Amaral and the dogs

[Mr Gray]

I hoped the many self appointed experts here would help with the answers to my questions, thanks in advance.

the self appointed experts all seem to think the dog's alert are important so I don't think you will get much sense out of them

[Montclair]

the self appointed experts all seem to think the dog's alert are important so I don't think you will get much sense out of them

We won't get much sense from those self appointed experts who seem to think that the dogs' alerts are not important.

[Mr Gray]

We won't get much sense from those self appointed experts who seem to think that the dogs' alerts are not important.

so would you like to comment on the criticism of the alerts outlined in the report by the PJ........seems the PJ have their doubts about the value of the alerts

[ferryman]

We won't get much sense from those self appointed experts who seem to think that the dogs' alerts are not important.

One being Mark Harrison.

Another with doubts being PJ Inspector Dias.

[Mr Gray]

We won't get much sense from those self appointed experts who seem to think that the dogs' alerts are not important.

could you name an actual expert who has anything positive to say about the alerts....

[stephen25000]

could you name an actual expert who has anything positive to say about the alerts....

Which experts have said the dogs could not have alerted to a dead body ?

[Mr Gray]

Which experts have said the dogs could not have alerted to a dead body ?

Grime and Harrison have both said the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliability...we can only look at what the experts have said ...not what they have not said. We are all aware that there may have been a body in 5a.....and the dogs may have alerted to it...or they may not have...not much use...

Its like an explosive scent dog inspecting a plane and the handler reporting...there might be a bomb on there but then again there might not....wouldn't be a fat lot of use would it

[stephen25000]

Grime and Harrison have both said the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliability...we can only look at what the experts have said ...not what they have not said. We are all aware that there may have been a body in 5a.....and the dogs may have alerted to it...or they may not have...not much use...

Its like an explosive scent dog inspecting a plane and the handler reporting...there might be a bomb on there but then again there might not....wouldn't be a fat lot of use would it

So when did they say the alerts could not be to a body ?

Remember of course, this is what the dogs are trained for.

and Gerry Mccann, got it so, so wrong.

[Mr Gray]

So when did they say the alerts could not be to a body ?

Remember of course, this is what the dogs are trained for.

and Gerry Mccann, got it so, so wrong.

you need to read the post again....what do you think of the PJ criticism of the alerts

[Jean-Pierre]

So when did they say the alerts could not be to a body ?

Remember of course, this is what the dogs are trained for.

and Gerry Mccann, got it so, so wrong.

In this context the dogs are used as a tool to narrow down a search area and to point up places where forensic EVIDENCE may be found - no more and no less.

Some people do seem to be reading more into this than it actually warrants.   

[Carana]

None of us know for certain what Eddie was trained to alert too, Sadie. Only the trainer would know that. However we do know that he could alert to blood from a living person (which had dried) and IIRC, he alerted to semen on a tissue in another case.

X contamination could be another cause for alerts. False alert is also a possibility.

Living scent as in a human scent, would be everywhere in the apartment.

SAR dogs who do this kind of search (live victims) usually do so in searching outside areas or areas of disasters, they will also find a cadaver if one is present.

Please feel free to correct me on any of the above, which is only my opinion.

Grime's wording isn't always clear.

According to Grime's rogatory statement, he wasn't trained to find "live" odours and I don't recall ever seeing anything to suggest that Eddie was ever trained as a search and rescue dog (let alone as a tracking / trailing / SAM dog). 

Even what he means by "live odour" isn't entirely clear. Does he mean "live odour" as in a SAM dog? This seems unlikely (IMO) if he wasn't trained to track an individual person.

However, from his profile statement, does state that he would "search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood.

That has been interpreted by some to mean body fluids from a corpse, and it isn't until his rogatory statement that he clarifies that he would react to dried blood from a living person.

It's not clear what other "body fluids" he may react to that were deposited by a living person. There's some ambiguity over whether he was reacting to semen / vaginal fluids on the Jersey clean-up tissues, blood, or both.

I believe that someone else (Brietta?) also posted this from an interview with Grime in the Sun in 2008:

‘Eddie smells for the scent of a decomposing human body. He can detect any part of a human body that is decomposing ‘ hair, bones, flesh, anything.

‘The smell of a decomposing body is very difficult to get rid of. It can easily be transferred to clothing and on to a person.’

https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2013/08/10/misinformation-those-dogs/

The key seems to be whether the substances are in a state of decomposition or not, thus giving off the various characteristic smells, and are deemed potentialy relevant to a particular investigation.

I haven't come across anything that states that he was trained to ignore even urine / fecal matter. Personally, I would have thought that NOT training him to ignore such subtances would be more of a hindrance than an asset, but then it might be useful in certain (limited) scenarios.

From what I've read, hair and nail clippings don't actually decompose for some time in normal aerobic conditions (whether that is accurate or not, I don't know).

In humid anaerobic conditions, skin cells decompose to give off a characteristic pong (I'll post a link if and when I find one again).

[Mr Gray]

So when did they say the alerts could not be to a body ?

Remember of course, this is what the dogs are trained for.

and Gerry Mccann, got it so, so wrong.

The dogs are trained to find evidence

[stephen25000]

you need to read the post again....what do you think of the PJ criticism of the alerts

Now again.

Where does it say, the dogs could not have alerted to a body ?

[pegasus]

Eddie alerts to living scents

What i cant understand is why all this palava over him aparantly alerting at a shelf in a cupboard?  What if the dirty washing from a living Madeleine had been stored there?   There would be a scent then, would there not?

And Eddie who was trained to alert to living scents would have alerted.

Yes statistically the pile of laundry we see on the shelf that night contains items of all 5 people.
I can see the plane t-shirt - and it is a perfectly normal place to see it.

[stephen25000]

In this context the dogs are used as a tool to narrow down a search area and to point up places where forensic EVIDENCE may be found - no more and no less.

Some people do seem to be reading more into this than it actually warrants.

Of course they are a tool.

However, they are trained for specific purposes, and unlike humans, they have no axe to grind.