Author Topic: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?  (Read 17335 times)

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Offline Benice

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2017, 09:39:56 AM »
Can you cite one official listening service which is offered not in an hotel or a complex but in a village which anyone can access and where there are a mixture of privately owned and holiday rental properties?

You seem determined to miss the point.

No matter where parents decide to use or mirror the listening type of childcare, or to use baby alarms when on holiday,  it ALWAYS involves making the decision to leave their sleeping children alone in their rooms.    It goes without saying that in every case those parents genuinely thought it was safe to do that - in the same way as the McCanns did - otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

According to you leaving sleeping children alone is totally unacceptable behaviour full stop -  and you are entitled to your opinion.   However it is only an opinion and one which quite obviously all of those parents mentioned above would not share with you - especially before Madeleine disappeared.

It seems to me that the reluctance by some to mention or even acknowledge the existence of those thousands of other parents is because it somewhat 'spoils' the concept that only the McCanns have ever committed this apparent  'crime of the century' of leaving their sleeping children alone and that it is absolute proof that they are evil uncaring selfish parents.       The fact that they are only one set of parents amongst thousands who have done the same -  puts rather a large spanner in those particular works IMO. 

Either those parents on holiday who made the decision to leave their children alone in their rooms did so because they believed it was safe, or there are thousands upon thousands of parents out there who  - because they left their children asleep and alone in their rooms - have proved they are also evil, uncaring, selfish parents.    You can't have it both ways.

AIMHO

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline G-Unit

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2017, 11:42:46 AM »
You seem determined to miss the point.

No matter where parents decide to use or mirror the listening type of childcare, or to use baby alarms when on holiday,  it ALWAYS involves making the decision to leave their sleeping children alone in their rooms.    It goes without saying that in every case those parents genuinely thought it was safe to do that - in the same way as the McCanns did - otherwise they wouldn't have done it.

According to you leaving sleeping children alone is totally unacceptable behaviour full stop -  and you are entitled to your opinion.   However it is only an opinion and one which quite obviously all of those parents mentioned above would not share with you - especially before Madeleine disappeared.

It seems to me that the reluctance by some to mention or even acknowledge the existence of those thousands of other parents is because it somewhat 'spoils' the concept that only the McCanns have ever committed this apparent  'crime of the century' of leaving their sleeping children alone and that it is absolute proof that they are evil uncaring selfish parents.       The fact that they are only one set of parents amongst thousands who have done the same -  puts rather a large spanner in those particular works IMO. 

Either those parents on holiday who made the decision to leave their children alone in their rooms did so because they believed it was safe, or there are thousands upon thousands of parents out there who  - because they left their children asleep and alone in their rooms - have proved they are also evil, uncaring, selfish parents.    You can't have it both ways.

AIMHO

Parents using a service offered by a hotel or holiday complex can justify their decision by pointing out that it is part of the service, so those offering it are recommending it as acceptable.

Parents creating their own ad hoc listening service in a resort where it's NOT PROVIDED BECAUSE THE RESORT ISN'T SUITABLE cannot justify their decision in that way.

Two different things, no matter how much you attempt to pretend they're the same. Even Kate McCann's mother struggled to understand what they were thinking;

 “I can read articles that say Kate and Gerry should never have left their children and I can accept that. You find yourself over and over again in your head thinking: ‘Why did they think it would be all right?’

“Why did they think – ALL of them – it was OK to do this?
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/madeleine-mccanns-grandparents-ask-leave-3490016
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Offline G-Unit

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2017, 03:49:16 PM »
Presumably by your logic the kids would be at danger from all sorts of threats except stranger abduction in this scenario!

It's not the only bad thing that can happen; didn't you know? That's why the NSPCC advice is to NEVER leave small children home alone. Apparently there's hordes of people in the UK who know better though.
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ferryman

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Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2017, 03:51:11 PM »
It's not the only bad thing that can happen; didn't you know? That's why the NSPCC advice is to NEVER leave small children home alone. Apparently there's hordes of people in the UK who know better though.

English law knows better.

Leaving kids is not, per se, an offence.

Offline G-Unit

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2017, 03:52:26 PM »
So, what was it about the OC resort that meant the dangers to children left alone were far greater than in those resorts in which a listening service is offered?  Presumably the dangers WITHIN the apartment were not far greater than those in other places with a listening service, so what was it in particular that made the OC unsuitable?

Mark Warner deemed it unsuitable, ask them.
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Alfie

  • Guest
Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2017, 03:54:34 PM »
It's not the only bad thing that can happen; didn't you know? That's why the NSPCC advice is to NEVER leave small children home alone. Apparently there's hordes of people in the UK who know better though.
Of course it's not the only bad thing that can happen, stranger abduction is highly UNlikely to happen, but it CAN happen, at least you are now conceding that, previously you seemed to think it neither plausible nor logical that a child could be taken from its bed while its parents were dining a short distance away.

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2017, 03:55:36 PM »
Mark Warner deemed it unsuitable, ask them.
Unsuitable in what respect, compared to their other sites which DO offer a listening service?

Offline Benice

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2017, 04:05:50 PM »
Parents using a service offered by a hotel or holiday complex can justify their decision by pointing out that it is part of the service, so those offering it are recommending it as acceptable.

Parents creating their own ad hoc listening service in a resort where it's NOT PROVIDED BECAUSE THE RESORT ISN'T SUITABLE cannot justify their decision in that way.

Two different things, no matter how much you attempt to pretend they're the same. Even Kate McCann's mother struggled to understand what they were thinking;

 “I can read articles that say Kate and Gerry should never have left their children and I can accept that. You find yourself over and over again in your head thinking: ‘Why did they think it would be all right?’

“Why did they think – ALL of them – it was OK to do this?
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/madeleine-mccanns-grandparents-ask-leave-3490016


IIRC the resort was not suitable from Mark Warners point of view only because a listening service could not be easily performed due to the layout of the site.     That logistical problem did not exist for the McCanns (or their friends) as they only had one check each to make and not multiple checks.

However, whether you like it or not  - nothing alters the fact that all parents who make the decision to use the 'listening' type of childcare do so for exactly the same reason - and that is because they genuinely believe it to be a safe method.   Otherwise they wouldn't do it.        The McCanns are no different - they also believed it to be safe and according to the Portuguese AG - they were entitled to hold that view.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it's so easy to be wise after the event.    That applies to everyone including the McCanns who will never forgive themselves for also holding that genuine belief that it was safe.

Attempts to single them out as being completely different to all other parents who made exactly the same decision for exactly the same reasons don't hold water IMO.   The only difference is those other parents were the lucky ones.

AIMHO

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline G-Unit

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2017, 04:18:01 PM »
Of course it's not the only bad thing that can happen, stranger abduction is highly UNlikely to happen, but it CAN happen, at least you are now conceding that, previously you seemed to think it neither plausible nor logical that a child could be taken from its bed while its parents were dining a short distance away.

Did I? Or did I say no-one has managed to come up with a plausible and logical theory of who, how and when one particular 'abduction' happened?
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Offline Benice

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2017, 04:22:40 PM »
It's not the only bad thing that can happen; didn't you know? That's why the NSPCC advice is to NEVER leave small children home alone. Apparently there's hordes of people in the UK who know better though.

Still ignoring the fact that this obviously does not apply when people are on holiday - as proved by the existence of the Listening Service which, due to it's popularity with parents, has been around at holiday venues for decades and which involves parents leaving their chidren 'home' alone unchecked for short periods of time.

Whether it is right or wrong is another matter, but it is silly to pretend that the above isn't the case.   AFAIK no-one has been arrested for offering the service or for using the service.

IMO it should be banned.

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline G-Unit

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2017, 04:40:48 PM »

IIRC the resort was not suitable from Mark Warners point of view only because a listening service could not be easily performed due to the layout of the site.     That logistical problem did not exist for the McCanns (or their friends) as they only had one check each to make and not multiple checks.

However, whether you like it or not  - nothing alters the fact that all parents who make the decision to use the 'listening' type of childcare do so for exactly the same reason - and that is because they genuinely believe it to be a safe method.   Otherwise they wouldn't do it.        The McCanns are no different - they also believed it to be safe and according to the Portuguese AG - they were entitled to hold that view.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it's so easy to be wise after the event.    That applies to everyone including the McCanns who will never forgive themselves for also holding that genuine belief that it was safe.

Attempts to single them out as being completely different to all other parents who made exactly the same decision for exactly the same reasons don't hold water IMO.   The only difference is those other parents were the lucky ones.

AIMHO

They said they 'thought it was safe', but they have never been asked why they thought it was safe leaving a mobile child access to a dangerous balcony. They have never been asked why they thought it was safe leaving a mobile child access to a kitchen. They have never been asked why they thought it was acceptable to risk letting children cry in a deserted apartment for up to 30 minutes.

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Alfie

  • Guest
Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2017, 07:16:23 PM »
They said they 'thought it was safe', but they have never been asked why they thought it was safe leaving a mobile child access to a dangerous balcony. They have never been asked why they thought it was safe leaving a mobile child access to a kitchen. They have never been asked why they thought it was acceptable to risk letting children cry in a deserted apartment for up to 30 minutes.
If there are listening services in other holiday resorts then there are almost certainly balconies and kitchens in those resorts as well, and yet these services are still on offer and being used by thousands of parents worldwide .  Crying for a few minutes does not tend to cause serious harm to a child, in fact some child care experts positively endorse leaving young children to cry themselves to sleep, harsh though it sounds.  Unless you mean that the sound of a crying child for several minutes might alert a passing predator to the fact that a child is inside, and a prime target for abduction?

Offline G-Unit

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2017, 07:53:37 PM »
If there are listening services in other holiday resorts then there are almost certainly balconies and kitchens in those resorts as well, and yet these services are still on offer and being used by thousands of parents worldwide .  Crying for a few minutes does not tend to cause serious harm to a child, in fact some child care experts positively endorse leaving young children to cry themselves to sleep, harsh though it sounds.  Unless you mean that the sound of a crying child for several minutes might alert a passing predator to the fact that a child is inside, and a prime target for abduction?

I've no idea what other resorts have, nor do I care. If they offer a service they share the responsibility if it goes wrong.

Is 30 minutes a few minutes? Strewth, what do you call a lot? Some child care experts say avoid CIO because it makes the child insecure; take your pick.
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Offline John

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2017, 08:19:13 PM »
If there are listening services in other holiday resorts then there are almost certainly balconies and kitchens in those resorts as well, and yet these services are still on offer and being used by thousands of parents worldwide .  Crying for a few minutes does not tend to cause serious harm to a child, in fact some child care experts positively endorse leaving young children to cry themselves to sleep, harsh though it sounds.  Unless you mean that the sound of a crying child for several minutes might alert a passing predator to the fact that a child is inside, and a prime target for abduction?

Anyone who goes out to dinner while on holiday leaving young child unattended are a disgrace and should be prosecuted for neglect.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Paynes used a baby monitor so was this accepted practice?
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2017, 08:29:26 PM »
Anyone who goes out to dinner while on holiday leaving young child unattended are a disgrace and should be prosecuted for neglect.

I think people  who harass an innocent couple on the net are a disgrace and should be prosecuted......unfortunately it isnt up to us individuals