Amaral and the dogs

[Alice Purjorick]

Yet again.

If the mccanns have nothing to fear about the dog alerts, why all the bother on this thread ?

It won't change minds.

Nor what is written in the Archiving Report.
Maybe some posters have aspirations to doing PhD's in organic chemistry?

[Mr Gray]

Yet again.

If the mccanns have nothing to fear about the dog alerts, why all the bother on this thread ?

It won't change minds.

yet again...your logic is flawed
the mccanns have nothing at all to be concerned about re the alerts...they are worthless and the mccanns must know that

no one is trying to change anyone's mind...we are simply having a discussion

[Carew]

Training materials for dogs include earth from a body deposition site; I don't think there is any doubt that Eddie would be highly likely to alert to earth which had been enriched with fertiliser which includes pig extracts.

Particularly since he was trained using pig and there is proof from Mr Grime's report that even dogs trained only on human remains had alerted 100% to pig.

"You don`t think there is any doubt that Eddie would be highly likely"...... etc.

Sounding very authoritive.

Is this to tie in with Lace`s post yesterday opining that Eddie`s alert to the garden could link with the alerts in the apartment due to people possibly treading the scent from decaying vegetation/compost etc., in on their footwear?

Another idea to bear in mind, but to couch it in terms such as you used is really no better than the assertions that an alert by Eddie must mean that a body lay in 5A, which you so deplore, is it ?

[Mr Gray]

Nor what is written in the Archiving Report.
Maybe some posters have aspirations to doing PhD's in organic chemistry?

the archiving report is supportive of the mccanns innocence

[Brietta]

I came across something similar concerning chickens very recently... possibly yesterday. It might have been from a handler saying that decomposing chicken smells more like human decomp than that of pigs. I don't think I noted it as at the time it seemed to be just an opinion.

I HAD found a scientific study comparing various animal VOCs with those of humans, but I've never been able to find it again, although I did hunt extensively for it. It may have been taken off the Internet for copyright reasons as some likely links that I'd bookmarked to find it again sent me to "page not available".

I had that problem with some that I bookmarked some time ago ... I got into some by clicking on a link in the page not found notification.

I've read a lot about it as there are quite a few papers out there ... some of it way above my head.

The ones I have read about pig/chicken VOC seem to be concentrated more towards farming and the attendant pollution from the smells generated by the livestock.

What I am noticing is that those working in the field seem to still think pig scent and similarity of decomposition is the closest to human despite scientific studies saying there are more matching VOC in chickens.
I think these are the guys likely to know what they are talking about.


Mary Cabik seems to be an authority on the subject as she is quoted everywhere; the work is copyright protected, it seems that includes the abstract so I'm not sure if it will be allowed to stay on the forum for long.

Abstract:
Forensic Sci Int. 2012 Jul 10;220(1-3):118-25. doi: 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.02.007. Epub 2012 Mar 15.
Characterization of the volatile organic compounds present in the headspace of decomposing animal remains, and compared with human remains.
Cablk ME1, Szelagowski EE, Sagebiel JC.
Author information
1Desert Research Institute, 2215 Raggio Parkway, Reno, NV 89512, USA. mary.cablk@dri.edu
Abstract
Human Remains Detection (HRD) dogs can be a useful tool to locate buried human remains because they rely on olfactory rather than visual cues. Trained specifically to locate deceased humans, it is widely believed that HRD dogs can differentiate animal remains from human remains. This study analyzed the volatile organic compounds (VOCs) present in the headspace above partially decomposed animal tissue samples and directly compared them with results published from human tissues using established solid-phase microextraction (SPME) and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC/MS) methods. Volatile organic compounds present in the headspace of four different animal tissue samples (bone, muscle, fat and skin) from each of cow, pig and chicken were identified and compared to published results from human samples. Although there were compounds common to both animal and human remains, the VOC signatures of each of the animal remains differed from those of humans. Of particular interest was the difference between pigs and humans, because in some countries HRD dogs are trained on pig remains rather than human remains. Pig VOC signatures were not found to be a subset of human; in addition to sharing only seven of thirty human-specific compounds, an additional nine unique VOCs were recorded from pig samples which were not present in human samples. The VOC signatures from chicken and human samples were most similar sharing the most compounds of the animals studied. Identifying VOCs that are unique to humans may be useful to develop human-specific training aids for HRD canines, and may eventually lead to an instrument that can detect clandestine human burial sites.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22424672



Pig and human
https://ir.library.dc-uoit.ca/bitstream/10155/315/1/Stadler_Sonja.pdf

[Brietta]

Yet again.

If the mccanns have nothing to fear about the dog alerts, why all the bother on this thread ?

It won't change minds.

You really should accept the reality of the situation which has been so succinctly explained by Mr Grime.  There are some minds which unfortunately are incapable of being changed whatever the evidence ... the only danger they seem to represent to society is that they are probably eligible for jury duty.

[Brietta]

"You don`t think there is any doubt that Eddie would be highly likely"...... etc.

Sounding very authoritive.

Is this to tie in with Lace`s post yesterday opining that Eddie`s alert to the garden could link with the alerts in the apartment due to people possibly treading the scent from decaying vegetation/compost etc., in on their footwear?

Another idea to bear in mind, but to couch it in terms such as you used is really no better than the assertions that an alert by Eddie must mean that a body lay in 5A, which you so deplore, is it ?

Thank you for thinking I sound authoritative when in fact my post contains many caveats.

The clear fact arising from Eddie's alerts in the apartment are they mean absolutely nothing

No one - not even his handler knows what Eddie may have been reacting to - for the simple reason nothing was found which could be tested forensically to say exactly what that may have been.
 

[stephen25000]

You really should accept the reality of the situation which has been so succinctly explained by Mr Grime.  There are some minds which unfortunately are incapable of being changed whatever the evidence ... the only danger they seem to represent to society is that they are probably eligible for jury duty.

The dogs were trained to respond to a specific range of compounds.

They indicated in several locations.

The clear metaphorical blindness is shared by you and others.

 That is why you continue to cut and paste articles again and again.

[Mr Gray]

The dogs were trained to respond to a specific range of compounds.

They indicated in several locations.

The clear metaphorical blindness is shared by you and others.

 That is why you continue to cut and paste articles again and again.

listen to what Grime says....no evidential reliability...fact

[ferryman]

listen to what Grime says....no evidential reliability...fact

I (genuinely) think it's a good thing to listen selectively to Grime ....

[Mr Gray]

 In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.

this is also what Grime says...no confirmation of cadaver scent according to Grime

[stephen25000]

In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.

this is also what Grime says...no confirmation of cadaver scent according to Grime

Neither did he dismiss it either.

and it wasn't his job to either.

That's the job of the forensic scientists, and just to remind everyone, inconclusive means what it says.

[Carew]

Thank you for thinking I sound authoritative when in fact my post contains many caveats.

The clear fact arising from Eddie's alerts in the apartment are they mean absolutely nothing

No one - not even his handler knows what Eddie may have been reacting to - for the simple reason nothing was found which could be tested forensically to say exactly what that may have been.

Which means that your pig fertiliser possibility is no more likely a source for the alerts than the cadaver of the missing person.

The "discussions" and derogatory comments are intended to give that impression, though aren`t they?

[stephen25000]

Which means that your pig fertiliser possibility is no more likely a source for the alerts than the cadaver of the missing person.

The "discussions" and derogatory comments are intended to give that impression, though aren`t they?

It's pure desperation.

[Mr Gray]

Neither did he dismiss it either.

and it wasn't his job to either.

That's the job of the forensic scientists, and just to remind everyone, inconclusive means what it says.

so what evidence did the dogs find..absolutely nothing