Amaral and the dogs

[misty]

Suggestion to the Forum owner - contact this young lady to take part in this discussion, at least she should know what she's talking about, and she can be contacted via her twitter account:

https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php

Is it wise to introduce VRDs mistakenly signalling mushrooms to add to the confusion?

[Carana]

Suggestion to the Forum owner - contact this young lady to take part in this discussion, at least she should know what she's talking about, and she can be contacted via her twitter account:

https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php

That's interesting Alfie.

Forensics research to make cadaver dogs more efficient

Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:24:00 BST

“They are mostly used for human remains detection, not just in murder cases but for suicides too.  For example, if somebody has been hit by a train, the dogs are used to locate body parts.  They have also been used after incidents such as the 7/7 bombings.

“They can also be used for blood detection, if there has been an assault for example, and in Lancashire they train their dogs to identify semen as well, so they can be used in sexual assault cases,” said Lorna.


As at Aug 2014, there still doesn't appear to be any global criteria concerning what such dogs are trained to alert to or to ignore. And this is seven years later.

[Anna]

Here you are Anna, sorry!

I think the post says the dog will alert to the scent of a cadaver. If only parts of the scent are present, therefore, that wouldn't be the scent of a cadaver, would it? No alert.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Thank you G, There is no need for you, to apologise. You may be correct. We can not know for certain, what it is within the cadaver scent that causes a dog to alert.

There are many contributing elements that result in the scent of a cadaver. Nobody knows which of these, the dogs alert too.
Even the scientists don't know, because there is no test in which to research it.

All we know is that it is a complex combination that makes up the scents. Cadaverine and putriscine.

[Mr Gray]

I would like to ask her if it is normal practice for the dogs to walk past the source of the scent ...completely ignoring it several times...before being called back several times in order to get an alert.

[Alfred R Jones]

Is it wise to introduce VRDs mistakenly signalling mushrooms to add to the confusion?

Hey, she's the one with the PHD, who are we to argue??  Let's add fungi to the list!!

[Mr Gray]

So the dogs who were supposed to have a 100% record
who were supposed to have never made a false alert in 200 cases
who according to amaral had been responsible for 200 convictions....have produced alerts that are worthless

[Carana]

Is it wise to introduce VRDs mistakenly signalling mushrooms to add to the confusion?

This bit?

Kip correctly identified the odours derived from decomposition and was not distracted by the “negative control” smells.  It was a successful demonstration.  But in the field, VR dogs can sometimes be distracted by “false positives”, such as dead animals, or even mushrooms, explained Lorna.  If she can arrive at a greater understanding of the chemistry of odours from human cadavers, then VR dogs can be extra efficient.

“If you train a dog with a chemical that is specific to human decomposition, you can enhance its ability.  It is not about changing the way the dogs do it, but improving it,” she added.

Dogs have also been distracted by methane from peat bogs.

Personally, I don't agree with the "dogs are useless" camp any more than I do with the "dogs are always accurate in detecting human corpses" camp.

They're a tool. Sometimes they lead to evidence, sometimes they lead to a red herring, and sometimes there's just an unresolved question mark pending further eliminatory investigation - which may or may not ever take place.

If methane, mushrooms or any other odour can lead to an irrelevant alert, then I find that worth researching, particularly when some people can end up on death row for the flimsiest of reasons and by the time the appeals process is over, the dogs in question will have been chasing butterflies on a cloud for years.

[John]

Is it wise to introduce VRDs mistakenly signalling mushrooms to add to the confusion?

Welcome back misty, let's not forget our manners folks.

[misty]

Welcome back misty, let's not forget our manners folks.

Thanks, John. 

[Carana]

@ Misty

Welcome back. Good to see you again. 

[stephen25000]

This bit?

Kip correctly identified the odours derived from decomposition and was not distracted by the “negative control” smells.  It was a successful demonstration.  But in the field, VR dogs can sometimes be distracted by “false positives”, such as dead animals, or even mushrooms, explained Lorna.  If she can arrive at a greater understanding of the chemistry of odours from human cadavers, then VR dogs can be extra efficient.

“If you train a dog with a chemical that is specific to human decomposition, you can enhance its ability.  It is not about changing the way the dogs do it, but improving it,” she added.

Dogs have also been distracted by methane from peat bogs.

Personally, I don't agree with the "dogs are useless" camp any more than I do with the "dogs are always accurate in detecting human corpses" camp.

They're a tool. Sometimes they lead to evidence, sometimes they lead to a red herring, and sometimes there's just an unresolved question mark pending further eliminatory investigation - which may or may not ever take place.

If methane, mushrooms or any other odour can lead to an irrelevant alert, then I find that worth researching, particularly when some people can end up on death row for the flimsiest of reasons and by the time the appeals process is over, the dogs in question will have been chasing butterflies on a cloud for years.

So do we have some magic mushrooms in this case now as well ?

[stephen25000]

So the dogs who were supposed to have a 100% record
who were supposed to have never made a false alert in 200 cases
who according to amaral had been responsible for 200 convictions....have produced alerts that are worthless

If they were worthless, why keep commenting ?

It's not as though you have any chance of changing anybodies mind on the issue.

[Benice]

If they were worthless, why keep commenting ?

It's not as though you have any chance of changing anybodies mind on the issue.

The discussion is interesting to some of us Stephen.  If you don't like it - don't read it.

[stephen25000]

The discussion is interesting to some of us Stephen.  If you don't like it - don't read it.

It is only continued in an effort to dismiss the indications of the dogs .

However, in reality it achieves the complete opposite.

[Brietta]

That's interesting Alfie.

Forensics research to make cadaver dogs more efficient

Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:24:00 BST

“They are mostly used for human remains detection, not just in murder cases but for suicides too.  For example, if somebody has been hit by a train, the dogs are used to locate body parts.  They have also been used after incidents such as the 7/7 bombings.

“They can also be used for blood detection, if there has been an assault for example, and in Lancashire they train their dogs to identify semen as well, so they can be used in sexual assault cases,” said Lorna.


As at Aug 2014, there still doesn't appear to be any global criteria concerning what such dogs are trained to alert to or to ignore. And this is seven years later.

Good find by Alfred.

Sadly there are occasions when the dogs fail to find remains despite what must have been their best effort.  It took the determination of her friend to keep the search going before Susan McLean's body was found.

Perhaps like, Mr Amaral the police were giving too much trust to the dog alerts. 
In the case of Portugal the alerts ... in the case of Scotland the lack of them.




Retired US officer travels to Scotland to find her pal's body and slams police failure to find missing tourist
06:00, 19 AUGUST 2015
BY JAMES MONCUR

A RETIRED US army colonel who travelled to Scotland in search of her missing friend has attacked police’s failure to find the woman’s body.

Lorna VanderZanden and a team of volunteers uncovered the remains of Susan McLean at the weekend.

Susan, 61, from Pennsylvania, was on holiday with husband Donald when she disappeared from a hotel in Aberfeldy, Perthshire, three months ago.

And Lorna is furious police were unable to find her in that time, despite using specialist teams including dog handlers and divers.

She said they had passed within feet of the body at one point as they searched the Loch Hoil trail – but chose not to enter the heavily wooded area.

Lorna, 61, said yesterday: “I am totally astonished I could come here and find Susan in four weeks with eight volunteers on two Saturdays when Police Scotland could not find her in three months.

“I was told repeatedly that police and cadaver dogs had searched the entire area from Moness to Gatehouse Nursery to Loch Hoil trail to the Birks of Aberfeldy.

“We found her a couple of hundred yards north of Loch Hoil trail, 25ft from the edge of a section of forest. How could police and cadaver dogs miss her when she was so close to the secondary trail just north of Loch Hoil trail?”

Lorna added that she can’t imagine life without her friend.

She said: “I’ve known her for 27 years and she was closer than a sister. I just couldn’t stay in the U.S and not know what happened.”

Donald added: “I miss Susan every day, especially when I care for our horses or water her flowers. My life and those of my sons and friends are changed forever.”

The criticism of the search for Susan comes just weeks after police bungled the handling of a call to a car crash, leaving tragic Lamara Bell lying in a wrecked car next to her dead boyfriend for three days. She later died in hospital.

Police yesterday confirmed the body was that of Susan.

Superintendent Graeme Murdoch said: “It is my critical assessment, even with hindsight, that our search strategy was sound although it is always frustrating that extensive searches do not yield an early positive outcome.

“Now that remains have been found, I sincerely hope that this will allow some measure of closure for the family and friends.”
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/retired-officer-travels-scotland-find-6277011