Should the Germans Have Dropped Their Investigation By Now?

[The General]

Any amount of unreliable is enough for reasonable doubt.  And in most cases it's not the dogs abilities that are in doubt, it's the handler's input - IMO.

It is fraught with difficulty and unreliability, granted. The relationship between the dog and the handler and the manner in which the dog was developed both carry an inherent bias. If there was a way to take the variable of the handler out of the process, reliability would be more certain. Certainly EVRD dogs are let off the leash and are given very little direction - that would be an ideal situation.

[Mr Gray]

In all serious, I'd also like to see that. Unfortunately charlatans and blaggards will exploit anything emerging, and this is the case with both cadaver dogs and 'sniffer dogs' more generally. I believe the Washington Sniper case was virtually cracked with the assistance of an unlicensed, untrained sniffer dog handler, for example, so there's cases for both sides.
I do know that the testing in their use and efficacy is being developed all the time, just like anything 'novel' I suppose.
Dogs are not infallible, that's a given for me, but I'd cast doubt on the assertion that they are 'incredibly unreliable'.

no evidential RELIABILITY...from the man himself.

You only have to look at what eddie actually acheived in his whole career to see the real value of cadaver dogs in these  situations. They have  a use but as s everal experts have said ...they can also divert the investigation...as wassaid in Jersey...massive excavations oin the strength of an alert...and nothing of any use found

[The General]

no evidential RELIABILITY...from the man himself.

You only have to look at what eddie actually acheived in his whole career to see the real value of cadaver dogs in these  situations. They have  a use but as s everal experts have said ...they can also divert the investigation...as wassaid in Jersey...massive excavations oin the strength of an alert...and nothing of any use found

So, if you were an investigating body, would you have used them or not in the MM case?
By 'them' I mean any blood or cadaver dog / team.

[Mr Gray]

So, if you were an investigating body, would you have used them or not in the MM case?
By 'them' I mean any blood or cadaver dog / team.

I dont see any point.  I think it was part of the new idea of Harrison and Grime to gain case intelligence. ...the idea referred to in Grimes white paper.

can anyone find any reference to residual cadaver scent prior to 2005.



In 2005 it was realised that detection canines may be of assistance to the law enforcement investigation of homicide and allegations of abduction where the pace of investigations is of paramount importance. Innovative method and ‘out of the box thinking by the UK National Search Manager introduced Human Scent Trailing, Human Blood Detection and Victim Recovery Dogs (now collectively designated as Forensic Canines) within critical case investigations to ascertain whether or not they could provide case intelligence.

[Mr Gray]

However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.


Harrison makes it clear that no inference can be drawn without physical evidence

[kizzy]

He had a connection ...he wasnt astranger..tahts the difference. Can  you quote one case where a murderer who commits his first murder has murdered before...dont think too long

Ah so basically you are saying there can be a first time for everything. - for whatever reason

A lot of people believe the mccs because they don't think them capable of doing such a horrendous thing as disposing of Maddie being involved in some way. IMO

But your reckoning IMO then a first time for everything if needs must or desperation for that first time act - whatever that may be.

[G-Unit]

I dont see any point.  I think it was part of the new idea of Harrison and Grime to gain case intelligence. ...the idea referred to in Grimes white paper.

can anyone find any reference to residual cadaver scent prior to 2005.



In 2005 it was realised that detection canines may be of assistance to the law enforcement investigation of homicide and allegations of abduction where the pace of investigations is of paramount importance. Innovative method and ‘out of the box thinking by the UK National Search Manager introduced Human Scent Trailing, Human Blood Detection and Victim Recovery Dogs (now collectively designated as Forensic Canines) within critical case investigations to ascertain whether or not they could provide case intelligence.

On page 45 of that paper Grime says;

"To my knowledge a victim has never been found alive in a case where the author's VRD team has provided a related positive final response."

[Mr Gray]

Ah so basically you are saying there can be a first time for everything. - for whatever reason

A lot of people believe the mccs because they don't think them capable of doing such a horrendous thing as disposing of Maddie being involved in some way. IMO

But your reckoning IMO then a first time for everything if needs must or desperation for that first time act - whatever that may be.

it looks like you ahve now accepted you are wrong....theres no  evidence whatsoever maddie died in an accident..none. the mccanns are no longer suspects and ther enever wa s any rael evidence against them. ther is lots of evidence since to show they were not involved...end of

[The General]

I dont see any point.  I think it was part of the new idea of Harrison and Grime to gain case intelligence. ...the idea referred to in Grimes white paper.

can anyone find any reference to residual cadaver scent prior to 2005.



In 2005 it was realised that detection canines may be of assistance to the law enforcement investigation of homicide and allegations of abduction where the pace of investigations is of paramount importance. Innovative method and ‘out of the box thinking by the UK National Search Manager introduced Human Scent Trailing, Human Blood Detection and Victim Recovery Dogs (now collectively designated as Forensic Canines) within critical case investigations to ascertain whether or not they could provide case intelligence.

Professor Cassella appointed Martin Grime as an Honorary Research Fellow not too long ago, as I recall. He gave him a glowing testimonial.
Seems he has more faith in him than you.

[Mr Gray]

On page 45 of that paper Grime says;

"To my knowledge a victim has never been found alive in a case where the author's VRD team has provided a related positive final response."

if grime thinks thats any kind of scientific evidence hes wrong...its more anectdotal rubbish and shows he doesnt understand science.

[Mr Gray]

Professor Cassella appointed Martin Grime as an Honorary Research Fellow not too long ago, as I recall. He gave him a glowing testimonial.
Seems he has more faith in him than you.

how long ago ...in the Pillay podcast hes certainly at odds with grimes ides

[The General]

how long ago ...in the Pillay podcast hes certainly at odds with grimes ides

2018.
Looks like our favourite professor has a favourite dog handler.

[Venturi Swirl]

On page 45 of that paper Grime says;

"To my knowledge a victim has never been found alive in a case where the author's VRD team has provided a related positive final response."

Which author? 

[kizzy]

it looks like you ahve now accepted you are wrong....theres no  evidence whatsoever maddie died in an accident..none. the mccanns are no longer suspects and ther enever wa s any rael evidence against them. ther is lots of evidence since to show they were not involved...end of

There is absolutely no evidence to say Maddie was abducted either. [sorry not understand the rest of your post D]

[Venturi Swirl]

The public should be aware that detection canine responses do not confirm criminal behaviour or identify suspects. They merely identify possible sources of odour transference or trace evidence, and assist investigators develop intelligence of possible scenarios concerning suspected homicide and abduction. This is completed as early as is possible within the investigative stages. It is incumbent upon investigators to establish the facts and prosecutors to apply the law.
http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/4750/