The confusion over the doors didn't help the investigation?

[John]

You have to realise that the south door isn't a door (in Portuguese a door-window) since you can't open it from both sides. The mechanism to open it isn't as simple as pulling the latch of the door lock.

Patio door and internal locking mechanism.

Simple press-button lock.

[Carana]

For crying out loud.....it is quite clear which door Gerry was referring to when he said he entered using his key because it was locked....the front door/north door/brown wooden door/the door with the big round handle...it so obviously was NOT the patio door which HAS NO KEY to enter with!
No translation errors whatsoever!

I don't think that a translation error is likely, either. However, there could easily have been confusion between a description of the apartment and which door was front or back.

I would find it quite extraordinary if the first witness (just hours after the event) wouldn't have been asked to give a general layout of the flat (but that doesn't appear in the statement, quite possibly because it wasn't verbatim). The easiest thing for both the police officer and the interpreter would be to make a quick sketch (as scribbled notes
 or mentally) so that they could follow what Gerry was saying. If one or the other had already noted that the front door required a key, it really isn't that difficult to get mixed up between front and back. The statement wasn't verbatim.

I can't think of any plausible reason why Gerry would have said that he'd taken the long way round, yet state that he had gone out via the unlocked veranda door (correction: he didn't state which door he'd gone out from in his first statement) and that Matt had gone in and out via the unlocked veranda in the same statement, and Kate (the next witness) only stated going in and out via the same veranda door.

Initial lost-in-understanding seems far more likely to me. In any case, the issue was eventually spotted and cleared up in Gerry's subsequent interview.

[Redblossom]

I don't think that a translation error is likely, either. However, there could easily have been confusion between a description of the apartment and which door was front or back.

I would find it quite extraordinary if the first witness (just hours after the event) wouldn't have been asked to give a general layout of the flat (but that doesn't appear in the statement, quite possibly because it wasn't verbatim). The easiest thing for both the police officer and the interpreter would be to make a quick sketch (as scribbled notes
 or mentally) so that they could follow what Gerry was saying. If one or the other had already noted that the front door required a key, it really isn't that difficult to get mixed up between front and back. The statement wasn't verbatim.

I can't think of any plausible reason why Gerry would have said that he'd taken the long way round, yet state that he had gone out via the unlocked veranda door and that Matt had gone in and out via the unlocked veranda in the same statement, and Kate (the next witness) only stated going in and out via the same veranda door.

Initial lost-in-understanding seems far more likely to me. In any case, the issue was eventually spotted and cleared up in Gerry's subsequent interview.

Spin it any way you want.

I would imagine both police and interpreters know the difference between the two types of doors! and which one is entered using a key and which  one isn't.

[Carana]

Spin it any way you want.

I would imagine both police and interpreters know the difference between the two types of doors! and which one is entered using a key and which  one isn't.

I'm not spinning anything, Red. I find confusion that morning entirely plausible, between a distraught and exhausted dad, an officer who would not necessarily have been familiar with the layout and someone who had been called in at short notice to help interpret.

Would you exclude potential confusion?

[AnneGuedes]

I'm not spinning anything, Red. I find confusion that morning entirely plausible, between a distraught and exhausted dad, an officer who would not necessarily have been familiar with the layout and someone who had been called in at short notice to help interpret.

Would you exclude potential confusion?

The question, the only one, is "why do you include it ?".
You don't admit that two Portuguese speakers, the police officer and the interpreter, designated the south issue as a door-window (signed statement in Portuguese), i.e not a proper door. Curious.
You don't admit that it is a floor length window , the name of it in English being "French window". Curious.
You don't admit that this sort of layout is common in Portugal where the notion of "back door" doesn't exist. Curious.
In big villas and flats, there used to be a "service door", reserved to employees.
Finally you insist that "with his key" could be some "add in translation". 

[AnneGuedes]

Spin it any way you want.

I would imagine both police and interpreters know the difference between the two types of doors! and which one is entered using a key and which  one isn't.

Mr McCann had certainly a reason for saying he entered through the door with his key, a very normal act that any of us does daily.
About the French window being slightly open, after all we just have the McCann word for it (and Mr Oldfield's who exemplarily demonstrated that he had a strange idea of the McCann kids bedroom). If we believe Mrs Payne, this French window had been left open to let Madeleine go out in case she'd wake up and look for her parents.

[AnneGuedes]

I can't think of any plausible reason why Gerry would have said that he'd taken the long way round, yet state that he had gone out via the unlocked veranda door

You don't find plausible that Mr McCann said "he took the long way round, yet stated that he had gone went out via the unlocked veranda door", but he never said this, Carana ! Read :
at about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis
1) Mr McCann says clearly he entered using a key.
2) He's not suggesting he used another issue to get out.
3) You don't mention it, but Mr McCann said clearly that his wife had entered the flat with the key, as well.

[Redblossom]

The question, the only one, is "why do you include it ?".
You don't admit that two Portuguese speakers, the police officer and the interpreter, designated the south issue as a door-window (signed statement in Portuguese), i.e not a proper door. Curious.
You don't admit that it is a floor length window , the name of it in English being "French window". Curious.
You don't admit that this sort of layout is common in Portugal where the notion of "back door" doesn't exist. Curious.
In big villas and flats, there used to be a "service door", reserved to employees.
Finally you insist that "with his key" could be some "add in translation". 

Thanks for answering better than I could
Indeed,  "add  in translation"rather than "lost in translation"here

[Benice]

I'm not spinning anything, Red. I find confusion that morning entirely plausible, between a distraught and exhausted dad, an officer who would not necessarily have been familiar with the layout and someone who had been called in at short notice to help interpret.

Would you exclude potential confusion?

I'm convinced it was as a result of an early misunderstanding about which doors were used - and that misunderstanding carried on throughout  the interview unnoticed at the time.   If it was a deliberate lie by Gerry -then why would he want the PJ to think he taken the long way round?  What did he have to gain by claiming that ?   Not a thing from what I can see.   He'd already said that they had left through the unlocked patio doors - and that's how MO had entered 5a. 

IMO there is no credible reason why GM should purposely walk past a door a mere few feet away  -giving him access  to 5a-  and instead choose to walk up the hill, round the corner, over the car park and back down the path in front of the apartments to achieve the exactly same thing.  i.e. entry into 5A. - especially if he intended to use the bathroom?     

It makes no sense whatsoever for him to do that  - and the fact that the interviewing officer did not ask GM WHY he would do something so inexplicable also convinces me that he wasn't au fait with the layout of 5a or the surrounding area during that very first interview.       If he had been familiar then he would have realised straightaway how strange it would be for Gerry to have done that -  and  he would have asked him for an explanation - and it would have been at that point that the confusion was cleared up.  imo.  But it's clear that he didn't ask GM that glaringly obvious question.

I also think it's possible that when writing up the summary - the officer may have chosen to make reference to ''the key'  of his own volition to clarify in his report which door he  quite genuinely thought GM was referring to at that time.   

All IMHO.



         





 

 




 

[AnneGuedes]

I'm convinced it was as a result of an early misunderstanding about which doors were used - and that misunderstanding carried on throughout  the interview unnoticed at the time.   If it was a deliberate lie by Gerry -then why would he want the PJ to think he taken the long way round?  What did he have to gain by claiming that ?   Not a thing from what I can see.   He'd already said that they had left through the unlocked patio doors - and that's how MO had entered 5a. 

IMO there is no credible reason why GM should purposely walk past a door a mere few feet away  -giving him access  to 5a-  and instead choose to walk up the hill, round the corner, over the car park and back down the path in front of the apartments to achieve the exactly same thing.  i.e. entry into 5A. - especially if he intended to use the bathroom?     

It makes no sense whatsoever for him to do that  - and the fact that the interviewing officer did not ask GM WHY he would do something so inexplicable also convinces me that he wasn't au fait with the layout of 5a or the surrounding area during that very first interview.       If he had been familiar then he would have realised straightaway how strange it would be for Gerry to have done that -  and  he would have asked him for an explanation - and it would have been at that point that the confusion was cleared up.  imo.  But it's clear that he didn't ask GM that glaringly obvious question.

I also think it's possible that when writing up the summary - the officer may have chosen to make reference to ''the key'  of his own volition to clarify in his report which door he  quite genuinely thought GM was referring to at that time.   

All IMHO.

Trying to spread a collective belief ? Using the pretext that it "made no sense" to go the long way when the short one is available ?
But what if Mr McCann didn't lie when he said he entered through the door with his key, but didn't say the truth about Mr Oldfield (who wasn't given any key) entering through the open French window?
Pretending that Mr McCann's incoherences betray the mistakes of the PJ and the interpreter sounds very much like a conspiracy theory..

[Benice]

Trying to spread a collective belief ? Using the pretext that it "made no sense" to go the long way when the short one is available ?
But what if Mr McCann didn't lie when he said he entered through the door with his key, but didn't say the truth about Mr Oldfield (who wasn't given any key) entering through the open French window?
Pretending that Mr McCann's incoherences betray the mistakes of the PJ and the interpreter sounds very much like a conspiracy theory..

So why do you think GM lied about which door he used?    What did he have to gain by trying to convince the PJ that he used the front door?   What was his motive for doing that?

It's not a sin for anyone to make mistakes.   No-one is perfect -  even PJ officers and interpretors.

[Redblossom]

I'm convinced it was as a result of an early misunderstanding about which doors were used - and that misunderstanding carried on throughout  the interview unnoticed at the time.   If it was a deliberate lie by Gerry -then why would he want the PJ to think he taken the long way round?  What did he have to gain by claiming that ?   Not a thing from what I can see.   He'd already said that they had left through the unlocked patio doors - and that's how MO had entered 5a. 

IMO there is no credible reason why GM should purposely walk past a door a mere few feet away  -giving him access  to 5a-  and instead choose to walk up the hill, round the corner, over the car park and back down the path in front of the apartments to achieve the exactly same thing.  i.e. entry into 5A. - especially if he intended to use the bathroom?     

It makes no sense whatsoever for him to do that  - and the fact that the interviewing officer did not ask GM WHY he would do something so inexplicable also convinces me that he wasn't au fait with the layout of 5a or the surrounding area during that very first interview.       If he had been familiar then he would have realised straightaway how strange it would be for Gerry to have done that -  and  he would have asked him for an explanation - and it would have been at that point that the confusion was cleared up.  imo.  But it's clear that he didn't ask GM that glaringly obvious question.

I also think it's possible that when writing up the summary - the officer may have chosen to make reference to ''the key'  of his own volition to clarify in his report which door he  quite genuinely thought GM was referring to at that time.   

All IMHO.

 

No, this is his first statement, he never said in that he left through the patio doors!

As for mentioning Matt using the patio door, how do you know something didnt click in his mind midstream the statement and say that! It was after all a lengthy process, and he had time to think out implications if he wanted to add in that the patio door was open after all. GMs mind as we all know is faster than his mouth can keep up with.


As for the PJ officer doing a summary and adding use of a key, thats ridiculous, no PJ officer did any summary, witnesses words were translated by translators, recorded, read back to the witnesses in English and then signed. Why on earth would any police officer add anythng just because he thought that is probably what someone meant! listen to yourself. Its barrel scraping time again. lets face it you have no idea whatsoever what is the truth and why GM or anyone else would say what they did say. But do carry on the apologising and blame shifting.

All IMO of course

[AnneGuedes]

So why do you think GM lied about which door he used?    What did he have to gain by trying to convince the PJ that he used the front door?   What was his motive for doing that?

It's not a sin for anyone to make mistakes.   No-one is perfect -  even PJ officers and interpretors.

I don't think he lied, Benice, in his first statement, about the door he used.
I think the Oldfield only occurred for the sake of regular checks.
Mr McCann was exhausted, physically and emotionally, yes, hence the incoherence.
The golden and universal rule is that the first statement has more chances to be close to reality than any of the following ones.

[pegasus]

pls dont say north window, some will say well, unless you draw a birds eye picture for the police, no one can know what youre talking about
 

"Front bedroom" or "Back bedroom" are ambiguous as they depend on fluid opinions of what front and back mean.

"Child bedroom"  or "Adult bedroom" are ambiguous because some tourists may use the north bedroom for adults and the south bedroom for children, the bedrooms are not labelled.

In this particular apartment, "North bedroom" and "South bedroom" are the  accurate method to describe which bedroom unambiguously.

[AnneGuedes]

"Front bedroom" or "Back bedroom" are ambiguous as they depend on fluid opinions of what front and back mean.

"Child bedroom"  or "Adult bedroom" are ambiguous because some tourists may use the north bedroom for adults and the south bedroom for children, the bedrooms are not labelled.

In this particular apartment, "North bedroom" and "South bedroom" are the  accurate method to describe which bedroom unambiguously.

I agree with that. Nothing predisposes the south bedroom to be the parents' one, actually it's strange they didn't chose that one to be able to hear better an eventual crying.