Amaral and the dogs

[Alfred R Jones]

An excellent example of that was what occurred in the underground garage where the McCann's hire car sat parked in a corner at the end of a line of other cars with the Madeleine posters on it.  Eddie made no reaction to the McCann's car and had to be called back several times by Mr Grime before eventually reacting at the drivers door.  That one incident illustrates perfectly how a handler can impact on the dog and its alerts.

[Mr Gray]

Curiously or otherwise, the only places and objects alerted to by Eddie have associations with the McCanns.   Are we to accept this was purely accidental or is there something more sinister in it all?

Or was it a case of, if you point the dogs to the same places and objects often enough, sooner or later they will react?

You are bang on John

[Carew]

An excellent example of that was what occurred in the underground garage where the McCanns hire car sat parked in a corner at the end of a line of other cars with the Madeleine posters on it.  Eddie made no reaction to the McCann's car and had to be called back several times by Mr Grime before eventually reacting at the drivers door.  That one incident illustrates perfectly how a handler can impact on the dog and its alerts.

Mr Grime reports noticing a change in the dog`s behaviour between the 2 cars, as he did with the start of the investigation in 5A.

Isn`t the directing a part of the "handling" procedure to focus the dog?

The handler felt the dog was in scent but what is being said in effect, is that this was not so.

We have a handler who said it was.

[ferryman]

Mr Grime reports noticing a change in the dog`s behaviour between the 2 cars, as he did with the start of the investigation in 5A.

Isn`t the directing a part of the "handling" procedure to focus the dog?

The handler felt the dog was in scent but what is being said in effect, is that this was not so.

We have a handler who said it was.

Why do you suppose the video of the vehicle inspection was, afterwards, handed to Grime for his own, personal, use (as a free-lance dog handler)?

[Carana]

Thanks Carana,  so he was extra trained from a victim recovery dog to an enhanced victim recovery dog,  yet a forensic dog is trained solely on human remains.

Training and terminology don't appear to conform to any universal standard at the moment.

[mercury]

Have you forgotten what it said in the article I give you a link to already?

In the article it states that an alert by a cadaver dog needs to be taken with caution as someone could have left a bloody rag or a sanitary pad in the spot where the dog is alerting.

Isn't it strange how some don't like criticism of Grime yet are quick to laugh and mock at what other experts at training cadaver dogs say.

edited to add -

Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.

I do not know which  link you refer to as there have been so many asserting this that or the other. In the end, they are for various cadaver dogs worldwide with different handlers, training and way of working, alerts, performance and results. We are talking about Eddie the EVRD dog and Mr Grime specifically has stated Eddie was NOT trained for "live human" odours. He was trained on decomposing piglets initially and then mainly on  human corpses.Decomposing teeth, nails, human tissue, blood ,urine, nappy pooh and all the rest, etc from live humans do not develop the same scent as corpse decomposition.
See his rogatory interview.
BTW There is no reference anywhere to Eddie ever being a search and rescue dog. The above should show that. No mention of cross training either. No mention or record of deployment to find missing live people.

[Lace]

I do not know which  link you refer to as there have been so many asserting this that or the other. In the end, they are for various cadaver dogs worldwide with different handlers, training and way of working, alerts, performance and results. We are talking about Eddie the EVRD dog and Mr Grime specifically has stated Eddie was NOT trained for "live human" odours. He was trained on decomposing piglets initially and then mainly on  human corpses.Decomposing teeth, nails, human tissue, blood ,urine, nappy pooh and all the rest, etc from live humans do not develop the same scent as corpse decomposition.
See his rogatory interview.
BTW There is no reference anywhere to Eddie ever being a search and rescue dog. The above should show that. No mention of cross training either. No mention or record of deployment to find missing live people.

I have given you the section of the article referring to cadaver dogs being to detect the scent of blood even if the article isn't there.

Eddie was trained as a victim recovery dog by using pigs,   then had 'enhanced'   training with dead human bodies.   Forensic search dogs are only trained using dead human bodies and nothing else,  therefore Eddie was cross trained.

[Lace]

I do not know which  link you refer to as there have been so many asserting this that or the other. In the end, they are for various cadaver dogs worldwide with different handlers, training and way of working, alerts, performance and results. We are talking about Eddie the EVRD dog and Mr Grime specifically has stated Eddie was NOT trained for "live human" odours. He was trained on decomposing piglets initially and then mainly on  human corpses.Decomposing teeth, nails, human tissue, blood ,urine, nappy pooh and all the rest, etc from live humans do not develop the same scent as corpse decomposition.
See his rogatory interview.
BTW There is no reference anywhere to Eddie ever being a search and rescue dog. The above should show that. No mention of cross training either. No mention or record of deployment to find missing live people.

Also Grime said that Eddie will alert to blood,  indeed Eddie alerted to the key fob which had Gerry's blood on it and he is very much alive.

[Brietta]

I do not know which  link you refer to as there have been so many asserting this that or the other. In the end, they are for various cadaver dogs worldwide with different handlers, training and way of working, alerts, performance and results. We are talking about Eddie the EVRD dog and Mr Grime specifically has stated Eddie was NOT trained for "live human" odours. He was trained on decomposing piglets initially and then mainly on  human corpses.Decomposing teeth, nails, human tissue, blood ,urine, nappy pooh and all the rest, etc from live humans do not develop the same scent as corpse decomposition.
See his rogatory interview.
BTW There is no reference anywhere to Eddie ever being a search and rescue dog. The above should show that. No mention of cross training either. No mention or record of deployment to find missing live people.

              You are aware that it is illegal to train dogs "mainly on human corpses" in Britain?

[G-Unit]

Police use the dogs in most cases of disappearance these days. They sometimes find evidence and sometimes they provide clues as to what may have happened. In the McCann case they found some evidence and some clues in my opinion.

[mercury]

I have given you the section of the article referring to cadaver dogs being to detect the scent of blood even if the article isn't there.

Eddie was trained as a victim recovery dog by using pigs,   then had 'enhanced'   training with dead human bodies.   Forensic search dogs are only trained using dead human bodies and nothing else,  therefore Eddie was cross trained.

Oh sorry, I didnt realise that quote was from the said link,my apologies

Cross trained does not mean moving from dead pigs to dead humans....that is how cadaver dogs are trained in the uk and he then moved to training in the usa where training on human bodies is allowed...the training has the same goal..to look for decomposed bodies/remains not live humans or live humans' various "sheddings"

(with the exception of blood)

[stephen25000]

              You are aware that it is illegal to train dogs "mainly on human corpses" in Britain?

That's been gone over before.

[G-Unit]

I have given you the section of the article referring to cadaver dogs being to detect the scent of blood even if the article isn't there.

Eddie was trained as a victim recovery dog by using pigs,   then had 'enhanced'   training with dead human bodies.   Forensic search dogs are only trained using dead human bodies and nothing else,  therefore Eddie was cross trained.

Eddie was trained to find the scent of a dead human, initially using decomposing piglets which smell so similar that VRD's trained in this way can find dead humans. His training was enhanced when he was given the actual scent of a dead human. No cross-training, all his training was aimed at finding dead human beings.

[mercury]

              You are aware that it is illegal to train dogs "mainly on human corpses" in Britain?

yes, thats why the handler/trainer travelled to  the usa to do it

!

[ferryman]

yes, thats why the handler/trainer travelled to  the usa to do it

!

With a dog about 18 months from retirement?

And given that we have a tried-and-trusted method of training cadaver dogs in Britain (also used in States of the United States where use of human remains is similarly prohibited) because we regard it as unethical to use human body parts or remains, why would we indulge both the expense and the hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways banned as unethical here?