Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 284926 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1665 on: April 01, 2019, 08:26:14 PM »
IMO you are being deliberately obtuse.  If you want to believe that mass unemployment, a recession and rampant inflation has no effect on the well being of the nation that’s your problem.  Just think of all those happy people in places like Venezuela and Zimbabwe, so fortunate to be living in poverty and deprivation.

Are you saying that if I don't care and vote the UK will suffer mass unemployment, a recession and rampant inflation?
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1666 on: April 01, 2019, 08:45:45 PM »
Are you saying that if I don't care and vote the UK will suffer mass unemployment, a recession and rampant inflation?
Another ridiculous riposte IMO.  I didn’t say anything remotely like that so would you kindly stop making these sorts of posts, they do you no credit.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1667 on: April 01, 2019, 10:23:57 PM »
Another ridiculous riposte IMO.  I didn’t say anything remotely like that so would you kindly stop making these sorts of posts, they do you no credit.

I only wish I knew what the heck your point is. You have failed completely, imo, to explain why I should care or vote.

I see the MP's still can't say what they want. Isn't it time they accepted that it's not about what they want?
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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1668 on: April 01, 2019, 10:25:58 PM »
I only wish I knew what the heck your point is. You have failed completely, imo, to explain why I should care or vote.

I see the MP's still can't say what they want. Isn't it time they accepted that it's not about what they want?

You are wrong again.. MPs know exactly what they want... But they all want something  different

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1669 on: April 01, 2019, 10:41:31 PM »
I only wish I knew what the heck your point is. You have failed completely, imo, to explain why I should care or vote.

I see the MP's still can't say what they want. Isn't it time they accepted that it's not about what they want?
You shouldn’t care about the country your descendants will be living in and you shouldn’t vote as your vote is completely worthless, you should consider only yourself and what suits you best.  MPs should ignore their own concerns about the future of the country and should do what the people to tell them to do even if it’s a really disastrous thing to do, in their opinion.

Is that the correct answer?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline John

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1670 on: April 01, 2019, 10:51:53 PM »
You shouldn’t care about the country your descendants will be living in and you shouldn’t vote as your vote is completely worthless, you should consider only yourself and what suits you best.  MPs should ignore their own concerns about the future of the country and should do what the people to tell them to do even if it’s a really disastrous thing to do, in their opinion.

Is that the correct answer?

It's all scaremongering just like when the UK got smart and refused to join the Euro.  All the so-called experts were wrong then and they are wrong now. The world is lining up to do free trade deals with the UK so the future is bright. The sooner we get out the better. April 12th is looking good for a no deal exit.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1671 on: April 01, 2019, 11:03:37 PM »
It's all scaremongering just like when the UK got smart and refused to join the Euro.  All the so-called experts were wrong then and they are wrong now. The world is lining up to do free trade deals with the UK so the future is bright. The sooner we get out the better. April 12th is looking good for a no deal exit.
I really don’t think that’s going to happen, but in a sick kind of a way I hope it does.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1672 on: April 02, 2019, 08:48:39 AM »
You are wrong again.. MPs know exactly what they want... But they all want something  different

A lot of them want to revoke Article 50 but were too cowardly to vote for it last night.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1673 on: April 02, 2019, 09:24:12 AM »
You shouldn’t care about the country your descendants will be living in and you shouldn’t vote as your vote is completely worthless, you should consider only yourself and what suits you best.  MPs should ignore their own concerns about the future of the country and should do what the people to tell them to do even if it’s a really disastrous thing to do, in their opinion.

Is that the correct answer?

I said it's immaterial whether I care or not as I can't affect the future of the UK. I didn't vote in the referendum because I had no clear preference.

I care about people and this government has attacked the poorest and most disadvantaged from day one. The money they have saved is peanuts but the misery they have caused is huge. Some EU laws have helped people; minimum wages and holidays, for example.

On the other hand the EU's ambitions for ever closer integration make me uncomfortable.

I don't know if the UK will gain or lose if it leaves the EU and neither do MP's. I don't think they have the right to cause such mayhem and I think (and hope) many of them will lose their seats as a result.

 
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1674 on: April 02, 2019, 05:52:48 PM »
I said it's immaterial whether I care or not as I can't affect the future of the UK. I didn't vote in the referendum because I had no clear preference.

I care about people and this government has attacked the poorest and most disadvantaged from day one. The money they have saved is peanuts but the misery they have caused is huge. Some EU laws have helped people; minimum wages and holidays, for example.

On the other hand the EU's ambitions for ever closer integration make me uncomfortable.

I don't know if the UK will gain or lose if it leaves the EU and neither do MP's. I don't think they have the right to cause such mayhem and I think (and hope) many of them will lose their seats as a result.
Given that exiting from the EU without a deal takes us into unknown territory (by your own admission) which at the very least will almost certainly be dispruptive and at worst may seriously damage the interests of the UK, and its people as well as the Union itself, is it really a sensible and responsible thing for MPs to take us “over the edge” without a deal?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1675 on: April 02, 2019, 06:09:03 PM »
Put it this way, if Brexit happens even with a deal and the economy and wellbeing of the country goes on a downward spiral over the next 10 years whose fault will that be?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1676 on: April 03, 2019, 07:25:28 AM »
Another great article from Danny F in today’s Times:

How the EU can ensure Brexit never happens
Daniel FinkelsteinApril 2 2019, 5:00pm,
Smart negotiation strategy suggests Brussels should say ‘take your time’ to Britain to get the result it’s always wanted


A famous, if apocryphal, story is told of the French statesman Georges Clemenceau negotiating to buy a statuette in a bazaar. The shopkeeper offered it for “only” 75 rupees, while the Frenchman counteroffered with 45 rupees. After that, no matter the haggling, he refused to move. And there they were. Stuck.

Eventually the shopkeeper threw up his hands and said: “You are impossible! I’d rather give it to you.” Clemenceau smiled, pocketed the statuette and said: “Done.” And then he added: “You are very kind, and such a kindness could only come from a friend. Allow me to offer you a gift in return. Will you accept 45 rupees for use in charitable works?”

The shopkeeper accepted the money and they parted on good terms.

The European Union is close to a diplomatic and political triumph. Against all the odds it may be able to conclude its negotiation with the United Kingdom achieving everything it could possibly have wanted. All it needs to do now is show the wit, cunning and courage of Clemenceau in the bazaar.

Here is what I think it should do on April 10. Not what it necessarily will do — that changes every hour as Michel Barnier says one thing and Emmanuel Macron says something else — but what it should do. And what it should do is basically nothing. It should tell Britain that it can stay while it wants to. There will be no deadlines, no conditions, no meetings, no more negotiation. Britain should be told to go away and come back when it is ready.

This may strike the EU as counterintuitive. So I should emphasise that I am not proposing this in Britain’s interest, although I think it is. I am proposing this in the EU’s interest. I think it’s the right thing for it to do if it wants to secure a triumph.

In his book Getting Past No, William Ury, one of the founders of the Harvard Program on Negotiation, has this to say: “Breakthrough negotiation is the art of letting the other person have your way.” And the starting point is identifying both your own interests and your Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement, or Batna. In other words, the arrangement you have to fall back on if you can’t reach a deal. To give an example of a Batna, you are in a much stronger position when negotiating your salary if you have another job offer you can accept if your employer won’t give you a pay rise.

It’s always been in the EU’s interests that Britain should remain a member but that Brussels should not have to abandon its basic principles and in particular its four freedoms: the movement of labour, capital, goods and services. Since at the outset of negotiations this seemed unlikely, the EU has been seeking the best deal short of that. And it’s been helped by the fact that it has a fairly strong Batna and that Britain has a weak one. If the EU can’t get a deal, it can live with the alternative. If Britain can’t, the alternative of living with no deal looks pretty dreadful.

However, it is easy in negotiations to overestimate your Batna. The hard Brexiteers have made this mistake, leading them to wildly overplay a pretty weak hand. Brussels must not make the same mistake. Its Batna is stronger than Britain’s but there are many negotiated deals that would be far better for it than its fallback position.

So it’s still in Brussels’ interests to hang on and get a deal. A deal that would once have seemed highly unlikely but which the grisly errors of the inept hard Brexiteers have made possible. In short, the EU can reasonably aim to keep Britain as a full member.

There is one big thing in the way of securing a good deal. It seems odd to say this when Britain’s behaviour has been so wayward. But the biggest obstacle to Brussels getting what it wants is the EU itself. One of the main obstacles in the way of a successful negotiation is frustration. Who wouldn’t be frustrated negotiating with us? It’s completely understandable.

And totally counterproductive. The overwhelming temptation when dealing with difficult people is to give up and walk out. And that is why Ury advises that “the first step is to control your own behaviour. Instead of reacting, you need to regain your mental balance and stay focused on achieving what you want. The first challenge is don’t react.” This is known as “going to the balcony”, a place from which you can calmly see the problem.

Frustration would dictate telling Britain that if it can’t meet the Brexit deadline and can’t make up its mind what to do next, it should get stuffed. The EU has a life to lead and it is fed up with the uncertainty. Yet from the balcony things look different.

There is no majority in parliament for leaving without a deal. An attempt by the government to make it do so would fail. It is therefore only the EU that can insist on no deal. And, aside from frustration, why would it do so?

Once a long extension to our negotiations with the EU begins there is a good chance that Brexit will never happen. The most likely scenario is that an attempt by the government to break the deadlock, possibly under a new, harder-line prime minister, brings the Tory government to an end. And it is replaced by a Jeremy Corbyn government elected on a promise of a referendum that offers the choice between remaining and a soft Brexit. Alternatively (a smaller chance, this) the Tories may belatedly appreciate that a second referendum is better for them than an election.

What is the downside in waiting for this? The worst that can happen is that a no-deal prime minister somehow survives or wins an election or, ultimately, that no-deal wins a referendum. Then the EU would be back to its Batna. Which is where it would be in a week’s time anyway. So it will have lost little.

An alternative strategy, of course, would be to make an extension contingent on Britain holding a second referendum. Or using the timetable to try to force a choice between revoking Article 50 and no deal. Yet both these contradict the theory of good negotiation.

The EU wants to win the war, not the battle. It shouldn’t force Britain to a conclusion it will reject or resent. It should instead allow the country to reach its own conclusion. As Ury puts it, “an imposed outcome is an unstable one. Even if you have a decisive power advantage, you should think twice before lunging for victory.” Britain has been offered a deal which it should have accepted but seems likely to reject. Does the EU have the imagination to realise this is not a threat? It’s an opportunity.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1677 on: April 03, 2019, 11:50:23 AM »
Given that exiting from the EU without a deal takes us into unknown territory (by your own admission) which at the very least will almost certainly be dispruptive and at worst may seriously damage the interests of the UK, and its people as well as the Union itself, is it really a sensible and responsible thing for MPs to take us “over the edge” without a deal?

The only reason we might leave without a deal is because MP's have rejected the withdrawal agreement agreed by the EU and HM Governmebt. The problem is of their making and the solution is in their hands; vote for the WA and move on with negotiating our future relationship.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1678 on: April 03, 2019, 12:18:01 PM »
Another great article from Danny F in today’s Times:

How the EU can ensure Brexit never happens
Daniel FinkelsteinApril 2 2019, 5:00pm,
Smart negotiation strategy suggests Brussels should say ‘take your time’ to Britain to get the result it’s always wanted


A famous, if apocryphal, story is told of the French statesman Georges Clemenceau negotiating to buy a statuette in a bazaar. The shopkeeper offered it for “only” 75 rupees, while the Frenchman counteroffered with 45 rupees. After that, no matter the haggling, he refused to move. And there they were. Stuck.

Eventually the shopkeeper threw up his hands and said: “You are impossible! I’d rather give it to you.” Clemenceau smiled, pocketed the statuette and said: “Done.” And then he added: “You are very kind, and such a kindness could only come from a friend. Allow me to offer you a gift in return. Will you accept 45 rupees for use in charitable works?”

The shopkeeper accepted the money and they parted on good terms.

The European Union is close to a diplomatic and political triumph. Against all the odds it may be able to conclude its negotiation with the United Kingdom achieving everything it could possibly have wanted. All it needs to do now is show the wit, cunning and courage of Clemenceau in the bazaar.

Here is what I think it should do on April 10. Not what it necessarily will do — that changes every hour as Michel Barnier says one thing and Emmanuel Macron says something else — but what it should do. And what it should do is basically nothing. It should tell Britain that it can stay while it wants to. There will be no deadlines, no conditions, no meetings, no more negotiation. Britain should be told to go away and come back when it is ready.

This may strike the EU as counterintuitive. So I should emphasise that I am not proposing this in Britain’s interest, although I think it is. I am proposing this in the EU’s interest. I think it’s the right thing for it to do if it wants to secure a triumph.

In his book Getting Past No, William Ury, one of the founders of the Harvard Program on Negotiation, has this to say: “Breakthrough negotiation is the art of letting the other person have your way.” And the starting point is identifying both your own interests and your Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement, or Batna. In other words, the arrangement you have to fall back on if you can’t reach a deal. To give an example of a Batna, you are in a much stronger position when negotiating your salary if you have another job offer you can accept if your employer won’t give you a pay rise.

It’s always been in the EU’s interests that Britain should remain a member but that Brussels should not have to abandon its basic principles and in particular its four freedoms: the movement of labour, capital, goods and services. Since at the outset of negotiations this seemed unlikely, the EU has been seeking the best deal short of that. And it’s been helped by the fact that it has a fairly strong Batna and that Britain has a weak one. If the EU can’t get a deal, it can live with the alternative. If Britain can’t, the alternative of living with no deal looks pretty dreadful.

However, it is easy in negotiations to overestimate your Batna. The hard Brexiteers have made this mistake, leading them to wildly overplay a pretty weak hand. Brussels must not make the same mistake. Its Batna is stronger than Britain’s but there are many negotiated deals that would be far better for it than its fallback position.

So it’s still in Brussels’ interests to hang on and get a deal. A deal that would once have seemed highly unlikely but which the grisly errors of the inept hard Brexiteers have made possible. In short, the EU can reasonably aim to keep Britain as a full member.

There is one big thing in the way of securing a good deal. It seems odd to say this when Britain’s behaviour has been so wayward. But the biggest obstacle to Brussels getting what it wants is the EU itself. One of the main obstacles in the way of a successful negotiation is frustration. Who wouldn’t be frustrated negotiating with us? It’s completely understandable.

And totally counterproductive. The overwhelming temptation when dealing with difficult people is to give up and walk out. And that is why Ury advises that “the first step is to control your own behaviour. Instead of reacting, you need to regain your mental balance and stay focused on achieving what you want. The first challenge is don’t react.” This is known as “going to the balcony”, a place from which you can calmly see the problem.

Frustration would dictate telling Britain that if it can’t meet the Brexit deadline and can’t make up its mind what to do next, it should get stuffed. The EU has a life to lead and it is fed up with the uncertainty. Yet from the balcony things look different.

There is no majority in parliament for leaving without a deal. An attempt by the government to make it do so would fail. It is therefore only the EU that can insist on no deal. And, aside from frustration, why would it do so?

Once a long extension to our negotiations with the EU begins there is a good chance that Brexit will never happen. The most likely scenario is that an attempt by the government to break the deadlock, possibly under a new, harder-line prime minister, brings the Tory government to an end. And it is replaced by a Jeremy Corbyn government elected on a promise of a referendum that offers the choice between remaining and a soft Brexit. Alternatively (a smaller chance, this) the Tories may belatedly appreciate that a second referendum is better for them than an election.

What is the downside in waiting for this? The worst that can happen is that a no-deal prime minister somehow survives or wins an election or, ultimately, that no-deal wins a referendum. Then the EU would be back to its Batna. Which is where it would be in a week’s time anyway. So it will have lost little.

An alternative strategy, of course, would be to make an extension contingent on Britain holding a second referendum. Or using the timetable to try to force a choice between revoking Article 50 and no deal. Yet both these contradict the theory of good negotiation.

The EU wants to win the war, not the battle. It shouldn’t force Britain to a conclusion it will reject or resent. It should instead allow the country to reach its own conclusion. As Ury puts it, “an imposed outcome is an unstable one. Even if you have a decisive power advantage, you should think twice before lunging for victory.” Britain has been offered a deal which it should have accepted but seems likely to reject. Does the EU have the imagination to realise this is not a threat? It’s an opportunity.

It is a good article but I'm not convinced that advising the EU how to trap Britain into staying in the EU is entirely admirable.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1679 on: April 03, 2019, 12:40:57 PM »
It is a good article but I'm not convinced that advising the EU how to trap Britain into staying in the EU is entirely admirable.
They're a bright lot at the EU, I'm sure they'd already worked it out for themselves without Danny's help... 8(0(*
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly