Amaral and the dogs

[ferryman]

I think it is usual to have at least two different teams working a case, Anna.  Different handlers and different dogs.

Yes, a one-to-one handler to dog ratio at the same crime scene.

[Carew]

No it's not the point.

If there is blood in the vicinity, a cadaver dog (should alert).  Speculation about "cadaver scent" is precisely that, speculation and guesswork unless there is corroboration.

Corroboration can come, alone, from DNA uncovered by scientists in a laboratory.

To state as fact that if both dogs alert, then it must be only to blood is misleading.

That`s why I stuck to the point, because in my view such a categorical assertion could give an impression that cadaver contaminant was never present in this case, rather than unconfirmed/unknown.

There is a question mark over it, isn`t there and that`s the bottom line surely?

[Anna]

I think it is usual to have at least two different teams working a case, Anna.  Different handlers and different dogs.

I believe you are correct, Brietta. Although Mr Grime owned both dogs, IIRC one of them had a different handler.

[pathfinder73]

Yes, a one-to-one handler to dog ratio at the same crime scene.

Grime does one to one. One at a time. They do different jobs. That's why there's two dogs 

[Carana]

Hairs on bed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

Hmmm. Yes.  Six of which never made it to the lab. What did the  PJ forensic squad do with them?

[jassi]

Who says that they didn't reach the lab?

[ferryman]

Grime does one to one. One at a time. They do different jobs. That's why there's two dogs 

No, no.

One handler and one dog at the same crime scene.

That was the ratio in the second enquiry.  Two dogs and two handlers.

Not one handler handling two dogs.

[ferryman]

I believe you are correct, Brietta. Although Mr Grime owned both dogs, IIRC one of them had a different handler.

At SYP Ellis handled Keela.

http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/

PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable

[Anna]

To state as fact that if both dogs alert, then it must be only to blood is misleading.

That`s why I stuck to the point, because in my view such a categorical assertion could give an impression that cadaver contaminant was never present in this case, rather than unconfirmed/unknown.

There is a question mark over it, isn`t there and that`s the bottom line surely?

I think it all boils down to corroboration, Carew.
This topic is concerning Madeleine McCann and an alert by a blood dog and a cadaver dog(who could also scent blood).
It therefore needed corroboration(as do all dog alerts really).
Since her DNA was not found in that area it means that it was not her blood. If as you thought a cadaver was alerted too, by Eddie and the blood was left behind(which was alerted too by Keela), then it was not Madeleine.
 
However I must agree with you that it could have come from any another cadaver.

[Anna]

Who says that they didn't reach the lab?

Have you seen any Lab results? If so please share

[jassi]

Have you seen any Lab results? If so please share

No I haven't - I was asking who said they never went there.

[ferryman]

I think it all boils down to corroboration, Carew.
This topic is concerning Madeleine McCann and an alert by a blood dog and a cadaver dog(who could also scent blood).
It therefore needed corroboration(as do all dog alerts really).
Since her DNA was not found in that area it means that it was not her blood. If as you thought a cadaver was alerted too, by Eddie and the blood was left behind(which was alerted too by Keela), then it was not Madeleine.
 
However I must agree with you that it could have come from any another cadaver.

The Eddie and Keela combination was a half-way house to attainment of the optimal combination, realised with Keela and Morse partnership.

This was an innovation of the US forensic canine program that matched a cadaver dog, desensitised to blood, with a second dog trained to react to nothing else (so that the potential advantage of finding blood was not lost).

Moreover, by having a cadaver dog desensitised to blood, that (in theory) increased confidence that if a cadaver dog alerted, it had, indeed, detected cadaver scent.

That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the uncorroborated alerts of Morse were accepted as stand-alone  evidence of murder.

[Anna]

The Eddie and Keela combination was a half-way house to attainment of the optimal combination, realised with Keela and Morse partnership.

This was an innovation of the US forensic canine program that matched a cadaver dog, desensitised to blood, with a second dog trained to react to nothing else (so that the potential advantage of finding blood was not lost).

Moreover, by having a cadaver dog desensitised to blood, that (in theory) increased confidence that if a cadaver dog alerted, it had, indeed, detected cadaver scent.

That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the uncorroborated alerts of Morse were accepted as stand-alone  evidence of murder.

Eddie was not desensitised to the scent of blood, Ferryman. This where confusion arises.

[pathfinder73]

At SYP Ellis handled Keela.

http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/

PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable

John Ellis other dog was border collie Frankie.

When faced with a “clean” crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela’s other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun. “We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood,” Mr Ellis said. “It’s not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle.” - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/#sthash.fPLUNEvu.dpuf

Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.
http://news.sky.com/story/395084/keelas-nose-makes-her-top-dog

Constable John Ellis, said he realised the dog operated by his team-mate Martin Grime, a dog called "Eddie", a Springer Spaniel, had found something, because of his barking.

He added he continued searching with his dog "Frankie" a Border Collie, and that when he approached Constable Grime`s position, "there was a distinct smell of decay".

Constable Grime had told the court that as he searched the hedgerows and riverbank "Eddie" jumped into the stream and at one stage was being swept away by the current.

However, the dog managed to swim back up and jumped unto a pile of stones on the further bank and started barking.

"I immediately noted that he had found something and I made my way to the bank and saw what he had found," said Constable Grime.

[ferryman]

Which bit of the fact that only one handler will handle only one dog at the same crime scene and why?