Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 841498 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3420 on: August 23, 2015, 09:19:16 AM »
As I see it he was brought in on the recommendation of Mark Harrison. He searched with his dogs where he was asked. His dogs alerted to various McCann related locations and objects. He says several times that the alerts must be confirmed by forensic findings. He also says several times that the dogs alert only to the scents they are trained to find.

With regard to cuddle cat, he is quite clear I think, considering he has already stated numerous times that the dogs only alert when they find the scent they are trained to find;

'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy
.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

so he didn't answer the question....I find that strange

could you provide a cite where Grime says the dogs ONLY alert to the scent they are trained to find

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3421 on: August 23, 2015, 09:33:50 AM »
As I see it he was brought in on the recommendation of Mark Harrison. He searched with his dogs where he was asked. His dogs alerted to various McCann related locations and objects. He says several times that the alerts must be confirmed by forensic findings. He also says several times that the dogs alert only to the scents they are trained to find.

With regard to cuddle cat, he is quite clear I think, considering he has already stated numerous times that the dogs only alert when they find the scent they are trained to find;

'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

The part I underline is simply not true.

Harrison recommended searches only in those places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably) might have been: the holiday apartments, vehicles owned or driven by Murat and areas in and around PdL.

How the other searches evolved (and how the other vehicles were included) is a mystery, not obviously answered in the files.

Harrison does make reference to searches in places Madeleine never lived in or went near, but the way he words it is completely different from his wording in respect of those searches he recommended.

And there is no mention at all of the inspection in the gym until it is about to happen.

How did that come about?

The only apparent explanation is from Amaral's book.

There was no justification for inspection of clothing at all.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3422 on: August 23, 2015, 10:07:13 AM »
The part I underline is simply not true.

Harrison recommended searches only in those places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably) might have been: the holiday apartments, vehicles owned or driven by Murat and areas in and around PdL.

How the other searches evolved (and how the other vehicles were included) is a mystery, not obviously answered in the files.

Harrison does make reference to searches in places Madeleine never lived in or went near, but the way he words it is completely different from his wording in respect of those searches he recommended.

And there is no mention at all of the inspection in the gym until it is about to happen.

How did that come about?

The only apparent explanation is from Amaral's book.

There was no justification for inspection of clothing at all.

You should have added, in your opinion, which holds no weight whatsoever.

Please explain why clothing should not have been expected.


Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3423 on: August 23, 2015, 10:10:23 AM »
You should have added, in your opinion, which holds no weight whatsoever.

Please explain why clothing should not have been expected.

what ferryman posted is true......Harrison selected  certain areas to be searched and the PJ added further locations

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3424 on: August 23, 2015, 10:23:01 AM »
what ferryman posted is true......Harrison selected  certain areas to be searched and the PJ added further locations

That doesn't answer the question.

it would be quite logical to inspect clothing.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3425 on: August 23, 2015, 10:23:59 AM »
I've never taken the alerts seriously to be honest.

There was too much calling back where as in the other apartments Eddie just ran in and out more or less.

I think he alerted to blood behind the sofa but I don't believe it had anything to do with Madeleine,   let's be honest would there just be a speck of blood UNDER A TILE if that had anything to do with Madeleine falling banging her head and bleeding from the blow?

The other alerts Cuddle Cat Eddie played with it picking it up in his mouth,   the clothes again Eddie picked them up in his mouth,  he looked to be playing with them.

In the garden in my opinion it was probably the garden fertiliser.

on what scientific basis do you make that judgement ?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3426 on: August 23, 2015, 10:36:30 AM »
You should have added, in your opinion, which holds no weight whatsoever.

Please explain why clothing should not have been expected.

This was not clothing kept in some special storage awaiting inspection. 

This was clothing in common circulation as clothing is: worn, washed, hung out on washing lines, packed in suit cases (and all the rest) for fully 3 months after Madeleine's abduction.

What would they have been looking for?  Traces of Madeleine's blood (obviously microscopic, because blood in quantities visible to the naked human eye wouldn't require a dog to find it).

And if they had found microscopic traces of Madeleine's blood on any clothing, so what?

Madeleine sat on mummy's knee or Daddy's knee, has a nose blood or other minor abrasion and blood transfers to clothing.

What would that prove?

Here is Harrison's summary of all searches:

The timeline of these searches was as follows:
 
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
 
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
 
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
 
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
 
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
 
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
 
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
 
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
 
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
 


Harrison acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs only in those searches he recommended: the holiday apartments, the Murat's place (which I should have mentioned earlier), and areas in and around PdL.

Both inspections at the villa and at the gym, he summarises as PJ exercises.

And he gives no clue at all who took part in the inspection of vehicles.

We can confidently state that Amaral's account in his book of how the inspection in the gym came about is a lie.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3427 on: August 23, 2015, 10:37:27 AM »
on what scientific basis do you make that judgement ?

on what scientific basis do you support the alerts...Grime has told us all the alerts cannot be validated scientifically..

the lack of scientific basis for validation is the root of the controversy around them

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3428 on: August 23, 2015, 10:45:45 AM »
on what scientific basis do you support the alerts...Grime has told us all the alerts cannot be validated scientifically..

the lack of scientific basis for validation is the root of the controversy around them

Why are dogs employed in forensic searches dave ?

Please remind us.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3429 on: August 23, 2015, 10:47:47 AM »
Why are dogs employed in forensic searches dave ?

Please remind us.

They aren't.

They look for stuff that can be subject to forensic examination (in laboratories).

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3430 on: August 23, 2015, 10:48:55 AM »
This was not clothing kept in some special storage awaiting inspection. 

This was clothing in common circulation as clothing is: worn, washed, hung out on washing lines, packed in suit cases (and all the rest) for fully 3 months after Madeleine's abduction.

What would they have been looking for?  Traces of Madeleine's blood (obviously microscopic, because blood in quantities visible to the naked human eye wouldn't require a dog to find it).

And if they had found microscopic traces of Madeleine's blood on any clothing, so what?

Madeleine sat on mummy's knee or Daddy's knee, has a nose blood or other minor abrasion and blood transfers to clothing.

What would that prove?

Here is Harrison's summary of all searches:

The timeline of these searches was as follows:
 
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
 
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
 
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
 
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
 
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
 
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
 
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
 
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
 
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
 


Harrison acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs only in those searches he recommended: the holiday apartments, the Murat's place (which I should have mentioned earlier), and areas in and around PdL.

Both inspections at the villa and at the gym, he summarises as PJ exercises.

And he gives no clue at all who took part in the inspection of vehicles.

We can confidently state that Amaral's account in his book of how the inspection in the gym came about is a lie.


'We can confidently state that Amaral's account in his book of how the inspection in the gym came about is a lie'

Who is this 'we' again  ?

Where you in Portugal at the time ?

I would venture to suggest that forensic examination of clothing is a standard procedure. in criminal investigations.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3431 on: August 23, 2015, 10:51:17 AM »
Why are dogs employed in forensic searches dave ?

Please remind us.

To find evidence......it is a simple as that. I have explained this to you several times
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 10:53:23 AM by davel »

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3432 on: August 23, 2015, 10:51:42 AM »
They aren't.

They look for stuff that can be subject to forensic examination (in laboratories).

'look for stuff'  ???

As a general reference point .....................

http://aboutforensics.co.uk/detection-dogs/

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3433 on: August 23, 2015, 10:54:46 AM »
'look for stuff'  ???

As a general reference point .....................

http://aboutforensics.co.uk/detection-dogs/

looks like your article agrees totally with me...no surprise

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3434 on: August 23, 2015, 11:00:22 AM »
looks like your article agrees totally with me...no surprise


Dogs are trained to respond to certain compounds and when they detect them, they react.

Quite right.

and these did.