Amaral and the dogs

[Mr Gray]

well they did didnt they??

do you understand what off topic means

[Mr Gray]

No it was me who said that, your mantra is the dog alerts mean nothing

without corroboration they mean nothing

[Mr Gray]

Can you back up all the claims you have made ?

off topic ad hominem attack

[Benice]

The whole question of dog-alerts is just too fraught with unanswered questions:

Why could Eddie detect no scent on clothing in the villa he (apparently!) could (exactly the same clothing!) in the gym?

Was cuddle-cat an error of commission?

Or an error of omission?

Why were the 'inspections' of all other holiday apartments whistle-stop; yet the inspection of apartment 5a long-drawn out and protracted?

Why did Mark Harrison, in his report, expressly disavow UK involvement in those inspections he had nothing to do with (the places Madeleine never lived in or went near).

And so on ....

You could add to that:

Why did Martin Grime wear head to toe protective clothing during the car search,  but only wore gloves during the search of the apartments? 

As you say there are many unanswered questions re the dogs - but although I regard MG as an excellent dog trainer,  unlike some - I have not ruled him out of the human race when it comes to possible human error - and neither does he apparently.

Quote
Asked about the ‘human remains’ found by Eddie that turned out to be coconut, Grime said bizarrely: ‘People aren’t right 100 per cent of the time. Otherwise they wouldn’t be human.’
Unquote

[ferryman]

You could add to that:

Why did Martin Grime wear head to toe protective clothing during the car search,  but only wore gloves during the search of the apartments? 

As you say there are many unanswered questions re the dogs - but although I regard MG as an excellent dog trainer,  unlike some - I have not ruled him out of the human race when it comes to possible human error - and neither does he apparently.

Quote
Asked about the ‘human remains’ found by Eddie that turned out to be coconut, Grime said bizarrely: ‘People aren’t right 100 per cent of the time. Otherwise they wouldn’t be human.’
Unquote

In response to the question I underline, guess which video Grime used to promote himself when he enrolled for the gig at Haut de la Garenne, Jersey ....

[stephen25000]

In response to the question I underline, guess which video Grime used to promote himself when he enrolled for the gig at Haut de la Garenne, Jersey ....

So ferryman, do you accept the dog might or might not have alerted to a body ?

[mercury]

without corroboration they mean nothing

No, without corroboration,which can't exist for remnant scent on it's own, they just  mean uncorroborated but not meaningless

[ferryman]

So ferryman, do you accept the dog might or might not have alerted to a body ?

There was no body.

[stephen25000]

There was no body.

You don't know that.

[Mr Gray]

No, without corroboration,which can't exist for remnant scent on it's own, they just  mean uncorroborated but not meaningless

so...then tell us what they mean...try reading Stephen's post..he seems to undestand

[Lace]

So you think the dog got fed up, and just wanted his tennis ball or biscuit quick, and alerted to "anythng" on the floor, maybe it was a sweaty flip flop? from a later holiday maker, but no chance the possibility of the Mccanns child, interesting sort of blanket denial

 

@ Benice no problems, I did say before, but got deleted

If you read up about these dogs you will find that yes they will do exactly that.

[mercury]

so...then tell us what they mean...try reading Stephen's post..he seems to undestand

They mean that a cadaver dog alerted to what he had been trained to, ie cadaver odour, so not "nothing"

If you read up about these dogs you will find that yes they will do exactly that.

Oh, right, I find that hard to believe. If true it makes a mockery of so much.So, no, I probably won't  believe it. Never even read anything to say a dog got tired/fed up so just barked.

ETA re your post below, Eddie wasn't deployed in 5A for hours anyway. If your claim is true, he would be barking at the end of that day's shift rather than at the start (which was 5A)

I'd appreciate a link when you get a spare minute anyway,thanks

[Lace]

So you think the dog got fed up, and just wanted his tennis ball or biscuit quick, and alerted to "anythng" on the floor, maybe it was a sweaty flip flop? from a later holiday maker, but no chance the possibility of the Mccanns child, interesting sort of blanket denial

 

@ Benice no problems, I did say before, but got deleted

Snipped from an article about cadaver dogs -    5) A severely fatigued dog can inadvertently be pressured to give a false alert because it wants to terminate the search in order to rest. Therefore, it is important to maintain the dog at a high level of physical fitness so that it may work for multiple hours with only brief rest periods.

[Lace]

mercury you may also be interested in this snipped from the same article -   

Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.


As Eddie was trained as a rescue dog at first,   he would have been trained to find live human beings,  he was then trained as a cadaver dog.    They say that a cadaver dog should not be cross trained.

[ferryman]

Mark Harrison's summary of all searches:

The timeline of these searches was as follows:
 
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
 
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
 
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
 
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
 
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
 
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
 
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.

Harrison acknowledged UK input only in those searches he recommended, the holiday apartments, areas in and around PdL and the Murats' place.

Both inspections at the villa and at the gym he summarises as PJ exercises.

And while Harrison did recommend  an inspection of vehicles, only 2 (of 3!) vehicles he recommended be inspected made the final line-up of 10.

Harrison gives no clue who took part in that exercise.

Why not?

ETA: Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct inspections in vehicles and buildings ....