Amaral and the dogs

[Carana]

Thanks Carana,
I agree. that to find a body or remains, they are invaluable to search teams. Without the evidence of remains, however, there can be many other reasons for an alert. None of us know what scent it is, that the dog alerts too. Even the specialist don't know what specific smell or combination it is, for sure.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

I've posted a link here several times about such dogs becoming confused by methane when searching for potential bodies in peat bogs... That's just one example.

[Carana]

To take it out of gory context, the dog is tasked to look for evidence of a vegetable soup with loads of ingredients.

Tomato soup doesn't smell the same as mushroom soup, or minestrone, with or without pulses, carrots, garlic, onions, courgettes, potatoes, herbs and spices.

He's just looking for vegetable soup... to get his toy.

It's then up to the humans to work out whether the residual scent of a carrot purée with tarragon was actually what they were looking for.

[Jean-Pierre]

To take it out of gory context, the dog is tasked to look for evidence of a vegetable soup with loads of ingredients.

Tomato soup doesn't smell the same as mushroom soup, or minestrone, with or without pulses, carrots, garlic, onions, courgettes, potatoes, herbs and spices.

He's just looking for vegetable soup... to get his toy.

It's then up to the humans to work out whether the residual scent of a carrot purée with tarragon was actually what they were looking for.

Thanks for the reminder I have not had lunch yet.   

[Carana]

Thanks for the reminder I have not had lunch yet. 

You're welcome. Bon app. ;)

[Mr Gray]

It's not speculating, Eddie gave an alert [potentially associated with] cadaver scent. That's his job and why he goes in first. Keela is only used after Eddie alerts. No blood indicates cadaver scent.



Edited

eddie's job is to find evidence...if all he ever did was alert and nothing was found he would be of no use at all

[Mr Gray]

What was Eddie used for? Read Harrison's report - dogs are used to find evidence of death. Eddie detects death.

"This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed." (Mark Harrison)

Eddie is used to find EVIDENCE of death...the alerts are not evidence....Eddie found no evidence

[stephen25000]

Eddie is used to find EVIDENCE of death...the alerts are not evidence....Eddie found no evidence

 &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

Yes there is.


Circumstantial evidence.

Inconclusive forensic results.

So the dogs either did alert or didn't to a body.

and dogs don't alert over nothing.

[pathfinder73]

I've posted a link here several times about such dogs becoming confused by methane when searching for potential bodies in peat bogs... That's just one example.

Eddie alerted to clean scented clothes and it wasn't persil.

CORNER: They took most of their clothing, they were taking even the wet clothes out of the washing machine.

[ferryman]

It was also concluded that the dog was "unreliable" round about the same place, ferryman;  I didn't post that because I couldn't be bothered ploughing through the document again for a cite.
But if you do come across it when looking for the coconut details can you post it up too.

What I did find was criticism, not of the dog, but of the archaeologist:

We informed X of
our concerns shortly afterwards, by phone and e-mail. We stand by our
original assessment. We suggest that the curvature of the material
may have had something to do with the misidentification. We
think it appears to be more like part of a large seed casing, or part of
something like a small piece of coconut. Certainly, the density of the
material is most unlike bone, it is too light. Our conclusion is that this
sample is: a) not bone and b) not human. We are very surprised that
the forensic archaeologist could be so confident and differ in X
identification. We suggested at the time that a further opinion would be
required, but this not considered by X . A further
analysis of the bone structure under a suitable microscope would
confirm the situation rapidly.
5.6.22 If this sample is bone and close to modern in age, then it would be
unusual in our experience for it to be so poorly preserved and lacking
in collagen. One would expect normally that for a bone coming from
the last few decades that at least some collagen would survive. In the
absence of collagen, one would conclude that the bone is probably
older than this, possibly by several hundred or even several thousands
of years. In this light, it is not liable to be of forensic interest. Our
assessment is, however, that it is almost certainly not bone and it is for
this reason that we have significant doubts over its forensic
importance. This probably explains the problems we encountered with
the sample and the fact that it is not able to be dated using collagen
extraction techniques.

I do recall those who scoffed at the (perfectly correct) assertion that was not bone asserted confidently that it must be because (they insisted) it contained collagen.

In fact, it was absence of collagen that, in part, led to scepticism that this was bone ....

[mercury]

What are the probabilities that the only apartment (from where a missing child went missing) in amongst seven, contained  any one or all of the myriad of "living scents" (bypassing the sausages and bacon for now) to which the dogs alerted?

Pretty unlucky don't you think?

Bump for an answer...or opinion. Anyone good at maths?

[ferryman]

Bump for an answer...or opinion. Anyone good at maths?

"Inspections" of the other apartments were whistle-stop tours.

Apartment 5a was long-drawn out and protracted until he got the result (dare I say it!) that was desired.

Much the same with the vehicles.

So pretty high.

[mercury]

Well, let's see.

According to Amaral, Eddie was involved in operational deployment and over 200 cases.  An FOI answer by SYP confirms the true number to be operational deployment and 37 cases.

We can't really judge Grime's claim to be in post with SYP when he wrote his profile, because it is undated.

But certainly he was freelance when he went to PdL.

IIRC his personal profile mentioned over 200 case searches. The operative word beng searches, not cases.
You are still calling him a liar as he has, in one of his reports stated that whilst a serving police officer working for South Yorkshire police, he undertook the search in PDL. That does not mean freelance.

Ah!

That is also the report that confirms, much more convincingly than tabloid newspapers, that Eddie alerted to a coconut .[/list]

Eddie was not trained for and did not alert to fruit or vegetables..and if you like, per se
Have you watched Lenny Harper's video interview on the subject?

[Alice Purjorick]

AFAIK, they are still trying to work out which scents the dogs react to.

Part of the problem is that there are hundreds of them, and will rise and fall in concentration over time, giving off different "bouquets" and the bouquet will also depend on factors such as time / decomp rate and whatever remains were / may be present.

Individually, or in small combinations, some scents can be present in nature or everyday life.

And then there is the issue as to how long the initial compounds remain detectable and in which conditions.

I have no problem whatsoever with bringing in VRD dogs as an asset to help find potential remains. In the Madeleine case none were found, and in the Jersey case, nothing found related to the scope of the murder investigation.

It is worth reading some of the stuff about Matthew Zarella's trials using dogs to find MIAs in Vietnam.

[mercury]

"Inspections" of the other apartments were whistle-stop tours.

Apartment 5a was long-drawn out and protracted until he got the result (dare I say it!) that was desired.

Much the same with the vehicles.

So pretty high.

In your haste to defend your argument that Mr Grime is a fraud the question appears to have actually gone right over your head.

[Mr Gray]

It is worth reading some of the stuff about Matthew Zarella's trials using dogs to find MIAs in Vietnam.

all this proves nothing applicable to the alerts...we all know dog's are excellent at finding evidence...that can be evaluated. what we don't know is how reliable the alerts are. It is claimed that eddie has never given a false alert...that is absolute BS and I don't believe Grime ever said that