Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 841577 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4260 on: August 28, 2015, 08:21:02 PM »
Then let's hope SY agree with you.

as they have said maddie may still be alive they obviously do

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4261 on: August 28, 2015, 09:14:15 PM »
as they have said maddie may still be alive they obviously do

Is that somewhere on top of a big fluffy mountain near a lawless village 10 miles from PDL ?

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4262 on: August 28, 2015, 09:51:28 PM »
Quote from: Brietta
Deposition of: JOHN ROBERT LOWE BSc CBiol MlBiol RFP Age: Older than 18

Profession of Witness: Forensic Scientist

FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 8
An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key -  (286C/2007-CRL (12)).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

Just to clarify matters for you ...
there is no 'cherry picking' or obfuscation involved as I have made it plain that the reference quoted was made by Mr Grime in relation to what he had to say about Eddie's deployment in the garage
what a pity you assume I was patronising you as you have progressed to illustrate that you have clearly not understood what has been previously posted ... let me explain ...
Eddie woofed ... not at the boot where Keela subsequently alerted ... but at the driver's door of the Renault ... where Keela also alerted
according to Mr Grime Keela alerts only to blood ... therefore both these alerts were to blood
the Renault was moved to another floor of the garage
the key fob was secreted at a distance (fire service's bucket of sand)
Keela alerted to the key fob
Eddie alerted to the key fob
Eddie did not alert to the Renault from which the key fob had been removed
therefore Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent
Eddie alerted to what Keela did ... which we are told could only have been blood
I hope that helps you to a better understanding of my post.

You said nothng about Grime's comments pertaining to the garage, if you had done I wouldn't have responded with the words I did (ie that the only place he said in his opinion Eddie may have been alerting to cadaver scent OR blood)


Quote from: Brietta
As far as I understand it, Ferryman, Morse was fully accredited having been subject to regular independent testing ... also he was trained only on human scent.

Cite? morse was being trained in the UK in 2008, and as we are told, training on human bodies is illegal.



 
Quote from: Brietta
... and even if the hairs had been Madeleine's, without a root they would have signified nothing other than they were hers.

If death banding had been looked for, they would have signified more, but the PJs's request seems to have been ignored by the UK


Quote from: Anna

The more benevolent  minded, of members, remain to question or even rule out the alerts of the dog, which I might add…have no evidential value, without corroboration of evidential proof.

Whereas the more sceptic views, of other members remain in the believe that the alerts from the EVRD were evidence of  cadaver scent. Who knows? They may be correct, but there is no evidence to support this.

IMO, The latter group would still be blaming the parents, even if the dogs hadn’t been brought in, whereas the former believe in innocent until proven otherwise.

A book is the cause of all of this and the fact that this case (unlike others) has all the PJ files online for all to study…. Only My opinion, of course.

Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent, it is not somethng plucked out of "sceptics unbenevolent" heads.

Which book? Surely not Amaral's? The news about the cadaver dog alerts was in the public domain and under discussion in the summer of 2007 a whole year before he published his book.


Quote from: davel
So indications is just another word for alerts....so the indications have NO evidential value either

No, an alert gives an indication of something, not the same, two different things. The indication, given by the EVRD dog's alerts, (and yes there are other EVRDs in use by police in the UK according to the BBC at least) in Grime's  own words, is to cadaver scent contaminant. (Or blood - the latter only in the case of the garage searches)
Unconfirmed indications have been described as legitimate cause for concern/suspicion, not much else on their own, but indications remain intelligence/circumstantial evidence. [/quote]

Quote from: Ferryman
Why did Mark Harrison dismiss both inspections at villa and gym with these terse words?
Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4508.15


Quote from: davel
I'm sure that poople as stupid as yourself will think I have made mistakes.....there you are a hat trick

Why do you feel the need to continuously break forum rules, being derogatory and calling people fools, stupid, uneducated, with poor understanding, and so on? Just wondering.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 09:58:16 PM by mercury »

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4263 on: August 28, 2015, 10:04:31 PM »
You said nothng about Grime's comments pertaining to the garage, if you had done I wouldn't have responded with the words I did (ie that the only place he said in his opinion Eddie may have been alerting to cadaver scent OR blood)


Cite? morse was being trained in the UK in 2008, and as we are told, training on human bodies is illegal.



 
If death banding had been looked for, they would have signified more, but the PJs's request seems to have been ignored by the UK

 
Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent, it is not somethng plucked out of "sceptics unbenevolent" heads.

Which book? Surely not Amaral's? The news about the cadaver dog alerts was in the public domain and under discussion in the summer of 2007 a whole year before he published his book.


No, an alert gives an indication of something, not the same, two different things. The indication, given by the EVRD dog's alerts, (and yes there are other EVRDs in use by police in the UK according to the BBC at least) in Grime's  own words, is to cadaver scent contaminant. (Or blood - the latter only in the case of the garage searches)
Unconfirmed indications have been described as legitimate cause for concern/suspicion, not much else on their own, but indications remain intelligence/circumstantial evidence.
Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4508.15


Why do you feel the need to continuously break forum rules, being derogatory and calling people fools, stupid, uneducated, with poor understanding, and so on? Just wondering.

Apparently the root cause in many instances is lack of self esteem and a feeling of inferiority.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4264 on: August 28, 2015, 10:10:20 PM »
Apparently the root cause in many instances is lack of self esteem and a feeling of inferiority.

Would overstating/massaging facts about ones own abilities activities and achievements fit into the belittle as much as possible profile?

Wrists are going to get slapped now
 8)-)))


Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4265 on: August 28, 2015, 10:11:02 PM »
You said nothng about Grime's comments pertaining to the garage, if you had done I wouldn't have responded with the words I did (ie that the only place he said in his opinion Eddie may have been alerting to cadaver scent OR blood)


Cite? morse was being trained in the UK in 2008, and as we are told, training on human bodies is illegal.



 
If death banding had been looked for, they would have signified more, but the PJs's request seems to have been ignored by the UK

 
Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent, it is not somethng plucked out of "sceptics unbenevolent" heads.

Which book? Surely not Amaral's? The news about the cadaver dog alerts was in the public domain and under discussion in the summer of 2007 a whole year before he published his book.


No, an alert gives an indication of something, not the same, two different things. The indication, given by the EVRD dog's alerts, (and yes there are other EVRDs in use by police in the UK according to the BBC at least) in Grime's  own words, is to cadaver scent contaminant. (Or blood - the latter only in the case of the garage searches)
Unconfirmed indications have been described as legitimate cause for concern/suspicion, not much else on their own, but indications remain intelligence/circumstantial evidence.
Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4508.15


Why do you feel the need to continuously break forum rules, being derogatory and calling people fools, stupid, uneducated, with poor understanding, and so on? Just wondering.

you seem to have  a problem with the truth...Grime never said that...the rest of your post is full of rubbish too...particularly the innaccurate attack against me


ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4266 on: August 28, 2015, 10:11:33 PM »
Mercury:

Why did Mark Harrison dismiss both inspections at villa and gym with these terse words?
Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were


My evidence is that if you read the whole of Harrison's summary (from which my extract is taken) you will find he acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs in some searches, but not others.

Here is the full summary:

Note that Harrison acknowledges the participation of Grime and his dogs only in the searches he recommended, the places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably, please God not!) MIGHT have been.

In those searches Harrison had nothing to do with, he does not acknowledge the input of Grime and his dogs.

The timeline of these searches was as follows:
 
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
 
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
 
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
 
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
 
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
 
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
 
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
 
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
 
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.




Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4267 on: August 28, 2015, 10:16:39 PM »
Apparently the root cause in many instances is lack of self esteem and a feeling of inferiority.

I think there is a lot of insecurity on this forum...you and others included. That's four posters who have posted unsolicited personal  attacks against me this evening...most of which have been removed. Of course the small minded then post one of my responses totally out of context...yes...insecurity...lack of self esteem...just plain stupidity in some cases. I am quite flattered by yours and others continued personal attacks against me....if you think I am in the slightest offended by these posts you are very much mistaken

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4268 on: August 28, 2015, 10:18:04 PM »
Would overstating/massaging facts about ones own abilities activities and achievements fit into the belittle as much as possible profile?

Wrists are going to get slapped now
 8)-)))

I've led such an interesting successful life it is not surprising that you and others find it  incredible
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 10:21:02 PM by davel »

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4269 on: August 28, 2015, 10:18:18 PM »
Mercury:

Why did Mark Harrison dismiss both inspections at villa and gym with these terse words?
Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were


My evidence is that if you read the whole of Harrison's summary (from which my extract is taken) you will find he acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs in some searches, but not others.

Here is the full summary:

Note that Harrison acknowledges the participation of Grime and his dogs only in the searches he recommended, the places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably, please God not!) MIGHT have been.

In those searches Harrison had nothing to do with, he does not acknowledge the input of Grime and his dogs.

The timeline of these searches was as follows:
 
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
 
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
 
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
 
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
 
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
 
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
 
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
 
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
 
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.


Clutching at straws?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4270 on: August 28, 2015, 10:20:12 PM »
you seem to have  a problem with the truth...Grime never said that...the rest of your post is full of rubbish too...particularly the innaccurate attack against me

You seem to have a comprehension problem..Grime did say that

And yes, my observation of your behaviour is extremely accurate
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 10:24:29 PM by mercury »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4271 on: August 28, 2015, 10:22:25 PM »
You seem to have a comprehension problem..Grime did say that

no he didn't...you seem to have a reading problem...Grime said it was suggestive of cadaver odour NOT that it was...this has been pointed out several times to you but has not yet sunk in...try reading your own post..it's there...

Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4272 on: August 28, 2015, 10:25:06 PM »
I've led such an interesting successful life it is not surprising that you and others find it  incredible

 8(*( 8(*( 8(*(

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4273 on: August 28, 2015, 10:25:37 PM »
no he didn't...you seem to have a reading problem...Grime said it was suggestive of cadaver odour NOT that it was...this has been pointed out several times to you but has not yet sunk in...try reading your own post..it's there...

Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent

Semantics won't help you

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4274 on: August 28, 2015, 10:27:08 PM »
Clutching at straws?

Scarcely.

Grime acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs in the search of: holiday apartments, the villa of the Murats',  and areas in and around PdL.

Both inspections at the gym and the McCanns' villa he summarises as PJ exercises.

And while Harrison did recommend an inspection of vehicles, he recommended only that vehicles owned or driven by Murat should be inspected.

There were 3, one of which never made it, while 8 Harrison never said anything about did make it.

Harrison gives no clue who took part in that inspection.