Brexit has well and truly begun!

[Venturi Swirl]

Not yet. Was it on Ch4? I watched the undercover Ch4 one about Cambridge Analytica. Quite something.

Yes, Channel 4, well worth watching.

[G-Unit]

But there are lots of versions of Out.  It’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise.  When the referendum was held, all the leavers I spoke to expected there to be a deal like Norway’s or Canada’s or Switzerland’s, none of them expected to sever ties immediately with no attempt at a negotiated deal.  Where do you get off on the idea that you know what was in the minds of everyone who voted to leave?

There are only lots of versions of out because of political spin. The people voted to leace the EU. Parliament voted for bills which set out what was going to happen; that Article 50 was to be invoked and that if no deal had been agreed by the end of the two years then the UK would leave without one.

[Venturi Swirl]

There are only lots of versions of out because of political spin. The people voted to leace the EU. Parliament voted for bills which set out what was going to happen; that Article 50 was to be invoked and that if no deal had been agreed by the end of the two years then the UK would leave without one.

Simple question, as you seem to know exactly what all leavers voted for - was it to leave the EU without attempting to secure any sort of deal that would mitigate the potential downsides of leaving?

[Venturi Swirl]

Daniel Finkelstein making my point exactly, just appeared in today’s Times.  An excerpt:

“Look at what has happened to the supporters of Brexit. Last night we learnt that people who once were quite pragmatic about the sort of relationship we should have with the European Union after leaving have become more doctrinaire. Only the hardest Brexit is now real Brexit. Nothing else will do. Any alternative is a betrayal.

These are people who once talked about how the EU was fine “when it was a common market”, or who said we might become members of the European Free Trade Association (Efta), or be like Norway. People who argued that we would arrange tariff-free trade with the EU. People who argued to remain in the customs union even after Brexit.

And now? They haven’t even noticed that they have shifted their position. Just as Sunstein’s theory predicted. They have spent so long knocking around with each other, egging each other on, setting each other purity tests, that they have drifted, drifted, drifted until we are in the ridiculous position where the prime minister negotiates to leave the EU and they turn it down.

Only chaos will do and they are willing to break their leader, break their government, break their party or even break Brexit as long as they don’t have to compromise. Forgetting, as they do, that they are being asked to compromise with positions they publicly advocated not that long ago”.

and

“The Brexiteer rebels are now saying something they never said in the referendum. That Brexit could mean leaving without any trade deal, breaking the Good Friday agreement, failing to settle financially with our continental allies and departing without a transition arrangement. They claim only this is truly Brexit. And only this is what “17.4 million people” voted for.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense. But all right, if they really believe that the majority of voters support this burn-it-all-down Brexit, let’s put it to the test. Let’s have another referendum and ask the electorate. If they are so confident that this is the will of the people, surely the Brexiteers won’t mind”.

[G-Unit]

Daniel Finkelstein making my point exactly, just appeared in today’s Times.  An excerpt:

“Look at what has happened to the supporters of Brexit. Last night we learnt that people who once were quite pragmatic about the sort of relationship we should have with the European Union after leaving have become more doctrinaire. Only the hardest Brexit is now real Brexit. Nothing else will do. Any alternative is a betrayal.

These are people who once talked about how the EU was fine “when it was a common market”, or who said we might become members of the European Free Trade Association (Efta), or be like Norway. People who argued that we would arrange tariff-free trade with the EU. People who argued to remain in the customs union even after Brexit.

And now? They haven’t even noticed that they have shifted their position. Just as Sunstein’s theory predicted. They have spent so long knocking around with each other, egging each other on, setting each other purity tests, that they have drifted, drifted, drifted until we are in the ridiculous position where the prime minister negotiates to leave the EU and they turn it down.

Only chaos will do and they are willing to break their leader, break their government, break their party or even break Brexit as long as they don’t have to compromise. Forgetting, as they do, that they are being asked to compromise with positions they publicly advocated not that long ago”.

and

“The Brexiteer rebels are now saying something they never said in the referendum. That Brexit could mean leaving without any trade deal, breaking the Good Friday agreement, failing to settle financially with our continental allies and departing without a transition arrangement. They claim only this is truly Brexit. And only this is what “17.4 million people” voted for.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense. But all right, if they really believe that the majority of voters support this burn-it-all-down Brexit, let’s put it to the test. Let’s have another referendum and ask the electorate. If they are so confident that this is the will of the people, surely the Brexiteers won’t mind”.

Were any names named? Were their contrdictionary points of view quoted? If not, then how do we know he's right about these people?

[Venturi Swirl]

Were any names named? Were their contrdictionary points of view quoted? If not, then how do we know he's right about these people?

Because we have memories and can clearly recall that no one at the time of the referendum debate on the Leave side suggested leaving without negotiation to mitigate the possible negative consequences of such a decision.  All we heard about was Canada, Norway, having our cake and eat it, a deal with the EU would be the easiest thing in the world etc.  Are you now denying this too? 

[Venturi Swirl]

Theresa has yet again confirmed that she will invoke Article 50 by end of this year despite pressure being put on her by French President Hollande and others to rush it.  Cool, calm and collected Theresa will steer the ship on a true course 

LOL.

[Venturi Swirl]

She right on the ball and will make a success of it. The key negotiation will be on immigration versus the single market.

Negotiation?  But all leavers wanted to leave without any sort of deal I thought?

[Venturi Swirl]

Boris Johnson didn’t appear to support leaving the EU with no deal and  trading on WTO terms with our nearest neighbours:

“Johnson called for Britain and the EU to negotiate a free-trade agreement – dubbed “Super Canada” – mirroring the deal the bloc signed with Ottawa in 2016.
It removed the vast majority of customs duties on exports crossing the Atlantic.
He conceded that negotiating such an agreement, which would aim for mutual recognition of standards to keep goods moving and also include services, may require extending any Brexit transition period beyond 2020”

I wonder what his position is now? 

[Venturi Swirl]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-40667879/eu-trade-deal-easiest-in-human-history

Liam Fox seemed keen on the benefits of doing a trade deal with the EU, when did he advocate pre-referendum that a vote to leave should mean a vote to go onto WTO terms with the EU and not bother trying to get a deal?

[G-Unit]

Because we have memories and can clearly recall that no one at the time of the referendum debate on the Leave side suggested leaving without negotiation to mitigate the possible negative consequences of such a decision.  All we heard about was Canada, Norway, having our cake and eat it, a deal with the EU would be the easiest thing in the world etc.  Are you now denying this too?

I am denying nothing, simply asking for cites in support of claims being made. I remember all sorts of things being said, but not by whomr or whether it was before or after the referendum, or the context in which those things were discussed. I prefer facts to sweeping generalisations.

[Venturi Swirl]

 Daniel Hannan, a Tory MEP and one of the faces of Vote Leave, declared: "Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market." Boris Johnson, now foreign secretary, declared in the aftermath of the vote that Britain would retain access to the single market.

[Venturi Swirl]

I am denying nothing, simply asking for cites in support of claims being made. I remember all sorts of things being said, but not by whomr or whether it was before or after the referendum, or the context in which those things were discussed. I prefer facts to sweeping generalisations.

As this subject seems to interest you perhaps you could spend an hour or two researching whether or not a vote to leave the EU was understood by all to mean no single market and no attempt at brokering a deal with the EU, switching automatically to WTO two years after triggering Article 50.  Who talked about that in the Leave campaign?

[Venturi Swirl]

6 'Brexit does not mean the UK will leave the single market'

Daniel Hannan, the Tory MEP who is often described as the “godfather of Brexit” repeatedly assured voters that Britain would not leave the single market if they voted to leave the EU.

“Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market,” he said.

Owen Paterson, a Tory MP and a prominent campaigner for Vote Leave made similar claims.

“Only a madman would actually leave the market,” Mr Paterson said.

Since the referendum Ms May has repeatedly said that Brexit would mean leaving the single market.

Following the referendum Oliver Norgrove, a former Vote Leave staffer, who supports staying in the single market, urged people to check the official campaign’s website and official literature – noting that the things they had campaigned for were “utterly achievable in the EEA and make no mention at all of leaving the single market”.

[Venturi Swirl]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-eu-referendum-single-market-brexit-a7104846.html