UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧

UK and North American politics. => A look at British politics in the light of the decision to leave the EU. => Topic started by: Angelo222 on July 20, 2016, 05:20:32 PM

Title: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on July 20, 2016, 05:20:32 PM
As predicted, Tory MP's heading off to the four corners of the world to do trade deals...Wonderful stuff!!

Well played Theresa   8@??)(   Onwards and upwards!!

58
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 05:42:56 PM
As predicted, Tory MP's heading off to the four corners of the world to do trade deals...Wonderful stuff!!

Well played Theresa   8@??)(   Onwards and upwards!!

Trade deals can't be excised until we leave the EU, and that has to be ratified by a majority of the countries in the EU.  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 05:46:56 PM
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm22R7cXEAA7FVL.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on July 20, 2016, 05:52:44 PM
Trade deals can't be excised until we leave the EU, and that has to be ratified by a majority of the countries in the EU.  ?{)(**

Which part of pre negotiation don't you comprehend?  As for the Pound, isn't it brilliant for our manufacturers and that was even before the vote!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/678539/Brexit-boost-exports-British-EU-vote-referndum
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 05:55:10 PM
Which part of pre negotiation don't you comprehend?  As for the Pound, isn't it brilliant for our manufacturers?

I understand pre-negotiation also means everything is up in the air until we leave.

Which UK owned manufacturers are you referring to Angelo ?

I am all ears on that one. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on July 20, 2016, 05:58:06 PM
 8(*(b
I understand pre-negotiation also means everything is up in the air until we leave.

Which UK owned manufacturers are you referring to Angelo ?

I am all ears on that one. 8((()*/

The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2015. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.
Machines, engines, pumps: US$63.9 billion (13.9% of total exports)
Gems, precious metals: $53 billion (11.5%)
Vehicles: $50.7 billion (11%)
Pharmaceuticals: $36 billion (7.8%)
Oil: $33.2 billion (7.2%)
Electronic equipment: $29 billion (6.3%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $18.9 billion (4.1%)
Medical, technical equipment: $18.4 billion (4%)
Organic chemicals: $14 billion (3%)
Plastics: $11.8 billion (2.6%)
Aircraft and spacecraft were the fastest-growing among the top 10 export categories, up 18.2% for the 5-year period starting in 2011.
In second place for improving export sales vehicles which were up 10.2% led by cars and work trucks.
UK pharmaceuticals posted the third-fastest gain in value at 8.4%.

2016 figures should well impress!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 06:01:58 PM
The following export product groups represent the highest dollar value in UK global shipments during 2015. Also shown is the percentage share each export category represents in terms of overall exports from United Kingdom.
Machines, engines, pumps: US$63.9 billion (13.9% of total exports)
Gems, precious metals: $53 billion (11.5%)
Vehicles: $50.7 billion (11%)
Pharmaceuticals: $36 billion (7.8%)
Oil: $33.2 billion (7.2%)
Electronic equipment: $29 billion (6.3%)
Aircraft, spacecraft: $18.9 billion (4.1%)
Medical, technical equipment: $18.4 billion (4%)
Organic chemicals: $14 billion (3%)
Plastics: $11.8 billion (2.6%)
Aircraft and spacecraft were the fastest-growing among the top 10 export categories, up 18.2% for the 5-year period starting in 2011.
In second place for improving export sales vehicles which were up 10.2% led by cars and work trucks.
UK pharmaceuticals posted the third-fastest gain in value at 8.4%.

2016 figures should well impress!!

No which of these companies are UK owned ?

Likewise, how many will re-locate  ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on July 20, 2016, 06:05:23 PM
No which of these companies are UK owned ?

Likewise, how many will re-locate  ?

I suggest you try Google.  UK companies are so sought after, just look at ARM Holdings.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 06:13:42 PM
I suggest you try Google.  UK companies are so sought after, just look at ARM Holdings.

Which UK owned companies ?

Indeed , now own by the Japanese, which is where the profits will go to.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on July 20, 2016, 07:21:21 PM
As predicted, Tory MP's heading off to the four corners of the world to do trade deals...Wonderful stuff!!

Well played Theresa   8@??)(   Onwards and upwards!!

More or less predictable.  Once the election was out of the way and the new Executive was formed it was down to business and BrExit was top of the agenda.  I take back what I previously said about Theresa, she has certainly started with an ALL GUNS BLAZING approach!  It seems that most commentators agree, she was unwilling to show this side while under the control of Cameron.  Could Theresa be the STEEL LADY?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 20, 2016, 07:45:44 PM
More or less predictable.  Once the election was out of the way and the new Executive was formed it was down to business and BrExit was top of the agenda.  I take back what I previously said about Theresa, she has certainly started with an ALL GUNS BLAZING approach!  It seems that most commentators agree, she was unwilling to show this side while under the control of Cameron.  Could Theresa be the STEEL LADY?

All deals in the wind and subject to the conditions of leaving the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on July 20, 2016, 08:15:30 PM
All deals in the wind and subject to the conditions of leaving the EU.

Absolutely, all things are interdependent.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 20, 2016, 09:20:52 PM
I understand pre-negotiation also means everything is up in the air until we leave.

Which UK owned manufacturers are you referring to Angelo ?

I am all ears on that one. 8((()*/
Kelvin Diesels, Weir Pumps (oops they are both Scottish so may not count in the future). TVR and Morgan Automobiles. Astra Zeneca Pharma. well the half of it that isn't Scandawegian. Even a large chunk of "our" gas storage systems are owned by AyDayEff. Perkins Diesels ; belay that they are owned by Caterpillar..... &%+((£.
JCB hooray. GEA err sorry German.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: sadie on July 21, 2016, 02:25:46 AM
Kelvin Diesels, Weir Pumps (oops they are both Scottish so may not count in the future). TVR and Morgan Automobiles. Astra Zeneca Pharma. well the half of it that isn't Scandawegian. Even a large chunk of "our" gas storage systems are owned by AyDayEff. Perkins Diesels ; belay that they are owned by Caterpillar..... &%+((£.
JCB hooray. GEA err sorry German.

WE used to have a thriving British industry ... but it has almost all gone

Without this Industry, how are we going to survive?

Morgan and TVR and JCB, although all quality industries are not going to keep us afloat; they are too small.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 21, 2016, 03:02:57 PM
WE used to have a thriving British industry ... but it has almost all gone

Without this Industry, how are we going to survive?

Morgan and TVR and JCB, although all quality industries are not going to keep us afloat; they are too small.

1. Rumour has it everyone wants to start a plant in UK now because the pound is down ergo so will be UK unit labour rates......sweat shops alive and well in a little island off the north Europe coast.
2. Import like we do now.
3.I don't think JCB would see itself as a small company with a turnover of two and a half billion.

Quite what Nissan, Honda, Toyota and VW will make of it all remains to be seen. I suppose VW will stay here making Bentleys and BMW will keep the Mini and Rolls Royce here. ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: sadie on July 22, 2016, 12:58:18 AM
1. Rumour has it everyone wants to start a plant in UK now because the pound is down ergo so will be UK unit labour rates......sweat shops alive and well in a little island off the north Europe coast.
2. Import like we do now.
3.I don't think JCB would see itself as a small company with a turnover of two and a half billion.

Quite what Nissan, Honda, Toyota and VW will make of it all remains to be seen. I suppose VW will stay here making Bentleys and BMW will keep the Mini and Rolls Royce here. ?
With people fighting for jobs and wages very likely down + the low level of the pound, yep, they will be queuing up to use British skills and expertise.  But the big bucks will be landing in the pockets of the overseas owners. 

We, little Englanders, will not see many benefits.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 23, 2016, 12:59:49 PM
With people fighting for jobs and wages very likely down + the low level of the pound, yep, they will be queuing up to use British skills and expertise.  But the big bucks will be landing in the pockets of the overseas owners. 

We, little Englanders, will not see many benefits.


The main British skills and expertise were spreading corruption, cricket and overbearing bureaucracy around the world. Tongue in cheek slightly and picking a fight wherever they go.

The British are good inventors, to a point, who lack the production and marketing skills to make a killing. The Brits are good at, to paraphrase Carl Perkins, "kicking open the door then being stompled in the rush".


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on July 23, 2016, 02:36:53 PM
Theresa has yet again confirmed that she will invoke Article 50 by end of this year despite pressure being put on her by French President Hollande and others to rush it.  Cool, calm and collected Theresa will steer the ship on a true course  8((()*/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 23, 2016, 03:08:55 PM
Theresa has yet again confirmed that she will invoke Article 50 by end of this year despite pressure being put on her by French President Hollande and others to rush it.  Cool, calm and collected Theresa will steer the ship on a true course  8((()*/

I thought she said it would be next year before it is invoked, subject to the court action currently taking place.

Also, how democratic is it for a P.M. unelected by the voters of this country to initiate article 50, which could well need parliamentary approval.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 23, 2016, 07:26:36 PM
I thought she said it would be next year before it is invoked, subject to the court action currently taking place.

Also, how democratic is it for a P.M. unelected by the voters of this country to initiate article 50, which could well need parliamentary approval.

My guess is she has long since worked that one out.............watch this space.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on July 24, 2016, 02:22:02 AM
I thought she said it would be next year before it is invoked, subject to the court action currently taking place.

Also, how democratic is it for a P.M. unelected by the voters of this country to initiate article 50, which could well need parliamentary approval.

Those Court actions have no effect.  It is Parliament which decides the Laws in this country, the Courts merely enforce them.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 24, 2016, 09:34:53 AM
Those Court actions have no effect.  It is Parliament which decides the Laws in this country, the Courts merely enforce them.

Again, are you aware of the nature of the court actions ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on July 24, 2016, 11:33:14 AM
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.

Parliamentary sovereignty and the UK constitution

People often refer to the UK having an 'unwritten constitution' but that's not strictly true. It may not exist in a single text, like in the USA or Germany, but large parts of it are written down, much of it in the laws passed in Parliament - known as statute law.

Therefore, the UK constitution is often described as 'partly written and wholly uncodified'. (Uncodified means that the UK does not have a single, written constitution.)

Developments affecting Parliamentary sovereignty

Over the years, Parliament has passed laws that limit the application of parliamentary sovereignty. These laws reflect political developments both within and outside the UK.

They include:

The devolution of power to bodies like the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.
The Human Rights Act 1998.
The UK's entry to the European Union in 1973.
The decision to establish a UK Supreme Court in 2009, which ends the House of Lords function as the UK's final court of appeal.
These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am unclear from the above as to whether Parliament can or can't change the law in regard to UK & the EU.
Anyone?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on July 24, 2016, 12:31:51 PM
https://www.parliament.uk/about/how/role/sovereignty/

Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution.

Parliamentary sovereignty and the UK constitution

People often refer to the UK having an 'unwritten constitution' but that's not strictly true. It may not exist in a single text, like in the USA or Germany, but large parts of it are written down, much of it in the laws passed in Parliament - known as statute law.

Therefore, the UK constitution is often described as 'partly written and wholly uncodified'. (Uncodified means that the UK does not have a single, written constitution.)

Developments affecting Parliamentary sovereignty

Over the years, Parliament has passed laws that limit the application of parliamentary sovereignty. These laws reflect political developments both within and outside the UK.

They include:

The devolution of power to bodies like the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly.
The Human Rights Act 1998.
The UK's entry to the European Union in 1973.
The decision to establish a UK Supreme Court in 2009, which ends the House of Lords function as the UK's final court of appeal.
These developments do not fundamentally undermine the principle of parliamentary sovereignty, since, in theory at least, Parliament could repeal any of the laws implementing these changes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am unclear from the above as to whether Parliament can or can't change the law in regard to UK & the EU.
Anyone?

Only Parliament can do so.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on July 24, 2016, 12:49:38 PM
Only Parliament can do so.

Parliament has previously passed Acts which diluted its sovereignty.
Do we know for sure that the devolution of certain powers to Scotland & Wales means that those nations cannot use those powers to successfully challenge Parliament over an Act which will fundamentally alter their own status?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on July 24, 2016, 01:20:15 PM
Only Parliament can do so.

Governments can be challenged in Court John.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 24, 2016, 08:48:58 PM
Governments can be challenged in Court John.

Indeed Stephen, ask any human rights lawyer worth their 1.2 milion pound fees salt, how cruel and wicked our Government is by denying basic human rights to terrorists, convicted rapists,murderers, paedophiles and genocide agitators in there countries, to be deported, for trial in their own country for other crimes they are accused of. Our Government is always challenged on these issues. The rule of law is  If you fancy killing people it's ok...well if it involves being deported,home grown convicted killers just get jailed.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Holly Goodhead on August 04, 2016, 12:58:50 PM
BOE has cut interest rate to an historic low of 0.25%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36976528

What's next?  Negative interest rates?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rush-to-withdraw-savings-as-threat-of-negative-rate-looms-pxzhxmq3n
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2016, 01:13:09 PM
Governments can be challenged in Court John.

Well naturally but when it suits they merely change the law.  Parliament and by extension the government are the supreme authority in this country.  Courts are merely a mechanism and not the panacea or elixir you appear to think they are.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on August 04, 2016, 01:23:11 PM
BOE has cut interest rate to an historic low of 0.25%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36976528

What's next?  Negative interest rates?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rush-to-withdraw-savings-as-threat-of-negative-rate-looms-pxzhxmq3n

Bloody fab... mortgage payers have never had it so good.  Rock on Brexit!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 04, 2016, 01:27:24 PM
Well naturally but when it suits they merely change the law.  Parliament and by extension the government are the supreme authority in this country.  Courts are merely a mechanism and not the panacea or elixir you appear to think they are.

Courts are a back up.

As to Parliaments  *&*%£
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 04, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
Bloody fab... mortgage payers have never had it so good.  Rock on Brexit!

 Not for long.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 04, 2016, 01:41:23 PM
It seems most of Europe want to follow our lead and have their own Referendum.  Unsurprisingly, lame ducks including Croatia, Romania and Portugal prefer to maintain the status quo.  Strangely however, Greece has also seen calls for a Referendum?

(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/26809-111890o.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2016, 01:46:32 PM
It seems most of Europe want to follow our lead and have their own Referendum.

(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/26809-111890o.jpg)

And the goal of a disintegrated Europe will be?

And who stands to profit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 04, 2016, 01:58:09 PM
And the goal of a disintegrated Europe will be?

And who stands to profit?

Disintegrated?   Getting rid of the corrupt, wasteful, toothless giant called the EU will not affect our security one iota.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 04, 2016, 02:05:52 PM
Bloody fab... mortgage payers have never had it so good.  Rock on Brexit!
Are you going to be quite so ebullient when your banks starts charging you for simply depositing money in your current account and using it to pay bills?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 04, 2016, 02:07:09 PM
Disintegrated?   Getting rid of the corrupt, wasteful, toothless giant called the EU will not affect our security one iota.
Whilst at the same time President Trump pulls out of NATO, yes nothing to worry here, move along...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2016, 02:14:32 PM
Disintegrated?   Getting rid of the corrupt, wasteful, toothless giant called the EU will not affect our security one iota.

What makes you think that, John?

What's the solution for high-speed security cooperation if existing agreements have to be renegotiated?

If Ireland and Scotland choose to remain, what practical measures will that entail? Not just for security, but also for commuters and businesses?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2016, 02:17:19 PM
Whilst at the same time President Trump pulls out of NATO, yes nothing to worry here, move along...

That couldn't possibly be in any way related to his bromance with Russian oligarchs, of course...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 05, 2016, 03:10:29 PM
Are you going to be quite so ebullient when your banks starts charging you for simply depositing money in your current account and using it to pay bills?

Just like they used to "in the good old days" ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 05, 2016, 03:18:25 PM
Whilst at the same time President Trump pulls out of NATO, yes nothing to worry here, move along...

The US is NATO or haven't you heard?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 05, 2016, 03:24:59 PM
The US is NATO or haven't you heard?
Haven't I heard what?  I've heard Trump threaten to withdraw protection for NATO countries, remove US soldiers from European soil and demand that Europe spends more to protect themselves, all the while making goo-goo eyes at Putin, what have I missed?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 05, 2016, 03:30:28 PM
What makes you think that, John?

What's the solution for high-speed security cooperation if existing agreements have to be renegotiated?

If Ireland and Scotland choose to remain, what practical measures will that entail? Not just for security, but also for commuters and businesses?

The EU is a toothless entity Carana, it has never managed to end any conflicts, that is usually down to the US/UK alliance. Look at the Crimea recently and its pathetic posturing, how many more regions will Russia simple walk into and adopt?

The UK has never needed the EU to protect us, in fact it is the EU itself which is the danger.  We are very capable of maintaining alliances with each and every country in the EU without that organisation deciding tactics for us.

As for Scotland and N Ireland, the majority of the population did not vote to remain which speaks for itself. Scotland is currently enjoying a bit of a Nationalist revival but 1.5m hardly equates to much in a population of 6 million.  As for N Ireland, the remainers were mostly Nationalist and Republican voters who saw BrExit as something negative in an all Ireland context so no change there then.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 05, 2016, 03:33:26 PM
Haven't I heard what?  I've heard Trump threaten to withdraw protection for NATO countries, remove US soldiers from European soil and demand that Europe spends more to protect themselves, all the while making goo-goo eyes at Putin, what have I missed?

The UK and western Europe is the US' front line of defence just as it was in 1945.  If Europe were to fall into the hands of some anti US rogue State then the US itself would be in great peril.  Work it out for yourself.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 05, 2016, 03:34:28 PM
The EU is a toothless entity Carana, it has never managed to end any conflicts, that is usually down to the US/UK alliance. Look at the Crimea recently and its pathetic posturing, how many more regions will Russia simple walk into and adopt?

The UK has never needed the EU to protect us, in fact it is the EU itself which is the danger.  We are very capable of maintaining alliances with each and every country in the EU without that organisation deciding tactics for us.

As for Scotland and N Ireland, the majority of the population did not vote to remain which speaks for itself. Scotland is currently enjoying a bit of a Nationalist revival but 1.5m hardly equates to much in a population of 6 million.  As for N Ireland, the remainers were mostly Nationalist and Republican voters who saw BrExit as something negative in an all Ireland context so no change there then.
The majority of the UK did not vote to leave, so what point are you making with the above?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 05, 2016, 03:35:56 PM
The UK and western Europe is the US' front line of defence just as it was in 1945.  If Europe were to fall into the hands of some anti US rogue State then the US itself would be in great peril.  Work it out for yourself.
Some rogue state like Russia you mean, fronted by Putin who is currently engaged in a love-in with the Donald?  What would you like me to work out exactly?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 05, 2016, 04:28:09 PM
Haven't I heard what?  I've heard Trump threaten to withdraw protection for NATO countries, remove US soldiers from European soil and demand that Europe spends more to protect themselves, all the while making goo-goo eyes at Putin, what have I missed?

I'm wondering as well. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one finding this situation somewhat scary.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 10, 2016, 04:38:33 PM
The number of foreign tourists arriving in London continues to grow since the pound dropped slightly against all foreign currencies following the Brexit vote.  It's an ill wind that doesn't blow somebody some good!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-28/brexit-vote-sends-tourists-flocking-to-london-to-buy-buy-buy

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifmpqm48im_E/v2/-1x-1.png)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on August 10, 2016, 05:15:29 PM
The number of foreign tourists arriving in London continues to grow since the pound dropped slightly against all foreign currencies following the Brexit vote.  It's an ill wind that doesn't blow somebody some good!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-28/brexit-vote-sends-tourists-flocking-to-london-to-buy-buy-buy

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifmpqm48im_E/v2/-1x-1.png)

Burberry only has 2 production units in the UK, one in Castleford producing raincoats & a small facility in Keighley. Of its 500 worldwide stores, only 23 are in the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burberry
Extra sales in the UK are just less sales in the purchasers' own countries of residence.

I wonder where the company pays their UK tax liability?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/pricewaterhousecoopers-condemned-for-giving-misleading-evidence-to-parliament-and-promoting-tax-10027344.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 13, 2016, 11:02:55 AM
Will this affect prices in Poundland? Will I get more or less for my money in these stores?

TM needs to surround herself with the right people and not 'politicians' or fact cat Unions- or religious leaders who want to 'pray for us'. She needs to seek out talent based on sound evidence, and experience of starting and running a successful company, which has an ethical and moral attitude to workforce.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2016, 09:46:03 PM
Will this affect prices in Poundland? Will I get more or less for my money in these stores?

TM needs to surround herself with the right people and not 'politicians' or fact cat Unions- or religious leaders who want to 'pray for us'. She needs to seek out talent based on sound evidence, and experience of starting and running a successful company, which has an ethical and moral attitude to workforce.

Like Sports Direct  8)-)))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on August 13, 2016, 10:52:12 PM
The Sunday TImes is reporting that Brexit will be delayed until the end of 2019 (that's if it ever happens at all!)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2016, 11:11:24 PM
Will this affect prices in Poundland? Will I get more or less for my money in these stores?

TM needs to surround herself with the right people and not 'politicians' or fact cat Unions- or religious leaders who want to 'pray for us'. She needs to seek out talent based on sound evidence, and experience of starting and running a successful company, which has an ethical and moral attitude to workforce.

poundland?........have you tried the 99p shop....it's slightly better value
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: puglove on August 13, 2016, 11:32:03 PM
poundland?........have you tried the 99p shop....it's slightly better value

davel!! You're back from your "gardening leave"!! Ho ho!!

Is poundland where you buy your pants and Crocs?     8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2016, 05:41:31 PM
@)(++(*    they never stop trying!

Well that is true of the brexit supporters. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 23, 2016, 07:54:08 PM
poundland?........have you tried the 99p shop....it's slightly better value

Why Davel, I have my standards, I always got for quality not price, hence why poundland is the very jobby for me. 8**8:/:

Little nic nic ( chief fish Sturgeon) Scottish dictator extraordinaire, is doing every thing, in her dictatorship castle to stop the nasty engerlish from taking us out of the EU, WELL how very,very dare they... Her education policy , and education ( sN.....s) has let her down by not providing actual figures of who wanted to go and who wanted to stay just a bland percent of a figure  which did not reflect the (will of the people) at all. Talk about making it up!  what she and many others don't get is the Scottish people,  nay the MAJORITY of the Scottish people did not want to leave the UK, So as the UK voted to leave she has no real case to complain, seems she doesn't like the Scottish people doing things like erm.. voting. So what her new plan  is  is to have another Referendum to ask the Scottish people to leave the UK but to stay in the EU.... Erm scuse me Mrs English Prime minister can we use your air space to fly to the EU countries?   what a corker she is!..an you renew my visa for Cornwall?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 31, 2016, 05:10:45 PM
Theresa May is being very clear on Brexit;

"We must be clear that we are going to make a success of it - that means no second referendum, no attempts to sort of stay in the EU by the back door. That we are actually going to deliver on it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37219143
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 31, 2016, 06:12:22 PM
Theresa May is being very clear on Brexit;

"We must be clear that we are going to make a success of it - that means no second referendum, no attempts to sort of stay in the EU by the back door. That we are actually going to deliver on it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37219143

Deliver what exactly ?

A rose by any other name...........................
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 31, 2016, 07:27:57 PM
Theresa May is being very clear on Brexit;

"We must be clear that we are going to make a success of it - that means no second referendum, no attempts to sort of stay in the EU by the back door. That we are actually going to deliver on it."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37219143

She right on the ball and will make a success of it. The key negotiation will be on immigration versus the single market.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on August 31, 2016, 07:34:18 PM
She right on the ball and will make a success of it. The key negotiation will be on immigration versus the single market.

Don't count your chickens yet.

By the way, what experience does May have in this area of politics ?

Try looking up 'mishcon de reya'.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 01, 2016, 12:33:36 PM
The number of foreign tourists arriving in London continues to grow since the pound dropped slightly against all foreign currencies following the Brexit vote.  It's an ill wind that doesn't blow somebody some good!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-28/brexit-vote-sends-tourists-flocking-to-london-to-buy-buy-buy

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifmpqm48im_E/v2/-1x-1.png)


Why are you posting a graph showing blue lines that date back to 2015?

Obviously any country with a weak currency will attract tourists and temporarily boost exports.

I'm not sure that I understand what you find positive beyond the short-term.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 01, 2016, 12:40:27 PM
She right on the ball and will make a success of it. The key negotiation will be on immigration versus the single market.


That is a vast issue. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2016, 03:51:06 PM
Don't count your chickens yet.

By the way, what experience does May have in this area of politics ?

Try looking up 'mishcon de reya'.

I believe Prime Ministers, like CEO's are able to delegate. You tell the experts what you want to achieve and they come back with a plan for your approval.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2016, 04:44:27 PM
I believe Prime Ministers, like CEO's are able to delegate. You tell the experts what you want to achieve and they come back with a plan for your approval.

You mean like Jeremy Hunt's success with the dispute with the Junior Doctors.  8)-)))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 01, 2016, 05:11:01 PM
Don't count your chickens yet.

By the way, what experience does May have in this area of politics ?

Try looking up 'mishcon de reya'.

Why with all the negativity?  As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!


Exporters have never had it so good!

UK export orders reached a two-year high in August after goods became cheaper for overseas buyers thanks to the slump in the value of the pound, new figures show.

The survey from the CBI will add to optimism about the resilience of the economy after the vote to leave the European Union, following better than expected retail sales and jobs figures last week.

A poll of 505 firms by the CBI found 21% said total export orders were above normal compared to 27% saying they were below normal - giving a balance of -6%.

The export reading was the best since August 2014 for the beleaguered manufacturing sector which has been struggling to recover since the recession, despite the upturn in the wider economy.

It comes after the pound slumped to 31-year lows in the wake of the Brexit vote on 23 June.

http://news.sky.com/story/slump-in-sterling-boosts-uk-export-orders-10548542
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2016, 05:21:21 PM
You mean like Jeremy Hunt's success with the dispute with the Junior Doctors.  8)-)))

Quite. He gets the blame not the PM.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2016, 06:12:46 PM
Why with all the negativity?  As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!


Exporters have never had it so good!

UK export orders reached a two-year high in August after goods became cheaper for overseas buyers thanks to the slump in the value of the pound, new figures show.

The survey from the CBI will add to optimism about the resilience of the economy after the vote to leave the European Union, following better than expected retail sales and jobs figures last week.

A poll of 505 firms by the CBI found 21% said total export orders were above normal compared to 27% saying they were below normal - giving a balance of -6%.

The export reading was the best since August 2014 for the beleaguered manufacturing sector which has been struggling to recover since the recession, despite the upturn in the wider economy.

It comes after the pound slumped to 31-year lows in the wake of the Brexit vote on 23 June.

http://news.sky.com/story/slump-in-sterling-boosts-uk-export-orders-10548542

Brexit has not started. 8)--))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 01, 2016, 08:08:38 PM
Why with all the negativity?  As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!


Exporters have never had it so good!

UK export orders reached a two-year high in August after goods became cheaper for overseas buyers thanks to the slump in the value of the pound, new figures show.

The survey from the CBI will add to optimism about the resilience of the economy after the vote to leave the European Union, following better than expected retail sales and jobs figures last week.

A poll of 505 firms by the CBI found 21% said total export orders were above normal compared to 27% saying they were below normal - giving a balance of -6%.

The export reading was the best since August 2014 for the beleaguered manufacturing sector which has been struggling to recover since the recession, despite the upturn in the wider economy.

It comes after the pound slumped to 31-year lows in the wake of the Brexit vote on 23 June.

http://news.sky.com/story/slump-in-sterling-boosts-uk-export-orders-10548542

Do we know if these are "boneyfied" UK manufacturing companies or if the lions share is taken up by German,American, Chinese and Japanese companies with manufacturing plant here?

I guess on the genewine front JCB figure in it somewhere but who else?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on September 01, 2016, 08:41:02 PM
Why with all the negativity?  As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!


Exporters have never had it so good!

UK export orders reached a two-year high in August after goods became cheaper for overseas buyers thanks to the slump in the value of the pound, new figures show.

The survey from the CBI will add to optimism about the resilience of the economy after the vote to leave the European Union, following better than expected retail sales and jobs figures last week.

A poll of 505 firms by the CBI found 21% said total export orders were above normal compared to 27% saying they were below normal - giving a balance of -6%.

The export reading was the best since August 2014 for the beleaguered manufacturing sector which has been struggling to recover since the recession, despite the upturn in the wider economy.

It comes after the pound slumped to 31-year lows in the wake of the Brexit vote on 23 June.

http://news.sky.com/story/slump-in-sterling-boosts-uk-export-orders-10548542

Increased sales, increased overheads, less profit. Sounds like the road to destruction.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 02, 2016, 01:31:43 AM
Brexit has not started. 8)--))

Really?  Best let Theresa May know.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2016, 05:11:40 AM
Really?  Best let Theresa May know.

So John has article 50 been implemented ? 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 02, 2016, 10:39:24 AM
May tells Sturgeon.."We will decide Brexit terms"!

(http://i.imgur.com/Gw3u3L2.png?1)

By Charlie Peat
2nd September 2016

FROZEN OUT: Sturgeon furious as Theresa May tells SNP boss 'WE will decide Brexit terms'

BITTER Nicola Sturgeon has blasted Theresa May after the Prime Minister signalled Scottish ministers will be frozen out of Brexit discussions.

Mrs May told her Cabinet that the Government would “establish the terms” of Brexit and decide when to trigger Article 50 instead of consulting with Scotland and Wales.

The Prime Minister’s slap down of Sturgeon has left the Europhile seething as she warned curbing EU migration would be disastrous for Scotland’s population.

A spokesman for Sturgeon said Mrs May’s Tory Government was in an “increasingly unacceptable and irresponsible position”.

He added that the Tory leader had given a “very clear undertaking when they met recently that she is prepared to consider options that the Scottish Government puts forward to protect Scotland's interests”.

Mrs May travelled to Edinburgh in July to hold talks with the SNP leader and told her she would not trigger Article 50 until she had found a “UK approach” and was “willing to listen to options” about Scotland’s EU relationship.

But Sturgeon was dealt a further blow when the Prime Minister dismissed giving Scotland a second independence referendum.

Despite facing a freeze out from Whitehall, a Downing Street spokesman said the cabinet was committed to ensuring Scots get a fair deal from Brexit.

But he said: “Cabinet members were clear that it is the United Kingdom's Government's decision to establish its terms and on when to trigger Article 50 and begin negotiations."

Mrs May met with her cabinet at Chequers on Wednesday and made it clear there would be no second referendum despite calls from bitter Europhiles.

In the meeting, the Prime Minister said: “We must continue to be very clear that 'Brexit means Brexit’, that we’re going to make a success of it.

“That means there’s no second referendum; no attempts to sort of stay in the EU by the back door; that we’re actually going to deliver on this.”

A Number 10 spokesman added: “Ministers agreed that we should be seizing the opportunity of Brexit to confirm the UK’s place as one of the great trading nations in the world, fostering entrepreneurialism and setting out a long-term vision for the country.

“They also agreed on the vital need to increase productivity and the importance of doing more to foster economic growth and industrial development in regions up and down the country.”

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/706046/Nicola-Sturgeon-Theresa-May-frozen-SNP-Brexit-Scotland-European-Union-EU
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 02, 2016, 11:32:42 AM
May tells Sturgeon.."We will decide Brexit terms"!

(http://i.imgur.com/Gw3u3L2.png?1)

By Charlie Peat
2nd September 2016

FROZEN OUT: Sturgeon furious as Theresa May tells SNP boss 'WE will decide Brexit terms'

BITTER Nicola Sturgeon has blasted Theresa May after the Prime Minister signalled Scottish ministers will be frozen out of Brexit discussions.

Mrs May told her Cabinet that the Government would “establish the terms” of Brexit and decide when to trigger Article 50 instead of consulting with Scotland and Wales.

The Prime Minister’s slap down of Sturgeon has left the Europhile seething as she warned curbing EU migration would be disastrous for Scotland’s population.

A spokesman for Sturgeon said Mrs May’s Tory Government was in an “increasingly unacceptable and irresponsible position”.

He added that the Tory leader had given a “very clear undertaking when they met recently that she is prepared to consider options that the Scottish Government puts forward to protect Scotland's interests”.

Mrs May travelled to Edinburgh in July to hold talks with the SNP leader and told her she would not trigger Article 50 until she had found a “UK approach” and was “willing to listen to options” about Scotland’s EU relationship.

But Sturgeon was dealt a further blow when the Prime Minister dismissed giving Scotland a second independence referendum.

Despite facing a freeze out from Whitehall, a Downing Street spokesman said the cabinet was committed to ensuring Scots get a fair deal from Brexit.

But he said: “Cabinet members were clear that it is the United Kingdom's Government's decision to establish its terms and on when to trigger Article 50 and begin negotiations."

Mrs May met with her cabinet at Chequers on Wednesday and made it clear there would be no second referendum despite calls from bitter Europhiles.

In the meeting, the Prime Minister said: “We must continue to be very clear that 'Brexit means Brexit’, that we’re going to make a success of it.

“That means there’s no second referendum; no attempts to sort of stay in the EU by the back door; that we’re actually going to deliver on this.”

A Number 10 spokesman added: “Ministers agreed that we should be seizing the opportunity of Brexit to confirm the UK’s place as one of the great trading nations in the world, fostering entrepreneurialism and setting out a long-term vision for the country.

“They also agreed on the vital need to increase productivity and the importance of doing more to foster economic growth and industrial development in regions up and down the country.”

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/706046/Nicola-Sturgeon-Theresa-May-frozen-SNP-Brexit-Scotland-European-Union-EU

Good for them. Until the majority of Scots and Welsh vote to leave The United Kingdom they are in it for better or worse. The last time I looked the UK Government was Theresa May's mob in Westminster not some devolved groups north of Hadrian's Wall or west of Offa's Dyke.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 02, 2016, 03:47:17 PM
Good for them. Until the majority of Scots and Welsh vote to leave The United Kingdom they are in it for better or worse. The last time I looked the UK Government was Theresa May's mob in Westminster not some devolved groups north of Hadrian's Wall or west of Offa's Dyke.

 8@??)( Well said!
 Many other Scots I know are fed up with old nick bumping her gums about what Scotland needs. We do not need open borders for any Tom,Dick or Harry to walk in demanding housing, and benefits,access to 'free' education fee health care and anything else they can think of ( for the record they are all suffering from some disorder so can claim disability benefits) only for the work shy. etc.

 We do need decent people who come to work and be part of our communities. This is called  immigration, and or work permits can be allowed-not benefit claiming permits as has been happening. Nick is still in her PC Brigade  mode with her fanciful ideas about multiculturalism being a good thing for Scotland. The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK government gets the say so. The UK as a whole voted Brexit, the UK Government gets the say so.
 
I am really fed up with the English hating rhetoric emanating from SNP. Thank goodness May is ignoring her.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 02, 2016, 05:23:19 PM
8@??)( Well said!
 Many other Scots I know are fed up with old nick bumping her gums about what Scotland needs. We do not need open borders for any Tom,Dick or Harry to walk in demanding housing, and benefits,access to 'free' education fee health care and anything else they can think of ( for the record they are all suffering from some disorder so can claim disability benefits) only for the work shy. etc.

 We do need decent people who come to work and be part of our communities. This is called  immigration, and or work permits can be allowed-not benefit claiming permits as has been happening. Nick is still in her PC Brigade  mode with her fanciful ideas about multiculturalism being a good thing for Scotland. The Scots voted to stay in the UK, the UK government gets the say so. The UK as a whole voted Brexit, the UK Government gets the say so.
 
I am really fed up with the English hating rhetoric emanating from SNP. Thank goodness May is ignoring her.

With a population estimated at just over 5 million Scotland has to realise that in sheer people terms they represent a mere 7% of the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 02, 2016, 06:20:52 PM
With a population estimated at just over 5 million Scotland has to realise that in sheer people terms they represent a mere 7% of the UK.

Dare one say fewer indeed that some other ethnic minorities.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 04, 2016, 12:19:31 AM
Theresa May: UK will be 'global leader in free trade'  8((()*/

The UK will be a "global leader" in free trade following the Brexit vote, Theresa May has said, as she heads to China for the G20 summit.

Speaking at Heathrow ahead of her first international conference since becoming prime minister, she insisted it was a "golden era" for UK-China relations.

(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/nintchdbpict000263889346.jpg)

Before boarding an RAF plane to eastern China, she told reporters: "The message for the G20 is that Britain is open for business, as a bold, confident, outward-looking country we will be playing a key role on the world stage.

"This is a golden era for UK-China relations and one of the things I will be doing at the G20 is obviously talking to President Xi about how we can develop the strategic partnership that we have between the UK and China.

"But I will also be talking to other world leaders about how we can develop free trade around the world and Britain wants to seize those opportunities.

"My ambition is that Britain will be a global leader in free trade.".  8@??)(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37257006
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on September 04, 2016, 12:45:51 AM
Australia eager to sign UK deal as Theresa May boosts Brexit at G20

AUSTRALIA is poised to sign a landmark trade deal with Britain as Theresa May tells the world that the UK is “open for business”.

Tomorrow Mrs May will meet Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who has already signalled that Australia will want to negotiate an important trade deal with the UK.

Speaking before the summit, she said: “We are going to make a success of Brexit and one way we will do that is by playing to Britain’s strengths as a great trading nation and forging our own new trade deals around the world.

Following the introductory phone call between Mrs May and Mr Turnbull in July, officials from the Department for International Trade have been in discussions about the expertise that Australia can offer, having themselves negotiated five free trade agreements in the last three years as well as the multilateral Trans Pacific Partnership.

This week a team of UK Government officials will hold talks in Canberra with their Australian counterparts about establishing a trade negotiating team.

The Australian government has also offered to send experienced negotiators to the UK. New Zealand and Canada are among other countries to have also offered the Government expertise. Later this month, one of New Zealand’s top trade negotiators will fly to London to provide support for officials in the Department for International Trade.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/706997/Australia-eager-sign-UK-deal-Theresa-May-boosts-Brexit-G20-China-summit-turnbull
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2016, 11:22:44 AM
Theresa May: UK will be 'global leader in free trade'  8((()*/

The UK will be a "global leader" in free trade following the Brexit vote, Theresa May has said, as she heads to China for the G20 summit.

Speaking at Heathrow ahead of her first international conference since becoming prime minister, she insisted it was a "golden era" for UK-China relations.

(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/nintchdbpict000263889346.jpg)

Before boarding an RAF plane to eastern China, she told reporters: "The message for the G20 is that Britain is open for business, as a bold, confident, outward-looking country we will be playing a key role on the world stage.

"This is a golden era for UK-China relations and one of the things I will be doing at the G20 is obviously talking to President Xi about how we can develop the strategic partnership that we have between the UK and China.

"But I will also be talking to other world leaders about how we can develop free trade around the world and Britain wants to seize those opportunities.

"My ambition is that Britain will be a global leader in free trade.".  8@??)(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37257006

..and pigs could evolve wings. @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on September 04, 2016, 11:24:06 AM
Australia eager to sign UK deal as Theresa May boosts Brexit at G20

AUSTRALIA is poised to sign a landmark trade deal with Britain as Theresa May tells the world that the UK is “open for business”.

Tomorrow Mrs May will meet Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull, who has already signalled that Australia will want to negotiate an important trade deal with the UK.

Speaking before the summit, she said: “We are going to make a success of Brexit and one way we will do that is by playing to Britain’s strengths as a great trading nation and forging our own new trade deals around the world.

Following the introductory phone call between Mrs May and Mr Turnbull in July, officials from the Department for International Trade have been in discussions about the expertise that Australia can offer, having themselves negotiated five free trade agreements in the last three years as well as the multilateral Trans Pacific Partnership.

This week a team of UK Government officials will hold talks in Canberra with their Australian counterparts about establishing a trade negotiating team.

The Australian government has also offered to send experienced negotiators to the UK. New Zealand and Canada are among other countries to have also offered the Government expertise. Later this month, one of New Zealand’s top trade negotiators will fly to London to provide support for officials in the Department for International Trade.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/706997/Australia-eager-sign-UK-deal-Theresa-May-boosts-Brexit-G20-China-summit-turnbull

Now remind John, when can deals be signed ?

Second, when will Brexit begin ?  8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 04, 2016, 06:39:16 PM
"Japan's government has warned that Brexit could result in the country's firms moving their European head offices out of Britain.

The strongly worded report from Japan's foreign ministry says the firms might want to move "if EU laws cease to be applicable in the UK".

It calls on Theresa May's government to deal with the companies' concerns in a "responsible manner".

Downing Street received the report earlier this week, the BBC understands.

Japanese firms employ an estimated 140,000 workers in the UK, with Nomura bank, manufacturing giant Hitachi and carmakers Honda, Nissan and Toyota all having major bases in the country.

The letter warns: "Japanese businesses with their European headquarters in the UK may decide to transfer their head-office function to Continental Europe if EU laws cease to be applicable in the UK after its withdrawal."

Japan's government has warned that Brexit could result in the country's firms moving their European head offices out of Britain.

The strongly worded report from Japan's foreign ministry says the firms might want to move "if EU laws cease to be applicable in the UK".

It calls on Theresa May's government to deal with the companies' concerns in a "responsible manner".

Downing Street received the report earlier this week, the BBC understands.

Japanese firms employ an estimated 140,000 workers in the UK, with Nomura bank, manufacturing giant Hitachi and carmakers Honda, Nissan and Toyota all having major bases in the country.

The letter warns: "Japanese businesses with their European headquarters in the UK may decide to transfer their head-office function to Continental Europe if EU laws cease to be applicable in the UK after its withdrawal."
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 05, 2016, 03:09:49 PM

"In truth May and her team may have little idea what the final Brexit settlement will look like and, as they try to craft a deal acceptable to both Nigel Farage, the CBI and the EU, the outcome is likely to emerge slowly and haphazardly. (That’s why David Cameron once said a Brexit vote would mean “three years of Euro-wank".)"

The boy had a certain sense of style after all.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 14, 2016, 07:21:25 PM
There is story running in some newspapers that several American States want to do a Brexit.

Hilarious. @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on November 14, 2016, 07:28:46 PM
There is story running in some newspapers that several American States want to do a Brexit.

Hilarious. @)(++(* @)(++(*
Great idea.  The west coast and the east coast states should exit leaving the shitty states in the middle to indulge in Trump Love alone.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 14, 2016, 07:31:22 PM
Great idea.  The west coast and the east coast states should exit leaving the shitty states in the middle to indulge in Trump Love alone.

I would love to see that.

After all, if that is the democratic wish of the residents of those States, brexiters should all be behind them, metaphorically as opposed to literally. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 14, 2016, 10:43:30 PM
There is story running in some newspapers that several American States want to do a Brexit.

Hilarious. @)(++(* @)(++(*

It could well be, and it could lead to another civil war in USA. The situation would be those who support Clinton and her open door policy- who would be unabe to contain a criminal element in 'her' states, if they moved on out into those states which do not want them then....oh dear!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: mercury on November 14, 2016, 10:47:30 PM
"In truth May and her team may have little idea what the final Brexit settlement will look like and, as they try to craft a deal acceptable to both Nigel Farage, the CBI and the EU, the outcome is likely to emerge slowly and haphazardly. (That’s why David Cameron once said a Brexit vote would mean “three years of Euro-wank".)"

The boy had a certain sense of style after all.

Yes the style of a 6 year old in a sweet shop and chosng the PM sweet
Then never losing the 6 yr old trousers
Total tosser
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 15, 2016, 02:37:15 AM
It could well be, and it could lead to another civil war in USA. The situation would be those who support Clinton and her open door policy- who would be unabe to contain a criminal element in 'her' states, if they moved on out into those states which do not want them then....oh dear!

What ?

Maybe, just maybe, a large  percentage of the population have no wish to be trumped.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 15, 2016, 10:13:03 AM

' Leaked Brexit memo: no single plan and Whitehall is struggling to cope

Leaked Cabinet Office document reported to say departments overwhelmed with Brexit work and ministers split on strategy'


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/whitehall-struggling-to-cope-with-scale-of-work-arising-from-brexit-vote

Oh, what a surprise. I never expected that in a million years. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 17, 2016, 06:41:37 PM
I did expect it. we are entering a new phase in our countries history. Early days yet.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2016, 07:15:38 PM
I did expect it. we are entering a new phase in our countries history. Early days yet.

...and now within the court system.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 17, 2016, 07:35:01 PM
...and now within the court system.

A minor set back...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2016, 07:39:17 PM
A minor set back...

Perhaps you should ask Teresa May, after all, she is an expert in UK Law. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 17, 2016, 08:22:45 PM
Perhaps you should ask Teresa May, after all, she is an expert in UK Law. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

Laws can challenged.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2016, 09:33:30 PM
Laws can challenged.

Let's see what the Supreme Court says about this.

I can't post a link right now as regards this, but I will tomorrow, and if correct in it's contents, it could well put a major dampener on May's plans.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 17, 2016, 10:08:25 PM
Let's see what the Supreme Court says about this.

I can't post a link right now as regards this, but I will tomorrow, and if correct in it's contents, it could well put a major dampener on May's plans.

It is worth remebering the UK public did not vOte for the EU in its form, we voted for a common market. so there is no valid mandate to force us to stay in really. Also, what are the Europeans going to do if we refuse to give benefits to all and sundry... Kill us? hahaha

It is also worth remebring that Ireland voted no against EU and it was deleted to be re done for the only out come the EU would accept.  They didn't vote for the people who made those laws.. you couldn't make it up .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 17, 2016, 10:10:37 PM
It is worth remebering the UK public did not vOte for the EU in its form, we voted for a common market. so there is no valid mandate to force us to stay in really. Also, what are the Europeans going to do if we refuse to give benefits to all and sundry... Kill us? hahaha

It is also worth remebring that Ireland voted no against EU and it was deleted to be re done for the only out come the EU would accept.  They didn't vote for the people who made those laws.. you couldn't make it up .


Wait for the link tomorrow.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 18, 2016, 07:39:35 AM
' Supreme court judge hints at legal hitch that could seriously delay Brexit '

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/supreme-court-judges-views-on-article-50-legislation-anger-leave-campaigners

A supreme court judge has raised the prospect that Theresa May would have to comprehensively replace existing EU legislation before the government could even begin Brexit, in a move that could seriously delay the process.

In a speech that angered leave campaigners, Lady Hale said the supreme court judges could go further than simply forcing May to publish a short piece of legislation to approve the triggering of article 50.

The deputy president of the court said that next month’s case – in which the supreme court will hear the government’s appeal against a high court ruling that MPs must approve the triggering of article 50 – raised “difficult and delicate issues” about the relationship between government and parliament.

“Another question is whether it would be enough for a simple act of parliament to authorise the government to give notice, or whether it would have to be a comprehensive replacement of the 1972 act,” she said in comments to law students in Kuala Lumpur that were published online on Tuesday. The European Communities Act 1972 took the UK into the then European Economic Community.

Hale set out the arguments on both sides of what is expected to be the most constitutionally significant case ever heard by the supreme court. She told the students that while 51.9% of the British electorate had voted to leave the EU, “that referendum was not legally binding on parliament”.

She put forward the argument that the government was likely to make, saying it would suggest: “The basis on which the referendum was undertaken was that the government would give effect to the result. Beginning the process would not change the law.”

The comments come amid reports that the government has prepared a short three-line bill aimed at helping May stick to her March deadline for triggering article 50 if the supreme court ruled that was necessary. Ministers are said to have drawn up short legislation that would be difficult to amend.

Hale is one of 11 judges due to hear the case at the supreme court, which comes after the high court ruling immediately triggered a backlash from some politicians and rightwing media. The Daily Mail described the judges as “enemies of the people”.

The former work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith said Hale had pro-EU views and warned that it was not the job of judges to tell parliament what to do. Duncan Smith said: “This is a very big step. If they were to do this it’s a constitutional crisis. What the judges will decide on at the supreme court is whether or not the government can use its executive powers to trigger article 5

“It is not their job to tell parliament … how they should go about that business, that’s for parliament to decide.”

He said “the individual concerned” had always opposed Britain leaving the EU, and said that he did not believe that would be a majority view in the supreme court.

The Conservative MP Dominic Raab said: “If judges dip their toes in political waters by making speeches outside the courtroom, they are asking to get splashed back.”

Raab did not question whether the comments suggested which way Hale would sway but argued that she simply should not have made any public comments. “I’m all for democratic debate. But you can’t have it both ways. If such a senior judge muses in public about a pending supreme court judgment, the judiciary can hardly scream blue murder if politicians, the media or public respond,” he said.

After the outcry over the high court ruling, the prime minister was told to calm the “mob”, with the former attorney general Dominic Grieve saying the coverage “started to make one think that one was living in Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe”.

Other Brexit supporters also lashed out at Hale’s lecture. Sir Bill Cash, a Tory MP and chairman of the European scrutiny committee, said: “I am astounded that a justice of the supreme court would venture into this territory before hearing the evidence of the case. It appears completely contrary to the proper relationship between the courts and parliament for her to suggest what parliament should do.”

A supreme court spokesman said that Hale was simply presenting the arguments from both sides of the article 50 appeal in an impartial way for an audience of law students as part of a wider lecture on constitutional law, and it was proper for judges to set out arguments in high-profile cases to help public understanding of the issues involved in an even-handed way.

“One of the questions raised in these proceedings is what form of legislation would be necessary for parliament to be able to lawfully trigger article 50, if the government loses its appeal,” the spokesman said. “A number of politicians have raised the same question. Though it was not dealt with explicitly in the high court judgment, it is not a new issue. In no way was Lady Hale offering a view on what the likely outcome might be.”


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 25, 2016, 06:27:08 PM
'Boris Johnson is a clown who has united the EU against Britain'

Britain can be proud of itself. Once again, it had already shown the world the way. In propelling Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage to triumph on 23 June, it demonstrated well before 8 November that Donald Trump was nothing new.

In fact foolishness, vulgarity, inconsistency and irresponsibility seem actually to be British inventions that have been painstakingly copied – once more – by the Americans.

The age of such drab characters as Margaret Thatcher and David Cameron is over. No more, it appears, must we suffer leaders equipped with a brain and a sense of the common interest. The hour of the political clown has come.

In a few short weeks, Boris Johnson, the former journalist – for whom facts were never an obstacle likely to get in the way of a good story – has succeeded in squandering what little sympathy and understanding was left in Europe for a Great Britain embroiled in the mess of this referendum.

It is quite some diplomatic achievement to have succeeded in uniting, as never before, the 27 remaining members of the European Union – including Germany and the Netherlands – who are all now firmly together in deciding to do the UK no favours whatsoever.

It will be a “hard Brexit” not because that is what Theresa May wants, but because her future ex-partners consider they have no choice faced with a Great Britain so resolutely indecisive.

 There are liars and then there’s Boris Johnson and Michael Gove

Johnson has deeply annoyed his continental partners by displaying, firstly, his complete ignorance of the union (perhaps not altogether surprising if you knew him as a “journalist” in Brussels, as I did). According to his very personal interpretation of the European treaties, it is “bollocks” to say that the four fundamental freedoms (free movement of people, goods, services and capital) are inseparable.

“Everybody now has it in their head that every human being has some fundamental God-given right to move wherever they want,” he said earlier this month.

For Johnson, here there can of course be a “dynamic trade relationship and we will take back control of our borders, but we remain an open and welcoming society”.

Yet the German finance minister, Wolfgang Schäuble, warned him very clearly as early as September. “We’ll happily send Her Majesty’s foreign minister a copy of the Lisbon treaty,” he said. “He can then read about the fact that there’s a certain connection between the single market and the four freedoms. At a pinch, I can talk about it in English.”

Schäuble reiterated on 18 November that there “will be no à la carte menu. There is only the whole menu or none.” His Dutch colleague Jeroen Dijsselbloem, meanwhile, hammered the message home: Johnson is spouting stuff that is “intellectually impossible” and “politically unachievable”.

 
Nevertheless, Johnson repeats his mantra ad infinitum: he is right, and the others are all wrong. The problem, however, is that at the end of the day it is the others who will decide. And if you want something from someone, it is generally wiser to avoid telling them they are an idiot.

But the foreign secretary adds clumsiness to ignorance. Johnson – who has, remember, written a biography of Winston Churchill – does not seem to grasp that it takes a mind with a rare degree of finesse to be able to combine humour and diplomacy.

His quip that the Italians would sell less prosecco to Britain if the UK was not able to stay in the single market not only created a diplomatic incident, but underlined the obvious weakness of the British argument: if the EU risks losing access to a market of 64 million Brits, Britain will lose access to a market of 440 million Europeans.


Stay out of EU affairs, leading MEP tells British government
 
And last but not least, Johnson, who himself raised the spectre of hordes of Turkish citizens arriving in the UK if it stayed in the union, now steps up as as the most ardent defender there is of Ankara joining the EU – even if it reintroduces the death penalty.

“I can no longer respect this,” raged the normally placid Manfred Weber, leader of the conservative EPP group in the European parliament. “When you want to leave a club, you have no say anymore in the long-term future of this club.”

A famous French screenwriter Michel Audiard coined a phrase in the early 1960s that applies perfectly to Johnson: “Les cons, ça ose tout, c’est même à ça qu’on les reconnaît.” This means, roughly: “Fools” (to choose a relatively inoffensive rendering) “will try anything – that’s how you know they’re fools.”

The foreign secretary, who like Trump is no fan of beating about the bush, will pardon my familiarity. Or perhaps not.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/25/boris-johnson-clown-eu-britain-foreign-secretary

I see one of the comments summed it up to a tee................

'Brexshitte'. with an extra 't' and 'e'  added.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 26, 2016, 01:42:27 PM
' Supreme court judge hints at legal hitch that could seriously delay Brexit '

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/15/supreme-court-judges-views-on-article-50-legislation-anger-leave-campaigners

A supreme court judge has raised the prospect that Theresa May would have to comprehensively replace existing EU legislation before the government could even begin Brexit, in a move that could seriously delay the process.

In a speech that angered leave campaigners, Lady Hale said the supreme court judges could go further than simply forcing May to publish a short piece of legislation to approve the triggering of article 50.

The deputy president of the court said that next month’s case – in which the supreme court will hear the government’s appeal against a high court ruling that MPs must approve the triggering of article 50 – raised “difficult and delicate issues” about the relationship between government and parliament.

“Another question is whether it would be enough for a simple act of parliament to authorise the government to give notice, or whether it would have to be a comprehensive replacement of the 1972 act,” she said in comments to law students in Kuala Lumpur that were published online on Tuesday. The European Communities Act 1972 took the UK into the then European Economic Community.

Hale set out the arguments on both sides of what is expected to be the most constitutionally significant case ever heard by the supreme court. She told the students that while 51.9% of the British electorate had voted to leave the EU, “that referendum was not legally binding on parliament”.

She put forward the argument that the government was likely to make, saying it would suggest: “The basis on which the referendum was undertaken was that the government would give effect to the result. Beginning the process would not change the law.”

The comments come amid reports that the government has prepared a short three-line bill aimed at helping May stick to her March deadline for triggering article 50 if the supreme court ruled that was necessary. Ministers are said to have drawn up short legislation that would be difficult to amend.

Hale is one of 11 judges due to hear the case at the supreme court, which comes after the high court ruling immediately triggered a backlash from some politicians and rightwing media. The Daily Mail described the judges as “enemies of the people”.

The former work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith said Hale had pro-EU views and warned that it was not the job of judges to tell parliament what to do. Duncan Smith said: “This is a very big step. If they were to do this it’s a constitutional crisis. What the judges will decide on at the supreme court is whether or not the government can use its executive powers to trigger article 5

“It is not their job to tell parliament … how they should go about that business, that’s for parliament to decide.”

He said “the individual concerned” had always opposed Britain leaving the EU, and said that he did not believe that would be a majority view in the supreme court.

The Conservative MP Dominic Raab said: “If judges dip their toes in political waters by making speeches outside the courtroom, they are asking to get splashed back.”

Raab did not question whether the comments suggested which way Hale would sway but argued that she simply should not have made any public comments. “I’m all for democratic debate. But you can’t have it both ways. If such a senior judge muses in public about a pending supreme court judgment, the judiciary can hardly scream blue murder if politicians, the media or public respond,” he said.

After the outcry over the high court ruling, the prime minister was told to calm the “mob”, with the former attorney general Dominic Grieve saying the coverage “started to make one think that one was living in Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe”.

Other Brexit supporters also lashed out at Hale’s lecture. Sir Bill Cash, a Tory MP and chairman of the European scrutiny committee, said: “I am astounded that a justice of the supreme court would venture into this territory before hearing the evidence of the case. It appears completely contrary to the proper relationship between the courts and parliament for her to suggest what parliament should do.”

A supreme court spokesman said that Hale was simply presenting the arguments from both sides of the article 50 appeal in an impartial way for an audience of law students as part of a wider lecture on constitutional law, and it was proper for judges to set out arguments in high-profile cases to help public understanding of the issues involved in an even-handed way.

“One of the questions raised in these proceedings is what form of legislation would be necessary for parliament to be able to lawfully trigger article 50, if the government loses its appeal,” the spokesman said. “A number of politicians have raised the same question. Though it was not dealt with explicitly in the high court judgment, it is not a new issue. In no way was Lady Hale offering a view on what the likely outcome might be.”

Stephen what we have here is from Hale   ifs, but, maybees. could, would,hints at..ALL a little story to scare pants off people In Kuala Lumpaland?

"In no way was Lady Hale offering a view on what the likely outcome might be" which is good because she would be lending herslef to serious claims of 'match fixing' scenario. IE she has spoke there for she judges on her beliefs, and not what is being discussed.

Yeah, well golly,gosh...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 26, 2016, 03:40:17 PM
Stephen what we have here is from Hale   ifs, but, maybees. could, would,hints at..ALL a little story to scare pants off people In Kuala Lumpaland?

"In no way was Lady Hale offering a view on what the likely outcome might be" which is good because she would be lending herslef to serious claims of 'match fixing' scenario. IE she has spoke there for she judges on her beliefs, and not what is being discussed.

Yeah, well golly,gosh...

Well golly gosh, perhaps it is time that you and others leave the twilight zone and face reality .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on November 26, 2016, 04:17:08 PM
 
Well golly gosh, perhaps it is time that you and others leave the twilight zone and face reality .
Facing it already... what will be will be. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on November 26, 2016, 05:34:16 PM
Facing it already... what will be will be. 8**8:/:

Since you ask, up Brexshitte without a paddle. 8)--)) 8((()*/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 27, 2016, 05:45:10 PM
Stephen what we have here is from Hale   ifs, but, maybees. could, would,hints at..ALL a little story to scare pants off people In Kuala Lumpaland?

"In no way was Lady Hale offering a view on what the likely outcome might be" which is good because she would be lending herslef to serious claims of 'match fixing' scenario. IE she has spoke there for she judges on her beliefs, and not what is being discussed.

Yeah, well golly,gosh...

If Lady Hale said what the Grauniad reported she said then she would have been out of order. Under those circumstances one would hope that 'im wot percheth upon the Woolsack had a not so quiet word in her shell like.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on November 30, 2016, 01:35:32 PM
"We're Heading For A Trade War And We'll Lose"

Excellent article in today's Times by Danny Finkelstein:




Quote
We’ve got a secretary of state all dressed up and ready to negotiate. We’ll be out of the EU and looking out to the world. We’ll be out of the Customs Union, too, and able to do our own deals. A new era of global free trade beckons for this country. That, at least, is the idea. I just wish I was that confident.

In September 2009, under pressure from the United Steelworkers union, President Barack Obama imposed a new tax on car and truck tyres imported from China. Over three years, the tax rose to more than 35 per cent. And here, based on industry and government data, is what happened.

US importers stopped buying as many Chinese tyres. Of course they did. Instead, they bought them from Indonesia. Since these tyres were more expensive, domestic tyre manufacturers were able to put their prices up too and keep a bit more of the market. The combined effect cost the consumer $1.112 billion.

The policy did save some jobs. About 1,200 jobs in fact, each of them paying about $40,000 a year. So more than a billion pounds was extracted from consumers to save $48 million of jobs.

Unfortunately the tax didn’t even do that. As people spent more money on tyres, Indonesian and domestic, there was a drop in spending on other items. This cost more than 3,700 jobs. Given that tyre manufacturers are only one of the constituents of the United Steelworkers, it is possible that, together, the union and the president actually lost more members’ jobs than they saved. Certainly more jobs were lost than saved across the whole economy.


You would have thought that such an outcome would be so embarrassing that no one would mention it again. But in the 2012 presidential debates Mr Obama raised the topic, in order to congratulate himself on protecting tyre workers.

Now Donald Trump has been elected arguing that this nonsense was simply not good enough. There needs to be more of it.

Steve Bannon, Mr Trump’s chief strategist, gave an interview after the election rejecting charges that he was a racist. “I’m not a white nationalist,” he said. “I’m a nationalist. I’m an economic nationalist.” To this he added: “The globalists gutted the American working class and created a middle class in Asia.”

In Mr Trump’s first broadcast as president-elect, his very first promise was to abandon the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the trade deal between 12 countries signed in February. This nationalist position is economically illiterate, but politically powerful. And when Mr Bannon says he wants to make economic nationalism the basis of a world movement, I take him very seriously indeed.

The case made by economic nationalists against free trade is simply wrong in almost every particular. It’s wrong because it forgets that people who make goods also buy them. So the American working class that Mr Bannon claims to champion are enriched by trade not impoverished by it. The giant sucking sound that presidential candidate Ross Perot predicted as jobs departed to Mexico after the North Atlantic Free Trade Agreement has not been heard.

It’s wrong because it ignores the fact that products are dependent upon each other. The limitations placed on sugar imports are designed to help the sugar producers but are a disaster for the food-processing industry. In the 1990s, the Lifesaver candy plant on Michigan produced about three million rolls of Lifesavers a day, employing 650 people. In 2002, to escape high sugar prices, it closed down and moved to Canada.

It’s wrong because it ignores the way that the competition provided by trade pushes up productivity, and it is rising productivity that lifts wages.

It is wrong because it looks at the creation of a middle class in Asia as bad for America and only possible at its expense. But it is good for everyone that NAFTA helped create a more prosperous, liberal and democratic Mexico. And TPP was a major part of the Japanese government’s strategy to restructure its economy, from which they would not be the only beneficiary. Does America not want them to spend more money on defence?

And most of all, it is wrong because it just isn’t true that trade is replacing high-paid jobs with low-paid ones. On the contrary, as Douglas Irwin argues cogently in his book Free Trade Under Fire, the evidence suggests that in advanced economies trade increases the proportion of high-paid to low-paid jobs. Workers with less skills are under pressure but this is because of new technology, and not because of trade. The evidence on this is overwhelming.

So if economic nationalism is illiterate, why do I regard it as so politically powerful? And why do I worry about it coming here?

First, the costs of adjustment in the economy are usually concentrated on specific groups while the benefits are spread across many people. So it becomes economically worthwhile for groups of people losing out to resist adjustment, while not really worthwhile for the broad mass to spend energy on fighting back.

Technological change is hard to resist, while trade is much easier, even though trade isn’t really the problem. So as Labour begins to fight Ukip or a similar force in the north, economic nationalism may recommend itself to both sides. For Ukip it just fits, while for Labour it is a way of identifying with the pressures and nationalist instincts of core voters, without sacrificing their own liberalism on migration.

Britain has long been the world champion of free trade and this government will certainly wish to maintain that position. But we are now leaving the one big trade arrangement we have made and it has been decades since we last negotiated a free trade deal of our own. When we do, is it unduly pessimistic to wonder if we will all remain as united on free trade?

Any deal, with any country, will raise some of the sovereignty issues on the right that the EU raised. And on the left there will be concerns that any arrangement might undermine domestic regulation or workers’ rights. Moving to satisfy the right will increase problems with the left and vice versa.

Doubt me? Look at what happened over the proposed transatlantic deal with the EU, TTIP, which was opposed by right and left.

And at the same time there will be protectionist moves by other countries — the US under Mr Trump, the EU responding to Brexit politically rather than economically — all of which will encourage self-defeating British retaliation.

I don’t think I’ve ever ended a column feeling this more strongly: I really hope that I am wrong.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 30, 2016, 10:53:16 PM
Private "Wur Doomed" Frazer rides again.
I don't see why the fuss about Trump wanting to pull out of TPP. No one has ratified it yet and it has mixed reviews from the experts.
There are also conflicting views why Japan became involved:
"Japan's main competition in the region is China, and the two nations have polar views on how the South-east Asia's economy should develop. Prior to the TPP Japan tried to take dominance by establishing the Asian Monetary Fund (AMF), which the U.S blocked. By 2011 Japan managed to establish a cooperative agreement with China and Korea called the "PRC–Japan–Republic of Korea Free trade agreement", also known as the CJK FTA, which did not include the U.S. Japan's intention with this was so that they could use the People's Republic of China card in order to gain U.S support in order to have backing within the TPP, and shift the negotiations toward Japan's agendas with support of the United States".
Then:
"Nobel Memorial Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman has said that "there isn't a compelling case for this deal, from either a global or a national point of view."

Some interesting thought provoking stuff in here if you can be arsed to wade your way through it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 02, 2016, 02:57:23 PM
According to a report on Sky News earlier, the Supreme Court appeal might not be the end of the road.

It could well go the European Court afterwards.

Now, wouldn't that be an irony.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 03, 2016, 04:45:34 PM
I see the Daily Fascist, nee Mail, is now personally attacking the Supreme Court judges dealing with Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 11:36:25 AM
Gina Miller arrived at the Supreme Court with bodyguards. She revealed sh's had several death threats, her staff have been threatened, and there's a bounty on her head.

Simply staggering, and the Mail calls it 'The Battle of Britain'.

Strange isn't it, when Brexiters wanted the rule of UK  law, that when it is applied they don't want it, and out comes the threats and extremism.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 05, 2016, 05:06:24 PM
Gina Miller arrived at the Supreme Court with bodyguards. She revealed sh's had several death threats, her staff have been threatened, and there's a bounty on her head.

Simply staggering, and the Mail calls it 'The Battle of Britain'.

Strange isn't it, when Brexiters wanted the rule of UK  law, that when it is applied they don't want it, and out comes the threats and extremism.

I agree it is rather strange.  I too had the impression those in favour of brexit wanted "their country back" and to re-establish the sovereignty of Parliament and the rule of law.  Which is exactly what the High Court ruled. 

Just shows how wrong you can be. 

Maybe someone could explain what the problem is. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 05, 2016, 05:28:02 PM
I see the Daily Fascist, nee Mail, is now personally attacking the Supreme Court judges dealing with Brexit.

I took it to be they were informing the public about who will be judging, unfortunate they are all Remainer sympathisers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 05, 2016, 05:40:14 PM
I agree it is rather strange.  I too had the impression those in favour of brexit wanted "their country back" and to re-establish the sovereignty of Parliament and the rule of law.  Which is exactly what the High Court ruled. 

Just shows how wrong you can be. 

Maybe someone could explain what the problem is.

It really doesn't help when one group  begin to analyse an outcome by lobbing every brexit voter as being the great unwashed ,uneducated, racists. It also doesn't help that some unfortunates have not been educated to a level where they can understand the difference between Justice and law. They don't always go together.

It also doesn't help that not one of these left wing luvvie remainers took the Blair Governement to court to challenge the legality of a war AND still remain unhinged that Parliament and the people they represent was hood winked by a war monger. It doesn't help HE is back to try and remove more of our freedoms.

 It just doesn't help that a wealthy foreigner feels she has a right on behalf other wealthy people  to try and thwart a very important phase in the Uk history by spitting a dummy out of a pram.

The mindless thugs who are threatening these Judges are doing so becuase they cannot afford to take their grievience to court...OH THE IRONY.  That makes them angry and dangerous. I will still say today what I said 10 years ago...We could still have a a civil war.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Jean-Pierre on December 05, 2016, 05:46:43 PM
I took it to be they were informing the public about who will be judging, unfortunate they are all Remainer sympathisers.

Attorney General Jeremy Wright QC said the High Court made the 'wrong' decision because the EU vote was written off as 'legally irrelevant' even though it was set up with the 'universal expectation that the Government would implement its result'.

Happily, he does not have any power of direction over the courts.  His role is to serve as the chief legal adviser of the Crown and its government in England and Wales.

So I think in the words of Mandy Rice Davis "he would say that, wouldn't he".

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4001028/Remainer-Gina-Miller-arrives-Supreme-Court-latest-stage-Brexit-legal-battle-claiming-judges-unfairly-vilified-longer-travel-public-transport-abuse.html#ixzz4RzEUqcEx
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 06:41:56 PM
I agree it is rather strange.  I too had the impression those in favour of brexit wanted "their country back" and to re-establish the sovereignty of Parliament and the rule of law.  Which is exactly what the High Court ruled. 

Just shows how wrong you can be. 

Maybe someone could explain what the problem is.

Indeed JP, I would like the answer to that one.

Or is it democracy for the Brexitt supporters and no one else ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 05, 2016, 08:23:36 PM
Indeed JP, I would like the answer to that one.

Or is it democracy for the Brexitt supporters and no one else ?

I think it is democracy for those who have the money to pay for it, lobbyists, Oligarchs self intrest groups of many persuasions etc. Thinking it is anything else is pointless really. IMO 
This democracy  thingy, the EU one, which remainers want to keep what say you about unelected president and 'staff' having a say in what you say, what you think and still call it freedom of speech... &%+((£
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 08:50:09 PM
I think it is democracy for those who have the money to pay for it, lobbyists, Oligarchs self intrest groups of many persuasions etc. Thinking it is anything else is pointless really. IMO 
This democracy  thingy, the EU one, which remainers want to keep what say you about unelected president and 'staff' having a say in what you say, what you think and still call it freedom of speech... &%+((£

You mean the millionaires and billionaires behind such newspapers such as the Mail, Telegraph, Sun, Express etc.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 05, 2016, 09:23:56 PM
You mean the millionaires and billionaires behind such newspapers such as the Mail, Telegraph, Sun, Express etc.

Yeah, those come under 'self interest groups' as do energy companies, and all other companies now owned and run by non uk citizens.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 09:25:48 PM
Yeah, those come under 'self interest groups' as do energy companies, and all other companies now owned and run by non uk citizens.  8(0(*

These are the ones supporting Brexit. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 05, 2016, 09:32:44 PM
These are the ones supporting Brexit. 8)-)))

'They' do not speak for me or my reasons for wanting to leave the EU. 'they' have an agenda as do the remainer millionaires, none of it for the benefit of the  people who live and work here legally.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 09:48:52 PM
'They' do not speak for me or my reasons for wanting to leave the EU. 'they' have an agenda as do the remainer millionaires, none of it for the benefit of the  people who live and work here legally.

The ones I am referring to are stirring up hatred, and a rather unpleasant attack on the legal system, which they puport to support.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on December 05, 2016, 10:00:44 PM
The ones I am referring to are stirring up hatred, and a rather unpleasant attack on the legal system, which they puport to support.

Seems to me most people in England are sick to the back teeth of the EU wasters.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 05, 2016, 10:03:07 PM
Seems to me most people in England are sick to the back teeth of the EU wasters.

Which EU wasters are you referring to Angelo ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on December 06, 2016, 04:11:34 PM
Which EU wasters are you referring to Angelo ?

The European Parliament of course.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 06, 2016, 06:44:47 PM
The European Parliament of course.

Including Farage, who has screwed the tax payer for £2,000,000.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 11, 2016, 09:04:32 AM

Surveys from YouGov and Which? point to a growing worry that Brexit will leave the UK poorer


 The poll by YouGov suggested that a rerun of the referendum vote now would result in a tie.
 
The British public will not accept a Brexit deal that leaves them worse off financially, a new poll suggests. In a sign that a majority of the public would be unwilling to accept an economically damaging hard Brexit, half of those who voted to leave the EU in June, including 62% of Labour voters and 59% of those in the north, would not be willing to lose any money at all as a consequence of Britain’s withdrawal.

Just one in 10 would be willing to lose more than £100 a month. Pollster Peter Kellner, the former president of YouGov, said the results suggested that Theresa May “could have real difficulty in delivering a Brexit that satisfies those who voted for it”.

He added: “This is the first poll to look specifically at whether leave voters are willing to accept any financial loss as a result of Brexit. The answer is that few are prepared to.”

The poll, conducted by YouGov for Open Britain, the successor organisation to Britain Stronger in Europe, also shows that one in five (22%) of voters do not expect Brexit to have any impact on their finances. Just 5% believe they will be better off, while 28% expect to lose money and 45% do not know – despite Vote Leave’s now infamous pledge that quitting Brussels would boost the public purse by £350m a week.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/10/poll-public-will-not-accept-brexit-worse-off-tim-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 11, 2016, 06:52:26 PM
Surveys from YouGov and Which? point to a growing worry that Brexit will leave the UK poorer


 The poll by YouGov suggested that a rerun of the referendum vote now would result in a tie.
 
The British public will not accept a Brexit deal that leaves them worse off financially, a new poll suggests. In a sign that a majority of the public would be unwilling to accept an economically damaging hard Brexit, half of those who voted to leave the EU in June, including 62% of Labour voters and 59% of those in the north, would not be willing to lose any money at all as a consequence of Britain’s withdrawal.

Just one in 10 would be willing to lose more than £100 a month. Pollster Peter Kellner, the former president of YouGov, said the results suggested that Theresa May “could have real difficulty in delivering a Brexit that satisfies those who voted for it”.

He added: “This is the first poll to look specifically at whether leave voters are willing to accept any financial loss as a result of Brexit. The answer is that few are prepared to.”

The poll, conducted by YouGov for Open Britain, the successor organisation to Britain Stronger in Europe, also shows that one in five (22%) of voters do not expect Brexit to have any impact on their finances. Just 5% believe they will be better off, while 28% expect to lose money and 45% do not know – despite Vote Leave’s now infamous pledge that quitting Brussels would boost the public purse by £350m a week.



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/10/poll-public-will-not-accept-brexit-worse-off-tim-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov

I seriously think that people should be required to pass some kind of test to show that they are aware of the issues at stake prior to voting. If people vote with knee-jerk reactions based solely or largely on the tabloid media that sustain their confirmation bias, how on earth can they come to a reasoned decision?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 11, 2016, 07:16:36 PM
I seriously think that people should be required to pass some kind of test to show that they are aware of the issues at stake prior to voting. If people vote with knee-jerk reactions based solely or largely on the tabloid media that sustain their confirmation bias, how on earth can they come to a reasoned decision?

I totally agree Carana.

I would expect a fair proportion of those who voted to leave the EU, did so without thinking through the possible consequences of their actions.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 08, 2017, 07:40:34 PM
So T. May is going to give us a hard Brexit.

As hard as a bowl of melted butter. 8)--))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 11, 2017, 02:06:55 PM
So T. May is going to give us a hard Brexit.

As hard as a bowl of melted butter. 8)--))

The harder the better.  The UK won't be dictated to by a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats in the EU.

International trade in the UK has never been better so the future is rosey. The sooner we kick the EU out of our country for good the better, its only a matter of time before it crumbles anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2017, 02:32:51 PM
The harder the better.  The UK won't be dictated to by a bunch of unaccountable bureaucrats in the EU.

International trade in the UK has never been better so the future is rosey. The sooner we kick the EU out of our country for good the better, its only a matter of time before it crumbles anyway.

We shall see.

Corbyn wiped the floor with her today at PM's questions, and if she can't nail him...

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on January 11, 2017, 05:53:22 PM
We shall see.

Corbyn wiped the floor with her today at PM's questions, and if she can't nail him...
Talking of Corbyn, does anyone know whether or not he's for the free movement of people or not, or just a little bit, but only on a Thursday?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 11, 2017, 07:12:10 PM
Talking of Corbyn, does anyone know whether or not he's for the free movement of people or not, or just a little bit, but only on a Thursday?

I reckon, like May, he hasn't got a clue.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 16, 2017, 05:22:18 PM

We all know by now that Brexit means Brexit, (or Breakfast).

I've heard lots of different kinds of Brexit being mentioned....Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit, Fast Brexit, Red White & Blue Brexit...

The most recent type of Brexit I've seen postured by Theresa May is a Clean Brexit

I was rather hoping for  Dirty Brexit myself.

Or... Sexy Brexit, perhaps.... alas, Theresa May has no chance of delivering that one, regardless of the price of her shoes.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 05:56:12 PM
We all know by now that Brexit means Brexit, (or Breakfast).

I've heard lots of different kinds of Brexit being mentioned....Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit, Fast Brexit, Red White & Blue Brexit...

The most recent type of Brexit I've seen postured by Theresa May is a Clean Brexit

I was rather hoping for  Dirty Brexit myself.

Or... Sexy Brexit, perhaps.... alas, Theresa May has no chance of delivering that one, regardless of the price of her shoes.

Don't forget the red , white and blue brexit.

T. May is full of hot air , and in a job she is not cut out to do, and that is not because of her gender.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 16, 2017, 07:22:41 PM
We all know by now that Brexit means Brexit, (or Breakfast).

I've heard lots of different kinds of Brexit being mentioned....Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit, Fast Brexit, Red White & Blue Brexit...

The most recent type of Brexit I've seen postured by Theresa May is a Clean Brexit

I was rather hoping for  Dirty Brexit myself.

Or... Sexy Brexit, perhaps.... alas, Theresa May has no chance of delivering that one, regardless of the price of her shoes.

I suppose if a soft Brexit were coupled with a blue Brexit it might become a hard Brexit and then graduate to.............................. &%+((£
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 08:05:48 PM
I suppose if a soft Brexit were coupled with a blue Brexit it might become a hard Brexit and then graduate to.............................. &%+((£

Maybe, one of Trump's showers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2017, 08:13:16 PM
The only Brexit worth doing is a hard Brexit which will entail a total separation from the EU.  The US President-elect has just announced a fast-track trade deal with the UK which was inevitable. He has also predicted the break up of the EU following the UK's exit, again, inevitable.  It was a long time coming but we got there in the end.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 08:17:04 PM
The only Brexit worth doing is a hard which will entail a total separation from the EU.  The US President-elect has just announced a fast track trade deal with the UK which was inevitable. He has also predicted the break up of the EU following the UK's exit, again, inevitable.

Saying you can negotiate a fast trade deal is one thing, delivering it is another.

Brexit has yet to be start.

The brexit negotiations have to, be ratified i believe, by the member states, by which time, some of the dead wood will have disappeared.

Negotiations as to brexit, will also be invariably affected by forthcoming elections in other EU countries, and any trade deals can't start until brexit is ratified.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2017, 08:49:44 PM
Saying you can negotiate a fast trade deal is one thing, delivering it is another.

Brexit has yet to be start.

The brexit negotiations have to, be ratified i believe, by the member states, by which time, some of the dead wood will have disappeared.

Negotiations as to brexit, will also be invariably affected by forthcoming elections in other EU countries, and any trade deals can't start until brexit is ratified.

Article 50 might not have been invoked yet Stephen but Brexit has well and truly begun, there is no going back now.   8((()*/

Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Japan will be next to do a deal. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 09:14:54 PM
Article 50 might not have been invoked yet Stephen but Brexit has well and truly begun, there is no going back now.   8((()*/

Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Japan will be next to do a deal.

Deals take a while, no matter the rhetoric. 4-6 years with America.

As I said , deals cannot be initiated until brexit is finalised.


I can buy goods from those countries already , in the UK John.

So what exactly will change ?


I've just watched Panorama. Quote interesting. Worth a watch.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2017, 09:30:57 PM
Deals take a while, no matter the rhetoric. 4-6 years with America.

As I said , deals cannot be initiated until brexit is finalised.


I can buy goods from those countries already , in the UK John.

So what exactly will change ?


I've just watched Panorama. Quote interesting. Worth a watch.

You do realise everything purchased from non EU countries is subject to an EU customs tariff?

Within the EU most goods are in free circulation and can be imported with minimal customs control, have no import duty or VAT to pay.

Imports from outside the EU are treated differently.

You must make an import declaration to customs generally, have to pay import duty and import VAT (plus VAT on import duty).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 09:33:10 PM
You do realise everything purchased from non EU countries is subject to an EU customs tariff?

Of course.

That will happen in reverse if we leave the single market.

I am well versed with Economics John.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2017, 09:38:22 PM
Of course.

That will happen in reverse if we leave the single market.

I am well versed with Economics John.

You don't really think all the European car manufacturers and especially the German ones will allow that do you?

You forget the EU needs us to continue to buy from them, not the other way round.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 16, 2017, 09:49:18 PM
You don't really think all the European car manufacturers and especially the German ones will allow that do you?

You forget the EU needs us to continue to buy from them, not the other way round.

We have been through all this before.

You also know full well how many of our exports go to the EU.

Brits also love the expensive German cars.

There's an old joke there, but it might be removed on here.

Have you heard the one, about what is the difference between  a hedgehog and a BMW ?  8**8:/:
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2017, 10:00:41 PM
We have been through all this before.

You also know full well how many of our exports go to the EU.

Brits also love the expensive German cars.

There's an old joke there, but it might be removed on here.

Have you heard the one, about what is the difference between  a hedgehog and a BMW ?  8**8:/:

As you well know the tide is from Europe so imposing any tariff would hurt the EU. There is very little which can't be sourced elsewhere in the world.  Once mans loss is another mans gain!
Anyway, if I need anything from the EU I just drive over the border.   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 16, 2017, 10:09:08 PM
Article 50 might not have been invoked yet Stephen but Brexit has well and truly begun, there is no going back now.   8((()*/

Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Japan will be next to do a deal.

Unless by the time Brexit has occurred they have done this Trans-Pacific Partnership Bloc thingy. Then we will be negotiating with a powerful group that may yet include the USA depending on how Donald feels about it.
It may yet turn out to be a free for all with a lot of protectionism going on.
"There I wuz" 1. In Texas in 1969. I could have bought a 353 Mustang with all the toys air con the lot for less than I could have bought a basic Mini 1000 over here. Unfortunately I couldn't afford the import duty into the UK. The Yanks are even worse than we were back then and who knows what we will be like when the EU fetters are removed.
"There I wuz" 2. I import a specific material on a small scale from NZ and pay 8% import duty on its arrival into the EU, which makes it viable just. As there are several UK firms producing similar materials I doubt the 8% will last after Brexit so I will have to look elsewhere. Back to the sucking of air over teeth and "cor no chief can't meet that spec., delivery or quality". Which prompted me to take up the NZ route in the first place.
There are plenty of legs left in this Brexit saga...... 8(>((
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 01:34:23 AM
Unless by the time Brexit has occurred they have done this Trans-Pacific Partnership Bloc thingy. Then we will be negotiating with a powerful group that may yet include the USA depending on how Donald feels about it.
It may yet turn out to be a free for all with a lot of protectionism going on.
"There I wuz" 1. In Texas in 1969. I could have bought a 353 Mustang with all the toys air con the lot for less than I could have bought a basic Mini 1000 over here. Unfortunately I couldn't afford the import duty into the UK. The Yanks are even worse than we were back then and who knows what we will be like when the EU fetters are removed.
"There I wuz" 2. I import a specific material on a small scale from NZ and pay 8% import duty on its arrival into the EU, which makes it viable just. As there are several UK firms producing similar materials I doubt the 8% will last after Brexit so I will have to look elsewhere. Back to the sucking of air over teeth and "cor no chief can't meet that spec., delivery or quality". Which prompted me to take up the NZ route in the first place.
There are plenty of legs left in this Brexit saga...... 8(>((

There certainly is and I am the first to agree but staying in the EU was never an option.  The rate at which the UK is taking in the world's waifs and strays could never be sustainable, we have to control who is allowed to come and settle here and the only way we are ever going to do that is by taking back control.  One only needs to look at London and the multicultural mess that it has become, not in my backyard...sorry.

And for those who are in the UK illegally they must be repatriated where possible.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 08:44:32 AM
There certainly is and I am the first to agree but staying in the EU was never an option.  The rate at which the UK is taking in the world's waifs and strays could never be sustainable, we have to control who is allowed to come and settle here and the only way we are ever going to do that is by taking back control.  One only needs to look at London and the multicultural mess that it has become, not in my backyard...sorry.

And for those who are in the UK illegally they must be repatriated where possible.

What are the numbers of these 'waifs' as you call them ?

...............and how do the numbers coming here compare to other countries ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 10:41:58 AM
Unless by the time Brexit has occurred they have done this Trans-Pacific Partnership Bloc thingy. Then we will be negotiating with a powerful group that may yet include the USA depending on how Donald feels about it.
It may yet turn out to be a free for all with a lot of protectionism going on.
"There I wuz" 1. In Texas in 1969. I could have bought a 353 Mustang with all the toys air con the lot for less than I could have bought a basic Mini 1000 over here. Unfortunately I couldn't afford the import duty into the UK. The Yanks are even worse than we were back then and who knows what we will be like when the EU fetters are removed.
"There I wuz" 2. I import a specific material on a small scale from NZ and pay 8% import duty on its arrival into the EU, which makes it viable just. As there are several UK firms producing similar materials I doubt the 8% will last after Brexit so I will have to look elsewhere. Back to the sucking of air over teeth and "cor no chief can't meet that spec., delivery or quality". Which prompted me to take up the NZ route in the first place.
There are plenty of legs left in this Brexit saga...... 8(>((

It's not just Brexit in isolation, we are now in the Brump era.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 10:52:35 AM
What are the numbers of these 'waifs' as you call them ?

...............and how do the numbers coming here compare to other countries ?

And what is meant by "waifs and strays". And where do they come from?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 10:57:52 AM
You don't really think all the European car manufacturers and especially the German ones will allow that do you?

You forget the EU needs us to continue to buy from them, not the other way round.

Who will British farmers export to and where will the subsidies come from?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 11:09:35 AM
Who will British farmers export to and where will the subsidies come from?

The UK already pays the EU money which is returned to British farmers as an annual single farm payment so the economics is very simple, we just cut out the middlemen.   I would add though that the system should be reviewed since the fatcat farmers are getting far too much of the cream while thousands of small farmers with heritages going back several generations are going to the wall.

As for exporting, the question doesn't arise as the UK is a net importer.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 11:10:46 AM
I notice that we're not supposed to refer to a "hard" Brexit any more. The new term appears to be "clean".

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 11:14:14 AM
I notice that we're not supposed to refer to a "hard" Brexit any more. The new term appears to be "clean".

 @)(++(*

Yes, a clean cut, a new beginning.  Someone asked about waifs and strays a bit back.  There is estimated to be millions of illegals living in and around London and the South East, time they were dealt with and dealt with efficiently.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 11:20:47 AM
And what is meant by "waifs and strays". And where do they come from?

I was wondering that Carana.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 11:30:33 AM
The UK already pays the EU money which is returned to British farmers as an annual single farm payment so the economics is very simple, we just cut out the middlemen.   As for exporting, the question doesn't arise as the UK is a net importer.

Do you disagree with this article by Farmers' Insight, John?

EU trade implications

One of the biggest unknowns for UK farming is what sort of trading arrangements will be put in place after we leave the Single Market, with its 500 million consumers and free movement of goods and people.

    The UK currently has free access, without tariffs or border controls, to an EU market of 500 million people
    The UK exports nearly £11 billion of food, drink and animal feed products to the EU, 60 per cent of total exports
    About £26.5bn comes the other way
    38 per cent of UK lamb goes to the EU, with France accounting for nearly 60 per cent of exports
    93 per cent of beef exports and 92 per cent of sheepmeat exports go to the EU


Everything depends on the nature of any agreement the UK negotiates with the EU. This will determine what sort of tariffs, if any, are put in place on trade both ways between the UK and the EU and what other conditions are attached, such as the need for regulatory compliance.

https://www.fginsight.com/vip/vip/brexit-vote---what-are-the-implications-for-uk-farming-13146

More pondering here:
https://www.fginsight.com/news/news/brexit-briefing-what-are-the-trade-implications-for-farmers-of-leaving-the-eu-10459
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 11:34:22 AM
Yes, a clean cut, a new beginning.  Someone asked about waifs and strays a bit back.  There is estimated to be millions of illegals living in and around London and the South East, time they were dealt with and dealt with efficiently.

Where do these "illegals" come from?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 11:39:08 AM
Do you disagree with this article by Farmers' Insight, John?
https://www.fginsight.com/vip/vip/brexit-vote---what-are-the-implications-for-uk-farming-13146

The article asks many questions but provides little answers.  There is no doubt the UK farming industry will have to rise to the challenge, paying 'lazy' farmers £100 an acre every year simply to do nothing with their land was a crazy EU incentive.  British farmers have done their bit in the past and will do so again.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 11:39:41 AM
Where do these "illegals" come from?

All over the world, the vast majority being economic migrants and overstayers.  Time we had a Borders Agency fit for purpose.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 11:49:31 AM
All over the world, the vast majority being economic migrants and overstayers.  Time we had a Borders Agency fit for purpose.

What constitutes "illegal" and how many of those are EU citizens?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 01:40:49 PM
Yes, a clean cut, a new beginning.  Someone asked about waifs and strays a bit back.  There is estimated to be millions of illegals living in and around London and the South East, time they were dealt with and dealt with efficiently.
Could we have a cite for that please. Given that the population of the South East of England is circa 10 million, then millions of illegals would seem to indicate that at a minimum one on in every 5 people in the South East of England is here illegally.  Seriously?!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2017, 03:07:56 PM
The article asks many questions but provides little answers.  There is no doubt the UK farming industry will have to rise to the challenge, paying 'lazy' farmers £100 an acre every year simply to do nothing with their land was a crazy EU incentive.  British farmers have done their bit in the past and will do so again.

Who has the answers, then?

In the event of tariffs (or other penalties), the price of EU imports of UK farm-related produce / products *may* be offset by the lower pound.

However, as you pointed out, John, the UK is a net importer in the food sector.

So... doesn't that somewhat turn the situation on its head?

How will the UK food companies (and ultimately consumers) deal with higher import costs due to the pound and the potential extra cost of levies?

And will the situation be less or more expensive for UK food-based manufacturers who need to import raw ingredients or whatever else in order to export the final product?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 17, 2017, 04:32:45 PM
Who will British farmers export to and where will the subsidies come from?

Where they have always come from.
Historically the worst of it is rooted in nearly starving to death in the Second World War. There is a case to argue it started in the Naopleonic Wars but let's leave that for now. Read "Theft of the Countryside" for detail on subsidies pre "Common Market".

Anyway out on the edge of The Fen potato growers will no longer be able to use cheap European labour to dig potatoes*. English labour will not do it for reasons they will not do it now. The Murphy's, Bonzers, Spuds, tubers call 'em what you will, then remain underground to rot. The growers say "'ere Mr DEFRA ,or whatever his name is now, due to circumstances beyond our control we have lost our profits giss a subsidy to cover it". Certainly says Mr DEFRA it's not my money anyway. In days gone by Gentleman Jim owned the farm but nowadays it is large corporations and pension funds.............. Good innit  ?{)(**. First law of economics "To him that hath shall be given"
Speaking of digging potatoes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7eHYSFu1kE
as banned by The BBC!.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 07:01:59 PM
Could we have a cite for that please. Given that the population of the South East of England is circa 10 million, then millions of illegals would seem to indicate that at a minimum one on in every 5 people in the South East of England is here illegally.  Seriously?!

Its not too hard to Google it Alfie. Try London millions illegals.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 07:05:29 PM
What constitutes "illegal" and how many of those are EU citizens?

EU citizens are entitled to live and work in the UK.   An 'illegal' is simply someone who has entered the country illegally, has outstayed their welcome or been denied citizenship.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 07:09:06 PM
Who has the answers, then?

In the event of tariffs (or other penalties), the price of EU imports of UK farm-related produce / products *may* be offset by the lower pound.

However, as you pointed out, John, the UK is a net importer in the food sector.

So... doesn't that somewhat turn the situation on its head?

How will the UK food companies (and ultimately consumers) deal with higher import costs due to the pound and the potential extra cost of levies?

And will the situation be less or more expensive for UK food-based manufacturers who need to import raw ingredients or whatever else in order to export the final product?

I think you should wait and see Carana, nobody knows for sure how it will all play out but one thing is for sure, it's a price worth paying if we can control our own destiny,
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 07:11:29 PM
I think you should wait and see Carana, nobody knows for sure how it will all play out but one thing is for sure, it's a price worth paying if we can control our own destiny,

We live on one planet, with ever diminishing resources.

To think you can control your own destiny is unrealistic.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 07:11:44 PM
Where they have always come from.
Historically the worst of it is rooted in nearly starving to death in the Second World War. There is a case to argue it started in the Naopleonic Wars but let's leave that for now. Read "Theft of the Countryside" for detail on subsidies pre "Common Market".

Anyway out on the edge of The Fen potato growers will no longer be able to use cheap European labour to dig potatoes*. English labour will not do it for reasons they will not do it now. The Murphy's, Bonzers, Spuds, tubers call 'em what you will, then remain underground to rot. The growers say "'ere Mr DEFRA ,or whatever his name is now, due to circumstances beyond our control we have lost our profits giss a subsidy to cover it". Certainly says Mr DEFRA it's not my money anyway. In days gone by Gentleman Jim owned the farm but nowadays it is large corporations and pension funds.............. Good innit  ?{)(**. First law of economics "To him that hath shall be given"
Speaking of digging potatoes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7eHYSFu1kE
as banned by The BBC!.

We use a machine to harvest the potatoe crop these days Alice, only needs a driver and two lads on the back checking the conveyor.  I agree though there are several crops which are labour intensive but Theresa has already ordained that if there is a need for seasonal Eastern European workers to come into the country temporarily so be it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 17, 2017, 07:17:01 PM
We live on one planet, with ever diminishing resources.

To think you can control your own destiny is unrealistic.

Well the majority have certainly started to determine their destiny when they voted to kick out the EU.   @)(++(*  8((()*/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 07:27:28 PM

Well the majority have certainly started to determine their destiny when they voted to kick out the EU.   @)(++(*  8((()*/

No John.

37% of the electorate.

In fact , neither side had a majority in the referendum.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 17, 2017, 07:37:07 PM
We use a machine to harvest the potatoe crop these days Alice, only needs a driver and two lads on the back checking the conveyor. I agree though there are several crops which are labour intensive but Theresa has already ordained that if there is a need for seasonal Eastern European workers to come into the country temporarily so be it.

With a bloody great turning circle that needs hedgerows and copses to be cut down, for which cutting down a subsidy will be paid no doubt !!!!! ( I suppose baling sledges are a thing of the past too ?).
I guess my point is that the farming lobby wields alot of power at Westminster.

"You'll never see a farmer on a bike"...............old East Anglian proverb  8(0(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alfie on January 17, 2017, 08:00:56 PM
We use a machine to harvest the potatoe crop these days Alice, only needs a driver and two lads on the back checking the conveyor.  I agree though there are several crops which are labour intensive but Theresa has already ordained that if there is a need for seasonal Eastern European workers to come into the country temporarily so be it.
No "ifs" about it - there IS a need for EU labour to harvest crops, unless you think that somehow fit young British born subjects can be incentivized to move to Lincolnshire in their tens of thousands to pull carrots etc for a few months every year?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 08:32:09 PM
No "ifs" about it - there IS a need for EU labour to harvest crops, unless you think that somehow fit young British born subjects can be incentivized to move to Lincolnshire in their tens of thousands to pull carrots etc for a few months every year?

..and it isn't just people to work on the farms.

Employers want skilled people, and there is a lack of them in the UK.

May seems to live in a world of make believe.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 17, 2017, 09:01:03 PM
Having looked through May's speech.

Brexit but not really.

She won't satisfy either side.

Just a pig's ear of a speech.

Thanks Cameron.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on January 25, 2017, 11:37:31 AM
I see there has been an arrest of 50 year old man who made 'threats' to Gina Miller.

Reported on LBC Radio.

He wasn't the only one.


I dare say this moron also supports Trump.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 12, 2017, 02:15:47 PM
With a bloody great turning circle that needs hedgerows and copses to be cut down, for which cutting down a subsidy will be paid no doubt !!!!! ( I suppose baling sledges are a thing of the past too ?).
I guess my point is that the farming lobby wields alot of power at Westminster.

"You'll never see a farmer on a bike"...............old East Anglian proverb  8(0(*

Indeed ALice. Farmers are large corporate land owning gentry now who grab most in subsidies- very few small holdings.  Also many celebs have tax havens to plant and grow trees in Scotland. WTF we don't need anymore laylandi. Apparently this is to stop Global warming ..sN.....s.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 07, 2017, 11:29:08 AM
Worth a read...


Britons living in the EU face Brexit backlash, leaked paper warns
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/13/uk-treatment-of-eu-nationals-could-lead-to-backlash-against-britons-living-in-the-eu
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: stephen25000 on December 14, 2017, 09:35:15 PM
I see the Tory rebels have now bern receiving veiled death threats .

Reported in the Guardian.

Revealing the mind sets of certain parties, though I am not surprised.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on July 09, 2018, 08:38:01 AM
Democracy in this country is normally limited to voting every few years for a candidate to represent us in Parliament. Once elected we have no control over what the candidate does during his or her time there. Brexit is different. Thanks to David Cameron we were asked for our opinion and we gave it.

The government appear to be very reluctant to listen, however. It's strange how pro-democracy politicians are until democracy delivers something they don't agree with (we saw a similar rejection of the democratic process when Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party).

Despite May's oft repeated 'Brexit means Brexit' it seems that when it comes to the crunch it doesn't. Will she and her party survive this apparent rejection of the declared will of the people?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 09, 2018, 08:59:51 PM
Democracy in this country is normally limited to voting every few years for a candidate to represent us in Parliament. Once elected we have no control over what the candidate does during his or her time there. Brexit is different. Thanks to David Cameron we were asked for our opinion and we gave it.

The government appear to be very reluctant to listen, however. It's strange how pro-democracy politicians are until democracy delivers something they don't agree with (we saw a similar rejection of the democratic process when Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party).

Despite May's oft repeated 'Brexit means Brexit' it seems that when it comes to the crunch it doesn't. Will she and her party survive this apparent rejection of the declared will of the people?
What does Brexit mean, actually?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on July 09, 2018, 09:13:24 PM
Britain Exit?   I have to say the politicians of all colours are making a complete hash of it. It is hard to know what any of them stand for anymore - except power for themselves.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 09, 2018, 08:47:04 PM
Still running around like headless chickens as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on October 19, 2018, 08:06:19 AM
An analogy of Brexit involving eggs, cake and omelette. lol

https://garybainbridge.com/2018/10/10/column-october-11-2018/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 19, 2018, 03:01:29 PM
Still running around like headless chickens as far as I can see.

Afraid to tell the truth more like.

Wrt to the leave campaigners I would paraphrase Stokely Carmichael .... "The punks were lying, period".
Unfortunately my generation, which should not have been allowed to vote on the topic anyway, screwed it up by swallowing a load of jingoistic cobblers hook line sinker and half way down the bleedin' rod.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on October 27, 2018, 05:25:12 AM
Afraid to tell the truth more like.

Wrt to the leave campaigners I would paraphrase Stokely Carmichael .... "The punks were lying, period".
Unfortunately my generation, which should not have been allowed to vote on the topic anyway, screwed it up by swallowing a load of jingoistic cobblers hook line sinker and half way down the bleedin' rod.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1053662098574716929
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 10, 2018, 07:02:11 PM
And now BoJo's brother [Name removed]o has resigned.

https://news.sky.com/story/jo-johnsons-has-set-out-his-reasons-for-resigning-in-his-own-words-11549426
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 10, 2018, 07:08:53 PM
"In these circumstances, we must ask what we are achieving. William Hague once described the goal of Conservative policy as being "in Europe, but not run by Europe". The government's proposals will see us out of Europe, yet run by Europe, bound by rules which we will have lost a hand in shaping." - Jo Johnson.

I've never understood how leaving the EU was supposed to allow the UK to "get back control". Total mystery to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Jean-Pierre on November 18, 2018, 02:14:16 PM
Mystery to me too.  I do suspect that others are cottoning on though.  In the unlikely event of someone having the balls to have a ‘let’s chevk the current mood of the meeting’ poll I think there may be a few disappointed Brexit enthusiasts. 

Some will be incandescent with rage (5%) some will think ‘quoi?’ And get on with life (30%) and the rest will breathe a huge collective sigh of relief. 

Final though have you noticed the more mouthy say ‘if we don’t get our Brexit, there will be riots’.  But never ‘I will riot’. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 09:43:32 AM
Mystery to me too.  I do suspect that others are cottoning on though.  In the unlikely event of someone having the balls to have a ‘let’s chevk the current mood of the meeting’ poll I think there may be a few disappointed Brexit enthusiasts. 

Some will be incandescent with rage (5%) some will think ‘quoi?’ And get on with life (30%) and the rest will breathe a huge collective sigh of relief. 

Final though have you noticed the more mouthy say ‘if we don’t get our Brexit, there will be riots’.  But never ‘I will riot’.

What irritates me is when people (including politicians and even journalists who should know better) insist that the majority of UK citizens voted to leave.

No, they didn't.

What IS true is that slightly more voted to leave than those who voted to remain: 51.9% (17,410,742 ) leave v 48.9% (16,141,241) remain.

But that's not the same thing.

The turnout was 72.2% out of an electorate of 46,501,241. To simply that for my tiny calculator: 17.4 / 46.5 = 37.4%.

I.e. only 37.4% of registered voters voted for Leave. Hardly a majority of UK citizens (and if the expats who weren't even allowed to vote could have done, I find it likely that the true percentage would have been even lower).

https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 03:10:09 PM
Quiz time.

Who said (and try not to cheat):

1. “This is a very sad place to be,” X told Sky News. “But unfortunately, the future of the country and of our relationship with Europe is at stake. This deal gives us no voice, no votes, no MEPs, no commissioner.”

I've got lots of these...


























Answer:

"Arch-Brexiteer" Nadine Dorries
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1063790996859830272



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 03:32:43 PM
Quiz question no 2

Which brain-child said:

“I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing."
















Answer: Dominic Raab, the latest former Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5m7_JrLNDY
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 04:01:01 PM
No. 3

Which MP said this:

'I do have the right to go over to Ireland and I believe that I can ask for a passport. Can't I?'















Answer: Andrew Bridgen, member of the ERG "think tank".

https://www.irishpost.com/news/everyone-in-england-is-entitled-to-an-irish-passport-british-mp-displays-staggering-ignorance-over-ireland-in-radio-interview-160840


Reality is just a little more restricted than that:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 05:25:26 PM
No 4 (?)

Who said:

"Leaving the European Union is the most fantastic opportunity for the United Kingdom. It means we can have the opportunity of setting lower tariffs, cheaper food, clothing and footwear, helping the least well-off in our society... "















Jacob Rees-Mogg (another ERG member).

Clip on here: https://news.sky.com/story/french-minister-says-brexit-comes-at-exorbitant-price-as-he-calls-uk-mps-liars-11555807


Question: How can an isolated country get better trade deals than the combined bargaining power of the largest trading bloc?

Lower tariffs... with whom, exactly?

Trade between EU members? Nope.

Better deals that the EU trade agreements already concluded or in the process of ratification with non-EU countries?

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2012/june/tradoc_149622.pdf


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 22, 2018, 07:09:37 PM
Someone on Twitter seems to be compiling the "famous last quotes" much faster.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1065648448362434560.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on November 22, 2018, 10:29:56 PM
"In these circumstances, we must ask what we are achieving. William Hague once described the goal of Conservative policy as being "in Europe, but not run by Europe". The government's proposals will see us out of Europe, yet run by Europe, bound by rules which we will have lost a hand in shaping." - Jo Johnson.

I've never understood how leaving the EU was supposed to allow the UK to "get back control". Total mystery to me.

On March 28th 2019 if you wish to flog a hairdryer into the EU it will have to comply with the EU Electrogmatic Compatibility Directive. On April 1st 2019  if you wish to flog the same hairdryer into the EU it will have to comply with the EU Electrogmatic Compatibility Directive,so who is controlling what?........ *%87
On March 28th 2019 the UK observes EU laws. On April 1st 2019 the UK will observe EU laws because we don't have any of our own [see Repeal Act 2017] so who is controlling what?

Chris Grayling reckons we can be self sufficient in food by digging up golf courses and growing veg on them.
Some one should tell him GB has not been self sufficient in food since pre Napoleonic wars.

Our politicians clearly do not know whether they are punched, bored, drilled or countersunk in a certain area.

ETA."for Electrogmatic read Electromagnetic"
But I do like the idea of Trogmatic !
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 23, 2018, 12:53:45 PM
On March 28th 2019 if you wish to flog a hairdryer into the EU it will have to comply with the EU Electrogmatic Compatibility Directive. On April 1st 2019  if you wish to flog the same hairdryer into the EU it will have to comply with the EU Electrogmatic Compatibility Directive,so who is controlling what?........ *%87
On March 28th 2019 the UK observes EU laws. On April 1st 2019 the UK will observe EU laws because we don't have any of our own [see Repeal Act 2017] so who is controlling what?

Chris Grayling reckons we can be self sufficient in food by digging up golf courses and growing veg on them.
Some one should tell him GB has not been self sufficient in food since pre Napoleonic wars.

Our politicians clearly do not know whether they are punched, bored, drilled or countersunk in a certain area.

Ah, but Owen Paterson has it all sussed:

"Really positive discussions on the future of UK/Oklahoma trade relationship. Sadly impossible to implement with the Draft Withdrawal Agreement as UK will not control its own tariffs or regulatory environment"

https://twitter.com/OwenPaterson/status/1063860778242109441

Interesting picture of inspecting "local wheat varieties" during the trip:

https://twitter.com/OwenPaterson/status/1063871163120656384


I did have an extract of a document about US wishes for - what I understood to mean - looser regulations and labelling. I'll add link if I come across it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 24, 2018, 11:58:47 AM
Can anyone explain to me how Paterson could possibly envisage an international trade agreement between the UK and.... Oklahoma?

Has it suddenly become an independent nation with WTO status in total secrecy? lol
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 26, 2018, 06:36:49 PM
No, I thought not.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on November 26, 2018, 06:42:06 PM
I think you should wait and see Carana, nobody knows for sure how it will all play out but one thing is for sure, it's a price worth paying if we can control our own destiny,

What does that actually mean, John?

An FTA with a country not within the EU, nor with any of the 60+ countries with which treaties/agrrements have already been established, or are in the process of of achieving agreement, with lower standards for farming animal welfare?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 02, 2018, 03:04:32 PM
For anyone confused about which countries belong to the EU, the EEA, EFTA or simply a customs union, here's a handy diagram.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-12/u-s-china-10-other-countries-seek-brexit-assurances-at-wto
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 04, 2018, 09:45:46 AM
An extract of Daniel Hannan's speech to the Atlas Network...

https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1068855490577338368

Something about the triumph of the capitalist spirit was making chicken meat accessible for the masses.

US chlorinated chicken, perchance?

A bit of background:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/04/post-brexit-free-trade-deal-us-rightwing-thinktanks?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet




Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 14, 2018, 03:35:49 PM
Daniel Hannan's "vision" of post-Brexit.
https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

Dystopia doesn't even describe it, IMO.

Incidentally, he looks amazingly like this Daniel Hannan:

Daniel Hannan's MEP group told to repay €535,000 in EU funds
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/13/daniel-hannan-mep-group-told-to-repay-half-a-million-in-eu-funds
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 15, 2018, 12:09:38 AM
Who was Rees-Mogg fronting for?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 15, 2018, 03:18:22 AM
Who was Rees-Mogg fronting for?

Interesting question. Not sure he's actually fronting for anyone - he might just be genuinely bonkers.

"Jacob Rees-Mogg has offered an optimistic prediction of how long we might have to wait see see the benefits of Brexit: 50 years."

https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a22513246/jacob-rees-mogg-claims-we-might-not-see-benefits-of-brexit-for-50-years/

https://www.desmogblog.com/2018/07/23/mapped-whistleblower-accuses-nine-organisations-colluding-over-hard-brexit

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence/revealed-these-70-tory-mps-support-the-hard-brexit-group?utm_term=.rlYbW76Aw#.sqXaNqMbV


ETA
Hmm, I'd forgotten about his links to IEA.
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/12/01/institute-of-economic-affairs-charity-commission-brexit/

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-adam-ramsay/revealed-how-uk-s-powerful-right-wing-think-tanks-and-conse#

http://www.brexitshambles.com/brexit-scam-we-need-to-talk-about-tufton-street/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-think-tanks-carrying-out-independent-research-to-support-brexit-have-close-links-to-a6866011.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 15, 2018, 03:51:20 AM
Worth a read, IMO.

Sir Ivan Rogers on Brexit

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 15, 2018, 01:36:07 PM
Worth a read, IMO.

Sir Ivan Rogers on Brexit

https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2018/12/13/full-speech-sir-ivan-rogers-on-brexit/

A damning indictment of our politicians and all correct in my opinion. No-one is prepared to be honest with the people and it's a disgrace.

It sounds to me as if the UK has already lost any chance of emerging from these negotiations without a severe trouncing by the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 15, 2018, 03:25:03 PM
A damning indictment of our politicians and all correct in my opinion. No-one is prepared to be honest with the people and it's a disgrace.

It sounds to me as if the UK has already lost any chance of emerging from these negotiations without a severe trouncing by the EU.

I agree.

If we put aside the bluff, there are really only 3 options (on the table or not).

1. No deal (I suppose I could dig out the "technical notices" if anyone is really interested in Project Reality in that event). Spoiler: they amount to what used to be branded as "Project Fear".

2. May's deal - a kind of half-way house that may or may not involve a customs union, and clamps down on freedom of movement between EU nations... and that goes both ways.

A most bizarre stipulation is the requirement for 5 continuous years of "CSI" coverage - which no one seems to have heard of. Normally, you paid into your state of residence or into your state of origin and medical bills are reimbursed to the host country.

Applying for settled status if you've been an Armed Forces spouse moving around seems even more complicated.


None of the Canada, Norway, Switzerland variations come without a massive cost.

All of the above have a negative economic impact. It's just that May's deal is less detrimental than the other variations.

3. Status quo (Remain) Not on the cards yet. But I'd be grateful if someone could explain how any of these Brexit "solutions" ranging from bad to catastrophic would provide the UK with a) a rosier future in general and b) an answer to the underlying gripes in the first place?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 15, 2018, 03:35:48 PM
A damning indictment of our politicians and all correct in my opinion. No-one is prepared to be honest with the people and it's a disgrace.

It sounds to me as if the UK has already lost any chance of emerging from these negotiations without a severe trouncing by the EU.

Not sure. Seemingly a court case has been won in the CJEU (irony klaxon) and the UK Parliament can revoke A50 uniltaterally, which obviates all 27 EU members needing to agree and poking their favourite stick in the way at the last minute.

No one seems to agree on what Brexit even meant. IMO, the solution is to remain, until such time as people can actually be fully informed of what's at stake. In the meantime, the UK would retain its voices at the table to bring about change from within on points of disagreemennt.

IMO, there are far more disadvantages to leaving now and trying to get back in later (rebate, euro, Shengen, various other opt-outs) than remaining now and working out a viable exit some time down the road.

If I had a choice, I wouldn't let à 3-year-old politician pack my parachute.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 16, 2018, 03:18:20 PM
Not sure. Seemingly a court case has been won in the CJEU (irony klaxon) and the UK Parliament can revoke A50 uniltaterally, which obviates all 27 EU members needing to agree and poking their favourite stick in the way at the last minute.

No one seems to agree on what Brexit even meant. IMO, the solution is to remain, until such time as people can actually be fully informed of what's at stake. In the meantime, the UK would retain its voices at the table to bring about change from within on points of disagreemennt.

IMO, there are far more disadvantages to leaving now and trying to get back in later (rebate, euro, Shengen, various other opt-outs) than remaining now and working out a viable exit some time down the road.

If I had a choice, I wouldn't let à 3-year-old politician pack my parachute.

I think a simple question was asked and a simple answer was given. If the politicians knew it wasn't a simple question they shouldn't have asked it, but they did and their job is simple; leave.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 16, 2018, 05:40:42 PM
I think a simple question was asked and a simple answer was given. If the politicians knew it wasn't a simple question they shouldn't have asked it, but they did and their job is simple; leave.

https://youtu.be/svwslRDTyzU
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 16, 2018, 06:40:33 PM
Not sure. Seemingly a court case has been won in the CJEU (irony klaxon) and the UK Parliament can revoke A50 uniltaterally, which obviates all 27 EU members needing to agree and poking their favourite stick in the way at the last minute.

No one seems to agree on what Brexit even meant. IMO, the solution is to remain, until such time as people can actually be fully informed of what's at stake. In the meantime, the UK would retain its voices at the table to bring about change from within on points of disagreemennt.

IMO, there are far more disadvantages to leaving now and trying to get back in later (rebate, euro, Shengen, various other opt-outs) than remaining now and working out a viable exit some time down the road.

If I had a choice, I wouldn't let à 3-year-old politician pack my parachute.

Brexit meant whatever the particular beholder chose it to mean as no politician ever defined it properly. So each voter voted for his interpretation of Brexit from what he was being told; jingoism of the worst kind, promulgated by Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and snake in the grass Michael Gove, which bore no relationship to reality.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 16, 2018, 08:49:25 PM
Brexit meant whatever the particular beholder chose it to mean as no politician ever defined it properly. So each voter voted for his interpretation of Brexit from what he was being told; jingoism of the worst kind, promulgated by Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and snake in the grass Michael Gove, which bore no relationship to reality.

Agree. I'd add David Davis, Raab, Paterson and a few others who clearly don't have the foggiest idea of how anything actually works. Worse: few interviewers challenge them. Unless people have taken time to do some independent homework - which relatively few people do - there's no way for people to know what's true or not.

And Corbyn seems to be up in cloud cuckoo-land as well.

Have you been following the Cambridge Analytica shenanigans? Scary.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 17, 2018, 08:59:05 AM
The people didn't vote for or against Brexit in my opinion. They voted to stay in the EU or to leave the EU. The leavers won. Now the politicians and various others are panicking because they either don't want to leave or don't know what to do next if we do leave. It's their mess and they need to stop arguing and concentrate on doing their jobs.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 17, 2018, 11:16:53 AM
If the UK leaves the EU on 29th March 2019 guidelines are emerging.

Holidays; package holidays are being recommended. Customers will be recompensed if the flight doesn't take place. If someone has booked their hotel/car hire separately they will not be recompensed by the airline if the flight isn't delivered.

Insurance; apparently some people rely on their right to be treated in the EU if they have existing medical conditions or fall ill. They can't rely on this continuing, so will need to be insured.

Passports; The EU passport will no longer be accepted, so a British passport with any visas necessary should be obtained. The fast track entry for EU citizens will not be available. Those with an Irish passport will be OK. The best position is for those with both British and Irish passports. They can leave the UK via fast track using their British passports, and enter an EU country via the fast track channel using their Irish passports.

Driving; an international driving licence will be needed. There are two kinds and people will need one or both depending on which countries they plan to visit.

Mobile phones; cheap roaming may or may not continue; check with your provider.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2018, 11:25:22 AM
I've heard of numerous reasons for leaving, but perhaps this one takes the, erm, socket.

The James O’Brien Caller Who Voted Brexit Because Of Three-Pin Plugs

17 December 2018, 11:02
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-caller-voted-brexit-three-pin-plugs/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2018, 12:28:45 PM
I'm aware that James O'Brien is somewhat abrasive, which I find a shame. However, on substance, I find him accurate so far.


'Which EU Law Are You Most Looking Forward To Losing?'
11 October 2016, 14:03 | Updated: 12 October 2016, 07:28
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/which-eu-law-are-you-looking-forward-to-losing/

Brexiteer Tells James O'Brien He'd Be Happy If His House Price Drops By 30%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2-q6TZVbjQ&t=41s

James O’Brien Scolds Caller Who Says Microchipping People Could Solve Irish Border
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NRNzFcoA2U


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsyKP6mW2iA


Meanwhile...

James O'Brien's Caller Reminds Brexiteers Why Good Friday Agreement Is So Vital - Brexit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE95nEkM_nA

Trans-European road haulier's view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y8qUlQHgC4
(He has since announced he's moving to Dublin to save his business).


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2018, 01:24:21 PM
Another ERG UK politician (Andrew Bridgen this time) who seems to think any UK citizen can waltz into Ireland and automatically claim the right to a passport and thus remain a citizen of an EU country.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ9WrGKoFJU

No, you can't, dear, as a 5-minute google would have shown the restrictions on that "brainwave".

https://www.dfa.ie/irelanduk-citizenshipandpassports/

It's not just that they spout total gibberish most of the time, it's also that TV hosts rarely seem to challenge them with that increasingly rare commodity formerly known as fact.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2018, 04:43:50 PM
I've just discovered on Sky what they supposedly mean by  a "managed no deal".

"Managed no deal
Involves reverting to WTO rules with a series of mini-deals struck to mitigate the biggest risks."


Seriously?

What planet are they on?  *%87
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on December 18, 2018, 01:01:09 AM
Does anyone know whether Nigel Farage ever had a proper & workable Brexit plan & if so, why he has failed to produce it in the months since we voted?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 18, 2018, 01:02:05 AM
I don't much care why people voted to leave the EU. I'm sure people vote in General Elections for all kinds of strange reasons too.

When politicians show the depth of their ignorance that's more worrying because they have more power over us. There are 650 of them and their decisions affect the lives of 66 million others. The English in particular are at their mercy because they have no Assembly like the Scots and Welsh.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 18, 2018, 10:59:26 AM
Does anyone know whether Nigel Farage ever had a proper & workable Brexit plan & if so, why he has failed to produce it in the months since we voted?

Not as far as I know, Misty. I've never heard him come up with anything beyond soundbites of "taking back" sovereignty / control. Empty rhetoric.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 18, 2018, 02:45:09 PM
So the government is concentrating on planning for a no deal exit now. It includes making 3,500 military personnel available 'to be deployed if needed by any government departments'. Are they expecting attacks on Government departments? By whom? Enraged remainers? Perhaps they think out borders will be overrun by people desperate to get in or out on 28th March? Do they expect a collapse in food deliveries to shops, causing rioting?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46600850
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 18, 2018, 04:49:38 PM
Hard to tell.


Matt Hancock has said he's become the largest buyer of fridges in the world (to stockpile medicine).
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/matt-hancock-uk-buy-fridges-stockpile-drugs-brexit-no-deal/


They seem to be stockpiling for 6 weeks... but then what?

There are still the Johnny-come-latelies who seem to think there's time to negotiate some last-minute half-baked new plan with the EU.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 18, 2018, 05:29:10 PM
So the government is concentrating on planning for a no deal exit now. It includes making 3,500 military personnel available 'to be deployed if needed by any government departments'. Are they expecting attacks on Government departments? By whom? Enraged remainers? Perhaps they think out borders will be overrun by people desperate to get in or out on 28th March? Do they expect a collapse in food deliveries to shops, causing rioting?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46600850
It’s called planning ahead for any eventuality, quite sensible I would have thought seeing as how no obe really has a clue what will happen come 1st April.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2018, 08:05:44 AM
We have seen the panic by UK businesses at the prospect of a no deal exit but it's a two way street. European businesses will also suffer.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/09/a-hard-brexit-could-halve-eu-exports-to-britain-german-study-claims.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 19, 2018, 09:48:35 AM
Yes, the EU will suffer as well, but not as much as the UK.

Incidentally, Pascal Lamy, the former WTO chief, famously said that leaving the EU was going to be like taking an egg out of an omelette. He also said, more recently, that if the UK left on WTO terms, it would be like going from 1st division to 4th.

https://twitter.com/rjbarfield1/status/1071423059247161344
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 19, 2018, 09:53:33 AM
I found this quite amusing, but sadly accurate...

https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1074965545966071808
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2018, 11:38:26 AM
Yes, the EU will suffer as well, but not as much as the UK.

Incidentally, Pascal Lamy, the former WTO chief, famously said that leaving the EU was going to be like taking an egg out of an omelette. He also said, more recently, that if the UK left on WTO terms, it would be like going from 1st division to 4th.

https://twitter.com/rjbarfield1/status/1071423059247161344

We have been paying around £9 billion net per year membership fees to the EU.
Even if we help businesses out with around 5 billion Euros in tariffs we would still be approx. £4.5 billion better off each year. As that is roughly what we get from the EU in grants, we could use that to replace them,

EU countries would have to increase their membership fees to cover the loss of our contribution and they would have to pay tariffs too if they wanted to continue to sell to the UK. Germany, as the largest contributor too the EU budget and a large exporter to the UK would be particularly affected.

It's by no means certain that the UK would suffer more in my opinion.


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 19, 2018, 05:44:51 PM
We have been paying around £9 billion net per year membership fees to the EU.
Even if we help businesses out with around 5 billion Euros in tariffs we would still be approx. £4.5 billion better off each year. As that is roughly what we get from the EU in grants, we could use that to replace them,

EU countries would have to increase their membership fees to cover the loss of our contribution and they would have to pay tariffs too if they wanted to continue to sell to the UK. Germany, as the largest contributor too the EU budget and a large exporter to the UK would be particularly affected.

It's by no means certain that the UK would suffer more in my opinion.
Is this one of those occasions when you don’t defer to the experts?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2018, 07:23:40 PM
Is this one of those occasions when you don’t defer to the experts?

If you want to debate my opinion feel free. If you just want to score cheap points forget it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 19, 2018, 07:25:54 PM
If you want to debate my opinion feel free. If you just want to score cheap points forget it.
Just highlighting your inconsistent approach to expert opinion.   Tell us why you know better than those experts who predict serious economic damage following a no deal Brexit then.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2018, 07:59:09 PM
Just highlighting your inconsistent approach to expert opinion.   Tell us why you know better than those experts who predict serious economic damage following a no deal Brexit then.

What 'serious economic damage'? Please be more specific and we'll debate the details if you wish.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 19, 2018, 08:14:18 PM
What 'serious economic damage'? Please be more specific and we'll debate the details if you wish.
I’m sure you’re already  only too aware of this...
https://www.politico.eu/article/how-no-deal-brexit-would-hit-uk-economy/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 19, 2018, 10:35:30 PM
I’m sure you’re already  only too aware of this...
https://www.politico.eu/article/how-no-deal-brexit-would-hit-uk-economy/

Everything in your article is opinion by "City Experts" so not exactly neutral observers. The text is littered with suggest" "expect" "could be" "likely" and "probably". Where are the facts? In my opinion they just don't know, so they're guessing.

My guess is they might be surprised when the world keeps turning, imports continue to arrive, exports continue to leave and people who already live here fill the vacancies that companies seem to think only EU immigrants will fill. It might cost them a little more in wages, but I'm sure they'd rather pay a decent wage than exploit people.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 20, 2018, 12:02:44 AM
Everything in your article is opinion by "City Experts" so not exactly neutral observers. The text is littered with suggest" "expect" "could be" "likely" and "probably". Where are the facts? In my opinion they just don't know, so they're guessing.

My guess is they might be surprised when the world keeps turning, imports continue to arrive, exports continue to leave and people who already live here fill the vacancies that companies seem to think only EU immigrants will fill. It might cost them a little more in wages, but I'm sure they'd rather pay a decent wage than exploit people.
Damn those city experts - we’ve had quie enough of experts and their stupid opinions oh, and f..k business while we’re at it.  Yes, it’s all going to be happy days when we leave with no deal, course it will!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 06:52:46 AM
Damn those city experts - we’ve had quie enough of experts and their stupid opinions oh, and f..k business while we’re at it.  Yes, it’s all going to be happy days when we leave with no deal, course it will!

Instead of getting your underwear in a twist, find some facts. Rumours abound, but no-one is forecasting what will happen, just what they fear mught happen. If the word 'might' is in there then 'might not' is also possible.

A fall in the value of the pound is mentioned. Is that an unmitigated disaster? No it isn't, actually, there are benefits in some areas;

(https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/devaluation-winners-losers.jpg)

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1882/economics/winners-and-losers-from-weak-pound/

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 20, 2018, 07:16:16 AM
Instead of getting your underwear in a twist, find some facts. Rumours abound, but no-one is forecasting what will happen, just what they fear mught happen. If the word 'might' is in there then 'might not' is also possible.

A fall in the value of the pound is mentioned. Is that an unmitigated disaster? No it isn't, actually, there are benefits in some areas;

(https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/devaluation-winners-losers.jpg)

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1882/economics/winners-and-losers-from-weak-pound/
Sorry, you mentioned facts but I failed to see any in your post, only more guesses.  That’s the problem with Brexit.  No one can say for certain what leaving with no deal will actually mean for tbe country but many experts agree that it will be an unmitigated disaster for the economy, and that the poorest in society will be the hardest hit.  Of course there is a chance the opposite may be true but crashing out with no deal is reckless and irresponsible in the extreme IMO.  My business will almost certainly be affected negatively and if I still have it in its current in a year’s time after a no deal Brexit I will be amazed.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 07:58:36 AM
Sorry, you mentioned facts but I failed to see any in your post, only more guesses.  That’s the problem with Brexit.  No one can say for certain what leaving with no deal will actually mean for tbe country but many experts agree that it will be an unmitigated disaster for the economy, and that the poorest in society will be the hardest hit.  Of course there is a chance the opposite may be true but crashing out with no deal is reckless and irresponsible in the extreme IMO.  My business will almost certainly be affected negatively and if I still have it in its current in a year’s time after a no deal Brexit I will be amazed.

How will your business be negatively affected?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 20, 2018, 08:05:34 AM
How will your business be negatively affected?
Rising costs of the products I sell which are mostly manufactured in the EU, longer lead times, higher retail prices, fewer customers, thst sort of thing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 08:48:58 AM
Rising costs of the products I sell which are mostly manufactured in the EU, longer lead times, higher retail prices, fewer customers, thst sort of thing.

That sounds very vague. Hopefully you are going to look at the details before 29th March as there's much more than higher prices to consider. There are customs declarations, duty payments and different Vat riles to think about when importing.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/trading-with-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/trading-with-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 20, 2018, 06:15:56 PM
That sounds very vague. Hopefully you are going to look at the details before 29th March as there's much more than higher prices to consider. There are customs declarations, duty payments and different Vat riles to think about when importing.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/trading-with-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal/trading-with-the-eu-if-theres-no-brexit-deal
I’m certainly not prepared to be anymore specific than that but thanks for the advice, I hadn’t considered any of those things before   *%87
Perhaps you can also reassure me that a no deal scenario will have little or no financial impact on any of the points I have raised and which keep many small business owners awake at night?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 06:43:26 PM
I’m certainly not prepared to be anymore specific than that but thanks for the advice, I hadn’t considered any of those things before   *%87
Perhaps you can also reassure me that a no deal scenario will have little or no financial impact on any of the points I have raised and which keep many small business owners awake at night?

I can't tell you what the impact will be any more than the experts can. Instead of worrying and complaining, which achieves nothing, businesses need to inform themselves and prepare.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 20, 2018, 06:51:27 PM
I can't tell you what the impact will be any more than the experts can. Instead of worrying and complaining, which achieves nothing, businesses need to inform themselves and prepare.
I’m fully prepared - for fewer customers, lower sales and reduced profits.  I will probably have to make my staff redundant and work six days a week, and forget having a holiday, ever, and give up all thoughts of early retirement and a nice little cottage in the Dordogne.  Oh well, never mind, at least we will have gotten rid of the unelected bureaucrats, with their snouts in the trough that make our lives a living hell currently, and will be able to buy a bendy banana whenever we choose.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 20, 2018, 07:07:45 PM
No Deal will never happen.
It's politicians we are talking about here remember.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 20, 2018, 07:24:04 PM
No Deal will never happen.
It's politicians we are talking about here remember.
Let’s hope you’re right.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 20, 2018, 08:18:50 PM
Let’s hope you’re right.

The Grauniad reported a few days ago that Mrs May was within 20 votes of a victory for her deal
The DUP will not vote in anyway that increases the possibility of a No Deal. That way they lose pretty much any chance of the "border prize" they seek. With May's deal they are at least  in with a shout. When the malcontents see which way the wind is blowing they will set their jibs accordingly. A No Deal will see alot of them out of work come the next general election. Few will decline the company shilling. Then those pesky Europeans have given her [T.M] a leg up by broadcasting their contingency plans, in the event of no deal, four weeks earlier than the treaties demand.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 08:30:30 PM
I’m fully prepared - for fewer customers, lower sales and reduced profits.  I will probably have to make my staff redundant and work six days a week, and forget having a holiday, ever, and give up all thoughts of early retirement and a nice little cottage in the Dordogne.  Oh well, never mind, at least we will have gotten rid of the unelected bureaucrats, with their snouts in the trough that make our lives a living hell currently, and will be able to buy a bendy banana whenever we choose.

What a defeatist attitude you have.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 20, 2018, 08:34:31 PM
The Grauniad reported a few days ago that Mrs May was within 20 votes of a victory for her deal
The DUP will not vote in anyway that increases the possibility of a No Deal. That way they lose pretty much any chance of the "border prize" they seek. With May's deal they are at least  in with a shout. When the malcontents see which way the wind is blowing they will set their jibs accordingly. A No Deal will see alot of them out of work come the next general election. Few will decline the company shilling. Then those pesky Europeans have given her [T.M] a leg up by broadcasting their contingency plans, in the event of no deal, four weeks earlier than the treaties demand.

So you think they'll give in, despite all the kicking and screaming? What hypocrites they are; but we knew that anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 20, 2018, 10:09:54 PM
What a defeatist attitude you have.
Ah, but I didn’t live through the good ol’ days of post war misery and rationing like what you did, that’s why I’m such a pathetic wimp and not looking forward to the return of the good ol’ days like what you are.  Probably.   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 20, 2018, 10:33:04 PM
So you think they'll give in, despite all the kicking and screaming? What hypocrites they are; but we knew that anyway.

I never thought any other way.
You can't operate in a vacuum so our only option is to use EU laws and Harmonised Standards because we have none of our own. That's already a done deal.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 06:20:19 AM
I never thought any other way.
You can't operate in a vacuum so our only option is to use EU laws and Harmonised Standards because we have none of our own. That's already a done deal.

Didn't we adopt them as our own in the Withdrawal Bill?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 06:38:06 AM
Ah, but I didn’t live through the good ol’ days of post war misery and rationing like what you did, that’s why I’m such a pathetic wimp and not forward to the return of the good ol’ days like what you are.  Probably.   @)(++(*

If strength and character only develop through adversity then a no deal Brexit might have positive effects. The strong and capable will survive and the incompetent wimps won't.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 07:09:39 AM
If strength and character only develop through adversity then a no deal Brexit might have positive effects. The strong and capable will survive and the incompetent wimps won't.
Gosh, that could have been a Nazi slogan!  What will happen to the incompetent wimps then? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 09:07:11 AM
I can’t really disagree with a word of this

Corbyn’s real failing is his refusal to lead
Philip CollinsDecember 20 2018, 5:00pm,
Even faced with May’s chaotic plans for immigration and a no-deal Brexit, Labour still can’t outline a winning policy


The Which? website is not usually the place where politicians seek advice but the absurd twists of Brexit have made it so. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, has declared that, as part of the contingency planning for leaving the European Union without a withdrawal agreement, he is buying fridges. Which? is carrying an excellent interactive tool for finding the best fridge, which I draw to Mr Hancock’s attention: freestanding or integrated, humidity controls in the salad drawer, that sort of thing.

This is what the government is reducing itself to. As well as the mockery it invites, this should cause a shiver of fear among Labour supporters. How can the official opposition be trailing a government that has a policy of bulk-buying fridges?

Jeremy Corbyn managed to turn the news cycle away from Europe for a few hours by calling Theresa May a “stupid woman” in parliament and then brazenly denying he had done so. Corbyn supporters rushed to their hero’s defence with laughable whataboutery (“why are we discussing this when there is a housing crisis?”) but the language matters.

Sexist language is, quite rightly, heavily policed in the Labour Party. To be exposed as an unthinking man with a sharp tongue both impairs Mr Corbyn’s image as a kinder, gentler politician and offends the Labour culture. If it didn’t matter he would have conceded and apologised. Mr Corbyn is often slippery with language but his supporters grant him Humpty Dumpty status. Words mean what he says they mean. He is so good that he can say words he hasn’t said.

Yet beyond the implications of Mr Corbyn’s language lies a political weakness. Mr Corbyn managed, once more, to find a way not to capitalise on a desperately vulnerable government. Let us not mince words about the shambles the Conservative Party has wrought on this country. There have been two instances this week of Mrs May’s government acting in a manner unprecedented in the history of political strategy; it is now official public policy that Britain should become poorer.

The white paper on immigration, published on Wednesday, is the result of Mrs May’s excessive interpretation that the 2016 referendum was a plebiscite against the free movement of people. The government is proposing to restrict the right of entry of productive workers from elsewhere. By 2025 this policy could, on the government’s own testimony, reduce GDP by between 0.4 per cent and 0.9 per cent of what it would otherwise have been.

This despite the fact that the government has no evidence, and admits that it has no evidence, that wages for British workers will rise or that productivity will improve. The proposal to establish a salary threshold of £30,000, below which visas will be restricted, would have terrible effects in some public services, notably social care which is a low-paid sector reliant on migrant labour. To reduce growth and make services worse. This is now government policy.

Yet this is not all. The government is, at the same time, planning an even more cunning method of reducing growth, which is to leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement. The Department of Transport has announced a “lorry lottery” to allocate permits for cross-Channel trade. This country has 40 trade deals with non-European countries which depend on its membership of the EU and which all lapse in the event that Britain has no deal.

There is likely to be at least some disruption to the 84 per cent of the UK’s exported meat and the 72 per cent of its dairy produce that goes to the EU. The price of food would rise, at least in the short term. A ten-minute wait for every one of the 2.6 million lorries which pass through Dover every year would cause chaos. The government is now in active planning for this outcome and, if Mrs May’s deal falls on January 14 next year, it could even become its preferred option.

We are all becoming inured to terrible politics yet this is extraordinary. It is also unnecessary. It is perfectly possible for Mrs May to say, brooking no contradiction, that she is not prepared to take Britain out of the EU without a deal. To do otherwise, she could and should say, is irresponsible. She could make it plain that she is prepared to delay the point of departure rather than leave on this basis. Instead, she is using the threat of no-deal as a bargaining chip. With the legislation in place to ensure departure on March 29, this could happen by default and accident. It is outrageous that Mrs May, who could say that it won’t be allowed, refuses to say so.

It is important to spell this out because this is the context in which Mr Corbyn’s Labour Party cannot manage a poll lead. There has been almost no change in voting intention since the June 2017 general election which, given the tumult, is an incredible statement. The government is, on every measure except voting intention, in a dire state. It has a net satisfaction rating of minus 45 which is similar to Gordon Brown after the 2008 crash or Mrs Thatcher during the poll tax. A majority of the public think the government is handling Brexit badly and the vast majority think the Tories are a divided party. Ratings like these have always before translated into a significant defect in voting intention. Not now.

It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that Mr Corbyn’s slip-of-the-mind at PMQs on Wednesday was the latest instalment in his series of political failures. Britain is going through a fundamental discussion of its identity and its place and where is the leader of the opposition? On the rare days he shows up for work he has nothing to say. He is clearly the creature of warring advisers in his own entourage.

First he is tabling a motion of no confidence, though not the expected one, and then he isn’t. He wants a general election, he says, but not so much that he tries to get one. He knows that if he fails to secure a general election he would be forced to declare his hand on a second referendum, which he does not want to do. There are even whispers that Mr Corbyn might order his shadow ministers to abstain on Mrs May’s vote next month in the hope that it might sneak through.

Mr Corbyn’s is a less important abdication of leadership than Mrs May’s but it is even more complete. He has to come to a clear position on Europe eventually and he has to start sounding as if he cares. It is no wonder that his approval rating is minus 32, a long way behind the prime minister’s.

There is a lot of political game-playing to go. The Tories are such a rabble that they may yet succeed in giving power away. They will have to because Mr Corbyn is proving himself completely hopeless at taking it.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 09:59:25 AM
Gosh, that could have been a Nazi slogan!  What will happen to the incompetent wimps then?

What? You admitted that you, as a small business owner, have made no attempt to educated yourself about how to deal with a no deal exit from the EU. You also admitted that you had no plans to do so. The only plan you seem to have is to just keep on complaining if your business goes down the pan. When your defeatist attitude was pointed out you admitted being a wimp and said it was due to the fact that you weren't around in the post WW2 era.

I'm sure there are small business owners of a similar age who are taking action in an effort to save their businesses  if a no deal Brexit happens. They may or may not succeed, but at least they'll have tried to save their businesses, their employees jobs and they may yet enjoy their retirement plans. What do you think should happen to those wimps who put no effort in?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 10:35:22 AM
What? You admitted that you, as a small business owner, have made no attempt to educated yourself about how to deal with a no deal exit from the EU. You also admitted that you had no plans to do so. The only plan you seem to have is to just keep on complaining if your business goes down the pan. When your defeatist attitude was pointed out you admitted being a wimp and said it was due to the fact that you weren't around in the post WW2 era.

I'm sure there are small business owners of a similar age who are taking action in an effort to save their businesses  if a no deal Brexit happens. They may or may not succeed, but at least they'll have tried to save their businesses, their employees jobs and they may yet enjoy their retirement plans. What do you think should happen to those wimps who put no effort in?
Could I please have a cite for where I admitted I had made no attempt to educate myself and had made no plans to do so?  I think I outlined my plans insofar as I am able without giving away any detail of the business I am in.  Much of the planning you referred to does not in any case apply to my business but to the businesses that I buy from who import the product from the continent in the first place.   You really don’t seem to understand self-deprecating humour, though clearly enjoy making light of other more serious subject matters.  You have at least admitted that Brexit will bring adversity and that those less well equipped to deal with it will suffer greatly.  And you seem to think this is a good thing!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 11:01:40 AM
Could I please have a cite for where I admitted I had made no attempt to educate myself and had made no plans to do so?  I think I outlined my plans insofar as I am able without giving away any detail of the business I am in.  Much of the planning you referred to does not in any case apply to my business but to the businesses that I buy from who import the product from the continent in the first place.   You really don’t seem to understand self-deprecating humour, though clearly enjoy making light of other more serious subject matters.  You have at least admitted that Brexit will bring adversity and that those less well equipped to deal with it will suffer greatly.  And you seem to think this is a good thing!!

I don't see why you would need to hide the nature of your business, but I expect you have your reasons. If I misunderstood your posts it's perhaps because you were being obscure.

Playing games doesn't impress me, so I'll end our discussion here.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 11:18:16 AM
I don't see why you would need to hide the nature of your business, but I expect you have your reasons. If I misunderstood your posts it's perhaps because you were being obscure.

Playing games doesn't impress me, so I'll end our discussion here.
I’m not playing games, I have been as frank as I dare be, but I do have quite a specialist business and I know from bitter experience the lengths some people will go to to “out” me.  I’m not pointing the finger at anyone on this forum specifically before you suggest it. 
The long and the short of it is that a no deal Brexit will have a negative impact on my business certainly in the short term (six months to a year), how can it not?  The question is, will I be able to survive six months to a year of post Brexit consequences?  Will I get the stock I need in time and at a price my customers will be prepared to pay?  Will I turn over enough to keep two people in part-time employment?  Will I be able to pay all my significant overheads?   No amount of planning and reading up on the subject is likely to make everything plain sailing, despite what you seem to think, and if my business crashes it will not be through a lack of business acumen, hard graft and balls on my part. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 12:32:16 PM
I’m not playing games, I have been as frank as I dare be, but I do have quite a specialist business and I know from bitter experience the lengths some people will go to to “out” me.  I’m not pointing the finger at anyone on this forum specifically before you suggest it. 
The long and the short of it is that a no deal Brexit will have a negative impact on my business certainly in the short term (six months to a year), how can it not?  The question is, will I be able to survive six months to a year of post Brexit consequences?  Will I get the stock I need in time and at a price my customers will be prepared to pay?  Will I turn over enough to keep two people in part-time employment?  Will I be able to pay all my significant overheads?   No amount of planning and reading up on the subject is likely to make everything plain sailing, despite what you seem to think, and if my business crashes it will not be through a lack of business acumen, hard graft and balls on my part.

I can think of a few things you can do to inform yourself of future problems. Have you done anything at all?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 21, 2018, 01:48:53 PM
Didn't we adopt them as our own in the Withdrawal Bill?

Yes because we had no choice.
This and the immigration bit are where I believe the rabid "leavers" in parliament led the proles up the garden path and dropped them in the pond.
We have to retain EU laws otherwise we have a gaping hole in our legal system which cannot be allowed.
Net EU immigration in 2016 was 74,000 out of a total 248,000, by my reckoning 248k less 74k is few more than the tens of thousands bandied about and those 160k+ are the ones we have little control over.
EU workers taking UK jobs? Well not in agriculture see Tolpuddle Martyrs;  nor in catering. There were issues ten to twenty years ago with French labour taking jobs Brits would not in hotels along the south coast.
Grayling's idea of self sufficiency in food is beyond parody. We nearly starved to death in two world wars and rationing in 1951 was stricter than in the war years. We relied on plundering our Empire for more than a century for our food stuffs.
So that's a few key planks of the leave campaign well and truly mullered......but we were not told that.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 02:39:24 PM
Yes because we had no choice.
This and the immigration bit are where I believe the rabid "leavers" in parliament led the proles up the garden path and dropped them in the pond.
We have to retain EU laws otherwise we have a gaping hole in our legal system which cannot be allowed.
Net EU immigration in 2016 was 74,000 out of a total 248,000, by my reckoning 248k less 74k is few more than the tens of thousands bandied about and those 160k+ are the ones we have little control over.
EU workers taking UK jobs? Well not in agriculture see Tolpuddle Martyrs;  nor in catering. There were issues ten to twenty years ago with French labour taking jobs Brits would not in hotels along the south coast.
Grayling's idea of self sufficiency in food is beyond parody. We nearly starved to death in two world wars and rationing in 1951 was stricter than in the war years. We relied on plundering our Empire for more than a century for our food stuffs.
So that's a few key planks of the leave campaign well and truly mullered......but we were not told that.

I can only speak for what I see. I spent quite a lot of time in our local Casualty a while back. It was difficult not to notice how many of those waiting didn't speak English as their native language. They were in the majority. I don't begrudge them being treated, but it definitely created pressure on our NHS which was not being acknowledged by politicians. I saw doctors and nurses who were struggling to reach the targets those politicians were setting. The same unacknowledged pressure was exerted on GP's, housing and probably in other areas.

Rationing wasn't just imposed because of food shortages. There was less food available and there were concerns about fairness. Those with money could afford to buy up the scarce goods and stockpile, leaving poorer people in desperate straights. We're unlikely to be unable to import food after a no deal Brexit, but prices will rise and again the poor will suffer most.

It is as it ever was. Those with money can buy what they need. It is those who are on low incomes who will always suffer from cuts in services or rising prices. That's how I see it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 04:26:49 PM
I can think of a few things you can do to inform yourself of future problems. Have you done anything at all?
Such as?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 04:32:53 PM
I can only speak for what I see. I spent quite a lot of time in our local Casualty a while back. It was difficult not to notice how many of those waiting didn't speak English as their native language. They were in the majority. I don't begrudge them being treated, but it definitely created pressure on our NHS which was not being acknowledged by politicians. I saw doctors and nurses who were struggling to reach the targets those politicians were setting. The same unacknowledged pressure was exerted on GP's, housing and probably in other areas.

Rationing wasn't just imposed because of food shortages. There was less food available and there were concerns about fairness. Those with money could afford to buy up the scarce goods and stockpile, leaving poorer people in desperate straights. We're unlikely to be unable to import food after a no deal Brexit, but prices will rise and again the poor will suffer most.

It is as it ever was. Those with money can buy what they need. It is those who are on low incomes who will always suffer from cuts in services or rising prices. That's how I see it.
I was in A & E for several hours this year, hospital for two weeks and in and out of hospital all year.  I would say a good 50% of staff attending to me were non British nationals.  I was in a ward where 5 sixths of the patients were old, white, British, this in a part of the city with high levels of Asiian immigration.  Make of those statistics what you will.  Brexit will as you admit hit the poorest the hardest so why would anyone with any sort of social conscience think that no-deal Brexit will be good or even just “ok” for this country?  It won’t in my (ignorant, ill-informed, don’t read-anything, wimpish) opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 06:07:12 PM
Such as?

You tell me what you've done and then I'll give you my thoughts.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 06:13:51 PM
You tell me what you've done and then I'll give you my thoughts.
Now you’re playing games.  If you have some advice for me that you think will help me and my business survive the impact of a no-deal Brexit then kindly share it. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 06:40:50 PM
I was in A & E for several hours this year, hospital for two weeks and in and out of hospital all year.  I would say a good 50% of staff attending to me were non British nationals.  I was in a ward where 5 sixths of the patients were old, white, British, this in a part of the city with high levels of Asiian immigration.  Make of those statistics what you will.  Brexit will as you admit hit the poorest the hardest so why would anyone with any sort of social conscience think that no-deal Brexit will be good or even just “ok” for this country?  It won’t in my (ignorant, ill-informed, don’t read-anything, wimpish) opinion.

I've never said I thought it was good, I said it might not be the car crash being predicted. Most of the prophets of doom are concerned about business needs. If challenged they will say successful businesses=more GDP, more tax revenue and more jobs. Well Amazon is doing great, but it manages not to pay much tax and it doesn't offer job security to it's employees. They are not the only ones either.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 21, 2018, 06:44:29 PM
I can only speak for what I see. I spent quite a lot of time in our local Casualty a while back. It was difficult not to notice how many of those waiting didn't speak English as their native language. They were in the majority. I don't begrudge them being treated, but it definitely created pressure on our NHS which was not being acknowledged by politicians. I saw doctors and nurses who were struggling to reach the targets those politicians were setting. The same unacknowledged pressure was exerted on GP's, housing and probably in other areas.

Rationing wasn't just imposed because of food shortages. There was less food available and there were concerns about fairness. Those with money could afford to buy up the scarce goods and stockpile, leaving poorer people in desperate straights. We're unlikely to be unable to import food after a no deal Brexit, but prices will rise and again the poor will suffer most.

It is as it ever was. Those with money can buy what they need. It is those who are on low incomes who will always suffer from cuts in services or rising prices. That's how I see it.

If they are not EU citizens or paying up front, I begrudge it.
"That'll be cash on the barrelhead, son
You can take your choice
You're twenty one
No money down
No credit plan
No time to chase you
'Cause I'm a busy man"

Join the waiting list squire.

The rich stockpiling only works with goods that can be stockpiled. Bread was rationed when I was a kid.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 06:44:53 PM
Now you’re playing games.  If you have some advice for me that you think will help me and my business survive the impact of a no-deal Brexit then kindly share it.

I tried that, only to realise I was wasting my time. You may have already taken the steps I'm thinking of, so I'll wait until I know what you've already done first.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 06:47:00 PM
I've never said I thought it was good, I said it might not be the car crash being predicted. Most of the prophets of doom are concerned about business needs. If challenged they will say successful businesses=more GDP, more tax revenue and more jobs. Well Amazon is doing great, but it manages not to pay much tax and it doesn't offer job security to it's employees. They are not the only ones either.
I’m not quite sure what you’re on about,  Amazon is an international business and in a supremely powerful position to cope with any impact from post Brexit no-deal chaos.  Most businesses are not Amazon, and Brexit could even be an advantage for internet giants such as them if it causes the closure of even more high street shops in the aftermath of a no deal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 06:47:41 PM
I tried that, only to realise I was wasting my time. You may have already taken the steps I'm thinking of, so I'll wait until I know what you've already done first.
I have taken no steps at all.  Now over to you.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 07:03:44 PM
If they are not EU citizens or paying up front, I begrudge it.
"That'll be cash on the barrelhead, son
You can take your choice
You're twenty one
No money down
No credit plan
No time to chase you
'Cause I'm a busy man"

Join the waiting list squire.

The rich stockpiling only works with goods that can be stockpiled. Bread was rationed when I was a kid.

Bread was rationed from July 1946 for two years. You mist be older than me if you can remember that. Rationed goods which could be stockpiled included tea, canned, dried and bottled foods, petrol and coal. During WW2 the nation's health actually improved because everyone got a better diet than before. My mother hated butter but accepted her allocated ration then mashed it up with margarine to disguise the taste.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 07:15:44 PM
I joked on FB today that I hoped there would be enough mangelwurzels to go round post-Brexit and my 80 year old mother replied:
“IMHO a diet of mangelworzels is HUGELY preferable to staying in the EU”.  Typical Brextremist is my dear ol’ ma, she’s positively looking forward to a return to post-war Britain!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 08:56:36 PM
I joked on FB today that I hoped there would be enough mangelwurzels to go round post-Brexit and my 80 year old mother replied:
“IMHO a diet of mangelworzels is HUGELY preferable to staying in the EU”.  Typical Brextremist is my dear ol’ ma, she’s positively looking forward to a return to post-war Britain!

Your jokes seem to have a habit of falling on stony ground, don't they?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 09:12:24 PM
Your jokes seem to have a habit of falling on stony ground, don't they?
I do find that the Leave Brigade are very po-faced and humourless when it comes to Brexit.  Anyhow, I look forward to hearing your advice on what I need to do to mitigate the effects of a no deal Brexit on my business.  In your own time of course..l
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on December 21, 2018, 10:09:02 PM
Bread was rationed from July 1946 for two years. You mist be older than me if you can remember that. Rationed goods which could be stockpiled included tea, canned, dried and bottled foods, petrol and coal. During WW2 the nation's health actually improved because everyone got a better diet than before. My mother hated butter but accepted her allocated ration then mashed it up with margarine to disguise the taste.

I remember throwing snowballs at mi mum in food queues in the winter of 1947, I was 10 when sweets finally came off ration and 11 when meat came off ration. My eldest sister had to take her ration book with her when she went to university in 1948. The middle sister went to university in 1953 so presumably had to take her ration book too. Something ain't quite right if it takes nine years to stop rationing basic food stuffs, greedy toffs notwithstanding. Or it could be we are not self sufficient in food nor have been since the Napoleonic Wars.
I made it to 75 this year. Mr Reaper had a pop at me late spring. He came down the road with everything he had hoodie, scythe and all but failed dismally. I'll go when I am good and ready don't phone me I'll phone you Mr Reaper.... 8(>((
Wikipedia is quite amusing in places on rationing, especially the Cambridge experiment. The eye opener is the extra points given to diabetics all those years ago. There is an interesting display in Poole Museum re early 1950s rationing shown as a typical kitchen and pantry/larder of the time. It's not particularly inspiring. Having lived through rationing and digging bleeding allotments at age seven/eight I don't have many nostalgic memories of it.
If it happens soon I'll sit on a wagon with an overunder 10 gauge making sure Chris Grayling hoes his row.... @)(++(*


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on December 21, 2018, 10:15:49 PM
I joked on FB today that I hoped there would be enough mangelwurzels to go round post-Brexit and my 80 year old mother replied:
“IMHO a diet of mangelworzels is HUGELY preferable to staying in the EU”.  Typical Brextremist is my dear ol’ ma, she’s positively looking forward to a return to post-war Britain!

She's a gem VS.   8(0(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on December 21, 2018, 10:19:43 PM
No Deal will never happen.
It's politicians we are talking about here remember.

They have no veto as far as I understand Alice.  If there is no deal we leave the EU on the 29th March 2019 by default.  I think this is what the government are now preparing for, nothing else will ever get past a divided Parliament.

IMO the writing is now on the wall. A 'No Deal Brexit' is a real possibility despite Remainers in Parliament attempting to talk it down.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-planning-eu-commission-citizens-rights-business-economy-theresa-may-a8690476.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 10:40:01 PM
They have no veto as far as I understand Alice.  If there is no deal we leave the EU on the 29th March 2019 by default.  I think this is what the government are now preparing for, nothing else will ever get past a divided Parliament.

IMO the writing is now on the wall. A 'No Deal Brexit' is a real possibility despite Remainers in Parliament attempting to talk it down.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-planning-eu-commission-citizens-rights-business-economy-theresa-may-a8690476.html
IMO there will be a deadline extension and the agony will continue for a further six months, year, whatever.   
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 10:46:05 PM
I remember throwing snowballs at mi mum in food queues in the winter of 1947, I was 10 when sweets finally came off ration and 11 when meat came off ration. My eldest sister had to take her ration book with her when she went to university in 1948. The middle sister went to university in 1953 so presumably had to take her ration book too. Something ain't quite right if it takes nine years to stop rationing basic food stuffs, greedy toffs notwithstanding. Or it could be we are not self sufficient in food nor have been since the Napoleonic Wars.
I made it to 75 this year. Mr Reaper had a pop at me late spring. He came down the road with everything he had hoodie, scythe and all but failed dismally. I'll go when I am good and ready don't phone me I'll phone you Mr Reaper.... 8(>((
Wikipedia is quite amusing in places on rationing, especially the Cambridge experiment. The eye opener is the extra points given to diabetics all those years ago. There is an interesting display in Poole Museum re early 1950s rationing shown as a typical kitchen and pantry/larder of the time. It's not particularly inspiring. Having lived through rationing and digging bleeding allotments at age seven/eight I don't have many nostalgic memories of it.
If it happens soon I'll sit on a wagon with an overunder 10 gauge making sure Chris Grayling hoes his row.... @)(++(*

I'm merely 74. No sign of the Reaper yet, but he sneaks up on people sometimes doesn't he? I remember rationing of course, but not feeling deprived at all. Sweets were an occasional treat anyway and my mother was a fabulous cook; I can still remember her liver and bacon for example. Due to clothes rationing she used to go to jumble sales, buy adult knitwear and unwind it to make woollies for me. She also cut down adult dresses to make my clothes. I remember the discomfort of old houses in winter most. Draughty with frost on the inside of the windows, just one coal fire, freezing bedrooms and bathrooms, slippery eiderdowns I had a hot water bottle and bedsocks, but woke up with a freezing nose.

My husband had an overunder, but I don't remember the guage.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 21, 2018, 11:05:13 PM
IMO there will be a deadline extension and the agony will continue for a further six months, year, whatever.

That can only happen if the UK Government and the EU both agree to it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 11:16:24 PM
That can only happen if the UK Government and the EU both agree to it.
I am well aware of that, thanks.  Now, what should I be doing in advance of a no-deal Brexit to keep my business afloat, please?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on December 21, 2018, 11:20:15 PM
I am well aware of that, thanks.  Now, what should I be doing in advance of a no-deal Brexit to keep my business afloat, please?

How can G-Unit advise you on your business without knowing what type of business it is, a shop, a factory, a cleaning business.  All will have different needs IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 21, 2018, 11:24:16 PM
How can G-Unit advise you on your business without knowing what type of business it is, a shop, a factory, a cleaning business.  All will have different needs IMO.
I’ve no idea but she claimed earlier that she could (see below) so I continue to wait patiently...

“I can think of a few things you can do to inform yourself of future problems. Have you done anything at all?”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 22, 2018, 07:15:00 AM
I am well aware of that, thanks.  Now, what should I be doing in advance of a no-deal Brexit to keep my business afloat, please?

I told you how it works.

1. You tell me what you have already done.
2. I will then tell you of anything else I can  think of which might help.

Without 1 you don't get 2.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 22, 2018, 07:17:50 AM
I told you how it works.

1. You tell me what you have already done.
2. I will then tell you of anything else I can  think of which might help.

Without 1 you don't get 2.
I think you will find I have already answered.  But here it is again:  I have taken no steps so far to help mitigate the effects on my business of a no deal Brexit.  Now please educate me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 22, 2018, 09:40:15 AM

I think you will find I have already answered.  But here it is again:  I have taken no steps so far to help mitigate the effects on my business of a no deal Brexit.  Now please educate me.

It's just common sense really. It isn't, as I first thought, you who are importing the goods you sell. Therefore you need to speak to the importers; your suppliers? They should be researching;

The likely amount of any price increases to them.

The likelihood of delays to their deliveries.

If they, like you, have done nothing you could approach other suppliers (if there are any) to see if they're more proactive.


Failing all that, the WTO website lists tariffs, which will give you an idea about price rises. Clearly customs checks will delay deliveries so that needs to be taken into account.

If you have regular customers who order from you, let them know that they should order earlier than normal and perhaps recommend that they order extra in the meantime if the product keeps.
 
If your customers are one off, and you have a website make sure you have a page on Brexit, warning of any future price rises or delays as a result of a no deal exit. (Is that a Nexit lol?)


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 22, 2018, 05:37:54 PM
It's just common sense really. It isn't, as I first thought, you who are importing the goods you sell. Therefore you need to speak to the importers; your suppliers? They should be researching;

The likely amount of any price increases to them.

The likelihood of delays to their deliveries.

If they, like you, have done nothing you could approach other suppliers (if there are any) to see if they're more proactive.


Failing all that, the WTO website lists tariffs, which will give you an idea about price rises. Clearly customs checks will delay deliveries so that needs to be taken into account.

If you have regular customers who order from you, let them know that they should order earlier than normal and perhaps recommend that they order extra in the meantime if the product keeps.
 
If your customers are one off, and you have a website make sure you have a page on Brexit, warning of any future price rises or delays as a result of a no deal exit. (Is that a Nexit lol?)
Most of the companies I deal with directly are global organizations and are already putting plans in place and have issued warnings.  Customer pre-ordering is standard practice in my company already as it helps me to gauge demand.  Thanks for the advice (genuinely) but in practice there is very little I can do to plan for a no deal Brexit, apart from to consider what alternatives are within my control going forward  - product mix, overheads including staffing levels, opening hours, maximizing online sales opportunities etc marketing, most things which I am constantly considering and tweaking / implementing anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 10, 2019, 07:01:09 PM
So the UK are moving inexorably towards a no deal Brexit. If they reject May's deal next week they have no other option in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 11, 2019, 07:22:51 AM
So the UK are moving inexorably towards a no deal Brexit. If they reject May's deal next week they have no other option in my opinion.
And this is what those who voted leave wanted all along.  So bring it on.  I look forward to hearing them blame everyone but themselves when it all goes to shit.  Not. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 12, 2019, 10:12:20 AM
And this is what those who voted leave wanted all along.  So bring it on.  I look forward to hearing them blame everyone but themselves when it all goes to shit.  Not.

Obviously that's what they wanted, it's what they voted for. You seem incredibly well informed about the characters of the 17.5 million people who voted to leave. How on earth can you know that they will all blame others if it 'goes to s**t'? (your language!) You also seem to have accepted the passemist's opinion that it will 'all go to s**t'. It might be the best thing the UK ever did. Either way, you are clearly not a democrat because a democrat believes that the result of a democratic vote should be accepted.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 12, 2019, 05:56:18 PM
Obviously that's what they wanted, it's what they voted for. You seem incredibly well informed about the characters of the 17.5 million people who voted to leave. How on earth can you know that they will all blame others if it 'goes to s**t'? (your language!) You also seem to have accepted the passemist's opinion that it will 'all go to s**t'. It might be the best thing the UK ever did. Either way, you are clearly not a democrat because a democrat believes that the result of a democratic vote should be accepted.
Oh I’m clearly not a democrat am I?  And your evidence for this is what exactly?  The fact that I’m a pessimist and used a naughty word?  What piffle.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 13, 2019, 07:29:01 AM
Obviously that's what they wanted, it's what they voted for. You seem incredibly well informed about the characters of the 17.5 million people who voted to leave. How on earth can you know that they will all blame others if it 'goes to s**t'? (your language!) You also seem to have accepted the passemist's opinion that it will 'all go to s**t'. It might be the best thing the UK ever did. Either way, you are clearly not a democrat because a democrat believes that the result of a democratic vote should be accepted.

Can it be considered a democratic vote when:
- the electorate had no way of knowing the implications at the time?
- some politicians engaged in dodgy campaign tactics (cf Farage, Banks and the Cambridge Analytica saga), using money from as yet unclear sources, with campaign messages that were largely on the spectrum ranging from misleading to false?
- Scotland, NI and Gibraltar voted against it?
- UK citizens resident in Europe for 15+ years were banned from voting?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 13, 2019, 08:30:15 AM
Can it be considered a democratic vote when:
- the electorate had no way of knowing the implications at the time?
- some politicians engaged in dodgy campaign tactics (cf Farage, Banks and the Cambridge Analytica saga), using money from as yet unclear sources, with campaign messages that were largely on the spectrum ranging from misleading to false?
- Scotland, NI and Gibraltar voted against it?
- UK citizens resident in Europe for 15+ years were banned from voting?

It was as democratic as any general election, unless you think politicians know the truth and tell it when canpaigning. The truth is that no-one knows what the implications will be, they're all guessing no matter which point of view they have.

If you're going to break the vote down into areas you might as well start arguing about how counties or towns voted. The referendum was a UK referendum, so how parts of the UK voted isn't relevant.

There is a cut-off point for voting if people live abroad and they know it. Tough.

It might be worth remembering that the UK vored to join the Common Market originally, it never voted to join the European Union.

 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 13, 2019, 12:48:21 PM
It was as democratic as any general election, unless you think politicians know the truth and tell it when canpaigning. The truth is that no-one knows what the implications will be, they're all guessing no matter which point of view they have.

If you're going to break the vote down into areas you might as well start arguing about how counties or towns voted. The referendum was a UK referendum, so how parts of the UK voted isn't relevant.

There is a cut-off point for voting if people live abroad and they know it. Tough.

It might be worth remembering that the UK vored to join the Common Market originally, it never voted to join the European Union.
Do you think the population of Great Britain is better informed now about the EU and the risks of leaving it now than they were three years ago?  Is it a good idea to take a course of action the outcome of which for the entire country is (according to you) completely unknown?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 13, 2019, 03:08:13 PM
It was as democratic as any general election, unless you think politicians know the truth and tell it when canpaigning. The truth is that no-one knows what the implications will be, they're all guessing no matter which point of view they have.

If you're going to break the vote down into areas you might as well start arguing about how counties or towns voted. The referendum was a UK referendum, so how parts of the UK voted isn't relevant.

There is a cut-off point for voting if people live abroad and they know it. Tough.

It might be worth remembering that the UK vored to join the Common Market originally, it never voted to join the European Union.

At a general election political parties set out a detailed manifesto, and this is subject to detailed critique by the press and rival parties. 

And it is subject to another election in 5 years.

Vote leave were v economical with the truth and the likely outcome is very different from that which was promised. 

My thoughts are that you should have a second referendum. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 09:17:33 AM
There was an interesting debate this morning. Lord Mandelson was predicting awful consequences if the UK left the EU without a deal. Piers Morgan reminded him of the awful consequences he predicted if the UK didn't join the Euro; which never occured. Why, he asked, should people believe Mandelson this time? A reasonable point.

Esther McVey then spoke on the subject and sounded like the voice of reason to me. She said the Remainers were trying to scare people just as they did during the referendum campaign. According to her we have no need to fear leaving without a deal. Preparations have been made and trading under WTO rules isn't the end of the world; much of our trade is already done that way, as is much of world trade.

I agree with Piers Morgan. He thinks the population were asked a question and promised that the result of the referendum would be honoured. The political classes need to stop patronising the electorate and carry out their democratically expressed will.

The problem, it seems to me, is not whether we stay in the EU or leave, the problem is the reluctance of politicians to uphold democratic ideals. It first emerged in the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn and it now seems that we have few if any politicians who actually believe in democracy. They only believe in it if it delivers what they want in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 14, 2019, 09:43:10 AM
At a general election political parties set out a detailed manifesto, and this is subject to detailed critique by the press and rival parties. 

And it is subject to another election in 5 years.

Vote leave were v economical with the truth and the likely outcome is very different from that which was promised. 

My thoughts are that you should have a second referendum.

Agreed. If you vote in a general election and the government doesn't deliver, you can vote differently next time.

Not so with Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 10:55:19 AM
Agreed. If you vote in a general election and the government doesn't deliver, you can vote differently next time.

Not so with Brexit.

So democracy is only valid if there's a time limit on the result? The people's will is axcceptable every five years but not otherwise? The political class are, in my opinion, heading for a harsh lesson. Unlike our monarchs of old they have no right to rule, devine or otherwise. They are where they are with the permission of the people. Riding roughshod over the will of the people is a very risky game in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2019, 11:14:50 AM
There was an interesting debate this morning. Lord Mandelson was predicting awful consequences if the UK left the EU without a deal. Piers Morgan reminded him of the awful consequences he predicted if the UK didn't join the Euro; which never occured. Why, he asked, should people believe Mandelson this time? A reasonable point.

Esther McVey then spoke on the subject and sounded like the voice of reason to me. She said the Remainers were trying to scare people just as they did during the referendum campaign. According to her we have no need to fear leaving without a deal. Preparations have been made and trading under WTO rules isn't the end of the world; much of our trade is already done that way, as is much of world trade.

I agree with Piers Morgan. He thinks the population were asked a question and promised that the result of the referendum would be honoured. The political classes need to stop patronising the electorate and carry out their democratically expressed will.

The problem, it seems to me, is not whether we stay in the EU or leave, the problem is the reluctance of politicians to uphold democratic ideals. It first emerged in the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn and it now seems that we have few if any politicians who actually believe in democracy. They only believe in it if it delivers what they want in my opinion.

Project Fear is well and truly underway as some MP's attempt to thwart the BREXIT process for their own political ends.  Those MP's who are doing this despite their constituencies voting to leave are being exposed daily in social media. I think their chances of ever being re-elected in any future general election are diminishing by the day.

This week is almost predictable.  Theresa May will lose the Withdrawal Agreement vote tomorrow night, Corbyn will raise a motion of no confidence in her thereafter and will then lose the vote making him look stupid and weak.

I predict too that BREXIT will happen on Friday 29 March by default. The next day will be business as usual, the world will not stop turning.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 12:59:33 PM
Project Fear is well and truly underway as some MP's attempt to thwart the BREXIT process for their own political ends.  Those MP's who are doing this despite their constituencies voting to leave are being exposed daily in social media. I think their chances of ever being re-elected in any future general election are diminishing by the day.

This week is almost predictable.  Theresa May will lose the Withdrawal Agreement vote tomorrow night, Corbyn will raise a motion of no confidence in her thereafter and will then lose the vote making him look stupid and weak.

I predict too that BREXIT will happen on Friday 29 March by default. The next day will be business as usual, the world will not stop turning.

People have been told for years that they live in a democracy. Other countries have been criticised for being undemocratic. It beggars belief that our politicians have publicly and blatently refused to accept the result of a democratic referendum. They all deserve to lose their seats.

Farage gave his opinion this morning. According to him 90% of our trade takes place outside the EU under WTO rules. On the supply chain scare tactics he quoted the assurance by the ports in France that there would be no delays in movement. He also promised to get involved in campaigning again if he thought it necessary.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2019, 05:43:04 PM
There was an interesting debate this morning. Lord Mandelson was predicting awful consequences if the UK left the EU without a deal. Piers Morgan reminded him of the awful consequences he predicted if the UK didn't join the Euro; which never occured. Why, he asked, should people believe Mandelson this time? A reasonable point.

Esther McVey then spoke on the subject and sounded like the voice of reason to me. She said the Remainers were trying to scare people just as they did during the referendum campaign. According to her we have no need to fear leaving without a deal. Preparations have been made and trading under WTO rules isn't the end of the world; much of our trade is already done that way, as is much of world trade.

I agree with Piers Morgan. He thinks the population were asked a question and promised that the result of the referendum would be honoured. The political classes need to stop patronising the electorate and carry out their democratically expressed will.

The problem, it seems to me, is not whether we stay in the EU or leave, the problem is the reluctance of politicians to uphold democratic ideals. It first emerged in the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn and it now seems that we have few if any politicians who actually believe in democracy. They only believe in it if it delivers what they want in my opinion.
Piers Morgan?  Esther McVey?  The voices of reason??  *Shiver*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2019, 05:44:12 PM
So democracy is only valid if there's a time limit on the result? The people's will is axcceptable every five years but not otherwise? The political class are, in my opinion, heading for a harsh lesson. Unlike our monarchs of old they have no right to rule, devine or otherwise. They are where they are with the permission of the people. Riding roughshod over the will of the people is a very risky game in my opinion.
Please explain why giving the people the opportunity to vote for Theresa May’s deal or no deal or no Brexit is undemocratic, many thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2019, 05:46:02 PM
Project Fear is well and truly underway as some MP's attempt to thwart the BREXIT process for their own political ends.  Those MP's who are doing this despite their constituencies voting to leave are being exposed daily in social media. I think their chances of ever being re-elected in any future general election are diminishing by the day.

This week is almost predictable.  Theresa May will lose the Withdrawal Agreement vote tomorrow night, Corbyn will raise a motion of no confidence in her thereafter and will then lose the vote making him look stupid and weak.

I predict too that BREXIT will happen on Friday 29 March by default. The next day will be business as usual, the world will not stop turning.
The next day is a Saturday so business will be bracing itself for the Monday markets and the massivedrop in the value of the pound which will suit your millionaire Brexiteers down to the ground, but your average Brit probably not so much. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2019, 06:06:39 PM
The next day is a Saturday so business will be bracing itself for the Monday markets and the massivedrop in the value of the pound which will suit your millionaire Brexiteers down to the ground, but your average Brit probably not so much.

Rubbish, the currency markets have already factored in BREXIT.  What the man in the street will enjoy though is foodstuffs from outside of the EU getting to them without EU tariffs.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2019, 06:09:25 PM
Rubbish, the currency markets have already factored in BREXIT.  What the man in the street will enjoy though is foodstuffs from outside of the EU getting to them without EU tariffs.
It’s rubbish the pound will plummet on April 1st 2019?  OK we’ll see.  What foodstuffs from outside the EU are you looking forward to getting cheaper?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2019, 06:10:19 PM
Please explain why giving the people the opportunity to vote for Theresa May’s deal or no deal or no Brexit is undemocratic, many thanks in advance.

All this twaddle about a second referendum or a people's vote.  Even if there was such a vote and even if a small majority voted to remain this time, we would be back to the same hung Parly.  The only sensible way forward is to leave now on the 29 March and do the deals afterwards. That's what happens in many divorces, they separate and do the deals after the actual split.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2019, 06:11:30 PM
All this twaddle about a second referendum or a people's vote.  Even if there was such a vote and even if a small majority voted to remain this time, we would be back to the same hung Parly.  The only sensible way forward is to leave now on the 29 March and do the deals afterwards. That's what happens in many divorces, they separate and do the deals afterwards.
You didn’t explain why giving the people a chance to vote on the final outcome was undemocratic.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2019, 06:14:45 PM
It’s rubbish the pound will plummet on April 1st 2019?  OK we’ll see.  What foodstuffs from outside the EU are you looking forward to getting cheaper?

Actually I can see the pound strengthen after we leave the EU on the 29th March as the future under WTO terms is extremely bright.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 14, 2019, 06:17:29 PM
You didn’t explain why giving the people a chance to vote on the final outcome was undemocratic.

The people voted to leave the EU so leave it must be.  There is no need whatsoever for a second vote.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2019, 06:20:54 PM
Actually I can see the pound strengthen after we leave the EU on the 29th March as the future under WTO terms is extremely bright.
Will we have to wear shades?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2019, 06:26:38 PM
The people voted to leave the EU so leave it must be.  There is no need whatsoever for a second vote.
You still didn’t explain why giving the people the opportunity to vote again was undemocratic.  What are Leavers so afraid of?  No deal would win wouldn’t it?  After all it’s “The Will Of The People”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 07:46:35 PM
Please explain why giving the people the opportunity to vote for Theresa May’s deal or no deal or no Brexit is undemocratic, many thanks in advance.

The people have already voted on this issue in a free and fair referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2019, 08:00:32 PM
The people have already voted on this issue in a free and fair referendum.
Why is it undemocratic to give them (us) the final say on whether to go for May’s version of Brexit, or something else?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 14, 2019, 09:27:10 PM
Why is it undemocratic to give them (us) the final say on whether to go for May’s version of Brexit, or something else?

Democracy means abiding by the result of the vote. That's what the politicians need to do rather than thinking up new questions. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 14, 2019, 09:32:18 PM
Democracy means abiding by the result of the vote. That's what the politicians need to do rather than thinking up new questions.
Why is it undemocratic to give people a vote?  Any ideas?  Didn’t think so.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 07:19:43 AM
Why is it undemocratic to give people a vote?  Any ideas?  Didn’t think so.

It's undemocratic to ignore the result of a vote. Another vote on this affair would be ognoring the result of the first vote.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2019, 08:01:24 AM
It's undemocratic to ignore the result of a vote. Another vote on this affair would be ognoring the result of the first vote.
That’s silly IMO.  We’re only in this mess because the government acted on “the will of the people” and triggered article 50.  Now we know precisely what the options are, how is it undemocratic to have a vote on them, unless you are saying that the people all voted for “no deal” nearly 3 years ago?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 08:02:17 AM
There was an interesting debate this morning. Lord Mandelson was predicting awful consequences if the UK left the EU without a deal. Piers Morgan reminded him of the awful consequences he predicted if the UK didn't join the Euro; which never occured. Why, he asked, should people believe Mandelson this time? A reasonable point.

Esther McVey then spoke on the subject and sounded like the voice of reason to me. She said the Remainers were trying to scare people just as they did during the referendum campaign. According to her we have no need to fear leaving without a deal. Preparations have been made and trading under WTO rules isn't the end of the world; much of our trade is already done that way, as is much of world trade.

I agree with Piers Morgan. He thinks the population were asked a question and promised that the result of the referendum would be honoured. The political classes need to stop patronising the electorate and carry out their democratically expressed will.

The problem, it seems to me, is not whether we stay in the EU or leave, the problem is the reluctance of politicians to uphold democratic ideals. It first emerged in the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn and it now seems that we have few if any politicians who actually believe in democracy. They only believe in it if it delivers what they want in my opinion.

Re Esther McVey, and others who find that sailing off into the sunset into the unknown without a deal is no big issue, IMO they're either blissfully ignorant or deliberately misleading.

"Trading under WTO rules" is an example - 163 member countries trade under WTO rules (otherwise they couldn't be members), but the crucial point is that they don't JUST trade on WTO terms. The WTO is a treaty (and dispute-resolution body) that establishes the skeleton of trade (but doesn't deal with the intricacies of trade in numerous services). The whole purpose of trade treaties and bi-multilateral agreements is to improve on the "worst-case scenario" which is... WTO terms.

As a member of the EU, the UK has tariff-free access to the biggest trading bloc in the world (the EU single market) and the customs union, and to 36 non-EU countries.

Another point is that, for some strange reason, a lot of these politicians seem to think that tariffs are the only issue and ignore the much more complicated issues of regulations, certification, customs, etc.

Beyond all that, leaving the EU isn't just about trade, either. What about all the areas of cooperation that the UK will no longer have access to (or will have limited access to), such as security, research, mutual recognition of academic  qualifications... even pet passports?

Many of the gripes that the media has been whingeing about for decades are domestic issues, not EU ones.

The EU certainly isn't perfect, but the UK is about to lose what was considerable influence in shaping it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2019, 08:05:38 AM
G-Unit, if you take “no Brexit” off the ballot card and hold a second referendum would you consider THAT undemocratic?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2019, 08:24:53 AM
Re Esther McVey, and others who find that sailing off into the sunset into the unknown without a deal is no big issue, IMO they're either blissfully ignorant or deliberately misleading.

"Trading under WTO rules" is an example - 163 member countries trade under WTO rules (otherwise they couldn't be members), but the crucial point is that they don't JUST trade on WTO terms. The WTO is a treaty (and dispute-resolution body) that establishes the skeleton of trade (but doesn't deal with the intricacies of trade in numerous services). The whole purpose of trade treaties and bi-multilateral agreements is to improve on the "worst-case scenario" which is... WTO terms.

As a member of the EU, the UK has tariff-free access to the biggest trading bloc in the world (the EU single market) and the customs union, and to 36 non-EU countries.

Another point is that, for some strange reason, a lot of these politicians seem to think that tariffs are the only issue and ignore the much more complicated issues of regulations, certification, customs, etc.

Beyond all that, leaving the EU isn't just about trade, either. What about all the areas of cooperation that the UK will no longer have access to (or will have limited access to), such as security, research, mutual recognition of academic  qualifications... even pet passports?

Many of the gripes that the media has been whingeing about for decades are domestic issues, not EU ones.

The EU certainly isn't perfect, but the UK is about to lose what was considerable influence in shaping it.
Well said. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 08:40:27 AM
Rubbish, the currency markets have already factored in BREXIT.  What the man in the street will enjoy though is foodstuffs from outside of the EU getting to them without EU tariffs.


Re the £, if by "factored in Brexit" you mean the fact that it is now close to the worst-ever FX rate from a UK perspective since the banking crisis, then yes, one could hope that it won't crash too much further (unless the UK crashes out with no deal).

Re your second point, trading with countries outside of the EU with which the EU has already negotiated treaties and agreements will mean WTO tariffs. So how do the higher WTO tariffs, coupled with a £ that is 30% weaker than it was before the referendum equate to cheaper foodstuffs, unless the UK allows dumping from countries with lower phytosanitary standards?

How will UK farmers who export their produce fare with all the extra admin and EU tariffs that will make their produce more expensive for EU consumers?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:01:31 AM
Another elephant in the room is what on earth are the UK plans for the service sector, which happens to make up 80% of the UK economy? Mystery...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:24:14 AM
It's undemocratic to ignore the result of a vote. Another vote on this affair would be ognoring the result of the first vote.

On one level, I can understand that perspective. However, I don't see it that way regarding this issue as no one seems to have had a clear idea of what Brexit actually meant. Even the politicians who are supposed to don't seem to know, let alone agree, so how could the ordinary voting public have done two years earlier?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:26:51 AM
All this twaddle about a second referendum or a people's vote.  Even if there was such a vote and even if a small majority voted to remain this time, we would be back to the same hung Parly.  The only sensible way forward is to leave now on the 29 March and do the deals afterwards. That's what happens in many divorces, they separate and do the deals after the actual split.

With what as bargaining chips?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:34:04 AM
It was as democratic as any general election, unless you think politicians know the truth and tell it when canpaigning. The truth is that no-one knows what the implications will be, they're all guessing no matter which point of view they have.

If you're going to break the vote down into areas you might as well start arguing about how counties or towns voted. The referendum was a UK referendum, so how parts of the UK voted isn't relevant.

There is a cut-off point for voting if people live abroad and they know it. Tough.

It might be worth remembering that the UK vored to join the Common Market originally, it never voted to join the European Union.

I'm aware of that. The EU didn't exist at the time, but the UK (of varying party flavours over time) has been one of the key players at the table shaping what it has become.

There appears to be a saying that for the EU, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu. (I don't fully agree with that in this instance as the EU appears to have bent over backwards to be as helpful as possible without crossing its own red lines.) However, once the UK is out, I wouldn't expect the EU to be quite so accommodating...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 09:40:28 AM
That’s silly IMO.  We’re only in this mess because the government acted on “the will of the people” and triggered article 50.  Now we know precisely what the options are, how is it undemocratic to have a vote on them, unless you are saying that the people all voted for “no deal” nearly 3 years ago?

It's not triggering Article 50 that created the mess, it's the fact that instead of preparing for leaving the EU the government spent the time trying to make a deal. Why? No-one asked them to do that.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:52:41 AM
It's not triggering Article 50 that created the mess, it's the fact that instead of preparing for leaving the EU the government spent the time trying to make a deal. Why? No-one asked them to do that.

Despite the fact that some politicians appeared to believe that Brexit somehow meant largely carrying on as before minus freedom of movement, and that mega deals on every issue would be ready to sign at 23:10 GMT, the current "deal" is simply about the terms of the divorce, with a non-binding waffly annexe about the future.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 10:04:13 AM
It's not triggering Article 50 that created the mess, it's the fact that instead of preparing for leaving the EU the government spent the time trying to make a deal. Why? No-one asked them to do that.

Hmmm. The referendum was advisory.

If the government had done its homework BEFORE a) the referendum and b) before triggering Article 50, the UK might not be in its current mess.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 10:15:44 AM
I wish someone could explain to me - with fact-based pointers - just how UK citizens will be better off than it currently is as a member.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 10:19:15 AM
On one level, I can understand that perspective. However, I don't see it that way regarding this issue as no one seems to have had a clear idea of what Brexit actually meant. Even the politicians who are supposed to don't seem to know, let alone agree, so how could the ordinary voting public have done two years earlier?

It seems to me that it's time for some truth. Those who don't know should say so. Those with a vested interest should reveal it. Those taking idealogical positions should admit it.

The electorate has been subjected to so much spin and misinformation in recent years that they don't believe what anyone says any more. Therefore they made their own minds up during the referendum campaign and voted for what they wanted.

The electorate was then castigated for the way they voted. Those whose job it was to inform didn't blame themselves for dailing to convince, they blamed the voters for failing to understand. They were told they were too stupid, too racist or too old to know what they were doing.

I think the voters remember that and won't be swayed by those people in future either. I'm not a Conservative but I've seen two recently speaking calmly and, I believe, sincerely; Esther McVey and Jacob Rees Mogg. If another vote becomes a reality it is my opinion that the voters will listen to those who are calm, sincere and reassuring, not the prophets of doom.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 10:34:16 AM
Hmmm. The referendum was advisory.

If the government had done its homework BEFORE a) the referendum and b) before triggering Article 50, the UK might not be in its current mess.

The referendum wasn't legally binding, but the government promised to implement the result in leaflets sent to every household. Ignoring the will of the people as Parliament is currently doing may be legal, but it's clearly not moral imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 15, 2019, 02:09:42 PM
The referendum wasn't legally binding, but the government promised to implement the result in leaflets sent to every household. Ignoring the will of the people as Parliament is currently doing may be legal, but it's clearly not moral imo.

I think Parliament has lost all credibility now, a general election is probably the only way forward.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 15, 2019, 03:40:56 PM
I think Parliament has lost all credibility now, a general election is probably the only way forward.

Who would you vote for though John?

Personally I don't like any of them.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 05:23:00 PM
It seems to me that it's time for some truth. Those who don't know should say so. Those with a vested interest should reveal it. Those taking idealogical positions should admit it.

The electorate has been subjected to so much spin and misinformation in recent years that they don't believe what anyone says any more. Therefore they made their own minds up during the referendum campaign and voted for what they wanted.

The electorate was then castigated for the way they voted. Those whose job it was to inform didn't blame themselves for dailing to convince, they blamed the voters for failing to understand. They were told they were too stupid, too racist or too old to know what they were doing.

I think the voters remember that and won't be swayed by those people in future either. I'm not a Conservative but I've seen two recently speaking calmly and, I believe, sincerely; Esther McVey and Jacob Rees Mogg. If another vote becomes a reality it is my opinion that the voters will listen to those who are calm, sincere and reassuring, not the prophets of doom.

I'd agree with most of that except that I'm not at all impressed by either Esther McVey or Jacob Rees Mogg (nor am I by a long list of other politicians for that matter).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 05:28:36 PM
I think Parliament has lost all credibility now, a general election is probably the only way forward.

How would a general election improve the general chaos with only 10 weeks to go until D-day?

Irrespective of who one may vote for in less turbulent times, who else could steer their way through the current Brexit clusterf**k? Extremists on either side of the political spectrum are the last thing the UK needs right now, IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2019, 06:06:49 PM
It's not triggering Article 50 that created the mess, it's the fact that instead of preparing for leaving the EU the government spent the time trying to make a deal. Why? No-one asked them to do that.
So everyone who voted to Leave wanted to do so immediately and without any negotiation, or to have their cake and eat it?  Do you have a cite for this?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2019, 06:07:55 PM
I think Parliament has lost all credibility now, a general election is probably the only way forward.
And in its place...?  Who is looking forward to a Brexit under a Labour government?  Anyone?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 06:15:23 PM
The referendum wasn't legally binding, but the government promised to implement the result in leaflets sent to every household. Ignoring the will of the people as Parliament is currently doing may be legal, but it's clearly not moral imo.

Personally, I don't find the lie on the side of the bus, nor waving the silly red flag that 70+ million Turks were about to invade the UK, very moral either.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2019, 06:23:39 PM
Personally, I don't find the lie on the side of the bus, nor waving the silly red flag that 70+ million Turks were about to invade the UK, very moral either.
Did you watch “An Uncivil War”?  It was terrific, and made you realise what a bunch of self-interested, reckless shysters were behind the Leave campaign.  IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 06:55:21 PM
Personally, I don't find the lie on the side of the bus, nor waving the silly red flag that 70+ million Turks were about to invade the UK, very moral either.

If you think your fellow citizens were taken in by the antics of either side you are sadly mistaken in my opinion. Don't underestimate the intelligence of the voters as the politicians did (and some still do).

I think our policians may need remedial English teaching. The man responsible for inventing the 'Brexit' word was just interviewed; a former adviser to Cameron. He was asked why he thought Parliament was so reluctant to leave the EU, given that the electorate voted to leave.

His answer was that 'no-one knows what 'out' means. It seems our politicians are unable to grasp that 'out' is the opposite of 'in'. It doesn't mean out of some things but still in others, or partly out but not just yet.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2019, 07:36:30 PM
If you think your fellow citizens were taken in by the antics of either side you are sadly mistaken in my opinion. Don't underestimate the intelligence of the voters as the politicians did (and some still do).

I think our policians may need remedial English teaching. The man responsible for inventing the 'Brexit' word was just interviewed; a former adviser to Cameron. He was asked why he thought Parliament was so reluctant to leave the EU, given that the electorate voted to leave.

His answer was that 'no-one knows what 'out' means. It seems our politicians are unable to grasp that 'out' is the opposite of 'in'. It doesn't mean out of some things but still in others, or partly out but not just yet.
But there are lots of versions of Out.  It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise.  When the referendum was held, all the leavers I spoke to expected there to be a deal like Norway’s or Canada’s or Switzerland’s, none of them expected to sever ties immediately with no attempt at a negotiated deal.  Where do you get off on the idea that you know what was in the minds of everyone who voted to leave?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on January 15, 2019, 07:53:21 PM
Corbyn tables vote of no confidence following catastrophic loss in Deal vote.

For: 202  Against: 432. (Majority: 230)

Who's going to get us out of this mess?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2019, 08:12:02 PM
Corbyn tables vote of no confidence following catastrophic loss in Deal vote.

For: 202  Against: 432. (Majority: 230)

Who's going to get us out of this mess?
Corbyn.   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:43:33 PM
Did you watch “An Uncivil War”?  It was terrific, and made you realise what a bunch of self-interested, reckless shysters were behind the Leave campaign.  IMO.

Not yet. Was it on Ch4? I watched the undercover Ch4 one about Cambridge Analytica. Quite something.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 15, 2019, 09:53:06 PM
But there are lots of versions of Out.  It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise.  When the referendum was held, all the leavers I spoke to expected there to be a deal like Norway’s or Canada’s or Switzerland’s, none of them expected to sever ties immediately with no attempt at a negotiated deal.  Where do you get off on the idea that you know what was in the minds of everyone who voted to leave?

I distinctly remember being told that various EU countries would be knocking down doors to keep UK trade. The EU will certainly be worse off post-Brexit, but the UK will be the biggest loser. EU countries can diversify tommorow to other members plus all the non-EU countries with which deals have been made.

The UK will have to start from scratch. And trade deals take years, not months. Even the relatively simple Canada deal took 6 years to negotiate and 2 to ratify, IIRC.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2019, 09:53:37 PM
Not yet. Was it on Ch4? I watched the undercover Ch4 one about Cambridge Analytica. Quite something.
Yes, Channel 4, well worth watching.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 15, 2019, 10:36:49 PM
But there are lots of versions of Out.  It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise.  When the referendum was held, all the leavers I spoke to expected there to be a deal like Norway’s or Canada’s or Switzerland’s, none of them expected to sever ties immediately with no attempt at a negotiated deal.  Where do you get off on the idea that you know what was in the minds of everyone who voted to leave?

There are only lots of versions of out because of political spin. The people voted to leace the EU. Parliament voted for bills which set out what was going to happen; that Article 50 was to be invoked and that if no deal had been agreed by the end of the two years then the UK would leave without one.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 15, 2019, 10:41:11 PM
There are only lots of versions of out because of political spin. The people voted to leace the EU. Parliament voted for bills which set out what was going to happen; that Article 50 was to be invoked and that if no deal had been agreed by the end of the two years then the UK would leave without one.
Simple question, as you seem to know exactly what all leavers voted for - was it to leave the EU without attempting to secure any sort of deal that would mitigate the potential downsides of leaving?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 12:08:19 AM
Daniel Finkelstein making my point exactly, just appeared in today’s Times.  An excerpt:

“Look at what has happened to the supporters of Brexit. Last night we learnt that people who once were quite pragmatic about the sort of relationship we should have with the European Union after leaving have become more doctrinaire. Only the hardest Brexit is now real Brexit. Nothing else will do. Any alternative is a betrayal.

These are people who once talked about how the EU was fine “when it was a common market”, or who said we might become members of the European Free Trade Association (Efta), or be like Norway. People who argued that we would arrange tariff-free trade with the EU. People who argued to remain in the customs union even after Brexit.

And now? They haven’t even noticed that they have shifted their position. Just as Sunstein’s theory predicted. They have spent so long knocking around with each other, egging each other on, setting each other purity tests, that they have drifted, drifted, drifted until we are in the ridiculous position where the prime minister negotiates to leave the EU and they turn it down.

Only chaos will do and they are willing to break their leader, break their government, break their party or even break Brexit as long as they don’t have to compromise. Forgetting, as they do, that they are being asked to compromise with positions they publicly advocated not that long ago”.

and

“The Brexiteer rebels are now saying something they never said in the referendum. That Brexit could mean leaving without any trade deal, breaking the Good Friday agreement, failing to settle financially with our continental allies and departing without a transition arrangement. They claim only this is truly Brexit. And only this is what “17.4 million people” voted for.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense. But all right, if they really believe that the majority of voters support this burn-it-all-down Brexit, let’s put it to the test. Let’s have another referendum and ask the electorate. If they are so confident that this is the will of the people, surely the Brexiteers won’t mind”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2019, 07:35:13 AM
Daniel Finkelstein making my point exactly, just appeared in today’s Times.  An excerpt:

“Look at what has happened to the supporters of Brexit. Last night we learnt that people who once were quite pragmatic about the sort of relationship we should have with the European Union after leaving have become more doctrinaire. Only the hardest Brexit is now real Brexit. Nothing else will do. Any alternative is a betrayal.

These are people who once talked about how the EU was fine “when it was a common market”, or who said we might become members of the European Free Trade Association (Efta), or be like Norway. People who argued that we would arrange tariff-free trade with the EU. People who argued to remain in the customs union even after Brexit.

And now? They haven’t even noticed that they have shifted their position. Just as Sunstein’s theory predicted. They have spent so long knocking around with each other, egging each other on, setting each other purity tests, that they have drifted, drifted, drifted until we are in the ridiculous position where the prime minister negotiates to leave the EU and they turn it down.

Only chaos will do and they are willing to break their leader, break their government, break their party or even break Brexit as long as they don’t have to compromise. Forgetting, as they do, that they are being asked to compromise with positions they publicly advocated not that long ago”.

and

“The Brexiteer rebels are now saying something they never said in the referendum. That Brexit could mean leaving without any trade deal, breaking the Good Friday agreement, failing to settle financially with our continental allies and departing without a transition arrangement. They claim only this is truly Brexit. And only this is what “17.4 million people” voted for.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense. But all right, if they really believe that the majority of voters support this burn-it-all-down Brexit, let’s put it to the test. Let’s have another referendum and ask the electorate. If they are so confident that this is the will of the people, surely the Brexiteers won’t mind”.

Were any names named? Were their contrdictionary points of view quoted? If not, then how do we know he's right about these people?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 08:21:32 AM
Were any names named? Were their contrdictionary points of view quoted? If not, then how do we know he's right about these people?
Because we have memories and can clearly recall that no one at the time of the referendum debate on the Leave side suggested leaving without negotiation to mitigate the possible negative consequences of such a decision.  All we heard about was Canada, Norway, having our cake and eat it, a deal with the EU would be the easiest thing in the world etc.  Are you now denying this too? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 08:22:41 AM
Theresa has yet again confirmed that she will invoke Article 50 by end of this year despite pressure being put on her by French President Hollande and others to rush it.  Cool, calm and collected Theresa will steer the ship on a true course  8((()*/
LOL.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 08:25:26 AM
She right on the ball and will make a success of it. The key negotiation will be on immigration versus the single market.
Negotiation?  But all leavers wanted to leave without any sort of deal I thought?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:01:25 AM
Boris Johnson didn’t appear to support leaving the EU with no deal and  trading on WTO terms with our nearest neighbours:

“Johnson called for Britain and the EU to negotiate a free-trade agreement – dubbed “Super Canada” – mirroring the deal the bloc signed with Ottawa in 2016.
It removed the vast majority of customs duties on exports crossing the Atlantic.
He conceded that negotiating such an agreement, which would aim for mutual recognition of standards to keep goods moving and also include services, may require extending any Brexit transition period beyond 2020”

I wonder what his position is now? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:04:57 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40667879/eu-trade-deal-easiest-in-human-history

Liam Fox seemed keen on the benefits of doing a trade deal with the EU, when did he advocate pre-referendum that a vote to leave should mean a vote to go onto WTO terms with the EU and not bother trying to get a deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2019, 09:33:10 AM
Because we have memories and can clearly recall that no one at the time of the referendum debate on the Leave side suggested leaving without negotiation to mitigate the possible negative consequences of such a decision.  All we heard about was Canada, Norway, having our cake and eat it, a deal with the EU would be the easiest thing in the world etc.  Are you now denying this too?

I am denying nothing, simply asking for cites in support of claims being made. I remember all sorts of things being said, but not by whomr or whether it was before or after the referendum, or the context in which those things were discussed. I prefer facts to sweeping generalisations.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:39:15 AM
 Daniel Hannan, a Tory MEP and one of the faces of Vote Leave, declared: "Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market." Boris Johnson, now foreign secretary, declared in the aftermath of the vote that Britain would retain access to the single market.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:41:52 AM
I am denying nothing, simply asking for cites in support of claims being made. I remember all sorts of things being said, but not by whomr or whether it was before or after the referendum, or the context in which those things were discussed. I prefer facts to sweeping generalisations.
As this subject seems to interest you perhaps you could spend an hour or two researching whether or not a vote to leave the EU was understood by all to mean no single market and no attempt at brokering a deal with the EU, switching automatically to WTO two years after triggering Article 50.  Who talked about that in the Leave campaign?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:44:45 AM
6 'Brexit does not mean the UK will leave the single market'

Daniel Hannan, the Tory MEP who is often described as the “godfather of Brexit” repeatedly assured voters that Britain would not leave the single market if they voted to leave the EU.

“Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market,” he said.

Owen Paterson, a Tory MP and a prominent campaigner for Vote Leave made similar claims.

“Only a madman would actually leave the market,” Mr Paterson said.

Since the referendum Ms May has repeatedly said that Brexit would mean leaving the single market.

Following the referendum Oliver Norgrove, a former Vote Leave staffer, who supports staying in the single market, urged people to check the official campaign’s website and official literature – noting that the things they had campaigned for were “utterly achievable in the EEA and make no mention at all of leaving the single market”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:45:58 AM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:47:20 AM
Let me know if you require any more evidence.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 09:54:39 AM
Oh, and this
https://www.markpack.org.uk/154126/leave-voters-expected-britain-stay-single-market/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 10:10:04 AM
As this subject seems to interest you perhaps you could spend an hour or two researching whether or not a vote to leave the EU was understood by all to mean no single market and no attempt at brokering a deal with the EU, switching automatically to WTO two years after triggering Article 50.  Who talked about that in the Leave campaign?

Point being that the UK will trade with the EU on our terms. We will continue to buy French and German cars, French and Italian wine and Belgium chocolate on our terms. If we don't like them there are alternatives.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2019, 10:41:56 AM
Boris Johnson didn’t appear to support leaving the EU with no deal and  trading on WTO terms with our nearest neighbours:

“Johnson called for Britain and the EU to negotiate a free-trade agreement – dubbed “Super Canada” – mirroring the deal the bloc signed with Ottawa in 2016.
It removed the vast majority of customs duties on exports crossing the Atlantic.
He conceded that negotiating such an agreement, which would aim for mutual recognition of standards to keep goods moving and also include services, may require extending any Brexit transition period beyond 2020”

I wonder what his position is now?

Boris has said lots of things over times...


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-secret-pro-eu-article-revealed-expressing-doubts-brexit-a7363781.html


https://www.businessinsider.fr/us/boris-johnson-brexit-speech-changed-his-mind-remain-2018-2
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 10:52:53 AM
Point being that the UK will trade with the EU on our terms. We will continue to buy French and German cars, French and Italian wine and Belgium chocolate on our terms. If we don't like them there are alternatives.
"Our terms" meaning considerably more expensive.  What marvellous terms they will be.  Oh well.  I'm sure the British public will be delighted when prices go up on all of these things, it's what they voted for after all.  Meanwhile they will be able to enjoy cheap foodstuffs from outside the EU like chlorine washed chicken (If Trump decides to do a trade deal with us, and it's a big if).  I say “they” as I don’t eat chicken, chlorinated or otherwise, and prefer my food to have done as few airmiles as possible.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2019, 12:09:29 PM
"Our terms" meaning considerably more expensive.  What marvellous terms they will be.  Oh well.  I'm sure the British public will be delighted when prices go up on all of these things, it's what they voted for after all.  Meanwhile they will be able to enjoy cheap foodstuffs from outside the EU like chlorine washed chicken (If Trump decides to do a trade deal with us, and it's a big if).  I say “they” as I don’t eat chicken, chlorinated or otherwise, and prefer my food to have done as few air miles as possible.

A small price to pay initially for getting out of what is effectively a German Superstate by the back door.

The food standards in the UK will not be compromised following Brexit, this is simply scaremongering oka project fear.  Goods will inevitably be cheaper in the long run as countries begin to trade with the UK on WTO rules.

Having seen he way the EU has destroyed Spain the sooner we get out the better.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 12:17:51 PM
A small price to pay initially for getting out of what is effectively a German Superstate by the back door.

The food standards in the UK will not be compromised following Brexit, this is simply scaremongering oka project fear.  Goods will inevitably be cheaper in the long run as countries begin to trade with the UK on WTO rules.

Having seen he way the EU has destroyed Spain the sooner we get out the better.
How you have the nerve to talk about "scaremongering" in the same breath as emoting about "German Superstate" and "destroying Spain" is beyond me...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 12:44:43 PM
How you have the nerve to talk about "scaremongering" in the same breath as emoting about "German Superstate" and "destroying Spain" is beyond me...

Are you denying the influence Germans have in the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 12:48:02 PM
Are you denying the influence Germans have in the EU?
Of course I'm not denying they are one of the key players in the EU and therefore influential.  What does John mean by the EU being a German Superstate then?  I suppose you don't see that as hysterical hyperbole or scaremongering.   I would call it Germanophobia, with its roots in a deep fear and mistrust of the Germans because of two world wars. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 01:00:07 PM
Of course I'm not denying they are one of the key players in the EU and therefore influential.  What does John mean by the EU being a German Superstate then?  I suppose you don't see that as hysterical hyperbole or scaremongering.   I would call it Germanophobia, with its roots in a deep fear and mistrust of the Germans because of two world wars.

Sir Bill Cash MP, speaking in Parliament on the 'Withdrawal Agreement', says the EU is nothing more than an attempt to create a German Superstate.  I happen to agree with Sir Bill, Germany has got too big for its boots again and should have its powers in Europe trimmed.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2019, 01:14:19 PM
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html

Boris Johnson backtracking madly following the referendum. He seemed to be trying to soften the blow for some reason.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 01:22:27 PM
Boris Johnson backtracking madly following the referendum. He seemed to be trying to soften the blow for some reason.

He does a lot of backtracking does Boris.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2019, 01:22:34 PM
Does anyone think Theresa May will lose the confidence vote tonight.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 01:23:58 PM
Does anyone think Theresa May will lose the confidence vote tonight.

Not a chance. The DUP have said they will support her as they don't want Jeremy Corbyn in power and the Conservatives will not vote to oust themselves either.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2019, 01:24:13 PM
Oh, and this
https://www.markpack.org.uk/154126/leave-voters-expected-britain-stay-single-market/

They seem to have asked those who voted leave if they voted to leave the single market as well as the EU. The one third who said yes probably knew the two things were linked. Did the other two thirds understand this? Even Boris Johnson seemed to think the UK could pick and choose which EU institutions they left or stayed in. If the politicians didn't understand what the vote was about they need to resign imo.


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 16, 2019, 01:28:23 PM
Not a chance. The DUP have said they will support her as they don't want Jeremy Corbyn in power and the Conservatives will not vote to oust themselves either.

Corbyn must have thought he was in with a chance.  Anna Soubry just called him,  "the most useless leader of the opposition they have ever had"  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 01:38:48 PM
Sir Bill Cash MP, speaking in Parliament on the 'Withdrawal Agreement', says the EU is nothing more than an attempt to create a German Superstate.  I happen to agree with Sir Bill, Germany has got too big for its boots again and should have its powers in Europe trimmed.
Hyperbole and scaremongering is not limited to Remainers or people on internet forums then. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 01:40:34 PM
Does anyone think Theresa May will lose the confidence vote tonight.
The vote is not in Theresa May but in the government, and no, I don't think the government will lose the vote as most sane MPs realise that a general election now with the prospect of Chairman Corbyn in charge of Brexit is enough to cause an outbeak of mass suicide amongst the electorate. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 01:42:35 PM
They seem to have asked those who voted leave if they voted to leave the single market as well as the EU. The one third who said yes probably knew the two things were linked. Did the other two thirds understand this? Even Boris Johnson seemed to think the UK could pick and choose which EU institutions they left or stayed in. If the politicians didn't understand what the vote was about they need to resign imo.
Are you now suggesting that the ever-so bright leave voters and politicians didn't understand what they were voting for?  Surely not!!  You seem to have done a complete volte-face, and haven't even had the decency to thank me for my numerous cites earlier.  No change there then!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 02:06:04 PM
Boris Johnson backtracking madly following the referendum. He seemed to be trying to soften the blow for some reason.
That's because being a bright lad he knows  deep down what a disaster leaving the EU will be for our country economically
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 16, 2019, 02:32:45 PM
Are you now suggesting that the ever-so bright leave voters and politicians didn't understand what they were voting for?  Surely not!!  You seem to have done a complete volte-face, and haven't even had the decency to thank me for my numerous cites earlier.  No change there then!

The voters voted to leave the EU. The single market didn't appear on the ballot paper, so why should they know if they voted to leave that? Obviously they did, because it's one part of the EU. I never said they were experts on the various parts of the EU; I'm certainly not. What I did say is that they are bright enough to recognise spin and scaremongering when it occurs.

Boris Johnson isn't a details man either, but has less justification for his ignorance.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 03:26:58 PM
The voters voted to leave the EU. The single market didn't appear on the ballot paper, so why should they know if they voted to leave that? Obviously they did, because it's one part of the EU. I never said they were experts on the various parts of the EU; I'm certainly not. What I did say is that they are bright enough to recognise spin and scaremongering when it occurs.

Boris Johnson isn't a details man either, but has less justification for his ignorance.

What you did say was this:

"It's not triggering Article 50 that created the mess, it's the fact that instead of preparing for leaving the EU the government spent the time trying to make a deal. Why? No-one asked them to do that".

Which would suggest to me (unless I'm very much mistaken) that you think the government was wrong to try and broker any sort of trade deal with the EU, but instead revert to WTO terms after two years.  This you seemed to think is what people voted for when they voted leave, and that no one wanted a negotiation with Brussels.  However, in all the spin and scaremongering from the Leave campaign where was it ever spelt out that this is precisely what was being advocated? Many prominent leavers are now claiming that no deal is what they always wanted all along, having conveniently forgotten what they'd previously advocated in the run up to and immediate aftermath of the referendum.. That was the point being made by the Daniel Finkelstein article which I posted and which you called into question, demanding cites and names.  Now that I have provided those you seem to be deflecting somewhat rather than acknowledging that both he and I have a valid point.  I expected nothing more tbh. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2019, 03:34:17 PM
Point being that the UK will trade with the EU on our terms. We will continue to buy French and German cars, French and Italian wine and Belgium chocolate on our terms. If we don't like them there are alternatives.

"Our terms"?? What do you mean by that?

The UK will not be able to pick and choose which products it wants from which EU countries, for the simple reason that the EU is a trading bloc. There's either a global deal with the entire EU (which generally takes around 10 years, although perhaps a little less in the case of a former member if it remains closely aligned) or it's WTO terms.

If, as an independent WTO member, the UK offers concessions to the EU on specific goods, it will have to offer the same terms to every other WTO member.

That doesn't even touch on issues surrounnding the service industry (80% of the UK economy) nor the mess facing UK exporters to the EU (or elsewhere).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 03:48:56 PM
Corbyn must have thought he was in with a chance.  Anna Soubry just called him,  "the most useless leader of the opposition they have ever had"  @)(++(*

With all the mess that the Tory's are in you would have expected a competent Labour leader to make inroads into the polls.  He does not appear to be a competent Labour leader IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 03:57:34 PM
With all the mess that the Tory's are in you would have expected a competent Labour leader to make inroads into the polls.  He does not appear to be a competent Labour leader IMO.
You can say that again. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 04:03:36 PM
With all the mess that the Tory's are in you would have expected a competent Labour leader to make inroads into the polls.  He does not appear to be a competent Labour leader IMO.

Corbyn has spent the last two years doing all he can to get a Labour government. He isn't interested in doing any deals with the EU or offering any support to the government.  He is pursuing a scorched earth policy but it won't work, Theresa's government will win the no confidence motion tonight and carry on regardless making Corbyn look weak and a non entity.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 04:05:22 PM
Corbyn has spent the last two years doing all he can to get a Labour government. He isn't interested in doing any deals with the EU or offering any support to the government.  He is pursuing a scorched earth policy but it won't work, Theresa's government will win the no confidence motion tonight and carry on regardless making Corbyn look weak and incompetent.

All he wants is power - at whatever cost to the country. He is so clear on this IMO. I have read too that he is actually a Brexit supporter but Jeremy comes first - the country somewhere down at the bottom, at least that is how it would appear to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 16, 2019, 04:07:19 PM
With all the mess that the Tory's are in you would have expected a competent Labour leader to make inroads into the polls.  He does not appear to be a competent Labour leader IMO.

I'm afraid I can't cope with Corbyn any more than Farage.

He could have clearly supported Remain or even a 2nd referendum or a revocation of Art. 50, but even now is shuffling around. From what I've read, a reason could be because he has grand plans of nationalising whatever he can (true or not) and the EU has conditions surrounding that.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 04:11:27 PM
Corbyn has spent the last two years doing all he can to get a Labour government. He isn't interested in doing any deals with the EU or offering any support to the government.  He is pursuing a scorched earth policy but it won't work, Theresa's government will win the no confidence motion tonight and carry on regardless making Corbyn look weak and a non entity.
He will be forced into a corner to push for a Second Referendum, which he doesn't want to do.  Poor love.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 16, 2019, 04:43:32 PM
He will be forced into a corner to push for a Second Referendum, which he doesn't want to do.  Poor love.

A second referendum won't change anything because parliament will still want their say in the end and we all know how it is split right up the middle.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 04:48:02 PM
A second referendum won't change anything because parliament will still want their say in the end and we all know how it is split right up the middle.

I gather it is not actually split down the middle it is around 67% remain according to Radio 4 yesterday.    Which means IMO that no type of Brexit will ever get past it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 16, 2019, 05:51:10 PM
Love this twitter account, and the work they are doing to remind us all of the duplicity and stupidity of people like Jacob Rees Mogg, Dominic Raab et al
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys?lang=en-gb
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 16, 2019, 06:00:01 PM
I gather it is not actually split down the middle it is around 67% remain according to Radio 4 yesterday.    Which means IMO that no type of Brexit will ever get past it.

They are pretty hot on knowing what they don't want but no great shakes on knowing what they do want. Or at least articulating their preferences to the public at large. But then most politicians see the GPB as "useful idiots"..imho.
This makes interesting reading:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 16, 2019, 06:21:37 PM
I have just heard a labour front bencher, quoted on Radio 4, say that it doesn't matter what deal Theresa May had come up with it was Labour policy to vote no because they want a general election.

Are any of the UK parliamentarians actually thinking of the population or only themselves?

Answers on a postcard....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 16, 2019, 07:17:21 PM
I have just heard a labour front bencher, quoted on Radio 4, say that it doesn't matter what deal Theresa May had come up with it was Labour policy to vote no because they want a general election.

Are any of the UK parliamentarians actually thinking of the population or only themselves?

Answers on a postcard....

You could just about do it on the stamp in 24pt....... ?{)(**
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2019, 08:49:52 AM
I have just heard a labour front bencher, quoted on Radio 4, say that it doesn't matter what deal Theresa May had come up with it was Labour policy to vote no because they want a general election.

Are any of the UK parliamentarians actually thinking of the population or only themselves?

Answers on a postcard....

I'm not sure Corbyn is that popular even within his own party...
https://news.sky.com/story/what-is-corbyns-next-move-after-unsuccessful-no-confidence-vote-11609257
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 17, 2019, 09:43:46 AM
They are pretty hot on knowing what they don't want but no great shakes on knowing what they do want. Or at least articulating their preferences to the public at large. But then most politicians see the GPB as "useful idiots"..imho.
This makes interesting reading:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21

Thanks for that, well laid out.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2019, 10:13:51 AM
They are pretty hot on knowing what they don't want but no great shakes on knowing what they do want. Or at least articulating their preferences to the public at large. But then most politicians see the GPB as "useful idiots"..imho.
This makes interesting reading:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/internationaltrade/articles/whodoestheuktradewith/2017-02-21

A very interesting read. It explains why the motor and financial services sectors have been mentioned so often. As the largest exporters to the EU they are likely to be more affected, but there are other businesses who don't seem worried at all, not even by a no deal Brexit.

 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 17, 2019, 01:28:55 PM
I'm not sure Corbyn is that popular even within his own party...
https://news.sky.com/story/what-is-corbyns-next-move-after-unsuccessful-no-confidence-vote-11609257

I like to watch Sir Keir Starmer's face when Mr Corbyn is speaking!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2019, 01:44:11 PM
I'm not sure Corbyn is that popular even within his own party...
https://news.sky.com/story/what-is-corbyns-next-move-after-unsuccessful-no-confidence-vote-11609257

If you mean his Parliamentary Party he never was popular as we saw after he became leader. He is sticking with Labour's plan as decided at it's Party conference. Labour's priority is to force a General Election.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 17, 2019, 03:47:50 PM
If you mean his Parliamentary Party he never was popular as we saw after he became leader. He is sticking with Labour's plan as decided at it's Party conference. Labour's priority is to force a General Election.

I have read and also heard on the news that Jeremy Corbyn's Momentum people have been forcing moderate Labour MP's and Councillors out of office.      IMO he is a Marxist and supporter of terrorists and I never want him as PM.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 17, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
I gather it is not actually split down the middle it is around 67% remain according to Radio 4 yesterday.    Which means IMO that no type of Brexit will ever get past it.

Parliament no longer represents the people and that is a dangerous position for any country to be in.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 17, 2019, 04:12:54 PM
Parliament no longer represents the people and that is a dangerous position for any country to be in.

I have never had much faith in MPs but never less than now as they seem to be insulting voters and ignoring their wishes.   It is very dangerous and that we will all suffer because of them whether we voted remain or brexit.

I voted remain but if it we had another vote (this so called "peoples vote" I would vote for Brexit.    Why? I was a waverer anyway at the time, and the way the government, parliament and the EU also have treated voters has been so shabby I now want OUT of the lot of em.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 17, 2019, 05:20:16 PM
I have never had much faith in MPs but never less than now as they seem to be insulting voters and ignoring their wishes.   It is very dangerous and that we will all suffer because of them whether we voted remain or brexit.

I voted remain but if it we had another vote (this so called "peoples vote" I would vote for Brexit.    Why? I was a waverer anyway at the time, and the way the government, parliament and the EU also have treated voters has been so shabby I now want OUT of the lot of em.

I think a lot of people feel like you, totally disillusioned with the lot of them. If they get another vote they will want to teach the politicians a lesson, and voting out with no deal would be the obvious way to do it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Alice Purjorick on January 17, 2019, 07:04:21 PM
Donald Tusk said:

"If a deal is impossible, and no one wants no deal, then who will finally have the courage to say what the only positive solution is?"

Fair comment I suppose.

To my list of disliked overused misused expressions running at [so far]:
"Grass roots"
"Gate" as a suffix to any random seemingly contentious "secret" that has been given away.
"Winter of discontent" used in the context of actual season and not how Bill Wagstaff penned it originally.
"[un]fit for purpose". When used outside I Chem E Conditions of Contract.
"our" as an unnecessary prefix as in "our NHS".
I add "peoples" as in "Peoples Princess" and "peoples vote".

They've turned the language upside down and they've aimed it out the door
What 'ave they done, can anyone speak English anymore ?


The bloody peoples had a vote on EU in or out and don't need another one.
End of rant  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 17, 2019, 07:22:37 PM
A very interesting read. It explains why the motor and financial services sectors have been mentioned so often. As the largest exporters to the EU they are likely to be more affected, but there are other businesses who don't seem worried at all, not even by a no deal Brexit.
Does that include British farmers?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 17, 2019, 07:24:23 PM
I think a lot of people feel like you, totally disillusioned with the lot of them. If they get another vote they will want to teach the politicians a lesson, and voting out with no deal would be the obvious way to do it.
Then the GBP are even more stupid than previously feared.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 18, 2019, 09:39:47 AM
Then the GBP are even more stupid than previously feared.  @)(++(*

If we leave the EU with no deal and thrive outside the EU you're going to look very silly, aren't you?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 18, 2019, 05:02:59 PM
If we leave the EU with no deal and thrive outside the EU you're going to look very silly, aren't you?

Are you aware of any plan that anyone has put forward, let alone is ready to implement (by someone who actually understands everything that needs to be put in place) that would enable the UK to thrive with a no-deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 18, 2019, 05:36:15 PM
Are you aware of any plan that anyone has put forward, let alone is ready to implement (by someone who actually understands everything that needs to be put in place) that would enable the UK to thrive with a no-deal?

The UK can function if there's no deal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

Farmers, for example, won't find their CAP payments coming to a halt on 29th March; the UK government will pay them instead.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 18, 2019, 06:01:09 PM
The UK can function if there's no deal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

Farmers, for example, won't find their CAP payments coming to a halt on 29th March; the UK government will pay them instead.

Out of the £350m per week for the NHS on the side of the bus?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 18, 2019, 06:59:59 PM
If we leave the EU with no deal and thrive outside the EU you're going to look very silly, aren't you?
If people vote for something that experts have warned will possibly wreck the economy solely to “teach politicians a lesson” then they are beyond stupid IMO. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 18, 2019, 07:13:24 PM
The UK can function if there's no deal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

Farmers, for example, won't find their CAP payments coming to a halt on 29th March; the UK government will pay them instead.
What the hell is Michael Gove (Leaver) on about then?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/03/no-deal-brexit-would-cause-turbulence-for-farmers-says-gove
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 18, 2019, 07:38:25 PM
What the hell is Michael Gove (Leaver) on about then?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/03/no-deal-brexit-would-cause-turbulence-for-farmers-says-gove

Most of our food exports consist of highly processed products rather than raw commidities. That suggests that farmers sell their products elsewhere.
 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515048/food-farming-stats-release-07apr16.pdf
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 18, 2019, 07:52:39 PM
Most of our food exports consist of highly processed products rather than raw commidities. That suggests that farmers sell their products elsewhere.
 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515048/food-farming-stats-release-07apr16.pdf
And?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 06:39:06 AM
If people vote for something that experts have warned will possibly wreck the economy solely to “teach politicians a lesson” then they are beyond stupid IMO.


Monty Python and the Black Knight...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 08:11:05 AM
Most of our food exports consist of highly processed products rather than raw commidities. That suggests that farmers sell their products elsewhere.
 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515048/food-farming-stats-release-07apr16.pdf

You might be right, but I don't see how your second statement necessarily follows from the first one.

Aside from domestic consumption and exports of raw commodities, presumably some farmers sell raw ingredients (off the top of my head: the grains needed for Scotch whisky, for example) to UK manufacturers who then export the processed products.

I think it would be misleading to assume that those farmers (the raw ingredient suppliers to UK manufacturers) wouldn't be affected by a no-deal. IMO, they would be as tariffs for non-EU members on processed foods are generally considerably higher than for "raw" (fresh / frozen) produce.

Norway (non-EU, but with EFTA benefits) exports fresh salmon to Poland for processing. Lower wages are one factor but so is the export tariff which is lower (2% for fresh / frozen) versus 13% if it were to export the salmon already smoked. As an EU member, Poland can then export the smoked salmon to other EU countries tariff-free.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-norway-salmon/norway-satisfies-eu-smoked-salmon-appetite-through-polish-back-door-idUKKCN0WI1VH

There is also the issue of tariff quotas (higher tariffs for nationwide exports of whatever over a certain quota), plus seasonal tariffs on fresh produce. I'll add a link if I find it again, but for example the tariffs for lemons / oranges from non-EU countries are much higher when EU produce (e.g. from Spain) is ripe for picking (winter for lemons). Off-season (summer in the northern hemisphere) tariffs for non-EU countries are lower.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 08:16:47 AM
If people vote for something that experts have warned will possibly wreck the economy solely to “teach politicians a lesson” then they are beyond stupid IMO.

Unless, of course, the 'experts' are exaggerating or just plain wrong. If people don't trust them it might be their own fault, too.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-real-reason-that-we-don-t-trust-experts-a7126536.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 19, 2019, 08:34:44 AM
Unless, of course, the 'experts' are exaggerating or just plain wrong. If people don't trust them it might be their own fault, too.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-real-reason-that-we-don-t-trust-experts-a7126536.html
But you are a firm advocate of deferring to expert opinion, at least in certain fields, are you not?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 08:56:32 AM

Just a general article on trading on WTO terms.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/brexit-wto-terms-rules-theresa-may-deal-eu-world-trade-organisation-peter-lilley-a8668311.html

And a link to a short and accessible booklet: What would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean?
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean.pdf
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 09:13:22 AM
You might be right, but I don't see how your second statement necessarily follows from the first one.

Aside from domestic consumption and exports of raw commodities, presumably some farmers sell raw ingredients (off the top of my head: the grains needed for Scotch whisky, for example) to UK manufacturers who then export the processed products.

I think it would be misleading to assume that those farmers (the raw ingredient suppliers to UK manufacturers) wouldn't be affected by a no-deal. IMO, they would be as tariffs for non-EU members on processed foods are generally considerably higher than for "raw" (fresh / frozen) produce.

Norway (non-EU, but with EFTA benefits) exports fresh salmon to Poland for processing. Lower wages are one factor but so is the export tariff which is lower (2% for fresh / frozen) versus 13% if it were to export the salmon already smoked. As an EU member, Poland can then export the smoked salmon to other EU countries tariff-free.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-norway-salmon/norway-satisfies-eu-smoked-salmon-appetite-through-polish-back-door-idUKKCN0WI1VH

There is also the issue of tariff quotas (higher tariffs for nationwide exports of whatever over a certain quota), plus seasonal tariffs on fresh produce. I'll add a link if I find it again, but for example the tariffs for lemons / oranges from non-EU countries are much higher when EU produce (e.g. from Spain) is ripe for picking (winter for lemons). Off-season (summer in the northern hemisphere) tariffs for non-EU countries are lower.

Whiskey is a good example as it makes up more than 20% of the UK's food and drink exports. 30% of the Scotch exported goes to the EU.

It's a bad exanple because in the event of a no deal Brexit Scotch Whiskey would not be subkect to EU tariffs under WTO rules.

It was once made with barley grown in Scotland, but due to the world wide demand for it the barley now comes from Englabd (Lincolnshire),Denmark or Germany.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-25863920
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-43009106
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 09:21:44 AM
But you are a firm advocate of deferring to expert opinion, at least in certain fields, are you not?

I have, on occasion, objected to criticism of experts by people with no knowledge whatsoever of the subject. That doesm't mean that all experts are always wrong or always right. On the subject of the effects of a no deal Brexit the expert opinions are full of 'perhaps' 'possibles' and 'maybes'. They're not certain that their views are correct, so why should the public accept their views as correct?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 09:59:40 AM
I have, on occasion, objected to criticism of experts by people with no knowledge whatsoever of the subject. That doesm't mean that all experts are always wrong or always right. On the subject of the effects of a no deal Brexit the expert opinions are full of 'perhaps' 'possibles' and 'maybes'. They're not certain that their views are correct, so why should the public accept their views as correct?

I don't have a problem with experts admitting that their views might not be accurate. I actually prefer that to those who claim to be certain.

A bit of the beast you know versus the one you don't, though.  If you jump off a cliff there is always the possibility that your clothes might snag on a tree and halt your fall into the abyss. But what are the advantages of jumping in the first place?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 10:53:23 AM
I don't have a problem with experts admitting that their views might not be accurate. I actually prefer that to those who claim to be certain.

A bit of the beast you know versus the one you don't, though.  If you jump off a cliff there is always the possibility that your clothes might snag on a tree and halt your fall into the abyss. But what are the advantages of jumping in the first place?

It seems a majority wanted to get away from the beast they knew regardless of the consequences. I can see both benefits and drawbacks with EU membership. Some may have voted leave for frivolous reasons, but the same could be said of remain voters.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 19, 2019, 11:46:16 AM
It seems a majority wanted to get away from the beast they knew regardless of the consequences. I can see both benefits and drawbacks with EU membership. Some may have voted leave for frivolous reasons, but the same could be said of remain voters.

I would say the vast majority of those who voted hadn't got a clue as to the benefits and drawbacks of membership
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 19, 2019, 01:12:48 PM
I would say the vast majority of those who voted hadn't got a clue as to the benefits and drawbacks of membership

Amongst the people I know who voted, Leavers certainly didn't. Despite the occasional gripe about bureaucracy and MEP salaries / fringe benefits, I can't think of anyone who didn't realise the main benefits. A few other people I know  didn't bother to vote, mainly because they didn't think it had the faintest chance of passing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 19, 2019, 04:16:35 PM
Amongst the people I know who voted, Leavers certainly didn't. Despite the occasional gripe about bureaucracy and MEP salaries / fringe benefits, I can't think of anyone who didn't realise the main benefits. A few other people I know  didn't bother to vote, mainly because they didn't think it had the faintest chance of passing.

People see no benefit whatsoever in being part of a German Superstate, I certainly don't and never will do.  The UK is much better off trading with the world on WTO rules, the EU policy of protectionism resulting in ridiculous tariffs on non EU countries is appalling.  Every wealthy European country has been damaged by the EU as it attempts to make one size fits all.

As for BREXIT, most people want to get the hell out of the EU and by 29 March at latest. The thought of extending this fiasco by up to another year is just pathetic as is Labours call for a second referendum which won't solve anything.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 19, 2019, 05:15:06 PM
People see no benefit whatsoever in being part of a German Superstate, I certainly don't and never will do.  The UK is much better off trading with the world on WTO rules, the EU policy of protectionism resulting in ridiculous tariffs on non EU countries is appalling.  Every wealthy European country has been damaged by the EU as it attempts to make one size fits all.

As for BREXIT, most people want to get the hell out of the EU and by 29 March at latest. The thought of extending this fiasco by up to another year is just pathetic as is Labours call for a second referendum which won't solve anything.

It's like a divorce.... It's going to be difficult at first but much better in the long run...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 19, 2019, 05:45:39 PM
I have, on occasion, objected to criticism of experts by people with no knowledge whatsoever of the subject. That doesm't mean that all experts are always wrong or always right. On the subject of the effects of a no deal Brexit the expert opinions are full of 'perhaps' 'possibles' and 'maybes'. They're not certain that their views are correct, so why should the public accept their views as correct?
Because expert opinion is worth more than non expert opinion, or don’t you agree?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 19, 2019, 05:49:07 PM
People see no benefit whatsoever in being part of a German Superstate, I certainly don't and never will do.  The UK is much better off trading with the world on WTO rules, the EU policy of protectionism resulting in ridiculous tariffs on non EU countries is appalling.  Every wealthy European country has been damaged by the EU as it attempts to make one size fits all.

As for BREXIT, most people want to get the hell out of the EU and by 29 March at latest. The thought of extending this fiasco by up to another year is just pathetic as is Labours call for a second referendum which won't solve anything.
So the EU is just a mask for the German Superstate but all wealthy countries in Europe have been damaged by the EU... *%87. Can you please privide a cite for “most people want to get the hell out of the EU by March 29th at latest” please.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 19, 2019, 05:50:54 PM
It's like a divorce.... It's going to be difficult at first but much better in the long run...
I can see the parallels but most divorces are painful and almost always leave both parties poorer than they would be if they stayed married, with no guarantees of future happiness.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 07:04:19 PM
Because expert opinion is worth more than non expert opinion, or don’t you agree?

Therefore 'expert' Mark Williams-Thomas's opinion that Madeleine McCann woke and wandered is worth more than the opinion of her parents that she was abducted from her bed.
 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 19, 2019, 07:05:22 PM
I can see the parallels but most divorces are painful and almost always leave both parties poorer than they would be if they stayed married, with no guarantees of future happiness.

 Nope ..divorces can be painful  but dont always leave both parties poorer in the long term...divorce is a good analogy...it takes courage to admit to change..The uk didnt commit to the euro...so was never really committed to europe....i think and hope we will be better outside europe
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 19, 2019, 07:08:53 PM
Nope ..divorces can be painful  but dont always leave both parties poorer in the long term...divorce is a good analogy...it takes courage to admit to change..The uk didnt commit to the euro...so was never really committed to europe....i think and hope we will be better outside europe
I must admit since deciding to separate recently from my partner I do see Brexit in a slightly different light but I will definitely be financially worse off, unless I marry a millionaire next. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 19, 2019, 08:43:55 PM
I must admit since deciding to separate recently from my partner I do see Brexit in a slightly different light but I will definitely be financially worse off, unless I marry a millionaire next.

Can't you survive on the proceeds of your business?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 19, 2019, 09:59:24 PM
Can't you survive on the proceeds of your business?
Depends.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 19, 2019, 10:58:06 PM
I must admit since deciding to separate recently from my partner I do see Brexit in a slightly different light but I will definitely be financially worse off, unless I marry a millionaire next.

That would be your choice. You chose to separate (so you say) from your partner. It may actually  (if true) be the best thing you ever did.

How will you know....until you do it?

Your shop may actually make more money than you have expected if WTO terms are applied. Is your trade mainly with the USA - a better deal with them may make you more profitable.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 19, 2019, 11:55:57 PM
That would be your choice. You chose to separate (so you say) from your partner. It may actually  (if true) be the best thing you ever did.

How will you know....until you do it?

Your shop may actually make more money than you have expected if WTO terms are applied. Is your trade mainly with the USA - a better deal with them may make you more profitable.
What shop is that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 20, 2019, 12:25:02 AM
Therefore 'expert' Mark Williams-Thomas's opinion that Madeleine McCann woke and wandered is worth more than the opinion of her parents that she was abducted from her bed.
If you gave birth to a child and lived with it for four years would you say a complete stranger was more of an expert about the child’s capabilities and likely behaviour than you were?  If you believe that is the case then by all means defer to the complete stranger.  IMO no one is more of an expert about their own child than its parents.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 06:51:18 AM
If you gave birth to a child and lived with it for four years would you say a complete stranger was more of an expert about the child’s capabilities and likely behaviour than you were?  If you believe that is the case then by all means defer to the complete stranger.  IMO no one is more of an expert about their own child than its parents.

So expert opinion isn't always of more value.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 20, 2019, 08:32:09 AM
So expert opinion isn't always of more value.
The expert in your example was Kate McCann, so her opinion was of greater value, did you not understand my post?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 09:49:48 AM
People see no benefit whatsoever in being part of a German Superstate, I certainly don't and never will do. The UK is much better off trading with the world on WTO rules, the EU policy of protectionism resulting in ridiculous tariffs on non EU countries is appalling.  Every wealthy European country has been damaged by the EU as it attempts to make one size fits all.

As for BREXIT, most people want to get the hell out of the EU and by 29 March at latest. The thought of extending this fiasco by up to another year is just pathetic as is Labours call for a second referendum which won't solve anything.

What makes you think that remaining in the EU means being part of a "German Superstate"?

In order of the number of EP seats: the UK has the 3rd highest number of EP seats out of the 28 members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union

Where does this idea of a "German Superstate" come from? The only media in which I've read that notion are far-right outlets...

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 10:41:19 AM
The expert in your example was Kate McCann, so her opinion was of greater value, did you not understand my post?

We know that Madeleine was prone to waking.
We know that both parents first thoughts were that she had gone into their bedroom.
We know that Madeleine had run away earlier in the week.
We know that the parents left the door open so she could come and find them if she woke.

Then her mother says no way would she wander off. If there's one thing I know, it's that children constantly surprise their parents. Those who say 'not my child' are often proved wrong.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 20, 2019, 10:43:38 AM
What makes you think that remaining in the EU means being part of a "German Superstate"?

In order of the number of EP seats: the UK has the 3rd highest number of EP seats out of the 28 members.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union

Where does this idea of a "German Superstate" come from? The only media in which I've read that notion are far-right outlets...

Maybe not a German Superstate but a Federal State of Europe could well be on the cards IMO.       A European army and European budget have already been put forward

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/881996/European-Union-Juncker-Macron-German-professor-EU-superstate-plans

Also

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10041817/Federal-Europe-will-be-a-reality-in-a-few-years-says-Jose-Manuel-Barroso.html

In fact it was my reading up after the referendum that increased my concerns about Europe.

So Carana not far right outlets - from the EU elite themselves.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 10:52:54 AM
Maybe not a German Superstate but a Federal State of Europe could well be on the cards IMO.       A European army and European budget have already been put forward

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/881996/European-Union-Juncker-Macron-German-professor-EU-superstate-plans

Also

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10041817/Federal-Europe-will-be-a-reality-in-a-few-years-says-Jose-Manuel-Barroso.html

In fact it was my reading up after the referendum that increased my concerns about Europe.

So Carana not far right outlets - from the EU elite themselves.

I agree. There is reason to believe that the UK could end up as just one state in a Federal Europe. That may be acceptable or even attractive to some, but the people of the UK should be fully informed and should consent to it. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 11:50:19 AM
Maybe not a German Superstate but a Federal State of Europe could well be on the cards IMO.       A European army and European budget have already been put forward

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/881996/European-Union-Juncker-Macron-German-professor-EU-superstate-plans

Also

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10041817/Federal-Europe-will-be-a-reality-in-a-few-years-says-Jose-Manuel-Barroso.html

In fact it was my reading up after the referendum that increased my concerns about Europe.

So Carana not far right outlets - from the EU elite themselves.

Interestingly, Churchill advocated a form of Union of European States early back in 1946, so hardly a new idea.

I don't know where the idea of a European army is at. I can't see the point of it, unless it was to counteract Trump's threats to pull out of NATO or otherwise indulge in his usual unpredictable and erratic behaviour.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 20, 2019, 11:54:33 AM
We know that Madeleine was prone to waking.
We know that both parents first thoughts were that she had gone into their bedroom.
We know that Madeleine had run away earlier in the week.
We know that the parents left the door open so she could come and find them if she woke.

Then her mother says no way would she wander off. If there's one thing I know, it's that children constantly surprise their parents. Those who say 'not my child' are often proved wrong.
So is it your opinion that a complete stranger such as MWT would be more of an expert in the behaviour of your own children than you are?  Anyway, you seem to have done another volte-face and appear to be arguing once again that we should defer to the experts, most of whom say that a no deal Brexit will be extremely harmful to the economy and that those who will suffer the most are the poorest and most vulnerable in society. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 12:25:14 PM
Does anyone have the faintest idea what the plans are for the service sector (i.e. 80% of the UK economy)?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 09:06:40 PM
So is it your opinion that a complete stranger such as MWT would be more of an expert in the behaviour of your own children than you are?  Anyway, you seem to have done another volte-face and appear to be arguing once again that we should defer to the experts, most of whom say that a no deal Brexit will be extremely harmful to the economy and that those who will suffer the most are the poorest and most vulnerable in society.

It's very kind of the experts to be concerned about the poor. The cynic in me wonders if they concerned about the economy and are using the poor to strengthen their argument.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 20, 2019, 09:16:57 PM
It's very kind of the experts to be concerned about the poor. The cynic in me wonders if they concerned about the economy and are using the poor to strengthen their argument.
To be concerned about the economy IS to be concerned about the poorest in society, for when the economy tanks it is the poorest who are hit hardest.  Even if the experts couldn’t give a toss about the poor it doesn’t change that fact.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 09:20:14 PM
Does anyone have the faintest idea what the plans are for the service sector (i.e. 80% of the UK economy)?

According to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the vasr majority of services are not traded.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45707110
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 20, 2019, 09:23:40 PM
To be concerned about the economy IS to be concerned about the poorest in society, for when the economy tanks it is the poorest who are hit hardest.  Even if the experts couldn’t give a toss about the poor it doesn’t change that fact.

Many things affect poverty. Austerity policies for exanple, which are based on ideology, not economics.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 20, 2019, 10:00:41 PM
Many things affect poverty. Austerity policies for exanple, which are based on ideology, not economics.
Yes, and?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 10:53:48 PM
According to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the vasr majority of services are not traded.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45707110


I wonder what this means: "Mr Hammond also justified the exclusion of services from Chequers by saying that it would not be a good idea to agree to adopt the EU's rule book in the service sector because "the rule book is evolving in a way that we can't predict and which could be disadvantageous to our businesses"."

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 20, 2019, 11:24:57 PM

I wonder what this means: "Mr Hammond also justified the exclusion of services from Chequers by saying that it would not be a good idea to agree to adopt the EU's rule book in the service sector because "the rule book is evolving in a way that we can't predict and which could be disadvantageous to our businesses"."

Put simply, the French and Germans want to get their hands on our banking, insurance and investment services.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 11:40:14 PM
Put simply, the French and Germans want to get their hands on our banking, insurance and investment services.

What makes you zoom in on the French and Germans? The world is watching this chaos.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 20, 2019, 11:42:20 PM
What makes you zoom in on the French and Germans? The world is watching this chaos.

They want to make Germany the centre of the financial world in Europe instead of London but BREXIT will kill off that particular notion for good.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 20, 2019, 11:49:05 PM
A bit of bed-time reading



Guidance on how to prepare for Brexit if there's no deal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

No, I haven't read it all either. Nor does it seem to be comprehensive.

Who is competent to renegotiate the 759 treaties? And when?

 After Brexit: the UK will need to renegotiate at least 759 treaties
FT research reveals that agreements with 168 countries must be redone just for Britain to stand still

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2019, 12:00:37 AM
A bit of bed-time reading



Guidance on how to prepare for Brexit if there's no deal.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/how-to-prepare-if-the-uk-leaves-the-eu-with-no-deal

No, I haven't read it all either. Nor does it seem to be comprehensive.

Who is competent to renegotiate the 759 treaties? And when?

 After Brexit: the UK will need to renegotiate at least 759 treaties
FT research reveals that agreements with 168 countries must be redone just for Britain to stand still

https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e

It took 45 years to create this mess so it won't all be reversed overnight and that is why Theresa May's deal was a non starter. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 21, 2019, 07:14:04 AM
They want to make Germany the centre of the financial world in Europe instead of London but BREXIT will kill off that particular notion for good.
Can you explain who “they” is, and how they plannrd to achieve this?  Why will BREXIT stop this from happening?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2019, 07:45:37 AM
It took 45 years to create this mess so it won't all be reversed overnight and that is why Theresa May's deal was a non starter.

What "mess" was there before Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2019, 08:16:18 AM
Can you explain who “they” is, and how they plannrd to achieve this?  Why will BREXIT stop this from happening?

I was wondering that as well...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 21, 2019, 10:23:30 AM
Lord Lilley could be seen as an expert on matters both political and economic. In his opinion there's no need to panic about leaving the EU without a deal.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1067595/brexit-news-no-deal-lord-lilley-wto-rules-30-truths-report
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2019, 11:28:57 AM
Lord Lilley could be seen as an expert on matters both political and economic. In his opinion there's no need to panic about leaving the EU without a deal.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1067595/brexit-news-no-deal-lord-lilley-wto-rules-30-truths-report

Of course there is no need to panic, the EU needs the UK more than we need them and history has proven this over the last century. If it wasn't for Britain and its allies the whole of Europe would be one huge Germanic state ruled by Nazis by now reaching from Norway to Turkey to Portugal and most probably half of Africa.  Anyone who cannot see that by now has really buried their head in the sand.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 21, 2019, 11:40:47 AM
Of course there is no need to panic, the EU needs the UK more than we need them and history has proven this over the last century. If it wasn't for Britain and its allies the whole of Europe would be one huge Germanic state ruled by Nazis by now reaching from Norway to Turkey to Portugal and most probably half of Africa.  Anyone who cannot see that by now has really buried their head in the sand.

It does make you wonder if some remainers are following the practice of 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer'.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2019, 02:25:28 PM
Lord Lilley could be seen as an expert on matters both political and economic. In his opinion there's no need to panic about leaving the EU without a deal.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1067595/brexit-news-no-deal-lord-lilley-wto-rules-30-truths-report

Hmm. This is the same Peter Lilley who thinks new negotiations can be settled in 10 minutes?
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/peter-lilley-interview-on-bbc-radio-4-today-programme-1-5786752

Thought so - he's one of the ERG lot
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/20/pms-defeatist-brexit-deal-based-on-lack-of-understanding

A lot of what he claims appears to be just plain wrong.
http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/08/24/demolishing-peter-lilley-s-wto-brexit-nonsense


Don't have time to read all of the article you posted today, but even his first "truth" is bizarre:

"Lord Lilley’s 30 truths on leaving the EU under WTO terms are:

1: It will allow the UK to cash in, not crash out - the UK will not have to pay the £39billion divorce bill."


lol
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 21, 2019, 05:09:25 PM
And nor should we stump up £39 billion for the EU. Better spent on our own people and on repatriating illegal immigrants.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 21, 2019, 05:50:54 PM
Of course there is no need to panic, the EU needs the UK more than we need them and history has proven this over the last century. If it wasn't for Britain and its allies the whole of Europe would be one huge Germanic state ruled by Nazis by now reaching from Norway to Turkey to Portugal and most probably half of Africa.  Anyone who cannot see that by now has really buried their head in the sand.
Jingo!  Jingo-bop!! 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 21, 2019, 05:56:59 PM
If trading under WTO rules is going to be so amazingly marvellous and bring us all untold riches and benefits why are so many MPs against it, from Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn (allegedly) down?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 21, 2019, 06:00:55 PM
What does Peter Lilley suggest we do about this aspect of WTO rules?

“One suggestion has been that the UK scrap all tariffs and regulations for EU imports and continue to accept all products from the EU without checks. But, according to the WTO rules, the UK should extend this approach to products from all other WTO members (it has to treat everyone equally). Is the UK ready to allow all food products, tariff-free and without checks into the UK market? Not only would this be very damaging to UK farmers and the food industry, it would threaten food quality and safety standards”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 21, 2019, 06:17:30 PM
Whatever some think, the latest poll says 'No Deal' is the preferred choice at the moment.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/01/21/12/8792286-6615265-image-a-1_1548074135622.jpg)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 21, 2019, 06:24:31 PM
Whatever some think, the latest poll says 'No Deal' is the preferred choice at the moment.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/01/21/12/8792286-6615265-image-a-1_1548074135622.jpg)
I don’t really think it is, when you add up all the other options which don’t end in no deal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 21, 2019, 07:38:53 PM
Whatever some think, the latest poll says 'No Deal' is the preferred choice at the moment.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/01/21/12/8792286-6615265-image-a-1_1548074135622.jpg)

The best argument against a second referendum is a 5 minute converation with teh average voter
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2019, 10:52:15 PM
And nor should we stump up £39 billion for the EU. Better spent on our own people and on repatriating illegal immigrants.

That money happens to be what is owed for the current budget, projects that the UK has committed to, and MEPs pension funds.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 21, 2019, 10:53:55 PM
I don’t really think it is, when you add up all the other options which don’t end in no deal.

I read that a recent sky (?) poll, it turned out that 26% thought "no deal" meant the status quo, i.e. no Brexit. I haven't seen the results myself yet.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 21, 2019, 11:23:54 PM
I read that a recent sky (?) poll, it turned out that 26% thought "no deal" meant the status quo, i.e. no Brexit. I haven't seen the results myself yet.
now that doesn’t surprise me.  I know it’s politically incorrect to say that a significant percentage of the population is ignorant and/or plain stupid but....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 22, 2019, 07:11:51 AM
I read that a recent sky (?) poll, it turned out that 26% thought "no deal" meant the status quo, i.e. no Brexit. I haven't seen the results myself yet.

Intrigued.  I have never heard of that.  I did look on google and there is a mention to a Sky News twitter poll but the link was removed from the reddit site as "misleading".

If you can find it Carana I would be interested to read it. Thanks
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 08:34:42 AM
Intrigued.  I have never heard of that.  I did look on google and there is a mention to a Sky News twitter poll but the link was removed from the reddit site as "misleading".

If you can find it Carana I would be interested to read it. Thanks

I didn't have time to verify it yesterday. Just had a look, yes, it seems to have been taken down from Reddit as "misleading".

This might be the origin - a Sky Twitter poll, in which case not quite of Gallup reliability.
https://twitter.com/lunaperla/status/1087550822005772288

On the other hand, several people promoting 2nd ref in their towns have said that they hadn't anticipated that numerous people they chatted to thought it meant remain. I'll post any clips if I find them.

I do remember that this issue  came up some time before Xmas, as there were several threads at the time re how important it would be to make the wording crystal clear if ever there was a new one.

I therefor have no idea whether 26% is representative or not, but I wouldn't find it unreasonable that some people who haven't followed the saga would think that: you agree to buy a house, then disccover the foundations are wobbly, so decide to pull out of the deal, i.e. the deal (leaving) doesn't go through,  therefore the prior status quo remains.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 08:44:58 AM
A Labour MP said that some voters (his constituents?) who he'd been in contact with were also under that impression.

https://twitter.com/RhonddaBryant/status/1087282999899635713

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 22, 2019, 09:17:02 AM
Telling the voters that they're too old, too stupid or don't understand is a risky strategy in my opinion. Such people no doubt do exist and some of them voted to leave the EU and some of them voted to remain in it. Inferring that only those who voted to leave fit the description is insulting and untrue.

The electorate includes all kinds of people and every one of them is entitled to vote as they see fit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 09:24:48 AM
What does Peter Lilley suggest we do about this aspect of WTO rules?

“One suggestion has been that the UK scrap all tariffs and regulations for EU imports and continue to accept all products from the EU without checks. But, according to the WTO rules, the UK should extend this approach to products from all other WTO members (it has to treat everyone equally). Is the UK ready to allow all food products, tariff-free and without checks into the UK market? Not only would this be very damaging to UK farmers and the food industry, it would threaten food quality and safety standards”.

An associated question is why he's glossing over what happens to exports. Can't think why...  *%87

In a default WTO no-deal scenario, AFAIK, the UK could decide to unilaterally scrap WTO tariffs on imports, and would have to extend that to all countries (the MFN principle), which is the point being made above, but WTO tariffs would still have to be applied to UK exports, thus making them uncompetitive.

To substantiate that, here's a Select Committe paper from Environment, Food and Rural Affairs: 

Most Favoured Nation Principle

12.The WTO’s 164 country members must observe the “most favoured nation” (MFN) principle: this “non-discrimination principle” means the same tariffs must be applied to all countries. Lower-than-MFN tariffs may only be applied where a free trade agreement (FTA) or customs union (CU) agreement has been concluded with one or more trading partners, or when preferential treatment is given to developing countries.4

13.In this Chapter we examine the impact that tariffs could potentially have on different agri-food sectors.
Tariffs on UK-EU exports under WTO rules

14.Individual tariffs vary between different sectors and products. For non-agricultural goods, the average tariffs are relatively small. However, tariffs on agricultural goods are typically much higher, with the intention of protecting domestic markets.

15.The average EU tariff on dairy products is over 30%, while tariffs could be as high as 87% for frozen beef. Some other examples include a tariff of 46% for cheese or 21% for tomatoes. Some individual products have tariffs over 100%.5

16.Witnesses told us that tariff-free access to the EU was “crucial”.6 Tariffs would have a detrimental impact on those agricultural sectors that were dependent on EU exports for their profitability.

17.We heard particular concerns about the impact of tariffs on the sheep sector. The EU is very important for UK sheep meat exports, with more than 95% of its export volume destined for the EU. The Welsh lamb market is very dependent on the EU market, with 92% of exports (by value) and 85% (by volume) destined for the EU.7

18.Sheep exports, with a tariff of at least 50%, would become uncompetitive on the EU market.8 The Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (AHDB) told us that this would have a “devastating” effect on the sector.9 The Andersons Centre estimated that in Northern Ireland alone, exports to the EU would drop by about 90%.10 It would have serious consequences in Wales, where sheep farming was such a vital part of the Welsh economy, with producer prices estimated to decrease by 30%.11

19.The EU market is also important to the beef market, with more than 90% of UK beef exports shipped to other EU countries in 2015/16.12

20.In addition to their raw value, exports are important in the meat sector in helping to secure value for the whole carcass, finding markets for parts of the animal that are less favourable in the domestic market. In the UK, consumers prefer to eat chicken breast, lamb legs, mince, beef steaks, pork chops. There is little or no domestic market for dark chicken meat, chicken necks, chicken feet, sow meat and pigs trotters, for example.13 Exporting these allow producers to maximise their return.

21.The EU is also a key market for an “export-focused and orientated” dairy market.14 Currently, 15% of current output in the sector is exported, with 85% to 90% going to mainland Europe.15 In Northern Ireland, the situation is exacerbated by the fact that, unlike other regions of the UK, it exports between 70%–85% of its milk product, mostly as milk powders, and does not have a reliance on the liquid milk market.

22.AHDB noted that the introduction of tariffs would prevent most imports of dairy products into the EU.16 Dairy UK stated:

If you take cheese as an example, WTO tariffs on dairy will do what they are designed to do: they will stop trade. The WTO tariff on cheese is of the order of 40% to 50% depending on the cheese variety. We do not make 50% margins in this sector, so the ability to absorb is minimal, if not non-existent.17

23.In the cereals sector, wheat and barley exports would be most affected. Approximately 80% of exports go to EU markets.18 AHDB told us that cereals would find it difficult to compete in the EU market with other third country wheat producers, such as Russia, Ukraine, the US or South America: “They not only have been exporting effectively for a very long time, but they do it in volumes we cannot imagine”.19

24.An exception to the general concern was fruit and vegetables. Exports are minimal, with most trade focused on the domestic market.20

25.George Eustice MP, Minister of State for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Defra, recognised that the lamb industry and cereals industry would be affected by tariffs on exports.21

26.During our evidence session with Rt. Hon. Michael Gove MP, Secretary of State, and the Minister of State for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, we were surprised to hear that Defra had not completed work on sector by sector analysis.22 More surprising was the admission that this work may not be completed before the publication of the Agriculture Bill. Although DexEU had produced Brexit impact assessments and made them available for Members to view, we were not impressed with the depth of analysis in the documents.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmenvfru/348/34805.htm
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 09:36:33 AM
Telling the voters that they're too old, too stupid or don't understand is a risky strategy in my opinion. Such people no doubt do exist and some of them voted to leave the EU and some of them voted to remain in it. Inferring that only those who voted to leave fit the description is insulting and untrue.

The electorate includes all kinds of people and every one of them is entitled to vote as they see fit.

A few in the medical community have voiced the argument of "informed consent".

As a doctor and an MP, I believe we need informed consent from the British public on Brexit – that's why I'm backing a Final Say

If a patient decides, on the advice of their doctor, to undergo an operation but subsequent tests show the patient could avoid surgery, would the surgeon be right to say: ‘Sorry – you’ve agreed to me cutting into your heart and I’m jolly well going to do it’?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-latest-final-say-second-referendum-theresa-may-no-deal-eu-negotiations-a8627621.html

NB: A concern of mine is whether people are now so polarised that cofirmation bias would take over.
I've no idea what the solution to that would be.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 09:56:24 AM
1. Rumour has it everyone wants to start a plant in UK now because the pound is down ergo so will be UK unit labour rates......sweat shops alive and well in a little island off the north Europe coast.
2. Import like we do now.
3.I don't think JCB would see itself as a small company with a turnover of two and a half billion.

Quite what Nissan, Honda, Toyota and VW will make of it all remains to be seen. I suppose VW will stay here making Bentleys and BMW will keep the Mini and Rolls Royce here. ?

I must have missed this from Alice. LOL
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 11:01:29 AM
According to this Sky article, there isn't a majority for a 2nd ref.
https://news.sky.com/story/most-britons-oppose-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-reveals-11613019

But that was on Sunday and doesn't appear to be the Twitter one.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 12:34:28 PM
Of course there is no need to panic, the EU needs the UK more than we need them and history has proven this over the last century. If it wasn't for Britain and its allies the whole of Europe would be one huge Germanic state ruled by Nazis by now reaching from Norway to Turkey to Portugal and most probably half of Africa.  Anyone who cannot see that by now has really buried their head in the sand.

I've really no idea where you get that idea from, Angelo.

A large part of the concept of Europe was precisely to promote peace and prevent another extremist imposing power... and that goes back to Churchill.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 12:40:29 PM
26% appears to be an exaggeration - although it's still not clear where the polls originate nor how representative the results are.


    Only around 4% of people think a no-deal Brexit would involve the UK remaining in the EU, the research finds. Ford and Wager explain:

It is worth starting with what the public very clearly knows to be true. Despite claims to the contary, there is no polling evidence to suggest that any significant section of the population think a no deal Brexit would mean that the UK would remain in the EU. Just 4% think that no deal means a reversion to the status quo ante. Only 8% think that ‘nothing important would really change’ if the UK left the EU without a deal. While leave voters are three times more likely to think this – 12% versus 4% – the idea that no deal would not be an event with consequences, for good or bad, is not widely held.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/jan/22/brexit-latest-news-developments-theresa-may-under-pressure-to-allow-ministers-free-vote-on-amendment-to-block-no-deal-politics-live
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 12:45:54 PM
No time now, but this ccould be an interesting read

 2h ago 10:52
Identification with remain/leave much stronger than identification with a political party, research finds

If you are interested in Brexit, there is a huge amount of quite interesting analysis in the Brexit and Public Opinion 2019 report (pdf) out today from the UK in a Changing Europe project. It contains 22 short essays by academics and other experts.

One, by Geoff Evans and Florian Schaffner, says that whereas in the past people used to identify themselves politically according to the party they supported, now they are far more likely to identify themselves by where they stand on Brexit. Here is an extract.

    The number of both remainers and leavers expressing a Brexit identity grew markedly following the referendum result. After then it has been almost neck-and-neck, with just under 50% identifying with each side but with a slight lead for remain.

    Tellingly, even in mid-2018, two years after the referendum, only just over 6% of people did not identify with either leave or remain.

    Compare this with party attachment. The percentage with no party identity increased from 18% to 21.5% over same period – in part due to the decline of UKIP. Only one in 16 people don’t have a Brexit identity whereas more than one in five have no party identity ...

    The EU referendum seems to have resulted in a classic in-group versus out-group response, especially from remainers. The social and emotional intensity of these Brexit identities – held by almost everybody – is far higher than those for parties. The latter increased a little during the 2017 general election, especially for Labour, but then subsided. A Brexit identity remained prevalent and consequential even two years after the referendum itself. We are a long way removed from the idea that Britain ‘has come together’ to face the challenge of Brexit. Social polarisation is pronounced and shows no sign of diminishing.

This has big consequences for party politics. In a recent speech in Wakefield Jeremy Corbyn argued that “the real divide in our country is not between those who voted to remain in the EU and those who voted to leave” but between the many and the few. He may well be right, but this research suggests that that is not the way people feel at the moment.

From here

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2019/jan/22/brexit-latest-news-developments-theresa-may-under-pressure-to-allow-ministers-free-vote-on-amendment-to-block-no-deal-politics-live

with link to

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Public-Opinion-2019-report.pdf
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 22, 2019, 02:19:27 PM
According to this Sky article, there isn't a majority for a 2nd ref.
https://news.sky.com/story/most-britons-oppose-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-reveals-11613019

But that was on Sunday and doesn't appear to be the Twitter one.

Why would anyone take a second referendum seriously when they couldn't even implement the first one?

Parliament has lost all credibility now in my view and will find it difficult to get it back.  The problem as we all know is that MPs and the electorate are promoting different things. The public voted for Brexit, they didn't vote for a deal nor did they vote for Brexit to be subject to conditions. Many MPs on the other hand are defying their electorate and attempting to thwart Brexit and keep the UK in the EU.

IMO the best and indeed only way forward is to exit the EU by default on the 29th March 2019 and thereafter start the negotiations.  Nothing will change on the ground from that date as a suitable implementation period will exist as it benefits both the UK and the EU to have one.  We could also save the country £39 billion which would be better spent at home rather than propping up some defunct eastern European basketcase.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 04:12:38 PM
Why would anyone take a second referendum seriously when they couldn't even implement the first one?

Parliament has lost all credibility now in my view and will find it difficult to get it back.  The problem as we all know is that MPs and the electorate are promoting different things. The public voted for Brexit, they didn't vote for a deal nor did they vote for Brexit to be subject to conditions. Many MPs on the other hand are defying their electorate and attempting to thwart Brexit and keep the UK in the EU.

IMO the best and indeed only way forward is to exit the EU by default on the 29th March 2019 and thereafter start the negotiations.  Nothing will change on the ground from that date as a suitable implementation period will exist as it benefits both the UK and the EU to have one.  We could also save the country £39 billion which would be better spent at home rather than propping up some defunct eastern European basketcase.

"The public voted for Brexit, they didn't vote for a deal" - seriously?

Are you sure of that amidst all the assurances at the time that life would go on pretty much as before? (CF "easiest deal in history", "over a cup of tea", etc? It hasn't turned out that way, has it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 04:48:56 PM

Brexit backer Dyson moves head office to Singapore

16:43, UK, Tuesday 22 January 2019
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-backer-dyson-moves-head-office-to-singapore-11614700

Who would have thunk that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 05:13:32 PM
Brexit backer Dyson moves head office to Singapore

16:43, UK, Tuesday 22 January 2019
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-backer-dyson-moves-head-office-to-singapore-11614700 (https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-backer-dyson-moves-head-office-to-singapore-11614700)

Who would have thunk that?

Dyson moved his manufacturing base to Malaysia back in the late 1990's before Brexit was even born, and so has nothing to do with it.  Just bought an imported Lightball from there which is brilliantly designed and of excellent quality. One of the main reasons he relocated was the lack of graduate engineers / industrial designers produced by our own educational system - 4% of graduates with engineering-related qualification compared with 40% in Singapore.  So it was only a matter of time before the Dyson headquarters followed suit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 05:30:52 PM
Dyson moved his manufacturing base to Malaysia back in the late 1990's before Brexit was even born, and so has nothing to do with it.  Just bought an imported Lightball from there which is brilliantly designed and of excellent quality. One of the main reasons he relocated was the lack of graduate engineers / industrial designers produced by our own educational system - 4% of graduates with engineering-related qualification compared with 40% in Singapore.  So it was only a matter of time before the Dyson headquarters followed suit.

Is the lack of  UK graduate engineers / industrial designers due to the EU, do  you think? If so, how?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 05:46:42 PM
Is the lack of  UK graduate engineers / industrial designers due to the EU, do  you think? If so, how?
You were suggesting or implying by a cite to a news report that Dyson's HQ move was triggered by Brexit, when quite clearly it has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 06:03:37 PM
No-deal Brexit would mean hard Irish border, EU confirms

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/22/no-deal-brexit-would-mean-hard-irish-border-eu-confirms

Last-minute bluff or a serious potential outcome?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 06:05:11 PM
No matter where the Dyson HQ and manufacturing facilities are located the EU will still buy his cleaning products.  Even the Germans favour them over their own...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/11331231/Germanys-leading-vacuum-brand-is-made-in-the-UK.html (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/11331231/Germanys-leading-vacuum-brand-is-made-in-the-UK.html)

Another reason why Dyson favoured exiting the EU...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/11075490/James-Dyson-suggests-leaving-the-EU-over-vacuum-cleaners.html (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/11075490/James-Dyson-suggests-leaving-the-EU-over-vacuum-cleaners.html)

and others...

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-22/brexit-backer-james-dyson-ditches-britain-for-singapore-with-hq-move/ (https://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-22/brexit-backer-james-dyson-ditches-britain-for-singapore-with-hq-move/)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 22, 2019, 06:11:08 PM
You were suggesting or implying by a cite to a news report that Dyson's HQ move was triggered by Brexit, when quite clearly it has nothing to do with it.
It’s not very patriotic of him, is it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 06:11:44 PM
Dyson moved his manufacturing base to Malaysia back in the late 1990's before Brexit was even born, and so has nothing to do with it.  Just bought an imported Lightball from there which is brilliantly designed and of excellent quality. One of the main reasons he relocated was the lack of graduate engineers / industrial designers produced by our own educational system - 4% of graduates with engineering-related qualification compared with 40% in Singapore.  So it was only a matter of time before the Dyson headquarters followed suit.

I know that most of his manufacturing takes place in Malaysia. He's moving his HQ to Singapore.

What will be left in the UK?

Most of its products are designed in the UK, but manufactured in Asia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46962093

I wonder how UK designing, presumably part of the service sector, will work post-Brexit?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 06:24:26 PM
I know that most of his manufacturing takes place in Malaysia. He's moving his HQ to Singapore.

What will be left in the UK?

Most of its products are designed in the UK, but manufactured in Asia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46962093 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46962093)

I wonder how UK designing, presumably part of the service sector, will work post-Brexit?
It seems he isn't abandoning Britain entirely, intellectually that is...  https://www.dysoncentre.eng.cam.ac.uk/ (https://www.dysoncentre.eng.cam.ac.uk/)

https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/10963085.wiltshire-set-to-be-a-dyson-centre-of-excellence/ (https://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/10963085.wiltshire-set-to-be-a-dyson-centre-of-excellence/)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 06:30:29 PM
It’s not very patriotic of him, is it?
Cheaper manufacturing and transport costs to nearby Asian markets, especially China, are other reasons no doubt.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 22, 2019, 06:34:02 PM
Cheaper manufacturing and transport costs to nearby Asian markets, especially China, are other reasons no doubt.
That doesn’t explain why the Head Office needs to be located there.  Is he moving out there himself, to live?   Where will he be paying his taxes?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 06:36:10 PM
P&O post-Brexit plan to register Channel fleet in Cyprus

The company said the move to re-register the entire English Channel fleet within the EU will lead to fewer inspections and delays.

16:32, UK, Tuesday 22 January 2019


https://news.sky.com/story/po-post-brexit-plan-to-register-channel-fleet-in-cyprus-11614554
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 22, 2019, 06:38:45 PM
Dyson says the move is about “future proofing” his business, what does that mean?  Doesn’t he predict much of a future in his own country?  Shocking timing if you ask me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 22, 2019, 06:54:34 PM
Dyson says the move is about “future proofing” his business, what does that mean?  Doesn’t he predict much of a future in his own country?  Shocking timing if you ask me.

Jacob Rees-Mogg recently set up his second investment fund in Dublin, but insists it has nothing to do with Brexit, although, according to this article:  "The business, which invests millions into emerging and frontier markets, also issued a stark warning over Brexit earlier this year, suggesting there was the likelihood to be “considerable uncertainty” as Britain leaves the bloc."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-scm-ireland-investment-fund-conservative-mp-a8461021.html

And Lord Lawson (a leading Brexiteer whom I'd never heard of) has apparently applied for French residency.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44313941

Hmm.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 22, 2019, 07:01:06 PM
Telling the voters that they're too old, too stupid or don't understand is a risky strategy in my opinion. Such people no doubt do exist and some of them voted to leave the EU and some of them voted to remain in it. Inferring that only those who voted to leave fit the description is insulting and untrue.

The electorate includes all kinds of people and every one of them is entitled to vote as they see fit.

They are entitled to a vote but it was Churchill who said the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter ..
I don't think whetherbwe should stay in Europe should be decided by those who on the whole... Don't have a clue
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on January 22, 2019, 07:22:15 PM
That doesn’t explain why the Head Office needs to be located there.  Is he moving out there himself, to live?   Where will he be paying his taxes?
With such vast wealth he can live anywhere in the world he wishes, jetting frequently between various abodes when required, including Dodington Park, a French chateau vineyard and a Chelsea townhouse.  And now maybe "above the shop" in Singapore. To think that Hoover and Electrolux cocked a snook at his cyclone invention in the early days and now he's having the last laugh.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2889054/Not-bad-fancy-vacuum-cleaner-Inventor-James-Dyson-owns-land-England-Queen.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2889054/Not-bad-fancy-vacuum-cleaner-Inventor-James-Dyson-owns-land-England-Queen.html)

Taxes paid here it's claimed, although the reality might be somewhat different. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 07:29:56 PM
now that doesn’t surprise me.  I know it’s politically incorrect to say that a significant percentage of the population is ignorant and/or plain stupid but....


You could maybe quantify the significant part.  do we know how many are the 100% polled- to get the 25% just a quarter.  where did they come from /back grounds etc-let us think this through.

I told a group of people that 75% of those polled agreed that all  jews  should be dead.. shocked they were...absolutely horrified.

well untill I informed them I polled three people two were nazi fascist and one was jewish... oh how we can make the figures say what we want them to say.. So let us have your actual figures of your assertion that  voters  in your worthless opinion about people you do not know, are ignorant/ stupid?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 07:37:52 PM
P&O post-Brexit plan to register Channel fleet in Cyprus

The company said the move to re-register the entire English Channel fleet within the EU will lead to fewer inspections and delays.

16:32, UK, Tuesday 22 January 2019


https://news.sky.com/story/po-post-brexit-plan-to-register-channel-fleet-in-cyprus-11614554


Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. fewer inspections eh  ok so nothing to hide darlings.

You see, this is the problem when companies run off into the sunset in a huff, others see an opportunity to move in. It really doesn't pay in the long run. 

bye bye over priced 'luxury'
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 07:42:31 PM
Jacob Rees-Mogg recently set up his second investment fund in Dublin, but insists it has nothing to do with Brexit, although, according to this article:  "The business, which invests millions into emerging and frontier markets, also issued a stark warning over Brexit earlier this year, suggesting there was the likelihood to be “considerable uncertainty” as Britain leaves the bloc."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-scm-ireland-investment-fund-conservative-mp-a8461021.html

And Lord Lawson (a leading Brexiteer whom I'd never heard of) has apparently applied for French residency.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44313941

Hmm.

Are  we politially point scoring? well OK lets talk Phony Tony. He  registers his children as Irish citizens just before he declares  WAR on Iraq Slautering tens of thousands and many other peoples  children! Well we can't have his little darlings getting called up now can we?  And what about all the labour,MPs, lords, supporters money the celebrities who back remain where is their money?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 07:56:06 PM
To be concerned about the economy IS to be concerned about the poorest in society, for when the economy tanks it is the poorest who are hit hardest.  Even if the experts couldn’t give a toss about the poor it doesn’t change that fact.


What we need to establish is how do we define 'poor'? The poor need rich people to provide for them do they not?
****************************************************************************************

Re: the claims about what Churchill  wanted. It is the voters who say what they want not the policticians, even though this seems not to be the case in many instances. I do not believe he wanted a unified EU which included Turkey.

The EU is undemocratic and costly- they refused to change -  so we hopped out. I do believe many more will follow.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 22, 2019, 08:02:30 PM

You could maybe quantify the significant part.  do we know how many are the 100% polled- to get the 25% just a quarter.  where did they come from /back grounds etc-let us think this through.

I told a group of people that 75% of those polled agreed that all  jews  should be dead.. shocked they were...absolutely horrified.

well untill I informed them I polled three people two were nazi fascist and one was jewish... oh how we can make the figures say what we want them to say.. So let us have your actual figures of your assertion that  voters  in your worthless opinion about people you do not know, are ignorant/ stupid?
*sigh*.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 22, 2019, 08:05:21 PM

What we need to establish is how do we define 'poor'? The poor need rich people to provide for them do they not?
****************************************************************************************

Re: the claims about what Churchill  wanted. It is the voters who say what they want not the policticians, even though this seems not to be the case in many instances. I do not believe he wanted a unified EU which included Turkey.

The EU is undemocratic and costly- they refused to change -  so we hopped out. I do believe many more will follow.
One thing that Brexit has achieved is to unify Europe - they’ve all seen the absolute turmoil we’ve been through in the last two years and I don’t think any EU country is eager to follow suit in the near future.  IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 08:17:15 PM
One thing that Brexit has achieved is to unify Europe - they’ve all seen the absolute turmoil we’ve been through in the last two years and I don’t think any EU country is eager to follow suit in the near future.  IMO.

I won't hold my breath. Italy and some eastern countries are certainly don't like the way the land lays.

The main issue I have with the EU  and its non democratic mind set is: when the population are being shafted and ignored  they feel undermined, lost, aggireved and this opens the door to fascism.

 How do you think we got  a rise in right wing parties getting a platform. Not beause the new voters love fascists, but it was the only way they could let the  great and good see the mess they created for the rest of us to live in.

We now have 'hate crime'  why do you think we have these laws?  to shut us up and continue with the social engineering? well maybe ., but I think it is more to do with nolt dealing with the issues of injustice with regards to housing and benefits being abused by many thousands of undeserving illegal immigrants(who, when caught- claim asylum)- not genuine asylum seekers or people applying for work permits/residency.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 22, 2019, 08:20:23 PM
They are entitled to a vote but it was Churchill who said the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter ..
I don't think whetherbwe should stay in Europe should be decided by those who on the whole... Don't have a clue

It must be galling to have to rely on the voters to keep you in your job, mustn't it? Politucal power is bestowed or withheld by the electorate, whether politicians like it or not.

I take it you think you're one of those who do have a clue?


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 22, 2019, 08:21:16 PM
I won't hold my breath. Italy and some eastern countries are certainly don't like the way the land lays.

The main issue I have with the EU  and its non democratic mind set is: when the population are being shafted and ignored  they feel undermined, lost, aggireved and this opens the door to fascism.

 How do you think we got  a rise in right wing parties getting a platform. Not beause the new voters love fascists, but it was the only way they could let the  great and good see the mess they created for the rest of us to live in.

We now have 'hate crime'  why do you think we have these laws?  to shut us up and continue with the social engineering? well maybe ., but I think it is more to do with nolt dealing with the issues of injustice with regards to housing and benefits being abused by many thousands of undeserving illegal immigrants(who, when caught- claim asylum)- not genuine asylum seekers or people applying for work permits/residency.
Illegal immigrants by their very definition are not from the EU and therefore nothing to do with our EU membership, nor either is our current benefits system.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 22, 2019, 08:25:04 PM
It must be galling to have to rely on the voters to keep you in your job, mustn't it? Politucal power is bestowed or withheld by the electorate, whether politicians like it or not.

I take it you think you're one of those who do have a clue?

You will be very surprised to hear I dint have enough knowledge to make an informed choice... I probably have more than average... But that isn't enough.. We probably needed some real public debate by experts to educate us ..
It does appear that only poorer countries wish to join..
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 22, 2019, 08:29:14 PM
Illegal immigrants by their very definition are not from the EU and therefore nothing to do with our EU membership, nor either is our current benefits system.

Oh Dear... you really have no clue. or you are pretending not to hear. ok fair enough.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 22, 2019, 08:53:35 PM
Oh Dear... you really have no clue. or you are pretending not to hear. ok fair enough.
Pardon??  How is leaving the EU going to solve the illegal immigrant problem?  How is our current benefits system controlled by thr EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 22, 2019, 10:20:19 PM
You will be very surprised to hear I dint have enough knowledge to make an informed choice... I probably have more than average... But that isn't enough.. We probably needed some real public debate by experts to educate us ..
It does appear that only poorer countries wish to join..

I'm not surprised to hear that you don't have enough knowledge, but I'm surprised to see you admitting it.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 23, 2019, 07:50:32 AM
I'm not surprised to hear that you don't have enough knowledge, but I'm surprised to see you admitting it.  @)(++(*

That's an admission from you that you have misjudged me... It's not the absence of knowledge that's the problem but the presumption of knowledge from people such as you.... I doubt there is anyone on this forum that has the knowledge to make an informed decision

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 07:58:12 AM
With such vast wealth he can live anywhere in the world he wishes, jetting frequently between various abodes when required, including Dodington Park, a French chateau vineyard and a Chelsea townhouse.  And now maybe "above the shop" in Singapore. To think that Hoover and Electrolux cocked a snook at his cyclone invention in the early days and now he's having the last laugh.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2889054/Not-bad-fancy-vacuum-cleaner-Inventor-James-Dyson-owns-land-England-Queen.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2889054/Not-bad-fancy-vacuum-cleaner-Inventor-James-Dyson-owns-land-England-Queen.html)

Taxes paid here it's claimed, although the reality might be somewhat different.
According to today’s Times, the company’s relocation to Singapore will cost the UK £60m in tax receipts. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 08:27:10 AM
As the Daily Mail comments are sometimes used in this forum as a barometer of public opinion, it might be instructive to post the most popular comment under theDyson news which received nearly 5000 green arrows versus a paltry 500 red:

“Dyson that moved manufacturing to Asia , decided that Singapore was the best place to build his cars and now moving his Head Office there as well , another Brexiteer that wants cheap labour without import tariffs on his goods . Brexit was always about the elite and not about the working people of Britain and the sooner people wake up the better for British manufacturing , services and workers” .

I don’t think this news has gone down very well with the GBP. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 08:41:39 AM
Of course there is no need to panic, the EU needs the UK more than we need them and history has proven this over the last century. If it wasn't for Britain and its allies the whole of Europe would be one huge Germanic state ruled by Nazis by now reaching from Norway to Turkey to Portugal and most probably half of Africa.  Anyone who cannot see that by now has really buried their head in the sand.

In which ways does the EU need the UK more than the UK needs the EU, do you think?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 08:59:28 AM
In which ways does the EU need the UK more than the UK needs the EU, do you think?
I’d like to know that too.  27 need 1 more than 1 needs 27 does not somewhow make sense.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 23, 2019, 09:24:33 AM
In which ways does the EU need the UK more than the UK needs the EU, do you think?

I don't think it's that simple... We are net contributers and net importers... Norway, Canada. Switzerland don't need them and to me it seems only poorer countries want to join
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 09:26:33 AM

But what does he know...

“The country’s most senior counterterrorism officer has said that he finds the prospect of Britain leaving the EU without a deal “incredibly concerning”.

Neil Basu warned that a no-deal Brexit would leave the UK and Europe in a “very bad place” if police could not share data and intelligence on suspected criminals and terrorists.”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 10:01:51 AM
That's an admission from you that you have misjudged me... It's not the absence of knowledge that's the problem but the presumption of knowledge from people such as you.... I doubt there is anyone on this forum that has the knowledge to make an informed decision

I haven't misjudged you at all. I don't pretend to know and understand the full facts about this issue either. What I do know about is democracy and 544 of our politicians voted for the Referendum Act in 2015. Only 53 of them voted against it. The only political party which opposed it was the SNP.

Having voted for a referendum I think they should accept the result with good grace. Rejecting the result is undemocratic and hypocritical in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 10:07:54 AM
I haven't misjudged you at all. I don't pretend to know and understand the full facts about this issue either. What I do know about is democracy and 544 of our politicians voted for the Referendum Act in 2015. Only 53 of them voted against it. The only political party which opposed it was the SNP.

Having voted for a referendum I think they should accept the result with good grace. Rejecting the result is undemocratic and hypocritical in my opinion.
Isn't that precisely what Theresa May has been doing for the last two years? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 23, 2019, 10:13:55 AM
I haven't misjudged you at all. I don't pretend to know and understand the full facts about this issue either. What I do know about is democracy and 544 of our politicians voted for the Referendum Act in 2015. Only 53 of them voted against it. The only political party which opposed it was the SNP.

Having voted for a referendum I think they should accept the result with good grace. Rejecting the result is undemocratic and hypocritical in my opinion.

I think they should accept it too... And we should leave... I think the uncertainty is causing more problems than actually  leaving... It seems the border between the divided Ireland is the main problem
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 11:05:54 AM
I think they should accept it too... And we should leave... I think the uncertainty is causing more problems than actually  leaving... It seems the border between the divided Ireland is the main problem

I agree. This in fighting is damaging our democracy, our country's reputation and MP's credibilty.  The lack of a border between Eire and Northern Ireland was confirmed with an international agreenment. If the UK leave the EU they will, in effect, be breaching that legally binding agreement.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 11:13:20 AM
I agree. This in fighting is damaging our democracy, our country's reputation and MP's credibilty.  The lack of a border between Eire and Northern Ireland was confirmed with an international agreenment. If the UK leave the EU they will, in effect, be breaching that legally binding agreement.
Did the Leave Campaign have an answer to this dilemma pre-referendum?  It didn't seem to matter much to anyone then, it seems a bit short-sighted not to have recognised that Brexit would ultimately cause the break up of the union.  Mind you when I have discussed this issue with English Brexiteers, so passionate are they to "take back control" they have admitted they couldn't give a stuff about NI and now think (despite years of being ardent Unionists in the past) that reunification is probably the best solution.  Crazy or what.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 11:54:37 AM
Did the Leave Campaign have an answer to this dilemma pre-referendum?  It didn't seem to matter much to anyone then, it seems a bit short-sighted not to have recognised that Brexit would ultimately cause the break up of the union.  Mind you when I have discussed this issue with English Brexiteers, so passionate are they to "take back control" they have admitted they couldn't give a stuff about NI and now think (despite years of being ardent Unionists in the past) that reunification is probably the best solution.  Crazy or what.

Neither Leavers or Remainers appear to have give any thought to the Irish problem. As many of them were politicians they were clearly incompetent.

I can't comment on what your 'English Brexiteers' are telling you, because it's just hearsay. 

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 12:10:24 PM
Neither Leavers or Remainers appear to have give any thought to the Irish problem. As many of them were politicians they were clearly incompetent.

I can't comment on what your 'English Brexiteers' are telling you, because it's just hearsay.
I don't require you to comment on it, I'm simply telling you the way the discussion went - you of course are perfectly entitled to think I am making it all up, but I'm not.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 12:12:55 PM
Haha!  Yes - this:

Brexit has always had a large dose of phoney populism – it is an elite project for extreme globalisation wrapped up as a popular revolt against globalisation. But it also has an equally large dose of phoney unionism – it is an English national rebellion wrapped in the union flag. Among its many contradictions, perhaps the one in which the gap between rhetoric and reality yawns most widely is this one.

On the one hand, all the evidence is that neither those who voted for Brexit nor those who are seeking to drive it to the hardest possible conclusion give a good goddamn for the union, and in particular for Northern Ireland’s place within it. On the other, they are pretending to be willing to walk away from the Brexit negotiations at any cost if the bloody Irish and the scheming Europeans don’t stop making proposals for dealing with the border question that would – horror of horrors – undermine what Theresa May calls “our precious union”.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/19/brexiters-theresa-may-northern-ireland
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 12:15:33 PM
And from the same article:

when asked whether “the unravelling of the peace process in Northern Ireland” is a “price worth paying” for Brexit that allows them to “take back control”, fully 83% of leave voters and 73% of Conservative voters agree that it is. This is not, surely, mere mindless cruelty – it expresses a deep belief that Northern Ireland is not “us”, that what happens “over there” is not our responsibility.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 01:23:38 PM
2Sony confirmed it is moving its European headquarters from London to Amsterdam.

The chief executive of the luxury carmaker Bentley said the company was stockpiling parts, describing Brexit as a “killer” threatening his firm’s profitability."
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 01:27:53 PM
Haha!  Yes - this:

Brexit has always had a large dose of phoney populism – it is an elite project for extreme globalisation wrapped up as a popular revolt against globalisation. But it also has an equally large dose of phoney unionism – it is an English national rebellion wrapped in the union flag. Among its many contradictions, perhaps the one in which the gap between rhetoric and reality yawns most widely is this one.

On the one hand, all the evidence is that neither those who voted for Brexit nor those who are seeking to drive it to the hardest possible conclusion give a good goddamn for the union, and in particular for Northern Ireland’s place within it. On the other, they are pretending to be willing to walk away from the Brexit negotiations at any cost if the blwonderoody Irish and the scheming Europeans don’t stop making proposals for dealing with the border question that would – horror of horrors – undermine what Theresa May calls “our precious union”.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/19/brexiters-theresa-may-northern-ireland

I wonder what he means by 'globalisation'? Economic, cultural, political or all three? Why would these people want to leave the EU which enables the movement of workers, for example, which is a necessary feature of glovalisation?

Northern Ireland wants to remain in the UK. The UK voted to leave the EU, so Northern Ireland must leave the EU also. Leaving the EU involves creating a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire. Those are the facts.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 01:34:44 PM
“CME Group Inc. will move its foreign-exchange forwards and swaps venue, which has trading volumes of about $15 billion a day, from London to Amsterdam, while Cboe Global Markets Inc. will shift most European equities trading to its market in the Dutch capital after Brexit.”. The latest moves follow CME’s decision last year to move its 200 billion-euro-a-day ($227 billion) short-term financing market to Amsterdam.

Its London business will continue to oversee just 3 billion euros of daily Swiss and U.K. stock trades. Transaction fees that currently generate tax revenue for the U.K. Treasury will in future go to the Dutch authorities.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 01:37:48 PM
I wonder what he means by 'globalisation'? Economic, cultural, political or all three? Why would these people want to leave the EU which enables the movement of workers, for example, which is a necessary feature of glovalisation?

Northern Ireland wants to remain in the UK. The UK voted to leave the EU, so Northern Ireland must leave the EU also. Leaving the EU involves creating a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire. Those are the facts.
You forgot another fact - Northern Ireland voted to remain.  As did Scotland.  Which is the preferred outcome for English Briexiteers - the Union surviving but we stay in Europe, or the union collapsing and England out of Europe?  That could end up being a reality.   The English Brexiteers I have spoken to prefer the latter option, which IMO is insanity. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 01:49:18 PM
I wonder what he means by 'globalisation'? Economic, cultural, political or all three? Why would these people want to leave the EU which enables the movement of workers, for example, which is a necessary feature of glovalisation?

Northern Ireland wants to remain in the UK. The UK voted to leave the EU, so Northern Ireland must leave the EU also. Leaving the EU involves creating a hard border between Northern Ireland and Eire. Those are the facts.
Globalists like Dyson are in the fortunate position to be able to exploit workers abroad and take advantage of tax loopholes and lower rates elsewhere to maximise profits and to forge new markets wherever the fancy takes them - he's all for that type of globalisation.  As Singapore has just signed a free trade agreement with the EU he really has got it made.  Savvy chappy, but he's really pissed off a few people with this announcement.  Not that he will care, unless a threatened boycott of his products takes hold, which is unlikely as people in this country are not very good at putting their money where their mouth is, IMO. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 02:47:46 PM
You forgot another fact - Northern Ireland voted to remain.  As did Scotland.  Which is the preferred outcome for English Briexiteers - the Union surviving but we stay in Europe, or the union collapsing and England out of Europe?  That could end up being a reality.   The English Brexiteers I have spoken to prefer the latter option, which IMO is insanity.

It was a UK vote, not a Northern Irish or Scottish vote, so that's immaterial.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 02:49:29 PM
It was a UK vote, not a Northern Irish or Scottish vote, so that's immaterial.
Try telling that to the Irish or the Scots.   Won't it be hugely ironic if a UK vote for independence results in the destruction of the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 06:27:48 PM
Try telling that to the Irish or the Scots.   Won't it be hugely ironic if a UK vote for independence results in the destruction of the UK.

Perhaps Cornwall will leave the UK if we don't leave the EU, rather than be kept in against it's will. Who knows.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 06:44:39 PM
Perhaps Cornwall will leave the UK if we don't leave the EU, rather than be kept in against it's will. Who knows.
@)(++(*  I really don't think so, unless the Cornish are all stark staring bonkers.  Of course, we could take this to the nth degree and split the country by county into lots of little countries, or even by town.  I mean why should the people of Wakefield be controlled by a bunch of people in Parliament they never voted for and who force them to abide by the same rules and regulations as the people of London?  Independence for Wakefield from the tyranny of the unelected British bureaucrats!!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 06:48:36 PM
Anyway, if Cornwall left the Union then we would at least retain the Union Jack so no biggie.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 23, 2019, 07:26:41 PM
Anyway, if Cornwall left the Union then we would at least retain the Union Jack so no biggie.


Not quite the same.
Cornwall is a region of England.
Scotland is not.

There is a growing awareness here that no matter what the population of this country votes for, their votes are meaningless.
This can only lead to an ever increasing demand for independence.
At the time of the independence vote there were dire warnings that independence would lead to being out of the EU.
I know many who voted no to independence because they were concerned about the effect this would have.
How aggrieved they now are and if given another chance to vote for independence will now vote yes.


 Oops sorry.
This was in reply to GU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 08:11:21 PM

Not quite the same.
Cornwall is a region of England.
Scotland is not.

There is a growing awareness here that no matter what the population of this country votes for, their votes are meaningless.
This can only lead to an ever increasing demand for independence.
At the time of the independence vote there were dire warnings that independence would lead to being out of the EU.
I know many who voted no to independence because they were concerned about the effect this would have.
How aggrieved they now are and if given another chance to vote for independence will now vote yes.


 Oops sorry.
This was in reply to GU.

I can understand that. Many in Scotland must feel aggrieved at having voted 62% (or whatever it was) to stay and being forced to go with the global vote, plus  the fact that ROI might well get a better overall deal. Such a shame, IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 08:17:44 PM
Cornwall is the homeland of the Cornish people and the cultural and ethnic origin of the Cornish diaspora. It retains a distinct cultural identity that reflects its unique history, and is recognised as one of the Celtic nations with a rich cultural heritage.[7] It was formerly a Brythonic kingdom and subsequently a royal duchy. The Cornish nationalist movement contests the present constitutional status of Cornwall and seeks greater autonomy within the United Kingdom in the form of a devolved legislative Cornish Assembly with powers similar to those in Wales and Scotland.[8][9] In 2014, Cornish people were granted minority status under the European Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities,[10] giving them recognition as a distinct ethnic group.[11][12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 08:58:16 PM
@)(++(*  I really don't think so, unless the Cornish are all stark staring bonkers.  Of course, we could take this to the nth degree and split the country by county into lots of little countries, or even by town.  I mean why should the people of Wakefield be controlled by a bunch of people in Parliament they never voted for and who force them to abide by the same rules and regulations as the people of London?  Independence for Wakefield from the tyranny of the unelected British bureaucrats!!!

Precisely. That's how silly it is for people to retreat into their own little corners and argue that 'they didn't vote for it'. That's how elections and referendums work; some get what they want and some don't.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 09:05:11 PM
Michel Barnier says opposing no-deal Brexit will not stop it in March

EU’s chief negotiator warns UK will crash out unless ‘positive majority’ of MPs agree on new vision

Barnier said that extending the two years of the negotiating period beyond 29 March should not be the primary focus for the UK parliament.

“We need decisions more than we need time actually”, he said. “I don’t know whether postponing or extending will be raised but its the head of state and government that will have to answer that question by consensus. Some have said to me that if the question is raised, then why would we do that? What would the purpose be? How long would be required?”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/23/michel-barnier-warns-against-time-limited-irish-backstop
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 09:08:07 PM
Precisely. That's how silly it is for people to retreat into their own little corners and argue that 'they didn't vote for it'. That's how elections and referendums work; some get what they want and some don't.

What I find irritating is that the referendum was advisory. If the government had felt obliged to send a leaflet, they  could have simply said that it was important to have input and it would be given serious consideration, bla, bla. Even better, they should have done their  homework before unleashing this mess.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 09:14:51 PM

Not quite the same.
Cornwall is a region of England.
Scotland is not.

There is a growing awareness here that no matter what the population of this country votes for, their votes are meaningless.
This can only lead to an ever increasing demand for independence.
At the time of the independence vote there were dire warnings that independence would lead to being out of the EU.
I know many who voted no to independence because they were concerned about the effect this would have.
How aggrieved they now are and if given another chance to vote for independence will now vote yes.


 Oops sorry.
This was in reply to GU.

Scotland is part of the UK. They voted in a UK referendum just like everyone else. Those who voted remain lost, just as others all over the UK lost.  Just over one and a half million voters were disappointed, but just over a million voters got the result they voted for. They may have been in the minority in Scotland, but this wasn't a Scottish referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 23, 2019, 09:20:59 PM
Scotland is part of the UK. They voted in a UK referendum just like everyone else. Those who voted remain lost, just as others all over the UK lost.  Just over one and a half million voters were disappointed, but just over a million voters got the result they voted for. They may have been in the minority in Scotland, but this wasn't a Scottish referendum.


And your post defines exactly the reasons why there is a growing desire for independence, especially with the younger generations.
They see the futility of voting when their vote  is pointless.

It may not be in my lifetime but I believe my grandchildren will live in an independent Scotland.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 09:31:04 PM
Precisely. That's how silly it is for people to retreat into their own little corners and argue that 'they didn't vote for it'. That's how elections and referendums work; some get what they want and some don't.
Retreating into their own little corner is precisely what the GBP voted for, just.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 23, 2019, 10:24:37 PM
Scotland is part of the UK. They voted in a UK referendum just like everyone else. Those who voted remain lost, just as others all over the UK lost.  Just over one and a half million voters were disappointed, but just over a million voters got the result they voted for. They may have been in the minority in Scotland, but this wasn't a Scottish referendum.


And your post defines exactly the reasons why there is a growing desire for independence, especially with the younger generations.
They see the futility of voting when their vote  is pointless.

It may not be in my lifetime but I believe my grandchildren will live in an independent Scotland.

Imagine how it feels when you vote for something, win, and then the politicians refuse to accept the result! It's quite normal in a first past the post democracy for people's votes to be pointless. Think about Labour voters in a safe Tory seat and vice versa.

It would be interesting to see how an independant Scotland would get on. Organising it's own affairs might be harder than it thinks. I lived in the Western Isles and their contempt for Westminster was clear but so was their lack of fellow feeling for the Lowlanders. The Gaelic term for the Lowlands is a' Ghalldachd, "the place of the foreigner".
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2019, 10:40:24 PM

Not quite the same.
Cornwall is a region of England.
Scotland is not.

There is a growing awareness here that no matter what the population of this country votes for, their votes are meaningless.
This can only lead to an ever increasing demand for independence.
At the time of the independence vote there were dire warnings that independence would lead to being out of the EU.
I know many who voted no to independence because they were concerned about the effect this would have.
How aggrieved they now are and if given another chance to vote for independence will now vote yes.


 Oops sorry.
This was in reply to GU.

I think we should cut Scotland loose and see how long it takes them to mess up.  When they eventually wake up and realise that they will need a visa to work in England it will be too late. 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2019, 10:42:59 PM
I can understand that. Many in Scotland must feel aggrieved at having voted 62% (or whatever it was) to stay and being forced to go with the global vote, plus  the fact that ROI might well get a better overall deal. Such a shame, IMO.

The Scottish independence referendum and the EU withdrawal vote in Scotland had almost identical results. 1.6 million voted for Independence and 1.6 million voted to stay in the EU. You could say this represents the SNP vote in Scotland.

Since the electorate in Scotland is around 4 million then clearly only 40% of the Scottish electorate voted to stay in the EU, the other 60% either voted leave or couldn't care less anyway.

Nicola Sturgeon does not speak for the majority in Scotland despite holding power at Holyrood.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 23, 2019, 10:48:35 PM
Imagine how it feels for a nation to vote and to know that their vote is pointless.
If every voter in Scotland vote Labour but the voters of England vote Conservative, then we are ruled by a Conservative gornment.
And of course the same would apply if every voter in Scotland voted Conservative but the voters in England voted in Labour.

Can you not appreciate the difference in a nation having to accept that which they did not vote for.
Not quite the same as individual voters in a constituency.

Many Brexiteers have voiced that there will be difficulties in leaving the EU but are willing to accept this in order to leave the EU.
Many here appreciate that there would be difficulties when leaving the the UK union but are willing to accept those to become an independent nation.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 10:55:08 PM
Only 40% of the Scottish electorate voted to stay in the EU, the other 60% either voted leave or couldn't care less to vote anyway.


38% Leave, 62% voted Remain according to the BBC  results. Do you have different info? If so, please cite.
https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2019, 10:57:42 PM

38% Leave, 62% voted Remain according to the BBC  results. Do you have different info? If so, please cite.
https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

See my post above.  Those percentages only reflect actual votes and not the total electorate.  The electorate in Scotland is 4 million. Only 1.6 million voted for Independence and to remain in the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 23, 2019, 11:00:26 PM

38% Leave, 62% voted Remain according to the BBC  results. Do you have different info? If so, please cite.
https://www.bbc.com/news/politics/eu_referendum/results

I don't know the figures but looking at the electorate total and how many actually voted it think Angelo is correct

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Scotland
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 11:02:04 PM



Imagine how it feels for a nation to vote and to know that their vote is pointless.
If every voter in Scotland vote Labour but the voters of England vote Conservative, then we are ruled by a Conservative gornment.
And of course the same would apply if every voter in Scotland voted Conservative but the voters in England voted in Labour.

Can you not appreciate the difference in a nation having to accept that which they did not vote for.
Not quite the same as individual voters in a constituency.

Many Brexiteers have voiced that there will be difficulties in leaving the EU but are willing to accept this in order to leave the EU.
Many here appreciate that there would be difficulties when leaving the the UK union but are willing to accept those to become an independent nation.

The far-right and those pulling the strings may have won, if the long-term game was to break up the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 11:06:17 PM
The Scottish independence referendum and the EU withdrawal vote in Scotland had almost identical results. 1.6 million voted for Independence and 1.6 million voted to stay in the EU. You could say this represents the SNP vote in Scotland.

Since the electorate in Scotland is around 4 million then clearly only 40% of the Scottish electorate voted to stay in the EU, the other 60% either voted leave or couldn't care less anyway.

Nicola Sturgeon does not speak for the majority in Scotland despite holding power at Holyrood.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland
We can all play that game.  Only 38% of the English electorate voted to leave.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 11:06:26 PM
I don't know the figures but looking at the electorate total and how many actually voted it think Angelo is correct

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Scotland

Thanks  for the link, Sunny, but I'm still seeing the same result for Scotland. The only thing is that there was only a 67.25% turnout, which is less than for the UK as a whole.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2019, 11:06:57 PM
If Sturgeon isn't careful she will end up another has-been just like Salmond.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 11:09:17 PM
See my post above.  Those percentages only reflect actual votes and not the total electorate.  The electorate in Scotland is 4 million. Only 1.6 million voted for Independence and to remain in the EU.


Ah.  Ok. If we exclude those who didn't vote, then Stephen was correct: only 37% of the UK electorate voted for Brexit. Plus whattever the percentage may have been of the 1 million + disenfranchised non-UK resident "expats".
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 11:09:25 PM
If Sturgeon isn't careful she will end up another has-been just like Salmond.
That’s how all politicians end up in case you hadn’t noticed.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 23, 2019, 11:10:41 PM
That’s how all politicians end up in case you hadn’t noticed.

They are free to spout nonsense, then disappear when push comes to shove....

Or make noises about  starting a new party with a single purpose... lol
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 23, 2019, 11:11:32 PM
That’s how all politicians end up in case you hadn’t noticed.

 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*  8((()*/

Do you think Teflon Theresa will be the exception?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 23, 2019, 11:46:31 PM
@)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*  8((()*/

Do you think Teflon Theresa will be the exception?
Ermm..she’s already a hasbeen and has been since the last election.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 12:09:50 AM

Government 'should shut down parliament' if MPs delay Brexit, says Jacob Rees-Mogg
The Brexiteer-in-chief calls for the government to take radical action if MPs succeed with plans to take control of Brexit.

By Greg Heffer, political reporter

Wednesday 23 January 2019 16:25, UK


Is it surprisinng if the EU reaction is to wake them up (my interpretation) when the UK has finally made its mind up as to what it actually wants?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 01:33:44 AM
Why would anyone take a second referendum seriously when they couldn't even implement the first one?
[Snip.]

Perhaps because the basis for the first one was unworkable?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 24, 2019, 06:26:56 AM
Perhaps because the basis for the first one was unworkable?

We cannot know that. Looking back I blame Theresa May who was a remainer for taking personal control of any negociations.  Had there been someone who believed in Brexit in charge we could well have agreed a better deal with the EU IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 24, 2019, 07:16:17 AM
We cannot know that. Looking back I blame Theresa May who was a remainer for taking personal control of any negociations.  Had there been someone who believed in Brexit in charge we could well have agreed a better deal with the EU IMO.
There were a succession of Brexit ministers who were all Leavers, did any of them come up with anything resembling a better deal?  What IS a better deal?  One in which the EU agrees to everything we want?  Well that’s not going to happen, and never was.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 24, 2019, 07:22:49 AM
This morning the chief executive of Airbus said the company would be forced to make “potentially very harmful decisions for the UK” in the event of a no deal Brexit. In a video statement Tom Enders said: “Please don’t listen to the Brexiteers’ madness which asserts that, because we have huge plants here, we will not move and we will always be here. They are wrong.”

In June Airbus said that it could leave Britain altogether if the country left the EU’s single market and customs union without a transition deal. The aerospace firm employs 14,000 people at 25 sites in Britain.

from today’s Times.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 08:03:09 AM
Government 'should shut down parliament' if MPs delay Brexit, says Jacob Rees-Mogg
The Brexiteer-in-chief calls for the government to take radical action if MPs succeed with plans to take control of Brexit.

By Greg Heffer, political reporter

Wednesday 23 January 2019 16:25, UK


Is it surprisinng if the EU reaction is to wake them up (my interpretation) when the UK has finally made its mind up as to what it actually wants?

The UK has voted for what it wants and it voted to leave the EU. It's the politicians who seem unable or unwilling to accept that fact.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 24, 2019, 08:21:47 AM
The UK has voted for what it wants and it voted to leave the EU. It's the politicians who seem unable or unwilling to accept that fact.
Did the UK vote for a hard brexit or a soft brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 24, 2019, 08:26:16 AM
I have to say that now I have got over the shock and horror of what British MPs have descended into, it is much more fun watching it all from this side of The Channel.

I really wanted Brexit for the sake of Britain, no matter how it might affect me.  I have lived with a weak Pound for more than ten years now, and the effect it has had on my British State Pension, which hasn't been funny.  But a persistently weak Pound tells me what the rest of the World thinks of Britain.  And now the politicians are proving it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 10:35:04 AM
We cannot know that. Looking back I blame Theresa May who was a remainer for taking personal control of any negociations.  Had there been someone who believed in Brexit in charge we could well have agreed a better deal with the EU IMO.

The problem for me is that so far none of the Brexiteer politicians seem to have a clue what they're talking about, despite their sweeping statements made with an authoritative voice.

There are former WTO negotiators who've taken to Twitter who're banging their heads at some of the things the politicians come out with.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 11:20:11 AM
Did the UK vote for a hard brexit or a soft brexit?

If by hard Bresit you mrean leaving the EU then that's what they voted for.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 24, 2019, 11:27:11 AM
If by hard Bresit you mrean leaving the EU then that's what they voted for.
Have you started posting on a phone...as your typos are getting almost as bad as mine.....i don't have a problem with them but it seems some on here do
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 24, 2019, 11:27:22 AM
Government 'should shut down parliament' if MPs delay Brexit, says Jacob Rees-Mogg
The Brexiteer-in-chief calls for the government to take radical action if MPs succeed with plans to take control of Brexit.

By Greg Heffer, political reporter

Wednesday 23 January 2019 16:25, UK


Is it surprisinng if the EU reaction is to wake them up (my interpretation) when the UK has finally made its mind up as to what it actually wants?

The people of the UK decided what they wanted in 2016, it is the MPs who are messing it up in order to suit their own agendas.

Feeding out of the self-interest trough. LABOUR shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer has pocketed £125,000 from one of the law firms that derailed Brexit – including £25,000 since he became MP.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2125612/labour-shadow-brexit-secretary-keir-starmer-pockets-125000-from-law-firm-derailing-britains-eu-exit/amp/#click=https://t.co/YKxayb6fZz
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 11:28:20 AM
I have to say that now I have got over the shock and horror of what British MPs have descended into, it is much more fun watching it all from this side of The Channel.

I really wanted Brexit for the sake of Britain, no matter how it might affect me.  I have lived with a weak Pound for more than ten years now, and the effect it has had on my British State Pension, which hasn't been funny.  But a persistently weak Pound tells me what the rest of the World thinks of Britain.  And now the politicians are proving it.

It's quite fun waching it from here too. The more they try to convince people that they know what they're doing the more obvious it becomes that they don't.  They are damaging themselves, our country, and our political system more and more every day. I wouldn't actually blame Theresa May if she closed Parliament and taught them all a lesson.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 24, 2019, 11:28:39 AM
I think its significant taht Dyson is building his new car in malaysia....if the EU is so good why isnt he building it there
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 24, 2019, 11:29:49 AM
It's quite fun waching it from here too. The more they try to convince people that they know what they're doing the more obvious it becomes that they don't.  They are damaging themselves, our country, and our political system more and more every day. I wouldn't actually blame Theresa May if she closed Parliament and taught them all a lesson.

The worrying thing is ...are those running teh EU....and controlling our future....any better....I dont think they are
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 11:32:45 AM
Have you started poting on a phone...as your typos are getting almost as bad as mine.....i dont have a problem with them but it seems some on here do

I'm waiting for an operation on a cateract, plus I'm getting lazy and not reading my posts before posting them.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 24, 2019, 11:33:26 AM
This morning the chief executive of Airbus said the company would be forced to make “potentially very harmful decisions for the UK” in the event of a no deal Brexit. In a video statement Tom Enders said: “Please don’t listen to the Brexiteers’ madness which asserts that, because we have huge plants here, we will not move and we will always be here. They are wrong.”

In June Airbus said that it could leave Britain altogether if the country left the EU’s single market and customs union without a transition deal. The aerospace firm employs 14,000 people at 25 sites in Britain.

from today’s Times.

Boeing will just fill the vacuum.  The UK will no longer succumb to French threats.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 24, 2019, 11:38:07 AM
I think its significant taht Dyson is building his new car in malaysia....if the EU is so good why isnt he building it there

Why on earth would he as he intends to sell most of them to China?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 11:38:47 AM
The people of the UK decided what they wanted in 2016, it is the MPs who are messing it up in order to suit their own agendas.

Feeding out of the self-interest trough. LABOUR shadow Brexit secretary Keir Starmer has pocketed £125,000 from one of the law firms that derailed Brexit – including £25,000 since he became MP.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2125612/labour-shadow-brexit-secretary-keir-starmer-pockets-125000-from-law-firm-derailing-britains-eu-exit/amp/#click=https://t.co/YKxayb6fZz

That's the problem. When an MP says 'for the good of the country' it may be that they beleive it or it may be that they're protecting the interests of their sponsors.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 24, 2019, 11:41:22 AM
I'm waiting for an operation on a cateract, plus I'm getting lazy and not reading my posts before posting them.

best wishes  for your operation...im probably lazy in that respect too
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 24, 2019, 11:41:51 AM
That's the problem. When an MP says 'for the good of the country' it may be that they beleive it or it may be that they're protecting the interests of their sponsors.

Take Yvette Cooper for example, she is leading attempts to destroy BREXIT despite 70% of her constituents voting leave. How on earth can she justify such a position?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 11:48:48 AM
The worrying thing is ...are those running teh EU....and controlling our future....any better....I dont think they are

Politics is a dirty game. We don't have much control over our own politicians and we have less over the EU ones. For that reason alone it behoves us to be wary of giving them power over us. In my opinion the smaller and more local the better from a democratic point of view.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 24, 2019, 12:02:05 PM
I'm waiting for an operation on a cateract, plus I'm getting lazy and not reading my posts before posting them.

I hope that goes well for you G.

I think its significant taht Dyson is building his new car in malaysia....if the EU is so good why isnt he building it there


That is because his biggest market is in Asia. China in particular.  They have already set aside parts of regions to test  driverless cars.

https://www.2025ad.com/latest/china-driverless-cars-report/

It takes  a long time to get a drivers licience in China. I get terrified beyond control when I go there... Especially  in the outer parts. No pedestrian crossings- you walk normal and the cars drive around you!!!!!  I advise wearing thick pants!

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 12:04:46 PM
Take Yvette Cooper for example, she is leading attempts to destroy BREXIT despite 70% of her constituents voting leave. How on earth can she justify such a position?

She can't. But she's no fan of democracy anyway; that was clear when Corbyn was elected Labour Leader.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 24, 2019, 02:13:47 PM
Please note that the posts relating to Scottish history, nationhood and independence have their own thread.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 24, 2019, 02:25:35 PM
She can't. But she's no fan of democracy anyway; that was clear when Corbyn was elected Labour Leader.

None of the Westminster politicians seem to inspire confidence in their capabilities.
Rather worrying at this time of huge decisions.
I wish you well in your forthcoming cataract removal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 24, 2019, 04:02:12 PM
It's quite possible that many of the MPs voting on this very important issue have little real knowledge of the pros and cons of leaving the EU
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 04:18:01 PM
It's quite possible that many of the MPs voting on this very important issue have little real knowledge of the [ censored word ] and cons of leaving the EU

Which issue are you referring to, Davel?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 04:27:07 PM

BBC considers setting up EU base in Belgium after Brexit

Move needed for licences to continue broadcasting across member states

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/24/bbc-international-hq-belgium-brexit-netherlands-ireland-eu
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 24, 2019, 04:37:35 PM
There were a succession of Brexit ministers who were all Leavers, did any of them come up with anything resembling a better deal?  What IS a better deal?  One in which the EU agrees to everything we want?  Well that’s not going to happen, and never was.

One of the brexit ministers (can't remember his name) said as he resigned that he had not had any input in the decision making nor discussions whilst in post.   David Davis also said he hadn't even seen the Checkers proposal until it was unveiled and that was why he resigned.

That makes it a mockery to employ Brexit believing ministers in that post if they are not allowed to be part of the discussions. 

All IMO

Don't you wonder why there have been so many ministers resign? I don't.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 05:05:07 PM
None of the Westminster politicians seem to inspire confidence in their capabilities.
Rather worrying at this time of huge decisions.
I wish you well in your forthcoming cataract removal.

I have never had confidence in their capabilities, so no surprises there.

Thank you for the gopd wishes. It's a farly simple procedure done in the day clinic so it should be fine.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 05:49:16 PM
One of the brexit ministers (can't remember his name) said as he resigned that he had not had any input in the decision making nor discussions whilst in post.   David Davis also said he hadn't even seen the Checkers proposal until it was unveiled and that was why he resigned.

That makes it a mockery to employ Brexit believing ministers in that post if they are not allowed to be part of the discussions. 

All IMO

Don't you wonder why there have been so many ministers resign? I don't.

Hmm. How could he not have seen the Chequers plan if he was in charge of UK negotiations?

IMO, they all had different ideas of what Brexit meant, didn't have a clue how complex it was going to be, and believe(d) that the UK was going to be able to dictate all the terms.

It took ages for it to even sink in that the divorce agreement and trade deals were different phases...

A bit like Flat-Earthers going on a world conference cruise and never stopping to wonder how ships actually navigate.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 24, 2019, 06:12:53 PM
If by hard Bresit you mrean leaving the EU then that's what they voted for.
Er, not that’s not what I mean.  Brexit means leaving the EU, now did they vote for a hard one or a soft one?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 06:34:12 PM
I have never had confidence in their capabilities, so no surprises there.

Thank you for the gopd wishes. It's a farly simple procedure done in the day clinic so it should be fine.

Wishing you the best for your op as well, G-Unit. I'll have to have the same done at some point, as most of us will.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 08:39:40 PM
Er, not that’s not what I mean.  Brexit means leaving the EU, now did they vote for a hard one or a soft one?

As I understand it a soft Brexit involves keeping one or two feet inside the EU. That's not what I see as leaving.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 08:45:11 PM
As I understand it a soft Brexit involves keeping one or two feet inside the EU. That's not what I see as leaving.

That may not be your view, but what about those who may have believed that everything would have carried on much  as before, minus a few tweaks?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 24, 2019, 08:52:05 PM
I liked this comment on question time.. Angela Merkel needs to sell 850,000 cars to this country... There are 2 million German jobs at stake... After no deal that phone is going to be ringing pretty quickly
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 09:05:40 PM
That may not be your view, but what about those who may have believed that everything would have carried on much  as before, minus a few tweaks?

What about them? If they don't understand the word 'leave' they could be beyond help imo. I include some politicians in that too.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 24, 2019, 09:48:11 PM
As I understand it a soft Brexit involves keeping one or two feet inside the EU. That's not what I see as leaving.
Did you understand that by leaving there would be no free trade deal with the EU?  Is that what you voted for?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 24, 2019, 10:00:04 PM
Did you understand that by leaving there would be no free trade deal with the EU?  Is that what you voted for?

I didn't vote for anything, but I understood what leave meant. Terminate, withdraw, depart.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 24, 2019, 10:03:49 PM
I didn't vote for anything, but I understood what leave meant. Terminate, withdraw, depart.
You didn’t vote at all??   And yet you seem so sure of what you think is right. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 24, 2019, 11:01:39 PM
If a small majority of people had agreed to drink Kool-Aid with the promise of sunlight uplands on Planet Zeta, then discovered that maybe Planet Zeta was unlikely to offer what they had been told, does everyone still have to drink it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2019, 06:04:01 AM
You didn’t vote at all??   And yet you seem so sure of what you think is right.

I know what leave means and I know what the result of the referendum vote was; it's not rocket science. I also understand what democracy is, which a lot of people appear to be struggling wth.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 25, 2019, 07:13:41 AM
I know what leave means and I know what the result of the referendum vote was; it's not rocket science. I also understand what democracy is, which a lot of people appear to be struggling wth.
A process which you declined to take part in, I find that odd considering your strong views on the matter.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2019, 09:23:00 AM
A process which you declined to take part in, I find that odd considering your strong views on the matter.

I have strong views on democracy, but not on Brexit as such. I didn't actually care whether the UK remained in the EU or not. If the vote had been a victory for remain and politicians had tried to circumvent that result I would have been just as scathing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 25, 2019, 09:32:48 AM

From what I have gathered Britain handed over all of its Right to The EU, and now The EU is refusing to give some of them back.

But I no longer care of what they do.  France has been very good to me.  So I won't be going anywhere any time soon.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 11:53:06 AM
Britain's national security will be severely weakened if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and it could take "years and years" to rebuild.

The blunt warning comes from three men who have served at the very top of the British defence and security establishment: Sir John Sawers, the former head of MI6, Lord David Richards, the former Chief of the Defence Staff, and Lord Peter Ricketts, the former National Security Adviser.
https://news.sky.com/story/national-security-will-be-severely-weakened-in-no-deal-brexit-former-security-chiefs-11616825
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 25, 2019, 11:57:49 AM
Britain's national security will be severely weakened if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and it could take "years and years" to rebuild.

The blunt warning comes from three men who have served at the very top of the British defence and security establishment: Sir John Sawers, the former head of MI6, Lord David Richards, the former Chief of the Defence Staff, and Lord Peter Ricketts, the former National Security Adviser.
https://news.sky.com/story/national-security-will-be-severely-weakened-in-no-deal-brexit-former-security-chiefs-11616825

So Britain no longer controls its own security.  What a disgraceful admission.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 12:39:08 PM
So Britain no longer controls its own security.  What a disgraceful admission.

A fear of "illegal immigrants", appears to have been a major "selling point" for Brexit, on the back of the refugee crisis and that they would have freedom of movement.

That doesn't seem totally accurate. If they get official travel documents, they generally don't need visas to visit other countries within the Schengen area.

This is from Latvia's official information about refugee travel documents:

"According to the Council Regulation (EC) No. 1932/2006 exemption from the visa requirement to enter another Member State of the EU, except for the United Kingdom and Ireland, but including Norway and Iceland, applies to the refugees who reside permanently in another Member State and who are holders of a travel document issued by that Member State."

https://www.pmlp.gov.lv/en/home/services/passports/refugee%E2%80%99s-travel-document.html

Checking what that regulation says:

"COUNCIL REGULATION (EC) No 1932/2006
of 21 December 2006
amending Regulation (EC) No 539/2001
listing the third countries whose na
tionals must be in possession
of visas when crossing the external borders
and those whose nationals are ex
empt from that requirement

... The United Kingdom and Ireland are not
 bound by Regulation (EC) No 539/2001. They
are therefore not taking part in the adopti
on of this Regulation and are not bound by or
subject to the application thereof. "

http://www.europeanmigrationlaw.eu/documents/EML_DIRECTIVE_CELEX-32006R1932_EN.pdf (p. 5)

And trying to verify if it meant what I thought it did:

"Refugees need to apply for a standard travel visa from their host country if they're not sponsored."
 (I selected refugee, wanting to visit UK as a "tourist".)
https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa

Other possibilities:

"Family reunion visas for refugees

If you were separated from your partner or child when you were forced to leave your country, you can apply for them to join you in the UK.

To apply you must have been given asylum or 5 years’ humanitarian protection, and not have British citizenship."

https://www.gov.uk/apply-to-come-to-the-uk

So... the idea that millions of refugees hosted by other countries could suddenly leg it to the UK without trace doesn't appear to be totally accurate.

Based on that, I'm bewildered as to how no longer being in Europol, nor having access to the Schengen Information System (SIS2), (there was a time-limited partial access in the event of a deal, which presumably falls apart in a no-deal), and no longer being part of the Galileo project is meant to meant to improve security.

How is UK-French police cooperation supposed to continue in Calais?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 12:46:34 PM
On the idea of the UK unilaterally cancelling tariffs on imports.

https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1088696249652572160

Oh dear.

I'd never heard of Delingpole... Seems he's the executive editor of Breitbart, London.

If even Andrew Neill pulls him apart... lol

An additional point not made clear in this short clip isn't just that the UK would have to apply zero tariffs to the rest of the world, it encourages dumping, thus making life even more complicated for UK-based businesses who wouldn't be able to compete even on their home turf. How is that going to Make the UK Great Again?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 02:23:16 PM
I think its significant taht Dyson is building his new car in malaysia....if the EU is so good why isnt he building it there

Apparently, his car will be manufactured in Singapore - which is where he's seemingly shifting his HQ to.

Singapore and the EU signed a trade agreement in October 2018.

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1926


Early Feb 2017, he opened a big R & D centre there.

Dyson, which currently employs 1,100 people in Singapore, said it plans to grow its Singapore-based engineering team by 50 per cent. It is seeking talent across a broad range of engineering disciplines, including connectivity, motors, sensors, robotics and software. The new centre will create an additional 190 jobs over the next five years.
Read more at https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/dyson-opens-s-587m-r-amp-d-centre-at-singapore-science-park-7592436

Maybe UK engineers could get jobs over there?

If, indeed, his biggest market is Asia, it makes sense for the company to move closer. So far, so good.

But why did he jump on the Brexit bandwagon?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 25, 2019, 03:20:39 PM
I liked this comment on question time.. Angela Merkel needs to sell 850,000 cars to this country... There are 2 million German jobs at stake... After no deal that phone is going to be ringing pretty quickly

The Germans sell by far the most cars to the UK, about €23 billions worth in 2017.  It's very much in their interest to keep us sweet. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 03:37:09 PM
The Germans sell by far the most cars to the UK, about €23 billions worth in 2017.  It's very much in their interest to keep us sweet.

The UK and Germany can't do their own separate little deal, though.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 04:23:03 PM
Some Leavers think no-deal is the only version that is "true" to Brexit.
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1088807915933388800

Yet arch-Brexiteer Farage himself kept going on about a "Norway deal".
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1088818772486602752
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 25, 2019, 07:24:15 PM
The Germans sell by far the most cars to the UK, about €23 billions worth in 2017.  It's very much in their interest to keep us sweet.
If the GBP want German cars they will still be able to buy German cars, they will just cost more than pre-Brexit. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 07:48:02 PM

French firms with UK ties told to look for alternatives as Brexit looms

French minister launches booklet that warns companies should seek other options in case of no-deal Brexit


French businesses working with British contractors or suppliers should now be actively seeking out alternatives, the French government has said, as it further ramped up preparations for a no-deal Brexit that it sees as increasingly likely.

“Let’s not panic, but let’s prepare for different scenarios,” the Europe minister, Nathalie Loiseau, said on Friday as she unveiled a 28-page booklet for companies with British ties, which advises them to adopt the UK’s wartime motto and “keep calm and carry on”.

Companies reliant on UK business partners should explore other options outside Britain, while those with UK-based operations in specific EU-regulated sectors such as pharmaceuticals should think about moving them to the continent, the guidance says
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/france-advises-firms-with-uk-ties-to-prepare-for-no-deal-brexit
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 25, 2019, 08:15:28 PM
A no deal Brexit may actually turn out to have some advantages for Europe, if the exodus of big businesses from the UK means they end up relocating to European cities instead.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on January 25, 2019, 09:34:24 PM
Britain's national security will be severely weakened if the UK leaves the EU without a deal and it could take "years and years" to rebuild.

The blunt warning comes from three men who have served at the very top of the British defence and security establishment: Sir John Sawers, the former head of MI6, Lord David Richards, the former Chief of the Defence Staff, and Lord Peter Ricketts, the former National Security Adviser.
https://news.sky.com/story/national-security-will-be-severely-weakened-in-no-deal-brexit-former-security-chiefs-11616825

Other ex-MI6/defence staff have said that there are threats to UK security buried within Theresa May's (failed) EU Brexit deal. They advocate an exit based on WTO rules with UK retaining full sovereignty, which is presumably what comes into play under a no-deal Brexit. Who to believe......?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/exhead-of-mi6-urges-tory-chairs-not-to-back-mays-deal-as-it-threatens-national-security-a4035601.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 10:32:59 PM
Other ex-MI6/defence staff have said that there are threats to UK security buried within Theresa May's (failed) EU Brexit deal. They advocate an exit based on WTO rules with UK retaining full sovereignty, which is presumably what comes into play under a no-deal Brexit. Who to believe......?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/exhead-of-mi6-urges-tory-chairs-not-to-back-mays-deal-as-it-threatens-national-security-a4035601.html

I don't see what WTO has got to do with security. May's deal or no-deal, the UK will still be out of Europol, SIS2, Galileo...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 25, 2019, 11:00:48 PM

Cabinet Office compares no-deal Brexit to Iceland ash cloud chaos

Eyjafjallajökull seen as nearest recent example of what civil service could have to cope with

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/25/cabinet-office-compares-no-deal-brexit-to-iceland-ash-cloud-chaos


"The government has a running list of “reasonable worst-case scenarios”, which is constantly being amended and updated. Earlier this month it included a gamut of serious concerns.

(...)

Another scenario is that the UK and EU will not have secured a data protection agreement before Brexit, which could prevent police from having instant access to information held by European forces on EU citizens arrested in the UK."

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 25, 2019, 11:23:09 PM
Cabinet Office compares no-deal Brexit to Iceland ash cloud chaos

Eyjafjallajökull seen as nearest recent example of what civil service could have to cope with

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/25/cabinet-office-compares-no-deal-brexit-to-iceland-ash-cloud-chaos


"The government has a running list of “reasonable worst-case scenarios”, which is constantly being amended and updated. Earlier this month it included a gamut of serious concerns.

(...)

Another scenario is that the UK and EU will not have secured a data protection agreement before Brexit, which could prevent police from having instant access to information held by European forces on EU citizens arrested in the UK."

Am I right that you voted remain Carana? 

Seriously though, everyone I have spoken to who voted for Brexit won't change their mind regardless of the scare stories in the media.   

in fact it is this project fear that made me think about changing my mind after the vote had happened.

Looking back I remember everyone being brought forward to keep us in the EU, even Barrack Obama.  Scare stories about the pound crashing, inflation etc all was supposed to happen after a Brexit leave win. None of which happened.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 25, 2019, 11:32:49 PM
Am I right that you voted remain Carana? 

Seriously though, everyone I have spoken to who voted for Brexit won't change their mind regardless of the scare stories in the media.   

in fact it is this project fear that made me think about changing my mind after the vote had happened.

Looking back I remember everyone being brought forward to keep us in the EU, even Barrack Obama.  Scare stories about the pound crashing, inflation etc all was supposed to happen after a Brexit leave win. None of which happened.
are you quite confident that in the event of a no deal Brexit there will only be positives and no negatives for the country in the first few years following?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on January 26, 2019, 12:09:27 AM
I don't see what WTO has got to do with security. May's deal or no-deal, the UK will still be out of Europol, SIS2, Galileo...

I assume it's something to do with the WTO rules which state that a signatory should have secure borders. If some of our national security is abrogated to the EU under the deal, how would that work in ensuring non-discriminatory import checks & financial issues?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 12:22:04 AM
I assume it's something to do with the WTO rules which state that a signatory should have secure borders. If some of our national security is abrogated to the EU under the deal, how would that work in ensuring non-discriminatory import checks & financial issues?

In what way would UK security be abrogated to the EU under May's deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 12:55:44 AM
An interesting talk by Sir Ivan Rogers, who seems scathing of both sides.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/sites/european-institute/files/sir_ivan_rogers_lecture_ucl_22012019.pdf
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on January 26, 2019, 12:58:38 AM
In what way would UK security be abrogated to the EU under May's deal?

I don't know as  haven't seen the full wording of the agreement reached with the EU re. security. Can you point me in the right direction, please, as the ex-officers must know something which has not been widely discussed
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 02:59:30 AM
I don't know as  haven't seen the full wording of the agreement reached with the EU re. security. Can you point me in the right direction, please, as the ex-officers must know something which has not been widely discussed

Security starts on p. 104 re the transition period.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/759019/25_November_Agreement_on_the_withdrawal_of_the_United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland_from_the_European_Union_and_the_European_Atomic_Energy_Community.pdf

And the (non-binding) outline of the future relationship is in the other document, p. 15+.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 04:17:21 AM
Here is the Twitter thread in that article. https://twitter.com/hthjones/status/1083369564711342080?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-42772810951273023920.ampproject.net%2F1901081935550%2Fframe.html

Guthrie, Palantir... Hmm.

Then, there's this "article" in Briefings-for-Brexit, which reads like a hard Brexit blog. https://briefingsforbrexit.com/prime-minister-misleading-country-on-security/

His arguments are certainly not how I read pp 17 et seq of the political agreement. I can't see any abrogation of sovereignty anywhere in it.

My impression is that they just that they wanted to vote down May's deal. The sceptic in me makes me wonder if there are US interests in the background. 


From the last section of the Wiki page on Dearlove,


"On 8 June 2017, Dearlove intervened on the day of the 2017 UK general election in The Daily Telegraph saying "how profoundly dangerous it would be for the nation if Jeremy Corbyn becomes Prime Minister."[24]

On 29 November 2018 Dearlove co-signed an open letter, published in a British national newspaper, condemning Prime Minister Theresa May's negotiated Withdrawal Agreement for the United Kingdom from the European Union after the 2016 Referendum on the issue, as the matter was passing through the House of Commons to be voted upon. In its text he stated that the Withdrawal Agreement as negotiated undermined MI6's nationally independent global intelligence power.[25]
In a published response, dated the same day, the Prime Minister's Office issued a public "rebuttal" to the letter's content, singling out Dearlove personally from the named list of several signatories to the open letter, stating the Withdrawal Agreement "absolutely does not" compromise the national independence of the United Kingdom's Secret Intelligence Service's capacity.[26]
In early December 2018 Dearlove, in a jointly authored text with Major-General Julian Thompson, published on the website 'Briefings for Brexit' an extensive reply to the Prime Minister's Office's statement entitled 'The Prime Minister is misleading the country on defence and security', citing a 'worryingly poor understanding of the issues' by the Prime Minister's office.[27]

On 8 January 2019, in an extraordinary intervention in the political sphere by figures from the S.I.S. and the military quarter, Dearlove sent a letter, co-signed by Field Marshal Lord Guthrie, to all Chairs of Conservative Party Parliamentary Constituency Associations with sitting Members of Parliament stating that the passage through the House of Commons of Prime Minister Theresa May's European Union Withdrawal Agreement contained decisions which fundamentally undermined the integrity of the Defence of the Realm, and requested that they take measures to discourage their parliamentary representatives from voting for it imminently in the Commons. The letter as an alternative advocated the case upon national security grounds that the United Kingdom should fully withdraw from the European Union without an Intergovernmental relationship between the two persisting after the process.[28][29]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dearlove

Hmmmm.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 05:15:21 AM
Something seems odd to me about that letter, and the rebuttals he apparently co-signed.

He seems quite measured and diplomatic in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrCRkyl7CZg
IMO, the style / language of the written pieces doesn't read like the same person. 



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2019, 07:07:15 AM
are you quite confident that in the event of a no deal Brexit there will only be positives and no negatives for the country in the first few years following?

There are negatives with remaining in the EU too.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 07:14:58 AM
There are negatives with remaining in the EU too.
Maybe so but that wasn’t the question asked.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 08:15:46 AM
The original Sky articls of the Dearlove / Guthrie letter includes more reactions from Parliament, so possibly more complete.
https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-mays-brexit-deal-threatens-national-security-ex-mi6-chief-sir-richard-dearlove-warns-11603738

Also worth reading Sir Ivan Rogers' analysis (posted above) of the behind the scenes positions of the various factions. Quite an eye-opener in some respects, IMO.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 10:10:44 AM
Am I right that you voted remain Carana? 

Seriously though, everyone I have spoken to who voted for Brexit won't change their mind regardless of the scare stories in the media.   

in fact it is this project fear that made me think about changing my mind after the vote had happened.

Looking back I remember everyone being brought forward to keep us in the EU, even Barrack Obama.  Scare stories about the pound crashing, inflation etc all was supposed to happen after a Brexit leave win. None of which happened.


Project Fear was largely what the Leave campaign was based on, IMO, although it's often used to describe the Remain one.

Depending on the source, eg tabloids, the Remain camp may well have exaggerated on some points, although I can't recall any offhand, except that worst-case scenario re rampant inflation didn't occur. But the £ certainly crashed. http://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates.php?A=1&C1=GBP&C2=EUR&YA=1&DD1=26&MM1=01&YYYY1=2014&B=1&P=&I=1&DD2=26&MM2=01&YYYY2=2019&btnOK=Go%21

If the Leave campaign's repeated assertions about Turkey about to be welcomed as a member and therefore 70m Turks were going to suddenly descend on the UK wasn't intended to stoke up fear, I'm not sure how else to describe it. It wasn't the only outright lie, either.

The problem with much of what I do recall reading from the Remain campaign, knicknamed Project Fear, is that much of it is Project No-Deal Fact.

Have a read of Sir Ivan Rogers talk (link further up). He's just as scathing about both sides. lol
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 26, 2019, 10:30:53 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUbL1PB4BU&feature=share
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2019, 10:54:37 AM
Maybe so but that wasn’t the question asked.

No it wasn't, but it's worth remembering that neither option is guaranteed to be easy. The voters have tried being in the EU and disliked it enough to vote to leave. It might be the best thing the UK ever did, it might be a disaster.

What seems clear to me is that those predicting disaster often have a vested interest in remaining in the EU. What might suit them or their business interests may not suit the rest of the population. What they think is best for the country may only be best for them. I don't know the answers and I don't know which commentators are truly putting the UK and it's people before their own interests. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 11:15:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLUbL1PB4BU&feature=share

Clever and amusing, but they're still going on about £350m a week, which was debunked years ago.

As it happens, though, Deborah Meaden is no fan of Brexit by any stretch of the imagination.
https://twitter.com/DeborahMeaden
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 26, 2019, 11:17:10 AM
Clever and amusing, but they're still going on about £350m a week, which was debunked years ago.

As it happens, though, Deborah Meaden is no fan of Brexit by any stretch of the imagination.
https://twitter.com/DeborahMeaden

Just been listening to Douglas Rees, Mogg and according to him we were offered a Canada style deal last year
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 11:31:37 AM
Just been listening to Douglas Rees, Mogg and according to him we were offered a Canada style deal last year

Hmmm. From what I've read recently, it wasn't the UK that was offered such a deal, but GB.

I changed the last bit, it wasn't that they'd forgotten Ireland, but the ++ bit wasn't acceptable.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 01:29:21 PM
Sad to see the European Medicines Agency taking down the 28 flags...

https://twitter.com/EMA_News/status/1088844259934064640

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 26, 2019, 02:06:39 PM
are you quite confident that in the event of a no deal Brexit there will only be positives and no negatives for the country in the first few years following?

Of course not but I am not confident that in the event that we remain there will only be positives and no negatives.

I see more and more European integration intended regardless of the wishes of the individuals living in Europe.  A European Army, European bank setting countries budgets...where will this stop?   IMO it will stop when we have one massive unweildy Federation of Europe which will be ruled by one group of unelected people. There will be no need for Westminster, Holyrood etc as they will merely be provincial district capitals within this large group.  Something like the Soviet Union was and just as unnacountable.

I have heard on the news several times in the last few days ministers from other European countries say there will be no negociation on the backstop because Michel Barnier won't negociate. This was from people who wanted to give a little more so a deal would be achieved.

Anyone know if Michel Barnier was elected by anyone?  He wasn't..... yet he is making decisions about our future.


This is why I decided I don't like the Europe we have and am seriously concerned about the Europe we appear to be getting.

Incidentally I would ask if we have any Scottish people here who voted for independence whether they also voted to Remain.  Carana doesn't appear to want to reply to me but I would appreciate her input as I find her posts very interesting and well thought out.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 03:21:27 PM
Of course not but I am not confident that in the event that we remain there will only be positives and no negatives.

I see more and more European integration intended regardless of the wishes of the individuals living in Europe.  A European Army, European bank setting countries budgets...where will this stop?   IMO it will stop when we have one massive unweildy Federation of Europe which will be ruled by one group of unelected people. There will be no need for Westminster, Holyrood etc as they will merely be provincial district capitals within this large group.  Something like the Soviet Union was and just as unnacountable.

I have heard on the news several times in the last few days ministers from other European countries say there will be no negociation on the backstop because Michel Barnier won't negociate. This was from people who wanted to give a little more so a deal would be achieved.

Anyone know if Michel Barnier was elected by anyone?  He wasn't..... yet he is making decisions about our future.


This is why I decided I don't like the Europe we have and am seriously concerned about the Europe we appear to be getting.

Incidentally I would ask if we have any Scottish people here who voted for independence whether they also voted to Remain.  Carana doesn't appear to want to reply to me but I would appreciate her input as I find her posts very interesting and well thought out.

Thanks for you compliment, ;) but I did reply to you just further up or on the previous page.

As I suggested in that, try reading Ivan Rogers speech, for what it's worth. He touches on your concern about a federalist Europe.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 03:38:24 PM
I used to have diagrams of the various main bodies of the EU, what they do, who is elected versus appointed, or nominated then elected, and the different types of voting systems, which I can't find for the moment.

This brochure is quite helpful, I find.
https://publications.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/9a6a89dc-4ed7-4bb9-a9f7-53d7f1fb1dae
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 05:58:41 PM
No it wasn't, but it's worth remembering that neither option is guaranteed to be easy. The voters have tried being in the EU and disliked it enough to vote to leave. It might be the best thing the UK ever did, it might be a disaster.

What seems clear to me is that those predicting disaster often have a vested interest in remaining in the EU. What might suit them or their business interests may not suit the rest of the population. What they think is best for the country may only be best for them. I don't know the answers and I don't know which commentators are truly putting the UK and it's people before their own interests.
And vice versa.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 05:59:59 PM
Sad to see the European Medicines Agency taking down the 28 flags...

https://twitter.com/EMA_News/status/1088844259934064640
900 jobs lost in the UK as the move to the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 06:01:44 PM
Of course not but I am not confident that in the event that we remain there will only be positives and no negatives.

I see more and more European integration intended regardless of the wishes of the individuals living in Europe.  A European Army, European bank setting countries budgets...where will this stop?   IMO it will stop when we have one massive unweildy Federation of Europe which will be ruled by one group of unelected people. There will be no need for Westminster, Holyrood etc as they will merely be provincial district capitals within this large group.  Something like the Soviet Union was and just as unnacountable.

I have heard on the news several times in the last few days ministers from other European countries say there will be no negociation on the backstop because Michel Barnier won't negociate. This was from people who wanted to give a little more so a deal would be achieved.

Anyone know if Michel Barnier was elected by anyone?  He wasn't..... yet he is making decisions about our future.


This is why I decided I don't like the Europe we have and am seriously concerned about the Europe we appear to be getting.

Incidentally I would ask if we have any Scottish people here who voted for independence whether they also voted to Remain.  Carana doesn't appear to want to reply to me but I would appreciate her input as I find her posts very interesting and well thought out.
Project Fear, leaver style.  Michel Barnier didn’t decide we should leave the EU so what do you mean exactly?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 06:55:06 PM
This from Janice Turner in today’s Times sums up my position exactly (apart from I’m not a Labour member):

“I find, for the first time in my life, that I can’t convey what I want politically, only what I don’t want. Not a second referendum (less than a landslide and it won’t end the matter); not a Jeremy Corbyn government (though I’m a Labour member still); not a May government (but her likely Tory successors are worse). Not the Norway option (really, what is the point?). Neither a no-deal exit nor a nine-month delay, dragging this horror show into summer. I’m not thrilled about leaving but I don’t believe we can stay. I envy the inflexible zealots on both sides: at least they have goals. I want, what? To turn back time?”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 26, 2019, 07:13:39 PM
Project Fear, leaver style.  Michel Barnier didn’t decide we should leave the EU so what do you mean exactly?

It is quite simple VS. The UK population using a democratic referendum decided to leave the EU,  Michel Barnier has had no democratic election putting him in charge of making decisions that will affect millions of EU and UK citizens and yet he is in charge.

Where is the democracy in that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 07:18:52 PM
It is quite simple VS. The UK population using a democratic referendum decided to leave the EU,  Michel Barnier has had no democratic election putting him in charge of making decisions that will affect millions of EU and UK citizens and yet he is in charge.

Where is the democracy in that?
Michel Barnier is in charge of Brexit negotiations a position which he wouldn’t be in if we hadn’t decided to leave the EU.  If we really were controlled by unelected EU bureacrats presumably we wouldn’t be in the situation we currently find ourselves in.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 07:20:55 PM
It is quite simple VS. The UK population using a democratic referendum decided to leave the EU,  Michel Barnier has had no democratic election putting him in charge of making decisions that will affect millions of EU and UK citizens and yet he is in charge.

Where is the democracy in that?
Perhaps you might like to read this, or perhaps you prefer to keep on spouting that old hackneyed phrase without thought.
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 07:23:51 PM
And then there’s this
https://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/european-laws-are-made-by-unelected-bureaucrats/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 26, 2019, 07:29:04 PM
Michel Barnier is in charge of Brexit negotiations a position which he wouldn’t be in if we hadn’t decided to leave the EU.  If we really were controlled by unelected EU bureacrats presumably we wouldn’t be in the situation we currently find ourselves in.

It has taken over 40 years to have an EU referendum in the UK, all the while the EU has changed from that which existed at the time of the previous one.  David Cameron regrets making a referendum an election pledge.   He wanted to stay in Europe and maintain the status quo.  The people did not. It is not the fault of leave voters that Theresa May (a remainer) made such a hash of negociations, nor that there is an unelected individual in charge on the EU side.

I gather you also voted remain VS as I did.  I have regretted my choice, perhaps one day you will too.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 08:39:56 PM
It has taken over 40 years to have an EU referendum in the UK, all the while the EU has changed from that which existed at the time of the previous one.  David Cameron regrets making a referendum an election pledge.   He wanted to stay in Europe and maintain the status quo.  The people did not. It is not the fault of leave voters that Theresa May (a remainer) made such a hash of negociations, nor that there is an unelected individual in charge on the EU side.

I gather you also voted remain VS as I did.  I have regretted my choice, perhaps one day you will too.
Negotiations.  Why do you keep spelling this word wrong when you must have read it a thousand times this year already, if you read the daily press? 
How could I ever regret voting to remain when we are leaving the EU?  My vote counted for nothing.
Incidentally who voted for the numerous Brexit negotiators on our side?  Did you?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 26, 2019, 09:03:16 PM
Negotiations.  Why do you keep spelling this word wrong when you must have read it a thousand times this year already, if you read the daily press? 
How could I ever regret voting to remain when we are leaving the EU?  My vote counted for nothing.
Incidentally who voted for the numerous Brexit negotiators on our side?  Did you?

None of them were my MP so no I didn't but someone voted for them.  Apart from Olly Robbins I suppose.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 09:17:38 PM
This from Janice Turner in today’s Times sums up my position exactly (apart from I’m not a Labour member):

“I find, for the first time in my life, that I can’t convey what I want politically, only what I don’t want. Not a second referendum (less than a landslide and it won’t end the matter); not a Jeremy Corbyn government (though I’m a Labour member still); not a May government (but her likely Tory successors are worse). Not the Norway option (really, what is the point?). Neither a no-deal exit nor a nine-month delay, dragging this horror show into summer. I’m not thrilled about leaving but I don’t believe we can stay. I envy the inflexible zealots on both sides: at least they have goals. I want, what? To turn back time?”

This whole nightmare seems to be about what people don't want, not what they do.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 09:22:12 PM
It is quite simple VS. The UK population using a democratic referendum decided to leave the EU,  Michel Barnier has had no democratic election putting him in charge of making decisions that will affect millions of EU and UK citizens and yet he is in charge.

Where is the democracy in that?

He's in charge of negotiating on behalf of everyone. The moderator. It's the 27 + 1 who decide.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 26, 2019, 09:28:24 PM
He's in charge of negotiating on behalf of everyone. The moderator. It's the 27 + 1 who decide.

He appears to be making the decisions on behalf of the EU rather than simply  following their wishes.   This is the impression I have gained from EU politicians comments recently.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 09:32:43 PM
It is quite simple VS. The UK population using a democratic referendum decided to leave the EU,  Michel Barnier has had no democratic election putting him in charge of making decisions that will affect millions of EU and UK citizens and yet he is in charge.

Where is the democracy in that?


Sunny, he's in charge of the preparation and the process - he's not a one-man show. He has to listen to everyone and get them all to agree on how to move forward.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 26, 2019, 09:37:23 PM
This whole nightmare seems to be about what people don't want, not what they do.

Weaknesses have now been found in our Parliamentary system which is allowing a handful of upstarts with their own agenda to disrupt things.  Theresa May needs to take a very firm stand here imo otherwise there is potential for civil disobedience like what is happening in France right now.

The country has made a decision albeit on a slim majority, it is now for the government to deliver that decision regardless.  These idiots calling for a people's vote or a second referendum have no interest in our country imo and are merely attempting to destroy BREXIT at any cost.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 09:45:04 PM
He appears to be making the decisions on behalf of the EU rather than simply  following their wishes.   This is the impression I have gained from EU politicians comments recently.

A member leaving is unprecedented territory. IMO, it's one thing to have a legal script to follow, that had never been tested, and another to get it to work in practice, with 28 governmennts to deal with. I don't envy his job. I don't envy May's one, either, whatever my view on the whole mess.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 26, 2019, 10:00:21 PM
Weaknesses have now been found in our Parliamentary system which is allowing a handful of upstarts with their own agenda to disrupt things.  Theresa May needs to take a very firm stand here imo otherwise there is potential for civil disobedience like what is happening in France right now.

The country has made a decision albeit on a slim majority, it is now for the government to deliver that decision regardless.  These idiots calling for a people's vote or a second referendum have no interest in our country imo and are merely attempting to destroy BREXIT at any cost.

What IS Brexit? The government can't even agree.

A slim majority of those who voted (excluding those who didn't bother or couldn't) chose to leave the EU, amidst apparently dodgy psyops campaign tactics.

That was 2.5 years ago.

Now, with just 10 weeks to go, still nothing - the why, when, what and how -  is clear.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 11:05:55 PM
None of them were my MP so no I didn't but someone voted for them.  Apart from Olly Robbins I suppose.
No one voted for any of them to become the chief Brexit negotiator for the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 11:15:48 PM
Weaknesses have now been found in our Parliamentary system which is allowing a handful of upstarts with their own agenda to disrupt things.  Theresa May needs to take a very firm stand here imo otherwise there is potential for civil disobedience like what is happening in France right now.

The country has made a decision albeit on a slim majority, it is now for the government to deliver that decision regardless.  These idiots calling for a people's vote or a second referendum have no interest in our country imo and are merely attempting to destroy BREXIT at any cost.
Project Fear.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2019, 11:22:52 PM
Hopefully an article we can all enjoy:

Stock up now on loo rolls, dog food, diaries and Grayling gaffes
Matt ChorleyJanuary 26 2019, 12:01am,

Britain is not good in a crisis. This is a country that loses its mind when it can’t buy KFC chicken, or when all it can get is a vegan sausage roll. Our second-busiest airport was brought to a standstill by a drone which might not have existed. We had a national nervous breakdown at the idea of changing the name of salad cream, rescuing some penguins and turning off Big Ben’s bongs.

So how are we supposed to cope if we leave the EU without a deal? A nation deprived of its Spanish little gem lettuce is certain to revolt.

Luckily, we are getting prepared. A survey of Mumsnet users revealed that more than half are stocking up on pasta, lentils and baked beans. In entirely unrelated news 56 per cent have also bought more loo roll.

A guide circulating among Facebook groups for “Brexit Preppers” offers advice on what to do if things go really bad: “You can line your toilet with plastic bags in the event of water being switched off and dispose of the contents away from your house.” Close to Boris Johnson’s house, presumably.

Pets at Home, every parent’s favourite free day out (“Look at the fish! Look at the guinea pigs! Look at the worming tablets!”) announced it was stockpiling dog food. I’m sure we will get used to the taste. Or we could just cut out the middleman and eat the dog. (I was going to say cat, but I know from previous experience with my feline-loving readers that cat people are like EU-beret wearing Remoaners without the sense of humour.)

The makers of Bisto are buying extra ingredients, which is taking stockpiling a bit literally. Iceland supermarkets, though, are not bothering. Which is bad news if you were planning to celebrate Easter with a prawn ring and a Viennetta, just like Jesus would have wanted.

WH Smith, however, announced that it was stockpiling diaries, which by definition have a limited shelf life. They are their own sell-by date. It turns out these dingy, chaotic stores are just preparing for a stationery apocalypse. Never mind Brexit; can anyone explain how WH Smith is surviving the high street bloodbath with a business model based on autobiographies by 23-year-olds, cut-price chocolate oranges and selling newspapers cheaper if you take a two-gallon bottle of water off their hands as well?

Even newspapers are stocking up on supplies of paper and ink for no deal. As anyone who has bought a printer cartridge will know, ink is one of the most mind-bogglingly expensive commodities on earth, up there between diamonds and saffron.

The government is taking no chances, and has been building up supplies of life’s essentials: medicines, fuel, iPhone chargers. There is a massive collection of Chris Grayling gaffes in a warehouse in Milton Keynes ready to be rolled out after March 29 to reassure the public that normal life is continuing. They include the reintroduction of highwaymen with muskets, filling potholes with corned beef and the revelation that HS2 actually stands for “HopScotch” not “High Speed”, meaning commuters travelling to Birmingham will have to throw a small stone and only jump on the odd numbers. And Theresa May will still be in charge, proving that whatever the ingredients, she can make a meal of anything.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2019, 12:32:14 AM
Project Fear.

One should never underestimate the power of the public if their hand is forced. Why do you think the army has been mobilised?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2019, 07:27:33 AM
As far as I can see Parliament has two choices. Accept May's deal or don't accept it. If they don't accept it the UK will leave the EU with no deal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 27, 2019, 08:07:58 AM
No one voted for any of them to become the chief Brexit negotiator for the UK.

Very true but if you read their comments they believe they were peripheral to the negotiations anyway.   David Davis believed he was largely ignored IMO.

The person running them was Theresa May with the advice of Olly Robbins. Theresa May was elected by her constituents to parliament then elected by other MPs to be PM.  Whether she was a good choice as PM or to carry out negotiations remains to be seen. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2019, 09:05:30 AM
One should never underestimate the power of the public if their hand is forced. Why do you think the army has been mobilised?
Project Fear.  Are you saying leaving the EU without a deal will lead to rioting on the streets, because that is why the army has been mobilized, you do realise?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 10:09:34 AM
Very true but if you read their comments they believe they were peripheral to the negotiations anyway.   David Davis believed he was largely ignored IMO.

The person running them was Theresa May with the advice of Olly Robbins. Theresa May was elected by her constituents to parliament then elected by other MPs to be PM.  Whether she was a good choice as PM or to carry out negotiations remains to be seen.

That may be true, Sunny, or partially so.

On the other hand, when one of them says that it was going to be the "easiest deal in history", "over a cup of tea", or shared on TV the significance of the Dover-Calais route for shipping goods as if it were a little-known fact, saying they were sidelined sounds a bit like Larry the Cat ate their homework. LOL

Or perhaps it is true but May became so exasperated that she ended up giving them some crayons and paper and asking them to sit nicely in a corner...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 10:20:10 AM
I'd forgotten that the UK is now on Brexit Secretary No. 3 - in the form of Stephen Barclay.

According to the BBC, [Barclay] voted Leave at the 2016 Brexit referendum, tweeting in February 2016 that David Cameron's attempt to renegotiate the UK's membership "did not deliver the game changer we need to protect against further EU integration"
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46241720

So hardly a remainer, either.

Jim Crace's - admittedly tongue-in-cheek description of No 3 - doesn't inspire much confidence, either:


Looking for Brexit answers? Don't ask the Brexit secretary
John Crace
 Thu 24 Jan 2019 15.47 GMT
Last modified on Thu 24 Jan 2019 20.30 GMT



Stephen Barclay’s intensive training in knowing nothing pays dividends in the Commons


Third time lucky. The first two iterations of Brexit secretary hadn’t gone well. David Davis had been too lazy and too dim to do anything very much, while Dominic Raab had been under the impression that he was in control of the process and de facto prime minister. In Stephen Barclay, Theresa May had finally found a square peg for a square hole. A man with the perfect CV. One that was almost entirely blank.

Barclay is no fool. Far from it. It takes a man of above average intelligence to recognise that his primary role is to understand as little as possible about Brexit. A job he performs with the utmost diligence by going to extraordinary lengths to remain uninformed. His ignorance is a conscious act. Every day is a battle to ward off civil servants tempting him with briefing notes, and to make sure he knows a little less than he did before. Give him time and he’ll barely be able to remember he’s a government minister. Much like everyone else.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/24/looking-for-brexit-answers-dont-ask-the-brexit-secretary

I'd find it screamingly funny if the situation weren't so serious...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 10:29:08 AM
And I don't know who Corbyn would have appointed if he'd won a new general election.

Diane Abbot?

The mind boggles...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2019, 10:54:09 AM
Project Fear.  Are you saying leaving the EU without a deal will lead to rioting on the streets, because that is why the army has been mobilized, you do realise?

No but failure to leave the EU will invoke civil disturbance.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2019, 10:58:13 AM
And I don't know who Corbyn would have appointed if he'd won a new general election.

Diane Abbot?

The mind boggles...

The difficulties with BREXIT are all false flags imo created by the Corbyn mob in an attempt to grab power.  So far it has failed but at what price to the rest of us.  God help us if that Marxist idiot ever became the leader of our country.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 27, 2019, 11:06:39 AM
That may be true, Sunny, or partially so.

On the other hand, when one of them says that it was going to be the "easiest deal in history", "over a cup of tea", or shared on TV the significance of the Dover-Calais route for shipping goods as if it were a little-known fact, saying they were sidelined sounds a bit like Larry the Cat ate their homework. LOL

Or perhaps it is true but May became so exasperated that she ended up giving them some crayons and paper and asking them to sit nicely in a corner...

Or perhaps she never utilised them properly in the first place and relied on Olly Robbins' advice. That is the impression that David Davis gave from very early on.

Who's to say that with a competent negotiator we couldn't have achieved a deal relatively easily. Theresa May wanted to stay very close to the EU and tied her own hands behind her back.

She has totally reneged on her Lancaster speech IMO
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
No but failure to leave the EU will invoke civil disturbance.

I presume that this is simply your assumption, or do you have inside knowledge?

There may well be, as often happens if basic neccessities are all but unobtainable.

And there may well be agit-prop hooligans joining in if they have nothing else on their calendar in April, as is also often the case.

I wouldn't be surprised if EDL-type groups aren't fine-tuning a plan of action in anticipation.

An interesting excerpt from the Wiki page on Tommy Robinson, who just happened to pop into my head.


UKIP affiliation

In September 2018, Robinson expressed a desire to join the UK Independence Party (UKIP). On 23 November 2018, UKIP leader Gerard Batten appointed Robinson as his own adviser.[136] In response, the former UKIP leader Nigel Farage described Robinson as a "thug" and said he was heartbroken with the direction UKIP was going.[137] Farage and Brown called for Batten to be removed as leader.[136] At a UKIP meeting on 30 November, Robinson sat beside Daniel Thomas, a convicted kidnapper.[138]

Many prominent UKIP members resigned from the party in response to Robinson's appointment, including two former party leaders[139], six of the party's thirteen MEPs[140] and the party leader in Scotland.[141]

UKIP's rules prohibit membership to those who have been part of extreme right wing groups in the past, which preclude Robinson from joining as he founded the English Defence League (EDL), had been a member of the British National Party, and had ties for a while with the British Freedom Party.

UKIP's National Executive Committee intends to consider waiving that clause for Robinson as a special case. If approved, his possible membership would be put to a vote at the party's conference.[142] The committee's decision was deferred until after 29 March 2019.[143] Batten supports Robinson joining the party, while UKIP Welsh Assembly members Michelle Brown and David Rowlands said they oppose it.[144]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Robinson_(activist)


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 27, 2019, 11:24:52 AM
I doubt anyone on this forum is in favour of civil unrest Carana however who knows what others may do.

I also do not think anyone here would support anyone who colludes with Tommy Robinson and his ilk.

There is however a groundswell of opinion in the UK that parliament is now not working for us but only themselves. They also appear to be trying to change the law so the government of the day cannot govern without parliaments say so.

All very worrying for now and also the future regardless of the outcome of Brexit IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 11:42:06 AM
The difficulties with BREXIT are all false flags imo created by the Corbyn mob in an attempt to grab power.  So far it has failed but at what price to the rest of us.  God help us if that Marxist idiot ever became the leader of our country.

As someone who can only cope with a small, temporary, Bollinger bandwith either side of the midpoint, you may be heartened to learn that I can't cope with Corbyn any more than Farage.

However, I haven't seen much evidence of the far-left attempting to influence people's perceptions of the potential, and now likely, consequences of Brexit.

The basic consequences of a no-deal situation, that were poo-pooed as Project Fear by the Right over two years ago, are largely correct, IMO.

It's not far-left propaganda to state that, in theory, planes will no longer have air clearance or certification, pilots won't have EU licenses to fly them, UK citizens won't have access to e-passport controls (although that appears to have been temporarily waived) or that bums have to get into gear to work out how to deal with the dozens of thousands of lorries that deliver vital supplies every day.

I expect that even in the event of a worst-case scenario, the EU will temporarily waive some rules on humanitarian grounds, but I wouldn't expect that to last too long.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 11:56:11 AM
I doubt anyone on this forum is in favour of civil unrest Carana however who knows what others may do.

I also do not think anyone here would support anyone who colludes with Tommy Robinson and his ilk.

There is however a groundswell of opinion in the UK that parliament is now not working for us but only themselves. They also appear to be trying to change the law so the government of the day cannot govern without parliaments say so.

All very worrying for now and also the future regardless of the outcome of Brexit IMO.

I certainly agree that the situation is worrying.

I really don't know how far May has been trying to save her party or to genuinely attemèpt to steer her view of the best way forward between the icebergs. However much my personal view is that there was a different way forward, I don't envy her job.

And, IMO, Corbyn appears to float on some Marxist cloud, way above the chimney tops. Although there are moderates (IMO) in the Labour party, he would still call the shots... and I find that the prospect would have been equally concerning.

Both main parties are split. Instead of the usual left-right, horizontal plane, the  UK now has a matrix of Left-Right, on the horizontal plan PLUS Remain to Leave on the vertical one.

If certain, possibly foreign, parties have played a geo-strategic game to create chaos, affecting more countries than just the UK, then they appear to be winning at the moment.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 12:09:58 PM
Or perhaps she never utilised them properly in the first place and relied on Olly Robbins' advice. That is the impression that David Davis gave from very early on.

Who's to say that with a competent negotiator we couldn't have achieved a deal relatively easily. Theresa May wanted to stay very close to the EU and tied her own hands behind her back.

She has totally reneged on her Lancaster speech IMO

It might be worth digging out the Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister series again, methinks. I have the box-set, but my DVD player has packed up, sadly. :(
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2019, 12:21:26 PM
No but failure to leave the EU will invoke civil disturbance.
Right so it’s Project Fear if the army is being mobilised in the event of no deal, but not Project Fear if the army is being mobilised in the event of no Brexit.  Right you are then...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 27, 2019, 12:21:55 PM
It might be worth digging out the Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister series again, methinks. I have the box-set, but my DVD player has packed up, sadly. :(

I love those. Watch them on youtube from time to time.   It also looks like the writer was correct when he showed the huge influence on the largely remain (according to David Davis) civil service
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2019, 12:23:29 PM
What brilliant deal did David Davis have in mind that nasty ol’ Theresa wouldn’t let him negotiate?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 12:32:10 PM
What brilliant deal did David Davis have in mind that nasty ol’ Theresa wouldn’t let him negotiate?

Are you sitting down?

David Davis on Post-Brexit Global Trade (February 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V4dbzVRoq4
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 12:43:48 PM
I love those. Watch them on youtube from time to time.   It also looks like the writer was correct when he showed the huge influence on the largely remain (according to David Davis) civil service

We retain different things. LOLL

Mine is that politician peacocks come and go, often without a clue about their portfolio, but seasoned civil servants have the "been there, tried that" experience to know what is workable or not.

Over time, governments of various flavours turn up. The role of civil servantts is to keep the cogs in motion.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Jean-Pierre on January 27, 2019, 02:41:23 PM
Are you sitting down?

David Davis on Post-Brexit Global Trade (February 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V4dbzVRoq4

Thanks for the warning Carana. 

Did he mention NO DEAL, stockpiling, troops on the streets etc....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2019, 03:22:18 PM
Thanks for the warning Carana. 

Did he mention NO DEAL, stockpiling, troops on the streets etc....
No, but he did in effect say that they need us more than we need them, so nil desperandum.  We all need to relax and wait for the EU to cave in and give us everything we want which they surely will on or around the 28th March.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 27, 2019, 03:41:43 PM

The Exchange Rate between Euro and Pound is a teensy bit better today, although only fractional better than it has been and nothing to write home about.

I wonder what caused that.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 27, 2019, 03:43:07 PM
The Exchange Rate between Euro and Pound is a teensy bit better today, although only fractional better than it has been and nothing to write home about.

I wonder what caused that.

The pound will strengthen once the UK leaves the EU and it becomes clear that all the scaremongering was for nothing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2019, 03:45:16 PM
The pound will strengthen once the UK leaves the EU and it becomes clear that all the scaremongering was for nothing.
At what point do you expect that to happen and under what circumstances- deal or no deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 27, 2019, 03:51:03 PM
The pound will strengthen once the UK leaves the EU and it becomes clear that all the scaremongering was for nothing.

I have watched this for twenty years, and it has only ever got progressively worse.  It will take some time for The Pound to get back to where it was in the beginning, if it ever does.

Not that I care all that much any more.  It's swings and roundabouts for me since The French State stepped in to help me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 04:10:15 PM
Thanks for the warning Carana. 

Did he mention NO DEAL, stockpiling, troops on the streets etc....


He worked for Tate & Lyle for 17 years and worked in Canada at some point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_(British_politician)

Not sure how that qualified him to become Brexit Secretary, which involves rather a lot more than shifting sugarr.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 04:14:34 PM
The pound will strengthen once the UK leaves the EU and it becomes clear that all the scaremongering was for nothing.

Do you mean at 23:10 on 29 March, once all the international deals have been signed and are ready for immediate implementation?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 04:54:23 PM
The pound will strengthen once the UK leaves the EU and it becomes clear that all the scaremongering was for nothing.

Vis-à-vis which currency?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2019, 04:56:58 PM

He worked for Tate & Lyle for 17 years and worked in Canada at some point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Davis_(British_politician)

Not sure how that qualified him to become Brexit Secretary, which involves rather a lot more than shifting sugarr.
Perhaps Theresa thought if he asked the EU very nicely, with sugar on top, he'd get a sweet deal. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 05:11:18 PM

Faisal Islam
‏Verified account @faisalislam

This is the sort of EU27 backing that Ireland has been getting this week - Mark Rutte Dutch PM talking to UK reporters in Davos:

“Backstop wasn’t our idea” ... [ie UKs too] Given UKs red lines “it’s only thing on the table”... “what concessions do UK actually want?”

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1089533497558122496

Dutch PM also says no one wants a return to the Troubles.

Who has a viable solution to that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 06:06:02 PM

Channel 4 News
‏Verified account @Channel4News

"A second referendum is not the preferred option for the Labour Party."

Len McCluskey says that with the Remain campaign "having lost", "coming out of the European Union is not the end of the world, providing you conclude an agreement that protects jobs".

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1089573237816733697


I give up on the lot of them...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 06:11:12 PM
Peter Stefanovic
‏Verified account @PeterStefanovi2

Andrew Marr “So you don’t think people’s lives are threatened by no deal?”
Matt Hancock “so long as everyone does what they need to do.
. these things are always difficult!”
Not very comforting words from the Health Secretary!
https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1089479426566434816


Which is?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2019, 06:12:45 PM
Channel 4 News
‏Verified account @Channel4News

"A second referendum is not the preferred option for the Labour Party."

Len McCluskey says that with the Remain campaign "having lost", "coming out of the European Union is not the end of the world, providing you conclude an agreement that protects jobs".

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1089573237816733697


I give up on the lot of them...
Did he give us any clues on what sort of an agreement would protect jobs?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 06:22:13 PM
Did he give us any clues on what sort of an agreement would protect jobs?

No idea, TBH.

There's this, if it helps.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-len-mccluskey-blasts-theresa-13901089
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2019, 06:33:08 PM
No idea, TBH.

There's this, if it helps.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-len-mccluskey-blasts-theresa-13901089
It’s all very well these smartarses criticising May and claiming they could do a better job, but has even one of them shed any light whatsoever on what they would have gone for in a negotiation with the EU or how they would have come out of such negotiations with anything approaching a better deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 06:48:37 PM
It’s all very well these smartarses criticising May and claiming they could do a better job, but has even one of them shed any light whatsoever on what they would have gone for in a negotiation with the EU or how they would have come out of such negotiations with anything approaching a better deal?

I found Ivan Rogers latest talk really interesting (and it's scathing about everyone, if that's any consolation for all camps).

No one seems to be interested.:(

Anyway, one of his points was (IIRC) that no one actually did have a viable alternative plan, but that most of the opposition (from either Labour or the right-wing of the Conservative party) was content to simply pick fault with the plan of the day.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 27, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
No comment....

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1089586660470345731
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2019, 10:09:02 PM
No comment....

https://twitter.com/OFOCBrexit/status/1089586660470345731
”we will rebuild!”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 06:04:00 AM

Brexiters never had a real exit plan. No wonder they avoided the issue
Nick Cohen
Sat 26 Jan 2019 18.30 GMT

...After the prize was awarded to a political fantasy, Cummings gave fair warning of what was coming next. Writing in 2015, he admitted that the campaign would offer no exit plan: hard Brexit, soft Brexit or any Brexit in between. “There is much to be gained from swerving the whole issue,” he explained. Opponents of the EU “have been divided for years”. In any case, “the sheer complexity of leaving would involve endless questions of detail that cannot be answered”.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/26/brexiters-never-had-a-real-exit-plan-no-wonder-they-avoided-the-issue?CMP=share_btn_tw
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 06:21:02 AM
Vicky Ford took the time to go through Lilley's "30 Myths".

https://twitter.com/vickyford/status/1088401489259884545
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 07:40:11 AM
Guy Verhofstadt
‏Verified account @guyverhofstadt

The time to agree an orderly withdrawal & deliver certainty is fast running out. Next week, the @Europarl_EN will start the process of ratifying the withdrawal agreement.
https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1089469964908666880




Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2019, 08:12:14 AM

As I said, Britain gave away it's rights, and now they can't have some of them back.

I didn't vote in the original Referendum because I was uneasy about what I thought we weren't being told, but we were all so much more naive in those days.  But I doubt it was ever intended to be just a Common Market.

Now, after the last two years of absolute chaos, I have no idea of what Britain should do.

Sorry, not much help I know.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2019, 10:09:21 AM
Vicky Ford took the time to go through Lilley's "30 Myths".

https://twitter.com/vickyford/status/1088401489259884545

I think the huge issue ... which was given little consideration initially ... is the Irish border and the opportunity it may give to idiots who in the past had a propensity for blowing people up and who became quite good at it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 11:57:28 AM
I think the huge issue ... which was given little consideration initially ... is the Irish border and the opportunity it may give to idiots who in the past had a propensity for blowing people up and who became quite good at it.

Probably because no-one expected the result they got. I was reading about the 1975 referendum where the question was whether to stay in or leave. Leaving then was supported by the left, on the whole. Tony Benn led the Leave campaign and it was supported by the SNP and the DUP. How times change.

There were idiots on both sides in the Troubles who blew people up. Some may have used the border to escape justice, others didn't. I don't understand how a strict border would lead to a rise in sectarian violence. In any case such a border is illegal under international law.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 01:16:48 PM
Probably because no-one expected the result they got. I was reading about the 1975 referendum where the question was whether to stay in or leave. Leaving then was supported by the left, on the whole. Tony Benn led the Leave campaign and it was supported by the SNP and the DUP. How times change.

There were idiots on both sides in the Troubles who blew people up. Some may have used the border to escape justice, others didn't. I don't understand how a strict border would lead to a rise in sectarian violence. In any case such a border is illegal under international law.

What type of border is illegal under international law?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 28, 2019, 01:31:54 PM
Probably because no-one expected the result they got. I was reading about the 1975 referendum where the question was whether to stay in or leave. Leaving then was supported by the left, on the whole. Tony Benn led the Leave campaign and it was supported by the SNP and the DUP. How times change.

There were idiots on both sides in the Troubles who blew people up. Some may have used the border to escape justice, others didn't. I don't understand how a strict border would lead to a rise in sectarian violence. In any case such a border is illegal under international law.

I heard on the radio that Jeremy Corbyn voted to leave in 1975 and has consistently voted against EU membership ever since.  I imagine he is in a bit of a bind at present. Go with his heart or try to gain power.  He so far is trying to gain power, which is all our political classes seem to care about IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 01:49:09 PM
As I said, Britain gave away it's rights, and now they can't have some of them back.

I didn't vote in the original Referendum because I was uneasy about what I thought we weren't being told, but we were all so much more naive in those days.  But I doubt it was ever intended to be just a Common Market.

Now, after the last two years of absolute chaos, I have no idea of what Britain should do.

Sorry, not much help I know.

I read something early this morning, but have since lost the link, about how the Irish referendum on abortion was conducted. IIRC, people were apparently given all the information they needed to make an informed decision, before it took place.

Whether that's true or not, I don't see how any referendum is fair if people don't have all the information in advance.

For that reason, I disagree with the argument of "we already had a referendum, and a majority chose to leave".

No one, not even the government, knew what it would entail. And although a Select Committee inquiry found that dodgy tactics were used by the Leave campaign (Cambridge Analytica...), few seem to be questioning whether targeted groups of people were influenced by messages mostly based on lies.

The marketing techniques used on FB, etc., are as insidious as tabloid headlines that penetrate the subconscious, whether you read the article or not. The 21st century equivalent of subliminal advertising.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 01:50:01 PM
What type of border is illegal under international law?

The border which would emerge between Northern Ireland as part of a UK which was outside the EU and the Republic of Ireland as inside the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 01:55:40 PM
Here's an example for Derren Brown (short version).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg

I'll add a better link if I find one again. There's also another one that involves a toy shop. Don't want to spoil it if you haven't seen it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2019, 01:56:53 PM
I read something early this morning, but have since lost the link, about how the Irish referendum on abortion was conducted. IIRC, people were apparently given all the information they needed to make an informed decision, before it took place.

Whether that's true or not, I don't see how any referendum is fair if people don't have all the information in advance.

For that reason, I disagree with the argument of "we already had a referendum, and a majority chose to leave".

No one, not even the government, knew what it would entail. And although a Select Committee inquiry found that dodgy tactics were used by the Leave campaign (Cambridge Analytica...), few seem to be questioning whether targeted groups of people were influenced by messages mostly based on lies.

The marketing techniques used on FB, etc., are as insidious as tabloid headlines that penetrate the subconscious, whether you read the article or not. The 21st century equivalent of subliminal advertising.

So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and a it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the rest of the world without incurring EU tariffs.

The EU isn't working any more, half of Europe is either bankrupt or slowly going bankrupt. Unemployment in Spain, Portugal and Italy is completely out of control.  Why on earth would we ever want to be part of that disaster any more?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 01:58:29 PM
I read something early this morning, but have since lost the link, about how the Irish referendum on abortion was conducted. IIRC, people were apparently given all the information they needed to make an informed decision, before it took place.

Whether that's true or not, I don't see how any referendum is fair if people don't have all the information in advance.

For that reason, I disagree with the argument of "we already had a referendum, and a majority chose to leave".

No one, not even the government, knew what it would entail. And although a Select Committee inquiry found that dodgy tactics were used by the Leave campaign (Cambridge Analytica...), few seem to be questioning whether targeted groups of people were influenced by messages mostly based on lies.

The marketing techniques used on FB, etc., are as insidious as tabloid headlines that penetrate the subconscious, whether you read the article or not. The 21st century equivalent of subliminal advertising.

The facts about abortion are fairly easy to disseminate and understand unless you get involved in a theological argument. Quite different from Brexit imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 02:00:54 PM
I heard on the radio that Jeremy Corbyn voted to leave in 1975 and has consistently voted against EU membership ever since.  I imagine he is in a bit of a bind at present. Go with his heart or try to gain power.  He so far is trying to gain power, which is all our political classes seem to care about IMO.

Being a back bench MP is very different from being leader of your Party.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 02:02:32 PM
The border which would emerge between Northern Ireland as part of a UK which was outside the EU and the Republic of Ireland as inside the EU.

Is there an international law against that possibility?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 02:05:31 PM
The facts about abortion are fairly easy to disseminate and understand unless you get involved in a theological argument. Quite different from Brexit imo.

More so, certainly.

But wouldn't it have been better to hold a referendum once the options and the consequences of each had been worked out so that the GBP actually knew what they were voting for?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 02:06:31 PM
So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the world outside EU tariffs.

All I see are a lot of people who expected the electorate to vote to remain screaming and kicking because the electorate didn't vote the way they wanted them to.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 02:07:14 PM
So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and a it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the rest of the world without incurring EU tariffs.

The EU isn't working any more, half of Europe is either bankrupt or slowly going bankrupt. Unemployment in Spain, Portugal and Italy is completely out of control.  Why on earth would we ever want to be part of that disaster any more?

What's this thing about Germans? They're one of 28 members.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 02:09:28 PM
Is there an international law against that possibility?

As I understand it the treaties between the UK, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are enforceable under international law.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 02:11:52 PM
More so, certainly.

But wouldn't it have been better to hold a referendum once the options and the consequences of each had been worked out so that the GBP actually knew what they were voting for?

Was it discussed when the Referendim Bill was voted through Parliament? I don't know if it was or not.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2019, 02:15:14 PM
What's this thing about Germans? They're one of 28 members.

Maybe you haven't noticed but they run the EU.

Institutionally, the EU has become Germany writ large. The Commission, the European Parliament, European Council, and the European Court of Justice mirror the decentralized structure of Germany itself. The EU’s gospel of “subsidiarity” reflects the division of powers between Germany’s federal government and states (Länder). Germany ensures that Germans fill the leading positions in EU bodies. The EU rules through its institutions, but the German government rules those institutions.

http://www.atimes.com/article/really-runs-european-union-germany-thats/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on January 28, 2019, 02:20:14 PM
Probably because no-one expected the result they got. I was reading about the 1975 referendum where the question was whether to stay in or leave. Leaving then was supported by the left, on the whole. Tony Benn led the Leave campaign and it was supported by the SNP and the DUP. How times change.

There were idiots on both sides in the Troubles who blew people up. Some may have used the border to escape justice, others didn't. I don't understand how a strict border would lead to a rise in sectarian violence. In any case such a border is illegal under international law.

It was never all about 'sectarianism' in Northern Ireland ... anyone who has even the slightest knowledge about 'the troubles' has an awareness of the potential for division and criminality presented by the reintroduction of an unpoliceable border.
People who have lived with it are expressing fear that the very fine balance which is presently being enjoyed from the terrors of the past will be compromised.  I think a little research confirms that.

"It was the first time I had been to Northern Ireland since my friend, Bridie, wet herself when a British soldier pointed a gun at her. A bunch of 10-year-olds on a school trip, our bus was searched at the border."
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-good-friday-agreement-northern-ireland-troubles-violence-ira-border-a8297406.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 02:25:46 PM
All I see are a lot of people who expected the electorate to vote to remain screaming and kicking because the electorate didn't vote the way they wanted them to.

Fair enough. What I see is that a proportion of people didn't actually understand the implications of what they were voting for.

How many people who've needed the NHS, for themselves, or a loved one, or indeed staff, may have been targeted with messages about immigrants taking up resources and the infamous £350m slogan?

What about those who supported local fishing communities who didn't realise that the fish in their Fish'n'chips wasn't caught of their coast anyway?

What about those who voted to end freedom of movement for foreigners who didn't realise that it would restrict their own freedom of movement as well?

What about those who didn't realise that it would also mean less security, instead of more?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2019, 02:55:24 PM
Fair enough. What I see is that a proportion of people didn't actually understand the implications of what they were voting for.

How many people who've needed the NHS, for themselves, or a loved one, or indeed staff, may have been targeted with messages about immigrants taking up resources and the infamous £350m slogan?

What about those who supported local fishing communities who didn't realise that the fish in their Fish'n'chips wasn't caught of their coast anyway?

What about those who voted to end freedom of movement for foreigners who didn't realise that it would restrict their own freedom of movement as well?

What about those who didn't realise that it would also mean less security, instead of more?

This was always going to be a problem.  No one can immediately see what could or will happen if Britain leaves The EU.  Just as no one saw what would happen when Britain joined.

Each side promotes its own agenda, and covers up the bad bits, some of which they are undoubtedly aware of.

Theresa May as a Remainer probably knows more about the Brexit bad bits.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 03:12:14 PM
Maybe you haven't noticed but they run the EU.

Institutionally, the EU has become Germany writ large. The Commission, the European Parliament, European Council, and the European Court of Justice mirror the decentralized structure of Germany itself. The EU’s gospel of “subsidiarity” reflects the division of powers between Germany’s federal government and states (Länder). Germany ensures that Germans fill the leading positions in EU bodies. The EU rules through its institutions, but the German government rules those institutions.

http://www.atimes.com/article/really-runs-european-union-germany-thats/

More populous countries have more seats for MEP candidates that EU citizens can elect.

Yes, Germany has the most seats ( 2014: 96). Followed by France: 74; and joint third, UK and Italy: 73. Then Spain / Poland with 50

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/files/home-page/en-ep-brochure.pdf

However, up until now, UK citizens could vote for MEPs.

How is it elected?
England, Scotland and Wales

In a European Parliamentary election in England, Scotland and Wales, you have one vote to elect all of the MEPs for your region.

Each party puts forward a list of candidates – known as a regional list – and you vote for one of these lists or for an individual candidate standing as an independent.

The number of MEPs that are elected from each party to represent a region depends on the overall share of votes that each party receives.
Northern Ireland

In Northern Ireland, there is a different voting system where you vote by ranking the candidates in order of preference. This is called the Single Transferable Vote.

https://www.yourvotematters.co.uk/how-am-i-represented/european-parliment

How many UK citizens actually realised that they could vote for MEPs?

Since 1979 MEPs have been elected by direct universal suffrage for a five-year period.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/about

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 28, 2019, 03:51:14 PM
Being a back bench MP is very different from being leader of your Party.

Of course but I was trying to show his leanings on the Brexit debate.   We have a leaver on the opposition bench and a remainer in charge of brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 28, 2019, 04:05:28 PM
How democratic is it that John Bercow is able to allow or block different amendments when it suits him.   

He appears far from impartial to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 28, 2019, 04:09:19 PM
Since 1979 MEPs have been elected by direct universal suffrage for a five-year period.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/about

That's how we vote in the UK anyway, one adult man or woman...one vote (Scottish referendum rules aside).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 28, 2019, 04:59:37 PM
How democratic is it that John Bercow is able to allow or block different amendments when it suits him.   

He appears far from impartial to me.

Bercow is a horror story.  But they don't seem to be able to get rid of him.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 28, 2019, 06:06:09 PM
So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and a it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the rest of the world without incurring EU tariffs.

The EU isn't working any more, half of Europe is either bankrupt or slowly going bankrupt. Unemployment in Spain, Portugal and Italy is completely out of control.  Why on earth would we ever want to be part of that disaster any more?
IMO there is a complete disconnect between your two paragraphs.  One the one hand we have this all powerful superstate with its own army, secretly controlled by the super-efficient German master race, on the other hand we have a broken EU that is either bankrupt or heading that way, out of control and a complete disaster.  So, which is it, actually?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 28, 2019, 06:12:48 PM
“The heads of Sainsbury’s, Asda, Marks & Spencer and Waitrose said that supermarket shelves could start emptying within two weeks of a chaotic departure from the EU. They added that no amount of contingency planning could offset the risks and that they expected “significant risks to maintaining the choice, quality and durability of food that our customers have come to expect”.

“We are extremely concerned that our customers will be among the first to experience the realities of a no-deal Brexit,” they said”

Oh well, we’re all too fat as it is, I’m sure it will do us all good to go on the Brexit diet.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 06:28:20 PM
That's how we vote in the UK anyway, one adult man or woman...one vote (Scottish referendum rules aside).

But in addition, UK citizens have been able to vote for MEPs as well. When some people keep going on about "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" (e.g. Farage, ironically), every eligible UK citizen has been able to have a say in electing the MEPs from their region, according to the party grouping that they would be joining.

In addition, they also have a say in the makeup of the other main bodies, albeit indirectly.

The European Parliament
The European Parliament (EP) is the only parliamentary institution of the European Union (EU) that is directly elected by EU citizens aged 18 or older. Together with the Council of the European Union (also known as the 'Council'), which should not be confused with the European Council and the Council of Europe, it exercises the legislative function of the EU. The Parliament is composed of 751 members (MEPs), that will become 705 starting from the 2019–2024 legislature (because specific provisions adopted about Brexit), who represent the second-largest democratic electorate in the world (after the Parliament of India) and the largest trans-national democratic electorate in the world (375 million eligible voters in 2009).[3][4][5]

It has been directly elected by the European citizens (each EU Member State's national has his state's nationality and EU one consequently) every five years and by universal suffrage since 1979. However, voter turnout at European Parliament elections has fallen consecutively at each election since that date, and has been under 50% since 1999. Voter turnout in 2014 stood at 42.54% of all European voters.[6]

Although the European Parliament has legislative power, as does the Council, they do not formally possess legislative initiative (it is for the European Commission), as most national parliaments of European Union member states do.[7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament

The European Council
The European Council is a collective body that defines the European Union's overall political direction and priorities. It comprises the heads of state or government of the EU member states, along with the President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission. The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy also takes part in its meetings.[1]

(...) While the European Council has no formal legislative power, it is a strategic (and crisis-solving) body that provides the union with general political directions and priorities, and acts as a collective presidency. The European Commission remains the sole initiator of legislation, but the European Council is able to provide an impetus to guide legislative policy.[2][3] /
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council

The European Commission
The Commission operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners").[4] There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.[3] One of the 28 is the Commission President (currently Jean-Claude Juncker) proposed by the European Council[5] and elected by the European Parliament.[6] The Council of the European Union then nominates the other 27 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and the 28 members as a single body are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.[7] The current Commission is the Juncker Commission, which took office in late 2014, following the European Parliament elections in May of the same year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission


Council of the European Union

The Council of the European Union (...) is part of the essentially bicameral EU legislature (the other legislative body being the European Parliament) and represents the executive governments of the EU's member states.[2][1]
(...)
The Council of the European Union and the European Council are the only EU institutions that are explicitly intergovernmental, that is forums whose attendees express and represent the position of their member state's executive, be they ambassadors, ministers or heads of state/government.

(...)
The Council meets in 10 different configurations of 28 national ministers (one per state). The precise membership of these configurations varies according to the topic under consideration; for example, when discussing agricultural policy the Council is formed by the 28 national ministers whose portfolio includes this policy area (with the related European Commissioners contributing but not voting).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 06:41:04 PM
“The heads of Sainsbury’s, Asda, Marks & Spencer and Waitrose said that supermarket shelves could start emptying within two weeks of a chaotic departure from the EU. They added that no amount of contingency planning could offset the risks and that they expected “significant risks to maintaining the choice, quality and durability of food that our customers have come to expect”.

“We are extremely concerned that our customers will be among the first to experience the realities of a no-deal Brexit,” they said”

Oh well, we’re all too fat as it is, I’m sure it will do us all good to go on the Brexit diet.


https://twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1089929165137170432
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 06:43:04 PM
It was never all about 'sectarianism' in Northern Ireland ... anyone who has even the slightest knowledge about 'the troubles' has an awareness of the potential for division and criminality presented by the reintroduction of an unpoliceable border.
People who have lived with it are expressing fear that the very fine balance which is presently being enjoyed from the terrors of the past will be compromised.  I think a little research confirms that.

"It was the first time I had been to Northern Ireland since my friend, Bridie, wet herself when a British soldier pointed a gun at her. A bunch of 10-year-olds on a school trip, our bus was searched at the border."
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-good-friday-agreement-northern-ireland-troubles-violence-ira-border-a8297406.html

I didn't say it was all about sectarianism. I was replying to your post which seemed to suggest a connection between blowing people up and borders. Is anyone suggesting British troops are going to set up border checkpoints again?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 07:00:01 PM
I didn't say it was all about sectarianism. I was replying to your post which seemed to suggest a connection between blowing people up and borders. Is anyone suggesting British troops are going to set up border checkpoints again?

Not clear.
3 days ago:
     25 January 2019 at 4:08pm

Soldiers may return to Irish border in event of no-deal Brexit, warns Irish premier Leo Varadkarhttps://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-25/no-deal-brexit-could-mean-return-of-armed-border-posts-irish-premier-warns/


Today:
Monday 28 January 2019
Government forced to deny plans for Army to patrol Border in no-deal Brexit
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/government-forced-to-deny-plans-for-army-to-patrol-border-in-nodeal-brexit-37751008.html

Tomorrow...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2019, 08:26:05 PM
Not clear.
3 days ago:
     25 January 2019 at 4:08pm

Soldiers may return to Irish border in event of no-deal Brexit, warns Irish premier Leo Varadkarhttps://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-25/no-deal-brexit-could-mean-return-of-armed-border-posts-irish-premier-warns/


Today:
Monday 28 January 2019
Government forced to deny plans for Army to patrol Border in no-deal Brexit
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/government-forced-to-deny-plans-for-army-to-patrol-border-in-nodeal-brexit-37751008.html

Tomorrow...

He seems to be guessing what the UK government might do. That's not his job, and he has quite rightly been accused of scare-mongering.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 28, 2019, 10:34:07 PM
He seems to be guessing what the UK government might do. That's not his job, and he has quite rightly been accused of scare-mongering.

Don'tt know. Hard border surveillance could become a reality in the event of a no-deal, but he EU is unlikely to cede on the border issue.

But today isn't yet tomorrow...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 28, 2019, 10:52:47 PM
An interesting article from the Mirror...

Brexit has already been cancelled - and here's why they're not telling you
March 29 was a Brexiteer threat to bring people in line, and it has utterly failed

12:40, 23 JAN 2019Updated10:21, 24 JAN 2019
If Brexit were a film, it would be at the point where pages were being ripped off a calendar in a frenzy.

Tick, tock, goes the clock, as we get nearer to the day we were told was either the end of the beginning or beginning of the end. Only trouble is, March 29 is nothing but a plot device.

The fact is, Brexit is off. Formally ending the Article 50 legal clock is just an inevitable formality. When the nation finally realises this is a false ending you're going to see a lot of people avoiding the blame while you wonder why you've got to sit through any more of this tripe.

So allow me to explain.

We have had one meaningful vote, which achieved nothing meaningful. Next Monday Theresa May will present us with Plan B, which is exactly the same as Plan A but has had the 'A' Tipp-exed out. A second meaningful vote is scheduled for next Tuesday, in which Theresa will probably find she has negotiated her walloping, earlier defeat down to being a slightly-less walloping second defeat.

At this point, there will be fewer than 30 sitting days left for Parliament to pass all the legislation needed to Brexit with Theresa's deal. They might be able to increase it to 40 or so if they cancel half-term and Fridays.

To Brexit calmly and cleanly on March 29, in those 40 days Parliament must pass 9 Parliamentary bills and amend 600 other bits of legislation.

Now, that's a squeeze at the best of times. When the legislation involves things which make the whole nation argue furiously without coming to any agreement, it's going to be near-impossible.

Added to that, passing ANY laws under ANY circumstances in just 40 days - for debates in both the Commons and Lords, committee stages for detailed scrutiny, and several votes - is unwise to say the least.

That's how mistakes get made. They spent 6 months on the EU Referendum Bill, and cocked it up royally.

Video Loading
Question Time is proving an even more challenging experience as Brexit draws closer, says our man Kevin Maguire

"That's why I haven't written my memoirs yet - I'm still thinking of an excuse!" Credit: Graham Flack/Red Sky Shepherds Huts (Image: PA)
Of the 14 new bills required for Brexit - on things like animal welfare, money laundering and haulage - just 5 have been passed since the referendum.

Of the 9 remaining, the one closest to being finished is the Trade Bill - and the House of Lords just voted to shelve it because it lacked detail.

According to the government, this defeat means we are now unable to move to World Trade Organisation rules in the event of a no deal Brexit.

The government has been asked for this extra detail for 15 months, and has failed to come up with any. The chances of it doing so by a new deadline of February 25 are roughly the same as Ant McPartlin getting a safe driving award.


"AHAHA! Nice one Foxy" (Image: PA)
All the other bills are stuck in the digestive system of a Parliament still arguing about the principle of leaving. But there's an even worse issue in the shape of 12,000 EU regulations.

The government is transferring the vast majority of them straight into UK law, but some need to be tweaked using a statutory instrument. At first there was going to be about 1,000 of them, then 800, and finally last October it was decided we could get away with just changing 600 existing rules.

The government has submitted 333 of them so far. In other words, 75% of the time available for the task has elapsed, but only 56% of the work has been done.

Video Loading
PMQs: Jeremy Corbyn grills Theresa May over Customs Union

"Not my fault, guv'nor" (Image: AFP/Getty Images)
There's a further problem. Last year Parliament demanded more scrutiny of these "Henry VIII powers", in order to ensure it was done properly.

As a result, only 79 have been approved. That leaves 254 in the system, and 267 yet to be filed.

Those are the things that are needed to leave with Theresa's deal - which is why so many politicians are now fretting publicly about the threat of no deal.

The trouble is, NOT having a deal also requires legislation.


If only they spent more time in Parliament, and less on telly (Image: Getty Images Europe)
No deal means we have to pass that trade bill that's been shelved. It needs a financial services bill which has yet to get to the Commons for MP approval, and Parliament has also got to legislate for EU citizen's rights.

On top of that, no deal requires 60 new processes, 25 new IT systems, a "mega-bill" of 17 new laws to be passed by the Irish government, and - oh dear - all 600 of those statutory instruments to have been filed, read, and approved by MPs.

Not going to happen, is it? Not in 40 days, not in a month of Mondays.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 29, 2019, 03:00:58 AM
BREXIT won't be sorted overnight, it will take years to get everything into place so best to leave the EU on the 29 March and do the horse trading afterwards.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 29, 2019, 07:14:58 AM
BREXIT won't be sorted overnight, it will take years to get everything into place so best to leave the EU on the 29 March and do the horse trading afterwards.
I don’t think the British Public has the stomach for months / years of chaos and food shortages.  But we shall see soon enough...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2019, 07:49:01 AM
BREXIT won't be sorted overnight, it will take years to get everything into place so best to leave the EU on the 29 March and do the horse trading afterwards.

What a good idea.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 09:30:45 AM
OMG! A shortage of lettuce! How will we survive?  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 01:16:34 PM
Another rollercoaster day, apparently.

Amendments.
https://news.sky.com/story/how-mps-will-try-to-change-course-of-brexit-this-week-11619654
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 01:28:12 PM
OMG! A shortage of lettuce! How will we survive?  @)(++(*

The retailer consortium seems to be a little more concerned...

And Andrew Bridgen repeats the myth (first propagated by JRM, IIRC) that the UK will have tariff-free trade for 10 years under WTO's GATT Article XXIV while they thrash out an FTA. Spoiler: no it won't.
https://www.channel4.com/news/conservative-mp-andrew-bridgen-eu-will-blink-and-offer-us-better-terms
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 03:39:26 PM
BREXIT won't be sorted overnight, it will take years to get everything into place so best to leave the EU on the 29 March and do the horse trading afterwards.

If you mean leave with no deal, the UK will be a half-dead nag, and the vultures will be swirling.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 29, 2019, 04:21:19 PM
OMG! A shortage of lettuce! How will we survive?  @)(++(*


I haven't heard of anyone being worried about a shortage of lettuce but some seem to be anxious about vital medicines.
Whether they are correct to be anxious, I have no idea.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2019, 04:26:18 PM
On a lighter note.  Been to the Banque Alimentair again today.  Really good, as ever.  And funded by The EU as well as food donated by local Supermarkets, only some of which is Sell by Date.

No one is ever made to feel belittled.

This for me is authorised by the local Mairie due to my appalling British State Pension which the whole of France thinks is a joke.

I have a lot to be thankful for.

My son tells me that Food Banks in Britain are also funded by The EU, so I am hard pushed to understand why Food Bank recipients in Britain are so despised.  Presumably this funding will stop if Britain leaves The EU.

No, I am not advocating Remain.  Probably the best that can be said is that France manages waste so much better than Britain, and has been doing so for more than Thirty years.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 05:14:09 PM
On a lighter note.  Been to the Banque Alimentair again today.  Really good, as ever.  And funded by The EU as well as food donated by local Supermarkets, only some of which is Sell by Date.

No one is ever made to feel belittled.

This for me is authorised by the local Mairie due to my appalling British State Pension which the whole of France thinks is a joke.

I have a lot to be thankful for.

My son tells me that Food Banks in Britain are also funded by The EU, so I am hard pushed to understand why Food Bank recipients in Britain are so despised.  Presumably this funding will stop if Britain leaves The EU.

No, I am not advocating Remain.  Probably the best that can be said is that France manages waste so much better than Britain, and has been doing so for more than Thirty years.

Good to hear that France is being helpful to you!

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 29, 2019, 05:27:12 PM
OMG! A shortage of lettuce! How will we survive?  @)(++(*
On turnips apparently.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2019, 05:30:50 PM
Good to hear that France is being helpful to you!

France always has been, Carana.  This is why it has been difficult for me to decide what I think would be best for Britain.  But I still think that Brexit would be best.

France only see me as living below the bread line.  They aren't interested in my Nationality.  I am poor by their standards, so they help me.

More to the point, why are British State Pensions so disgusting?  I worked for all of my adult life for what I get.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 29, 2019, 05:40:19 PM
Whoever thinks a vote to leave the EU meant a no-deal Brexit should ask themselves why pre-referendum a document called Our Case which Leave campaigners were encouraged to download and distribute to voters, and which is still available on their campaign website says: “Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop — we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 05:43:15 PM
Whoever thinks a vote to leave the EU meant a no-deal Brexit should ask themselves why pre-referendum a document called Our Case which Leave campaigners were encouraged to download and distribute to voters, and which is still available on their campaign website says: “Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop — we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave”.

That should be another for Led by Donkeys.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 29, 2019, 05:58:48 PM
Aww, back in the good old days pre referendum when it all seemed so easy, so cake-and-eat-it, this was how it was going to work

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 06:50:24 PM
On a lighter note.  Been to the Banque Alimentair again today.  Really good, as ever.  And funded by The EU as well as food donated by local Supermarkets, only some of which is Sell by Date.

No one is ever made to feel belittled.

This for me is authorised by the local Mairie due to my appalling British State Pension which the whole of France thinks is a joke.

I have a lot to be thankful for.

My son tells me that Food Banks in Britain are also funded by The EU, so I am hard pushed to understand why Food Bank recipients in Britain are so despised.  Presumably this funding will stop if Britain leaves The EU.

No, I am not advocating Remain.  Probably the best that can be said is that France manages waste so much better than Britain, and has been doing so for more than Thirty years.

I was reading about why some people think it makes sense for those living permanently in France to apply for a residency permit or carte de sejour. You may have one, but if not these people know all about it;
https://www.remaininfrance.org/carte-de-sejour.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 07:20:00 PM
Channel 4 News
Published on Jan 29, 2019
Sabine Weyand, the EU's Deputy Brexit negotiator, gives her thoughts in a panel discussion on the Irish backstop, Theresa May's Brexit deal and the EU's future relationship with the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNe8qK_-wUI
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 29, 2019, 07:21:17 PM
I was reading about why some people think it makes sense for those living permanently in France to apply for a residency permit or carte de sejour. You may have one, but if not these people know all about it;
https://www.remaininfrance.org/carte-de-sejour.html

I don't actually need a Carte de Sejour.  It is only an identity card, and my French Driving Licence fullfills that.  I can more than adequately prove that I have lived here permanently for 25 years, and submitted an Inland Revenue Declaration for every one of those years.  I also have adequate Health Insurance.

Should things change then our local Assistant Social will have to help me as I am no longer totally compos mentis, and can't speak French anyway, said she.

But I do appreciate your desire to help.

There is such a lot of utter claptrap talked about this.  No one is going to make life difficult for me at my age, and after all of this time.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 29, 2019, 07:48:58 PM
I don't actually need a Carte de Sejour.  It is only an identity card, and my French Driving Licence fullfills that.  I can more than adequately prove that I have lived here permanently for 25 years, and submitted an Inland Revenue Declaration for every one of those years.  I also have adequate Health Insurance.

Should things change then our local Assistant Social will have to help me as I am no longer totally compos mentis, and can't speak French anyway, said she.

But I do appreciate your desire to help.

There is such a lot of utter claptrap talked about this.  No one is going to make life difficult for me at my age, and after all of this time.

Hmmm. I think you should think about it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 29, 2019, 09:22:09 PM
I don't actually need a Carte de Sejour.  It is only an identity card, and my French Driving Licence fullfills that.  I can more than adequately prove that I have lived here permanently for 25 years, and submitted an Inland Revenue Declaration for every one of those years.  I also have adequate Health Insurance.

Should things change then our local Assistant Social will have to help me as I am no longer totally compos mentis, and can't speak French anyway, said she.

But I do appreciate your desire to help.

There is such a lot of utter claptrap talked about this.  No one is going to make life difficult for me at my age, and after all of this time.

France is going to do anything to jeopardize expats bringing money into their country or the many French working in the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2019, 10:23:08 PM
So Parliament has sort of said what it wants and the EU has said they're not getting it. So it continues. If a deal isn't agreed then legally we leave on 29th March without one.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 30, 2019, 08:09:10 AM
HOLD MY HAND WHILE WE JUMP OFF THIS CLIFF by Brian Bilston

‘Let’s jump off this cliff – it’ll be fun! A right laugh!’
urged all the people (well, I mean just over half
of those who had bothered to speak up at all).
I peered down at the rocks; it was a long way to fall.

I said, ‘This cliff’s more than three hundred feet high
and my doctor tells me if I jump I will die.’
‘Cliff-jumping’s fine!’ they said. ‘Don’t trust doctors, trust us!
We read all about it on the side of a bus.’

Worried, I met up with my local MP.
I shared my concerns. He was forced to agree:
‘Why the rocks below would smash you to bits!
Where did you get this idea of jumping off cliffs?’

‘It was the will of some of the people,’ I said
and his expression changed to another instead.
‘I think,’ he revised, ‘you’re being melodramatic.
The problem is you. You’re undemocratic.’

On the clifftop, we waited. In silence we stood.
Then a voice: ‘Remind me, why is cliff-jumping good?’
But we looked down at our shoes, baffled and stumped.
Then, out of embarrassment, we held hands and jumped.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 11:00:18 AM
It seems to me that the only way Parliament can stop May taking us out of the EU now is to get a vote through Parliament revoking Article 50. Whether any MP wants to propose such a course is another matter. Who wants to be seen as the MP who proposed deliberately ignoring the will of the people expressed in a democratic vote?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 11:42:44 AM
It seems to me that the only way Parliament can stop May taking us out of the EU now is to get a vote through Parliament revoking Article 50. Whether any MP wants to propose such a course is another matter. Who wants to be seen as the MP who proposed deliberately ignoring the will of the people expressed in a democratic vote?

I can't say I've seen much of those sunlight uplands that people were promised....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 11:45:14 AM
EU re changes to backstop: https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1090517326632550401
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 11:46:14 AM
Promises and reassurances.
https://twitter.com/RenierRobert/status/1090537853883437057


https://twitter.com/Happy39887283/status/1090531593582755840
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 11:54:58 AM
A range of comments I found interesting ...in no order.


Nina Schick
‏Verified account @NinaDSchick

It’s going well so far - Spain is lobbying furiously to put the question of Gibraltar back on the table should the WA be reopened. Other member states want to look again at fishing rights in UK waters.


John Simpson
‏Verified account @JohnSimpsonNews


When I was the BBC political editor, in the early 1980s, I was shocked by the ignorance of most MPs about the way the outside world worked. Judging from today's proceedings in Parliament, things don't seem to have changed much.


Peter Grant MP
‏Verified account @PeterGrantMP


Peter Grant MP Retweeted Jessica Elgot

Your reminder, as happens every time MPs vote on Brexit, that Tory MPs are allowed to change their minds from 2 weeks ago but 60 million people are not allowed to change their minds from over 2 years ago.


Peter Jukes
‏Verified account @peterjukes


1. Never call a referendum with a binary choice which actually has multiple answers.
2. Never start a clock on negotiations before you’ve worked out what you negotiating positions is.
3. Don’t expect your trading status to increase because you screwed up 1 and 2.


Scientists for EU
‏ @Scientists4EU
21h21 hours ago

US meat lobby "wants the sale of growth hormone-fed beef, currently banned in the UK and EU, to be allowed in the UK" post-Brexit.

So much control.



Yvette Cooper
‏Verified account @YvetteCooperMP

My speech from earlier on why No Deal & WTO tariffs would hit manufacturing, public services & hard pressed families - and why Govt needs to make sure we don’t end up with a No Deal cliff edge at end of March
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1090359099328475138

Two tweets on happily denying what Digby-Jones had said previously:

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1090413046927970304
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 12:09:43 PM
I can't say I've seen much of those sunlight uplands that people were promised....

I think it's too late to blame campaigners for the way people voted. All campaigns have a goal; to ensure their view prevails. In an ideal world campaigners would carry out careful research and present an honest case. In the real world they don't. Anyone who doesn't know that is living in a bubble.

It's also too late to suggest that those who voted to leave were deceived wuthout realising it. Those who think their fellow citizens are easily duped are treating them just as the media and some politicians did. It suggests that the poor ignorant easily led voters made a mistake. How patronising.

I think the truth is that people knew what they preferred and voted for it. It doesn't matter what their reasons were, it's the result that matters. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 12:30:16 PM
I think it's too late to blame campaigners for the way people voted. All campaigns have a goal; to ensure their view prevails. In an ideal world campaigners would carry out careful research and present an honest case. In the real world they don't. Anyone who doesn't know that is living in a bubble.

It's also too late to suggest that those who voted to leave were deceived wuthout realising it. Those who think their fellow citizens are easily duped are treating them just as the media and some politicians did. It suggests that the poor ignorant easily led voters made a mistake. How patronising.

I think the truth is that people knew what they preferred and voted for it. It doesn't matter what their reasons were, it's the result that matters.

I have no problem with people voting on what they believed to be the best option, for themselves, loved ones, country.

I have no problem with campaigners putting their best foot forward.

My problem is that they were deliberately fed a mixture of misleading and even Twilight Zone "alternative facts" to get them to vote the way they did.

Some percentage of the Leave population no doubt thought that the UK would be able to invest £350m per week in the NHS. If you work in the NHS and had been faced with trying to keep up standards despite cutbacks, or if you or a loved one had been ill and had a problem due to lack of funding, I can understand that that pulls on heartstrings and reason. Except that it was never true.

Is it undemocratic to ask people, now that more information is on the table, whether their views are the same 2 years later?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2019, 12:41:29 PM
I have no problem with people voting on what they believed to be the best option, for themselves, loved ones, country.

I have no problem with campaigners putting their best foot forward.

My problem is that they were deliberately fed a mixture of misleading and even Twilight Zone "alternative facts" to get them to vote the way they did.

Some percentage of the Leave population no doubt thought that the UK would be able to invest £350m per week in the NHS. If you work in the NHS and had been faced with trying to keep up standards despite cutbacks, or if you or a loved one had been ill and had a problem due to lack of funding, I can understand that that pulls on heartstrings and reason. Except that it was never true.

Is it undemocratic to ask people, now that more information is on the table, whether their views are the same 2 years later?

As I expected given the EU intransigence, more and more people who originally voted remain say that they would now vote leave in any second referendum. Hardly surprising is it given the conduct and comments by senior EU officials?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 12:51:58 PM
As I expected given the EU intransigence, more and more people who originally voted remain say that they would now vote leave in any second referendum. Hardly surprising is it given the conduct and comments by senior EU officials?

Such as?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 01:01:51 PM
France is going to do anything to jeopardize expats bringing money into their country or the many French working in the UK.

Why would any country not want (legal) money coming into their country?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on January 30, 2019, 02:10:15 PM
A range of comments I found interesting ...in no order.


Nina Schick
‏Verified account @NinaDSchick

It’s going well so far - Spain is lobbying furiously to put the question of Gibraltar back on the table should the WA be reopened. Other member states want to look again at fishing rights in UK waters.


John Simpson
‏Verified account @JohnSimpsonNews


When I was the BBC political editor, in the early 1980s, I was shocked by the ignorance of most MPs about the way the outside world worked. Judging from today's proceedings in Parliament, things don't seem to have changed much.


Peter Grant MP
‏Verified account @PeterGrantMP


Peter Grant MP Retweeted Jessica Elgot

Your reminder, as happens every time MPs vote on Brexit, that Tory MPs are allowed to change their minds from 2 weeks ago but 60 million people are not allowed to change their minds from over 2 years ago.


Peter Jukes
‏Verified account @peterjukes


1. Never call a referendum with a binary choice which actually has multiple answers.
2. Never start a clock on negotiations before you’ve worked out what you negotiating positions is.
3. Don’t expect your trading status to increase because you screwed up 1 and 2.


Scientists for EU
‏ @Scientists4EU
21h21 hours ago

US meat lobby "wants the sale of growth hormone-fed beef, currently banned in the UK and EU, to be allowed in the UK" post-Brexit.

So much control.



Yvette Cooper
‏Verified account @YvetteCooperMP

My speech from earlier on why No Deal & WTO tariffs would hit manufacturing, public services & hard pressed families - and why Govt needs to make sure we don’t end up with a No Deal cliff edge at end of March
https://twitter.com/YvetteCooperMP/status/1090359099328475138

Two tweets on happily denying what Digby-Jones had said previously:

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1090413046927970304

I quite like Digby Jones.... I met him about 40 years ago before he made his mark...met him in a pub called..The Digby.. He wasn't allowed to speak and explain but he campaigned fir Brexit... So that makes me feel better... As he explained the Germans sell us a million cars, a year... Make all our trains... So they will want to trade with us and where the Germans lead others  will follow
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 02:57:34 PM
I quite like Digby Jones.... I met him about 40 years ago before he made his mark...met him in a pub called..The Digby.. He wasn't allowed to speak and explain but he campaigned fir Brexit... So that makes me feel better... As he explained the Germans sell us a million cars, a year... Make all our trains... So they will want to trade with us and where the Germans lead others  will follow

I listened to him last night and this morning.

So, he's gone from assuring everyone that not a single job would be lost, to now saying that people will be glad in 100 years' time that they'd got out... Not sure about anyone else, but I doubt that I'll be around to verify that.

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/801457523949715456/video/1
https://twitter.com/bbc5live/status/1090587682453868544

There have also been some odd clips last night or this am, in which he stated that the EU wouldn't let the UK
"leave". When asked, he kept dodging the issue: he made it sound as if the UK couldn't leave the EU, but the context was the backstop.

Couldn't make head nor tail of it.

NB

Here's one (interviewed by Andrew Neil).
https://twitter.com/GeoFreC/status/1090622606070505474

Hmm, no sorry, that's just a very short clip. I listened to a longer clip. He also refused to clarify the difference between the EU and the CU in the interview with Femi, posted earlier.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 03:33:56 PM
Here's another one.

Tuesday, November 27, 2018

Lord Digby Jones has said he will only support Theresa May's Brexit deal if the backstop clause "is revoked".

The cross-bench peer claimed that the backstop, which would keep the UK tied to the customs union, was not what leave voters wanted.
 
"Yes I am [supporting Brexit deal], with one exception, which is that I'm not going to vote for it in the Lords if we don't get that last little clause to move which says if we're still in the backstop as they call it, this thing that happens if we haven't sorted out Northern Ireland by the time the transition period ends, then the EU reserve the right to say when we can leave," he told Julia Hartley-Brewer.

Read more at https://talkradio.co.uk/news/lord-digby-jones-says-he-will-only-support-brexit-deal-if-backstop-clause-revoked-18112728968#WTbmGIG3chpjTlQt.99
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 03:44:50 PM
Unless this is incorrect, the EU (and May) want a backstop in the WA. Which it is.

It would come into effect in the event of a no-deal, or if no broad deal is agreed with the EU after the transition period - which can be extended once, if need be.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-44615404

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 30, 2019, 03:50:31 PM
Unless this is incorrect, the EU (and May) want a backstop in the WA. Which it is.

It would come into effect in the event of a no-deal, or if no broad deal is agreed with the EU after the transition period - which can be extended once, if need be.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-44615404

Sorry Carana what is a WA?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 04:16:06 PM
Sorry Carana what is a WA?

Sorry, Withdrawal Agreement.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2019, 04:32:27 PM
Such as?

Have you not heard the condescending comments they made about the UK and those who voted leave?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/849738/Brexit-news-EU-negotiator-Michel-Barnier-slammed-educate-Britain

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/06/eu-attacks-on-chequers-plan-confused-claim-uk-brexit-negotiators

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-uk-eu-customs-plan-northern-ireland-theresa-may-a8368101.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 04:42:29 PM
Have you not heard the condescending comments they made about the UK and those who voted leave?

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/849738/Brexit-news-EU-negotiator-Michel-Barnier-slammed-educate-Britain

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/06/eu-attacks-on-chequers-plan-confused-claim-uk-brexit-negotiators

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-uk-eu-customs-plan-northern-ireland-theresa-may-a8368101.html

He didn't say those who voted Leave, but I'd need to hear the original.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 04:48:40 PM
Oh dear. Farage (and Bridgen yesterday) waffling about Article 24 of the GATT. Again.

My best guess is that their idea orginated from the ERG. All the actual WTO trade negotiators that I read have been banging their heads trying to point out that their understanding is simply wrong. It came up again yesterday evening in the Commons and Stephen Baker pointed out that their understanding of it was wrong.

But it seems to be a cornerstone of how they think they can sail with a no-deal exit.


https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1090641013570502657

I have more links if anyone is really interested.

Sir Ivan Rogers tries to explain...
https://twitter.com/BackTheMacUK/status/1090642385435009025
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 30, 2019, 05:44:05 PM
I think it's too late to blame campaigners for the way people voted. All campaigns have a goal; to ensure their view prevails. In an ideal world campaigners would carry out careful research and present an honest case. In the real world they don't. Anyone who doesn't know that is living in a bubble.

It's also too late to suggest that those who voted to leave were deceived wuthout realising it. Those who think their fellow citizens are easily duped are treating them just as the media and some politicians did. It suggests that the poor ignorant easily led voters made a mistake. How patronising.

I think the truth is that people knew what they preferred and voted for it. It doesn't matter what their reasons were, it's the result that matters.
Idon’t think it’s patronizing to say that some if not most people who voted in the referendum didn’t fully understand the ramifications of Brexit, details which are now much clearer. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 06:31:29 PM
Idon’t think it’s patronizing to say that some if not most people who voted in the referendum didn’t fully understand the ramifications of Brexit, details which are now much clearer.

It's a bit like anything really. Take the Poll Tax. The people experienced it and rejected it. For all they knew they were jumping from the drying pan into the fire, but they didn't care so long as they got out of the frying pan.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 30, 2019, 06:43:44 PM
It's a bit like anything really. Take the Poll Tax. The people experienced it and rejected it. For all they knew they were jumping from the drying pan into the fire, but they didn't care so long as they got out of the frying pan.
It’s a bit more complex than the Poll Tax plus no one voted for that one way or the other.  It did cause riots however, perhaps we have those to look forward to later in the year.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 30, 2019, 07:03:19 PM
It's a bit like anything really. Take the Poll Tax. The people experienced it and rejected it. For all they knew they were jumping from the drying pan into the fire, but they didn't care so long as they got out of the frying pan.

A problem is that, once people had experienced the poll tax and expressed their disagreement with it, it was scrapped and life went back to normal.

With Brexit, there won't be any going back. Not for a generation or more and not with the concessions that the UK has had so far.

JRM & co. insist that a no-deal is nothing to worry about, but still don't grasp that Article 24 won't apply, but which they seem to be counting on. And those who think the UK can simply walk away from their side of the divorce bill (the EU also has obligations to fulfill towards the UK) and retain any sort of credibility are dreaming. IMO.

And then there are those who advocate "technological" solutions to the Irish border, but are incapable of explaining what they might be and how they might work. From everything I've read so far, that may not be surprising as they don't exist
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 07:59:21 PM
It’s a bit more complex than the Poll Tax plus no one voted for that one way or the other.  It did cause riots however, perhaps we have those to look forward to later in the year.

A dreadful tax.
She who introduced it in Scotland first, will be long remembered .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 08:22:27 PM
A dreadful tax.
She who introduced it in Scotland first, will be long remembered .

She made me thankful for the House of Lords. I had three children at Secondary school and as it was over 3 miles away a free bus was provided. Her government decided to scrap that and make parents pay for the bus. It was quite a chunk for 3 children so I was grateful when the Lords refused to pass it. Probably because a lot of their employees would have been affected, but I was still grateful.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 08:32:59 PM
She made me thankful for the House of Lords. I had three children at Secondary school and as it was over 3 miles away a free bus was provided. Her government decided to scrap that and make parents pay for the bus. It was quite a chunk for 3 children so I was grateful when the Lords refused to pass it. Probably because a lot of their employees would have been affected, but I was still grateful.

I don't remember that, probably because it didn't apply here or possibly because my three had a ten minute walk to school.
I only know that the lovely prayer of St. Francis has never had the same resonance since her usage of it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2019, 08:45:19 PM
Idon’t think it’s patronizing to say that some if not most people who voted in the referendum didn’t fully understand the ramifications of Brexit, details which are now much clearer.

People wanted to leave the EU...end off!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
A problem is that, once people had experienced the poll tax and expressed their disagreement with it, it was scrapped and life went back to normal.

With Brexit, there won't be any going back. Not for a generation or more and not with the concessions that the UK has had so far.

JRM & co. insist that a no-deal is nothing to worry about, but still don't grasp that Article 24 won't apply, but which they seem to be counting on. And those who think the UK can simply walk away from their side of the divorce bill (the EU also has obligations to fulfill towards the UK) and retain any sort of credibility are dreaming. IMO.

And then there are those who advocate "technological" solutions to the Irish border, but are incapable of explaining what they might be and how they might work. From everything I've read so far, that may not be surprising as they don't exist

A VAT checking system already operates between N Ireland and the Republic of Ireland so no real problem in extending it.  The entire 'backstop' shenanigan is a false flag which suits Dublin as the UK leaving the EU will have serious consequences for Ireland.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 08:56:37 PM
People wanted to leave the EU...end off!!

Have you any concerns about leaving the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 30, 2019, 09:08:11 PM
People wanted to leave the EU...end off!!
End off (sic) what?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 30, 2019, 09:23:25 PM
Have you any concerns about leaving the EU?

None whatsoever.  No pain no gain they say.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 09:30:50 PM
None whatsoever.  No pain no gain they say.

Must be great having no doubts.
What makes you feel so confident?
You seem to have an antipathy to anything European.?
Is that what gives you the self assuredness that the pain will be worthwhile?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 30, 2019, 09:58:11 PM
After the fiasco in Parliament last night I see a 'No Deal' Brexit as a distinct possibility now.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 30, 2019, 10:17:20 PM
After the fiasco in Parliament last night I see a 'No Deal' Brexit as a distinct possibility now.

Some say they are playing into May's hands. She has just gained more time to mess around while a no-deal exit gets closer all the time.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2019, 10:26:32 PM
Some say they are playing into May's hands. She has just gained more time to mess around while a no-deal exit gets closer all the time.

Yes, possibly that is what is most desired by Brexiteers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 08:01:45 AM
Yes, possibly that is what is most desired by Brexiteers.

Those who want to leave with a deal need to accept the deal on the table now. The UK have never been in harmony with the EU and I expect they're sick of us.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 08:16:45 AM

De Galle was right.  Britain should never have joined.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 31, 2019, 08:17:00 AM
Those who want to leave with a deal need to accept the deal on the table now. The UK have never been in harmony with the EU and I expect they're sick of us.
What about those who want to leave with no deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 08:40:58 AM
Those who want to leave with a deal need to accept the deal on the table now. The UK have never been in harmony with the EU and I expect they're sick of us.

Perhaps England and.Wales "have never been in harmony with the EU" but that does not apply to Scotland.and Northern Ireland.
Hence, why the majority in both those countries voted to remain.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 09:55:56 AM
Perhaps England and.Wales "have never been in harmony with the EU" but that does not apply to Scotland.and Northern Ireland.
Hence.why the majority in both those.countries voted to remain.

The majority in your country voted to remain part of the UK, so it's time to accept that's your position and that not all Scotland's people agree with you.





Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 10:10:16 AM
The majority in your country voted to remain part of the UK, so it's time to accept that's your position and that not all Scotland's people agree with you.

Are you telling me I have no right to express my own opinion?
Stripped of "nationhood" by your goodself and now being told to accept a "position" which many others disagree with and which certainly could change.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 10:30:02 AM
Are you telling me I have no right to express my own opinion?
Stripped of "nationhood" by your goodself and now being told to accept a "position" which many others disagree with and which certainly could change.

Sorry, I didn't reaise you were expressing your own opinion. In my opinion your post seemed to be suggesting that you were expressing the views of all your fellow Scots.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 10:34:18 AM
Sorry, I didn't reaise you were expressing your own opinion. In my opinion your post seemed to be suggesting that you were expressing the views of all your fellow Scots.

Just shows how mistaken your opinion can sometimes be.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 12:05:29 PM
Just shows how mistaken your opinion can sometimes be.

Or how misleading your posts can be......
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 03:11:04 PM
A VAT checking system already operates between N Ireland and the Republic of Ireland so no real problem in extending it.  The entire 'backstop' shenanigan is a false flag which suits Dublin as the UK leaving the EU will have serious consequences for Ireland.

It's not just VAT. There are rules of origin issues, regulatory alignment issues.

It's not just about trade, either. A hard border would violate the Good Friday Agreement, but without some form of instrastructure to monitor what's going in and out of the bloc or the UK, there could be massive smuggling and / or dumping.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 31, 2019, 03:30:44 PM
It's not just VAT. There are rules of origin issues, regulatory alignment issues.

It's not just about trade, either. A hard border would violate the Good Friday Agreement, but without some form of instrastructure to monitor what's going in and out of the bloc or the UK, there could be massive smuggling and / or dumping.

This already goes on and lots more besides. People near the border buy their goods and services from whichever side of the border is cheapest.  Meat and fuels are regularly smuggled across the border by criminal gangs associated with former prescribed organisations and that will continue regardless of BREXIT.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 03:34:30 PM
A dreadful tax.
She who introduced it in Scotland first, will be long remembered .

Dreadful? in what way.

Juts because it was imposed in an disgraceful way by MT does not make it a bad tax infact I would vote for it now if done properly.

Poll tax was a tax on each individual living in an accomodation. if 5 people over working age lived in a house then fve people would be responsible for their share. The two things I objected to was : the way it was imposed without consultation and proper education as to how it worked.
the second thing was many women who were stay at home mums were chased for this tax if their husbands refused to pay it and spent it on drink/drugs/gambling. therefore it was not an individual taxt at all as described.

What we have now is evil.  bedroom tax?  what if the bedrooms are empty? not enough one bedroom homes are available people suffered greatly.

and what about the widow/er on a pension- who lives alone- paying just 25%less than a family of 5 high earners ? hmm yeah thanks for voting for that much much better.eh?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 03:42:57 PM
Dreadful? in what way.

Juts because it was imposed in an disgraceful way by MT does not make it a bad tax infact I would vote for it now if done properly.

Poll tax was a tax on each individual living in an accomodation. if 5 people over working age lived in a house then fve people would be responsible for their share. The two things I objected to was : the way it was imposed without consultation and proper education as to how it worked.
the second thing was many women who were stay at home mums were chased for this tax if their husbands refused to pay it and spent it on drink/drugs/gambling. therefore it was not an individual taxt at all as described.

What we have now is evil.  bedroom tax?  what if the bedrooms are empty? not enough one bedroom homes are available people suffered greatly.

and what about the widow/er on a pension- who lives alone- paying just 25%less than a family of 5 high earners ? hmm yeah thanks for voting for that much much better.eh?

Your usual presumptive rant.
I assume you think it fair that our son who was a student at the time had to pay a sizeable portion of the poll tax and that people  on moderate incomes paid the same as high earners.
As far as I am aware there is no bedroom tax in Scotland.
A local income tax would in my opinion be a fairer action.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 31, 2019, 03:46:02 PM
It's not just VAT. There are rules of origin issues, regulatory alignment issues.

It's not just about trade, either. A hard border would violate the Good Friday Agreement, but without some form of instrastructure to monitor what's going in and out of the bloc or the UK, there could be massive smuggling and / or dumping.

Regulatory alignment wouldn't be a problem for the time being.  Our manufacturing has been aligned with the EU for years.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 03:48:16 PM
This already goes on and lots more besides. People near the border buy their goods and services from whichever side of the border is cheapest.  Meat and fuels are regularly smuggled across the border by criminal gangs associated with former prescribed organisations and that will continue regardless of BREXIT.

This is undoubtedly true.  But hardly in massive quantities, and probably won't be.

I don't know what is to be done about The Border between North and South Ireland, but Karma springs to my mind.  I think that The North should deal with this.  It is in fact their problem.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 03:48:23 PM
Perhaps England and.Wales "have never been in harmony with the EU" but that does not apply to Scotland.and Northern Ireland.
Hence, why the majority in both those countries voted to remain.

The people of scotland whom you claim to speak on behalf  of have never voted to remain in the EU. Due to the fact that Scotland as part of the UK voted to leave. Now you can huff and puff about it but this is the facts:

1 Scottish people was offered Independance from the UK (not just England) they voted NO
2.  The UK with  a legal mandate to include Scotland in national descisions voted Leave the EU

SNP with some of their 2nd 3rd generation Irish voters want to ignore the majority. 

 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 04:16:38 PM
The people of scotland whom you claim to speak on behalf  of have never voted to remain in the EU. Due to the fact that Scotland as part of the UK voted to leave. Now you can huff and puff about it but this is the facts:

1 Scottish people was offered Independance from the UK (not just England) they voted NO
2.  The UK with  a legal mandate to include Scotland in national descisions voted Leave the EU

SNP with some of their 2nd 3rd generation Irish voters want to ignore the majority. 

 

I am not sure that Irish Voters have much to do with this, although I am half Southern Irish with a passion for Scotland. 

But then I don't need to have a passion for Southern Ireland.  They have sorted their own problems.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 04:23:31 PM
I am not sure that Irish Voters have much to do with this, although I am half Southern Irish with a passion for Scotland. 

But then I don't need to have a passion for Southern Ireland.  They have sorted their own problems.

The reference to 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters is only one of the misleading statements.
Good luck with responding to the post.

The reference to 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters is indicative of the attitude of some here  in Scotland who do not like the independence movement, not for political reasons but for entirely different reasons.
I've seen quite enough of Mistaken posts to know exactly her agenda.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 04:27:52 PM
Regulatory alignment wouldn't be a problem for the time being.  Our manufacturing has been aligned with the EU for years.

So far. But in the event of a no-deal, what's to stop the UK importing goods (e.g. meat products or whatever else) from e.g. the US or elsewhere with lower phytosanitary standards and trying to re-export it via Ireland to the rest of the EU?

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/06/13/clean-break-why-the-sanitary-and-phytosanitary-framework-matters/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 31, 2019, 04:37:47 PM
So far. But in the event of a no-deal, what's to stop the UK importing goods (e.g. meat products or whatever else) from e.g. the US or elsewhere with lower phytosanitary standards and trying to re-export it via Ireland to the rest of the EU?

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/06/13/clean-break-why-the-sanitary-and-phytosanitary-framework-matters/

The country of origin would still be where we imported it from unless you are talking about companies committing fraud.  If they were going to commit a fraud of that type they probably would be trying to pass off horse as beef or something equally illegal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 04:57:51 PM
The country of origin would still be where we imported it from unless you are talking about companies committing fraud.  If they were going to commit a fraud of that type they probably would be trying to pass off horse as beef or something equally illegal.

I expect most manufacturers / exporters would want to keep to EU rules, but the EU would presumably still want reassurance. It the situation were another country leaving, presumably the UK would also want a similar reassurance that dodgy / banned goods weren't sneaking in. More controls / paperwork than now, I would think, which takes us back to the backstop conundrum.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 05:33:13 PM
So far. But in the event of a no-deal, what's to stop the UK importing goods (e.g. meat products or whatever else) from e.g. the US or elsewhere with lower phytosanitary standards and trying to re-export it via Ireland to the rest of the EU?

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/06/13/clean-break-why-the-sanitary-and-phytosanitary-framework-matters/

Britain used to import New Zealand Lamb, until they dumped New Zealand, in favour of The EU.

France has had New Zealand Lamb in its super market freezer cabinets for all of the 25 years that I have lived here.  How did that come about?

France is not sheep country, and the price of fresh lamb here is way beyond your average consumer.

Mostly a few odd farmers keep a herd of sheep which they sell off to any comers.  But I wouldn't mind betting that most of it in supermarkets is imported.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 05:54:34 PM
The reference to 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters is only one of the misleading statements.
Good luck with responding to the post.

The reference to 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters is indicative of the attitude of some here  in Scotland who do not like the independence movement, not for political reasons but for entirely different reasons.
I've seen quite enough of Mistaken posts to know exactly her agenda.

Trying to belittle me just doesn't work. Save for  the playground.

I have no agenda I voted with a concience and I am entitld to do so. As the mjority who cared did! 

It is the Irish catholics  who hate the English and that influence was brought across the Irish sea  when the troubles were in full swing.

 I have a distrust and dislike of all religions which preach hatred and is complicit in murder/torture rape or men women and children who pay into the coffers for the privelidged pampered holy people- on behalf of God ofcourse.

I see your fustration at not being able to repond to my posts in an adult manner.  oh and so can many others.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 31, 2019, 05:57:56 PM
Britain used to import New Zealand Lamb, until they dumped New Zealand, in favour of The EU.

France has had New Zealand Lamb in its super market freezer cabinets for all of the 25 years that I have lived here.  How did that come about?

France is not sheep country, and the price of fresh lamb here is way beyond your average consumer.

Mostly a few odd farmers keep a herd of sheep which they sell off to any comers.  But I wouldn't mind betting that most of it in supermarkets is imported.

The Uk still import NZ lamb. however, we have a lot of sheep here in Scotland. Those who reside in Skye have a special kind of sheep.  On the mainland the sheep walk along the side of the road and watch for traffic- on skye they just bloody walk right in front of you. I named them the kamakaze sheep!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 06:12:52 PM
Trying to belittle me just doesn't work. Save for  the playground.

I have no agenda I voted with a concience and I am entitld to do so. As the mjority who cared did! 

It is the Irish catholics  who hate the English and that influence was brought across the Irish sea  when the troubles were in full swing.

 I have a distrust and dislike of all religions which preach hatred and is complicit in murder/torture rape or men women and children who pay into the coffers for the privelidged pampered holy people- on behalf of God ofcourse.

I see your fustration at not being able to repond to my posts in an adult manner.  oh and so can many others.

And yet again your bigotry is shining brightly  and clearly for all to see.

Why you have chosen to bring into the discussion the "hatred of the English " is beyond me.
What on earth the  question of Catholic 2nd and 3rd generation Irish voters has to do with the independence movement is irrelevant.
Seeking independence has nothing to do with hatred of anyone.

It is a pity you have chosen to sully this thread with your unpleasant and bigoted views.
As I have said your agenda is all too clear.


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 06:21:02 PM
Britain used to import New Zealand Lamb, until they dumped New Zealand, in favour of The EU.

France has had New Zealand Lamb in its super market freezer cabinets for all of the 25 years that I have lived here.  How did that come about?

France is not sheep country, and the price of fresh lamb here is way beyond your average consumer.

Mostly a few odd farmers keep a herd of sheep which they sell off to any comers.  But I wouldn't mind betting that most of it in supermarkets is imported.

Not quite sure I understand how that market works.

Sheep

    Ireland exported 13,000 tonnes of sheep meat to the UK in 2016.
    In the UK market, almost 90% of UK lamb imports come from outside the EU (New Zealand and Australia), while UK exports go predominantly to four EU Member States, with France accounting for 50% of these.
    The key issue for the sheep sector will be the decisions taken on the division of the large EU TRQ for New Zealand lamb– any displacement of NZ lamb imports, which currently go to the UK market, could have a negative impact on the overall value of the EU lamb market.

https://www.ifa.ie/brexit/brexit-ireland/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 06:41:16 PM
I've been reading that some folk are stockpiling certain food items incase there is a no-deal Brexit.
Having taken delivery of a grocery order this afternoon, I decided to pay attention to where the items originated.
It is sometimes difficult to know as some are labelled packed in the UK but may not be sourced here.
So far the potatoes, carrots, beef, lamb, haddock,cream, butter and fresh beef burgers originate in Scotland.
The cheese is labelled British.
Cucumber from Morocco, sweetheart cabbage  from Spain,  and lager from Italy.
So no need to stockpile any of those except the cabbage and lager.lol.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 06:46:28 PM
The Uk still import NZ lamb. however, we have a lot of sheep here in Scotland. Those who reside in Skye have a special kind of sheep.  On the mainland the sheep walk along the side of the road and watch for traffic- on skye they just bloody walk right in front of you. I named them the kamakaze sheep!

I remember the days when the Bus would stop to get some sheep or other off the road.  There was nothing strange about that.  I can't remember if the Bus was late.  It didn't matter.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 06:49:12 PM
I've been reading that some folk are stockpiling certain food items incase there is a no-deal Brexit.
Having taken delivery of a grocery order this afternoon, I decided to pay attention to where the items originated.
It is sometimes difficult to know as some are labelled packed in the UK but may not be sourced here.
So far the potatoes, carrots, beef, lamb, haddock,cream, butter and fresh beef burgers originate in Scotland.
The cheese is labelled British.
Cucumber from Morocco, sweetheart cabbage  from Spain,  and lager from Italy.
So no need to stockpile any of those except the cabbage and lager.lol.

Where did the Whiskey come from?  You never can tell these days.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 31, 2019, 06:51:04 PM
I've been reading that some folk are stockpiling certain food items incase there is a no-deal Brexit.
Having taken delivery of a grocery order this afternoon, I decided to pay attention to where the items originated.
It is sometimes difficult to know as some are labelled packed in the UK but may not be sourced here.
So far the potatoes, carrots, beef, lamb, haddock,cream, butter and fresh beef burgers originate in Scotland.
The cheese is labelled British.
Cucumber from Morocco, sweetheart cabbage  from Spain,  and lager from Italy.
So no need to stockpile any of those except the cabbage and lager.lol.
In 2015 29% of food consumed in the UK came from the EU, 19% from the rest of the world put together.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 06:56:00 PM
Where did the Whiskey come from?  You never can tell these days.

What we have in the house is definitely Scotch Whisky.
I don't like it but can enjoy  a Glayva.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2019, 06:59:17 PM
In 2015 29% of food consumed in the UK came from the EU, 19% from the rest of the world put together.

It's the Italian food and wine which I will be stockpiling @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 07:32:04 PM
What we have in the house is definitely Scotch Whisky.
I don't like it but can enjoy  a Glayva.

Don't worry about it.  I'll drink yours.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 31, 2019, 07:33:23 PM
It's the Italian food and wine which I will be stockpiling @)(++(*

You want some Pasta?  I've got loads of it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 07:37:05 PM
The Uk still import NZ lamb. however, we have a lot of sheep here in Scotland. Those who reside in Skye have a special kind of sheep.  On the mainland the sheep walk along the side of the road and watch for traffic- on skye they just bloody walk right in front of you. I named them the kamakaze sheep!

I was puzzled in the Hebrides by the sheep going where they liked despite being able to see a lot of fencing. Someone said the fences were erected because they were a condition of getting some grant or other. The cattle wandered too. Some days the children came home from school at a very high speed when the local 'tup' was out and about.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 07:59:52 PM
I've been reading that some folk are stockpiling certain food items incase there is a no-deal Brexit.
Having taken delivery of a grocery order this afternoon, I decided to pay attention to where the items originated.
It is sometimes difficult to know as some are labelled packed in the UK but may not be sourced here.
So far the potatoes, carrots, beef, lamb, haddock,cream, butter and fresh beef burgers originate in Scotland.
The cheese is labelled British.
Cucumber from Morocco, sweetheart cabbage  from Spain,  and lager from Italy.
So no need to stockpile any of those except the cabbage and lager.lol.

Fresh fruit  and veg might be a problem until late spring, but then people have got spoilt with a wide array to choose from.

If the grocery retailers are expressing concern, it may not be just about that, but general household stuff. I'm not sure what is totally produced in the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 08:29:16 PM
The people of scotland whom you claim to speak on behalf  of have never voted to remain in the EU. Due to the fact that Scotland as part of the UK voted to leave. Now you can huff and puff about it but this is the facts:

1 Scottish people was offered Independance from the UK (not just England) they voted NO
2.  The UK with  a legal mandate to include Scotland in national descisions voted Leave the EU

SNP with some of their 2nd 3rd generation Irish voters want to ignore the majority. 

 

However, at the time, no one had heard of Brexit.

Would the indyref have been the same if Scotland had known that remaining in  the UK meant that it was going to leave the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2019, 08:46:41 PM
Fresh fruit  and veg might be a problem until late spring, but then people have got spoilt with a wide array to choose from.

If the grocery retailers are expressing concern, it may not be just about that, but general household stuff. I'm not sure what is totally produced in the UK.
]
About one fifth (19%) of the fruit and veg we import comes from Spain and one tenth from the Netherlands (11%)
Some of that will still get through, I expect, although we will probably pay more as Brexit's a good excuse to raise prices.


 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 09:04:41 PM
]
About one fifth (19%) of the fruit and veg we import comes from Spain and one tenth from the Netherlands (11%)
Some of that will still get through, I expect, although we will probably pay more as Brexit's a good excuse to raise prices.

Not just that it's an excuse, in a no-deal scenario it will cost the the supply chain more, plus a potential further downfall in the £.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on January 31, 2019, 11:15:04 PM
However, at the time, no one had heard of Brexit.

Would the indyref have been the same if Scotland had known that remaining in  the UK meant that it was going to leave the EU?

But Scotland would have to leave the EU if it voted for independence.  I remember it very clearly with the EU spokesman saying that Scotland would have to apply to join as a seperete country.

Don't you Carana?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9899322/Independent-Scotland-would-have-to-apply-from-scratch-to-join-EU.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 11:32:46 PM
But Scotland would have to leave the EU if it voted for independence.  I remember it very clearly with the EU spokesman saying that Scotland would have to apply to join as a seperete country.

Don't you Carana?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9899322/Independent-Scotland-would-have-to-apply-from-scratch-to-join-EU.html

I remembered having read that (or a similar article) after I'd posted. :) Thanks for the article. Interesting to read it again.

Yes, it makes sense that it would have to go through the whole process.

Another thought is how would a border between Scotland and whatever else is left of the UK work?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on January 31, 2019, 11:40:30 PM
Oh dear. Raab (who admitted that he hadn't realised how important the Dover-Calais trading route was) has now admitted he hasn't read all of the 35-page Good Friday Agreement.

https://twitter.com/OxfordDiplomat/status/1090918652101226496
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 01, 2019, 12:04:55 AM
]
About one fifth (19%) of the fruit and veg we import comes from Spain and one tenth from the Netherlands (11%)
Some of that will still get through, I expect, although we will probably pay more as Brexit's a good excuse to raise prices.
All the main supermarket chains do their damnedest to keep food prices low in case you hadn’t noticed- I doubt they will relish supply problems, tariffs and increased costs to themselves or their customers.  Still at least it’s only fruit and veg, not real food like chips and beans.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 01, 2019, 07:21:58 AM
All the main supermarket chains do their damnedest to keep food prices low in case you hadn’t noticed- I doubt they will relish supply problems, tariffs and increased costs to themselves or their customers.  Still at least it’s only fruit and veg, not real food like chips and beans.

Supermarkets do this by screwing the prices from farmers and other suppliers down as and when they wish to.

By the way perhaps we could all eat the food that goes to waste instead of importing some from the EU.

This is a crying shame IMO

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/fruit-vegetables-food-waste-farms-uk-birmingham-manchester-feedback-a8220171.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 08:49:55 AM
Not just that it's an excuse, in a no-deal scenario it will cost the the supply chain more, plus a potential further downfall in the £.

I can't imagine the supermarkets seperating the EU and British fruit and veg and selling them at different prices. I can imagine them raising all the prices to recoup any extra costs they have to pay. .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 09:20:30 AM
All the main supermarket chains do their damnedest to keep food prices low in case you hadn’t noticed- I doubt they will relish supply problems, tariffs and increased costs to themselves or their customers.  Still at least it’s only fruit and veg, not real food like chips and beans.

Do they? Is that why Aldi and Liddl are causing them such problems? Our local Aldi had barely any cars in it's car park when I began shopping there. Within a year there were queues to park and the place was full of ex Sainsbury shoppers.

It seems to have excaped your notice that chips and beans are vegetables. A third of our daily diet should be made up of carbohydrates which includes potatoes. They supply fibre, Vitamin C, potassium, Vitamin B6 and iron. Baked beans count as one of the 5 a day.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 01, 2019, 12:47:13 PM
However, at the time, no one had heard of Brexit.

Would the indyref have been the same if Scotland had known that remaining in  the UK meant that it was going to leave the EU?

I do not know one person who knows their EU MP. I know a great many people.

 However IF it is any consolation to your cause, be assured that the Scottish people have not been marching with claymores to downing street demanding independance from England- quite the contrary  they voted to stay.

 Now within that context the agreement was with regards to UK matters the descision would be put to UK voters, which it was. Again- I see no surge of English hatred, apart from some quarters, marching to downing street with claymore in hand or even a mandate  demanding remain in EU and leave UK.

Now can we please have a realistic arguement as to how  Scotland circumnavigates English air space and waters to get to the EU parliament and buy/sell  goods.

Carana?   



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2019, 01:06:17 PM
I do not know one person who knows their EU MP. I know a great many people.

 However IF it is any consolation to your cause, be assured that the Scottish people have not been marching with claymores to downing street demanding independance from England- quite the contrary  they voted to stay.

 Now within that context the agreement was with regards to UK matters the descision would be put to UK voters, which it was. Again- I see no surge of English hatred, apart from some quarters, marching to downing street with claymore in hand or even a mandate  demanding remain in EU and leave UK.

Now can we please have a realistic arguement as to how  Scotland circumnavigates English air space and waters to get to the EU parliament and buy/sell  goods.

Carana?

Scotland has quite a few ports, including Grangemouth.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/brexit-poses-significant-questions-for-scotland-s-ports-1-4693642

It also has quite a few aiports.

I'm not advocating one way or the other re Scotland and independence. I think it would be complicated in reality, and I have yet to note a single advantage of Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 01, 2019, 02:52:23 PM
Do they? Is that why Aldi and Liddl are causing them such problems? Our local Aldi had barely any cars in it's car park when I began shopping there. Within a year there were queues to park and the place was full of ex Sainsbury shoppers.

It seems to have excaped your notice that chips and beans are vegetables. A third of our daily diet should be made up of carbohydrates which includes potatoes. They supply fibre, Vitamin C, potassium, Vitamin B6 and iron. Baked beans count as one of the 5 a day.
Of course fried potato chips and baked beans packed with salt and sugar are health foods, akin to fresh fruit and veg, silly me.  Wishing German companies Aldi and Lidl all the best post-Brexit in keeping their prices low, and yes they are good examples of exactly what I meant.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 01, 2019, 07:14:49 PM
The body needs salt and sugar  it is what we need to survive actually. if you ever have  'the runs' or hangover this is what you require to take with water to rehydrate.

Ask your dentist about the sugar and acid in fresh friuts. stips the enamel off. Veg is covered in pesticides...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2019, 07:39:34 PM
Do they? Is that why Aldi and Liddl are causing them such problems? Our local Aldi had barely any cars in it's car park when I began shopping there. Within a year there were queues to park and the place was full of ex Sainsbury shoppers.

It seems to have excaped your notice that chips and beans are vegetables. A third of our daily diet should be made up of carbohydrates which includes potatoes. They supply fibre, Vitamin C, potassium, Vitamin B6 and iron. Baked beans count as one of the 5 a day.

Aldi and lidl are interesting cases...neither are public companies...the other supermarkets are and have to make a profit for their shareholders,,...Aldi and lidl are family owned and can operate at a loss to build market share...

Beans and chips is a very poor diet and to promote them as part of our 5 a day is a bit silly...but should we expect anything less...from a die hard sceptic
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2019, 07:41:27 PM
The body needs salt and sugar  it is what we need to survive actually. if you ever have  'the runs' or hangover this is what you require to take with water to rehydrate.

Ask your dentist about the sugar and acid in fresh friuts. stips the enamel off. Veg is covered in pesticides...

sugar in friuts does not strip of any enamel
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2019, 07:52:23 PM
sugar in friuts does not strip of any enamel

What does strip the enamel off teeth?
I'm too old to be bothered but one of the family does seem concerned about this.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2019, 08:00:22 PM
What does strip the enamel off teeth?
I'm too old to be bothered but one of the family does seem concerned about this.

fruit...fruit squash...fizzy drinks...diet fizzzy drinks ...acid reflux...acid is the new sugar
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2019, 08:07:01 PM
fruit...fruit squash...fizzy drinks...diet fizzzy drinks ...acid reflux...acid is the new sugar

Could be the diet fizzy drinks  for said family member.

Thankfully for me, no mention of wine? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 01, 2019, 08:11:14 PM
Could be the diet fizzy drinks  for said family member.

Thankfully for me, no mention of wine? @)(++(*

wine is a cause too....but we dont drink wine all day every day ,,...as some do diet coke...cider is another cause
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2019, 08:27:20 PM
Aldi and lidl are interesting cases...neither are public companies...the other supermarkets are and have to make a profit for their shareholders,,...Aldi and lidl are family owned and can operate at a loss to build market share...

Beans and chips is a very poor diet and to promote them as part of our 5 a day is a bit silly...but should we expect anything less...from a die hard sceptic

Whatever their background their strategy is working.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2692087/CITY-FOCUS-How-big-grocers-tough-time-Mail-mans-exclusive-look-Aldi-UK.html

I think you misunderstood me. Did you think I was advocating a diet of just chips and beans? I wasn't. What I was saying is that they do provide nutrients and are a perfectly acceptable part of our diets. It's a fact that baked beans count as one of the five a day, did you not know that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2019, 08:36:03 PM
Whatever their background their strategy is working.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2692087/CITY-FOCUS-How-big-grocers-tough-time-Mail-mans-exclusive-look-Aldi-UK.html

I think you misunderstood me. Did you think I was advocating a diet of just chips and beans? I wasn't. What I was saying is that they do provide nutrients and are a perfectly acceptable part of our diets. It's a fact that baked beans count as one of the five a day, did you not know that?

I don't like either of them.
Until someone else orders chips, then I will steal a few. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 01, 2019, 08:41:30 PM
I notice project fear is being rolled out more and more by the MSM as we approach BREXIT day.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2019, 08:44:54 PM
I notice project fear is being rolled out more and more by the MSM as we approach BREXIT day.  @)(++(*

No concerns at all?

If you have, probably wiling to face those concerns in the same way I would for independence?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 01, 2019, 08:56:04 PM
I really don't get it.

There are people who can't afford the basics of life, and some are scroungers. It's up to the authorities to work out who are really in need and who are scroungers.

But how has the  Corbyn faction actually provided an alternative, workable plan to the Brexit mess? I haven't come across one.

What concrete plan have  the members of the Euro-sceptic "European Research Group" (ERG), which most of the far-right faction of the Conservatives appear to belong to, offered that is not based on fantasy as opposed to reality? I haven't found anything viable in that direction either.

The latter do keep repeating the myth of a provision in the WTO rulebook which wouldn't apply (according to nearly every WTO / legal eagle that I've come across who has attempted to explain this. Ad nauseum).

With all this Brexit mess, is anyone (of either party) actually concentrating on issues that affect people here and now?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 01, 2019, 11:39:54 PM
I notice project fear is being rolled out more and more by the MSM as we approach BREXIT day.  @)(++(*
I’m going to put my neck on the line and say that a version of Theresa May’s deal will be accepted by parliament shortly, an extension to the deadline will be granted, we will leave the EU later in the year, the country will gradually go to shit over the ensuing year or so, and everyone will blame her for all the ills that befall the country that follow on from exit day. What will follow is a Labour government during which things will go from bad to worse, but Brexiteers will never, ever admit they were wrong and that it’s all Remainers fault.  How do you reckon it will play out?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 09:27:17 AM
I’m going to put my neck on the line and say that a version of Theresa May’s deal will be accepted by parliament shortly, an extension to the deadline will be granted, we will leave the EU later in the year, the country will gradually go to shit over the ensuing year or so, and everyone will blame her for all the ills that befall the country that follow on from exit day. What will follow is a Labour government during which things will go from bad to worse, but Brexiteers will never, ever admit they were wrong and that it’s all Remainers fault.  How do you reckon it will play out?

Sounds quite plausible to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on February 02, 2019, 11:29:02 AM
I’m going to put my neck on the line and say that a version of Theresa May’s deal will be accepted by parliament shortly, an extension to the deadline will be granted, we will leave the EU later in the year, the country will gradually go to shit over the ensuing year or so, and everyone will blame her for all the ills that befall the country that follow on from exit day. What will follow is a Labour government during which things will go from bad to worse, but Brexiteers will never, ever admit they were wrong and that it’s all Remainers fault.  How do you reckon it will play out?

Rumbles in Ireland ... rumbles in Gibraltar ... do we have any fisheries protection vessels left to patrol our waters?All predictable and much more to be added as reality bites home ... but Jeremy Corbyn in Downing Street I cannot envisage.

I don't think the electorate will contemplate promoting him from being the most (in my opinion) inept leader of HM Opposition ever to Prime Minister ... it just is not going to happen.

Hung parliaments and civil unrest look most likely to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 11:59:45 AM
Rumbles in Ireland ... rumbles in Gibraltar ... do we have any fisheries protection vessels left to patrol our waters?All predictable and much more to be added as reality bites home ... but Jeremy Corbyn in Downing Street I cannot envisage.

I don't think the electorate will contemplate promoting him from being the most (in my opinion) inept leader of HM Opposition ever to Prime Minister ... it just is not going to happen.

Hung parliaments and civil unrest look most likely to me.

From what I'm reading / hearing, both parties are split. Not sure what the solution is.

As I've said before, there is no longer just a horizontal plane (left-right), but also a vertical one (Remain or Leave).

Bannon's dream come true.

And why DOES RT's darling, Farage, get so much airtime?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 01:07:30 PM
From what I'm reading / hearing, both parties are split. Not sure what the solution is.

As I've said before, there is no longer just a horizontal plane (left-right), but also a vertical one (Remain or Leave).

Bannon's dream come true.

And why DOES RT's darling, Farage, get so much airtime?

Farage came across to many as an honest man. In my opinion Cameron's referendum was supposed to defeat what he was advocating and shut him up. It didn't work


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 02, 2019, 01:29:49 PM
Farage came across to many as an honest man. In my opinion Cameron's referendum was supposed to defeat what he was advocating and shut him up. It didn't work

The London based MSM had us all believing that any referendum would be defeated, in fact, didn't Farage nearly throw in the towel at the twelfth hour because he thought it was lost but the Labour voters in the Midlands and elsewhere voted to leave in the end and sealed the deal.  Cameron had to go, he was a liability.

For once, people power in the regions had defeated the London elitism which has so destroyed our democracy in recent years.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 02, 2019, 02:33:17 PM
The London based MSM had us all believing that any referendum would be defeated, in fact, didn't Farage nearly throw in the towel at the twelfth hour because he thought it was lost but the Labour voters in the Midlands and elsewhere voted to leave in the end and sealed the deal.  Cameron had to go, he was a liability.

For once, people power in the regions had defeated the London elitism which has so destroyed our democracy in recent years.

Someone attempting to explain at the end of 2017 how these 'elites' think and why. I see no change since, they atill think they're superior;


What explains the idiocy of the liberal elite? It’s their education


it has struggled to understand those strange creatures: ordinary people.

The elite is bemused by what drives these people to make perverse decisions about Brexit......Are they racist, narrow-minded or just stupid? Whatever the reason, ordinary people have frankly been a disappointment.

Why do lawyers, churchmen, the BBC and, indeed, most educated people support the EU — an organisation as saturated with smug self-righteousness as it is with corruption; one which created the euro, which in turn has caused millions of people to be unemployed; an organisation which combines a yawning democratic deficit with incompetence over immigration and economic growth?

Let’s try to understand why members of the elite get so cross when others don’t take the same view of Brexit...as they do.....People talk of a culture of entitlement among those who live on benefits. But the elite has its own entitlement culture. They think that because they studied English literature at Durham they understand the world better than a plumber in Croydon. They think they are superior and therefore their view should prevail. They also think they are morally superior
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/12/what-explains-the-idiocy-of-the-liberal-elite-its-their-education/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 02, 2019, 03:03:58 PM

Arrogance, you see.  They were convinced that Remain would win because that is what They wanted.  They somehow failed to see that your average voter has actually got a mind nowadays.  If They had seen any inkling of this coming you probably wouldn't have got a Referendum in the first place.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 03:06:38 PM
Those who hedged funds made a fortune. Farage denies he was one of them.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/26/nigel-farage-remain-won-brexit-bloomberg


Perhaps he didn't. But what was he grinning about in this photo showing the £ in freefall?
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/335am-june-24-2016-sterling-is-in-freefall-and-nigel-farage-is-beaming-picture-exclusive-1-5580360
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 02, 2019, 04:13:08 PM
Arrogance, you see.  They were convinced that Remain would win because that is what They wanted.  They somehow failed to see that your average voter has actually got a mind nowadays.  If They had seen any inkling of this coming you probably wouldn't have got a Referendum in the first place.

I wholeheartedly agree Eleanor.  They got complacent and thought that the entire country would fall into line. Wales, Scotland and N Ireland only voted remain both out of self interest and on political lines. In Scotland, those 40% of the electorate who voted for Independence also voted remain. In N Ireland, Irish nationalists represented by the SDLP and republicans represented by Sinn Fein voted on a purely political agenda since a split with the EU was perceived as being damaging to relationships with cousins over the Irish border.  Wales voted remain out of pure self interest as they have had millions doled out to them by the EU over the years and leaving the EU was perceived as being damaging to that finance stream.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 02, 2019, 04:18:40 PM
I’m going to put my neck on the line and say that a version of Theresa May’s deal will be accepted by parliament shortly, an extension to the deadline will be granted, we will leave the EU later in the year, the country will gradually go to shit over the ensuing year or so, and everyone will blame her for all the ills that befall the country that follow on from exit day. What will follow is a Labour government during which things will go from bad to worse, but Brexiteers will never, ever admit they were wrong and that it’s all Remainers fault.  How do you reckon it will play out?

 8(8-)) 8(8-))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 05:02:13 PM
Arrogance, you see.  They were convinced that Remain would win because that is what They wanted.  They somehow failed to see that your average voter has actually got a mind nowadays.  If They had seen any inkling of this coming you probably wouldn't have got a Referendum in the first place.

Cameron possibly felt boosted by the Scottish ref to remain in the UK... and the idea that he could squash the far right in the part via another ref may have gone to his head.

I find it incredible how many politicians assured the people of sunny uplands and then flat out denied it once reality started to set in.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 02, 2019, 05:10:20 PM
I wholeheartedly agree Eleanor.  They got complacent and thought that the entire country would fall into line. Wales, Scotland and N Ireland only voted remain both out of self interest and on political lines. In Scotland, those 40% of the electorate who voted for Independence also voted remain. In N Ireland, Irish nationalists represented by the SDLP and republicans represented by Sinn Fein voted on a purely political agenda since a split with the EU was perceived as being damaging to relationships with cousins over the Irish border.  Wales voted remain out of pure self interest as they have had millions doled out to them by the EU over the years and leaving the EU was perceived as being damaging to that finance stream.

Absolutely right, Angelo.

After seeing the appalling carry on of the last couple of years, I no longer care anymore.  I have dealt with the falling Pound for the last more than ten years.  The loss of my Winter Fuel Allowance.  And the joke that Britain has increasingly become.  And I expect to go on dealing with these things.

Much as some of you might not like it, The Euro is absolutely fine.  Food and Amenities here are not rising at an alarming rate.  And my Electricity and Water, along with House Taxes are still cheeper than in Britain, as is my Car and House Insurance.

Europe will have to deal with their poorer members.  Some of these poorer Countries have Pensions that I can only dream of.  And they are wasting money in the name of popularity.

My son needs a Cardiogram for a work related issue. He is not ill.  He turned up at the Doctor's Surgery unannounced yesterday as he needed a referral.   He was seen immediately.  He has an appointment at the local hospital in eight days time.
I can't help wondering just who has got this right.

Britain is the problem.  Britain gave up its own autonomy.  British Politicians despise you and treat you all like Pawns in their own little Chess Game while vying for who is going to be the next President of Europe.

Sorry if this is a bit convoluted, and a bit halfy halfy.  I can see the flaws in my argument.  But I did so want Britain to be its own Country again.  Now, I don't care anymore.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 05:12:01 PM
I wholeheartedly agree Eleanor.  They got complacent and thought that the entire country would fall into line. Wales, Scotland and N Ireland only voted remain both out of self interest and on political lines. In Scotland, those 40% of the electorate who voted for Independence also voted remain. In N Ireland, Irish nationalists represented by the SDLP and republicans represented by Sinn Fein voted on a purely political agenda since a split with the EU was perceived as being damaging to relationships with cousins over the Irish border.  Wales voted remain out of pure self interest as they have had millions doled out to them by the EU over the years and leaving the EU was perceived as being damaging to that finance stream.

Agree on the whole. But Wales voted Leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 02, 2019, 05:15:12 PM
Agree on the whole. But Wales voted Leave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum

Wales never did know what it was doing.  Their National Health System is the worst in Britain.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 02, 2019, 05:55:42 PM
Farage came across to many as an honest man. In my opinion Cameron's referendum was supposed to defeat what he was advocating and shut him up. It didn't work

He publicly stated on TV that he wanted the whole of Europe to be out of the EU. So far, that sounds quite Bannonish to me.

IMO, if certain powers have a strategic plan that involves creating chaos in Europe, then starting with the UK makes sense.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 10:01:44 AM
I expect most of us have seen the numerous anti-EU tabloid headlines over the years (or rather decades), with wild stories such as BoJo's bendy banana myth (I created a thread with a list of many of them).

IMO, it's dangerous to underestimate how this propaganda can subliminally influence people over time.

I also expect quite a few people also believe that those in authority actually know what they're talking about. I certainly used to.

I don't know how many of you are Derren Brown fans, but here's an example of how he is able to subliminally manipulate people. There are others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WSmjLMVa5I
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 10:13:00 AM
Someone has compiled a sourced list of Brexit consequences so far. Worth a read, IMO.

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1091020401822650371
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 10:17:07 AM
Farage came across to many as an honest man. In my opinion Cameron's referendum was supposed to defeat what he was advocating and shut him up. It didn't work

Hitler probably did to his fans as well.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 03, 2019, 10:17:52 AM
I expect most of us have seen the numerous anti-EU tabloid headlines over the years (or rather decades), with wild stories such as BoJo's bendy banana myth (I created a thread with a list of many of them).

IMO, it's dangerous to underestimate how this propaganda can subliminally influence people over time.

I also expect quite a few people also believe that those in authority actually know what they're talking about. I certainly used to.

I don't know how many of you are Derren Brown fans, but here's an example of how he is able to subliminally manipulate people. There are others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WSmjLMVa5I

The media have long argued that they reflect the views of the public rather than shaping them.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 10:25:16 AM
The media have long argued that they reflect the views of the public rather than shaping them.

To an extent, that's also true and it creates a vicious circle. However, the slant on stories in the Express and the Daily Mail in particular are blatantly xenophobic (IMO) and appear to be heavily influenced by their owners / editors.

The DM has sobered up a little since Dacre left.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 03, 2019, 11:26:41 AM
To an extent, that's also true and it creates a vicious circle. However, the slant on stories in the Express and the Daily Mail in particular are blatantly xenophobic (IMO) and appear to be heavily influenced by their owners / editors.

The DM has sobered up a little since Dacre left.

I'm pleased you recognise that xenophobia which was so prevelant in the McCann case also. Although some agreed with them many didn't, so it's clear they don't always reflect or shape public opinion. Neither do they inform, so the question arises as to what they're for. The public seem to be getting their news and information elsewhere and the newspapers have only themselves to blame imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 11:51:34 AM
I'm pleased you recognise that xenophobia which was so prevelant in the McCann case also. Although some agreed with them many didn't, so it's clear they don't always reflect or shape public opinion. Neither do they inform, so the question arises as to what they're for. The public seem to be getting their news and information elsewhere and the newspapers have only themselves to blame imo.

I have always been against xenophobia in the media, whatever the topic of discussion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 03, 2019, 11:58:33 AM
I have always been against xenophobia in the media, whatever the topic of discussion.

I would  think most of us are against xenophobia wherever it arises
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 03, 2019, 12:13:09 PM
I'm pleased you recognise that xenophobia which was so prevelant in the McCann case also. Although some agreed with them many didn't, so it's clear they don't always reflect or shape public opinion. Neither do they inform, so the question arises as to what they're for. The public seem to be getting their news and information elsewhere and the newspapers have only themselves to blame imo.

Information fron the internet us potentially more unreliable than the media
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 12:15:38 PM
I would  think most of us are against xenophobia wherever it arises

For any individual who suffers from a phobia of any kind, I can empathise.

I object when xenophobia (or any other) is used as a political means to influence public opinion.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 03, 2019, 12:24:09 PM
For any individual who suffers from a phobia of any kind, I can empathise.

I object when xenophobia (or any other) is used as a political means to influence public opinion.

Depends what you mean. By a phobia... And by xenophobia... I'm sure you have no sympathy for those who are homophobic
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 12:27:05 PM
Information fron the internet us potentially more unreliable than the media

It depends what you mean by the "Internet".

I access mainstream media via the Internet.

If you mean "social media"... I'm happy to listen to / read all kinds of views, at least for a while, but I also try to fact check as to who I find reliable or not. I do the same for the MSM.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 12:34:56 PM
Depends what you mean. By a phobia... And by xenophobia... I'm sure you have no sympathy for those who are homophobic

As I'm not homophobic, I can't sympathise, just empathise, as I would with anyone suffering from a neurotic condition. I once had a friend who had a phobia about flowers.

That said, I am firmly against any form of media that encourages a collective phobia, whether xeno- or homophobia or anything else.



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 03, 2019, 12:37:46 PM
It depends what you mean by the "Internet".

I access mainstream media via the Internet.

If you mean "social media"... I'm happy to listen to / read all kinds of views, at least for a while, but I also try to fact check as to who I find reliable or not. I do the same for the MSM.

I mean the internet as a whole... People claiming to be serious researchers... Presenting lies as facts.... I don't just refer to the McCann case but the internet as a whole.  It's important to be critical about much of what is presented as fact
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 03, 2019, 12:43:55 PM
As I'm not homophobic, I can't sympathise, just empathise, as I would with anyone suffering from a neurotic condition. I once had a friend who had a phobia about flowers.

That said, I am firmly against any form of media that encourages a collective phobia, whether xeno- or homophobia or anything else.

As I said it depends what is meant by xenophobia.... And homophobia..... In the context used in these posts neither have anything to do with a neurotic conditon
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 12:50:09 PM
As I said it depends what is meant by xenophobia.... And homophobia..... In the context used in these posts neither have anything to do with a neurotic conditon

I think we agree.

My objection concerns the media (MSM or SM) whipping up a collective anti-whatever sentiment of outrage for their own pollitical and /or financial gain.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 01:03:35 PM
I mean the internet as a whole... People claiming to be serious researchers... Presenting lies as facts.... I don't just refer to the McCann case but the internet as a whole.  It's important to be critical about much of what is presented as fact

I agree. No problem with that.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 03, 2019, 01:50:52 PM

Leaving EU without a deal is 'survivable' - Liam Fox
The international trade secretary says not having a deal would put the economy under unnecessary turmoil.

By Rebecca Taylor, political reporter

Sunday 3 February 2019 13:46, UK
https://news.sky.com/story/leaving-eu-without-a-deal-is-survivable-liam-fox-11627019

Not quite the sunny uplands. Is this what people voted for?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 04, 2019, 08:57:17 AM
 James Patrick 3rd February 2019   Alternative War, IT, Reportage, Tech   
Kremlin Social Media Backing Jacob Rees-Mogg (2018)

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/02/03/kremlin-social-media-backing-jacob-rees-mogg-2018/

Whodathunkit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 04, 2019, 10:34:29 AM
An, erm, unusual perspective...

JRM:
    He played down claims that businesses need certainty - a key argument made at the moment by business leaders and MPs arguing for a softer Brexit. When it was put to him that uncertainty about the UK’s future after Brexit was bad for business, he replied:

The truth is, business is all about uncertainty ...

There is no certainty in business. The whole art of business is trying to manage uncertainty. Investment decisions aren’t made for certain facts. You can’t be certain that anyone will buy your car when you have built it. All business is based on uncertainty, and managing uncertainty.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/feb/04/brexit-latest-news-developments-pm-asks-mps-to-find-alternative-arrangements-to-backstop-as-eu-insists-those-ideas-wont-work-politics-live?page=with:block-5c580b78e4b0d86c564387e5#block-5c580b78e4b0d86c564387e5
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 04, 2019, 12:26:27 PM
Someone attempting to explain at the end of 2017 how these 'elites' think and why. I see no change since, they atill think they're superior;


What explains the idiocy of the liberal elite? It’s their education


it has struggled to understand those strange creatures: ordinary people.

The elite is bemused by what drives these people to make perverse decisions about Brexit......Are they racist, narrow-minded or just stupid? Whatever the reason, ordinary people have frankly been a disappointment.

Why do lawyers, churchmen, the BBC and, indeed, most educated people support the EU — an organisation as saturated with smug self-righteousness as it is with corruption; one which created the euro, which in turn has caused millions of people to be unemployed; an organisation which combines a yawning democratic deficit with incompetence over immigration and economic growth?

Let’s try to understand why members of the elite get so cross when others don’t take the same view of Brexit...as they do.....People talk of a culture of entitlement among those who live on benefits. But the elite has its own entitlement culture. They think that because they studied English literature at Durham they understand the world better than a plumber in Croydon. They think they are superior and therefore their view should prevail. They also think they are morally superior
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/12/what-explains-the-idiocy-of-the-liberal-elite-its-their-education/


Wouldn't JRM, with hedge funds in Ireland, and what I find to be a patronising tone on matters that he really knows nothing about (or else pretends not to) classify as one of the elite?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 04, 2019, 01:05:12 PM
Ah. I'd forgotten that the MP (Daniel Kawczynski, Shrewsbury) who stated categorically that the UK wasn't a recipient of the Marshall Plan is the same one who "formally asked" the government of Poland to veto any motion in the EU to extend Art. 50.

https://twitter.com/DKShrewsbury/status/1090532149760008192

How does that compute with the concept of parliamentary democracy or even UK sovereignty?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2019, 01:07:20 PM

Wouldn't JRM, with hedge funds in Ireland, and what I find to be a patronising tone on matters that he really knows nothing about (or else pretends not to) classify as one of the elite?

We have been patronised by all and sundry in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 04, 2019, 01:25:24 PM
We have been patronised by all and sundry in my opinion.

True to a certain extent. And those who were brought up to "respect one's elders / superiors" may not have questioned it.

The captain of the Titanic is no longer around to give his view...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2019, 07:34:04 PM
True to a certain extent. And those who were brought up to "respect one's elders / superiors" may not have questioned it.

The captain of the Titanic is no longer around to give his view...

That respect was mostly lip service, not sincere imo.The power structure is much less obvious than it used to be. If you didn't pretend to respect certain people they thumped you.or sacked you.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 04, 2019, 09:34:07 PM
That respect was mostly lip service, not sincere imo.The power structure is much less obvious than it used to be. If you didn't pretend to respect certain people they thumped you.or sacked you.

Yes, but I wonder whether that may still be true for a lot of people. You expect a doctor or a lawyer to know their stuff, so why not politicians?

I didn't know what this GATT Art 24 thing was about, so I went to find out. And it's not at all what the ERG claims it is, yet they keep spouting it, in a patronising voice, as some kind of Harry Potter type of magical formula. It's not. LOL
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2019, 09:44:45 PM
Yes, but I wonder whether that may still be true for a lot of people. You expectt a doctor or a lawyer to know their stuff, so why not politicians?

I didn't know what this GATT Art 24 thing was about, so I went to find out. And it's not at all what the ERG claims it is, yet they keep spouting it, in a patronising voice, as some kind of Harry Potter type of magical forumula. It's not. LOL

If people assumed politicians knew their stuff they know better now unless they're blind and deaf. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 04, 2019, 10:39:01 PM
If people assumed politicians knew their stuff they know better now unless they're blind and deaf.

I never assumed the average politician knew, their stuff... Far from it. Most.. I think..... Are poorly qualified to make, any important decisions... But it doesn't matter because normally they simply vote as they are told to...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 04, 2019, 11:10:13 PM
I, for one, assumed JRM knew what he was talking about when he kept citing Art 24, and so didn't take much notice. Then something else he said later madee me go and check.

Not sure if i can find the clip of him saying, in this patronising voice of his, that the solution was simply to invoke Art. 24.

If I didn't find the situation so serious, I'd find it to be as cringeworthingly funny as the "Office".
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 05, 2019, 08:10:30 AM
I never assumed the average politician knew, their stuff... Far from it. Most.. I think..... Are poorly qualified to make, any important decisions... But it doesn't matter because normally they simply vote as they are told to...

It doesn't matter in this case either. All they need to do is accept the result of the referendum. Refusing to obey the party whips may hamper their promotion prospects. Refusing to obey the result of the people's democratic vote may lose them their jobs.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 05, 2019, 08:26:28 AM
It doesn't matter in this case either. All they need to do is accept the result of the referendum. Refusing to obey the party whips may hamper their promotion prospects. Refusing to obey the result of the people's democratic vote may lose them their jobs.
The fact they some seem prepared to risk both indicates the strength of their beliefs and the fact that they believe they are acting in the country’s best interests, not their own. IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 05, 2019, 09:25:23 AM
The fact they some seem prepared to risk both indicates the strength of their beliefs and the fact that they believe they are acting in the country’s best interests, not their own. IMO.

They might just be listening to those who shout the loudest. I don't think they realise how they are damaging their own and Parliament's credibility.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 05, 2019, 10:13:56 AM
It doesn't matter in this case either. All they need to do is accept the result of the referendum. Refusing to obey the party whips may hamper their promotion prospects. Refusing to obey the result of the people's democratic vote may lose them their jobs.

depends how their constituents voted   ...or didnt vote....I think most of the electorate wont take a lot of notice
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 10:22:53 AM

David Allen Green
‏ @davidallengreen

David Allen Green Retweeted Marcus Fysh MP

This MP is now on the Alternative Arrangements Working Group.

Seriously.



Marcus Fysh MP
Verified account @MarcusFysh
Replying to @SamuelMarcLowe
Ya da ya da gravity ya da ya da meaningless graphs, supposition and cod economics ya da ya da ya
10:21 PM - 4 Feb 2019



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 05, 2019, 01:16:54 PM
Hitler probably did to his fans as well.

I find that a most objectionable comment and I am surprised at you Carana. I am also surprised that a mod hasn't removed it.

I am not a fan of Nigel Farage but to compare him with Hitler is beneath contempt IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 01:39:42 PM
I find that a most objectionable comment and I am surprised at you Carana. I am also surprised that a mod hasn't removed it.

I am not a fan of Nigel Farage but to compare him with Hitler is beneath contempt IMO.

I wasn't comparing him to Hitler in the sense of what he later went on to do. I was referring to how some people seem to automatically command respect for some strange reason. The gift of the gab.

I accept that my point may not have come across clearly. 

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 01:45:53 PM
depends how their constituents voted   ...or didnt vote....I think most of the electorate wont take a lot of notice

Brexit fatigue has quite probably set in for many who may not be personally or professionally affected by it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on February 05, 2019, 01:56:13 PM
One has to decide, should we buy plentiful relatively cheap lamb from Australia and New Zealand after Brexit or pay more for the homegrown variety?  The reality of it is that more people will be able to have lamb on their table more often so is that necessarily a bad thing?  UK farmers must learn to produce good quality food at a reasonable price and not depend on subsidies amounting to around £100 per acre per annum for land which in many cases is left unploughed or ungrazed.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 02:03:14 PM
One has to decide, should we buy plentiful relatively cheap lamb from Australia and New Zealand after Brexit or pay more for the homegrown variety?  The reality of it is that more people will be able to have lamb on their table more often so is that necessarily a bad thing?  UK farmers must learn to produce good quality food at a reasonable price and not depend on subsidies amounting to around £100 per acre per annum for land which in many cases is left unploughed or ungrazed.

Ah, ok, over here. LOL

I'm still hunting for links.

Not the one I was thinking of, but anyway...
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/nfu-president-minette-batters-no-deal-brexit-sophy-ridge-on-sunday-february-3-2019-1-5877427

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/brexit-leaving-without-deal-would-be-a-disaster-says-farmers-union-37730538.html

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/brexit-leaving-without-deal-would-be-a-disaster-says-farmers-union-37730538.html

I still haven't found what I'm looking for, but there are a few points in the articles that I find salient.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 02:25:27 PM
Sorry, John, I can't find what I was looking for just now.

Going from memory, I'm just trying to remember the questions it raised for me.

Yes, unless in dire financial straits, and if given a choice, I support local produce (in whichever country I happen to be). Partly because I respect that the work is hard, many face problems due to cheaper imports, and also to reduce my "carbon footprint".

That's just a point, not a question.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 02:31:23 PM
The article I was looking for concerned the fact that many UK farmers export sheep meat, and the impact it would have on them.

While I'm trying to remember what I wanted to ask you, a few other questions, in no particular order.

- Do you currently receive a subsidy? If so, how will you manage if that disappears?

- Do you export or is your farm for national consumption?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 02:39:22 PM
The reality of it is that more people will be able to have lamb on their table more often so is that necessarily a bad thing? 

I don't get your point there. Why would your lamb be cheaper than cheaper imports if the UK, in all its current wisdom, decides to unilaterally abandon import tariffs? Or, conversely, why would a higher price mean that more people in the UK will have lamb on the table more often? The farmers who export would face a massive tariff on sheep meat. What will happen to them?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 02:45:56 PM
As predicted, Tory MP's heading off to the four corners of the world to do trade deals...Wonderful stuff!!

Well played Theresa   8@??)(   Onwards and upwards!!

58

I mistakenly clicked on the first page of this thread, which dates from 2016...



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 05, 2019, 03:51:12 PM
I don't get your point there. Why would your lamb be cheaper than cheaper imports if the UK, in all its current wisdom, decides to unilaterally abandon import tariffs? Or, conversely, why would a higher price mean that more people in the UK will have lamb on the table more often? The farmers who export would face a massive tariff on sheep meat. What will happen to them?

The question surely must be WHY are we importing lamb from Ireland and exporting our own?

The best case would be to use our own home grown lambs rather than going to all this extra cost and mileage.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 04:09:11 PM
The question surely must be WHY are we importing lamb from Ireland and exporting our own?

The best case would be to use our own home grown lambs rather than going to all this extra cost and mileage.

I'm not a lamb farmer, so I can't answer your question.

I'm still trying to find the link I'm thinking of.

I'm not in the fishing industry, either, but I discovered that the vast majority of fish caught by the UK is exported and the vast majority of fish (eg the fish in fish'n'chips) is imported. The reason is apparently that the species of fish that different cultures prefer are no longer within the traditional catchment areas, hence the swap.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 05, 2019, 04:13:39 PM
I'm not a lamb farmer, so I can't answer your question.

I'm still trying to find the link I'm thinking of.

I'm not in the fishing industry, either, but I discovered that the vast majority of fish caught by the UK is exported and the vast majority of fish (eg the fish in fish'n'chips) is imported. The reason is apparently that the species of fish that different cultures prefer are no longer within the traditional catchment areas, hence the swap.

That makes sense but not with lamb.  Sheep are sheep after all. And I am not a sheep farmer either.

It looks like we import around 90% of our cod because of stocks being low.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/19/sustainable-british-cod-on-the-menu-after-stocks-recover

When these stocks rise then I imagine we will catch our own cod.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 04:15:47 PM
That makes sense but not with lamb.  Sheep are sheep after all. And I am not a sheep farmer either.

It looks like we import around 90% of our cod because of stocks being low.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/19/sustainable-british-cod-on-the-menu-after-stocks-recover

When these stocks rise then I imagine we will catch our own cod.

Just on the fishing issue: http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7383.msg504177#msg504177
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 04:19:13 PM
That makes sense but not with lamb.  Sheep are sheep after all. And I am not a sheep farmer either.

It looks like we import around 90% of our cod because of stocks being low.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/19/sustainable-british-cod-on-the-menu-after-stocks-recover

When these stocks rise then I imagine we will catch our own cod.

No idea when fish stocks will rise unless everyone agrees to respect international laws.

Re lamb: no idea, either. Different races, possibly, branding? No idea. Or perhaps some farmers found a niche in an export market as local supply was uncompetitive?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 05, 2019, 04:28:29 PM
That makes sense but not with lamb.  Sheep are sheep after all. And I am not a sheep farmer either.

It looks like we import around 90% of our cod because of stocks being low.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/19/sustainable-british-cod-on-the-menu-after-stocks-recover

When these stocks rise then I imagine we will catch our own cod.

Tariff rate quotas (TRQs) are mechanisms under which the EU imports agreed tonnages of meat, sugar and grains from around the world with lower-than-usual duties. Brussels, which negotiates a common trade policy on behalf of all 28 states, has 124 TRQs with major agricultural exporters across the globe.

Lamb chops offer a perfect illustration of the EU’s problem after Brexit. Currently, the EU has an agreement to buy 230,000 tonnes of New Zealand’s lamb and goat meat each year, under a quota with reduced tariffs, but Britain traditionally buys 40 percent of this.

After #Brexit the UK will be free to import all it wants from Australia and New Zealand with inevitable price drop.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 04:29:33 PM
The question surely must be WHY are we importing lamb from Ireland and exporting our own?

The best case would be to use our own home grown lambs rather than going to all this extra cost and mileage.

That would seem to make sense, but trade will still continue, deal or no-deal. The UK could be swamped by cheap lamb from dubious origins, if it chooses / or has to accept lower standards in order to negotiate new deals. But how would that benefit local farmers?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 04:32:28 PM
Tariff rate quotas (TRQs) are mechanisms under which the EU imports agreed tonnages of meat, sugar and grains from around the world with lower-than-usual duties. Brussels, which negotiates a common trade policy on behalf of all 28 states, has 124 TRQs with major agricultural exporters across the globe.

Lamb chops offer a perfect illustration of the EU’s problem after Brexit. Currently, the EU has an agreement to buy 230,000 tonnes of New Zealand’s lamb and goat meat each year, under a quota with reduced tariffs, but Britain traditionally buys 40 percent of this.

After #Brexit the UK will be free to import all it wants from Australia and New Zealand with inevitable price drop.

Why would there be an inevitable price drop? And Sunny's question was why import at all.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 05, 2019, 04:36:24 PM
No idea when fish stocks will rise unless everyone agrees to respect international laws.

Re lamb: no idea, either. Different races, possibly, branding? No idea. Or perhaps some farmers found a niche in an export market as local supply was uncompetitive?

Apparently we consume 64% of our home grown lamb and  36% is exported according to this.

https://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/know-your-sheep/sheep-facts/

I am sure I have heard that farmers will still receive the equivalent of the EU subsidies following Brexit.

I am also sure that the subsidies were originally started by the EU to support part time farmers in France and that these same subsidies only appear to serve to increase large land rich farmers profits and also large supermarket's profits at the expense of smaller farmers.

All IMO



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 04:39:21 PM
Apparently we consume 64% of our home grown lamb and  36% is exported according to this.

https://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/know-your-sheep/sheep-facts/

I am sure I have heard that farmers will still receive the equivalent of the EU subsidies following Brexit.

I am also sure that the subsidies were originally started by the EU to support part time farmers in France and that these same subsidies only appear to serve to increase large land rich farmers profits and also large supermarket's profits at the expense of smaller farmers.

All IMO

Not everything one reads on the side of a bus will necessarily be true. :)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 05, 2019, 04:41:32 PM
Tariff rate quotas (TRQs) are mechanisms under which the EU imports agreed tonnages of meat, sugar and grains from around the world with lower-than-usual duties. Brussels, which negotiates a common trade policy on behalf of all 28 states, has 124 TRQs with major agricultural exporters across the globe.

Lamb chops offer a perfect illustration of the EU’s problem after Brexit. Currently, the EU has an agreement to buy 230,000 tonnes of New Zealand’s lamb and goat meat each year, under a quota with reduced tariffs, but Britain traditionally buys 40 percent of this.

After #Brexit the UK will be free to import all it wants from Australia and New Zealand with inevitable price drop.

Thank you for that information.  It explains why I have long been able to buy New Zealand Lamb in France.

France is not Sheep country, so I don't know where the fresh Lamb comes from.  But it's mortal expensive.

Some of my neighbours keep half a dozen Sheep, but that is sold privately within the Community.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 05, 2019, 04:50:04 PM
Not everything one reads on the side of a bus will necessarily be true. :)

OK for at least 10 years.   

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presents-post-brexit-plans-for-agriculture/

I have always wondered why some business get subsidies and others do not. For example how much have we paid (and are to pay) Nissan etc for creating / saving up to 1000 jobs when we are prepared to let HMV, Woolworths, MFI etc all go to the wall costing many times that many of jobs.

I know HMV has now been partially saved but there will still be over 400 jobs lost - that is more than the £80 odd million that UK govt were paying to Nissan would have created.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 05, 2019, 04:56:07 PM
Why would there be an inevitable price drop? And Sunny's question was why import at all.

New Zealand can produce lamb much cheaper than UK farmers can and deliver it into the UK frozen at half the price.  It is a win win for UK consumers but a disaster for Welsh and Scottish sheep farmers.

The government will no doubt bring in measures to strike a happy medium.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 05, 2019, 05:00:18 PM
Apparently we consume 64% of our home grown lamb and  36% is exported according to this.

https://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/know-your-sheep/sheep-facts/

I am sure I have heard that farmers will still receive the equivalent of the EU subsidies following Brexit.

I am also sure that the subsidies were originally started by the EU to support part time farmers in France and that these same subsidies only appear to serve to increase large land rich farmers profits and also large supermarket's profits at the expense of smaller farmers.

All IMO

The UK government has said that farm subsidies will be phased out in the years following BREXIT and replaced by a system which favours those farmers who have highest environmental standards.

'The last vestiges of the EU's agricultural policy will still be in place in the U.K. in 2027 — nearly a decade after the country leaves the bloc — according to the British government's post-Brexit plans.

In the government’s first major piece of legislation mapping out post-EU policy, Environment and Food Secretary Michael Gove is set to present sweeping changes Wednesday to the agriculture sector. Gove's plan will phase out the EU’s sacrosanct direct payment scheme under the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), which props up farmers' wages based on the amount of land they own, and instead link farmers' payments to environmental standards.

The bill will also ensure British farmers no longer have to contend with rules that critics of the CAP say are too stringent and unfit for the modern-day challenges of food production and the environment.

The cut to direct payments will kick in for the first time in 2021 and continue until they are totally eradicated after 2027. For example, annual payments of up to £30,000 will be cut by 5 percent in the first year of the transition, while payments of £150,000 or more will fall by 25 percent.

The proposal is designed to draw the curtains on a situation where the U.K.'s top 10 percent of farm subsidy recipients now rake in almost 50 percent of all EU agricultural payments that go to the country.

“After nearly 50 years of being tied to burdensome and outdated EU rules, we have an opportunity to deliver a Green Brexit," Gove said in a statement. “This Bill will allow us to reward farmers who protect our environment, leaving the countryside in a cleaner, greener and healthier state for future generations."

The bill pledges to guarantee the same amount of money now going toward the farming sector in both 2019 and 2020. Officials from Gove's Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said the amount of money individual farmers receive after 2021 will depend on what efforts they make to improve the environment. The European Commission, meanwhile, has plans to cut CAP funding by 5 percent for the period between 2021 and 2027, though some EU27 countries — led by France — are against the move.

Britain's idea to phase out direct payments, which account for the lion's share of money inside the CAP, is linked to international pressure on farmers to help combat climate change and protect the environment. In Britain, the additional money for the environment will be paid to farmers that agree to do things such as reduce ammonia emissions, plant trees and maintain hedgerows as habitats for wildlife, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said.'


https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presents-post-brexit-plans-for-agriculture/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 05:21:44 PM
Thank you for that information.  It explains why I have long been able to buy New Zealand Lamb in France.

France is not Sheep country, so I don't know where the fresh Lamb comes from.  But it's mortal expensive.

Some of my neighbours keep half a dozen Sheep, but that is sold privately within the Community.

Sheep-based food products are actually quite popular in France, although perhaps not where you live.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 05:25:07 PM
OK for at least 10 years.   

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presents-post-brexit-plans-for-agriculture/

I have always wondered why some business get subsidies and others do not. For example how much have we paid (and are to pay) Nissan etc for creating / saving up to 1000 jobs when we are prepared to let HMV, Woolworths, MFI etc all go to the wall costing many times that many of jobs.

I know HMV has now been partially saved but there will still be over 400 jobs lost - that is more than the £80 odd million that UK govt were paying to Nissan would have created.

Your guess is as good as mine. No one seems to know what they're talking about, nor where the UK is going, nor how it's going to get to this Nirvana that people were promised. Several years ago.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 05:31:55 PM
New Zealand can produce lamb much cheaper than UK farmers can and deliver it into the UK frozen at half the price.  It is a win win for UK consumers but a disaster for Welsh and Scottish sheep farmers.

The government will no doubt bring in measures to strike a happy medium.

Unless an FTA has been signed, the WTO tariff on sheap meat is 45% or thereabouts. I've heard slightly different levels, which may depend on various factors.

I'm wondering if this is the link that I couldn't find earlier.

Tariffs on UK-EU exports under WTO rules

14.Individual tariffs vary between different sectors and products. For non-agricultural goods, the average tariffs are relatively small. However, tariffs on agricultural goods are typically much higher, with the intention of protecting domestic markets.

15.The average EU tariff on dairy products is over 30%, while tariffs could be as high as 87% for frozen beef. Some other examples include a tariff of 46% for cheese or 21% for tomatoes. Some individual products have tariffs over 100%.5

16.Witnesses told us that tariff-free access to the EU was “crucial”.6 Tariffs would have a detrimental impact on those agricultural sectors that were dependent on EU exports for their profitability.

17.We heard particular concerns about the impact of tariffs on the sheep sector. The EU is very important for UK sheep meat exports, with more than 95% of its export volume destined for the EU. The Welsh lamb market is very dependent on the EU market, with 92% of exports (by value) and 85% (by volume) destined for the EU.7

18.Sheep exports, with a tariff of at least 50%, would become uncompetitive on the EU market.8 The Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (AHDB) told us that this would have a “devastating” effect on the sector.9 The Andersons Centre estimated that in Northern Ireland alone, exports to the EU would drop by about 90%.10 It would have serious consequences in Wales, where sheep farming was such a vital part of the Welsh economy, with producer prices estimated to decrease by 30%.11

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmenvfru/348/34805.htm
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 05:37:52 PM
OK for at least 10 years.   

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presents-post-brexit-plans-for-agriculture/

I have always wondered why some business get subsidies and others do not. For example how much have we paid (and are to pay) Nissan etc for creating / saving up to 1000 jobs when we are prepared to let HMV, Woolworths, MFI etc all go to the wall costing many times that many of jobs.

I know HMV has now been partially saved but there will still be over 400 jobs lost - that is more than the £80 odd million that UK govt were paying to Nissan would have created.


Ten years. Some of us might be pushing up daisies by then. Or have had to sell the home to pay wages.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 05, 2019, 05:39:24 PM
The UK government has said that farm subsidies will be phased out in the years following BREXIT and replaced by a system which favours those farmers who have highest environmental standards.

'The last vestiges of the EU's agricultural policy will still be in place in the U.K. in 2027 — nearly a decade after the country leaves the bloc — according to the British government's post-Brexit plans.

In the government’s first major piece of legislation mapping out post-EU policy, Environment and Food Secretary Michael Gove is set to present sweeping changes Wednesday to the agriculture sector. Gove's plan will phase out the EU’s sacrosanct direct payment scheme under the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), which props up farmers' wages based on the amount of land they own, and instead link farmers' payments to environmental standards.

The bill will also ensure British farmers no longer have to contend with rules that critics of the CAP say are too stringent and unfit for the modern-day challenges of food production and the environment.

The cut to direct payments will kick in for the first time in 2021 and continue until they are totally eradicated after 2027. For example, annual payments of up to £30,000 will be cut by 5 percent in the first year of the transition, while payments of £150,000 or more will fall by 25 percent.

The proposal is designed to draw the curtains on a situation where the U.K.'s top 10 percent of farm subsidy recipients now rake in almost 50 percent of all EU agricultural payments that go to the country.

“After nearly 50 years of being tied to burdensome and outdated EU rules, we have an opportunity to deliver a Green Brexit," Gove said in a statement. “This Bill will allow us to reward farmers who protect our environment, leaving the countryside in a cleaner, greener and healthier state for future generations."

The bill pledges to guarantee the same amount of money now going toward the farming sector in both 2019 and 2020. Officials from Gove's Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said the amount of money individual farmers receive after 2021 will depend on what efforts they make to improve the environment. The European Commission, meanwhile, has plans to cut CAP funding by 5 percent for the period between 2021 and 2027, though some EU27 countries — led by France — are against the move.

Britain's idea to phase out direct payments, which account for the lion's share of money inside the CAP, is linked to international pressure on farmers to help combat climate change and protect the environment. In Britain, the additional money for the environment will be paid to farmers that agree to do things such as reduce ammonia emissions, plant trees and maintain hedgerows as habitats for wildlife, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said.'


https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presents-post-brexit-plans-for-agriculture/

Thanks. Where's the money going to come from?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 05, 2019, 06:13:56 PM
They might just be listening to those who shout the loudest. I don't think they realise how they are damaging their own and Parliament's credibility.
I see you think Remain leaning MPs are stupid sheeple. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 06, 2019, 06:39:07 AM
Not the same article, but similar, on sheep meat trade.

https://britishmeatindustry.org/industry/imports-exports/sheepmeat/

UK exports about a third  - 95/6 % the EU, mainly to France (45 - 55%) and some to Germany (10% +) - and imports a third (mainly from NZ (70%), Oz (15%) and the EU (10%). NZ and Oz have a deal with the EU with tariff-free quotas.

For Sunny as we worth both wondering:

Exports largely aim to address imbalances in demand for different cuts and the higher supply of sheep meat at certain times of year. Also, additional markets have had to be found to take items for which there is no or minimal demand on the domestic market, including offal and skins.


The UK exports mainly carcasses, plus offal, 2015 valued at £302m (which was lower than usual due to weak euro at the time). It imports mainly bone-in cuts.

Now to some of my questions on this:

There is a lot of talk around at the moment about Free Trade Agreements (FTAs), as if they are automatically a good thing.  However, there does need to be caution as we do not want the UK flooded with meat from other countries that is either not as well produced as UK meat or simply swamps the market with the concomitant negative impact on British farmers and meat processors.

Now Liam Fox is "mulling" over the idea of slashing UK tariffs - which would lead to the risk of market flooding, negatively affecting domestic producers.

Outside of a deal WTO tariffs would be around 50% depending on the product classification, affecting the competitivity of UK exports (although partially mitigated by the weak pound).

Add to that all the hassle and cost of certification, customs, transport, a potential lack of subsidies (as it's not clear where the gov would get the money from)...

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 08:32:33 AM
I see you think Remain leaning MPs are stupid sheeple.

Looking at all MP's I don't see anything to admire, that's for sure. They voted to hold a referendum and then they voted to trigger Article 50. Since then they have done everything they can to stop the government from carrying out what they themselves made possible. Very clever.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 06, 2019, 08:48:05 AM
Looking at all MP's I don't see anything to admire, that's for sure. They voted to hold a referendum and then they voted to trigger Article 50. Since then they have done everything they can to stop the government from carrying out what they themselves made possible. Very clever.
I see, you’re now include the ERG MPs in that criticism are you?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 06, 2019, 09:55:36 AM
According to David Davis, a Norway-style Brexit wasn't an option, because it "wouldn't respect the result of the referendum".
https://twitter.com/DavidDavisMP/status/1088860158330109952

I thought the ballot was simply to Remain or to Leave?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 10:00:10 AM
I see, you’re now include the ERG MPs in that criticism are you?

I said 'all' and that's what I meant. The whole sorry lot of them have made a laughing stock of themselves, our political process and the UK imo. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 06, 2019, 10:12:55 AM
I said 'all' and that's what I meant. The whole sorry lot of them have made a laughing stock of themselves, our political process and the UK imo.
What should they have done then?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 06, 2019, 10:16:01 AM
According to David Davis, a Norway-style Brexit wasn't an option, because it "wouldn't respect the result of the referendum".
https://twitter.com/DavidDavisMP/status/1088860158330109952

I thought the ballot was simply to Remain or to Leave?
I remember pre referendum having heated debates with Leavers who cited Norway as the way to go, which struck me as odd as a Norway style deal still allows for FOM which was also their main bug bear at the time.  I don’t think any of them were really clear what they wanted apart from to stick two fingers up to the EU and the “metropolitan elites”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 06, 2019, 10:46:59 AM
I remember pre referendum having heated debates with Leavers who cited Norway as the way to go, which struck me as odd as a Norway style deal still allows for FOM which was also their main bug bear at the time.  I don’t think any of them were really clear what they wanted apart from to stick two fingers up to the EU and the “metropolitan elites”.

But that comes back to my point further up somewhere.  "Leave" meant so many different things to different people, including MPs.

You listen to those you respect for one reason or another, assuming that their points and the solutions are viable, then they're having to backtrack, and / or swan off into the sunset when it turns out that they were "fudging" the facts and didn't have any viable solutions in the first place.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 06, 2019, 11:05:08 AM
A slightly disturbing sound-bite from Steve Baker (2013) on RT... that's it folks, pack your bags for Planet Zeta.

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1093080786729877505
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 11:24:11 AM
What should they have done then?

Why did they pass the Referendim Bill?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 06, 2019, 11:32:07 AM
Why did they pass the Referendim Bill?
In order to hold a Referendum.  What should they have done after the result?  It's all well and good and giving a one sentence answer but as we can see now it's a teensy bit more complicate than just "leave the EU".  So what would YOU have done?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 06, 2019, 12:24:51 PM
In order to hold a Referendum.  What should they have done after the result?  It's all well and good and giving a one sentence answer but as we can see now it's a teensy bit more complicate than just "leave the EU".  So what would YOU have done?

If MP's didn't want a referendum they should have opposed it as the SNP dtd.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 06, 2019, 01:07:49 PM
If MP's didn't want a referendum they should have opposed it as the SNP dtd.
They DID want a referendum, that's why they voted for it.  How many MPs have subsequently claimed they did not want a referendum, or do not respect the wishes of the electorate to leave the EU?  All of them???
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 06, 2019, 01:14:05 PM
If even Minford, of all people, pointed this out...


North East business and political leaders have hit out at a Brexit-supporting economist after he admitted leaving the EU would “mostly eliminate manufacturing”.

Professor Patrick Minford has been accused of “sacrificing jobs and livelihoods in the region” after saying an exit from Europe would leave Britain “mainly” with industries such as design and marketing.

During a visit to the region, Seema Malhotra, Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, said it would be a “huge risk” for the North East to vote to leave, while others have branded Professor Minford’s remarks “extraordinary”.

Professor Minford, of Cardiff Business School, has previously advocated “running down” the UK auto industry – which would include plants such as Sunderland’s Nissan.

Giving evidence to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee in 2012, he said: “It is perfectly true that if you remove protection of the sort that has been given particularly to the car industry and other manufacturing industries inside the protective wall, you will have a change in the situation facing that industry, and you are going to have to run it down.

“It will be in your interests to do it, just as in the same way we ran down the coal and steel industries. These things happen as evolution takes place in your economy.”

He went on to echo this statement in The Sun recently, writing: “Over time, if we left the EU, it seems likely that we would mostly eliminate manufacturing, leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech. But this shouldn’t scare us.

“Around half of young adults now go to university, ending up in professions such as finance or law, while the making of things such as car parts or carpentry has hugely shrunk — but there will always be jobs for people without sophisticated skills.

“Of course leaving the EU will be difficult, and something that needs careful negotiation, but we must completely withdraw to gain these benefits.”

The former adviser to Margaret Thatcher has said that if Britain does leave the EU, “transitional arrangements” should be made, lasting around 10 years, to help industries such as car manufacturing “adjust”.

But his opponents from the Remain campaign say Brexit would hit the North East economy hard.

Seema Malhotra, Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, was in the region on Thursday and said: “The North East is the nation’s exporter, the only region to deliver a trade surplus, home to Europe’s most productive car-maker and the newest train-builder.

“It would be a huge risk to leave the world’s largest trading bloc.”

Julie Elliott, MP for Sunderland Central, said: “It is astonishing that Professor Minford advocates Brexit while acknowledging that it ‘would mostly eliminate manufacturing’.

“It is clear that the future of the North East’s manufacturing jobs is dependent on our continued membership of the European Union.”

Anna Turley, MP for Redcar, added: “The North East economy is built on manufacturing and the export of goods to the European market and this sustains hundreds of thousands of skilled, well paid jobs.

“Mr Minford seems content to sacrifice these jobs and livelihoods in our region in return for focusing on service industries, a sector which does not produce the same standard of employment.”

Mike Matthews, European Operations Officer at Stockton’s Nifco, said: “I do agree with Patrick Minford on one point – that Brexit would mean the UK’s manufacturing industry would mostly disappear.

“Typically, the pattern of global manufacturers, especially automotive, is make the car where the car is sold, establish the supply chain where the end product is sold – and being in the EU supports this.

“Who would invest in a market of 60million potential customers with potential trade barriers when there’s a market of 500million in the EU with no barriers to face?

“And then how would that gap left by manufacturing be filled? What would replace it as an engine for growth?”

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/mps-react-after-vote-leave-11269819
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 08, 2019, 10:23:43 AM
I wonder if this was behind the recent headlines that the UK would initially just wave freight through? They still haven't been able to recruit the 1000 or so extra border staff needed as no one knows where they'll be needed.

https://twitter.com/paulj71/status/1093574340191404034

I'm no longer wondering why Iannucci hasn't done a sequel...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 08, 2019, 12:50:38 PM
Anyone fancy a stint at the UK emergency command and control centre?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/08/brexit-no-deal-crisis-command-centre-starts-hiring-civilians?CMP=share_btn_tw
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 08, 2019, 01:07:55 PM

Channel 4 News
‏Verified account @Channel4News
53m53 minutes ago

The ferry company with no ferries might be stranded in a port that isn’t a port.

#49DaysToBrexit
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1093845157403873280
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 08, 2019, 03:47:46 PM
What the US wants the UK to abolish for a trade deal.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/what-us-lobbyists-want-donald-trump-to-get-from-the-uk-in-a-post-brexit-trade-deal_uk_5c5b26c6e4b00187b5579f64?utm_hp_ref=uk-homepage&ncid=fcbklnkukhpmg00000001

The Irish border issue isn't just about the GFA...

I wonder how many people agree to reducing standards?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 08, 2019, 07:14:26 PM
The EU has a free trade agreement with Japan, who obviously doesn't adhere to all rules imposed by the EU

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/

So why not with the UK who are already compliant at this time?

I admit it took 5 years to bang the Japan EU one through but I can't see it taking any time for a UK EU one if the will is strong.

Unless the EU unelected top brasses priority is to punish the UK as well as mocking our political classes on twitter and elsewhere.

ALL IMO
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 08, 2019, 07:35:21 PM
The EU has a free trade agreement with Japan, who obviously doesn't adhere to all rules imposed by the EU

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/

So why not with the UK who are already compliant at this time?

I admit it took 5 years to bang the Japan EU one through but I can't see it taking any time for a UK EU one if the will is strong.

Unless the EU unelected top brasses priority is to punish the UK as well as mocking our political classes on twitter and elsewhere.

ALL IMO

Which rules doesn't Japan abide by?

Who do you mean by EU unelected top brasses?

NB: According some the WTO negotiatiors familiar with it, it actually took longer than 5 years as informal talks lasted for ages. Not sure I could find a link at the moment.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 08, 2019, 07:40:00 PM

Nigel Farage
‏Verified account @Nigel_Farage

The Electoral Commission have officially recognised The Brexit Party.

It will fight the European elections if Article 50 is extended.

I sincerely hope that this prospect is recognised by both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party as a threat.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1093923638225584129

Perhaps someone could remind me what his Brexit plan actually is, aside from Leave means Leave...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2019, 04:16:44 PM
Update to the £13.8m contract awarded to a shipping company that has no ferries, has no experience of ferry-shipping and was likely not to have a port to land in, no working phone, and that had terms and conditions pasted from a pizza delivery service.

It's been cancelled.

Seaborne Freight was one of three firms awarded contracts totalling £108m last week to lay on additional crossings to ease the pressure on Dover when Britain pulls out of the EU. The move came despite it never having run a Channel service.

Transport secretary Chris Grayling insisted that the company had been properly vetted before being chosen, after concerns were raised over its ability to fulfil the contract.

But eyebrows were raised further today amid claims the terms and conditions on its website appeared to have been lifted wholesale from that of a takeaway delivery service, with references to meal orders and hoax deliveries.

The 'placing an order' section of its terms and conditions stated that "it is the responsibility of the customer to ensure delivery address details are correct and detailed enough for the delivery driver to locate the address in adequate time.

"You must always provide a valid contact number and email when ordering online. Please provide additional delivery instructions in the relevant section on our checkout page. In the event that your address cannot be found, undelivered orders will be chargeable."

And further probing finds a number of other oddities on the firm's website, including:

- Its log-in portal redirects directly to Google's home page;

- Neither of the listed phone numbers appear to be manned, with both stating 'there is no one available to take your call' and offering no chance to leave a message;

- Other features, such as language settings, are only for show and cannot be clicked on; and

- Despite Grayling saying they are on track to run services from April, the ferry-free firm's recruitment page is currently empty.

The terms and conditions appear to have been changed today but can still be seen via online archiving services.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/no-deal-brexit-ferry-firm-copied-terms-and-conditions-from-a-takeaway-website-1-5838647
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2019, 04:20:31 PM
Update on the promises of roll-over trade deals:

Tony Tassell
‏Verified account @TonyTassell

- @FT scoop: UK-Japan trade talks stall, raising risks from no-deal Brexit - rpt by @RobinBHarding @Urbandirt. Signs here of a hardening position by Japan and how hard it will be for UK to strike trade deals   https://www.ft.com/content/5ce60af2-2b90-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7 …
4:04 AM - 8 Feb 2019

https://twitter.com/TonyTassell/status/1093873255910440960
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2019, 04:36:01 PM
Just had a closer look at the recruitment drive posted further up.

Without having seen the notes, so just going off the Guardian's notes, and other articles reporting on the situation:

Job description

Role

Your role will be to:

- brief emergency centre officers, liaison emergency centre officers and situation emergency centre officers;

- provide riefing notes for ministers “at pace” and checking the “battle rhythm” for emerging urgent policy changes;

- If necessary, help with plans to deal with “putrefying stockpiles” of uncollected waste and of issues in relation to livestock caught in potential gridlock in Kent.



Qualities and skills required.

To fulfill such a role, you will need to:

- be able to “see the emergency trends with little or no information and act appropriately at pace”;

“ have a horizon scanner – someone who is looking up and out into the working environment to spot early indications of approaching issues or emergencies”;

- be unflappable, to help brief ministers and the Cabinet Office on any unfolding emergencies in a no-deal scenario;

- have the “ability to make sound, logical judgments based on possibly incomplete or imperfect information”.

Location
- To be determined.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 09, 2019, 06:11:06 PM
Update to the £13.8m contract awarded to a shipping company that has no ferries, has no experience of ferry-shipping and was likely not to have a port to land in, no working phone, and that had terms and conditions pasted from a pizza delivery service.

It's been cancelled.

Seaborne Freight was one of three firms awarded contracts totalling £108m last week to lay on additional crossings to ease the pressure on Dover when Britain pulls out of the EU. The move came despite it never having run a Channel service.

Transport secretary Chris Grayling insisted that the company had been properly vetted before being chosen, after concerns were raised over its ability to fulfil the contract.

But eyebrows were raised further today amid claims the terms and conditions on its website appeared to have been lifted wholesale from that of a takeaway delivery service, with references to meal orders and hoax deliveries.

The 'placing an order' section of its terms and conditions stated that "it is the responsibility of the customer to ensure delivery address details are correct and detailed enough for the delivery driver to locate the address in adequate time.

"You must always provide a valid contact number and email when ordering online. Please provide additional delivery instructions in the relevant section on our checkout page. In the event that your address cannot be found, undelivered orders will be chargeable."

And further probing finds a number of other oddities on the firm's website, including:

- Its log-in portal redirects directly to Google's home page;

- Neither of the listed phone numbers appear to be manned, with both stating 'there is no one available to take your call' and offering no chance to leave a message;

- Other features, such as language settings, are only for show and cannot be clicked on; and

- Despite Grayling saying they are on track to run services from April, the ferry-free firm's recruitment page is currently empty.

The terms and conditions appear to have been changed today but can still be seen via online archiving services.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/no-deal-brexit-ferry-firm-copied-terms-and-conditions-from-a-takeaway-website-1-5838647
Fills you with confidence doesn’t it?  Never mind it will all be fine by 29th March...  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 09, 2019, 06:38:17 PM
for those concerned taht the economy might suffer and we may have civil unrest...take alook at Germany and France
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2019, 08:40:07 PM
Fills you with confidence doesn’t it?  Never mind it will all be fine by 29th March...  @)(++(*

It's funny if people aren't directly affected. But what about people depending on a supply of eg medication who are no doubt very worried right now. Or small businesses who need that order to get through and survive as a family and possibly pay wages, plus social contributions and tax?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2019, 08:46:30 PM
for those concerned taht the economy might suffer and we may have civil unrest...take alook at Germany and France

The gilets jaunes thing started with a legitimate reason to protest, IMO. But ex-hooligans are probably in need of an excuse to release extra testosterone and are probably 2 to an € to hire.

Whatever is going on, they aren't faced with the same count-down to D-Day that the UK is.

The "movement" will probably communicate to the UK, but who is behind it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 09, 2019, 10:52:52 PM
It's funny if people aren't directly affected. But what about people depending on a supply of eg medication who are no doubt very worried right now. Or small businesses who need that order to get through and survive as a family and possibly pay wages, plus social contributions and tax?

There is always uncertainty, all the time, it's part of living.  "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

People try to safeguard themselves and avoid risk and discomfort, but life has a habit of slapping you down. Your job disappears, your business fails, illnesses occur.

They say we have less than 20 years to change our ways or risk losing our planet. That trumps anything Brexit can do imo.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 09, 2019, 11:10:50 PM
There is always uncertainty, all the time, it's part of living.  "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

People try to safeguard themselves and avoid risk and discomfort, but life has a habit of slapping you down. Your job disappears, your business fails, illnesses occur.

They say we have less than 20 years to change our ways or risk losing our planet. That trumps anything Brexit can do imo.

Yes, especially when we're young, footloose and fancy-free. We've all been there.

But these are supposedly seasoned adults who represent the population and who should have got beyond the stage of playing at Peter Pan for their own gratification, and leaving everyone else in limbo. Or worse. IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 09, 2019, 11:50:14 PM
There is always uncertainty, all the time, it's part of living.  "'In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes."

People try to safeguard themselves and avoid risk and discomfort, but life has a habit of slapping you down. Your job disappears, your business fails, illnesses occur.

They say we have less than 20 years to change our ways or risk losing our planet. That trumps anything Brexit can do imo.
We won’t lose the planet, the planet will lose us, and be better for it in the long run.  That said in the short term  why deliberately pursue an agenda that is far more likely to create  discomfort and deprivation for the population than by not pursuing it?   How do you think your grandchildren’s lives are going to improve as a result of Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 08:15:18 AM
Yes, especially when we're young, footloose and fancy-free. We've all been there.

But these are supposedly seasoned adults who represent the population and who should have got beyond the stage of playing at Peter Pan for their own gratification, and leaving everyone else in limbo. Or worse. IMO.

I don't know how age comes into it. No matter how old you are you can't protect yourself from everything because you can't control everything that impacts on your life.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 10, 2019, 08:40:27 AM
We won’t lose the planet, the planet will lose us, and be better for it in the long run.  That said in the short term  why deliberately pursue an agenda that is far more likely to create  discomfort and deprivation for the population than by not pursuing it?   How do you think your grandchildren’s lives are going to improve as a result of Brexit?

Staying in the EU won't stop people syffering  discomfort and deprivation.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 11:27:00 AM
I don't know how age comes into it. No matter how old you are you can't protect yourself from everything because you can't control everything that impacts on your life.

How true.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 11:48:43 AM
I don't know how age comes into it. No matter how old you are you can't protect yourself from everything because you can't control everything that impacts on your life.

I misread your post, sorry - we were thinking of different things. You were talking about ordinary people, and I was thinking of politicians in positions of responsibility who are paid to do a job. Awarding a contract to a ferry company that didn't have ferries isn't one of the "sh*t happens" type of situations that couldn't be envisaged...

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 11:54:13 AM
Staying in the EU won't stop people syffering  discomfort and deprivation.

No, but economically, there is no Brexit solution that won't make the UK poorer for some time to come. The options are about how badly the economy will be hit.

I agree that the economy isn't everything, and what is going on, IMO, goes far beyond that: it's polarising people in ways that I find disturbing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 11:59:34 AM
Staying in the EU won't stop people syffering  discomfort and deprivation.
You are a master (mistress) of stating the obvious.  I did not saythat it would however it is my contention that discomfort and deprivation will increase as a result.  I am not alone in thinking this either, even some prominent Brexiteers acknowledges there will be hardships as a result of leaving the EU but they don’t care as we will. have “taken back control” which will I’m sure gladden the heart of all those who may lose their livlihoods as a result.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 10, 2019, 12:16:18 PM
I misread your post, sorry - we were thinking of different things. You were talking about ordinary people, and I was thinking of politicians in positions of responsibility who are paid to do a job. Awarding a contract to a ferry company that didn't have ferries isn't one of the "sh*t happens" type of situations that couldn't be envisaged...

Grayling is really an idiot and should never have been given a ministerial position IMO.

I also believe that giving a remainer the job of organising brexit was just as big a mistake.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 12:33:34 PM
Grayling is really an idiot and should never have been given a ministerial position IMO.

I also believe that giving a remainer the job of organising brexit was just as big a mistake.
I totally agree.  They should have given the job to Nigel Farage and not taken a no for an answer until he sorted it all out.  Then he could either have claimed to be the utter saviour of the UK, or end up its ultimate destroyer.  Of course he would have been 100% confident that he would have been the former and it would have been very interesting to have given him the opportunity to put his money where his mouth is. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 12:48:12 PM
Grayling is really an idiot and should never have been given a ministerial position IMO.

I also believe that giving a remainer the job of organising brexit was just as big a mistake.

Grayling is going to be in the naughty corner.
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1094562232623656963

What I find sad at the moment is threads on Twitter of people panicking because medication is out of stock. I hope they find some, but the Grayling fiasco is just going to make people more anxious.

Re May: Don't know. Yes, she was a Remainer, but was determined to end FoM, which I suspect few Remainers want. For good or for bad (and I think she's made some bad choices, but no one really knows the extent of the mess behind the scenes), I think she's been run off her feet and feels she has to stay firm while placating everyone, which isn't possible.

I did try to think of a Leaver politician who might have been competent to deal with the mess, but I just can't think of one, unless one comes out of the woodwork.

Would it have been better to have a radical Leaver or a moderate one in charge?

The ERG brigade keep repeating "solutions" that simply don't exist. The "hard" Brexiteers in charge of the Alternative Arrangements brainwave never even went to Ireland, apparently. They called it off at the last minute.

How would they competently attempt to guide the country through this mess?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 12:50:31 PM
I totally agree.  They should have given the job to Nigel Farage and not taken a no for an answer until he sorted it all out.  Then he could either have claimed to be the utter saviour of the UK, or end up its ultimate destroyer.  Of course he would have been 100% confident that he would have been the former and it would have been very interesting to have given him the opportunity to put his money where his mouth is.

Since when has Farage ever actually done anything other than gathering soundbites? Whetherr on RT or elsewhere?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 12:53:37 PM
Since when has Farage ever actually done anything other than gathering soundbites? Whetherr on RT or elsewhere?
It's time he owned this, or was given the opportunity to,  it's his baby after all.  What is his plan?  I think we should demand to know.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 01:01:00 PM
It's time he owned this, or was given the opportunity to,  it's his baby after all.  What is his plan?  I think we should demand to know.

But that would mean all UK citizens (plus the many Europeans also caught up in this) being left to dry while he just swans off elsewhere.

Once the referendum vote came in, he announced that his work was done. There's another clip of him thanking Bannon and Breitbart.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 01:19:41 PM
If ever, say one or two foreign powers, hypothetically of course, were seeking strategic advantages and were influencing UK politics for their own ends, with a few backhanders here or there... could they be considered to be doing well so far, or not?

And no, I'm not a conspiracy theorist in any shape or form. Just observing what's going on.

Is anyone unaware of Carole Cadwalladr's investigative reports in the Guardian, or the Cambridge Analytica exposé by Channel 4?

IMO, it makes the old scandal of MPs fudging their expenses seem like a 4-year-old refusing to admit having nicked biscuits from the tin. Naughty and tax payers had to pick up the tab, but hardly a major threat.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 01:30:40 PM
Blimey.... Not often lost for words.


Rural Conservative Movement
‏ @RuralConserv
22h22 hours ago

When you think of the standard of living and sort of society his forebears had to cope with, you'd think @DavidLammy would thank his lucky stars for his enormous good fortune, instead of becoming such a peevish, covetous, chippy individual. The voters of Tottenham deserve better. https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/1094185474665693186 …


Account @RuralConserv
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 01:33:00 PM
But that would mean all UK citizens (plus the many Europeans also caught up in this) being left to dry while he just swans off elsewhere.

Once the referendum vote came in, he announced that his work was done. There's another clip of him thanking Bannon and Breitbart.
He would have had to stay put, no swanning off, or if he refused to take responsibility and did swan off then that would tell us everything we would need need to know about his sincerity and his belief in the Brexit dream. After he swanned off the job should then have gone to JRM, then Boris, in that order.  One of those Brexit Brainboxes would surely have been able to devise the most cunning and advantageous withdrawal deals, no? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 01:38:58 PM

Looked up Carte de Sejour.  I don't need one.  It's only proof that you can support yourself, and I've been doing that for twenty five years.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 01:43:17 PM
I'm presuming that readers on here realise that the US Conservative movement doesn't equate to the UK Conservative party.

In the US, the Conservatives are to the right of the Republicans.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 01:44:58 PM
Looked up Carte de Sejour.  I don't need one.  It's only proof that you can support yourself, and I've been doing that for twenty five years.

That's what some of the Windrush lot thought.

It's more than that. Income is just one aspect.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 01:49:02 PM
Looked up Carte de Sejour.  I don't need one.  It's only proof that you can support yourself, and I've been doing that for twenty five years.

If you know someone in social services who speaks English, get hold of them as soon as poss, to help you with it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 01:58:02 PM
Question: who exactly are the illegal immigrants flooding the UK, aside from those on a couple of dinghies and the odd stowaway on lorries.

https://twitter.com/DMReporter/status/1094594523618045952
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 02:01:41 PM
If you know someone in social services who speaks English, get hold of them as soon as poss, to help you with it.

I don't need help, and my French is far from useless, actually.

No one is going to even try to deport an eighty year old woman who for twenty five years, non stop, has filled in a French Tax Return, got a French Driving Licence, and never broken any Laws.  And owns her own house on which she has always paid Taxes.

The Banque Alimentaire is not a Benefit, although it wouldn't matter if it was.  And I could manage without it anyway.

This is just adding to the scaremongering.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 02:11:03 PM
I don't need help, and my French is far from useless, actually.

No one is going to even try to deport an eighty year old woman who for twenty five years, non stop, has filled in a French Tax Return, got a French Driving Licence, and never broken any Laws.  And owns her own house on which she has always paid Taxes.

The Banque Alimentaire is not a Benefit, although it wouldn't matter if it was.  And I could manage without it anyway.

This is just adding to the scaremongering.

OK.

I doubt that the French would hassle you, either.

However, if there is a no-deal, are you sure you'll get your UK pension? There are helplines that I could find for you. The other thing is what kind of medical insurance you have.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 02:40:25 PM
No deal Brexit means no free healthcare on the continent for British nationals living in Europe.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
OK.

I doubt that the French would hassle you, either.

However, if there is a no-deal, are you sure you'll get your UK pension? There are helplines that I could find for you. The other thing is what kind of medical insurance you have.

Are you saying that UK might refuse to pay my British State Pension when they already pay it to people who live outside The EU?

I have had full Medical Insurance for nearly twenty years now, and until recently paid this myself.  This last two years The French State has stepped in and now pays two thirds of it, due to my appalling British State Pension.  But, again, I would manage, as I did before.
This is backed in some part by The UK and I expect that to continue as EU Nationals living and paying Taxes? in Britain get a Free Health Service..
I have never claimed against my Health Insurance as I am disgustingly healthy.  And All Life Threatening Illnesses are treated for Free anyway.  Perhaps you didn't know this.

Or are you saying that it's all going to fall apart, and that all Expats everywhere are going to be denied help, or worse, kicked out?

I have been thinking lately that Britain would be better off staying in The EU.  But then Britain is so often its own worst enemy.  The lengths to which Britain goes to obey even the most ridiculous of Rules from Brussels sometimes leaves me speachless.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 03:13:25 PM
No deal Brexit means no free healthcare on the continent for British nationals living in Europe.

There is no Free Health Care in France.  Unless you are poverty stricken, or have a Life Threatening Illness.  Apart from that you pay according to your means.  And worth every penny, if you ask me.

So how's about No Free Heath Care for EU Nationals living in Britain?  Or will that not apply to Illegal Immigrants?

This is getting ridiculous now.

My youngest son needed a referral for a Cardiogram, related to him joining The French Fire Service.  He walked into the Doctor's Surgery unannounced, and got his Referral immediately, for an appointment in nine days time, including a weekend.  Nothing life threatening about it.

He has lived here for three years now, is Registered for work, pays Tax on his earnings, and does not expect to be asked to leave.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 03:33:27 PM
There is no Free Health Care in France.  Unless you are poverty stricken, or have a Life Threatening Illness.  Apart from that you pay according to your means.  And worth every penny, if you ask me.

So how's about No Free Heath Care for EU Nationals living in Britain?  Or will that not apply to Illegal Immigrants?

This is getting ridiculous now.

My youngest son needed a referral for a Cardiogram, related to him joining The French Fire Service.  He walked into the Doctor's Surgery unannounced, and got his Referral immediately, for an appointment in nine days time, including a weekend.  Nothing life threatening about it.

He has lived here for three years now, is Registered for work, pays Tax on his earnings, and does not expect to be asked to leave.
I assume a no deal Brexit will also mean no free health care for EU Nationals in this country too unless they apply for "settled status" first.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 03:36:38 PM
I assume a no deal Brexit will also mean no free health care for EU Nationals in this country too unless they apply for "settled status" first.

Britain can't take their National Insurance and then refuse them Health Care.  Besides, there is a reciprocal arrangement.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 03:39:16 PM
Britain can't take their National Insurance and then refuse them Health Care.  Besides, there is a reciprocal arrangement.
It's all up for grabs in the event of a no deal Brexit.  Worth a read...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46841041
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 03:46:20 PM
Don't shoot the messenger...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/29/british-pensioners-in-eu-will-lose-nhs-covered-health-care-under-no-deal-brexit
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 03:54:01 PM
Don't shoot the messenger...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/29/british-pensioners-in-eu-will-lose-nhs-covered-health-care-under-no-deal-brexit

A lot of If, Buts, and Maybes.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 04:45:33 PM
A lot of If, Buts, and Maybes.
Not here:

"British nationals who have retired to EU countries including Spain and France will no longer have their healthcare covered by the NHS in the event of no Brexit deal, the government has said".

Forewarned is forearmed in my opinion.

From the Government website

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-nationals-living-in-the-eueea-and-switzerland-healthcare?utm_source=6e9b01be-cdca-4571-a6af-08983303b21e&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 04:53:50 PM
I've done a little bit more googling and this seems a bit more reassuring to people in Eleanor's position (assuming eleanor falls into this category "Workers, self-employed and those who’ve retired after working in France") , in France at least, in the event of a no deal scenario:

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190130/brexit-what-will-happen-to-your-healthcare-in-france-deal-or-no-deal

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 05:19:00 PM
Also this. A new French "ordonnance" in the event of a no-deal.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20190208/no-deal-brexit-what-the-new-french-law-means-for-britons-in-france-so-far
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 05:30:07 PM

I'll tell you what.  I'll let you know what happens.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 10, 2019, 05:56:48 PM
The fact that lest than 50 days to go and still no one really knows wtf is going to happen is quite unforgivable IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 06:41:51 PM
This might be useful:
https://www.remaininfrance.org
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 06:51:54 PM
I'll tell you what.  I'll let you know what happens.

You've lived there for ages, and if it's just some paperwork, there's no harm in getting advice on what to do. Better than finding yourself in a mess later. No one deserves that hassle.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 07:21:36 PM
Britain can't take their National Insurance and then refuse them Health Care.  Besides, there is a reciprocal arrangement.

That's an EU/EFTA arrangement, which won't apply any more.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 07:25:54 PM
The fact that lest than 50 days to go and still no one really knows wtf is going to happen is quite unforgivable IMO.

Totally agree. All because of a political spat, with a dodgy campaign largely based on disinformation, so many normal people are tearing their hair out at the imminent consequences.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 10, 2019, 07:30:20 PM
Totally agree. All because of a political spat, with a dodgy campaign largely based on disinformation, so many normal people are tearing their hair out at the imminent consequences.

Exactly.  Which is why I refuse to do so.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 07:43:00 PM
Exactly.  Which is why I refuse to do so.

LOL A real trooper. ;) But there's no harm in checking into what you'd need to do. Bear in mind, this is only in the case of a no-deal, but time is running out. I'm with Vertigo on this, forewarned is forearmed.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 10, 2019, 10:29:41 PM
Another Facebook fake news alert re the supposed nefarious implications of the Lisbon Treaty on the UK.

Sigh.

Debunked:

https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1087258784001654784

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2019, 08:59:40 AM
Exactly.  Which is why I refuse to do so.

From a pragmatic perspective, the UK and the EU will have to work out at least some temporary emergency arrangements. The country would sink even further if there were to be a tsunami of UK emigrants having to come back to the UK with no place to go, some possibly with illnesses requiring check-ups and medication.

But then I thought the Transport Secretary was on top of things... probably not all his fault if he's swamped, and there's not enough staff.

Wouldn't hurt to contact a UK consulate if you can.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2019, 09:18:49 AM
A perfect example of misleading disinformation in the Sun.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8397909/eating-dogs-illegal-brexit-bill/

At first glance, I could interpret that to mean nasty EU migrants do eat dogs and cats and that Brexit is going to outlaw thhe (posssibly widespread, but hidden dining practice).

What's the difference between the UK banning eating puppies and kittens and the scenario that 77m Turks were going to suddenly claim asylum under your bed?


An article that offers a bit more information on this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46553064

In reality, it appears to be a legal loophole that needs to be closed.

Nuance. But one that can influence people to vote based on emotional reactions.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 11, 2019, 09:40:17 AM
From a pragmatic perspective, the UK and the EU will have to work out at least some temporary emergency arrangements. The country would sink even further if there were to be a tsunami of UK emigrants having to come back to the UK with no place to go, some possibly with illnesses requiring check-ups and medication.

But then I thought the Transport Secretary was on top of things... probably not all his fault if he's swamped, and there's not enough staff.

Wouldn't hurt to contact a UK consulate if you can.

Ever since I arrived here someone has been jumping up and down saying that you've got to do this or you've got to do that.  None of it has ever been true.

I have to go to the Caisse de Maladie before the end of March to renew my Health Insurance Assistance as you have to do this once a year, senile or not.  My son always comes with me.  They are ever very helpful and speak excellent English.

Should I come up against a problem I will go into my. "Can't speak French and I am not the whole shilling Mode", which I am quite good at.  And someone will help me.

One of the things I so love about this place is that they have enormous respect and kindness for the aged,  It has always been about The Peasants here, and probably already have an alternative in place should they need it.

I was offered a supplementary French upgrade on my British Pension of 200 Euros a month, but they can recover at least some of this from one's Estate when one is dead.  So I can't have that as I am not leaving that sort of debt to my children.
And it's swings and roundabouts for me anyway, as I would lose other things, like The Food Bank if I had accepted.

The Food Bank is not a Benefit.  It's a Charitable hand out, although no one is ever made to feel like this, and saves me at least 150 Euros a month.

So for the moment I am taking my chances.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on February 11, 2019, 01:14:13 PM
Ever since I arrived here someone has been jumping up and down saying that you've got to do this or you've got to do that.  None of it has ever been true.

I have to go to the Caisse de Maladie before the end of March to renew my Health Insurance Assistance as you have to do this once a year, senile or not.  My son always comes with me.  They are ever very helpful and speak excellent English.

Should I come up against a problem I will go into my. "Can't speak French and I am not the whole shilling Mode", which I am quite good at.  And someone will help me.

One of the things I so love about this place is that they have enormous respect and kindness for the aged,  It has always been about The Peasants here, and probably already have an alternative in place should they need it.

I was offered a supplementary French upgrade on my British Pension of 200 Euros a month, but they can recover at least some of this from one's Estate when one is dead.  So I can't have that as I am not leaving that sort of debt to my children.
And it's swings and roundabouts for me anyway, as I would lose other things, like The Food Bank if I had accepted.

The Food Bank is not a Benefit.  It's a Charitable hand out, although no one is ever made to feel like this, and saves me at least 150 Euros a month.

So for the moment I am taking my chances.

I don't see a problem Eleanor, France and Spain need British people to buy their products and spend money in their shops so I believe reciprocation will be the key word after Brexit. In all reality France will probably want Frexit if the right continues to gain strength in France and who knows which cards will fall after that. Could be the end of the EU but the creation of a new common market.

On thing the people of France and Britain agree over though is that non EU immigration must end.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 11, 2019, 03:34:20 PM
I don't see a problem Eleanor, France and Spain need British people to buy their products and spend money in their shops so I believe reciprocation will be the key word after Brexit. In all reality France will probably want Frexit if the right continues to gain strength in France and who knows which cards will fall after that. Could be the end of the EU but the creation of a new common market.

On thing the people of France and Britain agree over though is that non EU immigration must end.

It is almost impossible to stop non EU immigrants entering France because the French borders are too wide and are uncontrollable.  The influx will always head for Britain because France isn't such an easy touch.

I wouldn't bank on the far right in France.  Everyone I know thinks they are a waste of space.  In fact, I suspect that France lives in a bubble of its own ideas, and merely pays lip service to The EU, when it isn't getting all Gillet Jeune about something that only matters to France.

Certainly, France and Spain need British Holiday Makers.

Somedebody hasn't thought it through before mouthing off with their silly scare tactics.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 11, 2019, 03:49:12 PM
A perfect example of misleading disinformation in the Sun.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8397909/eating-dogs-illegal-brexit-bill/

At first glance, I could interpret that to mean nasty EU migrants do eat dogs and cats and that Brexit is going to outlaw thhe (posssibly widespread, but hidden dining practice).

What's the difference between the UK banning eating puppies and kittens and the scenario that 77m Turks were going to suddenly claim asylum under your bed?


An article that offers a bit more information on this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46553064

In reality, it appears to be a legal loophole that needs to be closed.

Nuance. But one that can influence people to vote based on emotional reactions.

Doesn't this disinformation work both ways Carana. It would appear that the majority of the UK media and establishment are pushing the "crashing out" theme.   

When the referendum vote was mooted we heard of crashes in the pound's value if we had a vote to leave the EU. Nothing of the sort happened at all.

We also hear the Governor of the Bank of England making up fairy stories regarding house prices "crashing" down by 30% with no evidence of where he has achieved this amazing figure. Demand and supply rules will always apply in this case. Demand for houses is higher than supply unless the banks, building societies refuse to lend.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Sunny on February 11, 2019, 03:56:57 PM
Here are a few more "lies" by the remain camp.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1068271/brexit-news-eu-uk-referendum-2016-leave-remain-campaign-spt
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2019, 04:23:20 PM
Doesn't this disinformation work both ways Carana. It would appear that the majority of the UK media and establishment are pushing the "crashing out" theme.   

When the referendum vote was mooted we heard of crashes in the pound's value if we had a vote to leave the EU. Nothing of the sort happened at all.

We also hear the Governor of the Bank of England making up fairy stories regarding house prices "crashing" down by 30% with no evidence of where he has achieved this amazing figure. Demand and supply rules will always apply in this case. Demand for houses is higher than supply unless the banks, building societies refuse to lend.

I don't think he was making up fairy stories (he's not alone making these decisions and there's apparently a lot of hard number-crunching that goes into it). The BoE's job is to be prepared for worst-case scenarios. If they don't materialise, fine, but if they do, the country has to be prepared.

Even so, I'm not sure how you'd describe the £/€.

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=5Y

The property market hasn't crashed, but I haven't kept up with where that's going.

Coverage in the media is mixed.

There's quite a bit of controversy over the BBC's coverage at the moment, particularly Question Time, from what I'm reading.

The bottom line is still that the clock is ticking fast, and no one seems to have a clue what's going to happen. Personally, I find that worrying.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2019, 04:26:15 PM
Here are a few more "lies" by the remain camp.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1068271/brexit-news-eu-uk-referendum-2016-leave-remain-campaign-spt

I'll have a look at that later. Quite a bit of that seems rather misleading.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 11, 2019, 05:58:04 PM
Doesn't this disinformation work both ways Carana. It would appear that the majority of the UK media and establishment are pushing the "crashing out" theme.   

When the referendum vote was mooted we heard of crashes in the pound's value if we had a vote to leave the EU. Nothing of the sort happened at all.

We also hear the Governor of the Bank of England making up fairy stories regarding house prices "crashing" down by 30% with no evidence of where he has achieved this amazing figure. Demand and supply rules will always apply in this case. Demand for houses is higher than supply unless the banks, building societies refuse to lend.
I think you’ll find something of the sort DID happen vis-a-vis the pound as this five year graph illustrates

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/currency
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2019, 06:29:02 PM
I think you’ll find something of the sort DID happen vis-a-vis the pound as this five year graph illustrates

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/currency

And vis-à-vis the € (posted a link further up).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 11, 2019, 06:42:51 PM
I think you’ll find something of the sort DID happen vis-a-vis the pound as this five year graph illustrates

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/currency

A weak pound is a bonanza for exports
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 11, 2019, 06:43:08 PM
Did people vote to leave the Single Market, the Customs Union, or both?

Here’s a bunch of tw@ts who used to think Norway and the Single Market was the way to go but have since the referendum have seemingly changed their minds
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 11, 2019, 06:44:00 PM
A weak pound is a bonanza for exports
So have we had a bonanza two years of trade then?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 11, 2019, 07:01:05 PM
If a hard Brexit really is going to be such a bonanza boon for British businesses, why are so many business leaders and CEOs against a no deal scenario?  Are they all stupid?  Do they not want to make oodles of profit and squillions of pounds from all the opportunites that a weak pound and WTO rules will afford them?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 11, 2019, 08:00:01 PM
Government to miss Brexit trade deal target
https://news.sky.com/story/government-to-miss-brexit-trade-deal-target-11634661

But, but, they were all supposed have been negotiated over a cup of tea and ready for midnight...

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 11, 2019, 11:00:33 PM
If a hard Brexit really is going to be such a bonanza boon for British businesses, why are so many business leaders and CEOs against a no deal scenario?  Are they all stupid?  Do they not want to make oodles of profit and squillions of pounds from all the opportunites that a weak pound and WTO rules will afford them?

The key word is exporters.  The importers are doing all the squealing! 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 11, 2019, 11:21:26 PM
The key word is exporters.  The importers are doing all the squealing!
Really?

The UK food industry has threatened to stop co-operating with government policy consultations, saying it is busy trying to stave off the "catastrophic impact" of a no-deal Brexit.
The warning came in a letter to Environment Secretary Michael Gove from more than 30 business leaders.
They said it looked "ever more the likeliest outcome" that the UK would leave the EU without an agreement.
The government said leaving the EU with a deal remained its "top priority".
"We are meeting weekly with representatives from our food and drink industry to help prepare for all scenarios," said a spokesperson for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.
But the food industry said the current situation was a "moment of potential crisis" for their industry.
Those signing the letter included the heads of the Food and Drink Federation, the National Farmers' Union and UK Hospitality.
Members of the various trade bodies include Mondelez subsidiary Cadbury; KP Snacks, which makes Hula Hoops; and Butterkist popcorn, as well as consumer goods giant Nestle.
"Neither we nor our members have the physical resources nor organisational bandwidth to engage with and properly respond to non-Brexit related policy consultations or initiatives at this time," they wrote.
"Government has recruited many extra staff; we cannot."
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 11, 2019, 11:29:22 PM
Read the letter from 1,280 business leaders in full below, all backing Remain:

Sir, We own and run more than 1,200 businesses, from micro companies to the FTSE 100, employing more than 1.75 million people. We know our firms are stronger in Europe.

Our reasons are straightforward: businesses and their employees benefit massively from being able to trade inside the world’s largest single market without barriers. As business people we always look to the future – and a future inside the EU is where we see more opportunities for investment, growth and new jobs. We know that Britain leaving the EU would mean having to re-establish terms of trade from scratch with our home market of 500 million consumers. That wouldn’t just hurt exporters but the hundreds of thousands of small and medium firms who do business with them.

signed by:

Paul Bassett, Principal, A P Bassett Solicitors; Kerry Glazer, Chief Executive Officer, AAR; Matt Regan, UK General Manager, AbbVie; Mark Glatman, Chief Executive, Abstract Securities; Dr John Burt, Chief Executive Officer, Abzena; Dr Julian Gilbert, Chief Executive Officer, Acacia Pharma; Jonathan Biggs, Partner, Accel; Sonali De Rycker, Partner, Accel; Philippe Botteri, Partner, Accel; Harry Nelis, Partner, Accel; Fred Destin, Partner, Accel; Matt McLaren, Executive Director, Access Ambition Recruitment Services; Rolf Fyne, Founding Partner, Accordo Partners Ltd; Matt Southall, Managing Director, Acorn Recruitment Ltd; Chris Brady, CEO, Acro Aircraft Seating Ltd; Robin Bhattercherjee, General Manager, Actelion Pharmaceuticals UK; Lawrence Turner, Founder and MD, Active Online Marketing Group; David Barry, Managing Director, Acunim Software Ltd; James Murphy, Founder and CEO, Adam and Eve DDB; Mark Evans, Director, Adaptix; John Joyce*, Managing Partner, Addleshaw Goddard LLP; Charles Penney*, Senior Partner, Addleshaw Goddard LLP; Eric Van Der Klej, Co-Founder and CEO, Adeptra, Level39, Tech City UK, and Co-Founder Entiq; Kasper Rorsted, Designated CEO, Adidas; Andy Wood, CEO, Adnams plc; Adrian Marsh, Director, Adrian Marsh Ltd; Samantha Hale, Managing Director and Founder, Advanced Performance; Dr Sanjeev Kanoria, Chairman, Advinia Health Care Limited; Doug Monro, Co-Founder and CEO, Adzuna; Mike Adams, Managing Director, Agenda IT; Peter Hancock, President and Chief Executive Officer, AIG; Claire Burrows, Founder, Air and Grace; Tony Fernandes CBE, GCEO, AirAsia and Founder, Tune Group; Paul

and hundreds more that there was not space enough to post, full list here http://www.europeanscom.eu/companies-that-support-brexit-and-the-companies-that-support-the-eu/

So what are they not seeing that Tim Witherspoon and Dyson are seeing?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 12, 2019, 06:46:05 PM
A lot of sense in this article IMO

A no-deal Brexit won’t result in a siege. The EU will be more clinical than that
Tom Kibasi
Talk of rotting food at Calais is hysterical: instead, no deal would see the EU calmly dismantle Britain’s industries over time
Thu 7 Feb 2019 10.41 GMT Last modified on Thu 7 Feb 2019 15.26 GMT

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 Lorries queue at the port of Dover.
 ‘There won’t be trucks filled with rotting food in Calais or shortages of medicines in pharmacies.’ Lorries queue at the port of Dover. Photograph: Daniel Leal-Olivas/AFP/Getty Images
One of the most striking features of the ongoing Brexit shambles is the consistent failure of Britain’s political class to correctly assess the consequences of their decisions or the likely response from EU member states or institutions. So it is with the prospect of a no-deal Brexit.

With every passing week, new heights of hysteria are reached about the impact of crashing out of the bloc. Politicians and the media have embraced the aesthetic of the disaster movie, outlining all the most vivid ways in which our economy and society will fall to pieces after exit day in an imagined dystopia.

The government amplifies rather than dampens the threat in the hope that fear will bring MPs from both main parties into acquiescing to the prime minister’s Brexit deal. And the EU, keen to assist the government in getting the deal through parliament, does little to lower the temperature. But almost all of the fear-mongering is wrong.

 The hysteria needs to stop and the sobering reality of the scale of the stakes for the future must be better understood
In truth, the short-term impact of a no-deal Brexit would be not nearly as bad as predicted, but the long-term impact will be much worse than feared. Why? Because the British political class still fails to understand how the EU will respond to the crisis.

In a no-deal Brexit, the EU will not place the UK under some medieval siege; there won’t be trucks filled with rotting food in Calais or shortages of medicines in pharmacies. Planes will continue to fly, though British travellers would face longer queues at borders (yet still enjoy visa-free travel). A thin agreement – covering areas from aviation to contract continuity – would be quickly concluded.

Most households would feel the impact not through shortages but through rising prices, the result of a rapid weakening in sterling driving up the cost of imports. Living standards that have barely improved for more than a decade would get noticeably worse. But 3,500 troops are not going to be deployed to the streets.

Instead, the EU’s response to a no deal will be strategic: opening up advantage, sector by sector, calmly and patiently dismantling the UK’s leading industries over the course of a decade. They will eat the elephant one bite at a time. The problem with abandoning the rules of the international order is that you no longer enjoy their protection.

A no-deal Brexit would hand the EU enormous power: it would decide how and when to introduce new frictions between the UK and the single market, giving sufficient time for firms like Airbus, Nissan or AstraZeneca to relocate production. As recent decisions have demonstrated, even seemingly fixed capital investment is more mobile than many Brexiters imagine.

The EU would set out a timeline over which it would introduce compliance and rules of origin checks on the UK’s most competitive exporting sectors. It is not hard to imagine checks on automotive parts from 2021, pharmaceuticals from 2022 and aerospace from 2023, alongside constantly shifting sands of equivalence for financial services. This would allow firms an orderly departure from the UK to the single market. It will be a steady drift away from the UK, not an avalanche. Moreover, the absence of any agreement would mean lasting uncertainty that would deter future investment. The UK is particularly exposed in this regard: our serious lack of competitiveness is demonstrated by persistently large trade deficits. This means the UK is heavily reliant on foreign investment – the “kindness of strangers” – which would likely collapse. It is not hard to imagine a future government going cap in hand to the IMF for a bailout.

The Brexit fantasists’ riposte is that the Europeans have as much to lose since the UK is an important export market and we run a large trade deficit with the single market. But one of the legacies of Thatcher’s deindustrialisation is that the UK lacks the industrial base to switch from foreign to domestic production. It simply no longer exists, thanks to the 1980s shock therapy of the very same disaster capitalists that now champion no-deal.


Queen to be evacuated if Brexit turns ugly – reports
 Read more
Those same Brexiters who have marched from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm still bizarrely believe that the UK could pocket the £39bn divorce bill while pursuing trade deals around the world. Yet the EU would, calmly and rationally, place tariffs on UK trade until it had collected what it is owed. And the damage to trade with the single market could not be replaced by new trade deals – in addition to the EU27, the UK has the benefits of trade deals with 40 other countries through the EU, all of which would evaporate overnight in no deal. That requires 67 deals to be signed just to stand still.

Yet it is for these reasons that no deal remains the least likely outcome, its probability in the single digits. What began as a political hoax is now affecting real investment decisions in the economy, as Nissan’s recent decision has shown. The hysteria needs to stop and the sobering reality of the scale of the stakes for the UK’s future prosperity must be better understood. It is a damning indictment and a severe dereliction of duty that such a calamity as a no-deal Brexit is a possibility, no matter how unlikely. It’s time to rule out no deal, once and for all.

• Tom Kibasi is director of the Institute for Public Policy Research, and founder and chair of the IPPR Commission on Economic Justice
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 12, 2019, 07:47:03 PM
Read the letter from 1,280 business leaders in full below, all backing Remain:

Sir, We own and run more than 1,200 businesses, from micro companies to the FTSE 100, employing more than 1.75 million people. We know our firms are stronger in Europe.

Our reasons are straightforward: businesses and their employees benefit massively from being able to trade inside the world’s largest single market without barriers. As business people we always look to the future – and a future inside the EU is where we see more opportunities for investment, growth and new jobs. We know that Britain leaving the EU would mean having to re-establish terms of trade from scratch with our home market of 500 million consumers. That wouldn’t just hurt exporters but the hundreds of thousands of small and medium firms who do business with them.

signed by:

Paul Bassett, Principal, A P Bassett Solicitors; Kerry Glazer, Chief Executive Officer, AAR; Matt Regan, UK General Manager, AbbVie; Mark Glatman, Chief Executive, Abstract Securities; Dr John Burt, Chief Executive Officer, Abzena; Dr Julian Gilbert, Chief Executive Officer, Acacia Pharma; Jonathan Biggs, Partner, Accel; Sonali De Rycker, Partner, Accel; Philippe Botteri, Partner, Accel; Harry Nelis, Partner, Accel; Fred Destin, Partner, Accel; Matt McLaren, Executive Director, Access Ambition Recruitment Services; Rolf Fyne, Founding Partner, Accordo Partners Ltd; Matt Southall, Managing Director, Acorn Recruitment Ltd; Chris Brady, CEO, Acro Aircraft Seating Ltd; Robin Bhattercherjee, General Manager, Actelion Pharmaceuticals UK; Lawrence Turner, Founder and MD, Active Online Marketing Group; David Barry, Managing Director, Acunim Software Ltd; James Murphy, Founder and CEO, Adam and Eve DDB; Mark Evans, Director, Adaptix; John Joyce*, Managing Partner, Addleshaw Goddard LLP; Charles Penney*, Senior Partner, Addleshaw Goddard LLP; Eric Van Der Klej, Co-Founder and CEO, Adeptra, Level39, Tech City UK, and Co-Founder Entiq; Kasper Rorsted, Designated CEO, Adidas; Andy Wood, CEO, Adnams plc; Adrian Marsh, Director, Adrian Marsh Ltd; Samantha Hale, Managing Director and Founder, Advanced Performance; Dr Sanjeev Kanoria, Chairman, Advinia Health Care Limited; Doug Monro, Co-Founder and CEO, Adzuna; Mike Adams, Managing Director, Agenda IT; Peter Hancock, President and Chief Executive Officer, AIG; Claire Burrows, Founder, Air and Grace; Tony Fernandes CBE, GCEO, AirAsia and Founder, Tune Group; Paul

and hundreds more that there was not space enough to post, full list here http://www.europeanscom.eu/companies-that-support-brexit-and-the-companies-that-support-the-eu/

So what are they not seeing that Tim Witherspoon and Dyson are seeing?

Self interest basically, for every boss wanting to remain there are more wanting to leave.  You forget that the EU would be much much much worse off than the UK in a crash-out situation without reciprocal agreements.  Basically it ain't gonna happen VS.  Deals and Agreements will come quick and fast after we formally leave the EU with Germany, France and Belgium leading the way. The German car industry would be decimated without a deal such are the number of cars BMW, VW, Mercedes, Skoda, Opel and Audi sell to us. The same for the French with Peugeot-Citreon and Renault cars, vans and trucks pouring into the UK every day.

The UK is paving the way for France, Italy and Spain to get out too and that is why the EU big wigs are resisting so much.  The EU has little to do with trade any more, it is all about power. A European Superstate, a European Army is what it is really all about and now blighty has gone and spoilt it all.   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 12, 2019, 08:04:02 PM
Self interest basically, for every boss wanting to remain there are more wanting to leave.  You forget that the EU would be much much much worse off than the UK in a crash-out situation without reciprocal agreements.  Basically it ain't gonna happen VS.  Deals and Agreements will come quick and fast after we formally leave the EU with Germany, France and Belgium leading the way. The German car industry would be decimated without a deal such are the number of cars BMW, VW, Mercedes, Skoda, Opel and Audi sell to us. The same for the French with Peugeot-Citreon and Renault cars, vans and trucks pouring into the UK every day.

The UK is paving the way for France, Italy and Spain to get out too and that is why the EU big wigs are resisting so much.
if it’s self interest then presumably you think that these 1200 businesses will be harmed by Brexit, hence why the CEOs are against it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 12, 2019, 08:06:00 PM
if it’s self interest then presumably you think that these 1200 businesses will be harmed by Brexit, hence why the CEOs are against it?

No doubt they realise their bottom line will be hit but that happens in life and in business, there will always be winners and losers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 12, 2019, 08:16:49 PM
No doubt they realise their bottom line will be hit but that happens in life and in business, there will always be winners and losers.
These CEOs and business owners employ 1.75 million people between them.  If only 10% of these businesses fail as a result of Brexit in the next five years then thats 175,000 people out of a job.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 12, 2019, 09:47:16 PM
These CEOs and business owners employ 1.75 million people between them.  If only 10% of these businesses fail as a result of Brexit in the next five years then thats 175,000 people out of a job.

On the other hand, a great opportunity for exports and by inference, jobs.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 12, 2019, 09:50:47 PM
On the other hand, a great opportunity for exports and by inference, jobs.
What are we going to be exporting in far greater volume than before?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 12, 2019, 10:00:22 PM
What are we going to be exporting in far greater volume than before?

British wine to Chile?

Fish to the Faroe Islands?

Watches to Switzerland?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 13, 2019, 01:23:27 AM
What are we going to be exporting in far greater volume than before?

Well, let's see...    *%87

Machinery including computers
Vehicles
Mineral fuels including oil
Gems, precious metals
Pharmaceuticals
Electrical machinery, equipment
Aircraft, spacecraft
Optical, technical, medical apparatus
Plastics, plastic articles
Organic chemicals
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 07:23:15 AM
Well, let's see...    *%87

Machinery including computers
Vehicles
Mineral fuels including oil
Gems, precious metals
Pharmaceuticals
Electrical machinery, equipment
Aircraft, spacecraft
Optical, technical, medical apparatus
Plastics, plastic articles
Organic chemicals
LOL.  OK.  You forgot coal and textiles. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 08:23:00 AM
The key word is exporters.  The importers are doing all the squealing!

Many exporters need imported components (from cars to confectionary). Bureaucratic hassle costs time and money.

Until such time as FTAs can be agreed, many of which will be on worse terms than those that the UK already benefits from, tariffs will apply on exports.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 08:25:36 AM
Ford told UK PM May it is preparing alternative production sites - The Times

(Reuters) - Ford Motor Co told British Prime Minister Theresa May that it is stepping up preparations to move production out of Britain, The Times reported on Tuesday.

(...)


Ford, which operates two engine plants in Britain, last month said that it faces a bill of up to $1 billion (775 million pounds) if Britain leaves the Europe Union without a deal.

Car makers and other manufacturers have warned about the toll a no-deal Brexit could impose, including higher tariffs, disruption to supply chains and threats to jobs. Britain is scheduled to leave the European Union on March 29.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-ford-motor/ford-told-uk-pm-may-it-is-preparing-alternative-production-sites-the-times-idUKKCN1Q12SK?utm_source=applenews
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 13, 2019, 09:00:55 AM
The Conservative Party has always been the party which business people prefer. If we believe what we are hearing they are very unhaopy with the way Brexit is going, despite the fact that it's the Conservatives in charge of it. Is this public disquiet aimed at the Conservative Party therefore? Perhaps it's aimed at the other MP's, the ones who are causing uncertainty by refusing to cooperate with the Government.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 09:29:22 AM
The Conservative Party has always been the party which business people prefer. If we believe what we are hearing they are very unhaopy with the way Brexit is going, despite the fact that it's the Conservatives in charge of it. Is this public disquiet aimed at the Conservative Party therefore? Perhaps it's aimed at the other MP's, the ones who are causing uncertainty by refusing to cooperate with the Government.
I think many if not most business people are very unhappy with the idea of Brexit full stop.  They realise how potentially harmful it will be to their businesses, to their employees and therefore to the country and the union generally. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 09:38:32 AM
Many exporters need imported components (from cars to confectionary). Bureaucratic hassle costs time and money.

Until such time as FTAs can be agreed, many of which will be on worse terms than those that the UK already benefits from, tariffs will apply on exports.
And around 45% of our exports are to the EU which will be affected by tariffs that weren’t applied prior to March 29 2019.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 09:41:42 AM
• Net migration could rise from 273,000 in the year to June to almost 400,000 under planned post-Brexit immigration policy, according to a report published today by Migration Watch UK. The figure would be four times the government target of a reduction to under 100,000. Almost four fifths of the migrants would come from outside the EU, with a doubling in the number of skilled workers after scrapping the cap and relaxing rules for employing them.

LOL.

They’ve changed their tune

“In January 2016, the group published a report claiming that the UK leaving the European Union could result in a reduction of annual net migration from 180,000 to around 65,000.[54] MigrationWatch stated that they would not take a position on the UK's EU membership referendum held in June 2016.”

LOLOLOL
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 10:07:12 AM
And around 45% of our exports are to the EU which will be affected by tariffs that weren’t applied prior to March 29 2019.

Plus all the countries with which the UK (via the EU) already has arrangements. I have the list somewhere - will post if I can find the document. It's in the region of 40+.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 10:21:03 AM
Just as an example (as scatterbrain here can't find my list for the moment), a list of EU-US agreements already in place. Anyone who thinks renegotiating these as a single country over a cup of tea in 10 minutes might need to take a long nap. And multiply that by how many countries in the WTO? 164 or 163.

http://ec.europa.eu/world/agreements/searchByCountryAndContinent.do?countryId=6063&countryName=United%20States%20of%20America&countryFlag=treaties
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 01:56:17 PM

Brexit: UK has rolled over just £16bn out of £117bn trade deals

Liam Fox has agreed deals with only seven of 69 countries covered by EU arrangements
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/13/brexit-uk-trade-deals-eu

"Arrangements" with 7/69.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 02:17:04 PM
Brexit: UK has rolled over just £16bn out of £117bn trade deals

Liam Fox has agreed deals with only seven of 69 countries covered by EU arrangements
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/13/brexit-uk-trade-deals-eu

"Arrangements" with 7/69.
Have you seen the list of countries we now have trade deals with?  It's hilarious.
Switzerland is an important trading partner which we have secured a deal with but they account for 1.9% of our exports. 
The rest are

Chile
Mauritius
Madagascar
Zimbabwe
Faroe Islands
Seychelles.

LOL. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 03:07:15 PM
Have you seen the list of countries we now have trade deals with?  It's hilarious.
Switzerland is an important trading partner which we have secured a deal with but they account for 1.9% of our exports. 
The rest are

Chile
Mauritius
Madagascar
Zimbabwe
Faroe Islands
Seychelles.

LOL.


Haven't  had time to check. The Swiss one has apparently been updated. I haven't read the summary of that one, but it seems to have been updated with a view to a no-deal (it was originally with a deal in mind).

Another one appears to have been done with a regional agreement of former UK colonies in Africa. That might be what is referred to as the Zimbabwe one. Haven't had time to check that either. No idea what that covers or not.


Sunny uplands, here we come...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 13, 2019, 03:38:37 PM
I think many if not most business people are very unhappy with the idea of Brexit full stop.  They realise how potentially harmful it will be to their businesses, to their employees and therefore to the country and the union generally.

The fatal flaw in that argument is making the big assumption that all business people have trade dealings with the EU.  In fact very few businesses have any dealings directly with the EU, estimated recently at only 6%, and so are unaffected by international movements.  You will find that it is tho inse regions who border the EU or are closely linked to the EU via short sea crossings are shouting loudest because they fear BREXIT the most.

Only 44% of all UK exports is to the EU but 66% of imports come from the EU.  So it doesn't take a genius to work out whose economy would be damaged most if a deal of some sort isnt agreed.  All this scaremongering is pathetic, most people will never notice any difference in their lives after BREXIT.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 03:52:03 PM
The fatal flaw in that argument is making the big assumption that all business people have trade dealings with the EU.  In fact very few businesses have any dealings directly with the EU, estimated recently at only 6%, and so are unaffected by international movements.  You will find that it is those regions who border the EU or are closely linked to the EU via short sea crossings are shouting loudest because they fear BREXIT the most.

Only 44% of all UK exports are to the EU but 66% of imports come from the EU.
There is no fatal flaw to my argument.  You don't have to have direct dealings with the EU to be impacted by trade deals or the lack of them, and the overall effect of a no-deal Brexit on the economy, investment, jobs, the strength of the pound, inflation, standard of living etc etc etc. 
Incidentally, Dover was vehemently Leave so I don't understand your last point at all.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 03:56:56 PM
https://www.burges-salmon.com/brexit/key-impacts-upon-uk-based-business-in-no-deal-brexit/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 13, 2019, 03:57:04 PM
Brexit: UK has rolled over just £16bn out of £117bn trade deals

Liam Fox has agreed deals with only seven of 69 countries covered by EU arrangements
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/13/brexit-uk-trade-deals-eu

"Arrangements" with 7/69.

Yes, those seven make up some 90% of the affected trade. The remaining countries account for a miniscule amount of trade.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 03:59:06 PM
Yes, those seven make up some 90% of the affected trade. The remaining countries account for a miniscule amount of trade.
WHAT??
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 13, 2019, 04:01:11 PM
There is no fatal flaw to my argument.  You don't have to have direct dealings with the EU to be impacted by trade deals or the lack of them, and the overall effect of a no-deal Brexit on the economy, investment, jobs, the strength of the pound, inflation, standard of living etc etc etc. 
Incidentally, Dover was vehemently Leave so I don't understand your last point at all.

Most business in the UK is internal and will be impacted very little by leaving the EU. Lord Bamford's JCB machinery is exported all over the world and he is wholly behind BREXIT.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 13, 2019, 04:02:03 PM
WHAT??

You must learn to look behind the figures VS.  Liam Fox has stated that only a handful of trade deals need to be done with our biggest trading partners and that the remainder are less important as they account for a small percentage of our overall overseas trade.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 04:12:16 PM
You must learn to look behind the figures VS.
Since when has £16 billion been 90% of £117 billion? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 04:13:30 PM
Most business in the UK is internal and will be impacted very little by leaving the EU. Lord Bamford's JCB machinery is exported all over the world and he is wholly behind BREXIT.
May I refer you to my post above #1061
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 13, 2019, 04:14:32 PM
Since when has £16 billion been 90% of £117 billion?

That figure merely represents those deals completed.  The UK signed a trade deal with Switzerland just two days ago worth £32 billion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 04:21:30 PM
Darren Grimes is now apparently in a bit of a financial mess due to the BeLieve campaign for which he'd been wheeled out as an offshoot. And the big boys of the other Brexit campaigns appear to have left him home to dry. Either his plea is true, and his mum will have to sell their council home to pay for his youthful ambitions, or it's an appeal for more campaign funding.

Hard to tell....

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 04:24:43 PM
That figure merely represents those deals completed.  The UK signed a trade deal with Switzerland just two days ago worth £32 billion.

Erm. Yes, but it doesn't appear to cover very much and it's been updated since then.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 04:29:11 PM
Angelo, feel free to post updates on other FTAs or indirectly-related agreements, if you find time.

NB: With links, when possible.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 04:33:22 PM
Since when has £16 billion been 90% of £117 billion?

What's the time? Looking at my clock...

Since Liam Fox last said so, presumably.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 04:37:20 PM
You must learn to look behind the figures VS.  Liam Fox has stated that only a handful of trade deals need to be done with our biggest trading partners and that the remainder are less important as they account for a small percentage of our overall overseas trade.

Which are the biggest trading partners in question with which FTA deals have now been concluded?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 05:15:51 PM
Angelo, there's going to have to be some sort of compromise along the line.

Would you feel ok with one in which the UK:

- Retains the right to deport people who can't justify that they can support themselves after an initial 3-months' stay?

- Retains border control - no Schengen, but retain fast international cooperation in identifying any potential dodgy people ASAP?

- Retains the rights of UK citizens to move within Europe, whether to retire, to study, work or live with their loved one?

- Ensures that an international court can defend the UK in the event of an international dispute?

- Has relatively hassle-free agreements with 60+ countries?

- Has rules in place for UK businesses that enable them to trade hassle-free?

- Is able to maintain health and safety standards, and environmental ones, in which the UK played a role in shaping?

- Would be able to continue  to have access to major databases related to security and policing?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 05:19:21 PM
Yes, those seven make up some 90% of the affected trade. The remaining countries account for a miniscule amount of trade.
Switzerland
Chile
Mauritius
Madagascar
Zimbabwe
Faroe Islands
Seychelles.
make up 90% of what exactly?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 05:25:02 PM
Switzerland
Chile
Mauritius
Madagascar
Zimbabwe
Faroe Islands
Seychelles.
make up 90% of what exactly?

Places with attractive scenery?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 05:51:43 PM
Places with attractive scenery?
Ha, could be.  I’ve re-ordered the list according where I would most like to visit

1 Mauritius
2 Seychelles
3 Madagascar
4 Switzerland
5 Faroe Islands
6 Chile
7 Zimbabwe
.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 06:10:17 PM


The Bank of England governor says that post-Brexit trade deals could lead to “a golden age of trade”.
Conclusion

Mr Carney’s speech yesterday did not use these words. It did discuss both opportunities and risks from Brexit, but to describe his comments as suggesting a “golden age of trade” is misleading.

    “And will [the Prime Minister] also rule out a future customs union arrangement which would prevent us doing those global trade deals, which the Bank of England governor says is a potential golden age of trade?”

    Henry Smith MP, 13 February 2019

The only problem with that sunny upland view is that Carney said nothing of the sort.
https://fullfact.org/europe/mark-carney-brexit-golden-age/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 07:59:43 PM
“Ford has become the latest carmaker to sound the alarm over Brexit, saying that it is stepping up preparations to move production out of Britain.

The business, which has 13,000 staff in the UK, told the prime minister on a private call with business leaders that it was preparing alternative sites abroad”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 13, 2019, 08:44:57 PM

“Bank of America, one of the biggest banks in the world, has spent $400 million shifting people and operations out of the UK in anticipation of Brexit and will not be bringing them back under any circumstances, its vice-chairwoman has said.

Anne Finucane told a conference in Dublin that the bank would never make London its European headquarters again. “Dublin is our headquarters for our European bank now, full stop. There isn’t a return. That bridge had been pulled up,” she said”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 10:56:19 PM
Not quite sure how negotiations with the WTO are going... I'm hearing varying stories, and trying to work out what's true.

Most of the negative news was back in October (which I missed). Still problems, apparently.


https://news.sky.com/story/wto-sees-devilishly-complicated-brexit-challenge-11635617
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 13, 2019, 11:03:11 PM
“Bank of America, one of the biggest banks in the world, has spent $400 million shifting people and operations out of the UK in anticipation of Brexit and will not be bringing them back under any circumstances, its vice-chairwoman has said.

Anne Finucane told a conference in Dublin that the bank would never make London its European headquarters again. “Dublin is our headquarters for our European bank now, full stop. There isn’t a return. That bridge had been pulled up,” she said”

Even if Article 50 were revoked tomorrow, it would take a hell of a lot to coax agencies and big businesses back again. Once trust is lost, it's hard to get back.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 14, 2019, 12:30:30 AM
Even if Article 50 were revoked tomorrow, it would take a hell of a lot to coax agencies and big businesses back again. Once trust is lost, it's hard to get back.

Good riddance I say.  A new era beckons and those who believe in the British economy will endure and prosper.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 14, 2019, 12:35:03 AM
“Bank of America, one of the biggest banks in the world, has spent $400 million shifting people and operations out of the UK in anticipation of Brexit and will not be bringing them back under any circumstances, its vice-chairwoman has said.

Anne Finucane told a conference in Dublin that the bank would never make London its European headquarters again. “Dublin is our headquarters for our European bank now, full stop. There isn’t a return. That bridge had been pulled up,” she said”

It doesn't take much to work out where Finucane's allegiance lies.  The Republic of Ireland will be on a sticky wicket after a no deal BREXIT as they will be paying into the EU instead of receiving handouts.  They will also be at the mercy of the UK since they rely on us to buy their farm products.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 03:33:21 AM
The state of play re UK/EU roll over deals.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8414522/liam-fox-6-of-40-trade-deals/

Not totally up to date: the EU deal with Singapore has just gone through, apparently.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 03:36:17 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzRxsHBXcAIcMkn.png)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 14, 2019, 07:13:29 AM
It doesn't take much to work out where Finucane's allegiance lies.  The Republic of Ireland will be on a sticky wicket after a no deal BREXIT as they will be paying into the EU instead of receiving handouts.  They will also be at the mercy of the UK since they rely on us to buy their farm products.
What has any of that got to do with the Bank of America desetrting Britain?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 14, 2019, 07:16:07 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzRxsHBXcAIcMkn.png)
The personification of Gammon.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 14, 2019, 08:23:49 AM
Belgium’s government is in turmoil — yet again. France’s peacock president is having his feathers plucked by a bolshy populace. The German chancellor is soon to depart this political life. Italy and Brussels may have papered over their rancorous dispute over Rome’s spending proposals, but neither is likely to play nice for long. Spain has a hideous unemployment problem, and poor Greece, the crucible of Western democracy, has lost control of its own affairs and is turning into a third world country.

Poland and Hungary, of course, are pursuing non-liberal policies that have earned them the contempt of the European institutions. And all this before we even start contemplating Commission President Jean Claude Juncker’s hiccups.

The UK is forging ahead with a new beginning, many in Europe will in the end be jealous of our new found independence.  We will have total control over our borders, who we do trade with and on what terms.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 14, 2019, 08:28:29 AM
Belgium’s government is in turmoil — yet again. France’s peacock president is having his feathers plucked by a bolshy populace. The German chancellor is soon to depart this political life. Italy and Brussels may have papered over their rancorous dispute over Rome’s spending proposals, but neither is likely to play nice for long. Spain has a hideous unemployment problem, and poor Greece, the crucible of Western democracy, has lost control of its own affairs and is turning into a third world country.

Poland and Hungary, of course, are pursuing non-liberal policies that have earned them the contempt of the European institutions. And all this before we even start contemplating Commission President Jean Claude Juncker’s hiccups.

The UK is forging ahead with a new beginning, many in Europe will in the end be jealous of our new found independence.  We will have total control over our borders, who we do trade with and on what terms.
Don’t you think you should have put this in quotes and given a credit to Quentin Letts artilce in the Sun, rsther than present them as your own words?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8065493/brexit-countdown-eu-economic-success-quentin-letts/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 09:49:11 AM
"We will have total control over our borders, who we do trade with and on what terms."

- The UK already has control over its borders.

- The UK can already trade with any country it wants to, including free trade with 69 countries.

- Only 10% of  roll-over agreements have been negotiated so far (and Switzerland has updated theirs, amongst other things to limit the number of new work permits for UK citizens to 3,500, in the event of a no-deal).

- Negotiating new free trade agreements from scratch could take between 6-10 years. They take ages not just to negotiate, but the ratification takes years in itself. All WTO members have to agree (that's 164 countries).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 10:04:45 AM
A few informative documents / threads


No-deal Brexit and WTO: Article 24 explained
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit/no-deal-brexit-and-wto-article-24-explained/

Extending Article 50: could Brexit be delayed?
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-8496

A Twitter account by a non-WTO expert (AFAIK), but who appears to have researched his points and is followed by several trade negotiators who would have corrected him if he'd misunderstood anything.
https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1086003435772751872



NB:

And another one on how long FTAs actually take:
https://www.open-britain.co.uk/new_research_trade_deals_with_five_key_countries_could_take_26_years_to_negotiate

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 10:31:38 AM
An issue that I hadn't fully appreciated is the Rules of Origin (ROO) conundrum.


Faisal Islam
‏Verified account @faisalislam

Trade Department assess Turkey trade rollover deal “not possible” by 30/3 according to Sun document

Not just that. engines account for biggest single bit of a cars total value. Will UK made engine count as EU “content” post 30/3? Eg Korea cd slap tariff on EU car with Uk engine
1:21 PM - 13 Feb 2019

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1095825320022806528
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 02:44:48 PM
USDA says filler once known as 'pink slime' can be labeled ground beef
Robin Shreeves
Robin Shreeves
February 11, 2019, 10:44 a.m.

https://www.mnn.com/food/healthy-eating/blogs/usda-says-pink-slime-can-be-labeled-ground-beef
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 14, 2019, 05:47:49 PM
From a post on Facebook.  Any pro-Brexit rebuttals welcome
LONG INFURIATED POST ALERT:

Right, let's tackle this WTO thing, because it's pissing me off.

1/ If we end up solely on WTO rules, then we need a hard border in Ireland. That risks peace, stability, and the Union. Plus we don't have any time to build the infrastructure required. Like, nowhere NEAR enough time. And there aren't any "alternative arrangements", I promise. They don't exist. There isn't a single border in the world that has any. And that means a hard border.

2/ If we rely on WTO rules for trade, then we need to apply tariffs to imports. And expect that other countries will apply tariffs to our exports. That makes things more expensive for us to buy, and makes our businesses less able to compete. Not really sure how this is a win.

3/ If we decide we're not going to apply tariffs to imports at all, then we lose all leverage for negotiating future trade deals. What on earth would we offer them?? We've already given them free access to our market.

4/ If we decide we're not going to apply tariffs to imports at all, then we destroy our own producers - why would you carry on trying to run a farm produce business when the market is flooded with much cheaper products from abroad?

5/ If we decide to only reduce tariffs on products from the EU, then the Most Favoured Nation clause (WTO rules) kicks in - this says that you can't offer more favourable terms to one bloc, and not everyone else. So - no tariffs from the EU, means no tariffs from anyone. See points 3 and 4.

6/ If you were looking forward to getting your bendy bananas back, then tough shit; this rule didn't come from the EU (no matter what Boris told you), it came from the WTO - specifically, the Codex Alimentarius. So, no change there. Except now bananas are extortionately expensive, because, well, tariffs.

7/ If you're relying on the idea that there's an obscure WTO rule that says we can just carry on trading with the EU on the same terms we have now for 10 years, then tough shit again - this isn't correct. The "rule" is Article XXIV of the GATT, and is specifically an allowance for deviating from the MFN (see 5) because you and another bloc are working towards implementing your bilateral trade deal. It requires an end point - a fully thrashed out trade agreement. It is specifically NOT a clause that comes into play when you decide to drop out of a trading arrangement.

8/ If one of the benefits of "going WTO" is that we can make our own rules, then I can understand that. We could decide, unilaterally, that it's too expensive for us to produce electronics with an earthing wire, so we're not going to insist on that anymore. Cool. But then we can't sell our products to our closest trading neighbours. We want to sell stuff to the EU, we need to follow their rules. Except now we don't get a say in what they are.

9/ Having a "world trade deal" sounds quite attractive - quite romantic. The idea of Britain going out on her own, bravely forging links with faraway lands - it's quite appealing. Except trade doesn't work like that. There's a gravity towards your closest neighbours - proximity is important. I'm more likely to sell something to France than I am to Australia - I can get it there quicker, for example, and for a much lower cost. There is no nation on earth - none - that have prioritised trading with distant countries instead of those geographically closest. We're about to be the first - which will involve a pretty brutal lesson in the realities of logistics.

10/ If we go WTO, then we need to check goods coming into our internal market - including those from the EU. We don't have the infrastructure to do this. Nor do we have the staff. Nor the time. Plus - and this is deeply ironic - once we leave the EU, the pool of people from which we can recruit to do this essential work becomes much, much smaller. Do we have enough vets to perform the necessary checks on livestock coming into the country, for example? No. Where do we normally recruit them from? The EU. Ah, shit.

11/ A No Deal exit was never on the cards during the campaign. It is simply all that is left, once logic and reality strip away all the lies that we were told about Brexit. No, German car manufacturers haven't been knocking on Merkel's  door demanding a trade deal with the UK. No, the EU doesn't need us more than we need them. No, we don't hold all the cards. None of that was true. It was never going to be true. But rather than facing up to reality, the rhetoric has just become more and more extreme. If you're dealt a bad hand in a game of poker - if the river turns against you - you don't HAVE to go all in. There are other options. You don't need to claim that was what you intended to do all along.

All of this - all of the above. That's what Donald Tusk was talking about. People who either ignored the above, or didn't even bother to find out about it - but sold us Brexit anyway. The people who - even now - print banners that say "LET'S GO WTO!" as if it's the easiest thing in the world, and without consequence.

Forty-nine days to go.

Just forty-nine.

Sigh.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 06:45:39 PM
Seems correct, AFAIK. Except that the UK is now down to less than 49 days.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 06:53:35 PM
There's a rather large accompanying document to the WA. No idea where that's at.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 14, 2019, 07:09:08 PM
Seems correct, AFAIK. Except that the UK is now down to less than 49 days.
As bananas aren’t imported from the EU I think he’s wrong about them being vastly more expensive, apart from that....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 14, 2019, 07:11:58 PM
Oh wait...

“Since 1st January, 2008, the African, Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) banana suppliers who have signed an EPA (Economic Partnership Agreement) have benefited from duty and quotafree access to the European Union market”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 07:32:39 PM
Oh wait...

“Since 1st January, 2008, the African, Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) banana suppliers who have signed an EPA (Economic Partnership Agreement) have benefited from duty and quotafree access to the European Union market”.

Not an expert in bananas, I'm afraid.

There's this whole bit:

    Free trade agreements including a stabilisation mechanism

    Since 2009, most of the major banana producers in Latin American have also signed free trade agreements with the EU:  Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Panama, Peru, Colombia and Ecuador. These agreements provide for a gradual reduction of the import duty for bananas from these countries down to € 75/t as of 1 January 2020. They also include a so-called ‘stabilisation mechanism’ that allows the EU, if it chooses to do so, to temporarily suspend the preferential tariffs when imports exceed pre-defined trigger levels and cause a serious disturbance on the EU banana market. These stabilisation mechanisms apply until the end of 2019, when the import duty will be set permanently at €75/t.

    More: Banana import monitoring report

    Economic partnership agreements with ACP countries

    A range of economic partnership agreements grant African, Caribbean and Pacific banana suppliers duty- and quota-free access to the European Union market.


    More: EU trade policy and ACP countries and EPAs in a nutshell.

https://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/bananas_en
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on February 14, 2019, 07:52:05 PM
As bananas aren’t imported from the EU I think he’s wrong about them being vastly more expensive, apart from that....

Actually that isn't strictly correct as bananas are imported from the Canary Islands, the Azores and several French Caribbean regions which also come under the EU auspices..
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 08:06:31 PM
Actually that isn't strictly correct as bananas are imported from the Canary Islands, the Azores and several French Caribbean regions which also come under the EU auspices..

John, you're not supposed to agree.  @)(++(*

How are you doing?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 09:05:58 PM
Bit of a shame that the UK only has a few weeks to benefit from the Japan deal, and the Singapore one, if it's also got legs.

Not surprised Dyson moved to Singapore as he'll have access to the EU market as well.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 14, 2019, 10:15:02 PM
Beyond the trade issues, I really don't get why May's so stuck on ending freedom of movement. I really don't  get it. I know that there was an issue about "detached" workers (basicallly dumping human labour from poorer countries), which undercut local labour, but a law was passed to end / restrict that in 2016.

What's so wrong about having the opportunity to study, work, live and love in another country if you're not a burden on the state?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 15, 2019, 08:28:46 AM
Beyond the trade issues, I really don't get why May's so stuck on ending freedom of movement. I really don't  get it. I know that there was an issue about "detached" workers (basicallly dumping human labour from poorer countries), which undercut local labour, but a law was passed to end / restrict that in 2016.

What's so wrong about having the opportunity to study, work, live and love in another country if you're not a burden on the state?

Are you of the opinion that a family aren't a burden on the state if they work? Thet would depend on whether their tax and NI contributions cover the costs of child tax credit, child benefit and education. Then there's healthcare for all the family too.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 15, 2019, 09:44:42 AM
Are you of the opinion that a family aren't a burden on the state if they work? Thet would depend on whether their tax and NI contributions cover the costs of child tax credit, child benefit and education. Then there's healthcare for all the family too.
Are the things you mention a burden on the state or an investment in the future? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 15, 2019, 10:39:00 AM
No country wants scroungers, they have enough to deal with with home-grown ones. Perhaps we could agree on at least that.

What happens to EU* partners of UK armed forces' personnel who have had to move around and now can't fulfill the permanent residency requirements?

*EU or non-EU, same principle.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 15, 2019, 12:10:32 PM
Are the things you mention a burden on the state or an investment in the future?

There isn't a simple either/or answer. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 15, 2019, 12:26:56 PM
No country wants scroungers, they have enough to deal with with home-grown ones. Perhaps we could agree on at least that.

What happens to EU* partners of UK armed forces' personnel who have had to move around and now can't fulfill the permanent residency requirements?

*EU or non-EU, same principle.

It depends how you define 'scrounging'.

What specific problems do EU partners of UK armed forces personnel face?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 15, 2019, 03:13:44 PM
It depends how you define 'scrounging'.

What specific problems do EU partners of UK armed forces personnel face?

On Twitter, an army wife  (EU) who'd moved around with UK hubby and their family all over the place, couldn't produce the required utility bills (I think it was) to prove she'd been continuously resident. Hardly surprising... From memory, she was trying to do it online and there are boxes to tick. If your situation means that you couldn't have done...  a bit up the creek.

Many other similar ones and no doubt the other way round.

Having online services can be helpful, but not if your situation doesn't fit into the vision of whoever dreamt up the categories that one should fit into.

And  the online app only works on Adroid... And there's an issue about all kinds of personal info that has to be submitted, but with no assurancee as to with whom that info will be shared.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 15, 2019, 03:36:47 PM
On Twitter, an army wife  (EU) who'd moved around with UK hubby and their family all over the place, couldn't produce the required utility bills (I think it was) to prove she'd been continuously resident. Hardly surprising... From memory, she was trying to do it online and there are boxes to tick. If your situation means that you couldn't have done...  a bit up the creek.

Many other similar ones and no doubt the other way round.

Having online services can be helpful, but not if your situation doesn't fit into the vision of whoever dreamt up the categories that one should fit into.

And  the online app only works on Adroid... And there's an issue about all kinds of personal info that has to be submitted, but with no assurancee as to with whom that info will be shared.

Presumably, she wasn't actually married to her husband at the time?  Or was she?  Household bills are always in the name of one person, which doesn't mean that his wife wasn't living there.

This getting beyond ridiculous.

Do yourselves a favour.  Stay in The EU.  It is becoming increasingly obvious that Britain has lost the plot.  Much as I am loathed to admit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 15, 2019, 06:43:35 PM
Presumably, she wasn't actually married to her husband at the time?  Or was she?  Household bills are always in the name of one person, which doesn't mean that his wife wasn't living there.

This getting beyond ridiculous.

Do yourselves a favour.  Stay in The EU.  It is becoming increasingly obvious that Britain has lost the plot.  Much as I am loathed to admit.
IMO people who voted Leave thought it would simple to just leave the EU,it wouldn’t cost us a bean and that everything would be so much better afterwards.  This was a fantasy.  We will leave and it will be enormously costly, extremely difficult to achieve and the future in terms of the economy looks quite uncertain.  This is what life is like in Britain today, you’re fortunate to be out of it IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 15, 2019, 06:51:31 PM
On Twitter, an army wife  (EU) who'd moved around with UK hubby and their family all over the place, couldn't produce the required utility bills (I think it was) to prove she'd been continuously resident. Hardly surprising... From memory, she was trying to do it online and there are boxes to tick. If your situation means that you couldn't have done...  a bit up the creek.

Many other similar ones and no doubt the other way round.

Having online services can be helpful, but not if your situation doesn't fit into the vision of whoever dreamt up the categories that one should fit into.

And  the online app only works on Adroid... And there's an issue about all kinds of personal info that has to be submitted, but with no assurancee as to with whom that info will be shared.

Well that's pretty vague. My guess is that she was trying to register for 'settled status' as the App for doing that only works on Android. It's happening because wives from the EU will no longer have the right to remain as EU citizens. Like forces wives from other countries, they will need to apply to stay. As will all EU citizens living here.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 15, 2019, 07:17:42 PM
Voted leave, lied to, now regrets it:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/15/brexit-lies-curry-vote-leave-restaurant-industry
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 15, 2019, 07:28:19 PM
IMO people who voted Leave thought it would simple to just leave the EU,it wouldn’t cost us a bean and that everything would be so much better afterwards.  This was a fantasy.  We will leave and it will be enormously costly, extremely difficult to achieve and the future in terms of the economy looks quite uncertain.  This is what life is like in Britain today, you’re fortunate to be out of it IMO.

Thanks.  I also think I am fortunate.

I seem to have lost touch over the years, but I did briefly hope that Britain might still have some pride.  However, pride doesn't butter toast.  That's the bit I forgot.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on February 15, 2019, 07:42:38 PM
IMO people who voted Leave thought it would simple to just leave the EU,it wouldn’t cost us a bean and that everything would be so much better afterwards.  This was a fantasy.  We will leave and it will be enormously costly, extremely difficult to achieve and the future in terms of the economy looks quite uncertain.  This is what life is like in Britain today, you’re fortunate to be out of it IMO.

People voted leave because they were sick to the back teeth of unelected bureaucrats dictating just about everything in our lives and paying handsomely for the privilege. People aren't stupid although there are those who would have us believe they are. Those who voted leave knew there would be a cost and were very prepared to accept that cost but what nobody was prepared for was the attacks on the process by those who would change the referendum result. People like Gina Miller, an immigrant from British Guyana who had the audacity to try and change the referendum result to suit her own agenda, no wonder she attracted so much abuse. 

Those idiots asking demanding a second referendum are a disgrace imo.  Asking people to voted again is a farce, no wonder Theresa May has ruled it out.

We will leave the EU and the sooner the better but hopefully on the 29th March 2019 as planned. Europe is planning for our departure on that date so we must not disappoint. There will be a cost but that applies to not only the UK but to every country in the EU. The EU will have to significantly tighten its monetary belt.  No longer will British millions be squandered on basket case economies.

The British economy will adapt and we will flourish again!

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 15, 2019, 07:46:41 PM
People voted leave because they were sick to the back teeth of unelected bureaucrats dictating just about everything in our lives and paying handsomely for the privilege. People aren't stupid although there are those who would have us believe they are. Those who voted leave knew there would be a cost and were very prepared to accept that cost but what nobody was prepared for was the attacks on the process by those who would change the referendum result. People like Gina Miller, an immigrant from British Guyana has the audacity to try and change the referendum result to suit her own agenda, no wonder she attracted so much abuse. 

Those idiots asking demanding a second referendum are a disgrace imo.  Asking people to voted again is a farce, no wonder Theresa May has ruled it out.

Yep.  You do have to laugh at that.  Don't like the first one so demand another one.  Best of three?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 15, 2019, 07:46:59 PM
People voted leave because they were sick to the back teeth of unelected bureaucrats dictating just about everything in our lives and paying handsomely for the privilege. People aren't stupid although there are those who would have us believe they are. Those who voted leave knew there would be a cost and were very prepared to accept that cost but what nobody was prepared for was the attacks on the process by those who would change the referendum result. People like Gina Miller, an immigrant from British Guyana has the audacity to try and change the referendum result to suit her own agenda, no wonder she attracted so much abuse. 

Those idiots asking demanding a second referendum are a disgrace imo.  Asking people to voted again is a farce, no wonder Theresa May has ruled it out.
What cost did the Leave Campaign tell us that Brexit would cost us?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 15, 2019, 07:48:35 PM
Yep.  You do have to laugh at that.  Don't like the first one so demand another one.  Best of three?
Nigel Farage thought we’d need a second referendum was 52:48, problem is he thought Remain would win which is why he said it.  Such blatant hypocrisy!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 15, 2019, 07:51:51 PM
Nigel Farage thought we’d need a second referendum was 52:48, problem is he thought Remain would win which is why he said it.  Such blatant hypocrisy!

Everybody thought that Remain would win.  There wouldn't have been a Referendum in the first place otherwise.  Whoops.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on February 15, 2019, 07:57:59 PM
What cost did the Leave Campaign tell us that Brexit would cost us?

When an economy as big as ours leaves an institution as big as the EU there will inevitably be losers and winners.  Exporters are already reaping the benefits of a devalued pound and tourism to these islands hasn't been better. It's an ill wind which doesn't blow some benefit they say. The Leave Campaign could have said anything but people would still have voted leave.

I have seen how Spain has been impacted by the EU and the introduction of the Euro. Things became massively more expensive overnight. Millions of homes, some half built, are lying empty, 20% of all youth are unemployed.

Is France the same Eleanor because it must be if the 'jaune gilets' demonstrations in Paris every weekend are anything to go by?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 15, 2019, 08:01:00 PM
When an economy as big as ours leaves an institution as big as the EU there will inevitably be losers and winners.  Exporters are already reaping the benefits of a devalued pound and tourism to these islands hasn't been better. It's an ill wind which doesn't blow some benefit they say. The Leave Campaign could have said anything but people would still have voted leave. I have seen how Spain has been impacted by the EU and the introduction of the Euro. Things became massively more expensive overnight. Millions of homes, some half built, are lying empty, 20% of all youth are unemployed.
Sorry that doesn’t answer my question.  Were Leavers told we would be expected to pay tens of billions as part of the divorce settlement?  Or were they led to believe by the Leave Vampaign that we’d simply  tell Johnny Foreigner to stuff his demands where the sun don’t shine, after all they heed us more than we need them, blah blah blah?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on February 15, 2019, 08:03:12 PM
Sorry that doesn’t answer my question.  Were Leavers told we would be expected to pay tens of billions as part of the divorce settlement?  Or were they led to believe by the Leave Vampaign that we’d simply  tell Johnny Foreigner to stuff his demands where the sun don’t shine, after all they heed us more than we need them, blah blah blah?

The £39 billion is still very much up for debate.  Personally I think we shouldn't pay another dime to the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 15, 2019, 08:03:44 PM
When an economy as big as ours leaves an institution as big as the EU there will inevitably be losers and winners.  Exporters are already reaping the benefits of a devalued pound and tourism to these islands hasn't been better. It's an ill wind which doesn't blow some benefit they say. The Leave Campaign could have said anything but people would still have voted leave.

I have seen how Spain has been impacted by the EU and the introduction of the Euro. Things became massively more expensive overnight. Millions of homes, some half built, are lying empty, 20% of all youth are unemployed.

I was eight years already here on the introduction of The Euro.  Prices were recorded in both Euros and Francs for a very long time.  Things still haven't changed vey much at all.  And I am still getting the same miserable amount for my Pension that I was five years ago.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 15, 2019, 08:08:31 PM
Thanks.  I also think I am fortunate.

I seem to have lost touch over the years, but I did briefly hope that Britain might still have some pride.  However, pride doesn't butter toast.  That's the bit I forgot.

Our politicians have no pride or integrity in my opinion, but they're not 'Britain' any more than Trump is 'America'.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 15, 2019, 08:17:08 PM
When an economy as big as ours leaves an institution as big as the EU there will inevitably be losers and winners.  Exporters are already reaping the benefits of a devalued pound and tourism to these islands hasn't been better. It's an ill wind which doesn't blow some benefit they say. The Leave Campaign could have said anything but people would still have voted leave.

I have seen how Spain has been impacted by the EU and the introduction of the Euro. Things became massively more expensive overnight. Millions of homes, some half built, are lying empty, 20% of all youth are unemployed.

Is France the same Eleanor because it must be if the 'jaune gilets' demonstrations in Paris every weekend are anything to go by?

My son will be in Pontivy tomorrow as a member of The French Fire Service, just in case.  But I don't think they are expecting a really problem.

The consensus of opinion seems to be that Rabble Rousers who don't care about anything except a good day out, are what is escalating the demonstrations.
Same old same old.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 15, 2019, 08:29:54 PM
Our politicians have no pride or integrity in my opinion, but they're not 'Britain' any more than Trump is 'America'.
I don’t think you can say that about all 640 of them.  They are not ALL self-serving mendacious prats (though many are I grant you).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 15, 2019, 08:42:23 PM
“Brexit has already wiped £40 billion off Britain’s annual economic growth since the 2016 referendum, a top Bank of England official revealed today.

Gertjan Vlieghe said it amounted to £800 million per week of “lost income for the country” -- more than twice as much as the £350 million a week that the Vote Leave campaign claimed could be “saved” by quitting the European Union”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 15, 2019, 09:17:15 PM
I don’t think you can say that about all 640 of them.  They are not ALL self-serving mendacious prats (though many are I grant you).

The only one showing moral integrity in my ipinion is Theresa May. She is doing her best to deliver what the people voted for.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 15, 2019, 09:25:43 PM
The only one showing moral integrity in my ipinion is Theresa May. She is doing her best to deliver what the people voted for.
I don’t think she is the only mp showing moral integrity butI agree she is trying hard to implement a version of Brexit she believes the people voted for.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 15, 2019, 09:48:12 PM
“Brexit has already wiped £40 billion off Britain’s annual economic growth since the 2016 referendum, a top Bank of England official revealed today.

Gertjan Vlieghe said it amounted to £800 million per week of “lost income for the country” -- more than twice as much as the £350 million a week that the Vote Leave campaign claimed could be “saved” by quitting the European Union”.

You can blame the dissenters for that because of the chaos they have caused.  Parliament should have got behind the PM and delivered BREXIT as it is the will of the majority and the last time I looked we all live in a democracy.  MP's like Amber Rudd, Dominic Grieve and Yvette Cooper should be booted out.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 15, 2019, 10:45:29 PM
You can blame the dissenters for that because of the chaos they have caused.  Parliament should have got behind the PM and delivered BREXIT as it is the will of the majority and the last time I looked we all live in a democracy.  MP's like Amber Rudd, Dominic Grieve and Yvette Cooper should be booted out.
I’m sorry but how exactly are the “dissenters” to blame for wiping £40 billion off Britain’s annual economic growth?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 01:33:58 AM
Well that's pretty vague. My guess is that she was trying to register for 'settled status' as the App for doing that only works on Android. It's happening because wives from the EU will no longer have the right to remain as EU citizens. Like forces wives from other countries, they will need to apply to stay. As will all EU citizens living here.

A different situation via Twitter that popped into my TL a few days ago (going from memory and I can't remember all the details): a couple in the UK for ages. She's British and he's Belgian. He's been very ill for a few years and she's more or less his carer now. They recently got a letter from the Belgian health service to say that post-Brexit, they would no longer be paying for his health care, and if they couldn't find another solution, they'd have to move to Belgium. Apart from the odd visit, she hasn't lived there, doesn't speak the language and "home" for both of them is the UK. They also have an adult daughter with autism, who also needs her parents around and would be devastated at being uprooted. If they did move, she might have trouble getting medical insurance herself.

I come across so many people tearing their hair out with worry about the very real consequences of this mess.  8(8-))

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 01:41:46 AM
BBCQT: a woman in the UK who started and expanded a business, with staff, selling both in the UK and the EU explains how she may have to move a proportion of her venture to the EU. On the panel is JRM...

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1096220940885782528
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 02:33:49 AM
Presumably, she wasn't actually married to her husband at the time?  Or was she?  Household bills are always in the name of one person, which doesn't mean that his wife wasn't living there.

This getting beyond ridiculous.

Do yourselves a favour.  Stay in The EU.  It is becoming increasingly obvious that Britain has lost the plot.  Much as I am loathed to admit.

She referred to him as her husband and they have adult children.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 03:14:37 AM
People voted leave because they were sick to the back teeth of unelected bureaucrats dictating just about everything in our lives and paying handsomely for the privilege. People aren't stupid although there are those who would have us believe they are. Those who voted leave knew there would be a cost and were very prepared to accept that cost but what nobody was prepared for was the attacks on the process by those who would change the referendum result. People like Gina Miller, an immigrant from British Guyana who had the audacity to try and change the referendum result to suit her own agenda, no wonder she attracted so much abuse. 

Those idiots asking demanding a second referendum are a disgrace imo.  Asking people to voted again is a farce, no wonder Theresa May has ruled it out.

We will leave the EU and the sooner the better but hopefully on the 29th March 2019 as planned. Europe is planning for our departure on that date so we must not disappoint. There will be a cost but that applies to not only the UK but to every country in the EU. The EU will have to significantly tighten its monetary belt.  No longer will British millions be squandered on basket case economies.

The British economy will adapt and we will flourish again!

On the topic of "unelected bureaucrats"... Who isn't elected?


If someone in the UK voted for their MP in whichever constituency, they don't vote on UK cabinet appointments, or the shadow cabinet. Nor ambassadors or other government representatives, for that matter.

Aside from the PM, all of the UK frontbenchers are also "unelected bureaucrats" then, aren't they?

Re the EU:

- The heads of government who make up the Council are elected nationally, currently May.

- The MEPs in Parliament: The UK voted for their 73 MEPs, one of whom is... Farage, in all their wisdom.

- The members of the Commission are proposed by the members' governments.

A European Commissioner is a member of the European Commission. Each Commissioner within the college holds a specific portfolio and are led by the President of the European Commission. In simple terms they are the equivalent of national ministers. Each European Union member state has the right to a single commissioner (before 2004, the four largest states—France, Germany, Italy and the United Kingdom—were granted two) and appoints them in consultation with the President.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Commissioners_by_nationality#United_Kingdom

The current UK Commissioner is Julian King, who is responsible for Security Union.
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries/unitedkingdom_en
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commissioners/2014-2019/king_en
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_King_(diplomat)

- The Council of the EU (a different body to the EU Council, confusingly) is made up of national ministers and the national governments' representatives.

ETA: picking up on another part of this sentence:

"People voted leave because they were sick to the back teeth of unelected bureaucrats dictating just about everything in our lives and paying handsomely for the privilege."

In what ways are "they" (actually the UK and others) dictating "just about everything in our lives"?

Which EU laws do you feel the UK should scrap?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 03:27:11 AM
You can blame the dissenters for that because of the chaos they have caused.  Parliament should have got behind the PM and delivered BREXIT as it is the will of the majority and the last time I looked we all live in a democracy.  MP's like Amber Rudd, Dominic Grieve and Yvette Cooper should be booted out.

But what exactly IS Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 16, 2019, 06:58:49 AM
A different situation via Twitter that popped into my TL a few days ago (going from memory and I can't remember all the details): a couple in the UK for ages. She's British and he's Belgian. He's been very ill for a few years and she's more or less his carer now. They recently got a letter from the Belgian health service to say that post-Brexit, they would no longer be paying for his health care, and if they couldn't find another solution, they'd have to move to Belgium. Apart from the odd visit, she hasn't lived there, doesn't speak the language and "home" for both of them is the UK. They also have an adult daughter with autism, who also needs her parents around and would be devastated at being uprooted. If they did move, she might have trouble getting medical insurance herself.

I come across so many people tearing their hair out with worry about the very real consequences of this mess.  8(8-))

It sounds like he needs to apply for 'settled status' too.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 16, 2019, 07:10:27 AM
But what exactly IS Brexit?

After it happens there will be 27 EU countries instead of 28.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 07:26:03 AM
It sounds like he needs to apply for 'settled status' too.


The EHIC / S1 reciprocal health care arrangement is going out of the window (to check if that's only in the event of a no-deal, or whether that would apply even in the event of a deal) and people are supposed to apply for a "comprehensive sickness insurance" in their country of residence. I still haven't got to the bottom of what that actually is, nor how anyone is supposed to get it. I was told it's private - but for people who already have health conditions, the premiums are likely to be way above what an average household can afford or the condition in question may even be excluded.

Brits in the EU face the same issue.

If having this CSI is a prerequisite for settled status, what on earth are people in these kinds of situation supposed to do?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 07:27:13 AM
After it happens there will be 27 EU countries instead of 28.

LOL Yes, but beyond that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 07:45:42 AM

Ciaran Jenkins
‏Verified account @C4Ciaran

Free healthcare for UK pensioners in EU ends under No Deal unless there are new arrangements.

Govt advice is take out private medical.

I met Brit in Spain whose meds would otherwise cost €700 a month. Quoted €100K a year for cover and ‘terrified’.
https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1094317672429424641
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 07:57:20 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzVzioVWkAA1rKx.jpg)

https://twitter.com/2di2d/status/1095909156207366149
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 16, 2019, 08:23:15 AM
“Ford has said it will do “whatever is necessary” to protect its business in the face of no-deal Brexit as it ramps up plans to move UK manufacturing jobs overseas.

The US car giant employs 13,000 people in the UK including 5,000 in manufacturing roles at its Bridgend, Dagenham and Halewood plants and 3,000 at its research and development hub.

On Wednesday, Ford warned that crashing out of the EU with no trade deal would threaten the future of its UK operations.

“Such a situation would be catastrophic for the UK auto industry and Ford’s manufacturing operations in the country,” the company said in a statement”.

“We will take whatever action is necessary to preserve the competitiveness of our European business.”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 08:37:51 AM
“Ford has said it will do “whatever is necessary” to protect its business in the face of no-deal Brexit as it ramps up plans to move UK manufacturing jobs overseas.

The US car giant employs 13,000 people in the UK including 5,000 in manufacturing roles at its Bridgend, Dagenham and Halewood plants and 3,000 at its research and development hub.

On Wednesday, Ford warned that crashing out of the EU with no trade deal would threaten the future of its UK operations.

“Such a situation would be catastrophic for the UK auto industry and Ford’s manufacturing operations in the country,” the company said in a statement”.

“We will take whatever action is necessary to preserve the competitiveness of our European business.”


Ah, but although in 2016 Minford's opinion was that a no-deal Brexit would decimate UK manufacturing, his apparently most recent view is that no deal isn't a problem at all as the EU (and presumably others) would have to lower the price of their goods to absorb the tariff. He thinks this is a clever scheme that would both give the UK an advantage and hurt the EU (to much clapping).
https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1096520177515155459
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 08:43:59 AM
Seemingly Porsche, for one, doesn't quite see it that way...


Porsche asks UK buyers to commit to 10% no-deal Brexit surcharge

Company says move is a precaution in case WTO tariffs apply to EU-UK trade

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/15/porsche-asks-uk-buyers-to-commit-to-10-no-deal-brexit-surcharge
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 16, 2019, 08:46:30 AM
LOL Yes, but beyond that?

That's what the politicians should be concentrating on instead of  trying to prevent the result of the referendum from being implemented.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 16, 2019, 08:52:50 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzVzioVWkAA1rKx.jpg)

https://twitter.com/2di2d/status/1095909156207366149

Judging by that the UK was never very committed to EU membership, was it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 08:53:32 AM
That's what the politicians should be concentrating on instead of  trying to prevent the result of the referendum from being implemented.

Well after over 2 years, no one seems to agree - and if a deal can't get past Parliament (and the ERG appear to be in favour of a no-deal), then what? The UK is by default out on its bum.

The only way out of not crashing might well be for a new ref or a revocation.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 08:55:47 AM
Judging by that the UK was never very committed to EU membership, was it?

It was certainly able to cherry-pick as a member, and had considerable influence over EU laws; a luxury it will no longer have.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 09:10:14 AM
Back to the EU having to absorb the cost of tariffs by lowering their prices, AFAIK, that certainly wouldn't happen in the car industry, nor in the agri sector.

From memory, the tariff on a car is 10%, but the profit margin is only 10% for a "normal" car (so I'm told). Are EU manufacturers expected to offer them at cost?

What about dairy and sheep meat imports (lamb chops, etc.), for example, where the tariffs range from 35% (dairy) to 50% on certain cuts of lamb? Are farmers supposed to export at a loss?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 16, 2019, 09:21:01 AM
Ciaran Jenkins
‏Verified account @C4Ciaran

Free healthcare for UK pensioners in EU ends under No Deal unless there are new arrangements.

Govt advice is take out private medical.

I met Brit in Spain whose meds would otherwise cost €700 a month. Quoted €100K a year for cover and ‘terrified’.
https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1094317672429424641

If we leave the EU on 29th March without a deal ex pats in France, for example, will be treated as they are now for another two years. During that time the plan is to put new reciprocal arrangements in place. In my opinion stories such as the above are irresponsible and are intended to alarm.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
If we leave the EU on 29th March without a deal ex pats in France, for example, will be treated as they are now for another two years. During that time the plan is to put new reciprocal arrangements in place. In my opinion stories such as the above are irresponsible and are intended to alarm.

That's not what I've read. Can you remember where you read that?

What I've read is somewhat different:
https://www.thelocal.fr/20190208/no-deal-brexit-what-the-new-french-law-means-for-britons-in-france-so-far
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 09:28:01 AM
Before I lose it (I really don't have the time to double-check it at the moment)



James Melville
‏ @JamesMelville

Since 1999, the UK has voted in agreement with 95% of EU laws. The UK has only voted against 2% of EU laws - of which most of them were related to tax avoidance regulation.
11:08 PM - 13 Feb 2019
https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1095973062456029184
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 09:43:06 AM
AS A MEMBER of the European Union, Britain participates in around 40 free-trade agreements with over 70 countries, covering around 15% of Britain’s trade. The government has said that it aims to reach bilateral agreements with these countries, so that the deals roll over even if Britain leaves the EU on March 29th without a deal. “[P]eople should be reassured that the government is taking a responsible approach,” it has soothed.

But an official document leaked to the Sun newspaper shows that just six deals are on track to meet the end-March deadline. They include one with the Faroe Islands; Faroese-British trade amounts to around £250m a year (about 0.02% of Britain’s total foreign trade). An agreement with Switzerland that was announced on Monday counts for more.
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2019/02/13/a-no-deal-brexit-would-affect-more-than-just-british-trade-with-the-eu?fsrc=scn/tw/te/bl/ed/anodealbrexitwouldaffectmorethanjustbritishtradewiththeeudailychart
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 09:57:35 AM

Japan seeking big concessions from Britain in trade talks

Lack of clarity about UK-EU trading relationship after Brexit also holding up progress

Japan is seeking tougher concessions from Britain in trade talks than it secured from the EU, while negotiations between London and Tokyo are also being slowed by the looming risk of no-deal Brexit.

Japanese trade negotiators are confident they can extract better terms, the Financial Times reported, in a sign of the mounting difficulties facing UK officials as they attempt to line up post-Brexit trade deals around the world.

Japan and the EU began trading under a new free trade agreement this month, an arrangement that will be unavailable to the UK after Brexit. While officials from the UK and Japan are seeking to agree a bilateral deal, it will not be in place before 29 March when Britain is scheduled to leave the EU. The UK’s trade with Japan will also revert to World Trade Organization tariffs in the case of a no-deal Brexit.

The Department for International Trade (DIT) told business leaders this week that time was running out for Britain to roll-over trade deals with about 60 countries the EU has free trade arrangements with, which the UK benefits from until it leaves the bloc. Barring a handful of small and medium-sized countries, including Chile and the Faroe Islands, the majority of deals are expected to miss the deadline.

One attendee at the meeting said the lack of clarity about the UK’s trading relationship with the EU after Brexit had held up progress, and that the Japan-EU deal included a “most-favoured nation” clause that meant Tokyo could not offer anything better on trade in services to Britain than it had given to the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/08/japan-seeking-big-concessions-from-britain-in-trade-talks-eu-brexit?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1549656696

Any bi- or multilateral trade agreement in the world that has an MFN clause in it will not be able to offer the UK better terms than it has agreed with the partners of that agreement.

Therefore, the best that the UK could get from any of those countries bound by an agreement is the same.* Due to the relatively small size of the UK market compared to that of the EU, plus the fact that the UK will be seen as desperate, who has the upper hand?

* One caveat to that might be if the agreement doesn't cover whatever it may be that the UK wants, but I'm not sure.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 16, 2019, 10:03:05 AM
Well after over 2 years, no one seems to agree - and if a deal can't get past Parliament (and the ERG appear to be in favour of a no-deal), then what? The UK is by default out on its bum.

The only way out of not crashing might well be for a new ref or a revocation.

So 650 MP's are preventing the will of 17+ million people from being carried out.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 16, 2019, 10:09:59 AM
That's not what I've read. Can you remember where you read that?

What I've read is somewhat different:
https://www.thelocal.fr/20190208/no-deal-brexit-what-the-new-french-law-means-for-britons-in-france-so-far

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-france#healthcare-in-france
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 10:20:40 AM
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-france#healthcare-in-france

Thanks, but that was in the scenario of an agreed WA.


If the UK leaves the EU without a deal on 29 March 2019, your access to healthcare is likely to change.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 10:29:27 AM
It's not just health care, either. All kinds of things - pensioners don't know how they'd get their UK pension, employees will have to apply for a work permit, and that's quite apart from applying for the equivalent of settled residency.

A total mess for a large proportion of 5 million people.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 10:34:15 AM
I know that this is about fishing, but it could equally belong here as it concerns how local businesses are being affected.

I find it so sad. They were sold a bridge by Farage et al., while he can collect his pension as an MEP, plus any income from all his speaking engagements.

This chap doesn't have that luxury....

Cornwall for Europe
Published on Feb 7, 2019
We met this Looe fisherman in Bodmin. He exports almost all of his spider crab and Lobster to Spain and he's concerned about delays at ports.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wYuRSYzkLQ
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 10:41:12 AM
Brexit concerns for florists (often tiny local businesses)...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RohswRETehs

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 11:12:29 AM
What's going to happen to all the little startups that venture investors, e.g., the Dragon's Den invest in if they can't get into overseas markets without extra hassle, tariffs, non-trade barriers and all the rest of it? What will happen to the people that they would gradually be able to employ and all the annexe businesses that would benefit?

Should the UK just let them go out of business?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 11:19:58 AM

Julia Hartley-Brewer
‏Verified account @JuliaHB1

Amazing. Brexit is now fewer than 1,000 hours away. #BringItOn
12:29 AM - 16 Feb 2019


talkRADIO
‏Verified account @talkRADIO

Julia: "We voted for Brexit to bring sovereignty back to the British people. It's the remoaners who are the hardliners. It's the remoaners who are the extremists. In a democracy those kinds of people need to be stopped."

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1096310818373804032


1000 hours to go and NO plan, she says "Bring it on".


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 11:25:51 AM
 Julia Hartley-Brewer Retweeted
Richard Tice
‏Verified account @TiceRichard
51m51 minutes ago

Richard Tice Retweeted Channel 4 News

Another brilliant Govt negotiator: “I must have a deal however much it costs....” totally out of touch with mood of country which is Let’s Go WTO and save £39 billion. When will the Govt wake up and start listening.....


Try booking a hotel when you're well-known for not having paid for previous stays or for wrecking the joint....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 16, 2019, 12:05:56 PM
No deal is better than a bad deal.... There may well be an initial period of difficulty but if that leads to a better long term result it will be worth it..

We cannot continue to supply benefits... Health-care.. Education to an unlimited number of immigrants just because a few UK citizens have decided to retire abroad..
I can't simply go and live in the country if my choice and expect the host government to support my healthcare...my childtens healthcare abd education
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 01:54:28 PM
No deal is better than a bad deal.... There may well be an initial period of difficulty but if that leads to a better long term result it will be worth it..

We cannot continue to supply benefits... Health-care.. Education to an unlimited number of immigrants just because a few UK citizens have decided to retire abroad..
I can't simply go and live in the country if my choice and expect the host government to support my healthcare...my childtens healthcare abd education

Have you examined the reciprocal rights that exist (which will soon end)?

Who says that Brexit will only affect pensioners overseas?

What about younger people who've started businesses in the UK and who've expanded to the EU? Or have moved there? What about them?  Or EU citizens who've done the same?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 16, 2019, 02:11:57 PM
It's not just health care, either. All kinds of things - pensioners don't know how they'd get their UK pension, employees will have to apply for a work permit, and that's quite apart from applying for the equivalent of settled residency.

A total mess for a large proportion of 5 million people.

Five million? AFAIK there are an estimated 1.24 million Brits living in the EU. In my opinion people working there are unlikely to be on local wage rates. Wages in Portugal in 2000 were equal to one third of UK wages, for example. Pensioners found cheap property prices and a cheaper cost of living along with better weather.

Sp leaving the UK made sense for some people and that's what they chose to do. What was/is unrealistic was/is expecting things to stay the same. Change happens and adjustments are necessary.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 16, 2019, 02:48:32 PM
Have you examined the reciprocal rights that exist (which will soon end)?

Who says that Brexit will only affect pensioners overseas?

What about younger people who've started businesses in the UK and who've expanded to the EU? Or have moved there? What about them?  Or EU citizens who've done the same?

I agree  people will be affected but will it be better in the long term to regain our sovereignty.  I watched a programme Re Cameron leading up to the referendum... He went to eorope to limit the rights of EU citizens to UK benefits... He went twice.. And each time he was basically ignored and treated like dirt by Juncker and his cronies... It may be painful but long term I think we will be better out
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 03:11:42 PM
I agree  people will be affected but will it be better in the long term to regain our sovereignty.  I watched a programme Re Cameron leading up to the referendum... He went to eorope to limit the rights of EU citizens to UK benefits... He went twice.. And each time he was basically ignored and treated like dirt by Juncker and his cronies... It may be painful but long term I think we will be better out

What do you mean by sovereignty?

In which  ways will the UK have sovereignty that it didn't have before, and in which ways could leaving make the UK lose it in some respects?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 16, 2019, 04:23:27 PM
What do you mean by sovereingty?

In which  ways will the UK have sovereignty that it didn't have before, and in which ways could leaving make the UK lose it in some respects?

What Cameron wanted: Allowing Britain to opt out from the EU's founding ambition to forge an "ever closer union" of the peoples of Europe so it will not be drawn into further political integration in a "formal, legally binding and irreversible way". Giving greater powers to national parliaments to block EU legislation.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 05:21:21 PM
What Cameron wanted: Allowing Britain to opt out from the EU's founding ambition to forge an "ever closer union" of the peoples of Europe so it will not be drawn into further political integration in a "formal, legally binding and irreversible way". Giving greater powers to national parliaments to block EU legislation.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105
Ok, have a look at this.

The UK didn't have to join everything.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7436.msg513323#msg513323
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 05:59:26 PM
I agree  people will be affected but will it be better in the long term to regain our sovereignty.  I watched a programme Re Cameron leading up to the referendum... He went to eorope to limit the rights of EU citizens to UK benefits... He went twice.. And each time he was basically ignored and treated like dirt by Juncker and his cronies... It may be painful but long term I think we will be better out

Which benefits were these?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 16, 2019, 06:16:19 PM
Which benefitts were these?

Job seekers.. Tax credits... Child benefit... Social housing... Cameron wanted them all limited ..and I think that was quite a reasonable request
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 16, 2019, 06:24:54 PM
Job seekers.. Tax credits... Child benefit... Social housing... Cameron wanted them all limited


Have you checked on EU laws regarding how long people can stay without proof of adequate resources to sustain themselves?




Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 16, 2019, 06:33:10 PM

Have you checked on EU laws regarding how long people can stay without proof of adequate resources to sustain themselves?

You tell me... I'm simply quoting from the BBC article... I watched the programme and Cameron was snubbed by the EU.... His treatment was, awful

The manifesto also pledged to "end the ability of EU jobseekers to claim any job-seeking benefits at all", adding that "if jobseekers have not found a job within six months, they will be required to leave"....whats wrong with taht
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 16, 2019, 08:51:02 PM

Have you checked on EU laws regarding how long people can stay without proof of adequate resources to sustain themselves?

As I said... As you have made that statement perhaps you could enlighten us...

From what I understand any EEA national registered as a jobseeker satisfies the HRT test and is entitled to a range of benefits .
I don't see the need for the emotive language you use... Crashing out of the EU.. For instance... No deal is better than a bad deal... And out may be far better long term than in
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 16, 2019, 09:05:53 PM
Job seekers.. Tax credits... Child benefit... Social housing... Cameron wanted them all limited ..and I think that was quite a reasonable request

The UK ended up caring for citizens from poorer EU countrys as well as for it's own people.It was never going to be reciprocal because UK citizens were never going to be attracted to live in those countries, except for retired people who were going to benefit from cheap property, a lower cost of living and sunshine.

We were told (and still are) that our economy needed those people to come here and work because we had an aging population. I found that strange because we had unemployed people here. So then we were told that our citizens were workshy. Recently EU citizens have stopped coming and others have gone back home. I see no economic collapse, so were we being told lies?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 16, 2019, 09:56:34 PM
The UK ended up caring for citizens from poorer EU countrys as well as for it's own people.It was never going to be reciprocal because UK citizens were never going to be attracted to live in those countries, except for retired people who were going to benefit from cheap property, a lower cost of living and sunshine.

We were told (and still are) that our economy needed those people to come here and work because we had an aging population. I found that strange because we had unemployed people here. So then we were told that our citizens were workshy. Recently EU citizens have stopped coming and others have gone back home. I see no economic collapse, so were we being told lies?
Fewer people are coming from the EU but net migration rates have stayed unchanged owing to greater numbers coming from outside the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 16, 2019, 10:10:54 PM
Fewer people are coming from the EU but net migration rates have stayed unchanged owing to greater numbers coming from outside the EU.
How accurate are the figures...


CHARITYFull Fact
MENU
Home Europe EU immigration
EU immigration to the UK: what the National Insurance numbers reveal
Published: 12th May 2016

Earlier this year, there was controversy over whether our immigration estimates have been missing large numbers of immigrants from the rest of the EU, with some outlets accusing officials of a “cover up”.

Routine immigration estimates in February suggested around 257,000 nationals from other EU countries migrated to the UK in the year to September 2015.

But another set of figures showed that 655,000 National Insurance (NI) numbers had been issued to EU nationals over the same period. NI numbers are allocated to foreign nationals looking to work or claim benefits in the UK.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 16, 2019, 10:17:55 PM
How accurate are the figures...


CHARITYFull Fact
MENU
Home Europe EU immigration
EU immigration to the UK: what the National Insurance numbers reveal
Published: 12th May 2016

Earlier this year, there was controversy over whether our immigration estimates have been missing large numbers of immigrants from the rest of the EU, with some outlets accusing officials of a “cover up”.

Routine immigration estimates in February suggested around 257,000 nationals from other EU countries migrated to the UK in the year to September 2015.

But another set of figures showed that 655,000 National Insurance (NI) numbers had been issued to EU nationals over the same period. NI numbers are allocated to foreign nationals looking to work or claim benefits in the UK.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/
Whatever the veracity of the figures Brexit is not going to stop immigration, if anything it will grow post Brexit if the article I posted earlier is correct.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 07:08:34 AM
The UK ended up caring for citizens from poorer EU countrys as well as for it's own people.It was never going to be reciprocal because UK citizens were never going to be attracted to live in those countries, except for retired people who were going to benefit from cheap property, a lower cost of living and sunshine.

We were told (and still are) that our economy needed those people to come here and work because we had an aging population. I found that strange because we had unemployed people here. So then we were told that our citizens were workshy. Recently EU citizens have stopped coming and others have gone back home. I see no economic collapse, so were we being told lies?

Whether there will be an economic collapse may depend on the outcome (which no one knows, including the government). The economy might not "collapse", but could head towards a major recession with no obvious means of getting back on track.

For every company that shifts operations to an EU country, or small businesses that end up throwing in the towel, what will offset the economic consequences?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 07:12:32 AM
I had to look up this Tier 2 visa thing to work in the UK.

NHS urges easing UK visa rules for non-EU medical recruits
Employers join campaign after applications from Europe dry up following Brexit vote

(...)

   The visa cap has hit the NHS particularly hard because the points-based system sorts applicants partly according to their expected salary, with the minimum fluctuating according the number of excess applicants and their points ratings. The lowest eligible salary in January was £46,000, according to the Home Office.

Many would-be immigrant doctors would earn too little to qualify. The University Hospitals Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust has said it has had 18 applicants rejected because of the issue.

https://www.ft.com/content/5f80cdf0-0dba-11e8-8eb7-42f857ea9f09

This dates from 2017, so I'm not sure whether it's still the case or not.

NHS nursing: Up to 40,000 posts unfilled

The Royal College of Nursing (RCN) estimates that the NHS in England has as many as 40,000 unfilled posts. It's now calling for staffing levels to be guaranteed in law.

The Conservatives say there are thousands more nurses on the wards of acute hospitals in England.

But the chief executive of the Royal College of Nursing, Janet Davies, says the situation is unacceptable.

    14 May 2017
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-39913481/nhs-nursing-up-to-40000-posts-unfilled



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2019, 07:18:05 AM
Whatever the veracity of the figures Brexit is not going to stop immigration, if anything it will grow post Brexit if the article I posted earlier is correct.

Nothing wrong with immigration but it should be controlled immigration.... Not an open door with access to our welfare, system.... Immigration for jobs fine.... Not for welfare
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 07:20:19 AM
Job seekers.. Tax credits... Child benefit... Social housing... Cameron wanted them all limited ..and I think that was quite a reasonable request

Took a while to find this again.

In 2015-16, EEA nationals paid £15.5 billion more Income Tax and National
Insurance than they took out in tax credits and Child Benefit.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9334.msg496925#msg496925
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2019, 07:21:08 AM
I had to look up this Tier 2 visa thing to work in the UK.

NHS urges easing UK visa rules for non-EU medical recruits
Employers join campaign after applications from Europe dry up following Brexit vote

(...)

   The visa cap has hit the NHS particularly hard because the points-based system sorts applicants partly according to their expected salary, with the minimum fluctuating according the number of excess applicants and their points ratings. The lowest eligible salary in January was £46,000, according to the Home Office.

Many would-be immigrant doctors would earn too little to qualify. The University Hospitals Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust has said it has had 18 applicants rejected because of the issue.

https://www.ft.com/content/5f80cdf0-0dba-11e8-8eb7-42f857ea9f09

This dates from 2017, so I'm not sure whether it's still the case or not.

NHS nursing: Up to 40,000 posts unfilled

The Royal College of Nursing (RCN) estimates that the NHS in England has as many as 40,000 unfilled posts. It's now calling for staffing levels to be guaranteed in law.

The Conservatives say there are thousands more nurses on the wards of acute hospitals in England.

But the chief executive of the Royal College of Nursing, Janet Davies, says the situation is unacceptable.

    14 May 2017
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-39913481/nhs-nursing-up-to-40000-posts-unfilled

It's a, shame we can't train our own medical staff... My eldest is a doctor but he's gone to Australia ...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2019, 07:27:31 AM
Took a while to find this again.

In 2015-16, EEA nationals paid £15.5 billion more Income Tax and National
Insurance than they took out in tax credits and Child Benefit.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9334.msg496925#msg496925


From your link...

The resulting estimates suggested that the net fiscal impact of immigrants was negative (-£1 billion for 1999-2000 and -£5 billion for 2003-2004). Alternative estimates allocating all children of mixed couples to the immigrant group show the fiscal cost of migrants to be much higher (around -£3.8 billion in 1999-2000).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 07:31:19 AM
You tell me... I'm simply quoting from the BBC article... I watched the programme and Cameron was snubbed by the EU.... His treatment was, awful

The manifesto also pledged to "end the ability of EU jobseekers to claim any job-seeking benefits at all", adding that "if jobseekers have not found a job within six months, they will be required to leave"....whats wrong with taht

it's not really a "law", but a directive (i.e., the broad objective).


Article 7

Right of residence for more than three months

1.  All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of longer than three months if they:

(a) are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or

(b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or

(c)
 

— are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and

— have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence; or

(d) are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).

2.  The right of residence provided for in paragraph 1 shall extend to family members who are not nationals of a Member State, accompanying or joining the Union citizen in the host Member State, provided that such Union citizen satisfies the conditions referred to in paragraph 1(a), (b) or (c).

3.  For the purposes of paragraph 1(a), a Union citizen who is no longer a worker or self-employed person shall retain the status of worker or self-employed person in the following circumstances:

(a) he/she is temporarily unable to work as the result of an illness or accident;

(b) he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after having been employed for more than one year and has registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment office;

(c) he/she is in duly recorded involuntary unemployment after completing a fixed-term employment contract of less than a year or after having become involuntarily unemployed during the first twelve months and has registered as a job-seeker with the relevant employment office. In this case, the status of worker shall be retained for no less than six months;

(d) he/she embarks on vocational training. Unless he/she is involuntarily unemployed, the retention of the status of worker shall require the training to be related to the previous employment.

4.  By way of derogation from paragraphs 1(d) and 2 above, only the spouse, the registered partner provided for in Article 2(2)(b) and dependent children shall have the right of residence as family members of a Union citizen meeting the conditions under 1(c) above. Article 3(2) shall apply to his/her dependent direct relatives in the ascending lines and those of his/her spouse or registered partner.



https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:02004L0038-20110616

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 07:36:40 AM

From your link...

The resulting estimates suggested that the net fiscal impact of immigrants was negative (-£1 billion for 1999-2000 and -£5 billion for 2003-2004). Alternative estimates allocating all children of mixed couples to the immigrant group show the fiscal cost of migrants to be much higher (around -£3.8 billion in 1999-2000).

Does that refer to immigrants as a whole, or to EU ones?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2019, 08:23:01 AM

Just read something interesting.  The 15 year old school girl who ran away to play with ISIS is a native of Tower Hamlets and has a right to expect Tower Hamlets to house and support her.
Well, so am I.  I was born there, albeit when it was still Stepney.  So if I get kicked out of France due to Brexit then Tower Hamlets will have to house and support me.
So that's all right then.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 17, 2019, 08:24:13 AM
Whatever the veracity of the figures Brexit is not going to stop immigration, if anything it will grow post Brexit if the article I posted earlier is correct.

Brexit would allow our government to decide who gets which benefits, when and why. At the moment EU law forces us to pay child benefits and child tax credits for children who have never set foot in this country. A figure of up to £36 million oer year has been quoted. Two thirds of that money goes to Poland.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/23/child-benefit-payments-outside-uk

There are also 900,000 Polish-born people living in the UK. Those with children will also get the benefits, along with healthcare, education ad social housing.. A total of 900,000 UK citizens live long-term in other EU countries and I'm pretty sure they're not in Poland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_United_Kingdom

So the UK appears to be saving Poland a lot of money, as are other prosperous EU countries. I don't have a problem with these arrangements if;

The UK really does need these people to work here.
The UK didn't keep using 'austerity' as a reason for making the poor poorer.
 

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 08:24:53 AM
Another Brexiteer hypocrite and scoundrel


“Britain’s richest man, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, who was knighted less than a year ago for his services to business and investment, has been planning to avoid up to £4bn in tax after switching his home and his fortune to Monaco.

The Sunday Times can disclose that the prominent Brexiteer, who built up the chemicals giant Ineos, has been working with the accountant PwC on the tax avoidance plan. This would see him and senior executives Andy Currie and John Reece legally share between £1bn and £10bn tax-free, depriving the Treasury of between £400m and £4bn”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 08:29:47 AM
Just read something interesting.  The 15 year old school girl who ran away to play with ISIS is a native of Tower Hamlets and has a right to expect Tower Hamlets to house and support her.
Well, so am I.  I was born there, albeit when it was still Stepney.  So if I get kicked out of France due to Brexit then Tower Hamlets will have to house and support me.
So that's all right then.
I think moving from your idyll in France to Tower Hamlets may come as a nasty shock to the system but good to know you have options...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 08:33:19 AM
Brexit would allow our government to decide who gets which benefits, when and why. At the moment EU law forces us to pay child benefits and child tax credits for children who have never set foot in this country. A figure of up to £36 million oer year has been quoted. Two thirds of that money goes to Poland.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/23/child-benefit-payments-outside-uk

There are also 900,000 Polish-born people living in the UK. Those with children will also get the benefits, along with healthcare, education ad social housing.. A total of 900,000 UK citizens live long-term in other EU countries and I'm pretty sure they're not in Poland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_United_Kingdom

So the UK appears to be saving Poland a lot of money, as are other prosperous EU countries. I don't have a problem with these arrangements if;

The UK really does need these people to work here.
The UK didn't keep using 'austerity' as a reason for making the poor poorer.
 
As Carana has already pointed out, immigrants from the EU already more than pay for themselves (to the tune of £15 billion) so what’s the problem?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2019, 08:36:14 AM
I think moving from your idyll in France to Tower Hamlets may come as a nasty shock to the system but good to know you have options...

I was thinking more of the laughs I would have getting it implemented.  But then I could sub let the house or flat for twice the rent and then sneak back into France unnoticed and just keep my head down.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 08:43:50 AM
How accurate are the figures...


CHARITYFull Fact
MENU
Home Europe EU immigration
EU immigration to the UK: what the National Insurance numbers reveal
Published: 12th May 2016

Earlier this year, there was controversy over whether our immigration estimates have been missing large numbers of immigrants from the rest of the EU, with some outlets accusing officials of a “cover up”.

Routine immigration estimates in February suggested around 257,000 nationals from other EU countries migrated to the UK in the year to September 2015.

But another set of figures showed that 655,000 National Insurance (NI) numbers had been issued to EU nationals over the same period. NI numbers are allocated to foreign nationals looking to work or claim benefits in the UK.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

What's not clear is which country (home or host) is responsible.

I haven't looked into the "job-seeker" benefit system.

However, at least in terms of medical insurance, if I were to move to France without a job, I'd have to prove that I already had medical coverage.

What normally happens, AFAIK, is that you register with your host country, you get the equivalent of an NHS card, and your home country reimburses any cost.

I had read that an EU citizen could claim e.g. unemployment benefit due by the home country, which is in reality  transferred to the host one. I'm not 100% certain of that, but I think that was the gist of what I'd read.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 08:44:47 AM
I was thinking more of the laughs I would have getting it implemented.  But then I could sub let the house or flat for twice the rent and then sneak back into France unnoticed and just keep my head down.
Haha, good luck with that one!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2019, 08:45:13 AM
Another Brexiteer hypocrite and scoundrel


“Britain’s richest man, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, who was knighted less than a year ago for his services to business and investment, has been planning to avoid up to £4bn in tax after switching his home and his fortune to Monaco.

The Sunday Times can disclose that the prominent Brexiteer, who built up the chemicals giant Ineos, has been working with the accountant PwC on the tax avoidance plan. This would see him and senior executives Andy Currie and John Reece legally share between £1bn and £10bn tax-free, depriving the Treasury of between £400m and £4bn”.

Don't we actually need more hypocrites and scoudrels like him... How many jobs has he created....how many people iwe their livlihood to his company
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 17, 2019, 08:50:10 AM
Another Brexiteer hypocrite and scoundrel


“Britain’s richest man, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, who was knighted less than a year ago for his services to business and investment, has been planning to avoid up to £4bn in tax after switching his home and his fortune to Monaco.

The Sunday Times can disclose that the prominent Brexiteer, who built up the chemicals giant Ineos, has been working with the accountant PwC on the tax avoidance plan. This would see him and senior executives Andy Currie and John Reece legally share between £1bn and £10bn tax-free, depriving the Treasury of between £400m and £4bn”.

He still has the right to an opinion, just like anyone else who uses tax avoidance measures.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 08:57:09 AM
Brexit partly responsible for the collapse of FlyBmi

A Flybmi spokesman said: "It is with a heavy heart that we have made this unavoidable announcement.
"The airline has faced several difficulties, including recent spikes in fuel and carbon costs, the latter arising from the EU's recent decision to exclude UK airlines from full participation in the Emissions Trading Scheme.
"Current trading and future prospects have also been seriously affected by the uncertainty created by the Brexit process, which has led to our inability to secure valuable flying contracts in Europe.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 08:57:56 AM
He still has the right to an opinion, just like anyone else who uses tax avoidance measures.
So have I - he’s a hypocrite and scoundrel IMO. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 09:01:36 AM
Don't we actually need more hypocrites and scoudrels like him... How many jobs has he created....how many people iwe their livlihood to his company
Perhaps we should let him carry on being based in his beloved post-Brexit Britain by letting him off paying any taxes at all as a mark of the country’s gratitude.  Same goes for all Brexit businessmen, eh?

The phrase “rats deserting a sinking ship” springs to mind...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2019, 09:04:58 AM
Perhaps we should let him carry on being based in his beloved post-Brexit Britain by letting him off paying any taxes at all as a mark of the country’s gratitude.  Same goes for all Brexit businessmen, eh?
No he should abide by the rules that apply to everyone.... Entrepreneurs should be encouraged
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 09:05:44 AM
Another Brexiteer hypocrite and scoundrel


“Britain’s richest man, Sir Jim Ratcliffe, who was knighted less than a year ago for his services to business and investment, has been planning to avoid up to £4bn in tax after switching his home and his fortune to Monaco.

The Sunday Times can disclose that the prominent Brexiteer, who built up the chemicals giant Ineos, has been working with the accountant PwC on the tax avoidance plan. This would see him and senior executives Andy Currie and John Reece legally share between £1bn and £10bn tax-free, depriving the Treasury of between £400m and £4bn”.

Now that's interesting. I posted the bbcqt clip of a small businesswoman who was going to have to move some of ther operations out of the country, and JRM's "answer" was that Ineo found EU regulations too strict. Ineo produces chemicals... and yes, EU regulations, which the UK contributed to making, are hopefully strict.

But there's also the crack-down on tax avoidance...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 09:08:19 AM
No he should abide by the rules that apply to everyone.... Entrepreneurs should be encouraged
How would it be for the country if all successful entrepreneurs and business people followed his (perfectly legal) example and relocated their tax affairs to Monaco or elsewhere? 
Do you seriously not see anything at all hypocritical in his decision or particularly fishy in the timing of his decision? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 17, 2019, 09:11:19 AM
So have I - he’s a hypocrite and scoundrel IMO.

So what? The sincere and saintly may be wtong and he may be right; his character isn't relevant.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 09:15:16 AM
So what? The sincere and saintly may be wtong and he may be right; his character isn't relevant.
I think it is, in the same way you get all emosh about the “hypocrites and scoundrels” amongst our MPs.  You can’t have it both ways in this discussion, IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 09:17:53 AM
So what? The sincere and saintly may be wtong and he may be right; his character isn't relevant.
His character may not be relevant but his actions are, and they stink to high heaven, IMO. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2019, 09:18:06 AM
What's not clear is which country (home or host) is responsible.

I haven't looked into the "job-seeker" benefit system.

However, at least in terms of medical insurance, if I were to move to France without a job, I'd have to prove that I already had medical coverage.

What normally happens, AFAIK, is that you register with your host country, you get the equivalent of an NHS card, and your home country reimburses any cost.

I had read that an EU citizen could claim e.g. unemployment benefit due by the home country, which is in reality  transferred to the host one. I'm not 100% certain of that, but I think that was the gist of what I'd read.

The UK reimburses 80%.  You have to pay insurance for the remaining 20%.  So far, I have cost The UK nothing at all.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2019, 09:27:08 AM
Perhaps we should let him carry on being based in his beloved post-Brexit Britain by letting him off paying any taxes at all as a mark of the country’s gratitude.  Same goes for all Brexit businessmen, eh?

The phrase “rats deserting a sinking ship” springs to mind...

The rats as far as I am concerned are those who have moved their production to eastern europe at the cost of UK jobs........he is stil providing a livlihood for UK citizens...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 09:52:15 AM
It seems that Leavers disagree with the concept of freedom of movement for EU nationals if they are ordinary working men and women but applaud it if they are super rich.  I like to think that if I had voted Leave I would not blindly support the actions of every prominent Brexiteer just for the sake of it. What Brexit supporting Dyson and the appropriately named Ratcliffe  have done by relocating their billions to Singapore and Morocco is signallied their contempt for the working men and women in this country whose lives will IMO be made poorer as a result of the agendas they have been championing.  By all means go, it’s a free world (well to those who can afford it) but don’t preach to the rest of us about the costs to the country of freedom of movement and then take your billions out of the country.  It’s deeply hypocritical IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2019, 09:57:50 AM
It seems that Leavers disagree with the concept of freedom of movement for EU nationals if they are ordinary working men and women but applaud it if they are super rich.  I like to think that if I had voted Leave I would not blindly support the actions of every prominent Brexiteer just for the sake of it. What Brexit supporting Dyson and the appropriately named Ratcliffe  have done by relocating their billions to Singapore and Morocco is signallied their contempt for the working men and women in this country whose lives will IMO be made poorer as a result of the agendas they have been championing.  By all means go, it’s a free world (well to those who can afford it) but don’t preach to the rest of us about the costs to the country of freedom of movement and then take your billions out of the country.  It’s deeply hypocritical IMO.
It's quite simple.... We need entrepreneurs who create jobs for working people... We don't need Romanian Big Issue sellers, who seem to have forced UK citizens out.... And we don't need Albanian gangsters... Posing as Kosovans
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 10:20:34 AM
It's quite simple.... We need entrepreneurs who create jobs for working people... We don't need Romanian Big Issue sellers, who seem to have forced UK citizens out.... And we don't need Albanian gangsters... Posing as Kosovans

What's a "big issue seller"?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 10:29:13 AM
Brexit would allow our government to decide who gets which benefits, when and why. At the moment EU law forces us to pay child benefits and child tax credits for children who have never set foot in this country. A figure of up to £36 million oer year has been quoted. Two thirds of that money goes to Poland.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/23/child-benefit-payments-outside-uk

There are also 900,000 Polish-born people living in the UK. Those with children will also get the benefits, along with healthcare, education ad social housing.. A total of 900,000 UK citizens live long-term in other EU countries and I'm pretty sure they're not in Poland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_the_United_Kingdom

So the UK appears to be saving Poland a lot of money, as are other prosperous EU countries. I don't have a problem with these arrangements if;

The UK really does need these people to work here.
The UK didn't keep using 'austerity' as a reason for making the poor poorer.
 

Snipped from the first article.

The Treasury defended the overseas payments, saying that they were obliged under European law, and pointed out that claims could only be made if at least one parent was working in the UK and paying National Insurance."These payments make up less than 0.5% of child benefit awards," added a Treasury spokesman.

In response, Patel said the EU law should be challenged. "This is about the sustainability of our welfare state and benefits system," she added.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 10:33:44 AM
It's quite simple.... We need entrepreneurs who create jobs for working people... We don't need Romanian Big Issue sellers, who seem to have forced UK citizens out.... And we don't need Albanian gangsters... Posing as Kosovans
Those bloody Romanians coming over here and forcing UK Big Issue sellers out of a job!!  Of course we don’t need or want criminals of any nationality over here, is it your opinion that the majority of EU immigration is made up of Albanian and Romanian gangsters, and what makes you think anything will change post Brexit?  Furthermore, yes we need entrepreneurs who create jobs for working people but does it matter what nationality those entrepreneurs are and should we not expect those that champion Britain and who campaign against freedom of movement to put their money where their mouths are and pay their taxes in the country they hold so dear?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 10:35:52 AM
It's quite simple.... We need entrepreneurs who create jobs for working people... We don't need Romanian Big Issue sellers, who seem to have forced UK citizens out.... And we don't need Albanian gangsters... Posing as Kosovans

Many entrepreneurs sell overseas as well as to the domestic market, and the relatively hassle-free EU market is just next door.

If the UK leaves with no deal, how will that improve the situation?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 10:54:26 AM
I happen to think that Lord Sugar has done an awful lot to stimulate entrepreneurship in the UK.

His view on Brexit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BMRq96sAwk
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 17, 2019, 11:09:14 AM
I think it is, in the same way you get all emosh about the “hypocrites and scoundrels” amongst our MPs.  You can’t have it both ways in this discussion, IMO.

MP's can have any opinion they like about Brexit. What I object to is them acting to stop the people's democratic choice from being implemented.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 11:13:44 AM
In response, Patel said the EU law should be challenged. "This is about the sustainability of our welfare state and benefits system," she added.

That argument is like saying that I got a £60 parking fine, but at least I didn't pay the 50p meter.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 11:18:56 AM
MP's can have any opinion they like about Brexit. What I object to is them acting to stop the people's democratic choice from being implemented.

We're going around in as many circles as the government. LOL

What's democratic about a vote in which people weren't presented with all the consequences? And, in fact, were deliberately lied to? And in which an as yet undefined number of overseas UK citizens were even able to vote, even though they will also be directly affected?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 11:19:56 AM
MP's can have any opinion they like about Brexit. What I object to is them acting to stop the people's democratic choice from being implemented.
You accused them all of a lack of pride and integrity, is that not a slur on their collective characters?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 17, 2019, 11:21:45 AM
Snipped from the first article.

The Treasury defended the overseas payments, saying that they were obliged under European law, and pointed out that claims could only be made if at least one parent was working in the UK and paying National Insurance."These payments make up less than 0.5% of child benefit awards," added a Treasury spokesman.

In response, Patel said the EU law should be challenged. "This is about the sustainability of our welfare state and benefits system," she added.


Healthcare costs;

(https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/Viral_post.png)

https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 11:27:07 AM
Healthcare costs;

(https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/Viral_post.png)

https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/
Isn’t that because of the large number of OAP Brits in Europe by comparison to older EU nationals in the UK?  Also, accrding to the link because of the inefficient NHS failing to recover all monies it is due from the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 11:33:24 AM
In 2015:
The founder of chemicals giant Ineos said: "I think the UK would be perfectly successful as a standalone country, part of the European marketplace like Norway and Switzerland but without the expensive EU bureaucracy.
So Norway-style was acceptable then, but appears no longer to be so, why is that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2019, 11:34:05 AM
Many entrepreneurs sell overseas as well as to the domestic market, and the relatively hassle-free EU market is just next door.

If the UK leaves with no deal, how will that improve the situation?
It all depends on how beneficial the UKs continued membership is... Has that question really been answered
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 11:42:43 AM
So Sir Jim is one of those Brexit supporters who doesn’t believe no deal is better than a bad deal
“Chemicals giant INEOS has backed the Government's proposed EU withdrawal agreement - and warned a no-deal Brexit would involve "significant risk" to its business”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 11:47:57 AM
Healthcare costs;

(https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/Viral_post.png)

https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/

I'd love to put my hands on an article about this, but it would take me ages to find it.

From memory, the issue was about recuperating the money from various countries. The UK apparently isn't quite up to date on making the system function. It works elsewhere, so what's the problem? A lack of investment?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 11:51:38 AM
So Sir Jim is one of those Brexit supporters who doesn’t believe no deal is better than a bad deal
“Chemicals giant INEOS has backed the Government's proposed EU withdrawal agreement - and warned a no-deal Brexit would involve "significant risk" to its business”.


I find it an amazing coincidence how many prominent Brexiteers have connections to Trump and the US mega industries.

Can't possibly think why...

It couldn't possibly be about the standards that the UK would have to lower, surely?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 11:57:59 AM
A big issue at the moment is whether the NHS should be privatised (outsourced to US corporations being one possibility, apparently) and whether the cap on the price that the NHS can / is willing to pay for medication and supplies should be lifted.

Anyone who's followed what's been going on in the US re health care should know, and those who haven't should be paying atttention... IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 12:15:27 PM

I find it an amazing coincidence how many prominent Brexiteers have connections to Trump and the US mega industries.

Can't possibly think why...

It couldn't possibly be about the standards that the UK would have to lower, surely?
Sir Jim is also a big fan of fracking.  I don't know if this is relevant or not...

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/eu-referendum-brexit-will-lead-to-fracking-free-for-all-as-environmental-regulation-will-be-up-for-a7093646.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 12:18:13 PM
Sir Jim is also a big fan of fracking.  I don't know if this is relevant or not...

Just waiting for "clean" coal / chemicals / oil extraction / food to pop up...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 12:19:47 PM
Just waiting for "clean" coal / chemicals / oil extraction / food to pop up...
He is also very anti EU "Green" taxes.  Of course I'm sure his position on Brexit is entirely altruistic....  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 12:21:17 PM
In 2015:
The founder of chemicals giant Ineos said: "I think the UK would be perfectly successful as a standalone country, part of the European marketplace like Norway and Switzerland but without the expensive EU bureaucracy.
So Norway-style was acceptable then, but appears no longer to be so, why is that?

All about the "Norway option"... Except that Norway doesn't actually want the UK to join EFTA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 12:26:42 PM
He is also very anti EU "Green" taxes.  Of course I'm sure his position on Brexit is entirely altruistic....  @)(++(*

No doubt it's totally altruistic, perish the thought that the interests of certain prominent Brexiteers may lay elsewhere...

I'm old enough to remember a board game called "Risk"...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 12:41:05 PM
I'd love to know what it is that drives certain of the the world's richest people to get even richer at the expense of the environment.  On the one hand they are leaving untold vast wealth to their descendants, on the other hand what is vast wealth good for on a dying or dead planet?  I suppose they'll be among the last of the species to go. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 12:42:22 PM
Isn’t that because of the large number of OAP Brits in Europe by comparison to older EU nationals in the UK?  Also, accrding to the link because of the inefficient NHS failing to recover all monies it is due from the EU.

This may have been what I was thinking of.


Countries reimburse each other for the costs of providing health services

"These figures are broadly correct. The discrepancy is partly due to how the NHS recoups the money it is owed, but also partly because the costs of treating UK citizens abroad are high in comparison to the costs of treating European citizens in the UK."

It's not quite clear what "abroad" covers. Just in the EU or further afield?

I didn't invent it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 12:54:55 PM
I'd love to know what it is that drives certain of the the world's richest people to get even richer at the expense of the environment.  On the one hand they are leaving untold vast wealth to their descendants, on the other hand what is vast wealth good for on a dying or dead planet?  I suppose they'll be among the last of the species to go.

I suppose that some people really do believe that climate change is a hoax, in much the same way as certain types of people will be inclined to believe any conspiracy theory. "Deep state", etc.

Cambridge Analytica's strategy was to stoke up fear / anger versus facts. And Brexit was the success story to get the US contract... which has landed the US with trying to deal with Trump. But that's another story.

At the end of the day, there are many of the same actors involved.



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 01:06:43 PM
I'd love to know what it is that drives certain of the the world's richest people to get even richer at the expense of the environment.  On the one hand they are leaving untold vast wealth to their descendants, on the other hand what is vast wealth good for on a dying or dead planet?  I suppose they'll be among the last of the species to go.

Good question, no answers.

Power?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 01:11:12 PM
It all depends on how beneficial the UKs continued membership is... Has that question really been answered

Why should the UK face the very real impact of crashing out before that question has been answered?


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 01:18:01 PM
Countries reimburse each other for the costs of providing health services

The UK Government reimburses other European Economic Area countries and Switzerland for the cost of providing treatment to people it is responsible for under European Union law, irrespective of nationality.

In the same way, other EEA countries and Switzerland reimburse the UK for the cost of the NHS providing treatment to people they are responsible for under EU law, including UK nationals insured in another EEA country or Switzerland.

The European Economic Area is the 28 European Union countries, plus Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein. Switzerland is not a member of the EU or the EEA, but is closely tied to these countries through a series of treaties.
https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/

That's the general idea. When anti-EU tabloids cry scandal about EU citizens being treated for free in the UK... they never mention the agreements. Why not?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 01:54:59 PM
I'd love to know what it is that drives certain of the the world's richest people to get even richer at the expense of the environment.  On the one hand they are leaving untold vast wealth to their descendants, on the other hand what is vast wealth good for on a dying or dead planet?  I suppose they'll be among the last of the species to go.

What rich are you referring to?  the Albanian , Russian, Romanin drug cartels who operate here as  erm Business men.  or do you differenciate rich people according to birth place?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 02:02:05 PM
This may have been what I was thinking of.


Countries reimburse each other for the costs of providing health services

"These figures are broadly correct. The discrepancy is partly due to how the NHS recoups the money it is owed, but also partly because the costs of treating UK citizens abroad are high in comparison to the costs of treating European citizens in the UK."

It's not quite clear what "abroad" covers. Just in the EU or further afield?

I didn't invent it.

You didn't? ok how about you show us in real time real comparisons.


"That's the general idea. When anti-EU tabloids cry scandal about EU citizens being treated for free in the UK... they never mention the agreements. Why not?"

because no UK citizens have come forward in their thousands claiming they had cheaper better treatment else where. So perhaps an agreement is in place but is it being used the same way as our health service eg sex augmentation of children- abortions being used as contraception in some cultures, removal of tatoos etc.  the NHS is supposed to be for SICK people.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2019, 02:05:54 PM
What rich are you referring to?  the Albanian , Russian, Romanin drug cartels who operate here as  erm Business men.  or do you differenciate rich people according to birth place?

Que?  This comment has no value.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 02:16:34 PM
I suppose that some people really do believe that climate change is a hoax, in much the same way as certain types of people will be inclined to believe any conspiracy theory. "Deep state", etc.

Cambridge Analytica's strategy was to stoke up fear / anger versus facts. And Brexit was the success story to get the US contract... which has landed the US with trying to deal with Trump. But that's another story.

At the end of the day, there are many of the same actors involved.

Global warming  -blaming humans  and using this as an excuse to rape the workers of more money- to protect us from ourselves  changed its name to climate change. how quaint.

History lesson #1  There was an ICE age on planet earth. There were no humans at that time. the planet started to warm up over many millenia-
#2  the ice melted and new life forms  evolved from bacteria ...

Ok with no human input  to cause this phenomenon-perhaps you and your 'believers' can explain this one? cs gasses, air travel?

now here is another conundrem for you- the OZONE layer has not been measured for millions of years so just because it was measured it has nothing to compare it to as no data has been avaliable .

I do support recycling and hate waste I also hate zoos and circuses which use animals to 'perform'. I am also an advocate of geting rid of plastic packaging etc. But Climate change is just an absolute con!  The money pouring into this could feed many starving on  the planet but people in smart offices in smart suits with powerpoint presentatins spewing non sence to those who want a bandwagon to jump on.

PS the green party are a minority and should be treated as such.  a little voice.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 02:17:47 PM
What rich are you referring to?  the Albanian , Russian, Romanin drug cartels who operate here as  erm Business men.  or do you differenciate rich people according to birth place?

Albania isn't a member of the EU, the last time I checked.

The UK will no longer be a member of Europol. If you detain a suspect of a terrorist attack,  but you are no longer have quck access to databases ... What  happens? Let them go?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 02:19:21 PM
Que?  This comment has no value.


I was merely trying to establish which rich people VS was  talking about. as he has no qualms about those people coming here to make money then complains about them when they become rich...

confused.co.uk  lol
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 02:23:00 PM
Albania isn't a member of the EU, the last time I checked.

The UK will no longer be a member of Europol. If you detain a suspect of a terrorist attack,  but you no longer have quck access to databases ... What  happens? Let them go?

You didn't need to check Carana. I didn't say it was a member of the EU. :)

which does give a good reason as to why they are here, but anyways, you have absolutely no written assurance that there will not be intellegence collaboration regarding Europe as a continent, and terrorist states/threats.  Best to stop with the scare mongering already eh?

Oh and ...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1088222/brexit-news-project-fear-economy-economists-for-free-trade
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 02:30:31 PM
You didn't need to check Carana. I didn't say it was a member of the EU. :)

which does give a good reason as to why they are here, but anyways you have absolutely no written assurance that there will not be collaboration regarding Europe as a continent and terrorist states/theeats.  Best to stop with the scare mongering eh?

Oh and ...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1088222/brexit-news-project-fear-economy-economists-for-free-trade


The UK advisories re no-brexit are unlikely to appear in the Express.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 02:32:08 PM

I find it an amazing coincidence how many prominent Brexiteers have connections to Trump and the US mega industries.

Can't possibly think why...

It couldn't possibly be about the standards that the UK would have to lower, surely?

You mean like use Chinese standards? lower than the lowest. and yet we trust them to build our Nuclear power plants.. hmm- This was the power plants that labour governments said would never happen we were done with this energy provider, but then change of mind. GB and member of his family who has connections to the French part of the Nuclear power plant being build here in the UK- is a mere coincidence! ^*&&
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 02:39:51 PM
You mean like use Chinese standards? lower than the lowest. and yet we trust them to build our Nuclear power plants.. hmm- This was the power plants that labour governments said would never happen we were done with this energy provider, but then change of mind. GB and member of his family who has connections to the French part of the Nuclear power plant being build here in the UK- is a mere coincidence! ^*&&

What are the existing EU standards and which do you think should be abolished?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2019, 02:41:15 PM
I am hard pushed to understand the value of comments from people who do not live in The EU and don't actually have any knowledge.  And don't appear to be interested in anything I have to say.

I live here, and all is well.  The Euro has never been under threat, and only The Pound has been a problem.

Perhaps The EU minds that Britain won't be paying a ridiculous amount of money in exchange for sweet ef all at all in future.  But The EU won't collapse for that.

Most of you have no idea.  France deals with The EU.  Don't ask me to explain about my bloody Fosse Septique.  France has already admitted that they can't force me to replace my Fosse Septique despite some directive from Brussels.  I just happen to be hard core, and don't get fazed.

However, this has nothing to do with anything.

And then Charlotte, the demented and blind Pug fell in the shit tank, poor little soul, because they weren't watching what they were doing when they invaded my garden without my permission.

But this poor man up to his elbows in shit while he hoiked her out was recompense enough.

Charlotte survived.  I nearly had a heart attack.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 02:45:26 PM
Those bloody Romanians coming over here and forcing UK Big Issue sellers out of a job!!  Of course we don’t need or want criminals of any nationality over here, is it your opinion that the majority of EU immigration is made up of Albanian and Romanian gangsters, and what makes you think anything will change post Brexit?  Furthermore, yes we need entrepreneurs who create jobs for working people but does it matter what nationality those entrepreneurs are and should we not expect those that champion Britain and who campaign against freedom of movement to put their money where their mouths are and pay their taxes in the country they hold so dear?

Selling the big issue is NOT a proper job.  there would be no impact on the community if it was banned for any reason so lets keep thjis real.

The big issue was  the brainchild  founded by John Bird and Gordon Roddick in September 1991. It was designed to hel[p people get off the streets and give them a good start here in the UK. well then what happened? more homeless people came over and it became a 'job' which meant these people had a national insurance number to claim tax credits and all sorts. child minding?  and they were now eligable for social housing. Which is in a state  because of lack of social housing. therefore, the housing situation got much worse and selling the big issue for John and Gordon made them millionaires- hey whood  dah thunk it.  them with a  concience and alll that. How many cheap resonably priced social housing have they provided for from their VAST profit, those who are born in the UK and do not have criminal convictions are drug users and abusers?.... hmmm anyone got figures?

This is the big issue :the more people who come here to sell the big issue because they are homeless are adding to the bloody Homeless problem.  Duh
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 02:46:34 PM

The UK advisories re no-brexit are unlikely to appear in the Express.


can you please add IMO to your posts as you seem to be speaking as an authority rather than a guess merchant.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2019, 02:50:56 PM
Selling the big issue is NOT a proper job.  there would be no impact on the community if it was banned for any reason so lets keep thjis real.

The big issue was  the brainchild  founded by John Bird and Gordon Roddick in September 1991. It was designed to hel[p people get off the streets and give them a good start here in the UK. well then what happened? more homeless people came over and it became a 'job' which meant these people had a national insurance number to claim tax credits and all sorts. child minding?  and they were now eligable for social housing. Which is in a state  because of lack of social housing. therefore, the housing situation got much worse and selling the big issue for John and Gordon made them millionaires- hey whood  dah thunk it.  them with a  concience and alll that. How many cheap resonably priced social housing have they provided for from their VAST profit, those who are born in the UK and do not have criminal convictions are drug users and abusers?.... hmmm anyone got figures?

This is the big issue :the more people who come here to sell the big issue because they are homeless are adding to the bloody Homeless problem.  Duh

Just cut the Hmmm.  This is Goading, and very unpleasant.  And I will be deleting any comment that includes this, in future.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 02:53:56 PM
I am hard pushed to understand the value of comments from people who do not live in The EU and don't actually have any knowledge.  And don't appear to be interested in anything I have to say.

I live here, and all is well.  The Euro has never been under threat, and only The Pound has been a problem.

Perhaps The EU minds that Britain won't be paying a ridiculous amount of money in exchange for sweet ef all at all in future.  But The EU won't collapse for that.

Most of you have no idea.  France deals with The EU.  Don't ask me to explain about my bloody Fosse Septique.  France has already admitted that they can't force me to replace my Fosse Septique despite some directive from Brussels.  I just happen to be hard core, and don't get fazed.

However, this has nothing to do with anything.

And then Charlotte, the demented and blind Pug fell in the shit tank, poor little soul, because they weren't watching what they were doing when they invaded my garden without my permission.

But this poor man up to his elbows in shit while he hoiked her out was recompense enough.

Charlotte survived.  I nearly had a heart attack.


Oh Poor Charlotte, poor guy...


I think you hit the nail on the head there Eleanor.  We in the UK were treating directives as laws which much be obeyed due to out fked up beaurocrat, and jobs worths. The bleeding hearts of the left and greens have turned us into a bunch of crybabies who weep and whail at any sad story sent to side blind us. Geting out of the EU will remove this group of people from have such responsibility they have been under skilled to cope with.

Yeahhhhhhh!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 02:55:03 PM
Just cut the Hmmm.  This is Goading, and very unpleasant.  And I will be deleting any comment that includes this, in future.


hmmmm is a thinking emoji... cut away.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 03:00:03 PM
What are the existing EU standards and which do you think should be abolished?

Are you suggesting I go through all EU standards one by one. Perhaps it would help if I reminded you that the UK before EU had it's own standards  like the bulldog and kyte marks?  You seem to be of the impression that the UK was a third world country before the Common Market- which was the beginning of the EU.

 How you make me laugh!

You can explain how siding with Trump will lower standards are you suggest.

You and others have absolutely no idea what will happen after we leave.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2019, 03:11:29 PM
Selling the big issue is NOT a proper job.  there would be no impact on the community if it was banned for any reason so lets keep thjis real.

The big issue was  the brainchild  founded by John Bird and Gordon Roddick in September 1991. It was designed to hel[p people get off the streets and give them a good start here in the UK. well then what happened? more homeless people came over and it became a 'job' which meant these people had a national insurance number to claim tax credits and all sorts. child minding?  and they were now eligable for social housing. Which is in a state  because of lack of social housing. therefore, the housing situation got much worse and selling the big issue for John and Gordon made them millionaires- hey whood  dah thunk it.  them with a  concience and alll that. How many cheap resonably priced social housing have they provided for from their VAST profit, those who are born in the UK and do not have criminal convictions are drug users and abusers?.... hmmm anyone got figures?

This is the big issue :the more people who come here to sell the big issue because they are homeless are adding to the bloody Homeless problem.  Duh

by selling the big issue its possible to be classed as self employed and therefore opens the door to benefits
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2019, 03:19:15 PM

Oh Poor Charlotte, poor guy...


I think you hit the nail on the head there Eleanor.  We in the UK were treating directives as laws which much be obeyed due to out fked up beaurocrat, and jobs worths. The bleeding hearts of the left and greens have turned us into a bunch of crybabies who weep and whail at any sad story sent to side blind us. Geting out of the EU will remove this group of people from have such responsibility they have been under skilled to cope with.

Yeahhhhhhh!

You got that right, Mistaken.  Brussels don't actually have a Law Abiding Mandate.  Most people don't realise this.  While Britain falls over itself to comply with something that has no justification in Law.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2019, 03:20:49 PM

hmmmm is a thinking emoji... cut away.

I will.  You are not as daft as you pretend to be, so please stop doing this.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2019, 03:21:56 PM
Are you suggesting I go through all EU standards one by one. Perhaps it would help if I reminded you that the UK before EU had it's own standards  like the bulldog and kyte marks?  You seem to be of the impression that the UK was a third world country before the Common Market- which was the beginning of the EU.

 How you make me laugh!

You can explain how siding with Trump will lower standards are you suggest.

You and others have absolutely no idea what will happen after we leave.

Correct.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 03:27:41 PM
What rich are you referring to?  the Albanian , Russian, Romanin drug cartels who operate here as  erm Business men.  or do you differenciate rich people according to birth place?
I make no differentiation based on birth place.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 03:29:07 PM
I really don't understand how the UK could functon in the event of a no deal. Perrhaps others could enlighten me.

And no, Article 24 won't apply.

So what's the solution?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 03:29:35 PM

I was merely trying to establish which rich people VS was  talking about. as he has no qualms about those people coming here to make money then complains about them when they become rich...

confused.co.uk  lol
Talk about TOTALLY misrepresenting my views, well done  8@??)(
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 03:31:58 PM
Selling the big issue is NOT a proper job.  there would be no impact on the community if it was banned for any reason so lets keep thjis real.

The big issue was  the brainchild  founded by John Bird and Gordon Roddick in September 1991. It was designed to hel[p people get off the streets and give them a good start here in the UK. well then what happened? more homeless people came over and it became a 'job' which meant these people had a national insurance number to claim tax credits and all sorts. child minding?  and they were now eligable for social housing. Which is in a state  because of lack of social housing. therefore, the housing situation got much worse and selling the big issue for John and Gordon made them millionaires- hey whood  dah thunk it.  them with a  concience and alll that. How many cheap resonably priced social housing have they provided for from their VAST profit, those who are born in the UK and do not have criminal convictions are drug users and abusers?.... hmmm anyone got figures?

This is the big issue :the more people who come here to sell the big issue because they are homeless are adding to the bloody Homeless problem.  Duh
Ranty McRantface if full flow...  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 03:39:30 PM
by selling the big issue its possible to be classed as self employed and therefore opens the door to benefits

Indeed! And that is what started with these people getting child beneft for their 5 children living in(.....)(child beneft used to be paid only to the person whom the child stayed with-this was changed to acccommodate new comers leaving kids at home to come and do important work like selling Big Issue) again this was taken as advice from EU regarding freedom of movement/Work etc. with the' right to buy' these poor homeless migrants jumped queues and bought up social housing, becoming land and gentry now hahahahaha! we know how to shoot opurselves in the foot.
 You may call it enterprising, I call it theft and fraud to the detriment of hard working nurses /doctors/fireservice men and women who can't get housed near their work in London! - then have to pay congestion charges if they drive from outside!

It was one of the better ideas that in order to stay in this country to work people had to be wokring ino an industry which required skills and would earn over £35.000. enough to support themselves.  Selling big issue isn't an industry which benefits the counrty as a whole now is it? If those people went home they would not be homelss no need to sell the paper.  Win-Win situation.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on February 17, 2019, 03:44:04 PM

Oh Poor Charlotte, poor guy...


I think you hit the nail on the head there Eleanor.  We in the UK were treating directives as laws which much be obeyed due to out fked up beaurocrat, and jobs worths. The bleeding hearts of the left and greens have turned us into a bunch of crybabies who weep and whail at any sad story sent to side blind us. Geting out of the EU will remove this group of people from have such responsibility they have been under skilled to cope with.

Yeahhhhhhh!

The working time directive is a law
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 03:57:55 PM
I really don't understand how the UK could functon in the event of a no deal. Perrhaps others could enlighten me.

And no, Article 24 won't apply.

So what's the solution?

I don't think enlightening you is a priority for anyone.  Perhaps just do what we all should do and that is wait and see. We are not a back water, we have clout and power still on the global plain.  so try not to write us off yet ...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 04:02:03 PM
Ranty McRantface if full flow...  @)(++(*

Name calling?  really wow.  I am not a Mc - they are from Ireland. They say ignorance is bliss- how blissful you must be.

I did think name calling and insutls were not allowed. and those who complain the most are.."drum roll".VS and the skeptics.

 whood dah thunk it.


Mac's are Scottish  just in case you feel more insults coming forth. ^*&&
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 04:15:53 PM
Name calling?  really wow.  I am not a Mc - they are from Ireland. They say ignorance is bliss- how blissful you must be.

I did think name calling and insutls were not allowed. and those who complain the most are.."drum roll".VS and the skeptics.

 whood dah thunk it.


Mac's are Scottish  just in case you feel more insults coming forth. ^*&&
Very sorry to describe you as a Mc, I know it’s a beastly insult and I feel very ashamed.  8)><(
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 17, 2019, 04:17:27 PM
I really don't understand how the UK could functon in the event of a no deal. Perrhaps others could enlighten me.

And no, Article 24 won't apply.

So what's the solution?

Have you no faith in Britain?  God help us all, as He must have done when The War ended.

You see, those of you who have no real conception of what is going on, because you don't really know, are trying to frighten people like me.  Why do you do this?

You don't live in France, so how can you know how kind the French State is?  But then you aren't prepared to take a chance, are you.

Britain must do what The Referendum says.  But I am not taking my chances on that.  I no longer care anymore.
I won't be going anywhere near Britain.

I am just mortally disappointed by what vestiges of pride I thought might still exist.

You see, people like me who bailed out were so fed up with what had been done to us.  I was working pretty nearly 24/7  in some vain attempt to make my Small Business work.  It worked for seven years, but by then I was so exhausted that I couldn't even think anymore.

It was so much more easy to come here and cut the grass of of expats, for a price wasn't even known of in UK.

So don't tell me about entrepreneurs.   They are just people who take their chances.

Britain is looking stone cold dead to me at the moment.  And I don't care anymore.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 17, 2019, 05:14:42 PM
Very sorry to describe you as a Mc, I know it’s a beastly insult and I feel very ashamed.  8)><(

Attacking me as a person and not my posts shows you up.  I do hope a moderator comes and swipes your goading,bullying posts. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 17, 2019, 06:19:37 PM
Attacking me as a person and not my posts shows you up.  I do hope a moderator comes and swipes your goading,bullying posts.
How did I attack you “as a person” exactly?  Your post was a rant as so many of them are.  I made a humorous (obviously that’s subjective) reference to that by using the Boaty McBoatface meme as a means to taking the wind out of your sails.  I did not attack your person or your character so no need to be so sensitive and try and lighten up a bit, it’s not worth getting your blood pressure up over it, really.  As for bullying, I suggest you re-read some of your own posts directed at me. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 17, 2019, 06:23:34 PM
Very sorry to describe you as a Mc, I know it’s a beastly insult and I feel very ashamed.  8)><(


Mc is a shortened form of Mac.
Do a wee Google..
Neither one or t'other is particularly the perogative of the Scots or Irish.
So no insult at all.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 08:11:24 PM
Have you no faith in Britain?  God help us all, as He must have done when The War ended.

You see, those of you who have no real conception of what is going on, because you don't really know, are trying to frighten people like me.  Why do you do this?

You don't live in France, so how can you know how kind the French State is?  But then you aren't prepared to take a chance, are you.

Britain must do what The Referendum says.  But I am not taking my chances on that.  I no longer care anymore.
I won't be going anywhere near Britain.

I am just mortally disappointed by what vestiges of pride I thought might still exist.

You see, people like me who bailed out were so fed up with what had been done to us.  I was working pretty nearly 24/7  in some vain attempt to make my Small Business work.  It worked for seven years, but by then I was so exhausted that I couldn't even think anymore.

It was so much more easy to come here and cut the grass of of expats, for a price wasn't even known of in UK.

So don't tell me about entrepreneurs.   They are just people who take their chances.

Britain is looking stone cold dead to me at the moment.  And I don't care anymore.


I used to think that MPs had done thier homework and knew what they were talking about. Perhaps they do, locally, but I'm far less sure that they understood the consequences of Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 17, 2019, 08:41:12 PM
The EU, which until the end of March, has 73 UK MEPs to help shape EU laws.

As of 30 March, the UK will no longer sit at the table to vote.  It will therefore have to be a rule taker.

Is this a good idea?

ETA: typo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 07:45:06 AM
The final report of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport select committee’s 18-month investigation into disinformation and fake news accused Facebook of purposefully obstructing its inquiry and failing to tackle attempts by Russia to manipulate elections.

“Democracy is at risk from the malicious and relentless targeting of citizens with disinformation and personalised ‘dark adverts’ from unidentifiable sources, delivered through the major social media platforms we use every day,” warned the committee’s chairman, Damian Collins.

The report:

    Accuses Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook’s co-founder and chief executive, of contempt for parliament in refusing three separate demands for him to give evidence, instead sending junior employees unable to answer the committee’s questions.

    Warns British electoral law is unfit for purpose and vulnerable to interference by hostile foreign actors, including agents of the Russian government attempting to discredit democracy.

    Calls on the British government to establish an independent investigation into “foreign influence, disinformation, funding, voter manipulation and the sharing of data” in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, the 2016 EU referendum and the 2017 general election.

Labour moved quickly to endorse the committee’s findings, with the party’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, announcing: “Labour agrees with the committee’s ultimate conclusion – the era of self-regulation for tech companies must end immediately.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/18/facebook-fake-news-investigation-report-regulation-privacy-law-dcms
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 07:49:28 AM
Damian Collins, chairman of parliament’s inquiry into fake news, said it was “no surprise” that Kaiser was under scrutiny by Mueller because “her work connected her to WikiLeaks, Cambridge Analytica and [its parent company] SCL, the Trump campaign, Leave.EU and Arron Banks”.

He said it was now vital Britain had its own inquiry into foreign interference: “We should not be leaving this to the Americans.”

Tom Watson, the deputy leader of the Labour party, echoed Collins’s statement, saying: “This is the first evidence that a significant player in the Leave.EU campaign is of interested to the global Mueller inquiry. People will be bewildered that the British government has no interest in establishing the facts of what happened.”

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/17/brittany-kaiser-trump-russia-robert-mueller-cambridge-analytica?CMP=share_btn_tw
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 08:02:01 AM
Japan not overly impressed with Fox / Hunt letter re potential trade deal. They seemed to assume the current EU-Japan could simply be replicated by a cut-and-paste job.

https://www.ft.com/content/9cd62bde-32ba-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 18, 2019, 09:01:31 AM
The final report of the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport select committee’s 18-month investigation into disinformation and fake news accused Facebook of purposefully obstructing its inquiry and failing to tackle attempts by Russia to manipulate elections.

“Democracy is at risk from the malicious and relentless targeting of citizens with disinformation and personalised ‘dark adverts’ from unidentifiable sources, delivered through the major social media platforms we use every day,” warned the committee’s chairman, Damian Collins.

The report:

    Accuses Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook’s co-founder and chief executive, of contempt for parliament in refusing three separate demands for him to give evidence, instead sending junior employees unable to answer the committee’s questions.

    Warns British electoral law is unfit for purpose and vulnerable to interference by hostile foreign actors, including agents of the Russian government attempting to discredit democracy.

    Calls on the British government to establish an independent investigation into “foreign influence, disinformation, funding, voter manipulation and the sharing of data” in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, the 2016 EU referendum and the 2017 general election.

Labour moved quickly to endorse the committee’s findings, with the party’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, announcing: “Labour agrees with the committee’s ultimate conclusion – the era of self-regulation for tech companies must end immediately.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/18/facebook-fake-news-investigation-report-regulation-privacy-law-dcms

Quite amusing considering our MP's take it or leave it attitude to democracy.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 09:48:51 AM
The day after Carole Cadwalladr in the Observer revealed Special Counsel Robert Mueller has subpoenaed Brittany Kaiser, director of the now-defunct data company Cambridge Analytica who worked on Nigel Farage’s Leave EU campaign, the landmark parliamentary report provides yet more evidence that the Trump Campaign, the EU referendum and Russian interference are all closely linked.
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/02/18/explosive-uk-parliamentary-report-exposes-the-molten-core-of-the-trump-brexit-russia-scandal/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 18, 2019, 11:07:42 AM
The day after Carole Cadwalladr in the Observer revealed Special Counsel Robert Mueller has subpoenaed Brittany Kaiser, director of the now-defunct data company Cambridge Analytica who worked on Nigel Farage’s Leave EU campaign, the landmark parliamentary report provides yet more evidence that the Trump Campaign, the EU referendum and Russian interference are all closely linked.
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/02/18/explosive-uk-parliamentary-report-exposes-the-molten-core-of-the-trump-brexit-russia-scandal/

Have they got proof that British citizens voted for Brexit because they were influenced by 'fake news'?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 11:18:05 AM
Have they got proof that British citizens voted for Brexit because they were influenced by 'fake news'?
Obviously they were, you just have to look at the proven lies of the Leave campaign that some Leavers still trot out as reasons for why they voted Leave.  And on a general point, if fake news does not influence opinion then why does anyone invest money and time in it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 11:25:43 AM
Have they got proof that British citizens voted for Brexit because they were influenced by 'fake news'?

Not sure how the Committee could verify it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 11:29:00 AM
From the FT article:


Despite 18 months of talks, Japan and the UK have failed to make significant breakthroughs on a new trade deal.

The differences of position, which the Hunt/Fox letter acknowledges as “challenging issues”, centre around Japan’s refusal to accept a simple “cut and paste” of the terms of the EU-Japan agreement ratified last year.

Instead, its officials have been told to negotiate as they would any other trade accord, and to seek better terms from the UK than Japan won through its long haggle with the much larger EU.



Obviously.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 11:34:50 AM
From the FT article:


Despite 18 months of talks, Japan and the UK have failed to make significant breakthroughs on a new trade deal.

The differences of position, which the Hunt/Fox letter acknowledges as “challenging issues”, centre around Japan’s refusal to accept a simple “cut and paste” of the terms of the EU-Japan agreement ratified last year.

Instead, its officials have been told to negotiate as they would any other trade accord, and to seek better terms from the UK than Japan won through its long haggle with the much larger EU.



Obviously.
Never mind.  What's Japan got that we want anyway....?  We can make our own cars and sushi here thanks very much!!!  (Channelling Angelo there for a minute...)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 18, 2019, 12:10:32 PM
Never mind.  What's Japan got that we want anyway....?  We can make our own cars and sushi here thanks very much!!!  (Channelling Angelo there for a minute...)

It's crazy transporting cars halfway around the world when we could make even better ones here in the UK while taking advantage of the new green electric motor era.  Instead of giving billions away to the EU the government should be subsidising a national car and truck industry to build our own.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 12:13:42 PM
It's crazy transporting cars halfway around the world when we could make even better ones in the UK while taking advantage of the new green electric motor era.  Instead of giving billions away to the EU the government should be subsidising a national car and truck industry to build our own.

And where would all the parts come from that are currently assembled in UK plants?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 18, 2019, 12:23:38 PM
Have they got proof that British citizens voted for Brexit because they were influenced by 'fake news'?

Those who voted leave don't want to be governed by unelected foreigner bureaucrats and pay handsomely for the privilege.  They also don't want the UK overrun by illegals or foreigners who think that they can stay for ever just because they get a job.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 12:36:55 PM
Those who voted leave don't want to be governed by unelected foreigner bureaucrats and pay handsomely for the privilege.  They also don't want the UK overrun by illegals or foreigners who think that they can stay for ever just because they get a job.

- You do realise that the UK has co-equal 3rd highest number of MEPS?
- What are you saying: that tax-paying foreigners who make a positive contribution to the economy shouldn't be allowed to stay?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 12:41:09 PM
Did Farage ever win a seat in the UK?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 18, 2019, 12:50:05 PM
Those who voted leave don't want to be governed by unelected foreigner bureaucrats and pay handsomely for the privilege.  They also don't want the UK overrun by illegals or foreigners who think that they can stay for ever just because they get a job.

It's hardly surprising when the EU's free movement was forcing the UK to accept EU people. At the same time the government's austerity policies were reducing public services and benefits. If resources are scarce people won't want to share them.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 01:06:12 PM
One of my concerns is that poorer people on a diet of fish fingers and other cheap food are going to feel the pinch once tariffs kick in. It's not the millionaires who can swan off to wherever.

Birds Eye tells Brexiteers food price warnings are not ‘scaremongering’
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/birds-eye-tells-brexiteers-food-price-warnings-are-not-scaremongering-1-5896108
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 01:34:24 PM
Have they got proof that British citizens voted for Brexit because they were influenced by 'fake news'?

There is a clip floating around of Farage thanking Bannon and Breitbart.

There's also this re the Trump election.
https://twitter.com/JamieJBartlett/status/1097426116346703872

However, of the people I know personally, I don't think any are on FB - but do get the DM every day.

The main right-wing tabloids have been stoking fear and anger for decades, and for people who don't have time to read much else, the messages sink in, whether they're conscious of it or not.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 01:42:43 PM
For those scared, for whaever reason, at the idea of being dragged into a "European army", the UK would retain control of whether it was a good idea or not.


Cornwall for Europe #FBPE
‏ @Cornwall4EU

After tonight's excellent event in Penzance, we asked EU law specialist Professor Michael Dougan, about the frequent claim that remaining in the EU would mean getting involved in an "EU army". He explained that this is yet another Brexiter scare story.
https://twitter.com/Cornwall4EU/status/1096565609310183425
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Admin on February 18, 2019, 01:46:42 PM
For those scared, for whaever reason, at the idea of being dragged into a "European army", the UK would retain control of whether it was a good idea or not.


Cornwall for Europe #FBPE
‏ @Cornwall4EU

After tonight's excellent event in Penzance, we asked EU law specialist Professor Michael Dougan, about the frequent claim that remaining in the EU would mean getting involved in an "EU army". He explained that this is yet another Brexiter scare story.
https://twitter.com/Cornwall4EU/status/1096565609310183425

A non issue thankfully as we will be leaving the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 01:51:32 PM
I understand G-Unit's point about respecting democracy. Where I disagree is that the pro-Brexit politicians campaigning either didn't know what they were talking about or were deliberately fudging. Yet many must have voted on the basis of mis- / disinformation (the ones I know didn't have a single "fact" that was actually true). If people have been misled / manipulated into voting a certain way, is that the democratic "will of the people", or are the people simply useful idiots for an unspecified agenda?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 01:52:23 PM
A non issue thankfully as we will be leaving the EU.

It was a non-issue to begin with.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 02:20:06 PM

Sky News Breaking
‏Verified account @SkyNewsBreak
13m13 minutes ago

Sky Sources say Japanese car manufacturer Honda is preparing to close its Swindon plant with the loss of 3,500 jobs

I've lost count of all the sunny uplands...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 04:37:27 PM
Sky News Breaking
‏Verified account @SkyNewsBreak
13m13 minutes ago

Sky Sources say Japanese car manufacturer Honda is preparing to close its Swindon plant with the loss of 3,500 jobs

I've lost count of all the sunny uplands...
Honda is set to announce the closure of its Swindon car plant in 2022, with the loss of about 3,500 jobs.
The Japanese company made 160,000 Honda Civics in Swindon last year, of which some 90% were exported to the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 04:39:39 PM
A non issue thankfully as we will be leaving the EU.
But one which helped sway a number of people to vote Leave as part of Project Fear.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 04:43:57 PM
Those who voted leave don't want to be governed by unelected foreigner bureaucrats and pay handsomely for the privilege.  They also don't want the UK overrun by illegals or foreigners who think that they can stay for ever just because they get a job.
Immigration will continue to rise post Brexit so the people will not get what they want anyway. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 04:45:40 PM
It's crazy transporting cars halfway around the world when we could make even better ones here in the UK while taking advantage of the new green electric motor era.  Instead of giving billions away to the EU the government should be subsidising a national car and truck industry to build our own.
These billions of pounds we’re not giving to the EU have already been earmarked for the NHS haven’t they?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 05:00:21 PM
This is what Honda had to say about Brexit 18 months ago:

The devastating impact of a hard Brexit on the UK car industry was laid bare on Tuesday to MPs, who were told every 15 minutes of customs delays would cost some manufacturers up to £850,000 a year.

Presenting the industry’s most detailed evidence yet to the business select committee, Honda UK said it relied on 350 trucks a day arriving from Europe to keep its giant Swindon factory operating, with just an hour’s worth of parts being held on the production line.

The Japanese-owned company said it would take 18 months to set up new procedures and warehouses if Britain left the customs union but that, with 2m daily component movements, even minor delays at Dover and the Channel tunnel would force hundreds of its trucks to wait for the equivalent of 90 hours a day.

“Outside of the customs union, there is no such thing as a frictionless border,” said Honda’s government affairs manager, Patrick Keating.

“I wouldn’t say that the just-in-time manufacturing model wouldn’t work, but it would certainly be very challenging.”

————————++++

Perhaps this has something to do with today’s decision?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 05:07:24 PM
Honda is set to announce the closure of its Swindon car plant in 2022, with the loss of about 3,500 jobs.
The Japanese company made 160,000 Honda Civics in Swindon last year, of which some 90% were exported to the EU.

Trying to find out if the 3,500 jobs are at the plant  or whether others related to the supply chain and are on top of that.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Admin on February 18, 2019, 05:14:44 PM
It was a non-issue to begin with.

I disagree Carana, the EU had big plans which now are in chaos.

Snip

West Midlands MEP James Carver said the debate planned by the pro-EU think tank the Kangaroo Group showed why Britain was right to be leaving the EU.

The Kangaroo Group’s space, security and defence working group invited MEPs to a debate on Tuesday next week entitled: European Army, Better Chances Without UK?

The event will be opened by Michael Gahler MEP, who is president of the Kangaroo Group and an influential member of the European Parliament’s defence committee.

Mr Carver, an independent eurosceptic, said it made clear the EU's intention to create a European Army.


https://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2019/02/16/plans-for-eu-army-laid-bare-says-mep/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 05:15:00 PM

The Trump administration not only dislikes the European Union, it is out to destroy it. The trip by the US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, to Europe last week was episode three of the onslaught, designed to play on east-west divisions within the EU. Episode one was Donald Trump’s 2017 Warsaw speech, infused with nativist nationalism. Episode two was Trump’s 2018 moves on tariffs, and his tearing up of key agreements such as the Iran nuclear deal and the Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty. To which should be added his open encouragements to Brexiteers, and his decision to pull out of Syria. All of the above affect European (including British) interests in very concrete ways, unlike mere tweets or insults thrown at allies.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/18/trump-pompeo-bolton-eu-eastern-european-states

Bannon all over it.
Another reason why the EU can't abandon Ireland, and the UK still hasn't found an "alternative arrangement" that could work.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 05:20:20 PM
I disagree Carana.

Snip

West Midlands MEP James Carver said the debate planned by the pro-EU think tank the Kangaroo Group showed why Britain was right to be leaving the EU.

The Kangaroo Group’s space, security and defence working group invited MEPs to a debate on Tuesday next week entitled: European Army, Better Chances Without UK?

The event will be opened by Michael Gahler MEP, who is president of the Kangaroo Group and an influential member of the European Parliament’s defence committee.

Mr Carver, an independent eurosceptic, said it made clear the EU's intention to create a European Army.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/politics/2019/02/16/plans-for-eu-army-laid-bare-says-mep/

There are noises about it, but what exactly is it? US keeps making threats to pull out of NATO and Putin is gloating.
If the chap I linked to earlier is correct, the UK could simply opt out (as it has over numerous things). If it just means more cooperation in military exercises, then I don't see the problem.

What I haven't worked out yet is where it would overlap with NATO, if ever.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Admin on February 18, 2019, 05:20:27 PM
The Japanese have bitten off their own nose to spite their face, the UK can do what Donald Trump has done and impose tariffs on any rogue states who move their manufacturing out of the UK.  Japan is not the wondrous must go to economy it once was and has been overtaken by China.  Doing a deal with China is what counts now.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 05:33:02 PM
I'm hearing that Fox is trying to offer 0 tariffs, like a headless chicken. An effect of that would be to decimate UK producers (including farms). Other countries are bound to protect their own interests and get the best deal possible for themselves. They know the UK is up the creek without a paddle. The whole idea of the UK holding all the cards was just ignorant bluster from those who should know better. Yet people believed them.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 05:55:30 PM
The Japanese have bitten off their own nose to spite their face, the UK can do what Donald Trump has done and impose tariffs on any rogue states who move their manufacturing out of the UK.  Japan is not the wondrous must go to economy it once was and has been overtaken by China.  Doing a deal with China is what counts now.
Why are you describing Japan as a rogue state?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 06:02:50 PM
The Japanese have bitten off their own nose to spite their face, the UK can do what Donald Trump has done and impose tariffs on any rogue states who move their manufacturing out of the UK.  Japan is not the wondrous must go to economy it once was and has been overtaken by China.  Doing a deal with China is what counts now.

Erm, yes, if we're still alive if and when that might happen....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 06:04:18 PM
Why are you describing Japan as a rogue state?
Ditto. I don't understand that, either.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 06:24:56 PM
Erm, yes, if we're still alive if and when that might happen....
A trade deal with China could be a double edged sword...
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/making-china-great-again/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 06:32:08 PM
Trying to find out if the 3,500 jobs are at the plant  or whether others related to the supply chain and are on top of that.
The people of Swindon voted for Brexit, now they will have to live with the devastating effects on their town and communities.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 06:36:12 PM
A trade deal with China could be a double edged sword...
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/08/making-china-great-again/

Yes, someone who knows far more than I do has been telling me this for quite some time, but I wasn't tuned in.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 06:44:03 PM
The people of Swindon voted for Brexit, now they will have to live with the devastating effects on their town and communities.

As I suspected (if this is true), many more jobs lost in Swindon that the 3,500.

https://twitter.com/pernilleru/status/1097504408181633025
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 07:00:23 PM
As I suspected (if this is true), many more jobs lost in Swindon that the 3,500.

https://twitter.com/pernilleru/status/1097504408181633025
Just get the UK government to invent a nationaised new car industry by 2022 and it will all be sorted.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 07:05:41 PM
Just get the UK government to invent a nationaised newl car industry by 2022 and it will all be sorted.

I very much doubt that the majority of people in Swindon would have voted to lose thousands of jobs if they'd been aware of what it would entail at the time.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on February 18, 2019, 07:08:16 PM
The people of Swindon voted for Brexit, now they will have to live with the devastating effects on their town and communities.

Sadly it seems they will not be on their own when it comes to that.  Is there already an effect on prescription medicine?  More and more anecdotal evidence points to shortages and pharmaceutical advice on alternatives in my neck of the woods.
Today a young man of my acquaintance could not get a repeat prescription for a liquid which was only available in tablet form ... that has never happened before ... the chemist could give no guarantee as to when or if it will be back in stock.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 07:40:31 PM
Sadly it seems they will not be on their own when it comes to that.  Is there already an effect on prescription medicine?  More and more anecdotal evidence points to shortages and pharmaceutical advice on alternatives in my neck of the woods.
Today a young man of my acquaintance could not get a repeat prescription for a liquid which was only available in tablet form ... that has never happened before ... the chemist could give no guarantee as to when or if it will be back in stock.

The EU has offered a time-limited emergency transit for essential goods. It was announced in December, and Raab has only just noticed...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 09:34:39 PM
From the Guardian:

Honda workers in Swindon expressed their anger and fears for the future on Monday over the expected closure of the plant, blaming Brexit for a loss that they said would send shockwaves through the town.

After news broke of the likely closure in 2022, with the loss of 3,500 jobs, one worker leaving the plant said the atmosphere inside was “clearly not very happy”.

The man, who like most workers absorbing the news did not wish to be named, has been with the company for 24 years. He blamed Brexit for the car giant’s decision. He said he had voted remain in the EU referendum and condemned the local Conservative MP Justin Tomlinson for campaigning for Brexit.

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“He wanted Brexit – he gets to carry the can. If he’s not unseated by a massive majority at the next election then this town gets what it deserves,” he said.

Before the referendum – in which 55% of the town backed leave – the site was a “perfectly viable car plant operating for 30 years, no problem at all”, he said. “As soon as Brexit comes along the plant needs investment.”

He said he thought the government was “completely incompetent” and felt “pretty hacked off” by the news.

Another man asked how he felt as he left the site replied: “Devastated. That’s all I can say.”

Union leaders echoed that view, with Unite’s Des Quinn saying closure would represent “a shattering body blow at the heart of UK manufacturing”.

The news comes as a particular shock in a community that has been relatively well insulated from the difficulties that have accompanied Brexit. Swindon, which has high employment and low immigration, is not typically seen as being at the sharp end of the referendum result. The city is ranked seventh in the country for productivity and has the second lowest percentage of residents in the country with no formal qualifications, according to the council.

But some more deprived areas of the town have seen few of the benefits that have accrued to the better-off areas.

Another worker said Honda – which builds 160,000 Civic cars a year at the plant – was integral to Swindon. “For the people and their families, it’s big, big news and this will have a huge effect,” he said.

He said that so far all he had heard were rumours. “We’ve not found out anything yet – I’ve not even had chance to read the report,” he said. “I’ve got a mortgage to pay off. I don’t know anything about it other than what people were saying on my lunch break.”

He also felt Brexit was to blame. “People voted for something without thinking of the consequences – it is what it is,” he said.

While other workers also said they had not heard any official statements from management, one said she could neither deny nor confirm a meeting had been called for 8am on Tuesday.

Alan Tomala, regional officer for the Unite union who worked at the plant between 1995 and 2007, said workers were “angry, dismayed and worried”.

“If the speculation is to be confirmed, 3,500 jobs are at risk,” Tomala said. “The usual formula is one job in the plant equates to four in the supply chain and the local economy. If closure is confirmed, it will rip the heart out of this area.”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 10:34:17 PM
Another brainchild, Sajid Javid, seems to have only just realised the implications on police cooperation and national security...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/18/sajid-javid-warns-eu-counterparts-of-joint-policing-disruption?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 18, 2019, 11:31:05 PM
Destroying the British car industry was part of the Brexiteers cunning plan all along:

4. 'Run down the UK car industry'
Hard Brexiters push for a highly liberalized global trading relationship that removes tariffs altogether. Their argument is that removing the protections for local industries might harm local manufacturing, but that's a price worth paying for cheaper goods. Their economic guru is Patrick Minford, a professor at the University of Cardiff and a member of the Economists for Brexit group. In 2012 he told a committee of MPs: "If you remove the protection of the sort that has been given to car industry, you're going to have a change in the situation facing that industry, and you are going to have to run it down. It'll be your interest to do it, just in the same way we ran down the coal industry, or the steel industry. These things happen."
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 18, 2019, 11:56:27 PM
Destroying the British car industry was part of the Brexiteers cunning plan all along:

4. 'Run down the UK car industry'
Hard Brexiters push for a highly liberalized global trading relationship that removes tariffs altogether. Their argument is that removing the protections for local industries might harm local manufacturing, but that's a price worth paying for cheaper goods. Their economic guru is Patrick Minford, a professor at the University of Cardiff and a member of the Economists for Brexit group. In 2012 he told a committee of MPs: "If you remove the protection of the sort that has been given to car industry, you're going to have a change in the situation facing that industry, and you are going to have to run it down. It'll be your interest to do it, just in the same way we ran down the coal industry, or the steel industry. These things happen."

What "protection"?

In the run-up to the 2016 Brexit referendum, Mr Minford wrote: “Over time, if we left the EU, it seems likely that we would mostly eliminate manufacturing , leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech. But this shouldn’t scare us.

“Britain is good at putting on a suit and selling to other nations.”

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/devastating-future-welsh-manufacturing-predicted-15323164

No one is talking about any plans re the service sector, which relies on rules that are even more complicated than the trade in goods.

Bonkers.


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 19, 2019, 12:00:09 AM
Only economic study showing benefits of Brexit debunked as 'doubly misleading'

Finding widely cited as evidence UK economy has little to lose from failing to agree a trade deal with the rest of the EU

    Ben Chu
    Economics Editor @Benchu_
    Wednesday 19 April 2017

Work by the “Economists for Brexit” group, led by Professor Patrick Minford of Cardiff Business School, before last year’s referendum suggested that if the UK left the EU without a trade deal and unilaterally dropped all tariff barriers on imports the country’s GDP could be boosted by 4 per cent relative to otherwise.

snip
The finding, which contradicted all other studies which showed that Britain would be worse off due to leaving the EU, has been widely cited by hardline Brexiteers and even some business figures as evidence that the UK economy has little to lose if Britain fails to conclude a trade deal with the rest of the EU.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexiteers-economists-for-brexit-patrick-minford-study-doubly-misleading-eu-uk-trade-deal-tariff-a7691271.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 19, 2019, 02:28:19 PM
Gove addressing the NFU, and her response.

Full tariffs on farm exports, no inspection posts in Calais...

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1097852933608259584
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 19, 2019, 02:35:20 PM
Kate Hoey on the need to reassure investors how great everything is...

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/1096912448278405120

 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on February 19, 2019, 03:08:54 PM
Gove addressing the NFU, and her response.

Full tariffs on farm exports, no inspection posts in Calais...

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1097852933608259584
Nula
‏@NulaTweets
Replying to @PropertySpot
.@MichaelGove, I love how you're able to make it sound as if none of this is your fault. Quite impressive.
6:40 am - 19 Feb 2019

I think Nula hits the nail on the head.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 19, 2019, 04:33:24 PM
Nula
‏@NulaTweets
Replying to @PropertySpot
.@MichaelGove, I love how you're able to make it sound as if none of this is your fault. Quite impressive.
6:40 am - 19 Feb 2019

I think Nula hits the nail on the head.

I had a clip where he'd said pretty much the opposite, just before the ref. When he now says that UK food or other (e.g. chemical) standards won't be lowered, I have trouble believing him. Or any of the others.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 19, 2019, 04:35:32 PM
Here's another situation: a seafood exporter who's in a total mess. So sad. ;(

https://twitter.com/Scotkraut/status/1097807265191612418
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 19, 2019, 10:23:06 PM
Sadly it seems they will not be on their own when it comes to that.  Is there already an effect on prescription medicine?  More and more anecdotal evidence points to shortages and pharmaceutical advice on alternatives in my neck of the woods.
Today a young man of my acquaintance could not get a repeat prescription for a liquid which was only available in tablet form ... that has never happened before ... the chemist could give no guarantee as to when or if it will be back in stock.

Nothing to do with Brexit... there has been a change in prescription policy ongoing for many years now. When a doctor/nurse writes a script it spits out the cheapest form of that drug or the nearest to it.  scare mongering anyone? lol
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 19, 2019, 10:25:34 PM
The EU has offered a time-limited emergency transit for essential goods. It was announced in December, and Raab has only just noticed...

don't suppose the German Car manufacturers will miss our sales then.. You are making me laugh!

vee vill not sell you any ov our carrz - get you stuff  ed
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 19, 2019, 10:26:29 PM
Nothing to do with Brexit... there has been a change in prescription policy ongoing for many years now. When a doctor/nurse writes a script it spits out the cheapest form of that drug or the nearest to it.  scare mongering anyone? lol

BREXIT is being used as an excuse in many cases but people aren't stupid, they can see through the fog.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on February 19, 2019, 10:28:31 PM
don't suppose the German Car manufacturers will miss our sales then.. You are making me laugh!

vee vill not sell you any ov our carrz - get you stuff  ed

The German and French car manufacturers would be decimated if the UK were to tariff them so they better be nice to us otherwise we will buy elsewhere and for less money. China for example can sell you a 4wd Jeep type car for about ten to twelve grand and the only reason we can't buy them now is because the EU has banned their import. I can see China Car showrooms all over the UK before long unless we create our own automotive industry.  So the writing could very well be on the wall for French and German cars already.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 19, 2019, 10:36:08 PM
The German and French car manufacturers would be decimated if the UK were to tariff them so they better be nice to us otherwise we will buy elsewhere and for less money. China for example can sell you a 4wd Jeep type car for about ten to twelve grand and the only reason we can't buy them now is because the EU has banned their import. I can see China Car showrooms all over the UK before long.

lol yeah, the problem is China do not do quality... just quantity.

 The trade goes both ways... are people forgetting this? we should just batten down the hatches- refuse to buy goods and services from those who are wiping their sh  on our door mat on the way out...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 19, 2019, 10:43:16 PM
The German and French car manufacturers would be decimated if the UK were to tariff them so they better be nice to us otherwise we will buy elsewhere and for less money. China for example can sell you a 4wd Jeep type car for about ten to twelve grand and the only reason we can't buy them now is because the EU has banned their import. I can see China Car showrooms all over the UK before long unless we create our own automotive industry.  So the writing could very well be on the wall for French and German cars already.
Won’t that be great?  Get rid of all those quality European brands and replace them with shoddy cheap Chinese ones instead.  I can’t wait!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 19, 2019, 10:51:01 PM
A reminder:
“Under WTO rules, after Brexit, cars would be taxed at 10% when they crossed the UK-EU border. And agricultural tariffs would be significantly higher, rising to an average of more than 35% for dairy products.
The UK could choose to lower tariffs or waive them altogether, in an attempt to stimulate free trade. That could mean some cheaper products coming into the country for consumers but it could also risk driving some UK producers out of business.
It's important to remember that, under the WTO's "most favoured nation" rules, the UK couldn't just lower tariffs for the EU, or any specific country, unless it had agreed a trade deal. It has to treat every WTO member around the world with which it does not have a trade deal in the same way”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 19, 2019, 10:59:06 PM
The German and French car manufacturers would be decimated if the UK were to tariff them so they better be nice to us otherwise we will buy elsewhere and for less money. China for example can sell you a 4wd Jeep type car for about ten to twelve grand and the only reason we can't buy them now is because the EU has banned their import. I can see China Car showrooms all over the UK before long unless we create our own automotive industry.  So the writing could very well be on the wall for French and German cars already.
Can you explain a bit more about this state sponsored car industry you expect the government to kick start.  Is this starting from scratch with a whole new brand, design, etc or what?  Is it your contention that we kick out all other car manufacturers and only have a British one, a bit like the Trabant monopoly in communist East Germany last century?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 19, 2019, 11:02:59 PM
The German and French car manufacturers would be decimated if the UK were to tariff them so they better be nice to us otherwise we will buy elsewhere and for less money. China for example can sell you a 4wd Jeep type car for about ten to twelve grand and the only reason we can't buy them now is because the EU has banned their import. I can see China Car showrooms all over the UK before long unless we create our own automotive industry.  So the writing could very well be on the wall for French and German cars already.

Scrap that, I misread your post. The EU has to charge the UK third-country tariffs. Otherwise, it would have to lower tariffs to every other third-country. Why would they want to do that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 19, 2019, 11:11:37 PM
Can you explain a bit more about this state sponsored car industry you expect the government to kick start.  Is this starting from scratch with a whole new brand, design, etc or what?  Is it your contention that we kick out all other car manufacturers and only have a British one, a bit like the Trabant monopoly in communist East Germany last century?

And the UK would have to produce all the components itself to avoid tariffs on importing the bits and pieces.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 19, 2019, 11:15:52 PM
Scrap that, I misread your post. The EU has to charge the UK third-country tariffs. Otherwise, it would have to lower tariffs to every other third-country. Why would they want to do that?

To sell their wares?

We used to have that in this country we were the over priced sisters in the EU.  Nothing wrong with baking your own bread... you lot sound like we are going to be starved to death in a  year or so of moving out of the EU...

Too funny.

Y'all don't know!!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 19, 2019, 11:24:49 PM
don't suppose the German Car manufacturers will miss our sales then.. You are making me laugh!

vee vill not sell you any ov our carrz - get you stuff  ed

What?? The emergency arrangement is just to keep road and air transport going for a few months, until the UK figures something out. Otherwise, everything just shuts down at the end of March.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 19, 2019, 11:28:08 PM
To sell their wares?

We used to have that in this country we were the over priced sisters in the EU.  Nothing wrong with baking your own bread... you lot sound like we are going to be starved to death in a  year or so of moving out of the EU...

Too funny.

Y'all don't know!!!

No, once the chaos dies down, more stuff can still come in, but it will be very slow and more expensive.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2019, 09:41:19 AM
From Brexit Central on tariffs, etc..

This seems to be what Fox was hinting at recently (0% tariffs on food imports), which Gove has been at pains to "correct".

https://brexitcentral.com/tariff-policy-government-announce-29th-march/

This was the thinking that had the NFU up in arms.




To take just this:

"Foodstuffs will be imported free of all duties. Note that this is one of the principal benefits of Brexit."
First, it would decimate food industry, both for producers for the UK market, swamped by cheaper imports of potentially dubious quality, and the negative effects for food product exporters, which this "policy" paper merrily glides over.

Project reality:

"A no-deal Brexit would seriously harm the UK’s farmers, Michael Gove has admitted. The Environment Secretary told the National Farmer’s Union (NFU) conference that there was “no absolute guarantee” that British farmers could export any of their produce to the EU in a no-deal scenario, and would face punishing tariffs even if they could. Mr Gove also dismissed speculation that the UK Government could slash tariffs on food imports after Brexit, an idea hinted at by International Trade Secretary Liam Fox.

 The suggestion had angered food producers, who warned they would be forced out of business by a flood of cheap imports. “It will not be the case that we will have zero rate tariffs on food products, there will be protection for agriculture and food,” Mr Gove said. The Environment Secretary said that with six weeks to go until Brexit, the UK had not been formally designated by the EU as a ‘third country’. Health and safety audits required by Brussels before that can happen could take up to six months, effectively locking British producers out of their biggest market under a no-deal Brexit. “The EU still have not listed the UK as a full third country,” Mr Gove said. “As I speak there is no absolute guarantee we will continue to be able to export to the EU.”

Read more at: https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/brexit-michael-gove-admits-farmers-may-never-recover-from-no-deal-1-4875463

Or this:

"Automotive components, parts and sub-assemblies. Duties should be removed. These currently attract duties of around 5%. Eliminating them will help UK assembly plants relying on supplies from Europe and Japan on a “just-in-time” basis."
 



Andrew Neil
‏Verified account @afneil

Andrew Neil Retweeted Robert Harris

This much more important than all the Brexit-related drivel being tweeted about Honda today. If this is true the Brexit case that Leave = cheaper food has just gone down in flames.

Andrew Neil added,
Robert Harris
 @Robert___Harris
Woah, hold on a second: Gove has just casually announced the U.K. will after all apply tariffs on imported food to protect British farmers. That both demolishes one of the rationales for Brexit, and raises the spectre of an issue that crippled the Tories in the 1840s & 1900s
11:02 AM - 19 Feb 2019
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1097964650128437250

However, applying tariffs would wipe out ROI's farming exports to the UK... with all the political chaos that would result from that...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2019, 11:55:48 AM
Talking to myself here... LOL


LBC
‏Verified account @LBC

Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen said: "We no longer feel we can remain in the party of a Government whose policies and priorities are so firmly in the grip of the ERG and DUP."
https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1098183815208554497
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 20, 2019, 12:49:22 PM
Talking to myself here... LOL


LBC
‏Verified account @LBC

Anna Soubry, Sarah Wollaston and Heidi Allen said: "We no longer feel we can remain in the party of a Government whose policies and priorities are so firmly in the grip of the ERG and DUP."
https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1098183815208554497

Interesting responses. I make it 23 'good riddances' and one message of support. These MP's seem totally oblivious to their own inconsistences for some reason, but those commenting can see very clearly what they have done wtong.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 20, 2019, 06:11:57 PM
Interesting responses. I make it 23 'good riddances' and one message of support. These MP's seem totally oblivious to their own inconsistences for some reason, but those commenting can see very clearly what they have done wtong.
What have they done wrong?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 20, 2019, 08:52:06 PM
What have they done wrong?

Going on your past posts, you seem to think it's OK to get elected on a mandate which you then reject. Then it's OK to keep the seat despite no longer having a mandate.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 20, 2019, 08:59:57 PM
Going on your past posts, you seem to think it's OK to get elected on a mandate which you then reject. Then it's OK to keep the seat despite no longer having a mandate.
If it wasn’t OK then there would be a rule that anyone leaving a political party automatically lost their seat. As there isn’t then I assume it is acceptable and it certainly wouldn’t be the first time this has happened.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on February 20, 2019, 09:15:13 PM
Going on your past posts, you seem to think it's OK to get elected on a mandate which you then reject. Then it's OK to keep the seat despite no longer having a mandate.
What if the mandate on which you were elected is no longer one which is recognisable to you?  What if the party of which you have been a member for forty or fifty plus years is no longer one which is recognisable to you?  What if constituencies and selection conferences are now the province of a particular faction and no longer the 'broad church' which it endeavoured to be?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2019, 11:10:20 PM
Britain’s second largest insurer has announced it will move £9bn worth of assets to Ireland as it prepares for Brexit.

Aviva, which has more than 14.5 million policyholders, has received approval from the High Court in London to transfer €9bn (£7.8bn) to Dublin.

It follows approval earlier this month to move £1bn to the Irish capital.

The move, which is timed for 10.59pm on 29 March, is designed to deal with the consequences of a no-deal Brexit.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/brexit-aviva-ireland-assets-moving-dublin-no-deal-planning-high-court-a8788156.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 20, 2019, 11:14:37 PM
Blimey, at this rate all we’ll have left come April are Wetherspoons.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2019, 11:35:54 PM
Blimey, at this rate all we’ll have left come April are Wetherspoons.

Yep.

On Friday, NatWest, part of Royal Bank of Scotland, is due to ask a court in Edinburgh to approve its application to move £6 billion in assets and £7 billion in liabilities from Britain to its Dutch hub.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu/aviva-natwest-to-join-brexodus-of-business-to-eu-idUKKCN1Q81YW?fbclid=IwAR0DP57_mDRezCqwAgyb5olsbV_z_v6ZXzoZIkA_ki3X_qKbUjoERa6j-lc
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 20, 2019, 11:40:50 PM
So this is how we take back control - by scaring off investors, manufacturing businesses and the big guns in the city.  Keep calm and carry on, everything will be fine...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 20, 2019, 11:56:47 PM
So this is how we take back control - by scaring off investors, manufacturing businesses and the big guns in the city.  Keep calm and carry on, everything will be fine...

You forgot better national security by no longer having access to databases on dodgy people, no EAWs...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2019, 12:19:40 AM
According to Peston, May had said that a referendum would undermine social cohesion. How prophetic...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW_lOnmHxMg
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2019, 12:29:57 AM
Dominic Grieve says he told may that she should look at the ref result in the light of the reality that we are now facing.

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1098355954188353536
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2019, 01:11:21 AM


Joe Pike
‏Verified account @joepike

WATCH: Jamie Driscoll - Labour's candidate to be the new North of Tyne Mayor - struggles to explain his position on #Brexit.
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1098250673035071490
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2019, 09:52:05 AM
Another Brexit business closedown - French company Yves Rocher (https://www.yves-rocher.co.uk/control/main/ ) are closing down all UK operations, including high street shops and a mail order distribution centre - and stopping taking UK orders.
https://twitter.com/steveparks/status/1098510734672216064
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2019, 10:38:18 AM
Brexitshambles has laid this out more clearly than I have, no doubt:


Long Read: The UK Refused To Implement Immigration Powers
http://www.brexitshambles.com/the-uk-refused-to-implement-immigration-powers/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on February 21, 2019, 11:42:29 AM
Another Brexit business closedown - French company Yves Rocher (https://www.yves-rocher.co.uk/control/main/ (https://www.yves-rocher.co.uk/control/main/) ) are closing down all UK operations, including high street shops and a mail order distribution centre - and stopping taking UK orders.
https://twitter.com/steveparks/status/1098510734672216064 (https://twitter.com/steveparks/status/1098510734672216064)
If all else fails, blame our overdue exit from this freeloaders' paradise on businesses jumping ship   Methinks you're overly biased... maybe falling global sales and poor customer service are the real reasons for Yves Rocher's demise...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/french-skincare-company-to-close-cork-plant-1.3323024 (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/french-skincare-company-to-close-cork-plant-1.3323024)

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/yvesrocher.fr?languages=en (https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/yvesrocher.fr?languages=en)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2019, 12:29:27 PM
If all else fails, blame our overdue exit from this freeloaders' paradise on businesses jumping ship   Methinks you're overly biased... maybe falling global sales and poor customer service are the real reasons for Yves Rocher's demise...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/french-skincare-company-to-close-cork-plant-1.3323024 (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/french-skincare-company-to-close-cork-plant-1.3323024)

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/yvesrocher.fr?languages=en (https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/yvesrocher.fr?languages=en)

The company said that, following an extensive review of its operations, prompted by falling global volumes in recent years, Groupe Roche Operations had taken the decision to consolidate its manufacturing at its Brittany base.

Falling demand plus Brexit uncertainty can tip a company over the edge in decision-making.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on February 21, 2019, 02:21:39 PM
If all else fails, blame our overdue exit from this freeloaders' paradise on businesses jumping ship   Methinks you're overly biased... maybe falling global sales and poor customer service are the real reasons for Yves Rocher's demise...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/french-skincare-company-to-close-cork-plant-1.3323024 (https://www.irishtimes.com/business/health-pharma/french-skincare-company-to-close-cork-plant-1.3323024)

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/yvesrocher.fr?languages=en (https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/yvesrocher.fr?languages=en)

They are very expensive.  I can't afford to buy them.  And they aren't much cop anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 21, 2019, 05:08:19 PM
Emergency contingency plan offered by the EU is to allow traffic for cargo planes for 5 months, while they find ways to "reroute". Unspecified time limit for passenger planes so far, but airline owners & board will have 6 months to set up to be a majority of EU citizens.

Taking back control?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 22, 2019, 10:47:07 AM
Moved to http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10574.msg513827#msg513827
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 22, 2019, 10:58:51 AM
Thread on Sir Ivan Roger's * analysis of the conundrum:

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1098649565253779457


* Sir Mark Ivan Rogers KCMG is a former senior British civil servant, who was the Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom to the European Union from 4 November 2013 until his resignation on 3 January 2017. Source wikipedia

IMO, he would have known that the Leave politicians could never have delivered the sunny uplands that voters were promised, which may well be why he quit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 22, 2019, 11:02:50 AM
Moved
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 22, 2019, 07:47:37 PM
A bit of light relief. LOL

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1092740115716362241

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1098948160117002240

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i97FkO3d_lU
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 24, 2019, 01:47:37 PM
A bit of light relief. LOL

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1092740115716362241

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1098948160117002240

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i97FkO3d_lU



Hilarious!

I wonder who paid for  it....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2019, 12:00:31 PM

Christopher Hope
‏Verified account @christopherhope

I have an idea: why doesn't the UK leave the EU on March 29 without a deal, save £39bn to help British companies and unilaterally agree to abide by EU rules for 21 months?
This would allow us to sort out trade deals (having left) which can then start at the end of 2020. #Simples
9:58 AM - 27 Feb 2019


https://twitter.com/christopherhope/status/1100847652332335109

I had to look at his profile to see who he is...

Christopher HopeVerified account
@christopherhope

Chief Political Correspondent and Assistant Editor, The Daily Telegraph Presenter, Chopper's Brexit Podcast. http://www.playpodca.st/chopper  Parliament Lobby chairman


Is he serious??
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 28, 2019, 01:42:17 PM
What if the mandate on which you were elected is no longer one which is recognisable to you?  What if the party of which you have been a member for forty or fifty plus years is no longer one which is recognisable to you?  What if constituencies and selection conferences are now the province of a particular faction and no longer the 'broad church' which it endeavoured to be?

You resign from the party and the seat and let your constituents decide who they prefer to have representing them.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 28, 2019, 06:09:21 PM
Interesting to see non EU migration has shot up steeply since the referendum.  Leavers must be delighted.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 28, 2019, 09:16:15 PM
What is the best posters expect from this sorry mess and what is the worst?
At the moment I admit I have no idea.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on February 28, 2019, 10:44:11 PM
What is the best posters expect from this sorry mess and what is the worst?
At the moment I admit I have no idea.

Neither does the government...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on March 01, 2019, 01:00:20 AM
What is the best posters expect from this sorry mess and what is the worst?
At the moment I admit I have no idea.

A UK and its people free to choose their own destiny.  A downturn is inevitable in the short term but then this will be mirrored in the EU too.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: slartibartfast on March 01, 2019, 08:53:32 AM
A UK and its people free to choose their own destiny.  A downturn is inevitable in the short term but then this will be mirrored in the EU too.

So economic downturn is fine as long as it affects to EU as well?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 01, 2019, 10:37:59 AM
It's very difficult to know what the result of leaving the EU would be. We don't know what motives or vested interests commentators have. Leavers have been accused of lying, remainers of spreadng fear. The public have been accused of being guillible.

What is clear is that all the arguing has damaged the concept of democracy. It took centuries to wrest power from those who ruled, and for every adult to have a vote. For nillions of people that's all they have; the opportunity to use that vote to express their opinions and desires.

Everything which has happened since the referendum has, in my opinion, undermined the value of that vote and the idea that we live in a society which respects the will of the majority.

Whatever happens in the end the damage to the credibility of our political system will remain.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 01, 2019, 10:59:52 AM
It's very difficult to know what the result of leaving the EU would be. We don't know what motives or vested interests commentators have. Leavers have been accused of lying, remainers of spreadng fear. The public have been accused of being guillible.

What is clear is that all the arguing has damaged the concept of democracy. It took centuries to wrest power from those who ruled, and for every adult to have a vote. For nillions of people that's all they have; the opportunity to use that vote to express their opinions and desires.

Everything which has happened since the referendum has, in my opinion, undermined the value of that vote and the idea that we live in a society which respects the will of the majority.

Whatever happens in the end the damage to the credibility of our political system will remain.

It has finally exposed Politicians for what they really are.  Self serving egotists who don't give a damn for The People.

Not that this will make much difference.  The Vote is worthless.  At best it will be ignored.  And if you don't vote then the existing Government will remain by default.

I have finally given up on Britain.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2019, 02:49:49 PM
Two blog articles that I found interesting.


 Brexiters are running away from the consequences of what they have inflicted on Britain
http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2018/05/brexiters-are-running-away-from.html


Brexit lobbyists and climate science deniers become embedded in the mainstream press
https://theecologist.org/2018/sep/12/brexit-lobbyists-and-climate-science-deniers-become-embedded-mainstream-press

There's actually more to the saga than is mentioned in the 2nd one as it doesn't really touch on all the far-right US and Russian connections.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2019, 03:12:04 PM
It's very difficult to know what the result of leaving the EU would be. We don't know what motives or vested interests commentators have. Leavers have been accused of lying, remainers of spreadng fear. The public have been accused of being guillible.

What is clear is that all the arguing has damaged the concept of democracy. It took centuries to wrest power from those who ruled, and for every adult to have a vote. For nillions of people that's all they have; the opportunity to use that vote to express their opinions and desires.

Everything which has happened since the referendum has, in my opinion, undermined the value of that vote and the idea that we live in a society which respects the will of the majority.

Whatever happens in the end the damage to the credibility of our political system will remain.

I take your point, but 2.5 years ago people were were fed lies, distorted half-truths and the promises were devoid of any basis in reality. There was no deal for people to weigh up (there still isn't). Even some of the politicians apparently beleived the plan was to stay in the single market and customs union. The term "cakeism" was born.

Now that the choices and implications are clearer, why not go back to the people and ask them which they feel is best?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2019, 04:40:34 PM
For anyone wondering what references to Tufton Street are about:
http://www.brexitshambles.com/brexit-scam-we-need-to-talk-about-tufton-street/

I'll dig out some other reading on connections to the far-right US lobbies / big businesses.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2019, 04:48:09 PM
The radio host Julia Hartley-Brewer on how she would have led Brexit negotiations. She appears to follow the ERG line of thinking. Which has got the UK precisely nowhere in 2.5 years.
https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK/status/1101172244141785094


She also thinks that no-deal is a term of departure. Dominic Grieve attempts to set her straight.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/dominic-grieve-and-julia-hartley-brewer-on-a-no-deal-brexit-1-5910466
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 01, 2019, 05:03:12 PM
Interesting thread on the history of mumblings about a referendum.

There's also a clip of an interview with Cameron. He was so convinced he could quash the Eurosceptics by holdng a referendum in which people would necessarily vote to remain that he hadn't even thought through what would happen if it all went t*ts up.

And the rest is history...


Property Spotter
‏ @PropertySpot

For Michael Gove and Boris Johnson, Brexit was never meant to be about leaving the EU.

Thread.  (1/x)

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1100079086192480256
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 01, 2019, 05:58:50 PM
It's very difficult to know what the result of leaving the EU would be. We don't know what motives or vested interests commentators have. Leavers have been accused of lying, remainers of spreadng fear. The public have been accused of being guillible.

What is clear is that all the arguing has damaged the concept of democracy. It took centuries to wrest power from those who ruled, and for every adult to have a vote. For nillions of people that's all they have; the opportunity to use that vote to express their opinions and desires.

Everything which has happened since the referendum has, in my opinion, undermined the value of that vote and the idea that we live in a society which respects the will of the majority.

Whatever happens in the end the damage to the credibility of our political system will remain.
Even if we crash out without a deal and make all Brexiteers ‘ dreams come true?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 01, 2019, 06:23:47 PM
I take your point, but 2.5 years ago people were were fed lies, distorted half-truths and the promises were devoid of any basis in reality. There was no deal for people to weigh up (there still isn't). Even some of the politicians apparently beleived the plan was to stay in the single market and customs union. The term "cakeism" was born.

Now that the choices and implications are clearer, why not go back to the people and ask them which they feel is best?

You seem to share the remainer's opinion of the British people. I don't think they're anywhere near as guillible and easily swayed as you are suggesting. Perhaps it's you who are swallowing and repeating the remainer's propaganda.

What is clear is that there's still a sustained and unrelenting canpaign to stop Brexit from happening. The claims that this campaign is driven by concern for our economy and our country may be true, but they were rejected by a majority of those who voted in the referendum.

Now that the campaigners have insulted the voters by revealing what they really think of them I think they are taking a huge chance by suggesting the people should be asked furtherr questions. If the public have learned anything it's to rake everything said by politicians and the media with a lorry loead of salt.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 01, 2019, 06:50:32 PM
You seem to share the remainer's opinion of the British people. I don't think they're anywhere near as guillible and easily swayed as you are suggesting. Perhaps it's you who are swallowing and repeating the remainer's propaganda.

What is clear is that there's still a sustained and unrelenting canpaign to stop Brexit from happening. The claims that this campaign is driven by concern for our economy and our country may be true, but they were rejected by a majority of those who voted in the referendum.

Now that the campaigners have insulted the voters by revealing what they really think of them I think they are taking a huge chance by suggesting the people should be asked furtherr questions. If the public have learned anything it's to rake everything said by politicians and the media with a lorry loead of salt.
What is wrong with asking the public to vote for May’s deal or no deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 02, 2019, 06:13:29 AM
What is wrong with asking the public to vote for May’s deal or no deal?

I'd be very surprised if the public were asked if they wanted a no deal exit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 02, 2019, 07:13:19 AM
I'd be very surprised if the public were asked if they wanted a no deal exit.
That’s not answering the question.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 07:18:05 AM
I'd be very surprised if the public were asked if they wanted a no deal exit.

That's one of the suggestions going around - again probably to appease the Faragistas & the ERGonites who've changed their tune from 'rich Norway' (Farage), "no one's talking about leaving the Single Market' (Hannan?) and general cakeism (BoJo and all the rest of them) to anything other than a "clean break" is a "betrayal of Brexit means Brexit'.

I can understand that people are fed up of it dominating the news (aren't we all?), so the idea of a "clean break" (let's just get on with it, we survived the War after all) may appeal to some of those weary of the while thing.   

However, the imminent reality of a "clean Brexit" is the equivalent of suggesting that everyone jumps of a cliff and hopes that parachutes will somehow appear out of nowhere. Or, if Grayling is in charge of ordering them, faulty umbrellas from a company that has never made any.

The idea that an isolated UK would then somehow be in a position of strength to dictate its terms is pure fantasy. It doesn't even happen in nature, let alone international negotiations.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 07:29:07 AM
Whatever the type of Brexit 37% of the electorate voted for, I find it highly unlikely that it was to shoot themselves in the foot and having to wait for an emergency consignment of bandaids and [ censored word]eptic.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 02, 2019, 08:06:29 AM
Whatever the type of Brexit 37% of the electorate voted for, I find it highly unlikely that it was to shoot themselves in the foot and having to wait for an emergency consignment of bandaids and [ censored word]eptic.
Incidents of self-harm are on the rise though so....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 02, 2019, 09:10:00 AM
That’s not answering the question.

I see no reason to amswer yout question as it's speculative. The questions you suggest aren't those that would be asked, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 01:53:55 PM
The anti-EU disinforrmation brigade is in full swing on Facebook, apparently, and it's spreading on Twittter.


chrissie lefranc
‏ @chrissielefranc

Just been reading some of The Lisbon Treaty, very worrying. By 2020 we lose our veto, control over fishing, agriculture and more. Also by 2022 all countries must adopt the Euro. How can Theresa May and our MPs want to keep us in such an appalling club? Mental.
8:55 PM - 28 Feb 2019


It was debunked over a month ago...

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1087258784001654784.html


And a variation on the same theme, supposedly stated by Macron.

Not true either:

Full Fact
‏Verified account @FullFact

A Facebook post claims Emmanuel Macron said the UK must meet a number of conditions if it wants to remain in the EU.

We could find no evidence of this.

The French Embassy in London has now confirmed to us that Mr Macron said none of these things.

https://twitter.com/FullFact/status/1100644197437124608
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 02, 2019, 05:35:48 PM
BBC's Rafio 4's Any Answers had a phone in on Brexit today. I'm not the only one who thinks our politicians have done more damage to our democracy than they realise. Other points were raised;

Delaying Brexit is just extending the uncertainty which is what businesses are complaining about.
Asking more questions isn't necessary because they have the answer already.
Northern Ireland shouldn't be dictating terms; they voted to remain, so why don't they leave the UK and join with the Republic.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 02, 2019, 05:51:42 PM
I see no reason to amswer yout question as it's speculative. The questions you suggest aren't those that would be asked, in my opinion.
There is nothing speculative about my question.  I asked “what is wrong” with asking the questions posed.  Is there anything wrong with asking them or not?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 02, 2019, 05:53:01 PM
BBC's Rafio 4's Any Answers had a phone in on Brexit today. I'm not the only one who thinks our politicians have done more damage to our democracy than they realise. Other points were raised;

Delaying Brexit is just extending the uncertainty which is what businesses are complaining about.
Asking more questions isn't necessary because they have the answer already.
Northern Ireland shouldn't be dictating terms; they voted to remain, so why don't they leave the UK and join with the Republic.
So do the people want May’s deal or No Deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 07:00:35 PM
BBC's Rafio 4's Any Answers had a phone in on Brexit today. I'm not the only one who thinks our politicians have done more damage to our democracy than they realise. Other points were raised;

Delaying Brexit is just extending the uncertainty which is what businesses are complaining about.
Asking more questions isn't necessary because they have the answer already.
Northern Ireland shouldn't be dictating terms; they voted to remain, so why don't they leave the UK and join with the Republic.

I agree with you that the politicians have damaged democracy, and are also busy damaging the country as a whole and its allies.

I'm not aware that NI has been "dictating terms". Yes, they voted Remain, as did Scotland and Gibraltar.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 07:03:43 PM
Wasn't sure, but it was indeed Hannan, who assured everyone:

"Absolutely no one is threatening our place in the Single Market" (12 May, 2015).
https://twitter.com/IrelandFacts1/status/1101913741669646336
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 07:12:16 PM
Not sure if I've already posted this. With all the fuss about the ECJ, someone took the trouble to actually go  through all 89 rulings involving the UK over the past 30 years, summarising them in an entertaining way (IMO).

Thread:
Jim Grace #FBPE
‏ @mac_puck

I recently looked at "all them rules" that the EC imposed on the UK against our will. The Brexiters also like to bewail the tyranny of the ECJ, but usually cannot cite a single judgement. So here are all 89 judgements against HMG over the last 30 years (3 per year😱). Enjoy...
4:45 AM - 6 Feb 2019

https://twitter.com/mac_puck/status/1093158790394978304

A fair number of them are actually about pollution.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 02, 2019, 07:14:18 PM
“UK car exports have slumped by one-fifth and production has fallen for an eighth successive month, prompting industry figures to warn of a “clear and present danger” from a no-deal Brexit.

The number of cars leaving UK factories slumped 18.2 per cent to 120,600 in January compared to the same month a year ago, the industry’s trade body said.

The decline was driven by a 21.4 per cent decline in exports, which account for most of production. Output destined for the EU was down by one-fifth while car exports to China collapsed 72 per cent, the latest figures from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) showed. Manufacturing for the UK market fell by a more modest 4.8 per cent.”
From the Independent.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 07:17:29 PM
BBC's Rafio 4's Any Answers had a phone in on Brexit today. I'm not the only one who thinks our politicians have done more damage to our democracy than they realise. Other points were raised;

Delaying Brexit is just extending the uncertainty which is what businesses are complaining about.
Asking more questions isn't necessary because they have the answer already.
Northern Ireland shouldn't be dictating terms; they voted to remain, so why don't they leave the UK and join with the Republic.



Hannan:    A good Brexit in 2020 is better than a bad one now
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/02/no-self-respecting-country-would-accept-deal-mps-must-vote/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 07:32:12 PM

We now know the great prize of Brexit: becoming Trump’s prey
Jonathan Freedland

Extract:

... On Thursday Lighthizer released Washington’s “negotiating objectives”, starting with “comprehensive market access for US agricultural goods in the UK”. Translation: they want the right to fill our supermarkets with their chlorinated chicken.

There’s language in there that takes aim at the NHS, specifically at the health service’s power as a bulk purchaser to set prices, paying less for drugs than big pharma would like. The US demand for “procedural fairness” may well be an attempt to break that power, forcing the NHS – and everyone else – to pay more for medicine.

Some of these are demands any US administration would make, but others are Trump innovations. Note the US insistence that, on services, Britain take down all existing barriers to American exporters, while the US be allowed to maintain barriers that keep out British exporters. As Sam Lowe, trade analyst at the Centre for European Reform, puts it: “It’s a laughably one-sided demand.”

More striking is the US attempt to restrict Britain’s ability to sign a deal with a non-market economy such as China. So much for taking back control. If the UK were to sign up to these demands, we’d simply be trading one set of restraints on our sovereignty – restraints agreed by us and 27 other nations in Brussels – for another, dictated by Donald Trump in Washington.

And what would it be for? The government’s own figures estimate that the best we could hope for from a US trade agreement would be a 0.3% boost to GDP – meagre compensation for the hit of between 4% and 8% we’ll take from leaving the EU. Right now, we are part of a bloc big enough to stand up to the demands of an America First Trump administration. After Brexit, we will be a single medium-sized economy standing alone, with much less ability to say no.

The truth is, the goal of a trade deal with the US never made economic sense. It was all about politics – the quest for a trophy that could be presented as a benefit of Brexit when, in fact, there are next to none. It didn’t stack up in June 2016, but it is even more absurd now – abandoning the largest ever free trade area, right where we live, for a dictator-coddling would-be autocrat thousands of miles away, who sees us not as a trusted ally but as prey.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/01/brexit-trump-trade-hanoi?CMP=share_btn_tw
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 08:44:20 PM
I was about to have dinner...

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1101525020881367041
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 08:51:25 PM
Chlorinated chicken, anyone?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/02/us-ambassador-to-uk-woody-johnson-under-fire-over-defence-of-chlorinated-chicken-post-brexit-jay-rayner
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 02, 2019, 09:34:40 PM


Hannan:    A good Brexit in 2020 is better than a bad one now
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/02/no-self-respecting-country-would-accept-deal-mps-must-vote/

It sounds good, but 27 other countries have no intention of giving the UK anything to celebrate now or ever imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 10:04:01 PM
It sounds good, but 27 other countries have no intention of giving the UK anything to celebrate now or ever imo.

What's good? Having the uncertainty of a "good Brexit" possibly happening in 2020?

I've really no idea what a "good Brexit" could possibly be.

Businesses that export to the EU (goods or services) can't wait.

No one seems to be talking about the services industry, but some sectors need FoM (being able to hire or move the right people for the right job when they need to) ... but that's one of May's red lines. And until something, anything is agreed, there won't be any agreement on all kinds of things, including on the transfer of data.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 02, 2019, 10:16:08 PM
It sounds good, but 27 other countries have no intention of giving the UK anything to celebrate now or ever imo.

Keeping the 27 together must have been quite a feat.

I'm curious as to how the UK will manage with the WTO 163 and the various other regional blocs within it.

Apparently, the UK will be able to trade on bog-standard WTO terms for goods even with objections from some WTO countries, but thrashing out FTAs could take the UK until somewhere between 2025-2030.

Hardly 1 minute after midnight stuff.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 03, 2019, 06:30:30 AM
What's good? Having the uncertainty of a "good Brexit" possibly happening in 2020?

I've really no idea what a "good Brexit" could possibly be.

Businesses that export to the EU (goods or services) can't wait.

No one seems to be talking about the services industry, but some sectors need FoM (being able to hire or move the right people for the right job when they need to) ... but that's one of May's red lines. And until something, anything is agreed, there won't be any agreement on all kinds of things, including on the transfer of data.

How long do you imagine the process will be delayed while everyone answers more questions?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2019, 07:54:58 AM
How long do you imagine the process will be delayed while everyone answers more questions?

They keep attempting to buy more time for all kinds of waffly reasons.

The EU has stated time and again that if the UK came back with a concrete plan towards an end-point then they'd seriously consider granting an extension for the time needed (people's vote, or whatever). But they've got "Brexit fatigue" as well.

Even if everyone agreed on a deal tomorrow, there may well need to be a short extension in any case simply to get the legislation through.

Then, of course, there are the EU elections in a few months. Technically, if the UK isn't formally out by then, then they'd need to organise the UK side of the elections...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2019, 08:14:24 AM
Interesting on the EU car market...

The top 5 European countries for the demand in cars are Romania, Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Croatia. And the bottom 2 are Ireland and the UK.

Hard to tell, though, how far Brexit is a factor as opposed to simply a vacuum to fill elsewhere.

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1102113861887541249
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 03, 2019, 08:29:34 AM
Interesting on the EU car market...

The top 5 European countries for the demand in cars are Romania, Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Croatia. And the bottom 2 are Ireland and the UK.

Hard to tell, though, how far Brexit is a factor as opposed to simply a vacuum to fill elsewhere.

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1102113861887541249

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2017-full-year-europe-car-sales-per-eu-efta-country/amp/


UK 250000 new car Re 2017....Croatia 50000...UK looks like the second largest car market in the EU after Germany

Your post is factually incorrect... If you look at the graph you have posted it's looking at percentage change not numbers of cars sold

What period are these figures for.. It doesn't seem clear... Now the remainers, are peddling misinformation
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2019, 09:03:20 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2017-full-year-europe-car-sales-per-eu-efta-country/amp/


UK 250000 new car Re 2017....Croatia 50000...UK looks like the second largest car market in the EU after Germany

Your post is factually incorrect... If you look at the graph you have posted it's looking at percentage change not numbers of cars sold

What period are these figures for.. It doesn't seem clear... Now the remainers, are peddling misinformation

Sorry? Yes, I know it's percentage growth. I didn't say it was the number of cars.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 03, 2019, 09:07:06 AM
Interesting on the EU car market...

The top 5 European countries for the demand in cars are Romania, Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Croatia. And the bottom 2 are Ireland and the UK.

Hard to tell, though, how far Brexit is a factor as opposed to simply a vacuum to fill elsewhere.

https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1102113861887541249

You said top five countries for demand in cars.... That is not true ...they are not the top five countries  for demand... and it's one six month window... Yet you complain of brexiteers spreading misinformation
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2019, 09:25:15 AM
You said top five countries for demand in cars.... That is not true ...they are not the top five countries  for demand... and it's one six month window... Yet you complain of brexiteers spreading misinformation

I don't have a problem with what I said, but you clearly do. Would you have preferred growth in demand? Obviously smaller / poorer countries won't have a comparable demand in numbers and the graph clearly states percentage growth.

And, if you noticed, I also said that it wasn't clear how much of that could be attributed to Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 03, 2019, 09:31:29 AM
I don't have a problem with what I said, but you clearly do. Would you have preferred growth in demand? Obviously smaller / poorer countries won't have a comparable demand in numbers and the graph clearly states percentage growth.

And, if you noticed, I also said that it wasn't clear how much of that could be attributed to Brexit.

What you posted just isn't true... I would have preferred the truth.. That's, what I have the problem with... The tweet you link to says.. Everyone else us buying cars.. Just not UK abd Ireland... That isn't true either... Both Norway , Italy, Denmark and Switzerland have seen a decrease..
I'm glad you posted it because it shows the misinformation being spread by remainers ...you should have a problem with misinformation
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2019, 09:38:49 AM
What you posted just isn't true... I would have preferred the truth.. That's, what I have the problem with... The tweet you link to says.. Everyone else us buying cars.. Just not UK abd Ireland... That isn't true either... Both Norway , Italy, Denmark and Switzerland have seen a decrease..
I'm glad you posted it because it shows the misinformation being spread by remainers ...you should have a problem with misinformation

I posted the link to the tweet because I can't find a way of simply copying the graph. I never said I agreed with the tweeter's opinion. He seems to attribute it directly to Brexit, whereas I said that the effect wasn't clear.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 03, 2019, 09:40:27 AM
I posted the link to the tweet because I can't find a way of simply copying the graph. I never said I agreed with the tweeter's opinion. He seems to attribute it directly to Brexit, whereas I said that the effect wasn't clear.

You posted..


The top 5 European countries for the demand in cars are Romania, Hungary, Lithuania, Greece and Croatia. And the bottom 2 are Ireland and the UK.

That is not true.. Those are not fron the tweet... They are your own words
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2019, 09:41:45 AM
Further to  an earlier post:

A Brexit delay of longer than two months could be illegal unless the UK elects new MEPs, lawyers are warning, appearing to torpedo Theresa May’s strategy.

Article 50 cannot be extended beyond the end of May unless the UK takes part in fresh European parliament elections, according to a legal opinion issued by the German Bundestag.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-delay-article-50-theresa-may-european-parliament-meps-a8803546.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2019, 02:04:11 PM

Channel 4 News
‏Verified account @Channel4News

“David Cameron did the dirty on us and then he just skipped ship.”

Following the 2016 referendum, we spoke to voters in the Leave backing Wiltshire village of Broad Chalke. Now, as the clock ticks down to Brexit day, we revisit its residents to find out if opinions have changed.

(video clip)

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1102196085504786439
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: slartibartfast on March 03, 2019, 06:00:43 PM
Not sure if I've already posted this. With all the fuss about the ECJ, someone took the trouble to actually go  through all 89 rulings involving the UK over the past 30 years, summarising them in an entertaining way (IMO).

Thread:
Jim Grace #FBPE
‏ @mac_puck

I recently looked at "all them rules" that the EC imposed on the UK against our will. The Brexiters also like to bewail the tyranny of the ECJ, but usually cannot cite a single judgement. So here are all 89 judgements against HMG over the last 30 years (3 per year😱). Enjoy...
4:45 AM - 6 Feb 2019

https://twitter.com/mac_puck/status/1093158790394978304

A fair number of them are actually about pollution.

A good thread that one.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 03, 2019, 06:59:40 PM
A good thread that one.

I suspect this twitter thread has a similar amount of truth in it as the last one carana posted
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2019, 09:09:37 PM
I suspect this twitter thread has a similar amount of truth in it as the last one carana posted

Take your issue  up with JATO, as that appears to be the source of the graph.
 
JATO Dynamics Ltd is a global supplier of automotive business intelligence with headquarters in Uxbridge, London. JATO has offices in 45 countries and provides automotive intelligence for more than 50 markets.[1][2] JATO was founded in 1984 by Jake Shafran for collecting and supplying competitive business intelligence for automotive manufacturers across Europe.[3] Both trade and business media use JATO as an industry source.[4][5][6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JATO_Dynamics
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 03, 2019, 09:17:24 PM
Take your issue  up with JATO, as that appears to be the source of the graph.
 
JATO Dynamics Ltd is a global supplier of automotive business intelligence with headquarters in Uxbridge, London. JATO has offices in 45 countries and provides automotive intelligence for more than 50 markets.[1][2] JATO was founded in 1984 by Jake Shafran for collecting and supplying competitive business intelligence for automotive manufacturers across Europe.[3] Both trade and business media use JATO as an industry source.[4][5][6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JATO_Dynamics

There's nothing wring with the graph.. It just doesn't support what you claimed it did.. And is further misrepresented by the Twitter post
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 03, 2019, 09:44:19 PM
For any Farage fans... his erm, speech, to CPAC 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv1aMH-qCg0&feature=youtu.be

I've never heard him speak like that before. I find it a bit disturbing, and I can't put my finger on why for the moment.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Admin on March 03, 2019, 10:46:03 PM
For any Farage fans... his erm, speech, to CPAC 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv1aMH-qCg0&feature=youtu.be

I've never heard him speak like that before. I find it a bit disturbing, and I can't put my finger on why for the moment.

He does ramble on somewhat.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 03, 2019, 11:28:59 PM
I hear a rumour that Farage is being investigated for money laundering and may be arrested soon...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 04, 2019, 08:11:45 AM
Leavers’ immigration hopes will be betrayed
March 4 2019, 12:01am,
Clare Foges

The rise in migration from outside the EU shows that the government is not listening to what the British people want


Pull on your walking boots, pack your ginger beer and pay your modest £50 joining fee: later this month Nigel Farage begins a March For Leave protest from Sunderland to Westminster. Cries of “God speed, Nige!” in Hartlepool; blisters tended to in Doncaster; a Blitz-style singalong in Wellingborough. The purpose of Farage’s march? “To tell the Westminster elite we will not be betrayed over Brexit.”

Ah, the B-word. Betrayal. Expect to hear it endlessly over the coming months. Whatever form of Brexit we end up with, Brexiteers will say it betrays the Brexit dream, Remainers that it betrays the British people, young people that it betrays their hopes of a bright future.

In the years to come we also face another mighty wave of betrayed anger: the rage of Leave voters who thought Brexit would cut immigration. Some who campaigned for Leave would rather that the referendum was all about sovereignty (which they consider a high-flown and principled reason) rather than immigration (which they think base and a little racist). Consider Boris Johnson’s recent rather weaselly remarks that he “didn’t say anything about Turkey during the referendum”, despite his multiple mentions of possible Turkish accession to the EU, the letter he wrote to David Cameron in June 2016 saying that “the only way to avoid having common borders with Turkey is to vote leave”, the poster run by his campaign stating that “Turkey (76 million people) is joining the EU”.

Johnson — and Vote Leave — knew full well that voters’ frustration over high levels of immigration was political dynamite. Year after year, when people were asked about the most important issues facing the country, immigration came at or near the top of the list, while Europe barely registered. They were not talking about the perils of “ever-closer union” in the Dog and Duck. The overwhelming public anxiety was about immigration. So when voters were told they could “take back control”, they foresaw a significant fall in numbers.

This is why public opinion on immigration has softened so dramatically since the vote. In June 2016 YouGov found that 56 per cent of people named “immigration and asylum” as one of the top issues facing the country. By last month the figure had tumbled to 27 per cent. What happened? Have all those concerns about mass immigration and its impact on housing and infrastructure just melted away? No. Concern about immigration has softened because people believe Brexit will cut immigration significantly. They trust that the issue is in hand, that numbers are bound to fall.

But figures released last week gave us a clear indication that overall numbers will not fall. While net immigration from the EU has dropped to its lowest level in a decade, net migration from outside the bloc is at its highest since 2004, with 261,000 more non-EU citizens arriving than leaving in the year to September 2018. The Poles and Romanians are simply being replaced by migrants from outside Europe.

Register the significance of this. Non-EU migration is the part that the government has always been able to control. No need to “take back control” of our borders here, we already have it. And yet successive governments have been unwilling or unable to bring the numbers down. Indeed, it seems likely that the non-EU figure will climb farther after Brexit, with visas to the UK used as sweeteners to secure free trade deals. This is not to mention the pressure from business to maintain the flow of low-skilled workers into the UK, wherever they may come from.

So not only does it seem likely that net migration numbers will remain extremely high, it looks as though a higher proportion will come from outside the EU than inside it. This matters for two reasons.

First, financial. Go beyond the stereotypes of feckless Romanians and you find that migrants from the European Economic Area are far more likely to make a net contribution to the UK’s coffers than those from outside it. Last year a report by the Migration Advisory Committee, which advises the government, contained some surprising figures.

The average adult migrant from EU countries contributed about £2,300 more to the UK public finances than the average British adult. The average non-EU migrant contributed about £840 less than the average Briton. This difference is partly explained by the fact that many non-EU citizens bring family dependents with them who do no work. In 2016 nearly a quarter of those who migrated from outside the EU (53,000 people) came to join members of their family.

The second reason is cultural. As uncomfortable as it may be to say, those from outside the EU are more likely to come from countries whose way of life and beliefs differ from British culture in a problematic way; whose attitudes to women, sexuality and secular freedoms jar with our own. Across swathes of Asia, the Middle East and Africa there prevail attitudes that we rightly condemn as backward and misogynistic. Partly as a consequence of this conflict, some who have migrated to the UK from outside the EU have formed communities that turn their backs on mainstream British culture, preferring isolation to integration.

I would suggest that it is for these reasons, rather than bigotry, that the British public show a preference for EU migration over that from outside Europe. In 2017 the London School of Economics conducted a survey of British residents, asking respondents to indicate their preferred level of net immigration from each group, on a sliding scale from zero to 165,000 a year. Middle-class people, the young and Remainers preferred more net immigration overall than the working class, older people and Leavers, but across social classes and ages, across both sides of the referendum divide, all groups indicated that they would prefer more immigrants from the EU than from outside it.

This is not to say that we should close the door on talent beyond Europe’s borders: far from it. Britain needs the skills, energy, kindness and wisdom of people from across the world. But any government purporting to care about “the will of the people” must take the clear views of those people into account. If these views are ignored, and if the overall numbers do not fall, then in this case the word “betrayal” will be well deserved.

@ClareFoges
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 09:16:33 AM
It doesn't look like the UK-US deal is going to be one of the "easiest in history"...
The US administration wants to secure "comprehensive access" for agricultural goods in Britain by reducing or eliminating tariffs. It also wants other barriers to US exports removed.

Scrapping those barriers could open Britain's door to genetically modified crops, animal feed with antibiotics and chlorine-washed chicken products that are banned in the European Union but common in the United States.
Henig said that the United States sees Brexit as an "opportunity to ensure the United Kingdom follows the US approach in areas such as food standards."

That would be politically unpopular in Britain. But it would also be problematic for another reason.
The United Kingdom is hoping to maintain a close trading relationship with the European Union, its biggest trade partner, after Brexit. To do that, it needs to remain aligned with strict EU safety and environmental rules.


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/01/business/us-uk-trade-deal-brexit/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1kfXG8nzB0nPODn8hVvxBOmeJZtya0oSXS7MeCF0-_1qsV7T_Ry52uaBw

Trump has previously warned that the Brexit deal Prime Minister Theresa May negotiated with the European Union, which includes a transitional period of nearly two years, could hinder trade with the United States.

Nothing to do with Farage and the ERG's attempts to thwart a deal, by any chance?

And the US doesn't want the UK to have a deal with China...
The US document also warns Britain that it will take "appropriate action" if the country negotiates a trade deal with a "non-market country" — which experts said is a reference to China.

"It's attempting to allow the United States to withdraw the deal if it doesn't like any agreement the United Kingdom makes with China," said Peter Holmes, a trade expert who teaches economics at the University of Sussex.


Oh... and this bit:
Experts say the tough line taken by the United States reflects the reduced bargaining power the United Kingdom will have once it leaves the European Union.

It will negotiate as a country of 66 million, while the European Union represents a bloc with 500 million citizens. Other countries also know that the United Kingdom will be highly motivated to replace free trade deals it lost because of Brexit.

South Korea and Japan have already indicated they will demand concessions on trade in return for new deals with the United Kingdom to replace those it has as an EU member state.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 04, 2019, 09:28:05 AM
There are, broadly speaking, three reasons for people to come to Britain. To work, stidy or join family. Recently the largest group coming here were Polish, then Indian, Pakistani and Irish. Since the referendum more Polish people have left than have arrived.

Some of the rise in non EU immigration is due to increasing numbers coming here to study. If they are here to study for a degree they will pay between £10,000 and £38,000 for their course. They will also contribute through their living expenses. A lot of them will go home at the end of their studies.

The big difference between EU immigration and non EU immigration is that one cannot be controlled by the British government and the other can.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/february2019
https://www.google.com/search?q=cost+of+uni+for+foreign+students+uk&oq=cost+of+uni+for+foreign+students+uk&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.16376j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 04, 2019, 09:44:10 AM
It doesn't look like the UK-US deal is going to be one of the "easiest in history"...
The US administration wants to secure "comprehensive access" for agricultural goods in Britain by reducing or eliminating tariffs. It also wants other barriers to US exports removed.

Scrapping those barriers could open Britain's door to genetically modified crops, animal feed with antibiotics and chlorine-washed chicken products that are banned in the European Union but common in the United States.
Henig said that the United States sees Brexit as an "opportunity to ensure the United Kingdom follows the US approach in areas such as food standards."

That would be politically unpopular in Britain. But it would also be problematic for another reason.
The United Kingdom is hoping to maintain a close trading relationship with the European Union, its biggest trade partner, after Brexit. To do that, it needs to remain aligned with strict EU safety and environmental rules.


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/01/business/us-uk-trade-deal-brexit/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1kfXG8nzB0nPODn8hVvxBOmeJZtya0oSXS7MeCF0-_1qsV7T_Ry52uaBw

Trump has previously warned that the Brexit deal Prime Minister Theresa May negotiated with the European Union, which includes a transitional period of nearly two years, could hinder trade with the United States.

Nothing to do with Farage and the ERG's attempts to thwart a deal, by any chance?

And the US doesn't want the UK to have a deal with China...
The US document also warns Britain that it will take "appropriate action" if the country negotiates a trade deal with a "non-market country" — which experts said is a reference to China.

"It's attempting to allow the United States to withdraw the deal if it doesn't like any agreement the United Kingdom makes with China," said Peter Holmes, a trade expert who teaches economics at the University of Sussex.


Oh... and this bit:
Experts say the tough line taken by the United States reflects the reduced bargaining power the United Kingdom will have once it leaves the European Union.

It will negotiate as a country of 66 million, while the European Union represents a bloc with 500 million citizens. Other countries also know that the United Kingdom will be highly motivated to replace free trade deals it lost because of Brexit.

South Korea and Japan have already indicated they will demand concessions on trade in return for new deals with the United Kingdom to replace those it has as an EU member state.


So, they are all trying it on again.  "We will only do this if UK does that?"  All of them?  Oh Really.  But stock piling a bit of non perishables wouldn't be a bad idea.  I have always done just this.

The truth is more likely to be that they will all be rushing to sell UK something, anything.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 10:24:30 AM
There are, broadly speaking, three reasons for people to come to Britain. To work, stidy or join family. Recently the largest group coming here were Polish, then Indian, Pakistani and Irish. Since the referendum more Polish people have left than have arrived.

Some of the rise in non EU immigration is due to increasing numbers coming here to study. If they are here to study for a degree they will pay between £10,000 and £38,000 for their course. They will also contribute through their living expenses. A lot of them will go home at the end of their studies.

The big difference between EU immigration and non EU immigration is that one cannot be controlled by the British government and the other can.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/february2019
https://www.google.com/search?q=cost+of+uni+for+foreign+students+uk&oq=cost+of+uni+for+foreign+students+uk&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.16376j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

How is the UK unable to control EU immigration? Is the UK more lax than other EU countries?

FTR, I have both EU and non-EU friends who work hard, pay their dues and contribute to the general good in many ways.

Why are many Leavers saying that foreigners are stealing their jobs? How many Brits sign up to do the sh*tty jobs that someone needs to do? If Brits aren't getting some of the higher paid ones, why not? There's no positive discrimination towards non-Brits that I'm aware of, so is it that they're not necessarily the best people for the job? If so, there may be something wrong with the educational system.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 10:27:25 AM
One Leaver's view:


https://twitter.com/Munir566/status/1101941537133522945
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 10:45:51 AM
So, they are all trying it on again.  "We will only do this if UK does that?"  All of them?  Oh Really.  But stock piling a bit of non perishables wouldn't be a bad idea.  I have always done just this.

The truth is more likely to be that they will all be rushing to sell UK something, anything.

Why would a country not push for its own best interests? The EU (inc the UK) have higher health and safety, environmental and animal welfare standards.

The US is apparently also going for the jugular over the health industry. Between knee-jerk reactions on both sides of Brexit, I'm trying to work out what's going on.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 04, 2019, 10:55:31 AM
Why would a country not push for its own best interests? The EU (inc the UK) have higher health and safety, environmental and animal welfare standards.

The US is apparently also going for the jugular over the health industry. Between knee-jerk reactions on both sides of Brexit, I'm trying to work out what's going on.

The UK does not have to accept anything it doesn't want, for whatever reason.  I bet there is a boat full of all sorts on its way from NewZealand at this moment.  The EU doesn't have a problem with New Zealand and nor did The UK, once upon a time.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 11:03:36 AM
Setting aside hard-nosed trade negotiations / lobbies, for a moment, I find this commentary from the US embassy in London interesting (taking the issue from a different perspective):

https://twitter.com/PoliticsPunked/status/1102155444116774912
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 11:09:17 AM
The UK does not have to accept anything it doesn't want, for whatever reason.  I bet there is a boat full of all sorts on its way from NewZealand at this moment.  The EU doesn't have a problem with New Zealand and nor did The UK, once upon a time.

There is already an agreement with NZ.

On the other hand, a cargo ship set off from the UK to Japan at the end of February, and is unlikely to get there and clear customs prior to March 29. Then what? WTO tariffs and barriers kick in? The ship has to turn back?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 04, 2019, 11:23:42 AM
How is the UK unable to control EU immigration? Is the UK more lax than other EU countries?

FTR, I have both EU and non-EU friends who work hard, pay their dues and contribute to the general good in many ways.

Why are many Leavers saying that foreigners are stealing their jobs? How many Brits sign up to do the sh*tty jobs that someone needs to do? If Brits aren't getting some of the higher paid ones, why not? There's no positive discrimination towards non-Brits that I'm aware of, so is it that they're not necessarily the best people for the job? If so, there may be something wrong with the educational system.

I understood that Freedom of Movement allowed RU citizens to come here at will?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 11:37:47 AM
I understood that Freedom of Movement allowed RU citizens to come here at will?

RU citizens can go to, e.g., France, and anyone can have a holiday home, but under the auspices of "exercising EU rights", if they intend to live there permanently, they need to prove self-sufficiency.

My only caveat to that is something that I haven't  had time to look into - and that's a job-seeker's potential allowance. No idea which country (host or origin) pays for that, nor how long the entitlement may last.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 12:06:02 PM
Will a UK-US trade deal lower food standards in the UK? - BBC Newsnight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=23&v=3vhfqE1eR6E
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 04, 2019, 12:48:54 PM
There is already an agreement with NZ.

On the other hand, a cargo ship set off from the UK to Japan at the end of February, and is unlikely to get there and clear customs prior to March 29. Then what? WTO tariffs and barriers kick in? The ship has to turn back?

It won't.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 04, 2019, 12:55:12 PM
RU citizens can go to, e.g., France, and anyone can have a holiday home, but under the auspices of "exercising EU rights", if they intend to live there permanently, they need to prove self-sufficiency.

My only caveat to that is something that I haven't  had time to look into - and that's a job-seeker's potential allowance. No idea which country (host or origin) pays for that, nor how long the entitlement may last.

It used to be possible to apply for job seekers allowance in UK and then go to France to seek a job, but only for three months.

You don't need to prove self sufficiency unless you apply for a Carte de Sejour, which you don't need anyway.  They don't go around knocking on doors demanding to know if you can support yourself.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 04, 2019, 01:24:19 PM

Back in the old days, 25 years ago, a coupe of couples I know borrowed large sums of money which they deposited in their French Bank Accounts, and then they applied for French. Child Benefits, which they got.  They then paid back the money that they had borrowed.  Child Benefit in France being about three times the size of Britain.  Then they worked on The Black.

I worked on The Black for twenty years, and no one came anywhere near me.

Interestingly, which I had forgotten, I filled in a French Tax Return during all of those years, declaring just 28 Euros a month rent I was receiving for one room in my house.  I inherited the tenant when I bought the house so the Tax Return came with it.
The French Inland Revenue never asked me how I was supporting myself or for details of my bank account.  Needless to say that I never paid any Tax.

The simply aren't interested.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 02:43:33 PM
What Chlorinated Chicken Tells Us About Brexit
https://uktradeforum.net/2017/09/20/what-chlorinated-chicken-tells-us-about-brexit/

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 02:46:40 PM
Nick Dearden of the campaign group Global Justice Now, which has warned about the implications of the UK doing a trade deal with the US, said the EU had heavily restricted the use of chlorine in salad washing several years ago.

“The reason US farmers do it is because their animals are raised in such cramped conditions that the only way to stop them becoming diseased is to dunk them in chlorine,” he said. “It’s really an animal welfare issue here. If UK farmers want to compete against American imports they’ll have to lower standards or go out of business.”

The National Farmers’ Union (NFU) has also raised concerns over food safety and animal welfare standards when future trade deals are negotiated. “It is imperative that any future trade deals, including a possible deal with the US, do not allow the imports of food produced to lower standards than those required of British farmers,” said the NFU president, Minette Batters.

Jim Moseley, the CEO of Red Tractor Assurance, which oversees standards on many British farms, said: “Categorically, the UK’s food standards are now under threat from the commercial appetites of the United States food lobby. We urge the government not to sacrifice legislation which prevents these sort of products from being sold in the UK.

“British people deserve better than having their world-leading food standards sold out from underneath them. Our research shows that shoppers look for food that has been produced to the highest standards of food safety, animal welfare and traceability.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/02/us-ambassador-to-uk-woody-johnson-under-fire-over-defence-of-chlorinated-chicken-post-brexit-jay-rayner
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 02:51:20 PM
Re the US-UK state of affairs, JRM and Gove don't seem to agree... for  the moment.

The Eurosceptic Jacob Rees-Mogg told Sky News the publication of the outline objectives was a “positive first step” to a deal with the US which would be “good for UK consumers as it would open markets to greater competition”.

He said: “It is encouraging that the US wants to move quickly and has made the first move before we have left.”

A change in food standards after Brexit would have ramifications for an open border in Ireland as it would fuel fears that banned goods could seep into the food chain through cross-border production of meat and dairy products.

Gove has held firm on his position that the UK would not compromise on food standards. He has in the past expressed concern about antibiotics used for livestock and bee-harming pesticides, neonicotinoids, used on grain that goes into breakfast cereals and other consumer foods.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/01/us-seeks-greater-access-to-uk-food-markets-after-brexit-trade-deal

ETA:

The truth is, the goal of a trade deal with the US never made economic sense. It was all about politics – the quest for a trophy that could be presented as a benefit of Brexit when, in fact, there are next to none. It didn’t stack up in June 2016, but it is even more absurd now – abandoning the largest ever free trade area, right where we live, for a dictator-coddling would-be autocrat thousands of miles away, who sees us not as a trusted ally but as prey.
Apart from differences of regulation in relation to the use of chlorine to wash chicken and the use of hormones
in
the rearing of cattle, US officials have also recently spoken about barriers in pork production.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/01/brexit-trump-trade-hanoi?CMP=share_btn_tw
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 03:02:26 PM
According to Shanker Singham, chlorine isn't the substance most often used in the US: these days it's peracetic acid.

BBC Newsnight
‏Verified account @BBCNewsnight

“Can I just explain this mythology for one moment, America doesn’t actually chlorinate chicken”

The IEA’s Shanker Singham tells #newsnight that “peracetic acid* is used for the most part and has been approved by the European Food Safety Agency”



Ok, but chlorine or peracetic acid, a broader issue is why either needs to be used on meat in the first place. From what I've been able to gather it's largely due to lower animal welfare standards.

NB: https://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/signature-series/peracetic-acid-in-the-fresh-food-industry/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 04, 2019, 03:31:36 PM
Before I get accused of making things up. :)

Here's the clip I mentiioned of Farage thanking Bannon and Breitbart just after the ref.

It was originally posted by Breitbart, but they keep taking it down for some reason.

https://twitter.com/TrickFreee/status/982171839823687680
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 04, 2019, 05:38:34 PM
There are, broadly speaking, three reasons for people to come to Britain. To work, stidy or join family. Recently the largest group coming here were Polish, then Indian, Pakistani and Irish. Since the referendum more Polish people have left than have arrived.

Some of the rise in non EU immigration is due to increasing numbers coming here to study. If they are here to study for a degree they will pay between £10,000 and £38,000 for their course. They will also contribute through their living expenses. A lot of them will go home at the end of their studies.

The big difference between EU immigration and non EU immigration is that one cannot be controlled by the British government and the other can.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/february2019
https://www.google.com/search?q=cost+of+uni+for+foreign+students+uk&oq=cost+of+uni+for+foreign+students+uk&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.16376j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Maybe this is why EU immigrants are net contributors and non EU immigrants aren’t. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 08, 2019, 02:11:32 PM
Nick Dearden of the campaign group Global Justice Now, which has warned about the implications of the UK doing a trade deal with the US, said the EU had heavily restricted the use of chlorine in salad washing several years ago.

“The reason US farmers do it is because their animals are raised in such cramped conditions that the only way to stop them becoming diseased is to dunk them in chlorine,” he said. “It’s really an animal welfare issue here. If UK farmers want to compete against American imports they’ll have to lower standards or go out of business.”

The National Farmers’ Union (NFU) has also raised concerns over food safety and animal welfare standards when future trade deals are negotiated. “It is imperative that any future trade deals, including a possible deal with the US, do not allow the imports of food produced to lower standards than those required of British farmers,” said the NFU president, Minette Batters.

Jim Moseley, the CEO of Red Tractor Assurance, which oversees standards on many British farms, said: “Categorically, the UK’s food standards are now under threat from the commercial appetites of the United States food lobby. We urge the government not to sacrifice legislation which prevents these sort of products from being sold in the UK.

“British people deserve better than having their world-leading food standards sold out from underneath them. Our research shows that shoppers look for food that has been produced to the highest standards of food safety, animal welfare and traceability.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/02/us-ambassador-to-uk-woody-johnson-under-fire-over-defence-of-chlorinated-chicken-post-brexit-jay-rayner

Scare mongering...

 “It’s really an animal welfare issue here. If UK farmers want to compete against American imports they’ll have to lower standards or go out of business.”



Nice he only gives two choices- we could also increase productivity to meet demand?  more jobs etc..
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 08, 2019, 06:45:00 PM
Well said, Theresa May. Delay just means continued uncertainty and politicians must take note that Brexit doesn't belong to Parliament, it belongs to the country.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 08, 2019, 11:00:21 PM
Well said, Theresa May. Delay just means continued uncertainty and politicians must take note that Brexit doesn't belong to Parliament, it belongs to the country.

And those who cared enough about their country voted! AND they voted to leave! &^^&*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 09, 2019, 08:09:56 AM
Many years ago Mark Twain said "If voting made a difference, they wouldn't let us do it". It seems David Cameron made an error of judgement by instigating the referendum because that vote did mmake a difference; hence the desperate attempts to overturn the result.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 09, 2019, 06:54:14 PM
Many years ago Mark Twain said "If voting made a difference, they wouldn't let us do it". It seems David Cameron made an error of judgement by instigating the referendum because that vote did mmake a difference; hence the desperate attempts to overturn the result.

And this is why it is all awful.  Who the hell do the people think you all are.

I don't care anymore. Be b....red.  I am fine exactly where I am..I cannot begin to understand why I cared in the first place.

I did think briefly that Britain might get back its pride.  But not much chance of that now.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 10, 2019, 01:30:58 PM
Many years ago Mark Twain said "If voting made a difference, they wouldn't let us do it". It seems David Cameron made an error of judgement by instigating the referendum because that vote did mmake a difference; hence the desperate attempts to overturn the result.
8)-))) Indeed!

And look what the  EU beaurocrats did in Ireland- twice they voted against the EU and TWICE they were  erm overruled...

Britain isn't quite a push over ...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 01:58:18 PM

From today’s Sunday Times:

It is a belief that some pro-Europeans already hold dear, but a group of scientists now claim to have confirmed it: Brexit voters are less bright than remainers.

Researchers gave 11,225 volunteers psychological tests before the referendum and asked how they intended to vote. Results suggest that leavers tended to be less numerate, more impulsive and more prone to accept the unsupported claims of authoritarian figures.

“Compared with remain voters, leave voters displayed significantly lower levels of numeracy and appeared more reliant on impulsive thinking,” said the researchers. The study was commissioned by Britain’s Online Privacy Foundation and analysed by scientists at Missouri University.”

*stands well back*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 10, 2019, 02:16:07 PM
From today’s Sunday Times:

It is a belief that some pro-Europeans already hold dear, but a group of scientists now claim to have confirmed it: Brexit voters are less bright than remainers.

Researchers gave 11,225 volunteers psychological tests before the referendum and asked how they intended to vote. Results suggest that leavers tended to be less numerate, more impulsive and more prone to accept the unsupported claims of authoritarian figures.

“Compared with remain voters, leave voters displayed significantly lower levels of numeracy and appeared more reliant on impulsive thinking,” said the researchers. The study was commissioned by Britain’s Online Privacy Foundation and analysed by scientists at Missouri University.”

*stands well back*

 (&^&

 @)(++(*

AND anothe group of scientist said.... oh no wait... another group of 9 scientist actually voted leave. hm  but then they didn't get a change to take part in that study.. dang.

Ok this thing about stats... Seriously.  and phychologist? OMG OK a  a a a a a ay.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 10, 2019, 02:35:10 PM
(&^&

 @)(++(*

AND anothe group of scientist said.... oh no wait... another group of 9 scientist actually voted leave. hm  but then they didn't get a change to take part in that study.. dang.

Ok this thing about stats... Seriously.  and phychologist? OMG OK a  a a a a a ay.
A very intelligent riposte I’m sure.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 07:57:08 AM
From today’s Sunday Times:

It is a belief that some pro-Europeans already hold dear, but a group of scientists now claim to have confirmed it: Brexit voters are less bright than remainers.

Researchers gave 11,225 volunteers psychological tests before the referendum and asked how they intended to vote. Results suggest that leavers tended to be less numerate, more impulsive and more prone to accept the unsupported claims of authoritarian figures.

“Compared with remain voters, leave voters displayed significantly lower levels of numeracy and appeared more reliant on impulsive thinking,” said the researchers. The study was commissioned by Britain’s Online Privacy Foundation and analysed by scientists at Missouri University.”

*stands well back*

The Online Privacy Foundation. An organisation which seeks to show how the internet can be used to manipulate people. They claim to be unbiased but I sense an agenda. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 08:07:11 AM
The Online Privacy Foundation. An organisation which seeks to show how the internet can be used to manipulate people. They claim to be unbiased but I sense an agenda.
Of course you do, but really the research wasn’t necessary.  Leave voters tended to be less well educated and more likely to be in lower paid “blue collar” jobs, and it is a known fact that IQ levels vary dramatically by profession

140 - Top civil servants; professors, and research scientists.
130 - Physicians, surgeons, lawyers, engineers
120 - School teachers, pharmacists, accountants, nurses, stenographers, managers.
110 - Foremen, clerks, telephone operators, salesmen, policemen, electricians.
100 plus - Machine operators, shopkeepers, butchers, welders, sheet metal Workers.
Below 100 - Warehouse men, carpenters, cooks, bakers, small farmers, truck and van Drivers.
90 - Laborers, gardeners, miners, factory packers and sorters.

https://psychologenie.com/average-iq-score
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum

Also IQ declines the older you get and the older you are the more likely you were to have voted leave.
https://medium.com/psyc-406-2015/how-fast-does-iq-decline-can-you-do-anything-about-it-f5ca370d8b62
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 08:42:11 AM
According to the Today programme earlier  the removal of hundreds of billions of pounds out of the UK by banks as a result of Brexit uncertainty will cost us 1% in tax returns or close to £10 billion pounds.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-banks/assets-worth-800-billion-pounds-to-shift-from-uk-to-eu-due-to-brexit-ey-idUKKCN1P10SQ
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-banks/brexit-fallout-on-uk-finance-intensifies-think-tank-idUKKBN1QS00B
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 09:41:10 AM
Of course you do, but really the research wasn’t necessary.  Leave voters tended to be less well educated and more likely to be in lower paid “blue collar” jobs, and it is a known fact that IQ levels vary dramatically by profession

140 - Top civil servants; professors, and research scientists.
130 - Physicians, surgeons, lawyers, engineers
120 - School teachers, pharmacists, accountants, nurses, stenographers, managers.
110 - Foremen, clerks, telephone operators, salesmen, policemen, electricians.
100 plus - Machine operators, shopkeepers, butchers, welders, sheet metal Workers.
Below 100 - Warehouse men, carpenters, cooks, bakers, small farmers, truck and van Drivers.
90 - Laborers, gardeners, miners, factory packers and sorters.

https://psychologenie.com/average-iq-score
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum

Also IQ declines the older you get and the older you are the more likely you were to have voted leave.
https://medium.com/psyc-406-2015/how-fast-does-iq-decline-can-you-do-anything-about-it-f5ca370d8b62

I wonder how many manual workers are hiding theit lights under a bushel like me? I returned to education at the age of 40 and revealed that I had the ability to achieve a 2:1 Honours degree from a University ranked in the UK top ten.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 10:18:11 AM
I wonder how many manual workers are hiding theit lights under a bushel like me? I returned to education at the age of 40 and revealed that I had the ability to achieve a 2:1 Honours degree from a University ranked in the UK top ten.
There are of course numerous exceptions to the rule, but you either accept the generalities that such statistical evidence throws up or you can choose to ignore it.  I don't really care. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 11, 2019, 10:54:21 AM
There are of course numerous exceptions to the rule, but you either accept the generalities that such statistical evidence throws up or you can choose to ignore it.  I don't really care.

Look if you are going to chuck stats accusing people of being DIM. Then do it properly!

Take the voting population of the UK.  do a test on everyone. check the  the stats before Brexit. look at the number who voted- look at how  all Brexit voters faired in the 'test'' and compare it with the remoaners.
Then come back with the results and impress me- untill then  just  @)(++(*

It wasn't really very smart of the many 'more intellegent' remoaners NOT to vote at all... heehee
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 11:30:38 AM
There are of course numerous exceptions to the rule, but you either accept the generalities that such statistical evidence throws up or you can choose to ignore it.  I don't really care.

The whole point of that study was to suggest that those who voted to leave the EU were unfit to decide. Should voting be limited to those who score above a certain level in an IQ test? Thet would be hilarious.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 11:40:58 AM
The whole point of that study was to suggest that those who voted to leave the EU were unfit to decide. Should voting be limited to those who score above a certain level in an IQ test? Thet would be hilarious.
Could you please provide a cite from anyone who has EVER suggested that those who voted Leave were unfit to decide?  Of course everyone legally permitted to vote should be allowed to do so, from the dimmest bulb in the box to the brightest. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 11, 2019, 12:12:25 PM
Could you please provide a cite from anyone who has EVER suggested that those who voted Leave were unfit to decide?  Of course everyone legally permitted to vote should be allowed to do so, from the dimmest bulb in the box to the brightest.

Bit not in a referendum. perhaps;

a fundamental question is raised as to whether direct democracy in the form of binary, winner-takes-all, referendums is an appropriate mechanism for deciding major and complicated political issues, such as constitutional change
https://www.onlineprivacyfoundation.org/opf-research/psychological-biases/personality-authoritarianism-and-cognition-in-brexit/

The inference being that the idiots don't understand what they're doing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 12:28:56 PM
Bit not in a referendum. perhaps;

a fundamental question is raised as to whether direct democracy in the form of binary, winner-takes-all, referendums is an appropriate mechanism for deciding major and complicated political issues, such as constitutional change
https://www.onlineprivacyfoundation.org/opf-research/psychological-biases/personality-authoritarianism-and-cognition-in-brexit/

The inference being that the idiots don't understand what they're doing.
There is a good argument to be made for not letting the general public make decisions of massive national importance, particularly if they are extremely complex and the public is largely ignorant about them, as they were about the EU. 
"A core purpose of referendums is to engage those with relatively low information about the issues, which is to say the general population, in the choice. This makes them especially vulnerable to producing decisions based on false information and/or unrealistic beliefs about what alternatives are possible - often stoked by opportunistic actors within the political system" https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/perspective/referendums.aspx
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 11, 2019, 02:07:40 PM
Of course you do, but really the research wasn’t necessary.  Leave voters tended to be less well educated and more likely to be in lower paid “blue collar” jobs, and it is a known fact that IQ levels vary dramatically by profession

140 - Top civil servants; professors, and research scientists.
130 - Physicians, surgeons, lawyers, engineers
120 - School teachers, pharmacists, accountants, nurses, stenographers, managers.
110 - Foremen, clerks, telephone operators, salesmen, policemen, electricians.
100 plus - Machine operators, shopkeepers, butchers, welders, sheet metal Workers.
Below 100 - Warehouse men, carpenters, cooks, bakers, small farmers, truck and van Drivers.
90 - Laborers, gardeners, miners, factory packers and sorters.

https://psychologenie.com/average-iq-score
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2016-eu-referendum

Also IQ declines the older you get and the older you are the more likely you were to have voted leave.
https://medium.com/psyc-406-2015/how-fast-does-iq-decline-can-you-do-anything-about-it-f5ca370d8b62

I had an IQ of 149 at the age of thirty.  And according to my carers my IQ was pretty impressive at the age of thirteen.  For me this is only to do with Logic.  And ultimately Education,  of which I had none.

My General Knowledge remains suspect.

At the age of eighty, I have no idea of my IQ.  But my Logic remains intact.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 11, 2019, 02:27:59 PM

I only ever cared about Brexit for Britain.  I bailed out a long time ago because I couldn't bare to watch it anymore.

Now?  I really don't care.  The Republic of France has been far more kind to me than Britain ever was.  When I had Tuberculosis I had to fight tooth and claw to stop Britain from taking my children into care in my own best interests.   b....r the children.  Britain ultimately gave me nothing.  No financial help at all.

I sometimes wonder why I thought that Britain will be better off with Brexit.

Britain needs to get its act together and stop pandering to a bunch of unelected bureaucrats.  This is the real problem.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 11, 2019, 05:42:35 PM
One to watch tonight...

Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg is estimated to have earnt £7m from investments since the referendum according to investigation by Channel 4 Dispatches
Category: News Article, News Release
Back to news
11 March 2019
The Brexit Millionaires: Channel 4 Dispatches

Monday 11th March, Channel 4, 8pm

Leading Brexiteer and Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg is estimated to have earnt £7m from one of his investments since the referendum according to an investigation by Channel 4 Dispatches.

In an interview with the programme Conservative MP Mr Rees-Mogg refused to disclose the precise amount he received in dividends from Somerset Capital Management (SCM), the investment firm he set up in 2007. However, an analysis of its accounts shows that in the past two years, the fund has seen profits almost double and it has paid £47m to members over that period.

Mr Rees-Mogg owns at least 15% of the firm which according to one financial expert’s estimate could have put him in line for a pay-out of around £7m since 2016.
Asked if the figure of £7m is accurate, Mr Rees-Mogg told Dispatches: “The amount that I received is not for public disclosure. I’m entitled to the same privacy in my affairs as anyone else in parliament is.”
Mr Rees-Mogg declares in his House of Commons Register of Interests that he is paid £500 an hour for his work at SCM and takes home around £15,000 a month on top of his MPs salary.
SCM invests in emerging markets like China and Russia and one expert said that the fall in the value of the pound since the referendum result has helped SCM’s profits. Mr Rees-Mogg denied that the increase in SCM’s earnings was related to Brexit describing such claims as “living in cloud cuckoo land”.

He also rejected claims that SCM’s decision in the past year to open two new funds in Dublin rather than London had anything to with Brexit. “Our decision to do it predates Brexit,” he told the programme.

MPs earning money from Brexit:

An analysis of the House of Commons register of interests reveals MPs have been in high demand on the speaker’s circuit. Since the referendum 12 MPs have between them made more than £1m on top of their MPs salary from paid speeches.

Dispatches also reveals the amounts some politicians are charging to speak on Brexit. According to one leading agency:

Nick Clegg charges £60,000-£80,000 plus flights from California where he currently works for Facebook
Boris Johnson charges £100,000.
Former Foreign Secretary William Hague was offered at £40-50k
Former Government minister Jo Johnson was the cheapest at £15,000
Conservative Remainer Kenneth Clarke earned almost £14,000 for 2 recent speeches on Brexit
Former Brexit secretary David Davis was recently paid £19,000 for a speech to the City
After he left Downing Street, David Cameron he earnt £120,000 for a speech to Wall Street that talked about Brexit
Since the referendum there has been a sharp uptick in investment in Gold, when May’s Brexit deal was defeated in January one company saw a 116% increase in a 12-hour period.

Gold investment company Glint have a website which clearly states how important Brexit in making gold an attractive investment - it says here at a time when pound looks vulnerable and the stock markets look ‘toppy’ - gold is a financial insurance policy.

Dispatches searched the House of Commons Register of Interests and discovered that one shareholder was none other than the former Brexit Minister – and prominent Brexiteer- Steve Baker. He has at least £70,000 invested in Glint. Within three days of resigning as Brexit Secretary he was on twitter promoting the company.

Funds betting against British businesses:

Dispatches also reveals how some hedge funds have built up huge bets against British business and hoping to make big profits if the economy hits the rocks after Brexit.

Dispatches reveals that the US investment firm Blackrock holds the most bets against British business totalling more than £1bn.  Blackrock has paid former Chancellor and key remain campaigner George Osborne more than a £1m since 2016.

The hedge fund run by leading Brexiteer Crispin Odey is betting almost £500m against British businesses. Odey made more than £200m on the night of the referendum by betting that the value of the pound would plummet.

Dispatches also includes an interview with the celebrated US investor Steve Eisman who correctly predicted the 2008 financial crash and made million by betting against US banks. He was famously portrayed by the actor Steve Carrell in the Oscar-winning film The Big Short.

“I'm short three UK banks...And I am not going to name which ones because it’s not important which ones and just for a very, very simple reason if there is a Brexit the assumption in the investment community there will be a recession in the UK., how bad that recession will be? Nobody has a clue.”

The Brexit Millionaires: Channel 4 Dispatches, Monday 11th March, Channel 4, 8pm
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 11:28:39 AM
Are we on the verge of a May deal?  The AG says the concession May got last night is OK-ish.  What with the ERG and the Labour party do next?  Do they really want a deal, or do they want to thwart May at any cost even if the net result is no Brexit or no deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2019, 12:05:53 PM
Are we on the verge of a May deal?  The AG says the concession May got last night is OK-ish.  What with the ERG and the Labour party do next?  Do they really want a deal, or do they want to thwart May at any cost even if the net result is no Brexit or no deal?

The DUP appear to have rejected this deal. Are 10 Northern Irish MP's dictating what the whole of the United Kingdom can do?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 12:46:36 PM
The DUP appear to have rejected this deal. Are 10 Northern Irish MP's dictating what the whole of the United Kingdom can do?
We'll see at 7pm tonight. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 01:28:50 PM
OK, so the BBC alert I got earlier regarding Geoffrey Cox saying the new deal "lowers the risk" has been revealed to be only part of the story - this man has made it clear he's still against May's deal on legal grounds, so that's it.  Geoffrey has decided the fate of the UK.  Goodbye Mrs May, take your deal and flush it down the toilet. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 04:42:26 PM
OK, so the BBC alert I got earlier regarding Geoffrey Cox saying the new deal "lowers the risk" has been revealed to be only part of the story - this man has made it clear he's still against May's deal on legal grounds, so that's it.  Geoffrey has decided the fate of the UK.  Goodbye Mrs May, take your deal and flush it down the toilet.

I believe it will indeed be goodbye to Mrs. May.
She will surely have to resign?
A general election ?
All that is needed to add more uncertainty. ! IMO
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 04:46:34 PM
Esther McVey was busy at the weekend tweeting fake news...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47523168?fbclid=IwAR16RU0ea2PU_RRb7LPaHBkX1cKHW4d4VdVuXhzlTHUFjSMI8LfPt6oa-jA
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 04:48:42 PM
I believe it will indeed be goodbye to Mrs. May.
She will surely have to resign?
A general election ?
All that is needed to add more uncertainty. ! IMO
She can resign and be replaced by a Brexit Buffoon, no need for a GE.  It's time she passed on the posioned chalice, but who really wants it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 05:02:13 PM
She can resign and be replaced by a Brexit Buffoon, no need for a GE.  It's time she passed on the posioned chalice, but who really wants it?

Well, that  thought hasn't lightened my feeling of doom and gloom !
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 07:57:32 PM
Well it looks like Brexit is never going to happen at this rate.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 12, 2019, 08:27:41 PM
Well it looks like Brexit is never going to happen at this rate.

No deal is the legal defaut.

And that appears to be what the ERG want... Not that any of them has come up with a plan.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 08:37:43 PM
No deal is the legal defaut.

And that appears to be what the ERG want... Not that any of them has come up with a plan.
Parliament will vote against it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 12, 2019, 08:40:41 PM
Brexit is due to happen in 17 days. Parliament can vote for an extension but if the EU refuse they are left with two choices; revoke Article 50 or leave without a deal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 08:42:39 PM
Brexit is due to happen in 17 days. Parliament can vote for an extension but if the EU refuse they are left with two choices; revoke Article 50 or leave without a deal.
Then they will revoke Article 50. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on March 12, 2019, 09:53:50 PM
Then they will revoke Article 50.

Parliament is split and cannot agree anything which renders the default position the only possible outcome. On 29 March the UK will be ejected from the EU regardless of all those Parliamentary tossers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 12, 2019, 10:00:40 PM
Parliament is split and cannot agree anything which renders the default position the only possible outcome. On 29 March the UK will be ejected from the EU regardless of all those Parliamentary tossers.
We’ll see...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 10:04:30 PM
Parliament is split and cannot agree anything which renders the default position the only possible outcome. On 29 March the UK will be ejected from the EU regardless of all those Parliamentary tossers.

I once used the phrase " couldn't give a toss" on the now extinguished Sky forum and was heaped abuse for using such language and told I was a disgrace to my profession for using such language.
However your description of Westminster is very appropriate.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 12, 2019, 10:06:06 PM
We’ll see...
Hopefully sense will prevail.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on March 13, 2019, 12:29:06 AM
I keep on hoping I will wake up from this insane dream I'm having.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2019, 06:26:58 AM
Then they will revoke Article 50.

Thereby demonstraing that they have no more respect for the electorate or for democracy than the Rulers of the Democratic Republic of Congo;

"By ignoring the will of the people, Congo’s rulers invite mayhem"
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/01/26/the-world-should-not-recognise-congos-stolen-election
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 13, 2019, 07:15:38 AM
Thereby demonstraing that they have no more respect for the electorate or for democracy than the Rulers of the Democratic Republic of Congo;

"By ignoring the will of the people, Congo’s rulers invite mayhem"
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/01/26/the-world-should-not-recognise-congos-stolen-election
It will be mayhem if we crash out without a deal in two weeks time.  The country is not prepared for that.  Whatever course of action is taken now it will cause mayhem, perhaps that’s what the ERG wanted all along. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 13, 2019, 08:13:06 AM
Thereby demonstraing that they have no more respect for the electorate or for democracy than the Rulers of the Democratic Republic of Congo;

"By ignoring the will of the people, Congo’s rulers invite mayhem"
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/01/26/the-world-should-not-recognise-congos-stolen-election

Who says they are ignoring the will of the people... It's been some time since the vote.... The will of tbe people may have changed
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2019, 08:44:16 AM
Who says they are ignoring the will of the people... It's been some time since the vote.... The will of tbe people may have changed

It doesn't matter what the people think now.What matters is what they said they wanted when they were asked. That's how a democratic process works. One person one vote one result.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 13, 2019, 10:14:24 AM
It doesn't matter what the people think now.What matters is what they said they wanted when they were asked. That's how a democratic process works. One person one vote one result.

In your opinion.. You say parliament need to enforce the will of the people... Yet you dint know what that will is.... Things have changed... Perhaps the will of the peoples changed
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2019, 11:11:13 AM
I keep on hoping I will wake up from this insane dream I'm having.

You're not alone...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2019, 11:12:01 AM
It will be mayhem if we crash out without a deal in two weeks time.  The country is not prepared for that.  Whatever course of action is taken now it will cause mayhem, perhaps that’s what the ERG wanted all along.

Ditto.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 13, 2019, 11:17:32 AM
In your opinion.. You say parliament need to enforce the will of the people... Yet you dint know what that will is.... Things have changed... Perhaps the will of the peoples changed

Agree.

If people voted for a nice green park in a city centre, then discovered that the company in charge of it was about to dump toxic waste underneath it, should the plan go ahead, or should people be consulted again now that there is more information on which to base a more informed opinion?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on March 13, 2019, 12:26:37 PM
Agree.

If people voted for a nice green park in a city centre, then discovered that the company in charge of it was about to dump toxic waste underneath it, should the plan go ahead, or should people be consulted again now that there is more information on which to base a more informed opinion?

Excellent analogy.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2019, 12:38:58 PM
 The EU are reluctant to allow the UK to participate in the EU Elections and then Brexit. Those Elections begin on 23rd May; ten weeks away. It takes ten weeks minimum to organise another vote by the UK population. I think the 'People's Vote' ship may have sunk.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: slartibartfast on March 13, 2019, 02:36:44 PM
It doesn't matter what the people think now.What matters is what they said they wanted when they were asked. That's how a democratic process works. One person one vote one result.

Using that logic, if everyone changed their minds and the country was 100% remain, we should still leave because that was what they wanted then.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2019, 06:21:55 PM
Using that logic, if everyone changed their minds and the country was 100% remain, we should still leave because that was what they wanted then.

It was quite clear that there would be no going back.

"A once in a g\eneration decision"

"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 13, 2019, 06:41:03 PM
It was quite clear that there would be no going back.

"A once in a g\eneration decision"

"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide"

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517014/EU_referendum_leaflet_large_print.
The government has been thwarted by the opposition, which is led by someone you seem to have a lot of respect for.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 13, 2019, 07:07:04 PM
 @)(++(* love it...

With Theresa’s ‘turd’ deal flushed away, pray for an EU invasion
Marina Hyde
Marina Hyde
We need competency, and quick. Not this bunch of MPs who are finding out in real time the consequences of their actions
 @MarinaHyde
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12.30 GMT Last modified on Wed 13 Mar 2019 18.45 GMT

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 Theresa May speaking in the House of Commons.
 Theresa May speaking in the House of Commons. Photograph: Jessica Taylor/Xinhua/Barcroft Images
“It … sends a message … to the whole world,” croaked Theresa May to the Commons on Tuesday night, “about the sort of country … the United Kingdom will be … in the years and decades ahead.”

Fairly sure the world has got the message by now. They are “up to speed” and “across the detail” of the sort of country the UK is. The question of whether Brexit represented a midlife crisis or the descent into senility appears to have been answered. The land that likes to picture itself as a David Niven world war two movie is in fact a look-away episode of The Jeremy Kyle Show. On close inspection, the “beacon of democracy” turns out to be a bin fire.

Brexit: MPs debate ruling out no-deal exit from EU – Politics live
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By now, you will be aware that the prime minister failed to end her meaningful vote hoodoo, with this sequel to her last attempt – 2Meaningful 2Vote – knocked down by a margin of 149. Amusingly, some are suggesting that Meaningful Vote: Tokyo Drift could yet happen. A free vote on no deal takes place tonight, with potential amendments piling up. May herself ploughs on. It’s as if someone has popped a grey wig on Munch’s The Scream, then cast it in an ITV drama about the female governor of a category-A prison.

Quote of the debate – arguably quote of the entire Brexit – went to a Conservative backbencher by the name of Steve Double. “This is a turd of a deal,” he intoned to the House of Commons, “which has now been taken away and polished, and is now a polished turd. But it might be the best turd that we’ve got.”

For many, the now-reflexive action when they hear this kind of stuff is to inquire “why didn’t u put that on the side of ur bus m8???”. And yet, was Steve’s interjection in the actual chamber the moment that well-worn joke format ascended to its purest – which is to say, its most grotesque – form? Putting turd all over the side of a bus, having half the country vote for it, and then driving this dirty-protest-mobile past every single warning-sign of the past two and a half years has brought us to this particular precipice. Tuesday night’s Commons spectacle reminded me of one of Jonathan Swift’s last poems, about the Irish parliament – specifically this bit:

“Let them, when they once get in,
Sell the nation for a pin;
While they sit a-picking straws,
Let them rave at making laws;
While they never hold their tongue,
Let them dabble in their dung …
We may, while they strain their throats
Wipe our arses with their votes.”


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So yup, pretty much all covered by Dean Swift there back in the 1730s, right down to Theresa May’s strained throat. However unique this moment might feel, I suppose we must remember that politicians have been letting down their people for centuries and centuries.

Even so, the abysmal calibre of those in whose hands we’re in can feel remarkable. Nigel Dodds! Have you beheld Nigel? If you didn’t know he was the deputy leader of the DUP, you’d say he has the face of a head of geography who has been suspended pending an investigation into accusations he struck a pupil. Or perhaps you prefer Boris Johnson, who stood up to urge to parliament to “behave as a great country”. Says the guy who’s been behaving like a complete country since prep school. According to that guy, no deal is “the only safe path to self–respect”. Boris Johnson showing you the only safe path to self-respect is like Paul Burrell showing you the only safe path to dignity, or Hannibal Lecter showing you the only safe path home. With his elite-busting reference to “Carthaginian terms”, Boris is entirely of a piece with Jacob Rees-Mogg, who on Tuesday tweeted simply: “Dies irae, dies illa”. To read fan replies humbly begging “give us a clue Jacob!” (in vain) is to be reminded that all populists secretly hate their people; but these two do it openly.

 Jeremy Corbyn leaving his home in north London.
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 ‘Corbyn now seems to be back to pushing his phantom Brexit deal, as opposed to the second referendum he briefly suggested was Labour policy.’ Photograph: Luke Dray/Getty Images
Fans of sledgehammer imagery, meanwhile, may care to note that disgraced former Conservative politician Jeffrey Archer was sitting in the public gallery on Tuesday night, while disgraced former Labour member Fiona Onasanya became the first MP to vote while wearing an electronic tag. Four decades of gathering uselessness and mendacity had brought us to this occasion, to which we might as well picture Archer and Onasanya as bookends.

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If it feels unfair to lump most of the House of Commons in together, please don’t let it. It must not be forgotten that MPs voted 498 to 114 to trigger article 50 two years ago, apparently without a clue what the predictable implications of negotiating against the clock with a much stronger opponent were. Most of those 498 MPs are a reminder than no one in this country should ever suffer from impostor syndrome again. I really do hope to see as many of them as possible at the eventual public inquiry.

The story of Brexit since the referendum has in large part been the story of politicians finding out in real time what the thing they had already done actually meant, then deferring the admission or even acceptance of it. We hear a lot about low-information voters, but low-information politicians are the bigger problem. Even this week, Tory Brexiteers Esther McVey and Daniel Kawczynski were spreading arrant lies about enforced joining of the euro. It is traditional at these moments to ask if the politicians in question are stupid or liars; in the case of Esther and Daniel, the question is moot as they are both.

Westminster has become so unmoored from reality that half of its denizens can’t even remember which lie they told. In the wake of May’s defeat, Tory deputy chairman James Cleverly informed the BBC that she had “inherited this job”, like it was some loss-making family business May had sportingly tried to make a go of, as opposed to the position of prime minister, which she’d remorselessly pursued, to the point of having been too self-interested to even fight for her side in the referendum.

 Britain’s reality right now: we have no functioning government
Jonathan Freedland
Jonathan Freedland
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On the other side of the house, meanwhile, sat Jeremy Corbyn, who famously wanted to trigger article 50 before anyone else, on the very day after the referendum. Yet on Tuesday he was wittering at the prime minister: “The clock has been run out on her!” Corbyn now seems to be back to pushing his phantom Brexit deal, as opposed to the second referendum he briefly suggested was Labour policy. I know rebelling against the leadership is Corbyn’s comfort zone, but it does make you look a historic tit when you are the leadership.

As for what happens next, one Tory MP judged: “f..k knows”. Welcome to f..kknowsville. Population: us. In Westminster, an MP leaving the ERG meeting had called the mood “realistic” before adding: “but the question is, what is reality?” No. The question is, what is this complete bollocks? Morpheus, but if he was the member for Wycombe? In the north, Nigel Farage’s Leave Means Leave army girds itself to march south from Sunderland to London. And in Brussels, one EU diplomat warned ominously that “behind the scenes people are increasingly saying it is better to call it quits”, which is diplomatic speak for “so completely done with the UK’s shit”.

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We might as well play out with former Brexit secretary David Davis, whose appearance before the eventual inquiry will, I fantasise, be lengthy and sensationally uncomfortable. “If we walk away,” David breezed breezily on Tuesday, shortly before U-turning and voting for a deal he had spent months pissing all over, “What can they do? They cannot invade you, can they?” More’s the pity. If only there was an option for “invasion by competent people”. They don’t have to be FROM the continent, but they do have to BE continent.

• Marina Hyde is a Guardian columnist
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 13, 2019, 07:23:18 PM
NO NO DEAL. Albeit by a majority of 4.  Anyone want to buy a cellarful of baked beans?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2019, 07:47:58 PM
NO NO DEAL. Albeit by a majority of 4.  Anyone want to buy a cellarful of baked beans?

Just a minute.........
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 13, 2019, 08:04:50 PM
Just a minute.........
....?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2019, 09:20:33 PM
The default position is still to leave without a deal on 29th March. The vote tonight has no power to change that, it's the law. They will now vote on an extension to Article 50. If they vote in favour of an extension and the EU refuses to grant it we will leave on 29th March without a deal.

France in particular has said it won't agree to an extension unless the UK is clear about what it actually wants rather than what it doesn't want. All it takes is one country to oppose an extension for it to be refused.

It seems to me that Parliament needs to get together and decide what it actually does want instead of  May's deal. They need to send May back with some clear goals. In the absence of that it's difficult not to conclude that their goal is to thwart Brexit altogether and betray the British people and deny them what they voted for. .

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 13, 2019, 09:31:23 PM
The default position is still to leave without a deal on 29th March. The vote tonight has no power to change that, it's the law. They will now vote on an extension to Article 50. If they vote in favour of an extension and the EU refuses to grant it we will leave on 29th March without a deal.

France in particular has said it won't agree to an extension unless the UK is clear about what it actually wants rather than what it doesn't want. All it takes is one country to oppose an extension for it to be refused.

It seems to me that Parliament needs to get together and decide what it actually does want instead of  May's deal. They need to send May back with some clear goals. In the absence of that it's difficult not to conclude that their goal is to thwart Brexit altogether and betray the British people and deny them what they voted for. .
We won’t leave without a deal.  The EU don’t want that and neither does parliament. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 13, 2019, 10:05:26 PM
We won’t leave without a deal.  The EU don’t want that and neither does parliament.

Then Parliament needs to start being positive instead of negative and decide what deal they want. The EU has negotiated a deal but it has also prepared for a no deal.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 13, 2019, 10:08:51 PM
Then Parliament needs to start being positive instead of negative and decide what deal they want. The EU has negotiated a deal but it has also prepared for a no deal.
I agree.  They will end up going for May’s deal or a version of it when the EU offer another slight concession.  IMO.  The main barrier is Labour.  I don’t believe Corbyn and his cronies would ever be able to support May’s deal whatever it looked like, on principle.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2019, 08:11:35 AM
I agree.  They will end up going for May’s deal or a version of it when the EU offer another slight concession.  IMO.  The main barrier is Labour.  I don’t believe Corbyn and his cronies would ever be able to support May’s deal whatever it looked like, on principle.

The time for all this was when they were asked to vote for the Withdrawal Act Why leave it until not the 11th hour, but the 11th hour and 55 minutes?.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 14, 2019, 08:20:58 AM
The time for all this was when they were asked to vote for the Withdrawal Act Why leave it until not the 11th hour, but the 11th hour and 55 minutes?.
A looming deadline always helps to sharpen the mind.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 14, 2019, 08:46:12 AM
The default position is still to leave without a deal on 29th March. The vote tonight has no power to change that, it's the law. They will now vote on an extension to Article 50. If they vote in favour of an extension and the EU refuses to grant it we will leave on 29th March without a deal.

France in particular has said it won't agree to an extension unless the UK is clear about what it actually wants rather than what it doesn't want. All it takes is one country to oppose an extension for it to be refused.

It seems to me that Parliament needs to get together and decide what it actually does want instead of  May's deal. They need to send May back with some clear goals. In the absence of that it's difficult not to conclude that their goal is to thwart Brexit altogether and betray the British people and deny them what they voted for. .

LOL That's what the EU has been saying for quite some time...

An extension, ok, but what's the purpose, the plan and the time schedule? If it's just to carry on playing silly b*ggers in Parliament, the EU has other matters to tend to. As does the UK.

Frankly, it's a bit like toddlers who come up with any excuse possible to avoid going to bed...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 14, 2019, 08:52:02 AM
The default position is still to leave without a deal on 29th March. The vote tonight has no power to change that, it's the law. They will now vote on an extension to Article 50. If they vote in favour of an extension and the EU refuses to grant it we will leave on 29th March without a deal.

France in particular has said it won't agree to an extension unless the UK is clear about what it actually wants rather than what it doesn't want. All it takes is one country to oppose an extension for it to be refused.

It seems to me that Parliament needs to get together and decide what it actually does want instead of  May's deal. They need to send May back with some clear goals. In the absence of that it's difficult not to conclude that their goal is to thwart Brexit altogether and betray the British people and deny them what they voted for. .

Seriously?

https://twitter.com/MichelBarnier/status/1104052367274713088
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2019, 10:04:43 AM
Seriously?

https://twitter.com/MichelBarnier/status/1104052367274713088

When it comes to democracy I'm deadly serious, I assure you. A vote took place and a result was delivered. Those who lost and those who have changed theit minds should shut up. It's done, they lost and they should accept that instead of screaming like spoiled children.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 14, 2019, 12:59:16 PM
When it comes to democracy I'm deadly serious, I assure you. A vote took place and a result was delivered. Those who lost and those who have changed theit minds should shut up. It's done, they lost and they should accept that instead of screaming like spoiled children.

Ok, but then we're back to this...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7436.msg515346#msg515346
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 14, 2019, 01:08:06 PM
Changing the subject somewhat, I have had a really interesting morning during which I applied for renewal of Assistance with my French Health Insurance at The Caisse de Maladie.

Had to go to The Hotel de Impot for some proof as to why I haven't received a  bill for The Tax Fonciere for five years.  Too old and too broke apparently, so two reasons.  The latter due to my British State Pension.  The former because I am over seventy five.

Took back the proof to The Caisse de Maladie and got The Cheque for the whole year on the spot as she didn't want me to have to wait for it arriving in the post.  So that's done and dusted for the next year.

This really nice lady fell about laughing over Brexit, and I joined in.

Everyone I had to speak to spoke better English than is my French, but mainly because they would rather practice their English on me than let me practice my French on them.  It is ever thus these days.

At all times I received  extraordinary kindness and good manners, something that still leaves me stunned, even after twenty five years.

At no point was I asked to produce a Carte de Sejour.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 14, 2019, 01:44:00 PM
When it comes to democracy I'm deadly serious, I assure you. A vote took place and a result was delivered. Those who lost and those who have changed theit minds should shut up. It's done, they lost and they should accept that instead of screaming like spoiled children.

Looking at it from this side of The Channel I do have a sneaky suspicion that The Referendum was very badly worded, mainly because Cameron never expected to lose.  But, of course, it is much more convoluted.

But Britain does have a right to Leave, probably only by crashing Out.  The EU was never going to make it easy.  But it's all in my head and very difficult to explain in words of one syllable.

Britain got stitched up back in the 70s.  And De Galle never wanted Britain in anyway.  So much for gratitude.

I inadvertently finished up living in France, which has always treated me better than Britain ever did, so I have lost track of whose side I should be on.  What price the misbegotten land of one's birth?

But I am only talking about France.  I don't know about Germany, or any of the other States who were allowed to join when they were only going to be a liability.  This stinks of a European Army to me.  Not that I think a European Army would be much cop. They weren't any good the last time around.  And we all know where that one went.

So, sadly, I have finally given up on Britain which grieves me more than any of you could know.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 14, 2019, 03:48:19 PM
When it comes to democracy I'm deadly serious, I assure you. A vote took place and a result was delivered. Those who lost and those who have changed theit minds should shut up. It's done, they lost and they should accept that instead of screaming like spoiled children.

Is it legally possible for the UK to leave and keep an open border in Ireland.. I dint think it is
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 14, 2019, 05:25:01 PM
Is it legally possible for the UK to leave and keep an open border in Ireland.. I dint think it is

Southern Ireland must be laughing its socks off.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 14, 2019, 05:53:20 PM
Southern Ireland must be laughing its socks off.
I doubt it.  Brexit will probably be a disaster for them too.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 14, 2019, 07:05:19 PM
I doubt it.  Brexit will probably be a disaster for them too.

I can't be bothered to reply.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 14, 2019, 07:06:34 PM
I can't be bothered to reply.
ok
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2019, 07:33:26 PM
Ok, but then we're back to this...
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7436.msg515346#msg515346

It's just opinion. No-pne really knows how things will pan out when we leave.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 14, 2019, 07:41:29 PM
ok

Sorry, Love.  I don't care anymore.  I only wish that I did.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2019, 07:44:16 PM
Is it legally possible for the UK to leave and keep an open border in Ireland.. I dint think it is

We signed a Treaty with Ireland saying we wouldn't create a boder between NI and the Republic. The EU won't allow an open border though.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 14, 2019, 08:05:02 PM
We signed a Treaty with Ireland saying we wouldn't create a boder between NI and the Republic. The EU won't allow an open border though.

Then we can't have Brexit...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 14, 2019, 08:06:17 PM
Sorry, Love.  I don't care anymore.  I only wish that I did.
I veer between caring a lot and then not caring at all.  The whole thing is very fatiguing, I wish it was all over.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 14, 2019, 08:15:34 PM
Then we can't have Brexit...

Hence the backstop which the DUP won't accept. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 14, 2019, 08:38:53 PM
Hence the backstop which the DUP won't accept.

Hence no solution
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 14, 2019, 10:15:43 PM
I veer between caring a lot and then not caring at all.  The whole thing is very fatiguing, I wish it was all over.

Possibly the feelings of most!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: barrier on March 15, 2019, 09:03:04 AM
We signed a Treaty with Ireland saying we wouldn't create a boder between NI and the Republic. The EU won't allow an open border though.

There in lies the problem imo with the eu,two nations have an agreement but this agreement can't be allowed because the eu say so.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 15, 2019, 09:44:45 AM
There in lies the problem imo with the eu,two nations have an agreement but this agreement can't be allowed because the eu say so.

The EU have the right to enforce their borders. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and therefore can't expect to have open access to the EU any more than the UK can if Brexit occurs. A semsible solution might be to redefine the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic so that it avoids cutting through people's properties. Unfortunately the words 'sensible solution' appear to be alien concepts to the people in this area imo. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 15, 2019, 05:59:52 PM
The EU have the right to enforce their borders. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and therefore can't expect to have open access to the EU any more than the UK can if Brexit occurs. A semsible solution might be to redefine the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic so that it avoids cutting through people's properties. Unfortunately the words 'sensible solution' appear to be alien concepts to the people in this area imo.
What difference would that make?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 15, 2019, 08:31:13 PM
What difference would that make?

If the UK leave the EU Northern Ireland will go too and there will have to be border checks in the end. Otherwise goods and people will get in and out through the gap. Arranging a manageable border might be a good idea.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 15, 2019, 10:31:25 PM
If the UK leave the EU Northern Ireland will go too and there will have to be border checks in the end. Otherwise goods and people will get in and out through the gap. Arranging a manageable border might be a good idea.
Ireland both North and South do not want border controls, that is the whole point.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 16, 2019, 01:52:29 PM
Ireland both North and South do not want border controls, that is the whole point.

That, to me, seems unrealistic. If they want an open border then either the Republic should leave the EU or Northern Ireland should leave the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 16, 2019, 06:44:38 PM
That, to me, seems unrealistic. If they want an open border then either the Republic should leave the EU or Northern Ireland should leave the UK.
Northern Ireland does not wish to leave either the UK or the EU.  Why should they have to choose between the two?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 17, 2019, 03:59:36 PM
Northern Ireland does not wish to leave either the UK or the EU.  Why should they have to choose between the two?

Why should the rest of the UK have to be inconvenienced by the intractable desires of just 3% of it's population?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on March 17, 2019, 04:35:59 PM
Why should the rest of the UK have to be inconvenienced by the intractable desires of just 3% of it's population?

You could also ask why Ireland, Scotland & Wales have to comply with the votes cast by the English. Is one country in the Union allowed to override the wishes of the other three?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 17, 2019, 05:23:26 PM
Why should the rest of the UK have to be inconvenienced by the intractable desires of just 3% of it's population?
Why should the EU be inconvenienced by the intractable desires of just one of 28 member states?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 18, 2019, 09:16:56 PM
You could also ask why Ireland, Scotland & Wales have to comply with the votes cast by the English. Is one country in the Union allowed to override the wishes of the other three?

You mean 'England' not 'the English' surely? We all live in the same sovereign state; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and we are all ruled by the same Parliament. That's why we are all entitled to vote in Parliamentary Elections and referendums.   
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on March 18, 2019, 11:44:31 PM
You mean 'England' not 'the English' surely? We all live in the same sovereign state; the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and we are all ruled by the same Parliament. That's why we are all entitled to vote in Parliamentary Elections and referendums.

Yes, sorry, I meant England. UK Parliament may have overall control but each country in the Union does not have an equal share in decision-making.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 19, 2019, 12:48:46 AM
That, to me, seems unrealistic. If they want an open border then either the Republic should leave the EU or Northern Ireland should leave the UK.


Belfast Child (Simple Minds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNzuW5LzI6c
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 19, 2019, 07:26:29 AM
Yes, sorry, I meant England. UK Parliament may have overall control but each country in the Union does not have an equal share in decision-making.

As Mhairi Black voiced so passionately in Westminster recently , this is not a union of equals.
She may not be everyone's cup of tea, but she certainly reflects the feelings of many Scots at this time.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 19, 2019, 03:04:15 PM
Yes, sorry, I meant England. UK Parliament may have overall control but each country in the Union does not have an equal share in decision-making.

Each region has the number of constituencies commensurate with it's size, but it's not as simple as that.

The constituences are 533 constituencies in England,59 in Scotland, 40 in Wales, and 18 in Northern Ireland. However. The representatives elected don't need to belong to the country where the constiruency is situated. Scottish people representing English constituences, for exanple, are likely to consider Scottish interests when involved in decision making.
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/53041/1/Richard%20Berry-democraticaudit.com-MPs_are_much_less_local.pdf 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 19, 2019, 07:29:24 PM
Each region has the number of constituencies commensurate with it's size, but it's not as simple as that.

The constituences are 533 constituencies in England,59 in Scotland, 40 in Wales, and 18 in Northern Ireland. However. The representatives elected don't need to belong to the country where the constiruency is situated. Scottish people representing English constituences, for exanple, are likely to consider Scottish interests when involved in decision making.
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/53041/1/Richard%20Berry-democraticaudit.com-MPs_are_much_less_local.pdf

Scotland is not a region.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 19, 2019, 11:05:31 PM
Each region has the number of constituencies commensurate with it's size, but it's not as simple as that.

The constituences are 533 constituencies in England,59 in Scotland, 40 in Wales, and 18 in Northern Ireland. However. The representatives elected don't need to belong to the country where the constiruency is situated. Scottish people representing English constituences, for exanple, are likely to consider Scottish interests when involved in decision making.
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/53041/1/Richard%20Berry-democraticaudit.com-MPs_are_much_less_local.pdf

Scotland, England and Wales are all countries. I'm not sure what Northern Ireland is. None of them, however are sovereign states. They are all regions of the sovereign state of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 19, 2019, 11:10:13 PM
Ten days to go and the decision on the future of the UK now rests with the EU, thanks to our incompetent politicians.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 19, 2019, 11:13:20 PM
Scotland, England and Wales are all countries. I'm not sure what Northern Ireland is. None of them, however are sovereign states. They are all regions of the sovereign state of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Scotland, England and Wales are countries, not regions.  I have never heard of England being referred to as a region before.

region
/ˈriːdʒ(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
an area, especially part of a country or the world having definable characteristics but not always fixed boundaries.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 19, 2019, 11:15:58 PM
Scotland, England and Wales are all countries. I'm not sure what Northern Ireland is. None of them, however are sovereign states. They are all regions of the sovereign state of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Hopefully in the case of my much beloved nation, and within my grand childrens lifetime Scotland will not be just a REGION !
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 19, 2019, 11:16:56 PM
Scotland, England and Wales are countries, not regions.  I have never heard of England being referred to as a region before.

region
/ˈriːdʒ(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
an area, especially part of a country or the world having definable characteristics but not always fixed boundaries.

Thank you
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 19, 2019, 11:22:37 PM
And, for the avoidance of doubt, Northern Ireland is also a country.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on March 19, 2019, 11:25:03 PM
Ten days to go and the decision on the future of the UK now rests with the EU, thanks to our incompetent politicians.

Parliament is an absolute disgrace, I'm so ashamed of this country (UK) as it has become the laughing stock of the world.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 19, 2019, 11:26:21 PM
This might aid future discussion on the subject of countries, regions and sovereignty



United Kingdom   
Edit
Although not sovereign states, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are countries (depending on context), which collectively form the United Kingdom—a sovereign state that is also commonly referred to as a country. The United Kingdom is a Union of four separate countries brought about by a series of international treaties and legislated for by several Acts of Union. These include the Acts of Union 1707 in both the English and Scottish parliaments, although by then England and Wales had already united. While a political Union was created, Scotland and England retained distinct churches, legal systems and education systems, as a result, the issue of sovereignty is different in the two countries: in Scotland sovereignty lies with the people, whereas in England sovereignty lies with Parliament and the Monarch.[10][citation needed] Lord President (Lord Cooper) stated that "the principle of the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle which has no counterpart in Scottish Constitutional Law", and that legislation contrary to the Act of Union would not necessarily be regarded as constitutionally valid.[
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 19, 2019, 11:29:28 PM
Parliament is an absolute disgrace, I'm so ashamed of this country (UK) as it has become the laughing stock of the world.
It’s been jolly entertaining though!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on March 19, 2019, 11:32:59 PM
If the UK leave the EU Northern Ireland will go too and there will have to be border checks in the end. Otherwise goods and people will get in and out through the gap. Arranging a manageable border might be a good idea.

There's no such thing, the border was porous even when all minor crossings were physically blocked and the UDR and police manned checkpoints at all main crossings. You cannot stop smuggling across the Irish border so electronic controls and spot checks are the only possible solution.

The backstop has been a false flag from day one. The UK will never create a hard border in Ireland ever again and the Irish couldn't do it which leaves the EU and they are hardly in a position to do it either.  Maybe someone with some common sense in our government will eventually get it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on March 19, 2019, 11:41:16 PM
Northern Ireland does not wish to leave either the UK or the EU.  Why should they have to choose between the two?

Actually only 35% of the NI electorate voted to REMAIN in the EU.  Incidentally only 40% of Scots electorate voted to REMAIN which makes a nonsense of the rubbish being constantly spouted by the nationalist Sinn Féin and SNP who claim the majority of N Irish and Scots wanted to remain in the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 19, 2019, 11:55:30 PM
Actually only 35% of the NI electorate voted to REMAIN in the EU.  Incidentally only 40% of Scots electorate voted to REMAIN which makes a nonsense of the rubbish being constantly spouted by the nationalist Sinn Féin and SNP who claim the majority of N Irish and Scots wanted to remain in the EU.
Please cite the percentages of the Scottish and NI electorate that voted to LEAVE please.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on March 20, 2019, 12:29:53 AM
Please cite the percentages of the Scottish and NI electorate that voted to LEAVE please.

Enjoy
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 20, 2019, 07:23:42 AM
Enjoy
LOL
In England 62% of the electorate either voted to remain or were either unable or unwilling to vote.   And your point is?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 20, 2019, 07:37:54 AM
It seems Theresa May has requested a short extension. More squabble time......oh joy!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 20, 2019, 07:40:24 AM
Business cannot prepare for a no-deal Brexit because the consequences will be as unpredictable and chaotic as after the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the government’s budget watchdog has said.

Sir Charlie Bean, the most senior macroeconomist at the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), compared the consequences of no deal to the start of the financial crisis in 2008 during testimony to MPs yesterday.

“The thing about these sorts of disruptive events is that it’s easy to talk about them in the abstract, but working out how they permeate through the economy is almost completely impossible,” he said. “It’s exactly like the aftermath of the collapse of Lehman’s. There are a lot of linkages you don’t realise until you’re living through it. In that sense, there is almost nothing a company can do to prepare for it.”

Well exactly!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 20, 2019, 08:44:40 AM
Our politicians have created the situation we find ourselves in, despite their claims to care about the economy, businesses and jobs. We need a new lot if we're going to have to run the UK ourselves imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 20, 2019, 09:41:21 AM
Our politicians have created the situation we find ourselves in, despite their claims to care about the economy, businesses and jobs. We need a new lot if we're going to have to run the UK ourselves imo.
Replace experienced politicians (who are crap) with inexperienced politicians (who may be even worse).  What a choice.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 20, 2019, 10:42:29 AM
Replace experienced politicians (who are crap) with inexperienced politicians (who may be even worse).  What a choice.

Perhaps the answer id to change the voting system to one which would require them to learn how to cooperate. The system we have now fosters adversiity. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 20, 2019, 11:36:22 AM
Perhaps the answer id to change the voting system to one which would require them to learn how to cooperate. The system we have now fosters adversiity.
Get rid of party politics altogether and have all MPs standing as independents.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 20, 2019, 11:38:57 AM
.
   https://www.ft.com/content/016171be-4a74-11e9-8b7f-d49067e0f50d?fbclid=IwAR1MSRiFPg8NyKUaK_pAuPoyFeQDD6Rk_0ORHVmAj8miITmZ032eE6bcAYM

   UK to lose £1tn of financial assets to Europe due to Brexit
Banks and investors forced to finalise plans only days from set departure date

London’s future trading relationship with the EU is still in question © Wael Alreweie/Dreamstime
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Stephen Morris in London 8 HOURS AGO Print this page118
Financial services companies have committed to move about £1tn of assets out of the UK into Europe as the industry triggers its worst-case contingency plans with no Brexit deal in sight, according to consultancy EY.

The estimate by EY — which mainly covers client assets and cash moved out of the UK by banks and fund managers as well as the transfer of balance sheets as operations are relocated — has increased by £200bn since the last survey in January.

Banks and investors are now being forced to finalise plans only days from the Brexit deadline, with London’s future trading relationship with the EU still in question after Theresa May failed for a second time to secure parliamentary approval for her deal last week. She now faces having to ask Brussels for an extension to Brexit, causing added uncertainty for businesses in the UK.

The number of jobs likely to move to the continent has remained steady at about 7,000, according to the EY study, which tracks the public declarations of 222 UK-based financial services firms on their intentions to restructure.

About 2,000 new Europe-based roles have already been created since the June 2016 referendum, the consultancy said.

“The relocation of 7,000 high-paid finance jobs will inevitably hit the UK tax base,” said Omar Ali, EY’s head of financial services. “Even using a conservative estimate . . . the direct loss to the Exchequer from employment taxes would be around £600m. In reality, the average salary and therefore tax loss is likely to be much higher.”

At this stage, only the biggest institutions have made concrete commitments. Three-quarters of the 24 global banks tracked have announced significant relocations of operations to Europe, with Frankfurt the most popular destination with 12 lenders bulking up in the German financial capital.

Paris and Dublin are the next most popular with eight and six banks, respectively, EY said. However, the majority of big banks’ operations remain in London at this point.

On Tuesday, US giant Citigroup said its new broker-dealer in Frankfurt was now fully operational and trading for EU clients instead of London, while Bank of America warned there was no going back on the $400m it had already spent leasing offices and moving people to Paris and Dublin.

Similarly, Barclays was given approval by a UK court to move €190bn of assets to its Irish subsidiary because of what a judge called “continuing uncertainty over . . . a ‘no-deal’ Brexit”.

When the entire range of financial firms is considered, the picture is less clear. As of the end of February, only 39 per cent of the 222 surveyed companies had stated their intentions to relocate some operations to Europe, the new survey showed.

The £1tn figure was reached using the statements of the 23 companies, mainly banks, that have already formally announced a shift of assets out of the UK, which means that the “conservative” figure is likely to continue increasing, according to EY.

“As the 29th of March draws nearer, no financial services businesses can know for sure how a disorderly Brexit will impact them, their clients, people and supply chains or the UK economy,” Mr Ali said. “Continued uncertainty will undoubtedly lead to more assets and people being transferred from the UK.”

On Tuesday Andrea Enria, chair of the ECB’s bank supervisory agency, told the FT that he expected about €1.2tn of assets to be moved to fall under its remit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on March 20, 2019, 11:58:05 AM
Parliament has failed to implement the will of the majority so has to be dissolved.  Time for a General Election and I bet the new third party will wipe the Tories and Labour away. A long time coming imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 20, 2019, 01:44:51 PM
.
   https://www.ft.com/content/016171be-4a74-11e9-8b7f-d49067e0f50d?fbclid=IwAR1MSRiFPg8NyKUaK_pAuPoyFeQDD6Rk_0ORHVmAj8miITmZ032eE6bcAYM

   UK to lose £1tn of financial assets to Europe due to Brexit
Banks and investors forced to finalise plans only days from set departure date

London’s future trading relationship with the EU is still in question © Wael Alreweie/Dreamstime
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Stephen Morris in London 8 HOURS AGO Print this page118
Financial services companies have committed to move about £1tn of assets out of the UK into Europe as the industry triggers its worst-case contingency plans with no Brexit deal in sight, according to consultancy EY.

The estimate by EY — which mainly covers client assets and cash moved out of the UK by banks and fund managers as well as the transfer of balance sheets as operations are relocated — has increased by £200bn since the last survey in January.

Banks and investors are now being forced to finalise plans only days from the Brexit deadline, with London’s future trading relationship with the EU still in question after Theresa May failed for a second time to secure parliamentary approval for her deal last week. She now faces having to ask Brussels for an extension to Brexit, causing added uncertainty for businesses in the UK.

The number of jobs likely to move to the continent has remained steady at about 7,000, according to the EY study, which tracks the public declarations of 222 UK-based financial services firms on their intentions to restructure.

About 2,000 new Europe-based roles have already been created since the June 2016 referendum, the consultancy said.

“The relocation of 7,000 high-paid finance jobs will inevitably hit the UK tax base,” said Omar Ali, EY’s head of financial services. “Even using a conservative estimate . . . the direct loss to the Exchequer from employment taxes would be around £600m. In reality, the average salary and therefore tax loss is likely to be much higher.”

At this stage, only the biggest institutions have made concrete commitments. Three-quarters of the 24 global banks tracked have announced significant relocations of operations to Europe, with Frankfurt the most popular destination with 12 lenders bulking up in the German financial capital.

Paris and Dublin are the next most popular with eight and six banks, respectively, EY said. However, the majority of big banks’ operations remain in London at this point.

On Tuesday, US giant Citigroup said its new broker-dealer in Frankfurt was now fully operational and trading for EU clients instead of London, while Bank of America warned there was no going back on the $400m it had already spent leasing offices and moving people to Paris and Dublin.

Similarly, Barclays was given approval by a UK court to move €190bn of assets to its Irish subsidiary because of what a judge called “continuing uncertainty over . . . a ‘no-deal’ Brexit”.

When the entire range of financial firms is considered, the picture is less clear. As of the end of February, only 39 per cent of the 222 surveyed companies had stated their intentions to relocate some operations to Europe, the new survey showed.

The £1tn figure was reached using the statements of the 23 companies, mainly banks, that have already formally announced a shift of assets out of the UK, which means that the “conservative” figure is likely to continue increasing, according to EY.

“As the 29th of March draws nearer, no financial services businesses can know for sure how a disorderly Brexit will impact them, their clients, people and supply chains or the UK economy,” Mr Ali said. “Continued uncertainty will undoubtedly lead to more assets and people being transferred from the UK.”

On Tuesday Andrea Enria, chair of the ECB’s bank supervisory agency, told the FT that he expected about €1.2tn of assets to be moved to fall under its remit.

The Financial Services sector makes up 6.5% of the UK's total economic output. Why is it of sych interest to some?Perhaps because of it's London connection where 50% of the sector is based.
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06193
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 20, 2019, 01:51:34 PM
Parliament has failed to implement the will of the majority so has to be dissolved.  Time for a General Election and I bet the new third party will wipe the Tories and Labour away. A long time coming imo.
Be careful what you wish for.  Jeremy Corbyn to see us out of this mess?  I don’t think so somehow.  And you must be dreaming if a third party would win it at this stage.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 20, 2019, 01:53:35 PM
The Financial Services sector makes up 6.5% of the UK's total economic output. Why is it of sych interest to some?Perhaps because of it's London connection where 50% of the sector is based.
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06193
Are you seeking to downplay  the importance of the financial sector to the economic health of the country? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 20, 2019, 07:27:01 PM
Are you seeking to downplay  the importance of the financial sector to the economic health of the country?

Just mentioning that there's another 93.5% of the economy to think about.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 20, 2019, 08:06:01 PM
Just mentioning that there's another 93.5% of the economy to think about.
And which sectors of the economy do you believe will flourish as a result of a no deal Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on March 20, 2019, 08:50:49 PM
The Financial Services sector makes up 6.5% of the UK's total economic output. Why is it of sych interest to some?Perhaps because of it's London connection where 50% of the sector is based.
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06193

Don't ignore the very sound teachings of Mr Micawber
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 21, 2019, 06:19:50 PM
Will this be the most successful (in terms of signatories);HoC petition of all time?

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/241584

It certainly seems to be outperforming this one

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 21, 2019, 07:11:35 PM
The links don't work for me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 21, 2019, 07:21:14 PM
The links don't work for me.
They do for me.  The first is a link to a Revoke Article 50 petition that has just gone past thr 1.3m signatures and is growing by thousands a minute, the other is for a no deal Brexit which as approx 1 million fewer signatures.

PS: the website appears to have crashed under the weight of visitors. Try agsin later  8(0(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 21, 2019, 08:48:44 PM
100,000 new signatures since I last posted...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 21, 2019, 09:31:10 PM
nearly 1.7 million now.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 21, 2019, 10:16:55 PM
200,000 more signatures in 45 minutes.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 21, 2019, 10:28:24 PM
Crashing out of the EU delayed until 12th April!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 21, 2019, 11:34:25 PM
The links don't work for me.

Does for me and duly signed.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 21, 2019, 11:44:14 PM
I haven’t signed it as despite the fact that I think Brexit is a Very Bad Idea Indeed I think it has to happen come what May (scuse the pun) otherwise we’ll never hear the end of it.  Off the cliff we must go, and let’s just pray that Nigel and Jacob and Boris and Andrea were right and us democracy hating, metropolitan elitist Remoaners were wrong and that everything will be beautiful when we TBC .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on March 21, 2019, 11:54:30 PM
I haven’t signed it as despite the fact that I think Brexit is a Very Bad Idea Indeed I think it has to happen come what May (scuse the pun) otherwise we’ll never hear the end of it.  Off the cliff we must go, and let’s just pray that Nigel and Jacob and Boris and Andrea were right and us democracy hating, metropolitan elitist Remoaners were wrong and that everything will be beautiful when we TBC .

Sorry but those names you have mentioned were very much part of my reasoning to vote to remain.
A ghastly shower in my opinion.

Yes, hopefully all will be as swimmingly wonderful as they predicted.

And the TBC will extend to  Scotland.



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on March 22, 2019, 01:26:10 AM
Does for me and duly signed.
I've signed it too.

If there ever had been any sort of valid case for brexit how on earth could the British Government have made such an arrogant botch up of the negotiations for leaving?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on March 22, 2019, 01:36:32 AM
I haven’t signed it as despite the fact that I think Brexit is a Very Bad Idea Indeed I think it has to happen come what May (scuse the pun) otherwise we’ll never hear the end of it.  Off the cliff we must go, and let’s just pray that Nigel and Jacob and Boris and Andrea were right and us democracy hating, metropolitan elitist Remoaners were wrong and that everything will be beautiful when we TBC .

As I watch things unravel around us I think we have a duty to the generations coming behind us to do what we can to extricate ourselves from this mess.

It was one thing for the Tories to split their party in two over Europe ... it is an entirely different issue to wreck the nation as part of their internecine squabble.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 22, 2019, 07:24:27 AM
Close to 2.5 million signatures now.,,
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2019, 08:24:54 AM
Crashing out of the EU delayed until 12th April!

There is a deal on the table which both Theresa May and the EU say is the only deal there is.  Our MP's have refused to accept it but have failed to offer an alternative they would accept. Unless and until they do that the stalemate will continue.

Revoking Article 50 may appeal to some as a practical solution but in my opinion that would make a mockery of democracy. A vote is a vote and a result is a result. If the House of Commons can accept a decision passed by a majority of four they cannot justify overturning the referendum result.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 22, 2019, 08:30:06 AM
There is a deal on the table which both Theresa May and the EU say is the only deal there is.  Our MP's have refused to accept it but have failed to offer an alternative they would accept. Unless and until they do that the stalemate will continue.

Revoking Article 50 may appeal to some as a practical solution but in my opinion that would make a mockery of democracy. A vote is a vote and a result is a result. If the House of Commons can accept a decision passed by a majority of four they cannot justify overturning the referendum result.
What do you say to those who say that May’s deal is worse than no deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2019, 04:21:13 PM
What do you say to those who say that May’s deal is worse than no deal?

The same as I would say to all of them. Some want to stay in, some want to be half in and half out, some want May's deal, some want no deal and it's impossible for everyone to get what they want. The people voted to leave, so leave. How you do it is up to you, politics is your job. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 22, 2019, 05:50:43 PM
The same as I would say to all of them. Some want to stay in, some want to be half in and half out, some want May's deal, some want no deal and it's impossible for everyone to get what they want. The people voted to leave, so leave. How you do it is up to you, politics is your job.
Well isn’t the “how you do it” bit rather the problem?  Is May’s Deal the will of the people?  Or is No Deal the will of the people?  Is Norway the will of the people or do the prefer Canada Plus?  What should happen next?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 22, 2019, 05:51:29 PM
3.5 million signatures now... that’s around two million more than when I first mentioned it on here yesterday evening.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2019, 08:48:20 PM
Well isn’t the “how you do it” bit rather the problem?  Is May’s Deal the will of the people?  Or is No Deal the will of the people?  Is Norway the will of the people or do the prefer Canada Plus?  What should happen next?

Anything which involves staying in any part of the EU isn't Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 22, 2019, 09:17:12 PM
Anything which involves staying in any part of the EU isn't Brexit.
And yet you seemed so supportive of May’s deal before, how strange.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 22, 2019, 09:33:59 PM
And yet you seemed so supportive of May’s deal before, how strange.

Does it involve staying in the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 22, 2019, 09:43:42 PM
Does it involve staying in the EU?
Ask its many Brexiteer critics, if it involved leaving the EU with no risk of being tied to their rules and regulations forever whilst having no say whatsoever they would have backed it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 23, 2019, 05:17:30 PM
Have you seen the footage of the Anti-Brexit march in London today?  Absolutely massive turnout.  Estimated at a million people and the petition is up to almost 4.5 million.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 23, 2019, 06:35:35 PM
Close to 2.5 million signatures now.,,

Over 4.5 million now...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 23, 2019, 06:52:55 PM
Over 4.5 million now...
Most signed UK online petition of all time I believe.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: slartibartfast on March 24, 2019, 04:16:04 PM
Anything which involves staying in any part of the EU isn't Brexit.

Of course it is, the Referendum was leave the EU. Norway isn’t in the EU, Switzerland isn’t in the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 24, 2019, 05:17:04 PM
Of course it is, the Referendum was leave the EU. Norway isn’t in the EU, Switzerland isn’t in the EU.

Farage was pushing a Norway-style deal... until he wasn't any more. Mind you, he was also in favour of a 2nd referendum... until he wasn't any longer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNCwcTu9U6U&t=12s


Other Brexiters-in-chief assured everyone that the UK would stay in the Single Market... until they changed their minds, yet again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZY
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 24, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
5.1 million signatures now.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 24, 2019, 07:34:40 PM
From the Times today

 “Some Brexiteers are starting to believe that the best hope of rescuing their project might be to cancel the current process (ie revoke Article 50), agree a way forward and then put that to voters in a second referendum”.

But wouldn’t that be undemocratic...?   *%6^
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on March 25, 2019, 12:13:26 PM
Over 4.5 million now...

5,451,469 signatures now ... and counting.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 26, 2019, 09:40:55 AM
The new potential PM?

Michael Gove (March 2016): "We know that the European Union depends more on us than we do on it.
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1110452473037275136

Erm...


Ah, his words of 'wisdom' continue:

Michael Gove (March 2016): "The day after [we vote Leave] nothing changes. Nothing damages Britain. In fact we're in a position to get a better deal than ever before."

May 2016 that "if we vote to Leave" we would "renegotiate the terms of our membership" so that "we no longer pay a fee to be a member".
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 26, 2019, 10:13:02 AM
Faisal Islam
‏Verified account @faisalislam

hasn’t been a single poll in almost a year now with Leave lead. 70 polls since GE17 show only two (+1) leads, 5 Ties, 63 Remain leads, recent avg plus 7/8 remain.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1110448683672354816

PS: FWIW, I happen to agree with MTI that polls can be skewed, but surely not all of them?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 26, 2019, 10:22:47 AM
From the Times today

 “Some Brexiteers are starting to believe that the best hope of rescuing their project might be to cancel the current process (ie revoke Article 50), agree a way forward and then put that to voters in a second referendum”.

But wouldn’t that be undemocratic...?   *%6^

If BoJ's Exodus analogy is anything to go by, I wonder how many of us will be around in 40 years' time once they've finally got out of the desert.

More seriously, IMO, the EU will want some kind of assurance that Art 50 won't be reinvoked every 6 months.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on March 26, 2019, 10:44:08 AM
Faisal Islam
‏Verified account @faisalislam

hasn’t been a single poll in almost a year now with Leave lead. 70 polls since GE17 show only two (+1) leads, 5 Ties, 63 Remain leads, recent avg plus 7/8 remain.

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1110448683672354816

PS: FWIW, I happen to agree with MTI that polls can be skewed, but surely not all of them?

Leave supporters don't need to vote in polls, the referendum result was to leave the EU.  Only remainers have an agenda and it is this which is reflected in many polls, many of which including the governments own petition site have been the target of internet bots.

It also appears that many remainers have changed their mind despite opinions to the contrary being promoted on News Channels like Sky News.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 26, 2019, 01:48:04 PM
Whatever MP's say, the electorate is not fooled imo. ;

Most voters believe Parliament is determined to block Brexit in defiance of the electorate’s will, a poll reveals. Some 55 per cent believe Parliament is determined to thwart Brexit, including almost two in five (38 per cent) Remain voters and 87 per cent of Leavers.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/25/voters-believe-parliament-trying-block-brexit-poll-reveals/


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 26, 2019, 02:06:47 PM
Leave supporters don't need to vote in polls, the referendum result was to leave the EU.  Only remainers have an agenda and it is this which is reflected in many polls, many of which including the governments own petition site have been the target of internet bots.

It also appears that many remainers have changed their mind despite opinions to the contrary being promoted on News Channels like Sky News.

Which news outlets do you prefer, John?

Kay Burely (also Sky) came out with a whanger of a "mistaken" piece of "information" the other day. On live TV.

(Before I forget, it was re having to join the Euro... )
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on March 26, 2019, 02:22:13 PM
Which news outlets do you prefer, John?

Kay Burely (also Sky) came out with a whanger of a "mistaken" piece of "information" the other day. On live TV.

(Before I forget, it was re having to join the Euro... )

I don't trust any of them anymore Carana, they all have their own political agendas.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 26, 2019, 04:38:10 PM
I don't trust any of them anymore Carana, they all have their own political agendas.

I tend to agree with you on that one, John.
A few don't seem to be (on both sides of the moderate spectrum), but then I guess that's my personal assessment.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 26, 2019, 04:49:35 PM
Leave supporters don't need to vote in polls, the referendum result was to leave the EU.  Only remainers have an agenda and it is this which is reflected in many polls, many of which including the governments own petition site have been the target of internet bots.

It also appears that many remainers have changed their mind despite opinions to the contrary being promoted on News Channels like Sky News.

Why not simply ask the people for confirmation?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 26, 2019, 06:06:49 PM
Leave supporters don't need to vote in polls, the referendum result was to leave the EU.  Only remainers have an agenda and it is this which is reflected in many polls, many of which including the governments own petition site have been the target of internet bots.

It also appears that many remainers have changed their mind despite opinions to the contrary being promoted on News Channels like Sky News.
Do you have a cite for that last statement?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 27, 2019, 07:28:32 AM
Parliament is split and cannot agree anything which renders the default position the only possible outcome. On 29 March the UK will be ejected from the EU regardless of all those Parliamentary tossers.
Well this isn’t going to happen.  It looks like the Tories have finally woken up to the fact that if they want their beloved Brexit it’s May’s deal or no Brexit.   
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on March 27, 2019, 02:29:13 PM
Why not simply ask the people for confirmation?

Just out of interest given recent events.
#Brexit   Leave or Remain in the EU?

https://twitter.com/Justice_forum/status/1110523034652368898?s=19
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2019, 04:23:24 PM
Parliament wanted control of the Brexit process. It has now handed complete control to the EU. As I understand it the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a new withdrawal agreement. What do these idiots (imo) think they can achieve now?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 06:30:03 PM
Parliament wanted control of the Brexit process. It has now handed complete control to the EU. As I understand it the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a new withdrawal agreement. What do these idiots (imo) think they can achieve now?
A no deal Brexit.  You should be pleased!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 29, 2019, 08:07:14 PM
A no deal Brexit.  You should be pleased!

I don't think I said that was what I wanted. My argument was for democracy to be respected. It seems others object to it being ignored too. London is full of them and they're getting angry. The politicians are still adamant that they're right and making ridiculous excuses for their behaviour.They should be made to join the police on the sreets to face the peope's anger imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 29, 2019, 08:33:47 PM
I don't think I said that was what I wanted. My argument was for democracy to be respected. It seems others object to it being ignored too. London is full of them and they're getting angry. The politicians are still adamant that they're right and making ridiculous excuses for their behaviour.They should be made to join the police on the sreets to face the peope's anger imo.
The angry crowd was a small fraction of the numbers seen in London last weekend, protesting against Brexit.  How should democracy be respected? Which version of Brexit respects democracy?  Not May’s deal according to hardline Brexiteers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 07:20:58 AM
May’s going to give it another go in Parliament, fourth time lucky I guess...  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 08:55:54 AM
The angry crowd was a small fraction of the numbers seen in London last weekend, protesting against Brexit.  How should democracy be respected? Which version of Brexit respects democracy?  Not May’s deal according to hardline Brexiteers.

Your understanding of democracy seems to be similar to the politician's. It's OK only if you like the result.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: [...] on March 30, 2019, 09:32:56 AM
Brexit: Vote Leave drops appeal against referendum spending fine
29 March 2019

Quote
Vote Leave has dropped its appeal against a £61,000 fine for breaking electoral law over spending limits, the Electoral Commission has said.

The official pro-Brexit campaign for the UK's EU referendum was fined in July for exceeding its £7m spending limit for the vote.

The campaign said at the time the watchdog's findings were "wholly inaccurate" and politically motivated.

It said in a statement it had run out of money to pursue the appeal.

The announcement came as MPs rejected Prime Minister Theresa May's withdrawal agreement on the day the UK had been due to leave the EU.

Vote Leave's Cummings urges new party
Vote Leave fined over 194,154 spam texts
Vote Leave campaign broke electoral law
The Vote Leave campaign, fronted by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, was found by the Electoral Commission to have funnelled £675,315 through pro-Brexit youth group BeLeave, days before the referendum in 2016, which helped ensure it did not breach its £7m spending limit.

The founder of BeLeave, Darren Grimes, was fined £20,000 and referred to the police, along with Vote Leave official David Halsall.

'Serious offences'
Vote Leave bosses say they were given the go-ahead to give the money to BeLeave and they had acted within the rules.

But the Commission found there was "significant evidence of joint working" between Mr Grimes and Vote Leave and that Vote Leave should have declared the spending as its own.

An Electoral Commission spokesman said: "Vote Leave has today withdrawn its appeal and related proceedings against the Electoral Commission's finding of multiple offences under electoral law, committed during the 2016 EU referendum campaign.

"Vote Leave was the designated lead campaigner for the leave outcome at the referendum.

"We found that it broke the electoral rules set out by Parliament to ensure fairness, confidence and legitimacy at an electoral event. Serious offences such as these undermine public confidence in our system and it is vital, therefore, that they are properly investigated and sanctioned.

"We have been advised that Vote Leave has paid its £61,000 fine and look forward to receiving the sum in full."

Vote Leave has been contacted for a response.

In a statement released to the Daily Mirror, the campaign said: "For almost three years, Vote Leave has successfully fought back against numerous allegations and conspiracy theories, spending almost £1m in the process.

"Since July 2018, we have been preparing our appeal against the Electoral Commission's unwarranted and unsubstantiated finding and fines.

"Sadly, we now find ourselves in a position that we do not have the financial resources to carry forward this Appeal, even though we are confident that we would have prevailed on the facts in Court.

"We have therefore regretfully decided to discontinue our appeal."


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47755611




https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history_en
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 11:10:54 AM
Brexit: Vote Leave drops appeal against referendum spending fine
29 March 2019

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47755611

So if the campaign was illegal, as in electrol law, what does it say for the idea of leaving the EU, does it and could it reverse the vote?

Was parliament waiting on this outcome?


Has this whole episode been a game of smoke and mirrors, to confuse the electorate and cause division?

It was ridiculous going into the idea of a referendum without an answer to the possible outcome of leave,... Who puts forward a proposal without a plan of action to back up said proposal?

The commons are in chaos, the public bemused , the carrot was dangled only for people to realise it was a parsnip instead.

The manipulation of the situation is astounding to watch, with no-one having a clear idea as to what to do next, or rather keeping their cards close to their chests..

The idea of a referendum about leaving the EU, has satisfied those who for decades wanted such a referendum, but I feel in reality it was never going to happen.... They offered up the referendum and now there are many ways to scupper it... whilst they waste billions of pounds in doing so....


Which ever side people fall on, it is sad that we are where we are today, and simple basic issues that our government have ignored has caused anger in the country.... Homelessness and poverty being a major contributor to peoples feelings... 

Looking at a brief history of the EU, we have this period of time...

And it's almost laughable if it was so serious... poverty and people starving in our nation is a frightening reality... food banks, for families and people needing shelter and a roof on their heads, has been ignored by our government, Universal Credit a cruel punishment for poverty and disability in this country....

The EU needs to take note of what our government has done to it's people and how it has cut and cut services over ever aspect of a society , but, nothing happens in that aspect... And there needs to be change...  Whether we are in the EU or we leave

I do not know the answer, like with everything else, I'm exasperated at the idea of the referendum being started in the first place, without the support of an entire political party, who would have and should have taken control of parliament of the day.... Having the majority in parliament and being able to deliver on what the referendum outcome was... that being leave as we would have continued in the same vein if remain had won the referendum.

But we get cross party campaigners trying to deliver a campaign on an important issue of the day, when they have no leverage in which to deliver said outcome...  It was always going to fail...

Manipulating people is the way of politics, and nothing gets done, those who 'have' get more, and those who 'don't' get less..





https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history_en

I agree with most of what you say. I think the difference here is that the attempts to manipulate have been so blatant.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: [...] on March 30, 2019, 11:30:23 AM
I agree with most of what you say. I think the difference here is that the attempts to manipulate have been so blatant.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: [...] on March 30, 2019, 12:07:23 PM
..................
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 30, 2019, 12:17:19 PM
Brexit: Vote Leave drops appeal against referendum spending fine
29 March 2019

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47755611

So if the campaign was illegal, as in electrol law, what does it say for the idea of leaving the EU, does it and could it reverse the vote?

Was parliament waiting on this outcome?


Has this whole episode been a game of smoke and mirrors, to confuse the electorate and cause division?

It was ridiculous going into the idea of a referendum without an answer to the possible outcome of leave,... Who puts forward a proposal without a plan of action to back up said proposal?

The commons are in chaos, the public bemused , the carrot was dangled only for people to realise it was a parsnip instead.

The manipulation of the situation is astounding to watch, with no-one having a clear idea as to what to do next, or rather keeping their cards close to their chests..

The idea of a referendum about leaving the EU, has satisfied those who for decades wanted such a referendum, but I feel in reality it was never going to happen.... They offered up the referendum and now there are many ways to scupper it... whilst they waste billions of pounds in doing so....


Which ever side people fall on, it is sad that we are where we are today, and simple basic issues that our government have ignored has caused anger in the country.... Homelessness and poverty being a major contributor to peoples feelings... 

Looking at a brief history of the EU, we have this period of time...

And it's almost laughable if it was so serious... poverty and people starving in our nation is a frightening reality... food banks, for families and people needing shelter and a roof on their heads, has been ignored by our government, Universal Credit a cruel punishment for poverty and disability in this country....

The EU needs to take note of what our government has done to it's people and how it has cut and cut services over ever aspect of a society , but, nothing happens in that aspect... And there needs to be change...  Whether we are in the EU or we leave

I do not know the answer, like with everything else, I'm exasperated at the idea of the referendum being started in the first place, without the support of an entire political party, who would have and should have taken control of parliament of the day.... Having the majority in parliament and being able to deliver on what the referendum outcome was... that being leave as we would have continued in the same vein if remain had won the referendum.

But we get cross party campaigners trying to deliver a campaign on an important issue of the day, when they have no leverage in which to deliver said outcome...  It was always going to fail...

Manipulating people is the way of politics, and nothing gets done, those who 'have' get more, and those who 'don't' get less..

Edit.... The indicative vote which is to be held on April Fool's day, only makes me question, is it Parliament having the last laugh, as they once more take the pee out of the voting public... As we become the Guinea Pig for any other nation contemplating leaving the EU...  A process thrown into chaos watched by the world and seen to be an impossible task to achieve..

Will it dissuade, other countries from trying to do the same thing??



https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/history_en

 8@??)(

What an excellent post.

I question this part "So if the campaign was illegal, as in electrol law, what does it say for the idea of leaving the EU, does it and could it reverse the vote?"

There is no evidence it was illegal,just allegations. and the leave campaign have said they gave up the fight due to rising costs to defend themselves.

Many people have to walk away  from various allegations due to costs to defend themselves.


On other forums where name calling  and nasty snipes are not allowed, just serious debate with a little light hearter banter it is very easy to see the bview of both sides.

There are issues with this whole episode in our nations history.

It was the the Labour Government- Bliar and Campbell who against the will of 3 million marchers, and professional expert advice on the ground who took it upon themselves to slaughter innocent men women and children! in the name of an "war being declared on us by Saddam Hussien.Turns out no war- just milions of people dead, homeless coutryless. Thank you Tone- well done that one. So Teflon tony has a history of not listening to the will of the people- these slime bags think they rule us and lets face it THEY REALLY DO!

Having an open door policy to help the poor and unfortunate became an opportunity for revenge and mass frauds, who crawled in with these poor unfortunates. Using all means, hardened criminals doing unspeakable things to get power and status in the UK. Many in their own country wanted for crimes against humanity. but hey they got large villas in London near the rich set. car and phones were in abundance to help these 'poor' refugees. We woke up to these con men /women too late.  We do not have the infrastructure to accommodate peoles from around the world in such quantities.  Those who complained were called names (The usual way to deflect responsibility or face the argument. rascist, islamophobes,etc)- untill London was bombed by fanatics an'terror' schools were opening up in the name of 'freedom' and cultural recognition. oh yeah!

It was in the face of all this that the indigenous population becan a whispering disgruntlement, which was on the quiet in fear of being jailed for saying something... So what happened  they found a voice in the name of the bloody Nazi party! BNP.

Politicians wer in a flux began the usual name calling to 'scare them off' untill they realised that this was deeper and wider that they first thought.

That is when I became interested in Brexit- I saw the reasons not being addressed and got scared of having the BNP ruling over us. Which will happen if things do not get sorted.

Three things which people wer ecomplaining about
 NHS  refugees regardless if they were or were not were put ahaead of indigenous population
         GP Surgeries were over subscribed- but this made the GPs richer as they get paid per name on register

Housing- a huge issue especially in London.  Housing benefit in the region of 2000 thousand  pounds per month was being paid to  'land lord' for 'nice' houses for the 'refugees' -when this was highlighted it stopped.
Schools- many different languages and culteral observance has caused huge problems in many areas. small community school who had less than 250 pupils had 600 crammed into them leaving locals to find alternative school outside their catchment area.

These are very genuine concerns which should have been addressed.  but all they did was name call. shut up and put up was the answer.

Just as an aside Phoney Toney had his children  claim joint citzen ship as Irish... erm well just in case his war escalated and ther was a call up...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211450/The-young-OBlairs--Former-Prime-Ministers-children-Irish-passports-thanks-grandmother.html


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 30, 2019, 12:23:27 PM
The referendum was a once in a lifetime opportunity for the UK to make a choice... The presentation of this opportunity was set out to be divisive... There had been for decades many left wing supporters of leaving the EU and having a referendum on the subject...

There argument was never based on boarder controls or race, but the "Leave Campaign", highjacked the reasonable question people may have had about where the EU was heading and what they could do in the future..

Jermey Corbin always wanting to leave the EU (as far as I remember), for political reasons he supports remain.... 

A cross party campaign that appealed to many right wing extremists, which in turn scared away anyone whom might have always looked for a referendum on many different issues... Those whom had all there adult lives waited for this referendum, where put in a position of being seen as racist by voting to leave..  When in reality, it had more to do with other concerns that the EU posed.

Yesterday outside Westminster was shocking.. Tommy Robinson taking centre stage, UKIP flags everywhere, The orange men apparently also taking to the streets, all to show the world, that only racists and intolerant people voted leave..

The media again could do more... So could the houses of parliament... But whilst the nation argues with itself, anyone who may have wanted to leave,, then distances themselves for fear of being portrayed in an unfavourable light, and are just seen as bigoted idiots who haven't a clue about anything...

So the manipulation continues, and we are left with a nation who doesn't know if it's on it's arse or it's elbow..

Indeed!  we are all rascist.. phew!  Aother great post. thank you.

I do agree many poeple not want to stand beside known rascist and trouble makers who are on both sides ofcourse. The BBC are loving it. just like they loved filming the live slaughter of innocents in Iraq  it was shock and awe and wonderful and isn't it great what we can do to others with our not so smart bombs? Just like they filmed Dr Kelly...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: [...] on March 30, 2019, 12:53:53 PM
The Complex nature of what leaving the EU meant, should have been explained before a referendum was put forward..

I hate politics, I wish i knew and understood more....  I am wading through deep water aghast at what I see...  I just want the bus to stop so I can get off..!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: [...] on March 30, 2019, 01:27:28 PM
Indeed!  we are all rascist.. phew!  Aother great post. thank you.


(Speak for yourself)

Is that the point of this site.... Is that what I have missed....  Now I understand why certain attitudes on certain topics remain.... 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: slartibartfast on March 30, 2019, 05:48:45 PM
8@??)(

What an excellent post.

I question this part "So if the campaign was illegal, as in electrol law, what does it say for the idea of leaving the EU, does it and could it reverse the vote?"

There is no evidence it was illegal,just allegations. and the leave campaign have said they gave up the fight due to rising costs to defend themselves.

Many people have to walk away  from various allegations due to costs to defend themselves.


On other forums where name calling  and nasty snipes are not allowed, just serious debate with a little light hearter banter it is very easy to see the bview of both sides.

There are issues with this whole episode in our nations history.

It was the the Labour Government- Bliar and Campbell who against the will of 3 million marchers, and professional expert advice on the ground who took it upon themselves to slaughter innocent men women and children! in the name of an "war being declared on us by Saddam Hussien.Turns out no war- just milions of people dead, homeless coutryless. Thank you Tone- well done that one. So Teflon tony has a history of not listening to the will of the people- these slime bags think they rule us and lets face it THEY REALLY DO!

Having an open door policy to help the poor and unfortunate became an opportunity for revenge and mass frauds, who crawled in with these poor unfortunates. Using all means, hardened criminals doing unspeakable things to get power and status in the UK. Many in their own country wanted for crimes against humanity. but hey they got large villas in London near the rich set. car and phones were in abundance to help these 'poor' refugees. We woke up to these con men /women too late.  We do not have the infrastructure to accommodate peoles from around the world in such quantities.  Those who complained were called names (The usual way to deflect responsibility or face the argument. rascist, islamophobes,etc)- untill London was bombed by fanatics an'terror' schools were opening up in the name of 'freedom' and cultural recognition. oh yeah!

It was in the face of all this that the indigenous population becan a whispering disgruntlement, which was on the quiet in fear of being jailed for saying something... So what happened  they found a voice in the name of the bloody Nazi party! BNP.

Politicians wer in a flux began the usual name calling to 'scare them off' untill they realised that this was deeper and wider that they first thought.

That is when I became interested in Brexit- I saw the reasons not being addressed and got scared of having the BNP ruling over us. Which will happen if things do not get sorted.

Three things which people wer ecomplaining about
 NHS  refugees regardless if they were or were not were put ahaead of indigenous population
         GP Surgeries were over subscribed- but this made the GPs richer as they get paid per name on register

Housing- a huge issue especially in London.  Housing benefit in the region of 2000 thousand  pounds per month was being paid to  'land lord' for 'nice' houses for the 'refugees' -when this was highlighted it stopped.
Schools- many different languages and culteral observance has caused huge problems in many areas. small community school who had less than 250 pupils had 600 crammed into them leaving locals to find alternative school outside their catchment area.

These are very genuine concerns which should have been addressed.  but all they did was name call. shut up and put up was the answer.

Just as an aside Phoney Toney had his children  claim joint citzen ship as Irish... erm well just in case his war escalated and ther was a call up...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1211450/The-young-OBlairs--Former-Prime-Ministers-children-Irish-passports-thanks-grandmother.html

Leave has been found guilty and fined, further investigations are ongoing. There was evidence which is why they were fined.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 06:05:14 PM
Your understanding of democracy seems to be similar to the politician's. It's OK only if you like the result.
Which part of my post led you to that (flawed) understanding of my position?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 06:32:47 PM

I am so very glad that I live in France and don't have to care.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 30, 2019, 10:29:57 PM
I am so very glad that I live in France and don't have to care.

I live in England and I don't care either. I'm fascinated by what politicians think they can get away with but that's about it. Dominic Grieve's constituency party objected to him ignoring democracy. Will he be a one-off or the first of many?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on March 30, 2019, 10:41:50 PM
I live in England and I don't care either. I'm fascinated by what politicians think they can get away with but that's about it. Dominic Grieve's constituency party objected to him ignoring democracy. Will he be a one-off or the first of many?

I hope he is the first of many.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 30, 2019, 11:23:34 PM
(Speak for yourself)

Is that the point of this site.... Is that what I have missed....  Now I understand why certain attitudes on certain topics remain....


That was tounge in cheek-  as soon as you disagree with someone who knows all the answers all the time you are labelled a rascist.  Someone would have to point out my exact crime of being a rascist I have no isms and fear no one. I love no country and bow to no queens, presidents,,popes, kings or anyone else.

 I would not die or fight for this country. No  isms because I don't care enough about looks or religions to hate anyone.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 30, 2019, 11:23:48 PM
I live in England and I don't care either. I'm fascinated by what politicians think they can get away with but that's about it. Dominic Grieve's constituency party objected to him ignoring democracy. Will he be a one-off or the first of many?
Why don’t you care?  Why did you not vote?  You don’t seem to have any concern about the future of this country which I find strangely at odds with your fierce support of The Will Of The People.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on March 30, 2019, 11:32:25 PM
Leave has been found guilty and fined, further investigations are ongoing. There was evidence which is why they were fined.

Yes indeed Slarti, however, there is no evidence that in spending more money that was legally allowed, made any difference to the vote. That was the point as far as I am concerned.   Big buck speakers including Tony Bliar were gadding about shouting at corners.

Is there an argument to be had for staying or leaving if so i havn't heard a decent one yet.

What started of a common market best friends and all that became an huge uncontrollable beast with an unelected president!! WTF... not what people signed up for..

Ane anyway  we won't be allowed to leave.. The Irish tried to vote down an EU directive and twice were overruled!!

So it really is a case of 'you can check out any time -but you can never leave'... hotel california song
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2019, 10:32:01 AM
Why don’t you care?  Why did you not vote?  You don’t seem to have any concern about the future of this country which I find strangely at odds with your fierce support of The Will Of The People.

This country will continue to exist whether it's part of the EU or not. I love the UK and have spent a lot of time exploring and enjoying it. I lost interest in politics long ago when I realised that a Parliamentary Democracy isn't really very democratic at all.

Then the referendum occured and it was more democratic than our elections. I found the faces of the commentators and politicians hilarious when they realised it had produced the 'wrong' result. As time went by I realised that our politicians were so determined to find a way to avoid implementing that result that they were prepared to abandon honesty, integrity and democracy to achieve their goal.

Why should I care if those elected to run the country are quite prepared to damage it by their behaviour? They have made the UK a laughing stock around the world, exasperated business owners who just want a decision, angered voters on both sides and are slowly driving the EU to despair.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 31, 2019, 12:24:40 PM
This country will continue to exist whether it's part of the EU or not. I love the UK and have spent a lot of time exploring and enjoying it. I lost interest in politics long ago when I realised that a Parliamentary Democracy isn't really very democratic at all.

Then the referendum occured and it was more democratic than our elections. I found the faces of the commentators and politicians hilarious when they realised it had produced the 'wrong' result. As time went by I realised that our politicians were so determined to find a way to avoid implementing that result that they were prepared to abandon honesty, integrity and democracy to achieve their goal.

Why should I care if those elected to run the country are quite prepared to damage it by their behaviour? They have made the UK a laughing stock around the world, exasperated business owners who just want a decision, angered voters on both sides and are slowly driving the EU to despair.
Because if you love this country as you claim you do then you should care about its future.  If you care about your children and grandchildren you should care about the sort of country they will be living in when you’re gone.  IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2019, 03:54:53 PM
Because if you love this country as you claim you do then you should care about its future.  If you care about your children and grandchildren you should care about the sort of country they will be living in when you’re gone.  IMO.

it doesn't matter whether I care or not I have no chance whatsoever of changing anything in my opinion. My approach to my descendants has always been to make them strong enough to survive whatever life throws at them. I've taught them to value people, not possessions and to be content with their lives and enoy them. . 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 31, 2019, 04:41:27 PM
it doesn't matter whether I care or not I have no chance whatsoever of changing anything in my opinion. My approach to my descendants has always been to make them strong enough to survive whatever life throws at them. I've taught them to value people, not possessions and to be content with their lives and enoy them. .
Hard to enjoy life so juch if you are without a job and struggling to make ends meet, unless you’re suggesting that the poor and unemployed should all just buck up and be content to simply be surviving.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on March 31, 2019, 05:13:08 PM
Hard to enjoy life so juch if you are without a job and struggling to make ends meet, unless you’re suggesting that the poor and unemployed should all just buck up and be content to simply be surviving.

I'm still hearing that people survived the war (with rations) and that, therefore, "Brits" will "survive" Brexit. 

A difference is that Brexit isn't a response to a war, in the traditional sense, to avoid an invasion from a foreign power.

On the other hand, if any foreign power has given a helping hand to this chaos, why send missiles when social  media can do the job?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2019, 08:26:25 PM
Hard to enjoy life so juch if you are without a job and struggling to make ends meet, unless you’re suggesting that the poor and unemployed should all just buck up and be content to simply be surviving.

It would depend on what you need in order to enjoy life. One of our favourite activities when our children were young was 'going for a walk'. All we needed was a pair of shoes each and each other. Our children learned about plants and animals and to have fun with us, the dog and each other.  We made memories that we still sometimes talk about today and my youngest is 50 years old.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 31, 2019, 08:32:03 PM
It would depend on what you need in order to enjoy life. One of our favourite activities when our children were young was 'going for a walk'. All we needed was a pair of shoes each and each other. Our children learned about plants and animals and to have fun with us, the dog and each other.  We made memories that we still sometimes talk about today and my youngest is 50 years old.
That’s all very lovely but it does seem rather to reinforce my suspicion that you think that poor people should be satisfied with their lot and seek contentment in their poverty and disadvantage.  I’m sure this would be a view that Jacob Rees Mogg and other rich Tory toffs would thoroughly endorse too.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2019, 09:52:06 PM
That’s all very lovely but it does seem rather to reinforce my suspicion that you think that poor people should be satisfied with their lot and seek contentment in their poverty and disadvantage.  I’m sure this would be a view that Jacob Rees Mogg and other rich Tory toffs would thoroughly endorse too.  @)(++(*

What do you suggest poor disadvantaged people should do?  Sit in a darkened room and cry each day? Being in the EU didn't stop their numbers growing, did it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 31, 2019, 10:13:02 PM
What do you suggest poor disadvantaged people should do?  Sit in a darkened room and cry each day? Being in the EU didn't stop their numbers growing, did it?
Please don’t be silly.  I am referring to your apparent complacency about the disadvantaged and how exiting the EU may affect them negatively , and your apaprent belief that all you need is “a pair of shoes and each other” for a happy life, about your apparent disregard for the importance to a country of a healthy, prosperous economy, something which you almost seem to find distasteful.   No doubt you will be positively rejoicing when Jeremy turns the UK into Europe’s version of Venezuela that makes us all much poorer.  Never mind, as long as we have a pair of shoes and each other to go one nice long walks with what more could we possibly need or want.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2019, 10:52:49 PM
Please don’t be silly.  I am referring to your apparent complacency about the disadvantaged and how exiting the EU may affect them negatively , and your apaprent belief that all you need is “a pair of shoes and each other” for a happy life, about your apparent disregard for the importance to a country of a healthy, prosperous economy, something which you almost seem to find distasteful.   No doubt you will be positively rejoicing when Jeremy turns the UK into Europe’s version of Venezuela that makes us all much poorer.  Never mind, as long as we have a pair of shoes and each other to go one nice long walks with what more could we possibly need or want.

Me silly? Has being in the EU given the UK a healthy prosperous economy? Why, then, has the gap between rich and poor grown and the number of those in poverty steadily risen?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on March 31, 2019, 11:07:38 PM
Me silly? Has being in the EU given the UK a healthy prosperous economy? Why, then, has the gap between rich and poor grown and the number of those in poverty steadily risen?
I believe the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world and that London is the centre of global finance so certainly I believe we have had a healthy and prosperous economy more info here https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit , it’s certainly untrue that poverty has steadily risen since joining the Eu, quite the reverse in facthttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdom  but you are entirely deflecting from my point which was more about your complete lack of concern for the future of this country and your chikdren and grandchildren.  . 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on March 31, 2019, 11:39:29 PM
I believe the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world and that London is the centre of global finance so certainly I believe we have had a healthy and prosperous economy more info here https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit , it’s certainly untrue that poverty has steadily risen since joining the Eu, quite the reverse in facthttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdom  but you are entirely deflecting from my point which was more about your complete lack of concern for the future of this country and your chikdren and grandchildren.  .

Your belief that a prosperous country means prosperous citizens is simplistic and naive imo. As is your belief that prosperity equals happiness.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 01, 2019, 07:15:36 AM
Your belief that a prosperous country means prosperous citizens is simplistic and naive imo. As is your belief that prosperity equals happiness.
You believe that I believe that and so it is you being simplistic and, well, quite insulting really.  Point to where I have made either claim or apologise for misrepresenting my views.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 01, 2019, 07:33:27 AM
That said,  5 of the top ten happiest countries in the world are in the EU.  Compare the list of the poorest countries in the world

https://www.focus-economics.com/blog/the-poorest-countries-in-the-world

with their rankings in the happiness rankings

https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/non-economic-data/happiest-countries

And draw your own conclusions.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 07:45:31 AM
You believe that I believe that and so it is you being simplistic and, well, quite insulting really.  Point to where I have made either claim or apologise for misrepresenting my views.

You said I should care about the kind of country my descendants will be living in. What difference will it make if I do care?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 01, 2019, 08:05:52 AM
You said I should care about the kind of country my descendants will be living in. What difference will it make if I do care?
For a start it might motivate you to actually getting out and voting next time.  I thought a vote to leave was all about caring for the future of this country, but you seem to think that’s pointless.  You appear quite nihilistic in my view, except you seem to care passionately about democracy - why bother?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 08:17:53 AM
For a start it might motivate you to actually getting out and voting next time.  I thought a vote to leave was all about caring for the future of this country, but you seem to think that’s pointless.  You appear quite nihilistic in my view, except you seem to care passionately about democracy - why bother?

What was the point in 17.4 million people who cared voting for this country to leave the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 01, 2019, 08:26:44 AM
What was the point in 17.4 million people who cared voting for this country to leave the EU?
What’s the point of drawing your next breath?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 08:58:58 AM
What’s the point of drawing your next breath?

What a silly comment imo. Why not try to answer the question? Too difficult?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 09:06:49 AM
That said,  5 of the top ten happiest countries in the world are in the EU.  Compare the list of the poorest countries in the world

https://www.focus-economics.com/blog/the-poorest-countries-in-the-world

with their rankings in the happiness rankings

https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/non-economic-data/happiest-countries

And draw your own conclusions.

Happiness isn't dependant on EU membership or economic prosperity.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 01, 2019, 09:26:20 AM
What a silly comment imo. Why not try to answer the question? Too difficult?
Perhaps you’d care to read back and see how many of my questions you’ve answered properly.   None I think, I guess they were too difficult.  One of your replies was along the line of what should the poor do, lock themselves in a dark cupboard and cry which I thought was particularly silly.  I thought my question to you was rather good as you seem to think everything is ultimately pointless.  To answer your not very difficult question the people voted in the referendum to make their feelings known and the country will never be the same again as a result .  As far as any of us knows we may be fulfilling “the will of the people “ a week Friday.  Rejoice!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 01, 2019, 09:28:54 AM
Happiness isn't dependant on EU membership or economic prosperity.
Who said it was?  However if you have a job and a family to support and the factory you work in closes down is that going to make no difference to your happiness and the wellbeing of your family?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 10:28:25 AM
Perhaps you’d care to read back and see how many of my questions you’ve answered properly.   None I think, I guess they were too difficult.  One of your replies was along the line of what should the poor do, lock themselves in a dark cupboard and cry which I thought was particularly silly.  I thought my question to you was rather good as you seem to think everything is ultimately pointless.  To answer your not very difficult question the people voted in the referendum to make their feelings known and the country will never be the same again as a result .  As far as any of us knows we may be fulfilling “the will of the people “ a week Friday.  Rejoice!

I see no reason to rejoice if the will of the people is only delivered in spite of our politician's efforts rather than because of them. Most of them have thrown their efforts into preventing the result of the referendum from being implemented.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 11:20:42 AM
Who said it was?  However if you have a job and a family to support and the factory you work in closes down is that going to make no difference to your happiness and the wellbeing of your family?

You seemed to be suggesting a connection, otherwise why post what you posted

Caring and voting doesn't stop businesses from closing. Having a job doesn't guarantee happiness and wellbeing, especially if the worker deslikes the job. It can cause misery and resentment in the whole family.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 01, 2019, 06:14:15 PM
You seemed to be suggesting a connection, otherwise why post what you posted

Caring and voting doesn't stop businesses from closing. Having a job doesn't guarantee happiness and wellbeing, especially if the worker deslikes the job. It can cause misery and resentment in the whole family.
IMO you are being deliberately obtuse.  If you want to believe that mass unemployment, a recession and rampant inflation has no effect on the well being of the nation that’s your problem.  Just think of all those happy people in places like Venezuela and Zimbabwe, so fortunate to be living in poverty and deprivation. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 08:26:14 PM
IMO you are being deliberately obtuse.  If you want to believe that mass unemployment, a recession and rampant inflation has no effect on the well being of the nation that’s your problem.  Just think of all those happy people in places like Venezuela and Zimbabwe, so fortunate to be living in poverty and deprivation.

Are you saying that if I don't care and vote the UK will suffer mass unemployment, a recession and rampant inflation?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 01, 2019, 08:45:45 PM
Are you saying that if I don't care and vote the UK will suffer mass unemployment, a recession and rampant inflation?
Another ridiculous riposte IMO.  I didn’t say anything remotely like that so would you kindly stop making these sorts of posts, they do you no credit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 01, 2019, 10:23:57 PM
Another ridiculous riposte IMO.  I didn’t say anything remotely like that so would you kindly stop making these sorts of posts, they do you no credit.

I only wish I knew what the heck your point is. You have failed completely, imo, to explain why I should care or vote.

I see the MP's still can't say what they want. Isn't it time they accepted that it's not about what they want?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on April 01, 2019, 10:25:58 PM
I only wish I knew what the heck your point is. You have failed completely, imo, to explain why I should care or vote.

I see the MP's still can't say what they want. Isn't it time they accepted that it's not about what they want?

You are wrong again.. MPs know exactly what they want... But they all want something  different
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 01, 2019, 10:41:31 PM
I only wish I knew what the heck your point is. You have failed completely, imo, to explain why I should care or vote.

I see the MP's still can't say what they want. Isn't it time they accepted that it's not about what they want?
You shouldn’t care about the country your descendants will be living in and you shouldn’t vote as your vote is completely worthless, you should consider only yourself and what suits you best.  MPs should ignore their own concerns about the future of the country and should do what the people to tell them to do even if it’s a really disastrous thing to do, in their opinion.

Is that the correct answer?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on April 01, 2019, 10:51:53 PM
You shouldn’t care about the country your descendants will be living in and you shouldn’t vote as your vote is completely worthless, you should consider only yourself and what suits you best.  MPs should ignore their own concerns about the future of the country and should do what the people to tell them to do even if it’s a really disastrous thing to do, in their opinion.

Is that the correct answer?

It's all scaremongering just like when the UK got smart and refused to join the Euro.  All the so-called experts were wrong then and they are wrong now. The world is lining up to do free trade deals with the UK so the future is bright. The sooner we get out the better. April 12th is looking good for a no deal exit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 01, 2019, 11:03:37 PM
It's all scaremongering just like when the UK got smart and refused to join the Euro.  All the so-called experts were wrong then and they are wrong now. The world is lining up to do free trade deals with the UK so the future is bright. The sooner we get out the better. April 12th is looking good for a no deal exit.
I really don’t think that’s going to happen, but in a sick kind of a way I hope it does.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 02, 2019, 08:48:39 AM
You are wrong again.. MPs know exactly what they want... But they all want something  different

A lot of them want to revoke Article 50 but were too cowardly to vote for it last night.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 02, 2019, 09:24:12 AM
You shouldn’t care about the country your descendants will be living in and you shouldn’t vote as your vote is completely worthless, you should consider only yourself and what suits you best.  MPs should ignore their own concerns about the future of the country and should do what the people to tell them to do even if it’s a really disastrous thing to do, in their opinion.

Is that the correct answer?

I said it's immaterial whether I care or not as I can't affect the future of the UK. I didn't vote in the referendum because I had no clear preference.

I care about people and this government has attacked the poorest and most disadvantaged from day one. The money they have saved is peanuts but the misery they have caused is huge. Some EU laws have helped people; minimum wages and holidays, for example.

On the other hand the EU's ambitions for ever closer integration make me uncomfortable.

I don't know if the UK will gain or lose if it leaves the EU and neither do MP's. I don't think they have the right to cause such mayhem and I think (and hope) many of them will lose their seats as a result.

 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 02, 2019, 05:52:48 PM
I said it's immaterial whether I care or not as I can't affect the future of the UK. I didn't vote in the referendum because I had no clear preference.

I care about people and this government has attacked the poorest and most disadvantaged from day one. The money they have saved is peanuts but the misery they have caused is huge. Some EU laws have helped people; minimum wages and holidays, for example.

On the other hand the EU's ambitions for ever closer integration make me uncomfortable.

I don't know if the UK will gain or lose if it leaves the EU and neither do MP's. I don't think they have the right to cause such mayhem and I think (and hope) many of them will lose their seats as a result.
Given that exiting from the EU without a deal takes us into unknown territory (by your own admission) which at the very least will almost certainly be dispruptive and at worst may seriously damage the interests of the UK, and its people as well as the Union itself, is it really a sensible and responsible thing for MPs to take us “over the edge” without a deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 02, 2019, 06:09:03 PM
Put it this way, if Brexit happens even with a deal and the economy and wellbeing of the country goes on a downward spiral over the next 10 years whose fault will that be?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 07:25:28 AM
Another great article from Danny F in today’s Times:

How the EU can ensure Brexit never happens
Daniel FinkelsteinApril 2 2019, 5:00pm,
Smart negotiation strategy suggests Brussels should say ‘take your time’ to Britain to get the result it’s always wanted


A famous, if apocryphal, story is told of the French statesman Georges Clemenceau negotiating to buy a statuette in a bazaar. The shopkeeper offered it for “only” 75 rupees, while the Frenchman counteroffered with 45 rupees. After that, no matter the haggling, he refused to move. And there they were. Stuck.

Eventually the shopkeeper threw up his hands and said: “You are impossible! I’d rather give it to you.” Clemenceau smiled, pocketed the statuette and said: “Done.” And then he added: “You are very kind, and such a kindness could only come from a friend. Allow me to offer you a gift in return. Will you accept 45 rupees for use in charitable works?”

The shopkeeper accepted the money and they parted on good terms.

The European Union is close to a diplomatic and political triumph. Against all the odds it may be able to conclude its negotiation with the United Kingdom achieving everything it could possibly have wanted. All it needs to do now is show the wit, cunning and courage of Clemenceau in the bazaar.

Here is what I think it should do on April 10. Not what it necessarily will do — that changes every hour as Michel Barnier says one thing and Emmanuel Macron says something else — but what it should do. And what it should do is basically nothing. It should tell Britain that it can stay while it wants to. There will be no deadlines, no conditions, no meetings, no more negotiation. Britain should be told to go away and come back when it is ready.

This may strike the EU as counterintuitive. So I should emphasise that I am not proposing this in Britain’s interest, although I think it is. I am proposing this in the EU’s interest. I think it’s the right thing for it to do if it wants to secure a triumph.

In his book Getting Past No, William Ury, one of the founders of the Harvard Program on Negotiation, has this to say: “Breakthrough negotiation is the art of letting the other person have your way.” And the starting point is identifying both your own interests and your Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement, or Batna. In other words, the arrangement you have to fall back on if you can’t reach a deal. To give an example of a Batna, you are in a much stronger position when negotiating your salary if you have another job offer you can accept if your employer won’t give you a pay rise.

It’s always been in the EU’s interests that Britain should remain a member but that Brussels should not have to abandon its basic principles and in particular its four freedoms: the movement of labour, capital, goods and services. Since at the outset of negotiations this seemed unlikely, the EU has been seeking the best deal short of that. And it’s been helped by the fact that it has a fairly strong Batna and that Britain has a weak one. If the EU can’t get a deal, it can live with the alternative. If Britain can’t, the alternative of living with no deal looks pretty dreadful.

However, it is easy in negotiations to overestimate your Batna. The hard Brexiteers have made this mistake, leading them to wildly overplay a pretty weak hand. Brussels must not make the same mistake. Its Batna is stronger than Britain’s but there are many negotiated deals that would be far better for it than its fallback position.

So it’s still in Brussels’ interests to hang on and get a deal. A deal that would once have seemed highly unlikely but which the grisly errors of the inept hard Brexiteers have made possible. In short, the EU can reasonably aim to keep Britain as a full member.

There is one big thing in the way of securing a good deal. It seems odd to say this when Britain’s behaviour has been so wayward. But the biggest obstacle to Brussels getting what it wants is the EU itself. One of the main obstacles in the way of a successful negotiation is frustration. Who wouldn’t be frustrated negotiating with us? It’s completely understandable.

And totally counterproductive. The overwhelming temptation when dealing with difficult people is to give up and walk out. And that is why Ury advises that “the first step is to control your own behaviour. Instead of reacting, you need to regain your mental balance and stay focused on achieving what you want. The first challenge is don’t react.” This is known as “going to the balcony”, a place from which you can calmly see the problem.

Frustration would dictate telling Britain that if it can’t meet the Brexit deadline and can’t make up its mind what to do next, it should get stuffed. The EU has a life to lead and it is fed up with the uncertainty. Yet from the balcony things look different.

There is no majority in parliament for leaving without a deal. An attempt by the government to make it do so would fail. It is therefore only the EU that can insist on no deal. And, aside from frustration, why would it do so?

Once a long extension to our negotiations with the EU begins there is a good chance that Brexit will never happen. The most likely scenario is that an attempt by the government to break the deadlock, possibly under a new, harder-line prime minister, brings the Tory government to an end. And it is replaced by a Jeremy Corbyn government elected on a promise of a referendum that offers the choice between remaining and a soft Brexit. Alternatively (a smaller chance, this) the Tories may belatedly appreciate that a second referendum is better for them than an election.

What is the downside in waiting for this? The worst that can happen is that a no-deal prime minister somehow survives or wins an election or, ultimately, that no-deal wins a referendum. Then the EU would be back to its Batna. Which is where it would be in a week’s time anyway. So it will have lost little.

An alternative strategy, of course, would be to make an extension contingent on Britain holding a second referendum. Or using the timetable to try to force a choice between revoking Article 50 and no deal. Yet both these contradict the theory of good negotiation.

The EU wants to win the war, not the battle. It shouldn’t force Britain to a conclusion it will reject or resent. It should instead allow the country to reach its own conclusion. As Ury puts it, “an imposed outcome is an unstable one. Even if you have a decisive power advantage, you should think twice before lunging for victory.” Britain has been offered a deal which it should have accepted but seems likely to reject. Does the EU have the imagination to realise this is not a threat? It’s an opportunity.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2019, 11:50:23 AM
Given that exiting from the EU without a deal takes us into unknown territory (by your own admission) which at the very least will almost certainly be dispruptive and at worst may seriously damage the interests of the UK, and its people as well as the Union itself, is it really a sensible and responsible thing for MPs to take us “over the edge” without a deal?

The only reason we might leave without a deal is because MP's have rejected the withdrawal agreement agreed by the EU and HM Governmebt. The problem is of their making and the solution is in their hands; vote for the WA and move on with negotiating our future relationship.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2019, 12:18:01 PM
Another great article from Danny F in today’s Times:

How the EU can ensure Brexit never happens
Daniel FinkelsteinApril 2 2019, 5:00pm,
Smart negotiation strategy suggests Brussels should say ‘take your time’ to Britain to get the result it’s always wanted


A famous, if apocryphal, story is told of the French statesman Georges Clemenceau negotiating to buy a statuette in a bazaar. The shopkeeper offered it for “only” 75 rupees, while the Frenchman counteroffered with 45 rupees. After that, no matter the haggling, he refused to move. And there they were. Stuck.

Eventually the shopkeeper threw up his hands and said: “You are impossible! I’d rather give it to you.” Clemenceau smiled, pocketed the statuette and said: “Done.” And then he added: “You are very kind, and such a kindness could only come from a friend. Allow me to offer you a gift in return. Will you accept 45 rupees for use in charitable works?”

The shopkeeper accepted the money and they parted on good terms.

The European Union is close to a diplomatic and political triumph. Against all the odds it may be able to conclude its negotiation with the United Kingdom achieving everything it could possibly have wanted. All it needs to do now is show the wit, cunning and courage of Clemenceau in the bazaar.

Here is what I think it should do on April 10. Not what it necessarily will do — that changes every hour as Michel Barnier says one thing and Emmanuel Macron says something else — but what it should do. And what it should do is basically nothing. It should tell Britain that it can stay while it wants to. There will be no deadlines, no conditions, no meetings, no more negotiation. Britain should be told to go away and come back when it is ready.

This may strike the EU as counterintuitive. So I should emphasise that I am not proposing this in Britain’s interest, although I think it is. I am proposing this in the EU’s interest. I think it’s the right thing for it to do if it wants to secure a triumph.

In his book Getting Past No, William Ury, one of the founders of the Harvard Program on Negotiation, has this to say: “Breakthrough negotiation is the art of letting the other person have your way.” And the starting point is identifying both your own interests and your Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement, or Batna. In other words, the arrangement you have to fall back on if you can’t reach a deal. To give an example of a Batna, you are in a much stronger position when negotiating your salary if you have another job offer you can accept if your employer won’t give you a pay rise.

It’s always been in the EU’s interests that Britain should remain a member but that Brussels should not have to abandon its basic principles and in particular its four freedoms: the movement of labour, capital, goods and services. Since at the outset of negotiations this seemed unlikely, the EU has been seeking the best deal short of that. And it’s been helped by the fact that it has a fairly strong Batna and that Britain has a weak one. If the EU can’t get a deal, it can live with the alternative. If Britain can’t, the alternative of living with no deal looks pretty dreadful.

However, it is easy in negotiations to overestimate your Batna. The hard Brexiteers have made this mistake, leading them to wildly overplay a pretty weak hand. Brussels must not make the same mistake. Its Batna is stronger than Britain’s but there are many negotiated deals that would be far better for it than its fallback position.

So it’s still in Brussels’ interests to hang on and get a deal. A deal that would once have seemed highly unlikely but which the grisly errors of the inept hard Brexiteers have made possible. In short, the EU can reasonably aim to keep Britain as a full member.

There is one big thing in the way of securing a good deal. It seems odd to say this when Britain’s behaviour has been so wayward. But the biggest obstacle to Brussels getting what it wants is the EU itself. One of the main obstacles in the way of a successful negotiation is frustration. Who wouldn’t be frustrated negotiating with us? It’s completely understandable.

And totally counterproductive. The overwhelming temptation when dealing with difficult people is to give up and walk out. And that is why Ury advises that “the first step is to control your own behaviour. Instead of reacting, you need to regain your mental balance and stay focused on achieving what you want. The first challenge is don’t react.” This is known as “going to the balcony”, a place from which you can calmly see the problem.

Frustration would dictate telling Britain that if it can’t meet the Brexit deadline and can’t make up its mind what to do next, it should get stuffed. The EU has a life to lead and it is fed up with the uncertainty. Yet from the balcony things look different.

There is no majority in parliament for leaving without a deal. An attempt by the government to make it do so would fail. It is therefore only the EU that can insist on no deal. And, aside from frustration, why would it do so?

Once a long extension to our negotiations with the EU begins there is a good chance that Brexit will never happen. The most likely scenario is that an attempt by the government to break the deadlock, possibly under a new, harder-line prime minister, brings the Tory government to an end. And it is replaced by a Jeremy Corbyn government elected on a promise of a referendum that offers the choice between remaining and a soft Brexit. Alternatively (a smaller chance, this) the Tories may belatedly appreciate that a second referendum is better for them than an election.

What is the downside in waiting for this? The worst that can happen is that a no-deal prime minister somehow survives or wins an election or, ultimately, that no-deal wins a referendum. Then the EU would be back to its Batna. Which is where it would be in a week’s time anyway. So it will have lost little.

An alternative strategy, of course, would be to make an extension contingent on Britain holding a second referendum. Or using the timetable to try to force a choice between revoking Article 50 and no deal. Yet both these contradict the theory of good negotiation.

The EU wants to win the war, not the battle. It shouldn’t force Britain to a conclusion it will reject or resent. It should instead allow the country to reach its own conclusion. As Ury puts it, “an imposed outcome is an unstable one. Even if you have a decisive power advantage, you should think twice before lunging for victory.” Britain has been offered a deal which it should have accepted but seems likely to reject. Does the EU have the imagination to realise this is not a threat? It’s an opportunity.

It is a good article but I'm not convinced that advising the EU how to trap Britain into staying in the EU is entirely admirable.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 12:40:57 PM
It is a good article but I'm not convinced that advising the EU how to trap Britain into staying in the EU is entirely admirable.
They're a bright lot at the EU, I'm sure they'd already worked it out for themselves without Danny's help... 8(0(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 12:42:19 PM
The only reason we might leave without a deal is because MP's have rejected the withdrawal agreement agreed by the EU and HM Governmebt. The problem is of their making and the solution is in their hands; vote for the WA and move on with negotiating our future relationship.
Except that May's deal is not the Brexit that most Leavers voted for as I'm sure they will be happy to tell you.   ?{)(**
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2019, 05:21:20 PM
Why don't you enlighten me as you seem so well informed. What's wrong with it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 05:46:45 PM
Why don't you enlighten me as you seem so well informed. What's wrong with it?
Don’t ask me, I’m a Remainer and I would put up with it, just to make the whole damn thing go away.  However every Leaver I have spoken to thinks it’s a betrayal of Brexit because it locks us in to the EU indefinitely, has them calling the shots and we have to pay them £39 billion for the privilege.  If it was so brilliant why aren’t the ERG getting right behind it?  Ask Angelo and John if they think Mrs May’s deal is any good.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2019, 06:37:42 PM
Don’t ask me, I’m a Remainer and I would put up with it, just to make the whole damn thing go away.  However every Leaver I have spoken to thinks it’s a betrayal of Brexit because it locks us in to the EU indefinitely, has them calling the shots and we have to pay them £39 billion for the privilege.  If it was so brilliant why aren’t the ERG getting right behind it?  Ask Angelo and John if they think Mrs May’s deal is any good.

So your source isn't 'most remainers' just those you have spoken to. How many's that them?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 07:12:15 PM
So your source isn't 'most remainers' just those you have spoken to. How many's that them?
What are you on about?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 07:20:09 PM
Here you go

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-deal-opinion-poll-theresa-may-a8831241.html

Also, it may have escaped your notice but there was a big demonstration outside the House of Commons last weekend.  I don't recall seeing many placards endorsing May's deal.  Now why weren't they all pushing for it to go through if it has so much support amongst Leave voters...?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 07:21:27 PM
Here's another one for you

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-tomorrow-with-the-option-of-remaining-in-the-eu-accepting-the-governments-brexit-agreement-or-leaving-the-eu-without-a-deal-which-would-you-support-2-2/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 07:23:32 PM
From the Telegraph 11/3/19

More than half of the British public does not think the Prime Minister’s Brexit deal delivers on the referendum result, according to a new poll.

The YouGov survey found only 12 per cent of adults think Theresa May's deal honours the leave vote compared to 58 per cent who claim it does not and 31 per cent who don’t know.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2019, 09:12:16 PM
Those aren't the opinions of Leavers, they're mixed. Believe poll results if you wish. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 09:30:09 PM
Those aren't the opinions of Leavers, they're mixed. Believe poll results if you wish.
Sure, and you believe that the majority of Leavers want May’s deal despite providing no evidence that they do.  BTW, if only 12% of those polled supported May’s deal and some of those are possible Remain voters, does it not follow that the majority of those 52% who originally voted leave are against the deal?  If not perhaps you can demonstrate the maths to support your view.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 09:42:09 PM
Hey, wouldn’t it be a good idea to actually hold a referendum to see just how much the GBP support May’s deal?  I guess that would be ultra undemocratic though...  8(8-))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 03, 2019, 11:26:11 PM
Sure, and you believe that the majority of Leavers want May’s deal despite providing no evidence that they do.  BTW, if only 12% of those polled supported May’s deal and some of those are possible Remain voters, does it not follow that the majority of those 52% who originally voted leave are against the deal?  If not perhaps you can demonstrate the maths to support your view.

I don't think I expressed an opinion about the electorate. I suggested that MP's should vote it through and get things moving.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 03, 2019, 11:38:29 PM
I don't think I expressed an opinion about the electorate. I suggested that MP's should vote it through and get things moving.
When I wrote this you seemed intent on disagreeing
“Except that May's deal is not the Brexit that most Leavers voted for as I'm sure they will be happy to tell you”

If you didn’t think I was talking about the electorate who did you think I was referring to?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 04, 2019, 07:29:23 AM
Another article from today’s Times that’s bang on the money IMO

We’re all paying the price for May’s little lie
Jenni RussellApril 3 2019, 5:00pm,
PM couldn’t have known that ‘No deal is better than a bad deal’ would haunt her two years later


You may not know it, but Theresa May — the indecisive, secretive, blinkered, tribal prime minister taking us to the edge of disaster — is a hidden genius. Hold on to that thought.

Here we are, days from crashing out with no deal. Suddenly there’s a chance of averting destruction, as MPs try to block it, and the prime minister abandons hardline Brexiteers in the hope that Jeremy Corbyn will help get a deal through. It’s only a chance, though. Europe’s leaders are still deeply sceptical that we can agree among ourselves within a week, and if we fail, they may refuse us extra time to inflict confusion on them.

You might suppose that Britain, with the exception of a few extremists raging about betrayal, would be hugely relieved at he chance of avoiding no-deal at the thirteenth hour. How could we not be? This week the cabinet secretary’s private briefing to government on no-deal was leaked. It is shocking.

Sir Mark Sedwill predicts devastation for the economy and “significant disruption”. Food prices would rise 10 per cent, fresh produce by more. Our recession would be worse than in 2008.

We would be much more vulnerable to terrorism and crime; losing information-sharing with EU forces would “enormously increase” the pressure on our security services. No-deal in Northern Ireland, with all the tension over imposing border controls, would leave it so unstable that Whitehall would have to reintroduce direct rule from London, an arrangement with a bitter history.

This is an official record of the civil service’s bleak assessment of what threatens us within a fortnight, not hysterical shroud-waving. It reinforces all the warnings we already have, from the EU’s quietly factual briefings last summer to the increasingly agitated pleas from businesses, councils and hospitals for government to grasp how disastrous crashing out would be.

Yet warnings like these are shrugged off by much of the electorate as invented, exaggerated or short-term, because many now think no-deal is just fine. A YouGov poll shows that if there’s no agreement next week, no-deal is the most popular outcome. People would rather crash out than remain, at 44 to 42 per cent. Even if an extension is granted, 40 per cent want no-deal and only 36 per cent to stay in.

This is dumbfounding. This is a country sanguine about declaring sanctions on itself, putting itself out of work, making crime easier, forcing its own lives to become meaner and harder. Only a third of voters believe the warnings about disruption; 45 per cent think them mostly nonsense.

Why have we ended up here? No-deal was never on offer in the referendum. Brexiteers told us how simple, smooth and profitable Brexit would be, from Liam Fox asserting that an agreement with the EU would be the easiest in human history, to Boris Johnson and Michael Gove promising “no sudden changes that would disrupt the economy”. Nigel Farage suggested joining the EEA, while Vote Leave’s Daniel Hannan said no one was threatening our place in the single market and Owen Paterson that “only a madman” would leave it. Nobody proposed a chaotic, bitter Brexit and yet it is now the most popular option.

This remarkable and dangerous transformation of public opinion is principally Theresa May’s achievement. She unintentionally turned a slogan with some short-term usefulness into one of the most convincing, concise and memorable political messages of recent years. She turns out to be one of the most brilliant, if destructive, marketeers in politics. “No deal is better than a bad deal”, a centrepiece of her Lancaster House speech in January 2017, was only ever meant by her to be a convenient figleaf, simultaneously keeping her Brexiteers loyal and convincing the EU that Britain had other options than to agree to compromise.

It failed on both counts. Where it has spectacularly worked, in May’s endless repetition of it and its gleeful adoption by the right-wing press, is that it has sunk deeply into voters’ consciousness, convincing those confronted with Brexit’s unavoidable tradeoffs and difficulties that we needn’t deal with all these tiresome Europeans and their realities. Because no deal is better than a bad one, right?

The tragedy of this convenient strategic lie and its effective brainwashing is twofold. It threatens public backing for the compromise that May is frantically seeking now, bewildering all those voters who believed her. And it was never in any way true. No-deal, in the sense of freedom and independence, is a mirage. It does not exist.

If we left without a deal the very first thing we would have to do, even if ports were not being paralysed by checks, hospitals running out of radiation medicine and fresh food disappearing from shops, would be to open talks with the EU on new trade rules. Except now we would be supplicants, not members, pitching our 60-million market against one ten times the size. We’d be facing their understandable contempt and fury at our reneging on our existing agreements and obligations to them. And their first preconditions for talks would be as now: money, Ireland, citizens’ rights.

Theresa May never dared explain the reality; that no-deal would mean, in practice, the UK’s immediate surrender to the EU’s emergency terms. Now that she is desperately trying to avert the disaster she herself always understood, the prospects of getting MPs and the public to back it are threatened by the success of her own calculating lie.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 04, 2019, 08:24:59 AM
When I wrote this you seemed intent on disagreeing
“Except that May's deal is not the Brexit that most Leavers voted for as I'm sure they will be happy to tell you”

If you didn’t think I was talking about the electorate who did you think I was referring to?

When I asked you to explain how you knew what 'most leavers' thought you mentioned people you had spoken to. They aren't the electorate.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 04, 2019, 09:01:15 AM
Another article from today’s Times that’s bang on the money IMO

We’re all paying the price for May’s little lie
Jenni RussellApril 3 2019, 5:00pm,
PM couldn’t have known that ‘No deal is better than a bad deal’ would haunt her two years later


You may not know it, but Theresa May — the indecisive, secretive, blinkered, tribal prime minister taking us to the edge of disaster — is a hidden genius. Hold on to that thought.

Here we are, days from crashing out with no deal. Suddenly there’s a chance of averting destruction, as MPs try to block it, and the prime minister abandons hardline Brexiteers in the hope that Jeremy Corbyn will help get a deal through. It’s only a chance, though. Europe’s leaders are still deeply sceptical that we can agree among ourselves within a week, and if we fail, they may refuse us extra time to inflict confusion on them.

You might suppose that Britain, with the exception of a few extremists raging about betrayal, would be hugely relieved at he chance of avoiding no-deal at the thirteenth hour. How could we not be? This week the cabinet secretary’s private briefing to government on no-deal was leaked. It is shocking.

Sir Mark Sedwill predicts devastation for the economy and “significant disruption”. Food prices would rise 10 per cent, fresh produce by more. Our recession would be worse than in 2008.

We would be much more vulnerable to terrorism and crime; losing information-sharing with EU forces would “enormously increase” the pressure on our security services. No-deal in Northern Ireland, with all the tension over imposing border controls, would leave it so unstable that Whitehall would have to reintroduce direct rule from London, an arrangement with a bitter history.

This is an official record of the civil service’s bleak assessment of what threatens us within a fortnight, not hysterical shroud-waving. It reinforces all the warnings we already have, from the EU’s quietly factual briefings last summer to the increasingly agitated pleas from businesses, councils and hospitals for government to grasp how disastrous crashing out would be.

Yet warnings like these are shrugged off by much of the electorate as invented, exaggerated or short-term, because many now think no-deal is just fine. A YouGov poll shows that if there’s no agreement next week, no-deal is the most popular outcome. People would rather crash out than remain, at 44 to 42 per cent. Even if an extension is granted, 40 per cent want no-deal and only 36 per cent to stay in.

This is dumbfounding. This is a country sanguine about declaring sanctions on itself, putting itself out of work, making crime easier, forcing its own lives to become meaner and harder. Only a third of voters believe the warnings about disruption; 45 per cent think them mostly nonsense.

Why have we ended up here? No-deal was never on offer in the referendum. Brexiteers told us how simple, smooth and profitable Brexit would be, from Liam Fox asserting that an agreement with the EU would be the easiest in human history, to Boris Johnson and Michael Gove promising “no sudden changes that would disrupt the economy”. Nigel Farage suggested joining the EEA, while Vote Leave’s Daniel Hannan said no one was threatening our place in the single market and Owen Paterson that “only a madman” would leave it. Nobody proposed a chaotic, bitter Brexit and yet it is now the most popular option.

This remarkable and dangerous transformation of public opinion is principally Theresa May’s achievement. She unintentionally turned a slogan with some short-term usefulness into one of the most convincing, concise and memorable political messages of recent years. She turns out to be one of the most brilliant, if destructive, marketeers in politics. “No deal is better than a bad deal”, a centrepiece of her Lancaster House speech in January 2017, was only ever meant by her to be a convenient figleaf, simultaneously keeping her Brexiteers loyal and convincing the EU that Britain had other options than to agree to compromise.

It failed on both counts. Where it has spectacularly worked, in May’s endless repetition of it and its gleeful adoption by the right-wing press, is that it has sunk deeply into voters’ consciousness, convincing those confronted with Brexit’s unavoidable tradeoffs and difficulties that we needn’t deal with all these tiresome Europeans and their realities. Because no deal is better than a bad one, right?

The tragedy of this convenient strategic lie and its effective brainwashing is twofold. It threatens public backing for the compromise that May is frantically seeking now, bewildering all those voters who believed her. And it was never in any way true. No-deal, in the sense of freedom and independence, is a mirage. It does not exist.

If we left without a deal the very first thing we would have to do, even if ports were not being paralysed by checks, hospitals running out of radiation medicine and fresh food disappearing from shops, would be to open talks with the EU on new trade rules. Except now we would be supplicants, not members, pitching our 60-million market against one ten times the size. We’d be facing their understandable contempt and fury at our reneging on our existing agreements and obligations to them. And their first preconditions for talks would be as now: money, Ireland, citizens’ rights.

Theresa May never dared explain the reality; that no-deal would mean, in practice, the UK’s immediate surrender to the EU’s emergency terms. Now that she is desperately trying to avert the disaster she herself always understood, the prospects of getting MPs and the public to back it are threatened by the success of her own calculating lie.

She seems to think no deal is the electorate's most popular option. That must be why MP's are so desparate to put it out of reach. Gpd forbid that the people should get what they want.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 04, 2019, 06:17:30 PM


She seems to think no deal is the electorate's most popular option. That must be why MP's are so desparate to put it out of reach. Gpd forbid that the people should get what they want.
No Deal is certainly more popular than May’s deal with Leave voters, something I keep saying and you keep questioning for some strange reason.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 04, 2019, 06:18:36 PM
When I asked you to explain how you knew what 'most leavers' thought you mentioned people you had spoken to. They aren't the electorate.
I also posted several opinion polls which you dismissed as well.  Carry on in your fantasy land, you clearly aren’t interested in the reality of the situation.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on April 06, 2019, 09:34:14 AM
She seems to think no deal is the electorate's most popular option. That must be why MP's are so desparate to put it out of reach. Gpd forbid that the people should get what they want.

In my experience 'the people' want a stable economy, prosperity and job security.  Is that what Brexit will deliver?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on April 06, 2019, 10:31:43 AM
In my experience 'the people' want a stable economy, prosperity and job security.  Is that what Brexit will deliver?

I for one believe it will.  I have seen with my own eyes the damage the EU has done to the ordinary folks in Spain, youth unemployment was almost 20% at one stage, young people have to go abroad to find gainful employment with most heading to London.  The artificially boosted construction industry has been on its knees for ten years, thousands of new unfinished homes and road projects lie abandoned.

Brexit will provide independence going forward but inevitably there will be teething problems. The UK will at last be able to deal properly and decisively with immigration, the UK and only the UK will decide who we let into our country and for how long.  Illegals can be repatriated and rightly so.

Trade deals can at last be done with the rest of the world when EU tariffs are cast aside.  There will be losers certainly, we hear them whinging constantly on the evening news channel but that again is inevitable with such change. Britain needs to take back control of everything, farming, fishing, industry, laws, immigration etc...

I believe the EU is ultimately doomed in any event, other countries are watching intently as the UK makes the break for independence, I believe others will follow. The EU project has always been about a European superstate, a one size fits all scenario but that isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 06, 2019, 10:41:55 AM
In my experience 'the people' want a stable economy, prosperity and job security.  Is that what Brexit will deliver?

How many even roll-over agreements have been agreed so far?

I can understand that short-term prosperity may be perceived as a necessary sacrifice for a longer-term goal, but - so far - I simply haven't seen anything to substantiate how the UK will ultimately benefit.

I have heard suspicions that there is a move towards making the UK another fiscal paradise, but I don't know enough about that aspect  to comment.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 06, 2019, 10:45:45 AM
I for one believe it will.  I have seen with my own eyes the damage the EU has done to the ordinary folks in Spain, youth unemployment was almost 20% at one stage, young people have to go abroad to find gainful employment with most heading to London.  The artificially boosted construction industry has been on its knees for ten years, thousands of new unfinished homes and road projects lie abandoned.

Brexit will provide independence going forward but inevitably there will be teething problems. The UK will at last be able to deal properly and decisively with immigration, the UK and only the UK will decide who we let into our country and for how long.  Illegals can be repatriated and rightly so.

Trade deals can at last be done with the rest of the world when EU tariffs are cast aside.  There will be losers certainly, we hear them whinging constantly on the evening news channel but that again is inevitable with such change. Britain needs to take back control of everything, farming, fishing, industry, laws, immigration etc...

Could you explain what the EU has done to the ordinary folks in Spain that was detrimental to them?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on April 06, 2019, 10:47:43 AM
Could you explain what the EU has done to the ordinary folks in Spain that was detrimental to them?

Reduced living standards and much unemployment for starters. The minute the Euro was introduced, goods and services shot up in price.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 06, 2019, 11:25:46 AM
In my experience 'the people' want a stable economy, prosperity and job security.  Is that what Brexit will deliver?

The electorate seem to think the EU hasn't delivered what they want, so perhaps Brexit will.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 06, 2019, 05:38:28 PM
The electorate seem to think the EU hasn't delivered what they want, so perhaps Brexit will.
It won’t IMO.  They want fewer immigrants, they won’t get that.  They want to get rid of unelected bureaucrats, they will still have the unelected civil service pulling their strings.  They want the UK to be able to forge advantageous trade deals with the rest of the world without damaging our own industries, that’s highly unlikely, IMO.  They want the United Kingdom to rule the waves again, what United Kingdom?  It will be broken up within the next few years, we will be diminished as a world power.  IMO. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on April 06, 2019, 08:09:39 PM
It won’t IMO.  They want fewer immigrants, they won’t get that.  They want to get rid of unelected bureaucrats, they will still have the unelected civil service pulling their strings.  They want the UK to be able to forge advantageous trade deals with the rest of the world without damaging our own industries, that’s highly unlikely, IMO.  They want the United Kingdom to rule the waves again, what United Kingdom?  It will be broken up within the next few years, we will be diminished as a world power.  IMO.

Are those the correct answers I wonder, or just one opinion of the answers?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 06, 2019, 08:26:00 PM
Are those the correct answers I wonder, or just one opinion of the answers?
My post is littered with IMOs, I think that answers your somewhat superfluous question.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 07, 2019, 01:59:05 PM
Reduced living standards and much unemployment for starters. The minute the Euro was introduced, goods and services shot up in price.


And look at Greece- almost Bankrupt!

The Eastern countries closed their boundaries as did Austria  much against the goodwill of  the  EU ELITE- hard working, above board, totally honest immigrants mostly male mostly African/Asian. arriving by the hunderds.

This will escalate. and civil unrest will prevale.  Does Spain really need thousands of hardworking illegal immigrants getting houses and jobs?   There are differences between an asylum seekers, illegal immigrants and  people who come to live and work here legally from other countries.

This country should also clamp down on Pakistani /Indian men being allowed into this country vis the marriage route. This is abused to the point of disgust. Mentally retarded females marrying and having children to cousins /neighbours to get them into this country. A blind eye has been turned on this for too long!

And Don't even get me started on the new phenomenon about' online love' very vulnerable women in the later years over 60/70 being 'romanced' by evil predators in Africa. It is so sickening.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 07, 2019, 02:45:03 PM
Reduced living standards and much unemployment for starters. The minute the Euro was introduced, goods and services shot up in price.

How would you interpret this graph of GDP in Spain?

https://tradingeconomics.com/spain/gdp-growth
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 07, 2019, 04:13:43 PM

And look at Greece- almost Bankrupt!

The Eastern countries closed their boundaries as did Austria  much against the goodwill of  the  EU ELITE- hard working, above board, totally honest immigrants mostly male mostly African/Asian. arriving by the hunderds.

This will escalate. and civil unrest will prevale.  Does Spain really need thousands of hardworking illegal immigrants getting houses and jobs?   There are differences between an asylum seekers, illegal immigrants and  people who come to live and work here legally from other countries.

This country should also clamp down on Pakistani /Indian men being allowed into this country vis the marriage route. This is abused to the point of disgust. Mentally retarded females marrying and having children to cousins /neighbours to get them into this country. A blind eye has been turned on this for too long!

And Don't even get me started on the new phenomenon about' online love' very vulnerable women in the later years over 60/70 being 'romanced' by evil predators in Africa. It is so sickening.
And absolutely nothing to do with the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on April 07, 2019, 08:28:25 PM
And absolutely nothing to do with the EU.
absolutely nothing to do with the eu...all those indians and pakistanis....and elderly woman on the net...an interesting totally irrelevant post from a leading sceptic...LOL
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 09, 2019, 10:15:38 PM
A Brexiteer comes to his senses, and makes an impassioned case for not departing thr EU without a deal

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 13, 2019, 06:25:06 PM
And absolutely nothing to do with the EU.


Open borders for immigrants to flood small countries- who diodn't want this- and Greece economy everything to do with the EU.

Just because you don't know  you just spit out dummie.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 13, 2019, 09:10:58 PM

Open borders for immigrants to flood small countries- who diodn't want this- and Greece economy everything to do with the EU.

Just because you don't know  you just spit out dummie.
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 15, 2019, 08:04:24 AM

Chat between Farage and Bannon:
https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1117536807242149893

Farage on putting "the fear God into our Members of Parliament" :
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1116646709138870274

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 16, 2019, 05:42:09 PM
Chat between Farage and Bannon:
https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1117536807242149893

Farage on putting "the fear God into our Members of Parliament" :
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1116646709138870274

Poliics and corruption? here in the Uk? what?   (&^&

Oh are we just looking at allegations against Farage..? *%87

Lots of jiucy corruption from EU oligargs.. wanna chat? Unelected President- how much does he cost the EU tax payers and is he good value for money and how the hell could we even argue the point. At least the queen does a kind of job..even though it over pays at a disgusting rate
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on April 16, 2019, 06:03:19 PM
Poliics and corruption? here in the Uk? what?   (&^&

Oh are we just looking at allegations against Farage..? *%87

Lots of jiucy corruption from EU oligargs.. wanna chat? Unelected President- how much does he cost the EU tax payers and is he good value for money and how the hell could we even argue the point. At least the queen does a kind of job..even though it over pays at a disgusting rate
The sooner we're out of this back-slapping, junket-guzzling wastrels' paradise, the better...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafdzdZ3qXc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafdzdZ3qXc)

,,, and that's only the extreme tip of the iceberg.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 20, 2019, 11:37:27 AM
The sooner we're out of this back-slapping, junket-guzzling wastrels' paradise, the better...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafdzdZ3qXc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pafdzdZ3qXc)

,,, and that's only the extreme tip of the iceberg.

OH there is a whole lot more than that hidden from plainsight.  I do not know how much it costs my Euro MP AND IF I ever find out who it is I will ask him/her..No I am not doing a google search I shouldn't have to!

And the Kinnock dynasty:https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kinnocks-on-the-brussels-gravy-train-xcxbdkx6r
mum dad kids all fighting for the UK within the EU


Yeah     Right     champaigne socialists.. mwahahahahahah
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 20, 2019, 05:43:57 PM
OH there is a whole lot more than that hidden from plainsight.  I do not know how much it costs my Euro MP AND IF I ever find out who it is I will ask him/her..No I am not doing a google search I shouldn't have to!

And the Kinnock dynasty:https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kinnocks-on-the-brussels-gravy-train-xcxbdkx6r
mum dad kids all fighting for the UK within the EU


Yeah     Right     champaigne socialists.. mwahahahahahah

I hope your MEP isn't this one:

Former MEP Ashley Mote jailed over expenses fraud
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-33508850

Or this one:
Jailed fraud MEP Peter Skinner told to pay back money
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-43929411


Or this one:
Nigel Farage has MEP salary docked to recoup misspent EU funds

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/12/nigel-farage-eu-salary-docked-claim-misspent-public-funds
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 20, 2019, 06:01:01 PM
A former MEP who fraudulently claimed almost £500,000 in European Parliament expenses has been jailed.

Ashley Mote, 79, was convicted of 12 charges relating to claims for payments to people he said were whistleblowers.

The offences included fraud, acquiring criminal property and false accounting.

Mote, who was elected on a UKIP ticket but sat as an independent MEP for South East England, was sentenced to five years at London's Southwark Crown Court.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: HaroldSloan on April 25, 2019, 08:52:29 PM
All the information about over the counter phentermine (https://thefecaltransplantfoundation.org/phentermine-over-the-counter/) deals in the wind and subject to the conditions of leaving the EU.

Seven British lawmakers on Monday resigned from the Labour Party over its Brexit policies as well as other issues..
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 28, 2019, 11:26:21 PM
Does no one else find this clip of Bannon and Farage disturbing?

https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1122112729970614272
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on April 29, 2019, 09:38:47 AM
Does no one else find this clip of Bannon and Farage disturbing?

https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1122112729970614272

Why disturbing?  We all know it takes lots of cash for a Party to fight these elections and especially so a very new one like the BREXIT Party.  Out of interest Carana, would you prefer that the Tories and Labour remain unchallenged?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 29, 2019, 09:48:44 AM
Why disturbing?  We all know it takes lots of cash for a Party to fight these elections and especially so a very new one like the BREXIT Party.  Out of interest Carana, would you prefer that the Tories and Labour remain unchallenged?

By parties on the far end of either side of the spectrum, no.

Do you?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 30, 2019, 10:08:47 PM
I would say let us look at far right nazis and far left marxists... the [ censored word ]s who can grab power if we are not bloody careful!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 03, 2019, 08:16:20 AM
Overheard in the gym yesterday:

“Have you voted?”

“I certainly have”

“Who got your vote”

“The Lib Dems.  I usually vote Labour but I’m sick of them, can’t stand Corbyn and I’m disgusted that they support remain..  I wish they’d just get on with it and LEAVE!!!”

Everyone in the room (six people) all agree unanimously with this rationale.

LOL.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: TaylorFol on May 08, 2019, 11:04:34 AM
Overheard in the gym yesterday:

“Have you voted?”

“I certainly have”

“Who got your vote”

“The Lib Dems.  I literally love these mini excavators (https://www.villagevoice.com/best-mini-excavators/) and usually vote Labour but I’m sick of them, can’t stand Corbyn and I’m disgusted that they support remain..  I wish they’d just get on with it and LEAVE!!!”

Everyone in the room (six people) all agree unanimously with this rationale.

LOL.

This just shows that people are creatures of habit. They even develop habits when it comes to voting and continue to vote for people they don't agree with just because that's the party they usually vote for. haha
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 08, 2019, 02:00:37 PM
This just shows that people are creatures of habit. They even develop habits when it comes to voting and continue to vote for people they don't agree with just because that's the party they usually vote for. haha

Quite likely, sadly.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 08, 2019, 06:01:28 PM
This just shows that people are creatures of habit. They even develop habits when it comes to voting and continue to vote for people they don't agree with just because that's the party they usually vote for. haha
It shows quite the opposite actually.  It shows Labour leave voters so pissed off with their party for their bewildering stance on Brexit that they’d rather vote Lib Dem (despite their pro European stance), just to stick it to Labour.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2019, 10:58:30 AM
An interesting interview with Farage by Andrew Marr. Farrage is a force to be reckomed with again because his Brexit Party are likely to win the most seats in the European elections.

Farrage wanted to discuss the breakdown of democracy in the UK, which is what the people are discussing according to him. He put it as simply as I see it; Promises were made. votes were cast, and the promises were broken. The political class betrayed the people.

Marr wanted to accuse Farrage of changing his mind about certain things and stuck to asking his qyestions which were intended to show Farrage's inconsistences.

Farrage says it's a crisis of denocracy which the UK is facing and that the two main parties and the BBC are all in denial about that fact. I agree with him. In my opinion he's put his finger on the issue and those ognoring him will do so at their own expense.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 12, 2019, 01:51:19 PM
An interesting interview with Farage by Andrew Marr. Farrage is a force to be reckomed with again because his Brexit Party are likely to win the most seats in the European elections.

Farrage wanted to discuss the breakdown of democracy in the UK, which is what the people are discussing according to him. He put it as simply as I see it; Promises were made. votes were cast, and the promises were broken. The political class betrayed the people.

Marr wanted to accuse Farrage of changing his mind about certain things and stuck to asking his qyestions which were intended to show Farrage's inconsistences.

Farrage says it's a crisis of denocracy which the UK is facing and that the two main parties and the BBC are all in denial about that fact. I agree with him. In my opinion he's put his finger on the issue and those ognoring him will do so at their own expense.
Will you vote for the Brexit Party in the forthcoming EU elections then?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2019, 05:53:46 PM
An interesting interview with Farage by Andrew Marr. Farrage is a force to be reckomed with again because his Brexit Party are likely to win the most seats in the European elections.

Farrage wanted to discuss the breakdown of democracy in the UK, which is what the people are discussing according to him. He put it as simply as I see it; Promises were made. votes were cast, and the promises were broken. The political class betrayed the people.

Marr wanted to accuse Farrage of changing his mind about certain things and stuck to asking his qyestions which were intended to show Farrage's inconsistences.

Farrage says it's a crisis of denocracy which the UK is facing and that the two main parties and the BBC are all in denial about that fact. I agree with him. In my opinion he's put his finger on the issue and those ognoring him will do so at their own expense.

What exactly does he propose?

He's already said that "Brexit isn't going to solve any of our domestic problems"...
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/878219696927002625
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 12, 2019, 06:16:51 PM
What exactly does he propose?

He's already said that "Brexit isn't going to solve any of our domestic problems"...
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/878219696927002625
I was just enjoying a quiet snooze in the sunshine when the noise of a light aircraft woke me up.  I looked skyward to see. small plane pulling a “Vote Brexit Party” banner.  Bloody Nigel, can’t even escape him in the privacy of my own garden!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2019, 08:24:19 AM
I've watched many politicians being interviewed and none of them can deny that they have failed to implement  Brexit. They have a multitude of ezcuses but that doesn't change the fact that they have ignored the people's vote. That vote only happened because of Farrage and he's only back because the politicians seem unable tp understand the damage they've done to democracy. Farrage's aim this time is to change our democracy by ending the two party system. I would advise politicians not to underestimate him.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 13, 2019, 09:42:49 PM
I've watched many politicians being interviewed and none of them can deny that they have failed to implement  Brexit. They have a multitude of ezcuses but that doesn't change the fact that they have ignored the people's vote. That vote only happened because of Farrage and he's only back because the politicians seem unable tp understand the damage they've done to democracy. Farrage's aim this time is to change our democracy by ending the two party system. I would advise politicians not to underestimate him.
So you keep saying.Considering how jolly important you think he is perhaps you could learn to spell his name right?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 13, 2019, 09:44:54 PM
I'm voting UKIP as I believe in freedom to joke about rape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7AmUV2wGIY
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on May 13, 2019, 09:57:07 PM
Is anyone able to explain to me why the Brexit Party considers it necessary to field candidates in the forthcoming MEP elections?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on May 13, 2019, 10:00:19 PM
Is anyone able to explain to me why the Brexit Party considers it necessary to field candidates in the forthcoming MEP elections?

Farage wants to embarrassing the UK government by sending Brexit MEPs to the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 13, 2019, 10:07:27 PM
I'm voting UKIP as I believe in freedom to joke about rape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7AmUV2wGIY
6&%5%
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on May 13, 2019, 10:16:31 PM
Farage wants to embarrassing the UK government by sending Brexit MEPs to the EU.

Nothing to do with wanting additional salary & pension for himself but blow anyone who doesn't qualify if we leave by October?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 13, 2019, 11:12:03 PM
Is anyone able to explain to me why the Brexit Party considers it necessary to field candidates in the forthcoming MEP elections?

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1127564798298918912 ?

Have you seen the video of Bannon chatting to Farage?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on May 14, 2019, 12:56:54 AM
https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1127564798298918912 ?

Have you seen the video of Bannon chatting to Farage?

I've just watched it. So is Farage trying to get an Alt-Right group into mainstream UK politics by the back door?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2019, 05:57:36 AM
I've just watched it. So is Farage trying to get an Alt-Right group into mainstream UK politics by the back door?

There's also a longish documentary CH4 (?). Seems to be the goal for elsewhere in Europe as well.

Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pold15c8H70

And https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/1127552223322546176
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2019, 07:23:51 AM
No comment...

https://twitter.com/MikeStuchbery_/status/1127991493837426688
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2019, 09:00:46 AM
'Now is the time': the journalists fighting fake news before the EU elections

With warnings of likely Russian meddling, Europe’s debunkers are picking up the pace

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/16/now-is-the-time-the-journalists-fighting-fake-news-before-the-eu-elections

I'm still trying to work out:

a) how far Russia (plus possibly other players) and the US / UK (or pan-EU) far-right are actively collaborating for financial or other strategic benefits;

b) whether there's an ad hoc passive mutual support system; or

c) to what extent there may simply be an abundance of fortuitous connections...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2019, 09:13:34 AM
I've watched many politicians being interviewed and none of them can deny that they have failed to implement  Brexit. They have a multitude of ezcuses but that doesn't change the fact that they have ignored the people's vote. That vote only happened because of Farrage and he's only back because the politicians seem unable tp understand the damage they've done to democracy. Farrage's aim this time is to change our democracy by ending the two party system. I would advise politicians not to underestimate him.

I can agree with part of that, G-Unit, except that in 2016 all that was on the ballot paper was "Leave" or "Remain".

Not even the politicians seem to agree on what "Leave" meant in terms of formula, nor what each could entail, so how could the electorate?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2019, 09:22:29 AM
Farage wants to embarrassing the UK government by sending Brexit MEPs to the EU.

How will that improve the revenue from your farm, John?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2019, 09:46:29 AM
I can agree with part of that, G-Unit, except that in 2016 all that was on the ballot paper was "Leave" or "Remain".

Not even the politicians seem to agree on what "Leave" meant in terms of formula, nor what each could entail, so how could the electorate?

The difference between Leave and Remain is perfectly clear to me, and, I suspect, to politicians alsi. It's not that they don't understand, imo, it's that they don't want to admit that they understand.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 17, 2019, 09:51:31 AM
How will that improve the revenue from your farm, John?

Is  improving revenue the only thing that matters?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 17, 2019, 04:45:49 PM
Is  improving revenue the only thing that matters?
it is if you want to keep the farm. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2019, 07:26:07 PM
it is if you want to keep the farm.

Even keeping revenue stable..
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2019, 08:43:30 PM
For VS (and for Alice),

Leave.EU founder confirms he funded Nigel Farage in year after referendum

Nigel Farage received £450,000 from the founder of pro-Brexit group Leave.EU in the year after the Brexit referendum.

Items paid for by Arron Banks included Mr Farage's London home, his car and trips to the US to meet Donald Trump.

A spokesman for Mr Banks confirmed the amount and what it had been used for, saying it was an "honour to help".

Asked about the funding following an investigation by Channel 4 News, Mr Farage - who now leads the Brexit party - said it was a private matter.

Speaking at the launch of the Brexit party campaign in Scotland, Mr Farage said he did not declare the it to the European Parliament because he was about to leave politics and had been seeking a new life in the US.

He added his actions had been non-political.

Mr Farage has been a member of the European Parliament since 1999.

He led UKIP in the run-up to the 2016 EU referendum, campaigning alongside Leave.EU, of which Mr Banks was a major financier.

Mr Farage stepped down as leader later the same year, but remained as an MEP.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48315552
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 24, 2019, 12:19:20 PM
it is if you want to keep the farm.

Is there anything more important than money in your opinion?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 24, 2019, 05:05:58 PM
Is there anything more important than money in your opinion?
Keeping the farm is more than just being about money.  It’s about your purpose in life, it’s about a roof over your head, it’s about performing a service for the people of this country, it’s about carrying on a family business, it’s about caring for the countryside and the creatures that occupy it , it’s about keeping people employed rurally rather than forcing them to move to the cities.  I find your constant accusations to me that I am solely money focused more than a little insulting so kindly refrain in future.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 24, 2019, 08:15:18 PM
'Now is the time': the journalists fighting fake news before the EU elections

With warnings of likely Russian meddling, Europe’s debunkers are picking up the pace

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/16/now-is-the-time-the-journalists-fighting-fake-news-before-the-eu-elections

I'm still trying to work out:

a) how far Russia (plus possibly other players) and the US / UK (or pan-EU) far-right are actively collaborating for financial or other strategic benefits;

b) whether there's an ad hoc passive mutual support system; or

c) to what extent there may simply be an abundance of fortuitous connections...


Well now that you mention it. the EU has been secretly been at the UK for years to get rid of the NHS in the UK and have it privatised- which it has done. (The partnerships) this opened the door for 'charities' and greed merchants to provide 'services' and they need zero hours slave labour types of conditions - hence immigration being 'important'. Wages have been driven down- work loads have increased- nurses have become 'corporate dahlings' meetings meetings lots of meetings.  Yes money has poured into the NHS but none for direct patient care. And don't even ask about Technology companies...

Don't ask me I only observe it.. the stats say everything is fantastic and wonderful and we are not privitising the NHS- very true they are not -because they have already done so!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2019, 07:41:07 AM
Keeping the farm is more than just being about money.  It’s about your purpose in life, it’s about a roof over your head, it’s about performing a service for the people of this country, it’s about carrying on a family business, it’s about caring for the countryside and the creatures that occupy it , it’s about keeping people employed rurally rather than forcing them to move to the cities.  I find your constant accusations to me that I am solely money focused more than a little insulting so kindly refrain in future.  Thank you.

Looking back it wasn't you who mentioned 'improving revenue' in reply to John's post, but you clearly agreed. I can;t work out why it was raised, as John wasn't posting about finance at all. In my opinion the economy seems to be the focus for some people, overriding any other considerations. I apologise if you're not one of them, but you do seem to mention it a lot.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 25, 2019, 08:05:06 AM
Looking back it wasn't you who mentioned 'improving revenue' in reply to John's post, but you clearly agreed. I can;t work out why it was raised, as John wasn't posting about finance at all. In my opinion the economy seems to be the focus for some people, overriding any other considerations. I apologise if you're not one of them, but you do seem to mention it a lot.
I do because I think it is of utmost importance to the lives of a country’s inhabitants.  Where you have an economy in crisis (Zimbabwe, Venezuela, etc) you also have the people in crisis.  This is not a good thing, it’s not even a tolerable thing in my view.  Maybe you think it is?  I don’t know.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 25, 2019, 09:22:45 AM
For VS (and for Alice),

Leave.EU founder confirms he funded Nigel Farage in year after referendum

Nigel Farage received £450,000 from the founder of pro-Brexit group Leave.EU in the year after the Brexit referendum.

Items paid for by Arron Banks included Mr Farage's London home, his car and trips to the US to meet Donald Trump.

A spokesman for Mr Banks confirmed the amount and what it had been used for, saying it was an "honour to help".

Asked about the funding following an investigation by Channel 4 News, Mr Farage - who now leads the Brexit party - said it was a private matter.

Speaking at the launch of the Brexit party campaign in Scotland, Mr Farage said he did not declare the it to the European Parliament because he was about to leave politics and had been seeking a new life in the US.

He added his actions had been non-political.

Mr Farage has been a member of the European Parliament since 1999.

He led UKIP in the run-up to the 2016 EU referendum, campaigning alongside Leave.EU, of which Mr Banks was a major financier.

Mr Farage stepped down as leader later the same year, but remained as an MEP.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48315552


The focus on Farage as a negitive entity is pointless. the whole parliament has been drawn over hot coals for expenses ans housing scams. all major players and across the parties - you show a lack of independant thinking if you believe bad mouthing one politician is going to persuade anyone not to vote  for him/her.

As the far right are constantly being hammered  by the press and that wonderful non murdering lovie group of Stalin followers. 'lefties' who seem to get a better press by slagging off the nazis. be warned, it is wise to listen to what the far right have to say,we need to knw what they are up to, unlike the Stalinistas who say nothing except to shout down the far right.

Oh and to talk about democracy  on one hand and demand the far right be silenced does not make any sence.  what you want is a dictatorship .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 25, 2019, 10:20:43 AM
I do because I think it is of utmost importance to the lives of a country’s inhabitants.  Where you have an economy in crisis (Zimbabwe, Venezuela, etc) you also have the people in crisis.  This is not a good thing, it’s not even a tolerable thing in my view.  Maybe you think it is?  I don’t know.

I would argue that it's political choices which affect the lives of the people. Post WW2 political choices led to the creation of the Welfare State, slum clearances, council house building and full enployment. The economy wasn't doing well at the time.

More recently it was political choices which led to the poorest bearing the brunt of the Conservative's austerity measures.

Having a successful economy doesn't guarantee that the people's lives will improve, that's up to the politicians.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 25, 2019, 02:28:14 PM

The focus on Farage as a negitive entity is pointless. the whole parliament has been drawn over hot coals for expenses ans housing scams. all major players and across the parties - you show a lack of independant thinking if you believe bad mouthing one politician is going to persuade anyone not to vote  for him/her.

As the far right are constantly being hammered  by the press and that wonderful non murdering lovie group of Stalin followers. 'lefties' who seem to get a better press by slagging off the nazis. be warned, it is wise to listen to what the far right have to say,we need to knw what they are up to, unlike the Stalinistas who say nothing except to shout down the far right.

Oh and to talk about democracy  on one hand and demand the far right be silenced does not make any sence.  what you want is a dictatorship .

I think I've stated enough times on here that I don't support extremists of any flavour.  Both impose dictatorships, and many ultimately only favour the few, generally families, friends and wannabes.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 25, 2019, 02:33:42 PM

The focus on Farage as a negitive entity is pointless. the whole parliament has been drawn over hot coals for expenses ans housing scams. all major players and across the parties - you show a lack of independant thinking if you believe bad mouthing one politician is going to persuade anyone not to vote  for him/her.

As the far right are constantly being hammered  by the press and that wonderful non murdering lovie group of Stalin followers. 'lefties' who seem to get a better press by slagging off the nazis. be warned, it is wise to listen to what the far right have to say,we need to knw what they are up to, unlike the Stalinistas who say nothing except to shout down the far right.

Oh and to talk about democracy  on one hand and demand the far right be silenced does not make any sence.  what you want is a dictatorship .

You might have a point.

Farage doesn't seem to seek to actually have to do anything other than rabble-rouse, leaving more "acceptable" options appear as a comparatively palatable alternative.

I'd say the same if there was someone rabble-rousing for a new Soviet-style state for the UK, with Corbyn as an alternative on that side.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 25, 2019, 05:32:57 PM
I would argue that it's political choices which affect the lives of the people. Post WW2 political choices led to the creation of the Welfare State, slum clearances, council house building and full enployment. The economy wasn't doing well at the time.

More recently it was political choices which led to the poorest bearing the brunt of the Conservative's austerity measures.

Having a successful economy doesn't guarantee that the people's lives will improve, that's up to the politicians.
Who talked about guarantees?  IMO you are refusing to face facts.  An economy in crisis always has negative effects on society.  Politcal choices (eg choosing a no-deal Brexit) will IMO throw the country into economic crisis which will effect the poorest in our society the worst.  This apparently makes me obsessed with money according to you,  Oh well.  So be it. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 26, 2019, 11:20:39 AM
I would argue that it's political choices which affect the lives of the people. Post WW2 political choices led to the creation of the Welfare State, slum clearances, council house building and full enployment. The economy wasn't doing well at the time.

More recently it was political choices which led to the poorest bearing the brunt of the Conservative's austerity measures.

Having a successful economy doesn't guarantee that the people's lives will improve, that's up to the politicians.



Indeed it is all about wealth distrubution- making sure help goes to the needy not the greedy or the lazy.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 26, 2019, 03:13:30 PM


Indeed it is all about wealth distrubution- making sure help goes to the needy not the greedy or the lazy.

What concrete plan has been presented by the no-deal Brexiteers that would clearly help those in need?

What's the Brexit Party's manifesto for the UK's future?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 26, 2019, 10:55:58 PM
Farage is doing as expected so far and the Lib Dems are saying people are voting for Remain.  *%87
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 26, 2019, 11:12:24 PM
Farage is doing as expected so far and the Lib Dems are saying people are voting for Remain.  *%87
From what I can see so fsr it’s neck and neck between The Brexit Party and The Lib Dem/Greens, pretty much reflecting a 50/50 split.

Labour are doing well aren’t they?   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 26, 2019, 11:42:06 PM
So far, only 32% of the vote supports a no deal Brexit.  Interesting...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 08:38:43 AM
Very interesting results in the EU elections.  On the face of it it would appear that the country is gung ho for a no deal Brexit, until you examine the actual percentages of votes and see that the Lib Dems and Greens (both parties determined to stop Brexit) gained 5% more of the vote than the Brexit Party. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2019, 08:54:50 AM
Very interesting results in the EU elections.  On the face of it it would appear that the country is gung ho for a no deal Brexit, until you examine the actual percentages of votes and see that the Lib Dems and Greens (both parties determined to stop Brexit) gained 5% more of the vote than the Brexit Party.

In my opinion there's a significant difference between the gains by the Brexit Party and those by the Lib Dems and the Greens. A vote for the Brexit Party is a vote to leave the EU and nothing else because it stood on just one issue. The other parties votes weren't necessarily votes to remain in the EU, they may have been prompted by other issues.

The two main parties have been punished for their failure to listen to the Electorate and they now have to decide what to do about Farage's threat. If the UK doesn't leave the EU on October 31st the Brexit Party will fight a General Election.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2019, 09:07:15 AM
In my opinion there's a significant difference between the gains by the Brexit Party and those by the Lib Dems and the Greens. A vote for the Brexit Party is a vote to leave the EU and nothing else because it stood on just one issue. The other parties votes weren't necessarily votes to remain in the EU, they may have been prompted by other issues.

The two main parties have been punished for their failure to listen to the Electorate and they now have to decide what to do about Farage's threat. If the UK doesn't leave the EU on October 31st the Brexit Party will fight a General Election.

Here the overwhelming vote was for the SNP whose main election campaigning was to remain!
Further evidence of the deep division between the wishes of the Scottish electorate and those of England and Wales.IMO
Interesting times ahead.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 09:26:37 AM
In my opinion there's a significant difference between the gains by the Brexit Party and those by the Lib Dems and the Greens. A vote for the Brexit Party is a vote to leave the EU and nothing else because it stood on just one issue. The other parties votes weren't necessarily votes to remain in the EU, they may have been prompted by other issues.

The two main parties have been punished for their failure to listen to the Electorate and they now have to decide what to do about Farage's threat. If the UK doesn't leave the EU on October 31st the Brexit Party will fight a General Election.
I very much doubt that a single person who wants a no deal Brexit voted for the Lib Dems or the Greens.  I would take these results as very much a rejection of a no deal Brexit by the people of the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 09:27:36 AM
Here the overwhelming vote was for the SNP whose main election campaigning was to remain!
Further evidence of the deep division between the wishes of the Scottish electorate and those of England and Wales.IMO
Interesting times ahead.
Wales too has turned from a Brexit supporting to a Remain supporting country.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2019, 09:37:21 AM
Wales too has turned from a Brexit supporting to a Remain supporting country.

Sorry I  didn't realise that!
Will have a look.

We have been a consistently remain supporting country !
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 10:13:14 AM
Sorry I  didn't realise that!
Will have a look.

We have been a consistently remain supporting country !
Brexit won the most seats in Wales but when you combine PC, Greens, Lib Dems etc, the Remain vote was much higher.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 10:15:36 AM
What the results do show is that the public isn’t interested in compromise and fudge.  It boils down to Remain or No deal.  Time for a second referendum methinks, though it pains me to say it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2019, 10:32:51 AM
Here the overwhelming vote was for the SNP whose main election campaigning was to remain!
Further evidence of the deep division between the wishes of the Scottish electorate and those of England and Wales.IMO
Interesting times ahead.

Nothng much has changed since the Referendum it seems to me. England and Wales want to leave the EU, Scotland (and probably N. Ireland) don't. I can understand the frustration, but membership of the EU is a UK matter, not a regional matter. That's why the Referendum was a UK matter and so was the result. I think Scotland is in a similar position to Catalonia perhaps, where a region has diferent wants than the whole.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2019, 10:49:14 AM
What the results do show is that the public isn’t interested in compromise and fudge.  It boils down to Remain or No deal.  Time for a second referendum methinks, though it pains me to say it.

IThe UK voted to leave the EU in a democratic Referendum. It's politicians used every excuse they could think of to deny the people what they voted for. A second referendum is clearly intended to overturn the first result. The message the people will get is that democracy counts for nothing in the opinion of our politicians, and will only be honoured if they like the results.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 11:07:51 AM
IThe UK voted to leave the EU in a democratic Referendum. It's politicians used every excuse they could think of to deny the people what they voted for. A second referendum is clearly intended to overturn the first result. The message the people will get is that democracy counts for nothing in the opinion of our politicians, and will only be honoured if they like the results.
These results show overwhelmingly  that the people of Britain do not support a no deal Brexit yet you believe this is what they deserve.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2019, 11:28:08 AM
Nothng much has changed since the Referendum it seems to me. England and Wales want to leave the EU, Scotland (and probably N. Ireland) don't. I can understand the frustration, but membership of the EU is a UK matter, not a regional matter. That's why the Referendum was a UK matter and so was the result. I think Scotland is in a similar position to Catalonia perhaps, where a region has diferent wants than the whole.

Scotland is not a region of the UK.
It is one of the four countries of the UK.
It's this sense of being controlled by a government which is not elected by us which is driving the voice for Independence.
No matter what we as a nation vote for, we will always have the government which England votes for.
Yes you are correct to describe it as frustration!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2019, 12:56:13 PM
These results show overwhelmingly  that the people of Britain do not support a no deal Brexit yet you believe this is what they deserve.

I'm sorry, but I think you are as deeply in denial as our politicians are. The Brexit Party won on that issue.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 12:58:23 PM
I'm sorry, but I think you are as deeply in denial as our politicians are. The Brexit Party won on that issue.
Can you explain how Brexit Party's  35% share of the vote = a mandate by the people of the UK for a No Deal Brexit? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2019, 01:10:44 PM
No worries guys, Anne Widdecombe to the rescue.

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1132895182247084037

I thought this was a comedy sketch at first...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2019, 01:12:32 PM
Scotland is not a region of the UK.
It is one of the four countries of the UK.
It's this sense of being controlled by a government which is not elected by us which is driving the voice for Independence.
No matter what we as a nation vote for, we will always have the government which England votes for.
Yes you are correct to describe it as frustration!


Scotland seems to want to have it's cake and eat it. They don't want tp be inderpendant and they don't want to accept a majority UK vote.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 01:16:23 PM
No worries guys, Anne Widdecombe to the rescue.

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1132895182247084037

I thought this was a comedy sketch at first...
Drunk on victory methinks.   @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 01:17:27 PM


Scotland seems to want to have it's cake and eat it. They don't want tp be inderpendant and they don't want to accept a majority UK vote.
What did the majority of the UK vote for in the EU elections held last week? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2019, 01:19:33 PM
Can you explain how Brexit Party's  35% share of the vote = a mandate by the people of the UK for a No Deal Brexit?

Voting percentages mean nothing in our system. If they did many of our elected governments had no mandate. The Brexit Party won in most of the regions of the UK and that's their mandate.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2019, 01:21:35 PM


Scotland seems to want to have it's cake and eat it. They don't want tp be inderpendant and they don't want to accept a majority UK vote.


I think that some who did not vote for independence because that would have meant being outside the EU, would now vote for Independence.
Also in my opinion many are sickened by Westminster and there does seem to be a growing number of young voters who favour Independence.

Those you describe above are not the whole of Scotland voters.
These are folk who do not want Independence and are quite content with whatever the UK majority decide.
Hardly the entire nation of Scotland !
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2019, 01:23:57 PM
Voting percentages mean nothing in our system. If they did many of our elected governments had no mandate. The Brexit Party won in most of the regions of the UK and that's their mandate.

Surely you mean the Brexit Party won in most of the regions of England.
The SNP won every constituency of Scotland as far as I know. ( One still to declare)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2019, 01:52:00 PM

I think that some who did not vote for independence because that would have meant being outside the EU, would now vote for Independence.
Also in my opinion many are sickened by Westminster and there does seem to be a growing number of young voters who favour Independence.

Those you describe above are not the whole of Scotland voters.
These are folk who do not want Independence and are quite content with whatever the UK majority decide.
Hardly the entire nation of Scotland !

They may not be the entire nation of Scotland but they were the majority in the Independence vote. They're not the only people in the UK to be sick of Westminster either, judging by the votes in the EU elections. Being sick of Westminster isn't the same as wanting to exit the UK.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2019, 01:55:16 PM
Surely you mean the Brexit Party won in most of the regions of England.
The SNP won every constituency of Scotland as far as I know. ( One still to declare)

Much as you want to see Scotland as independent, they're not. When it comes to voting in UK elections they have to abide by the majority verdict.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2019, 02:02:23 PM
Much as you want to see Scotland as independent, they're not. When it comes to voting in UK elections they have to abide by the majority verdict.

Yes I know and appreciate that fact, as do many of my fellow Scots.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 02:10:23 PM
Voting percentages mean nothing in our system. If they did many of our elected governments had no mandate. The Brexit Party won in most of the regions of the UK and that's their mandate.
Their mandate is to sit in an EU parliament (which they are 100% against) if we haven't already left the EU by the 31st October.  That's all.  It may be "our system" to disregard the percentages but I think only a fool would turn a blind eye to the message this election sends out - the people do not want a no deal Brexit.  It's as clear as day. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2019, 02:16:59 PM
They may not be the entire nation of Scotland but they were the majority in the Independence vote. They're not the only people in the UK to be sick of Westminster either, judging by the votes in the EU elections. Being sick of Westminster isn't the same as wanting to exit the UK.

It is !
Most folk who voted Brexit were sick of the EU and wanted to exit!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 27, 2019, 02:38:20 PM
A comment I agree with in the Times today

"Even if you assume that the overwhelming majority of Conservative votes were pro-Brexit and 2/3 of Labour votes were pro-Remain, with other voters aligned with their respective party policies, the UK has decisively changed its mind on leaving the EU.  We would now vote roughly 53/47 in favour of remaining a full member. So why bother agonising over the various unappealing 'leave' options? A 2nd referendum will decide it.  And if I'm wrong and we still vote to leave, at least it will help to heal the rift in society".

I vote we abandon any further negotiation with the EU, and instead there should be a second referendum to take place on October 1st - Exit on WTO Rules or Remain.  The result should be legally binding so that if Leave wins then we leave on 31st October, and nothing can be done to stop it happening.  If we vote Remain, then there should be a legally binding re-referendum five years hence.  That's what I'd do anyway...  8(>((
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2019, 03:28:21 PM
It is !
Most folk who voted Brexit were sick of the EU and wanted to exit!

That isn't the same at all. One lot voted to leave an institution they were sick of, the others voted to remain in an institution they are allegedly sick of.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2019, 04:28:00 PM
That isn't the same at all. One lot voted to leave an institution they were sick of, the others voted to remain in an institution they are allegedly sick of.


You will have to explain the two lots.
Which lot is which?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 27, 2019, 11:08:53 PM

I think that some who did not vote for independence because that would have meant being outside the EU, would now vote for Independence.
Also in my opinion many are sickened by Westminster and there does seem to be a growing number of young voters who favour Independence.

Those you describe above are not the whole of Scotland voters.
These are folk who do not want Independence and are quite content with whatever the UK majority decide.
Hardly the entire nation of Scotland !

I disagree the scottish majority of people who voted did not want independance. move on
The majority  of Scottish people did not vote  to stay in the EU move on.
Making wild claims does not change anything.

One has to ask these young people who want independance from the Uk because they are fed up with Westminster (who isn't these days!) ruling over them-  why the hell stay in a dictatorship ruled by a president un elected people who do not share our culture and language tell us how to run our economy- where is the evidence Scotland will flourish away from Englasn and within the UK.


You need to look at the borders between the Scotland and England to get to the  the EU.. the land the sea, the airspace...
Its not like England would let us traipse through their country using their roads and stuff.. I see the HADRIANS WALL being built higher...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 27, 2019, 11:44:26 PM
I disagree the scottish majority of people who voted did not want independance. move on
The majority  of Scottish people did not vote  to stay in the EU move on.
Making wild claims does not change anything.

One has to ask these young people who want independance from the Uk because they are fed up with Westminster (who isn't these days!) ruling over them-  why the hell stay in a dictatorship ruled by a president un elected people who do not share our culture and language tell us how to run our economy- where is the evidence Scotland will flourish away from Englasn and within the UK.


You need to look at the borders between the Scotland and England to get to the  the EU.. the land the sea, the airspace...
Its not like England would let us traipse through their country using their roads and stuff.. I see the HADRIANS WALL being built higher...

What utter rubbish! IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2019, 08:48:45 AM
What utter rubbish! IMO.

Why is it rubbish? It's true that the Scottish peopke voted to remain in the UK. Having done that they must accept and abide by majority decisions made in the UK in my opinion. .
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 28, 2019, 08:54:29 AM
Why is it rubbish? It's true that the Scottish peopke voted to remain in the UK. Having done that they must accept and abide by majority decisions made in the UK in my opinion. .

Is that your interpretation and understanding of the entirety of Mistakens post?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2019, 01:21:01 PM
Is that your interpretation and understanding of the entirety of Mistakens post?

My post was longer than yours lol.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 28, 2019, 03:50:09 PM
My post was longer than yours lol.

You're correct, it was.
I couldn't think of an appropriate response without having my post deleted. Lol.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 28, 2019, 06:43:44 PM
You're correct, it was.
I couldn't think of an appropriate response without having my post deleted. Lol.

 @)(++(*

You don't even have the correct words to reply to the post content because there are none forth coming from any one who shouts for Independance.

And you are short for words because you cannot answer can you? so you show yourself up as being totally ignorant of facts and real concerns which are being hidden from view. Why not just own up to your ignorance instead of calling my post utter rubbish  can you prove it to be utter rubbish if so say so. It is  DEBATE afterall.

1. If Scotland get independance will England keep an open border?
2. would England really let the EU and Scotland continue to allow their free trade  pass through their land/sea/air space?
3. If the Scottish want independance what kind of independance do they seek? They would not get independance in the EU that is an absolute certainty, they will still be ruled by unelected beaurocrats. with a president, who couldn't care less about Scotland. As Scotland unlike the UK is not a rich country.

SO let's have your argument to contradict this post...

While you at atv it perhaps you could give a cite where the Majority of Scottish people voted for independance and  to stay in the EU.

Thanks in advance.


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 28, 2019, 07:07:17 PM
@)(++(*

You don't even have the correct words to reply to the post content because there are none forth coming from any one who shouts for Independance.

And you are short for words because you cannot answer can you? so you show yourself up as being totally ignorant of facts and real concerns which are being hidden from view. Why not just own up to your ignorance instead of calling my post utter rubbish  can you prove it to be utter rubbish if so say so. It is  DEBATE afterall.

1. If Scotland get independance will England keep an open border?
2. would England really let the EU and Scotland continue to allow their free trade  pass through their land/sea/air space?
3. If the Scottish want independance what kind of independance do they seek? They would not get independance in the EU that is an absolute certainty, they will still be ruled by unelected beaurocrats. with a president, who couldn't care less about Scotland. As Scotland unlike the UK is not a rich country.

SO let's have your argument to contradict this post...

While you at atv it perhaps you could give a cite where the Majority of Scottish people voted for independance and  to stay in the EU.

Thanks in advance.

Firstly the correct spelling of the word is independence.

Secondly you do seem to get rather rattled by the whole concept of independence.
Calm down, it may not happen. But I do hope it does.

Thirdly where do get the absurd idea that England would close their roads, sea and air space to their nearest neighbour?
You do seem to regard the concept of Scotland being an independent country as some kind of declaration of war against England and the English.How absurd!

Fourthly Scotland isn't a poor country, it's rich in natural resources, many of which are in huge demand.
It's a pity you have such a negative and pessimistic view of your own country.

Scotland did not vote for Independence five years ago.
 This may not be the case in the next referendum

Scotland has certainly voted to remain in the EU.
You don't like that because of your negative and jaundiced view of the EU.
You must accept that not everyone shares those views.
The people of Scotland have shown they do not.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 28, 2019, 07:35:32 PM
Firstly the correct spelling of the word is independence.

Secondly you do seem to get rather rattled by the whole concept of independence.
Calm down, it may not happen. But I do hope it does.

Thirdly where do get the absurd idea that England would close their roads, sea and air space to their nearest neighbour?
You do seem to regard the concept of Scotland being an independent country as some kind of declaration of war against England and the English.How absurd!

Fourthly Scotland isn't a poor country, it's rich in natural resources, many of which are in huge demand.
It's a pity you have such a negative and pessimistic view of your own country.

Scotland did not vote for Independence five years ago.
 This may not be the case in the next referendum

Scotland has certainly voted to remain in the EU.
You don't like that because of your negative and jaundiced view of the EU.
You must accept that not everyone shares those views.
The people of Scotland have shown they do not.


There now that wasn't too difficult was it?  Thank you for correcting my typos. I have a valid reason. I won't share.
I never get rattled- put downs don't affect me and your opinion even less!

Thirdly where do get the absurd idea that England would close their roads, sea and air space to their nearest neighbour?

Has this been discussed behind my back?  Do you have evidence to say this could not happen- but just a reminder   France is also a near neighbour of England! oops

you do seem to regard the concept of Scotland being an independent country as some kind of declaration of war against England and the English.How absurd!

Why the seperation in a hurry after being told no to independence- there is a Section of the Scottish community who hate the english- deny if you like- it is true.

Scotland has certainly voted to remain in the EU.

Well that vote must have not reached me becaus I have never seen a voting paper asking for Scotland to stay within the EU.

But ofcourse you are going by SNP rhetoric about the majority of a minority didn't vote to leave. Tsk tsk.

 I do not have  negative view or Europe at all I can't imagine where you got that from. I am a  realist and I like to know what is going on- the truth being hidden is not my idea of democracy.

So anyhoo, you never did answer my question- why leave England to be independent to not be independent in the EU?

Scotland is not a rich country check our debts...

That to me is like complaining aboput and  leaving an abusing husband to move in with another abusive partner!

Anyone want to answer that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 28, 2019, 07:46:47 PM

There now that wasn't too difficult was it?  Thank you for correcting my typos. I have a valid reason. I won't share.
I never get rattled- put downs don't affect me and your opinion even less!

Thirdly where do get the absurd idea that England would close their roads, sea and air space to their nearest neighbour?

Has this been discussed behind my back?  Do you have evidence to say this could not happen- but just a reminder   France is also a near neighbour of England! oops

you do seem to regard the concept of Scotland being an independent country as some kind of declaration of war against England and the English.How absurd!

Why the seperation in a hurry after being told no to independence- there is a Section of the Scottish community who hate the english- deny if you like- it is true.

Scotland has certainly voted to remain in the EU.

Well that vote must have not reached me becaus I have never seen a voting paper asking for Scotland to stay within the EU.

But ofcourse you are going by SNP rhetoric about the majority of a minority didn't vote to leave. Tsk tsk.

 I do not have  negative view or Europe at all I can't imagine where you got that from. I am a  realist and I like to know what is going on- the truth being hidden is not my idea of democracy.

So anyhoo, you never did answer my question- why leave England to be independent to not be independent in the EU?

Scotland is not a rich country check our debts...

That to me is like complaining aboput and  leaving an abusing husband to move in with another abusive partner!

Anyone want to answer that?

Hopefully someone will.
Don't worry overmuch about it all.
If independence does happen I'm sure it will all be sorted much like all will be sorted when we leave the EU.
Hopefully all the EU countries will still allow us Brits to use their roads, sea and air space. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 28, 2019, 10:28:53 PM
Back to Brexit!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2019, 08:44:25 AM
Back to Brexit!

Well, the UK Brexit party triumphed and is now the secnd largest party in the European Parliament. It seems to me that their aim of leaving the EU without a deal is the only way the referendum result can be honoured.

It seems John Bercow is determined to help Parliament to prevent that, however. Parliament may be able to prevent it, but it has no alternative to offer. So come October 31st we will be no further forward.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 09:41:21 AM
Well, the UK Brexit party triumphed and is now the secnd largest party in the European Parliament. It seems to me that their aim of leaving the EU without a deal is the only way the referendum result can be honoured.

It seems John Bercow is determined to help Parliament to prevent that, however. Parliament may be able to prevent it, but it has no alternative to offer. So come October 31st we will be no further forward.
The problem is that this " leaving the EU without a deal is the only way the referendum result can be honoured" does not equal the wishes of the majority of the electorate.  So we now have to do what basically 35% of the country wants.   If this is democracy then I'm a banana. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2019, 11:58:24 AM
The problem is that this " leaving the EU without a deal is the only way the referendum result can be honoured" does not equal the wishes of the majority of the electorate.  So we now have to do what basically 35% of the counTtry wants.   If this is democracy then I'm a banana.

'Democracy' in the UK is what the rules say it is, not what you think it is. Elections which meet the rules deliver a result and that result is therefore democratic. Whatever the election us aboub, people expect the winners to get what they voted for and losers have to accept that they won't get what they voted for.

In the case of Brexit the losers are refusing to accept that they lost. They are rejecting the results of a democratic election.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 12:57:38 PM
'Democracy' in the UK is what the rules say it is, not what you think it is. Elections which meet the rules deliver a result and that result is therefore democratic. Whatever the election us aboub, people expect the winners to get what they voted for and losers have to accept that they won't get what they voted for.

In the case of Brexit the losers are refusing to accept that they lost. They are rejecting the results of a democratic election.
So the people of Britain have voted to leave the EU on WTO rules have they? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 01:07:35 PM
Oh dear, what a shame:

Boris Johnson to face court over alleged EU referendum misconduct
The PM contender will face allegations he lied before the EU referendum over how much money the UK sent to the EU each week.
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-to-face-court-over-alleged-eu-referendum-misconduct-11730747?fbclid=IwAR1WzV2tOvJnPfHj6C263poyGsWovZxzc_s1mKwk1guQxPgzGbLHMAAIVVU
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2019, 01:20:48 PM
So the people of Britain have voted to leave the EU on WTO rules have they?

They voted to leave the EU. The UK already operates under WTO rules as it has been a member since 1995. Those rules govern the 43% of our exports and 34% of our imports which aren't EU related.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 03:42:28 PM
They voted to leave the EU. The UK already operates under WTO rules as it has been a member since 1995. Those rules govern the 43% of our exports and 34% of our imports which aren't EU related.
Do we already trade with the EU on WTO rules because that was obviously what I was referring to!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 04:08:01 PM
They voted to leave the EU. The UK already operates under WTO rules as it has been a member since 1995. Those rules govern the 43% of our exports and 34% of our imports which aren't EU related.
I suggest you read this.  It's from a Leave website so it must be right!
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2019, 05:42:50 PM
Do we already trade with the EU on WTO rules because that was obviously what I was referring to!

If that's what you meant then
a) why don't you know and
b) why are you asking me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 29, 2019, 05:57:56 PM
I suggest you read this.  It's from a Leave website so it must be right!
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

They are just another group advocating their own version of 'Leave'. What makes you think they must be right?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 08:21:06 PM
If that's what you meant then
a) why don't you know and
b) why are you asking me.

I asked
So the people of Britain have voted to leave the EU on WTO rules have they?
To which the answer is clearly NO, yet this is what you appear to believe must happen to fulfil the will of the people - only it isn’t the will of the people.   (&^&
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 29, 2019, 08:21:54 PM
They are just another group advocating their own version of 'Leave'. What makes you think they must be right?
Did you actually read the article?  Perhaps you could tell us why they are wrong.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 06:17:08 AM
Did you actually read the article?  Perhaps you could tell us why they are wrong.

Do they want to cut all ties with the EU? That's what people voted for.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 30, 2019, 07:21:47 AM
Do they want to cut all ties with the EU? That's what people voted for.
Who is “they”?  The people certainly did not vote to cut all ties with the EU,  what on earth do you mean?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2019, 07:25:12 AM
I suggest you read this.  It's from a Leave website so it must be right!
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128

That must be one of the few times (first?) I've ever read / heard Leave HQ state anything accurate. It is, however, over two years' old.

If they were aware of the facts then, how can they unknow them now?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2019, 07:35:42 AM
Something I wasn't aware of until relatively recently via trade experts: I think there's a bit of semantic confusion between WTO rules (the rules that all members must adhere to) and terms (the bare-bones skeleton that members attempt to improve on).

I.e., all members are expected to adhere to the rules, but none (or very few) trade solely on WTO terms.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2019, 07:39:29 AM
From Switzerland, the land of referendums, par excellence:

Court overturns referendum as voters were poorly informed ... in Switzerland

Incomplete detail and lack of transparency invalidated vote on tax laws, says supreme court

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/11/switzerland-court-overturns-referendum-as-voters-were-poorly-informed
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 30, 2019, 08:12:08 AM
This sums things up perfectly IMO

Tory members are hijacking democracy
Jenni RussellMay 30 2019, 12:01am,
A tiny and unrepresentative group of voters should not be allowed to select a prime minister


Few sentences have so infuriated me recently as Theresa Villiers’ concluding words on Radio 4’s The World at One on Tuesday. Asked who she would be backing in the Tory leadership election, the former Northern Ireland secretary refused to commit, adding in a reverential tone: “It is a huge decision to be part of picking the next prime minister of our country”.

Yes. Indeed it is. Especially when that prime minister is about to decide the most crucial issue facing the country since 1940. And yet 99.66 per cent of the electorate are denied a vote. At its heart the whole Brexit question has been about people feeling powerless and wanting more of a voice in the critical issues deciding their lives. Just as that process reaches its peak, the vast majority of us have simply been cut out.

The Tory candidates only have one electorate to win over; the completely unrepresentative sect that is today’s Conservative Party. The rest of us have been reduced to impotent spectators. We are witnessing the most staggeringly undemocratic political takeover of my lifetime.

For those arguing that this choice is no different from the earlier replacements of sitting prime ministers by their parties: it is. When Callaghan replaced Wilson, Major took over from Thatcher and Brown from Blair, those were all changes of personnel rather than policy. None of them proposed dramatically different policies from their predecessors, let alone pursued a momentous decision which would reverberate for decades and which they were too frightened to put to the public for ratification.

It is starkly different now. There is no majority in the country for a no-deal Brexit, and no mandate for it from either a referendum or election. Theresa May was never prepared to pursue it, despite her destructive reiteration of “no deal is better than a bad deal”. Yet that is what is being entertained by the leading Tory contenders, such as Boris Johnson and Dominic Raab.

If their unicorn promises of a fresh deal fail, as they will, they say they are willing to let Britain crash out of the EU at the end of October, breaking our financial commitments and wreaking extraordinary damage on jobs, trade, investment and international credibility. They can ignore the electorate because the only one that counts in the immediate future is the tiny radicalised minority within their party.

We are allowing 160,000 people who in no way reflect the country’s wishes to choose a prime minister who bows to their own extreme views. It is impossible to know exactly who those voters are, since the party guards that information jealously and refuses to release it. We know more about the makeup of the Chinese Politburo than we do of these powerbrokers.

What we do know, from research by the Economic and Social Research Council, is how unlike most voters they are in their views, age, sex and location. Three quarters are men, unlike even Tory voters as a whole, who split 50:50; 44 per cent are over 65, compared with 18 per cent of all voters; almost 60 per cent live in the south and east.

Critically they are complete outliers in their backing for no-deal. Only 35 per cent of voters in last week’s European elections backed parties explicitly pursuing no-deal. Yet almost two thirds of Tory members are thought to prefer no-deal to the withdrawal agreement. That’s why in this election the successful contestants are being driven to a political extreme. The one who opposes it on principle, Rory Stewart, knows he is running against the Tory tide.

No-deal would be a disaster. It does not mean an end to the Brexit dispute and the start of a proud independent existence, as supporters claim. It means instant turmoil and a sudden catastrophic end to the invisible arrangements that underpin our lives, as ports are blocked because free movement of goods stops, medicines run short, supermarket shelves empty of fresh goods, and the legal basis for almost two thirds of our trade collapses.

It would have us begging Brussels to agree new arrangements as businesses folded. The EU would hold all the power, and since we would have reneged on everything the UK had ever promised or negotiated, we’d have killed off every remnant of trust and goodwill.

Johnson, Raab, Esther McVey and the rest know voters don’t want this, but to triumph as PM they must ignore that fact. They are pushing the question of party electability to the back of their minds; that’s a problem far in the future. They are fighting only to maximise their individual chances of power now.

When Jeremy Hunt warned urgently this week that no-deal would be “electoral suicide” he was telling the truth. It was reported as a gaffe, because coming from a leadership contender, it is. He immediately lost some support among MPs for daring to say so. Only lies and liars, it appears, are going to triumph in this contest now.

The public are trapped by this horror show, left only with the hope that parliament and its speaker can do the job of representing the nation and find a way to block the possible imposition of a catastrophic departure. Every tool they can use to redress this undemocratic coup should be seized. But in future we the voters must demand a change in parliament’s laws, requiring that a replacement prime minister hold a general election within three months. That would force all leadership candidates to appeal to the country too. Our democracy is being hijacked. Never again.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 30, 2019, 10:23:01 AM
Who is “they”?  The people certainly did not vote to cut all ties with the EU,  what on earth do you mean?

'They' are the commentators and bloggers behind that website. Like a lot of others you seem to have a problem understanding what 'leave' means. Well 17.4 million people understood it, and 16.1 million people understood what 'remain' meant.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2019, 10:54:22 AM
Not sure how people could have known. Who was openly advocating crashing out without a deal in the lead-up to the referendum?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 30, 2019, 10:57:49 AM
From Switzerland, the land of referendums, par excellence:

Court overturns referendum as voters were poorly informed ... in Switzerland

Incomplete detail and lack of transparency invalidated vote on tax laws, says supreme court

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/11/switzerland-court-overturns-referendum-as-voters-were-poorly-informed


So what did the voters do? change their vote?

It is sheer manipulation of facts that make the remoaners claim people who voted to leave the EU were persuaded by BOJO and his NHS  fantasy.

They seem to forget those who voted to get out probably never voted to get in- in the first place! Should we then go back in time and reverse THAT  fiasco! Claim we were mislead by greedy sleazy politicians and EU elite who stood to benefit the most financially? Taxed us to the hilt with excruciating 20%VAT on almost everything? 

Just to add insult to remoaners injury- it  was Phony Tony Bliar who became prime minister with only a minority of the population actually voting and... lucky him he got a majority of the minority.  now he just doesn't like em maffs fings dont he, cuz it dunt suit ...


Oh dear, what a shame:

Boris Johnson to face court over alleged EU referendum misconduct
The PM contender will face allegations he lied before the EU referendum over how much money the UK sent to the EU each week.
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnson-to-face-court-over-alleged-eu-referendum-misconduct-11730747?fbclid=IwAR1WzV2tOvJnPfHj6C263poyGsWovZxzc_s1mKwk1guQxPgzGbLHMAAIVVU




A private proscecution  tsk.  now back to remoaners greatest asset- phony Tony- Weapons of mass distruction lets go kill us some iraqi kids...No proscecution! Oh Dear.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 30, 2019, 11:10:44 AM
Hopefully someone will.
Don't worry overmuch about it all.
If independence does happen I'm sure it will all be sorted much like all will be sorted when we leave the EU.
Hopefully all the EU countries will still allow us Brits to use their roads, sea and air space. @)(++(*

Hopefully someone will.

Yes because crossing fingers makes things happen

Don't worry overmuch about it all.

I have nothing to worry about- I enjoy my life!

If independence does happen I'm sure it will all be sorted much like all will be sorted when we leave the EU.

Why keep it a secret why not tell us the truth about the real disadvantages and benefits of leaving UK and joining EU?  I am sure you can answer that question no problem.

Hopefully all the EU countries will still allow us Brits to use their roads, sea and air space. @)(++(*

There you go with that hope thing again. Crossing fingers -Not a great way to make descisions- I was talking about ENGLAND closing  its borders.

Still laughing at that prospect? ^*&&

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2019, 04:24:48 PM
Not sure that Trump announcing his respect for Farage and BoJo is necessarily a badge of honour...
https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trump-could-meet-good-guys-nigel-farage-and-boris-johnson-during-uk-trip-11731717
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 30, 2019, 07:12:43 PM
'They' are the commentators and bloggers behind that website. Like a lot of others you seem to have a problem understanding what 'leave' means. Well 17.4 million people understood it, and 16.1 million people understood what 'remain' meant.
So according to you 17.4 million people wanted to cut ALL ties with thr EU?  What rot.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 30, 2019, 07:13:09 PM
Not sure how people could have known. Who was openly advocating crashing out without a deal in the lead-up to the referendum?
No one.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2019, 07:43:59 PM
No one.

I don't remember anyone, either.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2019, 07:49:02 PM
I thought this was someone from a comedy parody show, but it's not.

Anne Widdecombe.

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1132895182247084037

Don't know quite what to say....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 30, 2019, 08:16:57 PM
I thought this was someone from a comedy parody show, but it's not.

Anne Widdecombe.

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1132895182247084037

Don't know quite what to say....
Gerrifying.

Haha, laughing at my own typo there!  A new word for a terrifying geriatric.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on May 30, 2019, 08:46:12 PM
LOL I'd find her funny if she were just someone you bumped into once in a while on a bus, or while walking the dogs, but she's now an MEP... 0_0
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 30, 2019, 11:26:26 PM
LOL I'd find her funny if she were just someone you bumped into once in a while on a bus, or while walking the dogs, but she's now an MEP... 0_0

Better or worse than the kinnock family? do we ever hear anything from them after all they have supped from the  EU gravy train a long ,long time.

In fact does anyone ever hear from their MEPs apart from Nigel F?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 31, 2019, 06:49:39 AM

Save
The Liberal Democrats have surged into first place ahead of the Conservatives, Labour and the Brexit Party, a poll has revealed.

The pro-Remain party topped the Times/YouGov survey with 24 per cent, the first time it has been in the lead since 2010 under Sir Nick Clegg’s leadership.

Support for the Brexit Party, which came first in the European parliament elections on 31.6 per cent, dropped back. Twenty-two per cent of voters would back the party if a general election were held now, the poll found. The Tories and Labour were tied on 19 per cent, with the Greens on 8 per cent.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 31, 2019, 06:50:54 AM
Better or worse than the kinnock family? do we ever hear anything from them after all they have supped from the  EU gravy train a long ,long time.

In fact does anyone ever hear from their MEPs apart from Nigel F?
I watched Kinnock The Younger on some programme the other night and he came across very well.  Not remotely swivel-eyed and made a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 31, 2019, 06:35:56 PM
Save
The Liberal Democrats have surged into first place ahead of the Conservatives, Labour and the Brexit Party, a poll has revealed.

The pro-Remain party topped the Times/YouGov survey with 24 per cent, the first time it has been in the lead since 2010 under Sir Nick Clegg’s leadership.

Support for the Brexit Party, which came first in the European parliament elections on 31.6 per cent, dropped back. Twenty-two per cent of voters would back the party if a general election were held now, the poll found. The Tories and Labour were tied on 19 per cent, with the Greens on 8 per cent.

A poll... heehee A poll. some people said...

Unless we get the integrity of the stats we canot be expected to take themn seriously.

OK 1. how many were polled- how many replied?
      2. where and when was this poll  arranged and who paid for it?

Ta.


Kinnock the younger on a program just the other night- that's it?  lol nothing at all to do with the fact he will lose out when we leave -no self intrest there at all. 

 So apart from that one night- no one has heard about the grerat things the Kinnocks have achieved on behalf of the hard pressed tax payers within the EU community...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 31, 2019, 06:43:47 PM
A poll... heehee A poll. some people said...

Unless we get the integrity of the stats we canot be expected to take themn seriously.

OK 1. how many were polled- how many replied?
      2. where and when was this poll  arranged and who paid for it?

Ta.


Kinnock the younger on a program just the other night- that's it?  lol nothing at all to do with the fact he will lose out when we leave -no self intrest there at all. 

 So apart from that one night- no one has heard about the grerat things the Kinnocks have achieved on behalf of the hard pressed tax payers within the EU community...

Fill your boots here https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/05/30/lib-dems-lead-polls-they-start-become-party-48?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=VI_29_May_2019

I know who I’d rather have at my dinner table Stephen Kinnock over Ann Widdicombe any day.  I’d rather have an army of Kinnocks presiding over me than Farage, Rees-Mogg, McVey and Ann Widdicombe. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on May 31, 2019, 07:28:34 PM
Hopefully someone will.
There's something about your posts which remind me of being on playground duty.
Don't worry overmuch about it all.
If independence does happen I'm sure it will all be sorted much like all will be sorted when we leave the EU.
Hopefully all the EU countries will still allow us Brits to use their roads, sea and air space. @)(++(*

Only 15% of the Scottish electorate voted for the SNP in the EU elections. Hardly a resounding endorsement of anything Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP promote. IMO the SNP have had their day and are now out of touch with the majority of Scots who can't even be bothered to vote for them anymore.

Now, back to BREXIT which I sincerely hope will happen at Halloween despite that little shit Bercow interfering again.

PS. I make no apologies for calling Bercow a little shit because imo he is just that!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on May 31, 2019, 08:21:16 PM
Fill your boots here https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/05/30/lib-dems-lead-polls-they-start-become-party-48?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=VI_29_May_2019

I know who I’d rather have at my dinner table Stephen Kinnock over Ann Widdicombe any day.  I’d rather have an army of Kinnocks presiding over me than Farage, Rees-Mogg, McVey and Ann Widdicombe.

Just as I thought healine grabber.
The gaurdian poll says .. and thta one says  and this one says.

48%  in a EU vote by some people. has anyone dared to ask WHY they voted the way they did. The populace of the UK does a lot of Tactical Voting. So we are quite, quite sure the Russians had NOTHING to do with this? hahahahahahaha

Polls say what you want them to say..
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on May 31, 2019, 08:55:17 PM
As predicted, Tory MP's heading off to the four corners of the world to do trade deals...Wonderful stuff!!

Well played Theresa   8@??)(   Onwards and upwards!!

58

First post on this thread.
How times have changed!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on May 31, 2019, 11:22:18 PM
Fill your boots here https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/05/30/lib-dems-lead-polls-they-start-become-party-48?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=VI_29_May_2019

I know who I’d rather have at my dinner table Stephen Kinnock over Ann Widdicombe any day.  I’d rather have an army of Kinnocks presiding over me than Farage, Rees-Mogg, McVey and Ann Widdicombe.

I've never forgotten how embarrased I felt for Neil Kinnock in the 1980's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8ktNsie0I


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on May 31, 2019, 11:29:10 PM
I've never forgotten how embarrased I felt for Neil Kinnock in the 1980's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8ktNsie0I
That’s a lot less cringey than that Ann Widdecombe video posted by Carana.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 02, 2019, 02:42:44 PM
I've never forgotten how embarrased I felt for Neil Kinnock in the 1980's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh8ktNsie0I


Or old Michael Foot  eeks.

Anne Does annoy me I must confess but judging her by her looks is just, OMG so pathetic.

The interviewer didn't seem to understand what Anne Was saying. No deal is now on the cards -unless the EU want to re-negotiate if the EU say non then it is hard Brexit!.

There now that wasn't difficult was it...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 02, 2019, 06:08:51 PM

Or old Michael Foot  eeks.

Anne Does annoy me I must confess but judging her by her looks is just, OMG so pathetic.

The interviewer didn't seem to understand what Anne Was saying. No deal is now on the cards -unless the EU want to re-negotiate if the EU say non then it is hard Brexit!.

There now that wasn't difficult was it...
On what criteria were you judging Michael Foot?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on June 03, 2019, 03:17:16 PM

Or old Michael Foot  eeks.

Anne Does annoy me I must confess but judging her by her looks is just, OMG so pathetic.

The interviewer didn't seem to understand what Anne Was saying. No deal is now on the cards -unless the EU want to re-negotiate if the EU say non then it is hard Brexit!.

There now that wasn't difficult was it...

She achieved her goal, which is more than a certain Mr Clarence Mitchell did.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 03, 2019, 05:01:03 PM
She achieved her goal, which is more than a certain Mr Clarence Mitchell did.
I reckon a donkey could have stood for the Brexit Party and been elected an MEP in some parts of the country
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 03, 2019, 05:46:30 PM
I reckon a donkey could have stood for the Brexit Party and been elected an MEL in some parts of the country

Talking of donkeys...

Ouch. :)

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1135436716683272192

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 03, 2019, 06:28:31 PM
Talking of donkeys...

Ouch. :)

https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1135436716683272192
Haha, brilliant!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on June 03, 2019, 08:01:03 PM
I reckon a donkey could have stood for the Brexit Party and been elected an MEP in some parts of the country

Widdecombe had enough sense not to stand for the Conservatives, despite being a Conservative MP for 23 years. 

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 03, 2019, 08:14:10 PM
Hope you Brexit lovers are watching the programme on chicken production in the US which is on right now.  If you weren’t a vegetarian pre-Brexit I’d strongly recommend it post-Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 03, 2019, 08:17:03 PM
Widdecombe had enough sense not to stand for the Conservatives, despite being a Conservative MP for 23 years.
She’s just canny enough to suss which way the wind is blowing, she’s a deeply unpleasant individual IMO and in the party that best suits her ethos and beliefs imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on June 03, 2019, 09:18:55 PM
Hope you Brexit lovers are watching the programme on chicken production in the US which is on right now.  If you weren’t a vegetarian pre-Brexit I’d strongly recommend it post-Brexit.

I'm not vegetarian.
But will never eat chicken again if this happens.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on June 03, 2019, 11:03:26 PM
Hope you Brexit lovers are watching the programme on chicken production in the US which is on right now.  If you weren’t a vegetarian pre-Brexit I’d strongly recommend it post-Brexit.

I stopped eating mass produced chicken in the 1970's when it suddenly began to have a strange fishy taste. I buy only accredited free range organic food, preferably Brirish.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 03, 2019, 11:35:25 PM
I stopped eating mass produced chicken in the 1970's when it suddenly began to have a strange fishy taste. I buy only accredited free range organic food, preferably Brirish.
When we strike a free trade deal with the US, most British chicken farmers will be put out of business. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 04, 2019, 07:17:44 PM
The Brexit Party manifesto is born for anyone interested.

https://brexitparty.org.uk/manifesto/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 04, 2019, 08:02:54 PM
The Brexit Party manifesto is born for anyone interested.

https://brexitparty.org.uk/manifesto/
I love the the typo in the Education section  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 04, 2019, 08:12:18 PM
She achieved her goal, which is more than a certain Mr Clarence Mitchell did.

What goal?  Do you mean Strictly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKIY5VnsYAM

 8)-)))
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Holly Goodhead on June 04, 2019, 08:15:41 PM
What goal?  Do you mean Strictly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKIY5VnsYAM

 8)-)))

Say what you like about her at least she's a good sport!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 04, 2019, 08:54:36 PM
Seen elsewhere

How did we move from the NHS getting 350million to the NHS being "on the table" as part of a trade agreement.
How?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 04, 2019, 10:05:47 PM
Seen elsewhere

How did we move from the NHS getting 350million to the NHS being "on the table" as part of a trade agreement.
How?

By voting leave without the foggiest idea of what it might entail?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2019, 07:23:41 AM
Has anyone worked out why Farage needed a £13,000-a-month 3-bedroom Chelsea home, and a chauffeur-come-bodyguard Land Rover Discovery - to the tune of £450,000 - to help him prepare to "leave politics and start a new life in the US"?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7037651/Arron-Banks-spent-450k-Nigel-Farage-including-4-4m-home-Land-Rover-utility-bills.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48516348
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 05, 2019, 07:55:32 AM
The Brexit Party manifesto is born for anyone interested.

https://brexitparty.org.uk/manifesto/
All that’s missing is a pledge to bring back hanging, the Black & White Minstrel Show and the British Empire and it would sum up Brexit perfectly (IMO).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2019, 07:59:38 AM
Farage: "I think we're going to have to think about health care very, very differently. And I think we're going to have to move to an insurance-based system of health care. Frankly, I would feel more comfortable that my money would return value if I was able to do that through the market place of an insurance company, than just trustingly giving a £100 million a year to central government and expecting them to organise the health service from cradle to grave for us."

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1135903146071470080

Remind me again which of his benefactor's main lines of business is insurance?

Ah...     

Mr Banks has denied any wrongdoing and insisted the £8m he loaned to Leave.EU was legitimate and came from his UK insurance businesses.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46128370

Total coincidence, of course.

And that doesn't yet touch on the prospect of having US companies potentially running UK hospitals, nor having the cap on pharmaceutical prices lifted.

A few questions:

A. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this?
B. Cui bono?
C. Is this what those who voted Brexit wanted?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 05, 2019, 08:05:50 AM
Farage: "I think we're going to have to think about health care very, very differently. And I think we're going to have to move to an insurance-based system of health care. Frankly, I would feel more comfortable that my money would return value if I was able to do that through the market place of an insurance company, than just trustingly giving a £100 million a year to central government and expecting them to organise the health service from cradle to grave for us."

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1135903146071470080

Remind me again which of his benefactor's main lines of business is insurance?

Ah...     

Mr Banks has denied any wrongdoing and insisted the £8m he loaned to Leave.EU was legitimate and came from his UK insurance businesses.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46128370

Total coincidence, of course.

And that doesn't yet touch on the prospect of having US companies potentially running UK hospitals, nor having the cap on pharmaceutical prices lifted.

A few questions:

A. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this?
B. Cui bono?
C. Is this what those who voted Brexit wanted?
Ths issue may be the undoing of the Brexit Party.  If only they’d lied and vowed to pump billions more into the NHS they’d have had it sewn up.  As it is, this issue will be the Achilles heel that other parties will stick their needles into, and rightly so.  The people do not want their NHS privatised, full stop.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2019, 08:43:28 AM
All that’s missing is a pledge to bring back hanging, the Black & White Minstrel Show and the British Empire and it would sum up Brexit perfectly (IMO).

I think quite a few people were genuinely taken in by:

- the £350m for the NHS (the net UK contribution was half that);

- the daunting thought of having to cope with a potential 70 million+ Turks about to be landing on UK's doorstep as a new member country (it never was), all scrounging while people were still reeling from austerity;

- the misconception that "Brussels" was some far-away foreign dictatorship imposing ridiculous laws (without realising just how many UK MEPs (third ex-aequo largest) were involved in shaping those laws, nor the fact that the UK contingent voted in favour of 95% of them);

- the fact that fishing quotas (another emotive issue) are allocated to member states, who then decided how to allocate them domestically;

- the insidious subliminal influence of much of the tabloid press;

- ...

I don't know anyone who believes that the EU is perfect (myself included). On the other hand, I still haven't seen a solution on the table that would offer a better deal, nor one in which the UK would hold "all the cards".

The slogans of the need to "fight" to "regain" "sovereignty", "freedom", "liberty", etc., may sound impressive, but  as Farage himself admitted - "Brexit was never going to solve any of the UK's domestic problems".

https://twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1131177730672873478
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2019, 08:59:10 AM
Ths issue may be the undoing of the Brexit Party.  If only they’d lied and vowed to pump billions more into the NHS they’d have had it sewn up.  As it is, this issue will be the Achilles heel that other parties will stick their needles into, and rightly so.  The people do not want their NHS privatised, full stop.

I think that there are several aspects to it:

a. For many, it has emotive "national treasure" status, however much people grumble about it;

b. Some Brexit voters genuinely believed that the (false) assertion that £350m-a-week saved from EU contributions would go into the NHS coffers to improve services;

c. Was an insurance-based scheme, a de-cap on the price of pharmaceuticals, and the prospect of health care services run by overseas companies  ever presented as a viable and value-based alternative prior to the referendum?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2019, 09:07:20 AM
How are the relatively poor with long-term illnesses, disabilities or the elderly going to finance their care?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2019, 09:23:23 AM
The Conservatives face "potential extinction" if they do not get Brexit done, Boris Johnson has warned.

The former foreign secretary told a leadership hustings the party will "not be forgiven" if it does not take the UK out of the EU by 31 October as planned.

He said he was best placed to beat Labour and "put Nigel Farage back in his box"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48521389

Sounds like the political equivalent of a  "plea deal" to me... :)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 05, 2019, 10:33:29 AM
How's the "repeal and replace" of Obamacare coming along?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 05, 2019, 02:37:54 PM
The Conservatives face "potential extinction" if they do not get Brexit done, Boris Johnson has warned.

The former foreign secretary told a leadership hustings the party will "not be forgiven" if it does not take the UK out of the EU by 31 October as planned.

He said he was best placed to beat Labour and "put Nigel Farage back in his box"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48521389

Sounds like the political equivalent of a  "plea deal" to me... :)
What is Boris’ plan for Brexit I wonder?  Why haven’t we heard what he plans to do when he becomes PM?  Is it a secret?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 07:06:20 AM
Well done to the people of Peterborough who voted to leave but who rejected the Brexit Party. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on June 07, 2019, 08:41:11 AM
Well done to the people of Peterborough who voted to leave but who rejected the Brexit Party.

Only just! Labour got only 683 votes more than the Brexit candidate. The Tories came third. How did the Lib Dems do?

I see Change UK is dying almost as soon as it was formed. Whatever people think about the Brexit Party they have made unprecedented strides in a very short space of time.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2019, 01:19:42 PM
This seems to be one of the pro-Brexit ads to support the NHS.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1136898838134792193

How many people voted thinking that that ad represented reality?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 06:00:28 PM
Only just! Labour got only 683 votes more than the Brexit candidate. The Tories came third. How did the Lib Dems do?

I see Change UK is dying almost as soon as it was formed. Whatever people think about the Brexit Party they have made unprecedented strides in a very short space of time.
Brexit should have walked it, in a constituency where 61% voted leave, the previous Labour incumbent was bent and the current candidate an anti-semite.  The people do not want a no deal Brexit.  The margin of the win is unimportant I thought, or does that only apply to the referendum result?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 07, 2019, 06:01:35 PM
This seems to be one of the pro-Brexit ads to support the NHS.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1136898838134792193

How many people voted thinking that that ad represented reality?
That link shows a toddler escaping from its crib - lol.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2019, 09:50:59 PM
LOL Maybe I copied the wrong link.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 07, 2019, 09:57:23 PM
Nope, not this one either. :)

https://twitter.com/theJeremyVine/status/1134509543612911617
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 01:44:32 PM
This seems to be one of the pro-Brexit ads to support the NHS.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1136898838134792193

How many people voted thinking that that ad represented reality?

this wasn't a one pony race as you seem to think. It may or may not have had an impact as one of many reasons they had for voting to leave.

The NHS was on the table at Brussels long before Brexit. The USA was trying to get  into that market and also the NHS as the EU widened the British public were asked to pay for 'free treatment' of many more millions than the NHS could cope with- you do the math.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 10, 2019, 02:18:26 PM
this wasn't a one pony race as you seem to think. It may or may not have had an impact as one of many reasons they had for voting to leave.

The NHS was on the table at Brussels long before Brexit. The USA was trying to get  into that market and also the NHS as the EU widened the British public were asked to pay for 'free treatment' of many more millions than the NHS could cope with- you do the math.

Who asked the NHS to pay for "many more millions" ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 10, 2019, 09:18:20 PM
Who asked the NHS to pay for "many more millions" ?

Yes, exactly who did ask the UK tax payer if they wanted to have foreigners walk in and get treatment and walk back out. Without paying anything? 

You are so wrapped up in your own agenda you are taking your eye off the ball.  The more countries who join are entitled to freedom of movement and to the same benefits as citizens in this country. This equates to many more millions of people. yes? no?

The NHS is already private. it sneaked in via  ' partnership agreements'. They out-source out work at a cheaper rate, where is this cheaper rate ? NOT the UK or France Or Germany.  Oh us lucky people.

Perhaps it was the long waiting lists getting longer and the schools becoming over crowded with teachers dealing with desperate social issues and as much as 13 different languages in one class that parents became concerned about quality.

The EU should have provided the infrastructure for such influxes before gobbing off about freedom of movement. the dire housing situation was and remains another contentious issue.



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: ScottMorgan on June 19, 2019, 10:08:50 PM
Hope you Brexit lovers are watching these otc phentermine results https://thefecaltransplantfoundation.org/phentermine-over-the-counter/ (https://thefecaltransplantfoundation.org/phentermine-over-the-counter/) programme on chicken production in the US which is on right now.  If you weren’t a vegetarian pre-Brexit I’d strongly recommend it post-Brexit.

Brexit process of getting this delivered has well and truly begun ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Parky41 on June 19, 2019, 10:14:03 PM
Brexit process of getting this delivered has well and truly begun ?

'This chicken is brexit friendly' Can see the label nooooooo !
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 20, 2019, 06:35:08 AM
Yes, exactly who did ask the UK tax payer if they wanted to have foreigners walk in and get treatment and walk back out. Without paying anything? 

You are so wrapped up in your own agenda you are taking your eye off the ball.  The more countries who join are entitled to freedom of movement and to the same benefits as citizens in this country. This equates to many more millions of people. yes? no?

The NHS is already private. it sneaked in via  ' partnership agreements'. They out-source out work at a cheaper rate, where is this cheaper rate ? NOT the UK or France Or Germany.  Oh us lucky people.

Perhaps it was the long waiting lists getting longer and the schools becoming over crowded with teachers dealing with desperate social issues and as much as 13 different languages in one class that parents became concerned about quality.

The EU should have provided the infrastructure for such influxes before gobbing off about freedom of movement. the dire housing situation was and remains another contentious issue.

Who do you mean by "foreigners"?

EU / EEA / EFTA countries reimburse the host country for medical costs.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7436.msg513424#msg513424
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 22, 2019, 11:35:22 AM
Brexit process of getting this delivered has well and truly begun ?

Are you scared and absolutly terrified? what about the beef injected with hormones?

 Now here is a wee trick I learned. Read the lable and make a choice. It is dead easy.

I am surprised and quite shocked the egan/vegitarian warriers and  brexit bashers didn't tell you this. Oh I am sure they have their reasons. ^*&&

  8)--))
PS welcome to the forum Scott
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 22, 2019, 11:47:59 AM
Who do you mean by "foreigners"?

EU / EEA / EFTA countries reimburse the host country for medical costs.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=7436.msg513424#msg513424

I wouod love some evidence of this wonderful guesture- I know we pay for people to go abraod for treatments to get waiting lists down- but we have to ask why are the waiting lists growing. Do an FOI and find out.

NHS is free at the point of contact, being free means they do not pay as we must have the same treatments as we live in each country. How many other EU/ EEA/ AND EFTA countries have child benefit/ housing benefit etc.NOT MANY, but I am sure you will provide the stats.

As for the tens of thousands of pounds paid out to suffering individuals who land in the EU and make their way to the Uk either by being dumped on us by some agreement  or invading our country and landing in prison for commiting  various crimes(they don't have passports and they just want to work and be legit..haha ok.) it should please you to know that prisoners get priority treatment over UK citizens.  But don't let those figures scare you- in the millions each year!  ^*&&

Why not just tell it like it is- I just do not understand this hiding information from people.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on June 22, 2019, 03:03:28 PM
Boris the girlfrend bullier?  Well well, whatever next. I suppose desoarate times call for desperate measures.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 22, 2019, 05:14:22 PM
Boris the girlfrend bullier?  Well well, whatever next. I suppose desoarate times call for desperate measures.
This won’t affect the Boris Fan Club in the slightest, in fact they will love him all the more for it.   I sincerely hope he is elected PM, not because I think he will be a good one (quite the opposite) but because unless a Leaver owns Brexit we will never hear the end of it when everything goes tits up.  Which it will IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on June 22, 2019, 09:34:50 PM
This won’t affect the Boris Fan Club in the slightest, in fact they will love him all the more for it.   I sincerely hope he is elected PM, not because I think he will be a good one (quite the opposite) but because unless a Leaver owns Brexit we will never hear the end of it when everything goes tits up.  Which it will IMO.

I just wish he could master tucking his shirt in.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 22, 2019, 10:25:48 PM
I just wish he could master tucking his shirt in.
Hi fat gut precludes this from happening satisfactorily.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 23, 2019, 04:21:16 PM
Brexit process of getting this delivered has well and truly begun ?

Welcome to the forum, Scott.

Brexit hasn't even been born yet. Seems to be a somewhat difficult pregnancy.

And no, the oft-touted Article 24 won't cover post-natal intensive care.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 23, 2019, 04:28:01 PM
I wouod love some evidence of this wonderful guesture- I know we pay for people to go abraod for treatments to get waiting lists down- but we have to ask why are the waiting lists growing. Do an FOI and find out.

NHS is free at the point of contact, being free means they do not pay as we must have the same treatments as we live in each country. How many other EU/ EEA/ AND EFTA countries have child benefit/ housing benefit etc.NOT MANY, but I am sure you will provide the stats.

As for the tens of thousands of pounds paid out to suffering individuals who land in the EU and make their way to the Uk either by being dumped on us by some agreement  or invading our country and landing in prison for commiting  various crimes(they don't have passports and they just want to work and be legit..haha ok.) it should please you to know that prisoners get priority treatment over UK citizens.  But don't let those figures scare you- in the millions each year!  ^*&&

Why not just tell it like it is- I just do not understand this hiding information from people.

Why not provide reputable stats or fact-finding sites that back up your assertions yourself?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 24, 2019, 09:03:17 AM
I knew about Farage, but hadn't quite realised how chummy BoJo is with Bannon...


https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1142721905918652416
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 24, 2019, 05:30:35 PM
Hmmm. The "Movement"....

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-47388774/the-movement-steve-bannon-role-in-2019-eu-elections
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2019, 08:25:01 PM
Am I the only one to question why BoJo's supposed quarrel with his girlfriend and his supposed hobby of making model buses might be to cover up  news of Bannon admitting to have edited his resignation speech? Is that the full extent of Bannon pulling JoBo's strings?

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1142721905918652416
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2019, 08:28:35 PM
And as for Corbyn...


https://www.indy100.com/article/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-billboard-led-by-donkeys-campaign-north-islington-8775351
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 28, 2019, 11:52:28 PM
And as for Corbyn...


https://www.indy100.com/article/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-billboard-led-by-donkeys-campaign-north-islington-8775351
The Times is reporting concerns within the Labour Party about Corbyn’s physical and mental health and there is speculation he will step down later his year.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2019, 08:44:03 AM
The Times is reporting concerns within the Labour Party about Corbyn’s physical and mental health and there is speculation he will step down later his year.

Yes, I saw that. Might explain a few things.

Meanwhile, it seems I've missed a few other developments...

 Thu 6 Jun 2019 19.55 BST
Last modified on Thu 6 Jun 2019 21.44 BST

UK official in charge of Brexit border plans resigns

Karen Wheeler’s resignation stokes fears the UK will not be ready for a no-deal Brexit by October
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/06/uk-official-in-charge-of-brexit-border-plans-resigns

followed by...

28th June
Brexit: Civil servant in charge of no-deal planning resigns
https://www.thenational.scot/news/17736512.brexit-civil-servant-in-charge-of-no-deal-planning-resigns/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2019, 09:20:22 AM
Had a look at Wigmore's Twitter feed...


Andy Wigmore Retweeted
Leave.EU
‏Verified account @LeaveEUOfficial
11h11 hours ago

BREAKING | David Gauke survives his confidence vote. Can't win them all!

🌊 The Blue Wave rides on... Plenty of other petitions going in. We're just getting started! @CCHQPress


They seem to be hell-bent on getting any moderate Conservative Brexiters / remainers "deselected".


Andy Wigmore
‏ @andywigmore
15h15 hours ago

Andy Wigmore Retweeted Robert Buckland QC MP

It’s the 17.4 million who voted for brexit that deserve your support, not some 2 referendum Remoaner. You were elected on a brexit manifesto, which clearly means nothing to you. Time to drain the swamp of career professional politicians like @DavidGauke and you @RobertBuckland



Now where have I heard "drain the swamp" before...? Hmm.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2019, 10:15:58 AM
I'm no fan of Corbyn, but does anyone find that the NHS would be improved by the "involvement" of US corporations?


The opposition leader was one of many speakers at the rally to portray the future of the National Health Service, one of the UK’s most popular institutions, as a critical issue in future transatlantic relations at the rally.

Woody Johnson, the US ambassador to the UK, insisted on Sunday that access to the service for US corporations would be “on the table” in talks between the US and UK on a post-Brexit trade deal, comments that Mr Trump echoed at a joint press conference with Mrs May shortly after Mr Corbyn spoke.


https://www.ft.com/content/2d8fc2dc-86aa-11e9-97ea-05ac2431f453
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 29, 2019, 09:01:51 PM
Why not provide reputable stats or fact-finding sites that back up your assertions yourself?


Because I don't need to. I am not hugging the world as a great place - I see it as it is and telll it like it is.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Woody Johnson, the US ambassador to the UK, insisted on Sunday that access to the service for US corporations would be “on the table” in talks between the US and UK on a post-Brexit trade deal, comments that Mr Trump echoed at a joint press conference with Mrs May shortly after Mr Corbyn spoke.


This was on the table back  many years as the EU were mumbling about the NHS.  We were out of sync with the  EU health provisions. everyone was to be the same? all equal?  all rubbish iofcourse.

The biggest heist from the NHS is the data. THAT is the datawarehouse most want their hands on.. which PM will sell out?  The NHS is privitised anyway.  Most 'community services are run by 'charities'. and private companies like Virgin .. oh yes.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 10, 2019, 01:37:51 PM
BBC fact-check on the BoJo-Hunt debate.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48931052
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 10, 2019, 05:26:42 PM
BBC fact-check on the BoJo-Hunt debate.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48931052
What a shit-show that was, pardon me language.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2019, 08:23:24 AM
Keeping an eye on the Kim Darroch saga.

I hadn't realised who originally published them: none other than Isabel Oakeshott.

Richard Tice:


Darroch has finally made the right decision. The Tory Govt look ridiculous for having tried to defend the indefensible. Now it’s time for a pro Brexit businessman to be appointed who can lead a quick US trade deal.
1:06 AM - 10 Jul 2019
https://twitter.com/TiceRichard/status/1148911357787627520



Nigel Farage
‏Verified account @Nigel_Farage
Jul 10

Nigel Farage

The right decision, time put in a non-Remainer who wants a trade deal with America.
https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1148910732744036354


Nigel Farage
‏Verified account @Nigel_Farage

Kim Darroch is totally unsuitable for the job and the sooner he is gone the better.
https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1147793723092344834


Banks:

Arron Banks
‏ @Arron_banks

Arron Banks Retweeted Richard Tice

Thanks for the endorsement, I’ve got a bit on at the moment , I would have thought @LordAshcroft would be ideal given his close relationship with the UK and US government ! @IsabelOakeshott
https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/1148923336044568576

Wigmore:

Andy Wigmore
‏ @andywigmore

Andy Wigmore Retweeted Lord Ashcroft

Very persuasive argument from the great Lord to support @Jeremy_Hunt but we need a brexiteer in charge not another @theresa_may and while I agree on almost everything @LordAshcroft has outlined - the time for a @BorisJohnson and @Nigel_Farage coalition is more appealing

https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/1149274342368468992


Andy Wigmore
‏ @andywigmore
Jul 9

Andy Wigmore Retweeted Channel 4 News

Excellent news - time for @Nigel_Farage 😉

https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/1148668910327214081
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2019, 08:27:29 AM
More importantly, who let them flutter out of a window into Oakeshott's waiting hands?

Leaks happen from time to time, but IMO it was a political coup to get a no-dealer in place. The problem is it undermines the role of the civil service to serve the nation without fear nor favour (whichever government is in place).
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2019, 09:01:53 AM
Re Farage:

Leave.EU
‏Verified account @LeaveEUOfficial

Britain's anti-Brexit ambassador to the US is what Donald Trump would call a "bad hombre". He needs to be banished from Washington and replaced by a favourite of the President.

The Special Relationship is at stake. Send in the great man...
https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1147841952223825920

Slight problem with that.

The role of an ambassador is to represent their own state's interests in the one to which they are posted and that includes informing colleagues / government in their home state of issues considered relevant.

It's not the other way around.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2019, 09:37:06 AM
IMO, Farage seems happy as a back-channel force. He knows he's controversial, admits he doesn't count diplomacy as one of his major skills and IIRC doesn't appear to want the job of ambassador.

I suspect the idea is to bank on a knee-jerk reaction of "anyone has to be better suited than Farage".

At the same time, on another front, Leave.eu is openly helping local groups to get Remain and even moderate Brexiter Conservative MPs deselected. Presumably paving the way for pushing through a no-deal.

Is this what the majority of the 38% of the electorate who voted Leave had in mind?



Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 12, 2019, 08:02:57 PM
Sigh.


BoJo:
https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1149734201991806977

He really could have read the whole page of GATT 24 that the ERG brigade have been banging on about. It really isn't that long.

It's here: https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/region_e/regatt_e.htm#gatt

And no, not paying bills isn't likely to gain the UK any brownie points - with the EU or any other sensible trading partner.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2019, 02:57:17 PM
Ah. I was trying to get to the bottom of the Oakeshott / Tice tabloid rumour.

Seems true by Oakeshott's own admission, although she denies that he had seen the cables and was unaware of the source.

Isabel Oakeshott
‏Verified account @IsabelOakeshott

Isabel Oakeshott Retweeted Otto English

So what? It is not a secret. He had nothing to do with my story; has never seen the cables and doesn’t know the identity of the source. Next?

https://twitter.com/IsabelOakeshott/status/1150185242097065986

Possibly total coincidence, but possibly a viable lead for the Met to follow... 


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 15, 2019, 11:01:56 AM
... meanwhile back at the ranch (EU) we have this from the horses mouth!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1152531/Brexit-News-Party-MEP-Alexandra-Phillips-Brex-Box-update-latest-youtube

quite the eye opener. And to add to the fun. I asked three  remoaners who their MEP was.. sigh... they didn't know!  go on ye Eu u u u u u
 ...and none could tel me who the  unelected, unknown female is who got the top job.. her name is err um  hmm ^*&&

These are your rulers on top of your own government  you elected!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2019, 05:16:49 AM
Ask May - she and the other national heads of government proposed her as a candidate.

That "top job" (there is more than one) is President of the European Commission, which is the executive branch, i.e., similar to the UK's civil service.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 17, 2019, 08:08:16 PM
Ask May - she and the other national heads of government proposed her as a candidate.

That "top job" (there is more than one) is President of the European Commission, which is the executive branch, i.e., similar to the UK's civil service.

Point missed? too much beaurocracy- way too much!

It is NOTHING like the UK civil service,it costs billions more to have these people rule over us.  AND do we really need them to rule over us?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 18, 2019, 07:54:06 AM
Point missed? too much beaurocracy- way too much!

It is NOTHING like the UK civil service,it costs billions more to have these people rule over us.  AND do we really need them to rule over us?

In which ways has the EU "ruled over" one of its largest and most influential members?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 19, 2019, 07:48:05 AM
In which ways has the EU "ruled over" one of its largest and most influential members?
In all these ways, just look how long the list is!
https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 19, 2019, 03:44:13 PM
In all these ways, just look how long the list is!
https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

Yeah, I know. Seems they gave up trying to keep up with the lies back in 2017.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2019, 08:10:36 AM
Well, another three months of entertainment while Boris tries to bulldoze Brexit through.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 25, 2019, 05:22:32 PM
Is this what you wanted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCAjY0U8zLw

NB: A wink to Alice, wherever he is...

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2019, 09:11:45 PM
Is this what you wanted?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCAjY0U8zLw

NB: A wink to Alice, wherever he is...

I'm just fascinated by the behaviour of our politicians at the minute. All of them saying they put the good of the country first when it's clear that they put themselves first imo.

Dear Alice...RIP
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 26, 2019, 11:53:27 AM
Well, another three months of entertainment while Boris tries to bulldoze Brexit through.
you must be pleased as he has promised it will definitely happen deal or no deal, plus we will all have cake to eat. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2019, 06:04:11 PM
you must be pleased as he has promised it will definitely happen deal or no deal, plus we will all have cake to eat. @)(++(*

At least he understands it will damage our democracy if he desn't deliver what the people voted for.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 26, 2019, 09:04:08 PM
At least he understands it will damage our democracy if he desn't deliver what the people voted for.
Yes, far better to damage the country instead of course.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 27, 2019, 09:15:24 AM
The new First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth has solved the backstop isssue: no customs border down the Red Sea. 
https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1154830914716884993

Could someone offer him a, erm, map?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on July 27, 2019, 10:14:53 AM
Yes, far better to damage the country instead of course.

You think ditching democracy isn't damaging? It makes the UK no better than a tin pot dictatorship. I value integrity more than monetary gain.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 27, 2019, 04:30:09 PM
You think ditching democracy isn't damaging? It makes the UK no better than a tin pot dictatorship. I value integrity more than monetary gain.
Who is talking about monetary gain?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 28, 2019, 01:20:27 AM
You think ditching democracy isn't damaging? It makes the UK no better than a tin pot dictatorship. I value integrity more than monetary gain.

A takeover by the ERG, coupled with Farages's new US-based fundraising "World4Brexit" with the ubiquitous Bannon seems a lot more like a tin-pot democcraccy to me... Who voted ffor wheree the UK is now?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on July 28, 2019, 09:29:30 AM
A takeover by the ERG, coupled with Farages's new US-based fundraising "World4Brexit" with the ubiquitous Bannon seems a lot more like a tin-pot democcraccy to me... Who voted ffor wheree the UK is now?

My view is very simple. The people voted to leave the EU. For reasons of their own our politcians have fought tooth abd nail to prevent us leaving.

We now appear to have a government determined to deliver what the people voted for.

How they achieve that is up to them, but if they manage it they have complied with the result of a democratic process, which is what democracy is all about.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 28, 2019, 12:24:23 PM
My view is very simple. The people voted to leave the EU. For reasons of their own our politcians have fought tooth abd nail to prevent us leaving.

We now appear to have a government determined to deliver what the people voted for.

How they achieve that is up to them, but if they manage it they have complied with the result of a democratic process, which is what democracy is all about.

Indeed!  This is why I am not influenced by other peoles take on political issues which are important. Political satire, scandal seeking, name calling,point scoring are all childish pathetic behaviour unwoethy of the hard working tax paying citizens of the UK.

We really do not have a proper democracy- we have sock puppets who pander to the unelected elites agendas.
Oh I hear you cry 'say it aint so'.

Bojo may well be a bafoon, court jester, philanderer, serial adulterer and much more besides. His private life is nothing to to with anyone! However, what he has above the others is:  He fights for the causes with integrity and enthusiasm and he KNOWS the difference between migrants comming to work here legally, and mass unchecked mostly single male  immigration.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 29, 2019, 06:14:56 AM
Indeed!  This is why I am not influenced by other peoles take on political issues which are important. Political satire, scandal seeking, name calling,point scoring are all childish pathetic behaviour unwoethy of the hard working tax paying citizens of the UK.

We really do not have a proper democracy- we have sock puppets who pander to the unelected elites agendas.
Oh I hear you cry 'say it aint so'.

Bojo may well be a bafoon, court jester, philanderer, serial adulterer and much more besides. His private life is nothing to to with anyone! However, what he has above the others is:  He fights for the causes with integrity and enthusiasm and he KNOWS the difference between migrants comming to work here legally, and mass unchecked mostly single male  immigration.
What do you reckon to his promise to give amnesty to our illegal immigrants? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on July 29, 2019, 07:24:54 AM
Indeed!  This is why I am not influenced by other peoles take on political issues which are important. Political satire, scandal seeking, name calling,point scoring are all childish pathetic behaviour unwoethy of the hard working tax paying citizens of the UK.

We really do not have a proper democracy- we have sock puppets who pander to the unelected elites agendas.
Oh I hear you cry 'say it aint so'.

Bojo may well be a bafoon, court jester, philanderer, serial adulterer and much more besides. His private life is nothing to to with anyone! However, what he has above the others is:  He fights for the causes with integrity and enthusiasm and he KNOWS the difference between migrants comming to work here legally, and mass unchecked mostly single male  immigration.


He wrote this plea to remain two days before switching camp.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnsons-article-backing-britains-future-in-the-eu-a3370296.html

And this "mass unchecked mostly single male  immigration" is by citizens of which EU country?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on July 29, 2019, 03:12:40 PM
I just had to steal this from a friend’s facebook page:

“It's mad that we're heading for the most extreme and damaging Brexit after a slim majority of 52 vs 48. Imagine if remain had won 52 vs 48 and that was taken as a mandate for some extreme version of remain; join the Euro, demand everyone speak German as a first language, wine and cheese for dinner every day, compulsory siestas, cannabis cafes on every street. Any complaints and we'd just be all "Nein, es ist der Wille des Volkes".

I think I've defeated my own point here actually, it sounds amazing”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 31, 2019, 07:24:38 PM

He wrote this plea to remain two days before switching camp.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnsons-article-backing-britains-future-in-the-eu-a3370296.html

And this "mass unchecked mostly single male  immigration" is by citizens of which EU country?

Oh seriously!
Stop trying to put all immigration as the same. There are legal ways to enter the EU and find work IF that is what some 'immigrants want'. HOWEVER  there are ILLEGAL immigrantswho jump of rafts- head through EU countries and land here claiming asylum-  get up to all sorts of criminality.

Breaking the law and breaking the asylum remit. Which is- go to the first safe country. UK is no where near Iraq. Iran. Africa.?    They throw away their passports to stop them being deported  a determined bunch of criminals IMO.


Italians are getting fed up with the invasion of tens of thousands landing on their doorstep every year!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 31, 2019, 07:28:03 PM
I just had to steal this from a friend’s facebook page:

“It's mad that we're heading for the most extreme and damaging Brexit after a slim majority of 52 vs 48. Imagine if remain had won 52 vs 48 and that was taken as a mandate for some extreme version of remain; join the Euro, demand everyone speak German as a first language, wine and cheese for dinner every day, compulsory siestas, cannabis cafes on every street. Any complaints and we'd just be all "Nein, es ist der Wille des Volkes".

I think I've defeated my own point here actually, it sounds amazing”.

They have cheap flights- bon voyage! 8**8:/: My brother lives there...

Your friend touched on a valid point.  Majority voted to leave!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 01, 2019, 08:48:48 AM
They have cheap flights- bon voyage! 8**8:/: My brother lives there...

Your friend touched on a valid point.  Majority voted to leave!
I’m there now.  Will I be able to move here permanently and work, post Brexit?  If so, count me in!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on August 01, 2019, 01:42:23 PM
I just had to steal this from a friend’s facebook page:

“It's mad that we're heading for the most extreme and damaging Brexit after a slim majority of 52 vs 48. Imagine if remain had won 52 vs 48 and that was taken as a mandate for some extreme version of remain; join the Euro, demand everyone speak German as a first language, wine and cheese for dinner every day, compulsory siestas, cannabis cafes on every street. Any complaints and we'd just be all "Nein, es ist der Wille des Volkes".

I think I've defeated my own point here actually, it sounds amazing”.

About time we exited this European conspiracy to create a federal Europe. Generations in the future will thank those of us who had the bottle to do so.  Be in no doubt though, the minute we do leave will signal the breakup of the EU as we currently know it.  I wonder who will be next, Spain or Italy?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 01, 2019, 03:26:25 PM
About time we exited this European conspiracy to create a federal Europe. Generations in the future will thank those of us who had the bottle to do so.  Be in no doubt though, the minute we do leave will signal the breakup of the EU as we currently know it.  I wonder who will be next, Spain or Italy?
Neither country will have the appetite to go through the absolute fiasco thst we have been through in the last three years, IMO. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Baz on August 01, 2019, 04:51:34 PM
About time we exited this European conspiracy to create a federal Europe. Generations in the future will thank those of us who had the bottle to do so.  Be in no doubt though, the minute we do leave will signal the breakup of the EU as we currently know it.  I wonder who will be next, Spain or Italy?

The truth is that no matter how confidentiality you state your beliefs that Brexit will be praised by future generations you have no way of knowing. Future generations may well blame those that were silly enough to vote for isolationism over co-operation. The current state of the pound, for instance, doesn't bode well. But we will just have to wait and see, unless you're psychic?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Baz on August 01, 2019, 04:58:33 PM
At least he understands it will damage our democracy if he desn't deliver what the people voted for.

I'm genuinely fascinated by those that declare that nothing is more important than the democratic process and that are up in arms at the prospect of the referendum not being implemented (despite referendums being advisory, not to mention all the other problematic issues with this paticular one!) but are not up in arms that a new Prime Minister was just given the keys to the country without 'we the people' being consulted. Why the absolute insistence on democracy for one referendum but not for who actually runs the country?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 01, 2019, 05:51:55 PM
I'm genuinely fascinated by those that declare that nothing is more important than the democratic process and that are up in arms at the prospect of the referendum not being implemented (despite referendums being advisory, not to mention all the other problematic issues with this paticular one!) but are not up in arms that a new Prime Minister was just given the keys to the country without 'we the people' being consulted. Why the absolute insistence on democracy for one referendum but not for who actually runs the country?
Quite.  The future of this country has been determined by less than 200,000 mostly white middle-aged, middle class males.  Just like the good old days in fact!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 01, 2019, 07:58:41 PM
I'm genuinely fascinated by those that declare that nothing is more important than the democratic process and that are up in arms at the prospect of the referendum not being implemented (despite referendums being advisory, not to mention all the other problematic issues with this paticular one!) but are not up in arms that a new Prime Minister was just given the keys to the country without 'we the people' being consulted. Why the absolute insistence on democracy for one referendum but not for who actually runs the country?


Hi Baz fear not, Just to inform you - the public never vote for a leader,(that is done by party members) they vote for a party! Leaders come and go, policies change...life goes on.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 01, 2019, 08:05:22 PM

Hi Baz fear not, Just to inform you - the public never vote for a leader,(that is done by party members) they vote for a party! Leaders come and go, policies change...life goes on.
The public vote for a party, in large part based on what their leader is like and has promised.  I know many Labour supporters who will never vote for Labour again until Corbyn is kicked out, for example.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Baz on August 01, 2019, 08:39:22 PM

Hi Baz fear not, Just to inform you - the public never vote for a leader,(that is done by party members) they vote for a party! Leaders come and go, policies change...life goes on.

I am fully aware that the public don't get to vote for our leader thanks. In fact that was basically the point of my post. How barely democratic that process is.

Oh and just to inform you... the public do not vote for a party, they vote for an MP.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 02, 2019, 07:58:01 AM
I'm genuinely fascinated by those that declare that nothing is more important than the democratic process and that are up in arms at the prospect of the referendum not being implemented (despite referendums being advisory, not to mention all the other problematic issues with this paticular one!) but are not up in arms that a new Prime Minister was just given the keys to the country without 'we the people' being consulted. Why the absolute insistence on democracy for one referendum but not for who actually runs the country?

Hello Baz.  The people of the UK were asked to vote on Brexit, and a majority voted for it. A democratic process with a result. Most of the UK's political parties agreed to implement the result of that vote, but they haven't. Democracy denied. Honourable Members behaving dishonourably.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 02, 2019, 09:24:34 AM
Good on the voters of Brecon and Radnorshire for rejecting Tory extremism and voting in a pro-remain MP.  How will Boris fare with a majority of one...?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 02, 2019, 10:13:17 AM
A  little background on Farage's World4Brexit opaque outfit...

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/mp-demands-investigation-into-farages-us-dark-money-pro-brexit-campaign-group/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Baz on August 02, 2019, 01:28:29 PM
Hello Baz.  The people of the UK were asked to vote on Brexit, and a majority voted for it. A democratic process with a result. Most of the UK's political parties agreed to implement the result of that vote, but they haven't. Democracy denied. Honourable Members behaving dishonourably.

There really is no need to be that dramatic, democracy has not been denied. The plan is still to leave, it just hasn't happened as quickly a some would like. It's taken so long because they want to find a way to leave the EU whilst having as little a detrimental impact on our economy (and our Union!) as possible. Which makes sense to me.

But that really wasn't the point I was making anyway. I was asking why those like yourself that are up in arms about a perceived slight against their precious democracy do not seem to give a damn that a new Prime Minister and government can be put in power without a mandate from the general public.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 06, 2019, 06:08:50 PM
An excellent comment under an article about Brexit in today’s Times

I guess I just don't understand.  You can talk about stuff 'in a spirit of friendliness' but the logic of the situation is wholly against the UK.

If we leave the EU we will no longer be part of the EU's political, legal, insurance and logistical framework.  For both ourselves and for the EU there would be divergence.  A border would automatically form to express this!  Most of the EU's border is sea luckily but where it is not (the notorious Polish-Ukrainian border!) it is a nightmare.  If we are not in the customs union and the single market then this has to be expressed as a hard border.

But we can't have a hard border because of the sheer bad luck that the EU/UK border runs across a sensitive island with an international treaty about there not being a hard border.  This has been made clear by the EU and by the USA and by rational people in the UK.  Nobody imagined the UK would be thick enough to leave the EU so no provision was made for such a self-hating change.  Ireland is not, as many Brexit people seem to believe, a sort of 'optional country' that should go away or grow up or whatever.  It is part of the vastly larger EU.

There is therefore a limit on how separate we can in practice be from the EU.  This was expressed in May's deal.  May's deal got us out within this external constraint.  It is also helpful to us as the resulting alignment stops us absurdly 'crashing out'.  In practice almost nobody at all in the UK who is sane cares about this level of alignment.  It formalizes what is there anyway: that as an offshore set of islands next to the rest of Europe that is still in the EU, the UK will not call the shots!  But that is what we voted for.

The UK government might as well declare that we can in fact drink saltw..er or hold our breath indefinitely.

If we leave on 'no deal' in this context (and with the EU, Japan and the USA all saying this would be unacceptable) then the entire government should be put on trial for stupidity as much as for treason.  We will still wind up doing what the EU tells us, but not as a serious partner but as a laughed-at supplicant.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 08, 2019, 08:04:32 AM
Dominic Cummimgs:
https://news.sky.com/story/dominic-cummings-why-johnsons-top-adviser-would-relish-cutting-dreadful-mps-from-brexit-11779494
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 08, 2019, 04:21:04 PM
There really is no need to be that dramatic, democracy has not been denied. The plan is still to leave, it just hasn't happened as quickly a some would like. It's taken so long because they want to find a way to leave the EU whilst having as little a detrimental impact on our economy (and our Union!) as possible. Which makes sense to me.

But that really wasn't the point I was making anyway. I was asking why those like yourself that are up in arms about a perceived slight against their precious democracy do not seem to give a damn that a new Prime Minister and government can be put in power without a mandate from the general public.

The two things are not related.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 08, 2019, 04:31:05 PM
An excellent comment under an article about Brexit in today’s Times

I guess I just don't understand.  You can talk about stuff 'in a spirit of friendliness' but the logic of the situation is wholly against the UK.

If we leave the EU we will no longer be part of the EU's political, legal, insurance and logistical framework.  For both ourselves and for the EU there would be divergence.  A border would automatically form to express this!  Most of the EU's border is sea luckily but where it is not (the notorious Polish-Ukrainian border!) it is a nightmare.  If we are not in the customs union and the single market then this has to be expressed as a hard border.

But we can't have a hard border because of the sheer bad luck that the EU/UK border runs across a sensitive island with an international treaty about there not being a hard border.  This has been made clear by the EU and by the USA and by rational people in the UK.  Nobody imagined the UK would be thick enough to leave the EU so no provision was made for such a self-hating change.  Ireland is not, as many Brexit people seem to believe, a sort of 'optional country' that should go away or grow up or whatever.  It is part of the vastly larger EU.

There is therefore a limit on how separate we can in practice be from the EU.  This was expressed in May's deal.  May's deal got us out within this external constraint.  It is also helpful to us as the resulting alignment stops us absurdly 'crashing out'.  In practice almost nobody at all in the UK who is sane cares about this level of alignment.  It formalizes what is there anyway: that as an offshore set of islands next to the rest of Europe that is still in the EU, the UK will not call the shots!  But that is what we voted for.

The UK government might as well declare that we can in fact drink saltw..er or hold our breath indefinitely.

If we leave on 'no deal' in this context (and with the EU, Japan and the USA all saying this would be unacceptable) then the entire government should be put on trial for stupidity as much as for treason.  We will still wind up doing what the EU tells us, but not as a serious partner but as a laughed-at supplicant.

Boris needs the DUP to have a Parliamentary majority. The DUP don't want the backstop.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 08, 2019, 06:41:10 PM
Boris needs the DUP to have a Parliamentary majority. The DUP don't want the backstop.
And?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on August 11, 2019, 12:17:09 PM
Ever wondered why Farage appeared so delighted at the pound tanking?

(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/iDmv6V.tohUk/v1/-1x-1.jpg)

The Big Brexit Short

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht40yrt3VrY

And

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-12-21/for-farage-and-brexit-pollster-a-world-of-gamblers-and-gambling
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2019, 12:39:08 PM
And?

Therefore no deal is his only option. If a General Election is called the UK will leave while we have no sitting Parliament. So a vote of no confidence is unlikely to be instigated. The Government has always been in charge, now the idea is that Parliament is paramount. Boris is certainly causing alarm.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 11, 2019, 02:44:29 PM
Therefore no deal is his only option. If a General Election is called the UK will leave while we have no sitting Parliament. So a vote of no confidence is unlikely to be instigated. The Government has always been in charge, now the idea is that Parliament is paramount. Boris is certainly causing alarm.
He’s certainly causing confusion, with his claim that the chances of no deal are a million to one as we hurtle swiftly towards thr cliff edge (again!)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Baz on August 12, 2019, 01:29:17 PM
The two things are not related.

They're both results of a supposedly democratic process. One of which has gotten people (like you) talking passionately about how important the will of the people is. The other, suddenly the will of the people doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 15, 2019, 12:14:07 AM
I am fully aware that the public don't get to vote for our leader thanks. In fact that was basically the point of my post. How barely democratic that process is.

Oh and just to inform you... the public do not vote for a party, they vote for an MP.

They actually vote for  the party who select an MP or should I say impose one.  It is party policies and politics. People do not usually say they are voting for  mr A or ms B  they say I am voting Tory or labour /other.

Tony WMD Bliar got into No 10 on a majority of  a minority of the population!

We have a party politic version of democracy- the head of the party gets the top job if elected!

So to make it look easier to understand. The majority of people voted CONSERVATIVE at the last election. They did not vote for Teresa May specifically.

 Many Labour suporters are not voting Labour because they do not like Corbyn as their leader.

I don't involve myself with time wasting personal dirt digging on specific sides of the house- It is pointless and childish playground  talk 'she hit me'- I never hit him blah blah. boring and pointless.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 15, 2019, 09:34:57 AM
They're both results of a supposedly democratic process. One of which has gotten people (like you) talking passionately about how important the will of the people is. The other, suddenly the will of the people doesn't matter.

Very different democratic processes however. One is a national process, the other isn't.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 15, 2019, 09:50:23 AM
So all these MP's who reject the thought of a no deal exit from the EU 'for the good of the country' are rejecting the proposal being suggested by Her Majesty's Opposition. Why? Because they are horrified at the idea of an interim government headed by the Leader of Her Majesty's Oposition. It seems to me that they could be putting party politices before the good of the country.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 15, 2019, 01:40:17 PM
So all these MP's who reject the thought of a no deal exit from the EU 'for the good of the country' are rejecting the proposal being suggested by Her Majesty's Opposition. Why? Because they are horrified at the idea of an interim government headed by the Leader of Her Majesty's Oposition. It seems to me that they could be putting party politices before the good of the country.

Indeed!  and is it really democratic to have a PM  head of a party which was VOTED IN TO 'RUN' the country should be ousted and replacecd by a leader who was NOT elected by the country AND the party was not voted for to run the country. this does look like a stalin style takeover.  and look what he did to his 'countrymen/women. Worse than Hitler,slaughtered more.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 15, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
So all these MP's who reject the thought of a no deal exit from the EU 'for the good of the country' are rejecting the proposal being suggested by Her Majesty's Opposition. Why? Because they are horrified at the idea of an interim government headed by the Leader of Her Majesty's Oposition. It seems to me that they could be putting party politices before the good of the country.
No, they are definitely putting the good of the country before anything else.  The worst thing imaginable for this country, even worse than Brexit is Brexit under Jeremy Corbyn.  What a nightmare scenario that would be IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 15, 2019, 11:44:39 PM
No, they are definitely putting the good of the country before anything else.  The worst thing imaginable for this country, even worse than Brexit is Brexit under Jeremy Corbyn.  What a nightmare scenario that would be IMO.

Well, while they're still fighting Johnson is forging ahead and the clock is ticking. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 16, 2019, 07:16:10 AM
Well, while they're still fighting Johnson is forging ahead and the clock is ticking.
What exactly is Johnson forging ahead with, apart from regularly shaking the magic money tree?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 16, 2019, 08:11:23 AM
What exactly is Johnson forging ahead with, apart from regularly shaking the magic money tree?

With whatever his plans are. He has stated that the UK will leave the EU on October 31st, deal or no deal. He seems to be playing a game of chicken with the EU. He has said what he wants and they have said no. It remains to be seen who, if anyone, will give way.

Many in the UK parliament want to stop us leaving without a deal, but they are so divided that they haven't been able to come up with an agreed strategy to stop it happening.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 16, 2019, 08:18:10 AM
With whatever his plans are. He has stated that the UK will leave the EU on October 31st, deal or no deal. He seems to be playing a game of chicken with the EU. He has said what he wants and they have said no. It remains to be seen who, if anyone, will give way.

Many in the UK parliament want to stop us leaving without a deal, but they are so divided that they haven't been able to come up with an agreed strategy to stop it happening.
And as soon as we exit with no deal we are going to have to spend years trying to negotiate a trade deal with the EU who won’t really be regarding the UK with any great fondness.  Excellent plan!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Baz on August 16, 2019, 10:02:10 AM
They actually vote for  the party who select an MP or should I say impose one.  It is party policies and politics. People do not usually say they are voting for  mr A or ms B  they say I am voting Tory or labour /other.

Tony WMD Bliar got into No 10 on a majority of  a minority of the population!

We have a party politic version of democracy- the head of the party gets the top job if elected!

So to make it look easier to understand. The majority of people voted CONSERVATIVE at the last election. They did not vote for Teresa May specifically.

 Many Labour suporters are not voting Labour because they do not like Corbyn as their leader.

I don't involve myself with time wasting personal dirt digging on specific sides of the house- It is pointless and childish playground  talk 'she hit me'- I never hit him blah blah. boring and pointless.

You can not go into a voting booth and vote for a party. You HAVE to vote for an MP. I know in practise many people will just cast their vote depending on the party being represented but even these people have to vote for an MP. It's that simple.

Very different democratic processes however. One is a national process, the other isn't.

EXACTLY!!! How does that not infuriate people who claim democracy to be so supremely important. Surely the top job in the country is the most important time for the democratic process to be national?? If anything, the party choosing the Prime Minister is barely democracy at all.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 16, 2019, 09:56:40 PM
And as soon as we exit with no deal we are going to have to spend years trying to negotiate a trade deal with the EU who won’t really be regarding the UK with any great fondness.  Excellent plan!

The MP's should have voted for May's deal then. What are they doing now? Fighting over who gets to be interim PM if a vote of no confidence topples the Tories. What a crew!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 16, 2019, 11:25:20 PM
The MP's should have voted for May's deal then. What are they doing now? Fighting over who gets to be interim PM if a vote of no confidence topples the Tories. What a crew!
I agree, they should have.  Some did, but not enough.  Labour refused to support it - why?  What was their agenda exactly? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 17, 2019, 09:08:00 AM
I agree, they should have.  Some did, but not enough.  Labour refused to support it - why?  What was their agenda exactly?

They have only themselves to blame then. May wasn't completely committed to Brexit at all costs. This lot appear to be quite different.

In the event that a vote of no confidence takes place and is carried the goverment has 14 days to try to win a vote of confidence. That takes us to September 2nd if the vote was taken on Monday. If the government fails a general election follows, during which parliament is dissolved. It takes @ 6 weeks to organise a general election, which takes us to October 21st. It seems to me time is not on parliament's side. How can they stop the goverment calling an election, even if they had an agreement on this interim government?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 17, 2019, 07:18:26 PM
They have only themselves to blame then. May wasn't completely committed to Brexit at all costs. This lot appear to be quite different.

In the event that a vote of no confidence takes place and is carried the goverment has 14 days to try to win a vote of confidence. That takes us to September 2nd if the vote was taken on Monday. If the government fails a general election follows, during which parliament is dissolved. It takes @ 6 weeks to organise a general election, which takes us to October 21st. It seems to me time is not on parliament's side. How can they stop the goverment calling an election, even if they had an agreement on this interim government?
No, May wasn’t “do or die”, but frankly I think dying is not really a sensible option, despite Boris’ promise.  Boris plans to call an election close to D-Day and therefore parliament will be in a state of suspension on 31st October so that the parliamentary process can be by-passed,  How jolly democratic. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 18, 2019, 07:38:23 AM
No-deal Brexit preparations: the leaked Operation Yellowhammer document
August 18 2019, 12:01am,

BASE SCENARIO

When the UK ceases to be a member of the European Union in October 2019, all rights and reciprocal arrangements with the EU end.

● The UK reverts fully to “third country” status. The relationship between the UK and the European Union as a whole is unsympathetic, with many member states (under pressure from the European Commission) unwilling to engage bilaterally and implementing protections unilaterally, though some member states may be more understanding.

● No bilateral deals have been concluded with individual member states, with the exception of the reciprocal agreement on social security co-ordination with the Republic of Ireland. EU citizens living in the UK can retain broadly all rights and status that they were entitled before the UK’s exit from the EU, at the point of exit.

● Public and business readiness for no-deal will remain at a low level, and will decrease to lower levels, because the absence of a clear decision on the form of EU Exit (customs union, no deal etc) does not provide a concrete situation for third parties to prepare for. Readiness will be further limited by increasing EU Exit fatigue caused by the second extension of article 50.

● Business readiness will not be uniform – in general large businesses that work across sectors are likely to have better developed counting plans than small and medium-size businesses. Business readiness will be compounded by seasonal effects and factors such as warehouse availability.

● Private sector companies’ behaviour will be governed by commercial considerations, unless they are influenced otherwise.

● Her Majesty’s government will act in accordance with the rule of law, including by identifying the powers it is using to take specific actions.

●Risks associated with autumn and winter, such as severe weather, flooding and seasonal flu, could exacerbate any effects and stretch the resources of partners and responders.

KEY PLANNING ASSUMPTIONS

Exit day
For the purpose of freight flow and traffic management, as October 31 is a Thursday, Day 1 of Exit is now on a Friday rather than the weekend, which is not to our advantage. Exit Day may coincide with the half-term holiday, which varies across the UK.

Member states
In a small number of instances where the impacts of Brexit would be felt negatively in the EU as well as in the UK, member states may act in a way that could benefit the UK.

Channel ports
France will impose EU mandatory controls on UK goods on Day 1 of No Deal and has built infrastructure and IT systems to manage and process customs declarations and to support a risk-based control regime. On Day 1 of No Deal, 50%-85% of HGVs travelling via the short straits may not be ready for French customs. The lack of trader readiness combined with limited space in French ports to hold “unready” HGVs could reduce the flow rate to 40%-60% of current levels within one day.

The worst disruption to the short Channel crossings might last 3 months before flow rates rise to about 50%-70% (as more traders get prepared), although disruption could continue much longer. In the event of serious disruption, the French might act to ensure some flow through the short Channel crossings.

Disruption to Channel flow would also cause significant queues in Kent and delays to HGVs attempting to use the routes to travel to France. In a reasonable worst-case scenario, HGVs could face a maximum delay of 1½-2½ days before being able to cross the border. HGVs caught up in congestion in the UK will be unable to return to the EU to collect another load and some logistics firms may decide to avoid the route. Analysis to date has suggested a low risk of significant sustained queues at ports outside Kent that have high volumes of EU traffic, but the Border Delivery Group will continue to work directly with stakeholders at those ports to support planning readiness.

Border checks
UK citizens travelling to and from the EU may be subject to increased immigration checks at border posts. This may lead to passenger delays at St Pancras, Cheriton (Channel tunnel) and Dover, where border controls are juxtaposed. Depending on what plans EU member states put in place to cope with these increased immigration checks, it is likely delays will occur for UK arrivals and departures at EU airports and ports. This could cause some disruption on transport services. Travellers may decide to use alternative routes to complete their journey.

Drugs and disease
i) The Border Delivery Group/Department for Transport planning assumption on reduced flow rates describes a pre-mitigation reasonable worst-case flow rate that could be as low as 40% on Day 1 of No Deal via the short straits [main Channel crossings], with significant disruption lasting up to six months. Unmitigated, this will have an impact on the supply of medicines and medical supplies.

Supply chains for medicines and medical products rely heavily on the short straits, which makes them particularly vulnerable to severe delays: three-quarters of medicines come via the short straits. Supply chains are also highly regulated and require transportation that meets strict Good Distribution Practices. This can include limits on transit times and temperature-controlled conditions. While some products can be stockpiled, others cannot because of short shelf lives. It will not be practical to stockpile six months’ supplies. The Department for Health and Social Care is developing a multi-layered approach to mitigate these risks.

ii) Any disruption that reduces, delays or stops the supply of medicines for UK veterinary use would reduce our ability to prevent and control disease outbreaks, with potential harm to animal health and welfare, the environment and wider food safety and availability, as well as, in the case of zoonotic diseases, posing a risk to human health. Industry stockpiling will not be able to match the 4-12 weeks’ stockpiling that took place in March 2019. Air freight capacity and the special import scheme are not a financially viable way to mitigate risks associated with veterinary medicine availability issues.


Food and water
i) Certain types of fresh food supply will decrease. Critical elements of the food supply chain (such as ingredients, chemicals and packaging) may be in short supply. In combination, these two factors will not cause an overall shortage of food in the UK but will reduce availability and choice and increase the price, which will affect vulnerable groups. The UK growing season will have come to an end, so the agri-food supply chain will be under increased pressure for food retailers. Government will not be able to fully anticipate all effects on the agri-food supply chain. There is a risk that panic buying will disrupt food supplies.

ii) Public water services are likely to remain largely unaffected, thanks to actions now being taken by water companies. The most significant single risk is a failure in the chemicals supply chain. The likelihood of this is considered low, and the impact is likely to be local, affecting only hundreds of thousands of people. Water companies are well prepared for any disruption: they have significant stocks of all critical chemicals, extensive monitoring of their chemicals supply chains (including transport and deliveries) and sharing agreements in place. In the event of a supply chain failure, or the need to respond rapidly to other water supply incidents, urgent action may need to be taken to make sure people continue to have access to clean water.

Law and order
Law enforcement data and information-sharing between the UK and the EU will be disrupted.

Financial services and insurance
Some cross-border UK financial services will be disrupted. A small minority of insurance payments from UK insurers into the EU may be delayed.

Data
The EU will not have made a data decision with regard to the UK before exit. This will disrupt the flow of personal data from the EU, where an alternative legal basis for transfer is not in place. In no-deal, an adequacy assessment could take years.

Fuel
Traffic disruption caused by border delays could affect fuel distribution in the local area, particularly if traffic queues In Kent block the Dartford crossing, which would disrupt fuel supply in London and the southeast. Customer behaviour could lead to shortages in other parts of the country.

Tariffs make UK petrol exports to the EU uncompetitive. Industry had plans to mitigate the impact on refinery margins and profitability, but UK government policy to set petrol import tariffs at 0% inadvertently undermines these plans. This leads to big financial losses and the closure of two refineries (which are converted to import terminals) with about 2,000 direct job losses. Resulting strike action at refineries would lead to disruptions to fuel availability for 1-2 weeks in the regions they directly supply. Government analysis of the impact of no-deal on refineries continues.

Northern Ireland
On Day 1 of No Deal, Her Majesty’s government will activate the “no new checks with limited exceptions” model announced on March 13, establishing a legislative framework and essential operations and system on the ground, to avoid an immediate risk of a return to a hard border on the UK side.

The model is likely to prove unsustainable because of economic, legal and biosecurity risks. With the UK becoming a “third [non-EU] country”, the automatic application of EU tariffs and regulatory requirements for goods entering Ireland will severely disrupt trade. The expectation is that some businesses will stop trading or relocate to avoid either paying tariffs that will make them uncompetitive or trading illegally; others will continue to trade but will experience higher costs that may be passed on to consumers. The agri-food sector will be hardest hit, given its reliance on complicated cross-border supply chains and the high tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade.

Disruption to key sectors and job losses are likely to result in protests and direct action with road blockades. Price and other differentials are likely to lead to the growth of the illegitimate economy. This will be particularly severe in border communities where criminal and dissident groups already operate with greater freedom. Given the tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade, there will be pressure to agree new arrangements to supersede the Day 1 model within days or weeks.

Energy supplies
Demand for energy will be met, and there will be no disruption to electricity or gas interconnectors. In Northern Ireland there will not be immediate disruption to electricity supply on Day 1. A rapid split of SEM could occur months or years after the EU Exit. In this event there would not be issues about security of supply. However, there will probably be marked price rises for electricity customers (business and domestic), with associated wider economic and political effects. Some participants could exit the market, exacerbating economic and political effects.

Gibraltar
Because of the imposition of checks at its border with Spain (and the knock-on effect of delays from the UK to the EU), Gibraltar will see disruption to the supply of goods (including food and medicines) and to shipments of waste, plus delays of four-plus hours for at least a few months in the movement of frontier workers, residents and tourists across the border.

Prolonged border delays over the longer term are likely to harm Gibraltar’s economy. As on the UK mainland, cross-border services and data flow will be disrupted. Despite the time extension to the UK’s exit from the EU, Gibraltar has still not taken the decisions to invest in contingency infrastructure (such as port adjustments and waste management equipment) and there are still concerns that Gibraltar will not have passed all necessary legislation for no-deal, opening up legal risks mainly for the government of Gibraltar. Gibraltar continues to plan for less significant border delays than in our Yellowhammer scenario. Crown dependencies may be affected by supply chain disruption.

Brits in Europe
i) UK nationals will lose their EU citizenship and can expect to lose associated rights and access to services over time, or be required to access them on a different basis. All member states have now published legislative proposals, but not all have passed legislation to secure all rights for UK nationals.

There is a mixed picture across member states in terms of the level of generosity and detail in the legislation. In some member states, UK nationals need to take action now. Complex administrative procedures within member states, language barriers and uncertainty regarding the UK political situation are contributing to some UK nationals being slow to take action. Demands for help on Her Majesty’s government will increase significantly, including an increase in consular inquiries and more complex and time-consuming consular assistance cases for vulnerable UK nationals.

Cross-government support, including continued close engagement and clear communications from UK government departments and the departmental agencies, will be needed to help manage the demand.

ii) An EU member state would continue to pay a pension it currently pays to a UK national living in the EU.

iii) The commission and individual member states do not agree to extend the current healthcare arrangements for UK state pensioners and tourists beyond October 31, 2019, and refuse offers by the UK to fund treatments. Member states take no further action to guarantee healthcare for UK nationals and treat them in the same way as the other “third country” nationals. UK pensioners, workers, travellers and students will need to access healthcare in different ways, depending on the country. Healthcare systems may require people to demonstrate residency and current or previous employment, to enter a social insurance scheme or to purchase private insurance. Member states should treat people with urgent needs but may require them to pay after the fact. There is a risk of disruption for patients, and a minority could face substantial costs.

Protests and police
Protests and counter-protests will take place across the UK, using up police resources. There may also be a rise in public disorder and community tensions.

Fishing
Up to 282 EU and European Economic Area nations’ fishing vessels could enter illegally or are already fishing in UK waters: up to 129 vessels in English waters, 100 in Scottish waters, 40 in Welsh waters and 13 in Northern Irish waters on Day 1. This is likely to cause anger and frustration in the UK catching sector, which could lead to clashes between fishing vessels and an increase in non-compliance in the domestic fleet.

Competing demands on UK government and maritime departmental agencies and their assets could put enforcement and response capabilities at risk, especially in the event of illegal fishing, border violations (smuggling and illegal migration) and any disorder or criminality arising as a result, eg violent disputes or blockading of ports.

The poor
Low-income groups will be disproportionately affected by rises in the price of food and fuel.

Social care
There is an assumption that there will be no big changes in adult social care on the day after EU Exit. The adult social care market is already fragile because of the declining financial viability of providers.

An increase in inflation after the UK’s EU exit would affect providers of adult social care through increasing staff and supply costs, and might lead to failure within 2-3 months for smaller providers and 4-6 months for larger ones. There are also local risks — transport or staff disruption, severe winter weather or flu — that could exacerbate existing market fragility and that cumulatively could stretch the resources of providers and local authorities.

Intelligence will continue to be gathered to prepare for any effects on the sector, including closure of services and handing-back of contracts that are not part of the normal market function. In addition, by mid-August we will look at the status of preparations in four local authorities identified as concerns.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 18, 2019, 07:39:45 AM
All the above is thoroughly preventable but must be carried out because it is allegedly the will of the people.  What idiocy.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 18, 2019, 09:08:24 AM
No, May wasn’t “do or die”, but frankly I think dying is not really a sensible option, despite Boris’ promise.  Boris plans to call an election close to D-Day and therefore parliament will be in a state of suspension on 31st October so that the parliamentary process can be by-passed,  How jolly democratic.

Ironic, isn't it. MP's have prevented the result of a democratic vote being delivered. It would be amusing if they complained about a lack of democracy imo.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 18, 2019, 05:23:20 PM
Ironic, isn't it. MP's have prevented the result of a democratic vote being delivered. It would be amusing if they complained about a lack of democracy imo.
In the same way that those who bleat about democracy being thwarted will be very delighted to see democracy being thwarted in October.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 18, 2019, 06:04:50 PM
In the same way that those who bleat about democracy being thwarted will be very delighted to see democracy being thwarted in October.

I'm not convinced that following laid-down parliamentary procedures amounts to thwarting democracy.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 18, 2019, 06:26:28 PM
I'm not convinced that following laid-down parliamentary procedures amounts to thwarting democracy.
You think bulldozing through a no deal Brexit by suspending parliament is democratic?  OK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 18, 2019, 06:41:29 PM
“Boris Johnson’s No Deal obsession is actually ignoring 91.2% of referendum voters.

A 2016 poll of 1594 British adults discovered that a limited free trade deal with the European Union without any financial contribution or freedom of movement was people's preferred choice for Brexit.

While much of the talk from Brexiteers has been about respecting the will of the people and ensuring democracy is the real winner, it seems that the Prime Minister’s preferred option would please just 8.8% of the public, those that wanted to leave the European Union without a deal”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 18, 2019, 07:59:59 PM
You think bulldozing through a no deal Brexit by suspending parliament is democratic?  OK.

If a vote of no confidence is carried a general election normally follows. That's procedure, nothing to do with democracy imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 18, 2019, 08:02:28 PM
If a vote of no confidence is carried a general election normally follows. That's procedure, nothing to do with democracy imo.
Is that the law?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 19, 2019, 07:12:57 AM
Ain’t it the truth?!  Another brilliant article from a Times commentator

Brexit doublethink is blinding us to the facts
August 19 2019, 12:01am,
Alex Massie

The challenge in British and American politics now is to steer through a tide of disinformation and land at the truth


‘To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” So said George Orwell, patron saint of the commentator classes. Preach, comrade. If this has always been true it has rarely more certainly been the case than now. Absurdity and mendacity are the reserve currencies of the moment.

Consider the prime minister, a man who simultaneously reassures us that a no-deal Brexit is a “million-to-one” outsider about which there is no need to be concerned and then, in the very next breath, suggests that it’s no big deal because, if you look at matters from the correct perspective, no deal might be a spiffing result anyway.

This is a form of Brexit doublethink entirely consistent with Boris Johnson’s view that cake is for having and eating. Cakeism is all the rage these days.

Thus one cabinet minister told The Sun last week that “the EU will give us a better deal because if they don’t, Ireland is f***ed. No-deal will destroy it.” This is worth pondering. The UK will, on the whole, be OK with no deal and, indeed, might even thrive in such circumstances, but Ireland will be ruined. Sometimes, you know, you wonder if they’ve quite thought this through.

Meanwhile, in the real world every available indicator suggests that the EU is determined to stick to its position. The Irish government has long been concerned that, at the last moment, it might be abandoned by its European allies but, for the time being, the line that the Irish backstop is non-negotiable still holds.

Germany, meanwhile, appears more convinced than ever that no deal is, if you will, better than a bad deal for the EU. This may be a matter for regret; it remains the way it is. But then from the EU’s perspective there is a deal and it’s the British who are welching on it without bringing any attractive alternative proposals to the fabled Brexit table.

Not that delusions are restricted to the pro-Brexit half of British politics. In recent days there has been a flurry of wishful thinking about a so-called government of national unity — almost all of which has ignored the reality that no such thing is possible. Even if it could be cobbled together it would no more be a government of national unity than Mr Johnson’s ministry for the simple reason that any available government must either be in favour of Brexit or against it. As soon as a position has been taken on that matter the government forfeits all claims to be one of “national unity”.

Half of the country, roughly speaking, is in favour of Brexit and half of the country is less enthused by it and there’s nothing that can be done to change that. Unity is not on the agenda.

Spare us, too, the sanctimony of remainer MPs who would do anything to avoid a no-deal Brexit except vote for the withdrawal agreement negotiated by Theresa May that would, yes, have avoided a no-deal Brexit.

Jeremy Corbyn’s chiselling mendacity on this question is only to be expected but other MPs should know better and be held to a higher standard. A no-deal Brexit is on them almost as much as it is on the most committed Brexiteers.

Then there is the grisly question of Donald Trump. Brexiteers are all in with the Donald, not least because he’s one of the few world leaders who thinks Brexit is a capital notion. This owes less to the merits of the case for Brexit itself than to Mr Trump’s belief — his not entirely unwarranted belief — that the EU is a competitor more than it is a friend to the United States.

In Mr Trump’s mind every game is a zero-sum one and thus anything that weakens the EU is worthwhile. This is not a case of him being pro-British, rather one of him being anti-EU.

Even so the enthusiasm for Mr Trump evident in the keenest Brexit circles is revealing. It protests just a little too much for its own good and, by doing so, seems more likely to be a sign of weakness and neediness than strength. Mr Trump, however, will play along for as long as doing so allows someone else to be the mug.

Hence all this blathering about a fast-track trade deal with the UK. If this cannot be achieved — and it almost certainly will not be — there will instead be “sector by sector” mini deals that will, in sum, amount to much the same thing.

Pull the other one. Saying something does not make it so. Nothing in Mr Trump’s record suggests he understands the concept of comparative advantage. On the contrary, if you’re happy he assumes he’s being screwed. And Mr Trump would rather do the screwing himself. It takes some mammoth quantity of wishful thinking to look at Mr Trump’s trade war with China — so easy to win, apparently, yet in reality so self-defeating — and think he’s a man with whom Brexit Britain can do business. Even if he were, freer trade with the United States means stickier trade with the EU given the disparity in standards between the two trading powers.

Cosying up to this American president, besides being a grubby matter, is a risky proposition in any case. Mr Trump may not be president by Christmas next year and even if you think he might be more likely to be re-elected than not, there must be at least a 40 per cent chance he will not be re-endorsed by the American people. Do you really wish to go all-in on that?

Yesterday The Sunday Times revealed the contents of Operation Yellowhammer, the government’s contingency planning for a no-deal Brexit. They do not make for cheerful reading. Medical supplies will be “vulnerable to severe extended delays”, food supplies risk being compromised, disruption at ports will last for months before the situation “improves” so traffic flows are 50-70 per cent of the normal present rate.

So be it, you may think. Such are the consequences of a referendum that, on this one issue, makes MPs delegates not representatives. Brexit must happen because the people have insisted upon it but Brexit happening imposes no requirement to abandon the truth or to deny the obvious reality of truths that are hiding in plain sight.

But then, as Orwell said, doublethink permits you “to forget any fact that has become inconvenient” — even as you believe wholeheartedly in mutually exclusive realities.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 19, 2019, 11:55:10 AM
Is that the law?

As I said earlier, it seems to be the procedure which follows a carried vote of no confidence. I can find nothing which says an unelected interim government would follow.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 19, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
As I said earlier, it seems to be the procedure which follows a carried vote of no confidence. I can find nothing which says an unelected interim government would follow.
Boris does not have to call a general election until it suits him, he will time it so that parliament is suspended over the weeks leading up to  31st October sovthere can be no parliamentary opposition to a no deal Brexit.  Then, after the sunny uplands have been reached it will be election day and all the happy British people will vote for the Tories and he will go forward with a thumping majority, held aloft on a sedan chair made of gold.  That’s the theory anyway..
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 19, 2019, 06:01:17 PM
Boris does not have to call a general election until it suits him, he will time it so that parliament is suspended over the weeks leading up to  31st October sovthere can be no parliamentary opposition to a no deal Brexit.  Then, after the sunny uplands have been reached it will be election day and all the happy British people will vote for the Tories and he will go forward with a thumping majority, held aloft on a sedan chair made of gold.  That’s the theory anyway..

If his government lose a vote of no confidence that changes the choices open to him. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 19, 2019, 06:11:22 PM
If his government lose a vote of no confidence that changes the choices open to him.
Did you actually read what I wrote?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2019, 07:23:57 AM
Did you actually read what I wrote?

Which bit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2019, 07:50:10 AM
Which bit?
All of it.  It wasn’t very long!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2019, 09:52:54 AM
Another great article, from Prospect Magazine

Is Boris Johnson bluffing?
The PM is genuinely banking on last minute concessions from Europe. But he has made a grave miscalculation

by Jonathan Lis   / August 14, 2019 / Leave a comment
Facebook
Twitter
Linkedin
Email
 
Would he really carry out his no-deal threats? Photo: Kirsty Wigglewsorth/PA Wire/PA Images

If you are wondering whether you are living through some kind of fever dream this summer, you are not alone. The normally calm and quiet August days are currently filled with newspaper articles about voluntary airlifts to deliver food and medicine in less than 12 weeks’ time, while pundits are debating what happens if the prime minister loses the confidence of MPs but refuses to resign. Government-supporting newspapers are reporting this unique self-inflicted catastrophe not as a manifestation of collective breakdown but as a celebration of national sovereignty. What on earth is going on?

Consider the prime minister himself. The most important thing to remember about Boris Johnson is that he is exclusively devoted to his own advancement. The second most important thing is that while we may consider him solipsistic and zealously uninterested in anyone else’s viewpoint, he is not stupid.

It is safe to assume that Johnson knows what no deal involves. Does he worry about a future of insulin shortages, the pound collapsing and supermarkets running out of food? Perhaps that’s the wrong way to frame it. Does he think he will be blamed for the disaster and will it cost him support? This is the better question, and if he is not a fool then he will know that the answer must be yes. There are many people who currently feel they could never vote for Jeremy Corbyn, but would still prefer a Corbyn government to a Johnson one which imposed medicine shortages on the grounds of defending national sovereignty.

The PM must know that no deal will destroy his premiership just months after it has begun. In other words, he does not want no deal. Why, then, does he appear to be leading us inexorably towards it?

There is plenty of speculation about what Johnson is up to. Some theories are better than others, though we cannot be certain of any of them. It may be that not even he knows what he thinks he is doing. But let’s assume he is engineering some kind of strategy.

Theory one is that Johnson is indeed pursuing no deal, but thinks he will escape the blame. Does he think the public will instead hold the EU responsible for the catastrophe? It is just about credible that the PM believes he can charm (or gaslight) the British people with his alleged charisma, but he should have the political sense to know that voters do not reward their leaders for economic chaos. The EU would never again feature on a British ballot paper. Johnson would. We should discount this one.

Two, Johnson genuinely wants no deal, but thinks it won’t be as bad as people are saying. The problem here is that it doesn’t matter. In recent months the media has responded with hysteria to airport closures and a power cut. Magnify that by a hundred and for a period of weeks or months and you have some idea of the chaos about to hit. People will not be satisfied if the disruption is only severe as opposed to calamitous. Nobody voted for chaos and will not respond to it with stoicism, a stiff upper lip or “Blitz spirit.” Unless Johnson is stupid—which he isn’t—he will know this too.

“If sovereignty means anything, it means the right to self-destruct”

The third theory is that Johnson wants no deal, and will achieve it by proroguing parliament. The courts will almost certainly block such an outrage, but again, it is highly unlikely the PM would ever attempt it. He does not want to go down in history as the prime minister who dismantled Britain’s parliamentary democracy, and he knows that he will not be able to govern if he does.

Four, that like a child who is pushing every limit in the knowledge that his parents will save him from himself, Johnson expects and indeed wants parliament to stop him. Then he can push for a “people-versus-parliament” election. This may be credible but is still laughably short-sighted. Johnson would have to stand on a platform of delivering a no-deal Brexit and then, if victorious, he would have to deliver it—thus ending his premiership immediately.

Five, that Johnson is attempting to shift the Overton window to the worst-case scenario in order to normalise a slightly better one. The worst-case scenario could be the suspension of parliament, or any kind of no deal. Yet if the PM tries to adapt Theresa May’s deal, or delivers any kind of bad Brexit, he will be punished for it—and he knows it.

The sixth—and most likely—theory recalls the defining error of the Brexiters over the last four years. Namely, Johnson really believes the EU will blink. Faced with the catastrophe of no deal, Ireland will confront the worst-case scenario the backstop was designed to avoid, and submit to the demands of its former colonial oppressor.

This seam of foolishness has been knocked down time and again, but survives in the Brexiters’ imagination because it is all they have left. They have to believe that we are powerful, have leverage and can one day rise to become a “great” nation again, because the alternative is to accept that a small country like Ireland is now vastly more powerful than we are, and that we have trashed our influence and reputation for no reason at all.

The truth is that the EU is not afraid of the UK and not afraid of no deal. It is afraid only of its own political fragmentation. It is why the EU insisted on giving us no special favours. It is why they refused to grant us membership of the single market in goods alone despite the advantage this would have given their businesses. And it is why Brussels will never throw Ireland under the bus to stop no deal.

Nobody in the EU wants Britain to crash out. They have worked hard to avoid it. But if the UK government ditches the exit deal it agreed in order to throw itself off a cliff, Brussels will let it. After all, if sovereignty means anything, it means the right to self-destruct.

Many clever people don’t understand the EU and never have. Exceptionalist self-obsession has convinced the prime minister that ultimately others will bend to his position through charisma or sheer force of will.

The PM doesn’t want no deal, but believes the EU wants it less. He is bluffing. But he has miscalculated. And he will be stopped.

 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2019, 12:42:12 PM
All of it.  It wasn’t very long!

Yes, what about it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2019, 12:54:16 PM
Another great article, from Prospect Magazine

Is Boris Johnson bluffing?
The PM is genuinely banking on last minute concessions from Europe. But he has made a grave miscalculation

by Jonathan Lis   / August 14, 2019 / Leave a comment
Facebook
Twitter
Linkedin
Email
 
Would he really carry out his no-deal threats? Photo: Kirsty Wigglewsorth/PA Wire/PA Images

If you are wondering whether you are living through some kind of fever dream this summer, you are not alone. The normally calm and quiet August days are currently filled with newspaper articles about voluntary airlifts to deliver food and medicine in less than 12 weeks’ time, while pundits are debating what happens if the prime minister loses the confidence of MPs but refuses to resign. Government-supporting newspapers are reporting this unique self-inflicted catastrophe not as a manifestation of collective breakdown but as a celebration of national sovereignty. What on earth is going on?

Consider the prime minister himself. The most important thing to remember about Boris Johnson is that he is exclusively devoted to his own advancement. The second most important thing is that while we may consider him solipsistic and zealously uninterested in anyone else’s viewpoint, he is not stupid.

It is safe to assume that Johnson knows what no deal involves. Does he worry about a future of insulin shortages, the pound collapsing and supermarkets running out of food? Perhaps that’s the wrong way to frame it. Does he think he will be blamed for the disaster and will it cost him support? This is the better question, and if he is not a fool then he will know that the answer must be yes. There are many people who currently feel they could never vote for Jeremy Corbyn, but would still prefer a Corbyn government to a Johnson one which imposed medicine shortages on the grounds of defending national sovereignty.

The PM must know that no deal will destroy his premiership just months after it has begun. In other words, he does not want no deal. Why, then, does he appear to be leading us inexorably towards it?

There is plenty of speculation about what Johnson is up to. Some theories are better than others, though we cannot be certain of any of them. It may be that not even he knows what he thinks he is doing. But let’s assume he is engineering some kind of strategy.

Theory one is that Johnson is indeed pursuing no deal, but thinks he will escape the blame. Does he think the public will instead hold the EU responsible for the catastrophe? It is just about credible that the PM believes he can charm (or gaslight) the British people with his alleged charisma, but he should have the political sense to know that voters do not reward their leaders for economic chaos. The EU would never again feature on a British ballot paper. Johnson would. We should discount this one.

Two, Johnson genuinely wants no deal, but thinks it won’t be as bad as people are saying. The problem here is that it doesn’t matter. In recent months the media has responded with hysteria to airport closures and a power cut. Magnify that by a hundred and for a period of weeks or months and you have some idea of the chaos about to hit. People will not be satisfied if the disruption is only severe as opposed to calamitous. Nobody voted for chaos and will not respond to it with stoicism, a stiff upper lip or “Blitz spirit.” Unless Johnson is stupid—which he isn’t—he will know this too.

“If sovereignty means anything, it means the right to self-destruct”

The third theory is that Johnson wants no deal, and will achieve it by proroguing parliament. The courts will almost certainly block such an outrage, but again, it is highly unlikely the PM would ever attempt it. He does not want to go down in history as the prime minister who dismantled Britain’s parliamentary democracy, and he knows that he will not be able to govern if he does.

Four, that like a child who is pushing every limit in the knowledge that his parents will save him from himself, Johnson expects and indeed wants parliament to stop him. Then he can push for a “people-versus-parliament” election. This may be credible but is still laughably short-sighted. Johnson would have to stand on a platform of delivering a no-deal Brexit and then, if victorious, he would have to deliver it—thus ending his premiership immediately.

Five, that Johnson is attempting to shift the Overton window to the worst-case scenario in order to normalise a slightly better one. The worst-case scenario could be the suspension of parliament, or any kind of no deal. Yet if the PM tries to adapt Theresa May’s deal, or delivers any kind of bad Brexit, he will be punished for it—and he knows it.

The sixth—and most likely—theory recalls the defining error of the Brexiters over the last four years. Namely, Johnson really believes the EU will blink. Faced with the catastrophe of no deal, Ireland will confront the worst-case scenario the backstop was designed to avoid, and submit to the demands of its former colonial oppressor.

This seam of foolishness has been knocked down time and again, but survives in the Brexiters’ imagination because it is all they have left. They have to believe that we are powerful, have leverage and can one day rise to become a “great” nation again, because the alternative is to accept that a small country like Ireland is now vastly more powerful than we are, and that we have trashed our influence and reputation for no reason at all.

The truth is that the EU is not afraid of the UK and not afraid of no deal. It is afraid only of its own political fragmentation. It is why the EU insisted on giving us no special favours. It is why they refused to grant us membership of the single market in goods alone despite the advantage this would have given their businesses. And it is why Brussels will never throw Ireland under the bus to stop no deal.

Nobody in the EU wants Britain to crash out. They have worked hard to avoid it. But if the UK government ditches the exit deal it agreed in order to throw itself off a cliff, Brussels will let it. After all, if sovereignty means anything, it means the right to self-destruct.

Many clever people don’t understand the EU and never have. Exceptionalist self-obsession has convinced the prime minister that ultimately others will bend to his position through charisma or sheer force of will.

The PM doesn’t want no deal, but believes the EU wants it less. He is bluffing. But he has miscalculated. And he will be stopped.

There are many who think they know what's what, but do they?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2019, 05:16:29 PM
Yes, what about it?
Your reply to my post did not seem to address anything I wrote in it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2019, 05:17:34 PM
There are many who think they know what's what, but do they?
The intelligent ones do, IMO.  This article is intelligent IMO. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2019, 06:33:50 PM
The intelligent ones do, IMO.  This article is intelligent IMO.

I suppose 'the intelligent ones' include you, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2019, 06:38:06 PM
I suppose 'the intelligent ones' include you, in your opinion?
No, I’m thick as two short planks me, I’m sure you agree.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2019, 06:45:47 PM
Someone very intelligent said this:

“The Brexit vote is a disaster and the breaking up of the togetherness of Europe is a crime bordering on a sin. I think the more people are together, not separate, the happier they will be”.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 20, 2019, 08:09:23 PM
Someone very intelligent said this:

“The Brexit vote is a disaster and the breaking up of the togetherness of Europe is a crime bordering on a sin. I think the more people are together, not separate, the happier they will be”.

Ask the Italians, Germans and the French  citizens (not to touchy feelie goody lefties)who have a daily invasion of  single males who seek 'work'. It is NOT being relayed in the  main stream media for some strange reason.  Looks like NOT all are happy.

Is there much of a difference between an inteligent and very intelligent person?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2019, 08:46:02 PM
Ask the Italians, Germans and the French  citizens (not to touchy feelie goody lefties)who have a daily invasion of  single males who seek 'work'. It is NOT being relayed in the  main stream media for some strange reason.  Looks like NOT all are happy.

Is there much of a difference between an inteligent and very intelligent person?
Yes.  One is more intelligent than the other.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 20, 2019, 09:38:44 PM
Someone very intelligent said this:

“The Brexit vote is a disaster and the breaking up of the togetherness of Europe is a crime bordering on a sin. I think the more people are together, not separate, the happier they will be”.

Yea, I've noticed the 'togetherness' between certain  @)(++(* sections of the UK and Portugal.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 20, 2019, 10:44:38 PM
Yea, I've noticed the 'togetherness' between certain  @)(++(* sections of the UK and Portugal.
Are you saying ths intelligent commentator is wrong?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2019, 08:09:25 AM
Are you saying ths intelligent commentator is wrong?

Depends what is meant by togetherness. I've got no problems with any European Country, but I've got no particular connections either.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2019, 08:17:16 AM
Depends what is meant by togetherness. I've got no problems with any European Country, but I've got no particular connections either.
There is strength, peace and security in a union, less so when you’re on your own, I think that’s what this particular intelligent commentator means, in any case he is quite adamant that Brexit is just about the worst idea ever.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2019, 10:26:25 AM
I don't know about you, but I've lived in the United Kingdom most of my life. I can't say it's been all that peaceful and secure. Three out of the four countries aren't happy with the union in my opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2019, 10:36:48 AM
I don't know about you, but I've lived in the United Kingdom most of my life. I can't say it's been all that peaceful and secure. Three out of the four countries aren't happy with the union in my opinion.
What are you suggesting?  That not only should we leave the EU we should leave the UK as well?  Why stop there?  Why not break it down into self governing counties with their own governments?  I'm sure that would bring peace and security and prosperity.  And if it doesn't we could always go one further and break it down to cities and towns becoming countries in their own right.  And if that doesn't work then perhaps home owners could declare themselves independent, of each other, that's sure to bring peace and security to all.   Who needs "togetherness" after all?  Vastly overrated! 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2019, 11:48:42 AM
What are you suggesting?  That not only should we leave the EU we should leave the UK as well?  Why stop there?  Why not break it down into self governing counties with their own governments?  I'm sure that would bring peace and security and prosperity.  And if it doesn't we could always go one further and break it down to cities and towns becoming countries in their own right.  And if that doesn't work then perhaps home owners could declare themselves independent, of each other, that's sure to bring peace and security to all.   Who needs "togetherness" after all?  Vastly overrated!

I'm suggesting nothing, merely observing that unions are not always peaceful and secure. Your intelligent commentator seems to have overlooked that.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2019, 11:56:47 AM
I'm suggesting nothing, merely observing that unions are not always peaceful and secure. Your intelligent commentator seems to have overlooked that.
The UK has been peaceful and secure since for hundreds of years, notwithstanding the actions of the Luftwaffe and a small minority of violent trouble makers in Ireland, and an even smaller minority in Wales.  I seem to recall that in the last democratic process in Scotland, the people of that country voted to remain part of the union and civil war did not ensue.  This United Kingdom will almost inevitably be destroyed by Brexit however, so hurrah for that, some might say.  Not me, nor the highly intelligent commentator I am referring to, though apparently for the first time in his life he has decided to support the notion of Scottish independence.  Who can blame him really? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2019, 12:58:48 PM
The UK has been peaceful and secure since for hundreds of years, notwithstanding the actions of the Luftwaffe and a small minority of violent trouble makers in Ireland, and an even smaller minority in Wales.  I seem to recall that in the last democratic process in Scotland, the people of that country voted to remain part of the union and civil war did not ensue.  This United Kingdom will almost inevitably be destroyed by Brexit however, so hurrah for that, some might say.  Not me, nor the highly intelligent commentator I am referring to, though apparently for the first time in his life he has decided to support the notion of Scottish independence.  Who can blame him really?

Your intelligent commentator, of course, doesn't live in the UK so might just be a little out of touch.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2019, 01:13:06 PM
Your intelligent commentator, of course, doesn't live in the UK so might just be a little out of touch.
I think you'll find that he is intelligent enough and has spent enough time in this country over the last 75 years to know EXACTLY what he is talking about.   Also, his view is shared by many similarly intelligent kinfolk.   
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2019, 01:53:34 PM
Your intelligent commentator, of course, doesn't live in the UK so might just be a little out of touch.
Serious question: do you think England alone will fare better on the world stage than the UK has done as part of the EU?  I know the world stage doesn’t much matter to you, so another question - do you think the English will be a happier, more content people in isolation than as part of the UK and/or the EU?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2019, 02:39:00 PM
Serious question: do you think England alone will fare better on the world stage than the UK has done as part of the EU?  I know the world stage doesn’t much matter to you, so another question - do you think the English will be a happier, more content people in isolation than as part of the UK and/or the EU?

My happiness and contentment has never been dependant on such matters. I'm very good at making the best of whatever circumstances I find myself in.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2019, 02:40:53 PM
My happiness and contentment has never been dependant on such matters. I'm very good at making the best of whatever circumstances I find myself in.
Gosh, you’re terribly self-centred IMO, I didn’t ask about you personally, but never mind I obviously won’t get a sensible answer from you.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 21, 2019, 06:44:40 PM
Gosh, you’re terribly self-centred IMO, I didn’t ask about you personally, but never mind I obviously won’t get a sensible answer from you.

You only deserve a reply when you engage without attitude.

 You and fellow  your intelligent kinfolks and the very inteligent ones, have no idea what is best for EVERYONEs happiness. We are all different and We have different lives and ideas about what makes us happy.

Asking a question to which cannot possible be answered on account of the fact No one, not even your very,very inteligent folks can say everyone in the UK will be happy. Unless you and your intelligent people have asked EVERYONE in the UK. 

So ,with that regard your question about togetherness, it  was answered by the brexit vote. not everyone shares your view.  And that doesn't make them less intelligent. Only fools seek to be known as intelligent, those of us who are, do not need validation.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2019, 07:09:52 PM
You only deserve a reply when you engage without attitude.

 You and fellow  your intelligent kinfolks and the very inteligent ones, have no idea what is best for EVERYONEs happiness. We are all different and We have different lives and ideas about what makes us happy.

Asking a question to which cannot possible be answered on account of the fact No one, not even your very,very inteligent folks can say everyone in the UK will be happy. Unless you and your intelligent people have asked EVERYONE in the UK. 

So ,with that regard your question about togetherness, it  was answered by the brexit vote. not everyone shares your view.  And that doesn't make them less intelligent. Only fools seek to be known as intelligent, those of us who are, do not need validation.

Well said!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2019, 07:14:25 PM
You only deserve a reply when you engage without attitude.

 You and fellow  your intelligent kinfolks and the very inteligent ones, have no idea what is best for EVERYONEs happiness. We are all different and We have different lives and ideas about what makes us happy.

Asking a question to which cannot possible be answered on account of the fact No one, not even your very,very inteligent folks can say everyone in the UK will be happy. Unless you and your intelligent people have asked EVERYONE in the UK. 

So ,with that regard your question about togetherness, it  was answered by the brexit vote. not everyone shares your view.  And that doesn't make them less intelligent. Only fools seek to be known as intelligent, those of us who are, do not need validation.
”You only deserve a reply when you engage without attitude”.  In that case, you don’t deserve any further reply.  TTFN. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 21, 2019, 07:19:26 PM
IMO the people of this country who voted for Brexit did so because they thought their country would be better off out of Europe.  Therefore it is a fair question to ask if by being out of Europe that also means the break up of the Union, do the same people still feel they will be better off.   G-Unit obviously doesn’t care one way or the other despite also appearing to be a Brexit supporter.  I find that rather odd myself.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 22, 2019, 07:45:12 AM
IMO the people of this country who voted for Brexit did so because they thought their country would be better off out of Europe.  Therefore it is a fair question to ask if by being out of Europe that also means the break up of the Union, do the same people still feel they will be better off.   G-Unit obviously doesn’t care one way or the other despite also appearing to be a Brexit supporter.  I find that rather odd myself.

You're assuming that people had the good of 'their country' in mind when they voted. Is that true? I don't know and, I suspect, neither do you. If parts of the UK want to break up the union badly enough they may well suceed, but using Brexit as the reason is a strawman argument as they'll be out of the EU themselves by then with little chance of getting back in as they're not sovereign states.

We now seem to be talking about being 'better off' whatever that means. What happened to happy and contented? I'm not a Brexiteer or a Remainer; I'm neutral. I'd like to see our slippery politicians honour the result of a democratic vote, that's all. They've demonstrated their willingness to ditch democratic principles when it suits their agendas and that's a disgrace imo. If there's a massive backlash when these people next face the electorate it will be entirely their own faults.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 22, 2019, 07:58:51 AM
You're assuming that people had the good of 'their country' in mind when they voted. Is that true? I don't know and, I suspect, neither do you. If parts of the UK want to break up the union badly enough they may well suceed, but using Brexit as the reason is a strawman argument as they'll be out of the EU themselves by then with little chance of getting back in as they're not sovereign states.

We now seem to be talking about being 'better off' whatever that means. What happened to happy and contented? I'm not a Brexiteer or a Remainer; I'm neutral. I'd like to see our slippery politicians honour the result of a democratic vote, that's all. They've demonstrated their willingness to ditch democratic principles when it suits their agendas and that's a disgrace imo. If there's a massive backlash when these people next face the electorate it will be entirely their own faults.
If people did not believe the country and/or themselves would be better off out of the EU (and better off applies as a general catch-all term, not soley applicable to wealth which I know you frown upon) then what other reasons could there have been (apart from sheer ignorance)?  It certainly would not be not a strawman to blame Brexit for  the break up of the Union IMO, it would be entirely justified to blame Brexit in Ireland (reunification there would keep NI in the EU) and Scotland who would apply to re-join and would no doubt be welcomed back with opened arms, if only to really piss off the English.   
You may pretend to be neutral but all your support on this forum resides with the half of the population that voted to leave, you seem to have only disdain for the other half who think it’s an act of national self-harm that Parliament is struggling to come to terms with.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 22, 2019, 08:46:09 AM
If people did not believe the country and/or themselves would be better off out of the EU (and better off applies as a general catch-all term, not soley applicable to wealth which I know you frown upon) then what other reasons could there have been (apart from sheer ignorance)?  It certainly would not be not a strawman to blame Brexit for  the break up of the Union IMO, it would be entirely justified to blame Brexit in Ireland (reunification there would keep NI in the EU) and Scotland who would apply to re-join and would no doubt be welcomed back with opened arms, if only to really piss off the English.   
You may pretend to be neutral but all your support on this forum resides with the half of the population that voted to leave, you seem to have only disdain for the other half who think it’s an act of national self-harm that Parliament is struggling to come to terms with.

As I already said, I don't know why 17 + million people voted for Brexit, and neither do you. All I know is that if you are on the winning side in a vote it's undemocratic for your wishes to be denied.

Anyone predicting unification in Ireland is ignoring the complete rejection of the idea by those determined to remain British.

Scotland could apply to join the EU, but the process could take years.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17600349.scottish-independence-how-and-when-scotland-could-rejoin-the-eu/

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 22, 2019, 09:18:43 AM
As I already said, I don't know why 17 + million people voted for Brexit, and neither do you. All I know is that if you are on the winning side in a vote it's undemocratic for your wishes to be denied.

Anyone predicting unification in Ireland is ignoring the complete rejection of the idea by those determined to remain British.

Scotland could apply to join the EU, but the process could take years.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17600349.scottish-independence-how-and-when-scotland-could-rejoin-the-eu/
I’m pretty sure I do know why 17 million people voted for Brexit, even if you pretend not to have a clue.  As for the Irish question you raise a valid point - Brexit could possibly spark up the return of the troubles. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 22, 2019, 09:46:32 PM
I’m pretty sure I do know why 17 million people voted for Brexit, even if you pretend not to have a clue.  As for the Irish question you raise a valid point - Brexit could possibly spark up the return of the troubles.

"I’m pretty sure I do know why 17 million people voted for Brexi"

Really? ROTFL....

You really do not know the minds and thinking of those who voted to leave the EU. You are on a remoaner band wagon who claim brexit voters are- the great unintellinent/unwashed  fascists  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 22, 2019, 10:07:03 PM
"I’m pretty sure I do know why 17 million people voted for Brexi"

Really? ROTFL....

You really do not know the minds and thinking of those who voted to leave the EU. You are on a remoaner band wagon who claim brexit voters are- the great unintellinent/unwashed  fascists  @)(++(*
Yes I am pretty sure I do know why 17 million people voted for Brexit.  Why do you find this so hysterically funny?  Is it a secret?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 23, 2019, 06:42:25 PM
Yes I am pretty sure I do know why 17 million people voted for Brexit.  Why do you find this so hysterically funny?  Is it a secret?

AW  I thought I scored and you wouldn't reply to my posts- "you don’t deserve any further reply.  TTFN."

Okay evidence of your being a know all of the minds of 17+ million people. Not got it ? Ok no problem.

The reason I find it hilarious is- no one was asked why they wanted to leave, No stats were collated, so unless I missed that thematic analysis from a data warehouse with the replies of 17+ millions- you have shown yourself up to be a laughing stock.

Does this answer your question?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 23, 2019, 08:03:52 PM
AW  I thought I scored and you wouldn't reply to my posts- "you don’t deserve any further reply.  TTFN."

Okay evidence of your being a know all of the minds of 17+ million people. Not got it ? Ok no problem.

The reason I find it hilarious is- no one was asked why they wanted to leave, No stats were collated, so unless I missed that thematic analysis from a data warehouse with the replies of 17+ millions- you have shown yourself up to be a laughing stock.

Does this answer your question?
Stop stalking me!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2019, 09:07:23 PM
Stop stalking me!!

Are you deflecting? Go on, answer the question.  8(>((
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 23, 2019, 11:43:49 PM
Are you deflecting? Go on, answer the question.  8(>((
Are you goading me?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 24, 2019, 07:24:07 AM
Are you goading me?

You claimed to know something, so please explain what you know and how you know it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 24, 2019, 08:09:13 AM
You claimed to know something, so please explain what you know and how you know it.
To what end?  For you to ridicule me, like Miss Taken did?  There are numerous reasons why people voted to leave the EU, they are all very well known, do you REALLY need me to list them all?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 24, 2019, 09:44:36 AM
To what end?  For you to ridicule me, like Miss Taken did?  There are numerous reasons why people voted to leave the EU, they are all very well known, do you REALLY need me to list them all?

You made a claim so I think you should back it up, with cites. Or withdraw it if you prefer.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 24, 2019, 05:43:09 PM
You made a claim so I think you should back it up, with cites. Or withdraw it if you prefer.
I claimed to know the reasons why people voted for Brexit, what sort of cites would you accept?  A newspaper article quoting Nigel Farage saying “Vertigo Swirl knows the reasons why people voted for Brexit”?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 25, 2019, 07:45:54 AM
I claimed to know the reasons why people voted for Brexit, what sort of cites would you accept?  A newspaper article quoting Nigel Farage saying “Vertigo Swirl knows the reasons why people voted for Brexit”?

It's all opinion anyway, whether your's or someone else's. I don't think anyone asked 17 million people the question, do you?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 25, 2019, 09:10:08 AM
It's all opinion anyway, whether your's or someone else's. I don't think anyone asked 17 million people the question, do you?
Of course it’s an opinion that’s why asking for a cite is absurd.  I knew also that any evidence I provided t back up my claim would be met with the equally absurd reply that not all 17 million people were asked individually for their reasons, and that, dear friend, is why I didn’t bother.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 25, 2019, 10:29:10 AM
Of course it’s an opinion that’s why asking for a cite is absurd.  I knew also that any evidence I provided t back up my claim would be met with the equally absurd reply that not all 17 million people were asked individually for their reasons, and that, dear friend, is why I didn’t bother.

It is also, dear friend, why your claim to know why people voted to leave the EU was absurd.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 25, 2019, 01:02:47 PM
It is also, dear friend, why your claim to know why people voted to leave the EU was absurd.
I do know and there’s nothing absurd about that.  Do you actually believe there are 17 million different reasons?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 25, 2019, 01:35:16 PM
I do know and there’s nothing absurd about that.  Do you actually believe there are 17 million different reasons?

No you don't, you just think you do.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 25, 2019, 02:50:02 PM
No you don't, you just think you do.
No, I actually do.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 26, 2019, 09:00:26 AM
Here is a helpful diagram of how Corbyn hopes to use a vote of no confidence;

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/520/cpsprodpb/14DA6/production/_108241458_no_confidence_flow_chart_8_aug_19_640-nc.png

His problem starts with the question immediately following the vote of no confidence being carried;

"Is it clear an alternative government commands the majority of the house?"

I suspect that the in-fighting over who should lead a new government will just demonstrate once again that Parliament can't agree on anything at the moment.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49468218

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 26, 2019, 09:32:48 AM
Here is a helpful diagram of how Corbyn hopes to use a vote of no confidence;

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/520/cpsprodpb/14DA6/production/_108241458_no_confidence_flow_chart_8_aug_19_640-nc.png

His problem starts with the question immediately following the vote of no confidence being carried;

"Is it clear an alternative government commands the majority of the house?"

I suspect that the in-fighting over who should lead a new government will just demonstrate once again that Parliament can't agree on anything at the moment.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49468218
Which just goes to show why Jeremy Corbyn is such an utter disaster for this country.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 26, 2019, 09:47:04 AM
In the space of a few weeks we’ve gone from a million to one likelihood of a no-deal Brexit, to “touch and go” - what has changed Boris?  Is it the dawning realisation that you were talking bollocks earlier?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 26, 2019, 11:49:50 AM
Which just goes to show why Jeremy Corbyn is such an utter disaster for this country.

One definition of a country is 'all the people who live in a country'. In recent years the UK has not been run for the benefit of all those who live here, especially the poor. Corbyn's aim is to redress the balance, which is only a bad thing if you're one of those who has no empathy with those who's lives are a constant struggle.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 26, 2019, 02:26:13 PM
One definition of a country is 'all the people who live in a country'. In recent years the UK has not been run for the benefit of all those who live here, especially the poor. Corbyn's aim is to redress the balance, which is only a bad thing if you're one of those who has no empathy with those who's lives are a constant struggle.
That is not my problem with Jeremy Corbyn.  My problem is that he is leader of a party that offers nothing in the way if an effective opposition to the government, as can be witnessed by the latest opinion polls which put the Tories many points ahead of Labour, incredibly!  Where IS Jeremy Corbyn?  Has he lost his voice??  He doesn’t seem remotely interested in Brexit, what is his position?  What is the position of the Labour Party?  How does it support those who will undoubtedly suffer in the event of a no-deal Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 26, 2019, 02:44:01 PM
That is not my problem with Jeremy Corbyn.  My problem is that he is leader of a party that offers nothing in the way if an effective opposition to the government, as can be witnessed by the latest opinion polls which put the Tories many points ahead of Labour, incredibly!  Where IS Jeremy Corbyn?  Has he lost his voice??  He doesn’t seem remotely interested in Brexit, what is his position?  What is the position of the Labour Party?  How does it support those who will undoubtedly suffer in the event of a no-deal Brexit?

His problem is probably his MP's refusal to work with their leader. They have made the party ineffective imo. Theresa May had a similar problem and Johnson has yet to test his party support.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 26, 2019, 07:01:37 PM
His problem is probably his MP's refusal to work with their leader. They have made the party ineffective imo. Theresa May had a similar problem and Johnson has yet to test his party support.
Of course.  St Jeremy is blameless.  His problem is he’s a waste of space, has alienated his MPs and erstwhile Labour party supporters, and has been unable to offer any reasonable attempt at an opposition, particularly over Brexit on which subject he has been virtually silent, or at best confused. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 27, 2019, 07:42:40 AM
Of course.  St Jeremy is blameless.  His problem is he’s a waste of space, has alienated his MPs and erstwhile Labour party supporters, and has been unable to offer any reasonable attempt at an opposition, particularly over Brexit on which subject he has been virtually silent, or at best confused.

Anyone who thinks politicians will abandon their party politics and their relentless pursuit of power in favour of pulling together for 'the good of the country' is deluded imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 27, 2019, 07:49:11 AM
Hilarious!

68 dumb-f..k reasons for leaving the EU
View all posts by Andy Bodle13th October 2016
Brexit illoThe UK’s vote to exit the European Union has created many uncertainties. Will the country be better off, or worse? Is the UK a xenophobic, retrogressive nation, or a brave, proud, forward-looking one? Can the Conservatives and Labour remain united in this time of turmoil? Will anyone be able to afford to go on holiday again?

The result has made one thing crystal clear: the UK is a bitterly divided nation, along lines of age, race, region, class, wealth and education. If we are going to begin to heal these divisions, it is crucial that we try to establish exactly why it is that 51.9% of those who voted decided that being outside the European Union was better than being in it. Once we have a better understanding of these grievances, we can address them and – hopefully, one day – resolve them.

To this end, I have begun compiling a list of reasons given by Leavers, gathered from Twitter, Facebook, comment threads, discussion forums and friends.

1. “Because of all the EU laws that we have no say in.”
“Name one.”
“Erm …”
“Come on, what are these laws are that you won’t have to obey any more that made you vote for this short-term economic hit? Can you name one?”
“I wouldn’t be able to, no.” (Caller to James O’Brien’s LBC radio show)

2. “As a protest vote.”

3. “Because I want it to be a close result.”

4. “It [Sunderland] already is [a giant jobcentre]. That’s why I voted Leave, to put everyone else in the shit like us.” (Twitter)

5. “To stick it to the toffs.”

6. “To give Cameron a bloody nose.” (Express website)

7. “To give Cameron a better negotiating position.”

8. “Because the EU closed the coalmines.” [The EU had nothing to do with the closing of the coalmines.]

9. “Because I thought we had been in long enough.”

10. “Because I had the hump.”

11. “Because now our lads will get out of prison, cos there will be jobs for them.”

12. “The main reason I voted out was because the EU parliament aren’t elected representatives. The second is, they pass laws that affect us, but we aren’t given a say. Third, we need to sort our own house out.” (J, on Facebook, giving exactly the same – factually wrong – reason in three different ways)

13. “Because I felt uncomfortable when a group of brown people got on the bus the other day.” (Family member)

14. “Because the EU made them change Marathons to Snickers.” [That was Mars’s decision, not the EU’s.]

15. “Because they banned our bendy bananas.” (Express website) [The EU introduced a law stipulating that bananas should be given different classifications depending on their curvature. No fruit was ever banned – it was just a different classification system.]

16. “Because fishermen now won’t have to throw fish back in the water and Muslim women will no longer be told by their husbands not to wear make-up.” (Caller to LBC) [The exact effect of the UK’s withdrawal from the EU will have on fishing waters and quotas must wait until negotiations are complete, but we will still need agreements with our neighbours, and limits to prevent overfishing, which our neighbours will probably wish to remain broadly the same.]

17. “Because I’ve lived here all my life, and when I was growing up, that street over there was filled with shops.” (TV documentary)

18. “To stop the Muslims immigrating here.” [Migration is unrestricted within the EU. But individual nations are responsible for setting their own limits on immigration from non-EU countries, such as those where the majority of citizens are Muslims. Leaving the EU will have no effect on the number of Muslims coming to the UK.]

19. “Because I want our old lightbulbs back!” [The EU has placed restrictions on the sale of old-style incandescent lightbulbs in a bid to reduce energy wastage and slow global warming.]

20. “Because vaccines should not be mandatory.” [The EU has never passed any law making vaccination mandatory, even though vaccination is widely regarded as being a pretty good idea. Some European countries have done so of their own volition.]

21. “Because the Queen said.” (Pro-Brexit Facebook group)

22. “Because we should not be signing up to TTIP.” [TTIP is a trade deal between EU and America, which the EU has just put on hold. After the UK leaves the EU, most commentators believe it will sign up to a similar deal with the US, probably with fewer checks and balances.]

23. “Because we are like Germany, and Germany isn’t in the EU.” [Germany was a founding member of the EU.]

24. “Because the country is full.”

25. “To annoy my wife.”

26. “It will be an adventure!”

27. “Because the value of the euro is going to go down.” [Even if it were true, this would not have a marked effect on the UK’s economy. Since the vote, sterling is down 18% against the dollar and 15% against the euro.]

28. “So that I can get cheap photovoltaic panels from China.”

29. “Because otherwise, 7 million Turks will come over here.” (LBC caller) [Turkey would never have been able to join the EU so long as Britain used its veto.]

30. “Because I am fed up with being ruled by unelected bureaucrats.” [The EU parliament is directly elected in regular European elections. The European commission –basically the civil service – recruits its own members.]

Screenshot of online conversation
The people have spoken.
31. “Because I didn’t want my sons to have to join a European army.” [The EU would never have formed an army so long as Britain exercised its veto. Even if it did, conscription would be a political and practical impossibility.]

32. “Because there’s too many Pakistan people in Glasgow.” [I repeat: EU membership has no bearing on immigration from outside the EU.]

33. “Because it takes more than 5 litres of water to flush my shit away.”

34. “Because EU taxes are making our petrol more expensive than everywhere else in Europe.” [No, those would be taxes imposed by the UK’s government. The EU plays no part in setting national tax rates.]

35. “To send them women in the headscarves back home. One of them stole my mum’s purse.”

36. “Because I don’t like what the EU is doing to Africa.”

37. “Because I’m scared of black people. They’re so physical.” (mother-in-law of member of Facebook group) [The mechanism by which leaving the EU will rid the UK of black people is unclear.]

38. “I don’t want to send money to Greece. I don’t care about Greece.”

39. “Because the EU does nothing for us.” [Estimates of the value of EU membership to the UK vary from £31bn to £92bn per year.]

40. “Because the EU has devoted 26,911 words to the regulation of cabbages.” [Seems quite a minor thing to sacrifice 20% of your pay packet for, but in any case, it’s bollocks. There are at present zero words in EU legislation specifically governing the production or sale of cabbages.]

41. “Because our prisons are full of Polish rapists.” [As of March 2016, there were 965 Polish nationals in British prisons. That’s out of a total Polish population of just over 800,000 — so 0.12% of all Poles here are convicted criminals. The total number of prisoners is around 95,000; about 0.14% of the population as a whole. I can’t find any figures broken down into both ethnicity and crime.]

42. “Because the roads in Oxfordshire are full of potholes.” [Technically, such matters fall within the local council’s purview.]

43. “Because the EU is anti-semitic.”

44. “So that we can go back to the way Britain was in the 50s.”

45. “Because they sold off the water, gas and electricity.” [Once again, that would be the work of the UK government, not the EU.]

46. “Because I couldn’t decide, and my boyfriend voted Remain.”

47. “Because schools are no longer allowed to hold nativity plays in case they offend Moslems.”

48. “Because the EU spent £13m on art last year.”

49. “Because they never vote for us in Eurovision.”

50. “Because if we stop all the immigrants using the NHS, it will work properly again.”

51. “So we don’t have to queue at the doctor’s.” [There is no clear consensus on the impact of immigration on the health service. Undoubtedly, more people in a country means more people to treat. But it is widely agreed that migrants to the UK are on average younger and healthier than the local population, that inward migration is good for the economy, which gives us more money to spend on the NHS, and that without migrant workers – 24% of doctors and 12% of nurses were not born in the UK – the health service would collapse. Besides, the ageing resident population is by far the biggest strain on health services.]

52. “Because I want a more powerful hoover.” (Facebook group)

53. “Because the EU is going to ban toasters, and I love toast.” (BBC interviewee) [The EU has never threatened to ban toasters. It is, however, considering a limit on the amount of energy that household appliances can use, in a bid to reduce the effect on the environment.]

54. “So we can have our electrical sockets low down by the skirting rather than have to put them little higher up the wall.”

55. “Because they are building houses for Filipinos and it’s blocking the view from my kitchen window.”

56. “Because I don’t understand politics. This is what my friends suggested.”

57. “Because there’s too much traffic in Sittingbourne.”

58.“Because they tell me I need scaffolding to clean my guttering.” [Really not sure where this information came from.]

59. “Because I fancied a change.” (Caller to Radio 4 programme)

60. “My uncle voted Leave because his sister told him to.”

61. “Because the European Parliament building is the same shape as the Tower of Babel, which is anti-Christ.” (Facebook group’s family member)

62. “So all the f..king Chinks will leave.” [China is not in the EU.]

63. “Because the ensuing recession is going to bring house prices down, and I can’t afford to buy a house.”

64. “Because I want to buy sweets in ounces, not grammes.” [The UK converted to the metric system two years before it joined the EU. Further, retailers can still sell in imperial units, alongside the metric ones, if they so desire.]

65. “Because they don’t pay for NHS prescriptions in Wales and Scotland, and that’s not fair.” (Manchester woman) [Again, precisely diddly squat to do with the EU.]

66. “So that I don’t have to pay the bedroom tax.” [The bedroom tax was imposed not by the EU, but by … oh, can’t you f..king guess by now?]

67. “Because I’m fed up of the French burning our lamb.” (Frank, Twitter)

68. “Because I want to use my teabag twice and the EU won’t let me.” (Aunt of friend of commenter) [Another falsehood peddled by Boris Johnson]

Thanks for contributing and helping to turn a sad list into a truly depressing one. I’m turning comments off here now because I’m getting spammed to death, but you can still add your gems to the version on Medium if you like.

Author: Andy Bodle
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 27, 2019, 08:30:20 AM
One definition of a country is 'all the people who live in a country'. In recent years the UK has not been run for the benefit of all those who live here, especially the poor. Corbyn's aim is to redress the balance, which is only a bad thing if you're one of those who has no empathy with those who's lives are a constant struggle.
St Jeremy has spoken

“Our country is heading into a crisis this autumn, with Boris Johnson’s Tories driving us towards a no-deal cliff edge. No deal would destroy people’s jobs, push up food prices in the shops and open our NHS to takeover by US private corporations.

We will do everything necessary to stop a disastrous no deal for which this government has no mandate. That’s why on Tuesday I am hosting a meeting of opposition parties to discuss how we can stop Johnson’s reckless rush for a no-deal Brexit. The stakes couldn’t be higher”.

So where do you stand on him now?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 27, 2019, 09:42:36 AM
“Mr Corbyn has said if he wins a no-confidence vote, he will delay Brexit, call a snap election and campaign for another referendum”.  Surely anyone who puts “the will of the people” above all else must be disgusted by this Corbyn pledge?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 27, 2019, 11:25:14 AM
St Jeremy has spoken

“Our country is heading into a crisis this autumn, with Boris Johnson’s Tories driving us towards a no-deal cliff edge. No deal would destroy people’s jobs, push up food prices in the shops and open our NHS to takeover by US private corporations.

We will do everything necessary to stop a disastrous no deal for which this government has no mandate. That’s why on Tuesday I am hosting a meeting of opposition parties to discuss how we can stop Johnson’s reckless rush for a no-deal Brexit. The stakes couldn’t be higher”.

So where do you stand on him now?

He's entitled to his opinion, but he's wrong about Johnson having no mandate imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 27, 2019, 03:55:01 PM
He's entitled to his opinion, but he's wrong about Johnson having no mandate imo.
What about his position on stopping a no deal Brexit and wanting a second referendum?  Got nothing critical to say about that I suppose?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 27, 2019, 04:48:57 PM
What about his position on stopping a no deal Brexit and wanting a second referendum?  Got nothing critical to say about that I suppose?

I think he's also being undemocratic. The referendum doesn't need repeating.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 27, 2019, 05:13:49 PM
I think he's also being undemocratic. The referendum doesn't need repeating.
How do you square that with your belief that his aim is to redress the balance between rich and poor?  Could it be that he genuinely believes a no deal Brexit really will be disastrous for the poorest in society hence his avowal to stop it happening?  Yet despite seeming to believe Corbyn has the best interests of the poor at heart you think Brexit must happen no matter how many suffer because that’s what the people voted for?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 27, 2019, 07:34:02 PM
How do you square that with your belief that his aim is to redress the balance between rich and poor?  Could it be that he genuinely believes a no deal Brexit really will be disastrous for the poorest in society hence his avowal to stop it happening?  Yet despite seeming to believe Corbyn has the best interests of the poor at heart you think Brexit must happen no matter how many suffer because that’s what the people voted for?

Just because you (and Jeremy Corbyn) think a no deal Brexit would be a catastrophe doesn't mean it's true.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 27, 2019, 08:45:28 PM
Just because you (and Jeremy Corbyn) think a no deal Brexit would be a catastrophe doesn't mean it's true.
Doesn’t mean it’s false either.  The fact is - it’s a risk, its short, medium and long term consequences can only be guessed at, which in my book is not a very responsible way to govern, especially as all the confidential forecasts from the government’s own advisors are not exactly a ringing endorsement of future health, wealth and happiness.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 28, 2019, 07:11:24 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovt1sC3rtM
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 28, 2019, 08:37:32 AM
Doesn’t mean it’s false either.  The fact is - it’s a risk, its short, medium and long term consequences can only be guessed at, which in my book is not a very responsible way to govern, especially as all the confidential forecasts from the government’s own advisors are not exactly a ringing endorsement of future health, wealth and happiness.

The UK joined the Common Market in 1973 and the Electorate approved that decision in a referendum in 1975. Since then things have changed significantly. In my opinion successive governments agreed to greater and greater integration in Europe than the economic integration initially agreed upon.

 According to Vernon Bogdanor there was “a clear constitutional rationale for requiring a referendum” on the question of whether to sign the Maastricht Treaty. In my opinion it was irresponsible to commit the UK to greater integration in the areas of foreign policy, military, criminal justice, and judicial cooperation without allowing the electorate their say.

For Bogdanor it was unconstitutional because;

‘The Legislative cannot transfer the power of making laws to any other hands. For it being but a delegated power from the People, they who have it cannot pass it to others.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 28, 2019, 11:25:40 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uovt1sC3rtM
I’d have put money on you being a Leaver.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Baz on August 28, 2019, 03:11:42 PM
.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 28, 2019, 03:42:34 PM
What happened to our post prorogation discussion?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 28, 2019, 03:50:35 PM
Planned anti-prorogation protests across the country
Planned protests against the prorogation of parliament are springing up around the country.

Campaign group Another Europe is Possible is planning a demo on College Green in Westminster at 5.30pm.

The Leeds for Europe group is planning a protest in the city’s City Square for Thursday evening at 5.30pm.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 28, 2019, 04:12:31 PM
I’d have put money on you being a Leaver.

I am. But I still found Stewart Lee's skit amusing.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 28, 2019, 04:26:44 PM
Planned anti-prorogation protests across the country
Planned protests against the prorogation of parliament are springing up around the country.

Campaign group Another Europe is Possible is planning a demo on College Green in Westminster at 5.30pm.

The Leeds for Europe group is planning a protest in the city’s City Square for Thursday evening at 5.30pm.

Will you be joining them, waving an EU flag & singing ode to joy?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 28, 2019, 04:42:40 PM
Will you be joining them, waving an EU flag & singing ode to joy?
No, it's raining.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 28, 2019, 04:43:29 PM
I am. But I still found Stewart Lee's skit amusing.
Good to know you can laugh at yourself and your fellow leavers. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on August 28, 2019, 07:48:10 PM
I am. But I still found Stewart Lee's skit amusing.

I've still not worked out if he's a genius or an idiot.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 28, 2019, 07:57:21 PM
I've still not worked out if he's a genius or an idiot.
He’s definitely not an idiot (unless you were referring to Spammy?)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on August 28, 2019, 08:41:13 PM
I've still not worked out if he's a genius or an idiot.

Stewart Lee is a comedy genius.

An old clip but still a good one.

Stewart Lee on UKIP & the bloody immigrants, comin' over 'ere!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KVO378tjsw
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 30, 2019, 11:25:14 AM
Stewart Lee is a comedy genius.

An old clip but still a good one.

Stewart Lee on UKIP & the bloody immigrants, comin' over 'ere!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KVO378tjsw

I found this funny- not original though. Many years ago at school we had this debate about  illegal immigration /asylum seeking. just about the open border time.

The 'for' speaker took to the floor and he did indeed mention all the previous people from various cultures coming here for a better life and going further back to all other 'invasions'  (his word choice -not mine!) to the Romans and before.  It was very interesting all his facts and figures he did do his research.  However, he lost the debate.

And the reason was: Firstly, I pointed out the difference between asylum seeker and illegal immigrant.

Asylum seeker must report to the first port of call and claim asylum- they must produce evidence of their claims. The UK is an island therefore we are not the nearest safety port! An illegal immigrant is someone who will sneak in break the many laws as they can including slavery  in all its forms.(Yes, I know some still apologise for the black African slaves-turn a blind eye to the recent ones eastern europe in particular.) The black market and dark

 I pointed out about what really happened during these 'invasions' the rape, murder,pillaging, torture,enforcing their culture and religeon upon the indigenous population, insideously taking over towns and villages, enforcing their will-enslaving many.   However, they came and conquered in a different way from the' open border' policy.  This is a war we will not win- when we do now know who thry are or where they are. Due to human rights and other protections they lie under. If they wanted  a job/house and security thy can do what Australians and Canadians and other  people do- apply for job-find housing come here and settle. Learn language is very important.

Now, having witnessed the huge increase in large Asian communities becoming politically powerful and pushing out indigenous people who beome subservant, and compliant to their will and beliefs in some cases. read about the many changes in law to accommodate this 'invasion' buzz words like rascist- islamophobic etc Their political leaders now have powerful influence to incorporate their religous ideaology, they threaten. murder those who dare to stand against them. In Germany and this country the grooming for  sexual abuse and rape  reports-takes a back seat of importance to those who feel a rascist attack has occured. Can you see what I see.

That won a standing ovasion.  P.S My Asian (Afghanistan)boyfirend, who was my opposition ,also stood  to applaud.  You see it is OK to tell it like it is without being a rascist or islamophobe.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Baz on August 30, 2019, 12:59:43 PM
When did this debate happen just out of interest?

Quote
Asylum seeker must report to the first port of call and claim asylum

Must they? Says who? What if the first port is just another place that has similar issues to those they are fleeing?

Quote
The UK is an island therefore we are not the nearest safety port!

So we should accept no asylum seekers at all? We should not help anyone in need? (And some people call this a Christian country!)

Quote
An illegal immigrant is someone who will sneak in break the many laws as they can

Wow... think you're showing your own prejudices there. As you yourself have pointed out that one of the problems we have with illegal immigrants is tracking them, knowing who they are etc I'd love to see your sources that every illegal immigrant breaks as many laws as they can. Or was this the sort of debate where you could just stand up and say whatever you want without any supporting facts?

Quote
I pointed out about what really happened during these 'invasions' the rape, murder,pillaging, torture,enforcing their culture and religeon upon the indigenous population, insideously taking over towns and villages, enforcing their will-enslaving many.


Sounds like the history of colonial England.   

Quote
If they wanted  a job/house and security thy can do what Australians and Canadians and other  people do- apply for job-find housing come here and settle. Learn language is very important.

There is actually an Eu directive that allows us to repatriate those that after 3 months do not have the ability to support themselves like a job etc. We just don't use it. We have this ability to do so whilst in the EU.

Quote
Now, having witnessed the huge increase in large Asian communities becoming politically powerful and pushing out indigenous people who beome subservant, and compliant to their will and beliefs in some cases

Where has this happened please? I can't think of anywhere that only 'Asian' communities are allowed to live in. And yet you claim there to have been a huge increase in this?

Quote
Their political leaders now have powerful influence to incorporate their religous ideaology, they threaten. murder those who dare to stand against them.


Are you saying that in this country has political leaders with powerful influence that threaten and murder those opposed to them. Think I'd like proof for that too please.


Quote
That won a standing ovasion.

Are you sure this debate took place at school and not at a Britain First or UKIP rally. 

Quote
P.S My Asian (Afghanistan)boyfirend, who was my opposition ,also stood  to applaud.

Why the hell was your Afghan boyfriend doing in this country? There are so many more safe ports between here and there. I hope you checked his papers were in order before becoming involved.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 30, 2019, 02:04:15 PM
When did this debate happen just out of interest?

Must they? Says who? What if the first port is just another place that has similar issues to those they are fleeing?

So we should accept no asylum seekers at all? We should not help anyone in need? (And some people call this a Christian country!)

Wow... think you're showing your own prejudices there. As you yourself have pointed out that one of the problems we have with illegal immigrants is tracking them, knowing who they are etc I'd love to see your sources that every illegal immigrant breaks as many laws as they can. Or was this the sort of debate where you could just stand up and say whatever you want without any supporting facts?
 

Sounds like the history of colonial England.   

There is actually an Eu directive that allows us to repatriate those that after 3 months do not have the ability to support themselves like a job etc. We just don't use it. We have this ability to do so whilst in the EU.

Where has this happened please? I can't think of anywhere that only 'Asian' communities are allowed to live in. And yet you claim there to have been a huge increase in this?
 

Are you saying that in this country has political leaders with powerful influence that threaten and murder those opposed to them. Think I'd like proof for that too please.


Are you sure this debate took place at school and not at a Britain First or UKIP rally. 

Why the hell was your Afghan boyfriend doing in this country? There are so many more safe ports between here and there. I hope you checked his papers were in order before becoming involved.

What a pathetic attempt to attack.  You have taken what I have said way out of context- sure sign of a losing post.
 
I have never been nor would I attend anything political by any party!

The debate attended by a very mixed audience. My afghan boyfriend- now my husband!  saw members of his family  and community*punished* tortured by the taliban for not being the right kind of muslim. He was found half dead as a child by the British. He became an interpreter and map assistant.
He went through the correct legal route.  However some of the torturers are living here under the asylum laws.
You have absolutely no idea what is going on around you. So best you stay in your bubble.

He is very happy to talk  about the slave trade/  fored marriges in the UK/taliban ilfiltration/eastern european drug and sex slaver trade and the illegal immigrants from Asian coutries with neferious intentions. 

But not to you, as he sees you as a collaberator by being in denial.
 There are many laws being broken the first one is:


Now why don't you just come right out and call me a liar and say those things do not happen and that the muslim council of Great Britain does not demand consession or special treatment and demand that sharia law is first port of call.
 Imans can attend medical examinations of their females. Abortions can be demanded under the 'mental health act' as having a female  child born is costly to a family in certain cultures. And having two wives and marrying your first cousin is  not allowed in the UK, but  eyes are turned away.


However, back here in Scotland, and the here and now let us have a wee look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDhYxVGTpgo


Enjoy!  its a great laugh you will love it... and call them all liars!

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Baz on August 30, 2019, 03:24:31 PM
What a pathetic attempt to attack.  You have taken what I have said way out of context- sure sign of a losing post.
 
I have never been nor would I attend anything political by any party!

The debate attended by a very mixed audience. My afghan boyfriend- now my husband!  saw members of his family  and community*punished* tortured by the taliban for not being the right kind of muslim. He was found half dead as a child by the British. He became an interpreter and map assistant.
He went through the correct legal route.  However some of the torturers are living here under the asylum laws.
You have absolutely no idea what is going on around you. So best you stay in your bubble.

He is very happy to talk  about the slave trade/  fored marriges in the UK/taliban ilfiltration/eastern european drug and sex slaver trade and the illegal immigrants from Asian coutries with neferious intentions. 

But not to you, as he sees you as a collaberator by being in denial.
 There are many laws being broken the first one is:
  • entering illegally! 
     selling sex for money
      sham marriages
      drug offenses 
     people trafficking   
    bombing citizens
    attacking citizens
    threatening to kill authors of books
    money laundering
    selling children for sex
    forcing FGM to be performed
    grooming children for sex abuse.


Now why don't you just come right out and call me a liar and say those things do not happen and that the muslim council of Great Britain does not demand consession or special treatment and demand that sharia law is first port of call.
 Imans can attend medical examinations of their females. Abortions can be demanded under the 'mental health act' as having a female  child born is costly to a family in certain cultures. And having two wives and marrying your first cousin is  not allowed in the UK, but  eyes are turned away.


However, back here in Scotland, and the here and now let us have a wee look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDhYxVGTpgo


Enjoy!  its a great laugh you will love it... and call them all liars!

I wasn't attacking. I'm not sure I have taken what you said out of context at all but I certainly didn't mean to attack you.

The BNP/UKIP rally line was purely sarcasm, as was you checking your boyfriend's papers. Sarcasm is a very British trait, I might point out.

I did however notice that you didn't actually address any of my questions or rebuttals.

I'm sorry your husband sees me in that way. Harsh, considering we have never met, but I'm genuinely glad he managed to survive the horrors of his early life and has managed to find a country willing to take him in and give him a new start. I honestly love that. THAT sort of thing is what makes ME proud to be British. We are in a privileged position, relative to many countries in the world, and so are in a position to help those in need. And we do.

Now, of course all of those crimes are true and have all been committed by some illegal immigrants. You, however, seemed to suggest that all illegal immigrants are here to commit as many of these crimes as possible. Tarnishing a large number of people with no evidence. Some of which (and I would argue probably most, but that is my liberal prejudice showing) are just here for a better life with no evil intentions at all. I would also point out that a lot of legal migrants have committed crimes from this list but you don't assume they are ALL committing these crimes (as you married one!) and in fact these crimes have been committed natural born British folk too but you don't tarnish all of us with the same brush.

Obviously there are instances of illegal immigrants doing horrible things but just because one right wing nutter killed a politician, I don't personally believe that all right leaning people are nutters. Does that make sense?

The Muslim Council is not something I know a great deal about. What it has to do with illegal immigrants and Brexit is lost on me.

I don't have time to watch the documentary right now I'm afraid but thanks for sharing. It looks like it's a bout people trafficking. But I'm willing to assume that it would make me angry and hate filled about the people committing the crimes but still not assume that everyone of their background is committing the crime.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 30, 2019, 06:30:04 PM
What a pathetic attempt to attack.  You have taken what I have said way out of context- sure sign of a losing post.
 
I have never been nor would I attend anything political by any party!

The debate attended by a very mixed audience. My afghan boyfriend- now my husband!  saw members of his family  and community*punished* tortured by the taliban for not being the right kind of muslim. He was found half dead as a child by the British. He became an interpreter and map assistant.
He went through the correct legal route.  However some of the torturers are living here under the asylum laws.
You have absolutely no idea what is going on around you. So best you stay in your bubble.

He is very happy to talk  about the slave trade/  fored marriges in the UK/taliban ilfiltration/eastern european drug and sex slaver trade and the illegal immigrants from Asian coutries with neferious intentions. 

But not to you, as he sees you as a collaberator by being in denial.
 There are many laws being broken the first one is:
  • entering illegally! 
     selling sex for money
      sham marriages
      drug offenses 
     people trafficking   
    bombing citizens
    attacking citizens
    threatening to kill authors of books
    money laundering
    selling children for sex
    forcing FGM to be performed
    grooming children for sex abuse.


Now why don't you just come right out and call me a liar and say those things do not happen and that the muslim council of Great Britain does not demand consession or special treatment and demand that sharia law is first port of call.
 Imans can attend medical examinations of their females. Abortions can be demanded under the 'mental health act' as having a female  child born is costly to a family in certain cultures. And having two wives and marrying your first cousin is  not allowed in the UK, but  eyes are turned away.


However, back here in Scotland, and the here and now let us have a wee look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDhYxVGTpgo


Enjoy!  its a great laugh you will love it... and call them all liars!
Your boyfriend was found half-dead by the British, became an interpreter and map reader - was that before or after he came to Britain to attend school and get on the debating team?  Was he already fluent in English by the time he was found half dead?  Why was he half dead and where were his parents?  It all sounds rather curious to me...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 31, 2019, 02:19:39 PM
I wasn't attacking. I'm not sure I have taken what you said out of context at all but I certainly didn't mean to attack you.

The BNP/UKIP rally line was purely sarcasm, as was you checking your boyfriend's papers. Sarcasm is a very British trait, I might point out.

I did however notice that you didn't actually address any of my questions or rebuttals.

I'm sorry your husband sees me in that way. Harsh, considering we have never met, but I'm genuinely glad he managed to survive the horrors of his early life and has managed to find a country willing to take him in and give him a new start. I honestly love that. THAT sort of thing is what makes ME proud to be British. We are in a privileged position, relative to many countries in the world, and so are in a position to help those in need. And we do.

Now, of course all of those crimes are true and have all been committed by some illegal immigrants. You, however, seemed to suggest that all illegal immigrants are here to commit as many of these crimes as possible. Tarnishing a large number of people with no evidence. Some of which (and I would argue probably most, but that is my liberal prejudice showing) are just here for a better life with no evil intentions at all. I would also point out that a lot of legal migrants have committed crimes from this list but you don't assume they are ALL committing these crimes (as you married one!) and in fact these crimes have been committed natural born British folk too but you don't tarnish all of us with the same brush.

Obviously there are instances of illegal immigrants doing horrible things but just because one right wing nutter killed a politician, I don't personally believe that all right leaning people are nutters. Does that make sense?

The Muslim Council is not something I know a great deal about. What it has to do with illegal immigrants and Brexit is lost on me.

I don't have time to watch the documentary right now I'm afraid but thanks for sharing. It looks like it's a bout people trafficking. But I'm willing to assume that it would make me angry and hate filled about the people committing the crimes but still not assume that everyone of their background is committing the crime.

Hi Baz, certainly seemed like an attack. It is ok though because I have been fighting for uncomfortable issues to be addresssed by certain communities,only to be called a rascist and a nazi. Hence why my husband has no interest in jousting with online personas as he has been called islamophobic fascist himself by highlighting issues. By ignorat lefties I have to say.   You may have forgotten the London bombings? are you aware many more attacks have been thwarted?

You just go on being defensive and welcoming  people you do not know, and we can both laugh it off. So what does being British mean exactly? That question is so diffcult as  wee have got to bring in culture and there are many which go against the greain of what was once perceieved as being British.


In reply to any 'curious' posters. My husband was found half dead 10 months old he could walk talk and speak 15 languages at 11 months, he did the interpreting and mapping 2 days before his 1st Birthday, all this while his parents were enjoying a few drinks in a local Tapas restaurant...

Some ignoramuses hate Germans  and believe they all played a part in the slaughter of innocents, Some Germans risked their lives by helping and assisting those hunted by the Nazis. they also assisted with spying and other work for the allies.  The same is happening on the middle east. some online personas don't believe it. I laugh it off at their proud stance of ignorance.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on August 31, 2019, 05:50:52 PM
Hi Baz, certainly seemed like an attack. It is ok though because I have been fighting for uncomfortable issues to be addresssed by certain communities,only to be called a rascist and a nazi. Hence why my husband has no interest in jousting with online personas as he has been called islamophobic fascist himself by highlighting issues. By ignorat lefties I have to say.   You may have forgotten the London bombings? are you aware many more attacks have been thwarted?

You just go on being defensive and welcoming  people you do not know, and we can both laugh it off. So what does being British mean exactly? That question is so diffcult as  wee have got to bring in culture and there are many which go against the greain of what was once perceieved as being British.


In reply to any 'curious' posters. My husband was found half dead 10 months old he could walk talk and speak 15 languages at 11 months, he did the interpreting and mapping 2 days before his 1st Birthday, all this while his parents were enjoying a few drinks in a local Tapas restaurant...

Some ignoramuses hate Germans  and believe they all played a part in the slaughter of innocents, Some Germans risked their lives by helping and assisting those hunted by the Nazis. they also assisted with spying and other work for the allies.  The same is happening on the middle east. some online personas don't believe it. I laugh it off at their proud stance of ignorance.
Well that was a load of nonsense from start to finish, IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2019, 09:01:14 AM
Excellent comment by a reader in today’s Sunday Times -

There’s just so many fundamental contradictions with the Govt’s current position. Leave or remain - please tell me where I am wrong on this?

They guaranteed the rights of EU citizens would be protected. They have now implemented a policy that contradicts that position. They intend to end FoM on 31.10.19. And yet the UK is the country whose citizens have taken the greatest advantage of FoM with more of us living in EU states than any other EU nation. All EU nations have stated they will mirror our FoM response. The more draconian we are, the more draconian they will be. We are on the brink of losing hundreds of thousands of economic contributors and critical workforce and replacing them with repatriated Retirees drawing on state health and social care.

They talked about a positive relationship with the EU in 2016. Their stated actions of no-Deal will economically harm EU27. Moreover by demonising the EU and seeking to cast blame they are souring / destroy lasting relationships with the EU with whom we will need to rebuild a beneficial trading relationship. No Deal is not an end, it is a beginning. The manner of our EU Exit simply sets the tone and ground-rules for our ongoing relationship and our Govt actions appear to be the equivalent of salting the earth.

They intend to massively increase public sector spending after years of austerity at a point when there is both a general global downturn and all economic modelling states a consequence of a disorderly Exit will be exceptionally low / zero growth, increased unemployment and a reduction in tax income. So the policy must be to increase borrowing and debt.

Where is the rationality in these policies?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2019, 10:37:53 AM
Excellent comment by a reader in today’s Sunday Times -

There’s just so many fundamental contradictions with the Govt’s current position. Leave or remain - please tell me where I am wrong on this?

They guaranteed the rights of EU citizens would be protected. They have now implemented a policy that contradicts that position. They intend to end FoM on 31.10.19. And yet the UK is the country whose citizens have taken the greatest advantage of FoM with more of us living in EU states than any other EU nation. All EU nations have stated they will mirror our FoM response. The more draconian we are, the more draconian they will be. We are on the brink of losing hundreds of thousands of economic contributors and critical workforce and replacing them with repatriated Retirees drawing on state health and social care.

They talked about a positive relationship with the EU in 2016. Their stated actions of no-Deal will economically harm EU27. Moreover by demonising the EU and seeking to cast blame they are souring / destroy lasting relationships with the EU with whom we will need to rebuild a beneficial trading relationship. No Deal is not an end, it is a beginning. The manner of our EU Exit simply sets the tone and ground-rules for our ongoing relationship and our Govt actions appear to be the equivalent of salting the earth.

They intend to massively increase public sector spending after years of austerity at a point when there is both a general global downturn and all economic modelling states a consequence of a disorderly Exit will be exceptionally low / zero growth, increased unemployment and a reduction in tax income. So the policy must be to increase borrowing and debt.

Where is the rationality in these policies?

The Conservative Party rational? Isn't that asking too much? Was selling off our council housing and our publicly owned utilities rational? Was the Poll Tax rational? Has it been rational to plunge thousands of families into poverty and to cut our public services to the bone recently?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2019, 11:18:41 AM
The Conservative Party rational? Isn't that asking too much? Was selling off our council housing and our publicly owned utilities rational? Was the Poll Tax rational? Has it been rational to plunge thousands of families into poverty and to cut our public services to the bone recently?
I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but the knight in shining armour who is riding us all towards the sunny uplands of a no-deal Brexit has been a member of the conservative government for some time now, as were Theresa May and that Esther McVey woman you seemed to admire so much.  Amazed that you recognise thst plunging thousands of families into poverty is irrational seeing as how you’re so keen on Brexit and don’t think the economy matters that much.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2019, 03:08:48 PM
I’m not sure if you’ve noticed, but the knight in shining armour who is riding us all towards the sunny uplands of a no-deal Brexit has been a member of the conservative government for some time now, as were Theresa May and that Esther McVey woman you seemed to admire so much.  Amazed that you recognise thst plunging thousands of families into poverty is irrational seeing as how you’re so keen on Brexit and don’t think the economy matters that much.

My you do assume and exaggerate imo.

At least this time it will be the Electorate's fault rather than the Conservative's fault!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2019, 03:13:57 PM
My you do assume and exaggerate imo.

At least this time it will be the Electorate's fault rather than the Conservative's fault!
Which bit was an exaggeration?  It will still be the he Conservatives fault - from start to finish, it’s their mess completely.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2019, 07:58:54 PM
Which bit was an exaggeration?  It will still be the he Conservatives fault - from start to finish, it’s their mess completely.

They are carrying out the wishes of the electorate, who voted to get out of the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 01, 2019, 08:32:17 PM
They are carrying out the wishes of the electorate, who voted to get out of the EU.
The fault is the Conservatives completely.  Dave caved in to.the extreme EU sceptics in his party and called a referendum.  Bad move, IMO, as at the time of the referendum many voting did not really understand the pros and cons properly. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2019, 07:16:58 AM
“The first duty of an MP is to do what he [or she] thinks … is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate.”

Winston Churchill
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2019, 07:32:25 AM
The fault is the Conservatives completely.  Dave caved in to.the extreme EU sceptics in his party and called a referendum.  Bad move, IMO, as at the time of the referendum many voting did not really understand the [ censored word ] and cons properly.

They knew what they wanted and they voted for it. Only to be called stupid or too old by know-it-all commentators. Just because some people are able to air their opinions in the media it doesn't make those opinions correct.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2019, 07:58:13 AM
“The first duty of an MP is to do what he [or she] thinks … is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate.”

Winston Churchill

Nobody knows which side of the argument Churchill would have been on. Would he have signed the Maastrict Treaty? He supported the idea of a United States of Europe, but he didn't include Britain; "We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations" he said in 1946.
Churchill, Winston (1946). Speech to the Academic Youth (Speech). Zürich, Switzerland.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2019, 07:58:50 AM
They knew what they wanted and they voted for it. Only to be called stupid or too old by know-it-all commentators. Just because some people are able to air their opinions in the media it doesn't make those opinions correct.
Oh really?  So when I say I know why the people voted for Brexit I’m ridiculed and asked for cites repeatedly but when you say the people knew what they were voting for then thst’s a fact is it?  OK, whatever you say Boss.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2019, 08:00:11 AM
Nobody knows which side of the argument Churchill would have been on. Would he have signed the Maastrict Treaty? He supported the idea of a United States of Europe, but he didn't include Britain; "We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations" he said in 1946.
Churchill, Winston (1946). Speech to the Academic Youth (Speech). Zürich, Switzerland.
Which side he would have been on has nothing to do with the quote I posted.  I guess as far as you are concerned the silly old fool got it wrong on this occasion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2019, 08:21:26 AM
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-theresa-may-leave-voters-remain-eu-referendum-campaign-deal-a8740526.html

The British public still have no idea what they voted for with Brexit – it’s not elitist to admit it
Inviting a largely uninformed public to make a judgement on something as unfathomably complex as EU membership was akin to asking a six-year-old to perform brain surgery – with a crayon

Otto EnglishTuesday 22 January 2019 14:39
In the run up to the 2016 EU referendum I campaigned for Stronger IN on the streets of South London. I’d never canvassed before and it was a disquieting experience. As I trudged through Lewisham handing out flyers, it became horribly apparent that most of those who I stopped to talk to didn’t understand what the hell was going on.

Some asked me to explain it. Others told me they were “voting for Boris”. One guy took my arm and informed me that “chaos is good so I’m voting for chaos”. One of my children’s teachers – who I bumped into by the station – asked me which way she should vote. When I told her I was backing Remain, she stared at me blankly and asked if that was “in or out?”

But it was the older woman who engaged me in the market on a busy Saturday afternoon that really made me realise that our cause was doomed: “I don’t want to join the EU.” She told me. I started to explain that we were already in the EU, the referendum was about leaving it or remaining and when I took out my phone to prove my point she stopped me in my tracks and repeated very deliberately: “No. I’m sorry I’ve made my mind up. I don’t care about that. I’m voting against.” And that was the end of that.

The uncomfortable truth is that whether you voted Remain or Leave in June 2016 you probably voted emotionally. Very few people understood it. Inviting a largely uninformed public to make a judgement on something as unfathomably complex as our membership of the EU was akin to asking a six-year-old to perform delicate brain surgery – with a crayon.

 Brexit deal vote: Opposing groups of protesters gather by parliament

Show all 20
 
And it's not just Brexit. Most people simply do not fathom politics. Most have no understanding of concepts like pooled sovereignty, or how net migration works, or what first past the post is, or how our unwritten constitution functions. Many, frankly, don’t even care. Why should they?

In a parliamentary democracy we elect politicians to make important decisions on our behalf. That’s how the system has functioned for decades and also why the British have traditionally astutely avoided referendums – which reduce perplexingly multifaceted matters to a binary choice. Thatcher famously called referendums the tools of “demagogues and dictators” – but they are more than that. They are a dangerous capitulation of responsibility by the executive to an electorate less equipped to make judgements than they.

Forget the “people’s will” – all evidence demonstrates that the “people’s ignorance” is staggering. Around half of adults don’t know who their MP is while just 11 per cent can name one of their MEPs. A survey carried out in the run up to the 2015 general election revealed that 69 per cent of Britons confessed to having “no interest in politics” while a staggering 59 per cent couldn’t even name the then-prime minister, David Cameron.

And yet we are told daily that the “people understood what they were voting for”. That sacred result – delivered by the hallowed 52 per cent one day in June 2016 – now dictates the course of this nation’s destiny. The British public might be cheerfully ignorant of the mechanisms of politics but put them in a polling station and they are apparently transformed into a master race of all knowing super beings who can do no wrong – and whose will must be delivered at all costs.

Do most British people really understand the backstop? Of course not. What WTO rules mean? No. Who genuinely comprehends the difference between the Norwegian or Canadian models? What percentage of the British population has sat down to read Theresa May’s deal, or even the abstract? I certainly haven’t – have you?

Support free-thinking journalism and subscribe to Independent Minds
Say any of this, dare to imply that the majority simply don’t get any of it whatsoever and you are accused of being an elitist who thinks that the people are stupid. That is why nobody in public life dares to say it. The people aren’t stupid. Far from it. They have better things to do than acquaint themselves with the intricacies of the Maastricht treaty. But their obliviousness is being abused.

The awful truth is that while most people don’t understand what the hell is going on, that lack of knowledge is being used against them by Jacob Rees-Mogg, Farage and friends in the furtherance of their own nebulous cause.

It’s time for a little more honesty. Let’s be frank. Nobody understands what the hell is going on.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 02, 2019, 10:15:01 AM
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-theresa-may-leave-voters-remain-eu-referendum-campaign-deal-a8740526.html

The British public still have no idea what they voted for with Brexit – it’s not elitist to admit it
Inviting a largely uninformed public to make a judgement on something as unfathomably complex as EU membership was akin to asking a six-year-old to perform brain surgery – with a crayon

Otto EnglishTuesday 22 January 2019 14:39
In the run up to the 2016 EU referendum I campaigned for Stronger IN on the streets of South London. I’d never canvassed before and it was a disquieting experience. As I trudged through Lewisham handing out flyers, it became horribly apparent that most of those who I stopped to talk to didn’t understand what the hell was going on.

Some asked me to explain it. Others told me they were “voting for Boris”. One guy took my arm and informed me that “chaos is good so I’m voting for chaos”. One of my children’s teachers – who I bumped into by the station – asked me which way she should vote. When I told her I was backing Remain, she stared at me blankly and asked if that was “in or out?”

But it was the older woman who engaged me in the market on a busy Saturday afternoon that really made me realise that our cause was doomed: “I don’t want to join the EU.” She told me. I started to explain that we were already in the EU, the referendum was about leaving it or remaining and when I took out my phone to prove my point she stopped me in my tracks and repeated very deliberately: “No. I’m sorry I’ve made my mind up. I don’t care about that. I’m voting against.” And that was the end of that.

The uncomfortable truth is that whether you voted Remain or Leave in June 2016 you probably voted emotionally. Very few people understood it. Inviting a largely uninformed public to make a judgement on something as unfathomably complex as our membership of the EU was akin to asking a six-year-old to perform delicate brain surgery – with a crayon.

 Brexit deal vote: Opposing groups of protesters gather by parliament

Show all 20
 
And it's not just Brexit. Most people simply do not fathom politics. Most have no understanding of concepts like pooled sovereignty, or how net migration works, or what first past the post is, or how our unwritten constitution functions. Many, frankly, don’t even care. Why should they?

In a parliamentary democracy we elect politicians to make important decisions on our behalf. That’s how the system has functioned for decades and also why the British have traditionally astutely avoided referendums – which reduce perplexingly multifaceted matters to a binary choice. Thatcher famously called referendums the tools of “demagogues and dictators” – but they are more than that. They are a dangerous capitulation of responsibility by the executive to an electorate less equipped to make judgements than they.

Forget the “people’s will” – all evidence demonstrates that the “people’s ignorance” is staggering. Around half of adults don’t know who their MP is while just 11 per cent can name one of their MEPs. A survey carried out in the run up to the 2015 general election revealed that 69 per cent of Britons confessed to having “no interest in politics” while a staggering 59 per cent couldn’t even name the then-prime minister, David Cameron.

And yet we are told daily that the “people understood what they were voting for”. That sacred result – delivered by the hallowed 52 per cent one day in June 2016 – now dictates the course of this nation’s destiny. The British public might be cheerfully ignorant of the mechanisms of politics but put them in a polling station and they are apparently transformed into a master race of all knowing super beings who can do no wrong – and whose will must be delivered at all costs.

Do most British people really understand the backstop? Of course not. What WTO rules mean? No. Who genuinely comprehends the difference between the Norwegian or Canadian models? What percentage of the British population has sat down to read Theresa May’s deal, or even the abstract? I certainly haven’t – have you?

Support free-thinking journalism and subscribe to Independent Minds
Say any of this, dare to imply that the majority simply don’t get any of it whatsoever and you are accused of being an elitist who thinks that the people are stupid. That is why nobody in public life dares to say it. The people aren’t stupid. Far from it. They have better things to do than acquaint themselves with the intricacies of the Maastricht treaty. But their obliviousness is being abused.

The awful truth is that while most people don’t understand what the hell is going on, that lack of knowledge is being used against them by Jacob Rees-Mogg, Farage and friends in the furtherance of their own nebulous cause.

It’s time for a little more honesty. Let’s be frank. Nobody understands what the hell is going on.

So he campaigned for Remain, but admits he doesn't fully understand all the details.  Perhaps we should do away with voting on anything, as we're all so ignorant?

What has become clear is that voting for an MP and letting them make decisions for us has been shown to be unsatisfactory. Most of them had no more knowledge about the issues than we did, but had been happily going along with greater integration nevertheless.

In my opinion a lot of MP's are far more interested in their own careers than they are in the 'good of the country'. Faced with being sacked, will the Conservative remainers chose career or country? That will be interesting.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 02, 2019, 10:49:11 AM
So he campaigned for Remain, but admits he doesn't fully understand all the details.  Perhaps we should do away with voting on anything, as we're all so ignorant?

What has become clear is that voting for an MP and letting them make decisions for us has been shown to be unsatisfactory. Most of them had no more knowledge about the issues than we did, but had been happily going along with greater integration nevertheless.

In my opinion a lot of MP's are far more interested in their own careers than they are in the 'good of the country'. Faced with being sacked, will the Conservative remainers chose career or country? That will be interesting.

Interesting remark, but the same is true via the whip system for all parties, isn't it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 02, 2019, 04:02:28 PM
So he campaigned for Remain, but admits he doesn't fully understand all the details.  Perhaps we should do away with voting on anything, as we're all so ignorant?

What has become clear is that voting for an MP and letting them make decisions for us has been shown to be unsatisfactory. Most of them had no more knowledge about the issues than we did, but had been happily going along with greater integration nevertheless.

In my opinion a lot of MP's are far more interested in their own careers than they are in the 'good of the country'. Faced with being sacked, will the Conservative remainers chose career or country? That will be interesting.
It’s a shame May didn’t threaten to sack all the Tory rebels when she was in charge, IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 02, 2019, 05:31:26 PM
It’s a shame May didn’t threaten to sack all the Tory rebels when she was in charge, IMO.

What about Cameron's responsibility in all this mess?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 03, 2019, 11:22:53 AM
If any of the mods are around, I submitted a thread on Operation Yellowhammer, which is still awaiting approval. Ta.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: mrswah on September 03, 2019, 11:52:56 AM
If any of the mods are around, I submitted a thread on Operation Yellowhammer, which is still awaiting approval. Ta.


Apologies Carana!   Now approved.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 03, 2019, 06:11:28 PM

Apologies Carana!   Now approved.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2019, 06:10:12 PM
I’ve run out of popcorn. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 04, 2019, 06:45:18 PM
Haha, David Aaronovitch:

“It comes down to this: the only real choice in the real world is Johnson or Corbyn, or no-deal or Corbyn. You may want a quiet, decent life but you’re going to have to choose between catching leprosy or catching rabies. There is no other option”

Personally if I had to choose it would be leprosy. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 08, 2019, 07:29:44 AM
"Resignations to chase headlines won't change the fact that people want Brexit done so that government can deliver on the domestic priorities people care about like more police, new hospitals and great schools."
https://news.sky.com/story/amber-rudd-quits-cabinet-in-new-setback-to-boris-johnson-11804677

Erm, the government could have been well advanced in pursuing those priorities before it suddenly came down with shoot-in-foot-itis.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 12, 2019, 07:27:38 AM
While the poor will be disproportionately affected (cf Yellowhammer),  disaster capitalists have made - and will continue to make -a killing, it seems.

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/brexit-disaster-capitalism-8-billion-bet-on-no-deal-crash-out-by-boris-johnsons-leave-backers/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 16, 2019, 10:38:04 AM
Not sure the Hulk analogy has gone down too well over the pond...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/15/eu-dismay-boris-johnson-compares-himself-to-hulk
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on September 16, 2019, 08:23:31 PM
BoJo's presser in Luxembourg went well. Shame he wasn't there...

As someone said, the Incredible Hulk turned into the Invisible Man.

Channel 4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo5uIqtUiWU
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 17, 2019, 08:52:37 PM
So he campaigned for Remain, but admits he doesn't fully understand all the details.  Perhaps we should do away with voting on anything, as we're all so ignorant?

What has become clear is that voting for an MP and letting them make decisions for us has been shown to be unsatisfactory. Most of them had no more knowledge about the issues than we did, but had been happily going along with greater integration nevertheless.

In my opinion a lot of MP's are far more interested in their own careers than they are in the 'good of the country'. Faced with being sacked, will the Conservative remainers chose career or country? That will be interesting.


"Perhaps we should do away with voting on anything, as we're all so ignorant? "


Now you are talking! how true that statement is!

This is a great  educational video if you have time to watch- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo  you can skip to 1:45

This is also educational -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc8Zj8

If you do  not like my posts  you will not like these!

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2019, 08:46:22 AM

"Perhaps we should do away with voting on anything, as we're all so ignorant? "


Now you are talking! how true that statement is!

This is a great  educational video if you have time to watch- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcGh1Dex4Yo  you can skip to 1:45

This is also educational -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc8Zj8

If you do  not like my posts  you will not like these!

Smoke and mirrors. How interesting that the French asked the US for their gold back, I didn't know that!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 18, 2019, 08:53:42 AM
So he campaigned for Remain, but admits he doesn't fully understand all the details.  Perhaps we should do away with voting on anything, as we're all so ignorant?

What has become clear is that voting for an MP and letting them make decisions for us has been shown to be unsatisfactory. Most of them had no more knowledge about the issues than we did, but had been happily going along with greater integration nevertheless.

In my opinion a lot of MP's are far more interested in their own careers than they are in the 'good of the country'. Faced with being sacked, will the Conservative remainers chose career or country? That will be interesting.
21 of them chose country.  Does that surprise you?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2019, 10:56:04 AM
21 of them chose country.  Does that surprise you?

Correction; they said they chose country.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 18, 2019, 11:23:09 AM
Correction; they said they chose country.
LOL.  And the fact that they were prepared to be sacked from their party tells you what exactly?  That they were putting their careers first?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2019, 01:50:46 PM
LOL.  And the fact that they were prepared to be sacked from their party tells you what exactly?  That they were putting their careers first?

It tells me that they're determined to stop Brexit at any cost. Whether they are as altruistic as they say they are I'm not convinced. They say they're worried about the suffering of the poor, but how many of them showed this concern in the face of deliberate Conservative policies making the poor poorer? They say they're worried about shortages of medicine, but they sat back and let NHS funding cuts take place. Job losses? Well, they allowed zero contract jobs to be used as a reason for taking people out of the unemployed statistics. Given their hypocricy I see no reason to think they care about others at all.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 18, 2019, 03:04:19 PM
It tells me that they're determined to stop Brexit at any cost. Whether they are as altruistic as they say they are I'm not convinced. They say they're worried about the suffering of the poor, but how many of them showed this concern in the face of deliberate Conservative policies making the poor poorer? They say they're worried about shortages of medicine, but they sat back and let NHS funding cuts take place. Job losses? Well, they allowed zero contract jobs to be used as a reason for taking people out of the unemployed statistics. Given their hypocricy I see no reason to think they care about others at all.
You're a funny one aren't you?   Why are they determined to stop Brexit "at any cost" including their own careers, in your view?  For their own benefit?  Perhaps you could explain how that works?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 18, 2019, 09:13:10 PM
It tells me that they're determined to stop Brexit at any cost. Whether they are as altruistic as they say they are I'm not convinced. They say they're worried about the suffering of the poor, but how many of them showed this concern in the face of deliberate Conservative policies making the poor poorer? They say they're worried about shortages of medicine, but they sat back and let NHS funding cuts take place. Job losses? Well, they allowed zero contract jobs to be used as a reason for taking people out of the unemployed statistics. Given their hypocricy I see no reason to think they care about others at all.


Have any of them given a valid reason for not carrying out the wishes of those who voted.  This is NOT a party whip issue this was a vote to answer a question. MP's are not  rulers of an empire  they are servants.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2019, 10:06:26 PM

Have any of them given a valid reason for not carrying out the wishes of those who voted.  This is NOT a party whip issue this was a vote to answer a question. MP's are not  rulers of an empire  they are servants.

They say they're elected representatives not delegates, but the two things aren't all that different. Trade Unions choose people to represent them too, but unless they try to deliver what their members want they won't last long.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on September 18, 2019, 10:11:08 PM
Nigel Farage walks into a pub and says, "I'll have a pint of beer please..." The barman pours a pint, then throws it all over Farage.

"What did you do that for?" says Farage, drenched to the skin.

"Because you're in a metaphor which illustrates the stupidity of asking for something but not stipulating how you fecking wanted it delivered, you frog-faced sniveling cant!"

"But I'm still thirsty, so I want a pint -- this time in a glass!" says Farage.

"You can't ask again!" said the barman.

"Why not?" snivelled Farage.

"Democracy." says the barman.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 23, 2019, 06:01:04 PM
They say they're elected representatives not delegates, but the two things aren't all that different. Trade Unions choose people to represent them too, but unless they try to deliver what their members want they won't last long.

It really only takes two great skills to accomplish harmony: Be a great listener and have great negotiation techniques.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 06, 2019, 02:49:49 PM
Perhaps a Brexiteer here could explain?
“It is all this stuff about 'regulatory divergence' which is so chilling.  Almost nobody who is sane is antagonistic to the single market and customs union - these massively benefit the UK and all the other countries dotted around outside the EU weep to imagine how their economies would be improved by this access.  Brexit people always point to Spain and Greece as counter-examples, but even in these cases they are staggeringly wealthier societies than they were a couple of generations back.

If we really are so self-hating that we want to stop having any further say in the running of our continent then OK let's leave.  It's stupid, but whatever.  We can leave while staying in the SM and CU. 

All the Labour supporters who are in favour of Brexit must ask themselves what it is about 'regulatory divergence' which is so attractive to those in the Tory party frantic to get us out, with 'no deal' if need be.  What do the financial backers of Johnson, Cummings, the ERG, etc think is so terrific about the opportunity to 'diverge'?

It doesn't matter if as a Labour MP you don't like the EU - if you vote with Johnson you are voting to betray your constituents as surely as if you directly voted to crash worker rights.  In a way this is built into wanting to leave: the 'friction' and damage created by not being in the SM and CU puts all UK exports at a clear disadvantage.  So how do you improve your costs?  Not, I would imagine, by much lower executive pay, but by squidging working conditions.

This is so blooming obvious I don't see why on Earth people like Frank Field even give Brexit the time of day.”
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 10, 2019, 07:55:43 PM
The EU can be compared to a bad marriage- which will end in a bad divorce- it always does!

Being wooed into a common market  was the begining like a woman is wooed into a relationship. then comes a treaty or two-  a marriage for the woman. Over time without realising the country is beint stripped little by little and  there are less freedoms and choices and the iron fist begind to be shaken... The battered and beaten women reaches a point where she knows she will be murdered by her husband and her children will suffer. bravely she seeks help and escapes. Not an easy descision when everyone is telling her what  a great husband she has, always polite, well mannered, hard working...blah blah blah, but they never lived her life with him so their opinions don't count. They don't see what she saw  why would they be affected?  The seperation is ugly and exhausting, the abusive husband does not want to let go of the best thing that ever happened to him..he fights dirty to keep a hold,pulling out all the favours from those who knew his real reasons as they were abusers themselves.

However, after a while the wife and children endure hardship for a while, but eventually they all find themselves free and happy to be unafraid of their father.

similarities I find with the EU situation.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 10, 2019, 11:35:51 PM
The EU can be compared to a bad marriage- which will end in a bad divorce- it always does!

Being wooed into a common market  was the begining like a woman is wooed into a relationship. then comes a treaty or two-  a marriage for the woman. Over time without realising the country is beint stripped little by little and  there are less freedoms and choices and the iron fist begind to be shaken... The battered and beaten women reaches a point where she knows she will be murdered by her husband and her children will suffer. bravely she seeks help and escapes. Not an easy descision when everyone is telling her what  a great husband she has, always polite, well mannered, hard working...blah blah blah, but they never lived her life with him so their opinions don't count. They don't see what she saw  why would they be affected?  The seperation is ugly and exhausting, the abusive husband does not want to let go of the best thing that ever happened to him..he fights dirty to keep a hold,pulling out all the favours from those who knew his real reasons as they were abusers themselves.

However, after a while the wife and children endure hardship for a while, but eventually they all find themselves free and happy to be unafraid of their father.

similarities I find with the EU situation.
LOL.  You see Great Britain as an abused and battered wife this last 40 years?!  Yet Brexiteers are always telling us what a strong and powerful country we are, an economic powerhouse, needed more than needing.  Go figure!!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on October 13, 2019, 08:47:36 AM
It really only takes two great skills to accomplish harmony: Be a great listener and have great negotiation techniques.

More Obama than Trump, perhaps.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on October 13, 2019, 08:53:18 AM
Empathy is a generally an underrated quality and especially so in the world of political strategy. People who enjoy gaming negotiations like to think in terms of ruthless self-interest. But when you lack empathy, that self-interest becomes harder to satisfy. Unless you understand your negotiating partner, you’ll find it harder to get what you want from them.

That foundational mistake is written into every sentence of a crucial memo from No 10 special adviser Dominic Cummings and sent to the Spectator magazine on Monday night. We don’t know it’s him of course. It was sent by “a contact in No 10”. But the length, lexicon and attitude of the writing indicates it could only ever have come from him.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/dominic-cummings-memo-reveals-contradictory-brexit-policy-with-demented-overtones-1.4044150
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on October 15, 2019, 04:34:39 PM
The EU can be compared to a bad marriage- which will end in a bad divorce- it always does!

Being wooed into a common market  was the begining like a woman is wooed into a relationship. then comes a treaty or two-  a marriage for the woman. Over time without realising the country is beint stripped little by little and  there are less freedoms and choices and the iron fist begind to be shaken... The battered and beaten women reaches a point where she knows she will be murdered by her husband and her children will suffer. bravely she seeks help and escapes. Not an easy descision when everyone is telling her what  a great husband she has, always polite, well mannered, hard working...blah blah blah, but they never lived her life with him so their opinions don't count. They don't see what she saw  why would they be affected?  The seperation is ugly and exhausting, the abusive husband does not want to let go of the best thing that ever happened to him..he fights dirty to keep a hold,pulling out all the favours from those who knew his real reasons as they were abusers themselves.

However, after a while the wife and children endure hardship for a while, but eventually they all find themselves free and happy to be unafraid of their father.

similarities I find with the EU situation.

I think you need to haul yourself into the 21St century... What an appallingly sexist post
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 15, 2019, 05:47:30 PM
From “Steve in Cambridge “ in today’s Times:

Mr Johnson's rhetoric is sounding horribly hollow. Do or die? Die in a ditch? Rubbish - and it's plain for all to see.

This is inevitable. The undeliverable sold by the incorrigible and bought by the gullible. Brexit is a mythical nirvana that doesn't exist in a global economy. Mr Johnson is a closet Remainer - he knows he can't deliver Brexit, and he doesn't want to.

It's the perfect time to choose sanity over political vanity. It's time to revoke - and it's time for us to get back to business, regain our lost reputation for pragmatism, optimism and it's time to dump Brexit once and for all.

He can dump Mr Cummings too - the poisonous would-be Rasputin who has soured relations with the rest of Europe, a sizeable chunk of the Tory Party and most of the country. Brexit was Bonkers. It's an Ex-Brexit. Dead.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Admin on October 15, 2019, 09:05:56 PM
From “Steve in Cambridge “ in today’s Times:

Mr Johnson's rhetoric is sounding horribly hollow. Do or die? Die in a ditch? Rubbish - and it's plain for all to see.

This is inevitable. The undeliverable sold by the incorrigible and bought by the gullible. Brexit is a mythical nirvana that doesn't exist in a global economy. Mr Johnson is a closet Remainer - he knows he can't deliver Brexit, and he doesn't want to.

It's the perfect time to choose sanity over political vanity. It's time to revoke - and it's time for us to get back to business, regain our lost reputation for pragmatism, optimism and it's time to dump Brexit once and for all.

He can dump Mr Cummings too - the poisonous would-be Rasputin who has soured relations with the rest of Europe, a sizeable chunk of the Tory Party and most of the country. Brexit was Bonkers. It's an Ex-Brexit. Dead.

Looks like we will know tomorrow one way or another.   ?>)()<
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 15, 2019, 09:38:50 PM
Looks like we will know tomorrow one way or another.   ?>)()<
I think we already know.  They are going to rewrap May’s deal in different pretty paper and hope noone notices.  The tw..s. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 16, 2019, 07:16:08 PM
I don't think Harmond will be able to claw back the billions he promised the EU  as a "gesture of good will"?

I do not see Bojo throwing money at them either.

We will see on 1st november if the sky does fall on top of us.



"I think you need to haul yourself into the 21St century... What an appallingly sexist post"

hahaha Davel typed this? what really? hahaha ok.

'Womans aid' and 'Women and Children First'and 'Speciialist Childrens services'  are people you have never heard of due to your manly 21st century take on abuse. keep your eyes closed- women don't need your masogynist take on their problems.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 16, 2019, 08:30:43 PM
How many billions will Boris have to to give the DUP as a bribe for their support for his awesome nothing at all  like Mrs May’s deal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on October 17, 2019, 10:51:13 AM
I don't think Harmond will be able to claw back the billions he promised the EU  as a "gesture of good will"?

I do not see Bojo throwing money at them either.

We will see on 1st november if the sky does fall on top of us.



"I think you need to haul yourself into the 21St century... What an appallingly sexist post"

hahaha Davel typed this? what really? hahaha ok.

'Womans aid' and 'Women and Children First'and 'Speciialist Childrens services'  are people you have never heard of due to your manly 21st century take on abuse. keep your eyes closed- women don't need your masogynist take on their problems.

its misogynist.........not masogynist....

I think you will find if you open your eyes that its not only women who suffer abuse....some of them dish it out...LOL
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 21, 2019, 06:41:36 PM
its misogynist.........not masogynist....

I think you will find if you open your eyes that its not only women who suffer abuse....some of them dish it out...LOL

Please accept my husbands apologies for that error, English isn't his first language- what is your excuse?

He is fluent in 3 Languages- some words he never uses can confuse him.  just call him a bloody racist.

I never made any claim that it was only females who suffered abuse. That makes your reply to my post as pathetic as you couldn't even understand a simple  comparison. Indeed your basic misunderstanding  of most posts is breathtaking.or deliberate.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 21, 2019, 09:00:17 PM
Please accept my husbands apologies for that error, English isn't his first language- what is your excuse?

He is fluent in 3 Languages- some words he never uses can confuse him.  just call him a bloody racist.

I never made any claim that it was only females who suffered abuse. That makes your reply to my post as pathetic as you couldn't even understand a simple  comparison. Indeed your basic misunderstanding  of most posts is breathtaking.or deliberate.
Are you dictating your posts to your husband now?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 23, 2019, 09:30:01 PM
For the benefit of new posters/readers.  5 people type posts when I get called to the phone.  I did mention this way back in the day on a thread discussing anonymity. Before Brenda L was 'outed by supporters'

For the grandmar watchers…… a get bizzy on the fone sumtimes
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 23, 2019, 10:16:14 PM
For the benefit of new posters/readers.  5 people type posts when I get called to the phone.  I did mention this way back in the day on a thread discussing anonymity. Before Brenda L was 'outed by supporters'

For the grandmar watchers…… a get bizzy on the fone sumtimes
If anybody understands this post perhaps they could explain it to me, thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Baz on October 28, 2019, 05:11:19 PM
If anybody understands this post perhaps they could explain it to me, thanks in advance.

I'll try as no one else has stepped up.

If Miss Taken has begun to write a post on this forum and is then interrupted by the phone, rather than have her post go unfinished, she calls a team of five people to finish it for her. I presume that this is because she is so knowledgeable and highly educated that it takes five people to even stand a chance to finish one of her posts.

I'm unclear how these five are summoned but I'm presuming it's some kind of Bat-signal type situation.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on October 28, 2019, 05:30:48 PM
I'll try as no one else has stepped up.

If Miss Taken has begun to write a post on this forum and is then interrupted by the phone, rather than have her post go unfinished, she calls a team of five people to finish it for her. I presume that this is because she is so knowledgeable and highly educated that it takes five people to even stand a chance to finish one of her posts.

I'm unclear how these five are summoned but I'm presuming it's some kind of Bat-signal type situation.
Crikey.  5 people to write that drivel?  She needs to employ some more people. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 04, 2019, 09:03:30 PM
LOL

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EK9EVoOXYAAIAX4?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2019, 07:14:46 AM
It's up to Boris now. Will he get Brexit done? Will the rest of the MP's and the 'experts' accept that people actually do want it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 13, 2019, 07:24:34 AM
It's up to Boris now. Will he get Brexit done? Will the rest of the MP's and the 'experts' accept that people actually do want it?
It’s going to be delicious watching him try - he won’t be able to blame parliament now.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2019, 08:36:00 AM
It’s going to be delicious watching him try - he won’t be able to blame parliament now.

He has his mandate. The frantic efforts to stop Brexit should now cease.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on December 13, 2019, 10:07:40 AM
It’s going to be delicious watching him try - he won’t be able to blame parliament now.

Results here were particularly delicious to watch !
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on December 13, 2019, 11:04:25 AM
Results here were particularly delicious to watch !

I've been up all night having a feast.  Blimmin Hell.  Beyond my wildest dreams.

But I do have to say that my thoughts are more concerned with Revenge.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: barrier on December 13, 2019, 12:00:24 PM
Results here were particularly delicious to watch !


We've waited over three yrs for the brexit to happen,I'm sure the Scots can be as patient at waiting.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2019, 01:41:54 PM

We've waited over three yrs for the brexit to happen,I'm sure the Scots can be as patient at waiting.

I think they'll have to be. Boris isn't going to give them a referendum imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on December 13, 2019, 04:22:05 PM
I think they'll have to be. Boris isn't going to give them a referendum imo.

Does he have the final word on whether Scotland has the right to self determination?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 13, 2019, 04:55:50 PM

I want to see a hard border between England & Scotland.

Please, take your independence, stay in the EU, accept all the migrants & keep your heroin addicts & alcoholics on your side of the border. You're welcome.

 *&(+(+
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 13, 2019, 05:01:37 PM
Does he have the final word on whether Scotland has the right to self determination?

Boris Johnson has ruled out granting permission for a second vote on Scottish independence while he is prime minister.

Mr Johnson said his government would not give the go-ahead for another legally-binding referendum.

The Tory leader claimed the issue had been settled in a "once-in-a-generation" vote in 2014.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50280817
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on December 13, 2019, 05:05:04 PM
Boris Johnson has ruled out granting permission for a second vote on Scottish independence while he is prime minister.

Mr Johnson said his government would not give the go-ahead for another legally-binding referendum.

The Tory leader claimed the issue had been settled in a "once-in-a-generation" vote in 2014.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50280817

Six years ago and so much has altered since then.
However he can continue to ignore the growing wish for independence.
I actually do hope he does.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 13, 2019, 05:37:45 PM
He has his mandate. The frantic efforts to stop Brexit should now cease.
Of course.  The easy bit happens next month, it’s what happens afterwards that will be interesting to watch.  It will all end  in tears, it always does.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Admin on December 13, 2019, 07:16:11 PM
Let's keep the discussion constructive please.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on December 13, 2019, 07:21:17 PM
I want to see a hard border between England & Scotland.

Please, take your independence, stay in the EU, accept all the migrants & keep your heroin addicts & alcoholics on your side of the border. You're welcome.

 *&(+(+

FTAO Admin.
This is a constructive post?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 14, 2019, 05:26:48 PM
From the internet

"So congratulations if you wanted Boris Johnson as pm.

Please don’t celebrate too much though as you have work to do. You see us remoaners have spent three and a half years now telling you brexit was wrong but we’ve finally and completely lost. There’s pretty much nothing we can do now to stop it.

So, it’s over to you leavers. You need to get yourselves into gear to make it work. We need to see some of these benefits you’ve been able to see yet unable to properly articulate since 2016.

I hope you don’t mind but I’ve taken the liberty of writing a to do list for you.

1. Get brexit done please. When we say done we mean as promised so we’ll be looking for trade deals with the EU, Japan, Australia and Canada etc. In fact there’s about 40 deals covering 70 countries that need to be done please. Also with the US that doesn’t involve the nhs or chlorine. We want what you promised us. That was that we’d be no worse off than when we were an EU member. You need to crack on as this was promised by the end of Jan. You have seven weeks.
2. The nhs. We want the cash that was promised please. £350 million per week is about 72000 nurses so please get recruiting. This is important.
3. Scotland. Ok so these guys were promised they would remain in the EU if they remained in the UK. They’re pretty pissed. In fact they’ve voted almost exclusively for the SNP so they might want to leave. Equally you said the UK wouldn’t split so you’ll need to both grant Scotland its independence and keep it as part of the United Kingdom. Good luck squaring this circle. NB. This is urgent.
4. Northern Ireland. Oooookay then. You’ve really b....red this one up. There’s a chance they could look to reunify with the republic now because they didn’t want to brexit. Regardless you’ve caused instability there where we and they can least afford it. NB. This is also urgent.
5. The economy. Johnson keeps talking about unleashing the potential of the country. We need to see this soon if possible. We don’t want to see the downturn that “project fear” predicted. We don’t want to be poorer. We don’t want to lose out.
6. You’ll also need to “bring the country back together”. This might be tricky as a lot of people seem to be really really angry with each other.

That’s as far as I’ve got. Should keep you busy. So go and get all british about things. Roll up your sleeves, pull your socks up, dig deep and deliver what you promised.

And remember if you fail to deliver any if this it’s on you, brexit and Tory voters. You wanted this so badly and now you have it. We honestly hope we’re wrong and that you can make a success of this but if you can’t then we will forever tell you that we told you so."
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 14, 2019, 07:59:29 PM
I think it's time the remoaners shut up. They fought tooth and nail to stop Brexit and they failed. The silent majority watched and listened and then used their votes to show them that ignoring the democratic process won't be tolerated. They voted for the one man who pledged to carry out the will of the people.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 14, 2019, 08:05:52 PM
I think it's time the remoaners shut up. They fought tooth and nail to stop Brexit and they failed. The silent majority watched and listened and then used their votes to show them that ignoring the democratic process won't be tolerated. They voted for the one man who pledged to carry out the will of the people.
You don’t believe in freedom of speech then. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 14, 2019, 10:34:51 PM
You don’t believe in freedom of speech then.

I would have thought even those numpties would have realised no-one's listening. (except you, of course)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on December 14, 2019, 10:41:16 PM

I have been on the verge of hysterics for the last two days.  But it was the Anti Semitism that got me.  I can understand most differences, but never that one.  And No, I am not a Jew.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 14, 2019, 10:56:43 PM
I would have thought even those numpties would have realised no-one's listening. (except you, of course)
What on earth are you on about? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 14, 2019, 10:58:38 PM
IMO people who don’t vote have no right to criticise those of us that do, regardless of who or what they vote for.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on December 14, 2019, 11:16:51 PM
G-Unit has referred to Remainers (she knows I voted remain) as both “Remoaners” and “Numpties” this evening and tells them to “shut up”.  I thought this bastion of civility did not condone abuse?  True colours showing, and from a woman who didn’t even bother to vote at all. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: mrswah on December 14, 2019, 11:40:46 PM
I have been on the verge of hysterics for the last two days.  But it was the Anti Semitism that got me.  I can understand most differences, but never that one.  And No, I am not a Jew.

It was the [ censored word]emitism that got to me as well (and no, I am not Jewish either, although some of my family are). If it had not been for that, I would have voted Labour, and I bet there were a number of other people who felt the same way.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on December 15, 2019, 12:25:53 AM
It was the [ censored word]emitism that got to me as well (and no, I am not Jewish either, although some of my family are). If it had not been for that, I would have voted Labour, and I bet there were a number of other people who felt the same way.

This is what I believe, although I have never voted Labour.  My family never quite forgave me for that.  So it hasn't all been about Brexit.  But no one wants to talk about that.

Communism for Britain?  I don't care.  I don't live in England.  And France has always ignored Brussels when it suited them.

The French Health System is actually the best in the World.  My contribution is minuscule due to my awful British State Pension.  And if you are genuinely poor then you don't pay anything.  There are No Waiting Lists for anything.

However, I have never had to make use of it.  Either because I am disgustingly healthy, or because I don't need a Doctor to tell me how to deal with things that are largely obvious.

I have always believed that The EU is bad for Britain.  The EU has always taken the piss.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on December 15, 2019, 12:37:09 AM

PS.  My stepmother was Jewish, and much as I loathed the horrible old cow, I saw the fear and the fact that she pretended that my half brother wasn't a Jew.  And that was in 1950.  She wasn't wrong.  The Labour Party that she supported have turned on her and my Brother.  I hope that she isn't turning in her grave.

There is always much more to family differences than first seem apparent.  I am sick to my stomach with Corbyn.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: mrswah on December 15, 2019, 08:10:31 AM
PS.  My stepmother was Jewish, and much as I loathed the horrible old cow, I saw the fear and the fact that she pretended that my half brother wasn't a Jew.  And that was in 1950.  She wasn't wrong.  The Labour Party that she supported have turned on her and my Brother.  I hope that she isn't turning in her grave.

There is always much more to family differences than first seem apparent.  I am sick to my stomach with Corbyn.


I am disgusted that he went into a General Election without having sorted out the [ censored word]emitism taint that is pervading his party.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on December 15, 2019, 11:04:17 AM

I am disgusted that he went into a General Election without having sorted out the [ censored word]emitism taint that is pervading his party.

He just kept quiet and hoped it would go away.  It didn't.  A lot of people will remember this, and they aren't all Jews.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on December 17, 2019, 06:26:56 PM
Thoughts?


Boris Johnson’s senior adviser claimed process of making non-MPs government ministers could be done ‘very, very quickly’

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-cummings-house-of-lords-ministers-nicky-morgan-boris-johnson-a9250031.html

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Brietta on December 22, 2019, 10:39:30 PM
Thoughts?


Boris Johnson’s senior adviser claimed process of making non-MPs government ministers could be done ‘very, very quickly’

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-cummings-house-of-lords-ministers-nicky-morgan-boris-johnson-a9250031.html

A glimpse of things to come.

The only thing in my opinion that is worse than Boris Johnson being prime minister is Boris Johnson being prime minister with an unassailable majority.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on December 23, 2019, 07:34:15 AM
A glimpse of things to come.

The only thing in my opinion that is worse than Boris Johnson being prime minister is Boris Johnson being prime minister with an unassailable majority.

You do surprise me.  But since my opinion is from a distance it is difficult for me to really know.

Britain was going downhill before I left 25 years ago and only got worse after that.  At least I now have some small hope for the country of my birth.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 23, 2019, 11:20:37 AM
A glimpse of things to come.

The only thing in my opinion that is worse than Boris Johnson being prime minister is Boris Johnson being prime minister with an unassailable majority.

Boris Johnson has an unassailable majority because of the disgraceful behaviour of our MP's over the last few years.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on December 23, 2019, 01:39:18 PM
Boris Johnson has an unassailable majority because of the disgraceful behaviour of our MP's over the last few years.

AND  I would add to that, the total lack of empathy for people who were bringing community issues to their attention and being ignored or called names, mostly driven by the 'celebrity tw..ters'. Who's opinions were outed as meanigless, via a mass 'silent' majority. otherwise referred to as the uneducated- great unwashed.
they were $6(& hahaha
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on December 23, 2019, 02:51:10 PM
Boris Johnson has an unassailable majority because of the disgraceful behaviour of our MP's over the last few years.

I think it is a bit more complicated than that.  Why have so many Labour Voters decided to vote Tory?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on December 23, 2019, 03:01:55 PM
I think it is a bit more complicated than that.  Why have so many Labour Voters decided to vote Tory?

They want Brexit done.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: mrswah on December 23, 2019, 03:12:13 PM
They want Brexit done.


Also, they felt that Corbyn is unpatriotic.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Myster on December 23, 2019, 07:13:24 PM
Incredible to think he is still Labour leader isn’t it??
You ain't seen nothin' yet... just wait until flat-vowelling Mancunian Mrs. Merton takes over...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC7rXDYa48w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC7rXDYa48w)
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 23, 2019, 07:15:10 PM
Incredible to think he is still Labour leader isn’t it??

I do hope the next labour leader is Jess Phillips, that really would kill the party off IMO

She hates men & can barely string a sentence together.

I wouldn't even rape her....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on December 23, 2019, 08:02:38 PM
You ain't seen nothin' yet... just wait until flat-vowelling Mancunian Mrs. Merton takes over...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC7rXDYa48w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC7rXDYa48w)

Rebecca Wrong Daily.  Love it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on December 31, 2019, 11:00:35 PM
Topic please everyone!

And a very Happy New Year to one and all as we enter a brand new decade.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 03, 2020, 10:36:01 PM
Faith, can you explain why only one Labour MP has been returned to represent the entire Scottish electorate if he is the champion for the working class and the  public services and the decents days work etc.
Jeremy to blame?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 03, 2020, 11:09:18 PM
Topic please everyone!

And a very Happy New Year to one and all as we enter a brand new decade.

If only.  I'm not holding my breath.  But something good always comes from disasters.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2020, 11:21:41 PM
Faith, can you explain why only one Labour MP has been returned to represent the entire Scottish electorate if he is the champion for the working class and the  public services and the decents days work etc.
Jeremy to blame?

I’m afraid you’d have to ask the Scottish voters that question Erngath. However Labour’s dwindling fortunes in Scotland predate Corbyn by quite some years, the biggest loss of seats being in the 2015 election under Ed Miliband when they lost 40 seats. Talking to my friends who still live in Scotland it is Scottish Labour’s performance rather than the national party as a whole that has been the vote loser.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on January 03, 2020, 11:26:46 PM
If only.  I'm not holding my breath.  But something good always comes from disasters.

The pound sterling is bouncing back already as predicted, the only way is up for the UK now!

If things develop the way I think they will, the UK won't be last country to ditch the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 03, 2020, 11:41:41 PM
I’m afraid you’d have to ask the Scottish voters that question Erngath. However Labour’s dwindling fortunes in Scotland predate Corbyn by quite some years, the biggest loss of seats being in the 2015 election under Ed Miliband when they lost 40 seats. Talking to my friends who still live in Scotland it is Scottish Labour’s performance rather than the national party as a whole that has been the vote loser.

I really don't think so.
My husband is from a very strong Labour support family/ background and there is no doubt that the UK Labour party with or without Jeremy has lost their stronghold in Scotland.
I would never have ever envisaged a time when only one Labour MP would represent the entire Scottish nation at Westminster.
I read today that Monica Lenon ?  now wants to institute a separate Scottish Labour party away from the UK one?
Perhaps a way torward for the Labour party n Scotland?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 03, 2020, 11:45:51 PM
The pound sterling is bouncing back already as predicted, the only way is up for the UK now!

If things develop the way I think they will, the UK won't be last country to ditch the EU.

France has been very good to me.  Far more kind than Britain ever was.  But then France has always largely ignored The EU.  Such a pity that Britain didn't do the same.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 03, 2020, 11:58:21 PM
The pound sterling is bouncing back already as predicted, the only way is up for the UK now!

If things develop the way I think they will, the UK won't be last country to ditch the EU.

Let’s hope you’re right John.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2020, 12:05:09 AM
I really don't think so.
My husband is from a very strong Labour support family/ background and there is no doubt that the UK Labour party with or without Jeremy has lost their stronghold in Scotland.
I would never have ever envisaged a time when only one Labour MP would represent the entire Scottish nation at Westminster.
I read today that Monica Lenon ?  now wants to institute a separate Scottish Labour party away from the UK one?
Perhaps a way torward for the Labour party n Scotland?

I can only comment on the conversations I have had with my friends as I said but I absolutely agree that Labour has lost their historical support in Scotland and tbh without that support it will be hard for the party to regain power in the whole of the U.K. I’d would be interested to know if your husband and his family voted Labour in the last election and if not why not ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2020, 12:09:03 AM
France has been very good to me.  Far more kind than Britain ever was.  But then France has always largely ignored The EU.  Such a pity that Britain didn't do the same.

Let’s hope that you don’t suffer in France any of the abhorrent xenophobic behaviour that many of my Eastern European friends have had to endure here in the U.K after we leave.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2020, 12:13:54 AM
Let’s hope that you don’t suffer in France any of the abhorrent xenophobic behaviour that many of my Eastern European friends have had to endure here in the U.K after we leave.

This is not possible.  I have been here for too long.  Part of the fixtures now.  And besides, The Breton People are inherently kind.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2020, 12:18:31 AM
This is not possible.  I have been here for too long.  Part of the fixtures now.  And besides, The Breton People are inherently kind.

Glad to hear it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 04, 2020, 12:37:14 AM
I can only comment on the conversations I have had with my friends as I said but I absolutely agree that Labour has lost their historical support in Scotland and tbh without that support it will be hard for the party to regain power in the whole of the U.K. I’d would be interested to know if your husband and his family voted Labour in the last election and if not why not ?

Some of his family would never ever vote for anything other than Labour and I presume they did because to vote Tory would be an anathema to them but others chose to vote SNP.
My two brothers in-law who were both die hard labour voters voted SNP.
And sorry but Jeremy was a vote loser here.
I actually do believe that if the Scottish Labour party did break the ties with the UK Labour party they would fare much better.
How many labour members of Holyrood  are there?
Does that not  negate your answer that Labour has lost their historical vote n Scotland?
I believe many labour supporters voted SNP because they want an independent Scotland.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2020, 12:54:50 AM
Some of his family would never ever vote for anything other than Labour and I presume they did because to vote Tory would be an anathema to them but others chose to vote SNP.
My two brothers in-law who were both die hard labour voters voted SNP.
And sorry but Jeremy was a vote loser here.
I actually do believe that if the Scottish Labour party did break the ties with the UK Labour party they would fare much better.
How many labour members of Holyrood  are there?
Does that not  negate your answer that Labour has lost their historical vote n Scotland?

Miliband lost 40 seats in the 2015 election leaving him with 1 Scottish Labour seat. Corbyn in 2017 gained 6 seats so it appears Corbyn wasn’t the vote loser you suggest.

Not sure what you mean by your last point ? Labour was historically strong in Scotland and that support has been lost...the reasons why are more complex than simply the wrong choice of leader, as the 2015 and 2017 election has shown.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 04, 2020, 01:00:29 AM
Miliband lost 40 seats in the 2015 election leaving him with 1 Scottish Labour seat. Corbyn in 2017 gained 6 seats so it appears Corbyn wasn’t the vote loser you suggest.

Not sure what you mean by your last point ? Labour was historically strong in Scotland and that support has been lost...the reasons why are more complex than simply the wrong choice of leader, as the 2015 and 2017 election has shown.

We agree that support for the Labour party has been lost in Scotland when it is a Westminster General Election but not in a Holyrood election.
Why has it not lost support in Holyrood?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2020, 01:01:42 AM
Europe is fine for Europe.  They need each other.  I won't go into Germany.  My thoughts on that subject aren't rational.

Brits are not able to be European.  They simply don't understand a collective brain, and no good reason for why they should.  You have to live here to understand.   They were beaten roundly because they didn't see it coming.

Many Breton families where I live suffered greatly.  The War Memorials are devastating.  They were brave people no matter what Britain thinks.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2020, 01:14:20 AM
We agree that support for the Labour party has been lost in Scotland when it is a Westminster General Election but not in a Holyrood election.
Why has it not lost support in Holyrood?

Again you would have to ask the voters but several factors may be at play including the number of seats contested, 129 to Westminster’s 59 and in the Scottish elections 16-17s were allowed to vote, a demographic more likely to vote Labour.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2020, 01:27:30 AM

Sometime the intellectual levels on this Forum quite amaze me.  Oh for all I have learned.  I am often stunned.  So many of you know so much more than I could have imagined.

What an ignoramus I was when first I came here.

That's a compliment, by the way.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 04, 2020, 07:00:20 AM
Again you would have to ask the voters but several factors may be at play including the number of seats contested, 129 to Westminster’s 59 and in the Scottish elections 16-17s were allowed to vote, a demographic more likely to vote Labour.

Three of my grand children are first time voters.
From chatting to them and their friends it would seem that very few of that age group voted Labour.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2020, 11:23:36 AM
Three of my grand children are first time voters.
From chatting to them and their friends it would seem that very few of that age group voted Labour.

The statistics seem to suggest otherwise.

‘Labour’s strongest demographics are the under-35s, public-sector workers and renters. It does better among remain groups than leave groups – and even better among those who did not vote in the 2016 referendum (reflecting its younger age profile). Labour is losing less of its 2017 vote to the Brexit party than the Conservatives, but is suffering more when it comes to the Lib Dems and the Greens – about a quarter of its 2017 vote has switched to one of those more unambiguously pro-remain parties.’

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/04/election-polls-boris-johnson-jeremy-corbyn

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2020, 11:56:43 AM
The statistics seem to suggest otherwise.

‘Labour’s strongest demographics are the under-35s, public-sector workers and renters. It does better among remain groups than leave groups – and even better among those who did not vote in the 2016 referendum (reflecting its younger age profile). Labour is losing less of its 2017 vote to the Brexit party than the Conservatives, but is suffering more when it comes to the Lib Dems and the Greens – about a quarter of its 2017 vote has switched to one of those more unambiguously pro-remain parties.’

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/04/election-polls-boris-johnson-jeremy-corbyn

Did The Labour Party win, or come even remotely near it?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2020, 12:31:42 PM
Did The Labour Party win, or come even remotely near it?

I don’t think I claimed that they did.

The point I was making is the disparity between the number of Labour seats in the Scottish Parliament and those in Westminster may be explained by the overall number of seats being contested or the fact that 16-17 year olds can vote in Scotland but not in England/Wales.

I thought I’d made that clear.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2020, 12:37:55 PM
I don’t think I claimed that they did.

The point I was making is the disparity between the number of Labour seats in the Scottish Parliament and those in Westminster may be explained by the overall number of seats being contested or the fact that 16-17 year olds can vote in Scotland but not in England/Wales.

I thought I’d made that clear.

You probably did.  I am not feeling very well at the moment.

However, there is much to be said for the oldies.  They know that there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2020, 01:02:55 PM
You probably did.  I am not feeling very well at the moment.

However, there is much to be said for the oldies.  They know that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Sorry to hear you’re not feeling well. Hope things improve soon.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Eleanor on January 04, 2020, 02:13:44 PM
Sorry to hear you’re not feeling well. Hope things improve soon.

Oh they will.  I am just about to have another Large Gin.  This is by far the best way to knock back Ibuprofen.  I mean, you have to drink something with The Pill.  And water is so passé, don't you think.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 04, 2020, 07:17:08 PM
Oh they will.  I am just about to have another Large Gin.  This is by far the best way to knock back Ibuprofen.  I mean, you have to drink something with The Pill.  And water is so passé, don't you think.

Never could stand the taste of alcohol. Give me the sublime product of that little perforated bag instead anytime. That being said enjoy your tipple.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 04, 2020, 09:08:08 PM
France has been very good to me.  Far more kind than Britain ever was.  But then France has always largely ignored The EU.  Such a pity that Britain didn't do the same.

You are absolutely spot on. We sat like little well behaved children, while French fisher men got a great deal from the fisheries policy from our waters AND they get great hand outs for their farmers... so much for equality

The main reason for voting brexit IMO. Our Governments couldn't handle the workload and stupid regulations which came by in their truck loads according to a very seniors Civil Servant. Any suggestion was made into a law!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: matthewkevin84 on January 06, 2020, 12:09:41 AM
               Hi,


You don't think Brexit will be postponed again I take it?



Matt.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 06, 2020, 07:16:28 AM
               Hi,


You don't think Brexit will be postponed again I take it?



Matt.
Hi Matt, I think it’s highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: mrswah on January 06, 2020, 10:11:01 AM
               Hi,


You don't think Brexit will be postponed again I take it?



Matt.


I think it will go through this time---------it's what happens afterwards that is the big question!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on January 06, 2020, 08:28:16 PM
               Hi,


You don't think Brexit will be postponed again I take it?



Matt.




Well, there are still some who refuse to listen... but then remembers to cover up her  lizard tail.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/labour-leadership-jess-philips-backtracks-094307569.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2020, 01:11:15 PM
Brexit will happen in just six days and amazingly we're all still standing. Is it possible that the 'remain' propagandists were wrong? The truth is that the EU has far more to worry about than the UK, according to Alexander Von Shoenburg, the editor of Germany's biggest selling newspaper, BILD;

Even at events where the Champagne flows freely, the mood in the German capital is subdued these days.

On Tuesday I attended one of these glamorous Berlin functions, at which our Chancellor Angela Merkel was awarded the American Academy's Henry Kissinger Prize for her contribution to transatlantic relations.

Merkel was lauded for her 'steadfast' leadership, which had provided 'thoughtful, decent and long government'.

But all that praise could not disguise the profound sense of apprehension that hung in the air.

In Germany, fears are growing that the ship of Europe is sailing troubled waters. Soon it could be dashed on the rocks.

Why the anxiety? The looming impact of Brexit, as politicians and policy-makers across the continent begin to recognise that Britain's departure represents a daunting challenge to the European project.

At times it feels like cocktail hour aboard the Titanic, with the iceberg looming on the horizon.

It wasn't meant to be like this.

For years, EU leaders have insisted that Brexit would be a disaster for Britain, leaving your country hopelessly isolated.

According to the relentless propaganda of the pro-EU cause, Europe would forge ahead on the global stage, ever more united, while the UK would slide into insularity and decline.

But that narrative is starting to look like a delusion
.

Headed by a strong government and sustained by a dynamic economy, it is Britain that can look forward to the future with confidence, while the EU and its member states remain trapped in bureaucratic sclerosis, obsessed with regulation and welfare when much of the rest of the world is embracing commercial freedom.

This week, your Government's Brexit Bill finally completed its passage through Westminster, despite some last-ditch and futile skirmishing by Remainers in the House of Lords.

After all the long years of Parliamentary stalemate, Britain's withdrawal from the EU will become a reality next week.

The alarmists of Project Fear predicted that this moment would be the cue for economic meltdown, yet just the opposite is happening. Britain seems ready to prosper.

Only on Thursday, an authoritative study by the Confederation of British Industry reported the biggest surge in confidence on record among manufacturers, with companies planning to ramp- up investment.

The CBI's report followed news earlier in the week of yet another fall in unemployment as the British jobs miracle continues.

The jobless rate in the UK is at its lowest since 1974, while employment, at 33 million, is at its highest-ever level.

Particularly striking is the dramatic growth in self-employment to more than five million, a sure indicator of an enterprising economy.

The welcome jobs news comes against a backdrop of a rising pound, widely available affordable credit, a resurgence in the property market and a significant fall in Government borrowing.

Britain looks like it can manage well without the EU. But can the EU manage without Britain?

Your economy is bigger than the 18 smallest EU countries combined. This means in economic terms that the EU will lose not just one member state — but shrink from 28 members to ten.

On a purely fiscal level, the loss of Britain's contribution will have huge implications for the EU's budget.

And, on much a deeper level, Europe will also badly feel the loss of the Anglo-Saxon, pro-market business model, when so many EU governments are addicted to a quasi-socialist, big-state, heavily interventionist approach.

It is telling that, in this age of online technology, Europe's most significant achievement has not been to create a new web giant to rival Amazon or Google, but to use its clout to introduce tougher controls on email traffic through more regulation.

Similarly, it is remarkable that EU member states account for only seven per cent of the world's population — but 50 per cent of all welfare spending.

The truth is that Brexit — so often sneered at by the federalists — has shone a harsh spotlight on Europe's deep-seated structural problems.

Here in Germany, our economy has long hovered on the brink of recession, with growth at its most anaemic for a decade.

Manufacturing is looking increasingly outdated as exports and capital investments suffer.

Our car industry — the backbone of our economy — now faces perhaps its biggest crisis since Gottlieb Daimler and Karl Benz invented the automobile in the 1880s.

Yet in the face of this darkening picture, Merkel — now in the last full year of her tenure — seems astonishingly complacent and impotent.

At that Champagne reception in Berlin, she boasted of her achievements, then went on to do something most unusual for a Western politician: she quoted the Russian revolutionary Lenin, who referred to the political principle of 'one step forward, two steps back'.

No one seemed surprised that Merkel uttered the name of this mass-murdering communist in front of an august group of U.S. academics.

Meanwhile, the difficulties of other European countries are even worse.

Next door in France, President Emmanuel Macron is fighting a losing war in his attempt to reform the vast and creaking French state, especially its array of unaffordable pension schemes.

A glimpse into the rotten nature of France's sprawling civic bureaucracy was provided a few years ago by Aurelie Boullet, who wrote a book about her experiences as an employee at Aquitaine Regional Council.

'I was getting destroyed by my job because I had nothing to do,' she said, explaining that her actual work as a mid-ranking administrator amounted to between five and 12 hours a month.

In this culture of institutionalised idleness, she was once told that she had produced a report in the wrong typeface. She was given an entire week to change the font, though the task took her only 25 seconds.

Spain is no better and has no chance of economic renewal now that, after eight months of bickering and paralysis, the country has a socialist government propped up by the radical Left.

It is a similar story in Italy, which is stuck in perma-recession and where the state machine is hopelessly inefficient. There, as in France, attempts at reform have floundered.

Only this week, in an extraordinary judgment about a case that symbolises the mess Italy is in, an Italian court sided with a portly policeman who had been caught on film in 2015, clocking on for work in his underwear.

The case was brought as part of a crackdown on skiving officialdom, but the policeman, who lived in a flat above the station, successfully argued that actually putting on his uniform was part of his working day.

That kind of nonsense is typical of Europe, where too much of the state machinery is a self-serving racket.

A glance across the Channel to Britain is enough to make me sufficiently envious to reach for an aspirin — invented a long time ago in Germany — to quaff with the Champagne.

I see a government with a solid, one-party majority, compared to all the fragile coalitions of Europe. I see a nation with a strong sense of purpose, built on trust in its own capabilities, and a powerful economy. Indeed, according to the International Monetary Fund, Britain will be the fastest-growing G7 economy in Europe over the next two years.

I see a vibrant, open place that can attract huge amounts of foreign investment, has an unrivalled record on business start-ups, is a global pioneer of scientific and genetic research.

I see a country that has an unrivalled financial services sector, enjoys a vast cultural reach through language, music and the arts and contains several of the world's great universities.

At times, when I consider Britain, I am reminded of the bullish atmosphere that prevails in the fast-growing Asian economies.

It is all a graphic contrast to the sluggishness of Europe. When it comes to football, all the best talent is rushing to England, where the Premier League is the most attractive in the world.

While Britain is going through an astonishing cultural renaissance, reflected in the huge popularity of your entertainment industry and the expansion of major art galleries like London's Tate Modern, in Germany a new socialist law on national heritage is so heavy-handed on transactions of valuable art and antiques it is effectively killing the market.

The most interesting person I spoke to at the award ceremony in Berlin was Andrew Gundlach, scion of one of Germany's most famous banking families, the Arnholds, and now President and co-CEO of Bleichroeder LLC. He is a shrewd man with a deep understanding of the geopolitical scene.

Did he think the outlook is grim for post-Brexit Britain? He laughed at the question.

'The whole point of Brexit was to align with the high growth of America and China and not low-growth Europe,' he said.

What sends cold sweat running down the spine of European policy makers, he added, is a vibrant, talent-attracting economy right on Europe's doorstep, with rule-books more liberal than the EU's.

The last time I visited Britain to gauge the spirit of your country for my newspaper BILD, I travelled north, to Teesside.

To my surprise, I found local politicians and businessmen talking of low-tax 'freeports' and new opportunities, and people in pubs ridiculing the doomsayers in the south. Decades of EU membership had seemingly done little for prosperity there.

More than one person told me that things might well get better, 'once we're out'.

They could well be right. Europe fears a truly global Britain.

Diehard Remainers still cling to the belief that Britain will stumble, that the forthcoming negotiations on a trade deal will prove tortuous.

I am not so sure. With only ten months of talks left, Britain is in a far better position than most here on the continent dare to admit.

In Boris Johnson, you have a charismatic, election-winning Prime Minister who has forced through Brexit partly thanks to the sheer force of his personality and his ability to outmanoeuvre his opponents.

In the process, he has repeatedly defied his critics. They said he would never persuade the EU to re-open the Withdrawal Agreement, drop the Irish backstop or reach a new deal.

He achieved all three — and I believe he can do so again with a trade accord.

European politicians used to push around Johnson's predecessor, Theresa May.

Now they are confronted with a leader who really is too 'strong and stable' to be bullied.

The eminent historian Niall Ferguson recently said: 'I think Brussels has not really adjusted to the new situation, but they will adjust when they realise that Britain isn't about to be rolled over the way it was because of the way May was negotiating.

'We will see a very different tone to these negotiations.'

The Champagne at these self-congratulatory diplomatic receptions is starting to leave a sour taste.

Your future looks bright. I'm not so sure about mine.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7927123/ALEXANDER-VON-SCHOENBURG-says-Germany-fears-Britain-face-reality-Brexit.html

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 25, 2020, 05:31:53 PM
I think it’s a little too soon to be doing too much gloating about Brexit. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Admin on January 25, 2020, 06:22:26 PM
Brexit will happen in just six days and amazingly we're all still standing. Is it possible that the 'remain' propagandists were wrong? The truth is that the EU has far more to worry about than the UK, according to Alexander Von Shoenburg, the editor of Germany's biggest selling newspaper, BILD;

Even at events where the Champagne flows freely, the mood in the German capital is subdued these days.

On Tuesday I attended one of these glamorous Berlin functions, at which our Chancellor Angela Merkel was awarded the American Academy's Henry Kissinger Prize for her contribution to transatlantic relations.

Merkel was lauded for her 'steadfast' leadership, which had provided 'thoughtful, decent and long government'.

But all that praise could not disguise the profound sense of apprehension that hung in the air.

In Germany, fears are growing that the ship of Europe is sailing troubled waters. Soon it could be dashed on the rocks.

Why the anxiety? The looming impact of Brexit, as politicians and policy-makers across the continent begin to recognise that Britain's departure represents a daunting challenge to the European project.

At times it feels like cocktail hour aboard the Titanic, with the iceberg looming on the horizon.

It wasn't meant to be like this.

For years, EU leaders have insisted that Brexit would be a disaster for Britain, leaving your country hopelessly isolated.

According to the relentless propaganda of the pro-EU cause, Europe would forge ahead on the global stage, ever more united, while the UK would slide into insularity and decline.

But that narrative is starting to look like a delusion
.

Headed by a strong government and sustained by a dynamic economy, it is Britain that can look forward to the future with confidence, while the EU and its member states remain trapped in bureaucratic sclerosis, obsessed with regulation and welfare when much of the rest of the world is embracing commercial freedom.

This week, your Government's Brexit Bill finally completed its passage through Westminster, despite some last-ditch and futile skirmishing by Remainers in the House of Lords.

After all the long years of Parliamentary stalemate, Britain's withdrawal from the EU will become a reality next week.

The alarmists of Project Fear predicted that this moment would be the cue for economic meltdown, yet just the opposite is happening. Britain seems ready to prosper.

Only on Thursday, an authoritative study by the Confederation of British Industry reported the biggest surge in confidence on record among manufacturers, with companies planning to ramp- up investment.

The CBI's report followed news earlier in the week of yet another fall in unemployment as the British jobs miracle continues.

The jobless rate in the UK is at its lowest since 1974, while employment, at 33 million, is at its highest-ever level.

Particularly striking is the dramatic growth in self-employment to more than five million, a sure indicator of an enterprising economy.

The welcome jobs news comes against a backdrop of a rising pound, widely available affordable credit, a resurgence in the property market and a significant fall in Government borrowing.

Britain looks like it can manage well without the EU. But can the EU manage without Britain?

Your economy is bigger than the 18 smallest EU countries combined. This means in economic terms that the EU will lose not just one member state — but shrink from 28 members to ten.

On a purely fiscal level, the loss of Britain's contribution will have huge implications for the EU's budget.

And, on much a deeper level, Europe will also badly feel the loss of the Anglo-Saxon, pro-market business model, when so many EU governments are addicted to a quasi-socialist, big-state, heavily interventionist approach.

It is telling that, in this age of online technology, Europe's most significant achievement has not been to create a new web giant to rival Amazon or Google, but to use its clout to introduce tougher controls on email traffic through more regulation.

Similarly, it is remarkable that EU member states account for only seven per cent of the world's population — but 50 per cent of all welfare spending.

The truth is that Brexit — so often sneered at by the federalists — has shone a harsh spotlight on Europe's deep-seated structural problems.

Here in Germany, our economy has long hovered on the brink of recession, with growth at its most anaemic for a decade.

Manufacturing is looking increasingly outdated as exports and capital investments suffer.

Our car industry — the backbone of our economy — now faces perhaps its biggest crisis since Gottlieb Daimler and Karl Benz invented the automobile in the 1880s.

Yet in the face of this darkening picture, Merkel — now in the last full year of her tenure — seems astonishingly complacent and impotent.

At that Champagne reception in Berlin, she boasted of her achievements, then went on to do something most unusual for a Western politician: she quoted the Russian revolutionary Lenin, who referred to the political principle of 'one step forward, two steps back'.

No one seemed surprised that Merkel uttered the name of this mass-murdering communist in front of an august group of U.S. academics.

Meanwhile, the difficulties of other European countries are even worse.

Next door in France, President Emmanuel Macron is fighting a losing war in his attempt to reform the vast and creaking French state, especially its array of unaffordable pension schemes.

A glimpse into the rotten nature of France's sprawling civic bureaucracy was provided a few years ago by Aurelie Boullet, who wrote a book about her experiences as an employee at Aquitaine Regional Council.

'I was getting destroyed by my job because I had nothing to do,' she said, explaining that her actual work as a mid-ranking administrator amounted to between five and 12 hours a month.

In this culture of institutionalised idleness, she was once told that she had produced a report in the wrong typeface. She was given an entire week to change the font, though the task took her only 25 seconds.

Spain is no better and has no chance of economic renewal now that, after eight months of bickering and paralysis, the country has a socialist government propped up by the radical Left.

It is a similar story in Italy, which is stuck in perma-recession and where the state machine is hopelessly inefficient. There, as in France, attempts at reform have floundered.

Only this week, in an extraordinary judgment about a case that symbolises the mess Italy is in, an Italian court sided with a portly policeman who had been caught on film in 2015, clocking on for work in his underwear.

The case was brought as part of a crackdown on skiving officialdom, but the policeman, who lived in a flat above the station, successfully argued that actually putting on his uniform was part of his working day.

That kind of nonsense is typical of Europe, where too much of the state machinery is a self-serving racket.

A glance across the Channel to Britain is enough to make me sufficiently envious to reach for an aspirin — invented a long time ago in Germany — to quaff with the Champagne.

I see a government with a solid, one-party majority, compared to all the fragile coalitions of Europe. I see a nation with a strong sense of purpose, built on trust in its own capabilities, and a powerful economy. Indeed, according to the International Monetary Fund, Britain will be the fastest-growing G7 economy in Europe over the next two years.

I see a vibrant, open place that can attract huge amounts of foreign investment, has an unrivalled record on business start-ups, is a global pioneer of scientific and genetic research.

I see a country that has an unrivalled financial services sector, enjoys a vast cultural reach through language, music and the arts and contains several of the world's great universities.

At times, when I consider Britain, I am reminded of the bullish atmosphere that prevails in the fast-growing Asian economies.

It is all a graphic contrast to the sluggishness of Europe. When it comes to football, all the best talent is rushing to England, where the Premier League is the most attractive in the world.

While Britain is going through an astonishing cultural renaissance, reflected in the huge popularity of your entertainment industry and the expansion of major art galleries like London's Tate Modern, in Germany a new socialist law on national heritage is so heavy-handed on transactions of valuable art and antiques it is effectively killing the market.

The most interesting person I spoke to at the award ceremony in Berlin was Andrew Gundlach, scion of one of Germany's most famous banking families, the Arnholds, and now President and co-CEO of Bleichroeder LLC. He is a shrewd man with a deep understanding of the geopolitical scene.

Did he think the outlook is grim for post-Brexit Britain? He laughed at the question.

'The whole point of Brexit was to align with the high growth of America and China and not low-growth Europe,' he said.

What sends cold sweat running down the spine of European policy makers, he added, is a vibrant, talent-attracting economy right on Europe's doorstep, with rule-books more liberal than the EU's.

The last time I visited Britain to gauge the spirit of your country for my newspaper BILD, I travelled north, to Teesside.

To my surprise, I found local politicians and businessmen talking of low-tax 'freeports' and new opportunities, and people in pubs ridiculing the doomsayers in the south. Decades of EU membership had seemingly done little for prosperity there.

More than one person told me that things might well get better, 'once we're out'.

They could well be right. Europe fears a truly global Britain.

Diehard Remainers still cling to the belief that Britain will stumble, that the forthcoming negotiations on a trade deal will prove tortuous.

I am not so sure. With only ten months of talks left, Britain is in a far better position than most here on the continent dare to admit.

In Boris Johnson, you have a charismatic, election-winning Prime Minister who has forced through Brexit partly thanks to the sheer force of his personality and his ability to outmanoeuvre his opponents.

In the process, he has repeatedly defied his critics. They said he would never persuade the EU to re-open the Withdrawal Agreement, drop the Irish backstop or reach a new deal.

He achieved all three — and I believe he can do so again with a trade accord.

European politicians used to push around Johnson's predecessor, Theresa May.

Now they are confronted with a leader who really is too 'strong and stable' to be bullied.

The eminent historian Niall Ferguson recently said: 'I think Brussels has not really adjusted to the new situation, but they will adjust when they realise that Britain isn't about to be rolled over the way it was because of the way May was negotiating.

'We will see a very different tone to these negotiations.'

The Champagne at these self-congratulatory diplomatic receptions is starting to leave a sour taste.

Your future looks bright. I'm not so sure about mine.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7927123/ALEXANDER-VON-SCHOENBURG-says-Germany-fears-Britain-face-reality-Brexit.html

The EU is very much in danger of disintegrating in my view. Once other wealthy countries see how the UK can make a success of it outside of the EU dictatorship they too will be wanting the same freedoms. Watch this space.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 25, 2020, 06:40:36 PM
The EU is very much in danger of disintegrating in my view. Once other wealthy countries see how the UK can make a success of it outside of the EU dictatorship they too will be wanting the same freedoms. Watch this space.
In which case the EU will have to decide which is in its greater interest - a trade deal with the UK or to let the UK crash out on WTO terms which would not be good news for our economy and which might serve as an example to other member states thinking of following suit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 25, 2020, 06:53:46 PM
Are there any public celebrations.planned for Brexit Day in England ?
As far as I am aware there are no  public celebrations planned here, although I'm sure there will be pockets of private celebratory toasts.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 25, 2020, 07:10:42 PM
Are there any public celebrations.planned for Brexit Day in England ?
As far as I am aware there are no  public celebrations planned here, although I'm sure there will be pockets of private celebratory toasts.

Come to London on the evening of the 31st January and you can join in. You will be very welcome.

https://www-bbc-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-51118976?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCKAE%3D#aoh=15799798568517&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1232566/brexit-news-latest-dover-brexit-day-celebrations-fireworks-january-31-france-EU
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 25, 2020, 07:23:12 PM
Come to Londo on the evening of the 31st January and you can join in. You will be very welcome.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1232566/brexit-news-latest-dover-brexit-day-celebrations-fireworks-january-31-france-EU

Thank you for the invite but perhaps not.
Enjoy the evening, no doubt there will be rousing choruses of Rule Britannia, Jerusalem,.Land of Hope and Glory while much waving of the Union Jack will be enjoyed.
Meantime the wishes of the other nations of this glorious Union are being ignored and trampled upon.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 25, 2020, 07:26:13 PM
You could also attend Boris' party.

UK PM Boris Johnson will celebrate Brexit with a light show and projected clock after plans to get London's Big Ben to ring went wrong. Celebrating Brexit is not welcomed by everyone in the deeply divided country.
The UK's Conservative government will throw a Brexit night party on January 31 to mark the day when the country officially leaves the European Union.

A countdown clock will be projected on the outer walls of the government offices along with a light show. British flags will be flown around the nearby Parliament Square "in response to public calls" said the UK government on Friday.

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson had initially suggested iconic London landmark Big Ben would ring at 2300 GMT on January 31 to mark Brexit if the public donated the money needed for a one-time ring. The clock has been undergoing renovation since 2017 and has been largely silent during this period.

https://dw.com/en/brexit-celebration-boris-johnson-reveals-big-plans-for-leave-night-party/a-52049191
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Angelo222 on January 25, 2020, 07:38:15 PM
Thank you for the invite but perhaps not.
Enjoy the evening, no doubt there will be rousing choruses of Rule Britannia, Jerusalem,.Land of Hope and Glory while much waving of the Union Jack will be enjoyed.
Meantime the wishes of the other nations of this glorious Union are being ignored and trampled upon.

I've bought an EU flag especially for the occasion, needless to say it won't be going home with me.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2020, 07:59:54 PM
I think it’s a little too soon to be doing too much gloating about Brexit.

We were repeatedly told how the UK was going to fall apart if it left the EU. That's why I reproduced the article by a German with a very different viewpoint. He seems to think the EU is in danger of falling apart without the UK.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 25, 2020, 08:10:20 PM
The EU is very much in danger of disintegrating in my view. Once other wealthy countries see how the UK can make a success of it outside of the EU dictatorship they too will be wanting the same freedoms. Watch this space.

The UK leaving will certainly put pressure on other wealthy EU countries.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 25, 2020, 11:24:21 PM
We were repeatedly told how the UK was going to fall apart if it left the EU. That's why I reproduced the article by a German with a very different viewpoint. He seems to think the EU is in danger of falling apart without the UK.
One (German) man’s view, in one newspaper (The extremely pro-Brexit Daily Mail) making predictions and you think his views should be taken seriously why exactly?  You know there are many who disagree, what makes you so sure your man is calling it correctly?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2020, 09:14:16 AM
One (German) man’s view, in one newspaper (The extremely pro-Brexit Daily Mail) making predictions and you think his views should be taken seriously why exactly?  You know there are many who disagree, what makes you so sure your man is calling it correctly?

I can't predict the future and neither can all the remainers you kept quoting. Alexander Von Shoenburg's opinion is as valid as anyone else's and, in my opinion, he is being more realistic about the effect on the EU than most commentators. The loss of the UK's contribution to it's coffers is bound to have consequences.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2020, 09:23:13 AM
I've bought an EU flag especially for the occasion, needless to say it won't be going home with me.  @)(++(*
Rod Liddle, as pro-Brexit as they come has this to day about your little party in today’s Sunday Times


“That the celebrations are primarily about schadenfreude is beyond doubt, otherwise they would have been held in Grimsby or Stoke or Hartlepool. I am taking my cue from a chap on social media planning to attend this jamboree of delighted vindictiveness: “Let the nose-rubbing begin!” The purpose is to gather and laugh at the people who lost, a finger raised at the Great Wen and its defeated inhabitants: Gina Miller, Baroness Hale with your stupid brooch, John Bercow, Tony Blair, Kenneth Clarke, the BBC — your boys took a hell of a beating, and so on.

Perhaps in my old age I am losing the ability to take joy from one of the simple things in life — untrammelled spite — but I do not fancy this shindig very much. Truth be told, I am bored by the weekly convocations of jabbering narcissists jumping up and down every day in Parliament Square and beyond, impinging themselves on the rest of us, even if I approve of the right to protest. Worse, it seems to me that the leavers are cloaking themselves in the attire of the very worst of the remainiacs, a kind of superior smugness with just a soupçon of hatred”.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2020, 09:24:32 AM
I can't predict the future and neither can all the remainers you kept quoting. Alexander Von Shoenburg's opinion is as valid as anyone else's and, in my opinion, he is being more realistic about the effect on the EU than most commentators. The loss of the UK's contribution to it's coffers is bound to have consequences.
LOL at “as valid” and “more realistic “ in the same breath!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2020, 09:27:20 AM
You don’t think that the likely loss of our ability to do frictionless trade with our biggest trading partners will have any effect on our coffers?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2020, 01:15:50 PM
You don’t think that the likely loss of our ability to do frictionless trade with our biggest trading partners will have any effect on our coffers?

I think it works both ways; we may need to trade with them, but they need to trade with us too. Hopefully the EU will be more willing to negotiate now that the UK has a strong government with a clear mandate.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2020, 02:12:25 PM
I think it works both ways; we may need to trade with them, but they need to trade with us too. Hopefully the EU will be more willing to negotiate now that the UK has a strong government with a clear mandate.
We "may" need to trade with them??  I think there's no "may" about it, unless you truly do want to see us plunged into deep economic misery.  Hopefully everything will be all hunky dory though, let's keep our fingers crossed cos really that's all we can do now. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2020, 04:39:06 PM
We "may" need to trade with them??  I think there's no "may" about it, unless you truly do want to see us plunged into deep economic misery.  Hopefully everything will be all hunky dory though, let's keep our fingers crossed cos really that's all we can do now.

There may be businesses which have all their eggs in the EU basket, just as there may be EU businesses relying on the UK. I don't know. I do know that capitalism isn't kind to those who are inflexible. I grew up in a village where almost everyone worked for the same employer, and when that employer disappeared the village and it's population had to change to survive.

Sensible business people will have planned for the changes to come.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2020, 05:29:48 PM
There may be businesses which have all their eggs in the EU basket, just as there may be EU businesses relying on the UK. I don't know. I do know that capitalism isn't kind to those who are inflexible. I grew up in a village where almost everyone worked for the same employer, and when that employer disappeared the village and it's population had to change to survive.

Sensible business people will have planned for the changes to come.
I think you’re both stating the obvious and being absurdly simplistic .   It’s not about being inflexible at business level, more about being inflexible in negotiations at a government level I would venture.  You seem to favour the completely inflexible “Brexit means Brexit and be damned” approach from what I can gather. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 26, 2020, 09:56:59 PM
I think you’re both stating the obvious and being absurdly simplistic .   It’s not about being inflexible at business level, more about being inflexible in negotiations at a government level I would venture.  You seem to favour the completely inflexible “Brexit means Brexit and be damned” approach from what I can gather.

The UK will be no longer a member of the EU. It's up to both sides to accept that fact and negotiate accordingly.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 26, 2020, 10:38:12 PM
The UK will be no longer a member of the EU. It's up to both sides to accept that fact and negotiate accordingly.
Again, stating the bleedin’ obvious, thanks for that.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 27, 2020, 01:09:16 PM
With Brexit happening we're seeing a different picture now. Macron is under pressure from French fishermen panicking at the prospect of losing access to UK waters. Barnier fears the loss of millions of jobs accross Europe. There are rumours that other countries will follow the UK's lead.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2020, 05:55:37 PM
With Brexit happening we're seeing a different picture now. Macron is under pressure from French fishermen panicking at the prospect of losing access to UK waters. Barnier fears the loss of millions of jobs accross Europe. There are rumours that other countries will follow the UK's lead.
Sounds like you’re spreading rumours yourself,  I thought you were a fact-based kinda gal?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2020, 08:58:24 PM
An alternative view

EU has upper hand in Brexit trade talks, says Leo Varadkar
Leo Varadkar said it would be difficult to reach a trade deal on Boris Johnson’s timetable
Leo Varadkar said it would be difficult to reach a trade deal on Boris Johnson’s timetable
AIDAN CRAWLEY/EPA
The EU will have the upper hand in trade talks and will use Britain’s “weak position” on access to the Continent’s financial markets to force big concessions, Ireland’s prime minister has said.

Leo Varadkar, who held talks with Michel Barnier, the EU’s lead negotiator, today, warned that Britain’s economy was vulnerable during trade negotiations after Brexit next week.

His comments come as an internal Brussels diplomatic document, seen by The Times, reveals that the EU will demand the same fishing rights in Britain’s waters.

“I think the reality of situation is that the EU is a union of 27 member states. The UK is only one country. We have a population and a market of 450 million people. The UK, it’s about 60 million,” Mr Varadkar said. “So if these were two teams up against each other playing football, who do you think has the stronger team?”

Mr Varadkar said that, while Britain had a “very strong position” on control of its fishing waters after Brexit, any advantage would be hugely offset by vulnerabilities, especially on the EU’s ability to block the City from European markets.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2020, 09:06:42 PM
With Brexit happening we're seeing a different picture now. Macron is under pressure from French fishermen panicking at the prospect of losing access to UK waters. Barnier fears the loss of millions of jobs accross Europe. There are rumours that other countries will follow the UK's lead.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 27, 2020, 09:08:17 PM
And this
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2020, 09:58:07 AM
The EU as a whole may be strong, but the EU is made up of countries, each with their own needs. Some, in particular Ireland, the Netherlands and Belgium, need trade with the UK more than others. On the whole, the EU 27 would undoubtedly face significant economic harm from major disturbances to their trade with the UK.

It seems to me that both sides need to get the negoitiations right because both have a lot to lose. The EU have to consider the needs of 27 countries, the UK government just one.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 28, 2020, 05:30:25 PM
The EU as a whole may be strong, but the EU is made up of countries, each with their own needs. Some, in particular Ireland, the Netherlands and Belgium, need trade with the UK more than others. On the whole, the EU 27 would undoubtedly face significant economic harm from major disturbances to their trade with the UK.

It seems to me that both sides need to get the negoitiations right because both have a lot to lose. The EU have to consider the needs of 27 countries, the UK government just one.
IMO the side the decided to stand alone in order to do trade deals with a country like the USA (one that it has just managed to severely piss off) looks to have the weaker negotiating position. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 28, 2020, 10:55:16 PM
IMO the side the decided to stand alone in order to do trade deals with a country like the USA (one that it has just managed to severely piss off) looks to have the weaker negotiating position.

We shall see.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2020, 01:27:17 PM
The Government is wasting no time in stating it's intentions concerning fishing in UK waters;

Britain to Introduce Bill to End Automatic EU Fishing Rights in U.K. Waters
https://hamodia.com/2020/01/29/britain-introduce-bill-end-automatic-eu-fishing-rights-u-k-waters/

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 29, 2020, 03:41:13 PM
An excellent article on the subject in the National Disgrace that is the FT

https://www.ft.com/content/96ebfb1a-3ea6-11ea-a01a-bae547046735
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 29, 2020, 03:49:24 PM
Who really owns British Fishing Rights?
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/amp/
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2020, 09:20:00 PM
Who really owns British Fishing Rights?
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2018/10/11/fishing-quota-uk-defra-michael-gove/amp/

These quotas are set by the EU. Presumeably that will change post-Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 29, 2020, 09:48:33 PM
These quotas are set by the EU. Presumeably that will change post-Brexit.
Indeed, no doubt to the benefit of these five multimillionaires.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 29, 2020, 10:57:03 PM
Indeed, no doubt to the benefit of these five multimillionaires.

Who knows? Whatever the arrangement to come it will be one arranged by the elected and answerable British government not by unelected EU bureaucrats.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 29, 2020, 11:00:18 PM
Who knows? Whatever the arrangement to come it will be one arranged by the elected and answerable British government not by unelected EU bureaucrats.
The British government is run by unelected bureaucrats but never mind, I’m sure being British they are preferable to the European variety.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on January 30, 2020, 12:22:20 AM
Who knows? Whatever the arrangement to come it will be one arranged by the elected and answerable British government not by unelected EU bureaucrats.

Like Nicky Morgan or Zac Goldsmith?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 30, 2020, 08:38:58 PM
Absolutely spot on!

Brexit ‘liberation day’ is self-serving fantasy
new
Leavers know they can’t be proved wrong if the measure of success is freedom from the yoke rather than economic gain

Philip Collins
Thursday January 30 2020, 5.00pm, The Times
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In Cambodia it is January 7. In Kuwait, February 26. In the United States it is March 3, it is May 8 in the Czech Republic and July 4 in Rwanda. In Turkey it is celebrated on August 30 and the following day by the Lithuanians. In Bangladesh it is December 16. National liberation day in these nations commemorates, respectively, the defeat of the murderous Khmer Rouge, the expulsion of Iraq, the emancipation of slaves in Charlottesville, Virginia, liberation from Nazi Germany, the deposing of a genocidal tyrant, the end of the Turkish War of Independence, the withdrawal of the Russian army after half a century of occupation and the creation of a brand new nation out of Pakistan. None of these days of national liberation describe the voluntary departure of a sovereign democracy from a voluntary alignment of its rules regarding trade in goods and services.

Much the worst thing about the politicians and pundits who led the charge for Brexit is how susceptible they are to rank stupidity. I am not saying there are no reasons at all to wish to the leave the European Union; I am merely saying that the desire to be free is not one of them. The implication, that Britain has been in servitude since 1973, would be offensive to those who have endured genuine suffering if it were not so manifestly absurd. Brexit is a petty local dispute by comparison. It does not warrant this pathetic borrowed grandeur. Yet, as the prominent Brexit cheerleaders unfurl their flags and banners for their ode to joy at our departure, this is the rhetorical idiocy of the time.

The ascent into melodramatic rhetoric is always a tip-off that the speaker has nothing to say. The reason that Brexit has to be described as freedom from oppression is that it is hard to know what else it is, if it is not that. A notable feature of the sorry Brexit saga has been the vastly diminished expectations of even those pressing for departure. Whereas, in a lost and more innocent age in late 2016, Daniel Hannan could write his comic masterpiece, What Next, in which he looked forward to the day that Britain would emerge blinking into the light of a new dawn, to the sound of a nearby gurgling brook. After Mrs May’s downbeat tenure and Mr Johnson’s bluster the tone had changed completely. For a long while now the argument has been no more elevated than we have started so we had better finish. For all Mr Johnson’s fabled optimism it is hard, from what he says, to glean why we are doing this at all.

The reason for the silence where the good, persuasive reasons should be is that Brexit is not a rational project. I do not mean it is therefore irrational. I mean that before it is rational and mathematical it is psychological and emotional. By what measure will Brexit be judged a success or a failure, in the course of time, by its advocates? A higher trend rate of growth? A better performance than the average of the European economies? Regional growth led by inventive regulation that would have been stifled by the EU? It will be none of these things because Brexit was never an economic project for the Goves and Johnsons and Farages. It was, at the risk of emptying the term of meaning, a philosophical project. It was a liberation movement and there lies the secret of its success. Brexit is proof of what Aristotle pointed out in The Art of Rhetoric, that an appeal to the emotions trumps an appeal to the mind.

The description of Brexit as a liberation from the European yoke is also a proof against failure. If Brexit is defined by detaching British law from Europe then success is guaranteed merely by enacting departure. At 11pm this evening success will arrive. Yesterday we were in bondage; today we are free and freedom is its own reward. Brexit, conceived in this way, cannot fail which makes it obvious the argument is rigged. This is obvious self-serving rubbish which Messrs Gove and Johnson are bright enough to understand. The honest thing for them to do would to be set themselves some targets for what Brexit will achieve. How do they think they will be proved right, in the fullness of time? Brexit allows us to diverge from Europe but to what end and to what beneficial consequence we still, remarkably, have no idea.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2020, 09:01:13 PM
I've watched snippets of the last day of our membership of the EU.
Nigel"s last rant and his microphone being.switched off.
The singing of Auld.Lang Syne which I did find quite emotive.
 I'm old enough to remember our wish to join the EU.
I really hope those who believe our lives will be enriched and the good old days of.Britannia rules the waves will return have their hopes fulfilled.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on January 30, 2020, 09:19:04 PM
I think a lot of people are going to suffer a major bout of disillusionment and disappointment when they discover that nothing much changes post Brexit and that life plods on unremarkably for the average Joe and Joanna. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 30, 2020, 10:46:27 PM
Perhaps the thoughts of a sixteen year old teenager can be dismissed but talking to my sixteen year old granddaughter tonight was enlightening.
Her words were a democratic vote has to be followed but it wouldn't matter if the electorate of Scotland never, ever voted again in any General Election or any UK referendum.
How true!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on January 31, 2020, 09:46:36 AM
Perhaps the thoughts of a sixteen year old teenager can be dismissed but talking to my sixteen year old granddaughter tonight was enlightening.
Her words were a democratic vote has to be followed but it wouldn't matter if the electorate of Scotland never, ever voted again in any General Election or any UK referendum.
How true!

They wouldn't have needed to if they'd voted for an Independant Scotland but they didn't. It's your fellow Scots who put your granddaughter in the position she's in.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on January 31, 2020, 12:06:07 PM
They wouldn't have needed to if they'd voted for an Independant Scotland but they didn't. It's your fellow Scots who put your granddaughter in the position she's in.

That was the past.
Recent events have altered the opinion of many.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one of the rallying calls for those who opposed Independence was that Scotland would no longer be in the EU.
Many voted no because we would lose our membership of the EU, including our youngest son who now campaigns for Independence.
I'm sure you can understand the frustration he and his daughter and many others now feel.
Today we leave inspite of our majority vote to stay.
And if Boris continues to smirk at every SNP Westminster politician's speech then he will further increase the frustration of many here!


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 01, 2020, 08:30:58 AM
Yes, it did look toe-curlingly dreadful

Parliament Square was a knuckle-dragging carnival of irredeemable stupidity
What makes Britain’s independence day different from those that have gone before it that its prize is a freedom nobody else wants


Tom Peck
Political Sketch Writer

There they were, all gathered in one place. Not quite midnight’s children but 11 o’clock’s toddlers. Here, at the long-awaited end of dry January, was a once-proud nation coming together to wet its little trousers.

Do the ghosts of revolutions past haunt the hallowed days of now? Could you hear the hooves of Simon Bolivar’s horse galloping up Whitehall?

Was that the sound of the workers singing the “Marseillaise” as Lenin’s sealed train rolled into the District and Circle line platform at Westminster station? Could that have been Haile Selassie, raising the standard of the Lion of Judah over the exit door of Caffe Nero? 



Were they here, bright eyes fixed on the horizon of history, listening to the same old wearied drivel from the Wetherspoons guy? Did they actually turn up to this, the Night of a Thousand Swans and Angels? Did they see The Dawn of the Moon Under Water? (Historians take note: other potential sobriquets can be found on the “Pub Locator” tab of jdwetherspoon.com.)

Mahatma Gandhi really was here, as was Nelson Mandela, albeit both cast in bronze and standing as ever on the perimeter of Parliament Square.

One man – topless of course – even injured his elbow on Madiba’s outstretched hand as he rose with carefree haste to exalt the soaring oratory of The Apprentice’s Michelle Dewberry. About the builder of the rainbow nation’s feet were three discarded cans of Strongbow Dark Fruit. No long walk to freedom is complete without a quick dash to Tesco Metro.

What on earth would those men have made of the occasion? Actual Great Britain, the cradle of empire once, roaring its pissy breath into the night air in phoney celebration of regaining an independence it had never lost?

Brexit celebrations in Parliament Square
Show all 37
 



Of course, now is the time that we must come together as a nation. We must start the healing. The grievances of yesteryear must be set aside. But there is also, somewhere in the recesses of my mind, some half-remembered obligation for a writer to have the courage to tell the truth. So it is with a genuine sense of sorrow that I must report that on Friday 31 January, between the hours of 9pm and 11pm, Westminster’s Parliament Square played host to a static, knuckle dragging carnival of the irredeemably stupid.

Shirtless men clambered over the statue of Churchill. For some bizarre reason, part of the warm-up act involved playing parts of an old Michael Cockerell documentary on Britain’s history with the EU. “F*** off John Major, you c***!” shouted one man when the former prime minister appeared on screen. “He should be hanging by his f****** neck!” the same man shouted at Tony Blair.

(Later, they cheered arch Leave campaigner Tony Benn, then booed Jeremy Corbyn. That will have cut Magic Grandpa to the bone.)


They absolutely revelled in it. It wasn’t merely that a singalong to “Rule Britannia”, with the words appearing on a giant screen, was infinitely beyond them. (“The azure what? Az-u main? What’s this? I don’t know thi – RULE BRITANNIA! BRITANNIA RULES THE WAVES!” Entirely verbatim quote, that one).

At one point, when they tried to get the crowd to join in with “Land of Hope and Glory”, the three on-stage singers were so poor that the crowd refused to join in in protest.

Nigel Farage was there, obviously, calling it “the greatest moment in our nation’s modern history.”

Well if it was the greatest moment in our nation’s modern history, it is a matter of public record that the best Farage could find to help him usher it in was a very strange man called Dominic Frisby, singing a very strange song called “17 Million F*** Offs.”

The list of people “the British told to f*** off” was long indeed.

“The IMF, the treasury, Tony Blair, John Major, Femi Weirdo, Jess Philips, George Osborne.” It went on and on and on. By the time it got to the end, the 17 million f*** offs may even have found themselves outnumbered. Whether, in fact the IMF, the Treasury, Tony Blair and absolutely everybody else will, in the end, turn out to have been right, and this lot wrong, is as close to a certainty as anything in politics can possibly be.

But for now, we must go through the motions. Dance the dance. By the time the final countdown came you could scarcely get on to Whitehall. There were thousands there. Not many thousands, but thousands certainly.

I’ve listened back now to the sound on my dictaphone that records Britain’s moment of liberation and it goes exactly like this: “Ten! Nine! Eight! Seven! Six! Five! Four! Three! Two! One! FREEDOM!!!! YEAAAASSSS!!!! F****** FREEDOM!!!! WE F****** DID IT!!! F****** FREEDOM!!! F****** DO ONE!! F****** DO ONE!!!!”
 
Leave voters mark Brexit with raucous celebration in Parliament Square
It seems as worthy a catch phrase of the moment as anything else. F****** do one! Who exactly? Absolutely everyone. It doesn’t matter. Just f****** do one. Put that, as they say, on the side of the bus.

Of course, what makes Britain’s independence day different from most, though not all, that have gone before it is that its prize is a freedom nobody else wants. When a Tunisian fruit and vegetable stallholder set himself on fire in January 2011, he lit a blaze of hope that ripped through the Middle East and north Africa.

When Britain set itself on fire three and a half years ago, the very best that can be hoped for is that someone, somewhere made £250 sending the footage to You’ve Been Framed.

We have become the first country to throw off the yoke of an oppressor whom nobody else considers themselves oppressed by. We have won our freedom from our own imagined nightmares. We have liberated ourselves from the terrors of the monster under the bed that was never there. We are the children that never grew up.

It is a great pity that of the many thousands of bells that were present, only one should have had its noise-making capacity removed. Between them, Brexiteers raised more than £100,000 in a fruitless quest to have Big Ben’s clapper temporarily restored to bong us out into the cold. How much might remainers have paid to silence Farage for the night, if not for all eternity?

Too late now. His supporters went wild for him, naturally. “Nigel! Nigel! Nigel! Nigel!” It’s an unlikely name for a hero.

Before him there’d been Ann Widdecombe, fresh from marching out of the EU parliament two nights ago, saying it was “like storming up the beaches again”. She’s never stormed up any beaches. She’s only 72. Which is young enough, it turns out, to stand on a stage in Parliament Square and ululate away about “the glorious future that awaits us” – the one she has forced on the nation’s young entirely against their wishes. 

There was Tim Martin of Wetherspoons, saying in all seriousness that “our victory is not a victory against the people of Europe. They are our friends. It is a victory over the institutions of the European Union”. Tim Martin, for the record, banned all European-produced drinks from his pubs. So there’s that.

“At 11pm tonight, there is no such thing as leavers and remainers,” Dewberry told the crowd. “We are all leavers now.” I think the reply to that one comes in the form of a song you might call "16.8 Million F*** Offs."

What next then? Come together? Move on. You can close your eyes and hope for it, but you’ll not find any evidence that it can actually be done.

Brexit’s ultimate tragedy is that it has broken the very thing it imagines itself to have restored: national identity, national cohesion. There is none at all. There are just two huge tribes set against each other, and the mutual loathing is as fierce as ever.

Read more
 
Leave voters mark Brexit with raucous celebration in Parliament Square
 
Brexit news – live: Protests and celebrations set to mark UK exit
 
Dutch government account tweets ‘English boycott’ poll over Brexit
 
Our best hope post-Brexit is a more liberal younger generation
 
Brexit in 47 objects: From leaky mugs to salted caramel milkshake
 
Leave voters mark Brexit with raucous celebration in Parliament Square
There simply isn’t any middle ground. The gulf is as wide as it has ever been: one side revels in regaining its imagined independence, while the other mourns the terrible loss of having been part of something big, something ambitious, with its eyes fixed on the future and not drunk on the imagined glories of the past.

We simply do not have more in common than that which divides us. It is an irreconcilable, fundamental rift that goes to the core of everything everyone on either side believes. There will be no moving on. For 10 years or more, all the nation’s fortunes will be tied back to this event.

What happens, say, when another huge financial crisis hits, lives and livelihoods damaged? Half the country will blame the other half for the vast economic growth squandered to Brexit. We won’t move on. We can’t.

The prime minister urges healing – but he is the disease, not the cure. What do we do next? Are we to accept defeat, make peace, all the while knowing that, were the shoe on the other foot, Farage and company would be doing absolutely nothing of the sort?

Are we really expected to get on board with this farce? To look upon this absurd, imagined liberation and try to see the good in it when there is simply nothing good there?

With his final words, as well, Farage hinted at the next chapter of the story. Urging other countries to follow Britain’s example, to leave the EU, to become “free nation states, trading, co-operating”. Go back to the old days, in other words, and try to ignore that the old days are absolutely drenched in blood. That preventing the old days ever coming back is the precise reason the EU came into being.

These people really do think it’s 1989, or the Arab Spring, that Frisby is their Vaclav Havel. They think the blue touchpaper has been lit, except for the fact that our neighbours are not rising up but glancing up to look upon us with embarrassed pity at our own crushing stupidity.

There is simply no way anyone of good conscience can make peace with being so very clearly on the wrong side of history.

Come together? Sorry, but no thanks. The long walk back to sanity starts now. Who knows, it might even be a surprisingly short one.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-nigel-farage-parliament-square-a9312436.html
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2020, 10:20:10 AM
Some people (like Tom Peck) will never learn. Being scathing about those who voted to leave the EU didn't work after the result of the referendum was announced and it's not going to work now.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2020, 10:34:07 AM
Some people (like Tom Peck) will never learn. Being scathing about those who voted to leave the EU didn't work after the result of the referendum was announced and it's not going to work now.

It's not a question of being scathing about those who voted to leave.
My husband was one of the 32% of Scottish voters who voted to leave.
He did not "celebrate" last night.
This morning when he watched the television snippets of last night's London celebration he remarked that he found it all a bit tasteless.
It was an embarrassment. IMO.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 01, 2020, 03:04:15 PM
It's not a question of being scathing about those who voted to leave.
My husband was one of the 32% of Scottish voters who voted to leave.
He did not "celebrate" last night.
This morning when he watched the television snippets of last night's London celebration he remarked that he found it all a bit tasteless.
It was an embarrassment. IMO.

Tom Peck was being scathing. "three discarded cans of Strongbow Dark Fruit" " a static, knuckle dragging carnival of the irredeemably stupid."
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2020, 04:08:25 PM
Tom Peck was being scathing. "three discarded cans of Strongbow Dark Fruit" " a static, knuckle dragging carnival of the irredeemably stupid."

His opinion of some of those celebrating last night.
It is possible to be scathingly truthful or truthfully scathing.
Is it not?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 01, 2020, 05:16:34 PM
Tom Peck was being scathing. "three discarded cans of Strongbow Dark Fruit" " a static, knuckle dragging carnival of the irredeemably stupid."
But he’s not wrong.  Did you not see the scenes?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on February 01, 2020, 07:16:09 PM
I think a lot of people are going to suffer a major bout of disillusionment and disappointment when they discover that nothing much changes post Brexit and that life plods on unremarkably for the average Joe and Joanna.

Ah but things will change slowly and for the better. At least now that the EU has been shown the door, we can start to take back the powers to control our own country, our institutions, our military and our immigration policies.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 01, 2020, 07:25:21 PM
Ah but things will change slowly and for the better. At least now that the EU has been shown the door, we can start to take back the powers to control our own country, our institutions, our military and our immigration policies.
I really wish I shared your belief in our politicians to deliver in all of those areas.  I don’t see any real grounds for such optimism but so much depends on what happens in the next 11 months.  All we can do is wait and see.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 01, 2020, 07:30:51 PM
Ah but things will change slowly and for the better. At least now that the EU has been shown the door, we can start to take back the powers to control our own country, our institutions, our military and our immigration policies.

With the further rolling out of austerity we’ll be lucky to have any institutions or military left. As to immigration didn’t you take full advantage of free movement within the EU ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on February 01, 2020, 07:56:54 PM
With the further rolling out of austerity we’ll be lucky to have any institutions or military left. As to immigration didn’t you take full advantage of free movement within the EU ?

With the £billions we will now save after leaving the EU I would suggest our institutions and military will be just fine. Free movement within the EU is one thing but immigration from out with the EU is something else and must be controlled. With any luck, gone will be the days very soon when any old immigrant in a row boat can paddle partway across the English Channel and claim asylum.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 01, 2020, 08:11:41 PM
With the £billions we will now save after leaving the EU I would suggest our institutions and military will be just fine. Free movement within the EU is one thing but immigration from out with the EU is something else and must be controlled. With any luck, gone will be the days very soon when any old immigrant in a row boat can paddle partway across the English Channel and claim asylum.

But wasn’t the immigration you were talking about from inside the EU ? Why would immigration outside of the EU change in any way under another Tory government? There was always quotas. Of course the cuts to the security at ports that we have seen over the last ten years won’t help.

You went to Spain for a better life yet seek to deny others the same chance. Why is that?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: John on February 01, 2020, 08:44:50 PM
But wasn’t the immigration you were talking about from inside the EU ? Why would immigration outside of the EU change in any way under another Tory government? There was always quotas. Of course the cuts to the security at ports that we have seen over the last ten years won’t help.

You went to Spain for a better life yet seek to deny others the same chance. Why is that?

Current Tory policy is to repatriate non EU immigrants where possible and now that we are no longer in the EU that policy can start to be implemented.

Spain has been destroyed by its membership of the EU, prices have soared, youth unemployment is running at 20℅, property values have tumbled, so it is only a matter of time before they too leave. The UK is leading the way, others will follow, the Euro experiment has failed.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 01, 2020, 09:46:52 PM
Current Tory policy is to repatriate non EU immigrants where possible and now that we are no longer in the EU that policy can start to be implemented.

Spain has been destroyed by its membership of the EU, prices have soared, youth unemployment is running at 20℅, property values have tumbled, so it is only a matter of time before they too leave. The UK is leading the way, others will follow, the Euro experiment has failed.
If that is true then how did being a member of the EU prevent us from doing so at any point in the last 10 years?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 01, 2020, 10:00:37 PM
Current Tory policy is to repatriate non EU immigrants where possible and now that we are no longer in the EU that policy can start to be implemented.

Spain has been destroyed by its membership of the EU, prices have soared, youth unemployment is running at 20℅, property values have tumbled, so it is only a matter of time before they too leave. The UK is leading the way, others will follow, the Euro experiment has failed.

Non EU immigrants could always be repatriated...haven’t you heard of the hostile environment?

I noticed you didn’t answer my question...why do you want to deny others a better life when you were given that choice ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2020, 10:43:38 PM
Current Tory policy is to repatriate non EU immigrants where possible and now that we are no longer in the EU that policy can start to be implemented.

Spain has been destroyed by its membership of the EU, prices have soared, youth unemployment is running at 20℅, property values have tumbled, so it is only a matter of time before they too leave. The UK is leading the way, others will follow, the Euro experiment has failed.

Has the Spanish government any culpability in the decline of their economy?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 01, 2020, 10:51:32 PM
That was the past.
Recent events have altered the opinion of many.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that one of the rallying calls for those who opposed Independence was that Scotland would no longer be in the EU.
Many voted no because we would lose our membership of the EU, including our youngest son who now campaigns for Independence.
I'm sure you can understand the frustration he and his daughter and many others now feel.
Today we leave inspite of our majority vote to stay.
And if Boris continues to smirk at every SNP Westminster politician's speech then he will further increase the frustration of many here!


You have absolutely NO IDEA who voted and why they voted so to pretend you do is a bit silly really.
 THERE WAS NO MANDATE FROM THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE TO ASK FOR  INDY#2 at the GENERAL election.
 none,nada, ziltch  not a one. Talk about making the story fit your agenda...



SNP should be dealing with real issues in this country not wasting bloody time talking about not waving a EU flag fgs.   Your granddaughter is not owed anything by me- tell her to make her own life like me and my family as many others have done! 

Oh and while you and your EU lovers await that great indyref#2  why not read the REAL Lisbon treaty which comes into effect next year? which the Irish people rejected TWICE only to be over ruled by their superiors - the unelected EU commissioners. bless em.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2020, 11:06:46 PM

You have absolutely NO IDEA who voted and why they voted so to pretend you do is a bit silly really.
 THERE WAS NO MANDATE FROM THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE TO ASK FOR  INDY#2 at the GENERAL election.
 none,nada, ziltch  not a one. Talk about making the story fit your agenda...



SNP should be dealing with real issues in this country not wasting bloody time talking about not waving a EU flag fgs.   Your granddaughter is not owed anything by me- tell her to make her own life like me and my family as many others have done! 

Oh and while you and your EU lovers await that great indyref#2  why not read the REAL Lisbon treaty which comes into effect next year? which the Irish people rejected TWICE only to be over ruled by their superiors - the unelected EU commissioners. bless em.

Why are you always so irate?

My granddaughter is making her own life.
Passed 8 National Fives last year, all at band A.
Sitting five Highers this year and will continue to study in sixth year.
She is very interested in politics.
She is also articulate, kind, polite, sociable, vegetarian and very pretty.

Scotland voted 62% to remain in the EU.
In the General Election 46 SNP members were elected to the Westminster Parliament.




Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 01, 2020, 11:20:33 PM
Why are you always so irate?

My granddaughter is making her own life.
Passed 8 National Fives last year, all at band A.
Sitting five Highers this year and will continue to study in sixth year.
She is very interested in politics.
She is also articulate, kind, polite, sociable, vegetarian and very pretty.

Scotland voted 62% to remain in the EU.
In the General Election 46 SNP members were elected to the Westminster Parliament.


It should be my family and I.

"In the General Election 46 SNP members were elected to the Westminster Parliament."

and?...

Well, perhaps your very clever, vegetarian, straight A granddaughter who is interested in politics,can work out all by her self that this is NOT a mandate for Independence- or maybe not?

I am never Irate. I have nothing to be irate about. You are reading my posts looking for fault because you dislike me- I get that and laugh it off because you do make me laugh out loud.


She may also be able to work out, all by herself, about the Independence she craves regarding the fiscal problems and location of the EU- passing through English waters and airspace- for imports and exports. logistics and fiscal  just two week words.  Oh and the Lisbon Treaty...once in place her vote will mean NOTHING. All political decisions including laws will be decided by a few un elected  foreigners...bigger and nastier than ole Westminster. I bet you all can't wait.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2020, 11:28:58 PM
"In the General Election 46 SNP members were elected to the Westminster Parliament."

and?...

Well, perhaps your very clever, vegetarian, straight A granddaughter who is interested in politics,can work out all by her self that this is NOT a mandate for Independence- or maybe not?

I am never Irate. I have nothing to be irate about. You are reading my posts looking for fault because you dislike me- I get that and laugh it off because you do make me laugh out loud.


She may also be able to work out, all by herself, about the Independence she craves regarding the fiscal problems and location of the EU- passing through English waters and airspace- for imports and exports. logistics and fiscal  just two week words.  Oh and the Lisbon Treaty...once in place her vote will mean NOTHING. All political decisions including laws will be decided by a few un elected  foreigners...bigger and nastier than ole Westminster. I bet you all can't wait.

I don't read your posts looking for fault and why would I dislike you but you do always seem very angry with my posts.
You may not like the idea of  Independence for Scotland but perhaps you may have to.
I hope this post make you laugh out loud.
Wouldn't want to disappoint you.
PS.
I see the largest trade union in Scotland, Unison, is now supporting a second referendum.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 01, 2020, 11:39:47 PM
I don't read your posts looking for fault and why would I dislike you but you do always seem very angry with my posts.
You may not like the idea of  Independence for Scotland but perhaps you may have to.
I hope this post make you laugh out loud.
Wouldn't want to disappoint you.
PS.
I see the largest trade union in Scotland, Unison, is now supporting a second referendum.

I think it’s the inevitable outcome of Cameron’s lies and being ignored by two consecutive Tory governments. Isn't it ironic that the self-proclaimed Conservative And Unionist Party possibly have done more to break Britain asunder since the Union than any other party.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 01, 2020, 11:42:29 PM
I think it’s the inevitable outcome of Cameron’s lies and being ignored by two consecutive Tory governments. Isn't it ironic that the self-proclaimed Conservative And Unionist Party possibly have done more to break Britain asunder since the Union than any other party.

And Boris continues to press the self destruct Union button.
Long may he continue to do so.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 01, 2020, 11:58:06 PM
And Boris continues to press the self destruct Union button.
Long may he continue to do so.

Unfortunately a referendum is still in his gift.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 02, 2020, 12:18:41 AM
Unfortunately a referendum is still in his gift.

Indeed it is.
And the longer he deems not to grant that gift....Is all to the good.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 02, 2020, 12:23:20 AM
Indeed it is.
And the longer he deems not to grant that gift....Is all to the good.

I do hope that you are right.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 02, 2020, 12:39:27 AM
I don't read your posts looking for fault and why would I dislike you but you do always seem very angry with my posts.
You may not like the idea of  Independence for Scotland but perhaps you may have to.
I hope this post make you laugh out loud.
Wouldn't want to disappoint you.
PS.
I see the largest trade union in Scotland, Unison, is now supporting a second referendum.


I find your ignorance of the EU agenda to be astonishing, I find the blame game on the English to be tiresome. I am asking hard questions about the future my country and you and SOME SNP candidates and voters only want to play point scoring.

Answer the questions- tell me what I am missing -I have a good debating skill I will listen intently, but if all you have is  'bloody tories' and 'bloody boris' and 'bloody English'  then forget it.

It may surprise you that I know of three SNP candidates voted for Brexit AND stay in the union! AND they are afraid to admit it it publicly -as the SNP do not like anyone who disagrees with queen of Scotland sturgeon.

How many Tory seats were lost to SNP in Scotland? How many Labour?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 02, 2020, 04:01:51 AM

I find your ignorance of the EU agenda to be astonishing, I find the blame game on the English to be tiresome. I am asking hard questions about the future my country and you and SOME SNP candidates and voters only want to play point scoring.

Answer the questions- tell me what I am missing -I have a good debating skill I will listen intently, but if all you have is  'bloody tories' and 'bloody boris' and 'bloody English'  then forget it.

It may surprise you that I know of three SNP candidates voted for Brexit AND stay in the union! AND they are afraid to admit it it publicly -as the SNP do not like anyone who disagrees with queen of Scotland sturgeon.

How many Tory seats were lost to SNP in Scotland? How many Labour?

"Good debating skills" ?
I don't think so.
You become irate and insulting and make false accusations.
You certainly don't "listen intently"!
If you did, you would not have reached the ridiculous conclusions which are in your posts.


Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 02, 2020, 04:59:52 AM
I do hope that you are right.

Much as I hope there will be another Independence referendum, I don't think it should be within the next two years..
It's an interesting and much changing political landscape here.
Some of our friends both from steadfast Conservative and Labour backgrounds have now altered their political allegiance and would vote yes.
Within our family there is a member who voted no last time because we would be out of Europe but will now vote yes and one member who voted yes last time because he wanted out of Europe and is now reconsidering any future vote.
Interesting times ahead!

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 03, 2020, 04:32:57 PM
"Good debating skills" ?
I don't think so.
You become irate and insulting and make false accusations.
You certainly don't "listen intently"!
If you did, you would not have reached the ridiculous conclusions which are in your posts.


I never get irate- that is your feeble opinion.
False accusation?  OK.name and shame!

My debating skill are absent due to the facts you have not provided your case within your 'argument'

So please continue... enlighten me with your knowledge and that of your granddaughter, about the fiscal and trade with Eu will be explained.  Not sure? just ask Nickie  she would love to assist you with us ignorant, plebby types.

You are calling the Lisbon Treaty a good thing after you read it? OK fairynuff.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 03, 2020, 06:45:07 PM

I never get irate- that is your feeble opinion.
False accusation?  OK.name and shame!

My debating skill are absent due to the facts you have not provided your case within your 'argument'

So please continue... enlighten me with your knowledge and that of your granddaughter, about the fiscal and trade with Eu will be explained.  Not sure? just ask Nickie  she would love to assist you with us ignorant, plebby types.

You are calling the Lisbon Treaty a good thing after you read it? OK fairynuff.

You do appear to get very irate when posting at times. IMO.
Not tonight. A much more rational post apart from the usual insult.
Is your query about the fiscal and trade with the EU relate to the fact that the UK now has to renegotiate our trading agreements with Europe?
The false and ridiculous accusation is that I and others support Independence because we hate b****y Boris and the b****y English.
An utterly ridiculous suggestion.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 03, 2020, 06:53:53 PM
You do appear to get very irate when posting at times. IMO.
Not tonight. A much more rational post apart from the usual insult.
Is your query about the fiscal and trade with the EU relate to the fact that the UK now has to renegotiate our trading agreements with Europe?
The false and ridiculous accusation is that I and others support Independence because we hate b****y Boris and the b****y English.
An utterly ridiculous suggestion.


The questions relate to independence from England.  Nothing to do with Brexit. What will we do for currency and trade ie imports and exports via England?  Oh I don't think so. The EU and England can and will shut it's borders.

There is a very anti English voice within the SNP deny it all you want-   mainly ' we don't want to be ruled by the English' but want to be ruled by non elected bureaucrats in the EU. OK fine, but say it like it is and not a dream about  freedom! cos you aint gonna have any of that nonsense with the Lisbon Treaty.

Now: let me hear your argument- thank you in my non irate voice. :)

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 03, 2020, 07:09:36 PM

The questions relate to independence from England.  Nothing to do with Brexit. What will we do for currency and trade ie imports and exports via England?  Oh I don't think so. The EU and England can and will shut it's borders.

There is a very anti English voice within the SNP deny it all you want-   mainly ' we don't want to be ruled by the English' but want to be ruled by non elected bureaucrats in the EU. OK fine, but say it like it is and not a dream about  freedom! cos you aint gonna have any of that nonsense with the Lisbon Treaty.

Now: let me hear your argument- thank you in my non irate voice. :)

I agree I don't want to be ruled by whatever the electorate of English voters choose to put in their ballot boxes.
You obviously do.
However many here and especially our young people have realised  their votes  count for nothing.
No anti English dislike or hatred, just a desire to hope that when they put their vote in a ballot box, it could even possibly and remotely result in what they wish for.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 03, 2020, 07:36:12 PM
I agree I don't want to be ruled by whatever the electorate of English voters choose to put in their ballot boxes.
You obviously do.
However many here and especially our young people have realised  their votes  count for nothing.
No anti English dislike or hatred, just a desire to hope that when they put their vote in a ballot box, it could even possibly and remotely result in what they wish for.

OK.. let us discuss this since you do not have an argument.

The Scottish people have a great affiliation with the rest of the UK. we fought wars,created wealth together. we share a lot in common with regards to community.

 The Scottish have MP's who can challenge the government on many issues which they do, regularly, sometimes it is good causes other times just'victim' rhetoric.
The Scots were have their own parliament and laws, they can vote MSP's in our out.   

note this WE CAN VOTE. in general elections to make changes.  You yourself have made stupid claims about Scotland not wanting brexit via a vote (which the Scots never had in A STAND ALONE REMIT).

What is it your grandaugher and her young 'victim' oppressed by the English friends want? a vote to make a change?

"However many here and especially our young people have realised  their votes  count for nothing"



READ THE LISBON TREATY!  and stop with the opinions.  tell me what it is I am missing in this wonderland you present?  If it is about voting and being listened to then...you are on a loser there.

The Irish people voted against it TWICE and it was imposed on them anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 03, 2020, 07:50:50 PM
OK.. let us discuss this since you do not have an argument.

The Scottish people have a great affiliation with the rest of the UK. we fought wars,created wealth together. we share a lot in common with regards to community.

 The Scottish have MP's who can challenge the government on many issues which they do, regularly, sometimes it is good causes other times just'victim' rhetoric.
The Scots were have their own parliament and laws, they can vote MSP's in our out.   

note this WE CAN VOTE. in general elections to make changes.  You yourself have made stupid claims about Scotland not wanting brexit via a vote (which the Scots never had in A STAND ALONE REMIT).

What is it your grandaugher and her young 'victim' oppressed by the English friends want? a vote to make a change?

"However many here and especially our young people have realised  their votes  count for nothing"



READ THE LISBON TREATY!  and stop with the opinions.  tell me what it is I am missing in this wonderland you present?  If it is about voting and being listened to then...you are on a loser there.

The Irish people voted against it TWICE and it was imposed on them anyway.

So not bothered when you vote in the next UK election or UK referendum that your vote means zilch?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2020, 12:34:55 AM
So not bothered when you vote in the next UK election or UK referendum that your vote means zilch?

If the Scots get another referendum and vote to leave the UK they will be alone. The overspending by their devolved government means they are not eligible for EU membership. The austerity imposed on the rest of the UK will pale into insignificance compared with what the Scottish will have to face to balance their books imo.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 04, 2020, 12:49:28 AM
If the Scots get another referendum and vote to leave the UK they will be alone. The overspending by their devolved government means they are not eligible for EU membership. The austerity imposed on the rest of the UK will pale into insignificance compared with what the Scottish will have to face to balance their books imo.

Just in your opinion .
Well not to worry then. *%^^&

To add.
Opinion poll now indicating 50 %  would now vote for Independence.
A few years from now that will increase.
Quite content to wait..
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on February 04, 2020, 01:13:35 AM
So not bothered when you vote in the next UK election or UK referendum that your vote means zilch?

In the hypothetical event of an independent Scotland which has joined the EU, what would you expect the value of your vote to be in any election?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 04, 2020, 01:16:48 AM
In the hypothetical event of an independent Scotland which has joined the EU, what would you expect the value of your vote to be in any election?

Much the same as any French citizen, Spanish citizen, Italian citizen,  in any of their vote in their own election to form their own government.??

Not too sure of which type of election you are referring to.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on February 04, 2020, 01:48:18 AM
Much the same as any French citizen, Spanish citizen, Italian citizen,  in any of their vote in their own election to form their own government.??

Not too sure of which type of election you are referring to.

Those European countries have been independent for years and have their own constitutions. Scotland only has certain devolved powers at present which don't include immigration, trade & industry & defence. What will your vote be worth if your presiding government achieve independence from UK & then underwrite a constitution broadly unacceptable to the electorate but in line with EU requirements for membership?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 04, 2020, 07:41:41 AM
Those European countries have been independent for years and have their own constitutions. Scotland only has certain devolved powers at present which don't include immigration, trade & industry & defence. What will your vote be worth if your presiding government achieve independence from UK & then underwrite a constitution broadly unacceptable to the electorate but in line with EU requirements for membership?

When did Ireland gain independence?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: misty on February 04, 2020, 05:01:11 PM
When did Ireland gain independence?

Are you referring to the Irish Republic, where votes in referendums regarding the Nice & Lisbon treaties returned a negative result but were subsequently ignored/overturned by the government?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Erngath on February 04, 2020, 07:24:38 PM
Are you referring to the Irish Republic, where votes in referendums regarding the Nice & Lisbon treaties returned a negative result but were subsequently ignored/overturned by the government?

Much like our votes here are ignored by.Westminster.
I read that Boris has said there is no need for the Scottish government to be.represented at any future discussions about trade etc .post Brexit.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 04, 2020, 07:44:44 PM
Just in your opinion .
Well not to worry then. *%^^&

To add.
Opinion poll now indicating 50 %  would now vote for Independence.
A few years from now that will increase.
Quite content to wait..

We have discussed this already.  Opinion polls do make a dream come true, or break a heart- we do not know about the integrity of the data sets used.  so that is a moot point.

I note you are not too keen to hear the truth about the  details regarding the Scottish economy- sure, fine but you wanted the debate.
 You are hanging on to the lose rope at the end of a cliff called Nicks sturgeons dreams. she is selling you an empty bucket!
 I want to hear the actual reasons for independence I want to be convinced that the Scottish people will be beneficiaries  so why don't you share it with us OR has Nick not mentioned these little important facts?




"So not bothered when you vote in the next UK election or UK referendum that your vote means zilch?"

Only one  party will win- so I may chose the one that doesn't win- so what. At least the Scottish reps have a say in TWO parliaments. Don't forget Scottish MPs vote down English issues and they can't with ours!
AND count with both hands how many Scottish Prime Ministers have we had in No 10?


Your supposed sovereignty as an independent state (Scotland) will have no choices or votes which will mean nothing- I have mentioned Ireland, but other countries have also been over ruled by non elected EU staff.

Mention that to your 'voter friends'.

Will someone please save us from know- it -all teenagers like Greta and Scottish teenagers demanding Independence- who know nothing of what they rant about.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 04, 2020, 10:11:15 PM
If the Scottish people are keen to cut ties with the UK then that's OK by me. I have known many Scottish people and like them very much, but if they want to go I see no point in keeping them in the UK. I think they're making a mistake, but the only way for them to realise might be to let them try going it alone. After all, those who wish to remain as UK citizens can always move south.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 04, 2020, 10:16:05 PM
If the Scottish people are keen to cut ties with the UK then that's OK by me. I have known many Scottish people and like them very much, but if they want to go I see no point in keeping them in the UK. I think they're making a mistake, but the only way for them to realise might be to let them try going it alone. After all, those who wish to remain as UK citizens can always move south.

Substitute the EU for the U.K. and U.K. for Scotland and that’s how I feel about Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on February 04, 2020, 10:33:39 PM

Brexit is probably my second favourite political event of all time.
Second only to the election of Donald Trump.
2016 to 2020 has been like Christmas every day to me.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 04, 2020, 10:35:47 PM
Brexit is probably my second favourite political event of all time.
Second only to the election of Donald Trump.
2016 to 2020 has been like Christmas every day to me.

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 04, 2020, 10:38:30 PM
If the Scottish people are keen to cut ties with the UK then that's OK by me. I have known many Scottish people and like them very much, but if they want to go I see no point in keeping them in the UK. I think they're making a mistake, but the only way for them to realise might be to let them try going it alone. After all, those who wish to remain as UK citizens can always move south.

We have property abroad ,so we can up and go if needs be.

  My brother lives in the EU he is convinced other countries will follow when they feel the weight of the Lisbon Treaty.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 04, 2020, 10:41:53 PM
Found this post interesting from Angelo in July 2016.

‘As predicted, Tory MP's heading off to the four corners of the world to do trade deals...Wonderful stuff!!

Well played Theresa   8@??)(   Onwards and upwards!!’

Roll on 2023....let’s see how Johnson’s popularity fairs.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 04, 2020, 10:45:16 PM
Found this post interesting from Angelo in July 2016.

‘As predicted, Tory MP's heading off to the four corners of the world to do trade deals...Wonderful stuff!!

Well played Theresa   8@??)(   Onwards and upwards!!’

Roll on 2023....let’s see how Johnson’s popularity fairs.
All PMs popularity deserts them sooner or later, that’s a well-known fact.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 04, 2020, 10:49:38 PM
All PMs popularity deserts them sooner or later, that’s a well-known fact.

Yes, everyone has their sell by date... it is all bitching and backstabbing in  party politics!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 04, 2020, 10:54:52 PM
All PMs popularity deserts them sooner or later, that’s a well-known fact.

Let’s hope with Johnson it’s sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 04, 2020, 11:00:01 PM
Let’s hope with Johnson it’s sooner rather than later.
I can’t stand Boris personally, but as he is now in charge we have to hope he does a reasonably good job, and if he does that means his popularity is likely to wane later rather than sooner.  The last thing this country needs now is more poliitcal turmoil and upheaval imo. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 04, 2020, 11:02:03 PM
I can’t stand Boris personally, but as he is now in charge we have to hope he does a reasonably good job, and if he does that means his popularity is likely to wane later rather than sooner.  The last thing this country needs now is more poliitcal turmoil and upheaval imo.

Then I’m afraid the country will be disappointed because that’s what you get with Johnson.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on February 04, 2020, 11:09:23 PM
The Blair/Brown Government did a whole lot worse than BOJO-than anyone . I see Blair and his crew as slimy money grabbing rats.

Bojo has yet to give me cause for rage- I am holding onto it for now...

1 banana 2 banana 3....
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 04, 2020, 11:26:11 PM
The Blair/Brown Government did a whole lot worse than BOJO-than anyone . I see Blair and his crew as slimy money grabbing rats.

Bojo has yet to give me cause for rage- I am holding onto it for now...

1 banana 2 banana 3....

I absolutely agree about Blair but don’t forget Johnson threw his full support behind both Cameron and May while they were cleaving their way through not only welfare safety nets but savage cuts to our most needed public services. Let’s not indulge in the amnesia which for Johnson has resulted in forgetting his part in the  last 10 years of a brutal Tory government.

Anyway, if nothing else awarding Duncan-Smith with a knighthood should be enough to exile him to the political wilderness.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 05, 2020, 01:32:09 AM
I absolutely agree about Blair but don’t forget Johnson threw his full support behind both Cameron and May while they were cleaving their way through not only welfare safety nets but savage cuts to our most needed public services. Let’s not indulge in the amnesia which for Johnson has resulted in forgetting his part in the  last 10 years of a brutal Tory government.

Anyway, if nothing else awarding Duncan-Smith with a knighthood should be enough to exile him to the political wilderness.

Johnson wanted to leave the EU and it was due to Labour voters voting Conservative that he got the majority he needed to make it happen. Perhaps he'll bear that in mind.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 05, 2020, 07:23:50 AM
I absolutely agree about Blair but don’t forget Johnson threw his full support behind both Cameron and May while they were cleaving their way through not only welfare safety nets but savage cuts to our most needed public services. Let’s not indulge in the amnesia which for Johnson has resulted in forgetting his part in the  last 10 years of a brutal Tory government.

Anyway, if nothing else awarding Duncan-Smith with a knighthood should be enough to exile him to the political wilderness.
Who were you voting for the three times Blair won his majorities?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 05, 2020, 08:25:08 AM
Johnson wanted to leave the EU and it was due to Labour voters voting Conservative that he got the majority he needed to make it happen. Perhaps he'll bear that in mind.

You think ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 05, 2020, 08:26:16 AM
Who were you voting for the three times Blair won his majorities?

I didn’t.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 05, 2020, 09:03:13 AM
I didn’t.
I’ll never understand people who don’t use their vote, particularly women (for whom so many sacrifices were made to win it) and then have the temerity to criticise governments they neither voted for or against.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 05, 2020, 09:06:59 AM
I’ll never understand people who don’t use their vote, particularly women (for whom so many sacrifices were made to win it) and then have the temerity to criticise governments they neither voted for or against.

So are you saying vote anyone....even though you don’t believe in their message....as long as you vote ?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 05, 2020, 09:20:17 AM
So are you saying vote anyone....even though you don’t believe in their message....as long as you vote ?
You vote for the MP that you believe will do the best job for your constituency.  Did it not occur to you that without votes from people who didn’t agree with all Tony Blair’s policies but who voted for the local labour politician anyway, MPs like Corbyn, McDonnell, Skinner etc would never have had careers in the HoC? 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on February 05, 2020, 09:35:04 AM
You vote for the MP that you believe will do the best job for your constituency.  Did it not occur to you that without votes from people who didn’t agree with all Tony Blair’s policies but who voted for the local labour politician anyway, MPs like Corbyn, McDonnell, Skinner etc would never have had careers in the HoC?

Gosh, no it didn’t ! Thanks for pointing that out.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on February 05, 2020, 09:49:10 AM
Gosh, no it didn’t ! Thanks for pointing that out.
You’re welcome. 
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: G-Unit on February 05, 2020, 12:16:00 PM
You think ?

I can only hope.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 15, 2020, 02:55:19 PM
Fruit-pickers flown in from Romania after Brits failed to answer call for help

A charter flight of around 180 Romanian workers is set to land at Stansted Airport tomorrow to fill vacancies at UK farms amid the coronavirus crisis. The plane is the first of up to six to arrive in the coming months so that farms stay staffed with labourers. Country Land & Business Association has warned that farms could be short staffed due to coronavirus travel restrictions. There have been calls for Brits to step up and fill the gaps – but although many people made unemployed during the lockdown have come forward, it is not enough to fill all vacancies, according to the Times.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/15/fruit-pickers-flown-romania-brits-failed-answer-call-help-12559562/?ito=twitter

The Times article:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-pickers-flown-in-to-plug-farmwork-gap-vvglpxks2?wgu=270525_54264_15869587998654_73aed12aea&wgexpiry=1594734799&utm_source=planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=22278

Can't afford a subscription to read the whole article, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2020, 03:26:55 PM
Fruit-pickers flown in from Romania after Brits failed to answer call for help

A charter flight of around 180 Romanian workers is set to land at Stansted Airport tomorrow to fill vacancies at UK farms amid the coronavirus crisis. The plane is the first of up to six to arrive in the coming months so that farms stay staffed with labourers. Country Land & Business Association has warned that farms could be short staffed due to coronavirus travel restrictions. There have been calls for Brits to step up and fill the gaps – but although many people made unemployed during the lockdown have come forward, it is not enough to fill all vacancies, according to the Times.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/15/fruit-pickers-flown-romania-brits-failed-answer-call-help-12559562/?ito=twitter

The Times article:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-pickers-flown-in-to-plug-farmwork-gap-vvglpxks2?wgu=270525_54264_15869587998654_73aed12aea&wgexpiry=1594734799&utm_source=planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=22278

Can't afford a subscription to read the whole article, I'm afraid.

Nothing wrong with that as long as they are not entitled to Uk benefits ...tax credits ...child allowance....and go back once the jobs finished.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on April 15, 2020, 03:49:30 PM
Nothing wrong with that as long as they are not entitled to Uk benefits ...tax credits ...child allowance....and go back once the jobs finished.

They pay tax in this country they are entitled to the benefits that stem from it.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 15, 2020, 05:13:10 PM
Why didn't Brits take the jobs?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 15, 2020, 08:04:01 PM
They pay tax in this country they are entitled to the benefits that stem from it.


Only after a qualifying period! paying 40 quid in tax for 2 months then demanding benefits for all the family is pathetic.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 15, 2020, 08:06:07 PM
Why didn't Brits take the jobs?


Where were they advertised in the UK apart from Romania job centers  do you know?

And who managed to 'find' these hard workers DWP staff?  lol Hell no!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 15, 2020, 10:21:09 PM
No UK unemployed knew that it's fruit / veg season?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on April 15, 2020, 10:25:58 PM
They pay tax in this country they are entitled to the benefits that stem from it.

Ifbits a short term job they want earn enough to pay tax
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 15, 2020, 10:43:24 PM
No UK unemployed knew that it's fruit / veg season?
I’ve suggested to my 17 year old son that he gets picking this summer and he’s quite up for it.  I think the government should maybe spend some money doing a recruitment drive, ads on telly and social media that sort of thing, make it look like a fun way to earn some cash, get a tan, get fit etc..
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on April 15, 2020, 11:37:16 PM

Only after a qualifying period! paying 40 quid in tax for 2 months then demanding benefits for all the family is pathetic.

Then the two months after that etc etc for as long as they work here.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 21, 2020, 05:18:50 PM
I’ve suggested to my 17 year old son that he gets picking this summer and he’s quite up for it.  I think the government should maybe spend some money doing a recruitment drive, ads on telly and social media that sort of thing, make it look like a fun way to earn some cash, get a tan, get fit etc..

Absolutely, although snipping the odd grape in glorious weather sounds more fun than wrenching up early spring veg at the break of dawn in cold, and heavy rain. 

A problem with seasonal fruit/ veg picking work is that it can require some experience / skill to get up to speed.

When the euro was higher, it was lucrative for Eastern Europeans, and many returned year after year.
https://www.ft.com/content/13e183ee-c099-11e7-b8a3-38a6e068f464

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 21, 2020, 05:34:38 PM
Absolutely, although snipping the odd grape in glorious weather sounds more fun than wrenching up early spring veg at the break of dawn in cold, and heavy rain. 

A problem with seasonal fruit/ veg picking work is that it can require some experience / skill to get up to speed.

When the euro was higher, it was lucrative for Eastern Europeans, and many returned year after year.
https://www.ft.com/content/13e183ee-c099-11e7-b8a3-38a6e068f464
Unfortunately he is too young to sign up, as he needs to have turned 18 by the end of May but his birthday is later in the year.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 21, 2020, 06:22:24 PM
Unfortunately he is too young to sign up, as he needs to have turned 18 by the end of May but his birthday is later in the year.

He can't do a stint at seasonal work until 18?

Blimey, makes me feel old. I spent summer "hols" doing all kinds of odd jobs at 13-14.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on April 21, 2020, 06:41:53 PM
He can't do a stint at seasonal work until 18?

Blimey, makes me feel old. I spent summer "hols" doing all kinds of odd jobs at 13-14.
Not on the government’s own recruiting website no.  He probably could if he pitched up at a local farm, however there aren’t many fruit and veg farms local to us.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2020, 11:31:02 AM
I never know which thread to post in. Soz. Sometimes where there's an ongoing convo, sometimes according to the thread title.
CNN:

On Tuesday, in an interview with The Washington Post, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield issued a somewhat dire warning about the coronavirus -- and how long it might be with us.
"There's a possibility that the assault of the virus on our nation next winter will actually be even more difficult than the one we just went through," Redfield told the Post. "And when I've said this to others, they kind of put their head back, they don't understand what I mean. We're going to have the flu epidemic and the coronavirus epidemic at the same time."

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/22/politics/robert-redfield-cdc-mcenany/index.html

That hit me.

UK winter 2020/2021 = flu + COVID-19 + Brexit.


 19/03/2020
"London insists it won’t request an extension to EU-UK trade talks despite the EU’s lead negotiator Michel Barnier announcing he has contracted COVID-19.

The UK government is also doubling down on its threat to walk away at the end of June if sufficient progress hasn’t been made in EU-UK trade talks.

London issued a statement today saying they wish Michel Barnier a “speedy recovery” but says it intends to conclude talks on a future relationship by the end of the year regardless of the global pandemic.

And a UK government source has confirmed to Euronews that they still intend to walk away from negotiations if they feel sufficient or meaningful progress hasn’t been made by June.

"We haven’t defined what sufficient progress looks like but if we can’t make progress in areas that we think we should be able to then how will we get anywhere on more difficult areas," the source said.

Alternative arrangements to meeting face-to-face are being sourced by the UK such as the use technology and teleconferencing to support negotiations."
https://www.euronews.com/2020/03/19/brexit-uk-will-not-seek-trade-talks-extension-despite-barnier-having-covid-19

Both Barnier and the UK homologue (David Frost) went down with COVID-19.

Has anyone seen any indication that the UK might ask for an extension prior to the end of June deadline?


Latest I've seen:

David Frost
@DavidGHFrost
·
Apr 16
As we prepare for the next Rounds of negotiations, I want to reiterate the Government's position on the transition period created following our withdrawal from the EU.

Transition ends on 31 December this year.

We will not ask to extend it. If the EU asks we will say no. 1/2
David Frost
@DavidGHFrost
Extending would simply prolong negotiations, create even more uncertainty, leave us liable to pay more to the EU in future, and keep us bound by evolving EU laws at a time when we need to control our own affairs. In short, it is not in the UK's interest to extend. 2/2
4:42 PM · Apr 16, 2020·Twitter for Android

https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1250796638987333632



Holy sh**.

Here was I thinking that Brexit alone was going to be a disaster for years to come...
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2020, 12:34:36 PM
I never know which thread to post in. Soz. Sometimes where there's an ongoing convo, sometimes according to the thread title.
CNN:

On Tuesday, in an interview with The Washington Post, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Director Robert Redfield issued a somewhat dire warning about the coronavirus -- and how long it might be with us.
"There's a possibility that the assault of the virus on our nation next winter will actually be even more difficult than the one we just went through," Redfield told the Post. "And when I've said this to others, they kind of put their head back, they don't understand what I mean. We're going to have the flu epidemic and the coronavirus epidemic at the same time."

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/22/politics/robert-redfield-cdc-mcenany/index.html

That hit me.

UK winter 2020/2021 = flu + COVID-19 + Brexit.


 19/03/2020
"London insists it won’t request an extension to EU-UK trade talks despite the EU’s lead negotiator Michel Barnier announcing he has contracted COVID-19.

The UK government is also doubling down on its threat to walk away at the end of June if sufficient progress hasn’t been made in EU-UK trade talks.

London issued a statement today saying they wish Michel Barnier a “speedy recovery” but says it intends to conclude talks on a future relationship by the end of the year regardless of the global pandemic.

And a UK government source has confirmed to Euronews that they still intend to walk away from negotiations if they feel sufficient or meaningful progress hasn’t been made by June.

"We haven’t defined what sufficient progress looks like but if we can’t make progress in areas that we think we should be able to then how will we get anywhere on more difficult areas," the source said.

Alternative arrangements to meeting face-to-face are being sourced by the UK such as the use technology and teleconferencing to support negotiations."
https://www.euronews.com/2020/03/19/brexit-uk-will-not-seek-trade-talks-extension-despite-barnier-having-covid-19

Both Barnier and the UK homologue (David Frost) went down with COVID-19.

Has anyone seen any indication that the UK might ask for an extension prior to the end of June deadline?


Latest I've seen:

David Frost
@DavidGHFrost
·
Apr 16
As we prepare for the next Rounds of negotiations, I want to reiterate the Government's position on the transition period created following our withdrawal from the EU.

Transition ends on 31 December this year.

We will not ask to extend it. If the EU asks we will say no. 1/2
David Frost
@DavidGHFrost
Extending would simply prolong negotiations, create even more uncertainty, leave us liable to pay more to the EU in future, and keep us bound by evolving EU laws at a time when we need to control our own affairs. In short, it is not in the UK's interest to extend. 2/2
4:42 PM · Apr 16, 2020·Twitter for Android

https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1250796638987333632



Holy sh**.

Here was I thinking that Brexit alone was going to be a disaster for years to come...

I think the govt are absolutely  right ...if the EU want to make a deal they can... They just want to hold out for the deal they want
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2020, 12:49:22 PM
Is it just me, or does this message by leave.eu sound distinctly trumpian?

https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1253279590056972290
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on April 23, 2020, 01:06:33 PM
Davel, undoing and recontstructing UK-EU relations will takes years, if not decades. The UK has 6 weeks, in the middle of a pandemic, to decide on whethr to request an extension or not. The EU also has a pandemic to deal with.

For those (including me) who were worried about how the UK (or the rest of the EU) would deal with Brexit-related just-in-time supply chain issues as of next year...

It's not just about the economic impact, either.

Taking back control (of whatever it was they felt they'd actually lost) doesn't seem to be faring too well.

How on earth will the UK cope with this surge of the pandemic, a possible / probable upsurge in winter and no/little cooperation with their nearest neighbours over... anything concrete by Jan 1 2021?

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Mr Gray on April 23, 2020, 02:06:54 PM
Davel, undoing and recontstructing UK-EU relations will takes years, if not decades. The UK has 6 weeks, in the middle of a pandemic, to decide on whethr to request an extension or not. The EU also has a pandemic to deal with.

For those (including me) who were worried about how the UK (or the rest of the EU) would deal with Brexit-related just-in-time supply chain issues as of next year...

It's not just about the economic impact, either.

Taking back control (of whatever it was they felt they'd actually lost) doesn't seem to be faring too well.

How on earth will the UK cope with this surge of the pandemic, a possible / probable upsurge in winter and no/little cooperation with their nearest neighbours over... anything concrete by Jan 1 2021?

I think they will cope just well. I dont know what you are impying in red. There were specific reasons they wished to leave the EU after Cameron's attempt for some cooperation from the EU went ignored
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on April 23, 2020, 03:50:28 PM
Is it just me, or does this message by leave.eu sound distinctly trumpian?

https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1253279590056972290

Yep.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on April 23, 2020, 03:51:51 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/22/eu-procurement-johnson-priorities-coronavirus-pandemic
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on April 26, 2020, 10:55:04 PM
Davel, undoing and recontstructing UK-EU relations will takes years, if not decades. The UK has 6 weeks, in the middle of a pandemic, to decide on whethr to request an extension or not. The EU also has a pandemic to deal with.

For those (including me) who were worried about how the UK (or the rest of the EU) would deal with Brexit-related just-in-time supply chain issues as of next year...

It's not just about the economic impact, either.

Taking back control (of whatever it was they felt they'd actually lost) doesn't seem to be faring too well.

How on earth will the UK cope with this surge of the pandemic, a possible / probable upsurge in winter and no/little cooperation with their nearest neighbours over... anything concrete by Jan 1 2021?


Better than Spain and Italy I should wonder.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1272371/eu-news-coronavirus-italy-coronabonds-germany-netherlands-polls-italexit-spt


all hands on deck. not quite  all hands in trough and closed borders and look after own country.  Not very neighbourly at all.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: faithlilly on June 08, 2020, 09:18:07 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/07/the-coronavirus-crisis-wont-give-boris-johnson-an-alibi-for-a-calamitous-brexit
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 16, 2020, 11:02:45 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/07/the-coronavirus-crisis-wont-give-boris-johnson-an-alibi-for-a-calamitous-brexit

"It would be madness for Britain and bad for the EU not to reach an agreement. Where there’s a will, there’s a way. There’s a way. The question is whether there’s the will. If there’s not, a crisis triggered by a microbe will be calamitously compounded by a disaster that will be entirely manmade."
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 17, 2020, 02:03:19 PM
Some people seem to think that Brexit is just about reorganising trade agreements.

It's not.

It affects everything and nothing appears to have been settled.

To take the issue down to the mundane level, EU pet passports will no longer apply.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/bob-stewart-on-pet-passport-scheme-after-brexit-1-6703548?fbclid=IwAR1c9zg-MU5-Gcm1NKCMXKt_FjYMSMkyo37BmbokNa4BgH9jSRpExLBnA0c
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 17, 2020, 10:18:45 PM
Some people seem to think that Brexit is just about reorganising trade agreements.

It's not.

It affects everything and nothing appears to have been settled.

To take the issue down to the mundane level, EU pet passports will no longer apply.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/bob-stewart-on-pet-passport-scheme-after-brexit-1-6703548?fbclid=IwAR1c9zg-MU5-Gcm1NKCMXKt_FjYMSMkyo37BmbokNa4BgH9jSRpExLBnA0c


and some people,  the usual suspects,  seem to forget that the UK isn't a region of France or Germany!

as we have seen, the EU are a squalid bunch of useless self serving bureaucrats!
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 26, 2020, 01:10:23 PM
Four years on from the UK's Brexit vote, a majority of British voters would now opt to remain inside the European Union, says new research.

According to the European Social Survey (ESS), a pan-European poll carried out every two years, 56.8% of respondents in the UK indicated that they would vote to remain inside the bloc, an increase from 49.9% the last time the survey was published in 2018. The most recent survey shows that of those questioned in the UK, 34.9% said they would vote to leave and 8.3% said they would not vote at all.

The findings -- shared exclusively with CNN -- come in the same week that marked the fourth anniversary of the 2016 referendum. The intervening years have seen the UK engage in divisive internal debate about precisely what form Brexit should take, complicated negotiations with Brussels on how the country would leave the bloc, and painful political deadlock that only ended on January 31 this year, when the UK finally left the EU.

The survey also reveals that support for the EU has grown broadly across the continent.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/uk/uk-supports-eu-four-years-after-brexit-intl-gbr/index.html

Not sure that that was the intended outcome of Bannon / Cummings / Banks and various Russian connections.

Four and a half days to go before requesting an extension in the midst of the ongoing Covid-19 crisis.

But, hey-ho, hedge-fund managers, insurers and those with dual nationality seem to be okay.

PS Was the Russia report ever released?
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Wonderfulspam on June 26, 2020, 01:35:58 PM

'Four years on from the UK's Brexit vote, a majority of British voters would now opt to remain inside the European Union, says new research.

According to the European Social Survey (ESS), a pan-European poll carried out every two years, 56.8% of respondents in the UK indicated that they would vote to remain inside the bloc, an increase from 49.9% the last time the survey was published in 2018.'


I would have voted Tory in the 1997 general election had I been old enough to vote.

I think there are many people who with hindsight would have voted Tory.

I think the 1997 general election should now be re-run.

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 26, 2020, 01:42:15 PM
President Donald Trump and his former national security adviser John Bolton were among the few in the US administration who cared about helping Brexiteers, Bolton has said in his new book.

The former Trump aide says in his controversial memoir that Britain’s exit from the European Union was “an existential issue” for the UK but also “critically important to the US.”

“We should have been doing far more to help the Brexiteers, and I certainly tried,” Mr Bolton wrote in The Room Where It Happened, his memoir of his 17 months in the White House.

“Unfortunately, apart from Trump and myself, almost no one in the administration seemed to care. What a potential tragedy.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/only-trump-and-bolton-cared-about-helping-brexiteers-says-former-us-aide-1.4282843


Jun 21, 2020 - World
Nigel Farage attends Trump rally after exemption from U.S. travel ban
https://www.axios.com/nigel-farage-attends-trump-rally-uk-travel-ban-ff6b6c4f-17a5-4468-a293-b7d23eba6944.html


A bit more:

President Trump encouraged Nigel Farage, the U.K.'s pro-Brexit provocateur, to "get together" with Prime Minister Boris Johnson to deliver a Brexiteer victory in the upcoming general election, during a conversation Thursday on Farage's radio program on LBC.

Why it matters: Farage and Johnson are perhaps the two men most closely associated with Brexit, but they're leading competing parties into the Dec. 12 election. Johnson's Conservatives fear Farage's Brexit Party could play a spoiler role, denying them a parliamentary majority. Trump praised both Johnson and Farage effusively while claiming opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn would be "so bad for your country."

Context: Johnson had promised to deliver Brexit by tonight but was ultimately forced to accept an extension from the EU. He's running as the man who can get Brexit done, but Farage claims the deal Johnson struck with Brussels is far too soft.

    Trump seemed to agree with Farage's claims, saying the deal would make a U.S.-U.K. trade deal difficult, but he said repeatedly that Johnson is the "exact leader" the U.K. needs.

https://www.axios.com/donald-trump-tells-nigel-farage-work-boris-johnson-6a0918da-cc31-4efd-888a-20c9a07b1b41.html

Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 26, 2020, 01:59:47 PM

and some people,  the usual suspects,  seem to forget that the UK isn't a region of France or Germany!

as we have seen, the EU are a squalid bunch of useless self serving bureaucrats!

In which the UK had a substantial voice and influence with the highest 3rd ex-aequo number of parliamentarians.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Carana on June 26, 2020, 02:08:16 PM
Fishing is an emotive topic, and Farage was on the committee for years... but only turned up to one out of 42* meetings.

https://www.libdemvoice.org/about-nigel-farage-and-the-british-fishing-industry-50948.html

* To double-check, my recollection is that there were 47-48 in total, but that he'd still only turned up for one.
Title: Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
Post by: Venturi Swirl on June 26, 2020, 06:21:35 PM
'Four years on from the UK's Brexit vote, a majority of British voters would now opt to remain inside the European Union, says new research.

According to the European Social Survey (ESS), a pan-European poll carried out every two years, 56.8% of respondents in the UK indicated that they would vote to remain inside the bloc, an increase from 49.9% the last time the survey was published in 2018.'


I would have voted Tory in the 1997 general election had I been old enough to vote.

I think there are many people who with hindsight would have voted Tory.

I think the 1997 general election should now be re-run.
Nobody is now calling for the Brexit vote to be re-run, why are you bothering to make such a pointless post?