Should the Germans Have Dropped Their Investigation By Now?

[Mr Gray]

From what I've seen it may well be that Grime and Harrison invented the whole idea of remnant scent in 2005...prior to that cadaver dogs were used to find victims..
If that is true it would make the whole PDL search nothing more than an experiment

[The General]

Anyone ever heard of remnant scent drug dogs.. Remnant scent explosive dogs.. And their evidence used in court

Yes. All the time. Dogs (and perhaps ferrets) regularly trace minute vestiges of all manner of substances, which are then subsequently corroborated as being the correct location of previous, temporary storage.
Do you want me to trawl the internet looking for one? I can't be arsed really, but, you know, if you're going to insist I will begrudgingly have a look, but, Dav, I'm a busy man. I've got a full pan of chips on over here mate, give us a break.

[Venturi Swirl]

Anyone ever heard of remnant scent drug dogs.. Remnant scent explosive dogs.. And their evidence used in court

Yes, I believe a drug dog alerted to a traveller at Dubai airport who was flung in jail because a poppy seed from his bread roll had adhered itself to his clothing.  Not sure if that counts as remnant scent though as the seed was present.  Also dogs can alert to banknotes that have been used for snorting cocaine, again not sure if this counts as cocaine residue may still be present on the notes.

[Mr Gray]

Yes, I believe a drug dog alerted to a traveller at Dubai airport who was flung in jail because a poppy seed from his bread roll had adhered itself to his clothing.  Not sure if that counts as remnant scent though as the seed was present.  Also dogs can alert to banknotes that have been used for snorting cocaine, again not sure if this counts as cocaine residue may still be present on the notes.

They will be alerting to cocaine residue still present on the notes

[The General]

From what I've seen it may well be that Grime and Harrison invented the whole idea of remnant scent in 2005...prior to that cadaver dogs were used to find victims

I don't think you actually believe that.
Your friend and mine, Dr. Cassella has confirmed it's existence and efficacy - remember the body buried in an earth embankment in the woods in his 'soil transference' paper?
I'm told he's quite accessible, maybe we could email him - when I'm not too busy.

[The General]

They will be alerting to cocaine residue still present on the notes

So you want a case of dogs alerting the what, the 'essence' of cocaine? Isn't cocaine a solid? Cadaverine is a liquid isn't it, an amine?

[The General]

All that tells us is that the dogs will recognise cadaver odour on carpet squares 95 per cent of the time.
That wasn't the situation in the apt

Just got on to this. Let me get this right; you dismiss any test of the efficacy of the dogs if that test doesn't accurately match the exact circumstances of the method of use of the dogs particular to that case?
So you'd propose that, for any 'evidence' or 'testimony' to be used derived from dog searches, you'd want a full-scale mock up of Apartment 5a and the parking garage, complete with all furnishings and environmental conditions? Then what, a dead body rolled around the floor in a couple of spots? Maybe rubbed on Cuddle Cat or some checked peddle pushers that look like they might belong to a dwarf chef?

[Mr Gray]

So you want a case of dogs alerting the what, the 'essence' of cocaine? Isn't cocaine a solid? Cadaverine is a liquid isn't it, an amine?

Whenever dogs alert to any substance hey are alerting to the vapour produced...not the substance if its  a solid or  al iquid...remember who the scientist is

[Mr Gray]

Just got on to this. Let me get this right; you dismiss any test of the efficacy of the dogs if that test doesn't accurately match the exact circumstances of the method of use of the dogs particular to that case?
So you'd propose that, for any 'evidence' or 'testimony' to be used derived from dog searches, you'd want a full-scale mock up of Apartment 5a and the parking garage, complete with all furnishings and environmental conditions? Then what, a dead body rolled around the floor in a couple of spots? Maybe rubbed on Cuddle Cat or some checked peddle pushers that look like they might belong to a dwarf chef?

you are getting close to how science and testing work. Dogs need to be tested under the conditions taht they work.
there was a test carried out with expolosive dogs...its been posted here....where  explosive residue was planted in a house and several dogs used to find the location. several dogs did...problem was there was never any residue palnted...the handlers cued the dogs

[Eleanor]

From what I've seen it may well be that Grime and Harrison invented the whole idea of remnant scent in 2005...prior to that cadaver dogs were used to find victims..
If that is true it would make the whole PDL search nothing more than an experiment

Which I believe it was.

[The General]

you are getting close to how science and testing work. Dogs need to be tested under the conditions taht they work.
there was a test carried out with expolosive dogs...its been posted here....where  explosive residue was planted in a house and several dogs used to find the location. several dogs did...problem was there was never any residue palnted...the handlers cued the dogs

So in my example you'd also like it to be conducted double blind?
How would we be sure we could accurately replicate the exact conditions present in 5a at the time of the search?
How far do we go? And are you then suggesting that, because the use of cadaver dogs have not been scientifically tested these exacting, and probably impossible, standards, that their results should be inadmissible?
I'm the 'reasonable doubt' king - it's on my business card despite me having nothing to do with criminal defence, but even I'd be hard pushed to try that one, arguing on such tenuous a premise.

[The General]

Which I believe it was.

In what way?

[Venturi Swirl]

I'd be interested to know how often dogs make false positive alerts on actual searches for missing people and / or bodies.  I bet there's no data on that available.  I recall watching a programme last year (which I have referred to before) in which a cadaver dog was being used (in Scotland I think) and it alerted to a dead bird whilst searching for a missing person.  The handler explained it was just a dead bird and rewarded the dog for finding it, which I found quite bizarre.

[The General]

I'd be interested to know how often dogs make false positive alerts on actual searches for missing people and / or bodies.  I bet there's no data on that available.  I recall watching a programme last year (which I have referred to before) in which a cadaver dog was being used (in Scotland I think) and it alerted to a dead bird whilst searching for a missing person.  The handler explained it was just a dead bird and rewarded the dog for finding it, which I found quite bizarre.

In all serious, I'd also like to see that. Unfortunately charlatans and blaggards will exploit anything emerging, and this is the case with both cadaver dogs and 'sniffer dogs' more generally. I believe the Washington Sniper case was virtually cracked with the assistance of an unlicensed, untrained sniffer dog handler, for example, so there's cases for both sides.
I do know that the testing in their use and efficacy is being developed all the time, just like anything 'novel' I suppose.
Dogs are not infallible, that's a given for me, but I'd cast doubt on the assertion that they are 'incredibly unreliable'.

[Venturi Swirl]

In all serious, I'd also like to see that. Unfortunately charlatans and blaggards will exploit anything emerging, and this is the case with both cadaver dogs and 'sniffer dogs' more generally. I believe the Washington Sniper case was virtually cracked with the assistance of an unlicensed, untrained sniffer dog handler, for example, so there's cases for both sides.
I do know that the testing in their use and efficacy is being developed all the time, just like anything 'novel' I suppose.
Dogs are not infallible, that's a given for me, but I'd cast doubt on the assertion that they are 'incredibly unreliable'.

Any amount of unreliable is enough for reasonable doubt.  And in most cases it's not the dogs abilities that are in doubt, it's the handler's input - IMO.