Poll - Scent Dogs Accuracy

[AnneGuedes]

Inside or out does not matter. What does is the low success rate.

The highest claimed rate of one false result in ten; I suspect it is much lower.

The Clever Hans experiment is the most worrying indicating considerable handler cuing.

No, the scent isn't preserved as well outside than inside.
All professionals are aware of the Rosenthal effect. The PDL operation was supervised by Prof Harrison MBE. There was no motive for that effect to occur, but all motives for the dogs and the handler's reputation to be confirmed. A negative was as informative as a positive, Prof Harrison MBE, when he sent the dogs to the flat, knew there was no cadaver there, buried in a wall or under the floor.

[AnneGuedes]

Certified does not include a valid test regime. It is an assessment of training and competence, not of accuracy. No such tests for Eddie or Keela have been published.

Tests don't have to be published, these dogs and their handler came under the responsibility and caution of the late NPIA, there were not your neighbour's dogs, trained for fun during week ends with a bit of rotten pig.

[Aiofe]

Tests don't have to be published, these dogs and their handler came under the responsibility and caution of the late NPIA, there were not your neighbour's dogs, trained for fun during week ends with a bit of rotten pig.

Which means nothing.

We have no way of knowing how accurate they were- even their handler never claims an accuracy rate. They obviously make errors like all scent dogs.

[AnneGuedes]

As soon as the door was open the dog changed drastically its behaviour, which left no doubt for his handler. The volatile molecules had been caught by the nose's receptors of the dog. Much more than this couldn't be said. But that was certainly intelligence.

[Aiofe]

As soon as the door was open the dog changed drastically its behaviour, which left no doubt for his handler. The volatile molecules had been caught by the nose's receptors of the dog. Much more than this couldn't be said. But that was certainly intelligence.

Which is considerably less than usable evidence. The science says that the dogs are unreliable- wrong in identifying the smell of death from one time in ten to every time.

If the dogs were so accurate, the MP and PJ would not be wasting their time investigating abduction.

[Benice]

Annes post
As soon as the door was open the dog changed drastically its behaviour, which left no doubt for his handler. The volatile molecules had been caught by the nose's receptors of the dog. Much more than this couldn't be said. But that was certainly intelligence.

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Which is considerably less than usable evidence. The science says that the dogs are unreliable- wrong in identifying the smell of death from one time in ten to every time.

If the dogs were so accurate, the MP and PJ would not be wasting their time investigating abduction.

In one of the videos, Eddie gets very excited around a bed and keeps going round it and then he (or it could have been Keela) gets very excited about what is behind a sideboard and keeps going back to it.      At the end of the video Grime explains that upon investigation they found food under the bed and a ball behind the sideboard - so it would seem the dogs 'getting excited' - doesn't only apply to the scents they are trained to find.
 
One wonders why - being such highly trained dogs, that they did not simply ignore the scent of food under a bed and the scent of a ball behind a sideboard.

[AnneGuedes]

Which is considerably less than usable evidence. The science says that the dogs are unreliable- wrong in identifying the smell of death from one time in ten to every time.

If the dogs were so accurate, the MP and PJ would not be wasting their time investigating abduction.

Aiofe, it is not "considerably less than usable evidence", it is simply no evidence !
No remains, no case !

[Aiofe]

Aiofe, it is not "considerably less than usable evidence", it is simply no evidence !
No remains, no case !

Sorry to split hairs, but any claimed fact or object is evidence. Whether or not it is usable, reliable, acceptable in court etc is a matter for discussion, but all facts and objects are evidence.

[AnneGuedes]

Sorry to split hairs, but any claimed fact or object is evidence. Whether or not it is usable, reliable, acceptable in court etc is a matter for discussion, but all facts and objects are evidence.

That's not what Prof Harrison says in one of his three reports : it calls it "intelligence" and that sounds fair to me.

[Aiofe]

That's not what Prof Harrison says in one of his three reports : it calls it "intelligence" and that sounds fair to me.

I recommend a good dictionary.

[icabodcrane]

Which is considerably less than usable evidence. The science says that the dogs are unreliable- wrong in identifying the smell of death from one time in ten to every time.

If the dogs were so accurate, the MP and PJ would not be wasting their time investigating abduction.

If the dogs are as unreliable as you suggest,  why were they paid more than a Chief of police   ? 

Indeed,  why would they be used at  ALL   ? 

The dogs' evidence  (  and it IS evidence, regardless of there being no conclusive forensic material found  )   has always been,  and remains, the biggest thorn in the McCanns' side

[Aiofe]

If the dogs are as unreliable as you suggest,  why were they paid more than a Chief of police   ? 

Indeed,  why would they be used at  ALL   ? 

The dogs' evidence  (  and it IS evidence, regardless of there being no conclusive forensic material found  )   has always been,  and remains, the biggest thorn in the McCanns' side

They were not- that was a tabloid myth/lie. Unless you can provide a cite.

They are indicative- they have the ability possibly to increase above pure chance a location to search for usable evidence. Their handler agrees.

[icabodcrane]

They were not- that was a tabloid myth/lie. Unless you can provide a cite.

They are indicative- they have the ability possibly to increase above pure chance a location to search for usable evidence. Their handler agrees.

And yet,  despite an  international search for a legal precedent regarding  the 'unreliability, of cadaver dogs the only case the McCanns' lawyers could come up with was  Zapata

Gerry confidently recited the Judge's findings  (  that the dogs were unreliable  )  giving a detailed description of the tests the dogs were set  ...  and the statistical conclusion

Except,  of course,   Zapata subsequently confessed that he   had  murdered his wife  (  and  chopped her body up before disposing of the parts in various landfill sites  ) 

The  ONLY  case they were ever able to cite as  'proof'  of cadaver dogs' unreliability  (  and they had to go as far as the USA to find it )  ...   and it turned out the dog was right all along  ! 

[Aiofe]

And yet,  despite an  international search for a legal precedent regarding  the 'unreliability, of cadaver dogs the only case the McCanns' lawyers could come up with was  Zapata

Gerry confidently recited the Judge's findings  (  that the dogs were unreliable  )  giving a detailed description of the tests the dogs were set  ...  and the statistical conclusion

Except,  of course,   Zapata subsequently confessed that he   had  murdered his wife  (  and  chopped her body up before disposing of the parts in various landfill sites  ) 

The  ONLY  case they were ever able to cite as  'proof'  of cadaver dogs' unreliability  (  and they had to go as far as the USA to find it )  ...   and it turned out the dog was right all along  !

There are several scientific investigations, none of which support infallibility.

Zapata is one case among many. Eddie and kEELA WERE NOT CONFIRMED TO BE RIGHT IN pDl OR jERSEY.

What do you make of the Clever Hans experiment- 30% positive IDs to no scent at all- just because the handlers thought they knew which place was contaminated.

[icabodcrane]

There are several scientific investigations, none of which support infallibility.

Zapata is one case among many. Eddie and kEELA WERE NOT CONFIRMED TO BE RIGHT IN pDl OR jERSEY.

What do you make of the Clever Hans experiment- 30% positive IDs to no scent at all- just because the handlers thought they knew which place was contaminated.

The one about the horse that could do sums  ? 

Xrist  ...  even the McCanns weren't desperate enough to cite that  as some sort of evidence against the cadaver dog that alerted in an apartment where a missing child was last seen