Do The McCanns Trust Operation Grange to Do the Job ?

[sadie]

angelo,

The very next day, without even going to the scene, or having spoken to the McCanns, Amaral had decided that they were guilty.

Now is that Justice?

[sadie]

Deleted.  Sorry I am having problems

[debunker]

Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE  ??   

No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.

And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.

The whole reason the McCanns were accused and made arguidos was because they weren't believed.  It doesn't take much wit to work out therefore that as far as the PJ was concerned they lied.

As far as I am concerned you are a wind up merchant.

You may or may not be.

The McCanns may or may not be liars.

The views of the PJ do not determine that question.

Therefore to state that the AG stated that they lied is still without foundation.

[ferryman]

In her pre-arguida interview, Kate was asked about Mrs Fenn's apparent account and replied thus:

When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.


And in his arguido interview, Gerry says much the same, except with slight variation you might expect from witnesses who are testifying honestly ...

--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.

[Angelo222]

This is what the AG says about Mrs Fenn :

'Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
 
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did'

So it is Mrs Fenn's evidence that lead the AG to believe that the McCanns were being less than truthful about the regularity of their checks. They say they checked every half an hour, Mrs Fenn, who the AG seems to find a very credible witness, suggests on the night of the 1st of May the children were not checked for over an hour. So for those who suggest that the AG did not imply that the McCanns lied are simply wrong. He most certainly did and the weight he bestows on Mrs Fenn's evidence clearly shows this.

They lied through their teeth because they were shit scared that the PT would do them for child neglect.

[Angelo222]

In her pre-arguida interview, Kate was asked about Mrs Fenn's apparent account and replied thus:

When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.


And in his arguido interview, Gerry says much the same, except with slight variation you might expect from witnesses who are testifying honestly ...

--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.

That's even worse.  So now you are saying that not only did one of the twins cry for an extended period but neither Kate or Gerry could be bothered attending to her.  If Mrs Fenn could hear her and was concerned enough to phone her friend for advice then the McCanns most certainly heard her.  I find this revelation appalling.

[debunker]

This is what the AG says about Mrs Fenn :

'Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.
 
This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did'

So it is Mrs Fenn's evidence that lead the AG to believe that the McCanns were being less than truthful about the regularity of their checks. They say they checked every half an hour, Mrs Fenn, who the AG seems to find a very credible witness, suggests on the night of the 1st of May the children were not checked for over an hour. So for those who suggest that the AG did not imply that the McCanns lied are simply wrong. He most certainly did and the weight he bestows on Mrs Fenn's evidence clearly shows this.

They lied through their teeth because they were shit scared that the PT would do them for child neglect.

In your humble (and defamatory) opinion. That is more libelous than Bercows tweet.

[Mrs. B]

Yes, makes sense, the first thing you'd do if you want to avoid being charged with child neglect, is to immediately tell the police that you did in fact leave your children alone & only checked on them periodically.

 >@@(*&)

[DCI]

That's even worse.  So now you are saying that not only did one of the twins cry for an extended period but neither Kate or Gerry could be bothered attending to her.  If Mrs Fenn could hear her and was concerned enough to phone her friend for advice then the McCanns most certainly heard her.  I find this revelation appalling.

I find it appalling, to think a woman of Mrs Fenn's age, did nothing about it. Only phoned a friend. 
She didn't know who was in 5A, but she supposedly knew it was Madeleine crying, utter BS!
IMO, Mrs Fenn did not make that statement, just as she said, in the news interview.

Phone a friend, 50/50, ask the audience.

[Carana]

In her pre-arguida interview, Kate was asked about Mrs Fenn's apparent account and replied thus:

When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.


And in his arguido interview, Gerry says much the same, except with slight variation you might expect from witnesses who are testifying honestly ...

--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.

That's even worse.  So now you are saying that not only did one of the twins cry for an extended period but neither Kate or Gerry could be bothered attending to her.  If Mrs Fenn could hear her and was concerned enough to phone her friend for advice then the McCanns most certainly heard her.  I find this revelation appalling.

I think that there is a likely translation issue in that sentence.

The original seems to say that he didn't know whether it was the witness (Gerry) or Kate who went to soothe the child.

I.e., not if either had bothered.

[Mrs. B]

Yes, there's a WHO missing in the translation, but not to worry, I'm sure they can take the afternoon off & learn enough Portuguese to do their own translations. 

[sadie]

Before we go too far accusing the Mccanns, can we examine the photo below?

Apartment A is the Mccann apartment
Apartment B is the Oldfield apartrment
Apartment H is the Payne apartment
Therefore three apartments with young children

And apartment G is the Fenn apartment


There are several questions that come to mind for me:

1)  Just where does apartment G finish and apartment H start?  Could it be that the little window is part of Mrs Fenns apartment.  Was she also above the Oldfields?

2)  Her apartment is adjacent to the Payne apartment.

3)  She was old.  Old people are often hard of hearing ... and have one ear better than the other.  I personally cannot detect the direction sound comes from any more.   I think she was about the same age as I am.

So just where did she hear the sound coming from?   


The Mccanns or Oldfields below, or the Paynes to the side ?



Seems to me that had it been Madeleine crying, she would have woken the others and there would have been three wailing voices ....

So ....?

[sadie]

In her pre-arguida interview, Kate was asked about Mrs Fenn's apparent account and replied thus:

When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.


And in his arguido interview, Gerry says much the same, except with slight variation you might expect from witnesses who are testifying honestly ...

--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.

That's even worse.  So now you are saying that not only did one of the twins cry for an extended period but neither Kate or Gerry could be bothered attending to her.  If Mrs Fenn could hear her and was concerned enough to phone her friend for advice then the McCanns most certainly heard her.  I find this revelation appalling.

I think that there is a likely translation issue in that sentence.

The original seems to say that he didn't know whether it was the witness (Gerry) or Kate who went to soothe the child.

I.e., not if either had bothered.

Again personal experience.

My son was a gawd awful sleeper.  I was on the edge of a breakdown thru sleepless nights and constant demands on me.  When he hadn't settled to a nights sleep by the age of about 6, and I was becoming a gibbering mass, we were referred to a consultant.  The first thing that we were told was to ignore the crying.  That he was crying just for attention.  I tried but couldn't stand it after a few minutes 

A neighbour of ours had a lesser problem, with a baby son that cried for attention during the day.  Again the consultants told her to put the baby in a pram in the back garden then go in the house shutting all the windows and ignore it.  Break him of his demanding way.


Really I do not think that people who have not experienced this problem should be judgemental over a few minutes crying.  If it carries on for a long time, then yes find out what the matter is.

[Angelo222]

In her pre-arguida interview, Kate was asked about Mrs Fenn's apparent account and replied thus:

When asked about the fact her daughter had been crying on the night of the Tuesday for one hour and 15 minutes, between 10:30 and 11:45, she says it is not true. She says that on that night, after midnight, Madeleine went to their room and said that her sister Amelie was crying, and sleep with her and Gerry in their room. She says that before Madeleine appeared in their room, she had already heard Amelie crying, however she did not go to the room, as Madeleine went to the room almost at the same time she head the crying. She does not remember if afterwards she or Gerry went to the childrens' room, however she states that Amelie cried for a short time.


And in his arguido interview, Gerry says much the same, except with slight variation you might expect from witnesses who are testifying honestly ...

--- When asked, he says that on one night, he cannot say which, Madeleine slept in his room in his bed. He thinks it might have been shortly after their arrival at the apartment. Madeleine came to his room saying that Amelie was crying and she couldn't sleep. He thinks that he hadn't heard crying before, and was alerted to this by Madeleine. He does not know if he or his wife comforted Amelie. That night Madeleine slept in his bed.

That's even worse.  So now you are saying that not only did one of the twins cry for an extended period but neither Kate or Gerry could be bothered attending to her.  If Mrs Fenn could hear her and was concerned enough to phone her friend for advice then the McCanns most certainly heard her.  I find this revelation appalling.

I think that there is a likely translation issue in that sentence.

The original seems to say that he didn't know whether it was the witness (Gerry) or Kate who went to soothe the child.

I.e., not if either had bothered.

You will be telling me next that there is a translation problem with Mrs Fenn too and she was English.  She knew what she heard and she also knew when the patio door beneath her apartment opened and closed and the crying stopped.  Over an hour she said and was concerned enough to telephone her friend for advice as to what to do??  As a parent I find this appalling behaviour by the parents of young children and what makes it worse is that they are both qualified medical doctors who should have know better.

[faithlilly]

Challenge for you Debunker...you claim the AG didn't infer they lied...please prove it...CITE  ??   

No. The original asserter needs to prove it. They need to bring the original statement in Portuguese to the site rather than an inadequate translation by an amateur. The Portuguese word for lying does not appear in the original.

And no one claimed the word 'lied' was used. The meaning of the words that were used by the AG mean exactly that however.

Your post above:

"The AG also said the McCanns had lied about how often they checked on their children and that, by not taking part in he reconstruction, they had also failed to prove their innocence. Do you also agree with him on these points ?"

So have I claimed the word 'lied' was used in the dispatch ? The AG's words, however, carry the same meaning.

CIte for an accurate translation. If he did not use the word 'lie', what word did he use. The truth of the matter is that you do not know, so assume the worst for the McCanns as is your bias and the bias of the translators- this comes up time and again!.

If you want to insist that the AG said the McCanns lied (or anything close to it), please produce the original document.

And producing the original document would move the debate forward how ? You can't speak Portuguese so unless you are going bring a reputable, human,  translator, acceptable to both sides, to translate it, what would be the point ?