Amaral and the dogs

[Alfred R Jones]

Of course alfred.


and pigs don't lie.

Here's a simple question for you Stephen: on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being completely meaningless and 10 being solid proof of the presence of a cadaver) where would you put Eddie & Keela's alerts?

[sadie]

You are doing a lot of snarling today stephen

Up a corner, are you ?   Having difficulty wriggling out?


Why dont you answer the questions stephen?   Mistys and mine.


Gotta go, but will be pleased to see if you have grasped the nettle when I come back

[stephen25000]

Here's a simple question for you Stephen: on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being completely meaningless and 10 being solid proof of the presence of a cadaver) where would you put Eddie & Keela's alerts?

In terms of probability 7-8.

That was based upon the report I posted last week and others I have read in the past.

Simply because dogs are trained to respond to a group of compounds.

The dogs made alerts.

Mccann supporters such as yourself are, lets face it, hardly likely top accept the dogs alerted to a body

I can't give any higher as I have not seen the entire recordings of what happened with the dogs, nor has anyone on here i would surmise.

and since the forensic results were inconclusive, we will go on forever, with no end in sight .

Meanwhile of course, no pig residue was found.

So those who believe the dogs were responding to pig traces are honking up the wrong tree.

[Carew]

Not one of the posters to whom you refer is voicing an opinion ... without exception all quote references to scientific studies ~ reports ~ including the comments made by Mr Grime.

Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

It can work for propaganda purposes, though.

[stephen25000]

You are doing a lot of snarling today stephen

Up a corner, are you ?   Having difficulty wriggling out?


Why dont you answer the questions stephen?   Mistys and mine.


Gotta go, but will be pleased to see if you have grasped the nettle when I come back

I have answered the questions sadie.

However, you are too blind and mccann obsessed to see it.

P.S. I don't 'snarl'. Try to tell the difference between that and sarcasm.

[Carew]

Whatever.  You win.  The dog alerts are extremely important evidence and probably almost definitely maybe prove the McCanns dunnit.  There you go, that's right isn't it? 

See I can be facetious too...

Calling me facetious is becoming a habit.

Could it be a convenient way to cover up your cop-out mode when faced with points you can`t bluster through?

( ooops...... could be!)   

[Carana]

On 6 August 2007, at 15h17, a canine inspection was performed in the following motor cars, this
being done on level -4 of the above-mentioned underground car park:
[list of cars: Opel Corsa; Fiat Punto; Peugeot 205; Renault Scenic; Skodia Fabia; VW Transporter;
Nissan Patrol; VW Passat; Audi A4; Renault Kangoo.]

Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour,
examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having
been verified the following result:

15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
and Kate McCann.

Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert
examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that
began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having
been verified the following result:

03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car;

04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the
Budget rental company.

In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
park.

At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.

At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

08-Processo Volume 8 pages 2186 to 2188
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm


[/list]

[Eleanor]

Lets keep it polite and on topic, please.

[Mr Gray]

In terms of probability 7-8.

That was based upon the report I posted last week and others I have read in the past.

Simply because dogs are trained to respond to a group of compounds.

The dogs made alerts.

Mccann supporters such as yourself are, lets face it, hardly likely top accept the dogs alerted to a body

I can't give any higher as I have not seen the entire recordings of what happened with the dogs, nor has anyone on here i would surmise.

and since the forensic results were inconclusive, we will go on forever, with no end in sight .

Meanwhile of course, no pig residue was found.

So those who believe the dogs were responding to pig traces are honking up the wrong tree.

is this just a personal opinion or is it backed by any sort of data

[stephen25000]

is this just a personal opinion or is it backed by any sort of data

Read.

[Mr Gray]

Read.

are you willing to debate your claim in a civilised manner

[Carana]

A few intriguing details looking at the video again. ...

- Assuming that the composite video is the entirety of what Levy originally posted, there doesn't appear to be the scene where Eddie is supposed to have had a free roam to ensure a lack of pre-existing odours.

- Keela alerting to the door compartment isn't shown.

- The sandbox scenes aren't shown.

- How the cars got there (driven, or on a low-loader) isn't shown.

- The move to level -3 for the forensic then Keela inspection isn't shown.

- At 1.24:35 ish Grime explaining Eddie's reaction to seal of door and Grime stating that he did NOT intend to put Eddie in the car (contrary to TdeA's report, then 1.24:54 ish - sudden cut to Grime opening door for Keela. Keela had a sniff in the front (can only really see Grime peering in through the window), then at the back. Then he opens the boot to direct her where to sniff. The door glove compartment scene takes place after the boot one, according to the written report, but isn't shown in the video.

[ferryman]

Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

It can work for propaganda purposes, though.

Does it not, at the very least, give you cause for concern that Grime was handed the video of the vehicle inspection for personal, promotional, purposes?

Or that that was the one (and only!) inspection where he wore the anti-cross contamination overalls of his trade?

[stephen25000]

are you willing to debate your claim in a civilised manner

Civilized manner ?
uc
Your history of calling other posters liars and isnulting their intelligence is not condusive to good debate.

[Mr Gray]

Civilized manner ?
uc
Your history of calling other posters liars and isnulting their intelligence is not condusive to good debate.

you have made several claims......your latest is a probability of 7 to 8

I can't see how you can support this with any sort of evidence...
would you be prepared to debate this in a civilised manner then others can make up their own minds