Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 284919 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #735 on: January 28, 2019, 03:12:14 PM »
Maybe you haven't noticed but they run the EU.

Institutionally, the EU has become Germany writ large. The Commission, the European Parliament, European Council, and the European Court of Justice mirror the decentralized structure of Germany itself. The EU’s gospel of “subsidiarity” reflects the division of powers between Germany’s federal government and states (Länder). Germany ensures that Germans fill the leading positions in EU bodies. The EU rules through its institutions, but the German government rules those institutions.

http://www.atimes.com/article/really-runs-european-union-germany-thats/

More populous countries have more seats for MEP candidates that EU citizens can elect.

Yes, Germany has the most seats ( 2014: 96). Followed by France: 74; and joint third, UK and Italy: 73. Then Spain / Poland with 50

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/about-parliament/files/home-page/en-ep-brochure.pdf

However, up until now, UK citizens could vote for MEPs.

How is it elected?
England, Scotland and Wales

In a European Parliamentary election in England, Scotland and Wales, you have one vote to elect all of the MEPs for your region.

Each party puts forward a list of candidates – known as a regional list – and you vote for one of these lists or for an individual candidate standing as an independent.

The number of MEPs that are elected from each party to represent a region depends on the overall share of votes that each party receives.
Northern Ireland

In Northern Ireland, there is a different voting system where you vote by ranking the candidates in order of preference. This is called the Single Transferable Vote.

https://www.yourvotematters.co.uk/how-am-i-represented/european-parliment

How many UK citizens actually realised that they could vote for MEPs?

Since 1979 MEPs have been elected by direct universal suffrage for a five-year period.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/about


Offline Sunny

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #736 on: January 28, 2019, 03:51:14 PM »
Being a back bench MP is very different from being leader of your Party.

Of course but I was trying to show his leanings on the Brexit debate.   We have a leaver on the opposition bench and a remainer in charge of brexit.
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Offline Sunny

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #737 on: January 28, 2019, 04:05:28 PM »
How democratic is it that John Bercow is able to allow or block different amendments when it suits him.   

He appears far from impartial to me.
Members are reminded that cites must be provided in accordance with the forum rules. On several occasions recently cites have been requested but never provided. Asking for a cite is not goading but compliance.

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Offline Angelo222

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #738 on: January 28, 2019, 04:09:19 PM »
Since 1979 MEPs have been elected by direct universal suffrage for a five-year period.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/about

That's how we vote in the UK anyway, one adult man or woman...one vote (Scottish referendum rules aside).
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Eleanor

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #739 on: January 28, 2019, 04:59:37 PM »
How democratic is it that John Bercow is able to allow or block different amendments when it suits him.   

He appears far from impartial to me.

Bercow is a horror story.  But they don't seem to be able to get rid of him.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #740 on: January 28, 2019, 06:06:09 PM »
So on that basis we should have referendums constantly until the cock crows?

The fact is that most people voted leave because they are fed up with a corrupt organisation led by Germans dictating just about every facet in our lives. People want to be free of the EU and a it's ambitions for a super state with an EU army. Free to control immigration on our terms and free to trade with the rest of the world without incurring EU tariffs.

The EU isn't working any more, half of Europe is either bankrupt or slowly going bankrupt. Unemployment in Spain, Portugal and Italy is completely out of control.  Why on earth would we ever want to be part of that disaster any more?
IMO there is a complete disconnect between your two paragraphs.  One the one hand we have this all powerful superstate with its own army, secretly controlled by the super-efficient German master race, on the other hand we have a broken EU that is either bankrupt or heading that way, out of control and a complete disaster.  So, which is it, actually?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 06:10:46 PM by Vertigo Swirl »
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #741 on: January 28, 2019, 06:12:48 PM »
“The heads of Sainsbury’s, Asda, Marks & Spencer and Waitrose said that supermarket shelves could start emptying within two weeks of a chaotic departure from the EU. They added that no amount of contingency planning could offset the risks and that they expected “significant risks to maintaining the choice, quality and durability of food that our customers have come to expect”.

“We are extremely concerned that our customers will be among the first to experience the realities of a no-deal Brexit,” they said”

Oh well, we’re all too fat as it is, I’m sure it will do us all good to go on the Brexit diet.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #742 on: January 28, 2019, 06:28:20 PM »
That's how we vote in the UK anyway, one adult man or woman...one vote (Scottish referendum rules aside).

But in addition, UK citizens have been able to vote for MEPs as well. When some people keep going on about "unelected bureaucrats in Brussels" (e.g. Farage, ironically), every eligible UK citizen has been able to have a say in electing the MEPs from their region, according to the party grouping that they would be joining.

In addition, they also have a say in the makeup of the other main bodies, albeit indirectly.

The European Parliament
The European Parliament (EP) is the only parliamentary institution of the European Union (EU) that is directly elected by EU citizens aged 18 or older. Together with the Council of the European Union (also known as the 'Council'), which should not be confused with the European Council and the Council of Europe, it exercises the legislative function of the EU. The Parliament is composed of 751 members (MEPs), that will become 705 starting from the 2019–2024 legislature (because specific provisions adopted about Brexit), who represent the second-largest democratic electorate in the world (after the Parliament of India) and the largest trans-national democratic electorate in the world (375 million eligible voters in 2009).[3][4][5]

It has been directly elected by the European citizens (each EU Member State's national has his state's nationality and EU one consequently) every five years and by universal suffrage since 1979. However, voter turnout at European Parliament elections has fallen consecutively at each election since that date, and has been under 50% since 1999. Voter turnout in 2014 stood at 42.54% of all European voters.[6]

Although the European Parliament has legislative power, as does the Council, they do not formally possess legislative initiative (it is for the European Commission), as most national parliaments of European Union member states do.[7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament

The European Council
The European Council is a collective body that defines the European Union's overall political direction and priorities. It comprises the heads of state or government of the EU member states, along with the President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission. The High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy also takes part in its meetings.[1]

(...) While the European Council has no formal legislative power, it is a strategic (and crisis-solving) body that provides the union with general political directions and priorities, and acts as a collective presidency. The European Commission remains the sole initiator of legislation, but the European Council is able to provide an impetus to guide legislative policy.[2][3] /
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Council

The European Commission
The Commission operates as a cabinet government, with 28 members of the Commission (informally known as "commissioners").[4] There is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.[3] One of the 28 is the Commission President (currently Jean-Claude Juncker) proposed by the European Council[5] and elected by the European Parliament.[6] The Council of the European Union then nominates the other 27 members of the Commission in agreement with the nominated President, and the 28 members as a single body are then subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament.[7] The current Commission is the Juncker Commission, which took office in late 2014, following the European Parliament elections in May of the same year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission


Council of the European Union

The Council of the European Union (...) is part of the essentially bicameral EU legislature (the other legislative body being the European Parliament) and represents the executive governments of the EU's member states.[2][1]
(...)
The Council of the European Union and the European Council are the only EU institutions that are explicitly intergovernmental, that is forums whose attendees express and represent the position of their member state's executive, be they ambassadors, ministers or heads of state/government.

(...)
The Council meets in 10 different configurations of 28 national ministers (one per state). The precise membership of these configurations varies according to the topic under consideration; for example, when discussing agricultural policy the Council is formed by the 28 national ministers whose portfolio includes this policy area (with the related European Commissioners contributing but not voting).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_European_Union

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #743 on: January 28, 2019, 06:41:04 PM »
“The heads of Sainsbury’s, Asda, Marks & Spencer and Waitrose said that supermarket shelves could start emptying within two weeks of a chaotic departure from the EU. They added that no amount of contingency planning could offset the risks and that they expected “significant risks to maintaining the choice, quality and durability of food that our customers have come to expect”.

“We are extremely concerned that our customers will be among the first to experience the realities of a no-deal Brexit,” they said”

Oh well, we’re all too fat as it is, I’m sure it will do us all good to go on the Brexit diet.


https://twitter.com/Number10cat/status/1089929165137170432

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #744 on: January 28, 2019, 06:43:04 PM »
It was never all about 'sectarianism' in Northern Ireland ... anyone who has even the slightest knowledge about 'the troubles' has an awareness of the potential for division and criminality presented by the reintroduction of an unpoliceable border.
People who have lived with it are expressing fear that the very fine balance which is presently being enjoyed from the terrors of the past will be compromised.  I think a little research confirms that.

"It was the first time I had been to Northern Ireland since my friend, Bridie, wet herself when a British soldier pointed a gun at her. A bunch of 10-year-olds on a school trip, our bus was searched at the border."
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-good-friday-agreement-northern-ireland-troubles-violence-ira-border-a8297406.html

I didn't say it was all about sectarianism. I was replying to your post which seemed to suggest a connection between blowing people up and borders. Is anyone suggesting British troops are going to set up border checkpoints again?
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Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #745 on: January 28, 2019, 07:00:01 PM »
I didn't say it was all about sectarianism. I was replying to your post which seemed to suggest a connection between blowing people up and borders. Is anyone suggesting British troops are going to set up border checkpoints again?

Not clear.
3 days ago:
     25 January 2019 at 4:08pm

Soldiers may return to Irish border in event of no-deal Brexit, warns Irish premier Leo Varadkarhttps://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-25/no-deal-brexit-could-mean-return-of-armed-border-posts-irish-premier-warns/


Today:
Monday 28 January 2019
Government forced to deny plans for Army to patrol Border in no-deal Brexit
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/government-forced-to-deny-plans-for-army-to-patrol-border-in-nodeal-brexit-37751008.html

Tomorrow...

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #746 on: January 28, 2019, 08:26:05 PM »
Not clear.
3 days ago:
     25 January 2019 at 4:08pm

Soldiers may return to Irish border in event of no-deal Brexit, warns Irish premier Leo Varadkarhttps://www.itv.com/news/2019-01-25/no-deal-brexit-could-mean-return-of-armed-border-posts-irish-premier-warns/


Today:
Monday 28 January 2019
Government forced to deny plans for Army to patrol Border in no-deal Brexit
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/government-forced-to-deny-plans-for-army-to-patrol-border-in-nodeal-brexit-37751008.html

Tomorrow...

He seems to be guessing what the UK government might do. That's not his job, and he has quite rightly been accused of scare-mongering.
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Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #747 on: January 28, 2019, 10:34:07 PM »
He seems to be guessing what the UK government might do. That's not his job, and he has quite rightly been accused of scare-mongering.

Don'tt know. Hard border surveillance could become a reality in the event of a no-deal, but he EU is unlikely to cede on the border issue.

But today isn't yet tomorrow...

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #748 on: January 28, 2019, 10:52:47 PM »
An interesting article from the Mirror...

Brexit has already been cancelled - and here's why they're not telling you
March 29 was a Brexiteer threat to bring people in line, and it has utterly failed

12:40, 23 JAN 2019Updated10:21, 24 JAN 2019
If Brexit were a film, it would be at the point where pages were being ripped off a calendar in a frenzy.

Tick, tock, goes the clock, as we get nearer to the day we were told was either the end of the beginning or beginning of the end. Only trouble is, March 29 is nothing but a plot device.

The fact is, Brexit is off. Formally ending the Article 50 legal clock is just an inevitable formality. When the nation finally realises this is a false ending you're going to see a lot of people avoiding the blame while you wonder why you've got to sit through any more of this tripe.

So allow me to explain.

We have had one meaningful vote, which achieved nothing meaningful. Next Monday Theresa May will present us with Plan B, which is exactly the same as Plan A but has had the 'A' Tipp-exed out. A second meaningful vote is scheduled for next Tuesday, in which Theresa will probably find she has negotiated her walloping, earlier defeat down to being a slightly-less walloping second defeat.

At this point, there will be fewer than 30 sitting days left for Parliament to pass all the legislation needed to Brexit with Theresa's deal. They might be able to increase it to 40 or so if they cancel half-term and Fridays.

To Brexit calmly and cleanly on March 29, in those 40 days Parliament must pass 9 Parliamentary bills and amend 600 other bits of legislation.

Now, that's a squeeze at the best of times. When the legislation involves things which make the whole nation argue furiously without coming to any agreement, it's going to be near-impossible.

Added to that, passing ANY laws under ANY circumstances in just 40 days - for debates in both the Commons and Lords, committee stages for detailed scrutiny, and several votes - is unwise to say the least.

That's how mistakes get made. They spent 6 months on the EU Referendum Bill, and cocked it up royally.

Video Loading
Question Time is proving an even more challenging experience as Brexit draws closer, says our man Kevin Maguire

"That's why I haven't written my memoirs yet - I'm still thinking of an excuse!" Credit: Graham Flack/Red Sky Shepherds Huts (Image: PA)
Of the 14 new bills required for Brexit - on things like animal welfare, money laundering and haulage - just 5 have been passed since the referendum.

Of the 9 remaining, the one closest to being finished is the Trade Bill - and the House of Lords just voted to shelve it because it lacked detail.

According to the government, this defeat means we are now unable to move to World Trade Organisation rules in the event of a no deal Brexit.

The government has been asked for this extra detail for 15 months, and has failed to come up with any. The chances of it doing so by a new deadline of February 25 are roughly the same as Ant McPartlin getting a safe driving award.


"AHAHA! Nice one Foxy" (Image: PA)
All the other bills are stuck in the digestive system of a Parliament still arguing about the principle of leaving. But there's an even worse issue in the shape of 12,000 EU regulations.

The government is transferring the vast majority of them straight into UK law, but some need to be tweaked using a statutory instrument. At first there was going to be about 1,000 of them, then 800, and finally last October it was decided we could get away with just changing 600 existing rules.

The government has submitted 333 of them so far. In other words, 75% of the time available for the task has elapsed, but only 56% of the work has been done.

Video Loading
PMQs: Jeremy Corbyn grills Theresa May over Customs Union

"Not my fault, guv'nor" (Image: AFP/Getty Images)
There's a further problem. Last year Parliament demanded more scrutiny of these "Henry VIII powers", in order to ensure it was done properly.

As a result, only 79 have been approved. That leaves 254 in the system, and 267 yet to be filed.

Those are the things that are needed to leave with Theresa's deal - which is why so many politicians are now fretting publicly about the threat of no deal.

The trouble is, NOT having a deal also requires legislation.


If only they spent more time in Parliament, and less on telly (Image: Getty Images Europe)
No deal means we have to pass that trade bill that's been shelved. It needs a financial services bill which has yet to get to the Commons for MP approval, and Parliament has also got to legislate for EU citizen's rights.

On top of that, no deal requires 60 new processes, 25 new IT systems, a "mega-bill" of 17 new laws to be passed by the Irish government, and - oh dear - all 600 of those statutory instruments to have been filed, read, and approved by MPs.

Not going to happen, is it? Not in 40 days, not in a month of Mondays.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Angelo222

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #749 on: January 29, 2019, 03:00:58 AM »
BREXIT won't be sorted overnight, it will take years to get everything into place so best to leave the EU on the 29 March and do the horse trading afterwards.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!