Amaral and the dogs

[Alfred R Jones]

It has certainly raised many questions though some of which even Gerry McCann felt he had to answer.

If you'd been accused of concealing a body and a cadaver dog alerted to your property you'd just accept it would you? Not attempt to explain it as possibly having another cause?

[Mr Gray]

Another fact which has always bothered me is why Eddie only alerted in 5a and not the other properties?

because grime encouraged him to by repeatedly calling him back

[Anna]

Another fact which has always bothered me is why Eddie only alerted in 5a and not the other properties?

5A:

31st jul 2007
From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road.
From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.

5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (5 mins)

5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins) second apartment for mccanns

Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):

9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.(11 mins

‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

McCanns apartment search- 50 mins and garden11mins= 61mins
Other apartments 3x3 mins  1X5 mins maximum
‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

This timing can be seen here
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

ETA
correction missed
In apartment 5A:
* between 20h16 (typing error in the report shows 21h16) and 20h30 the "cadaver" dog alerted:
- at 20h20 in the area of the wardrobe of the main bedroom
- at 20h22 in the lounge, specifically behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.

* between 20h47 and 21.20 the "blood" dog alerted:
- at 21h10 in the lounge, specifically on the floor behind the sofa next to the wondow that overlooks the street.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

[stephen25000]

5A:

31st jul 2007
From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road.
From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.

5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (5 mins)

5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins) second apartment for mccanns

Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):

9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.(11 mins

‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

McCanns apartment search- 50 mins and garden11mins= 61mins
Other apartments 3x3 mins  1X5 mins maximum
‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

This timing can be seen here
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

I would say that we can discuss this thread until the cows come home and it won't make a scrap of difference, as opinions are firmly entrenched.

[Mr Gray]

I'm happy to listen and consider any evidence...but the dog's alerts are totally meaningless...happy for someone to point out where I an wrong

[pegasus]

because grime encouraged him to by repeatedly calling him back

The handler cued Eddie to the wicker chair from the bedroom about 50 times.
But Eddie did not alert to it.
Cueing and calling back does not cause alerts Dave.

[Mr Gray]

The handler cued Eddie to the wicker chair from the bedroom about 50 times.
But Eddie did not alert to it.
Cueing and calling back does not cause alerts Dave.

none of us know what caused the alerts...even grime...that's about it...what we do know is they have no evidential reliability

[Brietta]

Another fact which has always bothered me is why Eddie only alerted in 5a and not the other properties?

Don't know if chemicals were used in the initial searches for blood.  Can't find anything in the forensic reports about the 'Northern European male blood samples' allegedly found.

There is also little in the literature about what exactly the inhibiting factor is, to which Mark Harrison referred ... although I think it destroys the scent of everything for the dogs ... which is probably why it is only used after the dogs have been through an area or in places too difficult for the dogs to access.

      "An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used."   
           http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

We've seen the photographs of the fingerprint powder all over the place, and it is mentioned in the forensic report.

Just my opinion, because I can't find information on the effects of luminol apart from the fact it does have an effect on the dogs ~ use of such chemicals and powders may well have left a 'crime scene smell' which the dog recognised and thus was primed to give a learned response in the area of what its nose was telling it there usually was one.

[pegasus]

none of us know what caused the alerts...even grime...that's about it...what we do know is they have no evidential reliability

If I was a parent desperate to find what happened to my child I would take Eddie's alerts in the apartment very seriously and be discussing all the scenarios which that intelligence indicates.
Not just dismissing them with a wave and a "no evidential value".
This is not a court case Dave, this is about finding closure for the innocent relatives.

[Mr Gray]

Don't know if chemicals were used in the initial searches for blood.  Can't find anything in the forensic reports about the 'Northern European male blood samples' allegedly found.

There is also little in the literature about what exactly the inhibiting factor is, to which Mark Harrison referred ... although I think it destroys the scent of everything for the dogs ... which is probably why it is only used after the dogs have been through an area or in places too difficult for the dogs to access.

      "An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used."   
           http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

We've seen the photographs of the fingerprint powder all over the place, and it is mentioned in the forensic report.

Just my opinion, because I can't find information on the effects of luminol apart from the fact it does have an effect on the dogs ~ use of such chemicals and powders may well have left a 'crime scene smell' which the dog recognised and thus was primed to give a learned response in the area of what its nose was telling it there usually was one.

I think you have just found another important piece of the jig saw,,,well done

[Mr Gray]

If I was a parent desperate to find what happened to my child I would take Eddie's alerts in the apartment very seriously and be discussing all the scenarios which that intelligence indicates.
Not just dismissing them with a wave and a "no evidential value".
This is not a court case Dave, this is about finding closure for the innocent relatives.

it is Grime who has dismissed them...and rightly so

[Brietta]

5A:

31st jul 2007
From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road.
From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.

5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (5 mins)

5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins) second apartment for mccanns

Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):

9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.(11 mins

‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

McCanns apartment search- 50 mins and garden11mins= 61mins
Other apartments 3x3 mins  1X5 mins maximum
‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

This timing can be seen here
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

ETA
correction missed
In apartment 5A:
* between 20h16 (typing error in the report shows 21h16) and 20h30 the "cadaver" dog alerted:
- at 20h20 in the area of the wardrobe of the main bedroom
- at 20h22 in the lounge, specifically behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.

* between 20h47 and 21.20 the "blood" dog alerted:
- at 21h10 in the lounge, specifically on the floor behind the sofa next to the wondow that overlooks the street.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

Apparently apartment 5A was given a disproportionate amount of time in relation to other apartments visited.

If the apartment had been given the same amount of time as any of the others ... or if any or all of the others had been given the same amount of time as that given to 5A ... there may have been different responses recorded as demonstrably people do have innocent bleeds. 
That could not have been unique to 5A.  At one time or another blood must have been shed in the other apartments.

[Brietta]

If I was a parent desperate to find what happened to my child I would take Eddie's alerts in the apartment very seriously and be discussing all the scenarios which that intelligence indicates.
Not just dismissing them with a wave and a "no evidential value".
This is not a court case Dave, this is about finding closure for the innocent relatives.

Don't you think the parents will have already agonised over just that, Pegasus?  The anguish they must have felt when Tito and Muzzy were searching the mound must have been unbearable.
Their questioning and any feelings they may have expressed will have been done privately and discretely.

[pegasus]

Don't know if chemicals were used in the initial searches for blood.  Can't find anything in the forensic reports about the 'Northern European male blood samples' allegedly found.

There is also little in the literature about what exactly the inhibiting factor is, to which Mark Harrison referred ... although I think it destroys the scent of everything for the dogs ... which is probably why it is only used after the dogs have been through an area or in places too difficult for the dogs to access.

      "An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used."   
           http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

We've seen the photographs of the fingerprint powder all over the place, and it is mentioned in the forensic report.

Just my opinion, because I can't find information on the effects of luminol apart from the fact it does have an effect on the dogs ~ use of such chemicals and powders may well have left a 'crime scene smell' which the dog recognised and thus was primed to give a learned response in the area of what its nose was telling it there usually was one.

Luminol etc also is not a good idea if DNA analysis of samples is going to be done.
This is why, in early Aug 2007, no chemicals were used by PJ forensics to locate samples on the lounge floor and wall behind the sofa, just special lights.

[ferryman]

Apparently apartment 5A was given a disproportionate amount of time in relation to other apartments visited.

If the apartment had been given the same amount of time as any of the others ... or if any or all of the others had been given the same amount of time as that given to 5A ... there may have been different responses recorded as demonstrably people do have innocent bleeds. 
That could not have been unique to 5A.  At one time or another blood must have been shed in the other apartments.

14 minutes in total for all the other apartments, and just short of an hour for apartment 5a

Doubtless that was the dogs' fault ....