Did the PJ conduct a proper search for evidence at OC?

[John]

No and no ! Sorry, Angelo... 


What do you mean no and no??

What I have stated is known fact.  A carried child and especially one bundled up in someone's arms leaves no discernible trace on the ground.  Such a scenario only generates 'airborne' scent which will blow away almost immediately on a windy night.

To repeat, the GNR were initially searching for a straying child, not an abducted one.

The GNR would first and foremost have sent the dogs in to search for a child who might have strayed and even fallen down a manhole.  We know this happened since the culverts and outfall drains were all checked the following day.  They weren't searching for an abducted child.  Such things never happened in Praia da Luz so it was the least likely scenario.

My own view on the search dogs is that they were excellent and did what was asked of them.  They successfully found Madeleine's scent but that related merely to her goings and comings each day with her parents.

[AnneGuedes]

No and no ! Sorry, Angelo... 


What do you mean no and no??

What I have stated is known fact.  A carried child and especially one bundled up in someone's arms leaves no discernible trace on the ground.  Such a scenario only generates 'airborne' scent which will blow away almost immediately on a windy night.

To repeat, the GNR were initially searching for a straying child, not an abducted one.

First no : the dogs didn't follow the trail "from the patio".
Second no : the VOCs that compose your scent signature fall from all you body on the ground. The fact you're walking doesn't change that, except it you're barefoot, the best for the dogs.

[AnneGuedes]

The GNR would first and foremost have sent the dogs in to search for a child who might have strayed and even fallen down a manhole.  We know this happened since the culverts and outfall drains were all checked the following day.  They weren't searching for an abducted child.

Those dogs were rescue ones, they're trained to pick up any human living scent. Time helps them (whereas time is fatal for trailer dogs), because of the intensity of scent produced by an immobilized person.

[John]

The interesting thing about the GNR dogs though is that no reference is made to the scent around the patio area.  I wonder did the two dog handlers discount this area completely on the basis that Kate and the children used it regularly and as a consequence Madeleine's scent would be all over it?  In reality, there wasn't much point in them searching an area where Madeleine was known to have been regularly.  Were the two handlers working on the basis that she walked out the front door?

[Wonderfulspam]

The interesting thing about the GNR dogs though is that no reference is made to the scent around the patio area.  I wonder did the two dog handlers discount this area completely on the basis that Kate and the children used it regularly and as a consequence Madeleine's scent would be all over it?  In reality, there wasn't much point in them searching an area where Madeleine was known to have been regularly.  Were the two handlers working on the basis that she walked out the front door?

@22.50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[John]

@22.50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

??   relevance WS?

[Redblossom]

Oh that godam awful interview where gerry when asked about blood and cadaver dogs deflects it and says well actually it was at OUR request they were brought in for a more thorough search!  No, he asked for dogs on the night not the cadaver dog three mnths later, the brass neck of the man!


 8-)(--)

[John]

Oh that godam awful interview where gerry when asked about blood and cadaver dogs deflects it and says well actually it was at OUR request they were brought in for a more thorough search!  No, he asked for dogs on the night not the cadaver dog three mnths later, the brass neck of the man!


 8-)(--)

Was it the British police who suggested bringing Martin Grime and his dogs in?  I can't see the PJ suggesting it since they wouldn't have necessarily known about them.

[Wonderfulspam]

??   relevance WS?

Were the two handlers working on the basis that she walked out the front door?

She couldn't get out the back so no need to search there.

"Well the shutter was up and the window was open, I'm not lying about that, and even if they want to say theoretically, 'oh she wandered out the back of the apartment', then they're basically saying a three-year old has opened the long curtains, closed them behind her, opened the patio doors, closed them behind her, opened the gate at the top of the stairs, closed that behind her (GM interjecting: 'with the child lock') and done the same at the bottom... you know it's just not... it's not possible."

[AnneGuedes]

Was it the British police who suggested bringing Martin Grime and his dogs in?  I can't see the PJ suggesting it since they wouldn't have necessarily known about them.

It was Prof Harrison's suggestion concerning specifically Mr Grime. But the UK POs had told to their PT colleagues about the existence of cadaver dogs.

[John]

Were the two handlers working on the basis that she walked out the front door?

She couldn't get out the back so no need to search there.

"Well the shutter was up and the window was open, I'm not lying about that, and even if they want to say theoretically, 'oh she wandered out the back of the apartment', then they're basically saying a three-year old has opened the long curtains, closed them behind her, opened the patio doors, closed them behind her, opened the gate at the top of the stairs, closed that behind her (GM interjecting: 'with the child lock') and done the same at the bottom... you know it's just not... it's not possible."

Thanks WS.  So what she is saying effectively is that Madeleine couldn't have got out the back (patio door) because of the gates?  So the GNR were directed towards the front door?

Thus no scent was detected and more importantly, recorded, between the patio and the street because they never checked it?

[AnneGuedes]

Thanks WS.  So what she is saying effectively is that Madeleine couldn't have got out the back (patio door) because of the gates?  So the GNR were directed towards the front door?

Thus no scent was detected and more importantly, recorded, between the patio and the street because they never checked it?

According to her father, Madeleine had gone out twice through the south door  on that day. In the morning to go to the creche and after lunch to go to the pool.
It might explain why Numi, who went inside of the flat, spent some time by the south door.

[pathfinder73]

The interesting thing about the GNR dogs though is that no reference is made to the scent around the patio area.  I wonder did the two dog handlers discount this area completely on the basis that Kate and the children used it regularly and as a consequence Madeleine's scent would be all over it?  In reality, there wasn't much point in them searching an area where Madeleine was known to have been regularly.  Were the two handlers working on the basis that she walked out the front door?

I would think the dogs found her freshest outdoor scent at the front door so they started from there and not the patio door which indicates to me that Madeleine came in the front way at 5.40 and not the patio way as Gerry claimed - Kate later contradicted him. I don't know if very small kids would be using those dangerous steep steps much at all. Maybe Gerry is playing more games with the dogs but one thing is clear from the book is that they were initially more nervous about the dogs evidence than anything else. But instead of  inquiring more about it in regards to their missing daughter they ridiculed the dogs which says a lot.

@22.50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

24:40 Gerry loves banging on about I can't/couldn't talk about the details because of secrecy laws when he's rattled.

26:50 Gerry is moving, he's not comfortable about the dogs. And Yes it was very suspicious to clean CC.

[Wonderfulspam]

I would think the dogs found her freshest outdoor scent at the front door so they started from there and not the patio door which indicates to me that Madeleine came in the front way at 5.40 and not the patio way as Gerry claimed - Kate later contradicted him. I don't know if very small kids would be using them dangerous steep steps much at all. Maybe Gerry is playing more games with the dogs but one thing is clear from the book is that they were initially more nervous about the dogs evidence than anything else. But instead of  inquiring more about it in regards to their missing daughter they ridiculed the dogs which says a lot.

24:40 Gerry loves banging on about I can't/couldn't talk about the details because of secrecy laws when he's rattled.

26:50 Gerry is moving, he's not comfortable about the dogs. And Yes it was very suspicious to clean CC.

24:40 Gerry loves banging on about I can't/couldn't talk about the details because of secrecy laws when he's rattled.

He had that irritating itch behind the ear again.

[Wonderfulspam]

Thanks WS.  So what she is saying effectively is that Madeleine couldn't have got out the back (patio door) because of the gates?  So the GNR were directed towards the front door?

Thus no scent was detected and more importantly, recorded, between the patio and the street because they never checked it?

Ironically although they may have been directed to the front door , they were still being lead up the garden path.