General discussion about the latest news (not search related)

[Mr Gray]

Keela alerts to blood. Eddie alerts to blood and cadaver odour. If Keela doesn’t alert and Eddie does then it is likely it is to cadaver odour. Therefore as both dogs alerted to the key fob the material on the key fob was likely to be blood.

‘The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something’

as I said ....cadaver scent likely is an invention by the sceptics...there is simply no truth in it

[faithlilly]

as I said ....cadaver scent likely is an invention by the sceptics...there is simply no truth in it

It is the truth. That you refuse to acknowledge it is your problem.

[Mr Gray]

It is the truth. That you refuse to acknowledge it is your problem.

the truth according to whom.....not according to Grime..if you think that it is the truth you are severely misinformed..

so cite...according to whom....

[misty]

OK, thanks for the clarification.  I understand your point.

I hope you will not be annoyed if I disagree with your opinion.

The dog searches were conducted months after Madeleine disappeared, which is very definitely long enough for cadaver odour to develop from blood.

As to the bedroom alert, Grime explains it as possible pooling.

I am very definitely not impressed by Mr Grime's conduct of the searches nor his explanation thereof.

Based on the information I have to date, were the McCanns to be hauled up in court on such evidence, I would feel obliged to testify in their defence, at least on this aspect.  My view may change if fresh evidence comes to light about this consideration.

Grime was under the impression 5A had been closed off as a crime scene since the McCanns occupancy; it had not. Eddie did not alert to another source in the bedroom, so impossible for anyone to be precise about the origin of any odour.
Eddie was trained on decomposing piglets ergo he would have alerted to blood from them in the same way he alerted to human blood. Keela, however, would not have alerted to porcine blood having been trained solely on human blood.....

[Mr Gray]

It is the truth. That you refuse to acknowledge it is your problem.

This belief is the core of sceptic belief......and its incorrect....LOL

[Robittybob1]

UK Justice Forum » Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults » Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. » General discussion about the latest news (not search related)

Try and keep to the thread topic please.

[Mr Gray]

UK Justice Forum » Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults » Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. » General discussion about the latest news (not search related)

Try and keep to the thread topic please.

Are you trying to kill what little discussion there is.. Lol... Fine I'm off

[Lace]

Cadaver dogs do react to blood, that is why a blood dog such as Keela was needed.

Both Keela and Eddie alerted to the area behind the couch....blood contamination possible.
Only Eddie alerted in the bedroom....cadaver scent contamination likely.

You see how it works ?

Not really as cadaver dogs would also alert to something that had blood on it and had been taken away,  the scent would remain.  Keela wouldn't only alert to blood that was there.



Other families had stayed in 5a before the dogs were brought in,  it is possible that bloody clothes had been in that area eg wardrobe and then taken away,  Eddie would alert to the scent that remained.


While on the subject of what the dogs alerted to,  do you find it strange that if it was blood under the tile behind the sofa,  that only a tiny bit was found?   None found in the grout either  strange.   IMO

[pathfinder73]

If Keela doesn't alert and Eddie does in suspected murder cases then of course the police believe there was a body after ruling out other possibilities. Eddie alerted in the Prout case with no forensics and the police working on it believed there definitely was a body to be found. The millions spent on this case suggests the same.

[faithlilly]

Grime was under the impression 5A had been closed off as a crime scene since the McCanns occupancy; it had not. Eddie did not alert to another source in the bedroom, so impossible for anyone to be precise about the origin of any odour.
Eddie was trained on decomposing piglets ergo he would have alerted to blood from them in the same way he alerted to human blood. Keela, however, would not have alerted to porcine blood having been trained solely on human blood.....

Cite for your first claim?

[misty]

Cite for your first claim?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm  (page 2462 2nd paragraph)


What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.

[Venturi Swirl]

We have from 5.30 to at the earliest 10pm for cadever odour to develop. Even if it was a much slimmer timeframe there is no peer reviewed research that I know of that has definitively found the rate at which cadaver odour develops in a child.

The child would not have woke and wandered before going to bed, falling asleep andher parents leaving the apartment surely?!

[Venturi Swirl]

That's a matter of opinion, not fact.

Provide some expert opinion that contradicts mine then.

[Venturi Swirl]

Most expert opinion I’ve seen suggests it takes a minimum 90 minutes before a body starts to emit cadaver odour.  Let’s say that for a child it is only 60 minutes (apparently the process is quicker in children though no one has yet provided a cite for this afaik).  So given that the McCanns left the apartment at 8.30 at what time do dog supporters suppose Madeleine woke up and wandered?  Where did she wander to exactly and what accident befell her?   What time was her body found and where was it moved to?  If it was moved again, then at what time was that?

[Brietta]

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm  (page 2462 2nd paragraph)


What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.

From what he says here I think it is irrefutable that Martin Grime was under the impression that the crime scene had been locked down after Madeleine's disappearance.
I doubt he would have used that description of scent pooling had he known that business as usual had been allowed and that various families had occupied it since Madeleine went missing.  Ruling out Grime's appraisal of the hot climate in combination with the closed down apartment would allow the scent to remain undisturbed ... hence the dog alert.

It is an entirely different scenario from families living daily in the apartment.  Coming and going ~ opening doors ~ opening windows ~ cooking ~ eating takeaways ~ cleaning schedules while occupied and deep clean schedules between occupations.
Making it impossible to determine what exactly it was that excited the excitable dog into barking.

Snip
The blunder was revealed in the extensive 30,000 page police dossier into the investigation.

Details of all those who stayed in 5A after the McCanns were disclosed in an internal document written by Chief Inspector Vitor Matos to Goncalo Amaral, who was then leading the investigation.
- After the disappearance apartment 5 A was occupied by the following individuals: 12-06-2007 - 19-06-2007 by R and F. F****** (friends of the owners), from 28-06-2007 - 12-07-2007 by SR, W & CF, 12-07-2007 to 19-07-2007 by BSP and JFP, 19-07-2007 - 26-07-07 by MMS family.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm

__________________________________________________________________________________

On June 12, a couple from Liverpool who were friends of the owner, retired teacher Ruth McCann - who is no relation to Kate and Gerry McCann - stayed in 5A for a week.

A family of four from Falkirk in Scotland stayed from June 28 to July 12, followed by a couple from New Barnet in Hertfordshire.

On July 19, a family of three from Leicester stayed for a week.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/2523523/Madeleine-McCann-Apartment-was-not-made-crime-scene-for-two-months.html


It is highly probable that Martin Grime had no idea of these occupancies since it seems the McCanns were made arguidos prior to the judicial police locating evidence which justified it as the dates from the files would indicate.