Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 841593 times)

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Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4530 on: August 29, 2015, 11:47:16 PM »
No it obviously isn't his complete statement but the point under discussion was whether he said the dog alerts were connected with cadaver scent....fast forward.....it doesn't matter when it was written...the FSS have no ability to test cadaver scent....

Funny that...... 

So you quoted only part of that paragraph, presumably hoping that nobody would notice the other bit that was relevant but not quite so helpful to your argument. 

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."

Mercury -a tip  - don't, whatever you do, consider a career in the law, or any other profession which requires honest argument and appraisal.

____________

In the more detailed body of the report, Grime says (excerpt):

All five apartments were searched using the EVRD. The only alert indications
were at apartment 5a, the reported scene.

The EVRD alerted in the:
Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by
the door.


Living room, behind sofa.
Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
Garden area directly under veranda.
My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's
behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.
He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search.
On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an above
average interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent'
and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to
identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.

I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so
alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge.

The dog's behaviour for these alerts led me to the following opinions:

MINISTERIO PUBLICO DE PORTIMAO

The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area
being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible
evidence to be located only the remaining scent.

The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog
was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas
on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was
in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely
presence of human blood.

The forensic science support officers were then deployed to recover items for
laboratory analysis.

and

Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at
Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were
parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle
placement video recording and management of the process was conducted
by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a
vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family,
the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert
indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and
barking. I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from
the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door.

This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the
vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the
boot area. Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a
forensic laboratory in the U.K.

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can
be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating
evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the EVRD without
any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further deployed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

 




Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4531 on: August 29, 2015, 11:51:20 PM »
Funny that...... 

So you quoted only part of that paragraph, presumably hoping that nobody would notice the other bit that was relevant but not quite so helpful to your argument. 

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence."

Mercury -a tip  - don't, whatever you do, consider a career in the law, or any other profession which requires honest argument and appraisal.

____________

In the more detailed body of the report, Grime says (excerpt):

All five apartments were searched using the EVRD. The only alert indications
were at apartment 5a, the reported scene.

The EVRD alerted in the:
Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by
the door.


Living room, behind sofa.
Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
Garden area directly under veranda.
My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's
behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.
He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search.
On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an above
average interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent'
and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to
identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.

I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so
alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge.

The dog's behaviour for these alerts led me to the following opinions:

MINISTERIO PUBLICO DE PORTIMAO

The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area
being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible
evidence to be located only the remaining scent.

The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog
was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas
on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was
in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely
presence of human blood.

The forensic science support officers were then deployed to recover items for
laboratory analysis.

and

Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at
Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were
parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle
placement video recording and management of the process was conducted
by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a
vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family,
the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert
indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and
barking. I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from
the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door.

This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the
vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the
boot area. Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a
forensic laboratory in the U.K.

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can
be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating
evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the EVRD without
any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further deployed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

I'd make a better lawyer than you. there is nothing in your post that suggests Iwas lying or anything of the sort, .the point under discussion which was discussed with YOU was the term cadaver scent contaminant...I actually said he said it in two parts of the report but included blood in another part, not exactly sure what your problem really is here, big fail??
I suggest you read back and sort your cells out

I SAID also Grime didn't say how the cadaver scent contaminant ended up there....stroll on... you have no argument against my posts at all, and of course you will prove where I was dishonest
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 11:57:39 PM by mercury »

Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4532 on: August 29, 2015, 11:54:22 PM »
Bumping this again, give us a clue Pegasus

I would think Pegasus would say:- Why would someone put a cadaver in a wardrobe with a pile of laundry then take it out again?
I'm sure he/she will correct me if I have misinterpreted that.

Offline Benice

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4533 on: August 29, 2015, 11:55:40 PM »
It wasn't his job to do so, just as it wasn!t his job to interview the Mccanns or "meet them"

Just another stick to beat Amaral with

If you believe it wasn't his job to fully inform himself of the abilities of the sniffer dogs before making claims about them in order to implicate the McCanns,  then I can only assume that your expectations of the Lead Investigator are no different to those of reporters writing sensational articles about the case in order to sell papers.    Personally I would expect far more from a professional police officer.   

(off to bed now - goodnight Mercury)


The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4534 on: August 29, 2015, 11:58:35 PM »
If you believe it wasn't his job to fully inform himself of the abilities of the sniffer dogs before making claims about them in order to implicate the McCanns,  then I can only assume that your expectations of the Lead Investigator are no different to those of reporters writing sensational articles about the case in order to sell papers.    Personally I would expect far more from a professional police officer.   

(off to bed now - goodnight Mercury)

he was a SIO he didn't do the legwork, goodnight

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4535 on: August 30, 2015, 12:01:42 AM »
I would think Pegasus would say:- Why would someone put a cadaver in a wardrobe with a pile of laundry then take it out again?
I'm sure he/she will correct me if I have misinterpreted that.

Err no I don't think that is what Pegasus was referring to, if you hid a cadaver in a wardrobe you would take it out again asap before police got there...what????

logging off, catch up tomorrow
!



Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4536 on: August 30, 2015, 12:14:51 AM »
Err no I don't think that is what Pegasus was referring to, if you hid a cadaver in a wardrobe you would take it out again asap before police got there...what????

logging off, catch up tomorrow
!

Who would have hidden the cadaver, which according to Amaral was behind the sofa, in the wardrobe - and when & why would they have done that?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4537 on: August 30, 2015, 01:01:06 AM »
I would think Pegasus would say:- Why would someone put a cadaver in a wardrobe with a pile of laundry then take it out again?
I'm sure he/she will correct me if I have misinterpreted that.

Is that a trick question? You can hide something in a wardrobe if you are meant to be somewhere else.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4538 on: August 30, 2015, 01:05:46 AM »
Is that a trick question? You can hide something in a wardrobe if you are meant to be somewhere else.

When does Amaral state that Madeleine died?

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4539 on: August 30, 2015, 01:20:09 AM »
When does Amaral state that Madeleine died?
 

His theory in the documentary was that Maddy heard her father's voice outside and when trying to look though the window fell from the sofa and died. Kate later discovered the body and hid it in the wardrobe. In my theory, Maddy was moved out of the apartment before 9:30 but where was she at that time - in bed, behind the sofa or hiding in the wardrobe?
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 01:29:04 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4540 on: August 30, 2015, 01:33:56 AM »
 

His theory in the documentary was that Maddy heard her father's voice outside and when trying to look though the window fell from the sofa and died. Kate later discovered the body and hid it in the wardrobe which I don't agree with. Maddy was moved out of the apartment before 9:30 in my theory but where was she when moved out - in bed, behind the sofa or hiding in the wardrobe?

If she was moved before 9.30, why would her cadaver have been placed in the wardrobe? Then, how do you explain the presence of the cadaver scent behind the sofa?

Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4541 on: August 30, 2015, 02:02:23 AM »
From Amaral's perspective - why would Kate move a body from behind a sofa into a wardrobe at 10pm where it would be found by searchers?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4542 on: August 30, 2015, 08:17:29 AM »
 

His theory in the documentary was that Maddy heard her father's voice outside and when trying to look though the window fell from the sofa and died. Kate later discovered the body and hid it in the wardrobe. In my theory, Maddy was moved out of the apartment before 9:30 but where was she at that time - in bed, behind the sofa or hiding in the wardrobe?

Amaral must be absolutely stupid to think that Maddie could fall off the sofa  and die....

Offline Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4543 on: August 30, 2015, 08:25:54 AM »

And how did The Death Scent accumulate?  Can someone answer that for me?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #4544 on: August 30, 2015, 08:28:32 AM »
If she was moved before 9.30, why would her cadaver have been placed in the wardrobe? Then, how do you explain the presence of the cadaver scent behind the sofa?

You put it in the wardrobe until it's dark. Who says there was cadaver scent behind the sofa? Blood was detected by Keela, so Eddie could have been alerting to blood there also.
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