Author Topic: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?  (Read 26308 times)

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Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #120 on: October 26, 2017, 05:39:23 PM »
Have you ever found any evidence of that, John?

Standard procedure in any formal criminal interview which might lead to a prosecution.  Recordings are made so as to protect the interest of the accused as well as those conducting the interview.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 01:32:25 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #121 on: October 31, 2017, 02:08:50 PM »
Standard procedure in any formal criminal interview which might lead to a prosecution.  Recordings are made so as to protect the interest of the accused as well as those conducting the interview.

Mandatory or ecommended procedure NOW.

I haven't found any recorded cctv evidence of either suspects' time in custody - either formal or informal.

Have you?

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #122 on: November 17, 2017, 10:05:59 PM »
Mandatory or ecommended procedure NOW.

I haven't found any recorded cctv evidence of either suspects' time in custody - either formal or informal.

Have you?

Recordings of interviews have been an integral part of police interviews for many years, they are seldom put into the public domain.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 10:08:05 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2017, 04:32:00 AM »
They were most likely recorded but as I keep saying, the police have at their disposal a hell of a lot more info than is ever released to the public.

You are looking to trust an investigating team that were found guilty of torture and lying by their own court...i would say that is reasonable to be suspect of anything they say

Offline misty

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2017, 04:48:26 PM »
Had there been any "before & after" video footage of Leonor after she met with her "accident on the stairs" during the interview, it would have been used in court by those fine upstanding PJ officers as proof of the nature of any injuries sustained to her face. IMO.

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #125 on: November 20, 2017, 06:00:14 PM »
Had there been any "before & after" video footage of Leonor after she met with her "accident on the stairs" during the interview, it would have been used in court by those fine upstanding PJ officers as proof of the nature of any injuries sustained to her face. IMO.

I'm interested in what actually happened during her initial interrogation. I find the facts, or rather the lack of them, quite intriguing.

Some people are convinced that she must be guilty because the outcome was that she apparently signed a statement at the end of it "confessing" to an accident and repeated the contents to a judge.

Was this interrogation filmed?
Was she accompanied by a lawyer at all times?
How long did the sessions last?
Was she given food / water / toilet access / time to sleep durin this time?
Were bluff techniques used?
Was she subjected to now largely descredited interrogation techniques to force a confession, or not?

Did anyone ever raise this in court?


Offline Eleanor

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #126 on: November 20, 2017, 07:02:05 PM »
I'm interested in what actually happened during her initial interrogation. I find the facts, or rather the lack of them, quite intriguing.

Some people are convinced that she must be guilty because the outcome was that she apparently signed a statement at the end of it "confessing" to an accident and repeated the contents to a judge.

Was this interrogation filmed?
Was she accompanied by a lawyer at all times?
How long did the sessions last?
Was she given food / water / toilet access / time to sleep durin this time?

Were bluff techniques used?
Was she subjected to now largely descredited interrogation techniques to force a confession, or not?

Did anyone ever raise this in court?

No.  no one ever did.  It was a travesty of justice.

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #127 on: November 21, 2017, 01:30:26 AM »
One or both may be guilty.

However, the reliance on "confessions" in dubious conditions and the lack of supporting evidence of the alleged scenario really make me wonder.

I'm perfectly aware that some people think I'm biased because some people were also involved in another case, but I really have tried to examine this case separately (not always easy). I'm also aware that some also assume that they must be guilty due a knee-jerk reaction.

If people just stand back and examine the facts of this case... I really don't understand how it ever got to court in a civilised society.

What influence did the manifestly pro-PJ tabloid media have?

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #128 on: November 21, 2017, 02:24:27 AM »
I'm interested in what actually happened during her initial interrogation. I find the facts, or rather the lack of them, quite intriguing.

Some people are convinced that she must be guilty because the outcome was that she apparently signed a statement at the end of it "confessing" to an accident and repeated the contents to a judge.

Was this interrogation filmed?
Was she accompanied by a lawyer at all times?
How long did the sessions last?
Was she given food / water / toilet access / time to sleep durin this time?
Were bluff techniques used?
Was she subjected to now largely descredited interrogation techniques to force a confession, or not?

Did anyone ever raise this in court?

I'm sure her former lawyer Joao Grade could answer all those questions given he was there.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #129 on: November 21, 2017, 02:27:40 AM »
One or both may be guilty.

However, the reliance on "confessions" in dubious conditions and the lack of supporting evidence of the alleged scenario really make me wonder.

I'm perfectly aware that some people think I'm biased because some people were also involved in another case, but I really have tried to examine this case separately (not always easy). I'm also aware that some also assume that they must be guilty due a knee-jerk reaction.

If people just stand back and examine the facts of this case... I really don't understand how it ever got to court in a civilised society.

What influence did the manifestly pro-PJ tabloid media have?

I can't recall many cases where a sane individual with a previous conviction for attempted murder confesses to killing a child but nevertheless is sent on his merry way.  But somehow you believe Joao Cipriano should have been treated exactly like that.  Now that is indeed puzzling?

One must not forget too that not only did Leonora Cipriano initially claim to have killed the child by bashing her head off the kitchen wall but later changed her story to implicate her brother Joao.

Both innocent?    *&^^&
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 02:32:46 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #130 on: November 21, 2017, 04:39:32 PM »
I'm sure her former lawyer Joao Grade could answer all those questions given he was there.

Lawyers kept changing, as you know.

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #131 on: November 21, 2017, 04:40:54 PM »
I can't recall many cases where a sane individual with a previous conviction for attempted murder confesses to killing a child but nevertheless is sent on his merry way.  But somehow you believe Joao Cipriano should have been treated exactly like that.  Now that is indeed puzzling?

One must not forget too that not only did Leonora Cipriano initially claim to have killed the child by bashing her head off the kitchen wall but later changed her story to implicate her brother Joao.

Both innocent?    *&^^&

I can quite easily imagine how she could have been brow-beaten into that. You can't, so we differ.

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #132 on: November 22, 2017, 12:21:08 AM »
Lawyers kept changing, as you know.

Not pre trial.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #133 on: November 22, 2017, 12:23:37 AM »
I can quite easily imagine how she could have been brow-beaten into that. You can't, so we differ.

I don't see it that way at all.  In my view she was at the very lowest complicit with her brother in the cover up following the child's demise.  Her story changed regularly, certainly not the conduct of an entirely innocent person.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline sadie

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #134 on: November 27, 2017, 03:04:19 PM »
The dissenting Judge was unhappy with the verdict BUT he never stated that he thought Leonora Cipriano innocent, that's the big difference. At the very least, Leonora Cipriano was guilty of complicity in a crime and attempting to pervert the course of justice.  By is own admission, her brother John admitted to murder and disposing of a body in an attempt to avoid justice.  Both are guilty of staging an abduction.
Joao (John) was a drug adict.  Withdraw all his drugs and then offer them * if  * a confession is given.  IMO he would be like putty in their hands.   And with Amaral and Cristovao both being criminals, of the perjury type etc., nothing would surprise me tbh

I am not saying that they did that, but they certainly allowed for Leonor to be beaten to the point of near blindness.

And drug with drawel, then drugs allowed, would be an easier route than beating Joao up



Leonor is an impressively strong and brave woman in my opinion, but eventually she was broken.   On the other hand,  Joao seems a weak individual.   AIMO

However being weak, or strong, does not mean either was involved in getting rid of Joana.


Joanas body has never been found and I think it likely that she is still alive.  I think thta she was the little girl in the orange top in the photo taken in Morocco.  The one that shows a man /woman carrying a little girl who does not look like Bushra Benissa , but looks the image of Madeleine.

I think she is probably still alive.   In fact, I think that both are probably still alive

AIMHO