Amaral and the dogs

[stephen25000]

you make the mistake at looking at figures such as these and relating the directly to remnant scent

No, I'm asking a direct and pertinent question.

[Mr Gray]

The thing is,  other professionals who have trained cadaver dogs,   some from forensic police training have said that these dogs can give false alerts to decaying vegetation.

Grime says Eddie was an 'enhanced' victim recovery dog,   yet the only training Eddie had to become this 'Enhanced dog'   was through going to America and being trained to alert to the decaying human bodies,   which Grime says smells the same as the decaying pig Eddie was trained on at first,   in fact he goes on to say that it was impossible for the dogs to tell the difference between the two and it was impossible to train the dogs to tell the difference between the two.

Now we are to think that Eddie is a super dog better than any other cadaver dog that has been trained in Britain because he had training in America too,   even though it really means nothing.

People who have forensic knowledge of what these dog will or will not alert to have said that an alert by a cadaver dog when there is no body to be found needs to be taken with caution as the dog may be alerting to the scent of something such as a bloody rag or a sanitary pad that could have been in the place where the dog is alerting.

Eddie alerts to blood,   there is no doubt in my mind that Eddie alerted to blood on the key fob as Keela alerted to it too.

Therefore Eddie could well have been alerting to something that had had blood on it in the bedroom,  and was not there any more but the scent remained,    or from something that could have been walked in from the garden and had settled in the grout of the tiles,   or the scent could have gathered in the bedroom from the garden.

So the alert in the bedroom can only be taken with a pinch of salt in my opinion.

no evidential value or reliability is quite a bold statement....it is the sort of statement a defense counsel would use yet Grime has already made it....no wonder the alerts are not admissable

[G-Unit]

In a nutshell, the handler of a dog trained to alert to the scent of dead bodies says that the dog alerted in places in 5a and a dog trained to alert to the scent of blood did not alert in the same place.

A handler with many years experience in training and handling dogs.

[Mr Gray]

A handler with many years experience in training and handling dogs.

how many years experience did Shipman have...I'm not comparing the two but you do not understand that we have the right to question professionals and sometimes those professionals are wrong. Surely you understand that.


and of course he says teh alerts have no evidentail reliability

[Brietta]

What is the % success rate of locating bodies when Martin Grime utilized Eddie and Keela ?

That is unquantifiable since we have no details of all the cases worked and whether human remains were found as a result or not.

However, I believe that Arlene Arkinson's remains have not been found and that many of the victims of the troubles remain to be found ... I'm certain though that had Eddie found any ... we would have heard about it.

So on balance ... I would say very few ... and we appear to have the details of those.


Yorkshire's dogged detectives

24 April 2004
Yorkshire Post
Kate O'Hara

TWO Yorkshire dogs are helping police in Northern Ireland to tackle a 25-year backlog of murders which built up when the force had to focus so heavily on combatting sectarian violence.  The specialist South Yorkshire Police sniffers and their handlers are being called on to mop up more than 150 missing-person and murder cases.

And PCs Martin Grime and John Ellis and their dogs, Eddie and Frankie, have already recorded a success in the first of their grisly investigations. Last week they found the body of pensioner Attracta Harron in Ulster. A 21-year-old student had been charged with her murder, but detectives had failed to find her body until the Yorkshire team joined the search.

The South Yorkshire officers and their dogs have also been called in to help with the hunt for the body of Arlene Arkinson, who disappeared nearly a decade ago, aged 15, on her way home to Co Tyrone, from a disco.

PCs Ellis and Grime and their dogs are due to return to Northern Ireland shortly to continue their search.

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.co.uk/2004/04/yorkshires-dogged-detectives.html

[Alice Purjorick]

Hmmm ... so it appears you and others are of the opinion that if one is a layperson one should not question an 'expert' in his or her particular discipline or pass an opinion.

Have I got that right? 
Bearing in mind that juries sitting in judgement are made up of a variety of lay people tasked with making life changing decisions who are in deep trouble if the judge finds out they have used search engines to inform themselves.  Lay posters on a forum can at least check out the opinions of a variety of experts to help themselves to be better informed.

I think that fact may be the problem you and others may have with lay people versus professional ... that the information is out there to allow the lay person an informed opinion.

In the field of dog training where even science does not know quite what goes on in the nose and the brain of dogs we can access the ongoing studies ... and believe it or not ... work things out for ourselves.

Say I am a structural engineer designing a simple structure; a topic of which you have no knowledge.
You ask me how I go about it and I am happy to explain. You then tell me one of the sections is too small "in your opinion". What is your opinion worth under those circumstances, having about 60 minutes previously not known gee from haw on the subject? Ask searching questions yes, but presumption on the basis of being able to use Google is a bit fatuous.

[Miss Taken Identity]

how many years experience did Shipman have...I'm not comparing the two but you do not understand that we have the right to question professionals and sometimes those professionals are wrong. Surely you understand that.


and of course he says teh alerts have no evidentail reliability

In Bold.. yeah we hear you Davel loud and clear.  Some of us here are questioning medical professionals, much to the annoyance of others, shocking eh?

[Lace]

A handler with many years experience in training and handling dogs.

Yes,   but other professionals in the field have said a cadaver dog could alert to the smell of blood EVEN IF THE BLOOD IS NOT THERE ANYMORE just the scent of it.    Keela would not alert to that as she is trained to alert to blood that is there.

Eddie could have been alerting to the scent from the garden in the bedroom,   or from something that had been on the floor that had had blood on it.

[Mr Gray]

Say I am a structural engineer designing a simple structure; a topic of which you have no knowledge.
You ask me how I go about it and I am happy to explain. You then tell me one of the sections is too small "in your opinion". What is your opinion worth under those circumstances, having about 60 minutes previously not known gee from haw on the subject? Ask searching questions yes, but presumption on the basis of being able to use Google is a bit fatuous.

a

depends how intelligent you are. Are you suggesting we should never question proffesionals...that is clearly wrong...

professionals get things wrong. Ashya Kings father used google to decide on his son's lifesaving traetment and used the knowledge gained to overule the professionals

[sadie]

Yes,   but other professionals in the field have said a cadaver dog could alert to the smell of blood EVEN IF THE BLOOD IS NOT THERE ANYMORE just the scent of it.    Keela would not alert to that as she is trained to alert to blood that is there.

Eddie could have been alerting to the scent from the garden in the bedroom,   or from something that had been on the floor that had had blood on it.

Kate is a woman.  She will have the normal womanly appearances of blood.

[Mr Gray]

In Bold.. yeah we hear you Davel loud and clear.  Some of us here are questioning medical professionals, much to the annoyance of others, shocking eh?

so we are at liberty to question Grime....thanks

[ferryman]

Say I am a structural engineer designing a simple structure; a topic of which you have no knowledge.
You ask me how I go about it and I am happy to explain. You then tell me one of the sections is too small "in your opinion". What is your opinion worth under those circumstances, having about 60 minutes previously not known gee from haw on the subject? Ask searching questions yes, but presumption on the basis of being able to use Google is a bit fatuous.

It is not opinion, but fact, that dogs attending a crime-scene and picking stuff up in their mouths and trampling all over stuff they are tasked to inspect is rank bad practise.

It is not opinion, but fact, that inspecting clothing in common circulation as clothing is for fully 3 months after the crime was never going to yield clues about what happened to Madeleine.  Especially twice.

It is not opinion, but fact, that inspection in places Madeleine never lived in or went near was never going to reveal clues about what happened to her (and didn't!)

It is not opinion but fact (confirmed by Grime in his rogatory interview) that cross-contamination of a death scent is immediate. 

So while packing stuff into cardboard boxes for transportation would (ordinarily) be bad practise, in this instance, it didn't matter, because cross-contamination would long ago already have occurred.

The whole thing was a pile of crock.

Harrison went as far as he dared in his reports in indicating that ....

[Brietta]

Say I am a structural engineer designing a simple structure; a topic of which you have no knowledge.
You ask me how I go about it and I am happy to explain. You then tell me one of the sections is too small "in your opinion". What is your opinion worth under those circumstances, having about 60 minutes previously not known gee from haw on the subject? Ask searching questions yes, but presumption on the basis of being able to use Google is a bit fatuous.

Is there any particular reason why you are a member of a discussion forum if you think it inappropriate to discuss anything in which an honours degree or professional qualification is not held.

Rather limiting and contradictory I would have thought.

Might I respectfully indicate that there are many many places where dogs don't lie and many discussions regarding the findings of the dogs take place on a daily basis, never straying from the script ... you may find those more to your liking.
On this forum members have opinions which are voiced, perhaps changed by discussion, perhaps modified by information and cites provided or maybe even reinforced.  But an exchange of ideas and thinking does go on ... why would anyone wish to curb that?

[pegasus]

It is not opinion, but fact, that dogs attending a crime-scene and picking stuff up in their mouths and trampling all over stuff they are tasked to inspect is rank bad practise.

It is not opinion, but fact, that inspecting clothing in common circulation as clothing is for fully 3 months after the crime was never going to yield clues about what happened to Madeleine.  Especially twice.

It is not opinion, but fact, that inspection in places Madeleine never lived in or went near was never going to reveal clues about what happened to her (and didn't!)

It is not opinion but fact (confirmed by Grime in his rogatory interview) that cross-contamination of a death scent is immediate. 

So while packing stuff into cardboard boxes for transportation would (ordinarily) be bad practise, in this instance, it didn't matter, because cross-contamination would long ago already have occurred.

The whole thing was a pile of crock.

Harrison went as far as he dared in his reports in indicating that ....

In reply to "It is not opinion, but fact, that inspection in places Madeleine never lived in or went near was never going to reveal clues about what happened to her (and didn't!)"

If I mysteriously disappear one night, and later police go to relatives and ask if they can have for testing some of the clothing that had been in my flat on the night I disappeared, are you suggesting the relatives should say no?

[ferryman]

In reply to "It is not opinion, but fact, that inspection in places Madeleine never lived in or went near was never going to reveal clues about what happened to her (and didn't!)"

If I mysteriously disappear one night, and later police go to relatives and ask if they can have for testing some of the clothing that had been in my flat on the night I disappeared, are you suggesting the relatives should say no?

If you are apart from the clothing they want to test, why would they want your clothing?