Amaral and the dogs

[G-Unit]

RE: your answer to me above  - if both dogs alert to the same spot and it could mean either blood or cadaver and blood then what is the point of deploying two dogs in cases like this?  Why not simply use Eddie and dispense with Keela's services altogether?

Eddie says 'there's something here!' Keela says 'one of the things here is blood!'

[pathfinder73]

I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

He detected cadaver odour like he was trained to find.

[mercury]

RE: your answer to me above  - if both dogs alert to the same spot and it could mean either blood or cadaver and blood then what is the point of deploying two dogs in cases like this?  Why not simply use Eddie and dispense with Keela's services altogether?

Why wouldn't there be a point? Eddie is used to find indications of a death. It really is that simple. Keela is used to find minute forensic traces as back up. There is no need to labour this to kingdom come.

PS, well said GUnit, I didn't see your post, ha!

[mercury]

I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

No we do not, but we have a good idea, and that is as far as the cadaver dog alerts go as their capabilities can't be as yet matched by "science".

[G-Unit]

I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

Scientists cannot list the components of the 'scent of death', true.

[Alice Purjorick]

How can you equate that to cadaver odour emanating downwards through the door seal when there is no internal pressure? (genuine question as I was never great at physics)

You need to understand pressure and basic fluid dynamics.
You need to remove words like Amaral Grime Eddie Keela McCann Praia da Luz and Renault Scenic from the equation. They have b****r all to do with the principles which were figured out by guys, in the 17th and 18th centuries, like Boyle,Charles & the Bernoulli clan.
So this could apply to any old metal box in a seaside town near you.
Pressure moves from high to low. Put a hole in your car tyre wherever you like and the air will come out moving from high pressure in the tyre to low pressure outside. Stick in as many holes as you like anywhere you like in the tyre, they will leak air. Consider you have done it on the rig KwikFit use to fit tyres so it is horizontal and the car weight is not a distraction. Ultimately the air will leak out up down and sideways until there insufficient pressure to shove anymore out through the holes. If the holes are big enough the pressure will balance to equal inside and outside ie atmospheric pressure.
If you have parked your tin box by the beach huts at Brightlingsea in full sun, to start with the pressure in the box and the pressure outside are the same ie about 1013 mbar. If the temperature inside the box increases due to exposure to direct sun the volume of air inside will increase; if restrained in any way it will cause an increase in pressure until it is sufficient to flow out through a path to a low pressure area. Note that when the temperature outside is only about 25C the temperature inside can reach 60C plus in direct sun. See nice little graphic in the link below explaining absolute temperature and volume
If a draught blows along the tin box it will create areas of high and low pressure where the pressure outside the tin box on a micro level can be below that inside the tin box. This is basically a venturi effect.
Broadly speaking that is how it works; I am not saying in the case in point it did happen but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. It would scarcely be possible to determine as it would be necessary to recreate precisely all the conditions that obtained at the time so the debate could go on forever.
If you want to say its blx don't tell me get a medium and tell the guys above they got it wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles%27s_law

[Mr Gray]

He detected cadaver odour like he was trained to find.

cadaver odour has not been confirmed by grime

[pathfinder73]

cadaver odour has not been confirmed by grime

It has been by Scotland Yard. They used cadaver dogs last year.

[misty]

Why wouldn't there be a point? Eddie is used to find indications of a death. It really is that simple. Keela is used to find minute forensic traces as back up. There is no need to labour this to kingdom come.

PS, well said GUnit, I didn't see your post, ha!

The problem here is that the forensics Keela found, backing up Eddie's alerts, do not match the DNA of the cadaver the PJ expected to find evidence of.

[Mr Gray]

You need to understand pressure and basic fluid dynamics.
You need to remove words like Amaral Grime Eddie Keela McCann Praia da Luz and Renault Scenic from the equation. They have b****r all to do with the principles which were figured out by guys, in the 17th and 18th centuries, like Boyle,Charles & the Bernoulli clan.
So this could apply to any old metal box in a seaside town near you.
Pressure moves from high to low. Put a hole in your car tyre wherever you like and the air will come out moving from high pressure in the tyre to low pressure outside. Stick in as many holes as you like anywhere you like in the tyre, they will leak air. Consider you have done it on the rig KwikFit use to fit tyres so it is horizontal and the car weight is not a distraction. Ultimately the air will leak out up down and sideways until there insufficient pressure to shove anymore out through the holes. If the holes are big enough the pressure will balance to equal inside and outside ie atmospheric pressure.
If you have parked your tin box by the beach huts at Brightlingsea in full sun, to start with the pressure in the box and the pressure outside are the same ie about 1013 mbar. If the temperature inside the box increases due to exposure to direct sun the volume of air inside will increase; if restrained in any way it will cause an increase in pressure until it is sufficient to flow out through a path to a low pressure area. Note that when the temperature outside is only about 25C the temperature inside can reach 60C plus in direct sun. See nice little graphic in the link below explaining absolute temperature and volume
If a draught blows along the tin box it will create areas of high and low pressure where the pressure outside the tin box on a micro level can be below that inside the tin box. This is basically a venturi effect.
Broadly speaking that is how it works; I am not saying in the case in point it did happen but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. It would scarcely be possible to determine as it would be necessary to recreate precisely all the conditions that obtained at the time so the debate could go on forever.
If you want to say its blx don't tell me get a medium and tell the guys above they got it wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles%27s_law

Trying to sound clever but we are not talking fluids...we are talking gases...the dogs are detecting gases not fluids or solids as none were found. Any gases would have dissipated from the car...and the flower bed and possibly the apartment due to Brownian motion which would create constant dilution.

there is no concrete evidence that the dog's detected a cadaver...as Grime pointed out there are several scenarios that could have produced the contamination

[mercury]

cadaver odour has not been confirmed by grime

I already said to you a few posts back, there is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour, especially in cases where remnant cadaver scent are concerned, without a body, so why are you bringing this argument forward again?

[Mr Gray]

I already said to you a few posts back, there is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour, especially in cases where remnant cadVer scent are concerned, without a body, so why are you bringing this argument forward again?

If there are no confirmations of cadaver scent then how can anyone claim eddie has never been wrong

[Mr Gray]

I already said to you a few posts back, there is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour, especially in cases where remnant cadaver scent are concerned, without a body, so why are you bringing this argument forward again?

just to correct you yet again......

Intestinal anaerobic bacteria transform haemoglobin into sulfhemoglobin and other colored pigments.

So the presence of minute traces of sulfhaemoglobin would confirm the cadavrine contamination...100%

[mercury]

If there are no confirmations of cadaver scent then how can anyone claim eddie has never been wrong

Because he wasn't?
In training there is no doubt about any alert as the matter is there
In operational cases, Mr Grime says he has not been distracted by various factors such as road kill, bacon sandwhiches, etc
The point is, this dog was highly trained to the scent of dead carcasses, and that is what he will have smelt and alerted to, with some small provisos

[ferryman]

Because he wasn't?
In training there is no doubt about any alert as the matter is there
In operational cases, Mr Grime says he has not been distracted by various factors such as road kill, bacon sandwhiches, etc
The point is, this dog was highly trained to the scent of dead carcasses, and that is what he will have smelt

And the scent of Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the car.

Could detect a scent on clothing in the gym; but no scent on the same clothing in the villa.

Most strange.