
If you wish to amend your allegation to the much softer suggestion that tehy may have been in error over the facts, then that is closer to the original.
The AG does not say that they lied.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 04:51:24 PM
The AG inferred that they were economical with the truth as to how the children were monitored and other matters and in English this translates as they lied. Simple logic easily understood.
Inferring that they were economical with the truth is not proof that he said that they were lying.
Since no-one else can be bothered, I will post the original
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
Your post above:
"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"
So have I claimed the word 'lied' was used in the dispatch ? The AG's words, however, carry the same meaning.
CIte for an accurate translation. If he did not use the word 'lie', what word did he use. The truth of the matter is that you do not know, so assume the worst for the McCanns as is your bias and the bias of the translators- this comes up time and again!.
If you want to insist that the AG said the McCanns lied (or anything close to it), please produce the original document.
And producing the original document would move the debate forward how ? You can't speak Portuguese so unless you are going bring a reputable, human, translator, acceptable to both sides, to translate it, what would be the point ?
It would enable people to see that the Portuguese word for lying is not in the sentence.
If you do insist that the AJ called the McCanns liars, provide the information please. Else we shall have to conclude that you are lying (or mistaken!)
We have no been around the houses quite enough debunker so for clarification the AG stated the McCanns were untruthful regarding the checking of their children, therefore they lied. While he was much to polite to be quite so pointed that is what his words amounted to. That, because of senility or simple obtuseness, you refuse to take that on board is your problem and yours alone.
It is quite possible to be untruthful without telling lies.
If you wish to amend your allegation to the much softer suggestion that tehy may have been in error over the facts, then that is closer to the original.
The AG does not say that they lied.
The AG implies that they were knowingly untruthful. That is the difference.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 04:55:22 PM
Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE ?? 8(0(*
No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.
And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.
Your post above:
"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"
So have I claimed the word 'lied' was used in the dispatch ? The AG's words, however, carry the same meaning.
CIte for an accurate translation. If he did not use the word 'lie', what word did he use. The truth of the matter is that you do not know, so assume the worst for the McCanns as is your bias and the bias of the translators- this comes up time and again!.
If you want to insist that the AG said the McCanns lied (or anything close to it), please produce the original document.
And producing the original document would move the debate forward how ? You can't speak Portuguese so unless you are going bring a reputable, human, translator, acceptable to both sides, to translate it, what would be the point ?
It would enable people to see that the Portuguese word for lying is not in the sentence.
If you do insist that the AJ called the McCanns liars, provide the information please. Else we shall have to conclude that you are lying (or mistaken!)
We have no been around the houses quite enough debunker so for clarification the AG stated the McCanns were untruthful regarding the checking of their children, therefore they lied. While he was much to polite to be quite so pointed that is what his words amounted to. That, because of senility or simple obtuseness, you refuse to take that on board is your problem and yours alone.
It is quite possible to be untruthful without telling lies.
If you wish to amend your allegation to the much softer suggestion that tehy may have been in error over the facts, then that is closer to the original.
The AG does not say that they lied.
The AG implies that they were knowingly untruthful. That is the difference.
Does the Portuguese say that?
Changing, slipping and sliding?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: ferryman on May 29, 2013, 04:56:46 PM
It is quite possible to be untruthful without telling lies.
If you wish to amend your allegation to the much softer suggestion that tehy may have been in error over the facts, then that is closer to the original.
The AG does not say that they lied.
The AG implies that they were knowingly untruthful. That is the difference.
The proof is in the facts.
The McCanns and all their friends ran very regular checks on their children.
And I suppose the prosecutors were bound to offer some crumb to the doom-sayers ....
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 04:57:01 PM
The AG inferred that they were economical with the truth as to how the children were monitored and other matters and in English this translates as they lied. Simple logic easily understood.
Inferring that they were economical with the truth is not proof that he said that they were lying.
Since no-one else can be bothered, I will post the original
Second full paragraph, but needs to be read in context with the paragraphs around it.
Please post your translation debunker so we can all see clearly the point you are trying to make.
My Portuguese is not good enough to do a translation, but is good enough to not find the Portuguese word for 'lies'.
No one has claimed the AG used the word 'lies'. What he said was that they declared something they knew to be wrong ie they lied.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: John on May 29, 2013, 05:00:58 PM
You are not interpreting the document properly Debunker. It is not necessary to have the word 'lie' in the Report as there are many other ways to represent the same understanding.
The Attorney General clearly challenges the evidence of the parents and calls into question their timings which if correct would not have allowed any abduction to take place.
As my specialism is Spanish maybe someone with Portuguese would like to have a go?
Tal denota que os país nao estavam persistentemente preocupados com os filhos, que nao iam fazer a sua verificacao como depois declararam efectuar, antes negligenciaram, embora nao temeraria, nem grosseiramente, o dever de guarda dos mesmos filhos.
Se tal dever de guarda tivesse sido observado, na hipotese de se ter tratado de um rapto, como insistentemente se referiu e continua a referir e e admissivel que tenha acontecido, a sua ocorrencia poderia ter sido eventualmente inviabilizada.
The McCanns and all their friends ran very regular checks on their children.
And I suppose the prosecutors were bound to offer some crumb to the doom-sayers ....
Some crumb ? The prosecutor implied the statement of Mrs Fenn proves that the McCanns were, to put it charitably, knowingly untruthful when declaring that they checked on their children every half hour. That is not some crumb, that is a stonebaked, hand shaped premium sourdough loaf.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: John on May 29, 2013, 05:04:45 PM
Would posters please shorten the quote history in their posts. Thank you.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 05:16:40 PM
You are not interpreting the document properly Debunker. It is not necessary to have the word 'lie' in the Report as there are many other ways to represent the same understanding.
The Attorney General clearly challenges the evidence of the parents and calls into question their timings which if correct would not have allowed any abduction to take place.
As my specialism is Spanish maybe someone with Portuguese would like to have a go?
Tal denota que os país nao estavam persistentemente preocupados com os filhos, que nao iam fazer a sua verificacao como depois declararam efectuar, antes negligenciaram, embora nao temeraria, nem grosseiramente, o dever de guarda dos mesmos filhos.
Se tal dever de guarda tivesse sido observado, na hipotese de se ter tratado de um rapto, como insistentemente se referiu e continua a referir e e admissivel que tenha acontecido, a sua ocorrencia poderia ter sido eventualmente inviabilizada.
The AG inferred that they were economical with the truth as to how the children were monitored and other matters and in English this translates as they lied. Simple logic easily understood.
Inferring that they were economical with the truth is not proof that he said that they were lying.
Since no-one else can be bothered, I will post the original
You are not interpreting the document properly Debunker. It is not necessary to have the word 'lie' in the Report as there are many other ways to represent the same understanding.
The Attorney General clearly challenges the evidence of the parents and calls into question their timings which if correct would not have allowed any abduction to take place.
As my specialism is Spanish maybe someone with Portuguese would like to have a go?
Tal denota que os país nao estavam persistentemente preocupados com os filhos, que nao iam fazer a sua verificacao como depois declararam efectuar, antes negligenciaram, embora nao temeraria, nem grosseiramente, o dever de guarda dos mesmos filhos.
Se tal dever de guarda tivesse sido observado, na hipotese de se ter tratado de um rapto, como insistentemente se referiu e continua a referir e e admissivel que tenha acontecido, a sua ocorrencia poderia ter sido eventualmente inviabilizada.
Would I be right in assuming that the things the AG didn't get right are the ones that paint the McCanns in a bad light ?
Not necessarily. I pointed out earlier that he'd got mixed up about when Matt and Russ went together to check (and thus when Jane actually went to replace Russ).
That mistake doesn't cast anyone in a bad light... he just got muddled up.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: DCI on May 29, 2013, 05:51:31 PM
Would I be right in assuming that the things the AG didn't get right are the ones that paint the McCanns in a bad light ?
Not necessarily. I pointed out earlier that he'd got mixed up about when Matt and Russ went together to check (and thus when Jane actually went to replace Russ).
That mistake doesn't cast anyone in a bad light... he just got muddled up.
Thats no excuse, Carana, for a supposed professional. How many other times did he get muddled up? 8-)(--)
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 05:59:53 PM
@ debunker
Please don't play semantics with me.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 06:02:56 PM
You are not interpreting the document properly Debunker. It is not necessary to have the word 'lie' in the Report as there are many other ways to represent the same understanding.
The Attorney General clearly challenges the evidence of the parents and calls into question their timings which if correct would not have allowed any abduction to take place.
As my specialism is Spanish maybe someone with Portuguese would like to have a go?
Tal denota que os país nao estavam persistentemente preocupados com os filhos, que nao iam fazer a sua verificacao como depois declararam efectuar, antes negligenciaram, embora nao temeraria, nem grosseiramente, o dever de guarda dos mesmos filhos.
Se tal dever de guarda tivesse sido observado, na hipotese de se ter tratado de um rapto, como insistentemente se referiu e continua a referir e e admissivel que tenha acontecido, a sua ocorrencia poderia ter sido eventualmente inviabilizada.
John someone fluent in Portuguese has translated it. I posted the translation earlier.
A previous forker fluent in Portuguese translated it.
You have already admitted you do not speak Portuguese so on what basis do you suspect the translation posted is not accurate ? Because you disagree with it ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 29, 2013, 06:07:49 PM
You will be telling me next that there is a translation problem with Mrs Fenn too and she was English. She knew what she heard and she also knew when the patio door beneath her apartment opened and closed and the crying stopped. Over an hour she said and was concerned enough to telephone her friend for advice as to what to do?? As a parent I find this appalling behaviour by the parents of young children and what makes it worse is that they are both qualified medical doctors who should have know better.
Well something is not right, either the translation is wrong, or Mrs Fenn was lying?
Yes, Mrs Fenn was English, but didn't speak or read the Portuguese language. It seems she knew what she heard, but didn't know what she said in her statement. The statement she contradicted the day after, when speaking on camera. So which statement do you believe, Angelo?
She did not contradict anything at all the next day, hard as you wish for this to be true, it will never be, all she said it was rubbish that she had spoken to journalists about it, so, yes, Mrs Fenn was not lying and there was no mistranslation
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 06:32:34 PM
You are not interpreting the document properly Debunker. It is not necessary to have the word 'lie' in the Report as there are many other ways to represent the same understanding.
The Attorney General clearly challenges the evidence of the parents and calls into question their timings which if correct would not have allowed any abduction to take place.
As my specialism is Spanish maybe someone with Portuguese would like to have a go?
Tal denota que os país nao estavam persistentemente preocupados com os filhos, que nao iam fazer a sua verificacao como depois declararam efectuar, antes negligenciaram, embora nao temeraria, nem grosseiramente, o dever de guarda dos mesmos filhos.
Se tal dever de guarda tivesse sido observado, na hipotese de se ter tratado de um rapto, como insistentemente se referiu e continua a referir e e admissivel que tenha acontecido, a sua ocorrencia poderia ter sido eventualmente inviabilizada.
John someone fluent in Portuguese has translated it. I posted the translation earlier.
A previous forker fluent in Portuguese translated it.
You have already admitted you do not speak Portuguese so on what basis do you suspect the translation posted is not accurate ? Because you disagree with it ?
Because the Portuguese word for 'Lie' (nor its cognates) does not appear in the AG's summary!
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 07:15:27 PM
Saying someone lied is libel if incorrect. Saying someone was untruthful is not libel even if incorrect.
Lying requires a false statement with a clear intention to deceive. You misused the word. Suck it up.
Oh I think the AG is clear that the McCanns made false statements to deceive, his quoting of Mrs Fenn's statement proves this. He clearly believes the elderly lady over the McCanns and is explicit in saying so. He nowhere describes the McCanns false declarations as oversights or mistakes or indeed errors of recollection. They lied and were caught out in those lies, that's the bones of it and no matter what way you try to spin it, that is what he says.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 29, 2013, 07:23:18 PM
Give it up Faithlilly, DB will argue and split hairs about anything and everything, to the ridiculous extreme, he and some others are no different to Clarence Mitchell, their mantra is there is always an innocent explanation for anything found or not found, in their case, anything said or not said
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 07:25:56 PM
Give it up Faithlilly, DB will argue and split hairs about anything and everything, to the ridiculous extreme, he and some others are no different to Clarence Mitchell, their mantra is there is always an innocent explanation for anything found or not found, in their case, anything said or not said
My mantra is that the truth is important.
You said that the AG said that the McCanns lied. He did not say that. You were lying or mistaken!
Not splitting hairs, just keeping you honest (a full time occupation apparently.)
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 29, 2013, 08:11:03 PM
Give it up Faithlilly, DB will argue and split hairs about anything and everything, to the ridiculous extreme, he and some others are no different to Clarence Mitchell, their mantra is there is always an innocent explanation for anything found or not found, in their case, anything said or not said
My mantra is that the truth is important.
You said that the AG said that the McCanns lied. He did not say that. You were lying or mistaken!
Not splitting hairs, just keeping you honest (a full time occupation apparently.)
Are you drunk?
I never posted on this thread any such thing @)(++(*
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 08:15:17 PM
Give it up Faithlilly, DB will argue and split hairs about anything and everything, to the ridiculous extreme, he and some others are no different to Clarence Mitchell, their mantra is there is always an innocent explanation for anything found or not found, in their case, anything said or not said
My mantra is that the truth is important.
You said that the AG said that the McCanns lied. He did not say that. You were lying or mistaken!
Not splitting hairs, just keeping you honest (a full time occupation apparently.)
Are you drunk?
I never posted on this thread any such thing @)(++(*
Not on this thread possibly, but on another. Wriggle, wriggle.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 29, 2013, 08:20:00 PM
Give it up Faithlilly, DB will argue and split hairs about anything and everything, to the ridiculous extreme, he and some others are no different to Clarence Mitchell, their mantra is there is always an innocent explanation for anything found or not found, in their case, anything said or not said
My mantra is that the truth is important.
You said that the AG said that the McCanns lied. He did not say that. You were lying or mistaken!
Not splitting hairs, just keeping you honest (a full time occupation apparently.)
Are you drunk?
I never posted on this thread any such thing @)(++(*
Not on this thread possibly, but on another. Wriggle, wriggle.
Aww, must have been hard for you to realise you were wrong, wriggle wriggle, as it was WRONG and LYNG of yiu to state yesterday that I never gice cites,or links to my posts, pitiful liar that you are
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 08:30:50 PM
Give it up Faithlilly, DB will argue and split hairs about anything and everything, to the ridiculous extreme, he and some others are no different to Clarence Mitchell, their mantra is there is always an innocent explanation for anything found or not found, in their case, anything said or not said
My mantra is that the truth is important.
You said that the AG said that the McCanns lied. He did not say that. You were lying or mistaken!
Not splitting hairs, just keeping you honest (a full time occupation apparently.)
Are you drunk?
I never posted on this thread any such thing @)(++(*
Not on this thread possibly, but on another. Wriggle, wriggle.
Aww, must have been hard for you to realise you were wrong, wriggle wriggle, as it was WRONG and LYNG of yiu to state yesterday that I never gice cites,or links to my posts, pitiful liar that you are
If I were you I'd have another go at the vodka. Your prose and spelling might improve.
Unfortunately drunk or sober your reasoning doesn't.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 08:33:34 PM
Give it up Faithlilly, DB will argue and split hairs about anything and everything, to the ridiculous extreme, he and some others are no different to Clarence Mitchell, their mantra is there is always an innocent explanation for anything found or not found, in their case, anything said or not said
My mantra is that the truth is important.
You said that the AG said that the McCanns lied. He did not say that. You were lying or mistaken!
Not splitting hairs, just keeping you honest (a full time occupation apparently.)
Are you drunk?
I never posted on this thread any such thing @)(++(*
Not on this thread possibly, but on another. Wriggle, wriggle.
Aww, must have been hard for you to realise you were wrong, wriggle wriggle, as it was WRONG and LYNG of yiu to state yesterday that I never gice cites,or links to my posts, pitiful liar that you are
If I were you I'd have another go at the vodka. Your prose and spelling might improve.
Unfortunately drunk or sober your reasoning doesn't.
I think you will find my reasoning very sturdy- you just reject it because the results conflict with your mindset.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 29, 2013, 08:49:42 PM
Give it up Faithlilly, DB will argue and split hairs about anything and everything, to the ridiculous extreme, he and some others are no different to Clarence Mitchell, their mantra is there is always an innocent explanation for anything found or not found, in their case, anything said or not said
My mantra is that the truth is important.
You said that the AG said that the McCanns lied. He did not say that. You were lying or mistaken!
Not splitting hairs, just keeping you honest (a full time occupation apparently.)
Are you drunk?
I never posted on this thread any such thing @)(++(*
Not on this thread possibly, but on another. Wriggle, wriggle.
Aww, must have been hard for you to realise you were wrong, wriggle wriggle, as it was WRONG and LYNG of yiu to state yesterday that I never gice cites,or links to my posts, pitiful liar that you are
If I were you I'd have another go at the vodka. Your prose and spelling might improve.
no use tryng to be psychic sally dear, I dont drink vodka, and your personal attack on me is pants, whether i have a sherry or wine has sod all to do with anything, when you cant answer the post you attack the poster, thats a deaperate inditement on YOU and no one else, poor poor poor show, credibility zero, nite luv xxx
Ps your spelling and grammar are pants too at times when you start to have a hernia over posts here LOL hahah!!!!!
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 08:52:56 PM
Give it up Faithlilly, DB will argue and split hairs about anything and everything, to the ridiculous extreme, he and some others are no different to Clarence Mitchell, their mantra is there is always an innocent explanation for anything found or not found, in their case, anything said or not said
My mantra is that the truth is important.
You said that the AG said that the McCanns lied. He did not say that. You were lying or mistaken!
Not splitting hairs, just keeping you honest (a full time occupation apparently.)
Are you drunk?
I never posted on this thread any such thing @)(++(*
Not on this thread possibly, but on another. Wriggle, wriggle.
Aww, must have been hard for you to realise you were wrong, wriggle wriggle, as it was WRONG and LYNG of yiu to state yesterday that I never gice cites,or links to my posts, pitiful liar that you are
If I were you I'd have another go at the vodka. Your prose and spelling might improve.
no use tryng to be psychic sally dear, I dont drink vodka, and your personal attack on me is pants, whether i have a sherry or wine has sod all to do with anything, when you cant answer the post you attack the poster, thats a deaperate inditement on YOU and no one else, poor poor poor show, credibility zero, nite luv xxx
Ps your spelling and grammar are pants too at times when you start to have a hernia over posts here LOL hahah!!!!!
Are you into philosophy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_WRFJwGsbY
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 09:10:56 PM
Faithlilly, how do you know the AG meant "they lied" and not "they were mistaken"? Do you know the difference between lying and giving wrong information based on inaccurate recall?
Are you really suggesting the McCanns were 'mistaken in their recall' when declaring they had left the children for only 30 minutes when they had actually left them for over an hour ?
If they habitually checked every half-hour throughout the week and said so to the police, but on one or two occasions the gap between checks was actually longer does that make them liars? I know it does in your book, but in the eyes of the PT AG I suspect it does not.
You suspect ? The AG's opinion is clear, categorical and not changed by your 'suspicions'.
You are wrong. The AG does not categorically state that the McCanns lied. End of.
Of course he does or you wouldn't be trying to twist his words.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 29, 2013, 09:15:17 PM
Faithlilly, how do you know the AG meant "they lied" and not "they were mistaken"? Do you know the difference between lying and giving wrong information based on inaccurate recall?
Are you really suggesting the McCanns were 'mistaken in their recall' when declaring they had left the children for only 30 minutes when they had actually left them for over an hour ?
If they habitually checked every half-hour throughout the week and said so to the police, but on one or two occasions the gap between checks was actually longer does that make them liars? I know it does in your book, but in the eyes of the PT AG I suspect it does not.
You suspect ? The AG's opinion is clear, categorical and not changed by your 'suspicions'.
You are wrong. The AG does not categorically state that the McCanns lied. End of.
Of course he does or you wouldn't be trying to twist his words.
He certainly does not say it in the Portuguese. The translation distorts his words.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 29, 2013, 10:08:43 PM
Faithlilly, how do you know the AG meant "they lied" and not "they were mistaken"? Do you know the difference between lying and giving wrong information based on inaccurate recall?
Are you really suggesting the McCanns were 'mistaken in their recall' when declaring they had left the children for only 30 minutes when they had actually left them for over an hour ?
If they habitually checked every half-hour throughout the week and said so to the police, but on one or two occasions the gap between checks was actually longer does that make them liars? I know it does in your book, but in the eyes of the PT AG I suspect it does not.
You suspect ? The AG's opinion is clear, categorical and not changed by your 'suspicions'.
You are wrong. The AG does not categorically state that the McCanns lied. End of.
Of course he does or you wouldn't be trying to twist his words.
He certainly does not say it in the Portuguese. The translation distorts his words.
You must be BALD by now with all that hair splitting! LOL
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 10:52:07 PM
Blacksmith's back and with a very pertinet blog entry :
Carry on fibbing
Christmas 2012, Kate McCann on the Find Madeleine website: "Since March 2012 independent `physical' investigation of lines of enquiry by our team has been put on hold whilst the Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) Review progresses. This has been to avoid duplication (and thereby unnecessary expenditure) and to prevent the risk of compromising any work, albeit unintentionally, carried out by the MPS."
May 2013, Daily Mail and other news sites: Sources close to the McCanns ( yawn) say the family also want to speak to Mr Verran about his whereabouts at the time Madeleine was snatched from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, Portugal, in 2007. We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, [the McCanns' joke detectives] and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: muratfan on May 29, 2013, 11:07:35 PM
Blacksmith.... the same very person who had to grovel for forgiveness when he was easily proven wrong over the e-mail fiasco..
We can safely say Blacksmith and RedBlossom should get married
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 29, 2013, 11:12:14 PM
Blacksmith.... the same very person who had to grovel for forgiveness when he was easily proven wrong over the e-mail fiasco..
We can safely say Blacksmith and RedBlossom should get married
Blacksmith admitted on his blog that he has difficulty reading and understanding plain English so perhaps this is just another example of that problem...?
When the 'source close to the McCanns' ( Clarence Mitchell ? ) speaks of "we" and "us" who do you think he is refering to ?
Do you think Kate, Gerry, and Clarence want to speak to Verran personally ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: muratfan on May 30, 2013, 12:04:16 AM
Blacksmith.... the same very person who had to grovel for forgiveness when he was easily proven wrong over the e-mail fiasco..
We can safely say Blacksmith and RedBlossom should get married
Blacksmith admitted on his blog that he has difficulty reading and understanding plain English so perhaps this is just another example of that problem...?
When the 'source close to the McCanns' ( Clarence Mitchell ? ) speaks of "we" and "us" who do you think he is refering to ?
Do you think Kate, Gerry, and Clarence want to speak to Verran personally ?
More than likely the investigators acting on behalf of the McCanns I should think, but how does this constitute "more fibbing" as alleged by Blacksmith?
If the McCanns have as much faith in the review team as reported why are their investigators, who it was reported are no longer working for the McCanns, asking witnesses anything ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 10:15:12 AM
Gi' Oer was completely right: we had missed it. And when we posted yesterday that there was a second, changed version of the Star article we were completely wrong, mainly, it seems, because AS apparently can't f..king read.
So an apology to readers for the mistake and a grovelling apology to the poster Gi O'er for our mistake and the unjustified criticism.
MF was talking about the emails from the webmaster Martha.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 10:26:02 AM
Gi' Oer was completely right: we had missed it. And when we posted yesterday that there was a second, changed version of the Star article we were completely wrong, mainly, it seems, because AS apparently can't f..king read.
So an apology to readers for the mistake and a grovelling apology to the poster Gi O'er for our mistake and the unjustified criticism.
MF was talking about the emails from the webmaster Martha.
He may not have apologised about that, but the fact remains he was wrong about that too. The man has shown time and again that he has basic comprehension issues.
In what way was he wrong about the emails ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 11:52:03 AM
Kate made it clear in December 2012 (after this Express article and in the quote used by Blacksmith himself) that the investigation had been put on hold - when something is put on hold it means it may be resumed at a later date, do you not agree?
So why do you think if, as they have stated, the have great faith in the SY review are they now questioning witnesses themselves ? Isn't this somewhat undermining SY efforts or do you perhaps think that's the plan ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 12:19:30 PM
Kate made it clear in December 2012 (after this Express article and in the quote used by Blacksmith himself) that the investigation had been put on hold - when something is put on hold it means it may be resumed at a later date, do you not agree?
So why do you think if, as they have stated, the have great faith in the SY review are they now questioning witnesses themselves ? Isn't this somewhat undermining SY efforts or do you perhaps think that's the plan ?
You've already asked this question. I think you even started a thread about it to which I replied. Perhaps you could address the issue of "more fib telling" which, after all, was the subject of Blacksmith's most "pertinet" (sic) blog entry that you eagerly posted on here.
.
It seems you body swerved answering the question the first time round so I thought I'd give another chance.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 01:13:01 PM
Absolutely not. If I recall it was you who failed completely and utterly to show any deceit involved in the Webmaster or Kate McCann's actions. And here you are failing again to show how Blacksmith's contention re: "more fibbing" is supported by his latest half-ar..d blog entry.
Please try to stick to the question already asked in the OP. Thanks.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 02:00:06 PM
Absolutely not. If I recall it was you who failed completely and utterly to show any deceit involved in the Webmaster or Kate McCann's actions. And here you are failing again to show how Blacksmith's contention re: "more fibbing" is supported by his latest half-ar..d blog entry.
Please try to stick to the question already asked in the OP. Thanks.
@)(++(* Who made you the Mod? Didn't you just try and divert this thread yourself back onto the OFM Webmaster non-story?? Priceless!
If you read back it was MF who mentioned the emails, not me. I simply replied to his post. TBH if you can't even get that right what hope have you in understanding this most complicated of cases.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 02:03:32 PM
Question: Do the McCanns Trust Operation Grange To Do The Job?
Answer: Don't know, I haven't asked them, but from what I have read it seems that the McCanns are very encouraged by the Met's review so far. It seems that new leads have been uncovered which may have prompted the McCanns to resume their own investigations in lieu of the Portuguese's lack of action on that front.
Next question?
And you still haven't answered the original question so let's try one more time. Do you think the resumption of the McCanns own investigations suggest they do not trust SY to carry out the review properly ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 30, 2013, 04:17:56 PM
Kate made it clear in December 2012 (after this Express article and in the quote used by Blacksmith himself) that the investigation had been put on hold - when something is put on hold it means it may be resumed at a later date, do you not agree?
So do you think that the McCanns have offered a new contract to their private investigators ? ( or have hired new ones )
Why would they need to do that whilst Scotland Yard are currently investigating the case ?
Why would they need private investigators to interview a witness that officers from Scotland Yard have ( or will be ) interviewing ?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: DCI on May 30, 2013, 04:22:29 PM
Kate made it clear in December 2012 (after this Express article and in the quote used by Blacksmith himself) that the investigation had been put on hold - when something is put on hold it means it may be resumed at a later date, do you not agree?
So do you think that the McCanns have offered a new contract to their private investigators ? ( or have hired new ones )
Why would they need to do that whilst Scotland Yard are currently investigating the case ?
Why would they need private investigators to interview a witness that officers from Scotland Yard have ( or will be ) interviewing ?
You best ask the McCann's, icabodcrane. How you expect any of us to answer that, is just ludicrous
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 30, 2013, 04:36:12 PM
Kate made it clear in December 2012 (after this Express article and in the quote used by Blacksmith himself) that the investigation had been put on hold - when something is put on hold it means it may be resumed at a later date, do you not agree?
So do you think that the McCanns have offered a new contract to their private investigators ? ( or have hired new ones )
Why would they need to do that whilst Scotland Yard are currently investigating the case ?
Why would they need private investigators to interview a witness that officers from Scotland Yard have ( or will be ) interviewing ?
You best ask the McCann's, icabodcrane. How you expect any of us to answer that, is just ludicrous
Well, not having definitive answers doesn't prevent discussion, as a rule
I am inclined to think that this particular quote points to the possibility that the McCanns are not as 'in the loop' as we have been lead to believe
If they were as involved ( and informed ) in the Scotland Yard review as has been intimated, then they would not need to speak to Peter Verran themselves. They could simply wait until Scotland Yard had interviewed him in an official capacity, and then been updated on what had occured, and what he had said
The only reason they could have for interviewing Verran through their own private detectives, that I can see, is that Scotland Yard are not giving them operational details of the investigation
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 30, 2013, 04:52:05 PM
Why would they want to speak to Verran at all if they were involved in the disappearance of their daughter, can you speculate on that for us Icabod?
I make no accusations that the McCann were involved in Madeleine's disappearance
I am posing the question of whether or not the McCanns are as involved and informed by Scotland Yard as has been suggested, and if they are, then why the need to use private investigators to interview someone Scotland Yard will be interviewing themselves
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: DCI on May 30, 2013, 05:03:01 PM
Why would they want to speak to Verran at all if they were involved in the disappearance of their daughter, can you speculate on that for us Icabod?
I make no accusations that the McCann were involved in Madeleine's disappearance
I am posing the question of whether or not the McCanns are as involved and informed by Scotland Yard as has been suggested, and if they are, then why the need to use private investigators to interview someone Scotland Yard will be interviewing themselves
Didn't SY, say they were keeping the McCann's up to date? And who actually said, they are useing private investigators to interview someone Scotland Yard will be interviewing themselves?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 30, 2013, 05:07:22 PM
Why would they want to speak to Verran at all if they were involved in the disappearance of their daughter, can you speculate on that for us Icabod?
I make no accusations that the McCann were involved in Madeleine's disappearance
I am posing the question of whether or not the McCanns are as involved and informed by Scotland Yard as has been suggested, and if they are, then why the need to use private investigators to interview someone Scotland Yard will be interviewing themselves
So you don't think the McCanns were involved in Madeleine's disappearance then?
I don't know what to think
Every possible scenario raises more questions than answers
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 30, 2013, 05:15:58 PM
Quote
icabodcrane I don't know what to think
Every possible scenario raises more questions than answers
for you it certainly does.
asking negative questions is your speciality.
do you mind if I ask you every day whether you have made up your mind yet?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Benice on May 30, 2013, 05:20:36 PM
Why would they want to speak to Verran at all if they were involved in the disappearance of their daughter, can you speculate on that for us Icabod?
I make no accusations that the McCann were involved in Madeleine's disappearance
I am posing the question of whether or not the McCanns are as involved and informed by Scotland Yard as has been suggested, and if they are, then why the need to use private investigators to interview someone Scotland Yard will be interviewing themselves
Didn't SY, say they were keeping the McCann's up to date? And who actually said, they are useing private investigators to interview someone Scotland Yard will be interviewing themselves?
I believe it was that well-known fine upstanding citizen - A. Source.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 05:34:26 PM
Absolutely not. If I recall it was you who failed completely and utterly to show any deceit involved in the Webmaster or Kate McCann's actions. And here you are failing again to show how Blacksmith's contention re: "more fibbing" is supported by his latest half-ar..d blog entry.
Please try to stick to the question already asked in the OP. Thanks.
@)(++(* Who made you the Mod? Didn't you just try and divert this thread yourself back onto the OFM Webmaster non-story?? Priceless!
If you read back it was MF who mentioned the emails, not me. I simply replied to his post. TBH if you can't even get that right what hope have you in understanding this most complicated of cases.
It was you who made an issue of it and began your interrogations. If you didn't want to take the thread off-topic you should simply have ignored it shouldn't you dear?
And let a lie stand. Not on your nelly sweetie.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: DCI on May 30, 2013, 05:45:23 PM
Why would they want to speak to Verran at all if they were involved in the disappearance of their daughter, can you speculate on that for us Icabod?
I make no accusations that the McCann were involved in Madeleine's disappearance
I am posing the question of whether or not the McCanns are as involved and informed by Scotland Yard as has been suggested, and if they are, then why the need to use private investigators to interview someone Scotland Yard will be interviewing themselves
Didn't SY, say they were keeping the McCann's up to date? And who actually said, they are useing private investigators to interview someone Scotland Yard will be interviewing themselves?
I believe it was that well-known fine upstanding citizen - A. Source.
Oh, thanks Benice, thats fine then. So not a A.Sauce.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 06:01:34 PM
Absolutely not. If I recall it was you who failed completely and utterly to show any deceit involved in the Webmaster or Kate McCann's actions. And here you are failing again to show how Blacksmith's contention re: "more fibbing" is supported by his latest half-ar..d blog entry.
Please try to stick to the question already asked in the OP. Thanks.
@)(++(* Who made you the Mod? Didn't you just try and divert this thread yourself back onto the OFM Webmaster non-story?? Priceless!
If you read back it was MF who mentioned the emails, not me. I simply replied to his post. TBH if you can't even get that right what hope have you in understanding this most complicated of cases.
It was you who made an issue of it and began your interrogations. If you didn't want to take the thread off-topic you should simply have ignored it shouldn't you dear?
And let a lie stand. Not on your nelly sweetie.
Heavens above, when did you develop such an attachment to the truth?! @)(++(*
Must have happened when I witnessed you treating it with such blatant disregard.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 06:47:24 PM
Would you care to point out where I have treated the truth with disregard - ever?
Would you also care to explain why, if you care about the truth so much you allow so much misinformation to appear on the Controversy FB page that you are admin on - for example today someone has posted in capital letters re: the forth-coming libel action against Amaral:
THE MCCANNS : THE PAIR HAVE GIVEN UP AND ASKED FOR TERMS
Is this the standard of truth-telling that you uphold?
I'm admin on the Controversy group, am I ? Well that's news to me. No wonder you believe the McCanns. Seems you believe any old rubbish fed to you. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: DCI on May 30, 2013, 06:56:19 PM
On My Oath, Never Again Will I Venture Near HoHo's Madeleine Videos!
I am still stunned the woman used a distressed child crying to enhance her video. Oh she has an apology written across the opening clip and advises you should turn the volume down. Turning it down did not subtract from the fact that a seriously distressed child was used for the video owners gain.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCMNWg0fE5Y
I am curious to know where she got the soundtrack for the beginning of the video? Did she trawl the net for it? If she did, what kind of person does that? If she didn't, whose child did she use? I also wonder if she gave any thought at all to the Grandparents of Madeleine? Did she even ponder on how distressing it would be to them if they should stumble across it? What about the little girl's siblings, don't they matter?
Realizing how low people will stoop to get their accolades has been an eyeopener for me, knowing it was a woman's doing, confirms the female of the species is more deadly than the male. Oh, and despite searching, I cannot see in writing where the McCanns have given up the copyright to the pictures of their daughter.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 07:01:03 PM
On My Oath, Never Again Will I Venture Near HoHo's Madeleine Videos!
I am still stunned the woman used a distressed child crying to enhance her video. Oh she has an apology written across the opening clip and advises you should turn the volume down. Turning it down did not subtract from the fact that a seriously distressed child was used for the video owners gain.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCMNWg0fE5Y
I am curious to know where she got the soundtrack for the beginning of the video? Did she trawl the net for it? If she did, what kind of person does that? If she didn't, whose child did she use? I also wonder if she gave any thought at all to the Grandparents of Madeleine? Did she even ponder on how distressing it would be to them if they should stumble across it? What about the little girl's siblings, don't they matter?
Realizing how low people will stoop to get their accolades has been an eyeopener for me, knowing it was a woman's doing, confirms the female of the species is more deadly than the male. Oh, and despite searching, I cannot see in writing where the McCanns have given up the copyright to the pictures of their daughter.
The hypocrisy of it ! Did the McCanns care how their parents would feel hearing that two of their grandchildren cried while alone and, even when told, they left their grandchildren alone again.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 30, 2013, 07:06:37 PM
some people sound really sick on here don't they.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 30, 2013, 07:09:00 PM
they prefer behind closed doors
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 30, 2013, 07:18:00 PM
Why would they want to speak to Verran at all if they were involved in the disappearance of their daughter, can you speculate on that for us Icabod?
I make no accusations that the McCann were involved in Madeleine's disappearance
I am posing the question of whether or not the McCanns are as involved and informed by Scotland Yard as has been suggested, and if they are, then why the need to use private investigators to interview someone Scotland Yard will be interviewing themselves
Didn't SY, say they were keeping the McCann's up to date?
I think they did say something like that at some point, and the McCanns have certainly given the impression that they are kept informed of developments in the review
Just a few days ago, for instance, Kate's mum, Susan Healy, said that Kate and Gerry had kept her in the dark because Scotland Yard had told them "not to say anything about the investigation" ... which implies that Scotland Yard have been giving them operational details of such confidentiality that they must not even speak privately to their closest relatives about it
Which makes it all the more bizarre that the McCanns would need to independently interview witnesses who have already been questioned by Scotland Yard
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 30, 2013, 07:27:20 PM
Icabod, they said they would like to interview Verran, presumably to follow up on a previous interview they themselves had conducted. What is bizarre about that?
Nothing stops them from asking him to do so, once NSY has finished with him, of course. It's up to him whether he agrees or not, but why shouldn't they ask if he'd speak to them again to clarify matters relating to the previous interview?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 30, 2013, 07:27:42 PM
Icabod, they said they would like to interview Verran, presumably to follow up on a previous interview they themselves had conducted. What is bizarre about that?
If they are as closely involved in the Scotland Yard investigation as is claimed ( to the extent where they are aware of information so sensitive and confidential that Kate is forbidden to even speak to her mum about it ! ) then why would they need to question Verran themselves ? ... they would know all they need to know by simply asking the Yard what had transpired when they officially questioed him
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Mrs. B on May 30, 2013, 07:31:14 PM
Because they can, if they want to. And he can answer their questions, if he wants to. Nothing to with anyone else.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: amaraltheofficeboy on May 30, 2013, 07:44:32 PM
Icabod, they said they would like to interview Verran, presumably to follow up on a previous interview they themselves had conducted. What is bizarre about that?
If they are as closely involved in the Scotland Yard investigation as is claimed ( to the extent where they are aware of information so sensitive and confidential that Kate is forbidden to even speak to her mum about it ! ) then why would they need to question Verran themselves ? ... they would know all they need to know by simply asking the Yard what had transpired when they officially questioed him
haven't you realised that asking questions leaves you in a mystery of confusion by now?
but yet you persist in baffling yourself.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 30, 2013, 08:21:59 PM
How come the Verrans didnt come forward before 2009? To tell of their encounters with Hewlett? In May 2007? They appeared on the scene after the Mccanns PIs Edgar and Cowley were employed. Did they go to any police or to Metodo 3? One might think they were trying to find a patsy. Similarly the anonymous business man who waited two years to come forward to spill the beans about the Victoria Beckham lookalike encounter. And thats not the only two examples of witnesses to all and sundry coming out of the woodwork months and years later once the PIs began work.Gail Cooper, Antonio Cardoso and others too. And as for the latest tripe in the Mirror about the laundry man only coming forward now because of the secrecy of justide, what rot, he alledgedly spoke to the Mirror in Sept 07 when it was still in place, and btw it had expired in July 2008 so he had 5 years to contact them @)(++(*
Eta Id also like to know why Jane Tanners photofit sketch took till October to be produced
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: debunker on May 30, 2013, 08:34:38 PM
Are the bars open already?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 30, 2013, 08:46:15 PM
Eta Id also like to know why Jane Tanners photofit sketch took till October to be produced
If you bothered to read the files and Kate McCanns book you would know the answer to that question.. The PJ DID NOT have the software available for Jane Tanner to do a side sketch of the man she saw carrying a child..
From Ms Tanner's Rogatory Interview
Quote
Reply “You see this is where now I’m really, I don’t even know whether it’s worth doing this, because there’s been so much, since then I’ve had the, when they took me round for the surveillance to look at, and I’m guessing now it’s MURAT they wanted me to look at and, you know, all the other bits and bobs, I really don’t know, but I think I’d prefer just to stick with what I said in my original statement, in terms of the, because even, I mean, this is coming back to the sketch, even when I did the sketch, by that stage, you know, things were, were murky, I needed to that sketch that first night, I mean, they took me in to do the sketch, but they only had, erm, front facing software, so you know, and at that point I said, you know, is there, can I do, because the clothes and everything was the thing was the thing that was the most in my mind then and I can remember saying to the chap I met on the stairs earlier, I think it’s (inaudible), is it?” 4078 “Yeah”. Reply “Because he took me in the car back and forth and I can remember saying to him on the way back ‘Look, is there a way I can do a sketch with clothes, you know, do you have software or any way that I can do a sketch of the clothes or a side, a side view’. And he sort of said ‘No, we don’t have that feasible, you know, feasibility or availability’. And I said then ‘Can I do that when I go back to the UK’, you know, because at that point it was in my head and it would have been, and they were the bits that I think would have been recognisable to get down on paper. But at that point it was like ‘Oh no, we can’t do that, we don’t work in that way’. Which I can understand and, you know, now obviously I think ‘Oh I should have pushed and really pushed’, but at that point you rely on, you don’t, you know, you’re just in such shock and you just think ‘Okay that’s the way things do’, but”. 4078 “Yeah”. Reply “But, I mean, I think, so the things that I’m happy, that are still in my head, that still stick in my head is the hair and it was longer, it was sort of longish and, erm, I don’t know how to (inaudible), but each, each, almost the hair was long, the bits of hair were long, so it was long into the neck, you know, sort of in, when people have a number one or whatever at the back and it’s shaved, not shaved up, but, you know, sort of layered up, this was more long into the neck, so sort of long, each, each individual hair was long, erm, and dark, it was sort of quite dark and glossy, that sticks in my head. And sort of the dark, dark clothes and quite billowy, not billowy clothes, but quite baggy, sort of they seemed, erm, not ill fitting but quite baggy clothes, like not jeans, but trousers sort of not Chinos but not Farrahs either, but sort of baggy’ish sort of ill fitting more than. And they’re the bits that I remember quite vividly sort of”. 4078 “And what colours?” Reply “Dark colours, but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour, again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a, as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a cottony material but baggy”. 4078 “You know the artist’s impression that you”. Reply “Umm”. 4078 “That has been circulated a lot. How happy are you with that?” Reply “Erm, phew, reasonably, but, I mean, it was the best I could do after that time, I mean, it was more, the hair was the one thing on that that I wasn’t completely happy about but we couldn’t get it any better because it was the sort of, I almost think that might have been slightly too long or just, but on the whole I think the actual sort of style and everything was, was fairly right. I mean, I tried to do that though from my original description that we wrote down, sort of well afterwards (inaudible) we tried to get all our thoughts down and I tried to do it as much as I could from that, because six months on, as I say, there was, I think the problem is there’d been so much put into my head since then, like doing the surveillance and, you know, looking at people on that and things, it was very hard to, to do it”.
And this is from Kate McCann's bestseller
Quote
All the preparatory work was now being put into action. Brian Kennedy arranged for Jane Tanner to see an FBI-accredited forensic sketch artist to try to create an image of the man she saw carrying a child on 3 May.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine (p. 273). Random House UK. Kindle Edition.
It was Brian Kennedy, who decided to help the McCann family after they returned to the United Kingdom, who arranged for Jane Tanner to see an FBI accredited forensic sketch artist. It is obvious from the Rogatory Interview that the PJ did not have the software to produce a proper e-fit for circulation.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 30, 2013, 08:49:51 PM
Icabod, they said they would like to interview Verran, presumably to follow up on a previous interview they themselves had conducted. What is bizarre about that?
If they are as closely involved in the Scotland Yard investigation as is claimed ( to the extent where they are aware of information so sensitive and confidential that Kate is forbidden to even speak to her mum about it ! ) then why would they need to question Verran themselves ? ... they would know all they need to know by simply asking the Yard what had transpired when they officially questioed him
haven't you realised that asking questions leaves you in a mystery of confusion by now?
but yet you persist in baffling yourself.
In your ideal world, no one would ask any questions about a cold case, anathema to you and others in this particular case, unprecedented, as IF you actually knew the truth and therefore have the right to tell people to shut up
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 30, 2013, 08:57:04 PM
Eta Id also like to know why Jane Tanners photofit sketch took till October to be produced
If you bothered to read the files and Kate McCanns book you would know the answer to that question.. The PJ DID NOT have the software available for Jane Tanner to do a side sketch of the man she saw carrying a child..
From Ms Tanner's Rogatory Interview
Quote
Reply “You see this is where now I’m really, I don’t even know whether it’s worth doing this, because there’s been so much, since then I’ve had the, when they took me round for the surveillance to look at, and I’m guessing now it’s MURAT they wanted me to look at and, you know, all the other bits and bobs, I really don’t know, but I think I’d prefer just to stick with what I said in my original statement, in terms of the, because even, I mean, this is coming back to the sketch, even when I did the sketch, by that stage, you know, things were, were murky, I needed to that sketch that first night, I mean, they took me in to do the sketch, but they only had, erm, front facing software, so you know, and at that point I said, you know, is there, can I do, because the clothes and everything was the thing was the thing that was the most in my mind then and I can remember saying to the chap I met on the stairs earlier, I think it’s (inaudible), is it?” 4078 “Yeah”. Reply “Because he took me in the car back and forth and I can remember saying to him on the way back ‘Look, is there a way I can do a sketch with clothes, you know, do you have software or any way that I can do a sketch of the clothes or a side, a side view’. And he sort of said ‘No, we don’t have that feasible, you know, feasibility or availability’. And I said then ‘Can I do that when I go back to the UK’, you know, because at that point it was in my head and it would have been, and they were the bits that I think would have been recognisable to get down on paper. But at that point it was like ‘Oh no, we can’t do that, we don’t work in that way’. Which I can understand and, you know, now obviously I think ‘Oh I should have pushed and really pushed’, but at that point you rely on, you don’t, you know, you’re just in such shock and you just think ‘Okay that’s the way things do’, but”. 4078 “Yeah”. Reply “But, I mean, I think, so the things that I’m happy, that are still in my head, that still stick in my head is the hair and it was longer, it was sort of longish and, erm, I don’t know how to (inaudible), but each, each, almost the hair was long, the bits of hair were long, so it was long into the neck, you know, sort of in, when people have a number one or whatever at the back and it’s shaved, not shaved up, but, you know, sort of layered up, this was more long into the neck, so sort of long, each, each individual hair was long, erm, and dark, it was sort of quite dark and glossy, that sticks in my head. And sort of the dark, dark clothes and quite billowy, not billowy clothes, but quite baggy, sort of they seemed, erm, not ill fitting but quite baggy clothes, like not jeans, but trousers sort of not Chinos but not Farrahs either, but sort of baggy’ish sort of ill fitting more than. And they’re the bits that I remember quite vividly sort of”. 4078 “And what colours?” Reply “Dark colours, but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour, again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a, as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a cottony material but baggy”. 4078 “You know the artist’s impression that you”. Reply “Umm”. 4078 “That has been circulated a lot. How happy are you with that?” Reply “Erm, phew, reasonably, but, I mean, it was the best I could do after that time, I mean, it was more, the hair was the one thing on that that I wasn’t completely happy about but we couldn’t get it any better because it was the sort of, I almost think that might have been slightly too long or just, but on the whole I think the actual sort of style and everything was, was fairly right. I mean, I tried to do that though from my original description that we wrote down, sort of well afterwards (inaudible) we tried to get all our thoughts down and I tried to do it as much as I could from that, because six months on, as I say, there was, I think the problem is there’d been so much put into my head since then, like doing the surveillance and, you know, looking at people on that and things, it was very hard to, to do it”.
And this is from Kate McCann's bestseller
Quote
All the preparatory work was now being put into action. Brian Kennedy arranged for Jane Tanner to see an FBI-accredited forensic sketch artist to try to create an image of the man she saw carrying a child on 3 May.
McCann, Kate (2011-05-12). Madeleine (p. 273). Random House UK. Kindle Edition.
It was Brian Kennedy, who decided to help the McCann family after they returned to the United Kingdom, who arranged for Jane Tanner to see an FBI accredited forensic sketch artist. It is obvious from the Rogatory Interview that the PJ did not have the software to produce a proper e-fit for circulation.
Thanks, thats cool then there, but what prevented the Mccanns and their myriad of helpers and advisers doing it off their own backs before then, its not as if they didnt do all manner of appeals, activities, conferences, LP support,and the rest and seeing as they were so convinced that was the man from the beginning.....oh, and if the PJ had no software how did they release a bunch of other efits from other witnesses?
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 30, 2013, 09:09:22 PM
Thanks, thats cool then there, but what prevented the Mccanns and their myriad of helpers and advisers doing it off their own backs before then, its not as if they didnt do all manner of appeals, activities, conferences and the rest and seeing as they were so convinced that was the man from the beginning.....oh, and if the PJ had no software how did they release a bunch of other efits from other witnesses?
The PJ DID NOT have side facing software available to them and they DID NOT produce a sketch artist. All the other e-fits produced by the PJ were full frontal, which they did have software for.
As for waiting until their return to the United Kingdom, perhaps the McCann family thought it best not to put themselves into a precarious situation, with regards to possibly breaching judicial secrecy or breaching some rule of the penal code. Hence they waited until they returned to the United Kingdom to get things moving.
But there again, whatever the McCann family do, some people will just nit pick purely because they detest this family. Unfortunately attacking the McCann family does absolutely nothing in finding a missing child.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 30, 2013, 09:19:49 PM
Thanks, thats cool then there, but what prevented the Mccanns and their myriad of helpers and advisers doing it off their own backs before then, its not as if they didnt do all manner of appeals, activities, conferences and the rest and seeing as they were so convinced that was the man from the beginning.....oh, and if the PJ had no software how did they release a bunch of other efits from other witnesses?
The PJ DID NOT have side facing software available to them and they DID NOT produce a sketch artist. All the other e-fits produced by the PJ were full frontal, which they did have software for.
As for waiting until their return to the United Kingdom, perhaps the McCann family thought it best not to put themselves into a precarious situation, with regards to possibly breaching judicial secrecy or breaching some rule of the penal code. Hence they waited until they returned to the United Kingdom to get things moving.
But there again, whatever the McCann family do, some people will just nit pick purely because they detest this family. Unfortunately attacking the McCann family does absolutely nothing in finding a missing child.
Thanks, I have no idea why in the 21st century a police force might not have or use a sketch artist, anyway the secrecy of justice argument is weak, as it doesnt stop applyng if one moves countries while a case is open
You ARE right that the Mccanns in some situations are damned if they do and damned if they dont, I have no quarrel with that, and there IS alot of nitpicking thats taken place, but it is not always the case, and I find your words misleading, some people might find the couple objectionable or suspect they are economical with the truth, doesnt mean they detest the whole family, dramatic embellishment there IMO
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 30, 2013, 09:36:11 PM
Thanks, I have no idea why in the 21st century a police force might not have or use a sketch artist, anyway the secrecy of justice argument is weak, as it doesnt stop applyng if one moves countries while a case is open
When the Lead Co-Ordinator Goncalo Amaral states that there were weaknesses in fingerprinting and it is normal for a small Police Station to be like this and not have specialist investigators to deal with a case like child abduction, it does rather make you believe Jane Tanner's version of events, that they didn't have the proper equipment to issue a proper e-fit.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 30, 2013, 09:41:43 PM
Thanks, I have no idea why in the 21st century a police force might not have or use a sketch artist, anyway the secrecy of justice argument is weak, as it doesnt stop applyng if one moves countries while a case is open
When the Lead Co-Ordinator Goncalo Amaral states that there were weaknesses in fingerprinting and it is normal for a small Police Station to be like this and not have specialist investigators to deal with a case like child abduction, it does rather make you believe Jane Tanner's version of events, that they didn't have the proper equipment to issue a proper e-fit.
you didnt reply to my post fully, never mind, what does your user name stand for btw
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 30, 2013, 10:23:29 PM
Icabod, they said they would like to interview Verran, presumably to follow up on a previous interview they themselves had conducted. What is bizarre about that?
And what do they think they can find out from him that SY can't ? Besides what are they going to do with any information they can glean from him, that's if, of course, he agrees to speak to them. They have no legal right to question Verran and I would think SY won't be too pleased that the McCanns are attempting to question a possible suspect.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Redblossom on May 30, 2013, 10:54:19 PM
Icabod, they said they would like to interview Verran, presumably to follow up on a previous interview they themselves had conducted. What is bizarre about that?
And what do they think they can find out from him that SY can't ? Besides what are they going to do with any information they can glean from him, that's if, of course, he agrees to speak to them. They have no legal right to question Verran and I would think SY won't be too pleased that the McCanns are attempting to question a possible suspect.
Unless things have changed and I've missed something - the McCanns haven't said they want to speak to him. It's A. Source who has made that uncorroberated claim. IOW either hearsay, or completely untrue. I favour the latter.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 30, 2013, 11:19:04 PM
Icabod, they said they would like to interview Verran, presumably to follow up on a previous interview they themselves had conducted. What is bizarre about that?
And what do they think they can find out from him that SY can't ? Besides what are they going to do with any information they can glean from him, that's if, of course, he agrees to speak to them. They have no legal right to question Verran and I would think SY won't be too pleased that the McCanns are attempting to question a possible suspect.
Unless things have changed and I've missed something - the McCanns haven't said they want to speak to him. It's A. Source who has made that uncorroberated claim. IOW either hearsay, or completely untrue. I favour the latter.
You are correct Benice. The source never mentioned speaking to Verran at all. The only people who they were speaking to were the Police and discussing with them why Verran had never said this to them when they spoke to him.
The part of the article that states that the McCanns' Investigators want to speak to Verran, is what the journalist wrote and it is not corroborated by the quote given by the source.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 30, 2013, 11:35:09 PM
Icabod, they said they would like to interview Verran, presumably to follow up on a previous interview they themselves had conducted. What is bizarre about that?
And what do they think they can find out from him that SY can't ? Besides what are they going to do with any information they can glean from him, that's if, of course, he agrees to speak to them. They have no legal right to question Verran and I would think SY won't be too pleased that the McCanns are attempting to question a possible suspect.
Unless things have changed and I've missed something - the McCanns haven't said they want to speak to him. It's A. Source who has made that uncorroberated claim. IOW either hearsay, or completely untrue. I favour the latter.
You are correct Benice. The source never mentioned speaking to Verran at all. The only people who they were speaking to were the Police and discussing with them why Verran had never said this to them when they spoke to him.
The part of the article that states that the McCanns' Investigators want to speak to Verran, is what the journalist wrote and it is not corroborated by the quote given by the source.
From the article :
‘We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
A direct quote from 'the source', Clarence Mitchell probably. One good thing about the McCanns being so litigious is that the tabloids wouldn't dare attribute a quote to 'a source close to the McCanns' if that wasn't exactly where it had come from.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 30, 2013, 11:41:56 PM
‘We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
A direct quote from 'the source', Clarence Mitchell probably. One good thing about the McCanns being so litigious is that the tabloids wouldn't dare attribute a quote to 'a source close to the McCanns' if that wasn't exactly where it had come from.
If you read the article correctly, and take into consideration what the source says after that remark you will understand that the source was talking in the past tense with regards to their conversations with Verran.
Quote
‘It is potentially interesting that this information has now emerged and we will be discussing this development with police.’
What they are saying is that during previous conversations with Verran that the PI's had, he never mentioned anything about his van being stolen.
This is what happens, people use part of the comment attributed to a quote and that is when the information is taken out of context.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: faithlilly on May 31, 2013, 12:10:30 AM
‘We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
A direct quote from 'the source', Clarence Mitchell probably. One good thing about the McCanns being so litigious is that the tabloids wouldn't dare attribute a quote to 'a source close to the McCanns' if that wasn't exactly where it had come from.
If you read the article correctly, and take into consideration what the source says after that remark you will understand that the source was talking in the past tense with regards to their conversations with Verran.
Quote
‘It is potentially interesting that this information has now emerged and we will be discussing this development with police.’
What they are saying is that during previous conversations with Verran that the PI's had, he never mentioned anything about his van being stolen.
This is what happens, people use part of the comment attributed to a quote and that is when the information is taken out of context.
What are you rattling on about ? The article makes it clear, through quotes from their source, that the McCanns want to talk to Verran about what has been revealed since their last interview with him. There is no ambiguity and no distortion of context.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Benice on May 31, 2013, 12:31:38 AM
‘We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
A direct quote from 'the source', Clarence Mitchell probably. One good thing about the McCanns being so litigious is that the tabloids wouldn't dare attribute a quote to 'a source close to the McCanns' if that wasn't exactly where it had come from.
If you read the article correctly, and take into consideration what the source says after that remark you will understand that the source was talking in the past tense with regards to their conversations with Verran.
Quote
‘It is potentially interesting that this information has now emerged and we will be discussing this development with police.’
What they are saying is that during previous conversations with Verran that the PI's had, he never mentioned anything about his van being stolen.
This is what happens, people use part of the comment attributed to a quote and that is when the information is taken out of context.
What are you rattling on about ? The article makes it clear, through quotes from their source, that the McCanns want to talk to Verran about what has been revealed since their last interview with him. There is no ambiguity and no distortion of context.
So who is this source? Let's face it it's not even important enough information for a newspaper to pay A. Source for it. ''A source close to...'' is an old ploy used by newspapers to bulk out an article to make it more interesting. I thought everyone knew that. Why would Clarence Mitchell need to pretend to be A. Source? Sorry but that makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: gilet on May 31, 2013, 12:35:11 AM
‘We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
A direct quote from 'the source', Clarence Mitchell probably. One good thing about the McCanns being so litigious is that the tabloids wouldn't dare attribute a quote to 'a source close to the McCanns' if that wasn't exactly where it had come from.
If you read the article correctly, and take into consideration what the source says after that remark you will understand that the source was talking in the past tense with regards to their conversations with Verran.
Quote
‘It is potentially interesting that this information has now emerged and we will be discussing this development with police.’
What they are saying is that during previous conversations with Verran that the PI's had, he never mentioned anything about his van being stolen.
This is what happens, people use part of the comment attributed to a quote and that is when the information is taken out of context.
What are you rattling on about ? The article makes it clear, through quotes from their source, that the McCanns want to talk to Verran about what has been revealed since their last interview with him. There is no ambiguity and no distortion of context.
So who is this source? Let's face it it's not even important enough information for a newspaper to pay A. Source for it. ''A source close to...'' is an old ploy used by newspapers to bulk out an article to make it more interesting. I thought everyone knew that. Why would Clarence Mitchell need to pretend to be A. Source? Sorry but that makes no sense to me.
Correct Benice.
There is only supposition on the part of Faithlilly that Mitchell is the source. And it is not a supposition which stands up to much scrutiny.
When Faithlilly explains why on this occasion Mitchell should choose (unlike on the many, many other occasions when he has been named) to remain anonymous then perhaps it might be worth considering.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Benice on May 31, 2013, 12:53:08 AM
‘We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
A direct quote from 'the source', Clarence Mitchell probably. One good thing about the McCanns being so litigious is that the tabloids wouldn't dare attribute a quote to 'a source close to the McCanns' if that wasn't exactly where it had come from.
If you read the article correctly, and take into consideration what the source says after that remark you will understand that the source was talking in the past tense with regards to their conversations with Verran.
Quote
‘It is potentially interesting that this information has now emerged and we will be discussing this development with police.’
What they are saying is that during previous conversations with Verran that the PI's had, he never mentioned anything about his van being stolen.
This is what happens, people use part of the comment attributed to a quote and that is when the information is taken out of context.
What are you rattling on about ? The article makes it clear, through quotes from their source, that the McCanns want to talk to Verran about what has been revealed since their last interview with him. There is no ambiguity and no distortion of context.
So who is this source? Let's face it it's not even important enough information for a newspaper to pay A. Source for it. ''A source close to...'' is an old ploy used by newspapers to bulk out an article to make it more interesting. I thought everyone knew that. Why would Clarence Mitchell need to pretend to be A. Source? Sorry but that makes no sense to me.
Correct Benice.
There is only supposition on the part of Faithlilly that Mitchell is the source. And it is not a supposition which stands up to much scrutiny.
When Faithlilly explains why on this occasion Mitchell should choose (unlike on the many, many other occasions when he has been named) to remain anonymous then perhaps it might be worth considering.
Well it was hardly earth shattering information was it - so why the need to hide his identity? It's all nonsense IMO and just another example of the 'sceptics' picking up on ANYTHING to use as a stick to beat the McCanns with.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: icabodcrane on May 31, 2013, 12:55:04 AM
‘We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
A direct quote from 'the source', Clarence Mitchell probably. One good thing about the McCanns being so litigious is that the tabloids wouldn't dare attribute a quote to 'a source close to the McCanns' if that wasn't exactly where it had come from.
If you read the article correctly, and take into consideration what the source says after that remark you will understand that the source was talking in the past tense with regards to their conversations with Verran.
Quote
‘It is potentially interesting that this information has now emerged and we will be discussing this development with police.’
What they are saying is that during previous conversations with Verran that the PI's had, he never mentioned anything about his van being stolen.
This is what happens, people use part of the comment attributed to a quote and that is when the information is taken out of context.
What are you rattling on about ? The article makes it clear, through quotes from their source, that the McCanns want to talk to Verran about what has been revealed since their last interview with him. There is no ambiguity and no distortion of context.
So who is this source? Let's face it it's not even important enough information for a newspaper to pay A. Source for it. ''A source close to...'' is an old ploy used by newspapers to bulk out an article to make it more interesting. I thought everyone knew that. Why would Clarence Mitchell need to pretend to be A. Source? Sorry but that makes no sense to me.
Correct Benice.
There is only supposition on the part of Faithlilly that Mitchell is the source. And it is not a supposition which stands up to much scrutiny.
When Faithlilly explains why on this occasion Mitchell should choose (unlike on the many, many other occasions when he has been named) to remain anonymous then perhaps it might be worth considering.
I think Faithlilly is probably correct, and the 'source close to the McCann' is Clarence Michelll
I agree with her that, post Leveson, it is highly unlikely that a newspaper would attribute a quote to a McCann source unless it were so
There is something about the familiar use of 'us' and 'we' that has Michell's stamp about it too
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: TTSOFAFM on May 31, 2013, 07:28:47 AM
‘We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
A direct quote from 'the source', Clarence Mitchell probably. One good thing about the McCanns being so litigious is that the tabloids wouldn't dare attribute a quote to 'a source close to the McCanns' if that wasn't exactly where it had come from.
If you read the article correctly, and take into consideration what the source says after that remark you will understand that the source was talking in the past tense with regards to their conversations with Verran.
Quote
‘It is potentially interesting that this information has now emerged and we will be discussing this development with police.’
What they are saying is that during previous conversations with Verran that the PI's had, he never mentioned anything about his van being stolen.
This is what happens, people use part of the comment attributed to a quote and that is when the information is taken out of context.
What are you rattling on about ? The article makes it clear, through quotes from their source, that the McCanns want to talk to Verran about what has been revealed since their last interview with him. There is no ambiguity and no distortion of context.
What am I rattling on about? I am just correcting your supposition. You state categorically that the source says they want to speak to Mr Verran. You are incorrect. The source does NOT say they wish to speak to Mr Verran. The source says they will be discussing this with the Police.
Admittedly the article does say Sources close to the McCanns say the family also want to speak to Mr Verran about his whereabouts at the time Madeleine was snatched from the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, Portugal, in 2007. but once you read what the source actually says, then you realise the paper has taken the source out of context.
As I said the direct quote from the source, relates to previous interviews with Mr Verran and is spoken in the past tense.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: Puffin on May 31, 2013, 07:52:52 AM
Deleted.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 03:33:23 PM
‘We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
A direct quote from 'the source', Clarence Mitchell probably. One good thing about the McCanns being so litigious is that the tabloids wouldn't dare attribute a quote to 'a source close to the McCanns' if that wasn't exactly where it had come from.
If you read the article correctly, and take into consideration what the source says after that remark you will understand that the source was talking in the past tense with regards to their conversations with Verran.
Quote
‘It is potentially interesting that this information has now emerged and we will be discussing this development with police.’
What they are saying is that during previous conversations with Verran that the PI's had, he never mentioned anything about his van being stolen.
This is what happens, people use part of the comment attributed to a quote and that is when the information is taken out of context.
What are you rattling on about ? The article makes it clear, through quotes from their source, that the McCanns want to talk to Verran about what has been revealed since their last interview with him. There is no ambiguity and no distortion of context.
So who is this source? Let's face it it's not even important enough information for a newspaper to pay A. Source for it. ''A source close to...'' is an old ploy used by newspapers to bulk out an article to make it more interesting. I thought everyone knew that. Why would Clarence Mitchell need to pretend to be A. Source? Sorry but that makes no sense to me.
Correct Benice.
There is only supposition on the part of Faithlilly that Mitchell is the source. And it is not a supposition which stands up to much scrutiny.
When Faithlilly explains why on this occasion Mitchell should choose (unlike on the many, many other occasions when he has been named) to remain anonymous then perhaps it might be worth considering.
I think Faithlilly is probably correct, and the 'source close to the McCann' is Clarence Michelll
I agree with her that, post Leveson, it is highly unlikely that a newspaper would attribute a quote to a McCann source unless it were so
There is something about the familiar use of 'us' and 'we' that has Michell's stamp about it too
My opinion is entirely different.
I think that, post Leveson, it is highly unlikely that a newspaper would attribute a false quote to a NAMED McCann source unless it were accurate, but it is perfectly likely that they would attribute just about anything to UNNAMED sources because that would mean that they will not be challenged for libel.
And I also thing that textual analysis is a valuable forensic tool when done by experts but a wholly unreliable tool when done on non attributable and possibly garbled quotes by amateurs.
Just my opinions, of course.
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 01, 2013, 08:41:23 PM
‘We’d like Mr Verran to explain these omissions from his interviews with us, and say when he was in Portugal,’ said the source.
A direct quote from 'the source', Clarence Mitchell probably. One good thing about the McCanns being so litigious is that the tabloids wouldn't dare attribute a quote to 'a source close to the McCanns' if that wasn't exactly where it had come from.
If you read the article correctly, and take into consideration what the source says after that remark you will understand that the source was talking in the past tense with regards to their conversations with Verran.
Quote
‘It is potentially interesting that this information has now emerged and we will be discussing this development with police.’
What they are saying is that during previous conversations with Verran that the PI's had, he never mentioned anything about his van being stolen.
This is what happens, people use part of the comment attributed to a quote and that is when the information is taken out of context.
What are you rattling on about ? The article makes it clear, through quotes from their source, that the McCanns want to talk to Verran about what has been revealed since their last interview with him. There is no ambiguity and no distortion of context.
So who is this source? Let's face it it's not even important enough information for a newspaper to pay A. Source for it. ''A source close to...'' is an old ploy used by newspapers to bulk out an article to make it more interesting. I thought everyone knew that. Why would Clarence Mitchell need to pretend to be A. Source? Sorry but that makes no sense to me.
Correct Benice.
There is only supposition on the part of Faithlilly that Mitchell is the source. And it is not a supposition which stands up to much scrutiny.
When Faithlilly explains why on this occasion Mitchell should choose (unlike on the many, many other occasions when he has been named) to remain anonymous then perhaps it might be worth considering.
I think Faithlilly is probably correct, and the 'source close to the McCann' is Clarence Michelll
I agree with her that, post Leveson, it is highly unlikely that a newspaper would attribute a quote to a McCann source unless it were so
There is something about the familiar use of 'us' and 'we' that has Michell's stamp about it too
My opinion is entirely different.
I think that, post Leveson, it is highly unlikely that a newspaper would attribute a false quote to a NAMED McCann source unless it were accurate, but it is perfectly likely that they would attribute just about anything to UNNAMED sources because that would mean that they will not be challenged for libel.
And I also thing that textual analysis is a valuable forensic tool when done by experts but a wholly unreliable tool when done on non attributable and possibly garbled quotes by amateurs.
Just my opinions, of course.
Well we'll have to disagree
The quotes from the 'source close to the McCanns' have all the hallmarks of Clarenec Mitchell
The "We will be discussing this development with the police" for instance ... classic Mitchell, giving an air of authority and being 'in control' of events, rather than merely reacting to them. The suggestion that the McCanns can 'discuss' witness statements or operational details with the police any time they choose is pure spin
Title: Re: Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?
Post by: gilet on June 01, 2013, 08:45:27 PM
I think Faithlilly is probably correct, and the 'source close to the McCann' is Clarence Michelll
I agree with her that, post Leveson, it is highly unlikely that a newspaper would attribute a quote to a McCann source unless it were so
There is something about the familiar use of 'us' and 'we' that has Michell's stamp about it too
My opinion is entirely different.
I think that, post Leveson, it is highly unlikely that a newspaper would attribute a false quote to a NAMED McCann source unless it were accurate, but it is perfectly likely that they would attribute just about anything to UNNAMED sources because that would mean that they will not be challenged for libel.
And I also thing that textual analysis is a valuable forensic tool when done by experts but a wholly unreliable tool when done on non attributable and possibly garbled quotes by amateurs.
Just my opinions, of course.
Well we'll have to disagree
The quotes from the 'source close to the McCanns' have all the hallmarks of Clarenec Mitchell
The "We will be discussing this development with the police" for instance ... classic Mitchell, giving an air of authority and being 'in control' of events, rather than merely reacting to them. The suggestion that the McCanns can 'discuss' witness statements or operational details with the police any time they choose is pure spin
I am quite happy to disagree. I have made my point about the kind of amateurish analysis which you are undertaking. And I stand by that. I can see no reason why they would not name Mitchell as he is not shy.
But you are entitled to carry on making such analyses to your hearts content. I doubt they will lead you to the truth as to what happened to Madeleine though.