Author Topic: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence  (Read 63982 times)

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Offline Caroline

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2020, 10:28:19 PM »
But how much reliance can be placed on the so-called scientific evidence that emanated from the FSS lab?



They had the original exhibits, a lot more than something dreamed up 35 years later from individuals who are far from impartial.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 11:22:28 AM by Caroline »

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2020, 10:03:22 AM »
Common sense, I've answered some of your questions below. I'll answer the rest some other time.

So why haven't all convictions from that era been overturned?

I don't know exactly what the quality issues involved but there's no evidence Malcolm Fletcher was appropriately qualified at the time of trial.  MF's evidence was arguably the most important.  It contradicts with a US expert who has a worldwide reputation in the pathology of gunshot wounds and interestingly the British Gov instructed to advise on the Bloody Sunday investigation.

The lead test undertaken by Brian Elliot is not offered by any of the independent forensic service providers. I believe the only reliable test used to determine whether someone has discharged a firearm is a test for gunshot residue and this wasn't used in this case.

MF had 13 years experience and the appropriate qualifications plus access and presumably a professional interest in scientific literature to support his opinions, the defence had and still has every right to obtain other expert opinion if advances in science can shed further light. CoA takes a dim view of "expert shopping" though.

The lead test wasn't for firing a gun, it was to determine whether she had loaded the magazine but it's a fair point that a test for GSR doesn't seem to have been carried out to my knowledge. 


What do you mean supposedly found?  Are you accusing the forensic scientists of being part of a deliberate frame?

The silencer was examined on 13th Aug and returned to the police.  It wasn't until 12th Sep that it was reexamined and the blood flake found inside.  It seems unlikely for all the reasons I've given above.  I wouldn't want to speculate about who did what and when because I don't know.  I think there was some wrongdoing at the lab because post trial the appeals process swung into action which resulted in the defence asking the lab to place blood inside the silencer and fire the rifle 26 times to ascertain what affect this had on the blood test results.  The lab claimed the results remained unaltered.  This contradicts with tests carried out by other experts and begs the question why other blood stained exhibits were incapable of yielding the sort of results produced by the silencer yet again!

I shall bow to your superior knowledge here and just take your word for it but it seems to me some expert opinion and explanation on this is required

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2020, 10:16:03 AM »
I can see the point but is it possible a "non practising barrister" isn't practising because he isn't very good?

Rivlin and Lawson were both top QCs and understood that trials are not just about facts and evidence but some theatre too.

As unlikely as it sounds, Sheila finding the silencer, shooting everyone except herself and then putting it back in the cupboard was the only real option for Bamber save for some weak suggestion of accidental contamination.

Otherwise, he is confidently ignoring the expert scientific evidence and alleging serious charges of perverting justice against the Boutflours/police based on a conspiracy theory. He was already claiming a number of others had lied about him, some with motive and some without.

The issues you raised above were explored to the extent they could be; I am a little confused about DBs attempts to unscrew the moderator but AFAIK, that's all that was admitted to, an attempt. Likewise, if they did attempt to scrape blood with a razor blade,  this would be the exact opposite of a frame as they would be destroying evidence.

As for accidental contamination, this was also explored to the bounds of any credible defence.RB denied handling the mod and denied having any cuts. The idea that a bucket containing watered down menstrual blood could have been the source of a dried flake found trapped between the baffle plates is laughable - what would the expert witnesses answer have been? 

As the 2002 appeal judgement makes clear, JB was also keen to avoid any mention of his intention to sell the farms, including the land that NB had secretly purchased and so could not supply a motive for this dastardly and unlikely plot

Did the relatives know SCs blood group? Did they know RB was a group match?

Did they know there were no photos of the underside of the mantel?

The short answer ( brevity isn't my strong suit !) is simply that Arlidge would have ridiculed any serious attempt to raise a conspiracy and left the jury with the impression that Bamber was simply desperate.



I agree wholeheartedly, CS.

As you obviously know, all barristers are effectively self-employed and if they’re “non-practising”; losing thousands & thousands of pounds; and resorting to posting on a forum — one filled with strangers obsessed over a convicted mass murderer — just to pass the time, one can safely assume they’re never called upon to represent anyone. Which speaks volumes...

As for Jeremy Bamber, he had two excellent QC’s so if they weren’t able to convince the jury that JB wasn’t guilty, it doesn’t bode well almost four decades later trying to leave for appeal yet again, with no new evidence, and that’s after having also lost two previous Appeals, including an appeal at the Court of Human Rights, and having a further Leave to Appeal rejected.

JB and his campaign team have never come up with any solid evidence that he could be innocent. Ever. They rehash the tired old conspiracy theories, but as you say, it simply makes them look desperate. You’ve covered the argument pertaining to the silencer, and it is indeed ludicrous for JB and his team to suggest that maybe RB planted the blood inside. Not even a forensic scientist could have planted Sheila’s blood in that silencer. They’d have need some kind of apparatus to cause blood to spray in exactly the same way Sheila’s did when her back spatter flew deep inside the silencer and then dried into a flake at the bottom.  How could RB have razored off a dried flake of blood from somewhere, and then sprayed it into the silencer to produce back spatter and a new dried flake to stick on the eighth baffle plate?

They often suggest RB used Sheila’s watered down menstrual blood where she had some underwear soaking in a bucket. But menstrual blood is totally different to normal blood, and forensics would have spotted it immediately. For one thing it doesn’t clot; it also contains tissue and other fluid from the lining of the uterus; and has other particles that only menstrual blood has. It’s such nonsense that no barrister would dare suggest such a ridiculous suggestion.

Besides the forensic angle which is irrefutable,  there’s be no logical reason why Sheila would have put the silencer away. None. Even if the silencer had been found by her side, all the other damning evidence would have still pointed to one person being the murderer — Jeremy Bamber.
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2020, 10:32:34 AM »
I didn't say it was.  But according to NGB he said the defence anticipated an acquittal based on reasonable doubt so given the verdict was a 10/2 majority I guess it might have taken the wind out of his sail!



You may be in awe of him for some strange reason, but I can assure you that you’re very much in the minority.

No QC would throw in their career on account of losing the case of a psychopathic murderer who rightly got his just desserts. Someone has to defend these freaks of nature, and he may have had reason to have a stab at it: it’s not every day you get to defend a monster who will go down in history for one of the most evil crimes of the century.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 10:42:14 AM by mrswah »
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2020, 10:39:25 AM »


Holly always says the flake was “supposedly “ found, despite a full team of forensics and police watching as they silencer was taken apart, and they all saw the blood flake.

She likes to suggest they were all wrong, or they all set JB up.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 10:42:44 AM by mrswah »
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2020, 10:56:12 AM »

You put Jeremy Bamber on a pedestal!

You may be in awe of him for some strange reason, but I can assure you that you’re very much in the minority.

No QC would throw in their career on account of losing the case of a psychopathic murderer who rightly got his just desserts. Someone has to defend these freaks of nature, and he may have had reason to have a stab at it: it’s not every day you get to defend a monster who will go down in history for one of the most evil crimes of the century.

A third appeal will prove to be a slam dunk and hopefully led by William Clegg QC who has a huge amount of experience in the appeal courts:

https://www.2bedfordrow.co.uk/barrister/william-clegg-qc/

At the time of JB's last appeal Michael Turner was very inexperienced.

https://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/barristers/michael-turner-qc

You will note MT QC took silk in 2002 and I believe JB's case was his first.  What sort of profession would allow a QC to take on such a complex high profile case having just qualified?  Ridiculous.  WC QC took silk in 1991.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Caroline

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2020, 11:24:52 AM »
A third appeal will prove to be a slam dunk and hopefully led by William Clegg QC who has a huge amount of experience in the appeal courts:

https://www.2bedfordrow.co.uk/barrister/william-clegg-qc/

At the time of JB's last appeal Michael Turner was very inexperienced.

https://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/barristers/michael-turner-qc

You will note MT QC took silk in 2002 and I believe JB's case was his first.  What sort of profession would allow a QC to take on such a complex high profile case having just qualified?  Ridiculous.  WC QC took silk in 1991.

How come none of these tests you keep talking about have even been done yet and it's some two years (maybe more) since you first mentioned it?

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2020, 02:07:42 PM »
A third appeal will prove to be a slam dunk and hopefully led by William Clegg QC who has a huge amount of experience in the appeal courts:

https://www.2bedfordrow.co.uk/barrister/william-clegg-qc/

At the time of JB's last appeal Michael Turner was very inexperienced.

https://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/barristers/michael-turner-qc

You will note MT QC took silk in 2002 and I believe JB's case was his first.  What sort of profession would allow a QC to take on such a complex high profile case having just qualified?  Ridiculous.  WC QC took silk in 1991.

I agree that the 2002 appeal was a shambles from Bambers point of view but I would bet the blame for that lies with JB rather than Turner, not to mention the very weak and faulty grounds the CCRC saw fit to refer the case with. 

You don't get to be a QC without first being an accomplished barrister. Even I know why Bamber wouldn't want to bring the bible or David Boutflour's evidence of JBs hands being scratched into his trial and I have no legal training whatsoever.

From all I hear about JB,  I can imagine every lawyer has difficulty with him.

Offline APRIL

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2020, 02:34:11 PM »
I agree that the 2002 appeal was a shambles from Bambers point of view but I would bet the blame for that lies with JB rather than Turner, not to mention the very weak and faulty grounds the CCRC saw fit to refer the case with. 

You don't get to be a QC without first being an accomplished barrister. Even I know why Bamber wouldn't want to bring the bible or David Boutflour's evidence of JBs hands being scratched into his trial and I have no legal training whatsoever.

From all I hear about JB,  I can imagine every lawyer has difficulty with him.


That would be my own conclusion, CS. i think the would be a charm offensive -big time- for women, but my impression is that behind the arrogant mask, when it comes to dealing with lawyers/men with powerful careers? there may reside a very insecure boy. Lawyers, however, would only experience an arrogant, imperious, and difficult client.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:41:48 PM by APRIL »

Offline Caroline

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2020, 02:36:22 PM »
Common sense, I've answered some of your questions below. I'll answer the rest some other time.

So why haven't all convictions from that era been overturned?

I don't know exactly what the quality issues involved but there's no evidence Malcolm Fletcher was appropriately qualified at the time of trial.  MF's evidence was arguably the most important.  It contradicts with a US expert who has a worldwide reputation in the pathology of gunshot wounds and interestingly the British Gov instructed to advise on the Bloody Sunday investigation.

The lead test undertaken by Brian Elliot is not offered by any of the independent forensic service providers. I believe the only reliable test used to determine whether someone has discharged a firearm is a test for gunshot residue and this wasn't used in this case. 

What do you mean supposedly found?  Are you accusing the forensic scientists of being part of a deliberate frame?

The silencer was examined on 13th Aug and returned to the police.  It wasn't until 12th Sep that it was reexamined and the blood flake found inside.  It seems unlikely for all the reasons I've given above.  I wouldn't want to speculate about who did what and when because I don't know.  I think there was some wrongdoing at the lab because post trial the appeals process swung into action which resulted in the defence asking the lab to place blood inside the silencer and fire the rifle 26 times to ascertain what affect this had on the blood test results.  The lab claimed the results remained unaltered.  This contradicts with tests carried out by other experts and begs the question why other blood stained exhibits were incapable of yielding the sort of results produced by the silencer yet again!

SNIP

You need a source for you last paragraph.

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« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 03:44:47 PM by Holly Goodhead »

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2020, 06:59:05 PM »
A third appeal will prove to be a slam dunk and hopefully led by William Clegg QC who has a huge amount of experience in the appeal courts:

https://www.2bedfordrow.co.uk/barrister/william-clegg-qc/

At the time of JB's last appeal Michael Turner was very inexperienced.

https://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/barristers/michael-turner-qc

You will note MT QC took silk in 2002 and I believe JB's case was his first.  What sort of profession would allow a QC to take on such a complex high profile case having just qualified?  Ridiculous.  WC QC took silk in 1991.


I guarantee William Clegg QC wouldn’t go anywhere near JB’s attempt for a leave to appeal. He only takes on cases he believes he can win...he’d be embarrassed to represent Jeremy Bamber — it would be detrimental to his reputation and career.

The reason JB was only able to find one newly qualified QC was that no other QC would represent him. They know he’s guilty. The QC who took the case on possibly thought it would be good training, not to mention he’d get paid handsomely. He never expected to clear JB — it was more of a training exercise. However, for you to say it was “ridiculous” for his legal team to instruct a newly qualified QC to represent him, shows how grandiose you are, Holly. All QC’s have to start somewhere when they’re at the bottom of the ladder, and where better than to act for someone who’s of no significance; no loss to their reputation in terms of losing the appeal when Bamber’s lost every other appeal; and is akin to flogging a dead horse.

Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.

Offline Caroline

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2020, 08:38:12 PM »
The Criminal Cases Review Commission wasn’t around in the 70’s Holly

https://ccrc.gov.uk/about-us/our-history/

Offline Nicholas

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2020, 10:37:21 AM »
When asked in 1993

You believe that she committed those crimes using the silencer ?

Bamber replied,


(Pauses) “My own personal belief, I believe that that’s a complete red herring. I don’t have evidence one way or the other on that. Not hard evidence. I believe that she didn’t use the silencer.”
Who wants to take on this great massive lie?” Writer Martin Preib on the tsunami of innocence fraud sweeping our nation

Offline Common sense

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2020, 11:11:17 PM »
It doesn't matter whether you as a lay person agree whether MF was appropriately qualified or not and I think you would find getting that passed muster would be impossible given that the man has 13 years of practical experience and his knowledge far outweighs your own. You criticise others for questioning expert opinion yet you have no qualms about doing so yourself.

The gunshot residue wasn't in the case due to the fact that Bamber staged the scene leading officers to the wrong conclusion. Why test for gun shot residue when you have a body almost holding the smoking gun? I believe the recent BS about Stand Jones claiming there is a suicide note - is actually a reference to the crime scene itself. The scene read like a suicide note, not that a written one was found at the scene. The body strewn with the rife was tantamount to saying 'I have just killed myself'. Would a test for gunshot residue have exonerated Sheila in the absence of a test from Bamber? I very much doubt it!

You need a source for you last paragraph.

Actually, thinking about it, maybe they decided a test for GSR would be useless as she had been shot and was found with the rifle on her nightdress, her hand resting on it? It would be expected to be there.

I believe that as well as the tests for lead, her nightdress was inspected visually and chemically for residues of the wax coating from the shells and none were found but were present on the garment used for test firings.

Offline ISpyWithMyEye

Re: Re-evaluation of the blood and silencer evidence
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2020, 04:46:19 AM »
Actually, thinking about it, maybe they decided a test for GSR would be useless as she had been shot and was found with the rifle on her nightdress, her hand resting on it? It would be expected to be there.

I believe that as well as the tests for lead, her nightdress was inspected visually and chemically for residues of the wax coating from the shells and none were found but were present on the garment used for test firings.


They did test Sheila’s hands, body and nightdress for GSR, CS.

And tests proved there wasn’t any on her that should have been had she fired the gun.
Seeking Justice for June & Nevill Bamber, Sheila Caffell & her two six-year-old twin boys who were shot dead in their heads by Psychopath, JEREMY BAMBER who must NEVER be released.