Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 284918 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1425 on: March 03, 2019, 09:44:19 PM »
For any Farage fans... his erm, speech, to CPAC 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv1aMH-qCg0&feature=youtu.be

I've never heard him speak like that before. I find it a bit disturbing, and I can't put my finger on why for the moment.


Offline Admin

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1426 on: March 03, 2019, 10:46:03 PM »
For any Farage fans... his erm, speech, to CPAC 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv1aMH-qCg0&feature=youtu.be

I've never heard him speak like that before. I find it a bit disturbing, and I can't put my finger on why for the moment.

He does ramble on somewhat.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1427 on: March 03, 2019, 11:28:59 PM »
I hear a rumour that Farage is being investigated for money laundering and may be arrested soon...
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1428 on: March 04, 2019, 08:11:45 AM »
Leavers’ immigration hopes will be betrayed
March 4 2019, 12:01am,
Clare Foges

The rise in migration from outside the EU shows that the government is not listening to what the British people want


Pull on your walking boots, pack your ginger beer and pay your modest £50 joining fee: later this month Nigel Farage begins a March For Leave protest from Sunderland to Westminster. Cries of “God speed, Nige!” in Hartlepool; blisters tended to in Doncaster; a Blitz-style singalong in Wellingborough. The purpose of Farage’s march? “To tell the Westminster elite we will not be betrayed over Brexit.”

Ah, the B-word. Betrayal. Expect to hear it endlessly over the coming months. Whatever form of Brexit we end up with, Brexiteers will say it betrays the Brexit dream, Remainers that it betrays the British people, young people that it betrays their hopes of a bright future.

In the years to come we also face another mighty wave of betrayed anger: the rage of Leave voters who thought Brexit would cut immigration. Some who campaigned for Leave would rather that the referendum was all about sovereignty (which they consider a high-flown and principled reason) rather than immigration (which they think base and a little racist). Consider Boris Johnson’s recent rather weaselly remarks that he “didn’t say anything about Turkey during the referendum”, despite his multiple mentions of possible Turkish accession to the EU, the letter he wrote to David Cameron in June 2016 saying that “the only way to avoid having common borders with Turkey is to vote leave”, the poster run by his campaign stating that “Turkey (76 million people) is joining the EU”.

Johnson — and Vote Leave — knew full well that voters’ frustration over high levels of immigration was political dynamite. Year after year, when people were asked about the most important issues facing the country, immigration came at or near the top of the list, while Europe barely registered. They were not talking about the perils of “ever-closer union” in the Dog and Duck. The overwhelming public anxiety was about immigration. So when voters were told they could “take back control”, they foresaw a significant fall in numbers.

This is why public opinion on immigration has softened so dramatically since the vote. In June 2016 YouGov found that 56 per cent of people named “immigration and asylum” as one of the top issues facing the country. By last month the figure had tumbled to 27 per cent. What happened? Have all those concerns about mass immigration and its impact on housing and infrastructure just melted away? No. Concern about immigration has softened because people believe Brexit will cut immigration significantly. They trust that the issue is in hand, that numbers are bound to fall.

But figures released last week gave us a clear indication that overall numbers will not fall. While net immigration from the EU has dropped to its lowest level in a decade, net migration from outside the bloc is at its highest since 2004, with 261,000 more non-EU citizens arriving than leaving in the year to September 2018. The Poles and Romanians are simply being replaced by migrants from outside Europe.

Register the significance of this. Non-EU migration is the part that the government has always been able to control. No need to “take back control” of our borders here, we already have it. And yet successive governments have been unwilling or unable to bring the numbers down. Indeed, it seems likely that the non-EU figure will climb farther after Brexit, with visas to the UK used as sweeteners to secure free trade deals. This is not to mention the pressure from business to maintain the flow of low-skilled workers into the UK, wherever they may come from.

So not only does it seem likely that net migration numbers will remain extremely high, it looks as though a higher proportion will come from outside the EU than inside it. This matters for two reasons.

First, financial. Go beyond the stereotypes of feckless Romanians and you find that migrants from the European Economic Area are far more likely to make a net contribution to the UK’s coffers than those from outside it. Last year a report by the Migration Advisory Committee, which advises the government, contained some surprising figures.

The average adult migrant from EU countries contributed about £2,300 more to the UK public finances than the average British adult. The average non-EU migrant contributed about £840 less than the average Briton. This difference is partly explained by the fact that many non-EU citizens bring family dependents with them who do no work. In 2016 nearly a quarter of those who migrated from outside the EU (53,000 people) came to join members of their family.

The second reason is cultural. As uncomfortable as it may be to say, those from outside the EU are more likely to come from countries whose way of life and beliefs differ from British culture in a problematic way; whose attitudes to women, sexuality and secular freedoms jar with our own. Across swathes of Asia, the Middle East and Africa there prevail attitudes that we rightly condemn as backward and misogynistic. Partly as a consequence of this conflict, some who have migrated to the UK from outside the EU have formed communities that turn their backs on mainstream British culture, preferring isolation to integration.

I would suggest that it is for these reasons, rather than bigotry, that the British public show a preference for EU migration over that from outside Europe. In 2017 the London School of Economics conducted a survey of British residents, asking respondents to indicate their preferred level of net immigration from each group, on a sliding scale from zero to 165,000 a year. Middle-class people, the young and Remainers preferred more net immigration overall than the working class, older people and Leavers, but across social classes and ages, across both sides of the referendum divide, all groups indicated that they would prefer more immigrants from the EU than from outside it.

This is not to say that we should close the door on talent beyond Europe’s borders: far from it. Britain needs the skills, energy, kindness and wisdom of people from across the world. But any government purporting to care about “the will of the people” must take the clear views of those people into account. If these views are ignored, and if the overall numbers do not fall, then in this case the word “betrayal” will be well deserved.

@ClareFoges
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1429 on: March 04, 2019, 09:16:33 AM »
It doesn't look like the UK-US deal is going to be one of the "easiest in history"...
The US administration wants to secure "comprehensive access" for agricultural goods in Britain by reducing or eliminating tariffs. It also wants other barriers to US exports removed.

Scrapping those barriers could open Britain's door to genetically modified crops, animal feed with antibiotics and chlorine-washed chicken products that are banned in the European Union but common in the United States.
Henig said that the United States sees Brexit as an "opportunity to ensure the United Kingdom follows the US approach in areas such as food standards."

That would be politically unpopular in Britain. But it would also be problematic for another reason.
The United Kingdom is hoping to maintain a close trading relationship with the European Union, its biggest trade partner, after Brexit. To do that, it needs to remain aligned with strict EU safety and environmental rules.


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/01/business/us-uk-trade-deal-brexit/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1kfXG8nzB0nPODn8hVvxBOmeJZtya0oSXS7MeCF0-_1qsV7T_Ry52uaBw

Trump has previously warned that the Brexit deal Prime Minister Theresa May negotiated with the European Union, which includes a transitional period of nearly two years, could hinder trade with the United States.

Nothing to do with Farage and the ERG's attempts to thwart a deal, by any chance?

And the US doesn't want the UK to have a deal with China...
The US document also warns Britain that it will take "appropriate action" if the country negotiates a trade deal with a "non-market country" — which experts said is a reference to China.

"It's attempting to allow the United States to withdraw the deal if it doesn't like any agreement the United Kingdom makes with China," said Peter Holmes, a trade expert who teaches economics at the University of Sussex.


Oh... and this bit:
Experts say the tough line taken by the United States reflects the reduced bargaining power the United Kingdom will have once it leaves the European Union.

It will negotiate as a country of 66 million, while the European Union represents a bloc with 500 million citizens. Other countries also know that the United Kingdom will be highly motivated to replace free trade deals it lost because of Brexit.

South Korea and Japan have already indicated they will demand concessions on trade in return for new deals with the United Kingdom to replace those it has as an EU member state.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1430 on: March 04, 2019, 09:28:05 AM »
There are, broadly speaking, three reasons for people to come to Britain. To work, stidy or join family. Recently the largest group coming here were Polish, then Indian, Pakistani and Irish. Since the referendum more Polish people have left than have arrived.

Some of the rise in non EU immigration is due to increasing numbers coming here to study. If they are here to study for a degree they will pay between £10,000 and £38,000 for their course. They will also contribute through their living expenses. A lot of them will go home at the end of their studies.

The big difference between EU immigration and non EU immigration is that one cannot be controlled by the British government and the other can.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/february2019
https://www.google.com/search?q=cost+of+uni+for+foreign+students+uk&oq=cost+of+uni+for+foreign+students+uk&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.16376j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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Offline Eleanor

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1431 on: March 04, 2019, 09:44:10 AM »
It doesn't look like the UK-US deal is going to be one of the "easiest in history"...
The US administration wants to secure "comprehensive access" for agricultural goods in Britain by reducing or eliminating tariffs. It also wants other barriers to US exports removed.

Scrapping those barriers could open Britain's door to genetically modified crops, animal feed with antibiotics and chlorine-washed chicken products that are banned in the European Union but common in the United States.
Henig said that the United States sees Brexit as an "opportunity to ensure the United Kingdom follows the US approach in areas such as food standards."

That would be politically unpopular in Britain. But it would also be problematic for another reason.
The United Kingdom is hoping to maintain a close trading relationship with the European Union, its biggest trade partner, after Brexit. To do that, it needs to remain aligned with strict EU safety and environmental rules.


https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/01/business/us-uk-trade-deal-brexit/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1kfXG8nzB0nPODn8hVvxBOmeJZtya0oSXS7MeCF0-_1qsV7T_Ry52uaBw

Trump has previously warned that the Brexit deal Prime Minister Theresa May negotiated with the European Union, which includes a transitional period of nearly two years, could hinder trade with the United States.

Nothing to do with Farage and the ERG's attempts to thwart a deal, by any chance?

And the US doesn't want the UK to have a deal with China...
The US document also warns Britain that it will take "appropriate action" if the country negotiates a trade deal with a "non-market country" — which experts said is a reference to China.

"It's attempting to allow the United States to withdraw the deal if it doesn't like any agreement the United Kingdom makes with China," said Peter Holmes, a trade expert who teaches economics at the University of Sussex.


Oh... and this bit:
Experts say the tough line taken by the United States reflects the reduced bargaining power the United Kingdom will have once it leaves the European Union.

It will negotiate as a country of 66 million, while the European Union represents a bloc with 500 million citizens. Other countries also know that the United Kingdom will be highly motivated to replace free trade deals it lost because of Brexit.

South Korea and Japan have already indicated they will demand concessions on trade in return for new deals with the United Kingdom to replace those it has as an EU member state.


So, they are all trying it on again.  "We will only do this if UK does that?"  All of them?  Oh Really.  But stock piling a bit of non perishables wouldn't be a bad idea.  I have always done just this.

The truth is more likely to be that they will all be rushing to sell UK something, anything.

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1432 on: March 04, 2019, 10:24:30 AM »
There are, broadly speaking, three reasons for people to come to Britain. To work, stidy or join family. Recently the largest group coming here were Polish, then Indian, Pakistani and Irish. Since the referendum more Polish people have left than have arrived.

Some of the rise in non EU immigration is due to increasing numbers coming here to study. If they are here to study for a degree they will pay between £10,000 and £38,000 for their course. They will also contribute through their living expenses. A lot of them will go home at the end of their studies.

The big difference between EU immigration and non EU immigration is that one cannot be controlled by the British government and the other can.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/february2019
https://www.google.com/search?q=cost+of+uni+for+foreign+students+uk&oq=cost+of+uni+for+foreign+students+uk&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.16376j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

How is the UK unable to control EU immigration? Is the UK more lax than other EU countries?

FTR, I have both EU and non-EU friends who work hard, pay their dues and contribute to the general good in many ways.

Why are many Leavers saying that foreigners are stealing their jobs? How many Brits sign up to do the sh*tty jobs that someone needs to do? If Brits aren't getting some of the higher paid ones, why not? There's no positive discrimination towards non-Brits that I'm aware of, so is it that they're not necessarily the best people for the job? If so, there may be something wrong with the educational system.

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1433 on: March 04, 2019, 10:27:25 AM »

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1434 on: March 04, 2019, 10:45:51 AM »
So, they are all trying it on again.  "We will only do this if UK does that?"  All of them?  Oh Really.  But stock piling a bit of non perishables wouldn't be a bad idea.  I have always done just this.

The truth is more likely to be that they will all be rushing to sell UK something, anything.

Why would a country not push for its own best interests? The EU (inc the UK) have higher health and safety, environmental and animal welfare standards.

The US is apparently also going for the jugular over the health industry. Between knee-jerk reactions on both sides of Brexit, I'm trying to work out what's going on.


Offline Eleanor

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1435 on: March 04, 2019, 10:55:31 AM »
Why would a country not push for its own best interests? The EU (inc the UK) have higher health and safety, environmental and animal welfare standards.

The US is apparently also going for the jugular over the health industry. Between knee-jerk reactions on both sides of Brexit, I'm trying to work out what's going on.

The UK does not have to accept anything it doesn't want, for whatever reason.  I bet there is a boat full of all sorts on its way from NewZealand at this moment.  The EU doesn't have a problem with New Zealand and nor did The UK, once upon a time.

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1436 on: March 04, 2019, 11:03:36 AM »
Setting aside hard-nosed trade negotiations / lobbies, for a moment, I find this commentary from the US embassy in London interesting (taking the issue from a different perspective):

https://twitter.com/PoliticsPunked/status/1102155444116774912

Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1437 on: March 04, 2019, 11:09:17 AM »
The UK does not have to accept anything it doesn't want, for whatever reason.  I bet there is a boat full of all sorts on its way from NewZealand at this moment.  The EU doesn't have a problem with New Zealand and nor did The UK, once upon a time.

There is already an agreement with NZ.

On the other hand, a cargo ship set off from the UK to Japan at the end of February, and is unlikely to get there and clear customs prior to March 29. Then what? WTO tariffs and barriers kick in? The ship has to turn back?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1438 on: March 04, 2019, 11:23:42 AM »
How is the UK unable to control EU immigration? Is the UK more lax than other EU countries?

FTR, I have both EU and non-EU friends who work hard, pay their dues and contribute to the general good in many ways.

Why are many Leavers saying that foreigners are stealing their jobs? How many Brits sign up to do the sh*tty jobs that someone needs to do? If Brits aren't getting some of the higher paid ones, why not? There's no positive discrimination towards non-Brits that I'm aware of, so is it that they're not necessarily the best people for the job? If so, there may be something wrong with the educational system.

I understood that Freedom of Movement allowed RU citizens to come here at will?
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Offline Carana

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1439 on: March 04, 2019, 11:37:47 AM »
I understood that Freedom of Movement allowed RU citizens to come here at will?

RU citizens can go to, e.g., France, and anyone can have a holiday home, but under the auspices of "exercising EU rights", if they intend to live there permanently, they need to prove self-sufficiency.

My only caveat to that is something that I haven't  had time to look into - and that's a job-seeker's potential allowance. No idea which country (host or origin) pays for that, nor how long the entitlement may last.