Author Topic: The Defence Will State Their Case  (Read 592636 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline mrswah

  • Senior Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2169
  • Total likes: 796
  • Thinking outside the box, as usual-------
Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3540 on: March 23, 2019, 05:34:05 PM »
If it was a frenzied attack then I could understand there being DNA present in the flat but why would you expect them to find his DNA? How much was Joanna bleeding? There may have been traces however, once he admitted the crime, why would they even look for blood or DNA? It was on her body and in his car. The absence of it in his and her flat, doesn't exonerate him, nor does it mean that because they didn't find any that none was present. His trial was never about whether he killed her, it was to determine murder or manslaughter. And the DID mention the  forensic evidence, it being present on her body was all they needed.

Why would they need a psychiatric report? If none exists it's because it wasn't requested.



Well, they were certainly looking for forensics in Joanna's flat( and probably in VT's too. ). Why remove the front door? Why have all those forensic experts going in and out? They had a sample of VT's DNA well before he told the chaplain that he was going to plead guilty, and Joanna's flat had been examined well before he decided to plead guilty. I remember reading (somewhere) that the DNA samples they found would not have been enough to convict him, so why wouldn't they have looked for better forensic evidence?  He might have pleaded not guilty, after all.


The fact that none was found in the flat doesn't necessarily mean that VT is innocent, but It could well mean that he lied about where he killed Joanna. If he lied about that on the stand, what else might he have lied about? His testimony could be a complete fabrication, for all we know. He could have been covering for somebody. He could have been given medication in prison that led him to believe he did it when he didn't. Anything is possible.


The lack of forensics in both flats is a big sticking point for me.

Offline APRIL

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3541 on: March 23, 2019, 06:12:52 PM »


Well, they were certainly looking for forensics in Joanna's flat( and probably in VT's too. ). Why remove the front door? Why have all those forensic experts going in and out? They had a sample of VT's DNA well before he told the chaplain that he was going to plead guilty, and Joanna's flat had been examined well before he decided to plead guilty. I remember reading (somewhere) that the DNA samples they found would not have been enough to convict him, so why wouldn't they have looked for better forensic evidence?  He might have pleaded not guilty, after all.


The fact that none was found in the flat doesn't necessarily mean that VT is innocent, but It could well mean that he lied about where he killed Joanna. If he lied about that on the stand, what else might he have lied about? His testimony could be a complete fabrication, for all we know. He could have been covering for somebody. He could have been given medication in prison that led him to believe he did it when he didn't. Anything is possible.


The lack of forensics in both flats is a big sticking point for me.


"He could have been given medication in prison that led him to believe it when he didn't"? Really?!!!!! Are you suggesting he was A) suffering some sort of illness which required him to be medicated with mind altering drugs B) ensuring he confessed to a crime he didn't commit? Surely, had they wanted a culprit, Christopher Jefferys would have been the obvious answer. The media and general public had already tried him and found him guilty.

Offline Real justice

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3542 on: March 23, 2019, 06:23:53 PM »


Well, they were certainly looking for forensics in Joanna's flat( and probably in VT's too. ). Why remove the front door? Why have all those forensic experts going in and out? They had a sample of VT's DNA well before he told the chaplain that he was going to plead guilty, and Joanna's flat had been examined well before he decided to plead guilty. I remember reading (somewhere) that the DNA samples they found would not have been enough to convict him, so why wouldn't they have looked for better forensic evidence?  He might have pleaded not guilty, after all.


The fact that none was found in the flat doesn't necessarily mean that VT is innocent, but It could well mean that he lied about where he killed Joanna. If he lied about that on the stand, what else might he have lied about? His testimony could be a complete fabrication, for all we know. He could have been covering for somebody. He could have been given medication in prison that led him to believe he did it when he didn't. Anything is possible.


The lack of forensics in both flats is a big sticking point for me.
Looking for it and finding it are two different things, they still work the case once they have charged someone you know, they look for more evidence to beef up their original charge and to try and get a better understanding of want went off, Tabak would not have told them the whole truth because he was trying for manslaughter, so the detectives would be looking further into events to beef up the murder charge.  The DNA samples coupled with the blood in the car and the findings on the computer would easy have convicted Tabak, make no mistake about that, there is a lot of bartering goes on between prosecution and defence (With Tabak’s approval) as to what they will try and get put to jury then it’s up to the judge, so with Tabak confessing to manslaughter I would say the judge dropped the computer (porn and snuff) evidence from the jury for Tabak admitting he had killed her .  It was his only chance to try for a lighter sentence 8 years instead of life, if he had not confessed to his crime it would have been straight murder trial or not murder, which based on all the evidence thrown at him he knows he had no chance.

Hope this helps

Offline mrswah

  • Senior Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2169
  • Total likes: 796
  • Thinking outside the box, as usual-------
Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3543 on: March 23, 2019, 07:09:59 PM »

"He could have been given medication in prison that led him to believe it when he didn't"? Really?!!!!! Are you suggesting he was A) suffering some sort of illness which required him to be medicated with mind altering drugs B) ensuring he confessed to a crime he didn't commit? Surely, had they wanted a culprit, Christopher Jefferys would have been the obvious answer. The media and general public had already tried him and found him guilty.

He was on suicide watch, so there must have been some fears for his mental health. I dare say he was medicated with something, and quite possibly sleep deprived too.  People who are "new" to prison are not likely to be in a good way.

He might even have been mentally ill-----that is why I wondered about aa psychiatric report.

Offline mrswah

  • Senior Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2169
  • Total likes: 796
  • Thinking outside the box, as usual-------
Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3544 on: March 23, 2019, 07:15:40 PM »
Looking for it and finding it are two different things, they still work the case once they have charged someone you know, they look for more evidence to beef up their original charge and to try and get a better understanding of want went off, Tabak would not have told them the whole truth because he was trying for manslaughter, so the detectives would be looking further into events to beef up the murder charge.  The DNA samples coupled with the blood in the car and the findings on the computer would easy have convicted Tabak, make no mistake about that, there is a lot of bartering goes on between prosecution and defence (With Tabak’s approval) as to what they will try and get put to jury then it’s up to the judge, so with Tabak confessing to manslaughter I would say the judge dropped the computer (porn and snuff) evidence from the jury for Tabak admitting he had killed her .  It was his only chance to try for a lighter sentence 8 years instead of life, if he had not confessed to his crime it would have been straight murder trial or not murder, which based on all the evidence thrown at him he knows he had no chance.

Hope this helps

Have you read William Clegg's book "Under the Wig"?  He says that it was actually him who persuaded the judge to rule the porn evidence inadmissible.

I would have thought that, had he killed Joanna in her flat, there would be rather a lot of forensic evidence there, to be honest.

Offline APRIL

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3545 on: March 23, 2019, 07:44:33 PM »
He was on suicide watch, so there must have been some fears for his mental health. I dare say he was medicated with something, and quite possibly sleep deprived too.  People who are "new" to prison are not likely to be in a good way.

He might even have been mentally ill-----that is why I wondered about aa psychiatric report.

Without a doubt he had a personality disorder, but such doesn't necessarily equate with mental illness. and no amount of medication will cure it.

Offline Real justice

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3546 on: March 23, 2019, 08:25:43 PM »
Have you read William Clegg's book "Under the Wig"?  He says that it was actually him who persuaded the judge to rule the porn evidence inadmissible.

I would have thought that, had he killed Joanna in her flat, there would be rather a lot of forensic evidence there, to be honest.
Thanks for that Mrswah, I haven’t read his book but it was obvious what went on.  To me that makes it very clear, Tabak would have been told and he would have known the evidence against him was very very strong and his only option was to try for manslaughter.  It was a clever move by Clegg and it nearly paid off with a 10 to 2 verdict, but you imagine what the majority would have been if, the jury was told that Tabak had been viewing snuff videos the morning of the murder, girls resembling Joanna being strangled and they would have seen these videos, then they are told about the child porn images, the prosecution would have had a field day with this evidence.

So before any case goes before a jury or court, there is a lot of bartering goes on, defence will ask prosecution will they accept certain verdicts or can they have evidence removed if their client accepts lower charges and depending on how strong the evidence the prosecution will either accept or refuse.  So in Tabak’s case they would have been asked, if he pleads guilty to killing Joanna will you accept manslaughter, they refused and went for murder, but this then allowed Tabak to try for manslaughter.

I don’t think Tabak was in the flat long enough or put himself about to leave any DNA, the DNA would probably only been on the body, he probably didn’t touch anything else, we only have Tabak’s word so part of what he says will be true and some will be near to the truth.  There are parts that only Tabak knows about, that is why the police would still be searching for evidence even after charging him.  The actual killing was the thrill for him and what he did after who knows, but once the thrill has gone the panic would start and the cover up.  He could have took her body straight into his flat and got his sexual kick in there, it would have given him a better chance of clean up.  Some things on stand he would have said to the jury to gain a bit of sympathy, “I put her body on the bed” meaning I was looking after her, but I bet he didn’t.

Offline Real justice

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3547 on: March 23, 2019, 08:35:59 PM »
He was on suicide watch, so there must have been some fears for his mental health. I dare say he was medicated with something, and quite possibly sleep deprived too.  People who are "new" to prison are not likely to be in a good way.

He might even have been mentally ill-----that is why I wondered about aa psychiatric report.
I would say most first timers are put on suicide watch, it’s a big shock for them, every prisoner who sexually assault or kill women  plus the fact because he was high profile and a target would have special attention, remember being on remand is slightly different to being in prison, he can wear his own clothes and he can have his own doctor visit him, of course he would be depressed and upset so the doctors would prescribe medication for this.

Offline mrswah

  • Senior Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2169
  • Total likes: 796
  • Thinking outside the box, as usual-------
Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3548 on: March 23, 2019, 09:08:12 PM »
Thanks for that Mrswah, I haven’t read his book but it was obvious what went on.  To me that makes it very clear, Tabak would have been told and he would have known the evidence against him was very very strong and his only option was to try for manslaughter.  It was a clever move by Clegg and it nearly paid off with a 10 to 2 verdict, but you imagine what the majority would have been if, the jury was told that Tabak had been viewing snuff videos the morning of the murder, girls resembling Joanna being strangled and they would have seen these videos, then they are told about the child porn images, the prosecution would have had a field day with this evidence.

So before any case goes before a jury or court, there is a lot of bartering goes on, defence will ask prosecution will they accept certain verdicts or can they have evidence removed if their client accepts lower charges and depending on how strong the evidence the prosecution will either accept or refuse.  So in Tabak’s case they would have been asked, if he pleads guilty to killing Joanna will you accept manslaughter, they refused and went for murder, but this then allowed Tabak to try for manslaughter.

I don’t think Tabak was in the flat long enough or put himself about to leave any DNA, the DNA would probably only been on the body, he probably didn’t touch anything else, we only have Tabak’s word so part of what he says will be true and some will be near to the truth.  There are parts that only Tabak knows about, that is why the police would still be searching for evidence even after charging him.  The actual killing was the thrill for him and what he did after who knows, but once the thrill has gone the panic would start and the cover up.  He could have took her body straight into his flat and got his sexual kick in there, it would have given him a better chance of clean up.  Some things on stand he would have said to the jury to gain a bit of sympathy, “I put her body on the bed” meaning I was looking after her, but I bet he didn’t.


He did say that he turned off the oven and the TV, and that he hung his coat on the stand in the hall, so he would have , at least, left fingerprints.

Offline Caroline

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3549 on: March 24, 2019, 01:20:55 AM »

He did say that he turned off the oven and the TV, and that he hung his coat on the stand in the hall, so he would have , at least, left fingerprints.

He may well have done but fingerprints are easily smudged and so not always identifiable. He made much of being in the hallway of JY's flat before the murders. He said he said he was there with CJ - perhaps most of what happened happened in the hallway which is why he introduced that fact so if DNA etc. was found there, there would be a reason.

Offline Real justice

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3550 on: March 24, 2019, 07:36:39 AM »

He did say that he turned off the oven and the TV, and that he hung his coat on the stand in the hall, so he would have , at least, left fingerprints.
Caroline has explained the coat,  but fibres of his black coat were found on Joanna.

But Lickley said traces of DNA matching Tabak's were found on Yeates's breast and on her jeans, underneath her knees, indicating he probably held her by the legs as he carried her body.

Traces of Yeates's blood were discovered in the boot of Tabak's car, the court heard. Fibres found on Yeates's body indicated she had come into contact with Tabak's black coat and his silver Renault Mégane, the prosecution claimed



 I would say He killed her, then went back to his flat to plan his cover up, he had got a decision to make does he leave her body there or does he remove it from the flat.   Removing it distances himself from the scene.  The narrative being he’s left the door open, he tells you this in his statement, if he shuts it he can’t get back in, he then carriy’s her body into his flat, if he didn’t do this he would have said “I took the bicycle bag to put her body in inside the flat”  so he’s telling the truth about bringing the body to the flat because then he would have said “ I then carried it to the car”  but no he took the body into his flat and then put the body inside the cover then he takes it to the car. He then leaves the door open so he can go back in to switch the oven off and tv off. This would be Easy for him to switch off and not leave prints,  either with a remote control, or at the plug socket switch, or at source, wearing gloves or with an instrument. 

 By Leaving the body in the flat  it would have been risky and would  have been a murder investigation straight away, crime scene evidence sought and looked for  straight away, but Joanna was a missing person and   lots of people go missing so it wasn’t as urgent straight away, so vital evidence would have been lost due to this..  This gives him time to distance himself from the crime and scene,  but he would still worried what evidence he might have left inside the flat because once he had closed the door to the flat he would not be able to  get back in.

Joanna must have made it back to the flat, her coat boots keys and phone and the Tesco receipt all being found in the flat, items  she had on her in the evening, she still had the same clothing on what she went out in that night when she was found, minus her coat and boots ect,it was freezing cold and snow, not a chance would she have gone out with these items and forget the rubbish about a receipt making device and Tabak being related, because that tells me, this is someone not wanting to believe what happened, I’m sorry but there is a big difference in not understanding what happened and not wanting to believe what happened.

 If you want to Forget about his confession, forget the DNA and  the fibres and the blood in the car,  I think the evidence on the computer would have been damaging enough  for him, he knew this and so did his defence that’s why he tried for manslaughter, once he admitted guilt they didn’t need to show he had done it, they had to prove  it was murder and not manslaughter.  The police would have know down to the second when he had looked at things on his computer, Caroline is the computer expert, they would only have to check with his service provider the searches he had done as well on the device.  His computer revealied he searched about Jo’s murder before she was reported missing, six days later he’d searched how fast does a body begin to decompose, days after he’d googled the area she was found, he checked local rubbish collection, extradidition arrangements between Holland and UK, hourly updates on the investigation,  don’t forget the snuff video the morning of the murder.  But do Forget this monster and don’t feel sorry for him, instead Feel sorry for poor Joanna and her parents boyfriend and friends, they are the victims not this monster who decided to take the life of a poor innocent young girl for his own gratification.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 05:38:41 PM by Real justice »

Offline Caroline

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3551 on: March 24, 2019, 12:39:21 PM »
Caroline has explained the coat,  but fibres of his black coat were found on Joanna.

But Lickley said traces of DNA matching Tabak's were found on Yeates's breast and on her jeans, underneath her knees, indicating he probably held her by the legs as he carried her body.

Traces of Yeates's blood were discovered in the boot of Tabak's car, the court heard. Fibres found on Yeates's body indicated she had come into contact with Tabak's black coat and his silver Renault Mégane, the prosecution claimed



 I would say He killed her, then went back to his flat to plan his cover up, he has a decision to make does he leave her body there or does he remove it.  Removing it distances himself from the scene.  The narrative being he’s left the door open, he tells you this, if he shuts it he can’t get back in, he then carriy’s her body into his flat, if he didn’t do this he would have said “I took the bicycle bag to put her body in inside the flat”  so he’s telling the truth then he would have said “ I then carried it to the car”  but no he took the body into his flat and then put the body inside the cover.  He then leaves the door open so he can go back in to switch the oven off and tv off. This would be Easy to switch off and not leave prints, with a remote control, or at plug socket switch, or at source, wearing gloves or with an instrument. 

Leaving the body in the flat , would be risky and would  have been a murder investigation straight away, crime scene evidence sought straight away, but Joanna was a missing person  lots of people go missing and it wasn’t an urgency straight away, so vital evidence could have been lost due to this..  This gives him time to distance himself from the crime and scene, he would be still worried what evidence he had left, because once he closed the door to the flat he can’t get back in.

Joanna made it back to the flat, her coat boots keys and phone and the Tesco receipt all being found in the flat, something she had on her in the evening, she still had the same clothing on what she went out in that night, minus her coat and boots ect, freezing cold and snow, not a chance and forget the rubbish about a receipt making device and being related, because that tells me, this is someone not wanting to believe what happened,I’m sorry but there is a big difference in not understanding what happened and not wanting to believe what happened.

 If you want to Forget about his confession, forget the DNA the fibres the blood in the car, the evidence on the computer would have been damaging for him, he knew this and so did his defence, once he admitted guilt they didn’t need to show he had done it, they had to prove  it was murder and not manslaughter.  The police would have know down to the second when he had looked at things on his computer, Caroline is the computer expert, they would only have to check with his service provider the searches he had done as well on the device.  His computer revealied he searched about Jo’s murder before she was reported missing, six days later he’d searched how fast does a body begin to decompose, days after he’d googled the area she was found, he checked local rubbish collection, extradidition arrangements between Holland and UK, hourly updates on the investigation,  don’t forget the snuff video the morning of the murder.  But do Forget this monster and don’t feel sorry for him, instead Feel sorry for poor Joanna and her parents boyfriend and friends, they are the victims not this monster who decided to take the life of a poor innocent young girl for his own gratification.

Well said Justice!

Offline Real justice

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3552 on: March 24, 2019, 05:55:41 PM »
Well said Justice!
Thanks Caroline, it’s all a big coincidence, he’s phsycic as well  and it never snowed.

The court heard that on December 19 – before police knew she was missing – he looked at Google maps of Longwood Lane, Failand, where Jo’s body was found on a snow-covered verge.

Tabak, 33, also looked up satellite images of the site where he dumped Jo’s body and a timelapse video of a body decomposing, Bristol Crown Court heard.



He also Googled ‘definition sexual conduct’ and then ‘definition of sexual assault’ a few weeks later on January 11.

A story about CCTV footage was viewed ‘almost hourly’ a day before his arrest on January 20, Mr Lickley said.


Internet use analyst Lyndsey Farmery explained Tabak’s online activity to the jury today, showing them dozens of internet pages said to have been viewed by the defendant.

Lyndsey Farmery said that on the day after Yeates went missing — December 17 — Tabak was doing research on subjects including the five-day weather forecast.

Next day he looked at online maps and images of Longwood Lane, the road three miles from her Bristol flat where her body was discovered.

In subsequent days Tabak looked at news articles on Shrien Dewani, the Bristol man accused of hiring hitmen to kill his wife in South Africa, and the case of Melanie Hall, who was murdered after leaving a nightclub in Bath in 1996.

Later, the jury was told, he researched subjects including: "How does forensic identification work?" and the location of CCTV cameras in Canynge Road, Clifton, where Tabak and Yeates lived.

He researched "body decomposition time" and an article about a man who strangled his wife and pleaded diminished responsibility.

When police revealed they were sifting tonnes of rubbish he looked up details of household waste collection in Bristol.

Tabak, who denies murder but admits manslaughter, also spent time finding out about prison life in the UK. In addition he searched online for phrases including the "definition of sexual assault", "definition sexual conduct" and "sexual offence explained".




« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 06:24:40 PM by Real justice »

Offline APRIL

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3553 on: March 24, 2019, 07:04:53 PM »
Thanks Caroline, it’s all a big coincidence, he’s phsycic as well  and it never snowed.

The court heard that on December 19 – before police knew she was missing – he looked at Google maps of Longwood Lane, Failand, where Jo’s body was found on a snow-covered verge.

Tabak, 33, also looked up satellite images of the site where he dumped Jo’s body and a timelapse video of a body decomposing, Bristol Crown Court heard.



He also Googled ‘definition sexual conduct’ and then ‘definition of sexual assault’ a few weeks later on January 11.

A story about CCTV footage was viewed ‘almost hourly’ a day before his arrest on January 20, Mr Lickley said.


Internet use analyst Lyndsey Farmery explained Tabak’s online activity to the jury today, showing them dozens of internet pages said to have been viewed by the defendant.

Lyndsey Farmery said that on the day after Yeates went missing — December 17 — Tabak was doing research on subjects including the five-day weather forecast.

Next day he looked at online maps and images of Longwood Lane, the road three miles from her Bristol flat where her body was discovered.

In subsequent days Tabak looked at news articles on Shrien Dewani, the Bristol man accused of hiring hitmen to kill his wife in South Africa, and the case of Melanie Hall, who was murdered after leaving a nightclub in Bath in 1996.

Later, the jury was told, he researched subjects including: "How does forensic identification work?" and the location of CCTV cameras in Canynge Road, Clifton, where Tabak and Yeates lived.

He researched "body decomposition time" and an article about a man who strangled his wife and pleaded diminished responsibility.

When police revealed they were sifting tonnes of rubbish he looked up details of household waste collection in Bristol.

Tabak, who denies murder but admits manslaughter, also spent time finding out about prison life in the UK. In addition he searched online for phrases including the "definition of sexual assault", "definition sexual conduct" and "sexual offence explained".


Well researched, RJ. I thinks it's asking rather too much of us to expect us to believe that all those links are the result of nothing more than coincidence.

Offline Real justice

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #3554 on: March 24, 2019, 07:34:34 PM »

Well researched, RJ. I thinks it's asking rather too much of us to expect us to believe that all those links are the result of nothing more than coincidence.
Thanks April, you can see why he chose this area there’s a quarry either side, he tried to lift her over the wall, if he had succeeded she may never have been found.

https://mapper.acme.com/?ll=51.43922,-2.66885&z=15&t=SL&marker0=51.43922,-2.66885,Location%20at%20which%20Joanna%20Yeates%27%20body%20was%20found

There was two ways to get to this area, either over the suspension bridge, or the Brunal way bridge. The suspension bridge had cctv but I don’t think they could make much out from it?