Amaral and the dogs

[Mr Gray]

So no material was collected from the crime scene in this case ?

You need to get a grip.

and learn some basic science.

'Thinking out of the box' and 'lateral thinking' won't help in your case, as your repeated mistakes in science and maths have amply demonstrated.

I believe despite several alerts only two samples were collected and neither confirmed the cadaver odour alert..

your continued personal attacks only make you look an idiot...a chemistry teacher is hardly the height of scientific achievement...my education and experience go far beyond that. When I was at school the less academic boys became teachers...the more academic aimed higher.
perhaps you could now stop this stupid childish behaviour and we could have a proper debate

[Brietta]

No........I think you are misunderstanding the point.

There`s no need for you to "suggest" what you think I`m "suggesting" about loved ones under collapsed buildings.

The point was that the EVRD doesn`t seem to alert non-stop as he would were the alerts triggered by residual scents from the many  aforementioned substances which would probably be present at most sites under investigation.

Hmmm ... I wouldn't dream of offending you by "suggesting" anything at all pertaining to your posts ... which really rather detracts from broadening the discussion which is a pity.

Right lets get back on track with Mr Amaral and Eddie.

I think we can both agree that Eddie barked ... is that correct?

I have read and understood what Mr Grime had to say about that ... have you?

I have read up on VOCs ... have you?

Will have to leave it there for the moment ... perhaps in the interests of accuracy and to dismiss the chance of "suggestion" getting in the way ... you might like to continue stulted discussion based on question and answer such as the three above and I'll get back to you later.

Why are sceptics incapable of discussion without taking personal slight?  That was rhetorical.   

[lordpookles]

delete

[Mr Gray]

To reinforce my point...

no one knows what the alerts signify....even Grime cannot be sure...and he's the expert

[stephen25000]

To reinforce my point...

no one knows what the alerts signify....even Grime cannot be sure...and he's the expert

He is not a forensic scientist.

[Mr Gray]

He is not a forensic scientist.

so have any forensic scientists confirmed the alerts...

[Mr Gray]

The only confirmed alert is to Gerry's blood on the key bob...fat lot of good that alert was worth

[Mr Gray]

To reinforce my point...

no one knows what the alerts signify....even Grime cannot be sure...and he's the expert..furthermore non of the so called cadaver odour alerts were confirmed by forensic scientists

[Eleanor]

Well make sure that includes davel's.

After all. we are all supposed to be on an even playing field.

Are you suggesting that I am biased in my Moderating?  I wouldn't if I were you.  We are all subject to scrutiny.

As it is I am perfectly capable of looking at all of you with a jaundiced eye.

[Eleanor]

Quite true. Though, we've all seen the pics of the removed tiles and I thought it was established that this material came from a member of the McCann family, but there was not enough material to establish which member. I don't profess to know much about DNA analysis, so could well be mistaken.

How do you think it is possible for blood to seep under a cemented tile?  Into the grout possibly, but not underneath.  And No, it was not established as coming from a member of The McCann Family.  Quite the opposite.  No DNA was found from The Family McCann.

This is not a criticism of your post.  Do keep on asking.  But we are all battling past myths.  This is what the likes of me are doing here.

[stephen25000]

Hmmm ... I wouldn't dream of offending you by "suggesting" anything at all pertaining to your posts ... which really rather detracts from broadening the discussion which is a pity.

Right lets get back on track with Mr Amaral and Eddie.

I think we can both agree that Eddie barked ... is that correct?

I have read and understood what Mr Grime had to say about that ... have you?

I have read up on VOCs ... have you?

Will have to leave it there for the moment ... perhaps in the interests of accuracy and to dismiss the chance of "suggestion" getting in the way ... you might like to continue stulted discussion based on question and answer such as the three above and I'll get back to you later.

Why are sceptics incapable of discussion without taking personal slight?  That was rhetorical.

Are you experienced in the use of  forensic dogs ?

[ferryman]

At the risk of being boring about the Wiltshire Police Inquiry:
It appears to this Inquiry that the only additional information obtained by DCO HARPER after that point, when he was so adamant that the search should not take place, was the opinion of a builder who conducted work on the building in 2003 and held a contrary view to a pathologist who, in 2003 when bones
were found at Haut de la Garenne, classified them as animal rather than human. It cannot be ascertained, in the absence of documentary records to assist us, why the view of this builder should have had such a profound effect on DCO HARPER, causing him to change his initial viewpoint.

The report also refers to historic accounts from witnesses, Ground Penetrating Radar and dog indications.

If however you choose to believe most of it is "window dressing" and it was all down to Eddie then OK. But that is not what the report says.

3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by    X of the NPIA
questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is
accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that
any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated.
In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference
for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent
use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of
DCO HARPER.
3.10.13 CO POWER himself states ‘the search dog seemed to play a
significant role in determining whether a specific location needed to
be examined further. I am not an expert on dogs or what they do’.
3.10.14 Again, there is a distinct lack of documentary evidence to show any
intrusive supervision of the SIO with regard to the continued search.
This Inquiry concludes that the actions of DCO HARPER and
Martin GRIME went unsupervised for some considerable time. To
Page 116 of 383


Supervision Highly Confidential – Personal Information
CO POWER’s credit, there is an e-mail exchange between him and
DCO HARPER dated 10 May 2008 in which CO POWER raises the
question of the continued use of Martin GRIME and his EVRD. He
says ‘Lenny, it has struck me for some time that he [Mr GRIME] is an
expensive resource who has more than his fair shared of down time’.
DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him
though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search
coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks.
Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the
matter further.
3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate.
Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully
employed. In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject
Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement
Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise
Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay
purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.
3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER
accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog
handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again,
Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’. This
Inquiry has been unable to establish whether CO POWER made any
further attempts to supervise the SIO in this key part of the
investigation.
3.10.17 OFFICER X concludes ‘decisions should be made based on
professional policing judgement and evidence. When you look at the
facts, the excavation and searching of Haut De La Garenne… was
not justified’.


Operation Rectangle


More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.

(Goncalo Amaral, Truth of the Lie, chapter 16)

[pegasus]

Sands shift and it is easy to lose track of where bodies are buried ... witness Northern Ireland where victims of the troubles cannot be found despite the deposition site being known ... but there is nothing remarkable in a cadaver dog finding a recent burial which must have been stinking to high heaven as it was wrapped only in a duvet.

Digging in sand dunes is particularly difficult as loose sand quickly backfills the area being dug out therefore pin pointing the exact spot would be important and a cadaver dog the proper tool to do that and having been taken to the immediate area I reckon it would have taken Eddie minutes to do that saving hours of digging time.

The area where concealment was on Sanday
2:19 to 2:40 in video http://news.stv.tv/north/160890-spurned-lover-guilty-of-island-murder/
 

[Anna]

How do you think it is possible for blood to seep under a cemented tile?  Into the grout possibly, but not underneath.  And No, it was not established as coming from a member of The McCann Family.  Quite the opposite.  No DNA was found from The Family McCann.

This is not a criticism of your post.  Do keep on asking.  But we are all battling past myths.  This is what the likes of me are doing here.

Low level LCN DNA results were obtained from cellular material on the swabs from the tiles (286/2007 CR/L 4 & 12). In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that anyone in the McCann Family contributed DNA to these results.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

[lordpookles]

Low level LCN DNA results were obtained from cellular material on the swabs from the tiles (286/2007 CR/L 4 & 12). In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that anyone in the McCann Family contributed DNA to these results.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Yep. I just went and had a read of the files and deleted my post as it didn't make sense.