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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 02:48:51 PM

Title: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 11, 2015, 02:48:51 PM
I n view of what we understand about the alerts, does anyone condone what amaral said in his book.....

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


he uses the word "certainly"....does anyone think this is an acceptable statement from an experienced policeman


973

3124-3277
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 11, 2015, 08:27:31 PM
I n view of what we understand about the alerts, does anyone condone what amaral said in his book.....

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


he uses the word "certainly"....does anyone think this is an acceptable statement from an experienced policeman

No (IMO), I don't find the word "certainly" to be acceptable. ETA: the word "certainly" doesn't seem to appear in the original text.

On the one hand, I don't think that Grime / Harrison were clear about the limitations of the dogs, nor about the fact that no significance should be attached to alerts in the absence of corroborating forensic evidence in the "dog-selling" stage. Portugal wasn't familiar with such dogs, so I can understand in a way how Amaral & co., could have felt that they were close to hitting the "jackpot" when they did alert.

On the other hand, the caveats were clear in the reports, but Amaral seems to have ignored them. Neither did he understand the forensic results associated with those alerts, which should have been an indication that that avenue wasn't going anywhere.

I don't see how any casual reader, who assumes that the former coordinator was indeed a highly knowledgeable and seasoned expert, could fail to come to the conclusion that she did indeed die there when in reality there is no evidence to support it.

Why would anyone who believed in Amaral's "thesis" continue to be vigilant?

A tragedy of errors...

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 11, 2015, 08:44:21 PM
I n view of what we understand about the alerts, does anyone condone what amaral said in his book.....

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


he uses the word "certainly"....does anyone think this is an acceptable statement from an experienced policeman
I think it's a prime example of the idiocy (or is it something darker...?) of the author.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 11, 2015, 10:44:45 PM
I n view of what we understand about the alerts, does anyone condone what amaral said in his book.....

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


he uses the word "certainly"....does anyone think this is an acceptable statement from an experienced policeman


Even considering the hard sell of the dogs combined with the desire to close the case it is still surprising the police behaved like complete amateurs.  Once the situation was explained the stubbornness with which the original misinterpretation of the dogs' alerts was promoted, to the extent it was the excuse to declare the McCanns arguido is extraordinary.

Even the highly transferable nature of the odour associated with human remains was poorly understood with people being asked about death and bleeding within the apartment not if they had been in contact with a dead person.

For example police officers were not asked if they had been in contact with bodies.
Holidaymakers more recently in residence were not asked were not asked if they had used luggage stored in a room in which a person had died ~ or suffered a recent family bereavement.
The holiday maker who was a surgical assistant was not asked what her work entailed.

Once the theory had been decided and the book written, that was it, no going back ... and the campaign proper was under way.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 11, 2015, 11:59:49 PM
The original Portuguese translates into English with a quite different slant.  Roughly speaking "It was concluded that the cadaver odour could only have come from one person : MBM".

This sticks an IF into the equation.  IF it was cadaver odour THEN it came from MBM.  He's stacked up a get out of jail card if the dogs prove to be wrong in this case.

Amaral is normally a lot smarter with his choice of words than the translators who translate him into other languages.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 12, 2015, 12:14:39 AM
The dogs gave their evidence and SY are following up on it. The dogs won't alert unless they are certain! SY will be further investigating their alerts re new forensic tests. The British police do not ignore professional British police crime dog evidence. If death did occur and the body was moved then the car boot is the obvious place to search for potential evidence. If you find any possible matching evidence in that location and other witness evidence then the police become very suspicious. They won't ignore the dog alerts in this case as recent events indicate.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02933/mccann-search-port_2933254b.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 12:36:14 AM
The original Portuguese translates into English with a quite different slant.  Roughly speaking "It was concluded that the cadaver odour could only have come from one person : MBM".

This sticks an IF into the equation.  IF it was cadaver odour THEN it came from MBM.  He's stacked up a get out of jail card if the dogs prove to be wrong in this case.

Amaral is normally a lot smarter with his choice of words than the translators who translate him into other languages.

Under no circumstance is it possible to determine whose remains a VRD may be alerting to without a body being discovered.  So he may have used his words carefully but IMO not carefully enough.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 12:40:33 AM
The dogs gave their evidence and SY are following up on it. The dogs won't alert unless they are certain! SY will be further investigating their alerts re new forensic tests. The British police do not ignore professional British police crime dog evidence. If death did occur and the body was moved then the car boot is the obvious place to search for potential evidence. If you find any possible matching evidence in that location and other witness evidence then the police become very suspicious. They won't ignore the dog alerts in this case as recent events indicate.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02933/mccann-search-port_2933254b.jpg)

Dogs do not give evidence ... they indicate places where evidence may be found ... Eddie and Keela's work in Praia da Luz uncovered no forensic evidence which implicated Madeleine McCann's parents in her disappearance.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 12, 2015, 02:50:13 AM
Under no circumstance is it possible to determine whose remains a VRD may be alerting to without a body being discovered.  So he may have used his words carefully but IMO not carefully enough.
I have simply pointed out that he did not use certainly (certamente, com certezo).  He used proveniente (originating from, arising from).  Plus a construct that is poder ser (maybe, it could be, it might be).  Then he stuck in a só (only).
The translator has had a stab at what Amaral might or might not have said, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm just not getting a 'certainly' here.  I believe that 'certainly' is what the topic is about.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 12, 2015, 07:26:56 AM
Dogs do not give evidence ... they indicate places where evidence may be found ... Eddie and Keela's work in Praia da Luz uncovered no forensic evidence which implicated Madeleine McCann's parents in her disappearance.

Go ask Adrian Prout what he thinks about Eddie. The police found no forensic evidence but put all their focus on him after Eddie's alert (they said he wasn't a suspect). Underestimate reliable and case proven police dogs at your peril. What they say publicly and what they think privately can be worlds apart.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 07:31:30 AM
From what I can see amaral has lied to his readers. He has seriously misled them. Most of his support comes from the fact that people believe his lies.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 07:54:10 AM
The original Portuguese translates into English with a quite different slant.  Roughly speaking "It was concluded that the cadaver odour could only have come from one person : MBM".

This sticks an IF into the equation.  IF it was cadaver odour THEN it came from MBM.  He's stacked up a get out of jail card if the dogs prove to be wrong in this case.

Amaral is normally a lot smarter with his choice of words than the translators who translate him into other languages.

there is no "if"  there.....it is quite clear...the cadaver odour could only have come from one person.....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 12, 2015, 09:22:38 AM
From what I can see amaral has lied to his readers. He has seriously misled them. Most of his support comes from the fact that people believe his lies.

I agree.

The fact that he gave his readers no clue whatsoever  that he had never met or spoken to Kate McCann in his life - and had only met Gerry once was blatently dishonest IMO  - as people buying his book thought they were getting a first hand account.

Similarly - his readers would have no idea that on Day One (4th May) he was busily engaged elsewhere being made an arguido himself -  as he made no mention of that either.

The rest of his book is littered with lies, half-truths, lies by omission and nasty innuendo.

To say his readers were misled - particularly about the dogs  - is putting it mildly IMO.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 12, 2015, 10:23:48 AM
I have simply pointed out that he did not use certainly (certamente, com certezo).  He used proveniente (originating from, arising from).  Plus a construct that is poder ser (maybe, it could be, it might be).  Then he stuck in a só (only).
The translator has had a stab at what Amaral might or might not have said, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm just not getting a 'certainly' here.  I believe that 'certainly' is what the topic is about.
Oh well back to the drawing board  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 11:21:00 AM
The original Portuguese translates into English with a quite different slant.  Roughly speaking "It was concluded that the cadaver odour could only have come from one person : MBM".

This sticks an IF into the equation.  IF it was cadaver odour THEN it came from MBM.  He's stacked up a get out of jail card if the dogs prove to be wrong in this case.

Amaral is normally a lot smarter with his choice of words than the translators who translate him into other languages.

Or his editor.

But that caution went out of the window with his narration:

In the next 50 minutes I will prove that the child was not abducted and died in the holiday apartment in Praia da Luz (No. 41).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 12:05:51 PM
I have simply pointed out that he did not use certainly (certamente, com certezo).  He used proveniente (originating from, arising from).  Plus a construct that is poder ser (maybe, it could be, it might be).  Then he stuck in a só (only).
The translator has had a stab at what Amaral might or might not have said, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm just not getting a 'certainly' here.  I believe that 'certainly' is what the topic is about.

It is actually quite a wide ranging topic which was milked for all it was worth by TV pundits such as Amaral, Cristovão and Sargento, with the original misinterpretation of all the evidence, including the erroneous conclusions he reached through ignorance? of how it actually works as far as the dogs are concerned being churned out continually to an audience who were led to believe in the 'professional judgement' of these 'experts'.

The Portuguese audience were not misled by poor translations.  If they bought the book it was the original. 

Any mistranslations in his book ... which actually were nothing to do with him except to eat into his profiteering ... have been accepted by an English or French target audience ... just as the mistranslation of parts of the files has been.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 12:17:43 PM
I have simply pointed out that he did not use certainly (certamente, com certezo).  He used proveniente (originating from, arising from).  Plus a construct that is poder ser (maybe, it could be, it might be).  Then he stuck in a só (only).
The translator has had a stab at what Amaral might or might not have said, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm just not getting a 'certainly' here.  I believe that 'certainly' is what the topic is about.


Existiam sinais de morte no apartamento 5A. Era agora necessário comprovar que naquele apartamento, antes de 3 de Maio de 2007, ninguém tinha morrido. Os registos do Ocean Club não relatavam qualquer incidente desse tipo, os bombeiros e serviços paramédicos locais também desconheciam qualquer morte no apartamento. Os anteriores proprietários também não conheciam a ocorrência de qualquer morte. Concluiu-se, então, que aquele odor de cadáver só poderia ser proveniente de uma pessoa: Madeleine Beth McCann.



OK, I agree that I can't see certainly in there and I should have checked the PT version prior to making a comment.
 
However, I understand that sentence to mean: The conclusion, therefore, was that that cadaver scent could only have come from one person: Madeleine Beth McCann.

Or have I misunderstood the original?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 01:25:47 PM
No (IMO), I don't find the word "certainly" to be acceptable.

On the one hand, I don't think that Grime / Harrison were clear about the limitations of the dogs, nor about the fact that no significance should be attached to alerts in the absence of corroborating forensic evidence in the "dog-selling" stage. Portugal wasn't familiar with such dogs, so I can understand in a way how Amaral & co., could have felt that they were close to hitting the "jackpot" when they did alert.

On the other hand, the caveats were clear in the reports, but Amaral seems to have ignored them. Neither did he understand the forensic results associated with those alerts, which should have been an indication that that avenue wasn't going anywhere.

I don't see how any casual reader, who assumes that the former coordinator was indeed a highly knowledgeable and seasoned expert, could fail to come to the conclusion that she did indeed die there when in reality there is no evidence to support it.

Why would anyone who believed in Amaral's "thesis" continue to be vigilant?

A tragedy of errors...

Not at the dog-selling stage, no.

But Harrison's second report, written some 3 months before Amaral was booted off the case, and fully and legally accessible to Amaral, at least the point he was booted off, makes abundantly plain what limitations should be placed on (uncorroborated) dog alerts.

Amaral only had to read Harrison's report.

In fairness, even Grime says that uncorroborated dog alerts have no evidential value.

Amaral only had to read these things.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 01:28:31 PM
It's true to say that Amaral's team could find no evidence of abduction or of woke and wandered. They were skeptical of Jane Tanner's sighting and found the statements of the Tapas 9 less than believable. Lee Rainbow allegedly agreed that there was cause to look at the parents. Hence in July 2007 Mark Harrison was called in to give his opinion on how to conduct a search for a dead body rather than a live child, something he saw as a reasonable assumption.

I think the alerts confirmed the investigator's suspicions rather than the suspicions having arisen from the alerts. Amaral's evidence is all circumstantial, but he believed that it was enough to reach a conclusion.

This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive. It has now begun to consider further opportunities to re search locations in order to address the possibility that she has been murdered and concealed nearby. This would be a proportionate and appropriate response given the elapsed time since her disappearance and previous experience in such similar cases.

It was Harrison who suggested using dogs;

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm




Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 01:36:55 PM
Not at the dog-selling stage, no.

But Harrison's second report, written some 3 months before Amaral was booted off the case, and fully and legally accessible to Amaral, at least the point he was booted off, makes abundantly plain what limitations should be placed on (uncorroborated) dog alerts.

Amaral only had to read Harrison's report.

In fairness, even Grime says that uncorroborated dog alerts have no evidential value.

Amaral only had to read these things.

And yet he chose not to take those reports into account... why would that be?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 01:40:00 PM
It's true to say that Amaral's team could find no evidence of abduction or of woke and wandered. They were skeptical of Jane Tanner's sighting and found the statements of the Tapas 9 less than believable. Lee Rainbow allegedly agreed that there was cause to look at the parents. Hence in July 2007 Mark Harrison was called in to give his opinion on how to conduct a search for a dead body rather than a live child, something he saw as a reasonable assumption.

I think the alerts confirmed the investigator's suspicions rather than the suspicions having arisen from the alerts. Amaral's evidence is all circumstantial, but he believed that it was enough to reach a conclusion.

This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive. It has now begun to consider further opportunities to re search locations in order to address the possibility that she has been murdered and concealed nearby. This would be a proportionate and appropriate response given the elapsed time since her disappearance and previous experience in such similar cases.

It was Harrison who suggested using dogs;

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
amarals conclusions do not follow the evidence...he has basically lied and misled people. As a policeman it would be expected his opinions would based on evidence and be honest. they are neither
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 01:50:47 PM
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

Hmmmm.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 02:00:58 PM
During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

Mark Harrison.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 12, 2015, 02:04:34 PM
And yet he chose not to take those reports into account... why would that be?

Because  - instead of following the evidence and arriving at a conclusion - he arrived at his conclusion first - then cherry-picked any 'evidence' which supported that conclusion - whilst studiously turning a blind eye to anything that didn't.   

The fact that Eddie alerted to cadaverscent suited him.   The reports did not suit him - so he ignored them imo.

It's easy to make a case against anyone using those tactics.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 02:05:57 PM
The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

Hmmmm.

That was before searches were conducted, and before Harrison observed how they were conducted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 02:08:53 PM
During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

Mark Harrison.

And that report was dated 22.07.2007... i.e., well before Amaral was taken off the case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 02:20:45 PM
During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

Mark Harrison.

NO INFERENCE CAN BE DRAWN...could everyone make a note of that
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 02:34:53 PM
After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.

AMAZING STATISTICS

Great Britain has at its disposal the world's biggest data bank on homicide of children under five years old. Since 1960, the count is 1528. Harrison is well acquainted with its contents. He often draws information from there which helps him to resolve similar cases. Valuable information can be found there on on various criminal modus operandi, places where bodies are hidden, techniques used to get rid of a body. He relates that on one occasion, thanks to the data, he was able to deduce the maximum distance a body might be found in relation to where the crime had been committed.

The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.


(Goncalo Amaral)

And (some) people wonder why Amaral lost!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 02:55:09 PM
After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.

AMAZING STATISTICS

Great Britain has at its disposal the world's biggest data bank on homicide of children under five years old. Since 1960, the count is 1528. Harrison is well acquainted with its contents. He often draws information from there which helps him to resolve similar cases. Valuable information can be found there on on various criminal modus operandi, places where bodies are hidden, techniques used to get rid of a body. He relates that on one occasion, thanks to the data, he was able to deduce the maximum distance a body might be found in relation to where the crime had been committed.

The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.


(Goncalo Amaral)

And (some) people wonder why Amaral lost!

Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 03:04:40 PM
Said expert never issued any such advice.

Neither did he investigate family or friends.

Instead, following the brief handed to him by the PJ, he looked for evidence that might indicate a particular line of enquiry -- and found none.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 03:34:27 PM
Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?

And the expert of "26 years' experience" in the PJ didn't realise that that should be standard procedure right from the beginning?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 04:16:20 PM
Compare this:

The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

(Goncalo Amaral, purporting to relate what Mark Harrison said)

With ...

(more in edit).

The penultimate sentence and paragraph of Harrison's third and final report:

I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz.


Do some people still not get why Amaral lost?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 05:28:43 PM
Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?


I think part of the problem may well have been over reliance on an interpretation of the expert advice which was based on a total misinterpretation of what they were being told.

The Interim Report which Mr Amaral used extensively in his book illustrates perfectly both a misunderstanding of custom and practice and the role of the dogs in an investigation.


**snip
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
( convicted of torture ...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0)

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

**

For example he laboured under the impression that the dogs had 100% success rate.  He thought that if the dog alerted that was verification that human remains had been present in that location with a total disregard for the need that such an assertion must be backed up by evidence.

All of those assertions were nullified by proper interpretation of the FSS reports.  So there are experts and there are experts and some of the danger lies in thinking the expert has told you what you want to hear not what was actually said.





Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 05:32:31 PM
Because he followed the advice of an expert to investigate the family and friends?

there is nothing wrong with investigating family and friends...it's standard police procedure. The point of the thread is that amaral has lied about the significance of the alerts and because he is an experienced police officer some people have believed him.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 05:46:13 PM
there is nothing wrong with investigating family and friends...it's standard police procedure. The point of the thread is that amaral has lied about the significance of the alerts and because he is an experienced police officer some people have believed him.

Misinterpretation is one thing.

Outright fabrication (what Amaral is guilty of) is another ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 12, 2015, 07:30:25 PM

I think part of the problem may well have been over reliance on an interpretation of the expert advice which was based on a total misinterpretation of what they were being told.

The Interim Report which Mr Amaral used extensively in his book illustrates perfectly both a misunderstanding of custom and practice and the role of the dogs in an investigation.


**snip
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
( convicted of torture ...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0)

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

**

For example he laboured under the impression that the dogs had 100% success rate.  He thought that if the dog alerted that was verification that human remains had been present in that location with a total disregard for the need that such an assertion must be backed up by evidence.

All of those assertions were nullified by proper interpretation of the FSS reports.  So there are experts and there are experts and some of the danger lies in thinking the expert has told you what you want to hear not what was actually said.


That's a delicate way of formulating the situation. ;)

However, he doesn't actually explain why he didn't take into account the dog / forensic reports sent in during his tenure.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 08:17:43 PM

I think part of the problem may well have been over reliance on an interpretation of the expert advice which was based on a total misinterpretation of what they were being told.

The Interim Report which Mr Amaral used extensively in his book illustrates perfectly both a misunderstanding of custom and practice and the role of the dogs in an investigation.


**snip
A report by Chief Inspector Tavares de Almeida to the Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
( convicted of torture ...  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2140.0)

Where he concludes, after analyzing all the evidence gathered, that the child is dead and the parents were responsible for cadaver occultation, and the entire GROUP was lying since the first day of the investigation.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

**

For example he laboured under the impression that the dogs had 100% success rate.  He thought that if the dog alerted that was verification that human remains had been present in that location with a total disregard for the need that such an assertion must be backed up by evidence.

All of those assertions were nullified by proper interpretation of the FSS reports.  So there are experts and there are experts and some of the danger lies in thinking the expert has told you what you want to hear not what was actually said.

What evidence did Almeida actually refer to? It seems the alerts were just the final bit which convinced the investigators that their already existing suspicions were correct.

1. The fact that the parents insisted on the abduction scenario from the beginning, and publicised their opinion using the media.
2. The whole group appear to have agreed together on the frequency of checking. Their statements are so incoherent that they all appear to be lying.
3. Jane Tanner's sighting is not very convincing, particularly as Gerry didn't even see her. Her description of the man kept changing also.
4. Simple things became disinformation: the question of the opened or closed window; the shutter up or down; the balcony door opened' the front door, locked or open.
5. Nevertheless, before the Media they kept (and keep) declaring their hope on finding their daughter alive: the first time that the hypothesis of the death of the little girl was raised it was, effectively, suggested by the McCann. (Krugel)
6. Although the parents publicised how much they wanted to help the investigation, most of the above points demonstrate how, in fact, they were spreading confusion.
7. The story was changed constantly in order to explain facts as they emerged.
8. Publicity was insisted on despite warnings that this could lead to the child being harmed.
9. Simulation of the scene was suspected.

The work done by the dog team, in Portugal, brought conviction of this slope [ angle] / proposition [ theory] of the investigation, not that it had been ignored previously, but because they [the dogs] could have determined the place where clues / trace evidence could be recovered that could be, scientifically, proven.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 08:35:29 PM
It seems the alerts were just the final bit which convinced the investigators ...

Which investigators?

Certainly not Harrison, as I've already posted ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
It seems the alerts were just the final bit which convinced the investigators ...

Which investigators?

Certainly not Harrison, as I've already posted ...

The Portuguese police who were investigating the case. Harrison was an advisor.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 12, 2015, 08:42:21 PM
Good balancing post there G-Unit. Here are a few observations/comments from me, thinking out loud from memory.

-The Portuguese at the time had no experience, moreover, had never heard of cadaver dogs (source:Police spokesman)
-A British expert advised them in general on the search for a body
-A British expert suggested the dogs be sent into the Mccanns' and friends' holidays residences and vehicles (M Harrison)
-There was the challenge of the different languages at play here to consider
-I believe it is unfair to say Amaral fabricated things, as opposed to his team not understanding every nuance, and not crossing the t's and dotting the i's
-They put together all the evidence in the case and his team at the time came to certain conclusions about what they think happened
-They were under pressure to solve a case as are British police all the time
IMO they did not act any different to how any other police force would act
-There is no proof to this date that the wrong people were implicated or that Madeleine Mccann is alive, the reverse being true also
-The Portuguese CPS at the time decided not to charge them

It is interesting though how Mr Amarals's book has been described as "full of lies", despite a higher court ruling saying no such thing, no mitigation given to "translation errors", to "what one would have done at the time" as opposed to "in hindsight" ad infinitum, as is given to the Mccann couple and friends for every possible discrepancy or questionable statement/action/event
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 12, 2015, 08:45:42 PM
The Portuguese police who were investigating the case. Harrison was an advisor.

Ah!

But I take it you would accept that the Portuguese police, witnessing dogs of their type (Keela and Eddie) in action for the first time ever, and knowing nothing about them, would listen to those experienced and adept at interpreting their reactions before reaching any conclusions of their own, and doubtless would consider themselves ill-equipped to contradict what those experienced in use or deployment of the dogs might have to say.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 09:00:43 PM
Good balancing post there G-Unit. Here are a few observations/comments from me, thinking out loud from memory.

-The Portuguese at the time had no experience, moreover, had never heard of cadaver dogs (source:Police spokesman)
-A British expert advised them in general on the search for a body
-A British expert suggested the dogs be sent into the Mccanns' and friends' holidays residences and vehicles (M Harrison)
-There was the challenge of the different languages at play here to consider
-I believe it is unfair to say Amaral fabricated things, as opposed to his team not understanding every nuance, and not crossing the t's and dotting the i's
-They put together all the evidence in the case and his team at the time came to certain conclusions about what they think happened
-They were under pressure to solve a case as are British police all the time
IMO they did not act any different to how any other police force would act
-There is no proof to this date that the wrong people were implicated or that Madeleine Mccann is alive, the reverse being true also
-The Portuguese CPS at the time decided not to charge them

It is interesting though how Mr Amarals's book has been described as "full of lies", despite a higher court ruling saying no such thing, no mitigation given to "translation errors", to "what one would have done at the time" as opposed to "in hindsight" ad infinitum, as is given to the Mccann couple and friends for every possible discrepancy or questionable statement/action/event

Thank you mercury. I agree with your points also. If anyone points out that Gerald McCann didn't remember the day after which door he used to go in and out of the apartment 'he was distraught'. If a statement by the parents is criticised 'it was probably mistranslated'. As you say, Amaral may not be right but he has not been proved wrong either.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 09:31:10 PM
Thank you mercury. I agree with your points also. If anyone points out that Gerald McCann didn't remember the day after which door he used to go in and out of the apartment 'he was distraught'. If a statement by the parents is criticised 'it was probably mistranslated'. As you say, Amaral may not be right but he has not been proved wrong either.

Amaral has been proved wrong...this is wrong...

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


He has also claimed that he could prove Maddie dies in5a...he can't...he's telling lies again
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 09:34:59 PM
Remember that the evidence amaral claimed pointed to the McCanns was discounted by the archiving report
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 09:52:10 PM
Amaral has been proved wrong...this is wrong...

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


He has also claimed that he could prove Maddie dies in5a...he can't...he's telling lies again

Amaral's theory has as much validy as any other at this moment in time. When someone proves that something else happened, then he is wrong.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 12, 2015, 09:58:01 PM
Amaral's theory has as much validy as any other at this moment in time. When someone proves that something else happened, then he is wrong.

try and keep up..it's not his theory we are criticising..it's his claims that the evidence proves his theory..it doesn't..he is lying
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 12, 2015, 11:32:57 PM
try and keep up..it's not his theory we are criticising..it's his claims that the evidence proves his theory..it doesn't..he is lying

I prefer to think he actually believed what he was saying; that the evidence proved his theory. I would imagine it happens a lot to policemen even here in the UK. They present the evidence they've gathered and the CPS says 'not good enough'.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 12, 2015, 11:49:28 PM
I prefer to think he actually believed what he was saying; that the evidence proved his theory. I would imagine it happens a lot to policemen even here in the UK. They present the evidence they've gathered and the CPS says 'not good enough'.

It is an elementary mistake to formulate a theory then try to make the evidence fit.  If you prefer to think he actually believed it what you are saying that he is unprofessional and a fool.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 06:52:06 AM
I prefer to think he actually believed what he was saying; that the evidence proved his theory. I would imagine it happens a lot to policemen even here in the UK. They present the evidence they've gathered and the CPS says 'not good enough'.

The fact is amaral had no evidence. he can think what he wants and have what theories he wants...but when he says he can prove Maddie died in the apartment he is lying. He ignored the advice of the experts...Harrison and grime and continued to lie. that is a serious allegation..but it's true
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2015, 08:01:52 AM
It is an elementary mistake to formulate a theory then try to make the evidence fit.  If you prefer to think he actually believed it what you are saying that he is unprofessional and a fool.


I'm not saying he formulated a theory first. There were a lot of things done and said by the parents and their friends which made them look guilty. The dog alerts were the final piece in the jigsaw for the police. All circumstantial evidence, but I think he believed it all added up to proof. You may not like it, but it's a fact that lots of people began to wonder about the parent's story some time before the PJ Files were released.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 08:06:39 AM


I'm not saying he formulated a theory first. There were a lot of things done and said by the parents and their friends which made them look guilty. The dog alerts were the final piece in the jigsaw for the police. All circumstantial evidence, but I think he believed it all added up to proof. You may not like it, but it's a fact that lots of people began to wonder about the parent's story some time before the PJ Files were released.

lots of people question the parents..fair enough. Amarael lied about the evidence...disgraceful
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 08:11:12 AM
lots of people question the parents..fair enough. Amarael lied about the evidence...disgraceful

He misinterpreted the evidence dave.

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 08:24:39 AM
He misinterpreted the evidence dave.

Harrison and Grime have made it clear what the alerts signify...Amaral lied
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 13, 2015, 08:27:00 AM
Harrison and Grime have made it clear what the alerts signify...Amaral lied

He selected a narrative that fitted the available evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 08:28:02 AM
Harrison and Grime have made it clear what the alerts signify...Amaral lied

Did Amaral first read Harrison and Grimes full reports ?

Were they written in English and/or Portuguese ?

How many others in the PJ thought the same about the mccanns ?



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 08:29:35 AM
He selected a narrative that fitted the available evidence.

he lied...he stated he could prove maddie died in the apartment.....using the evidence of the dogs...he couldn't..he lied
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 08:30:23 AM
Did Amaral first read Harrison and Grimes full reports ?

Were they written in English and/or Portuguese ?

How many others in the PJ thought the same about the mccanns ?

Grimes rogatory would have been translated into Portuguese...amaral lied about the dogs
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 13, 2015, 08:30:59 AM
He misinterpreted the evidence dave.

He didn't misinterpret the evidence either. He wasn't a one man team investigating the disappearance. That is a myth spread by the supporters in order to diss the evidence and the dogs, the worst enemies of the McCanns.

What would any police force think if these specialist dogs alerted 11 times to only articles, houses and a car related to the parents and did not give any alerts to any other "suspects" such as Robert Murat?

Davel, you seem obsessed with those dogs. They bother you, don't they?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 08:36:16 AM
He didn't misinterpret the evidence either. He wasn't a one man team investigating the disappearance. That is a myth spread by the supporters in order to diss the evidence and the dogs, the worst enemies of the McCanns.

What would any police force think if these specialist dogs alerted 11 times to only articles, houses and a car related to the parents and did not give any alerts to any other "suspects" such as Robert Murat?

Davel, you seem obsessed with those dogs. They bother you, don't they?

You show how serious amaral's lies were and how they have convinced you. This is what Harrison said about the dogs and he's an expert..

However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.


Amaral lied about the dogs and you prove his lies have been believed
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 08:38:53 AM
He didn't misinterpret the evidence either. He wasn't a one man team investigating the disappearance. That is a myth spread by the supporters in order to diss the evidence and the dogs, the worst enemies of the McCanns.

What would any police force think if these specialist dogs alerted 11 times to only articles, houses and a car related to the parents and did not give any alerts to any other "suspects" such as Robert Murat?

Davel, you seem obsessed with those dogs. They bother you, don't they?

No one is dissing the dogs...I'm dissing amaral and you...you and amaral are ignoring what the experts say about the alerts
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 08:41:03 AM
You show how serious amaral's lies were and how they have convinced you. This is what Harrison said about the dogs and he's an expert..

However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.


Amaral lied about the dogs and you prove his lies have been believed


As I have said on numerous occasions, you take this very personally.

Now why is that
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 13, 2015, 08:42:05 AM
No one is dissing the dogs...I'm dissing amaral and you...you and amaral are ignoring what the experts say about the alerts

Now when exactly did Grime say the dogs did not alert to a body ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 10:23:22 AM
He didn't misinterpret the evidence either. He wasn't a one man team investigating the disappearance. That is a myth spread by the supporters in order to diss the evidence and the dogs, the worst enemies of the McCanns.

What would any police force think if these specialist dogs alerted 11 times to only articles, houses and a car related to the parents and did not give any alerts to any other "suspects" such as Robert Murat?

Davel, you seem obsessed with those dogs. They bother you, don't they?

How silly is that?

The dogs are no-ones enemy.  The dogs were merely doing what they were trained to do and that was to indicate where evidence might be found.

That Mr Amaral needed something to  verify his theory led to his over eagerness to misinterpret that may just be understandable.

What is the excuse of those who perpetuate the myth in the face of reason and expert professional opinion from all disciplines; Mr Amaral may have had a slight one ... what's yours?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 01:04:50 PM
a comment on amarals gofundme page...

The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts]. 7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]." So the Portuguese police were right,....

Can anyone deny lies are being spread...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2015, 01:19:33 PM
a comment on amarals gofundme page...

The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts]. 7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]." So the Portuguese police were right,....

Can anyone deny lies are being spread...

Please tell me what Keela detected?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 13, 2015, 01:24:11 PM
a comment on amarals gofundme page...

The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts]. 7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]." So the Portuguese police were right,....

Can anyone deny lies are being spread...

I think that the polite formulation might be the "misinterpretation" of the "misinterpretation" of an interpretation of reactions for undetermined reasons, with cautions as to their possible interpretation.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 01:25:54 PM
Perhaps these are the people the administrators of Amaral's fund will take most note of in choosing their grounds of appeal?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 01:47:48 PM
Please tell me what Keela detected?
blood and cadaver according to the comment Davel has copied above.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 13, 2015, 02:33:00 PM
blood and cadaver according to the comment Davel has copied above.

I was asking davel though.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 02:34:29 PM
I was asking davel though.
I know you were.  Davel's point was that the comment was inaccurate.  I have I believe highlighted one of the inaccuracies.  Would you agree?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 13, 2015, 04:27:05 PM
Perhaps these are the people the administrators of Amaral's fund will take most note of in choosing their grounds of appeal?

The administrators of the fund for Gonçalo Amaral are not appealing the ruling, Gonçalo Amaral along with his lawyers will be doing that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 05:08:27 PM

What might Eddie have alerted to; there is quite a choice.

Putrefaction of animal tissue produces cadaverine ~ it is present in urine and semen.

Cadaverine is related to putrescine both of which are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms.
Cadaverine and putrescine are toxic in large doses.

Both cadaverine and putrecine are found in some microalgae found in fresh water and sea water.

It would appear that despite the coast of Portugal being on the Atlantic, Praia da Luz is not immune to the invasion of algae which is unsurprising when one considers the preponderance of green lichen on window cills.

For certain Eddie's nose would twitch if someone had discarding wet clothing, flip flops,towels which had been in contact with micralgae which had leached into grouting in the corner of a room.


Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:08 pm
I popped over to PdL this afternoon and found that there was a notice by the beach banning swimming in the sea with a reference to a Water Quality directive. 

I was wondering if anybody knew any details.


Re: Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:34 am
Has it got something to do with this algae thats been found in the sea which is supposedly a danger to people, I read about it somewhere, maybe paper or forums.
Just found the link to it
 algarvedailynews.com/n...rous-algae

http://www.expatfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31721/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 05:21:26 PM
The administrators of the fund for Gonçalo Amaral are not appealing the ruling, Gonçalo Amaral along with his lawyers will be doing that.

Lawyers?

He has more than one.

Is one the lawyer who represented him in proceedings just completed?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 13, 2015, 05:40:13 PM
What might Eddie have alerted to; there is quite a choice.

Putrefaction of animal tissue produces cadaverine ~ it is present in urine and semen.

Cadaverine is related to putrescine both of which are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms.
Cadaverine and putrescine are toxic in large doses.

Both cadaverine and putrecine are found in some microalgae found in fresh water and sea water.

It would appear that despite the coast of Portugal being on the Atlantic, Praia da Luz is not immune to the invasion of algae which is unsurprising when one considers the preponderance of green lichen on window cills.

For certain Eddie's nose would twitch if someone had discarding wet clothing, flip flops,towels which had been in contact with micralgae which had leached into grouting in the corner of a room.


Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:08 pm
I popped over to PdL this afternoon and found that there was a notice by the beach banning swimming in the sea with a reference to a Water Quality directive.

I was wondering if anybody knew any details.


Re: Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:34 am
Has it got something to do with this algae thats been found in the sea which is supposedly a danger to people, I read about it somewhere, maybe paper or forums.
Just found the link to it
algarvedailynews.com/n...rous-algae

http://www.expatfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31721/

Do you have evidence that such algal blooms occurred in early May 2007? Or is it mere speculation on your part?
I love the quote "I read about it somewhere maybe the paper or forums". That is a stunner.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 05:48:25 PM
Interesting piece from an expert:-


Sept. 18 2007 6:11 PM

Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?


The parents of Madeleine McCann, the 4-year-old British girl who went missing in Portugal in May, were officially named suspects http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20637334/#.VVFW1pVFDIU
on Sept. 7 by Portuguese police. The change came after developments in the case, including sniffer dogs detecting the "smell of death" on Madeleine's Cuddle Cat toy and her mother's clothes. They did not, however, find a body.

 Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?

Torie Bosch is the editor of Future Tense, a project of Slate, the New America Foundation, and Arizona State that looks at the implications of new technologies. ……………………………….......................................................................
 

Not really—especially if a lot of time has elapsed since the body was removed from the scene. Cadaver dogs can find the remains of people who have been dead for years or even decades. But it's much harder for the dogs if the bulk of the remains are gone. In that case, they can pick up the scent from small amounts of body tissue, like a blood stain or nail clippings, or even from materials that came into contact with the tissue. But in the absence of an actual body, the smell of death will dissipate. There's speculation that Madeleine died on the night her parents reported her disappearance—which would mean that she passed away four months ago. It's not clear if a detectable scent could linger on her mother's clothes for all that time.

Researchers are trying to determine how long the scent lingers when the body is no longer present, but there are no conclusive results yet—it may be two weeks, or it may be longer. One former Scotland Yard dog handler talking about the McCann case hypothesized that the scent wouldn't last more than a month.

The dogs couldn't necessarily prove anything even if Madeleine's body had been in recent contact with her mother's clothes. Since they didn't turn up any actual remains, investigators had to rely on the "smell of death" itself, an odor that stems from the decomposition process. Without a body, they can't be certain that the animals didn't make a mistake. Cadaver dogs do mess up from time to time: The McCanns have sought out attorneys who convinced a judge in Wisconsin that certain dogs were accurate just 22 percent to 38 percent of the time. (The prosecution claimed a success rate of 60 percent to 69 percent.)

Cadaver dogs learn to spot the "smell of death" and find its source during the training process, which involves exposing them to either actual human remains—blood, teeth, bones—or pseudoscent, an artificial substance that re-creates the death odor. (One chemical company markets several pseudoscent formulas for training cadaver dogs—recently dead, post-decomposition, and drowning victim.) The dogs also learn to differentiate human remains from animal remains.

A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.
………………………………..........................................................

Got a question about today's news? Ask the Explainer.

Explainer thanks Maria Claxton of the South Carolina Search and Rescue Dog Association, Larry Myers of the Auburn University College of Veterinary Medicine, and Andrew Rebmann of K9 Specialty Search Associates.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/09/scent_of_a_dead_woman.html

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 06:13:49 PM
Thanks Anna - and we have Amaral concluding in his Book of Lies:

5. The body, the existence  of which has been confirmed by the EVRD and CSI dogs but also by the results of the preliminary laboratory analyses, cannot be found.

The only part of the above statement that resembles reality is "The body...cannot be found".  The rest is mendacious hogwash.  And yet we have members of this forum who think this book is so wonderfully factual that it must be disseminated far and wide, the same people who complain bitterly about the accuracy of the Summers and Swan book!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 06:23:26 PM
Do you have evidence that such algal blooms occurred in early May 2007? Or is it mere speculation on your part?
I love the quote "I read about it somewhere maybe the paper or forums". That is a stunner.

There is no evidence to the contrary ... just as there is no evidence of semen or urine contamination ... then if you don't look for something you won't find it, which probably could well be applied to Madeleine McCann.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 13, 2015, 06:40:33 PM
There is no evidence to the contrary ... just as there is no evidence of semen or urine contamination ... then if you don't look for something you won't find it, which probably could well be applied to Madeleine McCann.
I was only asking about the algal bloom. So you postulation is it must be there if there no evidence to suggest  it isn't there.
But blooms that are large enough to cause problems can be seen. So by extension if you can't see it it must be there.
I think I understand that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 13, 2015, 06:48:08 PM
Interesting piece from an expert:-


Sept. 18 2007 6:11 PM

Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?


The parents of Madeleine McCann, the 4-year-old British girl who went missing in Portugal in May, were officially named suspects http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20637334/#.VVFW1pVFDIU
on Sept. 7 by Portuguese police. The change came after developments in the case, including sniffer dogs detecting the "smell of death" on Madeleine's Cuddle Cat toy and her mother's clothes. They did not, however, find a body.

 Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?

Torie Bosch is the editor of Future Tense, a project of Slate, the New America Foundation, and Arizona State that looks at the implications of new technologies. ……………………………….......................................................................
 

Not really—especially if a lot of time has elapsed since the body was removed from the scene. Cadaver dogs can find the remains of people who have been dead for years or even decades. But it's much harder for the dogs if the bulk of the remains are gone. In that case, they can pick up the scent from small amounts of body tissue, like a blood stain or nail clippings, or even from materials that came into contact with the tissue. But in the absence of an actual body, the smell of death will dissipate. There's speculation that Madeleine died on the night her parents reported her disappearance—which would mean that she passed away four months ago. It's not clear if a detectable scent could linger on her mother's clothes for all that time.

Researchers are trying to determine how long the scent lingers when the body is no longer present, but there are no conclusive results yet—it may be two weeks, or it may be longer. One former Scotland Yard dog handler talking about the McCann case hypothesized that the scent wouldn't last more than a month.

The dogs couldn't necessarily prove anything even if Madeleine's body had been in recent contact with her mother's clothes. Since they didn't turn up any actual remains, investigators had to rely on the "smell of death" itself, an odor that stems from the decomposition process. Without a body, they can't be certain that the animals didn't make a mistake. Cadaver dogs do mess up from time to time: The McCanns have sought out attorneys who convinced a judge in Wisconsin that certain dogs were accurate just 22 percent to 38 percent of the time. (The prosecution claimed a success rate of 60 percent to 69 percent.)

Cadaver dogs learn to spot the "smell of death" and find its source during the training process, which involves exposing them to either actual human remains—blood, teeth, bones—or pseudoscent, an artificial substance that re-creates the death odor. (One chemical company markets several pseudoscent formulas for training cadaver dogs—recently dead, post-decomposition, and drowning victim.) The dogs also learn to differentiate human remains from animal remains.

A dog's utility depends on the skill of its handler. Identifying false signals is an important part of working with a cadaver dog, and results should be backed up with forensic testing. When a dog gives a signal, such as barking or sitting down, to indicate that it has smelled a corpse, a handler can only say something along the lines of, "My dog is giving an indication consistent with human blood." He can't say definitively that, yes, a body was present, without further confirmation—in the form of a blood stain, for example.
………………………………..........................................................

Got a question about today's news? Ask the Explainer.

Explainer thanks Maria Claxton of the South Carolina Search and Rescue Dog Association, Larry Myers of the Auburn University College of Veterinary Medicine, and Andrew Rebmann of K9 Specialty Search Associates.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2007/09/scent_of_a_dead_woman.html

It is interesting they quote Andy Rebmann as a source. He is an acknowledged expert along with Dr Deb Komar who worked with RCMP and Matthew Zarella who worked with the US Military in 2002 locating MIA's in Vietnam.
http://cadaverdog.com/Associates.html
[cf Rebmann & Zarella]
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:02:02 PM
What might Eddie have alerted to; there is quite a choice.

Putrefaction of animal tissue produces cadaverine ~ it is present in urine and semen.

Cadaverine is related to putrescine both of which are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms.
Cadaverine and putrescine are toxic in large doses.

Both cadaverine and putrecine are found in some microalgae found in fresh water and sea water.

It would appear that despite the coast of Portugal being on the Atlantic, Praia da Luz is not immune to the invasion of algae which is unsurprising when one considers the preponderance of green lichen on window cills.

For certain Eddie's nose would twitch if someone had discarding wet clothing, flip flops,towels which had been in contact with micralgae which had leached into grouting in the corner of a room.


Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:08 pm
I popped over to PdL this afternoon and found that there was a notice by the beach banning swimming in the sea with a reference to a Water Quality directive.

I was wondering if anybody knew any details.


Re: Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:34 am
Has it got something to do with this algae thats been found in the sea which is supposedly a danger to people, I read about it somewhere, maybe paper or forums.
Just found the link to it
algarvedailynews.com/n...rous-algae

http://www.expatfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31721/

Don't you find it a bad coincidence (at the very least) that urine,semen or algae infected flip flops (now that's a first) were left in the only residence out of many inspected,  the one where a child went missing from?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 07:14:38 PM
Do you not find it also to be a coincidence, Mercury, that No blood traces (old or new) were found anywhere else either.
In all the years that this holiday complex has stood there...............No-one bled in that block except for 5A, where we know that several holiday makers bled?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 07:16:16 PM
It is interesting they quote Andy Rebmann as a source. He is an acknowledged expert along with Dr Deb Komar who worked with RCMP and Matthew Zarella who worked with the US Military in 2002 locating MIA's in Vietnam.
http://cadaverdog.com/Associates.html
[cf Rebmann & Zarella]

Thank you Alice, I will have a read of that, when I have more time.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:28:13 PM
Do you not find it also to be a coincidence, Mercury, that No blood traces (old or new) were found anywhere else either.
In all the years that this holiday complex has stood there...............No-one bled in that block except for 5A, where we know that several holiday makers bled?
No one can say that no one ever bled in any apartments ever since the hoiday complex was there. Blood can be cleaned away entirely.

The reason no blood was detected (if remnants were there) in the inspected apartments is because the blood dog was not sent in.

P.S. Who are the "several" holidaymakers who bled in 5A? And was their DNA matched to the samples collected? From the area the blood dog had signalled to?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 07:35:04 PM
No one can say that no one ever bled in any apartments ever since the hoiday complex was there. Blood can be cleaned away entirely.

The reason no blood was detected (even if remnants were there) in the inspected apartments is because the blood dog was not sent in.

P.S. Who are the "several" holidaymakers who bled in 5A? And was their DNA matched to the samples collected? From the area the blood dog had signalled to?

Eddie alerts to blood and apparently no amount of cleaning will remove the scent.

There is a thread that lists all the holidaymakers who bled in 5A. I will have a look and post a link.
I believe the DNA was checked ,but the samples taken from 5a were too small, coming from several people or inconclusive.
One DNA check from 5A was a semen stain on a bedcover, which turned out to belong to a 2 year old child(saliva)


ETA link
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3582.msg136981;topicseen#msg136981
You will have to wade through the posts I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:41:08 PM
Eddie alerts to blood and apparently no amount of cleaning will remove the scent.

There is a thread that lists all the holidaymakers who bled in 5A. I will have a look and post a link.
I believe the DNA was checked ,but the samples taken from 5a were too small, coming from several people or inconclusive.
One DNA check from 5A was a semen stain on a bedcover, which turned out to belong to a 2 year old child(saliva)

Sorry, but what is the point of using Keela then?

Thanks, look forward to reading said thread.

Not sure what point you are making regarding saliva stains.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 07:46:43 PM
Sorry, but what is the point of using Keela then?

Thanks, look forward to reading said thread.

Not sure what point you are making regarding saliva stains.

Keela only detects blood, therefore she is used for backup of Eddies alerts. If she alerts to the area that Eddie alerted to, then it must be blood.

Why I mentioned the saliva? probably just to show that the other holiday makers were checked for DNA and That was the only match.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 13, 2015, 07:47:00 PM
Don't you find it a bad coincidence (at the very least) that urine,semen or algae infected flip flops (now that's a first) were left in the only residence out of many inspected,  the one where a child went missing from?
Being surrounded by a lakeful of algae had no effect on this dog -
Working from a boat on a lake, cadaver dog Duke accurately located a body 15 feet underwater.
http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2014/07/31/rescuers-searching-drowning-victim-lake-julian/13430441/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:56:04 PM
Keela only detects blood, therefore she is used for backup of Eddies alerts. If she alerts to the area that Eddie alerted to, then it must be blood.

Why I mentioned the saliva? probably just to show that the other holiday makers were checked for DNA and That was the only match.

Well Keela wasn't used as back up in any of the other apartments or villas inspected, as Eddie didn't alert at all, for either blood or cadaver scent.

Ok, thanks for explaining vis a vis saliva. IIRC police screened bedclothing, found a substance, and checked for DNA matches. That is nothing to do with "several" people who alledgedly bled in the apartment, leading the dogs to alert. I have read the FSS Lowe report, there is no reference in it to any previous holidaymakers, their blood, or DNA. (Except for the child whose saliva was DNA matched)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 07:59:14 PM
Being surrounded by a lakeful of algae had no effect on this dog -
Working from a boat on a lake, cadaver dog Duke accurately located a body 15 feet underwater.
http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2014/07/31/rescuers-searching-drowning-victim-lake-julian/13430441/

I am sure there must be an explanation for that anomaly

 ?>)()<

Thanks Pegasus.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 07:59:25 PM
Well Keela wasn't used as back up in any of the other apartments or villas inspected, as Eddie didn't alert at all, for either blood or cadaver scent.

Ok, thanks for explaining vis a vis saliva. IIRC police screened bedclothing, found a substance, and checked for DNA matches. That is nothing to do with "several" people who alledgedly bled in the apartment, leading the dogs to alert. I have read the FSS Lowe report, there is no reference in it to any previous holidaymakers, their blood, or DNA. (Except for the child whose saliva was DNA matched)
Exactly, so back to the original question - don't you find it odd that there were no traces of blood anywhere at all except on McCann-related property?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 08:02:30 PM
Well Keela wasn't used as back up in any of the other apartments or villas inspected, as Eddie didn't alert at all, for either blood or cadaver scent.

Ok, thanks for explaining vis a vis saliva. IIRC police screened bedclothing, found a substance, and checked for DNA matches. That is nothing to do with "several" people who alledgedly bled in the apartment, leading the dogs to alert. I have read the FSS Lowe report, there is no reference in it to any previous holidaymakers, their blood, or DNA. (Except for the child whose saliva was DNA matched)


You are welcome, mercury,
The blood found in 5A, was inconclusive as there was very small amount or it was from multiple unidentified
persons. If there was no match it would not have been recorded. Dna swabs were taken from many people.

The link, but you will have to wade through to find them.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3582.msg136981#msg136981
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 08:10:02 PM
Exactly, so back to the original question - don't you find it odd that there were no traces of blood anywhere at all except on McCann-related property?

No, the main reason being I do not believe that Eddie is capable of screening a room for microscopic remnants of blood, that is not what he was trained to do. Keela was.

So there is every possibility that there were traces of blood in other places apart from flat 5A. That is not what the dogs were brought in for
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:12:15 PM
No, the main reason being I do not believe that Eddie is capable of screening a room for microscopic remnants of blood, that is not what he was trained to do. Keela was.

So there is every possibility that there were traces of blood in other places apart from flat 5A. That is not what the dogs were brought in for
Except, he obviously does alert to microscopic traces of blood as verified by Keela!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 08:12:31 PM

You are welcome, mercury,
The blood found in 5A, was inconclusive as there was very small amount or it was from multiple unidentified
persons. If there was no match it would not have been recorded. Dna swabs were taken from many people.

The link, but you will have to wade through to find them.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3582.msg136981#msg136981

Ok, no worries. I thought you were suggesting that all the previous several holidaymakers who bled in 5A had their dna taken. And thank you for the link, will have a gander.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 08:13:45 PM
Except, he obviously does alert to microscopic traces of blood as verified by Keela!

Err, I don't think you can assert that, or even infer it
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 08:14:27 PM
No, the main reason being I do not believe that Eddie is capable of screening a room for microscopic remnants of blood, that is not what he was trained to do. Keela was.

So there is every possibility that there were traces of blood in other places apart from flat 5A. That is not what the dogs were brought in for

Eddie was trained as a forensic blood detecting dog. He was later trained as a cadaver dog, but they could not un-train him to detect blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 13, 2015, 08:19:05 PM
Eddie was trained as a forensic blood detecting dog. He was later trained as a cadaver dog, but they could not un-train him to detect blood.

Was he? That's news to me. You got a reference for that Anna? If he was trained as Keela was, I ask again, why the need for that dog? Mr Grime has told us what Eddie was trained to do, and it wasn't to be a forensic blood dog. But you may correct me.

I have to go for a short while but will respond later.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 08:22:40 PM
I was only asking about the algal bloom. So you postulation is it must be there if there no evidence to suggest  it isn't there.
But blooms that are large enough to cause problems can be seen. So by extension if you can't see it it must be there.
I think I understand that.

I did not say "must be there"?  I rather think that is what you said I said.

I have given examples of things which may have caused Eddie's sensitive nose to pick up scents to which his training had taught him to react.

Mr Amaral had not thought through all the possibilities, preferring instead to latch on to the one which best suited his theory and would lead, not to finding a missing child, but to the prosecution of her parents.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 08:24:11 PM
Eddie was trained as a forensic blood detecting dog. He was later trained as a cadaver dog, but they could not un-train him to detect blood.

I'm not sure about that, Anna.  I think it is the case with most cadaver dogs that they will detect blood as well, by default, because blood is a constituent part of any corpse.
 
I think the difference between Eddie and Morse is that Morse was desensitised to blood, and the idea of the Keela and Morse combination was that you had one dog to detect blood and another to detect cadaver odour. 

Remember that a reaction from Morse under the US forensic canine programme was accepted as stand-alone evidence of murder (not applicable with most cadaver dogs).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:29:01 PM
Err, I don't think you can assert that, or even infer it
So if Eddie alerts and Keela alerts at the same place what conclusion can we draw, if any?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 08:31:14 PM
So if Eddie alerts and Keela alerts at the same place what conclusion can we draw, if any?

Should equal blood but no cadaver scent.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 08:37:44 PM
Do you not find it also to be a coincidence, Mercury, that No blood traces (old or new) were found anywhere else either.
In all the years that this holiday complex has stood there...............No-one bled in that block except for 5A, where we know that several holiday makers bled?

Do you know that Keela didn't go in to the other apartments? You don't understand that the dogs work as a TEAM going from your post. Eddie and Keela don't go in to sniff every inch of the apartments looking for blood traces. Eddie goes in first to detect cadaver scent in a missing person case. Their job is to investigate if death occurred at the crime scene. If Eddie alerts then Keela is sent in to investigate that alerted area (not the whole apartment!) to find any traces of blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 08:37:54 PM
Being surrounded by a lakeful of algae had no effect on this dog -
Working from a boat on a lake, cadaver dog Duke accurately located a body 15 feet underwater.
http://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2014/07/31/rescuers-searching-drowning-victim-lake-julian/13430441/

Don't see any mention of algae in that link, pegasus, it does mention a "swirling current" which would have dispersed any blooms I would imagine.
I also doubt if a dog handler would have exposed his animal to anything as toxic.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 13, 2015, 08:41:49 PM
"The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes"
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
So the hypothesis in the VeM book which has PMI of only 45 mins must be incorrect IMO
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 08:45:05 PM
Do you know why Keela didn't go in to the other apartments? You don't understand that the dogs work as a TEAM going from your post. Eddie and Keela don't go in to sniff every inch of the apartments looking for blood traces. Eddie goes in first to detect cadaver scent in a missing person case. Their job is to investigate if death occurred at the crime scene. If Eddie alerts then Keela is sent in to investigate that alerted area (not the whole apartment!) to find any traces of blood.
Why did Eddie alert to a sex tissue then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 13, 2015, 08:47:30 PM
I can't quite fathom why anyone (here) would profess to know better than Mark Harrison ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 08:51:03 PM
Eddy was trained initially as a Victim Recovery Dog.  VRD.  They are trained to scent blood from live people.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 08:53:08 PM
Why did Eddie alert to a sex tissue then?

Cite. Eddie alerts to blood.

"'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain."
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 08:56:39 PM
Do you know why Keela didn't go in to the other apartments? You don't understand that the dogs work as a TEAM going from your post. Eddie and Keela don't go in to sniff every inch of the apartments looking for blood traces. Eddie goes in first to detect cadaver scent in a missing person case. Their job is to investigate if death occurred at the crime scene. If Eddie alerts then Keela is sent in to investigate that alerted area (not the whole apartment!) to find any traces of blood.

Not so  IMO.      Eddie goes in first and if he alerts -  Grime doesn't know whether he alerted to cadaverscent or blood from a dead or living person - because he alerts to both.      He then sends Keela in.  If she alerts at the same place then it is a blood detection because she only alerts to blood - although it still isn't known whether it is blood from a dead or living person,     If she doesn't alert at all at the same place then it's suggestive of cadaverscent.   

If there is no alert at all  from Eddie then Grime didn't need to send Keela in because if there was any blood present  - Eddie would have alerted to it.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 09:01:03 PM
I'm not sure about that, Anna.  I think it is the case with most cadaver dogs that they will detect blood as well, by default, because blood is a constituent part of any corpse.
 
I think the difference between Eddie and Morse is that Morse was desensitised to blood, and the idea of the Keela and Morse combination was that you had one dog to detect blood and another to detect cadaver odour. 

Remember that a reaction from Morse under the US forensic canine programme was accepted as stand-alone evidence of murder (not applicable with most cadaver dogs).


Maybe I misunderstood then, but he was trained on human blood and piglet corpses.
I will check and see where I read that Eddie was a blood dog......If I can find it.

What case was Morse used in, that came to a prosecution, because of him, Ferryman?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 09:08:05 PM
Eddy was trained initially as a Victim Recovery Dog.  VDR.  They are trained to scent blood from live people.

Can you name a missing person who has turned up alive after Eddie alerted to cadaver scent?

the E.V.R.D. alerted in the front bedroom of the offenders empty next door dwelling house. When interviewed the suspect admitted that the body had lain in the room for 1 hour prior to disposal. Forensic teams were unable to extract any forensic evidence despite being shown the exact position.

The EVRD then located the body deposition site in an area of a garbage base that had been prepared by the suspect. He had returned with the dead girl, dug a grave in the centre, placed the body in the hole, replaced the spoil and then
used the shovel, wacker plate and spirit level to return the ground to its original state.

An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass. The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.

A search of the suspects house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet.
No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the
suspect was alert indicated by the dog
. The diary had written extracts that the
offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact
been written by the suspect having handled the body
. This was confirmed by
the offender in interview.

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.
Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.
He said: “His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.”
The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.
The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

Police's two 'body dogs' started out as an unwanted pet and a stray destined for the dogs' home.
Their first deployment was to investigate the murder of Barnsley man Shane Collier, but only Frankie proved suitable, and the other dog had to be retired early.
That was when they began to train up springer spaniel Eddie instead, a dog whose owner was finding him simply "unmanageable".
The four-strong team has never looked back and their first successful – though upsetting – find was Mr Collier's body.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 09:12:50 PM

It wasn't possible to teach Eddie to stop alerting to blood.  Victim Recovery Dogs alert to Blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 09:13:14 PM
Cite. Eddie alerts to blood.

"'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain."
Yes!!!  So why was there no minute traces of blood anywhere apart from on McCann-related property?  Jeez, it's like pulling teeth...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 09:15:28 PM
Yes!!!  So why was there no minute traces of blood anywhere apart from on McCann-related property?  Jeez, it's like pulling teeth...

Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 13, 2015, 09:17:33 PM
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. Doh!

Eddie was operating within the parameters of his training.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 09:25:50 PM
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.
Are you telling me that in Jersey he was tasked with looking for blood?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 09:26:42 PM
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.

Eddie might not have been sent in to find blood, but he did have the capabilities to detect blood, so it would be necessary to have Keela check his findings, if he had alerted in any other place.
However He never alerted to blood anywhere except 5A. We know this because keela was not used to check out any alerts. So why, no blood anywhere, but 5A?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 09:28:07 PM
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.

How did Eddie know what he was supposed to be looking for?  Did Grime tell him it was a Missing Person Case?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 09:29:40 PM
How did Eddie know what he was supposed to be looking for?  Did Grime tell him it was a Missing Person Case?
Grime must have used a special "cadaver only" cue...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 09:31:10 PM
How did Eddie know what he was supposed to be looking for?  Did Grime tell him it was a Missing Person Case?


 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 09:31:56 PM
Eddie might not have been sent in to find blood, but he did have the capabilities to detect blood, so it would be necessary to have Keela check his findings, if he had alerted in any other place.
However He never alerted to blood anywhere except 5A. We know this because keela was not used to check out any alerts. So why, no blood anywhere, but 5A?

No blood was found at Eddie's first alert in 5A. Keela didn't go in to the other apartment to check for traces of blood that the human eye can't see. Keela only looks for microscopic blood traces if Eddie alerts. Eddie didn't alert in the other apartments. Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent not sniffing every inch of the floor for blood traces humans can't even see.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 09:35:05 PM
Grime must have used a special "cadaver only" cue...

That's it Mate, don't you come back and tell me it was blood.  That's just for Disasters and Earthquakes.  Okay?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 09:39:30 PM
No blood was found at Eddie's first alert in 5A. Keela didn't go in to the other apartment to check for traces of blood that the human eye can't see. Keela only looks for microscopic blood traces if Eddie alerts. Eddie didn't alert in the other apartments. Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent not sniffing every inch of the floor for blood traces humans can't even see.

Eddie did alert to blood in 5A which was confirmed by Keela, IIRC. However the samples taken from the floor tiles was too minute or was inconclusive in forensic results.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 09:50:22 PM
Eddie wasn't looking for traces of blood. That's Keela's job after Eddie detects cadaver scent in a missing person case. See some examples above.

You seem to be saying that if Eddie detected the odour of blood - he would not alert.   That's simply not true PF.

Eddie searched for the odours he was trained to alert to.     If he detected any of those odours he alerted.       He had no ability to understand the difference between blood, bone tissue, teeth -  or even whether any dried blood he alerted to was from a dead or living person.    He was a clever dog - but he wasn't THAT clever.   All he knew is that he had detected an odour which he had been trained to alert to and so he barked,

From Grimes' Rogatory Statement

Quote
'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver' ?

The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants.    The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver.     He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 09:52:18 PM
Eddie did alert to blood in 5A which was confirmed by Keela, IIRC. However the samples taken from the floor tiles was too minute or was inconclusive in forensic results.

This is a missing person case. Eddie first alert suggested cadaver scent so the second alert could be the same again. If microscopic blood is found by Keela then police would think that is where death probably occurred. They work as a team to find evidence of death not to look for blood traces in every apartment.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 10:00:16 PM
This is a missing person case. Eddie first alert suggested cadaver scent so the second alert could be the same again. If microscopic blood is found by Keela then police would think that is where death probably occurred. They work as a team to find evidence of death not to look for blood traces in every apartment.

In my experience there are quite often large puddles of blood even if someone is dead.  Rarely are there microscopic particles unseen by the human eye.  Although every little helps, I suppose.

And when Eddie was a Victim Recovery Dog they hoped he would find live people as well as dead ones.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 10:01:44 PM
This is a missing person case. Eddie first alert suggested cadaver scent so the second alert could be the same again. If microscopic blood is found by Keela then police would think that is where death probably occurred. They work as a team to find evidence of death not to look for blood traces in every apartment.

Why would someone assume that a death had occurred, because of Microscopic traces of blood?

Yep they worked as a team to find evidence of a death and not to look for evidence of blood in every apartment.
 So Eddie was pre-warned then, not to look for blood?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 10:02:08 PM
This is a missing person case. Eddie first alert suggested cadaver scent so the second alert could be the same again. If microscopic blood is found by Keela then police would think that is where death probably occurred. They work as a team to find evidence of death not to look for blood traces in every apartment.
I find hard to believe after all this time and millions of words of discussion there are still people who don't understand how the dogs worked.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 13, 2015, 10:04:32 PM
This is a missing person case. Eddie first alert suggested cadaver scent so the second alert could be the same again. If microscopic blood is found by Keela then police would think that is where death probably occurred. They work as a team to find evidence of death not to look for blood traces in every apartment.

So you think that when Grime sent Eddie in he said to him ''Ignore any blood odour and just alert to cadaverscent.?

You cannot be serious.

Why do you think Grime didn't send Keela into a place if Eddie had made no alerts there?


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 10:14:31 PM
In my experience there are quite often large puddles of blood even if someone is dead.  Rarely are there microscopic particles unseen by the human eye.  Although every little helps, I suppose.

And when Eddie was a Victim Recovery Dog they hoped he would find live people as well as dead ones.

If you were covering it up you would wash away any blood but some slipped in between the tiles where Keela alerted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 13, 2015, 10:20:24 PM
What might Eddie have alerted to; there is quite a choice.

Putrefaction of animal tissue produces cadaverine ~ it is present in urine and semen.

Cadaverine is related to putrescine both of which are produced by the breakdown of amino acids in living and dead organisms.
Cadaverine and putrescine are toxic in large doses.

Both cadaverine and putrecine are found in some microalgae found in fresh water and sea water.

It would appear that despite the coast of Portugal being on the Atlantic, Praia da Luz is not immune to the invasion of algae which is unsurprising when one considers the preponderance of green lichen on window cills.

For certain Eddie's nose would twitch if someone had discarding wet clothing, flip flops,towels which had been in contact with micralgae which had leached into grouting in the corner of a room.


Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:08 pm
I popped over to PdL this afternoon and found that there was a notice by the beach banning swimming in the sea with a reference to a Water Quality directive.

I was wondering if anybody knew any details.


Re: Sea bathing banned at Praia da Luz
 Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:34 am
Has it got something to do with this algae thats been found in the sea which is supposedly a danger to people, I read about it somewhere, maybe paper or forums.
Just found the link to it
algarvedailynews.com/n...rous-algae

http://www.expatfocus.com/Forums/viewtopic/t=31721/

Lichen on widow-sills is a myth debunked in the myths debunked section.

Algae in the water, seemingly hitting Luz but not nearby, that is very interesting but not on topic, so I shall say no more.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 10:20:39 PM
I find hard to believe after all this time and millions of words of discussion there are still people who don't understand how the dogs worked.

You don't understand that they work as a TEAM to find evidence of death.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 10:24:37 PM
You don't understand how they work as a TEAM.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

That's right suggestive...not confirmed...he goes on to say there are several reasons for the alert...that's the expert...

amaral says the alerts confrm Maddie died in the apartment..he's telling lies
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 10:26:26 PM
There was a sample of blood around the tile area that came from a Portuguese named person.  Probably shed when lifting the tiles.  Sorry, can't remember his name.
I cut myself on a chipped piece of tile last year and bled like a stuck pig for over half an hour.

The blood under the tiles almost certainly came from the original Tile Layer., which is what both Keela and Eddie alerted to.
It didn't have to have come from a dead person.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 10:29:55 PM
You don't understand that they work as a TEAM to find evidence of death.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

The dogs did not work as a Team.  They wouldn't have known the meaning of the word.

Eddie was simply flawed as a Cadaver Dog because he had been trained to detect blood long before he was introduced to dead piglets.
Martin Grime knew this.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 10:30:40 PM
You don't understand that they work as a TEAM to find evidence of death.

"My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
I understand perfectly thanks, however you seem to be of the opinion that Grime can tell his dog when to alert to blood and when not to.  Did Grime ask Eddie to alert to blood in Jersey?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 10:39:35 PM
That's right suggestive...not confirmed...he goes on to say there are several reasons for the alert...that's the expert...

amaral says the alerts confrm Maddie died in the apartment..he's telling lies

The police confirms the source. Eddie finds dead bodies which is proof or detects cadaver scent which suggests a dead body without proof.  The police have to prove the source of it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 10:49:33 PM
The police confirms the source. Eddie finds dead bodies which is proof or detects cadaver scent which suggests a dead body without proof.  The police have to prove the source of it.

have you ever heard of cross contamination as described by Grime
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 13, 2015, 10:54:19 PM
Lichen on widow-sills is a myth debunked in the myths debunked section.

Algae in the water, seemingly hitting Luz but not nearby, that is very interesting but not on topic, so I shall say no more.


Thank you Shining. You are absolutely correct....We do appear to be slipping Off Topic here.

However it is essential to drag up all the previous dog alert issues to re-established the importance of the dog alert indications, compared to the case as made by Mr Amaral regarding the reliability of the dog's alerts.

Once done(if ever) we can all get back to.......................The Topic.

 
"Amaral and the dogs"
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 10:56:25 PM

Thank you Shining. You are absolutely correct....We do appear to be slipping Off Topic here.

However it is essential to drag up all the previous dog alert issues to re-established the importance of the dog alert indications, compared to the case as made by Mr Amaral regarding the reliability of the dog's alerts.

Once done(if ever) we can all get back to.......................The Topic.

 
"Amaral and the dogs"
Amaral's understanding of the dogs' alerts is about as comprehensive as Pathfinder's, unfortunately,
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 10:57:09 PM
The police confirms the source. Eddie finds dead bodies which is proof or detects cadaver scent which suggests a dead body without proof.  The police have to prove the source of it.

As the police have told us Maddie may still be alive they have told us the source is not Maddie
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 11:00:18 PM
I understand perfectly thanks, however you seem to be of the opinion that Grime can tell his dog when to alert to blood and when not to.  Did Grime ask Eddie to alert to blood in Jersey?

Eddie will alert to blood if he's doing a close inspection search of a vehicle for example. Keela did that inside the hire car. Eddie was put inside the burned out car in the Harron case and found the DNA match that put her killer away. He also found the body.

The search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample
was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 11:03:15 PM
Eddie will alert to blood if he's doing a close inspection search of a vehicle for example. Keela did that inside the hire car. Eddie was put inside the burned out car in the Harron case and found the DNA match that put her killer away. He also found the body.

The search of suspects 'burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence. A search by the E.V.R.D. identified a position in the rear passenger foot well where the dog alerted to the presence of human material. A sample
was taken and when analysed revealed the victims' DNA.
Thanks for not answering my question directly.  Here's another question for you to avoid answering: when will Eddie NOT alert to traces of blood?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 11:05:20 PM
As the police have told us Maddie may still be alive they have told us the source is not Maddie

Yes that's because she hasn't been found but they were searching for her body last year.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 11:08:52 PM
Thanks for not answering my question directly.  Here's another question for you to avoid answering: when will Eddie NOT alert to traces of blood?

Eddie will alert to blood but Keela only found blood in two places. Eddie alerted many times.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 11:12:37 PM
Yes that's because she hasn't been found but they were searching for her body last year.

it means that they don't accept the alerts prove she died in the apartment
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 13, 2015, 11:15:16 PM
Eddie will alert to blood but Keela only found blood in two places. Eddie alerted many times.
And round in circles we go. 
Eddie will alert to blood - check. 
Eddie alerted to minute traces of blood on tissue - check. 
Eddie did not alert to blood in any place or to any property not McCann related - check. 
So, if Eddie alerts to minute traces of blood (as confimed by Keela) but did not alert to any place or any property not McCann related it is safe to assume that no blood was ever spilt in any other location apart from that pertaining to the McCanns, right?
Question - is that a realistic assumption?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 11:15:24 PM
it means that they don't accept the alerts prove she died in the apartment

How do you figure that one when the prime suspect was carrying her away in a deep sleep. If she woke and wandered she wouldn't be in a deep sleep. The Smiths believe it was Madeleine and the police were searching close to that sighting.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 11:17:55 PM
Eddie will alert to blood but Keela only found blood in two places. Eddie alerted many times.

Eddie alerted to other body fluids apart from blood.  Otherwise how and why did he alert to a semen soaked tissue?
And if that's not a bodily fluid from a live body then I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 13, 2015, 11:19:34 PM
Eddie alerted to other body fluids apart from blood.  Otherwise how and why did he alert to a semen soaked tissue?
And if that's not a bodily fluid from a live body then I don't know what is.

Yeah the sex tissue had blood on it. Eddie alerts to blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 13, 2015, 11:24:53 PM
Yeah the sex tissue had blood on it. Eddie alerts to blood.

you are a classic example of how people have been duped by amaral...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 13, 2015, 11:40:10 PM
Yeah the sex tissue had blood on it. Eddie alerts to blood.

Well that's a new one I must say.  But at least you are admitting that Eddie alerted to blood.

PS.  Where was Keela, by the way?

Not that any of this explains why Amaral made such a mess of it all.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 01:08:20 AM
you are a classic example of how people have been duped by amaral...

My own thoughts have nothing to do with Amaral. Eddie alerted to cadaver scent in the Prout case when there was no proof. Grime knows Eddie and has given his own professional opinion. Prout was convicted on circumstantial evidence. He later confessed but denied it for years and many believed him.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 14, 2015, 02:20:42 AM
In an experiment, a scent pad was contacted with a subject at post mortem interval (PMI) 1hr 10mins, and later when the pad was sniffed by 5 EVRD dogs, NONE of the 5 dogs alerted.

When a pad was sampled at PMI = 1hr 25mins and later sniffed by the 5 dogs, one of the dogs alerted, so that is the minimum according to that experiment.

Of all of Eddie's many successful cases, can anyone post a case where a PMI proven to be as short as only 45mins (like proposed in the book) produced an alert?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 07:35:07 AM
My own thoughts have nothing to do with Amaral. Eddie alerted to cadaver scent in the Prout case when there was no proof. Grime knows Eddie and has given his own professional opinion. Prout was convicted on circumstantial evidence. He later confessed but denied it for years and many believed him.


the fact is that both Grime and Harrison say the alerts are not confirmed...fact...yet amaral takes the alerts as proof....he is wrong to do that...thereis no evidence that Maddie died in the apartment yet amaral claims he can prove it...he is a fantasist
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 07:57:21 AM

the fact is that both Grime and Harrison say the alerts are not confirmed...fact...yet amaral takes the alerts as proof....he is wrong to do that...thereis no evidence that Maddie died in the apartment yet amaral claims he can prove it...he is a fantasist

No dave it remains a possibility.

As to abduction. no evidence at all, unless you are a complete fantasist yourself.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 08:00:48 AM

the fact is that both Grime and Harrison say the alerts are not confirmed...fact...yet amaral takes the alerts as proof....he is wrong to do that...thereis no evidence that Maddie died in the apartment yet amaral claims he can prove it...he is a fantasist

And yet he believes he can win the libel trial ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 08:02:11 AM
And yet he believes he can win the libel trial ...

Wait for round two.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 08:06:02 AM
Yeah the sex tissue had blood on it. Eddie alerts to blood.
Yes he does.  So, asking again, why did he alert to a tissue in a windy old gun placement in Jersey and not alert to traces of blood that must surely have been present in all (or at least some) of the apartments he checked out?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 08:14:08 AM
Wait for round two.
if there is around two.....the court has to allow the appeal first
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 08:30:55 AM
if there is around two.....the court has to allow the appeal first

That will not be a problem.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2015, 08:54:15 AM
The dog alerts were confirmed and Gonçalo Amaral did not misinterpret the DNA results. The first reports given to the PJ from the laboratory and the UK police indicated a match to Madeleine, then with the bombshell final report, John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2015, 08:55:36 AM
if there is around two.....the court has to allow the appeal first

Don't worry, the appeal will take place, it is an automatic right.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 08:59:56 AM
Don't worry, the appeal will take place, it is an automatic right.

No it isn't an automatic right.

The appellants must cite grounds of appeal that will be considered and either granted or rejected.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 09:06:28 AM

No it isn't an automatic right.

The appellants must cite grounds of appeal that will be considered and either granted or rejected.
#=

Wait and see ferryman. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: carlymichelle on May 14, 2015, 09:09:16 AM
#=

Wait and see ferryman. 8((()*/

as they  say  it aint over until the fat lady sings *&*%£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 14, 2015, 09:16:33 AM
The dog alerts were confirmed and Gonçalo Amaral did not misinterpret the DNA results. The first reports given to the PJ from the laboratory and the UK police indicated a match to Madeleine, then with the bombshell final report, John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.

So - when all else fails - claim it was a conspiracy.  That is what you are claiming above isn't it Montclair?



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2015, 09:18:03 AM
So - when all else fails - claim it was a conspiracy.  That is what you are claiming above isn't it Montclair?

I'm not claiming anything, I'm just telling you what happened.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 14, 2015, 09:21:34 AM

No it isn't an automatic right.

The appellants must cite grounds of appeal that will be considered and either granted or rejected.

Sorry, the appellants in Portugal do not have to ask for the right to appeal, it is automatic. Especially, in Gonçalo Amaral's case, you don't really think that he wouldn't have the right to appeal a decision which rules that he has to pay over € 500.000,00!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 09:23:06 AM


#=

Wait and see ferryman. 8((()*/

Montclaire, your apology is accepted:

I hope Jean-Pierre will forgive me for citing one of his earlier posts:

The current legal position in Portugal is that Amaral has a right to appeal, and has a limited timeframe in which to do so. 

He will have to stipulate the grounds for the appeal and the legal and or factual matters that he is challenging.  The Court will then decide whether the grounds for that appeal have merit. 

If it decides they do, then the case is sent to the court of second instance (Tribunal da Relação).  If it decides the appeal is without merit then the matter ends there and the judgement of the court is enforced.

The matter may proceed to the Supreme Court, provided that the courts of first and second instance do not provide the same judgement.

The reason for this process is to avoid the higher courts becoming clogged with appeal cases. 

It is also to prevent a respondant being able to spin out an unfavourable judgement indefinitely, thereby denying justice to a rightful claimant. 
 

(Jean-Pierre)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 09:25:27 AM

Montclaire, your apology is accepted:

I hope Jean-Pierre will forgive me for citing one of his earlier posts:

The current legal position in Portugal is that Amaral has a right to appeal, and has a limited timeframe in which to do so. 

He will have to stipulate the grounds for the appeal and the legal and or factual matters that he is challenging.  The Court will then decide whether the grounds for that appeal have merit. 

If it decides they do, then the case is sent to the court of second instance (Tribunal da Relação).  If it decides the appeal is without merit then the matter ends there and the judgement of the court is enforced.

The matter may proceed to the Supreme Court, provided that the courts of first and second instance do not provide the same judgement.

The reason for this process is to avoid the higher courts becoming clogged with appeal cases. 

It is also to prevent a respondant being able to spin out an unfavourable judgement indefinitely, thereby denying justice to a rightful claimant. 
 

(Jean-Pierre)

Read Montclair.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 09:27:31 AM
To clear up a semantic quibble, Amaral has a right to cite grounds of an appeal.

He does not have an automatic right to expect that the grounds will be accepted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 09:32:41 AM
To clear up a semantic quibble, Amaral has a right to cite grounds of an appeal.

He does not have an automatic right to expect that the grounds will be accepted.

Are you an expert on Portuguese Law ?

and/or just worried that Amaral will win.

The case is unprecedented in Portuguese legal history.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 09:34:40 AM
Are you an expert on Portuguese Law ?

and/or just worried that Amaral will win.

The case is unprecedented in Portuguese legal history.

I readily concede that Jean-Pierre knows far more about Portuguese law than me.

I have merely repeated what he said.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 14, 2015, 09:37:36 AM
I readily concede that Jean-Pierre knows far more about Portuguese law than me.

I have merely repeated what he said.

How do you know jp is an expert in Portuguese Law ?

and Montclair ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 09:43:27 AM

There is a perfectly good Thread on Amaral and The Law.  Please take these comments there.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 14, 2015, 09:51:14 AM
I'm not claiming anything, I'm just telling you what happened.

Quote
 John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.
End quote

So can you explain the above please.   It's sounds to me as if you are inferring a conspiracy took place.  For what other reason would you describe John Lowe's actions as ...'very strange - or not so strange at all' ?

IMO Amaral in his haste -  jumped the gun and came to a premature conclusion which turned out to be wrong.     John Lowe's report simply gave the reasons why he was mistaken.

Would you agree with that?     





Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 09:56:44 AM
Quote
 John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.
End quote

So can you explain the above please.   It's sounds to me as if you are inferring a conspiracy took place.  For what other reason would you describe John Lowe's actions as ...'very strange - or not so strange at all' ?

IMO Amaral in his haste -  jumped the gun and came to a premature conclusion which turned out to be wrong.     John Lowe's report simply gave the reasons why he was mistaken.

Would you agree with that?   

One thing that incensed Amaral was that John Lowe made no more than a fleeting mention of the result from the boot of the Renault Scenic in his report.

He interpreted that as evidence that the FSS had changed their mind.

The FSS had done no such thing.

John Lowe simply considered that, having expained in detail all there was to say about that result in his email to Stuart Prior, there was nothing more to say about it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 01:00:20 PM
The dog alerts were confirmed and Gonçalo Amaral did not misinterpret the DNA results. The first reports given to the PJ from the laboratory and the UK police indicated a match to Madeleine, then with the bombshell final report, John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.


I understand that you support Amaral... but I simply don't see how you have come to this conclusion.

Perhaps you could provide clear cites as to how you have done so?

Have you actually read and understood the files regarding Lowe's email and subsequent report?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 14, 2015, 01:09:19 PM
Yes he does.  So, asking again, why did he alert to a tissue in a windy old gun placement in Jersey and not alert to traces of blood that must surely have been present in all (or at least some) of the apartments he checked out?

A very important question indeed. Nobody wants to answer, though.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 14, 2015, 01:20:25 PM
The dog alerts were confirmed and Gonçalo Amaral did not misinterpret the DNA results. The first reports given to the PJ from the laboratory and the UK police indicated a match to Madeleine, then with the bombshell final report, John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! Very strange or not so strange at all.



Let's examine your assertion.

... The dog alerts were confirmed (by whom?)

...Gonçalo Amaral did not misinterpret the DNA results. (Ok, let's read further)

...The first reports given to the PJ from the laboratory and the UK police indicated a match to Madeleine (cite from the forensic files, please?)

...then with the bombshell final report, John Lowe somehow mixes in 37 markers instead of the 19 (cite from the forensic files, please?)



...and all of a sudden they don't know who the fluids belong to! (could you indicate where - in the forensic reports - that it was ever established that there were any fluids? Once you've provided a cite for that, perhaps we could examine where there was a "sudden doubt" as to whom those "fluids" might have belonged.)







Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 14, 2015, 06:08:52 PM
That will not be a problem.

You make me laugh Stephen with your comments   'that will not be a problem'   it's as if you can see into the future,  you can't though can you?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 06:17:27 PM
Yes he does.  So, asking again, why did he alert to a tissue in a windy old gun placement in Jersey and not alert to traces of blood that must surely have been present in all (or at least some) of the apartments he checked out?

Eddie was searching for cadaver scent and he found it at the wardrobe. Keela is the blood dog.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 06:23:43 PM
Eddie was searching for cadaver scent and he found it at the wardrobe. Keela is the blood dog.
What was he searching for in Jersey, when he alerted to the tissue?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 14, 2015, 06:26:07 PM
Eddie was searching for cadaver scent and he found it at the wardrobe. Keela is the blood dog.

Eddie was searching for a scent he was trained to react to, which includes the scent of blood.

And then there are the well-documented studies that establish that excessive direction (of a dog) and sub-concious bias can influence dog reactions.

Grime himself says as much in his profile.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 06:31:41 PM
Eddie was searching for a scent he was trained to react to, which includes the scent of blood.

And then there are the well-documented studies that establish that excessive direction (of a dog) and sub-concious bias can influence dog reactions.

Grime himself says as much in his profile.

As soon as Eddie entered 5A he detected the scent and was searching for the body. His behaviour changed. Grime knows his dog and the wardrobe was the first alert by Eddie. That alert wasn't for blood!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 06:36:37 PM
As soon as Eddie entered 5A he detected the scent and was searching for the body. His behaviour changed. Grime knows his dog and the wardrobe was the first alert by Eddie. That alert wasn't for blood!

typical sceptic poor level of understanding re the alerts
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 06:39:53 PM
As soon as Eddie entered 5A he detected the scent and was searching for the body. His behaviour changed. Grime knows his dog and the wardrobe was the first alert by Eddie. That alert wasn't for blood!
Why did Grime bother with Keela at all then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 06:48:03 PM
Why did Grime bother with Keela at all then?

Keela finds blood that has been cleaned to try and detect that vital missing evidence. Keela has to get in real close and sniff hard while Eddie can roam around to detect the source.

Watch the video and see how they work:

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 06:53:15 PM
Keela finds blood that has been cleaned to try and detect that vital missing evidence. Keela has to get in real close and sniff hard while Eddie can roam around to detect the source.

Watch the video and see how they work:

Why bother with Keela when Eddie can also find blood - eg: on a tissue?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 06:56:24 PM
God, I am getting so bored with this.  Did Eddie think he was on a Jolly?  Or did he think he was going to play the game, as it were?

He was a Spaniel and basically a Working Dog.  It's what they do.  He didn't understand the sense of it, but he knew that the game was on.

And quite frankly, I am appalled by the fact that Martin Grime had so little control of the dog that he couldn't even get it to walk to heal.
But then I don't believe that.  Martin Grime knew exactly what he was doing.  So don't tell me that Eddie could smell anything from the walkway outside the appartment.  Especially when it took him some time to smell anything inside the appartment.

That was the best bit of grandstanding that I have ever seen.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 08:55:26 PM
Eddie was different from the day he was born. A dog whose owner was finding him simply "unmanageable".

"His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.” The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

The video clearly showed the spaniel examining the other vehicles without reacting, and as soon as it entered the Lantra it began barking and refused to get out.

The dogs have spoken and it's no game because if they get it wrong they are out of a job. They weren't the best paid  dogs in Britain for getting it wrong  @)(++(* Successful cases and top marks put them into that position. Crime scenes that are cleaned and covered up won't fool these dogs. They only alert when 100% certain.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 09:03:49 PM
Eddie was different from the day he was born. A dog whose owner was finding him simply "unmanageable".

"His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.” The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

The video clearly showed the spaniel examining the other vehicles without reacting, and as soon as it entered the Lantra it began barking and refused to get out.

The dogs have spoken and it's no game because if they get it wrong they are out of a job. They weren't the best paid  dogs in Britain for getting it wrong  @)(++(* Successful cases and top marks put them into that position. Crime scenes that are cleaned and covered up won't fool these dogs. They only alert when 100% certain.
What a peculiar post.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 14, 2015, 09:19:51 PM
What a peculiar post.

It was to show to Eleanor that he sometimes did things differently but he was always successful at his job.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 14, 2015, 09:30:35 PM
It was to show to Eleanor that he sometimes did things differently but he was always successful at his job.
I don't know where to begin with that one tbh, quite extraordinary...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 09:41:18 PM
It was to show to Eleanor that he sometimes did things differently but he was always successful at his job.

I suppose that you do know that any old dog can find a Cadaver?  Or do you think that this is peculiar only to trained dogs?

Oh, and by the way, they mostly dig them up.

I've got a pint sized Pug, and even she could find a Cadaver.  She just wouldn't waste her time barking about it.

I do think that you try with the best of intentions according to your faith.  And I don't actually enjoy putting you down.  But some of your thinking is crackers.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 09:43:15 PM
It was to show to Eleanor that he sometimes did things differently but he was always successful at his job.

The truth is...and we should all be very interested in the truth...we don't know how good eddie was at his job since the overwhelming vast majority of his alerts that I have seen are unconfirmed...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 14, 2015, 09:46:00 PM
I suppose that you do know that any old dog can find a Cadaver?  Or do you think that this is peculiar only to trained dogs?

Oh, and by the way, they mostly dig them up.

I've got a pint sized Pug, and even she could find a Cadaver.  She just wouldn't waste her time barking about it.

I do think that you try with the best of intentions according to your faith.  And I don't actually enjoy putting you down.  But some of your thinking is crackers.

to his credit...path is usually very pleasant and not vindinctive
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 10:00:21 PM
to his credit...path is usually very pleasant and not vindinctive

Absolutely.  We might all take a lesson.  Perhaps we can all try a bit harder.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 14, 2015, 10:52:28 PM
I suppose that you do know that any old dog can find a Cadaver?  Or do you think that this is peculiar only to trained dogs?

Oh, and by the way, they mostly dig them up.

I've got a pint sized Pug, and even she could find a Cadaver.  She just wouldn't waste her time barking about it.

I do think that you try with the best of intentions according to your faith.  And I don't actually enjoy putting you down.  But some of your thinking is crackers.

Scary.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 14, 2015, 11:36:28 PM
Scary.

Yes.  Really scary when people have no real knowledge of what they are talking about.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 14, 2015, 11:43:42 PM
Just shows how bleedin' dangerous Googling can be  ?{)(**
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:22:46 AM
So if Eddie alerts and Keela alerts at the same place what conclusion can we draw, if any?

You have a choice. Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent and Keela signalled blood. Or both dogs signalled blood. The problem is you have no way of knowing for sure. You also have a massive problem when one dog alerts and the other doesn't, proving that the first (cadaver) dog was not alerting to blood.

The point being put about ,that if Keela alerted where Eddie did, it must mean blood is also a misnomer. Its entirely possible that blood can be found where a dead body has laid.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:25:07 AM
Should equal blood but no cadaver scent.

Err no, a cadaver dog can scent the remnant scent of a dead body and a blood dog can find blood in the same place. Both alerts do not have to mean alerting to the same thing.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 15, 2015, 12:26:43 AM
Do we really have to do this again?  I don't think I can take it for much longer.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:30:03 AM
"The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes"
http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
So the hypothesis in the VeM book which has PMI of only 45 mins must be incorrect IMO

What is the  VeM book?

Why do you assume 45 minutes?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:32:02 AM
Eddy was trained initially as a Victim Recovery Dog.  VRD.  They are trained to scent blood from live people.

So what? Keela didnt, when sent in after Eddie, ergo wasnt blood from a live person
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 15, 2015, 12:35:13 AM
So what? Keela didnt, when sent in after Eddie, ergo wasnt blood from a live person

Dogs can only scent Dried Blood.  Perhaps you didn't know that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:45:21 AM
Dogs can only scent Dried Blood.  Perhaps you didn't know that.

Keela scents all blood, perhaps you didnt know that? My point was Eddies alerts in 5a which Keela did  not confirm could NOT have been blood

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 12:48:18 AM
Dogs can only scent Dried Blood.  Perhaps you didn't know that.

The dogs work as a team to find evidence of death not blood from a nose bleed. They are investigating a possible death inside the apartment.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:50:50 AM
I suppose that you do know that any old dog can find a Cadaver?  Or do you think that this is peculiar only to trained dogs?

Oh, and by the way, they mostly dig them up.

I've got a pint sized Pug, and even she could find a Cadaver.  She just wouldn't waste her time barking about it.

I do think that you try with the best of intentions according to your faith.  And I don't actually enjoy putting you down.  But some of your thinking is crackers.

What a silly post.....eddie was trained on finding REMNANT CADAVER SCENT.....if youre  pug can do that get him signed up...might save the police some money
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 15, 2015, 12:58:02 AM
Eddie could have been alerting to any body fluid, or it could have just been a false alert.
 Either way there was no body................So if anyone believes there was a body, Where is it?
The McCanns were not familiar with the area.
No evidence of anything really.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


“The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stillborn decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body…He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of ‘cadaver scent’ odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.”
http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/08/09/missing-link-overlooked-in-the-madeleine-mccann-case/

‘Eddie’ The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain.



We know that Eddie has been trained using blood, bone tissue, teeth and decomposed cross-contaminants… so it is feasible to say that he could alert to skin tissue or other decomposing bodily fluids from a dead or living human being. We also know from the Haut de la Garenne case that Eddie did alert to tissues used to clean up after sex..


https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/the-dogs-their-findings-and-facts/

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 12:58:46 AM
The dogs work as a team to find evidence of death not blood from a nose bleed. They are investigating a possible death inside the apartment.

Exactly, thats the only reason they were sent in
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 01:05:19 AM
Eddie could have been alerting to any body fluid, or it could have just been a false alert.
 Either way there was no body................So if anyone believes there was a body, Where is it?
The McCanns were not familiar with the area.
No evidence of anything really.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


“The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and stillborn decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is introduced to the scent of a decomposing body…He has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of ‘cadaver scent’ odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.”
http://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/08/09/missing-link-overlooked-in-the-madeleine-mccann-case/

‘Eddie’ The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.R.D.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood in any environment or terrain.



We know that Eddie has been trained using blood, bone tissue, teeth and decomposed cross-contaminants… so it is feasible to say that he could alert to skin tissue or other decomposing bodily fluids from a dead or living human being. We also know from the Haut de la Garenne case that Eddie did alert to tissues used to clean up after sex..


https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/the-dogs-their-findings-and-facts/

No use quoting a biased uninformed blog anna is it? Or is it? Oh well, carry on supporting the agenda that Eddie was alerting anything from a corpose, blood, a dead pig, a nappy, broken toenails, infected brietta algae sandals, an abortion, a miscarriage, a missed by police bloody murder, or suicide, people leaving their used condoms around., their dirty nappies, rotting teeth,, leaving pee and poo all over the bathroom.....gosh the list is endless and it all happend in 5 a potentially but we KNOW nowhere else, hahaha!! You have got to be bloody joking at best, laters, long shift, will check timorrow!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 01:10:38 AM
Exactly, thats the only reason they were sent in

They miss the whole point. The dogs are investigating death. If Eddie doesn't alert then Keela is not used. Eddie detects the source of scent and Keela is brought in to find the proof of the missing person. If that DNA matched Madeleine then the police would think she died inside the apartment. Eddie has given his cadaver alert at the crime scene and Keela has found a blood match. Now you need to find the body. SY have begun searches for that stage.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 15, 2015, 01:33:35 AM
What is the  VeM book?

Why do you assume 45 minutes?
Sorry VdM, "Verdade Da Mentira".
The sofa theory is in the files. From chat to alarm is about 45 mins.
But the CSST experiment found the minimum PMI required is 85 mins.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 01:34:23 AM
MARTIN GRIME PERSONAL PROFILE
09-Processo 9..Pages 2262 to 2268 
11 also Processo XI 2813 to 2835

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 08:12:33 AM
You have a choice. Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent and Keela signalled blood. Or both dogs signalled blood. The problem is you have no way of knowing for sure. You also have a massive problem when one dog alerts and the other doesn't, proving that the first (cadaver) dog was not alerting to blood.

The point being put about ,that if Keela alerted where Eddie did, it must mean blood is also a misnomer. Its entirely possible that blood can be found where a dead body has laid.
Do you have an objective, unbiased cite based on scientific evidence that your statement in bold is true?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 15, 2015, 09:04:26 AM
No use quoting a biased uninformed blog anna is it? Or is it? Oh well, carry on supporting the agenda that Eddie was alerting anything from a corpose, blood, a dead pig, a nappy, broken toenails, infected brietta algae sandals, an abortion, a miscarriage, a missed by police bloody murder, or suicide, people leaving their used condoms around., their dirty nappies, rotting teeth,, leaving pee and poo all over the bathroom.....gosh the list is endless and it all happend in 5 a potentially but we KNOW nowhere else, hahaha!! You have got to be bloody joking at best, laters, long shift, will check timorrow!

Since you do not appear to understand(or want to) the words of an expert or Mr Grimes' report in the McCann files, I thought these simple links might help................but alas you are convinced, so I will leave you to it.
Nobody knows what happened and it is all guesswork. If, however you have proof that madeleine died in 5A, Please share.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 09:19:05 AM
The dogs work as a team to find evidence of death not blood from a nose bleed. They are investigating a possible death inside the apartment.
They're not trained to find evidence of sexual intercourse but that is what Eddie alerted to in Jersey - it's an inconvenient truth which you simply cannot ignore (though you do a good job of it on here, granted!)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 15, 2015, 09:26:22 AM
They're not trained to find evidence of sexual intercourse but that is what Eddie alerted to in Jersey - it's an inconvenient truth which you simply cannot ignore (though you do a good job of it on here, granted!)

That makes one wonder about the quality of handler cuing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 09:54:04 AM
That makes one wonder about the quality of handler cuing.

The dog alerts as per its training.  VRD alert to semen.

The dog and its handler worked appropriately and found what was there to be found.  That it was not what was expected is no reflection on the dog or its handler.

Even the best dog in the world cannot find what isn't there to be found in the first place.

As Martin Grime has attested ... forensic examination and evidence determines what the dog has alerted to ... nothing else.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 10:02:27 AM
Martin Grime also said of the sex tissue alert words to the effect that the alert was within the parameters of what you'd expect the dog to alert to - I'm sure someone will be able to dig out the exact quote if they're bothered.  So if the expectation is that Eddie will alert to a sex tissue then surely it would be unexpected that he did not alert anywhere at all apart from to McCann property, unless there was an unusually high level of expectation that all other apartments and Murat's house had been kept completely spotless for their entire existence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 15, 2015, 10:15:33 AM
VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.co.uk/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html
ETA
http://www.gov.je/Government/Pages/StatesReports.aspx?ReportID=561
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 10:23:27 AM
Thank you Anna 8((()*/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 05:55:12 PM
Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 06:02:14 PM
Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.
so, the tissue in Jersey contained decomposed human tissue.  Well that's one way of putting it!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 06:19:11 PM
Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

If putrescine and cadaverine are present ... an animal trained to search for human remains will alert. 

Semen contains cadaverine.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 15, 2015, 06:39:10 PM
Eddie and Keela were both deconditioned to alerting to urine, semen, faeces, saliva etc and would only ever alert to such BODILY fluids IF they were mixed with blood.

Eddie was not a decomp dog, which would detect such BODY fluids, he was trained for blood only and then for detecting cadaver scent.

Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper) http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

IIRC - Eddie also alerted to a large number of milk teeth in Jersey.  Another example of alerting to 'body bits' which have become detached from living people - or in this case - from living children.

An alert from Eddie did not necessarily signify a death had occurred at the place where the alert was made - or even that a death had occurred at all.

Amaral claimed that it did. 




Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 06:58:15 PM
If putrescine and cadaverine are present ... an animal trained to search for human remains will alert. 

Semen contains cadaverine.

Eddie doesn't alert to semen unless it's mixed with blood.  Eddie was specially trained and deconditioned to alert to semen. Eddie's job was to find the body. He was trained on human cadavers. The dogs are a murder squad like Operation Grange.

Pseudo scent is an artificially chemically produced product that its  manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some cadaver dog trainers have had limited success with its use in training, when tested on my dogs they showed no interest and it is not used as a training aid for them.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 06:59:47 PM
so, the tissue in Jersey contained decomposed human tissue.  Well that's one way of putting it!

The fact is that in over 200 cases, it has been reported, he (Eddie), has NEVER given a false positive. The commenter has clearly not done any homework because if he/she had have done they would know that the dog that gave a reaction to the “tissue after sex” item was in fact a blood dog by the name of “Keela.”

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 07:09:44 PM
The fact is that in over 200 cases, it has been reported, he (Eddie), has NEVER given a false positive. The commenter has clearly not done any homework because if he/she had have done they would know that the dog that gave a reaction to the “tissue after sex” item was in fact a blood dog by the name of “Keela.”

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html

Errr....so Martin Grime was lying in his report when he wrote:

Quote
The EVRD was deployed in a wide area screening sweep of the site. The following alert indications were forthcoming:




VT / 9 Trench and gun emplacement containing small personnel shelter. Forensic examination revealed recently deposited tissues that appeared to have been used to ‘clean up following sexual intercourse’. It would appear that the shelter had been used as a venue for courting couples. This alert is within the trained parameters of the dog’s repertoire and is a satisfactory explanation of the alert.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 07:19:05 PM
Errr....so Martin Grime was lying in his report when he wrote:

Blood was alerted to on the tissue and both dogs alert to blood.  So either dog would be correct in their blood alert.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 15, 2015, 07:22:27 PM
The fact is that in over 200 cases, it has been reported, he (Eddie), has NEVER given a false positive. The commenter has clearly not done any homework because if he/she had have done they would know that the dog that gave a reaction to the “tissue after sex” item was in fact a blood dog by the name of “Keela.”

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html

What do you mean by cases, and when you say that he never gave a false positive, what exactly are you referring to?

Keela also apparently reacted to the sex tissues. But when did Grime write the notes stating that Eddie's reaction was within his training parameters? As and when Eddie reacted... or only after he'd seen what it was and Keela had also reacted?

There is no way of knowing from that report.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2015, 07:23:50 PM
The fact is that in over 200 cases, it has been reported, he (Eddie), has NEVER given a false positive. The commenter has clearly not done any homework because if he/she had have done they would know that the dog that gave a reaction to the “tissue after sex” item was in fact a blood dog by the name of “Keela.”

http://voiceforchildren.blogspot.com/2012/03/exclusive-footage-of-eddie-cadaver-dog.html

that statement ahs been misinterpreted....plus eddie hasn't been involved in 200 cases
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2015, 07:27:15 PM
that statement ahs been misinterpreted....plus eddie hasn't been involved in 200 cases

In PdL Eddie alerted to cuddle-cat only after it had been hidden in a cupboard, but could, apparently, detect no scent on the toy when it was in front of his nose and he could play with it.

And he detected a scent on clothing in the gym, he was unable to detect a scent on when the same clothing was in the villa.

Most strange ...

And yes, Eddie had been involved in 37 cases up to 2006 ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 07:29:06 PM
that statement ahs been misinterpreted....plus eddie hasn't been involved in 200 cases

Eddie's first murder case search was in 2002.

Wuff justice – Doggy sleuths on the trail of murder victims

They have become national heroes, called upon to take part in many of the country's most high-profile murder investigations

The four-strong team has never looked back and their first successful – though upsetting – find was Mr Collier's body.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/local-stories/wuff-justice-doggy-sleuths-on-the-trail-of-murder-victims-1-2543216

A man convicted of dumping dismembered human remains on Cumbrian moorland, has been jailed for life.
Daniel Thompson, 28, drove to a remote area near Dent and buried the body of Shane Collier, after cutting him into eight pieces.

Thompson was found guilty of murdering 21-year-old Mr Collier at a house in Yews Lane, Kendray, Barnsley, South Yorkshire.

His remains were discovered in two shallow graves bordering the Yorkshire Dales in March 2002, after an extensive search.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2085490.stm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 15, 2015, 07:35:37 PM
Eddie's first murder case search was in 2002. The four-strong team has never looked back and their first successful – though upsetting – find was Mr Collier's body.

A man convicted of dumping dismembered human remains on Cumbrian moorland, has been jailed for life.
Daniel Thompson, 28, drove to a remote area near Dent and buried the body of Shane Collier, after cutting him into eight pieces.

Thompson was found guilty of murdering 21-year-old Mr Collier at a house in Yews Lane, Kendray, Barnsley, South Yorkshire.

His remains were discovered in two shallow graves bordering the Yorkshire Dales in March 2002, after an extensive search.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2085490.stm

And the other 199 cases were...?

The FOI response as to how many cases Eddie had been deployed on between 2003 and 2007 has been posted here numerous times.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 15, 2015, 07:38:18 PM
False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
 operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
 specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
 dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.




in 200 case searches...there are multiple searches in each case


in these 200 case searches eddie has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs...not he has never had a false alert in 200 cases
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 07:38:52 PM
And the other 199 cases were...?

The FOI response as to how many cases Eddie had been deployed on between 2003 and 2007 has been posted here numerous times.

I don't know the figures but they were in very high demand.

SNIFFING out tiny traces of blood in murder cases and tracking down buried human remains is a job only two specialists in Britain are qualified to do.

Two-and-a-half-year-old springer spaniel Eddie and partner Frankie – a four-year-old border collie – are experts who come second to none in their line of work.

"We put together a business plan for our bosses, with the idea that we would be called out on perhaps two jobs a year – but it's taken off beyond belief. We're currently getting about two requests every week."

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/local-stories/wuff-justice-doggy-sleuths-on-the-trail-of-murder-victims-1-2543216
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 07:48:29 PM
Eddie doesn't alert to semen unless it's mixed with blood.  Eddie was specially trained and deconditioned to alert to semen. Eddie's job was to find the body. He was trained on human cadavers. The dogs are a murder squad like Operation Grange.

Pseudo scent is an artificially chemically produced product that its  manufacturers claim to resemble 'dead body scent'. Although some cadaver dog trainers have had limited success with its use in training, when tested on my dogs they showed no interest and it is not used as a training aid for them.


Putrecine and cadaverine occur naturally and are part of the smell of human remains.

There is no way a dog trained to locate human remains will ignore that scent.  It all emanates from the body; if someone has ejaculated and for example, cleaned with a tissue ... the dog will react as Eddie did.

**snip
The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

//////
 
  ...cadaverine and putrescine contribute, in small parts, to the smell of urine.

They also turn up in other bodily fluids - both contribute to the odour of semen ...

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp
 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 07:48:56 PM
False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
 operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
 criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
 specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
 dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.




in 200 case searches...there are multiple searches in each case


in these 200 case searches eddie has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs...not he has never had a false alert in 200 cases

And their professionalism and success rate are such that when the FBI called on their services recently, they were simply too busy to help.

The South Yorkshire "body dogs" and their handlers, PC Martin Grime and PC John Ellis, are quickly becoming one of the biggest success stories of the police force and have been involved in some of the most high-profile murder investigations of the last three years.

SY haven't ignored the alerts. They are searching for a body. Time for a reality check about these dogs. They are casen proved and get things right.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 07:53:51 PM
Blood was alerted to on the tissue and both dogs alert to blood.  So either dog would be correct in their blood alert.
You quoted some blog to give the impression that it was Keela, not Eddie that alerted to the tissue - why did you do that, out of interest?  Eddie alerted to the tissue.  So my original question has yet to be addressed - why did he not alert to any place or property except those pertaining to the McCanns...?  Are we to believe that there was no trace of blood in any other apartment, or in Murat's house?  How long did Eddie spend at Murat's residence? 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 07:58:40 PM
You quoted some blog to give the impression that it was Keela, not Eddie that alerted to the tissue - why did you do that, out of interest?  Eddie alerted to the tissue.  So my original question has yet to be addressed - why did he not alert to any place or property except those pertaining to the McCanns...?  Are we to believe that there was no trace of blood in any other apartment, or in Murat's house?  How long did Eddie spend at Murat's residence?

That was from Lenny Harper. All you need to know is that SY are looking for a body because of these exceptional murder crime dog detectives. Let's see if this case is solved then we will know how good Eddie and Keela were  ?>)()<
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 08:24:04 PM
That was from Lenny Harper. All you need to know is that SY are looking for a body because of these exceptional murder crime dog detectives. Let's see if this case is solved then we will know how good Eddie and Keela were  ?>)()<
All I WANT to know is why you are unable to address the very salient question I keep on putting on putting to you.  Is it because you don't know the answer?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:28:49 PM
Sorry VdM, "Verdade Da Mentira".
The sofa theory is in the files. From chat to alarm is about 45 mins.
But the CSST experiment found the minimum PMI required is 85 mins.

That is presuming Gerald Mccann told the truth when he said he looked in on his child at around 9.15pm that night. There is no evidence that he did or didn't.

As regards the time interval between death and a cadaver dog picking up on this, there is a plethora of information, some anecdotal, some scientific, some confirmed via police work, some in Mr Grime's own CV, and this ranges from "immediately  to 3 hours".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:32:32 PM
They miss the whole point. The dogs are investigating death. If Eddie doesn't alert then Keela is not used. Eddie detects the source of scent and Keela is brought in to find the proof of the missing person. If that DNA matched Madeleine then the police would think she died inside the apartment. Eddie has given his cadaver alert at the crime scene and Keela has found a blood match. Now you need to find the body. SY have begun searches for that stage.

Correct.

But the FSS did not find a clear blood match to Madeleine Mccann, just a possible one.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:33:00 PM
MARTIN GRIME PERSONAL PROFILE
09-Processo 9..Pages 2262 to 2268 
11 also Processo XI 2813 to 2835

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

And?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:34:26 PM
Do you have an objective, unbiased cite based on scientific evidence that your statement in bold is true?

It's common sense and logic in the main.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 08:36:58 PM
All I WANT to know is why you are unable to address the very salient question I keep on putting on putting to you.  Is it because you don't know the answer?

Eddie is sent in first to find a body. When Eddie has alerted Keela comes in to locate any microscopic blood. Eddie is the body dog and Keela is the blood dog. Eddie is there to find evidence of a body in a missing person case. If Eddie doesn't alert to a body then Keela is not used.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 08:37:57 PM
It's common sense and logic in the main.
That's simply not good enough I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 08:38:55 PM
Eddie is sent in first to find a body. When Eddie has alerted Keela comes in to locate any microscopic blood. It is too simple for you to understand. Eddie is the body dog and Keela is the blood dog. Eddie is there to find evidence of a body in a missing person case.
Another non-answer. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 15, 2015, 08:39:32 PM

Putrecine and cadaverine occur naturally and are part of the smell of human remains.

There is no way a dog trained to locate human remains will ignore that scent.  It all emanates from the body; if someone has ejaculated and for example, cleaned with a tissue ... the dog will react as Eddie did.

**snip
The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

//////
 
  ...cadaverine and putrescine contribute, in small parts, to the smell of urine.

They also turn up in other bodily fluids - both contribute to the odour of semen ...

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp

Are you trying for a lesson in Chemistry, or just trying to extract a straw coloured fluid ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:39:53 PM
Since you do not appear to understand(or want to) the words of an expert or Mr Grimes' report in the McCann files, I thought these simple links might help................but alas you are convinced, so I will leave you to it.
Nobody knows what happened and it is all guesswork. If, however you have proof that madeleine died in 5A, Please share.

I never asserted any such thing Anna. But trust me, I understand the totality of the dog alerts and what they do, do not and could or could not mean. The main thrust of my argument has been about the sheer odds against the given possibilities of the dog alerts and those possibilities existing only in one place, ie the place a child went missing from. Most arguments fall around this but fail every time.

My apologies regarding your link. I mistakenly read it's title and thought it was a "certain known biased" one.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 08:43:09 PM
Another non-answer.

You won't find one example when the missing person has turned up alive after Eddie has alerted to a body. Madeleine is still missing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:47:39 PM
That's simply not good enough I'm afraid.

It is. You cannot ask a question such as , is there any evidence that a blood dog reacts to blood?  when it exists and it is a known fact both from training and real life cases

 &%+((£

Because basically that was what you were saying. That a blood dog was brought in to confirm a cadaver dog's alerts to blood (as asserted by you as the reason for the cadaver dog alerts) but failed to alert, even though the blood dog was more highly and specifically trained for blood. Do you understand?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 08:54:59 PM
It is. You cannot ask a question such as , is there any evidence that a blood dog reacts to blood?  when it exists and it is a known fact both from training and real life cases

 &%+((£

Because basically that was what you were saying. That a blood dog was brought in to confirm a cadaver dog's alerts to blood (as asserted by you as the reason for the cadaver dog alerts) but failed to alert, even though the blood dog was more highly and specifically trained for blood. Do you understand?

And I showed him the video of the dogs training in Jersey. Eddie detected the corpse scent on the beach (his job is to find a body) and Keela detects blood. That's their specialised training to work as a team in a suspected murder case. Eddie finds corpse scent and Keela blood. If Eddie doesn't alert then Keela is not used. They are not used as a team to find blood. They are used to find evidence of the missing person. Who would've thought it could be that simple and that's their job which they were successful at doing  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 08:56:32 PM
It is. You cannot ask a question such as , is there any evidence that a blood dog reacts to blood?  when it exists and it is a known fact both from training and real life cases

 &%+((£

Because basically that was what you were saying. That a blood dog was brought in to confirm a cadaver dog's alerts to blood (as asserted by you as the reason for the cadaver dog alerts) but failed to alert, even though the blood dog was more highly and specifically trained for blood. Do you understand?
You cannot talk of proof without incontovertible evidence, do you understand that?  You cannot state that if one dog alerts and the other dog doesn't it proves the existence of cadaver odour, not without evidence, do you understand that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 08:59:06 PM
And I showed him the video of the dogs training in Jersey. Eddie detected the corpse scent on the beach (his job is to find a body) and Keela detects blood. That's their specialised training to work as a team in a suspected murder case. Eddie finds corpse scent and Keela blood. If Eddie doesn't alert then Keela is not used. They are not used as a team to find blood. They are used to find evidence of the missing person. Who would've thought it could be that simple and that's their job which they were successful at doing  @)(++(*

"They are not used as a team to find blood"

Exactly, but some people here want to promote this silly idea.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 08:59:35 PM
You cannot talk of proof without incontovertible evidence, do you understand that?  You cannot state that if one dog alerts and the other dog doesn't it proves the existence of cadaver odour, not without evidence, do you understand that?

SY are looking for the proof. The dog alerts are evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 15, 2015, 09:01:41 PM
SY are looking for the proof. The dog alerts are evidence.

Both Grime and Harrison state that dog alerts are not evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 09:19:31 PM
You cannot talk of proof without incontovertible evidence, do you understand that?  You cannot state that if one dog alerts and the other dog doesn't it proves the existence of cadaver odour, not without evidence, do you understand that?

You will of course accept my sincerest apologies for even suggesting proof, if I did. The pointers are there and its a simple equation.

It is entitely possible if not probable that if a) cadaver dog alerts and b) blood dog who is more highly trained vis a vis blood does not alert = c) it was not blood that the cadaver dog alerted to and therefore d) cadaver scent. That is why Mr Grime in his police report stated that in his professional opinion Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent contaminant. That does not mean blood from a living person.

It's not hard
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 09:22:29 PM
You will of course accept my sincerest apologies for even suggesting proof, if I did. The pointers are there and its a simple equation.

It is entitely possible if not probable that if a) cadaver dog alerts and b) blood dog who is more highly trained vis a vis blood does not alert = c) it was not blood that the cadaver dog alerted to and therefore d) cadaver scent. That is why Mr Grime in his police report stated that in his professional opinion Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent contaminant. That does not mean blood from a living person.

It's not hard
The reason I asked you for science based evidence in the first place is because you did use the word "prove". 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 15, 2015, 09:35:11 PM
The reason I asked you for science based evidence in the first place is because you did use the word "prove".

I didn't think I did say anything proves anything, can you quote me? bet you can't. meanwhile, try and keep up with the facts and the arguments.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 09:44:27 PM
You will of course accept my sincerest apologies for even suggesting proof, if I did. The pointers are there and its a simple equation.

It is entitely possible if not probable that if a) cadaver dog alerts and b) blood dog who is more highly trained vis a vis blood does not alert = c) it was not blood that the cadaver dog alerted to and therefore d) cadaver scent. That is why Mr Grime in his police report stated that in his professional opinion Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent contaminant. That does not mean blood from a living person.

It's not hard


Nope it sure ain't ... a little bit too much for Mr Amaral to get his head round ... but takes all sorts

Thing to bear in mind is that the components of the "scent of death" number cadaverine and putricine, the names of which are self explanatory.

Makes it rather important for forensic scientists to find out what is actually causing the stink.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 09:57:18 PM

Nope it sure ain't ... a little bit too much for Mr Amaral to get his head round ... but takes all sorts

Thing to bear in mind is that the components of the "scent of death" number cadaverine and putricine, the names of which are self explanatory.

Makes it rather important for forensic scientists to find out what is actually causing the stink.

You are ignorant because you don't know the dogs training. Martin Grime knows and he said Eddie alerted to cadaver and has proven it in many missing person cases. When Maddy turns up alive you can diss the dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 10:11:21 PM
I didn't think I did say anything proves anything, can you quote me? bet you can't. meanwhile, try and keep up with the facts and the arguments.

You wrote the following, did you not?


You have a choice. Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent and Keela signalled blood. Or both dogs signalled blood. The problem is you have no way of knowing for sure. You also have a massive problem when one dog alerts and the other doesn't, proving that the first (cadaver) dog was not alerting to blood.

The point being put about ,that if Keela alerted where Eddie did, it must mean blood is also a misnomer. Its entirely possible that blood can be found where a dead body has laid.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 15, 2015, 10:16:05 PM
You are ignorant because you don't know the dogs training. Martin Grime knows and he said Eddie alerted to cadaver as he has proven it in many missing person cases. When Maddy turns up alive you can diss the dogs.

I sincerely hope Madeleine does turn up alive and well ... but I will not be dissing the dogs when she does.

Of course Eddie alerts to cadaver scent.  Which is a mix max of various organs breaking down at different rates and producing the horrible smell you don't need a dog to locate.
He also alerts to the components of cadaver scent which include cadaverine and putricine ...

It is probable that Eddie KNEW what and maybe even WHO he was smelling ... but he couldn't tell us that ... whatever he was smelling had to be checked out forensically ... and Martin Grime told us that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 10:40:32 PM
I sincerely hope Madeleine does turn up alive and well ... but I will not be dissing the dogs when she does.

Of course Eddie alerts to cadaver scent.  Which is a mix max of various organs breaking down at different rates and producing the horrible smell you don't need a dog to locate.
He also alerts to the components of cadaver scent which include cadaverine and putricine ...

It is probable that Eddie KNEW what and maybe even WHO he was smelling ... but he couldn't tell us that ... whatever he was smelling had to be checked out forensically ... and Martin Grime told us that.

Eddie came months later to detect cadaver scent. If she died inside that apartment she was moved out shortly after. You didn't see the police coming in and saying what's that awful smell did you? If she was later transported in a car the smell would be horrid and you would leave the boot open if you wanted to get rid of it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 10:43:07 PM
Eddie came months later to detect cadaver scent. If she died inside that apartment she was moved out shortly after. You didn't see the police coming in and saying what's that awful smell did you? If she was later transported in a car the smell would be horrid and you would leave the boot open if you wanted to get rid of it.
Why didn't Eddie alert to the boot of the car?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 10:49:20 PM
Why didn't Eddie alert to the boot of the car?

The scent was escaping through the passenger door seal. He didn't sniff the boot seal but went underneath the boot twice.

"the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight."

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 15, 2015, 11:25:39 PM
The scent was escaping through the passenger door seal. He didn't sniff the boot seal but went underneath the boot twice.

"the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight."

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)
So it wasn't blood on the key fob then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 11:40:39 PM
"A diary written by the suspect was alert indicated by Eddie. The diary had in fact been written by the suspect having handled the body."

Diary contaminated after handling body. Straight transfer of cadaver contaminated hands to his diary after death which Eddie alerted to. The same process could explain CC alert.

"Cadaver scent cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces."
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 15, 2015, 11:47:25 PM
So it wasn't blood on the key fob then?

It could be but not in my opinion.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 12:54:54 AM
Eddie came months later to detect cadaver scent. If she died inside that apartment she was moved out shortly after. You didn't see the police coming in and saying what's that awful smell did you? If she was later transported in a car the smell would be horrid and you would leave the boot open if you wanted to get rid of it.

Who said the boot had been left open? ~ a woman driving past

Is there a witness statement from this woman? ~ no there isn't

Who said there was a woman? ~ Mr Amaral

When did he say that? ~ in his book

I think we can rest easy that there is absolutely no veracity in either the existence of this woman or of the claim she was alleged to have made.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 16, 2015, 02:00:14 AM
Who said the boot had been left open? ~ a woman driving past

Is there a witness statement from this woman? ~ no there isn't

Who said there was a woman? ~ Mr Amaral

When did he say that? ~ in his book

I think we can rest easy that there is absolutely no veracity in either the existence of this woman or of the claim she was alleged to have made.
There is a video of this woman, describing what she saw. Have you seen the video?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 16, 2015, 02:12:34 AM
There is a video of this woman, describing what she saw. Have you seen the video?

Is that an official video, recorded in the PJ files?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 16, 2015, 02:28:33 AM
Is that an official video, recorded in the PJ files?
No. But it is a genuine video. She is a real person. IMO she did report it to the PJ, after Mr Amaral was forced out. The released files include almost nothing of the post-Amaral PJ investigations on the ground in PDL.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 16, 2015, 02:34:11 AM
No. But it is a genuine video. She is a real person. IMO she did report it to the PJ, after Mr Amaral was forced out. The released files include almost nothing of the post-Amaral PJ investigations on the ground in PDL.

How do you know the video is genuine?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 16, 2015, 02:52:13 AM
How do you know the video is genuine?
It is certainly a real person in the video. It is too realistic to be a computer generated person. Probably there are some who would prefer this witness had not said what she did, and I predict they will claim that Mr A hired an actress and invented her lines for her (its their only option). IMO the witness is genuine.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 16, 2015, 03:09:31 AM
It is certainly a real person in the video. It is too realistic to be a computer generated person. Probably there are some who would prefer this witness had not said what she did, and I predict they will claim that Mr A hired an actress and invented her lines for her (its their only option). IMO the witness is genuine.

I saw the video, although I can't find it atm. There was no reason for the neighbour to hide her identity - the McCanns had already left Portugal, so there was no threat to her safety.
I also recall the video of "Luisa Monteiro" giving her interview on Euclides & his poetry, but refusing to show her face. Curiously, her blonde wavy hair had morphed into dark curls for the TV - but there we are.
Then there was Martin Grime in the Levy DVD  saying "same as before" when Keela indicated in the wheel well. A 2nd DVD?
Who knows what is genuine & what isn't?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 16, 2015, 11:31:01 AM
It is certainly a real person in the video. It is too realistic to be a computer generated person. Probably there are some who would prefer this witness had not said what she did, and I predict they will claim that Mr A hired an actress and invented her lines for her (its their only option). IMO the witness is genuine.

For someone who is such a stickler for procedure, process and the need for verification, I am amazed that you accept and defend the validity of such material.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:02:35 AM
The scent was escaping through the passenger door seal. He didn't sniff the boot seal but went underneath the boot twice.

"the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight."

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

Who says that a door seeal to a car is not designed to be airtight?

What rubbish

Go in the greatest storm that you can find and with the water splashing up from deep puddles at speed.  Does you door let in the force of the storm?  Nah it does not. 


Not an iota of draught nor a drop of water comes in, unless it is a really old banger.  This car was nearly new.


Of course door seals are designed to be airtight.  That is their VERY purpose for being.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:04:08 AM
The scent was escaping through the passenger door seal. He didn't sniff the boot seal but went underneath the boot twice.

"the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight."

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

Who says that a door seeal to a car is not designed to be airtight?

What rubbish

Go in the greatest storm that you can find and with the water splashing up from deep puddles at speed.  Does you door let in the force of the storm?  Nah it does not. 


Not an iota of draught nor a drop of water comes in, unless it is a really old banger.  This car was nearly new.


Of course door seals are designed to be airtight.  That is their VERY purpose for their being.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:25:07 AM
Who says that a door seeal to a car is not designed to be airtight?

What rubbish

Go in the greatest storm that you can find and with the water splashing up from deep puddles at speed.  Does you door let in the force of the storm?  Nah it does not. 


Not an iota of draught nor a drop of water comes in, unless it is a really old banger.  This car was nearly new.


Of course door seals are designed to be airtight.  That is their VERY purpose for their being.

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

There are several ways to know if you have an airtight car -- and none of them are pleasant. That's because the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight. Fresh air comes in the front of the car, circulates through the passenger compartment and leaves the car through exhausters in the rear. If the cabin of a car or truck were truly airtight, the windows wouldn't defrost, it would get unbearably hot in there and anyone inside wouldn't be able to breathe.
When diagnosing car problems, people might say "airtight" when what they mean is "watertight." Sitting inside a car in the pouring rain or a car wash would quickly tell you if you had any leaks in the door or window seals or even unsealed body seams. The vents that allow fresh air to enter and exit have been designed to keep water out and rarely cause auto problems.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-car-problems/body/car-air-tight.htm

Eddie alerted at the passenger door side where scent was escaping from the car. Eddie was correct in his alert at the source of the scent.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 01:28:31 AM
"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

There are several ways to know if you have an airtight car -- and none of them are pleasant. That's because the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight. Fresh air comes in the front of the car, circulates through the passenger compartment and leaves the car through exhausters in the rear. If the cabin of a car or truck were truly airtight, the windows wouldn't defrost, it would get unbearably hot in there and anyone inside wouldn't be able to breathe.
When diagnosing car problems, people might say "airtight" when what they mean is "watertight." Sitting inside a car in the pouring rain or a car wash would quickly tell you if you had any leaks in the door or window seals or even unsealed body seams. The vents that allow fresh air to enter and exit have been designed to keep water out and rarely cause auto problems.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-car-problems/body/car-air-tight.htm

Eddie alerted at the passenger door side where scent was escaping from the car. Eddie is correct in his alert at the source of the scent.

Please explain why Eddie didn't bark at the rear of the car where Keela indicated.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:35:01 AM
Please explain why Eddie didn't bark at the rear of the car where Keela indicated.

He didn't sniff the rear boot seal. He was first chasing the scent a good distance away from the source i.e. car and that wasn't the scent of blood you can't even see. That was a different much stronger scent that was escaping from the car into the underground car park. Keela has to get inside the car and sniff very close to detect any blood traces so IMO Eddie alerted to strong cadaver scent coming out of that car. If it was that then a cadaver was inside the boot at some point. We have seen it in countless cases - bodies moved in the boots of cars. And we know Keela got a match of 15 out of 19 then 37 or whatever they were trying to say. Can they prove it was 5 different people that made up that match that matched Madeleine? New boot tests me thinks.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:36:31 AM
"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

There are several ways to know if you have an airtight car -- and none of them are pleasant. That's because the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight. Fresh air comes in the front of the car, circulates through the passenger compartment and leaves the car through exhausters in the rear. If the cabin of a car or truck were truly airtight, the windows wouldn't defrost, it would get unbearably hot in there and anyone inside wouldn't be able to breathe.
When diagnosing car problems, people might say "airtight" when what they mean is "watertight." Sitting inside a car in the pouring rain or a car wash would quickly tell you if you had any leaks in the door or window seals or even unsealed body seams. The vents that allow fresh air to enter and exit have been designed to keep water out and rarely cause auto problems.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-car-problems/body/car-air-tight.htm

Eddie alerted at the passenger door side where scent was escaping from the car. Eddie was correct in his alert at the source of the scent.
Pathfinder , what you quote above answers whether the door seals are airtight [scentproof] or not. 


The air that circulates in a car comes in via vents at the front and exits via exhausters at the rear.  Have you got it?

The door seals do not allow passage of air or water or scent.  They are impervious.



Do you understand this now?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:39:20 AM
Pathfinder , what you quote above answers whether the door seals are airtight [scentproof] or not. 


The air that circulates in a car comes in via vents at the front and exits via exhausters at the rear.  Have you got it?

The door seals do not allow passage of air or water or scent.  They are impervious.



Do you understand this now?

You haven't got it at all. Watertight doesn't mean airtight. Scent was escaping through the passenger door - that's why Eddie alerted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:41:40 AM
He didn't sniff the rear boot seal. He was first chasing the scent a good distance away from the source i.e. car and that wasn't the scent of blood you can't even see. That was a different much stronger scent that was escaping from the car into the underground car park. Keela has to get inside the car and sniff very close to detect any blood traces so IMO Eddie alerted to strong cadaver scent coming out of that car. If it was that then a cadaver was inside the boot at some point. We have seen it in countless cases - bodies moved in the boots of cars.

Just cos bodies can be moved in car boots and sometimes are, DOES NOT mean that this happened in this case.



Pathfinder, my dear, you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you truly believe what you have written. 
May I remind you that there is NO forensic evidence to back your .. erm .. thoughts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:42:18 AM
Just cos bodies can be moved in car boots and sometimes are, DOES NOT mean that this happened in this case.



Pathfinder, my dear, you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you truly believe what you have written. 
May I remind you that there is NO forensic evidence to back your .. erm .. thoughts.

It doesn't mean it didn't happen either with boots left open. Do you think it's impossible to hide someone?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:45:41 AM
You haven't got it at all. Watertight doesn't mean airtight. Scent was escaping through the passenger door - that's why Eddie alerted.
It is you that hasn't got it.  The air comes in via vents at the front and goes out via exhausters at the back.



If the seals were not airproof, every time there was a blast of wind in a gale, you would feel an awful draught.



It is YOU that hasn't got it.


And now, Pfinder.  Nigh Night.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:46:52 AM
It is you that hasn't got it.  The air comes in via vents at the front and goes out via exhausters at the back.



If the seals were not airproof, every time there was a blast of wind in a gale, you would feel an awful draught.



It is YOU that hasn't got it.


And now, Pfinder.  Nigh Night.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/diagnosing-car-problems/body/car-air-tight.htm

Read it. Night Sadie.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 01:48:05 AM
He didn't sniff the rear boot seal. He was first chasing the scent a good distance away from the source i.e. car and that wasn't the scent of blood you can't even see. That was a different much stronger scent that was escaping from the car into the underground car park. Keela has to get inside the car and sniff very close to detect any blood traces so IMO Eddie alerted to strong cadaver scent coming out of that car. If it was that then a cadaver was inside the boot at some point. We have seen it in countless cases - bodies moved in the boots of cars. And we know Keela got a match of 15 out of 19 then 37 or whatever they were trying to say. Can they prove it was 5 different people that made up that match that matched Madeleine. New boot tests me thinks.

I am sorry but I am not following your reasoning. There were blood deposits in the boot which Keela indicated. If the cadaver had been in the boot & bodily fluids were deposited, surely a cadaver dog would have scented this via the boot seal in the same fashion as through the door seal?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 17, 2015, 01:51:34 AM
Please explain why Eddie didn't bark at the rear of the car where Keela indicated.
A vehicle is not sealed. It has various ventilation holes. That's why a person can sleep in a car and never run out of oxygen. Depending on the environment where it is parked and the temperature differentials, air enters some ventilation holes and exits out of others. With all 5 doors closed, Eddie alerted at where air was exiting. The lower part of the driver side front door seal. This seal has ventilation holes in it IMO. In a different airflow environment he might have indicated at the rear hatch door seal. The result is the same, he was alerting to air coming from inside the vehicle.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:52:37 AM
I am sorry but I am not following your reasoning. There were blood deposits in the boot which Keela indicated. If the cadaver had been in the boot & bodily fluids were deposited, surely a cadaver dog would have scented this via the boot seal in the same fashion as through the door seal?

Show me where Eddie sniffed the boot seal? He didn't. He was chasing scent all over the car park. Grime knew that when he passed that car his behaviour drastically changed because he had found a scent so he brought him back to the source i.e. car. Eddie then alerted to the passenger side where the scent was escaping. Scent escaping from there could be from the boot. The whole car would be full of that scent to be all over the car park.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:54:24 AM
I am sorry but I am not following your reasoning. There were blood deposits in the boot which Keela indicated. If the cadaver had been in the boot & bodily fluids were deposited, surely a cadaver dog would have scented this via the boot seal in the same fashion as through the door seal?
Eddie should have scented any blood scents as well, but the boot seal prevented it.


No air passes thru seals of the type used on modern cars.


So, how come he scented a smell of Something, blood or cadervine, around the door seal?


Just how could that have happened? £5%4%
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 17, 2015, 01:56:50 AM
Eddie should have scented any blood scents as well, but the boot seal prevented it.


No air passes thru seals of the type used on modern cars.


So, how come he scented a smell of Something, blood or cadervine, around the door seal?


Just how could that have happened? £5%4%

It did happen because Eddie alerted to the source of the scent i.e. the car. I have proven cars are not airtight on the passenger side where the dog alerted. Eddie was correct.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 01:57:00 AM
Show me where Eddie sniffed the boot seal? He didn't. He was chasing scent all over the car park. Grime knew that when he passed that car his behaviour drastically changed because he had found a scent so he brought him back to the source i.e. car. Eddie then alerted to the passenger side where the scent was escaping. Scent escaping from there could be from the boot. The whole car would be full of that scent to be all over the car park.

You are like Faith.  You have a vivid imagination ... but I like you.

Nigh night again

sadie x
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 02:04:26 AM
A vehicle is not sealed. It has various ventilation holes. That's why a person can sleep in a car and never run out of oxygen. Depending on the environment where it is parked and the temperature differentials, air enters some ventilation holes and exits out of others. With all 5 doors closed, Eddie alerted at where air was exiting. The lower part of the driver side front door seal. This seal has ventilation holes in it IMO. In a different airflow environment he might have indicated at the rear hatch door seal. The result is the same, he was alerting to air coming from inside the vehicle.

Would any airflow not have been from front to back, in light of the way the vehicle was parked?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 17, 2015, 02:20:46 AM
Would any airflow not have been from front to back, in light of the way the vehicle was parked?
I don't know all the ventilation openings in a grand scenic. Logically, when parked, air would flow in lower openings, and out of higher openings. He had access to only the lower openings. This is a limitaion of EVRD dogs, they work at ground level. You can see this in the New Addington case, where the dog was working at 1st floor level and alerted on two seperate days to 2nd floor level (attic). Also you can see the same limitation in video of the south bedroom alert at 5A, where Eddie is searching for some time to locate the source of the scent, concentrating mainly on floor level, and accurately locates the source only when he finally sniffs above ground level, at the first shelf up above floor level in the wardrobe.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 02:54:36 AM
I don't know all the ventilation openings in a grand scenic. Logically, when parked, air would flow in lower openings, and out of higher openings. He had access to only the lower openings. This is a limitaion of EVRD dogs, they work at ground level. You can see this in the New Addington case, where the dog was working at 1st floor level and alerted on two seperate days to 2nd floor level (attic). Also you can see the same limitation in video of the south bedroom alert at 5A, where Eddie is searching for some time to locate the source of the scent, concentrating mainly on floor level, and accurately locates the source only when he finally sniffs above ground level, at the first shelf up above floor level in the wardrobe.

I am still having difficulty understanding how the airflow would have enabled odour from the r/o/s inside the boot to travel diagonally across the vehicle through 2 (or was it 3?) sets of seats and then downwards without some sort of airflow into the boot which would thus be the point at which Eddie should have been able to first detect odour.
P/F's argument that Eddie didn't sniff the boot seal applies to all the other vehicles in that car park so what else may Eddie have missed?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 17, 2015, 08:14:36 AM
I am still having difficulty understanding how the airflow would have enabled odour from the r/o/s inside the boot to travel diagonally across the vehicle through 2 (or was it 3?) sets of seats and then downwards without some sort of airflow into the boot which would thus be the point at which Eddie should have been able to first detect odour.
P/F's argument that Eddie didn't sniff the boot seal applies to all the other vehicles in that car park so what else may Eddie have missed?

If the odour was escaping from the car via air vents ... why didn't Eddie alert at the vents, which would have been the only source ... thinking of scent cones etc?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 17, 2015, 09:25:52 AM
If the odour was escaping from the car via air vents ... why didn't Eddie alert at the vents, which would have been the only source ... thinking of scent cones etc?
Exactly


And how come his nose followed close to the line of the edge of the door seal ?


Gawd, I do have a suspicious mind..... but just how did it happen?


Please reassure me that my suspiciions are wrong by giving me a sensible scenario.





I will say now that I do not believe that a car would be designed with air vents low down and so close to the passengers.  Water would come in.  Additionally the passenger would feel draughts. 


My bet is that the incoming vents are placed in some part of the car which is inherantly dry
... such as under the bonnet


Sorry Pfinder.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 17, 2015, 09:44:49 AM
Exactly


And how come his nose followed close to the line of the edge of the door seal ?


Gawd, I do have a suspicious mind..... but just how did it happen?


Please reassure me that my suspiciions are wrong by giving me a sensible scenario.





I will say now that I do not believe that a car would be designed with air vents low down and so close to the passengers.  Water would come in.  Additionally the passenger would feel draughts. 


My bet is that the incoming vents are placed in some part of the car which is inherantly dry
... such as under the bonnet


Sorry Pfinder.

You really do need to look up the relevant laws of physics and the application of Chemistry in regard to this.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 17, 2015, 10:20:03 AM
Also as mentioned last time we went round this loop, there is a significant part of the bodywork within the door frame and outside the seal that could act as repository for scents transferred from clothing when entering or leaving the car.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 10:24:12 AM
Also as mentioned last time we went round this loop, there is a significant part of the bodywork within the door frame and outside the seal that could act as repository for scents transferred from clothing when entering or leaving the car.
And yet how strange that there were no dog alerts to any of Gerry's clothing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 17, 2015, 10:27:32 AM
And yet how strange that there were no dog alerts to any of Gerry's clothing.

I wasn't aware he was the only person to use the car?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 10:30:48 AM
Has there ever been a list of people drawn up of who was transported in that car in the month after it was first hired by the McCanns?  I know it was used to pick up family members from the airport and back but it would be interesting to know which of these people noticed the lingering stench of decaying corpse on their journey in the car...?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 10:31:31 AM
I wasn't aware he was the only person to use the car?
And your point is...?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 17, 2015, 11:26:42 AM
But that wouldn't explain why Eddie did not alert in the Paynes apartment where he spent hours in the same clothing he had worn that night -  and cross contamination would almost certainly have occurred -  as any residual odour would be at its strongest.

A very good point.

Jesus, you need a mind like a razor to keep up with this.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Admin on May 17, 2015, 11:38:14 AM
Members are warned that speculating to the extent that a post could be considered defamatory is contrary to the forum rules and renders such post open to removal.

Admin
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 12:12:15 PM
You really do need to look up the relevant laws of physics and the application of Chemistry in regard to this.

Perhaps you would be helpful enough to explain it to us in layman's terms so we can all understand why the scent only permeated in the one place.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 17, 2015, 12:14:52 PM
The only permissable, expressable opinion on the subject of the dogs and Amaral on this forum is that he misunderstood the dog alerts and that they were not alerting to cadaver scent - anything else by inference is defamatory,  just sayin'... 8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2015, 03:39:01 PM
You won't find one example when the missing person has turned up alive after Eddie has alerted to a body. Madeleine is still missing.
You don't need to find such a missing person.

Eddie alerted to the Scenic key in the sandbox test.  Keela alerted to the Scenic key, in the sandbox test.  The FSS identified the material on the Scenic key as belonging to Gerry.

Thus the dogs can alert to living people.  Whether such a person is missing or not is irrelevant, because the dogs don't distinguish missing people from non-missing people.  They just alert, and then it is over to forensics.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2015, 04:03:54 PM
The scent was escaping through the passenger door seal. He didn't sniff the boot seal but went underneath the boot twice.

"the passenger compartment of your car is not designed to be airtight."

"I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door." (MG)

Eddie alerted at the driver door, not the passenger door.  He was directed to the passenger door and did not alert.  He did not alert at the boot door.

Martin Grime may or may not be right in saying this was due to the seal on the driver door. 

If the Scenic was deliberately fitted with non-porous seals, then Eddie should have alerted at the passenger door, and probably at the boot door.  Therefore, I conclude that it is not deliberately fitted with porous seals.

That leads me to conclude that IF Martin Grime is correct THEN the driver seal may have been faulty.

However, there is an alternative explanation.

Before Eddie alerted at the driver door, he ran back and forth between the Scenic and the garage ventilator, suggesting that there was a scent trail between the Scenic and the ventilator.

Now consider the set-up of the test.  Along with the other 9 vehicles, the Scenic was driven into the garage and parked in what was deemed to be an appropriate slot.  So we know for a fact that the driver door was opened once when the driver got in and once inside the garage when the driver got out.  It may have been more openings and closings but I neither know nor care.

The result fits the dog's pattern, of a scent stream form the Scenic to the ventilator, with the strongest point being around the door.

If the passenger door of the Scenic was not opened and the boot was not opened (and why would they be?), then there would be no scent around these parts, hence no alerts.

Try reversing this.  Assume my explanation above is incorrect.  Assume Martin Grime is correct.  Without that faulty seal, the test should have failed i.e. Eddie should not have alerted, just run round in a tizzy between the Scenic and the ventilator.  Then Keela would not have been deployed.

And endless years of argument over the dogs would have had much less fuel.

It wasn't the best-thought through experiment.  All of the vehicles should have had windows down or doors open to ensure interior smells were available at the exterior.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 17, 2015, 05:04:41 PM
All car doors are designed so that any unwanted water which gets inside the door (from rain or carwashes) can drain out. On the underside of a car door are drain holes.

Air can pass from the people area of the car, around the sides of the interior panel of the door, to inside the door, then out the drain holes. That is where the air he sniffed came from IMO, a drain hole at the bottom of the driver door.

Here's how it works on a different make http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/BCGearhead/2000-2005/Water%20Leak%20Repair/Water9.jpg

We need now is a photo of the underside of a scenic door showing the drain holes, anyone here own one?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 05:20:55 PM
All car doors are designed so that any unwanted water which gets inside the door (from rain or carwashes) can drain out. On the underside of a car door are drain holes.

Air can pass from the people area of the car, around the sides of the interior panel of the door, to inside the door, then out the drain holes. That is where the air he sniffed came from IMO, a drain hole at the bottom of the driver door.

Here's how it works on a different make http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/BCGearhead/2000-2005/Water%20Leak%20Repair/Water9.jpg

We need now is a photo of the underside of a scenic door showing the drain holes, anyone here own one?

An explanation as to why Eddie never reacted to the boot might also be helpful...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 17, 2015, 05:26:13 PM
But seems that it is OK to say exactly what THEY want to say about The Mccanns
... including VERY defamatory things, such as continually suggesting by inferring that Gerry is Smithman ... and that Gerry was carrying Madeleines dead body


And also changing the facts subtly to fit THEIR agenda


Can we have a level playing field please.


This from the person who makes unsubstantiated claims about mysterious organisations.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 17, 2015, 05:39:27 PM
I don't know which thread may be appropriate.

My point is that I don't understand the nitpicking of statements when there is a strong likelihood that there were mistakes for all sorts of reasons.

Here's one by Martin Grime, which - for some reason - I have never noticed being picked up.



CANINE VEHICLE SEARCHES.

Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at
Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were
parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle
placement video recording and management of the process was conducted
by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a
vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family,
the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert
indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and
barking.
I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from
the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door.



This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the
vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the
boot area.
Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a
forensic laboratory in the U.K.



That's not correct. Keela alerted to the opposite side of the boot area (i.e. behind the passenger's side).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2015, 07:02:21 PM
All car doors are designed so that any unwanted water which gets inside the door (from rain or carwashes) can drain out. On the underside of a car door are drain holes.

Air can pass from the people area of the car, around the sides of the interior panel of the door, to inside the door, then out the drain holes. That is where the air he sniffed came from IMO, a drain hole at the bottom of the driver door.

Here's how it works on a different make http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/BCGearhead/2000-2005/Water%20Leak%20Repair/Water9.jpg

We need now is a photo of the underside of a scenic door showing the drain holes, anyone here own one?
If it was due to holes in the door, why wasn't the same true of the passenger side?  If the driver door has drain holes, wouldn't the passenger side have the same?  Therefore an air and scent passageway?

If the water from the door drips onto the door footplate, which is then angled to expel the water, we are back to seals that don't seal.  And it should be the same on the passenger side, which was missing an alert.

If it goes out further down the car, there is the issue of why Eddie picked on the bottom of the door, rather than the external drain holes.  And why the driver side but not the passenger side.

I wonder if I know anyone with a Scenic?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 17, 2015, 07:07:09 PM
...

My point is that I don't understand the nitpicking of statements when there is a strong likelihood that there were mistakes for all sorts of reasons.

Here's one by Martin Grime, which - for some reason - I have never noticed being picked up.



CANINE VEHICLE SEARCHES.

...

I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from
the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door. [/i]


This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the
vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the
boot area.
Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a
forensic laboratory in the U.K.



That's not correct. Keela alerted to the opposite side of the boot area (i.e. behind the passenger's side).

Agreed on the mistakes point.  Agreed on the nitpicking point  Agreed on the alert being placed by Martin Grime in the wrong side of the boot.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 17, 2015, 07:13:54 PM
Deleted.






Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on May 18, 2015, 04:07:27 AM
If it was due to holes in the door, why wasn't the same true of the passenger side?  If the driver door has drain holes, wouldn't the passenger side have the same?  Therefore an air and scent passageway?

If the water from the door drips onto the door footplate, which is then angled to expel the water, we are back to seals that don't seal.  And it should be the same on the passenger side, which was missing an alert.

If it goes out further down the car, there is the issue of why Eddie picked on the bottom of the door, rather than the external drain holes.  And why the driver side but not the passenger side.

I wonder if I know anyone with a Scenic?

I think the reason the dog perhaps would not have smelt the same smell from the boot or other door is due to the nature of the way odours disperse. If you think of the way smoke curls and disperses perhaps it's similar to that. It doesn't just disperse evenly it becomes concentrated and collects in certain places. Martin Grimes talks about how these odours can collect in a certain place when Eddie alerts inside the wardrobe.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 18, 2015, 04:15:18 AM
If it was due to holes in the door, why wasn't the same true of the passenger side?  If the driver door has drain holes, wouldn't the passenger side have the same?  Therefore an air and scent passageway?

If the water from the door drips onto the door footplate, which is then angled to expel the water, we are back to seals that don't seal.  And it should be the same on the passenger side, which was missing an alert.

If it goes out further down the car, there is the issue of why Eddie picked on the bottom of the door, rather than the external drain holes.  And why the driver side but not the passenger side.

I wonder if I know anyone with a Scenic?
You are assuming that the airflow through the drainholes on all doors is identical. With unequal temperatures and convection currents the in/out airflow will be different for each door. (Edit, this is same as what lordpookies posted).
BTW there are car auctions in many towns. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 18, 2015, 10:21:23 PM
Off Topic posts will be deleted
[/b]
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 18, 2015, 11:51:29 PM
You are assuming that the airflow through the drainholes on all doors is identical. With unequal temperatures and convection currents the in/out airflow will be different for each door. (Edit, this is same as what lordpookies posted).
BTW there are car auctions in many towns.
Hang on a minute.  You are now talking as tho' drain holes thru doors are a fact.


If there were drain holes thru the doors, why would they bother to fit seals around the doors?


It just doesn't make sense.   
Where air, scent, water can escape so can air. scent and water enter.  It is a two way thing and via the lower part of the door would cause wind and draughts and wetness and out side smells to penetrate.


In an earlier post by, I think Pfinder, she quoted some car information that stated that air came in via the front and exited via exhausters at the rear.


Now that makes sense. 
Air from under the bonnet is dry, capable of being warmed and also capable of being dissipated over a wide area within the car thus avoiding draughts .



Without any proof or even likelyhood, can we please STOP the SPECULATION about drain holes in the door.    


No point in having seals if there are holes letting air and water out and in
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 12:10:03 AM
Hang on a minute.  You are now talking as tho' drain holes thru doors are a fact.


If there were drain holes thru the doors, why would they bother to fit seals around the doors?


It just doesn't make sense.   
Where air, scent, water can escape so can air. scent and water enter.  It is a two way thing and via the lower part of the door would cause wind and draughts and wetness and out side smells to penetrate.


In an earlier post by, I think Pfinder, she quoted some car information that stated that air came in via the front and exited via exhausters at the rear.


Now that makes sense. 
Air from under the bonnet is dry, capable of being warmed and also capable of being dissipated over a wide area within the car thus avoiding draughts .



Without any proof or even likelyhood, can we please STOP the SPECULATION about drain holes in the door.    


No point in having seals if there are holes letting air and water out and in

Car doors have drain hole at bottom.
To let out water which accidentally gets inside the door if the window seal wears.
Search a video site for: water in car door
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 19, 2015, 12:29:35 AM
Car doors have drain hole at bottom.
To let out water which accidentally gets inside the door if the window seal wears.
Search a video site for: water in car door

Only lets water out from the internal area of the door …..not the inside rubber sealed side of the car. Please correct me if I misunderstood this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My car door has water in it. How do I keep it from getting in?
I have a 03 Monte Carlo, the passenger door gets water in it. It will only drain out when the door is open. I have looked at the window gaskets and they look just like the ones on the driver side.


Best Answer: Make sure that the drain holes are clear first. If not, then use a small screwdriver to open them up. You will have to replace the seals against the glass to help keep the water out. You can also remove the door panel and use a hose to determine where the water is coming in at.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081108131138AAg630M
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2015, 07:41:35 AM
Car door seals are not 100% air & water tight.

Women wouldn't understand this because they know precisely nothing about cars.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 09:48:03 AM
Car door seals are not 100% air & water tight.

We have done this before but it does not seem to sink in  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2015, 10:13:18 AM
Hang on a minute.  You are now talking as tho' drain holes thru doors are a fact.


If there were drain holes thru the doors, why would they bother to fit seals around the doors?


It just doesn't make sense.   
Where air, scent, water can escape so can air. scent and water enter.  It is a two way thing and via the lower part of the door would cause wind and draughts and wetness and out side smells to penetrate.


In an earlier post by, I think Pfinder, she quoted some car information that stated that air came in via the front and exited via exhausters at the rear.


Now that makes sense. 
Air from under the bonnet is dry, capable of being warmed and also capable of being dissipated over a wide area within the car thus avoiding draughts .



Without any proof or even likelyhood, can we please STOP the SPECULATION about drain holes in the door.    


No point in having seals if there are holes letting air and water out and in



Guess what?

Car doors have drainage holes in them.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 19, 2015, 01:14:04 PM

Guess what?

Car doors have drainage holes in them.
I bet you they dont link with the inside of the car.  Too draughty

Maybe drainage holes for when the car runs thru a storm and water gets between the window glass and door carcase?  They cant have that void filling up and slopping around.  Must be a further skin of waterproof membrane inside the door.


Think about it Spammy.  Holes from the outside to the interior, alongside the passengers ... and constant draughts etc ?   

Nah

Shoot the designer if they designed that ! 

Only joking about the shooting bit, but possibly a sackable offense?



Actually, it wouldn't get beyond the prototype stage.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 19, 2015, 01:25:04 PM
I bet you they dont link with the inside of the car.  Too draughty

Maybe drainage holes for when the car runs thru a storm and water gets between the window glass and door carcase?  They cant have that void filling up and slopping around.  Must be a further skin of waterproof membrane inside the door.


Think about it Spammy.  Holes from the outside to the interior, alongside the passengers ... and constant draughts etc ?   

Nah

Shoot the designer if they designed that ! 

Only joking about the shooting bit, but possibly a sackable offense?



Actually, it wouldn't get beyond the prototype stage.

Sadie, have much Physics and Chemistry have you studied ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 02:04:41 PM
Rain can leak past external window seal to inside of door.
Air can leak past internal window seal to inside of door.
Inside of door has drainholes to outside.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 02:24:29 PM
Rain can leak past external window seal to inside of door.
Air can leak past internal window seal to inside of door.
Inside of door has drainholes to outside.

If there are so many holes in vehicle doors (sounds as if they could substitute for colanders) all interior smells would be leaking through all five doors ... why did Eddie alert only to one?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 03:14:35 PM
If there are so many holes in vehicle doors (sounds as if they could substitute for colanders) all interior smells would be leaking through all five doors ... why did Eddie alert only to one?

Have a browse through here to see what a car door looks like before the pretty bits are fitted.
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=car+door+images
Not necessarily; study a bit of fluid dynamics or even basic meteorology and you will be able to answer your own question.

For details of drainage holes in car doors click on link:
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=drain+holes+in+car+doors
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 03:42:19 PM
hatch door mk1
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 03:44:24 PM
Have a browse through here to see what a car door looks like before the pretty bits are fitted.
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=car+door+images
Not necessarily; study a bit of fluid dynamics or even basic meteorology and you will be able to answer your own question.

For details of drainage holes in car doors click on link:
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=drain+holes+in+car+doors

                                                  8)--))     Absolutely riveting ...

Now where is the bit that tells us why Eddie wasn't going into paroxysms outside each door ... surely the inside of the car must have been spewing out ~ the scent of death ~ to a band playing?

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 04:16:24 PM
Holes on underside not visible from this camera angle of driver door but black line is where I would put one of them on the underside IMO, might be wrong.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
                                                  8)--))     Absolutely riveting ...

Now where is the bit that tells us why Eddie wasn't going into paroxysms outside each door ... surely the inside of the car must have been spewing out ~ the scent of death ~ to a band playing?

I have given you leads to the wherewithal to work it out for yourself so instead of sneering why don't you do just that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 04:35:27 PM
Holes on underside not visible from this camera angle of driver door but black line is where where I would put one of them on the underside IMO, might be wrong.

As always you pull out all the stops to solve a problem and looking at that illustration ... I think it remains clear that the seal insulates the inside compartment from the outside via an airtight seal on the door. The hole is not designed to evacuate into the vehicle ... I'm with Sadie when she says that = poor design.

By the way ... anyone ever driven a vehicle where the seal on the sun roof has failed?

I don't know why Eddie alerted outside the door, but I have never thought it was to anything inside the vehicle; there is no record of Keela replicating finding cellular material from the same position as Eddie.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 04:37:30 PM
I have given you leads to the wherewithal to work it out for yourself so instead of sneering why don't you do just that?

Thank you ... I have watched Levy's video with interest ... and do not feel the need to 'work anything out'.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 04:44:07 PM
Thank you ... I have watched Levy's video with interest ... and do not feel the need to 'work anything out'.

What has Levy to do with basic physics?
I presume from the last comment you haven't a clue where to start rather than "I do not feel the need to.....".
Say no more.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 04:45:13 PM
As always you pull out all the stops to solve a problem and looking at that illustration ... I think it remains clear that the seal insulates the inside compartment from the outside via an airtight seal on the door. The hole is not designed to evacuate into the vehicle ... I'm with Sadie when she says that = poor design.

By the way ... anyone ever driven a vehicle where the seal on the sun roof has failed?

I don't know why Eddie alerted outside the door, but I have never thought it was to anything inside the vehicle; there is no record of Keela replicating finding cellular material from the same position as Eddie.
The door drain holes are exterior to the door seals. Good engineering design. So the water can drain out.

ETA, Air can easily go from the seating compartment to the inside of the door.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 05:31:42 PM
The drain holes are exterior to the door seal. Good engineering design. So the water can drain out.

Exactly ... and the door seal remains watertight and therefore airtight.

During a search conducted with the VRD Morse in America ... there was no alert until Martin Grime requested an opening was cut in an airtight wrapping to allow the scent to escape.


**snip

Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper.   He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.

"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 05:37:55 PM
What has Levy to do with basic physics?
I presume from the last comment you haven't a clue where to start rather than "I do not feel the need to.....".
Say no more.


     Hmmm ... wasn't aware having an opinion on the work of VRD requires a knowledge of basic physics ... pity the 'experts' in that field can't be bothered to share expertise or maybe they are not as expert as they may pretend to be either in that or any other discipline.
                                                                8(>((
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 19, 2015, 05:39:48 PM
Exactly ... and the door seal remains watertight and therefore airtight.

During a search conducted with the VRD Morse in America ... there was no alert until Martin Grime requested an opening was cut in an airtight wrapping to allow the scent to escape.


**snip

Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper.   He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.

"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html

Door seals water tight?

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSElgsNrKe6Ty5ZhkzEthjI6qmJeCHie-eO4cuJeQ8CeIDb-a0U)

I imagine If she had kept the doors closed, it wouldn't have flooded.

Stupid woman.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 05:40:40 PM
Exactly ... and the door seal remains watertight and therefore airtight.

During a search conducted with the VRD Morse in America ... there was no alert until Martin Grime requested an opening was cut in an airtight wrapping to allow the scent to escape.


**snip

Grime said there was no response during the first search, when the car seat was sealed inside the brown paper.   He then asked officers to put a slit in the paper and move the car seat to another room.

"The second time, when the dog got close to the package, he put his nose in the package and gave a positive response," Grime said.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html
The drainholes (and the other openings like the passenger compartment ventilation intake and outlets) are the equivalent of the cut opening in the brown paper in the other case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 05:42:15 PM
Door seals water tight?

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSElgsNrKe6Ty5ZhkzEthjI6qmJeCHie-eO4cuJeQ8CeIDb-a0U)

I imagine If she had kept the doors closed, it wouldn't have flooded.

Stupid woman.

Actually, had she kept the door closed she would have been unable to open it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 05:51:48 PM
The drainholes (and the other openings like the passenger compartment ventilation intake and outlets) are the equivalent of the cut opening in the brown paper in the other case.

I don't think they are, pegasus.  The door seal does just that ... it seals the water out nor is it a ventilation source. 

As far as the ventilation intake and outlets are concerned ... the ones in my vehicle operate to best advantage when I control them from the dashboard.  So although the vehicle is not designed to be hermetically sealed ... it is not designed to allow either water or air ingress through the doors although it is designed to allow the air to be conditioned and circulated without the requirement to open the windows.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 06:05:04 PM

     Hmmm ... wasn't aware having an opinion on the work of VRD requires a knowledge of basic physics ... pity the 'experts' in that field can't be bothered to share expertise or maybe they are not as expert as they may pretend to be either in that or any other discipline.
                                                                8(>((

The discussion was how scent (airborne) can get from the inside of a car to out.
Draw a section through the car door in position in the frame and sill then see if there is a path for air inside to out or vice versa?
You really do have a poor grasp of this aspect don't you?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 19, 2015, 06:22:54 PM
Can anyone explain how this could have happened (the nearly suffocating bit, not the stupidity bit)?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2879124/New-Zealand-Couple-Close-Death-Didn-t-Know-Locked-Car.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 19, 2015, 06:24:27 PM
Ditto this.  Seeing as cars are full of holes it seems bizarre!

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/349009/woman-driver-found-dead-in-car-5-days-after-stopping-for-a-sleep
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 07:29:48 PM
Flow rates and temperature first place to look.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 19, 2015, 07:34:08 PM
Furthermore, can anyone venture a reason why Grime would make it more difficult for his dog to sniff out cadaver scent by having the doors of all the cars closed?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 07:41:09 PM
The discussion was how scent (airborne) can get from the inside of a car to out.
Draw a section through the car door in position in the frame and sill then see if there is a path for air inside to out or vice versa?
You really do have a poor grasp of this aspect don't you?

Precisely.  If the vehicle doors are as porous as you believe ... why on earth was the VRD not alerting to them all ... and why did Keela not react to the same stimulus as Eddie when in locus?

I think that makes it about the third time I have posted that ... your responses don't come close to answering ... then when do they ever?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 19, 2015, 07:42:08 PM
Unless someone can lay hands on a 2006/2007 Scenic, this one is likely to run for ever.

I have checked my VW carefully.  There are no drain holes in the door itself.  However, the door seal itself has holes in it, and these are either at the very bottom, or are placed on the outside of the seal.  Assuming water can drain into the seal from the door, that would make such water drain to the outside of the car, but only when the door is open.  When the door is closed, the seals squidge tight with nada going in/out.

I'm still sticking with the idea that it was opening the driver door that resulted in the scent around the seal.

I'll be happy to revise that if someone can show that a 2006/2007 Scenic has seals that leak even if the door is closed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 07:49:51 PM
Furthermore, can anyone venture a reason why Grime would make it more difficult for his dog to sniff out cadaver scent by having the doors of all the cars closed?

Does it pass muster as a promotional video ... VRD scents death through a car door??

Otherwise I cannot think of a single valid reason why the dog was not deployed within the vehicle.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 19, 2015, 08:19:06 PM
How long does it take a car to sink? Write down your answer then watch this https://youtu.be/UZuZgSQZJ9g?t=5m50s and throw your answer in the bin. Anyone still claiming car passenger compartments are sealed? 

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 09:08:11 PM
Precisely. If the vehicle doors are as porous as you believe ... why on earth was the VRD not alerting to them all ... and why did Keela not react to the same stimulus as Eddie when in locus?

I think that makes it about the third time I have posted that ... your responses don't come close to answering ... then when do they ever?

That was your interpretation of what I said not what I actually said.
The issue was "is a car airtight and how can airborne scent leak out". What doggies do has no bearing on that.
As for the rest it is your customary condescension.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 19, 2015, 09:09:17 PM
Furthermore, can anyone venture a reason why Grime would make it more difficult for his dog to sniff out cadaver scent by having the doors of all the cars closed?

No.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 19, 2015, 10:08:01 PM
Precisely.  If the vehicle doors are as porous as you believe ... why on earth was the VRD not alerting to them all ... and why did Keela not react to the same stimulus as Eddie when in locus?

I think that makes it about the third time I have posted that ... your responses don't come close to answering ... then when do they ever?


There is always the possibility that there were no blood deposits in the luggage compartment at the time Eddie indicated. Keela was not deployed until several hours later - and after the vehicle had been forensically examined by the PJ in a non-sterile environment.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 19, 2015, 10:15:49 PM

There is always the possibility that there were no blood deposits in the luggage compartment at the time Eddie indicated. Keela was not deployed until several hours later - and after the vehicle had been forensically examined by the PJ in a non-sterile environment.

Wonder if that was before or after they dusted for the bootprint left on the bumper.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2015, 01:26:14 AM
The floor panel is in the boot in the photo showing a box and 2 bags in the boot.
But later when Keela is checking the car, the floor panel has been removed, it is not in the video 
Did Keela examine the luggage area floor panel?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 20, 2015, 01:40:25 AM
Sadie, have much Physics and Chemistry have you studied ?

I am a qualified design engineer Stephen.


You dont need Chemistry for air and water flow.  Surely you knew that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2015, 02:03:35 AM
I don't think they are, pegasus.  The door seal does just that ... it seals the water out nor is it a ventilation source. 

As far as the ventilation intake and outlets are concerned ... the ones in my vehicle operate to best advantage when I control them from the dashboard.  So although the vehicle is not designed to be hermetically sealed ... it is not designed to allow either water or air ingress through the doors although it is designed to allow the air to be conditioned and circulated without the requirement to open the windows.
What happens when a car accidentally drives into deep water?
It fills with water and sinks in about two minutes.
I posted a video by an expert proving this, he is in a car in a lake. You can see the car fill with water.
How does the water get in?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 20, 2015, 02:05:44 AM
As I said in an earlier post:

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Car/doors.htm

Corrosion of Car Doors
Cars are equipped with drain holes designed to release channeled water runoff. Water seeps into the gap at the base of windows between glass and door panels when the car is washed and during rainstorms. As long as drain holes are kept clear and open, standing water will not accumulate. However, if drains become clogged up with dirt or other debris, water will be trapped at the base of doors to start the rusting process. (reference)  -snip-


So long as the drainage holes are outside the seal, ingressed water from rainfall etc. will drain out via the holes at the bottom of the door, without air or scent getting out from the interior. 

The massive company where I worked made car doors by the thousands, but I never worked in that department.  I walked thru many times and watched the panels being pressed.  IIRC they were assembled elsewhere.


But I did work on the design of tractor cabs and we used door and window seals there. [rather primitive ones]
It was all a long time ago and I cant claim to be an expert now.   However basic engineering principles always tend to stay in the mind.


Seals will have improved imeasurably since then.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 02:08:21 AM
The floor panel is in the boot in the photo showing a box and 2 bags in the boot.
But later when Keela is checking the car, the floor panel has been removed, it is not in the video 
Did Keela examine the luggage area floor panel?

Page 3238
Photo 26: Shot of the mat from the luggage compartment where vestige number 11 was taken from.

After the examination of the vehicle was complete the human blood specialist sniffer dog was introduced along with Martin Grime of the British police who coordinated the dog?s movements. After a few moments Mr Grime informed the team that they should collect the key and other materials from zone M or from the interior of the luggage compartment given the fact that the dog in reference had identified these materials as places where eventual blood vestiges existed. The undersigned gathered these materials placing them in paper envelopes with the following references:

10. Parts of the vehicle luggage area.
12. Vehicle ignition key.


Page 3239
Photos 29- 30: Detail of materials referred to as vestige 10 taken from the area marked by the sniffer dog and sent for analysis.


Photo 31: Detail of the key referred to as vestige no. 12.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO Keela did not examine the luggage area floor panel.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 20, 2015, 02:10:14 AM
What happens when a car accidentally drives into deep water?
It fills with water and sinks in about two minutes.
I posted a video by an expert proving this, he is in a car in a lake. You can see the car fill with water.
How does the water get in?
Plenty of space around the engine compartment, Pegasus, for water to come in

As stated before, the main body of the car has air come in via the front and go out via a rear exhaust system
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 02:22:55 AM
Deleted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2015, 02:23:30 AM
As I said in an earlier post:

http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/Car/doors.htm

Corrosion of Car Doors
Cars are equipped with drain holes designed to release channeled water runoff. Water seeps into the gap at the base of windows between glass and door panels when the car is washed and during rainstorms. As long as drain holes are kept clear and open, standing water will not accumulate. However, if drains become clogged up with dirt or other debris, water will be trapped at the base of doors to start the rusting process. (reference)  -snip-


So long as the drainage holes are outside the seal, ingressed water from rainfall etc. will drain out via the holes at the bottom of the door, without air or scent getting out from the interior. 

The massive company where I worked made car doors by the thousands, but I never worked in that department.  I walked thru many times and watched the panels being pressed.  IIRC they were assembled elsewhere.


But I did work on the design of tractor cabs and we used door and window seals there. [rather primitive ones]
It was all a long time ago and I cant claim to be an expert now.   However basic engineering principles always tend to stay in the mind.


Seals will have improved imeasurably since then.
Thankyou Sadie. But look at where the window slides into the door. Water can enter the outer window seal, air can enter the inner window seal, they are not perfect. Pull the inner window seal back, pour coffee in, and the coffee will come out the drain hole on the bottom of the door to the outside. Even if Eddie was asleep he would wake up and smell it :)

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2015, 02:35:43 AM
Thankyou Misty. I had not noticed photo 26 before. This floor panel would be next to or touching where Keela alerted in the boot. But in the Keela video the floor panel is not there. Photos 29 and 30 of the two plastic trim parts are IIRC parts which PJ kept and substituted new replacement parts back in the car?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 08:34:39 AM
Thankyou Misty. I had not noticed photo 26 before. This floor panel would be next to or touching where Keela alerted in the boot. But in the Keela video the floor panel is not there. Photos 29 and 30 of the two plastic trim parts are IIRC parts which PJ kept and substituted new replacement parts back in the car?

The Levy videos have never struck me as being kosher. I don't understand why there is no date\time stamp on videos shot for evidential purposes.

I am also at a loss as to why Anna Esse has translated one of the reports from French.

Eddie and Keela carried out the inspection of Apartment 5A on 31st July 2007.

Why was Keela brought back to 5A on 3rd August 2007?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 08:47:18 AM
Now, as to dog deployment.

' If anyone has been following this case -

"jurors found Barry Davis Jr., 34, guilty Monday in a "no body" murder trial after a little more than two hours of deliberation."

http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781

This was the Florida case in which two cadaver dogs alerted to a car "even though the seats and carpeting in the truck had been removed and the vehicle interior scrubbed clean."

http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/murder-prosecution-cadaver-dogs-find-evidence-of-human-remains-1.476920 '
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 09:30:44 AM
Now, as to dog deployment.

' If anyone has been following this case -

"jurors found Barry Davis Jr., 34, guilty Monday in a "no body" murder trial after a little more than two hours of deliberation."

http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781

This was the Florida case in which two cadaver dogs alerted to a car "even though the seats and carpeting in the truck had been removed and the vehicle interior scrubbed clean."

http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/murder-prosecution-cadaver-dogs-find-evidence-of-human-remains-1.476920 '

Makes for very interesting reading ... IMO the parallels with Madeleine McCann's case are ZERO ... but for the fact it exemplifies the importance that the indications of cadaver dogs must always be backed by evidence ... and there was evidence in spades in this case.

I think the jury may have considered more compelling evidence than the dogs when reaching a conclusion ... even the fact that he returned to the scene and took the dog from which the victim was inseparable ... various witness statements including an eye witness to the double murder ...

I think it would be safe to say that even with the dog alerts removed from the equation ... there was enough evidence to convict this man ... and no evidence from the jury room about the weight, if any, given to the dogs.


** snip
Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business.

**snip
Steward told jurors that the night of May 7, 2012, she and Davis went to Hughes’ home unannounced so Davis could collect on a drug debt. Hughes invited them into his home for dinner and margaritas, she said.
Steward told jurors she and Rhodes left to get margarita mix, only to find Hughes motionless and bleeding on the floor when they returned. Steward said Davis then grabbed Rhodes by the throat until she slipped into unconsciousness. He then bound both Hughes and Rhodes and submerged their head in a bathtub, she testified.

**snip
A cadre of people who helped Davis in some way after May 7 told investigators they feared Davis and misled law enforcement under his direction, including a group who assisted in removing Hughes’ possessions from his home. In total, authorities said they recovered more than $18,000 in Hughes’ property from Davis’ home.

Authorities also claimed Davis forged about $16,000 worth of Hughes’ checks for moving Hughes out of his house and “property maintenance.” Those funds went toward planting the seeds of a business, the prosecution said.

“He was broke,” Elmore said. “He couldn’t even turn his lights on, but here comes the future. He took Hughes’ money to build the marijuana grow room.”

**snip
Prosecutors also claimed a trail of cellphone calls and texts highlighted the truths of witness testimony and traced Davis’ actions in the days and weeks after the killings of Hughes and Rhodes as investigators attempted to close in on Davis.

Davis previously was acquitted of stealing a 2008 Corvette from Hughes following his disappearance. Jurors on Monday found Davis guilty of 15 counts of robbery, theft and fraud to attain Hughes’ possessions, including first-degree premeditated murder of Hughes and Rhodes.
http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781?page=3

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 09:44:39 AM
Makes for very interesting reading ... IMO the parallels with Madeleine McCann's case are ZERO ... but for the fact it exemplifies the importance that the indications of cadaver dogs must always be backed by evidence ... and there was evidence in spades in this case.

I think the jury may have considered more compelling evidence than the dogs when reaching a conclusion ... even the fact that he returned to the scene and took the dog from which the victim was inseparable ... various witness statements including an eye witness to the double murder ...

I think it would be safe to say that even with the dog alerts removed from the equation ... there was enough evidence to convict this man ... and no evidence from the jury room about the weight, if any, given to the dogs.


** snip
Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business.

**snip
Steward told jurors that the night of May 7, 2012, she and Davis went to Hughes’ home unannounced so Davis could collect on a drug debt. Hughes invited them into his home for dinner and margaritas, she said.
Steward told jurors she and Rhodes left to get margarita mix, only to find Hughes motionless and bleeding on the floor when they returned. Steward said Davis then grabbed Rhodes by the throat until she slipped into unconsciousness. He then bound both Hughes and Rhodes and submerged their head in a bathtub, she testified.

**snip
A cadre of people who helped Davis in some way after May 7 told investigators they feared Davis and misled law enforcement under his direction, including a group who assisted in removing Hughes’ possessions from his home. In total, authorities said they recovered more than $18,000 in Hughes’ property from Davis’ home.

Authorities also claimed Davis forged about $16,000 worth of Hughes’ checks for moving Hughes out of his house and “property maintenance.” Those funds went toward planting the seeds of a business, the prosecution said.

“He was broke,” Elmore said. “He couldn’t even turn his lights on, but here comes the future. He took Hughes’ money to build the marijuana grow room.”

**snip
Prosecutors also claimed a trail of cellphone calls and texts highlighted the truths of witness testimony and traced Davis’ actions in the days and weeks after the killings of Hughes and Rhodes as investigators attempted to close in on Davis.

Davis previously was acquitted of stealing a 2008 Corvette from Hughes following his disappearance. Jurors on Monday found Davis guilty of 15 counts of robbery, theft and fraud to attain Hughes’ possessions, including first-degree premeditated murder of Hughes and Rhodes.
http://www.newsherald.com/news/crime-public-safety/barry-davis-found-guilty-in-double-murder-of-area-couple-1.479781?page=3

Indeed.  No mention of the dogs in the main thrust of the prosecution's case (from the first article):


"Prosecutor Bobby Elmore faced what seemed like an uphill battle since the bodies of neither Hughes nor Rhodes were ever recovered.

Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 09:55:30 AM
Indeed.  No mention of the dogs in the main thrust of the prosecution's case (from the first article):


"Prosecutor Bobby Elmore faced what seemed like an uphill battle since the bodies of neither Hughes nor Rhodes were ever recovered.

Elmore used bank account records, cellphone records and the lack of contact with friends and family to argue Davis killed the couple. Many family members were present Monday for closing arguments in the trial of Davis when Elmore made a final push to convince jurors that Davis killed the couple and robbed Hughes’ home “down to the very last salt shaker” in order to have enough money to assemble a marijuana growing business".

So why were dogs used ?

There's a tough question . 8)-)))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:10:00 AM
So why were dogs used ?

There's a tough question . 8)-)))

To look for forensic evidence - did they find any?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 10:11:37 AM
To look for forensic evidence - did they find any?

The dogs indicate Alfred.

Then the forensic scientists do the analysis.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:25:16 AM
The dogs indicate Alfred.

Then the forensic scientists do the analysis.
And what forensic evidence did they find in this case that verified their alerts?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 10:35:31 AM
And what forensic evidence did they find in this case that verified their alerts?

Well, why don't you obtain the full case files and let us know ?

Now remind me again alfred, why do police forces around the world use dogs ?

and let's face it, SY used dogs in Portugal when searching the sites for 'remains'.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:44:14 AM
Well, why don't you obtain the full case files and let us know ?

Now remind me again alfred, why do police forces around the world use dogs ?

and let's face it, SY used dogs in Portugal when searching the sites for 'remains'.

My answer hasn't changed since I posted it a few minutes ago - in cases like this to look for evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 10:47:02 AM
My answer hasn't changed since I posted it a few minutes ago - in cases like this to look for evidence.

As was done in PDL.

Forensics, INCONCLUSIVE.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:50:10 AM
As was done in PDL.

Forensics, INCONCLUSIVE.
Certainly not conclusive of a dead body having ever been in situ either in the apartment or in the car, correct.  However Amaral states the dog alerts proved it.  What was he on? 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 11:04:33 AM
Certainly not conclusive of a dead body having ever been in situ either in the apartment or in the car, correct.  However Amaral states the dog alerts proved it.  What was he on?

I am fully aware of that.

We already know he misunderstood the results.

However, they haven't precluded the the possibility of a body, have they ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 11:12:44 AM
I am fully aware of that.

We already know he misunderstood the results.

However, they haven't precluded the the possibility of a body, have they ?
Less than useless then these alerts aren't they?  What they are telling us is "there may or there may not have been a body present".  Well, I could have told them that from the comfort of my armchair, having never set foot in Portugal. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 11:14:58 AM
I have taken this from a 2014 article about Cadaver Dogs -

Kip correctly identified the odours derived from decomposition and was not distracted by the “negative control” smells.  It was a successful demonstration.  But in the field, VR dogs can sometimes be distracted by “false positives”, such as dead animals, or even mushrooms, explained Lorna.  If she can arrive at a greater understanding of the chemistry of odours from human cadavers, then VR dogs can be extra efficient.


You see,  unfortunately the chemistry of odours from human cadavers still hasn't been scientifically discovered.   
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 11:20:00 AM
Here is another extract from a 2014 article,   they still use pigs -


The research could also help with the training of ‘human remains detection canines’. ‘We know very little about what compounds or combinations of compounds are recognised by sniffer dogs,’ says  Williams. ‘Understanding this helps to improve their work in the field and with training aids. However, research on pigs as analogues for humans is compromised from the start. A human taphonomy facility (where the decomposition of human remains are studied) would boost forensic research.’
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 11:50:30 AM
I have a question for anyone who can answer it.

I believe it was Martin Grime who said that a body starts to decompose immediately after death.

If that is so,   as some people have been resuscitated when they have died,   some even 20 minutes later is he saying that their bodies had started to decompose in that 20 minutes or so?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 12:19:51 PM
"Decomposition begins several minutes after death with a process called autolysis, or self-digestion. Soon after the heart stops beating, cells become deprived of oxygen, and their acidity increases as the toxic by-products of chemical reactions begin to accumulate inside them".

http://www.memorialpages.co.uk/articles/decomposition.php
http://mosaicscience.com/story/what-happens-after-you-die

That should shed a little light on the matter.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 12:27:24 PM
I have a question for anyone who can answer it.

I believe it was Martin Grime who said that a body starts to decompose immediately after death.

If that is so,   as some people have been resuscitated when they have died,   some even 20 minutes later is he saying that their bodies had started to decompose in that 20 minutes or so?

That is the first time I have seen that question posed, Lace.

It is certainly a fact that studies (no Lyall, I don't have a particular cite as I am speaking generally ... but there are plenty of abstracts printed on the internet which will give you the gist of what is going on, if you care to read them) continue to take place to determine the various rates of decomposition of bodily organs and the order in which this occurs.

I think it is generally accepted that such decomposition starts at the moment of death ... and that is also subject of debate as far as organ donation is concerned in relation to being brain dead.

Perhaps the organs of people who have 'died' and been resuscitated did actually start to decompose but were not damaged because of speedy reactivation???

That's very probably nonsense ... davel is your man for an opinion on this, I think.

Very interesting point you have made though.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on May 20, 2015, 01:04:19 PM
I have a question for anyone who can answer it.

I believe it was Martin Grime who said that a body starts to decompose immediately after death.

If that is so,   as some people have been resuscitated when they have died,   some even 20 minutes later is he saying that their bodies had started to decompose in that 20 minutes or so?

Body decomposition after death depends on the surrounding environment and especially temperature.  The hotter it is the sooner decomposition will start and the faster it will be.

When the heart stops the body will slowly start its initial transformation to rigor mortis stage. The changes are very small to begin with but after say twenty minutes at normal room temperature the body cells will begin to break down irretrievably.  Very slowly to begin with mind.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2015, 01:10:30 PM

Roughly how long to Riga Mortis?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 01:14:52 PM
Body decomposition after death depends on the surrounding environment and especially temperature.  The hotter it is the sooner decomposition will start and the faster it will be.

When the heart stops the body will slowly start its initial transformation to rigor mortis stage. The changes are very small to begin with but after say twenty minutes at normal room temperature the body cells will begin to break down irretrievably.  Very slowly to begin with mind.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

Is this what the dogs would smell though?     

In my opinion,   early stages of decomposition would not give off a scent of death,    I would imagine it would be the gasses the dog smells,   these smells are not there for a couple of hours or so.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 01:18:21 PM
What happens when a car accidentally drives into deep water?
It fills with water and sinks in about two minutes.
I posted a video by an expert proving this, he is in a car in a lake. You can see the car fill with water.
How does the water get in?

You are looking at things from the wrong perspective, having introduced both liquid & outside interference into the equation.
If I dispose of my washing machine into the canal, it will fill up with water & sink. However, if I fill the machine drum with water in the normal sense on dry land, it will not leak unless the seals are broken.
If you filled the interior of the Scenic with smoke in the car park, at what places would the smoke escape?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 01:22:34 PM
Less than useless then these alerts aren't they?  What they are telling us is "there may or there may not have been a body present".  Well, I could have told them that from the comfort of my armchair, having never set foot in Portugal.

Indications alfred, indications.

Nothing else has come to light in this case.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 01:24:25 PM
There is also this -



A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.


Present in ALL DECAYING ORGANIC MATERIAL AND IN HUMAN SALIVA.    Well,   that really widens what cadaver dogs smell doesn't it.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 01:26:09 PM
There is also this -



A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.


Present in ALL DECAYING ORGANIC MATERIAL AND IN HUMAN SALIVA.    Well,   that really widens what cadaver dogs smell doesn't it.

Do you actually know what these compounds are or where they originate ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on May 20, 2015, 01:30:07 PM
Do you actually know what these compounds are or where they originate ?

If you know, and have expertise is this area, then perhaps in the spirit of furthering knowledge in this forum, you might like to consider the approach of sharing your knowledge?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 01:32:31 PM
You are looking at things from the wrong perspective, having introduced both liquid & outside interference into the equation.
If I dispose of my washing machine into the canal, it will fill up with water & sink. However, if I fill the machine drum with water in the normal sense on dry land, it will not leak unless the seals are broken.
If you filled the interior of the Scenic with smoke in the car park, at what places would the smoke escape?

In broad terms and principle: Through any orifice of any size where the upstream pressure is higher than the downstream pressure. 

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 01:49:08 PM
from the little information that is available I think it is impossible for the scent to last for 3 months outside in the flowerbed without physical remains being present...that blows a massive hole in the alerts
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 01:54:21 PM
from the little information that is available I think it is impossible for the scent to last for 3 months outside in the flowerbed without physical remains being present...that blows a massive hole in the alerts

The conclusion is only as reliable as the basic assumption.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 01:54:41 PM
So who's going to be the first one to make a bonfire in their car to see where the smoke comes out?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 01:56:17 PM
In broad terms and principle: Through any orifice of any size where the upstream pressure is higher than the downstream pressure.

How can you equate that to cadaver odour emanating downwards through the door seal when there is no internal pressure? (genuine question as I was never great at physics)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 01:56:38 PM
There is also this -



A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.


Present in ALL DECAYING ORGANIC MATERIAL AND IN HUMAN SALIVA.    Well,   that really widens what cadaver dogs smell doesn't it.

What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 01:58:54 PM
What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.
How do you know they don't?  What did Zampo the cadaver dog in Sweden alert to 45 times in places where no human remains had ever been?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Wonderfulspam on May 20, 2015, 02:01:40 PM
So who's going to be the first one to make a bonfire in their car to see where the smoke comes out?

Ever heard of a smoke machine?


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 02:04:11 PM
What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.

What it actually said was putrescine and cadaverine has been bottled as it is useful for training cadaver dogs,  however it is also found in decaying organic material too and human saliva.

The dog is given a sign to search G unit  otherwise they would bark around cemeteries too wouldn't they?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 02:08:29 PM
Actually I can believe that about organic material,   have you ever gone away and forgot to throw flowers in a vase away?    The water smells absolutely disgusting.

The gardener would have used organic material on the garden no doubt,   probably that is why Eddie alerted to the garden.    It could even be what he alerted to inside 5a.  With people back and fro walking in the garden then inside 5a.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 02:10:42 PM
What it actually said was putrescine and cadaverine has been bottled as it is useful for training cadaver dogs,  however it is also found in decaying organic material too and human saliva.

The dog is given a sign to search G unit  otherwise they would bark around cemeteries too wouldn't they?

I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 02:17:22 PM
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.

The dogs can only identify the material they have been trained with. In Eddie's case that includes pig, human & human blood. His training with human remains was limited to the later stages in his career.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on May 20, 2015, 02:18:05 PM
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.

You are missing the part where it says that 'it is used to train cadaver dogs'.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 02:23:00 PM
Interesting;

In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 02:23:30 PM
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.
But we also know they will falsely alert, like Zampo the Swedish cadaver dog did, 45 times in a forested area. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 02:25:26 PM
You are missing the part where it says that 'it is used to train cadaver dogs'.

Not Grimes'dogs though, I think?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 03:09:32 PM
What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.

No dog is ever "off duty" at any time. They spend their lives sniffing every inch of their environment, they mark their territory and they know who has been in their territory, they introduce themselves to other dogs by sniffing and being sniffed, they introduce themselves to humans by sniffing.

They are trained to switch on and to switch off to scents which their handler has trained them to respond to as a game.  They are playing a game and they know when their handler wants them to play and when their handler doesn't want them to play.

They are not calibrated scientific instruments ... which is why their alerts can only be taken as indications ... the clincher has to be corroborating forensic evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 03:22:44 PM
Actually I can believe that about organic material,   have you ever gone away and forgot to throw flowers in a vase away?    The water smells absolutely disgusting.

The gardener would have used organic material on the garden no doubt,   probably that is why Eddie alerted to the garden.    It could even be what he alerted to inside 5a.  With people back and fro walking in the garden then inside 5a.

They didn't seem to attach a great deal of significance to wearing protective overshoes or any other kind of protective clothing.  Cross contamination could never have been ruled out.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 03:26:49 PM
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.

I don't think they do know the "true scent" ... I think they will react to any one of the components which make up the "true scent".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 03:28:38 PM
Not Grimes'dogs though, I think?

Why do you think that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 20, 2015, 03:29:28 PM
Interesting;

In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html
Thanks for posting that G-Unit. The important question is, what is the minimum PMI (postmorteminterval) which can later be detected by a dog. That carpet square experiment doesn't tell us the minimum PMI required, it just tells us that 3hrs is above that minimum (because no subjects with shorter PMI were tested).

This experiment http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html found that to produce an alert, the PMI must be at least 1hr25mins.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 03:53:47 PM
The conclusion is only as reliable as the basic assumption.

and how many on here have a clue about what the alerts really signify..There is no rael scientific  information about the reliability of the alerts yet amaral made the claim that Maddie died in the apartment and is believed by several thousand gullible people...at least I am being honest...shame amaral wasn't
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 04:01:24 PM
I am fully aware of that.

We already know he misunderstood the results.

However, they haven't precluded the the possibility of a body, have they ?

there are 1200 people donating to amaral's fund who are not aware that amaral misunderstood the results..
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2015, 04:03:20 PM
there are 1200 people donating to amaral's fund who are not aware that amaral misunderstood the results..

Many repeat donations.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 04:09:27 PM
If amaral had not resigned from the PJ....Would he have been sacked and lost his pension when he was given the criminal conviction
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 20, 2015, 04:10:50 PM
Thanks for posting that G-Unit. The important question is, what is the minimum PMI (postmorteminterval) which can later be detected by a dog. That carpet square experiment doesn't tell us the minimum PMI required, it just tells us that 3hrs is above that minimum (because no subjects with shorter PMI were tested).

This experiment http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html found that to produce an alert, the PMI must be at least 1hr25mins.

That study appears to be limited.

- There is no indication, based on that, as to how long a scent would remain discernible when open to the air  (and not in sealed bags) in an apartment rented out and no doubt aired by numerous people.

- Eddie didn't inspect that apartment until months later.

- What absorbent material did Eddie react to (carefully sealed or not), either in that apartment or in the car?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Admin on May 20, 2015, 04:22:43 PM
If amaral had not resigned from the PJ....Would he have been sacked and lost his pension when he was given the criminal conviction

Was it a case of jump or be shoved?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 04:24:40 PM
Was it a case of jump or be shoved?

looks like it...perhaps that was the REAL reason he retired early.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Admin on May 20, 2015, 04:28:36 PM
looks like it...perhaps that was the REAL reason he retired early.

The Policia Judicial had been attempting to clean up their act when this all came upon them in 2007.  Mr Amaral might very well have retained his post had it been down to the powers that be in Faro/Portimao but once Lisbon got involved it was game over.  For him it was an unfortunate set of circumstances which came together at the most inopportune time.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Admin on May 20, 2015, 04:38:34 PM
there are 1200 people donating to amaral's fund who are not aware that amaral misunderstood the results..

Does anyone?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 04:40:11 PM
The Policia Judicial had been attempting to clean up their act when this all came upon them in 2007.  Mr Amaral might very well have retained his post had it been down to the powers that be in Faro/Portimao but once Lisbon got involved it was game over.  For him it was an unfortunate set of circumstances which came together at the most inopportune time.

I've always been of the opinion he was way out of his depth in being tasked with the investigation in the first place; being made an arguido the following day compounded that.
I think the powers that be should have drafted in officers with some experience of dealing with child protection issues.  In the wake of Casa Pia ... surely there must have been some.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 04:41:06 PM
Does anyone?

does Grime
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 05:05:00 PM
does Grime
Of course he does, what a silly question!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 05:09:38 PM
Of course he does, what a silly question!

grime says the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent...so he doesn't know for certain....yet posters on here and elsewhere think they know...deluded
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 05:17:19 PM
from the little information that is available I think it is impossible for the scent to last for 3 months outside in the flowerbed without physical remains being present...that blows a massive hole in the alerts

Thirty-odd years;

Police on Thursday revived their search for Etan Patz, a 6-year-old who disappeared in 1979 en route to a New York City bus stop, after a cadaver-sniffing dog recently detected the odor of human remains in a basement near Patz’s SoHo home.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/04/etan_patz_search_renewed_can_cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 05:24:08 PM
grime says the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent...so he doesn't know for certain....yet posters on here and elsewhere think they know...deluded

Exactly. The dog alerts suggest cadaver scent because that is what the dog was trained to alert to, what he alerted to in actual case searches. Mr Grime does not suggest anything else, therefore it is a given that he is pretty sure. He did also say it is in his "professional opinion" (that should give you an extra clue).

Whether posters make a small, medium or a giant leap to any ideas or conclusions is by the by. But please don't suggest the dog handler doesn't know what he is talking about.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 05:30:52 PM
Exactly. The dog alerts suggest cadaver scent because that is what the dog was trained to alert to, what he alerted to in actual case searches. Mr Grime does not suggest anything else, therefore it is a given that he is pretty sure. He did also say it is in his "professional opinion" (that should give you an extra clue).

Whether posters make a small, medium or a giant leap to any ideas or conclusions is by the by. But please don't suggest the dog handler doesn't know what he is talking about.

Why would Grime have deemed it unnecessary to deploy Eddie INSIDE a vehicle to which he had just positively alerted?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 05:34:41 PM
Why would Grime have deemed it unnecessary to deploy Eddie INSIDE a vehicle to which he had just positively alerted?

If Eddie alerted then Keela was used. If Keela alerted then blood was present. If Keela did not alert; cadaver.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 05:38:06 PM
If Eddie alerted then Keela was used. If Keela alerted then blood was present. If Keela did not alert; cadaver.

so according to that it was blood...we now know Gerry's .....so no cadaver in the car
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 05:42:43 PM
grime says the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent...so he doesn't know for certain....yet posters on here and elsewhere think they know...deluded

Inconclusive forensics.

So it is more than a possibility a cadaver was present.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 05:43:42 PM
If Eddie alerted then Keela was used. If Keela alerted then blood was present. If Keela did not alert; cadaver.

Eddie only alerted outside the vehicle, albeit at the door seal. How could Grime be positive the odour was coming from inside rather than something on the outside?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 05:46:50 PM
Inconclusive forensics.

So it is more than a possibility a cadaver was present.
More than a possibility?!  How so?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 05:50:21 PM
Eddie only alerted outside the vehicle, albeit at the door seal. How could Grime be positive the odour was coming from inside rather than something on the outside?

Experience? I don't know because he didn't say.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 05:52:13 PM
Thirty-odd years;

Police on Thursday revived their search for Etan Patz, a 6-year-old who disappeared in 1979 en route to a New York City bus stop, after a cadaver-sniffing dog recently detected the odor of human remains in a basement near Patz’s SoHo home.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/04/etan_patz_search_renewed_can_cadaver_dogs_smell_30_year_old_corpses_.html

if you read the whole article it says later..
single human vertebra, more than 30 years old, was buried 12 inches deep...so where remains, remain...yes...but there is no reliable information on how long the scent of death lasts..

We could ask our resident expert in chemistry perhaps...

With dilution through airflow it would be surprising if a single molecule of a gas would remain


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 05:53:45 PM
Inconclusive forensics.

So it is more than a possibility a cadaver was present.

not more than a possibility...just a possibility
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 05:57:44 PM
Why would Grime have deemed it unnecessary to deploy Eddie INSIDE a vehicle to which he had just positively alerted?

GUnit has answered this Misty. (Thank you GU). I would add that the space inside a car is relatively small, in fact too small to differentiate between one area and another.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 05:59:16 PM
Experience? I don't know because he didn't say.

So why wasn't Keela deployed to inspect the point at which Eddie indicated, ie, the outside of the vehicle? There was no evidence Eddie was not indicating to blood on the exterior of the vehicle at that stage.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 06:00:32 PM
GUnit has answered this Misty. (Thank you GU). I would add that the space inside a car is relatively small, in fact too small to differentiate between one area and another.

So why did Eddie have to be put inside the wardrobe in 5a before he indicated?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 06:05:59 PM
GUnit has answered this Misty. (Thank you GU). I would add that the space inside a car is relatively small, in fact too small to differentiate between one area and another.

so again we have no confirmation of cadaver in the car
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 06:07:25 PM
Eddie only alerted outside the vehicle, albeit at the door seal. How could Grime be positive the odour was coming from inside rather than something on the outside?
An alert on the outside of the car would have been easier to film than an alert on the inside of the car... ?>)()<
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 06:08:57 PM
not more than a possibility...just a possibility

and absolutely no evidence of abduction. 8((()*/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 06:11:58 PM
so according to that it was blood...we now know Gerry's .....so no cadaver in the car

Do we really "know"? Did the FSS report state categorically it was Gerry's blood? Did Gerry ever mention that he had shed blood in his car? Just  playing devil's advocate.

PS You are also assuming that because both dogs alert at the same place it means "blood". That's not necessarily a given.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 06:12:46 PM
and absolutely no evidence of abduction. 8((()*/

none that you understand
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 06:14:34 PM
Do we really "know"? Did the FSS report state categorically it was Gerry's blood? Did Gerry ever mention that he had shed blood in his car? Just  playing devil's advocate.

PS You are also assuming that because both dogs alert at the same place it means "blood". That's not necessarily a given.
What does it mean then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 06:22:08 PM
So why did Eddie have to be put inside the wardrobe in 5a before he indicated?

I don' think there is any mystery here. Eddie will hone in eventually to the source of the scent he is looking for. He ran around the whole bedroom trying to find it. He settled in an area near the wardrobe. It could have been the bed nearest the wardrobe, not necessarily the wardrobe, although it could have been. The point is he settled in an area near there outwith a large room at least three times a car area.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 06:23:02 PM
Do we really "know"? Did the FSS report state categorically it was Gerry's blood? Did Gerry ever mention that he had shed blood in his car? Just  playing devil's advocate.

PS You are also assuming that because both dogs alert at the same place it means "blood". That's not necessarily a given.


Keela detects only blood. Forensic science is not so exact, so the FSS couldn't say what it was, but it contained DNA. There could have been blood and cadaver odour in the car, but we don't know.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 06:25:22 PM
Do we really "know"? Did the FSS report state categorically it was Gerry's blood? Did Gerry ever mention that he had shed blood in his car? Just  playing devil's advocate.

PS You are also assuming that because both dogs alert at the same place it means "blood". That's not necessarily a given.

How quickly would the odour from the blood on the key have dissipated from the closed car  into the surrounding area, & up to 10m away & still be scented by Eddie?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 06:25:58 PM
so again we have no confirmation of cadaver in the car

There is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour. If there were, there wouldn't be hundreds of posts arguing the toss (excuse my French). You see, science hasn't yet caught up with cadaver dog capabilities.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 06:29:14 PM
I don' think there is any mystery here. Eddie will hone in eventually to the source of the scent he is looking for. He ran around the whole bedroom trying to find it. He settled in an area near the wardrobe. It could have been the bed nearest the wardrobe, not necessarily the wardrobe, although it could have been. The point is he settled in an area near there outwith a large room at least three times a car area.
Grime was quite specific that Eddie was indicating to the wardrobe. What you are suggesting is that there could have been blood on the carpet....or the bed...or the bedcovers....none of which were forensically tested....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 06:42:35 PM
and how many on here have a clue about what the alerts really signify..There is no rael scientific  information about the reliability of the alerts yet amaral made the claim that Maddie died in the apartment and is believed by several thousand gullible people...at least I am being honest...shame amaral wasn't
I was referring to your conclusion.

You posted:

from the little information that is available I think it is impossible for the scent to last for 3 months outside in the flowerbed without physical remains being present...that blows a massive hole in the alerts.
Your conclusion is: that blows a massive hole in the alerts. based on your assumption prefaced with  I think.

Maybe you should read some of the papers on the use of dogs in looking for MIAs in Vietnam 25 years plus after the event.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 06:43:54 PM
I wish there was a multiquote function here.

@Alfred, all it means is that there is a possibility both scents are found in the same place

@GUnit, I was referring to the FSS results not being 100% definite that they found Gerry's DNA, whether it came from blood or shed skin cells, etc. This is in the context of many posters stating it as a fact whilst at the same time insisting Madeleine Mccanns DNA was not found, (in other samples) when both results were not conclusive and both samples contained DNA markers from them both.

@Misty, there is no point asking me about the intricacies of blood odour dispersal and timelines, I don't know.

@Misty, no, I am not suggesting there could have been blood in the carpet or bedcovers,  and Eddie alerted to that, for the simple reason that if there were, Keela will have indicated there, but she did not. (Remember Mr Grime sayng, "if there is blood there, she will find it")

I am cooking and posting at the same time. NOT a good idea, so need to go for a wee bit. Fascinating subject though.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 06:55:07 PM
none that you understand

Well provide  evidence that can be backed up.

Surely you can do that.

P.S. People standing in a street looking at a building  isn't evidence of abduction.

it's mere desperation.

Since with no abduction................................
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 07:01:12 PM
I wish there was a multiquote function here.

@Alfred, all it means is that there is a possibility both scents are found in the same place

@GUnit, I was referring to the FSS results not being 100% definite that they found Gerry's DNA, whether it came from blood or shed skin cells, etc. This is in the context of many posters stating it as a fact whilst at the same time insisting Madeleine Mccanns DNA was not found, (in other samples) when both results were not conclusive and both samples contained DNA markers from them both.

@Misty, there is no point asking me about the intricacies of blood odour dispersal and timelines, I don't know.

@Misty, no, I am not suggesting there could have been blood in the carpet or bedcovers,  and Eddie alerted to that, for the simple reason that if there were, Keela will have indicated there, but she did not. (Remember Mr Grime sayng, "if there is blood there, she will find it")

I am cooking and posting at the same time. NOT a good idea, so need to go for a wee bit. Fascinating subject though.

RE: your answer to me above  - if both dogs alert to the same spot and it could mean either blood or cadaver and blood then what is the point of deploying two dogs in cases like this?  Why not simply use Eddie and dispense with Keela's services altogether?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 07:18:14 PM
Do we really "know"? Did the FSS report state categorically it was Gerry's blood? Did Gerry ever mention that he had shed blood in his car? Just  playing devil's advocate.

PS You are also assuming that because both dogs alert at the same place it means "blood". That's not necessarily a given.

The FSS said;

A low level incomplete DNA profile which matched the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material on the key card (286C/2007-CRL(12)). This sample has not been sent for further testing using LCN DNA profiling tests.

I don't know why they didn't test further.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 20, 2015, 07:27:00 PM
I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 07:34:09 PM
RE: your answer to me above  - if both dogs alert to the same spot and it could mean either blood or cadaver and blood then what is the point of deploying two dogs in cases like this?  Why not simply use Eddie and dispense with Keela's services altogether?

Eddie says 'there's something here!' Keela says 'one of the things here is blood!'
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 07:34:40 PM
I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

He detected cadaver odour like he was trained to find.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 07:43:01 PM
RE: your answer to me above  - if both dogs alert to the same spot and it could mean either blood or cadaver and blood then what is the point of deploying two dogs in cases like this?  Why not simply use Eddie and dispense with Keela's services altogether?

Why wouldn't there be a point? Eddie is used to find indications of a death. It really is that simple. Keela is used to find minute forensic traces as back up. There is no need to labour this to kingdom come.

PS, well said GUnit, I didn't see your post, ha!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 07:46:51 PM
I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

No we do not, but we have a good idea, and that is as far as the cadaver dog alerts go as their capabilities can't be as yet matched by "science".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 20, 2015, 07:47:13 PM
I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

Scientists cannot list the components of the 'scent of death', true.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 07:47:25 PM
How can you equate that to cadaver odour emanating downwards through the door seal when there is no internal pressure? (genuine question as I was never great at physics)
You need to understand pressure and basic fluid dynamics.
You need to remove words like Amaral Grime Eddie Keela McCann Praia da Luz and Renault Scenic from the equation. They have b****r all to do with the principles which were figured out by guys, in the 17th and 18th centuries, like Boyle,Charles & the Bernoulli clan.
So this could apply to any old metal box in a seaside town near you.
Pressure moves from high to low. Put a hole in your car tyre wherever you like and the air will come out moving from high pressure in the tyre to low pressure outside. Stick in as many holes as you like anywhere you like in the tyre, they will leak air. Consider you have done it on the rig KwikFit use to fit tyres so it is horizontal and the car weight is not a distraction. Ultimately the air will leak out up down and sideways until there insufficient pressure to shove anymore out through the holes. If the holes are big enough the pressure will balance to equal inside and outside ie atmospheric pressure.
If you have parked your tin box by the beach huts at Brightlingsea in full sun, to start with the pressure in the box and the pressure outside are the same ie about 1013 mbar. If the temperature inside the box increases due to exposure to direct sun the volume of air inside will increase; if restrained in any way it will cause an increase in pressure until it is sufficient to flow out through a path to a low pressure area. Note that when the temperature outside is only about 25C the temperature inside can reach 60C plus in direct sun. See nice little graphic in the link below explaining absolute temperature and volume
If a draught blows along the tin box it will create areas of high and low pressure where the pressure outside the tin box on a micro level can be below that inside the tin box. This is basically a venturi effect.
Broadly speaking that is how it works; I am not saying in the case in point it did happen but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. It would scarcely be possible to determine as it would be necessary to recreate precisely all the conditions that obtained at the time so the debate could go on forever.
If you want to say its blx don't tell me get a medium and tell the guys above they got it wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles%27s_law

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 07:50:24 PM
He detected cadaver odour like he was trained to find.

cadaver odour has not been confirmed by grime
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 07:52:41 PM
cadaver odour has not been confirmed by grime

It has been by Scotland Yard. They used cadaver dogs last year.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 07:58:57 PM
Why wouldn't there be a point? Eddie is used to find indications of a death. It really is that simple. Keela is used to find minute forensic traces as back up. There is no need to labour this to kingdom come.

PS, well said GUnit, I didn't see your post, ha!

The problem here is that the forensics Keela found, backing up Eddie's alerts, do not match the DNA of the cadaver the PJ expected to find evidence of.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 07:59:24 PM
You need to understand pressure and basic fluid dynamics.
You need to remove words like Amaral Grime Eddie Keela McCann Praia da Luz and Renault Scenic from the equation. They have b****r all to do with the principles which were figured out by guys, in the 17th and 18th centuries, like Boyle,Charles & the Bernoulli clan.
So this could apply to any old metal box in a seaside town near you.
Pressure moves from high to low. Put a hole in your car tyre wherever you like and the air will come out moving from high pressure in the tyre to low pressure outside. Stick in as many holes as you like anywhere you like in the tyre, they will leak air. Consider you have done it on the rig KwikFit use to fit tyres so it is horizontal and the car weight is not a distraction. Ultimately the air will leak out up down and sideways until there insufficient pressure to shove anymore out through the holes. If the holes are big enough the pressure will balance to equal inside and outside ie atmospheric pressure.
If you have parked your tin box by the beach huts at Brightlingsea in full sun, to start with the pressure in the box and the pressure outside are the same ie about 1013 mbar. If the temperature inside the box increases due to exposure to direct sun the volume of air inside will increase; if restrained in any way it will cause an increase in pressure until it is sufficient to flow out through a path to a low pressure area. Note that when the temperature outside is only about 25C the temperature inside can reach 60C plus in direct sun. See nice little graphic in the link below explaining absolute temperature and volume
If a draught blows along the tin box it will create areas of high and low pressure where the pressure outside the tin box on a micro level can be below that inside the tin box. This is basically a venturi effect.
Broadly speaking that is how it works; I am not saying in the case in point it did happen but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. It would scarcely be possible to determine as it would be necessary to recreate precisely all the conditions that obtained at the time so the debate could go on forever.
If you want to say its blx don't tell me get a medium and tell the guys above they got it wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles%27s_law

Trying to sound clever but we are not talking fluids...we are talking gases...the dogs are detecting gases not fluids or solids as none were found. Any gases would have dissipated from the car...and the flower bed and possibly the apartment due to Brownian motion which would create constant dilution.

there is no concrete evidence that the dog's detected a cadaver...as Grime pointed out there are several scenarios that could have produced the contamination
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 07:59:37 PM
cadaver odour has not been confirmed by grime

I already said to you a few posts back, there is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour, especially in cases where remnant cadaver scent are concerned, without a body, so why are you bringing this argument forward again?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 08:02:10 PM
I already said to you a few posts back, there is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour, especially in cases where remnant cadVer scent are concerned, without a body, so why are you bringing this argument forward again?
If there are no confirmations of cadaver scent then how can anyone claim eddie has never been wrong
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 08:08:37 PM
I already said to you a few posts back, there is no such thing as "confirmation" of cadaver odour, especially in cases where remnant cadaver scent are concerned, without a body, so why are you bringing this argument forward again?

just to correct you yet again......

Intestinal anaerobic bacteria transform haemoglobin into sulfhemoglobin and other colored pigments.

So the presence of minute traces of sulfhaemoglobin would confirm the cadavrine contamination...100%
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 08:14:03 PM
If there are no confirmations of cadaver scent then how can anyone claim eddie has never been wrong

Because he wasn't?
In training there is no doubt about any alert as the matter is there
In operational cases, Mr Grime says he has not been distracted by various factors such as road kill, bacon sandwhiches, etc
The point is, this dog was highly trained to the scent of dead carcasses, and that is what he will have smelt and alerted to, with some small provisos

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 08:16:23 PM
Because he wasn't?
In training there is no doubt about any alert as the matter is there
In operational cases, Mr Grime says he has not been distracted by various factors such as road kill, bacon sandwhiches, etc
The point is, this dog was highly trained to the scent of dead carcasses, and that is what he will have smelt

And the scent of Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the car.

Could detect a scent on clothing in the gym; but no scent on the same clothing in the villa.

Most strange.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 08:17:46 PM
And the scent of Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the car.

Could detect a scent on clothing in the gym; but no scent on the same clothing in the villa.

Most strange.

It hasn'tbeen established it was Gerry's blood and secondly, it's only a possibility.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 08:18:27 PM
Because he wasn't?
In training there is no doubt about any alert as the matter is there
In operational cases, Mr Grime says he has not been distracted by various factors such as road kill, bacon sandwhiches, etc
The point is, this dog was highly trained to the scent of dead carcasses, and that is what he will have smelt and alerted to, with some small provisos

I'm glad you admit that it is a lie that in 200 cases eddie has never been wrong...a complete lie...so was there abody in 5a..do we know....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 08:21:37 PM
It hasn'tbeen established it was Gerry's blood and secondly, it's only a possibility, keep up

The substance matched Gerry's DNA (I'll grant, not identified as blood).

But if it wasn't blood, then Keela must have alerted falsely, because she is not trained to react to anything else.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 08:21:59 PM
I'm glad you admit that it is a lie that in 200 cases eddie has never been wrong...a complete lie...so was there abody in 5a..do we know....

You don't get to be the highest paid dog in Britain for getting it wrong.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 08:22:23 PM
Let's get back to the topic.

Even if a hundred posters go into the annals and intricacies of cadaver dog history, Amaral  and his team ( or the other way around) was given x y z information at the time and came to a theory/conclusion....that's that and what happened at the time...it really wasn't their problem
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 08:24:27 PM
Let's get back to the topic.

Even if a hundred posters go into the annals and intricacies of cadaver dog history, Amaral  and his team ( or the other way around) was given x y z information at the time and came to a theory/conclusion....that's that and what happened at the time...it really wasn't their problem

That may have been what happened at the time ...but by the time amaral wrote his book Grime had said the alerts had no evidential reliability...amaral continued with his lies
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 08:25:26 PM
You don't get to be the highest paid dog in Britain for getting it wrong.

Maybe, a touch of hyperbole in reporting, there.

There is an FOI answer somewhere that gives the breakdown of costs of hiring Eddie, and it's nothing like the amounts touted in the press.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 08:30:58 PM
I'm glad you admit that it is a lie that in 200 cases eddie has never been wrong...a complete lie...so was there abody in 5a..do we know....

What is your problem exactly Dave? Why do you feel the need to put words into peoples mouths and also misconstrue what they have posted? I don't recall anyone asking me to admit anything for starters. And to finish because you are being tiresome, a) where is the "lie" in the fact that Eddie has never been wrong in 200 case searches and b) no one knows if there was a body in 5a or not. If they suggest they do they are being dishonest although it is totally acceptable also to believe there is no possibility (for reasons other than the dog alerts).End of, period. If you have trouble comprehending, do give me anither shout, I'm always willing to educate where I can. It's my day off work and was looking forward to posting, please don't spoil it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 08:35:31 PM
That may have been what happened at the time ...but by the time amaral wrote his book Grime had said the alerts had no evidential reliability...amaral continued with his lies

Mr Grime submitted his report in August 2007. Whilst Mr Amaral was still on the case. Nothing to do with the book or when it was published and the reasons. Steady on chap.Get your brainwaves into order.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 08:38:29 PM
What is your problem exactly Dave? Why do you feel the need to put words into peoples mouths and also misconstrue what they have posted? I don't recall anyone asking me to admit anything for starters. And to finish because you are being tiresome, a) where is the "lie" in the fact that Eddie has never been wrong in 200 case searches and b) no one knows if there was a body in 5a or not. If they suggest they do they are being dishonest although it is totally acceptable also to believe there is no possibility (for reasons other than the dog alerts).End of, period. If you have trouble comprehending, do give me anither shout, I'm always willing to educate where I can. It's my day off work and was looking forward to posting, please don't spoil it.

it has been claimed on here and elsewhere that eddie has never been wrong in 200 cases...that's a lie

Amaral has not suggested there was  a  body in 5a he has stated it as a fact...that's another lie

if you think you can educate me you are deluded

If you post expect to be challenged by those who don't agree with you
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 20, 2015, 08:40:35 PM
removed

Much is made of the training & achievements of the dogs, but little attention is paid to the handler's own training in the various relevant areas.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 08:40:44 PM
Mr Grime submitted his report in August 2007. Whilst Mr Amaral was still on the case. Nothing to do with the book or when it was published and the reasons. Steady on chap.Get your brainwaves into order.

so why didn't amaral reflect the truth in what Grime said.....the thread is about amaral misrepresenting what the alerts signified
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 08:40:48 PM
removed

Friday 23 April 2004
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/local-stories/wuff-justice-doggy-sleuths-on-the-trail-of-murder-victims-1-2543216
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 08:42:44 PM
Mr Grime submitted his report in August 2007. Whilst Mr Amaral was still on the case. Nothing to do with the book or when it was published and the reasons. Steady on chap.Get your brainwaves into order.

this is what amaral said in his book...this is what his deluded followers believe

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 08:45:37 PM
I take it we have established that we don't know what, scientifically, the prime suspect AKA Eddie, was smelling?

Got it in one, Shining ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 20, 2015, 08:53:25 PM
it has been claimed on here and elsewhere that eddie has never been wrong in 200 cases...that's a lie

Amaral has not suggested there was  a  body in 5a he has stated it as a fact...that's another lie

if you think you can educate me you are deluded

If you post expect to be challenged by those who don't agree with you

Well you said it dave.

It's too late to educate you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 08:59:11 PM
this is what amaral said in his book...this is what his deluded followers believe

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)

That would be the logical conclusion. If a murder had just happened and you rounded up people seen on the street nearby and brought a cadaver dog in and it barked at one you would conclude that he was probably the murderer.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 08:59:59 PM
That would be the logical conclusion. If a murder had just happened and you rounded up people seen on the street nearby and brought a cadaver dog in and it barked at one you would conclude that he was probably the murderer.

no
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 09:00:57 PM
That would be the logical conclusion. If a murder had just happened and you rounded up people seen on the street nearby and brought a cadaver dog in and it barked at one you would conclude that he was probably the murderer.

Well, you might ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 09:02:14 PM
That would be the logical conclusion. If a murder had just happened and you rounded up people seen on the street nearby and brought a cadaver dog in and it barked at one you would conclude that he was probably the murderer.

would you be prepared to beat a confession out of him
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 09:03:13 PM
no

YES unless he worked in a morgue with dead people. To have that odour alerted by the dog he would be arrested on suspicion of murder.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 09:05:01 PM
Why wouldn't there be a point? Eddie is used to find indications of a death. It really is that simple. Keela is used to find minute forensic traces as back up. There is no need to labour this to kingdom come.

PS, well said GUnit, I didn't see your post, ha!
I'm sorry but I'm not seeing how Keela isn't completely superfluous if what you're saying is correct.  Eddie alerts to a spot, humans do a forensic sweep.  Why bother with Keela in such a scenario?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 20, 2015, 09:08:58 PM
Maybe, a touch of hyperbole in reporting, there.

There is an FOI answer somewhere that gives the breakdown of costs of hiring Eddie, and it's nothing like the amounts touted in the press.

We have discussed the situation on many occasions on the forum and the situation regarding the deployment and the payment exceeding the Chief Constables salary debunked every time.

DCI posted ...

Grime claims that in a 6 year period in Britain, Eddie was deployed over 200 times.

This disclosure under Freedom of Information (FOI) indicates just 37 deployments in the 5 year period 2003-2007.

Either Eddie must have had one very busy year or Grime has got his sums wrong.
 
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20090062
 
Some States in America use human cadavers to train cadaver dogs on what are known as ‘body farms’. Grime claims that Eddie has been trained on such a farm in the States.

An FOI answer to a question I have submitted cited parts of a Personal Development review for the Year 2005-6 when it was stated that Eddie (then aged 5 or 6, and close to retirement) had been to the States for that training. The cited justification was, not that it would improve Eddie’s performance, but that it would “generate some income potential”.
 
Until his last day of service, the daily cost of hiring Eddie was just £10. And no documentation confirming this apparent trip was ever received by SYP.
 
Still, Grime describes both Eddie and Keela as the only “assets” (as he describes them) of their type in the world. Clearly Eddie’s apparent training on a body farm in America wouldn't make him that, because many dogs in America are trained the same, so what would?
Whatever it is, perhaps that is why there are no references to the “Enhanced” Victim Recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime?
 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1626.20;wap2
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 09:10:37 PM
YES unless he worked in a morgue with dead people. To have that odour alerted by the dog he would be arrested on suspicion of murder.

what about if he had sat next to someone who worked in a morgue for 30 mins on the train...never mind he confessed after the torture
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 09:22:03 PM
what about if he had sat next to someone who worked in a morgue for 30 mins on the train...never mind he confessed after the torture

What if he told you a load of BS. You think they're gonna let him leave? It's ok our cadaver dog alerted to you but you can go  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 20, 2015, 09:25:27 PM
What if he told you a load of BS. You think they're gonna let him leave? It's ok our cadaver dog alerted to you but you can go  @)(++(*

as I said...beat the truth out of him..

The drug dog alerted to me at Sydney Airport...they told me I could go
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 20, 2015, 09:29:29 PM
this is what amaral said in his book...this is what his deluded followers believe

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)

Probably a mistranslation.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 20, 2015, 09:50:59 PM
Probably a mistranslation.  8(0(*

Traslation of: "Conclui-se, então, que aquele odor de cadáver só poderia ser proveniente de uma pessoa: Madeleine McCann"

"It was then concluded that the cadaver odour could only come from one person: Madeleine McCann."

Any police force would come to the same conclusion.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 09:54:23 PM
Traslation of: "Conclui-se, então, que aquele odor de cadáver só poderia ser proveniente de uma pessoa: Madeleine McCann"

"It was then concluded that the cadaver odour could only come from one person: Madeleine McCann."

Any police force would come to the same conclusion.

Except that those representatives of British police forces, present in PdL, didn't.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 20, 2015, 10:06:46 PM
Except that those representatives of British police forces, present in PdL, didn't.

What would your "logical" conclusion be? I'm sure that if the dogs had alerted to all things concerned with Robert Murat, you would not criticise them or their trainer in any way.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 20, 2015, 10:16:14 PM
Trying to sound clever but we are not talking fluids...we are talking gases...the dogs are detecting gases not fluids or solids as none were found. Any gases would have dissipated from the car...and the flower bed and possibly the apartment due to Brownian motion which would create constant dilution.

there is no concrete evidence that the dog's detected a cadaver...as Grime pointed out there are several scenarios that could have produced the contamination

Where were you taught a gas is not a fluid?

fluid
ˈfluːɪd/
noun
noun: fluid; plural noun: fluids
    1.
    a substance that has no fixed shape and yields easily to external pressure; a gas or (especially) a liquid.


In physics, a fluid is a substance that continually deforms (flows) under an applied shear stress. Fluids are a subset of the phases of matter and include liquids, gases, plasmas and, to some extent, plastic solids.

Or you could check out in Fluid Dynamics by J.D Francis who was Professor at ICL

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 10:35:25 PM
this is what amaral said in his book...this is what his deluded followers believe

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)

You seem to be continually shifting the goalposts, is there any particular reason why anyone after debating with youand with whom you disagree should even bother to keep up with said shenanigans?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 10:40:19 PM
I'm sorry but I'm not seeing how Keela isn't completely superfluous if what you're saying is correct.  Eddie alerts to a spot, humans do a forensic sweep.  Why bother with Keela in such a scenario?

That is the point, Eddie does not alert to a specific spot, cadaver scent does not settle in a minute specific place like blood does
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:44:59 PM
That is the point, Eddie does not alert to a specific spot, cadaver scent does not settle in a minute specific place like blood does
So Eddie did not alert to cuddlecat or behind the sofa or to the flowerbed (which incidentally was never dug up)...? &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 10:51:17 PM
Probably a mistranslation.  8(0(*

No no no, a book written in Portuguese,translated into French and then retranslated into English could never be mistranslated,steady on!

 ?>)()<
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 10:52:25 PM
So Eddie did not alert to cuddlecat or behind the sofa or to the flowerbed (which incidentally was never dug up)...? &%+((£
None were specific spots but if you want to  annalise specific spots be my guest
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 10:53:59 PM
None were specific spots
Cuddlecat wasn't specific enough, so Keela gets called in to sniff the toy to find the cadaver fluids?  If you say so!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 10:59:17 PM
Cuddlecat wasn't specific enough, so Keela gets called in to sniff the toy to find the cadaver fluids?  If you say so!

It may have been. We have no record of Keela vis a vis  scenting the toy.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 11:03:03 PM
What would your "logical" conclusion be? I'm sure that if the dogs had alerted to all things concerned with Robert Murat, you would not criticise them or their trainer in any way.

I have long thought Robert Murat an innocent and wronged man.

So I'm not quite sure what your point is?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 11:04:12 PM
It may have been. We have no record of Keela vis a vis  scenting the toy.
Personally I think the idea of a mutt pinpointing the precise location of a speck of blood on a cuddly toy is utterly ludicrous but that's probably just me.  How does it do it?  Point to the exact spot with its nose?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 20, 2015, 11:07:52 PM
Personally I think the idea of a mutt pinpointing the precise location of a speck of blood on a cuddly toy is utterly ludicrous but that's probably just me.  How does it do it?  Point to the exact spot with its nose?

Again, finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on the toy would be no big deal.

Plenty of innocent explanations of how it might have got there ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:12:32 PM
Personally I think the idea of a mutt pinpointing the precise location of a speck of blood on a cuddly toy is utterly ludicrous but that's probably just me.  How does it do it?  Point to the exact spot with its nose?

Well, yes. Thats exactly how Keela does it
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 11:14:43 PM
Well, yes. Thats exactly how Keela does it
So where on cuddlecat did Keela point her nose?  And if her nose was not called in to operation on the toy please explain why not?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:15:32 PM
Again, finding minute traces of Madeleine's blood on the toy would be no big deal.

Plenty of innocent explanations of how it might have got there ...

Of course, which is why Eddie was brought in, to find an indicator of death, whether Keela alerted or not ,because after all, you can have a death  with no blood
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:19:47 PM
So where on cuddlecat did Keela point her nose?  And if her nose was not called in to operation on the toy please explain why not?

Are you Dave no 2? Forgetting my previous replies? I already said we have no record of Keela inspecting the toy but if she did, then yes, she would hone her nose into the exact spot where blood was. With a toy it might not be that specific to a c m , depends how silly you want to get
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2015, 11:23:34 PM
Are you Dave no 2? Forgetting my previous replies? I already said we have no record of Keela inspecting the toy but if she did, then yes, she would hone her nose into the exact spot where blood was. With a toy it might not be that specific to a c m , depends how silly you want to get

What would she do if it was on the underside?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 20, 2015, 11:27:27 PM
Are you Dave no 2? Forgetting my previous replies? I already said we have no record of Keela inspecting the toy but if she did, then yes, she would hone her nose into the exact spot where blood was. With a toy it might not be that specific to a c m , depends how silly you want to get
Are you planning to insult me in every reply you make to me? 

Any reason why Keela would not have been asked to sniff out traces of blood or cadaver juice on the toy? 

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:28:18 PM
What would she do if it was on the underside?
If there is blood there Keela will find it... (Source: Mr Grime, SY police dog handler)

Topside or other
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:33:44 PM
Are you planning to insult me in every reply you make to me? 

Any reason why Keela would not have been asked to sniff out traces of blood or cadaver juice on the toy?

A) I havenot insulted you in every post Ive made to you so why say as much? Bit rich though coming from someone who insults people at will here, never mind though
B) I have no idea because, for the third time, wehave no record, so please explain, seeing as there is no record why I would know of any reason

I did write  a pertinent C) but someones removed it oh well
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 20, 2015, 11:40:36 PM
If there is blood there Keela will find it... (Source: Mr Grime, SY police dog handler)

Topside or other

She wouldn't be able to point her nose at if it was on the underside, would she.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 20, 2015, 11:46:05 PM
She wouldn't be able to point her nose at if it was on the underside, would she.

Dont know dont care but carry on trashing the dogs, night dear
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 20, 2015, 11:48:43 PM
She wouldn't be able to point her nose at if it was on the underside, would she.

Yes she would. She finds blood on weapons that have been wiped clean. Do you think they don't check the underside of them?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 21, 2015, 06:02:32 AM
We have discussed the situation on many occasions on the forum and the situation regarding the deployment and the payment exceeding the Chief Constables salary debunked every time.

DCI posted ...

Grime claims that in a 6 year period in Britain, Eddie was deployed over 200 times.

This disclosure under Freedom of Information (FOI) indicates just 37 deployments in the 5 year period 2003-2007.

Either Eddie must have had one very busy year or Grime has got his sums wrong.
 
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20090062
 
Some States in America use human cadavers to train cadaver dogs on what are known as ‘body farms’. Grime claims that Eddie has been trained on such a farm in the States.

An FOI answer to a question I have submitted cited parts of a Personal Development review for the Year 2005-6 when it was stated that Eddie (then aged 5 or 6, and close to retirement) had been to the States for that training. The cited justification was, not that it would improve Eddie’s performance, but that it would “generate some income potential”.
 
Until his last day of service, the daily cost of hiring Eddie was just £10. And no documentation confirming this apparent trip was ever received by SYP.
 
Still, Grime describes both Eddie and Keela as the only “assets” (as he describes them) of their type in the world. Clearly Eddie’s apparent training on a body farm in America wouldn't make him that, because many dogs in America are trained the same, so what would?
Whatever it is, perhaps that is why there are no references to the “Enhanced” Victim Recovery dog status outside Eddie and Grime?
 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1626.20;wap2

Thanks for this Brietta.  And DCI.

I've never been overly impressed by the dogs.  I find them more fun and games than hard fact.

One of the flags was the 'deployed 200 times' warning marker.  That sounded like one hell of a lot of unsolved dead/missing body cases.

However, I'm sure that you can understand that searching for 'cadaver dogs' on a forum like this is a pointless exercise.

 8((()*/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 21, 2015, 08:03:14 AM
Thanks for this Brietta.  And DCI.

I've never been overly impressed by the dogs.  I find them more fun and games than hard fact.

One of the flags was the 'deployed 200 times' warning marker.  That sounded like one hell of a lot of unsolved dead/missing body cases.

However, I'm sure that you can understand that searching for 'cadaver dogs' on a forum like this is a pointless exercise.

 8((()*/

That grew arms and legs...

From his résumé:
- In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs.

- The dog has never alerted to 'road kill'


In his report, "cases" became modified to "case searches":

In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches
the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption
. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

How it can be said that he's never reacted to a dead animal is a mystery to me, as he was trained on dead piglets and there's no mention of which types of road kill he had effectively encountered.


Then, from an FOI disclosure (no longer online at the SYP site), it seems that Eddie had only been deployed a total of 37 times between 2003 and 2007.

Information relating directly to the nature of each Victim Search Dog deployment, if made public could cause unnecessary distress to the persons and families connected with the deceased. However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:

As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.

Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/disclosurelog/20090062 (dead link)

Tavares de Almeida understood this to mean:
It must be highlighted that the resource to this kind of inspection is frequent in the UK and the success rate is 100%.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TAVARES_ALMEIDA.htm

I've seen this morphed by fans into the assertion that Eddie had a 100% success rate and secured over 200 convictions...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Montclair on May 21, 2015, 09:28:43 AM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 09:56:36 AM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.

Excellent post.  8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 21, 2015, 10:04:13 AM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.

Some people here begin with the premiss that the McCanns are guilty, despite there being no evidence to back the premiss up.

It is a rather curious and about-face way of recommending that justice is done, thank goodness, not subscribed to by the powers-that-be in Portugal.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on May 21, 2015, 10:21:15 AM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.


I disagree.   IMO one of the main differences between 'supporters' and 'sceptics' is that supporters have made up their minds based on the available evidence, whilst many sceptics have made up their minds based on lies, myths and disinformation - which even after 8 years are STILL being trotted out over the internet as 'the troof' on a regular basis.   

This includes myths and disinformation about the dogs from sceptics who want to believe that if Eddie alerted then it is a FACT  that a dead body must have been present at 5A - even though Martin Grime emphasized that it is NOT a FACT and points out that there are various other innocent reasons why an alert may occur. 

Some sceptics have done exactly the same as Amaral and cherry picked only what suits them regarding the dogs  - and completely ignored everything about the dogs which doesn't suit them - pretending it doesn't exist.

Fortunately that is not how SY carry out their investigations.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on May 21, 2015, 10:29:36 AM
Please try and stay on topic

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2015, 10:48:46 AM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.

as has been pointed out...the sceptics believe lies ands myths.....the McCann supporters can see through all the propaganda that has come out of Portugal and look at things logically..
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 11:01:57 AM
as has been pointed out...the sceptics believe lies ands myths.....the McCann supporters can see through all the propaganda that has come out of Portugal and look at things logically..

That is a complete reversal of the truth.

Try again.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2015, 11:03:08 AM
That is a complete reversal of the truth.

Try again.

as has been pointed out...the sceptics believe lies ands myths.....the McCann supporters can see through all the propaganda that has come out of Portugal and look at things logically..
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 11:04:28 AM
as has been pointed out...the sceptics believe lies ands myths.....the McCann supporters can see through all the propaganda that has come out of Portugal and look at things logically..

I went with the Amaral interpretation of the results of the dog inspections having had the 'Dogs Don't Lie' mantra chanted at me ... then I watched the Levy video courtesy of a link provided by one of the aunties ... then I read up on what it is working dogs actually do in an investigation.

I watched the nauseating pamalam videos ... and subjected myself to studying the 'evidence' on some of the great aunties' sites ... I even managed to read some of the files.

So please don't tell me I don't have an informed view ... (and I don't know the half of what goes on behind the scenes)... any conclusions I have reached were enabled by the information I sourced and using a modicum of common sense ... not a belief system.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 11:11:45 AM
That is a complete reversal of the truth.

Try again.

You may be content to have your intelligence insulted by myths, lies and innuendo, others have thought it through and it is not a matter of belief or opinion ... it rests on evidence or the lack of it ... and a person's right to the presumption of innocence even if their surname is McCann. 

Exactly what was it about Mr Amaral's interpretation of the result of the dog inspections that overrides the results provided by the FSS?

Must be something really concrete and compelling ... so please don't hold back ... do tell.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2015, 11:17:34 AM
I went with the Amaral interpretation of the results of the dog inspections having had the 'Dogs Don't Lie' mantra chanted at me ... then I watched the Levy video courtesy of a link provided by one of the aunties ... then I read up on what it is working dogs actually do in an investigation.

I watched the nauseating pamalam videos ... and subjected myself to studying the 'evidence' on some of the great aunties' sites ... I even managed to read some of the files.

So please don't tell me I don't have an informed view ... (and I don't know the half of what goes on behind the scenes)... any conclusions I have reached were enabled by the information I sourced and using a modicum of common sense ... not a belief system.

So did I, much to my shame, although that Levy Edited Video didn't help.  That was quite deliberate.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 11:59:35 AM
Personally I think the idea of a mutt pinpointing the precise location of a speck of blood on a cuddly toy is utterly ludicrous but that's probably just me.  How does it do it?  Point to the exact spot with its nose?

A more precise version of this maybe?:
The pointer is employed to find upland game. In performing its task as a hunters' aid, these skills may be expected from Pointers when hunting:
    Point – The dog finds and points out the location of birds.
    Honor – The dog stops immediately or within a few steps, usually in a pointing stance, upon observing a bracemate on point.


Being lascivious and non pc by nature I find point one quite entertaining.
   
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 01:28:03 PM
as has been pointed out...the sceptics believe lies ands myths.....the McCann supporters can see through all the propaganda that has come out of Portugal and look at things logically..


Your statement dave is the typed equivalent of an inverse function.

Propaganda, myths and lies, have frequently come form the mccann camp, and the newspapers swallowing and perpetuating the same half truths and lies.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 02:15:25 PM

Your statement dave is the typed equivalent of an inverse function.

Propaganda, myths and lies, have frequently come form the mccann camp, and the newspapers swallowing and perpetuating the same half truths and lies.

Unfortunately a lot of the mtyhmisconceptions emanated from the co-ordinator of the investigation and some very flawed reasoning formed the basis of his approach ~ none more so than his misunderstanding of the use of dogs in the gathering of evidence. 

He dealt with many drug cases in his career ... did the Portuguese not have trained sniffer dogs helping in these investigations which might have given him a better understanding of how the dogs actually worked and how they were used?


... quote ...
Meanwhile, we were supposed to receive American electronic equipment that detects human bodies thanks to the odour that emanates from them (Scent Transfer Unit 100). But the equipment, blocked by customs, arrived late. We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 21, 2015, 03:02:42 PM
This reminds me of when people believed the premise that the sun revolved around the earth. If someone produced scientific evidence of the contrary, it was immediately dismissed as heresy and the person who presented this evidence was punished.

Some here start, with blind faith, with the premise that the McCanns are innocent, thus any evidence to the contrary is immediately dismissed as irrelevant and as heresy. Furthermore, the persons who doubt them are treated as heretics or with the new word "troll".

What I am saying is that if the dogs had alerted to anyone else the same number of times they had alerted to the parents, you would never dismiss them as you do now.
Funnily enough I would say exactly the same about "sceptics" who seem to have blind faith in the ability of a pair of dogs and who won't hear a negative word said against them, even if it comes in the form of scientific research proving issues such as the potential for handler bias (see my link).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 21, 2015, 03:51:42 PM
A more precise version of this maybe?:
The pointer is employed to find upland game. In performing its task as a hunters' aid, these skills may be expected from Pointers when hunting:
    Point – The dog finds and points out the location of birds.
    Honor – The dog stops immediately or within a few steps, usually in a pointing stance, upon observing a bracemate on point.


Being lascivious and non pc by nature I find point one quite entertaining.
 
A slight difference between pointing to a dead bird and pointing precisely to a speck of blood not visible to the naked eye - the dog's nose would have to hover millimetres above the speck surely?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2015, 04:36:45 PM

Your statement dave is the typed equivalent of an inverse function.

Propaganda, myths and lies, have frequently come form the mccann camp, and the newspapers swallowing and perpetuating the same half truths and lies.

let's have some examples then...I guarantee you will struggle
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 06:40:02 PM
let's have some examples then...I guarantee you will struggle

1. Abduction.

2. Exhibiting responsible parenting skills.
 
3. Going out to dine at the tapas. When in fact they were drinking as well.

4.  Claiming to be devout catholics.   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

More to come.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2015, 06:43:03 PM
1. Abduction.

2. Exhibiting responsible parenting skills.
 
3. Going out to dine at the tapas. When in fact they were drinking as well.

4.  Claiming to be devout catholics.   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

More to come.

Topic.  If You Please.  This is not a request.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 21, 2015, 06:54:23 PM
Topic.  If You Please.  This is not a request.

Have you asked dave to do the same ? &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2015, 06:59:13 PM
Have you asked dave to do the same ? &%+((£

since Eleanor's request I have not responded....it is Montclair's post that has taken this thread off topic
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 21, 2015, 07:00:45 PM

All of you.  This isn't personal.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 07:00:51 PM
Unfortunately a lot of the mtyhmisconceptions emanated from the co-ordinator of the investigation and some very flawed reasoning formed the basis of his approach ~ none more so than his misunderstanding of the use of dogs in the gathering of evidence. 

He dealt with many drug cases in his career ... did the Portuguese not have trained sniffer dogs helping in these investigations which might have given him a better understanding of how the dogs actually worked and how they were used?


... quote ...
Meanwhile, we were supposed to receive American electronic equipment that detects human bodies thanks to the odour that emanates from them (Scent Transfer Unit 100). But the equipment, blocked by customs, arrived late. We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral

Are you satisfied that is an accurate translation and that perhaps it should have read:
"An American electronic device allowing to identify human beings through the compounds detected in human odours was requested".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 07:04:01 PM
A slight difference between pointing to a dead bird and pointing precisely to a speck of blood not visible to the naked eye - the dog's nose would have to hover millimetres above the speck surely?

Like you and many others on this forum what I know about the operating and olfactory detail of woofers could be written in 20 point on the back of a penny black. So I haven't a clue.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 21, 2015, 07:32:47 PM
Like you and many others on this forum what I know about the operating and olfactory detail of woofers could be written in 20 point on the back of a penny black. So I haven't a clue.
You don't need to know anything about the dogs to know that in order for it to accurately pinpoint a microscopic dot of blood, its nose would (logically) have to be incredibly close to the microscopic dot it was alerting to. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 21, 2015, 07:43:02 PM
We could just listen to what Grime says......shame amaral didn't.  Amaral ignored Grime's reports and reached his own false conclusions...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 07:50:07 PM
Are you satisfied that is an accurate translation and that perhaps it should have read:
"An American electronic device allowing to identify human beings through the compounds detected in human odours was requested".

Actually ... if I may make so bold,  that part of the quote is irrelevant to the crux of the quote which was ...

  We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral
Meaning our man in Portugal was under the mistaken impression ~ the case was cracked ... thus proving his total ignorance of the actual role of the dogs.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 08:06:41 PM
Actually ... if I may make so bold,  that part of the quote is irrelevant to the crux of the quote which was ...

  We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral
Meaning our man in Portugal was under the mistaken impression ~ the case was cracked ... thus proving his total ignorance of the actual role of the dogs.

If the bit I pointed out has been inaccurately translated what reliability can be placed upon the rest of it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 21, 2015, 08:12:07 PM
You don't need to know anything about the dogs to know that in order for it to accurately pinpoint a microscopic dot of blood, its nose would (logically) have to be incredibly close to the microscopic dot it was alerting to.

I wouldn't know see my previous post.
If we are going to preface with "I would have thought" or insert "logically" or "You don't have to know anything about dogs to know something about them" and similar, into opinions it suggests we don't know.
You may think you know; I know I don't know.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 21, 2015, 08:25:47 PM
It's July. The hypothesis of death, including by the parents, is being seriously considered.

A few days later, we welcome Mark Harrison, a specialist in murder, and the search for missing persons and victims of natural disasters. National advisor to the British police, he is well known for his exceptional professional experience. He has already participated in dozens of international criminal investigations.

After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. (GA)

Commander Mark Harrison

Australian Federal Police

Mark joined the British Police Service in 1987 as a sworn officer where he initially performed uniform general duties. He progressed his career and focused in counter terrorism and the forensic aspects of search.

In 2002 Mark was appointed the British Police national coordinator for serial homicide, abduction and matters of national security where there were matters relating to forensic search. He fulfilled a senior detective leadership role as a consultant to fellow detectives and to government policy forums, consulting widely within the UK and other countries including, but not limiting to, the USA, Australia and New Zealand.

In 2004 Mark was awarded by HM The Queen the MBE for services to policing in relation to serial homicide and counter terrorist investigations.

In 2007 Mark was awarded a visiting professorship in earth and ocean sciences specializing in geoforensics in recognition to the contribution he has made in this emerging area of forensic science.

In 2010 Mark joined the Australian Federal Police as the coordinator of their crime scene sciences department and was promoted to Commander in February 2012 where he currently leads a large diverse team of operational forensic staff.

http://forensicacademy.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Efficient-Forensic-Science-2.pdf
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 21, 2015, 09:49:01 PM
IMO the theory in VDM film is proved incorrect by the minimum time the CSST experiment found.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 21, 2015, 10:40:19 PM
Thanks for this Brietta.  And DCI.

I've never been overly impressed by the dogs.  I find them more fun and games than hard fact.

One of the flags was the 'deployed 200 times' warning marker.  That sounded like one hell of a lot of unsolved dead/missing body cases.

However, I'm sure that you can understand that searching for 'cadaver dogs' on a forum like this is a pointless exercise.

 8((()*/

The police do not consider them "fun and games". They don't have a budget for this.

Read the False Alerts section here :

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

It clearly states that Eddie was used 200 times but not in 200 cases

200 criminal case "searches" is the clue

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 21, 2015, 10:46:03 PM
Funnily enough I would say exactly the same about "sceptics" who seem to have blind faith in the ability of a pair of dogs and who won't hear a negative word said against them, even if it comes in the form of scientific research proving issues such as the potential for handler bias (see my link).

Not so much "blind faith" (bit of an exageration there)  as an aversion to the myriad of "possibilities and probabilities" put forth as to what the cadaver dog was alerting to (and all myriad ideas relating only to the one apartment someone went "missing from" which is illogicl in itself)

The dog handler tells us what he alerts to but we have a very very long list "created" by "non-sceptics"

Now, who was saying something about "myths"?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 21, 2015, 10:48:24 PM
IMO the theory in VDM film is proved incorrect by the minimum time the CSST experiment found.

The routine change was earlier.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 21, 2015, 10:48:47 PM
You don't need to know anything about the dogs to know that in order for it to accurately pinpoint a microscopic dot of blood, its nose would (logically) have to be incredibly close to the microscopic dot it was alerting to.

Not sure why you are still banging on about this. Keela the blood dog does get "up close and personal" to the blood she detects.

Do you have an example of where she has not done so?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 11:00:55 PM
If the bit I pointed out has been inaccurately translated what reliability can be placed upon the rest of it?

As much reliability as any document translated from one language to another then to another and back again the Lord knows how many times.

Inspection of the apartments.
TRANSLATED FROM FRENCH BY ANNA ESSE
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 21, 2015, 11:04:12 PM
IMO the theory in VDM film is proved incorrect by the minimum time the CSST experiment found.

That is only if you believe Madeleine Mccann was alive at 9.15... Just saying
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 21, 2015, 11:46:32 PM


More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder. Goncalo Amaral



One truly has to wonder at the unswerving belief in a view of the world which is at variance with matters of record.

The coconut shell was not a body ... the bones were animal ... the teeth were milk teeth.  Where did it say anything about a body being buried under a flagstone in the pages of  Operation HAVEN?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 22, 2015, 12:00:35 AM
I wouldn't know see my previous post.
If we are going to preface with "I would have thought" or insert "logically" or "You don't have to know anything about dogs to know something about them" and similar, into opinions it suggests we don't know.
You may think you know; I know I don't know.
Come now Alice, we are told the blood dog signals the precise presence of microscopic traces of blood with her nose.  There is only one way that a dog can alert to something that small at anything approaching precisision and that is by hovering its nose precisely and closely over the speck.  Perhaps if it had fingers it could be trained to point with one of those instead, perhaps that will be the next generation of wonder dog to be developed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 12:16:19 AM
The routine change was earlier.
Routine changes never has solved a case, science of dogs has.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 22, 2015, 04:57:54 AM
The police do not consider them "fun and games". They don't have a budget for this.

Read the False Alerts section here :

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

It clearly states that Eddie was used 200 times but not in 200 cases

200 criminal case "searches" is the clue

SY has a budget for fun and games.

The mound they searched in mid-2014 is/was - probably occupied by one Godfrey Barrington Norton in May 2007 - a main route into Luz from the west side of the town and from Burgau - overlooked by the Paraíso development and the St James complex - probably overlooked by the Amici Italian restaurant (it opened in 2007 and it makes sense to open it at the start of season, but I don't know that for a fact, hence the probably) - it looks like a nothing little road going through the mound, but the reality is that the one-way system forces traffic to use it - and you can't manually dig holes in the middle of Luz without one hell of a lot of time, one hell of a lot of effort and one hell of a lot of noise.

The cemetery uses a JCB for graves, ditto all the drain schemes and road works.

Yet we had SY with pickaxes and shovels.  In central Luz.  If you are old enough you will remember Brian Rix farces.

What has this got to do with Amaral and the dogs?  The dogs were marketed as rocket science, when they were anything but.  I have had months to examine the capability of the dogs.  The timescale on the case was much shorter, and the information available then is what I would describe as skewed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 05:02:03 AM

Witness JW testifies the chat was completly normal. Theories of some early disaster are made by forums not by VDM. Back to dogs, had the dog ever been tested on scent pads of PMIs of only tens of minutes?
(In experiment with 5 trained dogs, none of them alerted the 1 hr 10 mins sample)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 05:22:16 AM
SY has a budget for fun and games.

The mound they searched in mid-2014 is/was - probably occupied by one Godfrey Barrington Norton in May 2007 - a main route into Luz from the west side of the town and from Burgau - overlooked by the Paraíso development and the St James complex - probably overlooked by the Amici Italian restaurant (it opened in 2007 and it makes sense to open it at the start of season, but I don't know that for a fact, hence the probably) - it looks like a nothing little road going through the mound, but the reality is that the one-way system forces traffic to use it - and you can't manually dig holes in the middle of Luz without one hell of a lot of time, one hell of a lot of effort and one hell of a lot of noise.

The cemetery uses a JCB for graves, ditto all the drain schemes and road works.

Yet we had SY with pickaxes and shovels.  In central Luz.  If you are old enough you will remember Brian Rix farces.

What has this got to do with Amaral and the dogs?  The dogs were marketed as rocket science, when they were anything but.  I have had months to examine the capability of the dogs.  The timescale on the case was much shorter, and the information available then is what I would describe as skewed.
The dogs are very valuable and not make huge wrong assumptions like human investigators do. In a recent case a dog indicated to an attic but was ignored first time by investigators. The dog was right BTW.
You identify the hill right and that night a group of early searchers including nannies went up there and spoke with him (nothing to do with the case).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 22, 2015, 07:17:14 AM
Routine changes never has solved a case, science of dogs has.

It will all be there in the end case as it all connects.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 08:03:53 AM
the thread concerns whether amaral was correct to draw the conclusions he did re the dogs...the answer is simple ...he wasn't..... he has misled a lot of poeple
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on May 22, 2015, 08:58:15 AM
the thread concerns whether amaral was correct to draw the conclusions he did re the dogs...the answer is simple ...he wasn't..... he has misled a lot of poeple

Until it is known what happened you cannot say his conclusions were incorrect.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 09:14:49 AM
The dogs are very valuable and not make huge wrong assumptions like human investigators do. In a recent case a dog indicated to an attic but was ignored first time by investigators. The dog was right BTW.
You identify the hill right and that night a group of early searchers including nannies went up there and spoke with him (nothing to do with the case).

With respect, pegasus, I think if SY went to the bother of going to the mound to search, it indicates that it had something to do with the case.

That we do not know what that is or what their purpose was, is neither here nor there.

The fact that Mr Amaral was dismissive of their efforts seems to me to be a tad unprofessional ... so nothing new there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 12:01:45 PM



I find it intriguing that in his book, Mr Amaral enumerates Eddie's successes in validation of his non success in Praia da Luz with examples of his involvement in cases ... every single one of which ... resulted in the subsequent discovery of human remains.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 22, 2015, 12:33:14 PM

Off Topic Deletions will commence very shortly.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 04:12:20 PM


I find it intriguing that in his book, Mr Amaral enumerates Eddie's successes in validation of his non success in Praia da Luz with examples of his involvement in cases ... every single one of which ... resulted in the subsequent discovery of human remains.
If an EVRD alerts at a small area where no physical evidence is subsequently found, this means the source was moved from that small area to somewhere else. For example in recent UK case an EVRD alerted to small area on carpet of a room. No physical evidence of a source was found at that small area.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 04:34:44 PM
If an EVRD alerts at a small area where no physical evidence is subsequently found, this means the source was moved from that small area to somewhere else. For example in recent UK case an EVRD alerted to small area on carpet of a room. No physical evidence of a source was found at that small area.


No it does not.

The dog can locate the edge of a scent cone.

It is interesting that the Welsh dog teams who came to Praia da Luz were a pair.  It is interesting that Martin Grime and his dogs also worked with another team when in Britain.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 05:02:48 PM

No it does not.

The dog can locate the edge of a scent cone.

It is interesting that the Welsh dog teams who came to Praia da Luz were a pair.  It is interesting that Martin Grime and his dogs also worked with another team when in Britain.
Yes the EVRD alerts at where the scent is strongest. A removed source might have been in a different part of a room to where the EVRD alerts. On slopes the alert can be where water flow brings the underground scent out the hillside. On lakes and rivers the EVRD alerts where the scent from a source many metres below emerges at the water surface. The international search professional from NPIA who took Eddie to PDL is an expert on these things.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 05:16:05 PM

No it does not.

The dog can locate the edge of a scent cone.

It is interesting that the Welsh dog teams who came to Praia da Luz were a pair.  It is interesting that Martin Grime and his dogs also worked with another team when in Britain.
Very good point about SY taking not one but two "cŵn chwilio" (they takes commands in welsh BTW). Maybe this is because the mound is big area and it could be done faster by two? Did the pair work side to side, or on different parts of the mound?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 22, 2015, 05:28:40 PM
Until it is known what happened you cannot say his conclusions were incorrect.


the thread concerns whether amaral was correct to draw the conclusions he did re the dogs...the answer is simple ...he wasn't..... he has misled a lot of poeple

amaral has claimed the alerts prove his conclusions.....prove is a word he has used...that's where he has misled gullible people
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 06:14:35 PM
Very good point about SY taking not one but two "cŵn chwilio" (they takes commands in welsh BTW). Maybe this is because the mound is big area and it could be done faster by two? Did the pair work side to side, or on different parts of the mound?


If it is practice to use two VRD teams, there must be a reason for that and I think it must be for verification particularly in criminal cases.

Also for justification to initiate an expensive course of action which is not necessarily to uncover criminal activity ...



This Sept. 22, 2014 photo shows an old well building in front of a home in Meadow Valley, Calif. The Plumas County Sheriff's Department said three cadaver dogs have alerted on the well, which is near the former home of Mark Wilson. Wilson was 13 went he disappeared in 1967. The sheriff's staff is trying to find funding sources for the nearly $100,000 it will take to excavate and reinstate the site.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2797589/Cadaver-dog-work-accepted-cops-courts.html#ixzz3at7QUFCC


Back to the Welsh dogs.  I think two dog teams are used to search and for corroboration.

If one VRD alerted and the handler recognised it as a trained response the other VRD and handler would be brought in and the determination made whether it would be necessary to follow up with forensic examination of the area.

I never saw the dogs working in tandem ... which doesn't mean that did not happen ... but surely it would make sense to cover the large area with both dogs working to their own grid with perhaps an overlap to ensure nothing was missed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 06:22:43 PM

the thread concerns whether amaral was correct to draw the conclusions he did re the dogs...the answer is simple ...he wasn't..... he has misled a lot of poeple

amaral has claimed the alerts prove his conclusions.....prove is a word he has used...that's where he has misled gullible people
The alerts are "intelligence" as MG describes them.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 22, 2015, 06:37:37 PM

If it is practice to use two VRD teams, there must be a reason for that and I think it must be for verification particularly in criminal cases.

Also for justification to initiate an expensive course of action which is not necessarily to uncover criminal activity ...



This Sept. 22, 2014 photo shows an old well building in front of a home in Meadow Valley, Calif. The Plumas County Sheriff's Department said three cadaver dogs have alerted on the well, which is near the former home of Mark Wilson. Wilson was 13 went he disappeared in 1967. The sheriff's staff is trying to find funding sources for the nearly $100,000 it will take to excavate and reinstate the site.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2797589/Cadaver-dog-work-accepted-cops-courts.html#ixzz3at7QUFCC


Back to the Welsh dogs.  I think two dog teams are used to search and for corroboration.

If one VRD alerted and the handler recognised it as a trained response the other VRD and handler would be brought in and the determination made whether it would be necessary to follow up with forensic examination of the area.

I never saw the dogs working in tandem ... which doesn't mean that did not happen ... but surely it would make sense to cover the large area with both dogs working to their own grid with perhaps an overlap to ensure nothing was missed.
So two dogs work on seperate grids to cover twice the area in a day.
But if one dog alerts, the other dog is asked to check the same spot.

BTW why didn't SY have the welsh dogs double check Eddie's alert in the 5A garden?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 22, 2015, 06:40:59 PM

If it is practice to use two VRD teams, there must be a reason for that and I think it must be for verification particularly in criminal cases.

Also for justification to initiate an expensive course of action which is not necessarily to uncover criminal activity ...



This Sept. 22, 2014 photo shows an old well building in front of a home in Meadow Valley, Calif. The Plumas County Sheriff's Department said three cadaver dogs have alerted on the well, which is near the former home of Mark Wilson. Wilson was 13 went he disappeared in 1967. The sheriff's staff is trying to find funding sources for the nearly $100,000 it will take to excavate and reinstate the site.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2797589/Cadaver-dog-work-accepted-cops-courts.html#ixzz3at7QUFCC


Back to the Welsh dogs.  I think two dog teams are used to search and for corroboration.

If one VRD alerted and the handler recognised it as a trained response the other VRD and handler would be brought in and the determination made whether it would be necessary to follow up with forensic examination of the area.

I never saw the dogs working in tandem ... which doesn't mean that did not happen ... but surely it would make sense to cover the large area with both dogs working to their own grid with perhaps an overlap to ensure nothing was missed.

There was nothing to indicate, on the ground, that the mound was worked in grid fashion.  It might have been, just nothing to indicate it.

SY said 41 anomalies investigated of which 3 were outside the mound.  So the process APPEARS to have been - identify anomaly - then investigate.

When they went into specific areas they would mark the perimeter, strim the weeds, then conduct a search.

There appeared to be vast tracts that were not searched at all, however, I was not there for vast chunks of time, so I could well be wrong.

I have wondered why they chose to lift some drain covers rather than others.

Whether the dogs in this search alerted or not seems to me to be 100% on-topic.  Would the 2014 dogs have alerted after 7 years?  When Amaral was told the dogs never made a mistake, what was he supposed to believe?

There's black.  There's white.  And there's all the grey in between.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 07:40:30 PM
So two dogs work on seperate grids to cover twice the area in a day.
But if one dog alerts, the other dog is asked to check the same spot.

BTW why didn't SY have the welsh dogs double check Eddie's alert in the 5A garden?

Summed up succinctly.

Re the Welsh dogs ... I think a seven year gap would have made the exercise futile as far as searching for evidence of human remains is concerned, the 'scent of death' or whatever Eddie alerted to wouldn't have hung around ... the time to have brought the dogs in was after Madeleine's disappearance not months after the event.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 22, 2015, 07:59:08 PM
Summed up succinctly.

Re the Welsh dogs ... I think a seven year gap would have made the exercise futile as far as searching for evidence of human remains is concerned, the 'scent of death' or whatever Eddie alerted to wouldn't have hung around ... the time to have brought the dogs in was after Madeleine's disappearance not months after the event.

That can squarely be put down to a British failure, glad you agree.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 22, 2015, 08:02:54 PM
Witness JW testifies the chat was completly normal. Theories of some early disaster are made by forums not by VDM. Back to dogs, had the dog ever been tested on scent pads of PMIs of only tens of minutes?
(In experiment with 5 trained dogs, none of them alerted the 1 hr 10 mins sample)
The "chat" being "normal" doesnt prove anything, does it?
Just saying. And your question is redundant as it rests on the assumption of a live child at the time of the "chat"
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 08:04:13 PM
There was nothing to indicate, on the ground, that the mound was worked in grid fashion.  It might have been, just nothing to indicate it.

SY said 41 anomalies investigated of which 3 were outside the mound.  So the process APPEARS to have been - identify anomaly - then investigate.

When they went into specific areas they would mark the perimeter, strim the weeds, then conduct a search.

There appeared to be vast tracts that were not searched at all, however, I was not there for vast chunks of time, so I could well be wrong.

I have wondered why they chose to lift some drain covers rather than others.

Whether the dogs in this search alerted or not seems to me to be 100% on-topic.  Would the 2014 dogs have alerted after 7 years?  When Amaral was told the dogs never made a mistake, what was he supposed to believe?

There's black.  There's white.  And there's all the grey in between.

The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.  But I am sure they worked to pre planned areas in much the fashion you have described.

I am certain the 2014 dogs would have alerted to human remains whether in whole or in part had there been any to be found ... I think there is a fair chance they would have alerted to contaminated clothing or materials.

I follow exactly what you are saying regarding the way in which the dogs were promoted ... but an unbiased observation might have led a more inquisitive investigator to question the hard sell just as  Inspector Joao Carlos did.

Perhaps (I don't know) the covers lifted were chosen because they allowed camera access to more of the drainage network?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 08:10:27 PM
That can squarely be put down to a British failure, glad you agree.

Do not presume to use the tried and tested tactic of putting words into my mouth particularly as you are not even subtle enough to implement insinuation.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on May 22, 2015, 08:21:43 PM
Do not presume to use the tried and tested tactic of putting words into my mouth particularly as you are not even subtle enough to implement insinuation.

LOL, whatever Mrs.

OK, whose fault was it that cadaver dogs werent brought in pdq? Seeing as the UK police were on the scene early on....


 &%+((£

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 08:46:18 PM
LOL, whatever Mrs.

OK, whose fault was it that cadaver dogs werent brought in pdq? Seeing as the UK police were on the scene early on....


 &%+((£


The UK police probably felt a bit of paranoia ... almost as if someone was following them and checking on their every move ... oh ... wait a minute ... I've just remembered ... someone was!!

It would probably have been more useful to have deployed the men assigned to following the Brits around to looking for Madeleine ... but Mr Amaral's priority didn't appear to lean in that direction ... nor did the level of his distrust allow for advice on how he might use specialist dogs.
If he was suspicious of the Brits ... and it is a matter of record he was ... the Germans also had dogs which could have been deployed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 22, 2015, 09:06:36 PM

The UK police probably felt a bit of paranoia ... almost as if someone was following them and checking on their every move ... oh ... wait a minute ... I've just remembered ... someone was!!

It would probably have been more useful to have deployed the men assigned to following the Brits around to looking for Madeleine ... but Mr Amaral's priority didn't appear to lean in that direction ... nor did the level of his distrust allow for advice on how he might use specialist dogs.
If he was suspicious of the Brits ... and it is a matter of record he was ... the Germans also had dogs which could have been deployed.

Who in the PJ would have contacted the FBI for their specialist Scent Transfer Unit 101 equipment prior to the dogs arriving?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2015, 09:10:42 PM
Who in the PJ would have contacted the FBI for their specialist Scent Transfer Unit 101 equipment prior to the dogs arriving?

Almost certainly no one, because the STU100 is a device for trapping the scents of living people and storing them so that repeat offenders can be identified by scent (one of the scents emitted by living people is unique).

http://www.crimesciences.com/StoreBox/otherevidencecollectkits/stu-100.htm

... and gives law enforcement a scent pad to store in scent banks for future use on repeat offenders.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 22, 2015, 09:16:39 PM
The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.  But I am sure they worked to pre planned areas in much the fashion you have described.

I am certain the 2014 dogs would have alerted to human remains whether in whole or in part had there been any to be found ... I think there is a fair chance they would have alerted to contaminated clothing or materials.

I follow exactly what you are saying regarding the way in which the dogs were promoted ... but an unbiased observation might have led a more inquisitive investigator to question the hard sell just as  Inspector Joao Carlos did.

Perhaps (I don't know) the covers lifted were chosen because they allowed camera access to more of the drainage network?

The days of stakes and string lines are long gone.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 22, 2015, 09:20:32 PM
The days of stakes and string lines are long gone.

If you really feel the need for constant criticism ... at least make the attempt to make it constructive    8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 22, 2015, 09:31:07 PM
If you really feel the need for constant criticism ... at least make the attempt to make it constructive    8)--))

You said the terrain was unsuitable for working to a grid.
Back that up explaining how and why and what equipment you have assumed would be necessary and why it would not be possible to use it at the particular location. That'll do for starters.
If you don't understand stakes and string lines and can't answer my question then you simply do not know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 22, 2015, 10:18:17 PM
Almost certainly no one, because the STU100 is a device for trapping the scents of living people and storing them so that repeat offenders can be identified by scent (one of the scents emitted by living people is unique).

http://www.crimesciences.com/StoreBox/otherevidencecollectkits/stu-100.htm

... and gives law enforcement a scent pad to store in scent banks for future use on repeat offenders.

Thank you for that. One wonders why Amaral made reference to the equipment being requested if that is its purpose.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2015, 10:20:54 PM
Thank you for that. One wonders why Amaral made reference to the equipment being requested if that is its purpose.

In his profile, Grime makes reference to the STU100, which he claims to have adapted for training purposes.

I'll see if I can dig out the reference:

I have developed the training of the E.V.R.D. to include the screening of scent pads

taken from motor vehicles, property or scenes by a ST100 Scent Transference Unit.

The unit is designed in a two-part design. The main body is a battery operated

elect.rica1 device that draws air in at to the front and exhausts through the rear. There is no 're-circulation' of air within the unit. The second part is a 'grilled' hood that fits to the main body. A sterile gauze pad is fitted into the hood. When operated, the ST100 draws air through the hood and the sterile gauze pad and exhausts through
ports to the rear. 'Scent' is trapped in the gauze, which may then be forensically

stored for use within scent discrimination exercises.

The ST 100 unit is cleaned following use in such a manner that no residual scent is

apparent. This is checked by control measures where the dog is allowed to search a

given area where the S 100 is secreted. Any response by the dog would suggest

contamination. Tests have shown that the decontamination procedures are effective in this case with the dog NOT alerting to the device when completed.

Use of the ST 100 is recommended when subject vehicles, property, clothing, premises

are to be forensically protected from contamination by the dog, and for covert

deployment. At a11 other times best practice would be for the dog to be given direct access.


Martin Grime.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on May 22, 2015, 11:16:42 PM
In his profile, Grime makes reference to the STU100, which he claims to have adapted for training purposes.

I'll see if I can dig out the reference:

I have developed the training of the E.V.R.D. to include the screening of scent pads

taken from motor vehicles, property or scenes by a ST100 Scent Transference Unit.

The unit is designed in a two-part design. The main body is a battery operated

elect.rica1 device that draws air in at to the front and exhausts through the rear. There is no 're-circulation' of air within the unit. The second part is a 'grilled' hood that fits to the main body. A sterile gauze pad is fitted into the hood. When operated, the ST100 draws air through the hood and the sterile gauze pad and exhausts through
ports to the rear. 'Scent' is trapped in the gauze, which may then be forensically

stored for use within scent discrimination exercises.

The ST 100 unit is cleaned following use in such a manner that no residual scent is

apparent. This is checked by control measures where the dog is allowed to search a

given area where the S 100 is secreted. Any response by the dog would suggest

contamination. Tests have shown that the decontamination procedures are effective in this case with the dog NOT alerting to the device when completed.

Use of the ST 100 is recommended when subject vehicles, property, clothing, premises

are to be forensically protected from contamination by the dog, and for covert

deployment. At a11 other times best practice would be for the dog to be given direct access.


Martin Grime.

Does that imply that the PJ weren't bothered if the dogs contaminated the areas/objects which were to be examined? Otherwise, they surely would have waited for the equipment to arrive.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 22, 2015, 11:21:00 PM
Does that imply that the PJ weren't bothered if the dogs contaminated the areas/objects which were to be examined? Otherwise, they surely would have waited for the equipment to arrive.

Only a personal opinion, but I think it more likely that Amaral just invented what he said in his book (based on what he read from Grime's profile) because it sounded good.

We know the PJ cribbed from translated literature Mark Harrison gave them in their write-up of the inspection in the gym, and I think you have roughly the same phenomenon with Amaral's reference in his book to the STU100
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on May 23, 2015, 08:17:46 AM
Summed up succinctly.

Re the Welsh dogs ... I think a seven year gap would have made the exercise futile as far as searching for evidence of human remains is concerned, the 'scent of death' or whatever Eddie alerted to wouldn't have hung around ... the time to have brought the dogs in was after Madeleine's disappearance not months after the event.

Why a limit of 7 years or less ?

Now that seven year thing sounds familiar.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 23, 2015, 09:01:55 AM
Why a limit of 7 years or less ?

Now that seven year thing sounds familiar.

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make.  Read the conversation from which my post you have quoted arises, then get back to me.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 23, 2015, 10:14:33 AM
Why a limit of 7 years or less ?

Now that seven year thing sounds familiar.
The Welsh dogs were deployed in Luz seven years on from Madeleine's disappearance, hence the reference to 7 years.

As to Amaral and the dogs, it has taken me months to get beyond what looks like marketing to a more accurate picture of the original dog teams capability.  And I did not have British political pressure or media hype to influence me.

As to the 2014 dig on the mound, think of the mound as a dart board and have someone who is not good at darts throw half a dozen darts at the target.  The areas searched were not contiguous and they did not search (in any detail) the whole of the mound.  They skipped from site to site much like butterflies flitting about.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 23, 2015, 12:18:55 PM
The Welsh dogs were deployed in Luz seven years on from Madeleine's disappearance, hence the reference to 7 years.

As to Amaral and the dogs, it has taken me months to get beyond what looks like marketing to a more accurate picture of the original dog teams capability.  And I did not have British political pressure or media hype to influence me.

As to the 2014 dig on the mound, think of the mound as a dart board and have someone who is not good at darts throw half a dozen darts at the target.  The areas searched were not contiguous and they did not search (in any detail) the whole of the mound.  They skipped from site to site much like butterflies flitting about.

That would beg the question: why?
I can only think of two reasons. Prejudgment/intelligence of likely places to search or it was a PR exercise.
I don't really subscribe to the last idea.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 23, 2015, 12:41:30 PM
That would beg the question: why?
I can only think of two reasons. Prejudgment/intelligence of likely places to search or it was a PR exercise.
I don't really subscribe to the last idea.

Aerial surveys were carried out and areas of interest would be noted.  We have been made aware of the difficult terrain in PDL which would mean that any ground disturbance would be for a reason and not just kids playing in a hole.

I was particularly intrigued by the reaction of some when the corrugated iron covered hole was investigated, who stated words to the effect that everyone knew of its existence ... the question being ... was the covering removed and the hole searched in 2007?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 23, 2015, 01:08:06 PM
Aerial surveys were carried out and areas of interest would be noted.  We have been made aware of the difficult terrain in PDL which would mean that any ground disturbance would be for a reason and not just kids playing in a hole.

I was particularly intrigued by the reaction of some when the corrugated iron covered hole was investigated, who stated words to the effect that everyone knew of its existence ... the question being ... was the covering removed and the hole searched in 2007?

Were I doing the job I would not re-trace steps taken by the original investigation if I were satisfied of their completeness simply because of the cost of duplication of effort to no better end.
Areas of which there were no record for any reason what ever I would cover. Not being party to any of it means we are surmising but it seems not unreasonable to conclude:
The areas were searched and records were not kept/lost/misfiled/incomplete.
The areas were not searched.
It was a PR exercise.
fait vos jeux.
I still don't like the PR option so "mon jeux" is on one of the others.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on May 23, 2015, 04:32:35 PM
"August 2007. OPERATION TASK CANINE SEARCH REPORT... (snip)... The following searches were conducted: (snip) ... Western beach Praia da Luz ... (snip)"
No video or photos of this dog search have been released.
Does "western beach" mean the little beach on the west side of the fort?
This is the closest beach to the sighting which Mr Amaral thinks is important.
Shining do you know anything about the history of the big rectangular drain here?
It looks much older than the modern round drains.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 23, 2015, 04:38:50 PM
Were I doing the job I would not re-trace steps taken by the original investigation if I were satisfied of their completeness simply because of the cost of duplication of effort to no better end.
Areas of which there were no record for any reason what ever I would cover. Not being party to any of it means we are surmising but it seems not unreasonable to conclude:
The areas were searched and records were not kept/lost/misfiled/incomplete.
The areas were not searched.
It was a PR exercise.
fait vos jeux.
I still don't like the PR option so "mon jeux" is on one of the others.

Like you, I would dismiss the PR option out of hand, particularly as much of the publicity generated was negative in the extreme and they knew that before starting.
I don't dismiss that it may have been designed to deflect attention from what they were really doing while mopping up a few loose ends.

I think all the going over old ground was carried out right at the beginning of the scoping exercise and it was a necessary diligence.

Whatever they were doing on the mound or the other places they checked out, and whoever they were interested in for whatever reason arises from information available in 2007 which has developed perhaps via new sources or things overlooked back then.

What the locus of the Welsh dogs was, I have no idea, but I am sure SY and the PJ know the exact significance and maybe someday we will find out ... hopefully when the case is solved.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 23, 2015, 05:05:03 PM
"August 2007. OPERATION TASK CANINE SEARCH REPORT... (snip)... The following searches were conducted: (snip) ... Western beach Praia da Luz ... (snip)"
No video or photos of this dog search have been released.
Does "western beach" mean the little beach on the west side of the fort?
This is the closest beach to the sighting which Mr Amaral thinks is important.
Shining do you know anything about the history of the big rectangular drain here?
It looks much older than the modern round drains.
First of all, on searches, despite being familiar with both the terrain in Luz and fairly familiar with the searches in and around Luz, I have come to the conclusion that I have little idea about what was searched of how it was searched, at more or less every point in time (SY search excluded).

The Mark Warner search was supposedly 'structured', though the mechanics are flimsy and if you can tell me exactly which areas were searched that night, I would be grateful for your enlightenment, as I think this is important.

If it was a 'missing child' procedure, I doubt it was designed to remove tin covers to see if anyone was underneath.  That would have been a 'dead child concealed' search.

Whether the little beach near Smithman was searched that night or in Aug 2007, I know not.  From the Fortaleza/Bull heading west, there is the little beach, then possibly miles of rocky shore before the cliffs kick in.

As to the drain on the little beach.  To be perfectly truthful, I have no certainty of its history.

The Ocean Club is 'modern' (from the era of tourist holidays by air), whilst Luz had/has a lot of older buildings that clearly predate this.  Many of these are around the locality of the Smithman sighting.  A number of houses on Rua Calheta are 'new', but many are 'cottages' that predate the Ocean Club.  Ditto Rua Direita and Rua 25 de Abril have fair numbers of buildings going back to when Luz was just a fishing village.

So, we have water from Rua Direita, Rua 25 de Abril and Rua Calheta, the old village, that needs to be dumped somewhere.

I suspect that all the rainwater drains that empty into the sea pre-date the Ocean Club.

The one on the little beach happens to be at one of the lowest road levels in Luz.  It is the one with the shortest distance from the roads to the sea.  I'd guess it is either equal oldest or actually wins the oldie prize.

But that is an interpretation of the data, rather than a knowledge of historical fact.

Note to Mods.  Yes - off topic.  But please don't delete.  Snip and start a new thread if you think we are too far off.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 23, 2015, 05:09:48 PM
I can't do that.  Snip and start a new thread.

So please let's not have any quotes or answers on this last post, as I shall have to consider removing them.

Thank You.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 23, 2015, 05:45:49 PM
I can't do that.  Snip and start a new thread.

So please let's not have any quotes or answers on this last post, as I shall have to consider removing them.

Thank You.
I'm still a newbie and trying to find my way around this rabbit warren.

Is there a more appropriate thread in existence? Please point me at it and I will happily snip to there.  Or set up a new thread if an appropriate one does not exist.

My thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on May 23, 2015, 05:51:32 PM
I'm still a newbie and trying to find my way around this rabbit warren.

Is there a more appropriate thread in existence? Please point me at it and I will happily snip to there.  Or set up a new thread if an appropriate one does not exist.

My thanks in advance.

It looks like a new Thread to me.  You start it, and all things being equal, I will approve it shortly.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 26, 2015, 09:54:00 PM
The days of stakes and string lines are long gone.

By chance I came across a photograph which illustrates the way in which areas to be searched were sub divided ...


Police investigate second area of scrubland in Madeleine McCann search
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-06-11/police-investigate-second-area-of-scrubland-in-madeleine-mccann-search/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 26, 2015, 10:12:34 PM
By chance I came across a photograph which illustrates the way in which areas to be searched were sub divided ...


Police investigate second area of scrubland in Madeleine McCann search
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-06-11/police-investigate-second-area-of-scrubland-in-madeleine-mccann-search/

You said:
The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.
Looks like we were both wrong really.
Mind you I guess it was set out using the optical instrument on the tripod in shot.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 26, 2015, 10:37:57 PM
You said:
The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.
Looks like we were both wrong really.
Mind you I guess it was set out using the optical instrument on the tripod in shot.

It was obvious there would be some method in use to mark out the areas to be searched and ticked off ... whether that was in the form of a physical grid and/or theodolite ... it seems that our argument was along the lines of how many angels ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 27, 2015, 11:18:41 AM
It was obvious there would be some method in use to mark out the areas to be searched and ticked off ... whether that was in the form of a physical grid and/or theodolite ... it seems that our argument was along the lines of how many angels ...

A heavenly host of them.

But not on this thread ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 11:29:08 AM
A heavenly host of them.

But not on this thread ....

  Absolutely right ...  8((()*/  ... I think we may have started off talking about Amaral and the dogs ... or the Welsh dogs, at least ... but got distracted into our private little spat ... so what's new?

The thought arises though, and it is possible the correct thread to raise it on ... did anyone check out the plumbing in the apartment after Eddie's alert in the wardrobe?
Bearing in mind that the fitted wardrobe shared a wall with the toilet.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2015, 11:55:47 AM
  Absolutely right ...  8((()*/  ... I think we may have started off talking about Amaral and the dogs ... or the Welsh dogs, at least ... but got distracted into our private little spat ... so what's new?

The thought arises though, and it is possible the correct thread to raise it on ... did anyone check out the plumbing in the apartment after Eddie's alert in the wardrobe?
Bearing in mind that the fitted wardrobe shared a wall with the toilet.

Interesting point, Brietta.

I hope this is sufficiently on topic as it is related to Amaral and the dogs...

Did Amaral ever ask for the architect's plans of Block 5 to check for entrances to a crawl space? I am reliably told that there would almost certainly be a large area under 5A to a) level off the ground and b) provide access in the event of major works.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 12:21:49 PM
Interesting point, Brietta.

I hope this is sufficiently on topic as it is related to Amaral and the dogs...

Did Amaral ever ask for the architect's plans of Block 5 to check for entrances to a crawl space? I am reliably told that there would almost certainly be a large area under 5A to a) level off the ground and b) provide access in the event of major works.

Putrecine and cadaverine, both components of decomposition, are found in urine and faeces ... hardly surprising since both are waste products from the body.
Plumbing smells indiscernible to the human nose could be indicated by a cadaver dog 'on the job' ... pity no-one checked that situation out.   

I don't think there is a record of any inspections carried out in the founds of the building ... or if the lift mechanism was checked out.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 12:41:18 PM
The wonder is that the dogs can ever be dragged away from all the smells indiscernible to the human nose around lavatories, bathrooms and nappy changing areas all over the place.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2015, 01:07:20 PM
If these dogs alerted to toilets/sewerage they would never be able to be used in houses.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 01:25:15 PM
The wonder is that the dogs can ever be dragged away from all the smells indiscernible to the human nose around lavatories, bathrooms and nappy changing areas all over the place.

You never said a truer word ... and is very likely why Judges and Juries prefer alerts to be accompanied by corroborative forensic or other evidence.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 01:31:15 PM
If these dogs alerted to toilets/sewerage they would never be able to be used in houses.

Why?  The alert to whatever would have to be eliminated or corroborated whatever the source.  It was considered appropriate to use Keela to eliminate the presence of blood when Eddie alerted ... why only blood? ... why not a possible other source?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2015, 01:34:21 PM
Why?  The alert to whatever would have to be eliminated or corroborated whatever the source.  It was considered appropriate to use Keela to eliminate the presence of blood when Eddie alerted ... why only blood? ... why not a possible other source?

Find a case where dogs alerted to toilets. As each house has at least one it shouldn't be too difficult.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 01:37:23 PM
You never said a truer word ... and is very likely why Judges and Juries prefer alerts to be accompanied by corroborative forensic or other evidence.

I know..............so attempts to hide the possibility that the dog alerted to the cadaver scent from the corpse of the missing person;....  amongst sea-bass, soiled nappies, pork products,  sundry bodily substances whether lavatorial, decayed, historical or living are a waste of effort, really.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 01:45:46 PM
I know..............so attempts to hide the possibility that the dog alerted to the cadaver scent from the corpse of the missing person;....  amongst sea-bass, soiled nappies, pork products,  sundry bodily substances whether lavatorial, decayed, historical or living are a waste of effort, really.

In the absence of any proof of exactly what Eddie smelled ... I would say you are perfectly correct that all options remain open.

Don't know if there is any evidence that anyone stored sea bass or pig in the wardrobe ... but there is a toilet pedestal directly through the wall complete with waste pipe ... and the dog proven to alert to semen and blood will most definitely alert to urine and faeces.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2015, 01:54:37 PM
Putrecine and cadaverine, both components of decomposition, are found in urine and faeces ... hardly surprising since both are waste products from the body.
Plumbing smells indiscernible to the human nose could be indicated by a cadaver dog 'on the job' ... pity no-one checked that situation out.   

I don't think there is a record of any inspections carried out in the founds of the building ... or if the lift mechanism was checked out.

I'm not convinced that Eddie would have reacted to simply toilet smells - otherwise he would presumably have reacted in the bathroom itself.

However, it's not impossible that the smell of something within his "training parameters" could be within such a void, if there is one.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 01:56:50 PM
Alert through a wall to next door?...........

Or anywhere possibly contaminated by 2 toddlers nappies, in that case................but not in the McCann bathroom or lavatory?



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 27, 2015, 01:58:14 PM
In the absence of any proof of exactly what Eddie smelled ... I would say you are perfectly correct that all options remain open.

Don't know if there is any evidence that anyone stored sea bass or pig in the wardrobe ... but there is a toilet pedestal directly through the wall complete with waste pipe ... and the dog proven to alert to semen and blood will most definitely alert to urine and faeces.
Have we forgotten that the grandparents of Tasmin Silence lived in 5A

Tasmin being the very observant little girl who was so helpful describing watchers at 5A

It is said that her grandpa died in hospital.



Wonder what happened to his clothes / slippers etc. 

Were they brought back from the undertakers / hospital to 5A?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 27, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
In the absence of any proof of exactly what Eddie smelled ... I would say you are perfectly correct that all options remain open.

Don't know if there is any evidence that anyone stored sea bass or pig in the wardrobe ... but there is a toilet pedestal directly through the wall complete with waste pipe ... and the dog proven to alert to semen and blood will most definitely alert to urine and faeces.

I think you have discussed this previously with Pathfinder. the dogs don't alert to toilets.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on May 27, 2015, 02:13:29 PM
Have we forgotten that the grandparents of Tasmin Silence lived in 5A

Tasmin being the very observant little girl who was so helpful describing watchers at 5A

It is said that her grandpa died in hospital.



Wonder what happened to his clothes / slippers etc. 

Were they brought back from the undertakers / hospital to 5A?

Aside from that, Sadie, the apartment went from being a residential one to a rented one. At the time of the disappearance, it was owned and rented out as a holiday let by an unrelated McCann. Some people buy all new furniture whereas others may try to find good deals in second-hand shops...

And without investigating and excluding all plausible explanations - which would be expensive to do in terms of resources - Eddie's alerts (bless him) mean little in the absence of physical evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 02:37:52 PM
I'm not convinced that Eddie would have reacted to simply toilet smells - otherwise he would presumably have reacted in the bathroom itself.

However, it's not impossible that the smell of something within his "training parameters" could be within such a void, if there is one.

In one of the other inspections he was interested enough in a corner of the room that the sideboard was moved to allow him access, although he was given no time to inspect.

One wonders if the bathroom was behind the adjoining wall.  It is he fact that cadaverine and putrecine are by products of human waste that brings the question to mind ... any residual smell through contamination has to be a consideration because I cannot see how the animal could be desensitised from reacting to those.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 02:53:50 PM
In one of the other inspections he was interested enough in a corner of the room that the sideboard was moved to allow him access, although he was given no time to inspect.

One wonders if the bathroom was behind the adjoining wall.  It is he fact that cadaverine and putrecine are by products of human waste that brings the question to mind ... any residual smell through contamination has to be a consideration because I cannot see how the animal could be desensitised from reacting to those.

With that stance.........what do you feel stops the animal reacting all over the place?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 27, 2015, 03:26:02 PM
With that stance.........what do you feel stops the animal reacting all over the place?

Do you suppose the dogs don't know when they are working and when they are not?  For example did Eddie obey a command to stop woofing or did he keep on woofing despite being stood down?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 07:26:39 PM
Do you suppose the dogs don't know when they are working and when they are not?  For example did Eddie obey a command to stop woofing or did he keep on woofing despite being stood down?

O.K............put it this way........When in "work mode" what stops the dog reacting to lavatories/bathrooms/nappy changing areas present at most sites and homes everywhere when investigating a possible death?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 27, 2015, 08:39:33 PM
O.K............put it this way........When in "work mode" what stops the dog reacting to lavatories/bathrooms/nappy changing areas present at most sites and homes everywhere when investigating a possible death?

Some kind of hardwired toggled interlock?  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on May 27, 2015, 08:57:56 PM
You said:
The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.
Looks like we were both wrong really.
Mind you I guess it was set out using the optical instrument on the tripod in shot.
No area in Luz was worked on a grid method in 2014.

General areas of interest (3) had cordon tape set around the outside to keep the media and public off.

When an area of particular interest (within the general area) was identified they then stuck in iron or steel stanchions on each corner, set up a small rectangle of tape, and worked within that.

The area to the east of Luz that was searched was quite large.  First, the entire perimeter was taped off.  Then, a quite small area within that had (presumably) metals rods banged in and the rectangle of interest taped off.  Then they searched that rectangle.

Then they concluded there was nothing of interest.

There does not seem to have been a comprehensive, meticulous or methodical search of areas to the east of Luz.

Just whack in a small search area, check that scrupulously, then move on.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 09:12:37 PM
Some kind of hardwired toggled interlock?  8(0(*

Not up to the computer speak.........but it could be Infinite Baffle on the Woofer.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 27, 2015, 09:12:57 PM
No area in Luz was worked on a grid method in 2014.

General areas of interest (3) had cordon tape set around the outside to keep the media and public off.

When an area of particular interest (within the general area) was identified they then stuck in iron or steel stanchions on each corner, set up a small rectangle of tape, and worked within that.

The area to the east of Luz that was searched was quite large.  First, the entire perimeter was taped off.  Then, a quite small area within that had (presumably) metals rods banged in and the rectangle of interest taped off.  Then they searched that rectangle.

Then they concluded there was nothing of interest.

There does not seem to have been a comprehensive, meticulous or methodical search of areas to the east of Luz.

Just whack in a small search area, check that scrupulously, then move on.

Blimey; as the cops appear to have had a theodolite I would have hoped the minimum they did was set out from an immovable temporary trig point to fix the coordinates of the "corners" of each search area so at least they knew where they were, in the sense that it would be repeatable so they could mark it out again if necessary.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on May 27, 2015, 09:17:54 PM
Not up to the computer speak.........but it could be Infinite Baffle on the Woofer.

It's not computer speak! It is basic controls. Gosh how offended am I that you should think I am some kind of computer geek?.....eeek!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on May 27, 2015, 09:22:18 PM
It's not computer speak! It is basic controls. Gosh how offended am I that you should think I am some kind of computer geek?.....eeek!

I must be below basic then, O Geek..........( "interlock" to me means Winter Vests, as recommended by my Gran. )

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2015, 11:12:28 AM
O.K............put it this way........When in "work mode" what stops the dog reacting to lavatories/bathrooms/nappy changing areas present at most sites and homes everywhere when investigating a possible death?

It is all in the training and perhaps in the dog.

For example ... dogs are trained not to disturb or contaminate evidence to which their noses have led them.  We have seen playful Eddie tossing cuddle cat around much to the bemusement of Inspector Joao Carlos.  We have seen him throwing clothing around during his inspection in the gymnasium.
Very definitely not a trained response.

We know that Eddie reacted to some extraordinary materials in Jersey ... so unless the a possible source for his behaviour in the McCann apartment has been checked and eliminated ... the possibility must remain, particularly as urine and faeces are detritus from a human body just as the semen which contaminated the tissue Eddie alerted to is.


**snip
6) Dogs used to develop probable cause based upon residual scent must be negatively conditioned to human urine, feces, and semen in order to ensure that the animal will not alert when encountering these substances during a search.
http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2015, 12:08:33 PM
It is all in the training and perhaps in the dog.

For example ... dogs are trained not to disturb or contaminate evidence to which their noses have led them.  We have seen playful Eddie tossing cuddle cat around much to the bemusement of Inspector Joao Carlos.  We have seen him throwing clothing around during his inspection in the gymnasium.
Very definitely not a trained response.

We know that Eddie reacted to some extraordinary materials in Jersey ... so unless the a possible source for his behaviour in the McCann apartment has been checked and eliminated ... the possibility must remain, particularly as urine and faeces are detritus from a human body just as the semen which contaminated the tissue Eddie alerted to is.


**snip
6) Dogs used to develop probable cause based upon residual scent must be negatively conditioned to human urine, feces, and semen in order to ensure that the animal will not alert when encountering these substances during a search.
http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

Mark Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. (TOTL)

The dog alerts will be proved if this case is solved. They couldn't control them or Amaral so they're the enemy.

1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example''
 Reply "I can't, no.' (DP)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2015, 12:16:14 PM
The dog's alerted only to areas that the PJ had been. All it would have taken is for one of the PJ to have been in contact with a cadaver. Alternatively amaral could have contaminated the scene deliberately in order to try and get a confession
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on May 28, 2015, 12:54:56 PM
That is a worrying concern imo. Portugal, although I have never been though may visit this year, but not to Prai da luz, but to sample some of their green wine is according to a good friend the type of place where you can offer a bribe. I'm sure we've all been to countries like that before. Maybe my friend is mistaken, but Amaral given his previous convictions is not adverse to applying some Sweeney style tactics. I wouldn't trust this man given the info we know so far. Maybe SY do not either... All the stuff regarding alerting to the loos or airtight cars is a far less credible proposition imo.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2015, 01:27:11 PM
That is a worrying concern imo. Portugal, although I have never been though may visit this year, but not to Prai da luz, but to sample some of their green wine is according to a good friend the type of place where you can offer a bribe. I'm sure we've all been to countries like that before. Maybe my friend is mistaken, but Amaral given his previous convictions is not adverse to applying some Sweeney style tactics. I wouldn't trust this man given the info we know so far. Maybe SY do not either... All the stuff regarding alerting to the loos or airtight cars is a far less credible proposition imo.


I think Mr Amaral was misled by the hard sell given to him re the skills of the dogs and I think it possible he genuinely believed the alerts.
There can be no argument that he 'jumped the gun' regarding the FSS results.

There was no further investigation carried out into what might have triggered the dogs' response even for elimination purposes. 
I have seen it mentioned in more than one publication, that a contra indication to the efficiency of a VRD is a panting dog ... now think back to the soundtrack of videos of Eddie racing around in PDL.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2015, 02:11:29 PM
Mark Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. (TOTL)

The dog alerts will be proved if this case is solved. They couldn't control them or Amaral so they're the enemy.

1485 "But could you remember what Kate was wearing for example''
 Reply "I can't, no.' (DP)


 @)(++(*  Mind you, neither could Kate. After the children went to bed;
She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

Or did she have a shower earlier?

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Whichever, Gerry thought she had a bath earlier, he had one after the children went to bed;

As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already had one, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I don't find it strange that the PJ believed the dogs got it right, because the statements were a mess.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2015, 03:34:39 PM
@)(++(*  Mind you, neither could Kate. After the children went to bed;
She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

Or did she have a shower earlier?

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Whichever, Gerry thought she had a bath earlier, he had one after the children went to bed;

As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already had one, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I don't find it strange that the PJ believed the dogs got it right, because the statements were a mess.

It won't only be the PJ who think the dogs were correct. Their statements from 5:30 onwards are a shambles. We decided not to take them out before Gerry left for tennis then Gerry is sending David to help Kate bring the kids out 30 minutes later. There are too many contradictions from 5:30 onwards. This is the last time three witnesses saw Maddy and they can't agree on anything. Dave was inside no he wasn't.

It was around 7:15PM when they put the children to bed and checked they were sleeping, she says she is sure of this.  Before leaving they checked on the children, she doesn't know who; however Gerry says it was him. 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

He does not know if they were asleep but from the silence he presumed that they were.
At 20H35, they left the apartment in the direction of the TAPAS. Before they left and because the children's bedroom door was ajar as always, he opened it a little more, listening from the outside and, as there was complete silence he did not enter, returning the door to its previous position, with a space of about 10cm.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

Too strange to be believed. They can't look in past that pesky ajar door to check on their children. The door was always ajar I tell you until Tannerman moved it.

But wait Gerry said they did check on the children before leaving re 4 May statement.

After 20.30, the witness and his wife, after looking at the children, went to the Tapas Bar, about 50 metres away, where they had dinner.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2015, 05:38:16 PM
@)(++(*  Mind you, neither could Kate. After the children went to bed;
She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

Or did she have a shower earlier?

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Whichever, Gerry thought she had a bath earlier, he had one after the children went to bed;

As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already had one, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I don't find it strange that the PJ believed the dogs got it right, because the statements were a mess.

Absolutely ... a total mess ... how fortunate it is that SY are using professionally translated files which are sequential.

I'm not absolutely sure you can tar the PJ as a whole with the stick of making such a pig's ear of the dogs inspections, Inspector João Carlos questioned the visual reports which the coordinator accepted hook line and sinker ... so blame where blame is due
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2015, 06:32:18 PM
Absolutely ... a total mess ... how fortunate it is that SY are using professionally translated files which are sequential.

I'm not absolutely sure you can tar the PJ as a whole with the stick of making such a pig's ear of the dogs inspections, Inspector João Carlos questioned the visual reports which the coordinator accepted hook line and sinker ... so blame where blame is due

Are you suggesting that the anomalies are due to translation errors? Wow, big errors! Kate was wrapped in a towel when David arrived - oh no she wasn't.  @)(++(*

Time will tell perhaps about the veracity or otherwise of the dog alerts. Keela wasn't wrong once, and people can assume that Eddie was wrong, but he could have been right.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2015, 06:39:19 PM
@)(++(*  Mind you, neither could Kate. After the children went to bed;
She took a bath, did her make-up and drank a glass of New Zealand wine with her husband.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

Or did she have a shower earlier?

While the children were eating and looking at some books, Kate had a shower which lasted around 5 minutes.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Whichever, Gerry thought she had a bath earlier, he had one after the children went to bed;

As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already had one, they talked a little and drank wine or beer.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

I don't find it strange that the PJ believed the dogs got it right, because the statements were a mess.

these were the statements given in English and translated....the ones where kate complained about mistranslations.....

It's not unusual to have a  shower followed by a bath...some of us don't like to relax in a bath of dirty water particularly if we have been covered in suncream
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2015, 07:12:05 PM
these were the statements given in English and translated....the ones where kate complained about mistranslations.....

It's not unusual to have a  shower followed by a bath...some of us don't like to relax in a bath of dirty water particularly if we have been covered in suncream

CC likes a good scrub aswell. Kate had just finished a long run so if she wanted a shower she would have it as soon as she went through the door and before Gerry left for tennis. The statements reveal what the normal time was for the kids bath but this has now changed to Kate's shower time 1830.  And David couldn't remember her only wearing a towel. Oh yes I believe every word they say  8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on May 28, 2015, 07:44:00 PM
CC likes a good scrub aswell. Kate had just finished a long run so if she wanted a shower she would have it as soon as she went through the door and before Gerry left for tennis. The statements reveal what the normal time was for the kids bath but this has now changed to Kate's shower time 1830.  And David couldn't remember her only wearing a towel. Oh yes I believe every word they say  8)--))

Amaral makes a big thing about the inconsistencies...when Kate said the bottle was half empty and Gerry said it was half full...amaral knew one of them had to be lying. If he could work out which one he could crack the case
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on May 28, 2015, 07:47:06 PM
Are you suggesting that the anomalies are due to translation errors? Wow, big errors! Kate was wrapped in a towel when David arrived - oh no she wasn't.  @)(++(*

Time will tell perhaps about the veracity or otherwise of the dog alerts. Keela wasn't wrong once, and people can assume that Eddie was wrong, but he could have been right.

 ... and shock! horror! wrapped in a towel or not wrapped in a towel ... all that is so so important to what? ... you must have an explanation for why you find such nonsense so earth shattering in relation to the main event of the evening, which was a little girl going missing from her bed.   

It is just understandable why Mr Amaral got it so wrong as far as the dogs were concerned ... he knew nothing about dogs and must have been as desperate to believe the hype about them as he was to pin Madeleine's disappearance on her mother.
Although the rush to make Dr McCann an arguida days before he would have had to present evidence to allow such a move makes one wonder if he really did believe or if he was going for "confession".

The dogs did their job ... they found neither human remains nor did they find evidence which pointed to parental or any other involvement ... end of.

As we have now been made aware by the Portuguese and British investigations ... many avenues of investigation were overlooked in 2007 and are still being followed in 20015 to find out what may have happened to Madeleine ... so it seems rather odd that you and others pin so many hopes on a failed working dog expedition in 2007 to the extent that Eddie and Keela have achieved cult status.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on May 28, 2015, 07:58:06 PM
When police are investigating the disappearance of a child it's counter-productive to keep changing your statements because it makes them suspect you're being less than truthful.

We don't know if the dogs got it wrong because we don't know what happened.

We don't know what the current investigators are thinking because they haven't told us.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 28, 2015, 08:02:26 PM
When police are investigating the disappearance of a child it's counter-productive to keep changing your statements because it makes them suspect you're being less than truthful.

We don't know if the dogs got it wrong because we don't know what happened.

We don't know what the current investigators are thinking because they haven't told us.
Can you give an example of someone who "kept changing their statement" with regard to the events of that evening?  That is, more than 2 significant changes please.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 28, 2015, 09:20:54 PM
Can you give an example of someone who "kept changing their statement" with regard to the events of that evening?  That is, more than 2 significant changes please.

1. Key door

2. DP visit

Regarding the episode where he spoke to David on the 3rd of May, he says that he was playing tennis at 18:30 when David appeared near the tennis court and asked him if he was going to continue playing. G. said he didn't know because Kate might be needing help to look after the three children, because they intended to bring them to the recreation area after their showers. He thinks that David offered to check if Kate needed help, which he did, and returned minutes later. Regarding his previous statement where he states that David returned half an hour later around 19:00, he says that he returned to the tennis court after half an hour, as this time frame refers to the second time he returned to the tennis court after getting ready for the game.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. At the flat they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00PM Gerry went to the tennis courts, soon after the children had finished their bath. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door.

After the children's bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

They can't agree on anything in regards to that time period - that much is obvious!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on May 29, 2015, 02:12:18 PM
Amaral and the dogs, wrapped in David Payne's towel ....

Most extraordinary ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 29, 2015, 02:23:48 PM
1. Key door

2. DP visit

Regarding the episode where he spoke to David on the 3rd of May, he says that he was playing tennis at 18:30 when David appeared near the tennis court and asked him if he was going to continue playing. G. said he didn't know because Kate might be needing help to look after the three children, because they intended to bring them to the recreation area after their showers. He thinks that David offered to check if Kate needed help, which he did, and returned minutes later. Regarding his previous statement where he states that David returned half an hour later around 19:00, he says that he returned to the tennis court after half an hour, as this time frame refers to the second time he returned to the tennis court after getting ready for the game.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. At the flat they both bathed the children, and close to 6:00PM Gerry went to the tennis courts, soon after the children had finished their bath. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key. She does not know if it was locked, and presumes it was Gerry who opened it. At lunch time they also entered by the same door.

After the children's bath, already alone, she put pyjamas and nappies on the twins, gave them each a glass of milk and biscuits. Before bathing the children and because it was early, they had thought of taking them to the recreation area, but then decided against this because of tiredness.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

They can't agree on anything in regards to that time period - that much is obvious!
An example of one specific individual who kept changing his or her story please - two or more significant changes please....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2015, 03:29:09 PM
An example of one specific individual who kept changing his or her story please - two or more significant changes please....

Gerry see above. Key and DP visit - how long he was away. Kate saying Maddy dropped it and moved on and it never crossed her mind again and she's talking about it at the table. Kate first statement - took a bath after kids put to bed at 7:30. Arguido it had changed to 6:30. You don't take 2 in an hour. Kate only did one brief statement on 4 May. Gerry telling Fiona Kate was bathing the kids at around 6:30 and getting them ready for bed. Gerry said they had bathed them before he left at 6. Maddy was really tired but then says it was the best day of her life. Maddy said two things that day or in the whole of that holiday in the book - why didn't you come when we cried (you got the day wrong plummy) and it was the best day ever  &%+((£

A liar should never change their story so why would somebody keep changing it? Once is more than enough. You find contradictions and work from there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 29, 2015, 03:56:12 PM
Gerry see above. Key and DP visit - how long he was away. Kate saying Maddy dropped it and moved on and it never crossed her mind again and she's talking about it at the table. Kate first statement - took a bath after kids put to bed at 7:30. Arguido it had changed to 6:30. You don't take 2 in an hour. Kate only did one brief statement on 4 May. Gerry telling Fiona Kate was bathing the kids at around 6:30 and getting them ready for bed. Gerry said they had bathed them before he left at 6. Maddy was really tired but then says it was the best day of her life. Maddy said two things that day or in the whole of that holiday in the book - why didn't you come when we cried (you got the day wrong plummy) and it was the best day ever  &%+((£

A liar should never change their story so why would somebody keep changing it? Once is more than enough. You find contradictions and work from there.
COuld you try and be a bit more clear in what you are saying.  Let's take the example of Gerry and DP's visit.  We need two or more clear alterations of a story to qualify as "keep changing statements" - so - let's see three or more separate accounts of showing the changes...
1st statement he said -
2nd statement he said
3rd statement he said
etc.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2015, 04:16:33 PM
COuld you try and be a bit more clear in what you are saying.  Let's take the example of Gerry and DP's visit.  We need two or more clear alterations of a story to qualify as "keep changing statements" - so - let's see three or more separate accounts of showing the changes...
1st statement he said -
2nd statement he said
3rd statement he said
etc.

Gerry only made two statements. Kate made one statement so where are you getting the third and more statements. You only need contradictions not 3 different changes. Who would anybody change their story three times. Gerry said half-hour on 10 May but said that was not correct in Sept. On that holiday from statements kids bath time was 6:30 onwards but it was said to have changed on 3 May to before 6pm. Fiona contradicts that statement.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2015, 04:31:02 PM
Gerry only made two statements. Kate made one statement so where are you getting the third and more statements. You only need contradictions not 3 different changes. Who would anybody change their story three times. Gerry said half-hour on 10 May but said that was not correct in Sept. On that holiday from statements kids bath time was 6:30 onwards but it was said to have changed on 3 May to before 6pm. Fiona contradicts that statement.

You are wrong again Pfinder.

Gerry made three statements:

1)   04.05.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm

2)  10.05.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

and,

3)  07.09.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

I am not aware of any others but there are certainly three.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on May 29, 2015, 05:44:11 PM
Gerry only made two statements. Kate made one statement so where are you getting the third and more statements. You only need contradictions not 3 different changes. Who would anybody change their story three times. Gerry said half-hour on 10 May but said that was not correct in Sept. On that holiday from statements kids bath time was 6:30 onwards but it was said to have changed on 3 May to before 6pm. Fiona contradicts that statement.
Pathfinder.  If you change or correct an element of your statement once that does not constitute "keep on changing your statement" - not in my universe anyway.  It constitutes one change.  If another witness contradicts your statement that also does not constitute "keep on changing your statement" either.  Jeez.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2015, 05:50:39 PM
You are wrong again Pfinder.

Gerry made three statements:

1)   04.05.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN.htm

2)  10.05.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

and,

3)  07.09.2007
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-ARGUIDO.htm

I am not aware of any others but there are certainly three.

Yes one as suspects which is different and many months later to the other two.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on May 29, 2015, 08:52:33 PM
Three statements Pfinder.

Alfie was right and you were wrong.

Why dont you admit it


A gentle apology would be nice altho I doubt that Alfie requires one.  He is pretty easy going on that score.

I've quoted all 3 in my posts. I'm interested in the initial statements not months later when you can get your stories straight. It's interesting how the later ones contradict the early ones tho. If you tell the truth you dont have to remember anything  8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on May 29, 2015, 09:01:27 PM
I've quoted all 3 in my posts. I'm interested in the initial statements not months later when you can get your stories straight. It's interesting how the later ones contradict the early ones tho. If you tell the truth you dont have to remember anything  8)--))

Quite right.

I can recommend it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on June 06, 2015, 04:24:53 PM
If Amaral and co. had been genuinely in the dogs, he might have raised a few questions.

Luckily, the DCCB chap eventually did.

Dogs are such clever people...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vs4hpG50Cc
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on June 06, 2015, 04:27:28 PM
Video blocked in England ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 05, 2015, 03:08:27 PM
Friday 03 July 2015

Human Remains Found Inside Apartment Wall

Family members say they fear the body is that of Raven Joy Campbell, 31, who disappeared in Lomita, California, in 2009.

Human remains have been found inside the walls of an apartment building in California after a tip off to police.

Coroner's office officials went to the property in Lomita and cadaver dogs gave a "positive alert" for a body.

http://news.sky.com/story/1512836/human-remains-found-inside-apartment-wall
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2015, 04:12:48 PM
Friday 03 July 2015

Human Remains Found Inside Apartment Wall

Family members say they fear the body is that of Raven Joy Campbell, 31, who disappeared in Lomita, California, in 2009.

Human remains have been found inside the walls of an apartment building in California after a tip off to police.

Coroner's office officials went to the property in Lomita and cadaver dogs gave a "positive alert" for a body.

http://news.sky.com/story/1512836/human-remains-found-inside-apartment-wall

Well they would, wouldn't they, if there was a body there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 05, 2015, 05:37:51 PM
Well they would, wouldn't they, if there was a body there.

They bring cadaver dogs in first before knocking down walls.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 05, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
They bring cadaver dogs in first before knocking down walls.


The point is there was something there for them to react to.  Dog indicates ... human finds the evidence ... self explanatory.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2015, 05:55:37 PM
They bring cadaver dogs in first before knocking down walls.


There was still a body there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 05, 2015, 05:59:27 PM
Nothing to do with the horrible smell reported by HUMANS, then.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 05, 2015, 06:20:53 PM
There was still a body there.

And then there was that, of course.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 05, 2015, 07:11:45 PM
Competently deployed, dogs can be an invaluable aid to any criminal enquiry.

I don't think anyone (here!) has ever disputed that ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 02:40:14 AM
There was still a body there.

Yes because the body was hidden behind a wall. Dogs will still pick up the scent if it has been removed e.g. Zapata case dogs detected the scent 30 years later. Any credible police force will be working on a theory that the missing child possibly died at the crime scene and was removed by the unidentified suspect. SY searches close to the sighting suggest it.

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that Madeleine had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.

Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2015, 06:29:16 AM
Yes because the body was hidden behind a wall. Dogs will still pick up the scent if it has been removed e.g. Zapata case dogs detected the scent 30 years later. Any credible police force will be working on a theory that the missing child possibly died at the crime scene and was removed by the unidentified suspect. SY searches close to the sighting suggest it.

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that Madeleine had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.

Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.

So we are still left with only possibilities.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 08:38:01 AM
So we are still left with only possibilities.

This one theory fits with the evidence and needs to be proved. The unidentified man gave the time/game away as you will find out.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 09:11:03 AM
Yes because the body was hidden behind a wall. Dogs will still pick up the scent if it has been removed e.g. Zapata case dogs detected the scent 30 years later. Any credible police force will be working on a theory that the missing child possibly died at the crime scene and was removed by the unidentified suspect. SY searches close to the sighting suggest it.

Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that Madeleine had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.

Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve

This article was amended on 21 March 2014. The earlier version stated that Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.

The Guardian article shows that all options remain open in Madeleine McCann's case.

To think that Madeleine's case is being looked at in isolation is naive.  As part of that investigation into the very serious offences which had occurred, Scotland Yard have seized the opportunity presented to investigate other crimes committed against Britons who were on holiday in the Algarve.

It is extraordinary that an investigation into a child who had disappeared from her bedroom did not take into consideration crimes being committed against children by an intruder to their bedrooms.
It is remarkable that there was a denial by some that such crimes had been committed at all.

Viewed against the spotlight of the many persons who remain of interest and the many persons already investigated by SY and eliminated from the inquiry ... when taken in conjunction with the separate PJ investigation ... it clearly shows that somewhere along the line, the Amaral investigation took a wrong turning.

Whether that was as a result of the flawed exercise involving the introduction of the dogs to the case and the total misinterpretation of their abilities and significance, despite the caveats of Martin Grime, remains to be seen.

I would suggest that the dogs had little to do with Mr Amaral taking his eye off the ball and more to do with grabbing any leverage to close the case with another parental conviction under his belt.

The article suggests that there may even be forensic evidence available from these assaults.  I would have thought investigation of that would have taken priority over putting all the eggs into one basket of woof = guilty parent, preferably the mother.



**snip
Detectives said there had been an increase in criminality and burglary in Praia da Luz that peaked in April 2007, shortly before Madeleine's disappearance.

Scotland Yard also revealed it was looking at 38 "people of interest" in relation to her disappearance, having dismissed 22 others from that category. They were also trying to find out more about 530 known sex offenders – 59 regarded as of high interest – across Europe.

However Portugal's Polícia Judiciária (PJ) claimed that Wednesday's press conference simply confirmed a primary line of investigation which has been investigated by Portuguese police since last October. Suggestions that the information released by the Met had initially been discounted by Portuguese detectives were denied by a source at the PJ's headquarters in Lisbon.

He said that evidence of a string of crimes had been the driving force behind Portuguese officials re-opening the case. "It is all there in the police case files," said the source. "You will see when it is made public."

Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, have been informed of the latest developments.

Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCann family, told the BBC: "Kate and Gerry still believe that Madeleine is alive and out there to be found, and that is why they are so pleased that the British police are doing such a good job on this."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/19/madeleine-mccann-police-intruder-girls-algarve
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2015, 09:33:09 AM

Quote Brietta.

"I would suggest that the dogs had little to do with Mr Amaral taking his eye off the ball and more to do with grabbing any leverage to close the case with another parental conviction under his belt."

My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 01:26:20 PM
Quote Brietta.

"I would suggest that the dogs had little to do with Mr Amaral taking his eye off the ball and more to do with grabbing any leverage to close the case with another parental conviction under his belt."

My thoughts exactly.

I wonder how Mr Murat`s arguido status and the investigations into his possible involvement ties in with "any leverage to close the case with another parental conviction under his belt," though?

Might there have been a prior hope that there would be alerts around his property and so forth, which,  along with turning over his garden,  could possibly have formed the initial leverage to close the case, too?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2015, 01:35:39 PM
I wonder how Mr Murat`s arguido status and the investigations into his possible involvement ties in with "any leverage to close the case with another parental conviction under his belt," though?

Might there have been a prior hope that there would be alerts around his property and so forth, which,  along with turning over his garden,  could possibly have formed the initial leverage to close the case, too?

No doubt with some link to The McCanns. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 01:41:29 PM
I think the interest in Robert Murat sprang from uncertainty about his whereabouts on the night (never, I don't think, satisfactorily resolved, either way).

Whatever the truth of that, there doesn't seem to be a shred of evidence linking Murat to Madeleine, and certainly not to Madeleine's disappearance.

I don't believe the present enquiry is considering Murat, any more than it is considering the McCanns.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 02:37:52 PM
I think the interest in Robert Murat sprang from uncertainty about his whereabouts on the night (never, I don't think, satisfactorily resolved, either way).

Whatever the truth of that, there doesn't seem to be a shred of evidence linking Murat to Madeleine, and certainly not to Madeleine's disappearance.

I don't believe the present enquiry is considering Murat, any more than it is considering the McCanns.

They have interviewed Murat.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 03:21:47 PM
What does the sofa have to do with Murat's whereabouts on the night?

ETA: From John Lowe's report:

A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material on the swab (3A) from the apartment floor. An attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material on the wet swab (3B) from the same area was unsuccessful in that no profile was obtained.

Weak and incomplete DNA results which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components were obtained from cellular material on the wet and dry swabs (14A & B} from the back of the sofa.


And ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 03:52:57 PM
What does the sofa have to do with Murat's whereabouts on the night?

ETA: From John Lowe's report:

A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material on the swab (3A) from the apartment floor. An attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material on the wet swab (3B) from the same area was unsuccessful in that no profile was obtained.

Weak and incomplete DNA results which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components were obtained from cellular material on the wet and dry swabs (14A & B} from the back of the sofa.


And ....

Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert.

An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 03:57:12 PM
Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert.

An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area.

Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert.

You don't seem to have learnt anything, do you?

Keela alerted only to human blood.

Eddie alerted to human blood and cadaver scent.

So where both dogs alert in the same spot, the provenance of the alert has to be blood.

Or Keela has alerted falsely.

Or both dogs have alerted falsely.

An alert from Keela (assuming an alert within trained parameters!) is blood!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 04:01:03 PM
Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert.

An incomplete DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material present in the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3A). The low-level DNA result showed very meagre information indicating more than one person. Departing from the principle that all confirmed DNA components within the scope of this result originated from a single source, then these pointed to corresponding components in the profile of Madeleine McCann; however, if the DNA within the scope of this result originated from more than one person then the result could be explained as being DNA originating from [a mixture of DNA from both] Kate Healy and Gerald McCann, for example. DNA profiles established through LCN are extremely sensitive; it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid. nor to determine how or when that DNA was transferred to that area.

Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert....corroborated Eddie's  alert being that of blood only
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 05:29:40 PM
Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert....corroborated Eddie's  alert being that of blood only

The dogs are very good. You will find out how good if they solve this case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 05:41:43 PM
The dogs are very good. You will find out how good if they solve this case.

Eddie couldn't make up his mind whether there was, or whether there wasn't, a scent on cuddle-cat.

And despite not being able to find a trace of any scent on clothing in the villa, he (apparently) could find a scent (on exactly the same clothing!) in the gym.

Most bizarre ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:44:56 PM
No doubt with some link to The McCanns.

Mr Amaral linked him to the McCanns?
Wasn`t it the McCanns and/or friends who felt that Murat was involved in some way?
Is that the link to Murat, along with the suspicions of a journalist?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 06, 2015, 05:46:26 PM
They have interviewed Murat.


That's one of the things that I really don't understand about Hideho and her "campaign". There never WAS any blood found, let alone who any may have belonged to.

She claims to be some kind of expert tutor on the files for her fan club, but she still doesn't appear to have grasped the basics of the forensic results.





Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 05:49:25 PM
That's one of the things that I really don't understand about Hideho and her "campaign". There never WAS any blood found. She claims to be some kind of tutor on the files for her fan club, but she still doesn't appear to have grasped the basics of the forensic results.

The word blood is not used once in John Lowe's report ....

ETA: I tend to assume blood was found as a courtesy to Keela.

Only stuff she reacted to was sent to the FSS and she is not trained to react to anything else.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:51:59 PM
Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert....corroborated Eddie's  alert being that of blood only

Not necessarily.

Why could Eddie`s alert not be to cadaver contaminant, with Keela`s to blood at the same spot?

How have you ruled that out and concluded that both dogs alerted only to blood?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 06, 2015, 05:54:13 PM
They have interviewed Murat.



They interviewed Murat... so what? None of the hairs analysed in 5A even corresponded to his mtDNA profile.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 05:54:55 PM
Not necessarily.

Why could Eddie`s alert not be to cadaver contaminant, with Keela`s to blood at the same spot?

How have you ruled that out and concluded that both dogs alerted only to blood?

Because both dogs are trained to react to the scent of blood.

So yes.

Necessarily!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:56:38 PM
Keela alerted to human blood which corroborated Eddie's alert.

You don't seem to have learnt anything, do you?

Keela alerted only to human blood.

Eddie alerted to human blood and cadaver scent.

So where both dogs alert in the same spot, the provenance of the alert has to be blood.

Or Keela has alerted falsely.

Or both dogs have alerted falsely.

An alert from Keela (assuming an alert within trained parameters!) is blood!


Which does not rule out a cadaver contaminant alert by Eddie at the same spot.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:59:44 PM
Because both dogs are trained to react to the scent of blood.

So yes.

Necessarily!

No.........You are mistaken.

If a cadaver has been removed from a site with only traces of blood left behind; how do you know that the VRD has not alerted to cadaver contaminant?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 06:01:37 PM
Eddie couldn't make up his mind whether there was, or whether there wasn't, a scent on cuddle-cat.

And despite not being able to find a trace of any scent on clothing in the villa, he (apparently) could find a scent (on exactly the same clothing!) in the gym.

Most bizarre ...

What is more suspicious is the washing and getting rid of her missing daughter's scent on CC.

We all hope for a miracle for Maddy Telegraph
By Liz Hunt
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 10/05/2007
 
It is grubby now, a little battered and undoubtedly tear-stained. But the pink soft toy that Kate McCann has hugged close to her over this interminable week, the only remaining physical link with her daughter, is becoming the focus for the thoughts, fears, prayers and dwindling hopes of all of us.

'Gerry paused over Madeleine, who – a typical doctor’s observation, this – was lying almost in "the recovery position" with Cuddle Cat, the toy her godfather, John Corner, had bought her, and her comfort blanket up near her head, and Gerry thought how gorgeous, how lovely-looking she was and how lucky he was.'
 
David James Smith Timesonline 16 December 2007

Instead, look for a midsize dog that never tires of playing with a tennis ball or pull toy. Eventually, you will teach the dog to associate the smell of death with its toy by making the toy smell like death. Your dog should be exposed to, and trained to find, all sorts of dead bodies — on varied terrain, day or night, rain or shine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0

Talking about the night she went missing, she said: "I can't remember when I picked Cuddle Cat up. I don't think I did touch Cuddle Cat. I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. "I can't actually remember when I collected Cuddle Cat."  &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 06:02:23 PM
Mr Amaral linked him to the McCanns?
Wasn`t it the McCanns and/or friends who felt that Murat was involved in some way?
Is that the link to Murat, along with the suspicions of a journalist?

No ... if you read the files you will see that the PJ themselves were very suspicious of Robert Murat's behaviour and noted instances of it which caused concern.

Three of the McCann party identified him as taking part in the search for Madeleine on the 3rd.  They were not alone in doing so.  If memory serves ~ Sylvia Baptista did in one of her statements, as did the sisters Annie Wiltshire and Jayne Jensen and I believe a barrister.
I think it is obvious that a person resembling Robert Murat must have been mistaken for him.  I believe he did translate for one of the McCann friends.

If Mr Amaral made a connection between the McCanns and Murat, as in so many other instances he was entirely wrong. IMO.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:05:37 PM

Which does not rule out a cadaver contaminant alert by Eddie at the same spot.

Yes, it does.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:07:14 PM
What is more suspicious is the washing and getting rid of her missing daughter's scent on CC.

We all hope for a miracle for Maddy Telegraph
By Liz Hunt
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 10/05/2007
 
It is grubby now, a little battered and undoubtedly tear-stained. But the pink soft toy that Kate McCann has hugged close to her over this interminable week, the only remaining physical link with her daughter, is becoming the focus for the thoughts, fears, prayers and dwindling hopes of all of us.

'Gerry paused over Madeleine, who – a typical doctor’s observation, this – was lying almost in "the recovery position" with Cuddle Cat, the toy her godfather, John Corner, had bought her, and her comfort blanket up near her head, and Gerry thought how gorgeous, how lovely-looking she was and how lucky he was.'
 
David James Smith Timesonline 16 December 2007

Instead, look for a midsize dog that never tires of playing with a tennis ball or pull toy. Eventually, you will teach the dog to associate the smell of death with its toy by making the toy smell like death. Your dog should be exposed to, and trained to find, all sorts of dead bodies — on varied terrain, day or night, rain or shine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0

Talking about the night she went missing, she said: "I can't remember when I picked Cuddle Cat up. I don't think I did touch Cuddle Cat. I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. "I can't actually remember when I collected Cuddle Cat."  &%+((£

Why do you suppose Portuguese police, way back in May 2007, never took the toy for forensic analysis?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 06:10:52 PM
What is more suspicious is the washing and getting rid of her missing daughter's scent on CC.

We all hope for a miracle for Maddy Telegraph
By Liz Hunt
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 10/05/2007
 
It is grubby now, a little battered and undoubtedly tear-stained. But the pink soft toy that Kate McCann has hugged close to her over this interminable week, the only remaining physical link with her daughter, is becoming the focus for the thoughts, fears, prayers and dwindling hopes of all of us.

'Gerry paused over Madeleine, who – a typical doctor’s observation, this – was lying almost in "the recovery position" with Cuddle Cat, the toy her godfather, John Corner, had bought her, and her comfort blanket up near her head, and Gerry thought how gorgeous, how lovely-looking she was and how lucky he was.'
 
David James Smith Timesonline 16 December 2007

Instead, look for a midsize dog that never tires of playing with a tennis ball or pull toy. Eventually, you will teach the dog to associate the smell of death with its toy by making the toy smell like death. Your dog should be exposed to, and trained to find, all sorts of dead bodies — on varied terrain, day or night, rain or shine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0

Talking about the night she went missing, she said: "I can't remember when I picked Cuddle Cat up. I don't think I did touch Cuddle Cat. I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. "I can't actually remember when I collected Cuddle Cat."  &%+((£

Actually what should be causing comment is that Cuddle Cat along with Madeleine's pink blanket were not bagged as evidence immediately the police arrived on the scene on the 3rd May.

Both items had been in immediate contact with her and could even have had a foreign trace on them.  Forensic examination of CC at the time would almost certainly have had more value than Eddie tossing him around for a plaything.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 06:11:59 PM
Yes, it does.

No.........You are mistaken.

If a cadaver has been removed from a site with only traces of blood left behind; how do you know that the VRD has not alerted to cadaver contaminant?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 06:12:20 PM
Why do you suppose Portuguese police, way back in May 2007, never took the toy for forensic analysis?

Great minds etc ... LOL
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:14:04 PM
No.........You are mistaken.

If a cadaver has been removed from a site with only traces of blood left behind; how do you know that the VRD has not alerted to cadaver contaminant?

Because the dog is trained to react to blood.  The reaction of the blood dog confirms blood which a cadaver dog will inevitably also react to if deployed in the same area.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 06:19:47 PM
Because the dog is trained to react to blood.  The reaction of the blood dog confirms blood which a cadaver dog will inevitably also react to if deployed in the same area.

You cannot disregard or negate the point that a cadaver contaminant alert can occur at the site from which a cadaver has been removed leaving blood traces behind.

Such illogicality implies that each time blood is present a cadaver alert cannot occur at the same site!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:26:26 PM
You cannot disregard or negate the point that a cadaver contaminant alert can occur at the site from which a cadaver has been removed leaving blood traces behind.

Such illogicality implies that each time blood is present a cadaver alert cannot occur at the same site!

Police do not base their suspicions on guess-work.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 06:35:15 PM
Yes, it does.

Afraid not.

Why do you suppose Portuguese police, way back in May 2007, never took the toy for forensic analysis?

The family wasn't the focus in May 2007 . The twins weren't even tested. Too much interference and a media circus.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:35:49 PM
You cannot disregard or negate the point that a cadaver contaminant alert can occur at the site from which a cadaver has been removed leaving blood traces behind.

Such illogicality implies that each time blood is present a cadaver alert cannot occur at the same site!

Uncorroborated cadaver dog alerts are not accepted as evidence precisely because cadaver dogs alert to blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:38:46 PM
Afraid not.

Do what you want with your frayed knots.

The family wasn't the focus in May 2007 . The twins weren't even tested.

Not taking cuddle-cat for forensic analysis was an oversight by the PJ.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2015, 06:40:32 PM
Maybe, though as I recall, it had been laundered within an inch of its life so may not have provided anything useful.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 06:41:48 PM
Police do not base their suspicions on guess-work.

Which can be accepted as your acknowledgement that a cadaver contaminant alert can occur at the same site at which blood is present.

To state categorically that alerts from both blood and VRD dogs must both only be to blood and not cadaver contaminant is misleading.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 06:43:23 PM
Afraid not.

The family wasn't the focus in May 2007 . The twins weren't even tested. Too much interference and a media circus.

Madeleine McCann should rightly have been the focus of the investigation from the minute she was reported missing.  Everything of hers and everything with which she was in close contact should have been taken for examination.

If the abductor had dropped a hair which stuck to either cuddle cat or her blanket ... it would never be found otherwise.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 06:44:52 PM
You cannot disregard or negate the point that a cadaver contaminant alert can occur at the site from which a cadaver has been removed leaving blood traces behind.

Such illogicality implies that each time blood is present a cadaver alert cannot occur at the same site!

So who do you think may have died there on the floor tiles behind the couch, Carew?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 06:45:26 PM
Maybe, though as I recall, it had been laundered within an inch of its life so may not have provided anything useful.

The toy was on Madeleine's bed.

It should have been bagged and sent to forensics.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 06:47:06 PM
The toy was on Madeleine's bed.

It should have been bagged and sent to forensics.

Was her bedding?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 06:52:08 PM
So who do you think may have died there on the floor tiles behind the couch, Carew?

Do you agree that a VRD can alert to cadaver at the same spot that a blood dog alerts to?

That`s the point.

It has been stated that both dogs must have only alerted to blood.

That is misleading because we don`t actually know, do we?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2015, 06:53:05 PM
Was her bedding?

No.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 06:54:36 PM

Do you agree that a VRD can alert to cadaver at the same spot that a blood dog alerts to?

That`s the point.

It has been stated that both dogs must have only alerted to blood.

That is misleading because we don`t actually know, do we?

No it's not the point.

If there is blood in the vicinity, a cadaver dog (should alert).  Speculation about "cadaver scent" is precisely that, speculation and guesswork unless there is corroboration.

Corroboration can come, alone, from DNA uncovered by scientists in a laboratory.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 07:01:03 PM
Was her bedding?

I was sure I had seen that the cleaners were allowed entry quite early on and the bedding taken away for washing;  I have had a look and can't find a cite for that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 07:02:22 PM
There is very remote chance that the minuscule amounts of blood that Keela can detect, was not what Eddie alerted too.
However IIRC there was no DNA belonging to the McCanns found on that tile area, so it would not be a case of removing a cadaver and leaving some of that body blood/fluid behind, if it was Madeleine.
I'm sure you can understand why Mr Grime took two dogs. It was to eliminate any alerts of blood be Eddie.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 07:04:06 PM
Madeleine McCann should rightly have been the focus of the investigation from the minute she was reported missing.  Everything of hers and everything with which she was in close contact should have been taken for examination.

If the abductor had dropped a hair which stuck to either cuddle cat or her blanket ... it would never be found otherwise.

Hairs on bed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2316.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 07:12:50 PM
There is very remote chance that the minuscule amounts of blood that Keela can detect, was not what Eddie alerted too.
However IIRC there was no DNA belonging to the McCanns found on that tile area, so it would not be a case of removing a cadaver and leaving some of that body blood/fluid behind, if it was Madeleine.
I'm sure you can understand why Mr Grime took two dogs. It was to eliminate any alerts of blood be Eddie.

I think it is usual to have at least two different teams working a case, Anna.  Different handlers and different dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 07:14:15 PM
Hairs on bed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2316.jpg)

Yes the initial forensic team found hairs. None of the bedding appears to have gone to forensic lab, except for the counterpane on the bed next to the window which was thought to have a stain of something other than what it turned out to be....A child's saliva.
I believe luminol was used and only shows bodily fluids.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 07:16:18 PM
I think it is usual to have at least two different teams working a case, Anna.  Different handlers and different dogs.

Yes, a one-to-one handler to dog ratio at the same crime scene.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 06, 2015, 07:17:29 PM
No it's not the point.

If there is blood in the vicinity, a cadaver dog (should alert).  Speculation about "cadaver scent" is precisely that, speculation and guesswork unless there is corroboration.

Corroboration can come, alone, from DNA uncovered by scientists in a laboratory.

To state as fact that if both dogs alert, then it must be only to blood is misleading.

That`s why I stuck to the point, because in my view such a categorical assertion could give an impression that cadaver contaminant was never present in this case, rather than unconfirmed/unknown.

There is a question mark over it, isn`t there and that`s the bottom line surely?


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 07:17:46 PM
I think it is usual to have at least two different teams working a case, Anna.  Different handlers and different dogs.

I believe you are correct, Brietta. Although Mr Grime owned both dogs, IIRC one of them had a different handler.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 07:19:36 PM
Yes, a one-to-one handler to dog ratio at the same crime scene.

Grime does one to one. One at a time. They do different jobs. That's why there's two dogs  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 06, 2015, 07:21:33 PM
Hairs on bed.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2316.jpg)

Hmmm. Yes.  Six of which never made it to the lab. What did the  PJ forensic squad do with them?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2015, 07:26:16 PM
Who says that they didn't reach the lab?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 07:26:44 PM
Grime does one to one. One at a time. They do different jobs. That's why there's two dogs  8(0(*

No, no.

One handler and one dog at the same crime scene.

That was the ratio in the second enquiry.  Two dogs and two handlers.

Not one handler handling two dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 07:28:32 PM
I believe you are correct, Brietta. Although Mr Grime owned both dogs, IIRC one of them had a different handler.

At SYP Ellis handled Keela.

http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/

PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 07:36:37 PM
To state as fact that if both dogs alert, then it must be only to blood is misleading.

That`s why I stuck to the point, because in my view such a categorical assertion could give an impression that cadaver contaminant was never present in this case, rather than unconfirmed/unknown.

There is a question mark over it, isn`t there and that`s the bottom line surely?

I think it all boils down to corroboration, Carew.
This topic is concerning Madeleine McCann and an alert by a blood dog and a cadaver dog(who could also scent blood).
It therefore needed corroboration(as do all dog alerts really).
Since her DNA was not found in that area it means that it was not her blood. If as you thought a cadaver was alerted too, by Eddie and the blood was left behind(which was alerted too by Keela), then it was not Madeleine.
 
However I must agree with you that it could have come from any another cadaver.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 07:37:59 PM
Who says that they didn't reach the lab?

Have you seen any Lab results? If so please share
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2015, 07:40:31 PM
Have you seen any Lab results? If so please share

No I haven't - I was asking who said they never went there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 07:44:27 PM
I think it all boils down to corroboration, Carew.
This topic is concerning Madeleine McCann and an alert by a blood dog and a cadaver dog(who could also scent blood).
It therefore needed corroboration(as do all dog alerts really).
Since her DNA was not found in that area it means that it was not her blood. If as you thought a cadaver was alerted too, by Eddie and the blood was left behind(which was alerted too by Keela), then it was not Madeleine.
 
However I must agree with you that it could have come from any another cadaver.

The Eddie and Keela combination was a half-way house to attainment of the optimal combination, realised with Keela and Morse partnership.

This was an innovation of the US forensic canine program that matched a cadaver dog, desensitised to blood, with a second dog trained to react to nothing else (so that the potential advantage of finding blood was not lost).

Moreover, by having a cadaver dog desensitised to blood, that (in theory) increased confidence that if a cadaver dog alerted, it had, indeed, detected cadaver scent.

That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the uncorroborated alerts of Morse were accepted as stand-alone  evidence of murder.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 08:00:06 PM
The Eddie and Keela combination was a half-way house to attainment of the optimal combination, realised with Keela and Morse partnership.

This was an innovation of the US forensic canine program that matched a cadaver dog, desensitised to blood, with a second dog trained to react to nothing else (so that the potential advantage of finding blood was not lost).

Moreover, by having a cadaver dog desensitised to blood, that (in theory) increased confidence that if a cadaver dog alerted, it had, indeed, detected cadaver scent.

That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the uncorroborated alerts of Morse were accepted as stand-alone  evidence of murder.

Eddie was not desensitised to the scent of blood, Ferryman. This where confusion arises.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 06, 2015, 08:00:16 PM
At SYP Ellis handled Keela.

http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/

PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable

John Ellis other dog was border collie Frankie.

When faced with a “clean” crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela’s other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun. “We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood,” Mr Ellis said. “It’s not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle.” - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/#sthash.fPLUNEvu.dpuf

Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.
http://news.sky.com/story/395084/keelas-nose-makes-her-top-dog

Constable John Ellis, said he realised the dog operated by his team-mate Martin Grime, a dog called "Eddie", a Springer Spaniel, had found something, because of his barking.

He added he continued searching with his dog "Frankie" a Border Collie, and that when he approached Constable Grime`s position, "there was a distinct smell of decay".

Constable Grime had told the court that as he searched the hedgerows and riverbank "Eddie" jumped into the stream and at one stage was being swept away by the current.

However, the dog managed to swim back up and jumped unto a pile of stones on the further bank and started barking.

"I immediately noted that he had found something and I made my way to the bank and saw what he had found," said Constable Grime.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 08:10:35 PM
Which bit of the fact that only one handler will handle only one dog at the same crime scene and why?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 06, 2015, 08:36:59 PM
Who says that they didn't reach the lab?

There are several threads on this. Here's one:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1246.15
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 08:48:40 PM
Eddie was not desensitised to the scent of blood, Ferryman. This where confusion arises.

Agreed.

But Morse was ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on July 06, 2015, 08:50:30 PM
There are several threads on this. Here's one:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1246.15

Thank you. I shall read that later
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 08:55:57 PM
I believe you are correct, Brietta. Although Mr Grime owned both dogs, IIRC one of them had a different handler.

I meant cadaver dogs, Anna.  If one team's dog alerts to cadaver ... the next does a blind test if it also alerts in the same place it is corroboration.  Then the task is to locate the body and / or forensic evidence to bring to court.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 09:00:28 PM
The Eddie and Keela combination was a half-way house to attainment of the optimal combination, realised with Keela and Morse partnership.

This was an innovation of the US forensic canine program that matched a cadaver dog, desensitised to blood, with a second dog trained to react to nothing else (so that the potential advantage of finding blood was not lost).

Moreover, by having a cadaver dog desensitised to blood, that (in theory) increased confidence that if a cadaver dog alerted, it had, indeed, detected cadaver scent.

That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the uncorroborated alerts of Morse were accepted as stand-alone  evidence of murder.

Morse also had very recent accredited independent training records in which he scored highly.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2015, 09:18:43 PM
Agreed.

But Morse was ...

I have read something somewhere about desensitising cadaver dogs from blood or maybe even just to desist from alerting to blood? ...I can't find any reference to it at the moment.

I'm not quite sure I can get my head entirely around it though.  No-one knows exactly what components of decomposition the 'body' dogs alert to ... and there are different scents from different stages in decomposition ... and all human decomposition has blood as a component.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2015, 09:33:37 PM
I have read something somewhere about desensitising cadaver dogs from blood or maybe even just to desist from alerting to blood? ...I can't find any reference to it at the moment.

I'm not quite sure I can get my head entirely around it though.  No-one knows exactly what components of decomposition the 'body' dogs alert to ... and there are different scents from different stages in decomposition ... and all human decomposition has blood as a component.

I don't know how you desensitise a dog to a specific scent.  But you can clearly train a dog not to bark and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark at specific times and to specific scents, but at no other time or scent.

How do you train a dog not to bark at cats (for example?)

You clearly can ...

And I'm sure you can desensitise a dog to the scent of blood ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 06, 2015, 10:22:52 PM
Uncorroborated cadaver dog alerts are not accepted as evidence precisely because cadaver dogs alert to blood.

Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 06, 2015, 10:32:03 PM
I meant cadaver dogs, Anna.  If one team's dog alerts to cadaver ... the next does a blind test if it also alerts in the same place it is corroboration.  Then the task is to locate the body and / or forensic evidence to bring to court.

Sorry, Brietta, I misunderstood your post. I didn't know that they used two teams of cadaver dogs nowadays. Makes sense, I suppose.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 07, 2015, 12:17:49 AM
Agreed.

But Morse was ...

Rex A. Stockham, forensic canine program manager for the FBI, also testified about Morse on Wednesday. "I'm aware of no false positives for Morse," he said. "We've never had any case yet where the dog has responded and it's been shown to be incorrect."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id421.html

An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee. The scent detection threshold of the dog is greatly enhanced.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.

Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.

He said: “His normal reaction is to bark. On this occasion he started to dig. As soon as he started to dig I called him back.”

The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.

The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com/2010/02/sniffer-dog-detected-body-in-orkney.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 06:20:23 AM
Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.

I am precisely right in every last detail ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 06:41:01 AM
An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers

EVRD is a classification limited to Grime and Eddie.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 07, 2015, 06:49:55 AM
An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers

EVRD is a classification limited to Grime and Eddie.

This is true.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 09:32:31 AM
Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.

Yes, Ferryman is wrong to keep stating this as fact.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 09:33:01 AM
I am precisely right in every last detail ...

No, you are not.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 09:53:31 AM
Not quite, cadaver dog alerts are not evidence in England in the absence of a body....and there is no such thing as corroboration of their alerts in the absence of a body, or body parts, unless other  circumstantial and/or anecdotal evidence is combined with the alerts. You are also wrong to state that both dogs alerting in the same place MUST be an indication of blood only. The absence of corroboration of a "cadaver" alerg in the absence of a body is the main reason.

I believe Scottish Law allowed cadaver dog indications to be presented in a murder trial.  There were alerts to the boot of the accused's car and an area in the workplace where the victim and the accused were known to have been.
(Ms Pilley had been caught by CCTV on her way to work and almost at the entrance although not entering ... the man convicted of her murder was at work in the building for part of that day but left to go on an apparently unscheduled work related journey.)

Suzanne Pilley's body has not been discovered till this day.  But there was sufficient evidence to convince the jury of the guilt of the accused person. (which he has appealed unsuccessfully to the High Court in England - but continues to protest his innocence and the case is under review in Scotland).

I am unsure of the part played by the dogs in the trial for the simple reason there was no song and dance about it at the time or since.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:00:08 AM
I believe Scottish Law allowed cadaver dog indications to be presented in a murder trial.  There were alerts to the boot of the accused's car and an area in the workplace where the victim and the accused were known to have been.
(Ms Pilley had been caught by CCTV on her way to work and almost at the entrance although not entering ... the man convicted of her murder was at work in the building for part of that day but left to go on an apparently unscheduled work related journey.)

Suzanne Pilley's body has not been discovered till this day.  But there was sufficient evidence to convince the jury of the guilt of the accused person. (which he has appealed unsuccessfully to the High Court in England - but continues to protest his innocence and the case is under review in Scotland).

I am unsure of the part played by the dogs in the trial for the simple reason there was no song and dance about it at the time or since.

Scottish law allows uncorroborated dog alerts as evidence, true!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 10:05:44 AM
Yes, Ferryman is wrong to keep stating this as fact.

Both dogs alerted to blood.  Therefore if both alert and blood is found Ferryman is correct to state as a fact they alerted to blood for the simple reason that is the fact of the matter.

Which begs the question as to the 'alerts' attributed to the dogs in the Renault Scenic.

Keela alerted to blood in the boot of the vehicle.
Eddie did not alert to blood in the boot of the vehicle.

Eddie alerted to cellular material - which must have been blood since the doner is alive - on the key fob in the door pocket of the vehicle.
Keela did not alert to the key fob or the place it where it was stored.

Work that one out.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
Pantomime season

Oh yes, I am ...

Well, yes, it does descend to pantomime level to maintain as fact that if both dogs alert at the site from which a cadaver has been removed it must be only to blood, never cadaver contaminant.

On the whole though, it is obvious that the MO is to put across as often and as authoritively as possible that any alert in and around the McCanns must have been only to the nosebleeds/shaving related incidents from ages past.

Never ever must there remain even a hint of the possibility it might be to the cadaver of the missing person.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 10:14:52 AM
Scottish law allows uncorroborated dog alerts as evidence, true!

I know nothing about when or if it has ever been allowed or mentioned in a Scottish court before or since.  It was briefly mentioned in only one newspaper article covering the trial.
As in other cases of missing persons we saw the dogs working in news broadcasts ... usually it leads to the discovery of remains.

Murder convictions without a body are rare and I have no idea if such evidence has been allowed before ... for example in another high profile Scottish case, that of Arlene Fraser, which led to her husband's conviction for murder ... I have never heard of 'dog' evidence of any kind being mentioned.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 10:26:10 AM
Well, yes, it does descend to pantomime level to maintain as fact that if both dogs alert at the site from which a cadaver has been removed it must be only to blood, never cadaver contaminant.

On the whole though, it is obvious that the MO is to put across as often and as authoritively as possible that any alert in and around the McCanns must have been only to the nosebleeds/shaving related incidents from ages past.

Never ever must there remain even a hint of the possibility it might be to the cadaver of the missing person.

Are you really questioning the little forensic evidence retrieved from apartment 5A?

There was no forensic evidence that the blood found in the McCann residence was theirs or more specifically Madeleine's .
There was forensic evidence of historical bleeds attributed to other doners - notably that of a GNR officer.

There is no evidence to suggest that Madeleine McCann is dead ... and I really do wish you would read and digest what Marting Grime said about the value of the dogs' alerts in his report.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 10:38:40 AM
Are you really questioning the little forensic evidence retrieved from apartment 5A?

There was no forensic evidence that the blood found in the McCann residence was theirs or more specifically Madeleine's .
There was forensic evidence of historical bleeds attributed to other doners - notably that of a GNR officer.

There is no evidence to suggest that Madeleine McCann is dead ... and I really do wish you would read and digest what Marting Grime said about the value of the dogs' alerts in his report.


Brietta........I am concerned that it is being presented as "fact" that if both dogs alert at the same spot, then it must be blood to which they both reacted.

Quite simply that.

As a definitive statement of fact it is misleading.

No amount of authoritive wordy justification will alter that principle.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:42:19 AM
Yes, Ferryman is wrong to keep stating this as fact.

It seems to be tolerated here, though.

I will explain this as simply and clearly as I can.

Cadaver dogs alert to blood

Blood dogs alert to blood.

So where a blood dog alerts, there is blood.

And if a cadaver dog alerts in the same place, the cadaver dog, also, will be alerting to blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 10:51:10 AM
I will explain this as simply and clearly as I can.

Cadaver dogs alert to blood

Blood dogs alert to blood.

So where a blood dog alerts, there is blood.

And if a cadaver dog alerts in the same place, the cadaver dog, also, will be alerting to blood.

No, you are mistaken.

The alert by the cadaver dog in the same place does not mean definitively that only blood is being alerted to.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 10:52:03 AM

Brietta........I am concerned that it is being presented as "fact" that if both dogs alert at the same spot, then it must be blood to which they both reacted.

Quite simply that.

As a definitive statement of fact it is misleading.

No amount of authoritive wordy justification will alter that principle.


Similarly I have concerns that if the cadaver dog has 'alerted' and the blood dog not, the assumption must be that human remains or human remains contaminant were present.

However I have no issues with two dogs both trained on human blood alerting to a substance which proves to be human blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 07, 2015, 10:55:09 AM
When the first alert was for cadaver scent then the 2nd most probably is. Did you notice how long it took Keela to detect the minutest blood in that area where Eddie alerted.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 11:04:41 AM

Similarly I have concerns that if the cadaver dog has 'alerted' and the blood dog not, the assumption must be that human remains or human remains contaminant were present.

However I have no issues with two dogs both trained on human blood alerting to a substance which proves to be human blood.

I agree with you.

It is however unwise to state definitively that only blood alone must have prompted the cadaver dog alert.

If blood was actually found at the site alerted to by both dogs it does not disprove or rule out the presence of cadaver contaminant also.

That is the only point I have issue with.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 11:07:02 AM

Brietta........I am concerned that it is being presented as "fact" that if both dogs alert at the same spot, then it must be blood to which they both reacted.

Quite simply that.

As a definitive statement of fact it is misleading.

No amount of authoritive wordy justification will alter that principle.

I see what you mean. It's possible that Eddie reacted to blood and another human decomp substance at the same time, whereas Keela would have only reacted to any blood present (assuming that she's always accurate...). A potential example is the Jersey sex clean-up tissues. In that instance, was Eddie alerting to a speck of blood or blood and sex fluids?

I have a caveat, however. Grime states that Keela will only react in the physical presence of blood, but he says nothing about whether Eddie would react to the residual smell of blood when no longer physically present. As the apartment had been rented out numerous times, I don't see how something as innocent as a bloodied plaster or sock that had been removed prior to the inspection can be ruled out.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 11:24:09 AM
I see what you mean. It's possible that Eddie reacted to blood and another human decomp substance at the same time, whereas Keela would have only reacted to any blood present (assuming that she's always accurate...). A potential example is the Jersey sex clean-up tissues. In that instance, was Eddie alerting to a speck of blood or blood and sex fluids?

I have a caveat, however. Grime states that Keela will only react in the physical presence of blood, but he says nothing about whether Eddie would react to the residual smell of blood when no longer physically present. As the apartment had been rented out numerous times, I don't see how something as innocent as a bloodied plaster or sock that had been removed prior to the inspection can be ruled out.

Quite.

It will generally be point of principle if I challenge what seems to be a misleading statement.

I readily accept that my knowledge of the case is limited in comparison to most who post here.

I just don`t think it is wise to make definitive judgements about what the cadaver dog alerted to.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 11:32:11 AM
A small point is that there was no forensic evidence that there was any blood anywhere in 5A or in the car. We're all assuming that the trace DNA must have been blood because that's all that Keela was trained for.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 11:36:19 AM
Quite.

It will generally be point of principle if I challenge what seems to be a misleading statement.

I readily accept that my knowledge of the case is limited in comparison to most who post here.

I just don`t think it is wise to make definitive judgements about what the cadaver dog alerted to.

On the other hand, I find it simplistic to assume that Eddie-only alert + missing child (- established other death) = child died in 5A.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 11:39:44 AM
You are not when the first alert was for cadaver scent then the 2nd most probably is. Did you notice how long it took Keela to detect the minutest blood in that area where Eddie alerted.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Initially when one starts to read Madeleine McCann's case it is with the assumption that everything was sequential with one reported event making a smooth transition to another.

I don't know how it works in other investigations of this type ... but when considering the events of the 3rd May 2007 ... there are many significant gaps in the narrative.

For example ... until fairly recently I thought Jane Tanner's sighting and the Smith sighting had been reported to the police at the start of the investigation ... that the Smith sighting was not reported till a fortnight after the event was a bit of a puzzle.

Between Madeleine's disappearance and the visit from the dogs the fact that four other families had holidayed in the apartment from which she had disappeared is very significant.


I noticed a post today (sorry, I don't remember which one or which thread) in which the use of luminol was mentioned.
This called to mind a conversation (soundtrack of dog video) Martin Grime had with the officer present when he asked what had been used in the earlier blood investigations as luminol interferes with the dogs' sensory abilities.


**snip
It is often used as a last resort, since the chemical reaction can destroy the very evidence it reveals, but it can still prove incredibly useful. For example, it might reveal an assailant’s shoe prints or show investigators where to look more closely. Blood on carpet that may be invisible to the naked eye can be revealed, prompting investigators to look for much larger, visible stains in the wood beneath. Those working with luminol must be wary of false positives, however, as it also reacts to the presence of urine, copper, and horseradish sauce.
http://listverse.com/2014/05/29/10-fascinating-facts-about-forensics/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 12:08:43 PM
No, you are mistaken.

The alert by the cadaver dog in the same place does not mean definitively that only blood is being alerted to.

Re-read what I said. 

If both dogs react to blood and both dogs react in the same spot, both will be reacting to blood.

Your point (which I will make for you) is that conceivably the cadaver dog will be reacting to blood and something else besides.

That might (conceivably) be true.

But since cadaver scent is not something you can capture and analyse (as you can blood) that always only ever be an assumption unless you find a body or other remains. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 12:31:48 PM
Initially when one starts to read Madeleine McCann's case it is with the assumption that everything was sequential with one reported event making a smooth transition to another.

I don't know how it works in other investigations of this type ... but when considering the events of the 3rd May 2007 ... there are many significant gaps in the narrative.

For example ... until fairly recently I thought Jane Tanner's sighting and the Smith sighting had been reported to the police at the start of the investigation ... that the Smith sighting was not reported till a fortnight after the event was a bit of a puzzle.

Between Madeleine's disappearance and the visit from the dogs the fact that four other families had holidayed in the apartment from which she had disappeared is very significant.


I noticed a post today (sorry, I don't remember which one or which thread) in which the use of luminol was mentioned.
This called to mind a conversation (soundtrack of dog video) Martin Grime had with the officer present when he asked what had been used in the earlier blood investigations as luminol interferes with the dogs' sensory abilities.


**snip
It is often used as a last resort, since the chemical reaction can destroy the very evidence it reveals, but it can still prove incredibly useful. For example, it might reveal an assailant’s shoe prints or show investigators where to look more closely. Blood on carpet that may be invisible to the naked eye can be revealed, prompting investigators to look for much larger, visible stains in the wood beneath. Those working with luminol must be wary of false positives, however, as it also reacts to the presence of urine, copper, and horseradish sauce.
http://listverse.com/2014/05/29/10-fascinating-facts-about-forensics/

Luminol also reacts with some cleaning agents containing bleach (cf the Kercher case).

It's not clear whether luminol or a black torch was used in 5A, nor is it entirely clear where or how the initial team searched for blood on 4 May.

It was quite possibly a black torch as that was what was used in the Cipriano home (I've posted about it somewhere on here). The problem is that a black torch will also show up traces of sweat - and that's one of my issues in that case: an age-old speck of blood within a patch of a sweaty handprint could be misinterpreted as a large patch  of blood.

"Pure" sweat apparently doesn't contain DNA, but would do if combined with skin cells.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 12:35:41 PM
Re-read what I said. 

If both dogs react to blood and both dogs react in the same spot, both will be reacting to blood.

Your point (which I will make for you) is that conceivably the cadaver dog will be reacting to blood and something else besides.

That might (conceivably) be true.

But since cadaver scent is not something you can capture and analyse (as you can blood) that always only ever be an assumption unless you find a body or other remains.

I have no problem with that.

I'm still curious as to whether Eddie would have reacted to the residual scent of a bloodied plaster or other item or not.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 12:40:25 PM
On the other hand, I find it simplistic to assume that Eddie-only alert + missing child (- established other death) = child died in 5A.

I have never assumed that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 12:50:56 PM
Re-read what I said. 

If both dogs react to blood and both dogs react in the same spot, both will be reacting to blood.

Your point (which I will make for you) is that conceivably the cadaver dog will be reacting to blood and something else besides.

That might (conceivably) be true.

But since cadaver scent is not something you can capture and analyse (as you can blood) that always only ever be an assumption unless you find a body or other remains.


Thankyou for acknowledging that possibility.
 

You didn`t need to make the point for me though. I`d made it for myself several times already.

You have asserted several times on this thread........as below....... that alerts by both dogs must indicate only blood, thereby ruling out cadaver contaminant.


Quote from: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:51:59 PM

Not necessarily.

Why could Eddie`s alert not be to cadaver contaminant, with Keela`s to blood at the same spot?

How have you ruled that out and concluded that both dogs alerted only to blood?



Ferryman
Because both dogs are trained to react to the scent of blood.

So yes.

Necessarily!



.........and another one!

Quote from: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:56:38 PM

Which does not rule out a cadaver contaminant alert by Eddie at the same spot.



Ferryman
Yes, it does.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 12:54:55 PM

Thankyou for acknowledging that possibility.
 
(About time, too! )

You have asserted several times on this thread........as below....... that alerts by both dogs must indicate only blood, thereby ruling out cadaver contaminant.


Quote from: Carew on July 06, 2015, 05:51:59 PM

Not necessarily.

Why could Eddie`s alert not be to cadaver contaminant, with Keela`s to blood at the same spot?

How have you ruled that out and concluded that both dogs alerted only to blood?



Ferryman
Because both dogs are trained to react to the scent of blood.

So yes.

Necessarily!

If you don't find other remains then the only (safe!) assumption is that both dogs have alerted to blood.

Since it seems unlikely that Eddie and Keela ever worked together on the same case before PdL, that is all the more true.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 07, 2015, 01:25:50 PM
I'm surprised the peeps who think dogs are "incredibly unreliable" haven't found and grasped the pregnancy straw yet?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 01:30:30 PM
I'm surprised the peeps who think dogs are "incredibly unreliable" haven't found and grasped the pregnancy straw yet?

Eddie's track-record from PdL doesn't inspire confidence.

Did he scent something on cuddle cat?

Or didn't he?

Why could he (apparently!) detect scent on clothes in the gym he could find no trace of (that is scent!) in the villa?

All most odd ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 07, 2015, 01:48:18 PM
Eddie's track-record from PdL doesn't inspire confidence.

Did he scent something on cuddle cat?

Or didn't he?

Why could he (apparently!) detect scent on clothes in the gym he could find no trace of (that is scent!) in the villa?

All most odd ...
If you watch the first alert in the Rua Das Flores house video, it is not to the cat, it is to the last thing sniffed, which answers both your questions.
By a straw not yet grasped at I meant k9 pregnancy surprised you haven't used that yet?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 01:52:16 PM
Madeleine McCann should rightly have been the focus of the investigation from the minute she was reported missing.  Everything of hers and everything with which she was in close contact should have been taken for examination.

If the abductor had dropped a hair which stuck to either cuddle cat or her blanket ... it would never be found otherwise.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.  Regardless of what has been subsequently claimed, the initial response was (due to the fact that there was no forced entry to the apartment and that one of the external doors was left unlocked) to a child who might have got out on her own and got lost.  Bagging articles for DNA testing was not considered a serious requirement until hours later.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 01:57:20 PM

Do you agree that a VRD can alert to cadaver at the same spot that a blood dog alerts to?

That`s the point.

It has been stated that both dogs must have only alerted to blood.

That is misleading because we don`t actually know, do we?

Absolutely, Keela alerted to blood while Eddie alerted to blood and cadaver.  Both dogs alerting at the same spot could be an indicator of blood or both cadaver and blood.  Unless a forensic sample is found and independently tested giving a positive for blood or cadaver then there is no way of determining what the dogs found.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 02:12:16 PM
Absolutely, Keela alerted to blood while Eddie alerted to blood and cadaver.  Both dogs alerting at the same spot could be an indicator of blood or both cadaver and blood.  Unless a forensic sample is found and independently tested giving a positive for blood or cadaver then there is no way of determining what the dogs found.

The legal assumption (or the assumption that would be made in court) is that both dogs alerted to blood in the absence of anything corroborating otherwise.

And since there are at least two question-marks over the provenance of Eddie's alerts in PdL, none of that inspires confidence.

Before PdL I don't believe there is any record of Eddie and Keela working on the same case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 02:17:25 PM
I don't know how you desensitise a dog to a specific scent.  But you can clearly train a dog not to bark and the trick with Eddie (and other dogs of his type) is still cleverer; the canine equivalents of elective mutes, trained to bark at specific times and to specific scents, but at no other time or scent.

How do you train a dog not to bark at cats (for example?)

You clearly can ...

And I'm sure you can desensitise a dog to the scent of blood ....

The simple answer is that you cannot teach a dog a negative.  A dog which is trained to react to specific substances will only react to those substances.  If you require that the dog will never react to blood then blood will have been meticulously absent from his or her training regime.  It's not a case of ignoring blood, rather a case of reacting to that which they have been taught to react to.  A dog will always smell blood but if trained to find only cadaver then only cadaver it will find.

In order to separate blood from cadaver then three dogs are required.

Dog A reacts only to blood.
Dog B reacts only to cadaver.
Dog C reacts to both.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 02:32:06 PM
I will explain this as simply and clearly as I can.

Cadaver dogs alert to blood

Blood dogs alert to blood.

So where a blood dog alerts, there is blood.

And if a cadaver dog alerts in the same place, the cadaver dog, also, will be alerting to blood.

Not necessarily, the cadaver dog could be alerting to blood or cadaver or both as Carew has already pointed out.  See my reference to 3 dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 02:38:42 PM
A small point is that there was no forensic evidence that there was any blood anywhere in 5A or in the car. We're all assuming that the trace DNA must have been blood because that's all that Keela was trained for.

If a dog is trained to react to blood and subsequently does so then it is a fair bet that blood has been found.

By the same token, if a dog is trained to react to both blood and cadaver and subsequently reacts then the only conclusion which can be drawn is that the substance found was blood, cadaver or even both.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 03:02:41 PM
Not necessarily, the cadaver dog could be alerting to blood or cadaver or both as Carew has already pointed out.  See my reference to 3 dogs.

Pare the statement right down.

If there is blood in one spot inspected by both dogs, both dogs will react to blood.

All else is conditional.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 03:37:26 PM
Pare the statement right down.

If there is blood in one spot inspected by both dogs, both dogs will react to blood.

All else is conditional.

I don't agree.  Unless you apply the 3-dog test, nothing can be guaranteed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 03:42:54 PM
I don't agree.  Unless you apply the 3-dog test, nothing can be guaranteed.

You think that if there is blood present, one dog or other might miss the scent?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 03:46:21 PM
If you watch the first alert in the Rua Das Flores house video, it is not to the cat, it is to the last thing sniffed, which answers both your questions.
By a straw not yet grasped at I meant k9 pregnancy surprised you haven't used that yet?

                                           Good Lord! ... was Eddie pregnant?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 07, 2015, 04:24:41 PM
You think that if there is blood present, one dog or other might miss the scent?

No more than Eddie would miss a cadaver scent.  Both dogs alerting indicated that blood or blood and cadaver had been found.  Unless a cadaver only dog was used there was no way of determining otherwise.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 05:00:09 PM
No more than Eddie would miss a cadaver scent.  Both dogs alerting indicated that blood or blood and cadaver had been found.  Unless a cadaver only dog was used there was no way of determining otherwise.

I beg to differ.  Eddie and Keela were used together for the first time ever in PdL, and we know there was no cadaver odour ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on July 07, 2015, 05:45:36 PM
Both dogs alerting at the same spot does not rule out the possible presence of cadaver contaminant though you said it did.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 07, 2015, 05:50:53 PM
What is the evidence of abduction ferryman ?

You keep stating it without a foundation of evidence to back it up.

As to the prosecutors, they had insufficient evidence to charge anyone.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 07, 2015, 05:51:51 PM
I would go further.... A dog not alerting does not rule out cadaver odour
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 06:05:36 PM
I would go further.... A dog not alerting does not rule out cadaver odour

Well, yes.  There is not a shred of evidence of cadaver odour.

There is evidence of questionable alerts, to clothing in one spot, but no reaction to the same clothing in a different spot.

And cuddle-cat.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 07, 2015, 06:09:09 PM
Well, yes.  There is not a shred of evidence of cadaver odour.

There is evidence of questionable alerts, to clothing in one spot, but no reaction to the same clothing in a different spot.

And cuddle-cat.


When was it shown the dogs did not alert to a body ferryman ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 06:10:57 PM

What is the evidence of abduction ferryman ?

You keep stating it without a foundation of evidence to back it up.

As to the prosecutors, they had insufficient evidence to charge anyone.

The principal evidence of abduction is the absence of evidence of anything else.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 06:27:10 PM

According to his book Mr Amaral had already determined that his theory was the only game in town. 

As far as he was concerned, even before the first sniff occurred, there could only be one outcome ... "Their mission: to find Madeleine’s body and expose those responsible." Amaral Chapter 17.

Thus the mindset for the classic mistake of trying to make the evidence fit the theory distorted the outcome, or lack of it, of the dogs visit.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 07, 2015, 06:31:30 PM
According to his book Mr Amaral had already determined that his theory was the only game in town. 

As far as he was concerned, even before the first sniff occurred, there could only be one outcome ... "Their mission: to find Madeleine’s body and expose those responsible." Amaral Chapter 17.

Thus the mindset for the classic mistake of trying to make the evidence fit the theory distorted the outcome, or lack of it, of the dogs visit.

Whilst the mindset of the mccann supporters says abduction or nothing.

Sounds familiar.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 07, 2015, 06:38:50 PM
Whilst the mindset of the mccann supporters says abduction or nothing.

Sounds familiar.

you can't even get that right...I've always said abduction is by far the most likely
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 07, 2015, 06:39:43 PM
you can't even get that right...I've always said abduction is by far the most likely

Of course dave.

That's why you back it 100%. 8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2015, 07:08:43 PM
Re the Archiving Report

Nevertheless all the possibilities were still there when the case was archived. No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 07:10:09 PM
"More recently, it’s Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder."  Amaral: chapter 17



Actually ... no he did not.  But what is one more inaccuracy in a book which is full of inaccuracies. 

Sometimes mistakes are made and when they are they should be acknowledged as such. 

It is remarkable that the 'field full of bodies' as indicated by the use of ground radar has not become an urban legend or that Eddie's 'alerts' to the infant skull never mention that it was actually a very old coconut shell http://metro.co.uk/2008/05/18/skull-fragment-is-not-bone-145799/   or that the 'alert' in the bunker was to semen and blood.
I don't think there is much to say about a children's home and the discovery of milk teeth.




Jersey ‘graves’ could be ‘Bergerac TV props’
Tuesday 4 Mar 2008 4:39 pm

**snip
A police source told The Times:

The field was turned into a graveyard.

They used fibreglass gravestones but they were going to have a burial scene, so they also actually dug a number of full graves.
The full graves go quite deep. They were filled in, and the places where there had been digging registered on the radar.

No-one realised until one of the local officers pointed it out.”

The source said that when Lenny Harper, the deputy chief officer of Jersey Police, was told the real reason they had found so many suspicious spots was because of Bergerac, “he put his head in his hands and uttered a few choice words.

However they added that the search was now being done with the knowledge that there may be an alternative explanation, The Times claimed.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2008/03/04/jersey-graves-could-be-bergerac-tv-props-23444/#ixzz3fEH9kpQE
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 07:19:01 PM
Nevertheless all the possibilities were still there when the case was archived. No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm


" ... it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment "
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

Seems a rational conclusion and summed up very succinctly ... yet Mr Amaral took it upon himself to write a book in which he levelled the most scurrilous accusations possible at the parents of the missing child whose case he failed to come even close to solving during his tenure.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 07, 2015, 08:13:08 PM
"medium man" should be "average man".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2015, 08:56:45 PM
"More recently, it’s Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder."  Amaral: chapter 17



Actually ... no he did not.  But what is one more inaccuracy in a book which is full of inaccuracies. 

Sometimes mistakes are made and when they are they should be acknowledged as such. 

It is remarkable that the 'field full of bodies' as indicated by the use of ground radar has not become an urban legend or that Eddie's 'alerts' to the infant skull never mention that it was actually a very old coconut shell http://metro.co.uk/2008/05/18/skull-fragment-is-not-bone-145799/   or that the 'alert' in the bunker was to semen and blood.
I don't think there is much to say about a children's home and the discovery of milk teeth.




Jersey ‘graves’ could be ‘Bergerac TV props’
Tuesday 4 Mar 2008 4:39 pm

**snip
A police source told The Times:

The field was turned into a graveyard.

They used fibreglass gravestones but they were going to have a burial scene, so they also actually dug a number of full graves.
The full graves go quite deep. They were filled in, and the places where there had been digging registered on the radar.

No-one realised until one of the local officers pointed it out.”

The source said that when Lenny Harper, the deputy chief officer of Jersey Police, was told the real reason they had found so many suspicious spots was because of Bergerac, “he put his head in his hands and uttered a few choice words.

However they added that the search was now being done with the knowledge that there may be an alternative explanation, The Times claimed.

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2008/03/04/jersey-graves-could-be-bergerac-tv-props-23444/#ixzz3fEH9kpQE

The Jersey abuse case is not finished, of course. Just like the Zapata case it could turn out that Eddie will be vindicated in the end.

Police investigating child abuse claims on the island of Jersey say they are set to question 13 celebrities, politicians and sports stars.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3111224/Police-set-question-thirteen-celebrities-politicians-sports-stars-investigation-historic-child-abuse-island-Jersey.html#ixzz3fElmYJ6b
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 07, 2015, 09:12:27 PM

" ... it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment "
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

Seems a rational conclusion and summed up very succinctly ... yet Mr Amaral took it upon himself to write a book in which he levelled the most scurrilous accusations possible at the parents of the missing child whose case he failed to come even close to solving during his tenure.


...And you know this because?

I think the dogs are exceptionally clever. Without physical evidence the barking can only be a guessing summation, although I do believe Amaral did what most police would do, that is look for other circumstantial evidence and see what they come up with- Amaral and the PJ came up with a thesis...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 09:31:54 PM
The Jersey abuse case is not finished, of course. Just like the Zapata case it could turn out that Eddie will be vindicated in the end.

Police investigating child abuse claims on the island of Jersey say they are set to question 13 celebrities, politicians and sports stars.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3111224/Police-set-question-thirteen-celebrities-politicians-sports-stars-investigation-historic-child-abuse-island-Jersey.html#ixzz3fElmYJ6b
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Hmmm ... I doubt if even Operation Yewtree will dig up any more than Eddie did ... particularly since unlike Savile there are some who are alive and kicking and ready to defend their names ... much as Freddie Starr is doing in a libel action against a woman whose 'story' is worth researching.
It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.



Freddie Starr will not be prosecuted, CPS confirms
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27294888

Freddie Starr libel trial: Karin Ward insists she told the truth to BBC and ITV about dressing room encounter
 http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/freddie-starr-libel-trial-karin-ward-felt-pressured-newsnight-interview-did-not-know-comments-itv
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 10:08:52 PM
The simple answer is that you cannot teach a dog a negative.  A dog which is trained to react to specific substances will only react to those substances.  If you require that the dog will never react to blood then blood will have been meticulously absent from his or her training regime.  It's not a case of ignoring blood, rather a case of reacting to that which they have been taught to react to.  A dog will always smell blood but if trained to find only cadaver then only cadaver it will find.

In order to separate blood from cadaver then three dogs are required.

Dog A reacts only to blood.
Dog B reacts only to cadaver.
Dog C reacts to both.

How do you separate molecules of blood from the rest of a cadaver (decomposing muscles, etc)? And what would the purpose be?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 07, 2015, 10:16:44 PM
I would go further.... A dog not alerting does not rule out cadaver odour

That seems logical to me if there is a margin of error either way.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:25:36 PM
Nevertheless all the possibilities were still there when the case was archived. No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

Despite all of this, it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively - the most dramatic - to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

Only about what didn't happen, namely, that the McCanns played no part in the disappearance of their (loved and cherished!) daughter.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 10:26:22 PM
How do you separate molecules of blood from the rest of a cadaver (decomposing muscles, etc)? And what would the purpose be?

That is the problem I have with it, Carana.  Blood is part of the decomposition process.  No-one knows exactly what makes up the components of that and exactly what it is the dogs are smelling.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2015, 10:45:43 PM

Hmmm ... I doubt if even Operation Yewtree will dig up any more than Eddie did ... particularly since unlike Savile there are some who are alive and kicking and ready to defend their names ... much as Freddie Starr is doing in a libel action against a woman whose 'story' is worth researching.
It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.



Freddie Starr will not be prosecuted, CPS confirms
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27294888

Freddie Starr libel trial: Karin Ward insists she told the truth to BBC and ITV about dressing room encounter
 http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/freddie-starr-libel-trial-karin-ward-felt-pressured-newsnight-interview-did-not-know-comments-itv

The investigation is Operation Whistle, not Yewtree.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:46:34 PM
That is the problem I have with it, Carana.  Blood is part of the decomposition process.  No-one knows exactly what makes up the components of that and exactly what it is the dogs are smelling.

Of this I am certain.

Still today (in the rest of the world that uses cadaver dogs) it is not standard that uncorroborated dog-alerts are taken as infallible evidence of death.

Until comparatively recently, the same was true in the US (still is in most parts of the US)

The exception is the US Forensic Canine Program

I can think of only one reason why that would be.

Dogs in that program (US spelling) have been desensitised to blood.

I can think of no other logical or coherent reason for it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2015, 10:50:53 PM
No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

Only about what didn't happen, namely, that the McCanns played no part in the disappearance of their (loved and cherished!) daughter.

That remains to be demonstrated;

In this sense, the legal procedures were followed, according to the norms and conventions that are in force, and the appearance of the witnesses was requested, inviting them to be present inclusively appealing to solidarity with the McCann couple, as it is certain that since the beginning they adhered to that process diligence.

Nevertheless, despite national authorities assuming all measures to render their trip to Portugal viable, for unknown motives, after the many doubts that they raised about the necessity and opportunity of their trip were clarified several times, they chose not to attend, which rendered the diligence inviable.

We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 07, 2015, 10:54:02 PM
That remains to be demonstrated;

In this sense, the legal procedures were followed, according to the norms and conventions that are in force, and the appearance of the witnesses was requested, inviting them to be present inclusively appealing to solidarity with the McCann couple, as it is certain that since the beginning they adhered to that process diligence.

Nevertheless, despite national authorities assuming all measures to render their trip to Portugal viable, for unknown motives, after the many doubts that they raised about the necessity and opportunity of their trip were clarified several times, they chose not to attend, which rendered the diligence inviable.

We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm

That remains to be demonstrated;

No it doesn't.

The so-called "reconstitution" was (rightly!) seen through as a farce.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 07, 2015, 10:58:25 PM
That remains to be demonstrated;

No it doesn't.

The so-called "reconstitution" was (rightly!) seen through as a farce.

According to the legal report it does. You keep quoting it to prove innocence, but it also said what i quoted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 07, 2015, 11:10:07 PM

Hmmm ... I doubt if even Operation Yewtree will dig up any more than Eddie did ... particularly since unlike Savile there are some who are alive and kicking and ready to defend their names ... much as Freddie Starr is doing in a libel action against a woman whose 'story' is worth researching.
It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.



Freddie Starr will not be prosecuted, CPS confirms
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27294888

Freddie Starr libel trial: Karin Ward insists she told the truth to BBC and ITV about dressing room encounter
 http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/freddie-starr-libel-trial-karin-ward-felt-pressured-newsnight-interview-did-not-know-comments-itv

The investigation is Operation Whistle, not Yewtree.

Whatever.  It still won't go any where near vindicating Eddie ... I think the problem you appear to have is recognising facts with which you disagree and the fact remains that the visit to Haut de la Garenne was an unmitigated disaster from most points of view.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 08, 2015, 12:20:19 PM
It's hypocritical when the first arguido fully co-operated. So what makes them any different. Parents are always suspects in these cases so it's not like they didn't know it was going to happen at some stage if it remained unsolved.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2015, 12:41:38 PM
It's hypocritical when the first arguido fully co-operated. So what makes them any different. Parents are always suspects in these cases so it's not like they didn't know it was going to happen at some stage if it remained unsolved.

It is not hypocritical to protect oneself within the rights of The Law.  What Robert Murat decided to do was his own affair.

Lies had been spread through The Media with leaks from The PJ.  And The PJ blatantly lied to them during interviews.  This was despicable.

Did Amaral deliberately misunderstand The Dogs and The DNA, or was he just unbelievably ignorant?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 08, 2015, 12:45:41 PM
Pathfinder needs a new Sat Nav.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

(Portuguese prosecutors, who reached that conclusion without a reconstitution).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 08, 2015, 01:00:27 PM
Pathfinder needs a new Sat Nav.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

(Portuguese prosecutors, who reached that conclusion without a reconstitution).

There's no conclusion yet. It's been re-opened and the investigation is on-going.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 08, 2015, 01:07:55 PM
It's hypocritical when the first arguido fully co-operated. So what makes them any different. Parents are always suspects in these cases so it's not like they didn't know it was going to happen at some stage if it remained unsolved.

How unco-operative was it of Kate McCann to decide not to actively assist the police in their last ditch attempt to pin a crime (which she knew had been committed by someone else) on herself?     Common sense alone dictates that only someone completely off their rocker would decide to actually help the police to frame them. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 08, 2015, 01:09:30 PM
How unco-operative was it of Kate McCann to decide not to actively assist the police in their last ditch attempt to pin a crime (which she knew had been committed by someone else) on herself?     Common sense alone dictates that only someone completely off their rocker would decide to actually help the police to frame them.

Beautifully and succinctly put, Benice ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 08, 2015, 01:13:19 PM
How unco-operative was it of Kate McCann to decide not to actively assist the police in their last ditch attempt to pin a crime (which she knew had been committed by someone else) on herself?     Common sense alone dictates that only someone completely off their rocker would decide to actually help the police to frame them.

Robert Murat thought he was being framed but he fully co-operated against his lawyers advice because he knew he was innocent. Every comment on the Sun facebook page over 500 today all have the same opinion on this case. You better not go there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 08, 2015, 01:15:47 PM
Robert Murat thought he was being framed but he fully co-operated against his lawyers advice because he knew he was innocent. Every comment on the Sun facebook page over 500 today all have the same opinion on this case. You better not go there.

Robert Murat insisted he spent the evening May 3rd home with his mother.

The point is hotly disputed ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 08, 2015, 01:25:01 PM
Robert Murat thought he was being framed but he fully co-operated against his lawyers advice because he knew he was innocent. Every comment on the Sun facebook page over 500 today all have the same opinion on this case. You better not go there.

But Gerry McCann did exactly the same as Robert Murat.   So what's the difference?  Why does that point to the innocence of one man but not the other?

I don't know how your reference to the Sun facebook is connected.   I've never read it.  Care to elucidate?


Sorry just realised I'm off topic.  No need to reply PF.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 08, 2015, 01:28:10 PM
I would go further.... A dog not alerting does not rule out cadaver odour
So what do you deduce from the fact that Eddie did not alert in the bathroom ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 08, 2015, 01:31:07 PM
So what do you deduce from the fact that Eddie did not alert in the bathroom ?

Was Eddie deployed in the bathroom?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 08, 2015, 01:47:08 PM
Was Eddie deployed in the bathroom?
Yes here is 5a bathroom http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=17m23s
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 08, 2015, 01:52:50 PM
So what do you deduce from the fact that Eddie did not alert in the bathroom ?

Nothing can be deduced.
She could have drowned in the bath & her body left in cold water for a few hours to slow the rate of decomposition.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on July 08, 2015, 02:04:31 PM
No conclusion was reached as to what happened.

Only about what didn't happen, namely, that the McCanns played no part in the disappearance of their (loved and cherished!) daughter.

The AG couldn't state any such thing since nobody knows what happened to Maddie or who if anyone was involved in her disappearance.

He most certainly never cleared anyone!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on July 08, 2015, 02:07:26 PM
That is the problem I have with it, Carana.  Blood is part of the decomposition process.  No-one knows exactly what makes up the components of that and exactly what it is the dogs are smelling.

To a dog, cadaver odour and blood smell completely differently and that is why a dog taught to detect only cadaver odour will only alert to cadaver odour.  That is the mistake which Martin Grime made in PdL, he used the wrong dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 08, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
The current SIO has worked on a case where a dog was incredibly reliable.

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on July 08, 2015, 02:19:54 PM
Pathfinder needs a new Sat Nav.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

(Portuguese prosecutors, who reached that conclusion without a reconstitution).

They had no choice given the ever-so-cooperative tapas groups' decision to not cooperate.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 02:42:31 PM
It's hypocritical when the first arguido fully co-operated. So what makes them any different. Parents are always suspects in these cases so it's not like they didn't know it was going to happen at some stage if it remained unsolved.

The first arguido was in mid-May 2007. At that stage, he hadn't been through months of lurid half-baked allegations fluttering out of PJ windows.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 02:45:16 PM
Nothing can be deduced.
She could have drowned in the bath & her body left in cold water for a few hours to slow the rate of decomposition.

As one does on holiday. If that had been the case, why didn't Eddie alert to the bathtub?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2015, 02:45:34 PM
The first arguido was in mid-May 2007. At that stage, he hadn't been through months of lurid half-baked allegations fluttering out of PJ windows.

He also understood how the system worked, lies and all.  And he spoke Portuguese.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 02:50:01 PM
He also understood how the system worked, lies and all.  And he spoke Portuguese.

I'm not sure that even he realised that his attempts to be helpful made the tabloids equate him with Ian Huntley.

He brought a lawyer with him during the latest round, didn't he?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 08, 2015, 02:57:40 PM
I'm not sure that even he realised that his attempts to be helpful made the tabloids equate him with Ian Huntley.

He brought a lawyer with him during the latest round, didn't he?

There was a lawyer kicking around somewhere throughout.  I think he asked to be made an Arguido which would have allowed him to have a lawyer present.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 03:07:03 PM
To a dog, cadaver odour and blood smell completely differently and that is why a dog taught to detect only cadaver odour will only alert to cadaver odour.  That is the mistake which Martin Grime made in PdL, he used the wrong dogs.

AFAIK, there is no such thing as a unique cadaver odour (at least to a dog).

Think about it.

A whole decomposing body will have a different smell to different body parts. Each will give off a certain "bouquet", and each varies according to the stage.

You don't have to be a springer spaniel to distinguish between the smell of liver, kidney and steak do you? A rotting bit of offal won't smell the same as a 10-year-old bone that your dog happened to have hidden under your sofa.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 08, 2015, 03:10:27 PM
There was a lawyer kicking around somewhere throughout.  I think he asked to be made an Arguido which would have allowed him to have a lawyer present.

I don't know whether he asked, whether his lawyer insisted, or whether that was simply part of the PT protection measures undertaken for questioning by a foreign police force.

Was he an arguido in this latest round? He did apparently have a lawyer present (so would I have done), but the laws changed, enabling a lawyer to be present even if you're interviewed as a witness, so that doesn't actually mean much.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 08, 2015, 03:11:04 PM
As one does on holiday. If that had been the case, why didn't Eddie alert to the bathtub?

If it takes approx. 90 mins at an average room temperature for cadaverine to be discernible to a VRD's senses, so how much longer would the process take if the body was in cold water?
I'm not saying that is what happened - far from it - but the dog not alerting to the bath actually proves nothing....unless someone spotted a man in a wetsuit, carrying a little girl, wandering around after 7pm.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 08, 2015, 08:21:08 PM
AFAIK, there is no such thing as a unique cadaver odour (at least to a dog).

Think about it.

A whole decomposing body will have a different smell to different body parts. Each will give off a certain "bouquet", and each varies according to the stage.

You don't have to be a springer spaniel to distinguish between the smell of liver, kidney and steak do you? A rotting bit of offal won't smell the same as a 10-year-old bone that your dog happened to have hidden under your sofa.

I think this was covered, here, in paragraph two (if I understood your post properly, which wasn't too clear)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2480.jpg



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 08, 2015, 10:22:04 PM
The current SIO has worked on a case where a dog was incredibly reliable.

Do you mean Ms Wall? Which case?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 08, 2015, 10:28:07 PM
Pathfinder needs a new Sat Nav.

While it is an unavoidable fact that Madeleine disappeared from Apartment 5A of the 'Ocean Club', the manner and circumstances under which this happened are not - despite the numerous diligences made in that sense -, therefore the range of crimes that were indicated and referred to during the inquiry remains untouched.

(Portuguese prosecutors, who reached that conclusion without a reconstitution).

you have just made a quote whch refutes your position, oh dear, all it says is it is a fact that Madeleine is missing, but unclear who is responsible or how she disappeared
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 09, 2015, 10:45:53 AM
you have just made a quote whch refutes your position, oh dear, all it says is it is a fact that Madeleine is missing, but unclear who is responsible or how she disappeared

The (shelved) enquiry established beyond doubt that neither Kate and Gerry nor any of their friends (and neither Robert Murat) had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance.

The second enquiry started with the implicit assumption of the innocence of all three (original!) arguidos ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 09, 2015, 11:43:17 AM
The (shelved) enquiry established beyond doubt that neither Kate and Gerry nor any of their friends (and neither Robert Murat) had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance.

The second enquiry started with the implicit assumption of the innocence of all three (original!) arguidos ...
The second enquiry started with the implicit assumption of the innocence of everyone.
ETA and presumably looked afresh at the dog alerts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 09, 2015, 11:51:18 AM

Amaral and The Dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 12:12:10 PM
... the sniffer dog that GNR sent to the location, on the day following the english girl’s disappearance. It’s an animal that only follows odours, and that “detected the movement of the child from the room to another point inside the apartment”, according to a source with the Guarda. The same source said that “based on that signal, it was not possible to conclude whether the child was alive or dead – because a sniffer dog will smell both the living and the dead”. Yet, outside the house, both through the windows that faced the Tapas restaurant – where the McCanns had dinner with their seven friends – and through the main door, “the dog lost the trail, as if the child had exited, for example, rolled up in a blanket”, that source said.
Source: Sol, 4 Aug 2007
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 12:38:26 PM
... the sniffer dog that GNR sent to the location, on the day following the english girl’s disappearance. It’s an animal that only follows odours, and that “detected the movement of the child from the room to another point inside the apartment”, according to a source with the Guarda. The same source said that “based on that signal, it was not possible to conclude whether the child was alive or dead – because a sniffer dog will smell both the living and the dead”. Yet, outside the house, both through the windows that faced the Tapas restaurant – where the McCanns had dinner with their seven friends – and through the main door, “the dog lost the trail, as if the child had exited, for example, rolled up in a blanket”, that source said.
Source: Sol, 4 Aug 2007

                                  Hmmm ... did Sol mention if it happened to be a pink blanket?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 12:53:29 PM
                                  Hmmm ... did Sol mention if it happened to be a pink blanket?
IMO "blanket" is given only as an example of the assumption of being wrapped up in or enclosed in something. Which is assumed because the GNR dog reportedly was not able to continue the trail from that second unnamed indoor location to the outside.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 13, 2015, 01:15:05 PM
IMO "blanket" is given only as an example of the assumption of being wrapped up in or enclosed in something. Which is assumed because the GNR dog reportedly was not able to continue the trail from that second unnamed indoor location to the outside.

It's possible that she was taken out and wrapped in something... but I don't see how it could have been the pink blanket as that is what had been given to the dogs to attempt to find her.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 01:26:21 PM
Here is the source - scroll down to the Sol 4 Aug 2007 article.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html
If true, it claims IMO that a GNR dog was deployed inside the apartment on 4th May, and tracked from the child bedroom to some other location inside the apartment, but was then unable to track further from that unnamed indoor location to the outside.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 02:47:31 PM
Here is the source - scroll down to the Sol 4 Aug 2007 article.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html
If true, it claims IMO that a GNR dog was deployed inside the apartment on 4th May, and tracked from the child bedroom to some other location inside the apartment, but was then unable to track further from that unnamed indoor location to the outside.

It would certainly explain the amount of dog hair found which contaminated the forensics.  But why??? is it considered remarkable that a sniffer dog would sniff the scent of a missing child within within the premises where she had lived for a number of days?

I think the value of the Sol report lies in reading the files and the reports of what the GNR sniffer dogs actually did in their searches for Madeleine.

There is nothing in the files which replicates the inventive Sol account of events.

I think it must be read in the context of damaging leaks to the press from a 'source close to the investigation' at a time when there was a spate of such pejorative leaks to soften up public opinion against Madeleine's parents.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 03:06:58 PM
It would certainly explain the amount of dog hair found which contaminated the forensics.  But why??? is it considered remarkable that a sniffer dog would sniff the scent of a missing child within within the premises where she had lived for a number of days?

I think the value of the Sol report lies in reading the files and the reports of what the GNR sniffer dogs actually did in their searches for Madeleine.

There is nothing in the files which replicates the inventive Sol account of events.

I think it must be read in the context of damaging leaks to the press from a 'source close to the investigation' at a time when there was a spate of such pejorative leaks to soften up public opinion against Madeleine's parents.

On this, as on other dog-related issues, I am out on a limb.

Very highly trained and well-disciplined though I believe the dogs the Portuguese deployed to have been, I do not believe that they were of the right discipline for the type of search required.

I think they had air-scenting dogs of the type that track the generic human scent, a belief supported by a reference of Mark Harrison in one of his reports.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 03:14:51 PM
It would certainly explain the amount of dog hair found which contaminated the forensics.  But why??? is it considered remarkable that a sniffer dog would sniff the scent of a missing child within within the premises where she had lived for a number of days?

I think the value of the Sol report lies in reading the files and the reports of what the GNR sniffer dogs actually did in their searches for Madeleine.

There is nothing in the files which replicates the inventive Sol account of events.

I think it must be read in the context of damaging leaks to the press from a 'source close to the investigation' at a time when there was a spate of such pejorative leaks to soften up public opinion against Madeleine's parents.
Two things would be very remarkable indeed if the Sol's source is true.
1. If true, the most recent scent on 4th May led from child bedroom to another point inside the apartment.
2. If true, the most recent scent stopped at that unnamed second point and didn't continue out a door.
How could that be possible?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on July 13, 2015, 03:17:19 PM
Wrong scent, perhaps?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 13, 2015, 03:30:13 PM
... the sniffer dog that GNR sent to the location, on the day following the english girl’s disappearance. It’s an animal that only follows odours, and that “detected the movement of the child from the room to another point inside the apartment”, according to a source with the Guarda. The same source said that “based on that signal, it was not possible to conclude whether the child was alive or dead – because a sniffer dog will smell both the living and the dead”. Yet, outside the house, both through the windows that faced the Tapas restaurant – where the McCanns had dinner with their seven friends – and through the main door, “the dog lost the trail, as if the child had exited, for example, rolled up in a blanket”, that source said.
Source: Sol, 4 Aug 2007

I believe the Sol reporter has confused what he was told the VRD dogs found as being what the GNR sniffer dogs found. We know that the GNR dogs followed Madeleine's(?) scent from the front door.
The date of the report is the clue.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 03:30:41 PM
Wrong scent, perhaps?
If it was another person's scent, it would still be remarkable, to track a scent to a point on a plan of a residence, and have the scent just end there and go nowhere. Why would Sol invent such an apparent impossibility?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 03:38:12 PM
I believe the Sol reporter has confused what he was told the VRD dogs found as being what the GNR sniffer dogs found. We know that the GNR dogs followed Madeleine's(?) scent from the front door.
The date of the report is the clue.
The Sol article is dated 4th Aug but claims to be describing a GNR dog's indoor track on 4th May
"on the day following the English girl's disappearance".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 13, 2015, 03:50:04 PM
The Sol article is dated 4th Aug but claims to be describing a GNR dog's indoor track on 4th May
"on the day following the English girl's disappearance".


SOL ? AUGUST 18

New contradictions in Maddie?s case

By Felicia Cabrita, with Margarida Davim
Translation by astro

*snip*
The path that the English dogs followed 2 weeks ago, in the surroundings of the apartment, exclude the possibility that the child was abducted and is still alive. The dogs walked the only two paths that Maddie?s family and friends knew.

One of them leads to Luz beach. The irish citizen Martin Smith, a local resident for years, told Sol that on that night he crossed ways with a man who was carrying a child, with the characteristics of Maddie. That path was searched by police and other people. Six days after the disappearance, Gerry, who was accompanied by an unknown individual, also seemed to participate in the searches, but on the opposite side of the way the dogs walked.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Martin Smith lived there for years & spoke to the Sol?
I think the Sol were very capable of putting their own spin on things.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 03:52:03 PM
Wrong scent, perhaps?

Dogs of the wrong scent-detecting discipline:

The search was split into 3 zones radiating out from Praia Da Luz in a northward direction. The first zone extended 3km to the EN125 road at Espiche. W?hin this zone, sectors were drawn using the natural boundaries that exist and included the entire village. Officers were briefed and debriefed before and after deployments and records of activity collected. Each sector was repeatedly searched on 3 separate occasions over the 7 days using officers conducting line searches and supported by air scenting dogs.

(Mark Harrison).

Very well-trained dogs, I'm sure, but just not of the right discipline for the type of search required.

Not remotely the fault of the GNR officers.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 04:08:51 PM
The SOL 4th Aug article claims a GNR dog was deployed to track inside the apartment on 4th May.
Forensics found numerous canine footprints and hairs all over the inside of the apartment.
This means SOL is probably correct.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 04:12:41 PM
The SOL 4th Aug article claims a GNR dog was deployed to track inside the apartment on 4th May.
Forensics found numerous canine footprints and hairs all over the inside of the apartment.
This means SOL is probably correct.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

SOL?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 05:21:49 PM
SOL?
Yes Here is the source - scroll down to the Sol 4 Aug 2007 article.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 05:39:28 PM
Yes Here is the source - scroll down to the Sol 4 Aug 2007 article.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id117.html

Pact of silence?

The  explanation that the group couldn't discuss the investigation because of Portuguese secrecy laws?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 06:34:15 PM
If it was another person's scent, it would still be remarkable, to track a scent to a point on a plan of a residence, and have the scent just end there and go nowhere. Why would Sol invent such an apparent impossibility?

Quite simply Pegasus, the press reporting of Madeleine McCann's case was a disgrace.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 06:38:07 PM
Pact of silence?
The  explanation that the group couldn't discuss the investigation because of Portuguese secrecy laws?
"another point in apartment"
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 06:50:56 PM
Quite simply Pegasus, the press reporting of Madeleine McCann's case was a disgrace.
Often yes, a good example being a journo who previously fed us the WMD guff.
But back to dogs - the numerous canine footprints (source already posted) all over the inside of apartment prove that at least one GNR dog was allowed to search inside apartment.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 09:02:47 PM
Often yes, a good example being a journo who previously fed us the WMD guff.
But back to dogs - the numerous canine footprints (source already posted) all over the inside of apartment prove that at least one GNR dog was allowed to search inside apartment.

There doesn't seem to be anything in the files saying a  scent search was done inside the apartment by GNR dogs. Why would they do that? On the 4 May? The fact there were footprints and hairs (mainly in the kids bedroom) doesn't prove it was either. Its possible this "story" came on the back of the English dog findings.

PS Ferryman, if these dogs only scented a generic human scent  (as they do in disaster zones for example) they wouldn't have been given Madeleines clothes, towel and blanket, would they? What does generic human scent mean anyway? Humans were all around them!

 &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 09:10:05 PM
There doesn't seem to be anything in the files saying a  scent search was done inside the apartment by GNR dogs. Why would they do that? On the 4 May? The fact there were footprints and hairs (mainly in the kids bedroom) doesn't prove it was either. Its possible this "story" came on the back of the English dog findings.

PS Ferryman, if these dogs only scented a generic human scent  (as they do in disaster zones for example) they wouldn't have been given Madeleines clothes, towel and blanket, would they? What does generic human scent mean anyway? Humans were all around them!

 &%+((£

There was a debate about whether taking such a step would be worthwhile, which clearly there wouldn't have been if these handlers had ground-scenting dogs.

Ground-scenting dogs can't work any other way.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 09:22:55 PM
There was a debate about whether taking such a step would be worthwhile, which clearly there wouldn't have been if these handlers had ground-scenting dogs.

Ground-scenting dogs can't work any other way.

Sorry, I didn't understand that

I questioned why would dogs who cant trace a personal scent be issued with personal items

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 09:45:00 PM
Sorry, I didn't understand that

I questioned why would dogs who cant trace a personal scent be issued with personal items

The bit you didn't understand is the answer to your question.

The handlers (in good faith) improvised in the hope that their dogs would track Madeleine's scent.

There was never the slightest chance that they would.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 09:52:12 PM
There doesn't seem to be anything in the files saying a  scent search was done inside the apartment by GNR dogs. Why would they do that? On the 4 May? The fact there were footprints and hairs (mainly in the kids bedroom) doesn't prove it was either. Its possible this "story" came on the back of the English dog findings.

PS Ferryman, if these dogs only scented a generic human scent  (as they do in disaster zones for example) they wouldn't have been given Madeleines clothes, towel and blanket, would they? What does generic human scent mean anyway? Humans were all around them!

 &%+((£
The date of this indoor GNR dog behaviour was 4 May, and the date Sol learned of it was a few days before 4 Aug, IMO.

A good reason to do it, starting from the child bedroom, would be to find which door or window was the exit, IMO.
 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 09:56:52 PM
The bit you didn't understand is the answer to your question.

The handlers (in good faith) improvised in the hope that their dogs would track Madeleine's scent.

There was never the slightest chance that they would.

Oh, not sure I believe this
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 10:06:03 PM
The date of this indoor GNR dog behaviour was 4 May, and the date Sol learned of it was a few days before 4 Aug, IMO.

A good reason to do it, starting from the child bedroom, would be to find which door or window was the exit, IMO.
Ferryman says they cant track individual scents

And we still have no file confirmation (or any other) this ever happened

Im getting the idea youre usng stuff to prove some theory of yours, care to share what you think happened?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 10:14:02 PM
Oh, not sure I believe this

It's perfectly true. 

Dogs that track a unique and individual ground-scent (of humans) are rare and specialised.  In England there is just one police force (based in Dyfed, Wales) that has them.

The Portuguese didn't have them, but they improvised as best they could.

I (genuinely) applaud their efforts, but their efforts were always in vain.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 10:33:10 PM
It's perfectly true. 

Dogs that track a unique and individual ground-scent (of humans) are rare and specialised.  In England there is just one police force (based in Dyfed, Wales) that has them.

The Portuguese didn't have them, but they improvised as best they could.

I (genuinely) applaud their efforts, but their efforts were always in vain.

This doesnt make sense. Police ask for personal effects when they know their dogs cant use them?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 13, 2015, 10:46:19 PM

What an absolute pleasure it is to read a totally logical Thread that contains no insults.  Thank you all so much for this.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 10:50:02 PM
This doesnt make sense. Police ask for personal effects when they know their dogs cant use them?

The alternative was to give up on Madeleine ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 10:54:00 PM
It's perfectly true. 

Dogs that track a unique and individual ground-scent (of humans) are rare and specialised.  In England there is just one police force (based in Dyfed, Wales) that has them.

The Portuguese didn't have them, but they improvised as best they could.

I (genuinely) applaud their efforts, but their efforts were always in vain.
I think Sherlock the dog would disagree with you?
The video is fantastic (Even if it is fake)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2767766/Lost-just-got-cuter-Airline-employs-Sherlock-dog-detective-return-forgotten-items-left-planes-tracking-scent.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 10:56:07 PM
The alternative was to give up on Madeleine ...

Now that really doesnt make sense, steady on
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 10:58:50 PM
The alternative was to give up on Madeleine ...

Now that really doesnt make sense, steady on

youre saying police had no person scenting dogs but just said so so it wouldnt seem they were not giving up n madeleine n 4 may, honestly
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 11:20:47 PM
Now that really doesnt make sense, steady on

youre saying police had no person scenting dogs but just said so so it wouldnt seem they were not giving up n madeleine n 4 may, honestly

No!

I'm saying that the Portuguese handlers, faced with a stark choice between simply giving up on Madeleine, or mixing-and-matching as best they could on behalf of Madeleine, opted to mix-and-match.

Nothing else.

I have the upmost admiration for these Portuguese handlers ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 11:25:25 PM
 8(8-))
No!

I'm saying that the Portuguese handlers, faced with a stark choice between simply giving up on Madeleine, or mixing-and-matching as best they could on behalf of Madeleine, opted to mix-and-match.

Nothing else.

I have the upmost admiration for these Portuguese handlers ....

Giving up on Madeleine? They hadnt even started

So they were faced with that conudrum on may 4 were they? As wigj all other caes of missing persons send out dogs pretending to be what they are not is that what you are saying?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 11:32:35 PM
8(8-))
Giving up on Madeleine? They hadnt even started

So they were faced with that conudrum on may 4 were they? As wigj all other caes of missing persons send out dogs pretending to be what they are not is that what you are saying?
I think you mistake (conflate!) pretence for improvisation!

The two are quite different ...

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 11:39:09 PM
I think you mistake (conflate!) pretence for improvisation!

The two are quite different ...

Stop talking cryptic or in riddkes and not answering posts, its time wasting

Just spit it out

Improvisation my arris, so you have not  answered yet did all portuguese dog handlers pretend? That silly
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 11:41:30 PM
Stop talking cryptic or in riddkes and not answering posts, its time wasting

Just spit it out

You don't understand.

I'm not surprised ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 11:43:55 PM
You don't understand.

I'm not surprised ....

Fine but I know YOUR "form" and it isn't honest so excuse me if I try and ask honest questions and get dud answers
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 13, 2015, 11:49:20 PM
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/175067-sniffer-dogs-brought-in-to-missing-michaela-search/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 11:55:53 PM
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/175067-sniffer-dogs-brought-in-to-missing-michaela-search/

So?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 12:01:08 AM
So?

An example of ground-scenting dogs in action.

From the only police fore (in Britain!) that has them.

The Portuguese didn't! and don't have them.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 12:06:13 AM
An example of ground-scenting dogs in action.

From the only police fore (in Britain!) that has them.

The Portuguese didn't! and don't have them.

I still dont believe you that the portuguese pretended or improvised when in gact fhey had no scent sniffing digs yu wikk hVe to prove this over and  above your own suspicions or beliefs, I hVent got a clue but it doesnt sound right to  me what you are saying
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 12:10:47 AM
I still dont believe you that the portuguese pretended or improvised when in gact fhey had no scent sniffing digs yu wikk hVe to prove this over and  above your own suspicions or beliefs, I hVent got a clue but it doesnt sound right to  me what you are saying

Ah well ....

Maybe, when Mark Harrison said the Portuguese deployed air-scenting dogs (the type that track the generic, not the individual and unique) human scent, he was making it all up?

Who knows?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 14, 2015, 12:33:44 AM
Ah well ....

Maybe, when Mark Harrison said the Portuguese deployed air-scenting dogs (the type that track the generic, not the individual and unique) human scent, he was making it all up?

Who knows?
So do you think that even hypothetically if the Sol article is true (GNR dog tracked from bedroom to another place in apartment then nowhere) it would be completely meaningless as intelligence?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 12:36:36 AM
Ah well ....

Maybe, when Mark Harrison said the Portuguese deployed air-scenting dogs (the type that track the generic, not the individual and unique) human scent, he was making it all up?

Who knows?

Either you or Harrison didnt know what they were talking about? Probably you?
or was it the Portuguese police again screwing up??? Lyng or whatever else they do for all and sundry to denigrate them
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 14, 2015, 12:44:47 AM
It's perfectly true. 

Dogs that track a unique and individual ground-scent (of humans) are rare and specialised.  In England there is just one police force (based in Dyfed, Wales) that has them.

The Portuguese didn't have them, but they improvised as best they could.

I (genuinely) applaud their efforts, but their efforts were always in vain.

 @)(++(* That's ironic coming from you.

I am regularly deployed to assist in high profile homicide cases within my portfolio and form a 'Specialist Canine Homicide Search Team' including the S.A.M dog teams from Dyfed Powys.
My core role includes the training and operational handling of specialist search dogs in the fields of Human Victim Recovery and Forensic Crime Scene Investigation.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

Alun Willams
dog trainer

trainer/advisor on canine detection
alun williams
June 1984 – Present (31 years 2 months)

police dog trainer
dyfed powys police
June 1994 – March 2011 (16 years 10 months)

I am a subject matter expert in the U.K. on the trailing system known as the Scent Article Method. Training canines to follow an individual human scent over every type of terrain. I further developed this system to assist in crime and missing persons throughout the U.K. and Ireland. I managed a dog team that was regularly called to assist in missing persons and matters of serious crime. I have an extensive knowledge of working these dogs in major crime scenes and of forensically obtaining target scents from these scenes to enable the dogs to perform their work. I have worked closely with Martin Grime and Mark Harrison on cases and with our combined expertise became a very efficient team. I now advise certain law enforcement agencies in Switzerland and Germany and in relation to the trailing system and also search and rescue organisations. I have given presentations on this subject both Nationally and Internationally.

https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/alun-willams/91/498/30a
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 14, 2015, 01:06:31 AM
Ah well ....

Maybe, when Mark Harrison said the Portuguese deployed air-scenting dogs (the type that track the generic, not the individual and unique) human scent, he was making it all up?

Who knows?
Strange, experts say that Lowland Search dogs can track a unique individual's scent by air-scenting.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 01:10:13 AM
seems ferryman is wrong not a poster to rely on,for true facts as if that is news
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 14, 2015, 01:54:31 AM
http://www.ussartf.org/dogs_search_rescue.htm

AIR SCENT DOGS

The air scent dog is the type most frequently encountered.  This dog finds lost people by picking up traces of human scent that are drifting in the air, and looks for the "cone" of scent where it is most concentrated.  This dog will not normally discriminate scents, so there is the possibility of a "false alarm" if other people (searchers, citizens) are nearby.  Airscent dogs work best in situations such as large parks or private lands that are closed at the time, since the dog will home in on any human scent.  The success of an air scent dog will be affected by a number of factors, including wind conditions, air temperature, time of day, terrain, and presence or absence of contamination (auto exhaust, smoke, etc.).  The best conditions for air scent dogs to work are early mornings or late afternoons on cool, cloudy days when there is a light wind.

TRAILING DOGS

The trailing dog is often referred to as a "tracking" dog, although "tracking" and "trailing" are not the same to the purist.  The trailing dog is directed to find a specific person by following minute particles of human tissue or skin cells cast off by the person as he or she travels.  These heavier-than-air particles, which contain this person's scent, will normally be close to the ground or on nearby foliage, so the trailing dog will frequently have its "nose the ground," unlike the air scent dog.

A Bloodhound is typically trained for scent discrimination.  Each dog is usually worked in a harness, on a leash, and given an uncontaminated scent article (such as a piece of clothing) belonging to the missing person.  The dog follows that scent and no other.  At times, the dog may track, following the person's footsteps, or air scent, and home in on the subject's scent.

Field contamination (scent of others) should not affect his work.  He should be able to trail scents on pavements, streets, grass, water, etc.  If there is a good scent article and a point where the person was last seen, a trailing dog can be the fastest way to find the victim.  Without the scent article and a point where the person was last seen, these dogs cannot work effectively.
   
While those are the two standard types of search and rescue dogs, there are also other dogs trained to find lost people.

TRACKING DOG

A tracking dog is trained to follow the path of a certain person.  It physically tracks the path of the person, without relying on air scenting.  This dog is usually worked in a harness and on leash. This type of dog is effective when pursuing an escaped criminal if no scent article is available.  These dogs are also used successfully in search and rescue operations.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 07:41:48 AM
So do you think that even hypothetically if the Sol article is true (GNR dog tracked from bedroom to another place in apartment then nowhere) it would be completely meaningless as intelligence?

Dogs might well have picked up a scent.  But not Madeleine's individual and unique scent ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 08:11:20 AM
seems ferryman is wrong not a poster to rely on,for true facts as if that is news

I assure you quite categorically that I am right ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 08:15:39 AM
I assure you quite categorically that I am right ....


Have you handled dogs in the field ?

Or are you still googling as before ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 08:27:53 AM

Have you handled dogs in the field ?

Or are you still googling as before ?

I've read about them.

And I assimilate the information I read.

Others to contribute to this thread have done the same ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 08:33:18 AM
I've read about them.

And I assimilate the information I read.

Others to contribute to this thread have done the same ...

Doesn't make you an expert or qualified in the field, does it ?

So on your logic, if you read up and assimilated information , you could carry out heart surgery
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 09:04:20 AM
Doesn't make you an expert or qualified in the field, does it ?

So on your logic, if you read up and assimilated information , you could carry out heart surgery

Just makes me right.

I'll settle for that ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 09:06:56 AM
Just makes me right.

I'll settle for that ...


In what way exactly are you right ?

As for settling, by whose standards do you do that ?

To use one of benice's favourtie expressions, is it as an armchairs detective ? 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 14, 2015, 09:36:41 AM

In what way exactly are you right ?

As for settling, by whose standards do you do that ?

To use one of benice's favourtie expressions, is it as an armchairs detective ? 8**8:/:

It's your assertion that unless you are a qualified professional your opinions don't count.   So how do you justify your belief  that amateur armchair detectives with no qualifications -  know better than professional police officers?

You can't have it both ways.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 10:09:02 AM
I assure you quite categorically that I am right ....

Itsjust a little hard to believe that a  police force was pretending their dogs could follow a persons scent, and asked for their clothing just for effect!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 14, 2015, 10:26:36 AM
What have the detectives achieved then Benice ?

Besides, you spout your views on here, day after day.

Are you an armchair detective  ?

What happens to people Benice when they do a job and achieve nothing ?

Of course I'm an armchair detective, and it is for that very reason that I do not claim to know better than SY.

What's your reason for thinking that you do know better?


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 10:40:46 AM
Itsjust a little hard to believe that a  police force was pretending their dogs could follow a persons scent, and asked for their clothing just for effect!

They didn't pretend anything.

They improvised and hoped.

Their only other option was to give up.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 14, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
Zero results Benice.

and perhaps these detectives should be investigating all the plausible scenarios, and not just one, since the nature of Madeleine's disappearance is actually unknown.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 10:46:43 AM
They didn't pretend anything.

They improvised and hoped.

Their only other option was to give up.

And I suppose point 7 here is a lie

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 11:00:32 AM
And I suppose point 7 here is a lie

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

Nope!

with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.

Search and resuce dogs track the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 14, 2015, 12:07:39 PM
They didn't pretend anything.

They improvised and hoped.

Their only other option was to give up.

They did the best they could in the circumstances.  Their training was to find people lost outdoors if Madeleine had been outside (woke and wandered theory) there is every likelihood they would have found her.
Particularly when one considers the area of terrain they covered.

They were perfectly correct to improvise and hope and they put their all into finding Madeleine.

I think what you have illustrated in the link you posted Ferryman, is that dogs with particular 'bloodhound' skills are few and far between in Europe.
There are mountain rescue dogs in Scotland as well as police dogs ... yet a specialist team had to be imported from Wales.

Back in 2007 the Portuguese faced similar problems. 

Sometimes the issue with dogs finding nothing is that there is nothing there to be found.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 14, 2015, 12:11:15 PM
Nope!

with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.

Search and resuce dogs track the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one.

The dogs were given her pink blanket on the bed. I think that would have her unique scent on.

After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.

Beginning to follow the track using Rex, from the door of apartment 5 A (the place where the girl had been sleeping) he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground). Immediately another attempt at reconstruction was made using the dog Zarus, who, in general terms, ended up following the same route as Rex and having the same behaviour.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 14, 2015, 12:36:58 PM
The dogs were given her pink blanket on the bed. I think that would have her unique scent on.

After the officers had been updated about facts relating to the disappearance, they tried to reconstruct the route the girl might have taken with the two tracker dogs. For this purpose the dogs were given a blanket to sniff, provided by the parents, which had been used by Madeleine.

Beginning to follow the track using Rex, from the door of apartment 5 A (the place where the girl had been sleeping) he would always head in the direction of Block 4, leaving block 5 the dog would turn to the left, pass by a metal access door to a path existing between the apartments blocks to the leisure area (restaurant, pool and playground). Immediately another attempt at reconstruction was made using the dog Zarus, who, in general terms, ended up following the same route as Rex and having the same behaviour.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

They arrived at the apartment around 5:40PM, earlier than usual, because Madeleine was tired, their other friends were at the beach and Gerry had an all-male tennis game at 6:00PM. They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Pathfinder ... there are screeds of information and discussions out there about specialist dogs trained to search out an individual by scent.

A lot of it originates in America where I think bloodhounds are the animal of choice.  I believe Germany is another centre of excellence.

We only have them in Wales (see the link provided by Ferryman) ... and in 2007 the Portuguese had none.

No-one can state what it was that the Portuguese dogs followed ... but the chance of it being Madeleine's unique scent are so slim I believe it may be non-existent.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 14, 2015, 01:29:04 PM
Pathfinder ... there are screeds of information and discussions out there about specialist dogs trained to search out an individual by scent.

A lot of it originates in America where I think bloodhounds are the animal of choice.  I believe Germany is another centre of excellence.

We only have them in Wales (see the link provided by Ferryman) ... and in 2007 the Portuguese had none.

No-one can state what it was that the Portuguese dogs followed ... but the chance of it being Madeleine's unique scent are so slim I believe it may be non-existent.

They found Madeleine's alive scent. Amaral brought the best dogs over from England to find out what happened to Madeleine McCann. SY are searching for a body. They are back to where Amaral was in 2007 looking for a body and Smithman. So all has gone quiet from SY while they plan their next crucial move. They're at the crossroads now.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 02:12:49 PM
They did the best they could in the circumstances.  Their training was to find people lost outdoors if Madeleine had been outside (woke and wandered theory) there is every likelihood they would have found her.
Particularly when one considers the area of terrain they covered.

They were perfectly correct to improvise and hope and they put their all into finding Madeleine.

I think what you have illustrated in the link you posted Ferryman, is that dogs with particular 'bloodhound' skills are few and far between in Europe.
There are mountain rescue dogs in Scotland as well as police dogs ... yet a specialist team had to be imported from Wales.

Back in 2007 the Portuguese faced similar problems. 

Sometimes the issue with dogs finding nothing is that there is nothing there to be found.

I think you have all probably read about the initial dogs who were brought in, but just in case....

Processos Vol V


Pages 1335 – 1337

Witness Statement

Date: 2007-05-16

Carlos Manuel Carvalho Lacao

Occupation: GNR Officer


He has been a GNR officer since 1988. He holds the post of soldier and currently works in the Portimao Territorial Group, working within the forensics service.

On 4th May he was called at about 01.15 when he was asleep at home, requesting him to appear at the Lagos GNR post as a small girl had disappeared. After arriving at the GNR post with his colleagues Morais and two dogs (Numi and Kit), German Shepherd dogs, which made up the search team, they immediately left for P da L. They arrived at about 02.30.

When they arrived at the scene, they entered the McCann’s apartment by the front door, and entered the living room, where there were some PJ officers as well as the MCCann couple. The just talked to some colleagues from the PJ and asked for a piece of clothing that Madeleine had worn or used recently. They were given a pink/orange blanket that the child had been covered with in her bed.

They began searching with the dogs from the main entrance to the apartment, having given the blanket to his dog Numi to smell and begin to search.

The route initially taken was from the front entrance door to the passageway between Blocks 4 and 5, along the corridor and then along the passage that leads past the entrance to the small reception to the resort’s swimming pool. After that the whole of the area surrounding the resort was searched.

With regard to the indications transmitted by his dog Numi, he says that at the beginning he was only “a little interested”, he let the dog "get on with it" .

They finished the searches at about 07.00 AM.


His dog’s speciality is patrolling (Maintenance of Public Order) although the dog also has some training in “tracking”.


When they entered the apartment they did not speak to anyone, not wanting to get in the way of other GNR officers present. During the searches they only spoke to the sergeant, from the Lagos GNR post, with a GNR officer and with a security guard who was present, he does not remember what company he was from. The conversation was about whether they had found anything.

He remembers that during a brief rest period at about 04.00, Madeleine’s mother asked whether there was any news and whether the roads had been blocked off.

There were some unknown people helping in the searches, especially when they arrived at the resort. Their number decreased as it got later. Between 04.00 and 07.00 basically the only people searching were the witness, his colleague and another GNR officer.

During this night as well as the following night, when he repeated the searches from 23.00 to 08.00 he did not see anyone suspicious.

He did not see Robert Murat on either of the nights. He did not search inside the apartment, just the verandas and surrounding areas.


No more is said. Reads, ratifies, signs.

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post353.html#p353
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 02:13:23 PM
Pathfinder ... there are screeds of information and discussions out there about specialist dogs trained to search out an individual by scent.

A lot of it originates in America where I think bloodhounds are the animal of choice.  I believe Germany is another centre of excellence.

We only have them in Wales (see the link provided by Ferryman) ... and in 2007 the Portuguese had none.

No-one can state what it was that the Portuguese dogs followed ... but the chance of it being Madeleine's unique scent are so slim I believe it may be non-existent.

Two types of dogs were used, and it was search and rescue dogs who were given the towel and blanket to sniff at;

At 00.40, given the complexity of the situation that seemed to surround the disappearance, the GNR post commander requested reinforcements from two sniffer dog teams from the Portimao territorial group to help in the searches, considering the possibility that the girl could have left the apartment on foot and could be somewhere not very far from the OC resort.

At 01.00 after the group commander had been briefed about the situation, telephone contact was made with an official from the Queluz GNR school, with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.

At 02.00 they arrived at P da L and began searching with the Portimao sniffer dog teams, the terrain searches were extended until the morning with the dogs and officers on the scene, as well as the night guard and local people who volunteered to help in the searches that took place throughout the night.

At 08.00 three officers with 4 search and rescue dogs from Queluz arrived at the scene, these dogs immediately began to operate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 04:27:09 PM
Two types of dogs were used, and it was search and rescue dogs who were given the towel and blanket to sniff at;

At 00.40, given the complexity of the situation that seemed to surround the disappearance, the GNR post commander requested reinforcements from two sniffer dog teams from the Portimao territorial group to help in the searches, considering the possibility that the girl could have left the apartment on foot and could be somewhere not very far from the OC resort.

At 01.00 after the group commander had been briefed about the situation, telephone contact was made with an official from the Queluz GNR school, with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.

At 02.00 they arrived at P da L and began searching with the Portimao sniffer dog teams, the terrain searches were extended until the morning with the dogs and officers on the scene, as well as the night guard and local people who volunteered to help in the searches that took place throughout the night.

At 08.00 three officers with 4 search and rescue dogs from Queluz arrived at the scene, these dogs immediately began to operate.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm

Search and rescue dogs track the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 14, 2015, 05:11:41 PM
Search and rescue dogs track the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one ...

It is all in the training and the GNR dogs did their best but I doubt very much if they had been trained to track an individual.


**snip
Ever wonder what happens when police use a bloodhound to help find a missing person? Let’s find out.

When a bloodhound sniffs a scent article, such as a piece of clothing, air rushes through the dog’s nasal cavity. The scent of the person creates an “odor image” (a sort of smell photograph) in the dog’s brain.

The odor image is created from a variety of smells that a human cannot detect, including sweat, breath and skin. Although the world is full of smells, a bloodhound’s sense of smell is so powerful that it can use the odor image to pick out the exact scent trail it needs.

Once the bloodhound finds a scent trail matching the odor image, it can follow that specific smell despite all the other odors in the environment. Bloodhounds have been known to follow a scent trail for more than 130 miles!

If someone has ever walked past you wearing perfume, you’ve probably noticed that, within a few minutes, the smell disappears. A bloodhound’s sense of smell is so strong that it can still smell a trail up to 300 hours old! That would be like someone walking past you wearing perfume and still being able to smell it 13 days later!

The nose isn’t the only part of bloodhounds well-suited for tracking. Their signature wrinkly skin helps trap scents, too. Their long, droopy ears also act as scent sweepers, dragging the ground and sweeping scents toward their noses.

For nearly 200 years, bloodhounds have helped law enforcement personnel track missing persons and criminals. Although today’s police forces have exciting new technologies available, many believe bloodhounds are still the best option when it comes to tracking.

http://wonderopolis.org/wonder/what-makes-bloodhounds-good-detectives
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 05:43:35 PM
Nope!

with the aim of their releasing search and rescue dog teams, seeing as these are specially trained to find missing persons, which is not the case with the Portimao sniffer dogs, which are essentially patrol dogs.

Search and resuce dogs track the generic human scent, not the individual and unique one.

So who were the SAR dogs looking for then? its confusing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 05:54:07 PM
A thread that I found interesting. K9Snoop does seem to be an accredited dog handler but seems objective to me.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-176441.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 06:03:11 PM
So who were the SAR dogs looking for then? its confusing.

The hope was that they would find Madeleine.

But they were of the wrong discipline to track an individual and unique scent.

Somewhere in the GNR report (I can't find it now) there was actually a discussion about whether their dogs would be able to assimilate Madeleine's scent from sniffing something belonging to Madeleine.

The mere fact of that conversation proves they had dogs of the wrong discipline for that search.

Dogs of the right discipline can't work any other way hence (English nomenclature) scent article method dog.  That is dogs that assimilate an individual and unique scent by sniffing an article.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 06:08:29 PM
The hope was that they would find Madeleine.

But they were of the wrong discipline to track an individual and unique scent.

Somewhere in the GNR report (I can't find it now) there was actually a discussion about whether their dogs would be able to assimilate Madeleine's scent from sniffing something belonging to Madeleine.

The mere fact of that conversation proves they had dogs of the wrong discipline for that search.

Dogs of the right discipline can't work any other way hence (English nomenclature) scent article method dog.  That is dogs that assimilate an individual and unique scent by sniffing an article.

Sorry, still  dont understand. If the dogs dont search for an individuals scent what exactly do they search for?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 06:10:13 PM
Sorry, still  dont understand. If the dogs dont search for an individuals scent what exactly do they search for?

Have a read of the link to a thread I posted just above, Mercury.

There are all kinds of dogs trained for different purposes.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 06:24:54 PM
Have a read of the link to a thread I posted just above, Mercury.

There are all kinds of dogs trained for different purposes.
Cant you just tell me?

The dogs were given Madeleines belongings but Ferryman and others have said this means nothing at all

So, what were the dogs looking for? Ferryman says a generic human scent, that don't help much either, there were many humans around, if you see what I mean
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 06:25:30 PM
Sorry, still  dont understand. If the dogs dont search for an individuals scent what exactly do they search for?

Humans simultaneously emit two different scents: an areal scent that differentiates humans from species of animals, but does not differentiate one human as unique from another; a second scent, at, or just above, ground level that, like a signature or a full DNA profile, does differentiate one human as unique from another.

Dogs of the second type (that track the individual and unique scent) are rare and specialised, known in Britain as scent article method dogs.

In Britain there is only one police force that has them, based in Dyfed Wales.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 06:28:35 PM
Cant you just tell me?

The dogs were given Madeleines belongings but Ferryman and others have said this means nothing at all

So, what were the dogs looking for? Ferryman says a generic human scent, that don't help much either, there were many humans around, if you see what I mean


Tracking and Trailing Dogs
Tracking dogs are capable of locating any human scent and following the scent to a successful conclusion.
Trailing dogs are capable of locating a specific human scent (usually obtained from an article of clothing) and following the scent, ignoring other scents, to a successful conclusion.
Search Dogs UK are able to supply dogs trained in both disciplines to agencies concerned with locating persons in vast areas.
Target Agencies: Law Enforcement, SAR Agencies.
http://www.searchdogsuk.co.uk/other_disciplines.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 06:32:35 PM
thanks Fm and Anna but I havent got an answer to my question , what were the dogs  sent out to do?/find rather
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 14, 2015, 06:39:04 PM
thanks Fm and Anna but I havent got an answer to my question , what were the dogs  sent out to do?/find rather

evidence ...they didn't find any
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 06:46:12 PM

Tracking and Trailing Dogs
Tracking dogs are capable of locating any human scent and following the scent to a successful conclusion.
Trailing dogs are capable of locating a specific human scent (usually obtained from an article of clothing) and following the scent, ignoring other scents, to a successful conclusion.
Search Dogs UK are able to supply dogs trained in both disciplines to agencies concerned with locating persons in vast areas.
Target Agencies: Law Enforcement, SAR Agencies.
http://www.searchdogsuk.co.uk/other_disciplines.html

Thank you Anna.

What I underline is what we, in Britain, term scent article method dogs.

Not remotely the fault of the GNR handlers who tasked their dogs to look for Madeleine, but their dogs were not of that discipline.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 06:52:37 PM
Thank you Anna.

What I underline is what we, in Britain, term scent article method dogs.

Not remotely the fault of the GNR handlers who tasked their dogs to look for Madeleine, but their dogs were not of that discipline.

So what were the dogs looking for?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 06:56:19 PM
So what were the dogs looking for?

Their handlers hoped they were looking for Madeleine.

However, they weren't because they had not successfully assimilated Madeleine's (individual and unique) scent.

They were of the wrong discipline for that type of search ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 07:00:07 PM
Their handlers hoped they were looking for Madeleine.

However, they weren't because they had not successfully assimilated Madeleine's (individual and unique) scent.

They were of the wrong discipline for that type of search ....

I get what you said but what did the dogs go out and look for? Dogs look for something surely and the dogs deployed  twice over followed a trail did they not? what was the trail?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 07:05:11 PM
Thank you Anna.

What I underline is what we, in Britain, term scent article method dogs.

Not remotely the fault of the GNR handlers who tasked their dogs to look for Madeleine, but their dogs were not of that discipline.

No I believe the handlers were doing what they could over some rough terrain at times.
The initial dogs had some training in tracking(not sure what sort), but although that might find a human being, it would not necessarily find Madeleine.
whatever reason they used the blanket for to allow the dogs to sniff. It must have given her parents an extra bit of reassurance that things were being done to find her.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 07:07:33 PM
I get what you said but what did the dogs go out and look for? Dogs look for something surely and the dogs deployed  twice over followed a trail did they not? what was the trail?

Who knows what scent they followed?

Just not Madeleine's.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 07:20:53 PM
Who knows what scent they followed?

Just not Madeleine's.

Oh, so now they did follow someones scent, make your mind up

So they ARE scent following dogs?? Hello?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 07:45:47 PM
Oh, so now they did follow someones scent, make your mind up

So they ARE scent following dogs?? Hello?

Dogs pick all sorts of scents all the time.

It's what you can train them to follow that counts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 08:17:30 PM
Ok ferryman

Do let me know what the gnr dogs were left off their leash to find then ,  it seems to me you  are saying they couldnt find nothing at all, so whats the point of using them???

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 08:34:02 PM
...it seems to me...

I'm sure it does ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 08:35:55 PM
Ok ferryman

Do let me know what the gnr dogs were left off their leash to find then ,  it seems to me you  are saying they couldnt find nothing at all, so whats the point of using them???

If they were searching remote uninhabited areas, there was a chance that they would find someone,,,if someone was there that is. They were basically Public control trained, but they did have some training in tracking(of some sort)
Therefore it is a waste of time and effort to keep asking why they were used, Mercury, when none of us know the answer.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 14, 2015, 08:42:54 PM
If they were searching remote uninhabited areas, there was a chance that they would find someone,,,if someone was there that is. They were basically Public control trained, but they did have some training in tracking(of some sort)
Therefore it is a waste of time and effort to keep asking why they were used, Mercury, when none of us know the answer.

Did Amaral & Co use any dogs when Joana went missing, do you know?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 14, 2015, 08:43:17 PM
I get what you said but what did the dogs go out and look for? Dogs look for something surely and the dogs deployed  twice over followed a trail did they not? what was the trail?

Read the report... it's only 2 pages long or so.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GNR_SNIFFER.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 08:45:18 PM
Did Amaral & Co use any dogs when Joana went missing, do you know?

Yes they did actually, Misty.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 08:48:58 PM
Did Amaral & Co use any dogs when Joana went missing, do you know?

Here you go Misty,

16 sep 2004 CM



The authorities also decided to investigate again the family of small Joana, 8 years of age, as well as various other people that could provide clues about the mysterious case. The truth, however, is that the efforts made have had no effect. Leonor Cipriano, the mother of the child already speaks in "abduction" and asks: "Don't do evil to Joana".
Second found the CM, two teams cinotecnicas (man/dog) were used in the actions of search triggered in the fields around this rural village. The soldiers were conducting, including various wells, a stream and a channel for irrigation which passes close to the village, disproved the existence of traces of the girl.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/mae-confessa-morte-da-filha-por-acidente
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 08:50:18 PM
If they were searching remote uninhabited areas, there was a chance that they would find someone,,,if someone was there that is. They were basically Public control trained, but they did have some training in tracking(of some sort)
Therefore it is a waste of time and effort to keep asking why they were used, Mercury, when none of us know the answer.

No Anna you have got it  wrong 

there were two types of dogs

one type was tasked to find a missing person

The other type was taskedto search fields etc

Do you understand thedifference?


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 08:57:49 PM
No Anna you have got it  wrong 

there were two types of dogs

one type was tasked to find a missing person

The other type was taskedto search fields etc

Do you understand thedifference?

Yes. Well I thought I understood Mercury. So if a dog is searching a field , what do you think it was searching for?
I was not aware that one of dogs was trained to find a specific person on that day.
 I am interested in your reply. I haven't really studied the GNR dogs in this case. I know that an air scenting dog was discussed a while back.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 14, 2015, 09:05:32 PM
Yes. Well I thought I understood Mercury. So if a dog is searching a field , what do you think it was searching for?
I was not aware that one of dogs was trained to find a specific person on that day.
 I am interested in your reply. I haven't really studied the GNR dogs in this case. I know that an air scenting dog was discussed a while back.

The type tasked to search fields was probably looking for rabbits ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 09:17:26 PM
Yes. Well I thought I understood Mercury. So if a dog is searching a field , what do you think it was searching for?
I was not aware that one of dogs was trained to find a specific person on that day.
 I am interested in your reply. I haven't really studied the GNR dogs in this case. I know that an air scenting dog was discussed a while back.

Im as bemused as you

The portuguese police had dogs
Some of these dogs were said by them trained to find missing persons

The dogs were given the childs personal effects

Some Posters onhere  say they werent trained to personal scents

Ok

So I ask them what they searched for then? how does a  dog search if it doesnt know what its sesrching for!!!







Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 09:18:29 PM
The type tasked to search fields was probably looking for rabbits ....


 @)(++(*

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 09:25:42 PM
Im as bemused as you

The portuguese police had dogs
Some of these dogs were said by them trained to find missing persons

The dogs were given the childs personal effects

Some Posters onhere  say they werent trained to personal scents

Ok

So I ask them what they searched for then? how does a  dog search if it doesnt know what its sesrching for!!!

I think the dogs search for the scent of a person(any person) Mercury.
I have no idea why they were given an article to sniff and it seems no one else knows either.

There is some posts here about air scenting dogs
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2678.msg105032#msg105032
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 09:40:48 PM
I think the dogs search for the scent of a person(any person) Mercury.
I have no idea why they were given an article to sniff and it seems no one else knows either.

There is some posts here about air scenting dogs
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2678.msg105032#msg105032


So the police sent dogs out to scent nothng?
Bizarre
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 10:04:14 PM
What on earth did both dogs follow then? Both dogs started at the same place and followed the same route to the same place. Why? Sheer accident? There must have been loads of scents of people leaving G5A and turning right out of the car park, then right again to the Tapas entrance. Neither dog did that, they turned left and went to block 4, then behind the blocks  to the path running behind the gardens.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 10:34:21 PM
At least one of the original dogs had some training in tracking, so he possibly could sniff and use the scent. So possibly did scent something?
In general I think it was air scenting dogs that were used.

A wee bit of info

AIR SCENT DOGS

The air scent dog is the type most frequently encountered. This dog finds lost people by picking up traces of human scent that are drifting in the air, and looks for the "cone" of scent where it is most concentrated. This dog will not normally discriminate scents, so there is the possibility of a "false alarm" if other people (searchers, citizens) are nearby. Airscent dogs work best in situations such as large parks or private lands that are closed at the time, since the dog will home in on any human scent. The success of an air scent dog will be affected by a number of factors, including wind conditions, air temperature, time of day, terrain, and presence or absence of contamination (auto exhaust, smoke, etc.). The best conditions for air scent dogs to work are early mornings or late afternoons on cool, cloudy days when there is a light wind.

TRAILING DOGS

The trailing dog is often referred to as a "tracking" dog, although "tracking" and "trailing" are not the same to the purist. The trailing dog is directed to find a specific person by following minute particles of human tissue or skin cells cast off by the person as he or she travels. These heavier-than-air particles, which contain this person's scent, will normally be close to the ground or on nearby foliage, so the trailing dog will frequently have its "nose the ground," unlike the air scent dog.

A Bloodhound is typically trained for scent discrimination. Each dog is usually worked in a harness, on a leash, and given an uncontaminated scent article (such as a piece of clothing) belonging to the missing person. The dog follows that scent and no other. At times, the dog may track, following the person's footsteps, or air scent, and home in on the subject's scent.
Field contamination (scent of others) should not affect his work. He should be able to trail scents on pavements, streets, grass, water, etc. If there is a good scent article and a point where the person was last seen, a trailing dog can be the fastest way to find the victim. Without the scent article and a point where the person was last seen, these dogs cannot work effectively.

While those are the two standard types of search and rescue dogs, there are also other dogs trained to find lost people.

TRACKING DOG

A tracking dog is trained to follow the path of a certain person. It physically tracks the path of the person, without relying on air scenting. This dog is usually worked in a harness and on leash. This type of dog is effective when pursuing an escaped criminal if no scent article is available. These dogs are also used successfully in search and rescue operations.

http://www.ussartf.org/dogs_search_rescue.htm

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 14, 2015, 10:39:18 PM
Here you go Misty,

16 sep 2004 CM



The authorities also decided to investigate again the family of small Joana, 8 years of age, as well as various other people that could provide clues about the mysterious case. The truth, however, is that the efforts made have had no effect. Leonor Cipriano, the mother of the child already speaks in "abduction" and asks: "Don't do evil to Joana".
Second found the CM, two teams cinotecnicas (man/dog) were used in the actions of search triggered in the fields around this rural village. The soldiers were conducting, including various wells, a stream and a channel for irrigation which passes close to the village, disproved the existence of traces of the girl.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/mae-confessa-morte-da-filha-por-acidente

Thank you for that, Anna. I'm not very familiar with most of the finer details of the investigation into Joana's disappearance.
It's a shame there isn't a little more information regarding any trailing done from the family home.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 10:48:44 PM
Thank you for that, Anna. I'm not very familiar with most of the finer details of the investigation into Joana's disappearance.
It's a shame there isn't a little more information regarding any trailing done from the family home.

I will have a look, Misty, but I don't think there was.
Their home didn't even have the road built at that time, so I should imagine it was all of the area surrounding it that was being searched. Also wells etc.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 11:21:18 PM
Two sniffer dogs from the GNR specialised dog unit in Queluz were deployed at 11pm on the 4th May ie some 24 hours after Madeleine disappeared.  Handler Sgt Antonio Silva states in his report...

The deponent states that:
 - He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team. He coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas relating to the disappearance of the English minor Madeleine McCann from the Ocean Club.
 - He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23H00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.
 - That after having given the sniffer dog the towel and next to the residence of the missing girl, more specifically, next to apartment block 5A and 5, the first sniffer dog headed toward the door of that apartment. Immediately afterward, he headed in the direction of block 4, returned around block 5, and came down a road that exists between this block and the leisure area (pools, restaurants, etc). He turned right; in the direction of the aforementioned apartment and headed toward the main road. There, he crossed the street and next to the wall of block 6, turned right, and headed toward the contiguous parking area. More concretely, he headed next to a light post and sniffed the ground around that post. After this, he crossed the street again and headed toward the access zone to the restaurants and pool area, sniffing the door which was closed at that time. He again went to the parking zone, and at that point, lost the scent.
 - When carrying out this operation with the second dog, he followed the same rout, took the same direction and headed toward the light post in the parking lot mentioned above. He sniffed the area and at that point appeared to have lost the scent. The only difference was that this dog did not head toward the entrance of the restaurant or the pool area.


www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm


(http://i.imgur.com/a4b5S8P.jpg?1)

Sniffer dogs both lost Madeleine's scent by the lamp post shown in the foreground giving support to the theory that she somehow got out of the apartment on her own but was lifted having crossed the road to the car park.

It is worth pointing out that none of the specialist dogs marked the route taken by Tannerman.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 14, 2015, 11:31:25 PM
Mystery solved then John.  8((()*/
These dogs were in fact trailing/tracking dogs?
Thank goodness that is sorted....I hope.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 11:41:43 PM
Mystery solved then John.  8((()*/
These dogs were in fact trailing/tracking dogs?
Thank goodness that is sorted....I hope.

I think it was worth the effort as I now realise three types of dogs were used by various specialist units within the GNR.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 11:45:46 PM
Not when Kate said all the gates were closed. Unless you're calling her a liar  8)--))

A nearly 4-year-old could easily get over a child gate.  My grandson (19 months) can climb out of his high sided cot.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 14, 2015, 11:49:13 PM
A nearly 4-year-old could easily get over a child gate.  My grandson (19 months) can climb out of his high sided cot.

The bottom gate was closed according to Kate.

But this theory was reported.

(http://dogsdontlie.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/4626344-199x300.jpg)

Madeleine McCann ‘died after fall down steps’
By Caroline Gammell in Praia da Luz
Last Updated: 12:01am BST 30/09/2007

Portuguese police believe Madeleine McCann died after falling down a flight of steps and that her parents panicked, hiding her body because they feared being blamed, it was claimed yesterday.
A senior detective told Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas: “The only thing to investigate is how the body disappeared.”
But yesterday, a source close to the couple hit back at the allegations.
“Where is the proof that this happened? Madeleine was put to bed at 7pm and there was a witness. When is Madeleine supposed to have fallen? “If the police are 100 per cent certain that Madeleine fell down some steps, that means they must be able to prove she died in that way. It’s just not possible without a body.”
http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/09/madeleine-mccann-died-after-fall-down-steps/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on July 14, 2015, 11:52:41 PM
The bottom gate was closed according to Kate.

Easily opened as it wasn't locked.

(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/K/DSC05261.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on July 15, 2015, 12:00:52 AM
Easily opened as it wasn't locked.

(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/K/DSC05261.jpg)

By the looks of it there isn't even a catch or a snib.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 15, 2015, 12:01:56 AM
Not when Kate said all the gates were closed. Unless you're calling her a liar  8)--))

Pathfinder, please tell me what are you talking about?
We were discussing which type of dogs were deployed that would need to sniff a personal item belonging to a missing person
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 12:11:14 AM
Easily opened as it wasn't locked.

(http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/K/DSC05261.jpg)

I agree but it wouldn't be found closed. All the movements that night and nobody bumped into her is heading back into fantasyluzland. She comes out crosses the road and immediately meets the most evil person in PDL who throws her in the car and takes off. Not having it. No witnesses reported screaming or cars taking off at great speed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on July 15, 2015, 12:15:59 AM
I agree but it wouldn't be found closed. All the movements that night and nobody bumped into her is heading back into fantasyluzland. She comes out crosses the road and immediately meets the most evil person in PDL who throws her in the car and takes off. Not having it. No witnesses reported screaming or cars taking off at great speed.

There was no need to take off with wheels spinning and the gate probably swings closed in any event.  A small child wouldn't have opened it fully anyway as they tend to slide through the smallest gap.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 15, 2015, 12:17:13 AM
I agree but it wouldn't be found closed. All the movements that night and nobody bumped into her is heading back into fantasyluzland. She comes out crosses the road and immediately meets the most evil person in PDL who throws her in the car and takes off. Not having it. No witnesses reported screaming or cars taking off at great speed.

What about the Joyces who made a long statement to the police, which is not in the public files?
 

Sniffer dogs tracked Maddy to supermarket Daily Mail

 

Last updated at 10:37 06 May 2007

 

A key witness has told police she saw two people in a car acting suspiciously near to the supermarket where tracker dogs lost Madeleine's scent giving rise to fears she was transferred to a vehicle.

 

Joyce Joyce, from Dublin, who is in her 60s, saw the black saloon less than 30 minutes before the toddler went missing.

 

Mrs Joyce's husband, semi-retired businessman Bob, said: 'We have an apartment close by. At around 8.30pm on Thursday Joyce saw a black saloon car reversing sharply close to where Madeleine went missing. Joyce hadn't seen the the two occupants before and they were acting in a very strange way. I reported the sighting to police but they didn't seem that interested. But I went back to see detectives the next day and, thankfully, they took a long statement from my wife. They are now investigating everything and seem to think our information is important.'
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Their apartment was in Estrela da Luz. I think.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 12:32:01 AM
There was no need to take off with wheels spinning and the gate probably swings closed in any event.  A small child wouldn't have opened it fully anyway as they tend to slide through the smallest gap.

Correct but to come out of an apartment without being noticed or heard after crying for her daddy all night Tuesday and immediately meeting the devil doesn't fit does it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 15, 2015, 01:06:54 AM
A nearly 4-year-old could easily get over a child gate.  My grandson (19 months) can climb out of his high sided cot.

I think thta depends on the height of the gate and the height of the child, John.  According to Kate Madeleine was about 90cm tall.

Balcony retaining walls and railings legally have to be above a certain height in the UK.   As Osean Club co-owner, manager and architect, G Robin Crosland, a Brit, was UK trained I suspect.  If so, then by his very position and profession he would be held responsible in cases of accidents.  I think he would be certian to be very careful about such matters.

http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/5ababyGate_small.jpg
(http://gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/5ababyGate_small.jpg)

I would think that the top of the gate would be about forehead level on Madeleine.  Girls are not as strong as boys but she is a plucky girl and she just might have had a crack at it [As I am writing this I am thinking nah ... tbh.]


- But look at the drop on the other side and the 9 or 10 stone/ concrete steps below!
I dont think that she would have been that daft ! 

- Also where were the skin marks/ blood when she scrazed herself as she surely would?

- The steps are steep.  It is highly likely that someone unaccustomed to scrambling over gates would make a tidy landing on the narrow top step.  Almost certianly she would have partially landed half down the second step then fallen further  Why didn't they hear her screams?

- And how come thta she didn't do the obvious thing and yell her Mum and Dad.  She could clearly see the group just 50 metres away and would almost undoubtably hear them chatting.  Why didn't she yell them?

- As she came out of the patio door, moving the curtains aside, a beam of light would have shone out illunimating the railings.  How come no-one saw that?

- Just why didn't the dogs find the scent there?



Nah .... soz John .... she didn't climb that gate. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 15, 2015, 02:25:13 AM
What a load of presumptuous rubbish sade

there is no way a child could have signalled their parents at the noisy tapas bar from the balcony of their flat
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 15, 2015, 02:59:50 AM
What a load of presumptuous rubbish sade

there is no way a child could have signalled their parents at the noisy tapas bar from the balcony of their flat
A mother hears the cry of her children above all else.  The waiters say that the Tapas party was not noisy
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 15, 2015, 03:20:01 AM
A mother hears the cry of her children above all else.  The waiters say that the Tapas partiy was not noisy
Madeleine could have choked and died and her parents not know

sadie,the kids  out off sight and sound, end of
andthe parents so called checks were never about about the kids being fine,just that they werent making a noise!!!

As for the restaraunt / party noise, wrong, by all accounts was a boisterous gathering, please don't pretend it was a quiet meal, with a clear vision of the flat, with eyes glued on it throughout the evening, thats plain unrealistic!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 15, 2015, 06:11:51 AM
Not when Kate said all the gates were closed. Unless you're calling her a liar  8)--))

The dogs went out of the front door of the apartment, so nowhere near the gates.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 15, 2015, 08:11:18 AM
A mother hears the cry of her children above all else.  The waiters say that the Tapas party was not noisy
At the recent wedding in Gib, one of the kids toppled into the pool on board the boat and struggled in the water.

Who went to the rescue?  His dad took shoes off (?????) then dived in fully clothed.  The onlookers applauded. 

The cost of this rescue was that his mobile gave up the ghost.  But sticking it in a bag of rice restored it to life.

All's well that ends well.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 15, 2015, 10:32:32 AM
At the recent wedding in Gib, one of the kids toppled into the pool on board the boat and struggled in the water.

Who went to the rescue?  His dad took shoes off (?????) then dived in fully clothed.  The onlookers applauded. 

The cost of this rescue was that his mobile gave up the ghost.  But sticking it in a bag of rice restored it to life.

All's well that ends well.

                                               Maybe they were Louboutin   8**8:/:
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 15, 2015, 09:23:05 PM
Two sniffer dogs from the GNR specialised dog unit in Queluz were deployed at 11pm on the 4th May ie some 24 hours after Madeleine disappeared.  Handler Sgt Antonio Silva states in his report...

The deponent states that:
 - He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team. He coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas relating to the disappearance of the English minor Madeleine McCann from the Ocean Club.
 - He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23H00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.
 - That after having given the sniffer dog the towel and next to the residence of the missing girl, more specifically, next to apartment block 5A and 5, the first sniffer dog headed toward the door of that apartment. Immediately afterward, he headed in the direction of block 4, returned around block 5, and came down a road that exists between this block and the leisure area (pools, restaurants, etc). He turned right; in the direction of the aforementioned apartment and headed toward the main road. There, he crossed the street and next to the wall of block 6, turned right, and headed toward the contiguous parking area. More concretely, he headed next to a light post and sniffed the ground around that post. After this, he crossed the street again and headed toward the access zone to the restaurants and pool area, sniffing the door which was closed at that time. He again went to the parking zone, and at that point, lost the scent.
 - When carrying out this operation with the second dog, he followed the same rout, took the same direction and headed toward the light post in the parking lot mentioned above. He sniffed the area and at that point appeared to have lost the scent. The only difference was that this dog did not head toward the entrance of the restaurant or the pool area.


www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm


(http://i.imgur.com/a4b5S8P.jpg?1)

Sniffer dogs both lost Madeleine's scent by the lamp post shown in the foreground giving support to the theory that she somehow got out of the apartment on her own but was lifted having crossed the road to the car park.

It is worth pointing out that none of the specialist dogs marked the route taken by Tannerman.

Last sentence! Interesting.

 &%+((£

PS thanks Anna
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 16, 2015, 01:04:28 AM
Last sentence! Interesting.

 &%+((£

PS thanks Anna
Very unlikely that they would mark the route taken by Tannerman, cos he was carrying Madeleine and it was a very gusty night.   

No Madeleine foot scent there , just air scent and gusty winds. 

No scent left to follow of Madeleines ... in such conditions.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 16, 2015, 01:18:15 AM
Very unlikely that they would mark the route taken by Tannerman, cos he was carrying Madeleine and it was a very gusty night.   

No Madeleine foot scent there , just air scent and gusty winds. 

No scent left to follow of Madeleines ... in such conditions.

But they followed   ?

 @)(++(*”
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 16, 2015, 01:26:56 AM
But they followed   ?

 @)(++(*”

Who knows what scent they may have followed, Mercury. Had it been Madeleine's, the dogs should have at least wanted to go in through the apartment gate & up the steps - but they didn't.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 01:47:55 AM
Who knows what scent they may have followed, Mercury. Had it been Madeleine's, the dogs should have at least wanted to go in through the apartment gate & up the steps - but they didn't.
Dogs can detect direction.
Otherwise 50% of dogs tracking a missing person would lead you exactly in the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 16, 2015, 03:19:38 AM
Dogs can detect direction.
Otherwise 50% of dogs tracking a missing person would lead you exactly in the wrong direction.

Then you have to go back to exactly what the dogs were trained to do.
Why did one S&R dog track to the Tapas Bar entrance but the other one didn't?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 16, 2015, 07:35:08 AM
Very unlikely that they would mark the route taken by Tannerman, cos he was carrying Madeleine and it was a very gusty night.   

No Madeleine foot scent there , just air scent and gusty winds. 

No scent left to follow of Madeleines ... in such conditions.

Don't you mean Crecheman who wasn't carrying Madeleine? An even better reason why they didn't follow that route.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 11:42:08 AM
Then you have to go back to exactly what the dogs were trained to do.
Why did one S&R dog track to the Tapas Bar entrance but the other one didn't?
Maybe where the most recent scent trail ended, one dog switched to tracing a less recent scent trail of the same scent source?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 16, 2015, 11:58:39 AM
Maybe where the most recent scent trail ended, one dog switched to tracing a less recent scent trail of the same scent source?

What is the kids creche to tapas route at 5pm on 3 May? Do they use the safer shortcut path route and cross the road at the lamppost opposite the entrance?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 16, 2015, 02:02:07 PM
What is the kids creche to tapas route at 5pm on 3 May? Do they use the safer shortcut path route and cross the road at the lamppost opposite the entrance?

Why did the dogs go this way though?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 02:17:54 PM
What is the kids creche to tapas route at 5pm on 3 May? Do they use the safer shortcut path route and cross the road at the lamppost opposite the entrance?
Presumably yes. It would be the only sensible route IMO.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 16, 2015, 02:31:27 PM
Why did the dogs go this way though?

They couldn't turn right after leaving the front door, because there was a wall there. There was also a walled pathway which they would have to follow. It looks to me as if they were following the lingering smell of food coming from the restaurant. However I am most probably wrong.
IIRC They showed interest in some food in refuse bags and then an apartment that had rotten food in the fridge.

When the children were taken out of the front door, would that not be a route to the crèche or Main reception?
And was it possible that Gerry and Kate's scent was also on that blanket?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 16, 2015, 02:34:50 PM
Why did the dogs go this way though?

That is the route to the creche crossing the road to the lamppost. You keep on the shortcut path. If they took the dogs passed the big open car park they may have got her picked up her scent again on the shortcut route to the creche.

From memory, on Tuesday, 1 May 2007, being shown by RUSSELL, he went to pick up MADELEINE at creche using a short-cut that began at the car park opposite the secondary reception and went between the buildings, which he used to fetch and carry his daughter.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 16, 2015, 02:44:12 PM
They couldn't turn right after leaving the front door, because there was a wall there. There was also a walled pathway which they would have to follow. It looks to me as if they were following the lingering smell of food coming from the restaurant. However I am most probably wrong.
IIRC They showed interest in some food in refuse bags and then an apartment that had rotten food in the fridge.

When the children were taken out of the front door, would that not be a route to the crèche or Main reception?
And was it possible that Gerry and Kate's scent was also on that blanket?

I think the dogs took that route because the scent of whatever it was that interested them was still there.

It is a relatively sheltered route with little reason for many members of the general public to take it and thus contaminate with their scent ... it is perfectly possible that the last people to use the route followed could have been the McCann family.

When they went out into the street there was more potential for the scent to be dissipated by the breeze as it was less sheltered it was also subject to more passing foot traffic and therefore soon lost.

Taking the training of the dogs into account, or rather the lack of it ... I think although possible it is highly improbable that they followed Madeleine's unique scent.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 03:21:57 PM
"after having given the sniffer dog the towel and next to the residence of the missing girl, more specifically, next to apartment 5A of block 5, the first sniffer dog headed toward the door of that apartment"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

Did the most recent scent on the north side of the building lead directionally not away from the front door, but towards it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 16, 2015, 05:54:05 PM
"after having given the sniffer dog the towel and next to the residence of the missing girl, more specifically, next to apartment 5A of block 5, the first sniffer dog headed toward the door of that apartment"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm

Did the most recent scent on the north side of the building lead directionally not away from the front door, but towards it?


It seems that the dogs were not interested in the apartment, the interior of block 5 or the back entrance and stairs to the apartment.

**snip
- None of the dogs used in this search, after having been given the towel supposedly used by the child, entered into block 5 but went immediately to the street between the apartment and the leisure area.

It should be taken into account that the second sniffer dog may have been conditioned by the first sniffer dog. That is to say that in the case of doubt, the second dog may have followed the second of the first.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 16, 2015, 08:53:59 PM
They couldn't turn right after leaving the front door, because there was a wall there. There was also a walled pathway which they would have to follow. It looks to me as if they were following the lingering smell of food coming from the restaurant. However I am most probably wrong.
IIRC They showed interest in some food in refuse bags and then an apartment that had rotten food in the fridge.

When the children were taken out of the front door, would that not be a route to the crèche or Main reception?
And was it possible that Gerry and Kate's scent was also on that blanket?

Why would they head towards block 4 and go between blocks 4 and 5 to the path behind the apartments? it's a bit like Creche man's meandering route home from the night creche, it makes no sense.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 09:27:02 PM
The logical place to start a tracker dog from would be the bed.
The large number of canine footprints found on 4th prove a dog had been inside 5A.
Not in published files. But Sol article (if true) describes it, and the result is strange.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 16, 2015, 09:37:57 PM
Why would they head towards block 4 and go between blocks 4 and 5 to the path behind the apartments? it's a bit like Creche man's meandering route home from the night creche, it makes no sense.

I have no idea, G. And we can't ask the dogs can we? No more than we can ask crecheman what he was doing on his mystery Tour.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 09:41:27 PM
Why would they head towards block 4 and go between blocks 4 and 5 to the path behind the apartments? it's a bit like Creche man's meandering route home from the night creche, it makes no sense.
Its a bit further but a better route with children.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 16, 2015, 09:49:00 PM
Its a bit further but a better route with children.

I see what you mean.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 17, 2015, 08:24:21 AM
Its a bit further but a better route with children.

It was, but they didn't use it according to their statements.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 17, 2015, 11:47:57 AM
Why would they head towards block 4 and go between blocks 4 and 5 to the path behind the apartments? it's a bit like Creche man's meandering route home from the night creche, it makes no sense.

It makes sense with 3 young toddlers walking not down those dangerous steps. That is the normal safe route taken.

3 May

After breakfast they got dressed and left the apartment by the main door. All children went walking. The veranda door was closed and locked; she doesn't know whether the main door was locked or unlocked.

After leaving the apartment they left the twins at the creche next to the Tapas; at the same time she supposes that Gerry took Madeleine to the creche next to the 24-hour reception area.

14:45
They went via a path in front of the small reception and then through gardens and stairs, taking a short cut. This route was the one mentioned by Gerry.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

(http://i.imgur.com/xwVMaAP.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 17, 2015, 01:58:02 PM
They went into the car park opposite the Tapas reception and cut through there to the main recepton. No mention ever of going around block 5, cutting between blocks 5 and 4 and going down the path by the gardens as per the sniffer dog's route.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 03:58:09 PM
In a totally different case in a different country, if a missing person remained in their residence, what relevance would routes traced by tracker dogs outdoors have?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 17, 2015, 10:24:32 PM
I thought it had been discussed that the GNR dog trails going around the apartments before crossing the road and disappearing at he car park opposte the Tapas restaraunt may have related to the Mccanns younger children followed by  Madeleine following after them going around the apartments a day or so earlier? On their way to the daily creche? Icannot remember whose interview I read that in, but I definitely remember it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Admin on July 17, 2015, 10:56:19 PM
They went into the car park opposite the Tapas reception and cut through there to the main recepton. No mention ever of going around block 5, cutting between blocks 5 and 4 and going down the path by the gardens as per the sniffer dog's route.

They had to leave the twins at the kiddies club located beside the tapas bar first and then make for the junior club with Madeleine.  Members must realise that there were at least two childrens clubs in operation, one for toddlers located beside the tapas bar and another located above main reception for older children like Madeleine.

The plan below might help. No 6 marks the location of the twins club while no 13 marks the location of 24 hr reception above which was Madeleine's club.

(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/oceanclubmap3.gif)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 18, 2015, 12:43:32 AM
the dogs were following madeleines scent or the twins?

the police asked for madeleines clothes, they got them and her towel and her blanket
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 18, 2015, 06:40:26 AM
I thought it had been discussed that the GNR dog trails going around the apartments before crossing the road and disappearing at he car park opposte the Tapas restaraunt may have related to the Mccanns younger children followed by  Madeleine following after them going around the apartments a day or so earlier? On their way to the daily creche? Icannot remember whose interview I read that in, but I definitely remember it.

It was in Gerald McCann's statement, made after the dogs went that way;

That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2015, 09:23:05 AM
They had to leave the twins at the kiddies club located beside the tapas bar first and then make for the junior club with Madeleine.  Members must realise that there were at least two childrens clubs in operation, one for toddlers located beside the tapas bar and another located above main reception for older children like Madeleine.

The plan below might help. No 6 marks the location of the twins club while no 13 marks the location of 24 hr reception above which was Madeleine's club.

(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/oceanclubmap3.gif)

They crossed the road from the tapas to the lamppost so it's no surprise the dogs found Madeleine's scent there. That was on the short cut route to the creche.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 18, 2015, 10:02:30 AM
It was in Gerald McCann's statement, made after the dogs went that way;

That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins. That they had gone down to the furthest point away from those blocks, not knowing exactly how, the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]. Then they followed the inside corridor [pathway] at the rear, next to the hedges [fences] up to the street that led to the secondary reception.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

If the dogs had been following Madeleine's or even the twins scent, I would expect them to have at one stage gone off the path and into a garden ... "the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]."

I don't think it is possible to know what scent they were following or its significance (or not) in relation to Madeleine McCann.  The handlers reported only what the dogs did and the only opinion I can see mentioned is the possibility that the second dog might have been following the first ... giving the impression the handlers may not have been convinced they had followed Madeleine's scent.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2015, 10:19:00 AM
If the dogs had been following Madeleine's or even the twins scent, I would expect them to have at one stage gone off the path and into a garden ... "the three children got into the gardens at the rear [of the blocks]."

I don't think it is possible to know what scent they were following or its significance (or not) in relation to Madeleine McCann.  The handlers reported only what the dogs did and the only opinion I can see mentioned is the possibility that the second dog might have been following the first ... giving the impression the handlers may not have been convinced they had followed Madeleine's scent.

They did find Madeleine's scent. It is proven from statements and facts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 18, 2015, 11:00:09 AM
They did find Madeleine's scent. It is proven from statements and facts.

If they were following Madeleine's scent it was hugely significant.

If the scent came to an abrupt halt with both dogs losing it in a car park ... that is hugely significant.

It would appear that Madeleine had been taken from the apartment and taken by a circuitous route to a waiting vehicle.

Yet the significance of that would appear to have escaped the investigators who were already formulating suspicions about the involvement of Madeleine's parents in her disappearance ... the request to see a priest being one of the triggers for this.

No-one appears to have been asked about parked vehicles at that spot ... vehicles are only mentioned in passing by Mr Carpenter and the cook who appears to have had more concern about them than the police to whom he gave his statement.

Perhaps a perfect example of some of the search for evidence to solve a crime is ignored when the search for evidence to fit a theory is given paramount importance.

Why look for a live child when your theory dictates she is dead.

Why look for an outsider when your theory dictates it is an inside job.

Why look for a vehicle when your prime suspects have no access to one.

So if you are correct and the dogs did indeed follow Madeleine McCann's scent to the car park ... someone at the head of the investigation has an almighty sin to answer.



Madeleine McCann: The lost clues

CRUCIAL leads that could solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance are revealed today by the Sunday Express.

By JAMES MURRAY
PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, Apr 29, 2012 | UPDATED: 01:29, Sun, Apr 29, 2012

These vital clues were never followed up by the ­Portuguese police, according to Isabel Duarte, the ­Lisbon lawyer acting for Madeleine’s parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.

Shortly after Madeleine was taken from Apartment 5A at the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz, five years ago this Thursday, a sniffer dog picked up her scent at a nearby car park.

Mrs Duarte said: “This was a significant moment at a critical time, yet there is very ­little about it in the police files. There doesn’t appear to have been any forensic work at the spot in the car park identified by the dog. More work should have been done.”
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2015, 11:25:39 AM
If they were following Madeleine's scent it was hugely significant.

If the scent came to an abrupt halt with both dogs losing it in a car park ... that is hugely significant.

It would appear that Madeleine had been taken from the apartment and taken by a circuitous route to a waiting vehicle.

Yet the significance of that would appear to have escaped the investigators who were already formulating suspicions about the involvement of Madeleine's parents in her disappearance ... the request to see a priest being one of the triggers for this.

No-one appears to have been asked about parked vehicles at that spot ... vehicles are only mentioned in passing by Mr Carpenter and the cook who appears to have had more concern about them than the police to whom he gave his statement.

Perhaps a perfect example of some of the search for evidence to solve a crime is ignored when the search for evidence to fit a theory is given paramount importance.

Why look for a live child when your theory dictates she is dead.

Why look for an outsider when your theory dictates it is an inside job.

Why look for a vehicle when your prime suspects have no access to one.

So if you are correct and the dogs did indeed follow Madeleine McCann's scent to the car park ... someone at the head of the investigation has an almighty sin to answer.



Madeleine McCann: The lost clues

CRUCIAL leads that could solve the mystery of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance are revealed today by the Sunday Express.

By JAMES MURRAY
PUBLISHED: 00:00, Sun, Apr 29, 2012 | UPDATED: 01:29, Sun, Apr 29, 2012

These vital clues were never followed up by the ­Portuguese police, according to Isabel Duarte, the ­Lisbon lawyer acting for Madeleine’s parents, Kate and Gerry McCann.

Shortly after Madeleine was taken from Apartment 5A at the Ocean Club at Praia da Luz, five years ago this Thursday, a sniffer dog picked up her scent at a nearby car park.

Mrs Duarte said: “This was a significant moment at a critical time, yet there is very ­little about it in the police files. There doesn’t appear to have been any forensic work at the spot in the car park identified by the dog. More work should have been done.”
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/317111/Madeleine-McCann-The-lost-clues

Not really when the dogs came to a big open area and lost the scent trail - one dog crossed the road and went to the entrance but it was shut. Jane, Matt and Russell saw no cars parked on that road on their checks. Jes also said it was deserted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 18, 2015, 12:14:38 PM

Not really when the dogs came to a big open area and lost the scent trail - one dog crossed the road and went to the entrance but it was shut. Jane, Matt and Russell saw no cars parked on that road on their checks. Jes also said it was deserted.

 Quote - Jane, Matt and Russell saw no cars parked on that road on their checks. Jes also said it was deserted. End quote

Did they volunteer that information or was it mentioned in a response to the question in their statements?  I think I would really need a cite.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 18, 2015, 01:09:33 PM
They did find Madeleine's scent. It is proven from statements and facts.

Since Madeleine was never found by the dogs, how can anyone possibly know that it was Madeleine's scent that they followed?

The blanket would also have the scent of Kate and Gerry on it.
It was not a piece of clothing (usually used for scenting) that would have a stronger scent of the child's body, that was used for the dogs to sniff.
Sweat and an individual body smells. is what the dogs smell and try to trace.

I still believe that the dogs were confused by scents on that blanket.

How could anyone possibly prove that the dogs followed Madeleine's Scent when she was never found???
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2015, 03:37:24 PM
Quote - Jane, Matt and Russell saw no cars parked on that road on their checks. Jes also said it was deserted. End quote

Did they volunteer that information or was it mentioned in a response to the question in their statements?  I think I would really need a cite.

In their rogs.

In the same way he relates never to have perceived suspicious movements undertaken by any motor vehicles in the vicinity of the resort where they were lodged.

By the way, he relates never to have perceived the presence of a blue light motor vehicle in the vicinity of the Ocean Club Garden.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2015, 03:50:37 PM
Since Madeleine was never found by the dogs, how can anyone possibly know that it was Madeleine's scent that they followed?

The blanket would also have the scent of Kate and Gerry on it.
It was not a piece of clothing (usually used for scenting) that would have a stronger scent of the child's body, that was used for the dogs to sniff.
Sweat and an individual body smells. is what the dogs smell and try to trace.

I still believe that the dogs were confused by scents on that blanket.

How could anyone possibly prove that the dogs followed Madeleine's Scent when she was never found???

Madeleine's blanket was used. It was her scent they followed. It's amazing how many people underestimate the abilities of a dogs nose on this forum. 

During these holidays Madeleine usually slept clutching a soft toy, a pink cat, and sometimes wrapped in a pink blanket.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 18, 2015, 03:58:44 PM
In their rogs.

In the same way he relates never to have perceived suspicious movements undertaken by any motor vehicles in the vicinity of the resort where they were lodged.

By the way, he relates never to have perceived the presence of a blue light motor vehicle in the vicinity of the Ocean Club Garden.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm

is a blue light motor vehicle  a police car
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 18, 2015, 04:27:23 PM
Madeleine's blanket was used. It was her scent they followed. It's amazing how many people underestimate the abilities of a dogs nose on this forum. 

During these holidays Madeleine usually slept clutching a soft toy, a pink cat, and sometimes wrapped in a pink blanket.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

I do not have a problem with the abilities of a sniffer dog. They do a wonderful job.

However on the occasions that a trail leads nowhere and the person being searched for is unfound. There is no evidence to prove that they tracked that particular persons scent. Can you prove otherwise?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 18, 2015, 07:54:46 PM
Do we even know which of the two lamposts at that carpark the GNR dogs went to?
There is one near the entrance and one actually in the car park.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 18, 2015, 08:07:23 PM
I do not have a problem with the abilities of a sniffer dog. They do a wonderful job.

However on the occasions that a trail leads nowhere and the person being searched for is unfound. There is no evidence to prove that they tracked that particular persons scent. Can you prove otherwise?
Do we have any reports or photos of tracker dogs in the Hazell case in London? I mean non-evrd dogs used before 8th Aug 2012, outdoors. (I don't want details of evrd dog used indoors 8th to 10th, I want non-evrd dogs used outdoors 4th to 7th Aug).
What sort of results did they get from those outdoor tracking dogs?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 18, 2015, 08:46:02 PM
Do we even know which of the two lamposts at that carpark the GNR dogs went to?
There is one near the entrance and one actually in the car park.

The one opposite the entrance. There is nothing to be found there. The other dogs found the truth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33574800/rip-buster-the-sniffer-dog-who-saved-a-thousand-lives
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 18, 2015, 11:16:26 PM
How many vehicles were parked in the rear car park of Block 6?
Most witnesses only appear to have been asked about cars parked on the road or in Block 5 car park.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 18, 2015, 11:31:04 PM
The one opposite the entrance. There is nothing to be found there. The other dogs found the truth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33574800/rip-buster-the-sniffer-dog-who-saved-a-thousand-lives
In your theory (what as you know I disagree with) you have a bag is that right?
And closed the GNR dogs would not track its route, is that your theory?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 19, 2015, 08:56:47 AM
Since Madeleine was never found by the dogs, how can anyone possibly know that it was Madeleine's scent that they followed?

The blanket would also have the scent of Kate and Gerry on it.
It was not a piece of clothing (usually used for scenting) that would have a stronger scent of the child's body, that was used for the dogs to sniff.
Sweat and an individual body smells. is what the dogs smell and try to trace.

I still believe that the dogs were confused by scents on that blanket.

How could anyone possibly prove that the dogs followed Madeleine's Scent when she was never found???

We don't know that for sure, either way as the forensic results weren't negative, merely inconclusive.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 19, 2015, 02:38:49 PM
We don't know that for sure, either way as the forensic results weren't negative, merely inconclusive.

Sorry Stephen. I don’t understand your post ……We were discussing the tracking/sniffer dogs that used the blanket to sniff for her scent.

Was there a forensic report?

This is the message you replied too.....................................

Anna:-
Since Madeleine was never found by the dogs, how can anyone possibly know that it was Madeleine's scent that they followed?

The blanket would also have the scent of Kate and Gerry on it.
It was not a piece of clothing (usually used for scenting) that would have a stronger scent of the child's body, that was used for the dogs to sniff.
Sweat and an individual body smells. is what the dogs smell and try to trace.

I still believe that the dogs were confused by scents on that blanket.

How could anyone possibly prove that the dogs followed Madeleine's Scent when she was never found???


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 19, 2015, 03:12:37 PM
In your theory (what as you know I disagree with) you have a bag is that right?
And closed the GNR dogs would not track its route, is that your theory?

The dogs tracked her 3 May routes from the apartment using the path to the creche and from the tapas entrance to 5A front key door at 5:40. If she didn't leave the apartment alive and was carried away then they are not necessarily going to be able to track her.

This situation may be related to the fact that the biggest concentration of odours are in that area and due to the fact that odours are better preserved near walls and away from major winds. It is certain that upon reaching the main road and turning right is where the biggest concentration of odours exist. This is where the dog lost interest.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANTONIO_SILVA.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 19, 2015, 03:41:56 PM
@Pathfinder if your theory which I do not agree with were correct then the GNR dogs would only be able to track the earlier routes of times very approximate 09.00 outward, 13:00 inward, 14:00 outward, 17.30 inward, but would not be able to track a later route ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 19, 2015, 05:18:50 PM
@Pathfinder if your theory which I do not agree with were correct then the GNR dogs would only be able to track the earlier routes of times very approximate 09.00 outward, 13:00 inward, 14:00 outward, 17.30 inward, but would not be able to track a later route ?

If she was carried away later on the same normal path route then most of her scent will be found there. Jes used the outer road route as did checkers.

Route 1 from back of 5A to block 4 car park

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EvWzvKgSOro/VMoZ23SBKyI/AAAAAAAAKOQ/X6Zm-N2P1-4/s1600/route%2B1.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 19, 2015, 11:26:18 PM
Sorry Stephen. I don’t understand your post ……We were discussing the tracking/sniffer dogs that used the blanket to sniff for her scent.

Was there a forensic report?

This is the message you replied too.....................................

Anna:-
Since Madeleine was never found by the dogs, how can anyone possibly know that it was Madeleine's scent that they followed?

The blanket would also have the scent of Kate and Gerry on it.
It was not a piece of clothing (usually used for scenting) that would have a stronger scent of the child's body, that was used for the dogs to sniff.
Sweat and an individual body smells. is what the dogs smell and try to trace.

I still believe that the dogs were confused by scents on that blanket.

How could anyone possibly prove that the dogs followed Madeleine's Scent when she was never found???
What you say Anna is true in theory, (regarding mixed scents) whch makes you wonder what the point was if Madeleine was always with her family on a similar daily route (apart from the dogs trailing behind the apartments)

BTW three sets of dogs IIRC were given (separately) a) ablanket, b) a towel and then c) an item of her clothing, though the latter was the last set of searches a few days later when there wasn't much confidence it would yield any result, due to time lapsed, but they tried anyway, although the trailing exactly mirrored the first trail. I'm as confused as you.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 02:04:23 AM
Another case of police ignoring an alert by an EVRD dog - then weeks later finding the dog was right.
And a live demonstration by EVRD dog "Chance" (who alerts by sitting)
searching for and finding a real human scent source in the back room of a TV studio.
 http://youtu.be/ZseVVfswzPA
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 06:15:11 AM
Another case of police ignoring an alert by an EVRD dog - then weeks later finding the dog was right.
And a live demonstration by EVRD dog "Chance" (who alerts by sitting)
searching for and finding a real human scent source in the back room of a TV studio.
 http://youtu.be/ZseVVfswzPA

But Gerry McCann told Sandra Felgueiras, a Portuguese journalist in a TV interview that cadaver dogs are "incredibly unreliable"  and Kate McCann says in her book she was "relieved "when the blood and cadaver dogs  alerted in their apartment because they're "not scientific" . I was very surprised to read her "account of the truth "where she belittled their capabilities, makes you wonder quite a few thngs after all that garbage was spouted.

?

PS Pegasus you're not allowed to say EVRD dog as they don't exist except in Martin Grimes imagination according to Ferryman who also asserts Eddie never went to the USA to be trained on real human cadavers, though  Mr Grime's CV asserts he did.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 20, 2015, 07:35:30 AM
What you say Anna is true in theory, (regarding mixed scents) whch makes you wonder what the point was if Madeleine was always with her family on a similar daily route (apart from the dogs trailing behind the apartments)

BTW three sets of dogs IIRC were given (separately) a) ablanket, b) a towel and then c) an item of her clothing, though the latter was the last set of searches a few days later when there wasn't much confidence it would yield any result, due to time lapsed, but they tried anyway, although the trailing exactly mirrored the first trail. I'm as confused as you.

I have a doubt as to whether the blanket and the towel are two different items.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 12:44:39 PM
I have a doubt as to whether the blanket and the towel are two different items.

Why? Do you think there is no difference between what one handler describes as a Turkish towel used by the child and the other one on a search almost a day later  describing being given a pink/orange blanket the child used to sleep in?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 20, 2015, 01:08:25 PM
Why? Do you think there is no difference between what one handler describes as a Turkish towel used by the child and the other one on a search almost a day later  describing being given a pink/orange blanket the child used to sleep in?

These comfort blankets are small and normally made from a micro fibre, Mercury.
So I think that the blanket could very easily have been mistaken for a light towel.
When I read the statements, I assumed that the blanket had been mistaken for a towel.
However, does it really matter? There is still a fair chance that more than one person's scent was on the item.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 01:15:09 PM
These comfort blankets are small and normally made from a micro fibre, Mercury.
So I think that the blanket could very easily have been mistaken for a light towel.
When I read the statements, I assumed that the blanket had been mistaken for a towel.
However, does it really matter? There is still a fair chance that more than one person's scent was on the item.

No it doesn't matter as I said in my post yesterday. I was interested to know why Carana had doubts. The files clearly describe them in different ways.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 05:50:08 PM
But Gerry McCann told Sandra Felgueiras, a Portuguese journalist in a TV interview that cadaver dogs are "incredibly unreliable"  and Kate McCann says in her book she was "relieved "when the blood and cadaver dogs  alerted in their apartment because they're "not scientific" . I was very surprised to read her "account of the truth "where she belittled their capabilities, makes you wonder quite a few thngs after all that garbage was spouted.

?

PS Pegasus you're not allowed to say EVRD dog as they don't exist except in Martin Grimes imagination according to Ferryman who also asserts Eddie never went to the USA to be trained on real human cadavers, though  Mr Grime's CV asserts he did.
And maybe soon there will be a "cue" of peeps claiming that dog "Chance" in this live demonstration
http://youtu.be/ZseVVfswzPA alerted only because of cuing?
BTW IMO Mr G would look great in one of those shiny red dog-handler one-piece jumpsuits like handler Tracey is wearing
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 07:43:34 PM
And maybe soon there will be a "cue" of peeps claiming that dog "Chance" in this live demonstration
http://youtu.be/ZseVVfswzPA alerted only because of cuing?
BTW IMO Mr G would look great in one of those shiny red dog-handler one-piece jumpsuits like handler Tracey is wearing
oh, very good Pegasus !

But

Don't tempt fate.
PS He looked the business in his white boiler suit, lol.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 09:10:03 PM
Going back to this video
 http://youtu.be/ZseVVfswzPA
It was a missing child case.
A cadaver dog alerted to a garage.
Police ignored the dog.
Weeks later a body was found in the garage.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 20, 2015, 09:23:34 PM
Going back to this video
 http://youtu.be/ZseVVfswzPA
It was a missing child case.
A cadaver dog alerted to a garage.
Police ignored the dog.
Weeks later a body was found in the garage.

The cadaver dogs did not alert to begin with and the police, thought it was too dangerous to let the dogs go right into the garage...... Probably full of junk.
The Officer also thought it was too early to detect a cadaver scent?

Then a private person? with a cadaver dog got a hit, but still nothing was done at that time.


I think that is how I understood the video.

As for the handler who was interviewed and gave a demo?. I have no idea what she was doing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2015, 09:40:50 PM
Going back to this video
 http://youtu.be/ZseVVfswzPA
It was a missing child case.
A cadaver dog alerted to a garage.
Police ignored the dog.
Weeks later a body was found in the garage.

The police dogs did not alert initially ... the alert from a cadaver dog owned by a member of the public was ignored and not acted on (although we are not told of the circumstances in which this happened) ... it was only when the mother's boyfriend confessed to suffocating the baby after her mother had assaulted her and showed the police the box in the garage where he had hidden her that she was found.

There seems to have been a rather slip shod investigation carried out into the child's disappearance ... a blanket, the floor and the wall beside her crib were all bloodstained.

As far as I can see,Pegasus, there are no parallels with Madeleine's disappearance ... this was classic dysfunctional family ...

The child was only reported missing when she was not available for her father's custody visitation.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 10:19:00 PM
So a cadaver dog DID alert correctly. That's the whole point here, Why bring dysfunctional or not families into it rather than but just the fact or whether the dog alerted to a cadaver.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 21, 2015, 02:01:57 AM
The police dogs did not alert initially ... the alert from a cadaver dog owned by a member of the public was ignored and not acted on (although we are not told of the circumstances in which this happened) ... it was only when the mother's boyfriend confessed to suffocating the baby after her mother had assaulted her and showed the police the box in the garage where he had hidden her that she was found.

There seems to have been a rather slip shod investigation carried out into the child's disappearance ... a blanket, the floor and the wall beside her crib were all bloodstained.

As far as I can see,Pegasus, there are no parallels with Madeleine's disappearance ... this was classic dysfunctional family ...

The child was only reported missing when she was not available for her father's custody visitation.
The police did deploy cadaver dogs but did not allow them into the garage because the large amount of junk inside made it unsafe. The cadaver dog of a volunteer organisation working with the police however did alert to the garage, but police ignored its alert.
If we freeze that USA case at that point and pretend we don't know the solution....
the similarity between that USA case, and the PDL case today, (and the Addington case frozen on Thu 9th) would be...
missing child ... a dog alerted but was ignored ... case unsolved.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 21, 2015, 02:19:02 AM
The police did deploy cadaver dogs but did not allow them into the garage because the large amount of junk inside made it unsafe. The cadaver dog of a volunteer organisation working with the police however did alert to the garage, but police ignored its alert.
If we freeze that USA case at that point and pretend we don't know the solution....
the similarity between that USA case, and the PDL case today, (and the Addington case frozen on Thu 9th) would be...
missing child ... a dog alerted but was ignored ... case unsolved.
Did the dogs in the US case not indicate near the garage doors on first inspection, despite the complete cadaver being inside?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: misty on July 21, 2015, 02:27:13 AM
This is a case worth keeping an eye on.


http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07/17/deorr-kunz-missing-family-fear-abducted

Idaho authorities are now using sonar as well as divers to search a remote reservoir for missing 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr.  The toddler disappeared last Friday while camping with his family near the Stone Reservoir in Leadore.

Police divers have been methodically searching every square inch of the reservoir for the little boy after cadaver dogs indicated there may be something there. However, Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman tells HLN they just learned that someone had been dumping human cremains in the reservoir, and that very well could be the smell the dogs picked up on.

“It’s pretty disappointing. Someone was depositing human cremains up there while we’re searching the area. It contaminates the reservoir and the entire area,” says Bowerman.

“Nevertheless, we have sonar there today and divers still at the reservoir. We are going to side scan and sonar the whole lake. We have people up there on horseback too searching as we speak.”

The boy’s parents, DeOrr Kunz Sr. and Jessica Mitchell, told police they left the toddler with his great-grandfather and a friend of the great-grandfather’s to go exploring, but when they returned less than 15 minutes later, the child was nowhere to be found.  The great-grandfather, in turn, thought DeOrr was with his parents.  It was then that Mitchell called 911 to report her son missing.

While the couple remain up on the mountain waiting for any word of their son, his paternal grandfather, also named DeOrr Kunz, told HLN the family believes little DeOrr may have been kidnapped.

“He had little toy hot wheel trucks in his pocket and nothing fell. They found nothing.  It’s like he vanished without a trace.  He had to have been abducted.  The only good thing about being abducted is it means he’s is still alive,” says Kunz.

Authorities say while nothing has been ruled out, they don’t believe foul play is in involved.

“We are still treating it as a missing person,” says Sheriff Bowerman.

Bowerman says the National Center of Missing and Exploited Children have requested they collect DNA samples from the parents.

“They want that on file so if the child turns up somewhere else they can easily check if there’s a match. It’s standard procedure with all missing children,” Bowman said.

According to police, the parents have agreed and are “cooperating 100%.”  Authorities say they are concerned parents who just want to find their son and have even offered to take lie detector tests.

Bowerman says they will complete their search of the reservoir and re-assess at the end of the weekend where to focus on next. In the meantime, they are following up on all the leads and tips that keep coming in.

DeOrr’s grandfather says he’s heartbroken over his missing grandson.

“They've lived with me in my house for the past year and a half and he's my buddy. When he wants to take a nap he'll come up to me and say 'nap papa, nap papa,' so we'd lay down and take a nap. I’m so attached to him. I don't know what I'd do if we lost him. I just can't imagine going day to day without that little boy running around. I’m so sad. I’m just at a loss here.”

DeOrr was last seen wearing cowboy boots, blue pajama pants, and a camouflage jacket. 

Police are asking anyone with information to call 208-846-7676.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 21, 2015, 03:26:55 AM
@misty
"Parents ... thought their son's great-grandfather was looking after the boy - and the great-grandfather thought the parents had him"
It that respect is similar to the Kos case, one relative thinks other relative has child and vice versa, so the disappearance is not noticed immediately.

"There's a four-minute window where no one had an eye on him"
http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 21, 2015, 07:14:16 AM
the title of the thread is amaral and the dogs...the point being that amaral..the SIO ...drew incorrect conclusions from the alerts...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 21, 2015, 07:53:33 AM
the title of the thread is amaral and the dogs...the point being that amaral..the SIO ...drew incorrect conclusions from the alerts...

Take gerry mccanns advice to Sandra. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 21, 2015, 08:38:49 AM
the title of the thread is amaral and the dogs...the point being that amaral..the SIO ...drew incorrect conclusions from the alerts...

This is true, you only have to read his book to realise how ignorant he was about their abilities.  He apparently  thought  that an alert by Eddie proved that a body must have been present at the place where the dog alerted.  As we know from Martin Grime that is not true.

On the other hand -  if he wasn't ignorant of the facts, then IMO he cherry picked info about the dogs which suited his agenda and ignored anything which didn't      From a 'policing' point of view -  that's even worse than being a policeman who made errors because he hadn't done his homework properly IMO.

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 21, 2015, 09:08:56 AM
This is true, you only have to read his book to realise how ignorant he was about their abilities.  He apparently  thought  that an alert by Eddie proved that a body must have been present at the place where the dog alerted.  As we know from Martin Grime that is not true.

On the other hand -  if he wasn't ignorant of the facts, then IMO he cherry picked info about the dogs which suited his agenda and ignored anything which didn't      From a 'policing' point of view -  that's even worse than being a policeman who made errors because he hadn't done his homework properly IMO.

SY are looking for a body.

It is you who is ignorant to why they were brought in to investigate. Alerts in and outside the crime scene. On clothes including a kids top and no blood on the clothes. Harrison clearly states if Eddie alerts on his own and no body is there it has been removed. Eddie's first alert was at the wardrobe and Keela didn't alert there. Grime clearly states his professional opinion is the EVRD alerts were for cadaver but they need to be corroborated.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 21, 2015, 09:42:18 AM
SY are looking for a body.

It is you who is ignorant to why they were brought in to investigate. Alerts in and outside the crime scene. On clothes including a kids top and no blood on the clothes. Harrison clearly states if Eddie alerts on his own and no body is there it has been removed. Eddie's first alert was at the wardrobe and Keela didn't alert there. Grime clearly states his professional opinion is the EVRD alerts were for cadaver but they need to be corroborated.

As children who are abducted and murdered are often found comparatively near to where the abduction took place, then it is not surprising if the police are searching for a body.  However anyone who thinks the police believe it was the McCanns wotdunnit - is going to be very disappointed IMO.

Martin Grime makes it plain that there are various other scenarios (apart from a dead body) as to why cadaverscent may be present.   It is because of these other possible reasons that no evidencial value can be placed on an alert unless it is corroborated.       

AFAIK - Not once does he say an alert by Eddie is suggestive of a cadaver i.e. (dead body).   He always uses the word 'Cadaverscent' - which according to him, could be present for perfectly innocent reasons -   cross contamination being one of them.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 21, 2015, 09:51:32 AM
I see that nutball Birch is at it again.

His LinkedIn page claim says everything about him.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 21, 2015, 10:02:02 AM
As children who are abducted and murdered are often found comparatively near to where the abduction took place, then it is not surprising if the police are searching for a body.  However anyone who thinks the police believe it was the McCanns wotdunnit - is going to be very disappointed IMO.

Martin Grime makes it plain that there are various other scenarios (apart from a dead body) as to why cadaverscent may be present.   It is because of these other possible reasons that no evidencial value can be placed on an alert unless it is corroborated.       

AFAIK - Not once does he say an alert by Eddie is suggestive of a cadaver i.e. (dead body).   He always uses the word 'Cadaverscent' - which according to him, could be present for perfectly innocent reasons -   cross contamination being one of them.

There was no evidence found of cross contamination from other deaths there or contaminated furniture. Smithman took the risk to move her probably to the dark deserted beach/rocks but it doesn't mean she stayed there. The safest closest place to quickly hide under rocks (he's not digging a hole is he?) and later retrieve a body in the dark and not near street lights.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 21, 2015, 10:22:54 AM
There was no evidence found of cross contamination from other deaths there or contaminated furniture. Smithman took the risk to move her probably to the dark deserted beach/rocks but it doesn't mean she stayed there. The safest closest place to quickly hide under rocks (he's not digging a hole is he?) and later retrieve a body in the dark and not near street lights.

I see you have ignored the point I made that Martin Grime never uses the word cadaver - only cadaverscent.  In fact he is careful not to do that in his videos.

If you believe a dead body must have been in 5A at some time because of the alerts - then it's Martin Grime you are disagreeing with.

Whoever took Madeleine from 5A - I agree with the AG and SY that it wasn't the McCanns, as there is no evidence
that they were in any way involved.

In order to think they were involved then IMO you first have to remove all common sense, logic and reasoned thought from the equation.




Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 05:53:27 PM
I see you have ignored the point I made that Martin Grime never uses the word cadaver - only cadaverscent.  In fact he is careful not to do that in his videos.

If you believe a dead body must have been in 5A at some time because of the alerts - then it's Martin Grime you are disagreeing with.

Whoever took Madeleine from 5A - I agree with the AG and SY that it wasn't the McCanns, as there is no evidence
that they were in any way involved.

In order to think they were involved then IMO you first have to remove all common sense, logic and reasoned thought from the equation.

Cadaver scent  normally comes from cadavers, ie dead bodies and not fertiliser, toenails , sticky plasters with blood on them or bad breath or any of the ridiculous other examples given by the apologists.And Mr Grime was hardly going to say "yes, the cadaver dog barking MUST mean someone died here" . There can be some reasons when this isn't the case. The odds are stacked though here IMO higher than lower.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 22, 2015, 07:39:23 PM
Cadaver scent  normally comes from cadavers, ie dead bodies and not fertiliser, toenails , sticky plasters with blood on them or bad breath or any of the ridiculous other examples given by the apologists.And Mr Grime was hardly going to say "yes, the cadaver dog barking MUST mean someone died here" . There can be some reasons when this isn't the case. The odds are stacked though here IMO higher than lower.

What you think the odds are is of no importance
It is what Grime thinks that is important....and he has not told us
What he has told us is that it is not certain
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 07:41:48 PM
What you think the odds are is of no importance
It is what Grime thinks that is important....and he has not told us
What he has told us is that it is not certain

Well exactly he's said the odds are....not certain Lol IE  theres more of a chance his dog detected death

His cadVer dog detects death remember
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 08:04:12 PM
I see that nutball Birch is at it again.

His LinkedIn page claim says everything about him.

He is probably one of the few aspects of this case that most of us can agree is - at best - nonsensical. 

But he has his little fan club of people, some of whom may have serious mental health issues and might obey his commands. That must be very scary for an elderly lady. And his latest propaganda target is just as bad.

At the same time, for anyone who finds it unlikely that any one of the T9 would have knocked on the door and asked if they could be so kind as to allow them  to bury a child in their garden for a month or two, is it any more likely than any one of them would have knocked on some other stranger's door to ask if they would mind stuffing a large package in their freezer for a couple of months?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 10:06:36 PM
He is probably one of the few aspects of this case that most of us can agree is - at best - nonsensical. 

But he has his little fan club of people, some of whom may have serious mental health issues and might obey his commands. That must be very scary for an elderly lady. And his latest propaganda target is just as bad.

At the same time, for anyone who finds it unlikely that any one of the T9 would have knocked on the door and asked if they could be so kind as to allow them  to bury a child in their garden for a month or two, is it any more likely than any one of them would have knocked on some other stranger's door to ask if they would mind stuffing a large package in their freezer for a couple of months?
So a nut job is the only thing we can agree about? LOL How generous of you Carana.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 10:08:34 PM
So a nut job is the only thing we can agree about? LOL How generous of you Carana.

I didn't say that it was the only one.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 10:10:32 PM
I didn't say that it was the only one. You did. ;)

you only "just" escaped dear from the crime you and your ilk commit all the time, never mind I forgive you this time
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 22, 2015, 10:17:22 PM
Cadaver scent  normally comes from cadavers, ie dead bodies and not fertiliser, toenails , sticky plasters with blood on them or bad breath or any of the ridiculous other examples given by the apologists.And Mr Grime was hardly going to say "yes, the cadaver dog barking MUST mean someone died here" . There can be some reasons when this isn't the case. The odds are stacked though here IMO higher than lower.

If you or I slice the tip of a finger off tomorrow (which I hope won't happen), the sliced bit of finger will smell of "cadaver" to a trained dog.

Does that mean that we've died?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 22, 2015, 10:23:36 PM
If you or I slice the tip of a finger off tomorrow (which I hope won't happen), the sliced bit of finger will smell of "cadaver" to a trained dog.

Does that mean that we've died?

No but if we are missing as well it might raise questions
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 01:04:33 AM
If you or I slice the tip of a finger off tomorrow (which I hope won't happen), the sliced bit of finger will smell of "cadaver" to a trained dog.

Does that mean that we've died?
If GNR/PJ had done a complete fingertip search we probably wouldn't still be here discussing it today
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2015, 01:10:38 AM
If GNR/PJ had done a complete fingertip search we probably wouldn't still be here discussing it today

Nice one, Pegasus, took me a couple of minutes but I got there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 01:36:10 AM
If GNR/PJ had done a complete fingertip search we probably wouldn't still be here discussing it today

But the dogs did do a search and thats  whyalso we are discussing  thngs these days...the dogs findings have not been explained

Oh Oh ignore this post LOL! Peggy yu are a naughty, b....r!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 01:37:36 AM
Nice one, Pegasus, took me a couple of minutes but I got there.
There is no end to the ideas some peeps will resort to to dismiss Eddie's alerts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 01:46:09 AM
But the dogs did do a search and thats  whyalso we are discussing  thngs these days...the dogs findings have not been explained
If you mean the GNR dogs - it's not the first case where the way in which police have deployed and interpreted tracking/trailing dogs has resulted in missing the solution.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 01:47:36 AM
There is no end to the ideas some peeps will resort to to dismiss Eddie's alerts.
is it ok go barge in

clipped toenails
semen /used condoms
used plasters
bad breath
period blood
abortions
dead pigs
fertiliser
soiled nappies

there are more
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 01:57:09 AM
is it ok go barge in

clipped toenails
semen /used condoms
used plasters
bad breath
period blood
abortions
dead pigs
fertiliser
soiled nappies

there are more
And compost, and algae.
But the point is - some of the EVRD alerts were misinterpreted, because...
IMO the alert assumed to be to the toy was not to the toy.
IMO clothing items alerted to were not being worn at the relevant time but investigators illogically assumed they were..
Those two errors by humans led to a drastically wrong conclusion being made IMO
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 02:00:51 AM
And compost, and algae.
But the point is - some of the EVRD alerts were misinterpreted, because...
IMO the alert assumed to be to the toy was not to the toy.
IMO clothing items alerted to were not being worn at the relevant time.
Those two errors by humans led to a drastically wrong conclusion being made IMO

so....which dog alerts were valid in your eyes and what did they mean, se you, have to log off catch up tomorrow
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 06:42:23 AM
so....which dog alerts were valid in your eyes and what did they mean, se you, have to log off catch up tomorrow

No dog alerts were valid because too many of them were demonstrably unreliable.

Why could Eddie "find" a scent on cuddle-cat when it was hidden in a cupboard he could find no trace of all the time he could see it, sniff it and pick it up?

Why could Eddie find no trace of a scent on clothing in the villa, yet "find" scent on the same clothing after it was transported to the gym?

We know what scent he found in the Renault Scenic and it wasn't incriminating (Gerry's blood).

Why were the inspections of all other villas whistle-stop, yet long-drawn-out and protracted in apartment 5a

....


And so on.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2015, 10:37:17 AM
No dog alerts were valid because too many of them were demonstrably unreliable.

Why could Eddie "find" a scent on cuddle-cat when it was hidden in a cupboard he could find no trace of all the time he could see it, sniff it and pick it up?

Why could Eddie find no trace of a scent on clothing in the villa, yet "find" scent on the same clothing after it was transported to the gym?

We know what scent he found in the Renault Scenic and it wasn't incriminating (Gerry's blood).

Why were the inspections of all other villas whistle-stop, yet long-drawn-out and protracted in apartment 5a

....


And so on.

This is why the toy was hidden and a second test performed:

Training starts as a game played with puppies, starting with simple reward-based training (i.e. puppy is given a treat or allowed to play with a toy upon showing a simple skill such as retrieving the toy and bringing it back to the trainer) and expanding outward to "games" with more specific job skills (i.e. a well-loved toy is scented with the desired scent to find; when puppy finds the toy, he/she is allowed to play with the toy; later, scent and toy are separated so that puppy will search for the scent and is rewarded with the toy afterward).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 01:28:11 PM
No dog alerts were valid because too many of them were demonstrably unreliable.

Why could Eddie "find" a scent on cuddle-cat when it was hidden in a cupboard he could find no trace of all the time he could see it, sniff it and pick it up?

Why could Eddie find no trace of a scent on clothing in the villa, yet "find" scent on the same clothing after it was transported to the gym?

We know what scent he found in the Renault Scenic and it wasn't incriminating (Gerry's blood).

Why were the inspections of all other villas whistle-stop, yet long-drawn-out and protracted in apartment 5a

....


And so on.
What  does the "and so on" refer to?

Those questions you ask, are, well, just questions by a layperson, instead of proving the alerts were "demonstrably unreliable". Only Mr Grime knows for sure. Well, at least 100 times better than you I would imagine. Then again you would probably disagree seeing as you and others have accussed him of being a liar, cheat and a fraud.

PS It has been explained before. The "whstle stop" tours were just that "because" there was no interest shown by the cadaver dog. But in any case, you would expect a handler to concentrate on the last place a missing person was. That was just IMO

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2015, 02:25:41 PM
This is why the toy was hidden and a second test performed:

Training starts as a game played with puppies, starting with simple reward-based training (i.e. puppy is given a treat or allowed to play with a toy upon showing a simple skill such as retrieving the toy and bringing it back to the trainer) and expanding outward to "games" with more specific job skills (i.e. a well-loved toy is scented with the desired scent to find; when puppy finds the toy, he/she is allowed to play with the toy; later, scent and toy are separated so that puppy will search for the scent and is rewarded with the toy afterward).

That was probably why PJ Inspector Dias wondered about Eddie playing with his toy in the villa ... he certainly found it to be quite mystifying.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 04:09:36 PM
That was probably why Inspector Joao Carlos Eddie wondered about Eddie playing with his toy in the villa ... he certainly found it to be quite mystifying.

As mystyfying as the identity of Joao Carlos Eddie

 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 04:25:02 PM
That was probably why Inspector Joao Carlos wondered about Eddie playing with his toy in the villa ... he certainly found it to be quite mystifying.

That was PJ Inspector Dias:

From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'


To add to Inspector Dias' list of (pertinent) questions, what the hell was any police dog attending a crime scene doing picking stuff up in its mouth at all?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-11-VOLUMES.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2015, 04:30:21 PM
That was probably why Inspector Joao Carlos wondered about Eddie playing with his toy in the villa ... he certainly found it to be quite mystifying.

He also wanted to play with that tennis ball. Eddie loves them  @)(++(*

Apartment H5

We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 04:35:31 PM
That was PJ Inspector Dias:

From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'


To add to Inspector Dias' list of (pertinent) questions, what the hell was any police dog attending a crime scene doing picking stuff up in its mouth at all?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-11-VOLUMES.htm

Thats a queston for Mr Grime.Or ask the dog! Both are better barometres than one who doesnt like their work and isnt qualified
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 04:40:37 PM
Thats a queston for Mr Grime.Or ask the dog! Both are better barometres than one who doesnt like their work and isnt qualified

Mr Grime was launching a solo career.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2015, 04:42:09 PM
That was PJ Inspector Dias:

From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'


To add to Inspector Dias' list of (pertinent) questions, what the hell was any police dog attending a crime scene doing picking stuff up in its mouth at all?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-11-VOLUMES.htm

                Thanks Ferryman ... I'll amend my post to give credit where it is due.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 04:44:13 PM
Mr Grime was launching a solo career.

So?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2015, 04:44:30 PM
He also wanted to play with that tennis ball. Eddie loves them  @)(++(*

Apartment H5

We searched this apartment and the dog hasn't shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search.

Much along the lines of the interesting tit bit he fished out of a kitchen waste bin.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 04:57:18 PM
Thats a queston for Mr Grime.Or ask the dog! Both are better barometres than one who doesnt like their work and isnt qualified

Well, Mr Grime was asked whether the alert to cuddle cat could be considered a concrete indication of cadaver scent on cuddle-cat.

He replied that, on his instruction, the toy was retained by the judicial police for future forensic analysis.  He said he had no knowledge of forensic results.

The truth?

The toy was returned to the McCanns.

It was never forensically tested at all ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2015, 04:59:36 PM
Much along the lines of the interesting tit bit he fished out of a kitchen waste bin.

Eddie barks when he alerts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 05:04:52 PM
Much along the lines of the interesting tit bit he fished out of a kitchen waste bin.

Irrelevant as confirmed by Mr Grime, the "professional" rather than the "armchair" layman, or woman
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 05:05:53 PM
Irrelevant as confirmed by Mr Grime, the "professional" rather than the "armchair" layman, or woman

I would argue that it's a reasonably pertinent indicator of what reliance can be placed on Mr Grime's answers to questions ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 05:08:20 PM
Eddie barks when he alerts.

Or when he's miffed because his toy has been taken away from him ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 05:26:22 PM
I would argue that it's a reasonably pertinent indicator of what reliance can be placed on Mr Grime's answers to questions ...

No, the only pertinent indicator here of anything is your libellous posts...its almost as if you might have an aneurism if the dog did alert to a dead body, true?

Difference between me and you is that Im open minded, and say I might be wrong,you on the other hand wont have any talk of it, which, is strange, unless youre one of the Mccanns, or the abductor, both of  which Im sure is untrue, so how you can be so categoric is beynd me
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 05:37:21 PM
No, the only pertinent indicator here of anything is your libellous posts...its almost as if you might have an aneurism if the dog did alert to a dead body, true?

Difference between me and you is that Im open minded, and say I might be wrong,you on the other hand wont have any talk of it, which, is strange, unless youre one of the Mccanns, or the abductor, both of  which Im sure is untrue, so how you can be so categoric is beynd me

Grime did say that, at his request, the toy was retained by the judicial police for future forensic examination.

That wasn't true.

The toy was returned to the McCanns.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 05:40:55 PM
Grime did say that, at his request, the toy was retained by the judicial police for future forensic examination.

That wasn't true.

The toy was returned to the McCanns.
Yes, we know, you have bleated long enough about it, fact remains you didnt answer my original question, thng is you cant ignore questions then demand answers for your own
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 05:43:48 PM
I (first!) learnt of the existence of the McCann family at some point after May 3rd 2007.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 05:44:14 PM
Grime did say that, at his request, the toy was retained by the judicial police for future forensic examination.

That wasn't true.

The toy was returned to the McCanns.
"Apartment 5H. We searched this apartment and the dog hasn’t shown any interest in this particular apartment, apart from around the table, where there was a tennis ball which is how we reward the dog for finding things, as soon as we removed the tennis ball the interest was gone. And so it was a negative search."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 05:46:02 PM
I (first!) learnt of the existence of the McCann family at some point after May 3rd 2007.
never thought otherwise dear
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2015, 05:46:06 PM
Or when he's miffed because his toy has been taken away from him ....

No he was trained not to bark except for when he alerts. He doesn't bark when he's playing with tennis balls or toys.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 05:52:08 PM
No he was trained not to bark except for when he alerts. He doesn't bark when he's playing with tennis balls or toys.
it is true though PF that he didnt bark when he first encountered that toy....why not?
I watched the video and did hear a reaction but not a loud bark as when he alerted outside that sideboard
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 23, 2015, 05:52:36 PM
Posts containing insults will be deleted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 05:56:04 PM
Posts containing insults will be deleted.

not seen any here much  Eleanor, but must go save my posts just in case anythng pertinent is removed
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 05:57:07 PM
No he was trained not to bark except for when he alerts. He doesn't bark when he's playing with tennis balls or toys.

So why could he detect a scent when the toy was in the cupboard, but not when it was in front of his nose and he could sniff it, pick it up and play with it.

And why are not police dogs attending a crime scene trained never to pick up anything at all?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 23, 2015, 05:57:48 PM
We know that Eddie was correct in the Prout case, although there was no evidence found following his alert. He alerted in Jersey and no evidence was found there either. Does that mean he was wrong? No. it means no evidence was found.

He alerted in this case and no evidence was found. Does that mean he was wrong? No, it means no evidence was found.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 05:58:42 PM
never thought otherwise dear

Thank you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 23, 2015, 06:01:21 PM
We know that Eddie was correct in the Prout case, although there was no evidence found following his alert. He alerted in Jersey and no evidence was found there either. Does that mean he was wrong? No. it means no evidence was found.

He alerted in this case and no evidence was found. Does that mean he was wrong? No, it means no evidence was found.

In the Prout case, Eddie alerted in the family home, despite Prout strangling his wife in an outhouse several hundred yards away, and burying her.

Still, I give Eddie benefit of doubt that Prout might have cross-transferred death scent into the home from his clothes after burying his wife.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 06:06:36 PM
Thank you.

youre very welcome, I personally am sick to the back teeth of some stupid internet war about whether the mccanns are gulty or innocent, cos I dont give a stuff either way, its not my problem, its theirs, its the abuse of power  by many and the prevention of truths coming to the surface I have a problem with, but their beds and they sleep in them, justice enough most of the time, better than nothing, meanwhile I will question thngs even if dear old Alf here  castigates people for even daring
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 23, 2015, 06:08:54 PM
No he was trained not to bark except for when he alerts. He doesn't bark when he's playing with tennis balls or toys.

Eddie was trained to bark wherever he detected a certain odour.    AFAIK he was not trained to bark wherever he detected a certain odour - but not when that odour was from a soft toy. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 23, 2015, 06:49:34 PM
Eddie was trained to bark wherever he detected a certain odour.    AFAIK he was not trained to bark wherever he detected a certain odour - but not when that odour was from a soft toy.


Train a dog to react to a certain stimulus but then have exceptions so it will not react to the stimulus if it comes from some predefined sources.
How cool is that ?
How useful is that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 23, 2015, 06:59:24 PM
In the Prout case, Eddie alerted in the family home, despite Prout strangling his wife in an outhouse several hundred yards away, and burying her.

Still, I give Eddie benefit of doubt that Prout might have cross-transferred death scent into the home from his clothes after burying his wife.

do you have a cite for where he killed her ferryman? i haven't seen that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2015, 07:19:56 PM
it is true though PF that he didnt bark when he first encountered that toy....why not?
I watched the video and did hear a reaction but not a loud bark as when he alerted outside that sideboard

I read this explanation:

"Eddie was given a cuddly toy as a reward in training so reverted to puppy mode." 

Grime had to confirm if he marked it by removing it from the bin so he hid it for a second test.

"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."

http://www.scpr.org/news/2012/01/20/30870/indiana-bones-cadaver-dog-severed-limbs-hollywood/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 23, 2015, 07:31:53 PM
I read this explanation:

"Eddie was given a cuddly toy as a reward in training so reverted to puppy mode." 

Grime had to confirm if he marked it by removing it from the bin so he hid it for a second test.

Eddie had already taken cuddle cat from the bin before giving it a toss and walking off leaving it lying on the floor.

When next we see cuddle cat it is being extricated from a cupboard after Eddie had barked at a chair and some files on top.

We did a whole thread on this not too long ago.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 23, 2015, 07:38:54 PM
Eddie had already taken cuddle cat from the bin before giving it a toss and walking off leaving it lying on the floor.

When next we see cuddle cat it is being extricated from a cupboard after Eddie had barked at a chair and some files on top.

We did a whole thread on this not too long ago.

"When detector dogs work, they’re not looking for bombs, humans or body parts," Grand Pre says. "They’re looking for their toy. They’re not motivated by what we’re motivated by."

http://www.scpr.org/news/2012/01/20/30870/indiana-bones-cadaver-dog-severed-limbs-hollywood/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 07:49:22 PM
do you have a cite for where he killed her ferryman? i haven't seen that.

It doesnt matter as Eddie picked up on the death scent, thats all that matters IMO
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 07:54:22 PM
Is the tennis ball in the dog video?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 07:57:55 PM
An EVRD with reward
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/14/article-2324061-19C14060000005DC-38_634x539.jpg
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 10:08:20 PM
how lovely, and how does it forward any discussion!??
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 10:18:52 PM
how lovely, and how does it forward any discussion!??
It doesn't directly. It shows that this dog's treat is a small coloured hoop (IMO Eddie's was a tennis ball). BTW this dog had just that minute alerted in a missing child case. Investigators decided to ignore its intelligence because they had already searched the indicated area several times so no point in searching yet again.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 23, 2015, 11:44:34 PM
It doesn't directly. It shows that this dog's treat is a small coloured hoop (IMO Eddie's was a tennis ball). BTW this dog had just that minute alerted in a missing child case. Investigators decided to ignore its intelligence because they had already searched the indicated area several times so no point in searching yet again.

Oh so confirmation  humans are dumb not dogs,yup, will agree there
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 23, 2015, 11:53:27 PM
Oh so confirmation  humans are dumb not dogs,yup, will agree there
Yes that is correct, as I am sure the DCIs on that case learned.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 24, 2015, 07:26:30 AM
We know that Eddie was correct in the Prout case, although there was no evidence found following his alert. He alerted in Jersey and no evidence was found there either. Does that mean he was wrong? No. it means no evidence was found.

He alerted in this case and no evidence was found. Does that mean he was wrong? No, it means no evidence was found.

we cannot prove eddie is right or wrong when no evidence is found...therefore we cannot claim that eddie has never been wrong
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 08:28:07 AM
we cannot prove eddie is right or wrong when no evidence is found...therefore we cannot claim that eddie has never been wrong

Who is claiming that Eddie was never wrong? In this particular case Eddie was right twice; behind the sofa in G5A, and with the Renault car. His alerts were confirmed by Keela and by forensic tests. The dogs suggested something was there and they were correct.

Eddie's other alerts were unconfirmed, but because he was right twice my personal opinion is that those alerts are more likely to have been right than wrong. Of course that's just my opinion, which a lot of people disagree with, but it makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 24, 2015, 08:36:07 AM
Who is claiming that Eddie was never wrong? In this particular case Eddie was right twice; behind the sofa in G5A, and with the Renault car. His alerts were confirmed by Keela and by forensic tests. The dogs suggested something was there and they were correct.

Eddie's other alerts were unconfirmed, but because he was right twice my personal opinion is that those alerts are more likely to have been right than wrong. Of course that's just my opinion, which a lot of people disagree with, but it makes sense to me.

There are many claims that eddie has never been wrong...in amaral's book I believe ..repeated ad nauseam online. Eddie's alerts confirmed by keela would be blood...minute specks...not unusual in any house.

Again your personal opinion is of value only to you
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 24, 2015, 08:54:11 AM
There are many claims that eddie has never been wrong...in amaral's book I believe ..repeated ad nauseam online. Eddie's alerts confirmed by keela would be blood...minute specks...not unusual in any house.

Again your personal opinion is of value only to you

Martin Grime said he's never gave a false alert. He should know. Look at Morse record that was released. Mark Harrison recommended the best dogs to the PJ.

The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies. (TOTL)

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 08:59:41 AM
There are many claims that eddie has never been wrong...in amaral's book I believe ..repeated ad nauseam online. Eddie's alerts confirmed by keela would be blood...minute specks...not unusual in any house.

Again your personal opinion is of value only to you

Although blood specks are probably common in a house no alerts occurred in any other places. Perhaps there was something different about these ones? Until  can work out how a dogs sense of smell works we don't know the answer to that one. Animals definitely have skills that we lack. I have owned two dogs which knew when someone familiar to them was coming to the house at least five minutes before the person arrived in their vehicle. We assume they can hear vehicles much better than we can and identify the sound of individual engines which they associate with the driver.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 24, 2015, 09:23:03 AM
Martin Grime said he's never gave a false alert. He should know. Look at Morse record that was released. Mark Harrison recommended the best dogs to the PJ.

The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies. (TOTL)

What is your opinion on Keela PF - regarding the following?   She did not alert to the white curtains on her first 'search' but then did alert to them  on her second 'search. 

Was she wrong the first day and right on the second day? or
Was she right the first day and wrong on the second day?

Either she failed to detect an odour that was present on the first search - or she was correct and no odour was present  - which means she gave a false alert  on the 2nd search.   As forensic tests found no trace of blood - then IMO that is suggestive of a false alert.



Quote
On 2007/07/31 she's searched the apartment 5a. She didn't alert to the curtains behind the sofa.

On 2007/08/03 she's searched the apartment again.

19.20 The dog "marked" the lower part of the left white coloured curtain of the window behind the sofa.
 



Relevant part of the FSS report :

The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.

286A/2007-CRL 16 & 16B Two blue curtains and one white curtain.

286B/2007-CRL 1 One white section of a curtain.

These curtains were analysed for traces of blood, semen and saliva, none of which were detected.
 

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 11:05:15 AM
What is your opinion on Keela PF - regarding the following?   She did not alert to the white curtains on her first 'search' but then did alert to them  on her second 'search. 

Was she wrong the first day and right on the second day? or
Was she right the first day and wrong on the second day?

Either she failed to detect an odour that was present on the first search - or she was correct and no odour was present  - which means she gave a false alert  on the 2nd search.   As forensic tests found no trace of blood - then IMO that is suggestive of a false alert.



Quote
On 2007/07/31 she's searched the apartment 5a. She didn't alert to the curtains behind the sofa.

On 2007/08/03 she's searched the apartment again.

19.20 The dog "marked" the lower part of the left white coloured curtain of the window behind the sofa.
 



Relevant part of the FSS report :

The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.

286A/2007-CRL 16 & 16B Two blue curtains and one white curtain.

286B/2007-CRL 1 One white section of a curtain.

These curtains were analysed for traces of blood, semen and saliva, none of which were detected.
 


Apparently Keela could detect miniscule amounts of blood. That may be why she picked it up only on the second try, and it was too tiny for forensic traces to be found.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 24, 2015, 11:48:40 AM
What is your opinion on Keela PF - regarding the following?   She did not alert to the white curtains on her first 'search' but then did alert to them  on her second 'search. 

Was she wrong the first day and right on the second day? or
Was she right the first day and wrong on the second day?

Either she failed to detect an odour that was present on the first search - or she was correct and no odour was present  - which means she gave a false alert  on the 2nd search.   As forensic tests found no trace of blood - then IMO that is suggestive of a false alert.



Quote
On 2007/07/31 she's searched the apartment 5a. She didn't alert to the curtains behind the sofa.

On 2007/08/03 she's searched the apartment again.

19.20 The dog "marked" the lower part of the left white coloured curtain of the window behind the sofa.
 



Relevant part of the FSS report :

The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.

286A/2007-CRL 16 & 16B Two blue curtains and one white curtain.

286B/2007-CRL 1 One white section of a curtain.

These curtains were analysed for traces of blood, semen and saliva, none of which were detected.
 


Keela can detect washed blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 24, 2015, 11:51:34 AM
Martin Grime said he's never gave a false alert. He should know. Look at Morse record that was released. Mark Harrison recommended the best dogs to the PJ.

The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies. (TOTL)

Martin Grime doesn't know if eddie ever gave a false alert......you need to read his statement in context..
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 24, 2015, 12:44:25 PM
Martin Grime doesn't know if eddie ever gave a false alert......you need to read his statement in context..

FALSE ALERTS

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. In six years of operational deployment in over 200
criminal case searches the dog has never alerted to meat based and
specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
dog has never alerted to 'road kill', that is any other dead animal.

The dog will alert to the presence of cadaver scent whether it is at source or
some distance away from a deposition site. This enables the use of the dog to
identify the venting or exhaust channels of the scent through fissures in
bedrock or watercourses.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 02:04:39 PM
we cannot prove eddie is right or wrong when no evidence is found...therefore we cannot claim that eddie has never been wrong

Its not your position as a layman to make any claim
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 02:07:54 PM
Eddie's alerts confirmed by keela would be blood...minute specks...not unusual in any house.



Another example of a personal and wrong opinion passed off as fact. And of no value except to the poster.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 24, 2015, 02:15:56 PM
Who is claiming that Eddie was never wrong? In this particular case Eddie was right twice; behind the sofa in G5A, and with the Renault car. His alerts were confirmed by Keela and by forensic tests. The dogs suggested something was there and they were correct.

Eddie's other alerts were unconfirmed, but because he was right twice my personal opinion is that those alerts are more likely to have been right than wrong. Of course that's just my opinion, which a lot of people disagree with, but it makes sense to me.

I don't see where the idea of confirmation via forensic tests comes from. Inconclusive DNA was found. It's not even certain what the substance was that the forensic chap left behind... possibly blood (if Keela was accurate) or a drop of sweat with skins cells, innocently wiping a brow. Or a drop of blood from whoever laid the tiles.

Contrary to mythdom, Keela doesn't appear to have alerted at the wall itself, AFAIK. So how the DNA traces on the wall became "evidence" of blood spatter remains to be explained.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 02:19:21 PM
The" blood spatter" is a total 100 % myth as confirmed by the PJ files wherein its stated all wall material was tested for blood and none found
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 24, 2015, 02:41:07 PM
The" blood spatter" is a total 100 % myth as confirmed by the PJ files wherein its stated all wall material was tested for blood and none found

That's objective, Mercury.

Some in the extremist sceptic camp still tout this as fact for some reason. If they had truly read and integrated the files, they would know that that is simply not true...

There are no doubt deeply held false beliefs on both sides and, IMO, if a detail isn't correct, then it should be corrected.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 02:55:48 PM
I don't see where the idea of confirmation via forensic tests comes from. Inconclusive DNA was found. It's not even certain what the substance was that the forensic chap left behind... possibly blood (if Keela was accurate) or a drop of sweat with skins cells, innocently wiping a brow. Or a drop of blood from whoever laid the tiles.

Contrary to mythdom, Keela doesn't appear to have alerted at the wall itself, AFAIK. So how the DNA traces on the wall became "evidence" of blood spatter remains to be explained.

The dogs alert and the alerts have to be confirmed by forensics. Forensics confirmed the alerts, simply by finding DNA. The forensic people couldn't confirm that it was blood, but forensics aren't as good as dogs. Keela alerted only to blood, not sweat or skin cells.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 03:25:47 PM
the notion that keela may have alerted to sweat is too ridiculous to contemplate but some thnk its worth it, sheesh, wheres a hanmer when you need one?!

 *&*%£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 04:08:39 PM
the notion that keela may have alerted to sweat is too ridiculous to contemplate but some thnk its worth it, sheesh, wheres a hanmer when you need one?!

 *&*%£

It's beyond ridiculous when you consider what a fabulous job these dogs do. They're so useful when tragedies happen;

Staffordshire Police's search teams, which includes a specialist police cadaver dog, found two bodies this afternoon.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2814729/Search-missing-people-huge-blaze-Stafford-fireworks-factory.html#ixzz3gp0SDO3Z
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 04:29:10 PM
beyond ridiculous indeed! TBH Im finding it hard to fnd things that a cadaver dog doesnt alert to these days

weve had the whole gammut from chocolate cake and pizza to clipped toenails, plasters, flower fertiliser, hidden abortion remains,etc and now sweat.....like the police train dogs to alert to sweat, theyd be barking all the time

what people FORGET is the cadaver dog alerted in the last place a missing child was seen, but lets not let details and facts get in the way when defending two dodgy characters hey? makes you wonder what the motive is
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 04:50:59 PM
beyond ridiculous indeed! TBH Im finding it hard to fnd things that a cadaver dog doesnt alert to these days

weve had the whole gammut from chocolate cake and pizza to clipped toenails, plasters, flower fertiliser, hidden abortion remains,etc and now sweat.....like the police train dogs to alert to sweat, theyd be barking all the time

what people FORGET is the cadaver dog alerted in the last place a missing child was seen, but lets not let details and facts get in the way when defending two dodgy characters hey? makes you wonder what the motive is

It's obvious how useful dogs can be in all sorts of roles. The alerts must worry some people a lot if they go to such lengths to try to discredit them. I'm sure that if there were lots of cases where the police used dogs and they alerted wrongly there would either be a massive retraining effort or they would stop using them. They bring them into so many situations that it's obvious how much faith police forces and others have in these dogs being able to help.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 05:02:00 PM
exactly GU
why the feverous attacks on policing tools...they do protest too much and it speaks volumes  about so much, that nuch is patently so clear even to stevie wonder
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 24, 2015, 05:06:50 PM
It's obvious how useful dogs can be in all sorts of roles. The alerts must worry some people a lot if they go to such lengths to try to discredit them. I'm sure that if there were lots of cases where the police used dogs and they alerted wrongly there would either be a massive retraining effort or they would stop using them. They bring them into so many situations that it's obvious how much faith police forces and others have in these dogs being able to help.
Let's debunk one myth here at least.  No one is worried about the dog alerts.  There is nothing to worry about the dog alerts.  The dog alerts are history.  The dog alerts mean nothing now.  We're so over the dog alerts.  The dog alerts were so 2007.  Guess what?  It's 2015.  Let's all learn to get over the dog alerts and move on, for the love of God, Jesus and Allah.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 05:19:33 PM
Let's debunk one myth here at least.  No one is worried about the dog alerts.  There is nothing to worry about the dog alerts.  The dog alerts are history.  The dog alerts mean nothing now.  We're so over the dog alerts.  The dog alerts were so 2007.  Guess what?  It's 2015.  Let's all learn to get over the dog alerts and move on, for the love of God, Jesus and Allah.  Thank you.

LOL!
Too funny
You probablyarent aware youre batting for the other side, unconscious does curious things


 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 05:56:32 PM
Let's debunk one myth here at least.  No one is worried about the dog alerts.  There is nothing to worry about the dog alerts.  The dog alerts are history.  The dog alerts mean nothing now.  We're so over the dog alerts.  The dog alerts were so 2007.  Guess what?  It's 2015.  Let's all learn to get over the dog alerts and move on, for the love of God, Jesus and Allah.  Thank you.

No, Alfred. You may be 'so over the dog alerts', but others aren't. You can't decide what is or is not relevant, you're not in charge. If people wish to discuss Amaral and the dogs they can do so for lots more years yet.  8(>((
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 24, 2015, 06:00:30 PM
Gosh!
Bernoulli was so 18th century, we are so over the 18th century and it is now the 21st century we have moved on; and guess what about Bernoulli?
A fascinating form of argument however but it sounds like a Sloane Ranger type of thang.
 *&*%£ *&*%£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 06:02:12 PM
Gosh!
Bernoulli was so 18th century, we are so over the 18th century and it is now the 21st century we have moved on; and guess what about Bernoulli?
A fascinating form of argument however but it sounds like a Sloane Ranger type of thang.
 *&*%£ *&*%£

ROFL!!!

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 24, 2015, 06:23:41 PM
The dogs alert and the alerts have to be confirmed by forensics. Forensics confirmed the alerts, simply by finding DNA. The forensic people couldn't confirm that it was blood, but forensics aren't as good as dogs. Keela alerted only to blood, not sweat or skin cells.

Where is it stated that she alerted to spots on the wall? If they had been blood, surely it would have been noted that she had done so?

I have no problem with Keela, alhough there is always the possiblity that she could have been mistaken by confusing smells very similar to what she was trained for.

She was trained for human blood and alerted in several places. Apparently in such microscopic quantities that the traces couldn't be determined as such, let alone any conclusive DNA within it.

The living-room wall doesn't appear to have been one such location... so why do some people keep banging on about "blood spatters" on the the wall?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 24, 2015, 06:45:05 PM
Let's debunk one myth here at least.  No one is worried about the dog alerts.  There is nothing to worry about the dog alerts.  The dog alerts are history.  The dog alerts mean nothing now.  We're so over the dog alerts.  The dog alerts were so 2007.  Guess what?  It's 2015.  Let's all learn to get over the dog alerts and move on, for the love of God, Jesus and Allah.  Thank you.


 @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 24, 2015, 06:45:17 PM


I have no problem with Keela, alhough there is always the possiblity that she could have been mistaken by confusing smells very similar to what she was trained for.



Ridicuous assertion that Keela alerts to sweat or skin cells

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 24, 2015, 07:27:05 PM
It's obvious how useful dogs can be in all sorts of roles. The alerts must worry some people a lot if they go to such lengths to try to discredit them. I'm sure that if there were lots of cases where the police used dogs and they alerted wrongly there would either be a massive retraining effort or they would stop using them. They bring them into so many situations that it's obvious how much faith police forces and others have in these dogs being able to help.

I am not worried about the dog's alerts as eddie's so called cadaver alerts were not confirmed.
I don't go to any lengths to discredit the dog's but I go to great lengths to expose the myths re the dog's because I am interested in the truth. I accept everything that Grime said about the alerts ...they are not evidence of a cadaver being in 5A and certainly amaral was woefully off the mark...a complete duffer...when he claimed he could prove Maddie died in 5A based on the dog's alerts
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 24, 2015, 07:27:09 PM
No, Alfred. You may be 'so over the dog alerts', but others aren't. You can't decide what is or is not relevant, you're not in charge. If people wish to discuss Amaral and the dogs they can do so for lots more years yet.  8(>((
You claimed some of us (meaning McCann supporters I suppose) were ever so worried about the dog alerts.  I don't think discussing them is the same as being worried about them.  You may choose to infer that we're in a permanent angst-ridden fret about the dog alerts if it makes you happy, but I think you'll find you are wrong.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 24, 2015, 07:35:23 PM
Its not your position as a layman to make any claim

tell me what proof there is that eddie has never given a false alert
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 24, 2015, 07:37:39 PM
It's beyond ridiculous when you consider what a fabulous job these dogs do. They're so useful when tragedies happen;

Staffordshire Police's search teams, which includes a specialist police cadaver dog, found two bodies this afternoon.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2814729/Search-missing-people-huge-blaze-Stafford-fireworks-factory.html#ixzz3gp0SDO3Z
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

As I have said before...the dogs are only of any use if they find evidence...if they do not find evidence...they are of no use... I would class 2 bodies as evidence
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 07:48:22 PM
Where is it stated that she alerted to spots on the wall? If they had been blood, surely it would have been noted that she had done so?

I have no problem with Keela, alhough there is always the possiblity that she could have been mistaken by confusing smells very similar to what she was trained for.

She was trained for human blood and alerted in several places. Apparently in such microscopic quantities that the traces couldn't be determined as such, let alone any conclusive DNA within it.

The living-room wall doesn't appear to have been one such location... so why do some people keep banging on about "blood spatters" on the the wall?

who's banging on about the walls?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 24, 2015, 07:53:24 PM
I am not worried about the dog's alerts as eddie's so called cadaver alerts were not confirmed.
I don't go to any lengths to discredit the dog's but I go to great lengths to expose the myths re the dog's because I am interested in the truth. I accept everything that Grime said about the alerts ...they are not evidence of a cadaver being in 5A and certainly amaral was woefully off the mark...a complete duffer...when he claimed he could prove Maddie died in 5A based on the dog's alerts

Ignorance is bliss. SY are searching for a body because of those pesky dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 07:55:06 PM
As I have said before...the dogs are only of any use if they find evidence...if they do not find evidence...they are of no use... I would class 2 bodies as evidence

what if someone had nipped in and taken the bodies away? The dog would still have alerted and it would have been right. That's why you can't write dog alerts off and forget all about them.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 24, 2015, 07:56:37 PM
I am not worried about the dog's alerts as eddie's so called cadaver alerts were not confirmed.
I don't go to any lengths to discredit the dog's but I go to great lengths to expose the myths re the dog's because I am interested in the truth. I accept everything that Grime said about the alerts ...they are not evidence of a cadaver being in 5A and certainly amaral was woefully off the mark...a complete duffer...when he claimed he could prove Maddie died in 5A based on the dog's alerts

There is nothing else in this case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 24, 2015, 08:05:17 PM
There is nothing else in this case.

Then there's nothing to incriminate the  mccanns .... Must be why they are not suspects
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 08:14:50 PM
You claimed some of us (meaning McCann supporters I suppose) were ever so worried about the dog alerts.  I don't think discussing them is the same as being worried about them.  You may choose to infer that we're in a permanent angst-ridden fret about the dog alerts if it makes you happy, but I think you'll find you are wrong.

Discussion is fine Alfred. I was referring to ridiculous assertions that the dogs alerted to such things as sweat. That to me is scraping the ground under the barrel.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 24, 2015, 08:23:44 PM
Then there's nothing to incriminate the  mccanns .... Must be why they are not suspects

With the crime still unknown.

Mmm.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 24, 2015, 09:08:09 PM
Discussion is fine Alfred. I was referring to ridiculous assertions that the dogs alerted to such things as sweat. That to me is scraping the ground under the barrel.
Do you know for certain what caused Eddie and Keela to alert?  Would you stake your life on it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 24, 2015, 09:13:37 PM
Do you know for certain what caused Eddie and Keela to alert?  Would you stake your life on it?
Turn that one on it's head Alf for a reality check  *&*%£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 24, 2015, 09:18:32 PM
Do you know for certain what caused Eddie and Keela to alert?  Would you stake your life on it?

Why don't you take gerry mccanns advice to Sandra ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 24, 2015, 10:00:51 PM
Discussion is fine Alfred. I was referring to ridiculous assertions that the dogs alerted to such things as sweat. That to me is scraping the ground under the barrel.
Sweat, urine, saliva, tears, nail clippings .... a whole list of things that the dogs actually alert to.

It has all been throughly discussed on here before.


Cant tell you where, but I suggest that you read back, Gunit.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 24, 2015, 10:04:05 PM
Turn that one on it's head Alf for a reality check  *&*%£
I don't need a reality check.  I can't say for certain what the dogs alerted to.   No one can.  That's reality.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 24, 2015, 10:05:32 PM
I don't need a reality check.  I can't say for certain what the dogs alerted to.   No one can.  That's reality.
So you would bet your life on it? (to quote you)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 24, 2015, 10:07:34 PM
So you would bet your life on it? (to quote you)
Yes.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 24, 2015, 10:07:50 PM
Sweat, urine, saliva, tears, nail clippings .... a whole list of things that the dogs actually alert to.

It has all been throughly discussed on here before.


Cant tell you where, but I suggest that you read back, Gunit.

Eddie and Keela don't alert to any of that ONLY if it's mixed with BLOOD.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 10:09:15 PM
Sweat, urine, saliva, tears, nail clippings .... a whole list of things that the dogs actually alert to.

It has all been throughly discussed on here before.


Cant tell you where, but I suggest that you read back, Gunit.

Sorry, Sadie, I don't buy it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 24, 2015, 10:18:41 PM
Sorry, Sadie, I don't buy it.
Maybe someone will tell you where to look.  It has been thoroughly discussed on here with documentation.  IIRC and I think I do. 


Ferryman is an expert.  Maybe he will point you in the right direction.  He is good natured.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 24, 2015, 10:30:17 PM
Maybe someone will tell you where to look.  It has been thoroughly discussed on here with documentation.  IIRC and I think I do. 


Ferryman is an expert.  Maybe he will point you in the right direction.  He is good natured.

I don't want to be knee-deep in discussions about what it is dogs alert to, thank you. Whatever dead bodies smell like, that's what cadaver dogs find. Whatever blood smells like, that's what blood hounds find. Scientists cannot replicate the smell of dead bodies because they don't know what the scent is made up of, so how can ferryman know?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 24, 2015, 10:32:32 PM
Maybe someone will tell you where to look.  It has been thoroughly discussed on here with documentation.  IIRC and I think I do. 


Ferryman is an expert.  Maybe he will point you in the right direction.  He is good natured.

Ferryman is an expert love it  @)(++(*

This is the expert on his dogs Sadie

Given the nature of the training, the dog WILL NOT alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 24, 2015, 11:16:01 PM
Ferryman is an expert love it  @)(++(*

This is the expert on his dogs Sadie

Given the nature of the training, the dog WILL NOT alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
Ferryman is an expert.  Little doubt about that.

Perhaps I misremembered?   


Strange, I am almost certain that the dogs alerted to anything from human origins.


I wonder why the ROGATORY is called a RIGATORY now?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm


You don't suppose that a substitute page with a subtly changed title has been put out to hide the original page, do you?



PS.  The mcannpjfiles [Martin Grime] webpage that I have subtly altere will no longer open, because of my altering the colour and emboldening part.  If you wish to open this, maybe phoney, webpage use the address that Pfinder gave you.



Several times when I was on pfa2 forum, someone subtly changed a webpage address.  Even a lone full stop alters it.  And a new version was sustituted giving the opposite "story" to the original.
Chicanory and deceit.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 02:01:32 AM
Sweat, urine, saliva, tears, nail clippings .... a whole list of things that the dogs actually alert to.

It has all been throughly discussed on here before.


Cant tell you where, but I suggest that you read back, Gunit.
Even if true, did the  question never cross your mind of why no one elses sweat,urine,saliva,tears and nail clippings! (hilarious as it sounds) were found ? in several other residences searched!?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 02:02:55 AM
Maybe someone will tell you where to look.  It has been thoroughly discussed on here with documentation.  IIRC and I think I do. 


Ferryman is an expert. 

In what?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 02:05:54 AM
Ferryman is an expert.  Little doubt about that.

Perhaps I misremembered?   


Strange, I am almost certain that the dogs alerted to anything from human origins.


I wonder why the ROGATORY is called a RIGATORY now?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm


You don't suppose that a substitute page with a subtly changed title has been put out to hide the original page, do you?



PS.  The mcannpjfiles [Martin Grime] webpage will no longer open because of my altering the colour and emboldening part.  If you wish to open this, maybe phoney, webpage use the address that Pfinder gave you.



Several times when I was on pfa2 forum, someone subtly changed a webpage address.  Even a lone full stop alters it.  And a new version was sustituted giving the opposite "story" to the original.
Chicanory and deceit.

So we have a humungous brain leap between an innocent spelling error (which changes nothing at all )and chicanory....off to google "chicanory", but  meanwhile thank you for a post midnight chuckle Sades

oh here we go for anyone interested and thought it meant a herb or something similar

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chicanery

 @)(++(*


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 02:23:39 AM
That's objective, Mercury.

Some in the extremist sceptic camp still tout this as fact for some reason. If they had truly read and integrated the files, they would know that that is simply not true...

There are no doubt deeply held false beliefs on both sides and, IMO, if a detail isn't correct, then it should be corrected.
Sorry Carana, missed this post. What can I say? Anyone who repeats a real myth and knowingly needs a slap.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 02:27:11 AM
tell me what proof there is that eddie has never given a false alert

Celestial teapot?
Your question should really be why, if any false alert happened, did it have to be in flat 5A of all places. Everyone is perplexed, why did Eddie alert in the parents' bedroom. Any (sensible) idea?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 25, 2015, 07:40:55 AM
Keela can detect washed blood.


Yes I know PF, but that doesn't change the fact that Keela did not alert to the white curtain on the first search but then did alert to it on the second one  - or explain why this apparent  'fail' occurred on day one.  IMO it can only be due to the amount of time spent searching.  What else can it be?

IMO had more time been spent searching non-McCann related places - (or even the same amount of time that had been spent on everything that was McCann related), then more alerts would have been made.

Remembering that Keela could detect the minutest odour from blood deposited 50 years (or more) ago. - then I find it hard to believe that not even a tiny trace of blood had ever been deposited in the 9 other cars, since they were manufactured, or in any of the other apartments over decades - during which time probably thousands of people had 'lived' in them.    That's a bridge too far for me.




Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 07:50:50 AM
Ferryman is an expert.  Little doubt about that.

Perhaps I misremembered?   


Strange, I am almost certain that the dogs alerted to anything from human origins.


I wonder why the ROGATORY is called a RIGATORY now?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm


You don't suppose that a substitute page with a subtly changed title has been put out to hide the original page, do you?



PS.  The mcannpjfiles [Martin Grime] webpage will no longer open because of my altering the colour and emboldening part.  If you wish to open this, maybe phoney, webpage use the address that Pfinder gave you.



Several times when I was on pfa2 forum, someone subtly changed a webpage address.  Even a lone full stop alters it.  And a new version was sustituted giving the opposite "story" to the original.
Chicanory and deceit.

ferryman is a googler.  8**8:/:

As to your conspiracy theories.....................
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 07:54:05 AM

Yes I know PF, but that doesn't change the fact that Keela did not alert to the white curtain on the first search but then did alert to it on the second one  - or explain why this apparent  'fail' occurred on day one.  IMO it can only be due to the amount of time spent searching.  What else can it be?

IMO had more time been spent searching non-McCann related places - (or even the same amount of time that had been spent on everything that was McCann related), then more alerts would have been made.

Remembering that Keela could detect the minutest odour from blood deposited 50 years (or more) ago. - then I find it hard to believe that not even a tiny trace of blood had ever been deposited in the 9 other cars, since they were manufactured, or in any of the other apartments over decades - during which time probably thousands of people had 'lived' in them.    That's a bridge too far for me.
keela wasnt asked /tasked to find blood if eddie didnt alert
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on July 25, 2015, 07:59:01 AM
Sweat, urine, saliva, tears, nail clippings .... a whole list of things that the dogs actually alert to.

It has all been throughly discussed on here before.


Cant tell you where, but I suggest that you read back, Gunit.

Driving myths Sadie?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 25, 2015, 08:16:18 AM
keela wasnt asked /tasked to find blood if eddie didnt alert

Yes I know mercury.  But Eddie was just as brilliant as Keela was in detecting blood.  IIRC some of the bones found in Jersey were hundreds of years old.  But they must have had traces of blood on them if Eddie alerted to them.

The only difference between the two dogs is that Eddie barked in the vicinity of the odour and Keela froze at the precise spot,

Don't you find it strange that no alerts occurred in any of the other cars or the other apartments?  The car video in particular clearly shows that Eddie was directed to spend far more time on the McCanns vehicle than the others -  before there was an alert.       And IMO that's the reason why he did not alert anywhere else.   

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 08:48:13 AM
Celestial teapot?
Your question should really be why, if any false alert happened, did it have to be in flat 5A of all places. Everyone is perplexed, why did Eddie alert in the parents' bedroom. Any (sensible) idea?

some have claimed eddie has never been wrong....what did eddie alert to...I accept implicitly what Grime says...it's a shame you..amaral and others do not
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 25, 2015, 08:51:31 AM

Yes I know PF, but that doesn't change the fact that Keela did not alert to the white curtain on the first search but then did alert to it on the second one  - or explain why this apparent  'fail' occurred on day one.  IMO it can only be due to the amount of time spent searching.  What else can it be?

IMO had more time been spent searching non-McCann related places - (or even the same amount of time that had been spent on everything that was McCann related), then more alerts would have been made.

Remembering that Keela could detect the minutest odour from blood deposited 50 years (or more) ago. - then I find it hard to believe that not even a tiny trace of blood had ever been deposited in the 9 other cars, since they were manufactured, or in any of the other apartments over decades - during which time probably thousands of people had 'lived' in them.    That's a bridge too far for me.

Washed blood will be hard to detect unless Keela is sniffing and investigating the exact spot. Keela sniffs up close to detect minute samples on murder weapons etc.

"'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement." (MG)

Eddie goes in first to detect the scent he has been trained to find. Eddie didn't alert to the other cars so I wonder what that strong scent was coming from the open boot witness car?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 09:01:36 AM
Washed blood will be hard to detect unless Keela is sniffing and investigating the exact spot. Keela sniffs up close to detect minute samples on murder weapons etc.

"'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement." (MG)

Eddie goes in first to detect the scent he has been trained to find. Eddie didn't alert to the other cars so I wonder what that strong scent was coming from the open boot witness car?

first...who said it was a strong scent...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 25, 2015, 09:08:07 AM
Washed blood will be hard to detect unless Keela is sniffing and investigating the exact spot. Keela sniffs up close to detect minute samples on murder weapons etc.

"'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement." (MG)

Eddie goes in first to detect the scent has been trained to find. Eddie didn't alert to the other cars so I wonder what that strong scent was coming from the open boot witness car?

If it was that strong then why didn't Eddie alert to the boot?    He alerted to the keyfob in the driver's door compartment from outside the car.   Surely  it could only be that the strong smell was not something he was trained to alert to.

I wonder how Martin Grime would know that human blood so minute that it is invisible to the naked eye and can't be recovered by forensics was actually there in the first place?  I don't see how he could test his dogs to prove they were capable of doing that.        For training purposes -   how could he put down a trace that was so minute it was invisible and could not be recovered forensically?   Just curious.

 



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 09:09:43 AM
If it was that strong then why didn't Eddie alert to the boot?    He alerted to the keyfob in the driver's door compartment from outside the car.   Surely  it could only be that the strong smell was not something he was trained to alert to.

I wonder how Martin Grime would know that human blood so minute that it is invisible to the naked eye and can't be recovered by forensics was actually there in the first place?  I don't see how he could test his dogs to prove they were capable of doing that.        For training purposes -   how could he put down a trace that was so minute it was invisible and could not be recovered forensically?   Just curious.



 

Grime does not know and has never claimed the dogs are 100% reliable...it's just the doubters getting things wrong again
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 25, 2015, 09:33:08 AM
Ferryman is an expert.  Little doubt about that.

Perhaps I misremembered?   


Strange, I am almost certain that the dogs alerted to anything from human origins.


I wonder why the ROGATORY is called a RIGATORY now?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm


You don't suppose that a substitute page with a subtly changed title has been put out to hide the original page, do you?



PS.  The mcannpjfiles [Martin Grime] webpage will no longer open because of my altering the colour and emboldening part.  If you wish to open this, maybe phoney, webpage use the address that Pfinder gave you.



Several times when I was on pfa2 forum, someone subtly changed a webpage address.  Even a lone full stop alters it.  And a new version was sustituted giving the opposite "story" to the original.
Chicanory and deceit.


That is an interesting one, Sadie.


I have followed the link to Martin Grime's R ... I ... GATORY statement and got right there.

When I have substituted the O with an I on other rogatory statements ... I get a 404 message telling me

"To find the page you requested Click onto link below.

It will help you find the page that you may be looking for.

SITE MAP"

As you have said ... mistype an address and you will get nowhere ... so I guess this must be the one which is the exception that proves the rule.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 09:41:24 AM
first...who said it was a strong scent...

and what if  a body was alerted to...

Where does that leave the mccanns ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 09:43:47 AM
and what if  a body was alerted to...

Where does that leave the mccanns ?

your post is total speculation without evidence...plainly ridiculous and typical of the doubters such as yourself
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 09:47:44 AM
your post is total speculation without evidence...plainly ridiculous and typical of the doubters such as yourself

Rubbish.

Your riposte is par for the course, because you know damp well where the case would lie if it was proved the dogs alerted correctly.

As it stands, since the forensic results were inconclusive, it is a logical possibility they did.

and if they didn't alert to a body, what did they alert to ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 09:51:49 AM
Rubbish.

Your riposte is par for the course, because you know damp well where the case would lie if it was proved the dogs alerted correctly.

As it stands, since the forensic results were inconclusive, it is a logical possibility they did.

and if they didn't alert to a body, what did they alert to ?


there certainly would be a case if it was proved the dogs alerted correctly...Southampton would have won the premiership if they had won more games..I could have won the tour de france if I had been better at cycling...

if only...but none of these things happened einstein
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 10:09:24 AM

there certainly would be a case if it was proved the dogs alerted correctly...Southampton would have won the premiership if they had won more games..I could have won the tour de france if I had been better at cycling...

if only...but none of these things happened einstein

It was inconclusive, so there is a distinct possibility they did.

Now if they did, where does it leave the mccanns ?

You also have omitted that Redwood included the possibility Madeleine never left the flat alive.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 10:21:41 AM
It was inconclusive, so there is a distinct possibility they did.

Now if they did, where does it leave the mccanns ?

You also have omitted that Redwood included the possibility Madeleine never left the flat alive.

if there is proof that a body had been in that car...if there was proof that a body had been in the apartment...

Then I would be calling for the arrest of the McCanns......the fact is there is no evidence of either
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 25, 2015, 10:24:43 AM

That is an interesting one, Sadie.


I have followed the link to Martin Grime's R ... I ... GATORY statement and got right there.

When I have substituted the O with an I on other rogatory statements ... I get a 404 message telling me

"To find the page you requested Click onto link below.

It will help you find the page that you may be looking for.

SITE MAP"

As you have said ... mistype an address and you will get nowhere ... so I guess this must be the one which is the exception that proves the rule.

Thanks for looking, Brietta.


When on pfa2 it happened several times that the addresses were mistyped deliberately.

I put up Youtube videos that worked ... and when I came back to play them again they would not open.

Same with webpages.   Someone was hiding things by altering the address.  Just one full stop did it.

or,

Sometimes the Youtube address had the underlining partially removed.  Then it would not open.


Cath, pointed out that the correct address, which I had posted, had had a full stop added ... and that was why they didn't work.  It was deliberate.
It kept happening.


Sheer deceit and fraudulence.  Chicanory.




Also in response to one of my posts, a freind had posted an image of Joana Cipriana.
When I went back days later, that had become an image of a very busty prostituty type of woman in a suggestive sort of top.  My friend was furious and upset.  I was too.




I will be totally brutal and honest. 
With this name and the importance of Gerry being blamed to some, I am actually wondering if this RIGATORY statement is fraudulent.  I am wondering if the true ROGATORY statement has somehow been deleted or hidden/locked.



I also wonder is Processos 807-808 also fraudulent?   It changes [IIRC] 5 items of information, giving certain incorrect info. and over-ruling the intial Processos 809, which was written on site in Porto.  Where it all happened.

To my mind, Processos 807-808 actually takes the readers / investigators eye away from what actually happened.  Is it a Red Herring?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 25, 2015, 10:24:54 AM
It was inconclusive, so there is a distinct possibility they did.

Now if they did, where does it leave the mccanns ?

You also have omitted that Redwood included the possibility Madeleine never left the flat alive.

What exactly was "inconclusive" about the area near the wardrobe where Eddie barked? 

No forensic samples from that area were retrieved and sent off to the lab for investigation.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 10:26:06 AM
What exactly was "inconclusive" about the area near the wardrobe where Eddie barked? 

No forensic samples from that area were retrieved and sent off to the lab for investigation.

I was talking about the actual forensic results of samples taken.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 25, 2015, 10:29:15 AM
If it was that strong then why didn't Eddie alert to the boot?    He alerted to the keyfob in the driver's door compartment from outside the car.   Surely  it could only be that the strong smell was not something he was trained to alert to.

I wonder how Martin Grime would know that human blood so minute that it is invisible to the naked eye and can't be recovered by forensics was actually there in the first place?  I don't see how he could test his dogs to prove they were capable of doing that.        For training purposes -   how could he put down a trace that was so minute it was invisible and could not be recovered forensically?   Just curious.



I wondered about that for ages. I can only think of one possibility: you take a piece of cloth and draw a circle with a permanent ink marker. Drop some blood in the circle, even better on the other side of the cloth. Wait for it to dry. Machine wash it. Then observe if and where the dog alerts.

The main difference seems to be that Keela needs a physical trace (however small), whereas Eddie can alert to residual scent. He gave the same alert whenever he detected what he was trained to find, and that included blood.

I find it simplistic and misleading to assume that if Keela didn't react, then Eddie was necessarily reacting to the scent of a dead body that had been removed. He could equally have been reacting to a bloodied sock or bandage that had been lying around for a while in there, but which was no longer present at the time of the inspection.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 10:41:25 AM
We certainly have one fact. It seem  the PJ...SY and amarals lawyer accept that Maddie may still be alive...so that proves beyond any doubt that all three do not accept that the alerts were definitely to Maddie's body.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 10:42:59 AM
We certainly have one fact. It seem  the PJ...SY and amarals lawyer accept that Maddie may still be alive...so that proves beyond any doubt that all three do not accept that the alerts were definitely to Maddie's body.

So you believe in fairy stories as well dave ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 10:49:26 AM
So you believe in fairy stories as well dave ?
I'm stating a fact...SYand the PJ accept that Maddie may still be alive..perhaps you didn't read the post properly
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 11:05:09 AM
I'm stating a fact...SYand the PJ accept that Maddie may still be alive..perhaps you didn't read the post properly

I know what they stated.

I asked you if you believe in fairy stories, such as Madeleine returning after over 8 years of no trace of her whatsoever ?

Perhaps you should think outside the mccann box on this one.

Or do you support the mccanns statement, that there is no evidence that Madeleine has come to any harm ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:10:44 AM
I know what they stated.

I asked you if you believe in fairy stories, such as Madeleine returning after over 8 years of no trace of her whatsoever ?

Perhaps you should think outside the mccann box on this one.

Or do you support the mccanns statement, that there is no evidence that Madeleine has come to any harm ?

maddie may still be alive..fact...that is what I believe
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 25, 2015, 11:12:28 AM
I was talking about the actual forensic results of samples taken.

There is nothing at all in "the actual forensic results of samples taken" to support your belief that Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A ... for the simple reason that there were no forensic results worth talking about which came from the apartment.

Contrary to what has become popular belief there was no proof of a blood bath having occurred ... and more importantly there was absolutely no proof of death or many "inconclusive" results pointing in that direction.

All speculation and spin.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 11:18:08 AM
There is nothing at all in "the actual forensic results of samples taken" to support your belief that Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A ... for the simple reason that there were no forensic results worth talking about which came from the apartment.

Contrary to what has become popular belief there was no proof of a blood bath having occurred ... and more importantly there was absolutely no proof of death or many "inconclusive" results pointing in that direction.

All speculation and spin.
  • Low level incomplete DNA results, which in certain circumstances showed a contribution of DNA from more than one person were obtained from biological material on the following swabs: 286A/2007 CRL 14a, 14b, 15a; the swab from the hem of the curtain 286A/2007 CRL 16 curtain 2; the swabs from the tile pieces 286/2007 CRL 2 areas 1 and 2 and 3 area 1. In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that anyone from the McCann family contributed their DNA to them results.
  • The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.
  • An incomplete, low-level DNA result was obtained through LCN from cellular material in an area of floor-tile 2. In my opinion, there is not any positive proof that supports the theory of any of the members of the McCann family have contributed DNA to this result.
  • 286/2007-CRL (21) Fragments of bush/shrubbery
    Insofar as it relates to this sample, the examination performed was aimed at the detection of the possible presence of blood, no trace thereof having been found. Particles from the superficial surface layer were recovered and preserved in a way similar to that of hairs and fibres. In my opinion, the capillary roots were not good quality as they were not adequate to perform DNA profile tests.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html


You do know what inconclusive means ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:39:16 AM
The best crime scene dog's in the world found no evidence that Maddie died in 5A...that's another fact
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 25, 2015, 11:47:18 AM

You do know what inconclusive means ?

Quite obviously I do ... unfortunately you are unable to comprehend "no evidence" which in a nutshell is what Eddie's much lauded alerts consist of.

Think about it rationally just for a second ... if your confidence in these alerts is so unshakeable ... why didn't the Final Report recommend any arrests based on them?

Was it because unlike Mr Amaral at the time and countless others taking his lead and following like sheep ... they had actually read and they had understood the forensic report?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 11:51:30 AM
Yes I know mercury.  But Eddie was just as brilliant as Keela was in detecting blood.  IIRC some of the bones found in Jersey were hundreds of years old.  But they must have had traces of blood on them if Eddie alerted to them.

The only difference between the two dogs is that Eddie barked in the vicinity of the odour and Keela froze at the precise spot,

Don't you find it strange that no alerts occurred in any of the other cars or the other apartments?  The car video in particular clearly shows that Eddie was directed to spend far more time on the McCanns vehicle than the others -  before there was an alert.       And IMO that's the reason why he did not alert anywhere else.   
Err Benice, no, wrong on both accounts there, a) Eddie did not alert only where there was blood and b) there is a difference to what he and Keela alerted to, where did you  get such an idea? that the only difference between a cadaver dog and a blood fnding dog is only in the manner in whch they alert?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 11:57:02 AM
The best crime scene dog's in the world found no evidence that Maddie died in 5A...that's another fact
The best crime scene dogs in the world such as Eddie (bless his little paws, now deceased) alert to the remnant scent of a body, when no body is there, thats all they can do as trained to do so, they cant wag and point  their finger to any judge!

Thats the fact.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 12:03:49 PM
Quite obviously I do ... unfortunately you are unable to comprehend "no evidence" which in a nutshell is what Eddie's much lauded alerts consist of.

Think about it rationally just for a second ... if your confidence in these alerts is so unshakeable ... why didn't the Final Report recommend any arrests based on them?

Was it because unlike Mr Amaral at the time and countless others taking his lead and following like sheep ... they had actually read and they had understood the forensic report?

It is circumstantial evidence.

The forensic reported neither confirmed or dismissed the possibility of a body.

Do you comprehend that ?

and if a body is at some point  found, then it is a whole different ball game.

BTW, your continued attention to this topic reveals why you and other mccann supporters are so clearly worried by the dogs.

Likewise, gm in the trial, tried that on with the judges.

It didn't wash there either.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 12:17:25 PM
The best crime scene dogs in the world such as Eddie (bless his little paws, now deceased) alert to the remnant scent of a body, when no body is there, thats all they can do as trained to do so, they cant wag and point  their finger to any judge!

Thats the fact.

you show how little you understand about the dogs...eddie is an EVRA dog...V stands for victim...eddie is trained to find bodies or body parts...physical evidence..

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2015, 12:22:57 PM

TOPIC.  PLEASE.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 12:24:01 PM
you show how little you understand about the dogs...eddie is an EVRA dog...V stands for victim...eddie is trained to find bodies or body parts...physical evidence..

I understand these dogs totally, but I have to ask, is it possble for you to ever post without attacking another member in any way shape or form? No, is the answer I guess.

PS its EVRD not EVRA

Oh, also dont say that to Ferryman, he would  say there is nosuch thng as an EVRD cos E stands for enhanced, as in Eddie recieved enhanced training, ie on real dead humans,  in the USA, whch Ferryman says is a lie...

BTW Eddie reacts to REMNANT dead body scent as well as physical in situ!

 &%+((£

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 12:51:55 PM
I understand these dogs totally, but I have to ask, is it possble for you to ever post without attacking another member in any way shape or form? No, is the answer I guess.

PS its EVRD not EVRA

Oh, also dont say that to Ferryman, he would  say there is nosuch thng as an EVRD cos E stands for enhanced, as in Eddie recieved enhanced training, ie on real dead humans,  in the USA, whch Ferryman says is a lie...

BTW Eddie reacts to REMNANT dead body scent as well as physical in situ!

 &%+((£

The role of the dogs is to secure evidence...

quote by grime.....The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and locate human remains or human blood

eddie alerts to residual scent....this may be due to contamination of the site and not from the presence of abody at the site.....grime did not confirm the alerts were to cadaverine
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 12:56:14 PM
Yes Davel, the problem being "contamination" in the last place a missing child was in and none elsewhere, serious doubts whichever way you want to slice it

See you later, dont like seeing my username all along the right hand side of the board, feels like hogging, but just quiet, tara
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 01:23:16 PM
Yes Davel, the problem being "contamination" in the last place a missing child was in and none elsewhere, serious doubts whichever way you want to slice it

See you later, dont like seeing my username all along the right hand side of the board, feels like hogging, but just quiet, tara

was also the last place the police were...either accidental...they were pretty poor with their forensic techniques...or even deliberate to put pressure on the mccanns to force a confession
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 25, 2015, 03:05:59 PM

You do know what inconclusive means ?

Unless you can show me otherwise, it means that there were some alleles present which matched hers and therefore the results can't formally exclude her.

It also means that the results wouldn't exclude you or me either (most of us will share a similar amount of alleles with her in those found). And she stayed there.

However, in the area in which a few alleles were found in the living room area, there is nothing to suggest that anything untoward occurred in that area.

There never was any evidence of a blood spatter - just various spots of DNA belonging to various unidentifiable people, and quite possibly over many years.

The only likely DNA result belonged to a cop. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2015, 03:22:19 PM

Some long forgotten Tiler could well have cut himself.  And so it seems did the person who raised the tiles.

Eddie was fine, he just wasn't a proper Cadaver Dog, so no one, not even Martin Grime knew what he was alerting to.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 25, 2015, 03:25:26 PM
It is circumstantial evidence.

The forensic reported neither confirmed or dismissed the possibility of a body.

Do you comprehend that ?

and if a body is at some point  found, then it is a whole different ball game.

BTW, your continued attention to this topic reveals why you and other mccann supporters are so clearly worried by the dogs.

Likewise, gm in the trial, tried that on with the judges.

It didn't wash there either.

That forensic report of 5A showed nothing at all of significance. It wouldn't have confirmed or excluded that you, me or even Madeleine had even ever set foot in that apartment, let alone died there.

I don't exclude that she may have died in that flat - it's a possibility; my point is just that the forensic report didn't show anything to indicate that that had happened.

The forensic report isn't that difficult to understand. I really don't understand why some people keep perpetuating the myth of non-existent blood spatters or other body fluids of a sinister nature that have no basis in fact.

It's almost as if some people are hoping that this was is the case for some unfathomable reason.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 04:03:36 PM
That forensic report of 5A showed nothing at all of significance. It wouldn't have confirmed or excluded that you, me or even Madeleine had even ever set foot in that apartment, let alone died there.

I don't exclude that she may have died in that flat - it's a possibility; my point is just that the forensic report didn't show anything to indicate that that had happened.

The forensic report isn't that difficult to understand. I really don't understand why some people keep perpetuating the myth of non-existent blood spatters or other body fluids of a sinister nature that have no basis in fact.

It's almost as if some people are hoping that this was is the case for some unfathomable reason.

Two straightforward points.

There were insufficient D.N.A. markers to identify Madeleine's presence in the samples examined.

Second, the dogs either alerted to a body or they didn't.

Comes to to a question of probability, or what you believe happened to Madeleine.

.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:09:36 PM
Two straightforward points.

There were insufficient D.N.A. markers to identify Madeleine's presence in the samples examined.

Second, the dogs either alerted to a body or they didn't.

Comes to to a question of probability, or what you believe happened to Madeleine.

.

you can believe what you want...you can believe in father Christmas but there is no evidence to support this..
you can believe maddie died in the apartment...but there is no evidence to support this
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 04:14:37 PM
you can believe what you want...you can believe in father Christmas but there is no evidence to support this..
you can believe maddie died in the apartment...but there is no evidence to support this

There is no evidence she is alive either.
'
You can believe ' pH - pOH '  has significance, but it doesn't. That by the way was one of your classics.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:19:34 PM
There is no evidence she is alive either.
'
You can believe ' pH - pOH '  has significance, but it doesn't. That by the way was one of your classics.

your problem is that you have no concept of accuracy....no concept of precision. I have never said pH-pOH has any significance...the fact that it hasn't meant you couldn't find the answer on google...I said it has  a value...and it does....and you continue to make yourself look a  fool by not understanding that.....

and you are wildly off topic as usual
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:23:26 PM
There is no evidence she is alive either.
'
You can believe ' pH - pOH '  has significance, but it doesn't. That by the way was one of your classics.


now on topic...you state..There is no evidence she is alive either

that is correct...your use of the word either shows you accept that there is no evidence maddie is dead...

so Maddie may be alive...or sadly she may be dead...so amaral misunderstood...the title of the thread...so glad you agree...
and as it is accepted she may be alive..fact...what does that mean for the alerts...it means they were not to Maddie's body
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 04:25:12 PM
your problem is that you have no concept of accuracy....no concept of precision. I have never said pH-pOH has any significance...the fact that it hasn't meant you couldn't find the answer on google...I said it has  a value...and it does....and you continue to make yourself look a  fool by not understanding that.....

and you are wildly off topic as usual

I merely pointed out you talk nonsense.

That equation has no value or merit.

If it had, you would have found an example, and you can't, because there isn't one.

and dave I don't need Google to teach Chemistry, or understand it.

Unlike you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 04:28:02 PM

now on topic...you state..There is no evidence she is alive either

that is correct...your use of the word either shows you accept that there is no evidence maddie is dead...

so Maddie may be alive...or sadly she may be dead...so amaral misunderstood...the title of the thread...so glad you agree...
and as it is accepted she may be alive..fact...what does that mean for the alerts...it means they were not to Maddie's body

The only people who believe Madeleine is still alive are those who believe in fairy tales.

I am not one of them.

How about you ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:29:05 PM
I merely pointed out you talk nonsense.

That equation has no value or merit.

If it had, you would found an example, and you can't, because there isn't one.

and dave I don't need Google to teach Chemistry, or understand it.

Unlike you.

it has a numerical value but no significance......if pH has a value and pOH has a value ...then pH -pOH must have a value..

the problem you have is it is not in your chemistry book so you cannot work out the answer...off topic again

you should stop making a fool of yourself
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:30:13 PM
The only people who believe Madeleine is still alive are those who believe in fairy tales.

I am not one of them.

How about you ?
#
I haven't said I believe Maddie is still alive...you continue to make a fool of yourself
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 04:33:21 PM
was also the last place the police were...either accidental...they were pretty poor with their forensic techniques...or even deliberate to put pressure on the mccanns to force a confession
What?
The police(if contamnated due to normal duties)  werent JUST in 5A so that argument is vacuous, unless you were thinking they planted something, if so, why not just say

edited for spello and ipad robot!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2015, 04:34:12 PM

Do I really have to start Deleting?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:35:45 PM
What?
The police(if contamnated due to normal duties)  werent JUST in 5A so that argument is vacuous, unless you were thinking thry okNted sinethng, if so, why not just say

The PJ if contaminated....police deal with dead bodies ...were in 5A...the car and handled the clothes...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:36:44 PM
Do I really have to start Deleting?

If Stephen wants to continually post off topic re pH then yes
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 04:38:01 PM
The PJ if contaminated....police deal with dead bodies ...were in 5A...the car and handled the clothes...
and were in other flats too, where Eddie didnt alert, sigh
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:38:17 PM
What?
The police(if contamnated due to normal duties)  werent JUST in 5A so that argument is vacuous, unless you were thinking they planted something, if so, why not just say

my post directly raised the possibility of planted evidence...this has to be considered a possibility
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:38:54 PM
and were in other flats too, where Eddie didnt alert, sigh

what other flats were the PJ in ....  cite
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 04:40:18 PM
my post directly raised the possibility of planted evidence...this has to be considered a possibility
why? you cant be serious
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 04:41:10 PM
what other flats were the PJ in ....  cite
err all the other flats eddie was taken to unless you thnk the PJ planted evidence before the dogs were even considered
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 04:41:30 PM
#
I haven't said I believe Maddie is still alive...you continue to make a fool of yourself

You like fairy tales of Madeleine returning, don't you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:41:40 PM
a police force that has been shown to have severely beaten a prisoner...an SIO who has been shown to have falsified a police document...a police force who have lied under oath that cipriano fell down the stairs...would have no difficulty in planting evidence ...imo
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:42:11 PM
err all the other flats eddie was taken to

who by
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:44:42 PM
err all the other flats eddie was taken to unless you thnk the PJ planted evidence before the dogs were even considered

There were pj who only went into 5a...who handled the clothes...who drove the car....contamination possible
thepj knew the dogs were coming and could have planted evidence the day before
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:45:33 PM
You like fairy tales of Madeleine returning, don't you.

I have never said Maddie is still alive...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:48:20 PM
Whilst GNR officers may have been in other apartments only the pj were in 5a..the car and handled the clothes...

Grime tells us that contamination is instant...all it would take is one pj officer to contaminate all three
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 04:54:30 PM
There were pj who only went into 5a...who handled the clothes...who drove the car....contamination possible
thepj knew the dogs were coming and could have planted evidence the day before
Really? Oh dear.

OK,who were the PJ members who ONLY went into 5A and then drove the Mccanns hire car  and handled clothes and thus contaminating deliberately or accidentally?

As for your speculation, that the PJ planted cadaver odour, its too silly for words for so many reasons
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 04:59:27 PM
Really? Oh dear.

OK,who were the PJ members who ONLY went into 5A and then drove the Mccanns hire car  and handled clothes and thus contaminating deliberately or accidentally?

As for your speculation, that the PJ planted cadaver odour, its too silly for words for so many reasons

we know the pj were in 5a...no reports or reason for them to enter any other apartment'

Could you give the reasons why the pj would not plant evidence..no where near as stupid as maddie dying almost immediately from falling off a sofa...now that is really stupid

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 05:06:07 PM
we know the pj were in 5a...no reports or reason for them to enter any other apartment'

Could you give the reasons why the pj would not plant evidence..no where near as stupid as maddie dying almost immediately from falling off a sofa...now that is really stupid
reason to NOT plant evidence? Oh dear as I said before, and
yes the PJ went into all 7 apartments and Murats villa searched by Eddie

PS How do rogue police plant cadaver odour, like, in detail please, thanks
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 05:08:47 PM
reason to NOT plant evidence? Oh dear as I said before, and
yes the PJ went into all 7 apartments and Murats villa searched by Eddie

PS How do rogue police plant cadaver odour, like, in detail please, thanks

you didn't say before...

simply take a rag to the mortuary and wipe it over the face of a cadaver....wipe the same rag over areas in the apartment..car and clothes...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 05:16:45 PM
you didn't say before...

simply take a rag to the mortuary and wipe it over the face of a cadaver....wipe the same rag over areas in the apartment..car and clothes...

it really is that simple
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 05:18:12 PM
you didn't say before...

simply take a rag to the mortuary and wipe it over the face of a cadaver....wipe the same rag over areas in the apartment..car and clothes...
OMG

 @)(++(*

Yes Im sure this happens all the time

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 05:19:14 PM
it really is that simple

I think when people start talking to themselves its time to go, tara for now
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 05:20:18 PM
OMG

 @)(++(*

Yes Im sure this happens all the time

it is certainly possible...unlike maddie dying falling off a sofa which many on here seem to believe
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 05:23:11 PM
it is certainly possible...unlike maddie dying falling off a sofa which many on here seem to believe

Merely because the davel doesn't say something could happen as a result of a fall, doesn't make it true.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 25, 2015, 05:24:14 PM
Some long forgotten Tiler could well have cut himself.  And so it seems did the person who raised the tiles.

Eddie was fine, he just wasn't a proper Cadaver Dog, so no one, not even Martin Grime knew what he was alerting to.

Forensics found nothing in the Prout case but the police knew what Eddie alerted to. They just had to prove it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 25, 2015, 05:24:57 PM

We appear to be slipping off topic

Please adhere to the Topic of this thread. Thank you.

Further Off Topic posts will be deleted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 05:25:22 PM
Merely because the davel doesn't say something could happen as a result of a fall, doesn't make it true.

you are getting confused...I have said that there are no reports of instant death from a fall involving a child in  adomestic situation...that seems to be a fact as no one has been able to produce  a report
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 25, 2015, 05:27:41 PM
you didn't say before...

simply take a rag to the mortuary and wipe it over the face of a cadaver....wipe the same rag over areas in the apartment..car and clothes...

Please take this discussion up on an appropriate thread topic
Author Topic: Could the cadaver scent have been planted? (Read 13601 times)
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2046.msg66419#msg66419
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 05:29:01 PM
you are getting confused...I have said that there are no reports of instant death from a fall involving a child in  adomestic situation...that seems to be a fact as no one has been able to produce  a report

Are all accidents reported davel ?

Can you say with 100% certainty it couldn't ?

Basically, as I said earlier, it comes down to two options, either the dogs alerted to a body or they didn't.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 05:33:07 PM
Are all accidents reported davel ?

Can you say with 100% certainty it couldn't ?

I would say all fatal accidents are reported in the UK ......and most civilised countries. The mechanism of death in these cases would lead me to say 100% it could not happen.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 05:33:47 PM
Are all accidents reported davel ?

Can you say with 100% certainty it couldn't ?

Basically, as I said earlier, it comes down to two options, either the dogs alerted to a body or they didn't.
could have been toenails or sweat though

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 05:35:39 PM
Are all accidents reported davel ?

Can you say with 100% certainty it couldn't ?

Basically, as I said earlier, it comes down to two options, either the dogs alerted to a body or they didn't.

that's on topic...and true..the dogs may have alerted to a body..or they may not...amaral was wrong to conclude they did

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 05:42:44 PM
that's on topic...and true..the dogs may have alerted to a body..or they may not...amaral was wrong to conclude they did
wrong is better than satan, an improvement I suppose
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 25, 2015, 06:10:08 PM
Forensics found nothing in the Prout case but the police knew what Eddie alerted to. They just had to prove it.

No doubt based on the dog's alert, they formulated a theory that Prout strangled his wife in the main house of the Prouts.

He strangled her in an outhouse, a few hundred yards away ....

And the dog alert formed no part of the prosecution's case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 06:14:14 PM
that's on topic...and true..the dogs may have alerted to a body..or they may not...amaral was wrong to conclude they did

He made the conclusion as did others, based on the information made available.

The forensic results did not show conclusive evidence either way, but then it wasn't the only information which pointed to a certain conclusion.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 25, 2015, 06:22:21 PM
A good demonstration of a dog in action in the second part of this video.
http://youtu.be/ZseVVfswzPA
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 25, 2015, 06:33:19 PM
you didn't say before...

simply take a rag to the mortuary and wipe it over the face of a cadaver....wipe the same rag over areas in the apartment..car and clothes...

In theory, that would seem possible. Even burying a bit of cloth in the nearby cemetary overnight might have done the trick.

Until recently, I found that idea too far-fetched to be credible. Now, I'm not so sure.

I find it to be an amazing ooincidence that Eddie alerted to the precise areas that Amaral found suspicious in photos (the sofa that everyone and his brother would have checked behind before that photo was taken) and the dark travel case (aka "blue tennis bag") that wasn't there in the the subsequent photos taken the next day. The forensic squad didn't notice a travel case and check it? Seriously?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 06:34:31 PM
fantastic video! the dog knew the scent was in the environs, just had a little trouble locating it
a reminder to critics of Eddie being used for "too long" in 5A and not kong enough elsewhere!
poor little kid though, these stories never cease to shock!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 06:39:22 PM
In theory, that would seem possible. Even burying a bit of cloth in the nearby cemetary overnight might have done the trick.

Until recently, I found that idea too far-fetched to be credible. Now, I'm not so sure.

I find it to be an amazing ooincidence that Eddie alerted to the precise areas that Amaral found suspicious in photos (the sofa that everyone and his brother would have checked behind before that photo was taken) and the dark travel case (aka "blue tennis bag") that wasn't there in the the subsequent photos taken the next day. The forensic squad didn't notice a travel case and check it? Seriously?
ah but what came first? Amaral's suspicions or the dog alerts? why on earth would Amaral suspect a fatal fall off the sofa werent it for the dogs
The concept of planted cadaver scent is a bit silly tbh
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 06:45:05 PM
He made the conclusion as did others, based on the information made available.

The forensic results did not show conclusive evidence either way, but then it wasn't the only information which pointed to a certain conclusion.
the others were also wrong...as you have admitted...the alert may or may not have indicated a cadaver

when all the evidence was properly considered the arguido status was removed
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 06:49:03 PM
In theory, that would seem possible. Even burying a bit of cloth in the nearby cemetary overnight might have done the trick.

Until recently, I found that idea too far-fetched to be credible. Now, I'm not so sure.

I find it to be an amazing ooincidence that Eddie alerted to the precise areas that Amaral found suspicious in photos (the sofa that everyone and his brother would have checked behind before that photo was taken) and the dark travel case (aka "blue tennis bag") that wasn't there in the the subsequent photos taken the next day. The forensic squad didn't notice a travel case and check it? Seriously?
[/quote
ah but what came first? Amaral's suspicions or the dog alerts? why on earth would Amaral suspect a fatal fall off the sofa werent it for the dogs
The concept of planted cadaver scent is a bit silly tbh

amaral suspected the parents long before the dogs.....I find what you believe more than a bit silly..in fact very silly...so there you are
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 06:50:05 PM
No, the arguido status was removed because the case was shelved not because any authority deemed the Mccanns not guilty, how could they anyway if they said the crime was unknown

Legal technicality rather than exoneration
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 06:52:09 PM
amaral suspected the parents long before the dogs.....I find what you believe more than a bit silly..in fact very silly...so there you are

It doesnt really matter if he did or  didnt in the context of this discussion, where its been put forward that delberate planting of cadaver odour was done near the sofa

do you understand? hope so

ps remnd me of what I   beleve seeing as you know but I dont


 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 06:53:06 PM
No, the arguido status was removed because the case was shelved not because any authority deemed the Mccanns not guilty, how could they anyway if they said the crime was unknown

Legal technicality rather than exoneration

the case was shelved because of lack of evidence of any crime by the arguidos..they either had to be charged or released from arguido status
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 06:53:49 PM
It doesnt really matter if he did or  didnt in the context of this discussion, where its been put forward that delberate planting of cadaver odour was done near the sofa

do you understand? hope so

ps remnd me of what I   beleve seeing as you know but I dont


 @)(++(*

I've put it forward
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 06:55:06 PM
It doesnt really matter if he did or  didnt in the context of this discussion, where its been put forward that delberate planting of cadaver odour was done near the sofa

do you understand? hope so

ps remnd me of what I   beleve seeing as you know but I dont


 @)(++(*

read your post and they will remind you of what you believe
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 06:57:20 PM
the case was shelved because of lack of evidence of any crime by the arguidos..they either had to be charged or released from arguido status

you stated the arguido status was lifted because all the evidence was considered ie inferrng it was exoneration,it wasnt, thats all, it was lfted as is required when a case is shelved..IE put on semi pertanent hold
The Portuguese authorities have never cleared the parents
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 06:59:39 PM
read your post and they will remind you of what you believe

post is singular
they is plural
which one are you referring to?

PS I am the only arbiter of my beliefs, not you, and wont be told what they are (or not told as is the case here)  by you
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 25, 2015, 07:04:26 PM
the others were also wrong...as you have admitted...the alert may or may not have indicated a cadaver

when all the evidence was properly considered the arguido status was removed

and arguido status can be initiated.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 07:21:48 PM
post is singular
they is plural
which one are you referring to?

PS I am the only arbiter of my beliefs, not you, and wont be told what they are (or not told as is the case here)  by you
Now have a lovely evenng and I shall be back later! to correct any more nonsense

you correct my typos but ignore your own....in your previous post the use the word infer ...when you should have used imply...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 07:25:19 PM
you stated the arguido status was lifted because all the evidence was considered ie inferrng it was exoneration,it wasnt, thats all, it was lfted as is required when a case is shelved..IE put on semi pertanent hold
The Portuguese authorities have never cleared the parents

why was the case shelved...because of lack of evidence to proceed against the two arguidos...I am not implying( note not inferring) anything... just stating fact...

probably best to ignore my typos as your posts are full of grammatical, punctuation and spelling errors...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 07:26:42 PM
and arguido status can be initiated.

of course...but now evidence is needed which was not the case when the mccanns were made arguida
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2015, 07:39:00 PM
No doubt based on the dog's alert, they formulated a theory that Prout strangled his wife in the main house of the Prouts.

He strangled her in an outhouse, a few hundred yards away ....

And the dog alert formed no part of the prosecution's case.

Do you have a link for that please ferryman? I can't find one.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 25, 2015, 07:57:25 PM
Do you have a link for that please ferryman? I can't find one.

Pheasant pen, it would seem

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2139103/Millionaire-farmer-strangled-wife-driving-pub-glass-whisky-inquest-hears.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 08:00:33 PM
why was the case shelved...because of lack of evidence to proceed against the two arguidos...I am not implying( note not inferring) anything... just stating fact...

probably best to ignore my typos as your posts are full of grammatical, punctuation and spelling errors...

How extremely pedantic pointless  and petty of you

Having a space bar problem sometimes is not a sign of being grammatically stupid, will give you the "pertinant" point though, silly me, must give my A Level English Lit and Language certificates back and hope for their returns when I learn to spell "pertinent"
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 08:02:38 PM
of course...but now evidence is needed which was not the case when the mccanns were made arguida
Yes, the Portuguese judiciary allowed the PJ to make them arguidos based in someones evil whim...how gruesome
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 25, 2015, 08:03:43 PM

Please can we stop this.  It's not helping or doing any thing for debate.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 08:06:29 PM
How extremely pedantic pointless  and petty of you

Having a space bar problem sometimes is not a sign of being grammatically stupid, will give you the "pertinant" point though, silly me, must give my A Level English Lit and Language certificates back and hope for their returns when I learn to spell "pertinent"

as you have criticised me then....your misuse of the word infer instead of imply was you most revealing error
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 08:08:28 PM
Im happy to stop replyng to silly posts such as Amaral snooped down the local morgue and wiped his hanky on a handy corpse then ran to flat 5a to smear it in the sofa and bed so as to frame the Mccanns, AND that this idea is more likely than a child dyng by an accident, even if you cant stand the man, theres limits to "sensible" debate surely

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 08:11:22 PM
Im happy to stop replyng to silly posts such as Amaral snooped down the local morgue and wiped his hanky on a handy corpse then ran to flat 5a to smear it in the sofa and bed so as to frame the Mccanns, even if you cant stand the man, theres limits to "sensible" debate surely

as I have said far more likely than the ultra silly accusations by amaral against the mccanns. Particularly the man's gross ignorance of cadaver dog alerts and DNA....and he is supposed to be a professional
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 08:14:50 PM


you will find that my accusation of evidence planting will stay as it's a perfectly reasonable suggestion
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 25, 2015, 08:19:06 PM
Im happy to stop replyng to silly posts such as Amaral snooped down the local morgue and wiped his hanky on a handy corpse then ran to flat 5a to smear it in the sofa and bed so as to frame the Mccanns, AND that this idea is more likely than a child dyng by an accident, even if you cant stand the man, theres limits to "sensible" debate surely

On the other hand mercury,  who would have believed when Madeleine disappeared that her case would be investigated by two corrupt policemen.     One willing to lie to pervert the course of justice, and the other willing to torture people to get  'a result'.     And who have both ended up with criminal records because they had no qualms about abusing the power which had been entrusted to them.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2015, 08:32:37 PM
you will find that my accusation of evidence planting will stay as it's a perfectly reasonable suggestion

You do realise that by suggesting that the PJ planted cadaver scent in the apartment you are accepting that Eddie's alerts were correct? Therefore, if they didn't plant cadaver scent a body must have been there at some point?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 08:39:07 PM
Im happy to stop replyng to silly posts such as Amaral snooped down the local morgue and wiped his hanky on a handy corpse then ran to flat 5a to smear it in the sofa and bed so as to frame the Mccanns, AND that this idea is more likely than a child dyng by an accident, even if you cant stand the man, theres limits to "sensible" debate surely
b

Amaral would not have had to go to the local morgue.
Large police stations have their own PM room with cadavers waiting for autopsies
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 08:39:38 PM
as you have criticised me then....your misuse of the word infer instead of imply was you most revealing error
Still at the nonsense? Oh well, take a chill pill dear
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 25, 2015, 08:44:21 PM
Pheasant pen, it would seem

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2139103/Millionaire-farmer-strangled-wife-driving-pub-glass-whisky-inquest-hears.html

The balding businessman (Adrian Prout) made the admission taking a lie detector test – which he then failed.

British and European Polygraph Association chairman Don Cargill, recalled: “I said, ‘You’re a murderer.’ He just said ‘Ummmh.’ So I said, ‘Are you saying my test is wrong?’

“He actually replied, ‘No, your test is not wrong.’”

Don, also said: “He smiled in what was one of the most surreal and chilling experiences of my life.

“There was no emotion at all, he was really calm and cool, chillingly so.

“He’d been so used to being in control. He didn’t fool the jury but he’s fooled a lot of other people, his family and friends and his fiancee."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2139103/Millionaire-farmer-strangled-wife-driving-pub-glass-whisky-inquest-hears.html

Don Cargill, chairman of the British and European Polygraph Association, said the McCanns told him they would only take the test if it was 100 per cent accurate and admissible in a Portuguese court.

He told the Sunday Express: "Kate said she'd take it to prove her innocence but in reality, she wasn't willing."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-494765/Now-Kate-McCann-refuses-lie-detector-test-clear-name.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 08:44:36 PM
On the other hand mercury,  who would have believed when Madeleine disappeared that her case would be investigated by two corrupt policemen.     One willing to lie to pervert the course of justice, and the other willing to torture people to get  'a result'.     And who have both ended up with criminal records because they had no qualms about abusing the power which had been entrusted to them.

IIRC Mr Amaral was found guilty in court of law for...well, do you know exactly  what? Bet you don't
In the case the two people tried were convicted for murder
You cant have it both ways iyswim
Who is the other bloke?
And how did Amaral and ANO abuse any power in the MM case?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 08:48:40 PM
You do realise that by suggesting that the PJ planted cadaver scent in the apartment you are accepting that Eddie's alerts were correct? Therefore, if they didn't plant cadaver scent a body must have been there at some point?

Not at all , you are mistaken
There are several scenarios
Eddie could be wrong
Grime could be wrong
The alerts may have been due to contamination
There may have been a cadaver in the apartment previously


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 08:57:40 PM
There has to be a reason why the alerts are not admissible......
The only one I can think of is they are not reliable
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 08:58:18 PM
Not at all , you are mistaken
There are several scenarios
Eddie could be wrong
Grime could be wrong
The alerts may have been due to contamination
There may have been a cadaver in the apartment previously
last point is dud as police confirmed no one had ever died there before, so you are mistaken there
you also have to furnish us with evidence or reason  of how Mr Grime could be wrong,tia
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 09:00:21 PM
last point is dud as police confirmed no one had ever died there before, so you are mistaken there
you also have to furnish us with evidence or reason  of how Mr Grime could be wrong,tia

I'm referring to a cadaver with Maddie as a possibility ...no dud
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Matthew Wyse on July 25, 2015, 09:02:15 PM
Not at all , you are mistaken
There are several scenarios
Eddie could be wrong
Grime could be wrong
The alerts may have been due to contamination
There may have been a cadaver in the apartment previously

but then again Eddie and Grime might have been right and you are wrong.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 09:03:06 PM
There has to be a reason why the alerts are not admissible......
The only one I can think of is they are not reliable
keep saying that to yourself, one day you might actually believe it
hopefully not though as its patently untrue
Or alternatively join the Gerry Mccann club of cadaver dogs are incredibly unreliable claptrap
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2015, 09:05:57 PM
Not at all , you are mistaken
There are several scenarios
Eddie could be wrong
Grime could be wrong
The alerts may have been due to contamination
There may have been a cadaver in the apartment previously

In which case PJ officers wiping cadavers and planting the scent in the apartment were wasting their time, weren't they? You can't have your cake and eat it. One minute the dog was wrong, next minute it was right but it was a plant gov.  8(>((
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 09:06:54 PM
I'm referring to a cadaver with Maddie as a possibility ...no dud

err no you posted no cadaver in the apartment previously

so yes dud
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 09:07:12 PM
but then again Eddie and Grime might have been right and you are wrong.

Grime doesn't mention Maddie
Grime says there are several options including contamination
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 09:07:50 PM
In which case PJ officers wiping cadavers and planting the scent in the apartment were wasting their time, weren't they? You can't have your cake and eat it. One minute the dog was wrong, next minute it was right but it was a plant gov.  8(>((

PMSL, how true

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 09:08:51 PM
In which case PJ officers wiping cadavers and planting the scent in the apartment were wasting their time, weren't they? You can't have your cake and eat it. One minute the dog was wrong, next minute it was right but it was a plant gov.  8(>((

The lasting of evidence would be to enable an arrest or force a confession of guilty
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 09:10:27 PM
PMSL, how true

 @)(++(*

I will resist the obvious joke
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 09:11:30 PM
Off out npe
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 09:26:21 PM
who is npe?
yes, bye now, dont bang your head and falloff the sofa on your way out lol
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 25, 2015, 09:38:19 PM
There is something wrong with the exact theory proposed by Amaral to explain the dog alerts.
If someone finds something in the lounge and takes it to the outdoors - all that happening within a tiny slot of a two or three minutes  - why on earth would anyone waste time taking it into a wardrobe in a different room on the way - it would be pointless wouldn't it? - and Amaral fails to state a believable reason why someone would do that complicated diversion.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 09:52:25 PM
There is something wrong with the sequence of events proposed by Amaral to explain the dog alerts.
If someone finds something in the lounge and takes it to the outdoors - all that happening within a tiny slot of a two or three minutes  - why on earth would anyone waste time taking it into a wardrobe in a different room on the way - it would be pointless wouldn't it? - and Amaral fails to state a believable reason why someone would do that complicated diversion.
Its possible Madleine died in 5a and its possible she was in the parents bedroom before or after, (MO went looking for her in her parents room rather  than her own room for some reason and also Kate Mccann is on tv record saying you would never think someone would take your child out of "your bed") the alerts outside have always been a bit mysterious
Mr Amaral never claimed to be God or a cadaver and blood dog expert...he spoke as he found as he understood at the time and after advice and info from UK experts, and lets face it, most child disappearances are NOT by strangers, why blame him

What is ridiculous to me is that some people say the cadaver dog could have alerted to sweat in 5A! etc etc Smacks of total denial
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2015, 10:56:07 PM
who is npe?
yes, bye now, dont bang your head and falloff the sofa on your way out lol

More likely on the way in perhaps if drinking is happening?  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2015, 11:05:36 PM
There is something wrong with the exact theory proposed by Amaral to explain the dog alerts.
If someone finds something in the lounge and takes it to the outdoors - all that happening within a tiny slot of a two or three minutes  - why on earth would anyone waste time taking it into a wardrobe in a different room on the way - it would be pointless wouldn't it? - and Amaral fails to state a believable reason why someone would do that complicated diversion.

Perhaps he thought the alert was related to clothes in the wardrobe. Wasn't there some talk of a bag also? The one David Payne was asked about and he said the McCanns didn't have a bag you could hide..put...a... tennis racket in.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 25, 2015, 11:08:58 PM
Amaral's exact theory (which I think is wrong) has discovery in the last check about 10.00pm at location = sofa lounge. Then at 10.05pm he has location = Rua 25 Abril.
His theory provides no time and no reason to unnecessary sandwich another location = cupboard other bedroom in between. And what would be the point of that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 11:09:43 PM
More likely on the way in perhaps if drinking is happening?  @)(++(*
No way, Davel is an intelligent super iq know it all poster with the best arguments around, we are all so stupid compared etc

Stop being so silly, its FAR more likely that Mr Amaral visited the local morgue and swept his hanky over the nearest corpse then popped along to flat 5a pretending to have a sniffle whilst surreptitiously wiping said hanky over furniture etc

Bloody Laurel and Hardy werent as funny!!

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2015, 11:11:58 PM
Amaral's exact theory (which I think is wrong) has discovery in the last check about 10.00pm at location = sofa lounge. Then at 10.05pm he has location = Rua 25 Abril.
His theory provides no time and no reason to unnecessary sandwich another location = other bedroom in between. And what would be the point of that?

Oh, I see. I haven't read his theory I'm afraid. I think he's wrong also then.  8((()*/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 11:12:12 PM
Amaral's exact theory (which I think is wrong) has discovery in the last check about 10.00pm at location = sofa lounge. Then at 10.05pm he has location = Rua 25 Abril.
His theory provides no time and no reason to unnecessary sandwich another location = other bedroom in between. And what would be the point of that?
Amaral hypothetised, never had a concrete theory, dont blame him either
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 25, 2015, 11:28:52 PM
Amaral hypothetised, never had a concrete theory, dont blame him either
IMO big omission is he never offered any behavioural explanation for his cupboard hypothesis
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:35:23 PM
err no you posted no cadaver in the apartment previously

so yes dud

previously...before the dogs arrived....it's called reacting to remnant scent
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:39:35 PM
Amaral hypothetised, never had a concrete theory, dont blame him either

amaral's book was called the truth about the lie...that is ... the "truth"...he claimed he could prove Maddie died in 5a..

he couldn't...the man is a fool for that reason and so is anyone who believes him
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:42:11 PM
No way, Davel is an intelligent super iq know it all poster with the best arguments around, we are all so stupid compared etc

Stop being so silly, its FAR more likely that Mr Amaral visited the local morgue and swept his hanky over the nearest corpse then popped along to flat 5a pretending to have a sniffle whilst surreptitiously wiping said hanky over furniture etc

Bloody Laurel and Hardy werent as funny!!

 I know the difference between infer and imply....which sets me apart from some on here
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 11:44:50 PM
previously...before the dogs arrived....it's called reacting to remnant scent
yes, no deaths recorded previously ie prior to this case as told to us by police, and to be extra sure you understand, NO deaths before May 3 2007
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 11:45:59 PM
IMO big omission is he never offered any behavioural explanation for his cupboard hypothesis
He didnt have to, he was pointing out facts
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:46:17 PM
yes, no deaths recorded previously ie prior to this case as told to us by police, and to be extra sure you understand, NO deaths before May 3 2007

never implied there were...perhaps you have inferred incorrectly
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 11:48:06 PM
amaral's book was called the truth about the lie...that is ... the "truth"...he claimed he could prove Maddie died in 5a..

he couldn't...the man is a fool for that reason and so is anyone who believes him

of course he is...according to YOU then again he might not be, no need to get so het up really as its none of your business either way
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:49:10 PM
He didnt have to, he was pointing out facts

amaral got the basic facts totally wrong...which is inexcusable as the SIO
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:50:26 PM
of course he is...according to YOU then again he might not be, no need to get so het up really as its none of your business either way


could you repeat your post in english
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 11:51:09 PM
never implied there were...perhaps you have inferred incorrectly

yup, you surely did in post 1303... suggested the possibility...your theoretical possibility was removed by the police who stated the fact there were none
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 11:51:59 PM
amaral got the basic facts totally wrong...which is inexcusable as the SIO
no evidence he did so
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 25, 2015, 11:52:59 PM
No way, Davel is an intelligent super iq know it all poster with the best arguments around, we are all so stupid compared etc

Stop being so silly, its FAR more likely that Mr Amaral visited the local morgue and swept his hanky over the nearest corpse then popped along to flat 5a pretending to have a sniffle whilst surreptitiously wiping said hanky over furniture etc

Bloody Laurel and Hardy werent as funny!!

It's on a par with the 'source' who suggested that Kate Mccann and cuddle cat played with half a dozen corpses just before she went on holiday.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:54:44 PM
of course he is...according to YOU then again he might not be, no need to get so het up really as its none of your business either way

you are a newcomer with poor knowledge of the facts...you were not aware that Tavares has now a conviction for torture...perhaps a little humility would be in order towards those with far more knowledge
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 25, 2015, 11:55:30 PM
It's on a par with the 'source' who suggested that Kate Mccann and cuddle cat played with half a dozen corpses just before she went on holiday.

OMG forgot all about that!
 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:56:18 PM
no evidence he did so


there is absolute proof...even Stephen accepts...that he did
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 25, 2015, 11:58:20 PM
yup, you surely did in post 1303... suggested the possibility...your theoretical possibility was removed by the police who stated the fact there were none

no I didn't...you are wrong yet  again.....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 12:06:52 AM
no I didn't...you are wrong yet  again.....
no, youre wrong, this is a copy of your post 1303 where you DID suggest exactly that in the last sentence!


Not at all , you are mistaken
There are several scenarios
Eddie could be wrong
Grime could be wrong
The alerts may have been due to contamination
There may have been a cadaver in the apartment previously

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 26, 2015, 12:10:04 AM
my post directly raised the possibility of planted evidence...this has to be considered a possibility
I have wondered that too.

Several things, which I have covered before, have made me wonder.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 26, 2015, 03:42:23 AM
amaral got the basic facts totally wrong...which is inexcusable as the SIO
Partly wrong, not totally wrong.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2015, 07:49:54 AM
Partly wrong, not totally wrong.

I think he managed to work out that Madeleine was missing ... can you think of anything else he got right?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 26, 2015, 08:05:16 AM
I think he managed to work out that Madeleine was missing ... can you think of anything else he got right?

David Payne saw Madeleine, alive and well, at around 1700 on May 3rd.

Amaral has never gone with before May 3rd.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 08:39:12 AM
David Payne saw Madeleine, alive and well, at around 1700 on May 3rd.

Amaral has never gone with before May 3rd.

According to all the statements David Payne was at the beach at 1700.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2015, 09:00:25 AM
David Payne saw Madeleine, alive and well, at around 1700 on May 3rd.

Amaral has never gone with before May 3rd.

Yeah ... I'll give him credit for that one ... but it didn't take rocket science to work it out.  Pity about the dogs though, he picked up what he wanted to hear from the handler and ignored anything that didn't fit in with his perception of how and who.

Classic error there in trying to make the evidence fit the theory ... it is good to see the professional work being done by the PJ and SY now who are doing what professionals do and following the evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 26, 2015, 09:33:20 AM
Yeah ... I'll give him credit for that one ... but it didn't take rocket science to work it out.  Pity about the dogs though, he picked up what he wanted to hear from the handler and ignored anything that didn't fit in with his perception of how and who.

Classic error there in trying to make the evidence fit the theory ... it is good to see the professional work being done by the PJ and SY now who are doing what professionals do and following the evidence.

and what these professionals found, after millions of Pounds and Euros spent ?

There is of course a simple one word answer. 8(>((
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2015, 10:29:37 AM
and what these professionals found, after millions of Pounds and Euros spent ?

There is of course a simple one word answer. 8(>((

no evidence against the McCanns
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2015, 11:07:20 AM
I cannot see that SY would still have 40 staff on the case if they had nothing to investigate. I look forward to when the can actually tell us what has gone on...at the moment they are governed by Portuguese secrecy
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 26, 2015, 11:22:56 AM
According to all the statements David Payne was at the beach at 1700.
I am not checking what you are saying because you are being far too picky and precise.


Just how accurate do you think these timings are?  Especially the ones earlier in the day, which may not have seemed so important.


How far away do you think the beach is?
About 450 metres.   A walk of about 4.5 minutes.

These people tended to jog, so less than 2 minutes probably


Just how accurate do you think these timings were?   Be realistic, puleaze.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 11:33:24 AM
I am not checking what you are saying because you are being far too picky and precise.


Just how accurate do you think these timings are?  Especially the ones earlier in the day, which may not have seemed so important.


How far away do you think the beach is?
About 450 metres.   A walk of about 4.5 minutes.

These people tended to jog, so less than 2 minutes probably


Just how accurate do you think these timings were?   Be realistic, puleaze.

I think you need to be better informed. All agreed that the Paynes, the O'Brien/Tanners and the Oldfields were at the beach all afternoon on 3rd May, returning after 18.00. CCTV footage from the beach cafe where they fed their children that day shows the three men setting off just after 18.00 to return to the Club to play in the men's tennis. David Payne visited Kate McCann at 18.30 at Gerald's request.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 26, 2015, 11:34:42 AM
I cannot see that SY would still have 40 staff on the case if they had nothing to investigate. I look forward to when the can actually tell us what has gone on...at the moment they are governed by Portuguese secrecy
Spot on.

Mark my words,
... they know who they are after ... and wheels are grinding behind the scenes in the hopes that they can prove it beyond doubt.


Only IMO of course.   8(0(*


But they aint gonna tell us any way, are they?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2015, 11:42:44 AM
Spot on.

Mark my words,
... they know who they are after ... and wheels are grinding behind the scenes in the hopes that they can prove it beyond doubt.


Only IMO of course.   8(0(*


But they aint gonna tell us any way, are they?

I agree, Sadie.  SY and The PJ know who they are after.  They probably even know where Madeleine is, albeit possibly in a country from which it will be difficult to extract her.

And No, they ain't going to tell anyone anything.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2015, 12:42:56 PM
I agree, Sadie.  SY and The PJ know who they are after.  They probably even know where Madeleine is, albeit possibly in a country from which it will be difficult to extract her.

And No, they ain't going to tell anyone anything.

They wouldn't spend millions on a search operation in Luz if they knew where she was. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2015, 12:51:06 PM
They wouldn't spend millions on a search operation in Luz if they knew where she was.

You don't know where the millions are being spent, or where they are searching.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2015, 12:54:58 PM
You don't know where the millions are being spent, or where they are searching.

We all saw where they were searching. On a hill - hope it wasn't Kate's dream.

(https://zizipresscuts.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/praia-da-luz.png)

(http://static2.hln.be/static/photo/2014/12/16/14/20140706200817/media_xll_6880919.jpg)

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/75445000/jpg/_75445113_022632966-1.jpg)

Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 26, 2015, 01:03:52 PM
Amaral's exact theory (which I think is wrong) has discovery in the last check about 10.00pm at location = sofa lounge. Then at 10.05pm he has location = Rua 25 Abril.
His theory provides no time and no reason to unnecessary sandwich another location = cupboard other bedroom in between. And what would be the point of that?

Because he found the fact that a bag was in the cupboard in one police photo and not in the photos taken later. In some interview or other he insinuated that the bag was could have been used to get rid of certain items of interest. In the Cipriano case, the prosecution's case was that after killing her, they wrapped her bloody body in a duvet and shoved her body in another room while they decided what to do with it (before the chopping up and freezer-stuffing session that no one saw). The following evening, Leonor was seen standing with a plastic shopping bag in the company of João and that must have contained the saw and knife.

So, we have another case with a scenario of a non-missing blanket, a freezer, death involving a wall, a hiding place while the next steps are thought out, a possibly non-missing bag with incriminating evidence, frantic wall-washing that no one noticed, no signficant forensic evidence, a body that may have been dumped in the garden for the night, then picked up and moved, then disposed of by vehicle at some later point, hints of scandalous sexual behaviour / or of a mother blowing a fuse (sedation was a gentler version in the latter case), two mothers who apparently didn't show enough emotion in public...

And Eddie barked by the living-room wall, the parents' bedroom and the garden. It might all be coincidence, of course.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 26, 2015, 01:05:38 PM
We all saw where they were searching. On a hill - hope it wasn't Kate's dream.

(https://zizipresscuts.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/praia-da-luz.png)

(http://static2.hln.be/static/photo/2014/12/16/14/20140706200817/media_xll_6880919.jpg)

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/75445000/jpg/_75445113_022632966-1.jpg)

Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.
Good try

But you got the wrong hill  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 01:08:29 PM
David Payne saw Madeleine, alive and well, at around 1700 on May 3rd.

Amaral has never gone with before May 3rd.

She was at kids' club at that time, so obviously,  IMO,  a typo for the actual time nearer 7pm unless Payne just got it wrong when he was interviewed by Leicester Police.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2015, 01:10:19 PM
We all saw where they were searching. On a hill - hope it wasn't Kate's dream.

(https://zizipresscuts.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/praia-da-luz.png)

(http://static2.hln.be/static/photo/2014/12/16/14/20140706200817/media_xll_6880919.jpg)

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/75445000/jpg/_75445113_022632966-1.jpg)

Insp Paiva told the hearing in Lisbon: “Kate called me, she was alone as Gerry was away and she was crying.
“She said she had dreamt that Madeleine was on a hill and that we should search for her there.

That was months ago.  Years even.  I think they might have moved on.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 01:31:29 PM
I think he managed to work out that Madeleine was missing ... can you think of anything else he got right?

Are sarcastic pointless put downs a staple for you?
How about criticising the British police who "sat" on "crecheman" for years and seemingly didn't have the nous to put 2 and 2 together and manage to come up with 4? Unless you are of the Redwood "made it all up brigade"



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2015, 01:43:59 PM
Are sarcastic pointless put downs a staple for you?
How about criticising the British police who "sat" on "crecheman" for years and seemingly didn't have the nous to put 2 and 2 together and manage to come up with 4? Unless you are of the Redwood "made it all up brigade"

The British police had no jurisdiction ... in the meantime, in Portugal those who did and do were sitting on the self same efits ...funny that.  By your reckoning, the PJ had no "nous" either.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 01:48:58 PM
The British police had no jurisdiction ... in the meantime, in Portugal those who did and do were sitting on the self same efits ...funny that.  By your reckoning, the PJ had no "nous" either.

They were tasked to assist and they failed if for years Tannerman was Crecheman.

Portuguese police did not have info on Crecheman OR Smithman efits, at least until 2009, if at all,  after the case was shelved
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 26, 2015, 01:54:24 PM
I note earlier that some people still expect Madeleine to be found alive and well, even though there been no trace of her in over 8 years.

There is blind belief, but what happens if she never returns home ?

What will they do then ?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 26, 2015, 02:20:49 PM
They were tasked to assist and they failed if for years Tannerman was Crecheman.

Portuguese police did not have info on Crecheman OR Smithman efits, at least until 2009, if at all,  after the case was shelved

They were tasked to assist, yes: they offered expert assistance and dealt with most of the coordination of the sightings with Interpol (to double-check), and any requests for UK-based enquries.

But why would that include obtaining crèche records for them? LP may have thought they'd done that, and it might have sounded a bit offensive to ask them if they had.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2015, 02:20:56 PM
Good try

But you got the wrong hill  @)(++(*

Tell me more  ?{)(** I know they did and you would move a body out of town not into it (if not inside) so those cliffs would be first thought you know where they ran to and surrounded by 12 dogs 8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 02:43:04 PM
They were tasked to assist, yes: they offered expert assistance and dealt with most of the coordination of the sightings with Interpol (to double-check), and any requests for UK-based enquries.

But why would that include obtaining crèche records for them? LP may have thought they'd done that, and it might have sounded a bit offensive to ask them if they had.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/editors-picks/madeleine-mccann-bungling-police-prime-2965027

I realise this is off topic and also another Groundhog day event!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 26, 2015, 02:53:05 PM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/editors-picks/madeleine-mccann-bungling-police-prime-2965027

I realise this is off topic and also another Groundhog day event!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-anyone-saying-were-2965383
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 03:04:54 PM
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-anyone-saying-were-2965383

Not exactly clear or helpful that article, is it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 03:32:21 PM
So no-one knows why the 'innocent' Dad was overlooked and no-one knows who failed to spot his statement. No-one knows if LP passed the statement to the PJ, and if they did, what happened to it next. Very informative.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 26, 2015, 03:50:57 PM
So no-one knows why the 'innocent' Dad was overlooked and no-one knows who failed to spot his statement. No-one knows if LP passed the statement to the PJ, and if they did, what happened to it next. Very informative.

Very true but the article manages to sow this little seed of doubt without any evidence to back it up:-
snip >>>>
In their liaison role, they may have simply forwarded the questionnaires to Portuguese police without analysing them themselves.
Even if they did consider the content, they may not have realised the relevance without access to all of the material.
The information should have been recognised as of great relevance by the Portuguese police.

snip <<<<
Or in other words: "nothing to do with us pal it were Johnny Foreigner what was less than diligent"   %&5%£

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 26, 2015, 03:56:43 PM
And as we know "Johnny Foreigner" should always remain above criticism lest one be accused of xenophobia.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 26, 2015, 03:59:23 PM
So no-one knows why the 'innocent' Dad was overlooked and no-one knows who failed to spot his statement. No-one knows if LP passed the statement to the PJ, and if they did, what happened to it next. Very informative.

It's possible that LP lost it, just as it's possible it was just passed on with whatever else came in. The PJ weren't interested in Tannerman anyway, once Jane couldn't identify the person as Murat. They then seem to have decided she'd made it up.

They were interested in Smithman, but that wasn't Murat either. And then they only appear to have pricked up their ears when Martin thought it might have been Gerry.

Did they ever actually check the night crèche records? There are no sheets in the files, yet there are Tapas reservations, the day crèche ones and accommodation bookings.

If it is accurate that crècheman contacted LP, then it wasn't the PJ requesting LP to follow up on records they'd obtained. If they had got the records (and they're simply not in the accessible files), and had asked LP to follow up and contact then, there's no correspondence to that effect.

The GNR and the PJ did ask a number of people whether they'd seen a man carrying a child or anything suspicious, but I can't see anything to indicate that the PJ had been asking if they themselves or someone they knew had carried their own child home that night.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 03:59:54 PM
Very true but the article manages to sow this little seed of doubt without any evidence to back it up:-
snip >>>>
In their liaison role, they may have simply forwarded the questionnaires to Portuguese police without analysing them themselves.
Even if they did consider the content, they may not have realised the relevance without access to all of the material.
The information should have been recognised as of great relevance by the Portuguese police.

snip <<<<
Or in other words: "nothing to do with us pal it were Johnny Foreigner what was less than diligent"   %&5%£

Quite. I have no idea if the information was ever given to LP or if they ever passed it to the PJ. However, the PJ didn't rate Jane Tanner's evidence for two reasons; she wasn't seen by the two men she allegedly passed and her description of the man she saw got more detailed over time. Consequently, the PJ would have been very happy to have this info and would have chased it up diligently.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 04:03:43 PM
It's possible that LP lost it, just as it's possible it was just passed on with whatever else came in. The PJ weren't interested in Tannerman anyway, once Jane couldn't identify the person as Murat. They then seem to have decided she'd made it up.

They were interested in Smithman, but that wasn't Murat either. And then they only appear to have pricked up their ears when Martin thought it might have been Gerry.

Did they ever actually check the night crèche records? There are no sheets in the files, yet there are Tapas reservations, the day crèche ones and accommodation bookings.

If it is accurate that crècheman contacted LP, then it wasn't the PJ requesting LP to follow up on records they'd obtained. If they had got the records (and they're simply not in the accessible files), and had asked LP to follow up and contact then, there's no correspondence to that effect.

The GNR and the PJ did ask a number of people whether they'd seen a man carrying a child or anything suspicious, but I can't see anything to indicate that the PJ had been asking if they themselves or someone they knew had carried their own child home that night.

Before asking if the PJ checked the night creche records you first need to establish that they existed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 26, 2015, 04:10:44 PM
Quite. I have no idea if the information was ever given to LP or if they ever passed it to the PJ. However, the PJ didn't rate Jane Tanner's evidence for two reasons; she wasn't seen by the two men she allegedly passed and her description of the man she saw got more detailed over time. Consequently, the PJ would have been very happy to have this info and would have chased it up diligently.

A position seemingly supported by probably the best police force in the world.
Sorry! but it's mantra time again  @)(++(*
"It's never been the same since that nice DCI Redwood fragged Tannerman the Abductor".
Wait for it wait for it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 04:49:47 PM
A position seemingly supported by probably the best police force in the world.
Sorry! but it's mantra time again  @)(++(*
"It's never been the same since that nice DCI Redwood fragged Tannerman the Abductor".
Wait for it wait for it.

There are those who think nice DCI Redwood may have got it wrong. Just like the 'Drs McCann' they prefer Tannerman. I wonder why? Perhaps because nasty Mr Amaral favoured Smithman.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 26, 2015, 04:55:22 PM
There are those who think nice DCI Redwood may have got it wrong. Just like the 'Drs McCann' they prefer Tannerman. I wonder why? Perhaps because nasty Mr Amaral favoured Smithman.

Who it has to be said was a person of interest who needed to be identified according to that same nice DCI Redwood formerly of "probably the best police force in the world".
It would seem he hasn't come forward yet or The Yard are keeping shtum about it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 05:32:43 PM
Who it has to be said was a person of interest who needed to be identified according to that same nice DCI Redwood formerly of "probably the police force in the world".
It would seem he hasn't come forward yet or The Yard are keeping shtum about it.

You do realise we're off topic don't you? Never mind, I think everyone else is having Sunday tea. I wonder who he could be? He can't be another innocent Dad from the night creche coz I assume nice ex - DCI Redwood found all eight families who were using it that night. He didn't look like any of the other e-fits either.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2015, 05:40:14 PM

Okay, back On Topic or the inevitable will occur.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2015, 05:57:54 PM
Amaral's exact theory (which I think is wrong) has discovery in the last check about 10.00pm at location = sofa lounge. Then at 10.05pm he has location = Rua 25 Abril.
His theory provides no time and no reason to unnecessary sandwich another location = cupboard other bedroom in between. And what would be the point of that?

Amaral believes the cadaver was moved from behind the sofa and hidden out of sight in the wardrobe so why he said Kate found the cadaver at that time is confusing to say the least. You would hide something if you thought it may be seen by others. You don't hide a cadaver there when people are opening wardrobes and frantically looking for a missing child. Any cadaver would be found so that puts the timeline back for that theory to work. The only credible solution for that theory is two separate moves - one out of 5A and a second later move to further away i.e. Smithman sighting.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 06:13:32 PM
Okay, back On Topic or the inevitable will occur.

Hi Eleanor, thought you'd gone somewhere ha ha.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 26, 2015, 06:22:04 PM
Hi Eleanor, thought you'd gone somewhere ha ha.

No chance.  I'm a 24/7 sort of person.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 06:31:04 PM
Amaral believes the cadaver was moved from behind the sofa and hidden out of sight in the wardrobe so why he said Kate found the cadaver at that time is confusing to say the least. You would hide something if you thought it may be seen by others. You don't hide a cadaver there when people are opening wardrobes and frantically looking for a missing child. Any cadaver would be found so that puts the timeline back for that theory to work. The only credible solution for that theory is two separate moves - one out of 5A and a second later move to further away i.e. Smithman sighting.

It will have been puzzling to anyone, tryng to piece together all the evidence gathered. And, as far as I know, all he has insisted on was a belief that there was no abductor. The rest  was hypothesising., ie the how, when and where of the child's demise. Remember, the Portuguese police had not even heard of cadaver dogs, let alone use them, before this case. (source was a PJ spokesman, whose name escapes me-the one who had said they are not suspects and days later said they were)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2015, 06:49:38 PM
It will have been puzzling to anyone, tryng to piece together all the evidence gathered. And, as far as I know, all he has insisted on was a belief that there was no abductor. The rest  was hypothesising., ie the how, when and where of the child's demise. Remember, the Portuguese police had not even heard of cadaver dogs, let alone use them, before this case. (source was a PJ spokesman, whose name escapes me-the one who had said they are not suspects and days later said they were)

They were suspects to the PJ but not officially. Adrian Prout was not officially a suspect when they charged him. Eddie's alert changed that case it was after the Madeleine McCann one.

28 January 2009
The husband of a missing Gloucestershire woman is no longer suspected of her murder, police have confirmed.
Kate Prout, 56, disappeared on 5 November 2007 from her farm at Redmarley in the Forest of Dean.
Adrian Prout, 46, was arrested that month on suspicion of her murder. He was arrested again in February 2008.
He has not been charged with any offence. He was due to answer police bail on Friday but has been released.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/7856110.stm

10 Mar 2009
Adrian Prout, the husband of retired teacher Kate Prout, who disappeared 16 months ago from her 200-acre farm in Redmarley D'Abitot, Gloucestershire, has been charged with her murder.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4967338/Farmer-charged-with-murder-of-missing-wife-Kate-Prout.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 07:20:26 PM
Yes, they were, especially after the dogs were brought in, and in mid August 2007 it was said there is evidence somethng may have happened to the child inside the apartment but that the parents were not suspects.

I remembered his name now,Olegario Sousa

They were not made suspects till nearly a month later...proof I would have thought that the PJ were not really gunning for them or seeking to "frame" but just following evidence as they saw it

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 26, 2015, 07:26:21 PM
Before asking if the PJ checked the night creche records you first need to establish that they existed.
Ahhh....

Good to be able to agree with you.


Did they actually exist?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2015, 07:26:58 PM
It will have been puzzling to anyone, tryng to piece together all the evidence gathered. And, as far as I know, all he has insisted on was a belief that there was no abductor. The rest  was hypothesising., ie the how, when and where of the child's demise. Remember, the Portuguese police had not even heard of cadaver dogs, let alone use them, before this case. (source was a PJ spokesman, whose name escapes me-the one who had said they are not suspects and days later said they were)

There is really no excuse for not making oneself familiar with with workplace instruments, particularly if they are to be used as an integral part of one's job.

The Rebelo investigation probably put the correct interpretation on the expert advice given by the handler ...


" Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed.

The signals of an alert are only just that.

Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc." MARTIN GRIME: ROGATORY STATEMENT:03-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 21 to 25


That certainly was clear enough at the time; unfortunately Mr Amaral just didn't understand it at the time or perhaps it wasn't explained to him as succinctly as it was laid out in the rog.

The Rebelo investigation didn't just run with the advertising blurb ... they wanted to know how the mechanism actually worked ... it seems they were able to accomplish that which led in due course to the release of the Drs McCann from their arguido status and unfortunately the shelving of the investigation into Madeleine's case.

Quote
PJ admits innocence of the McCann couple

They also doubt that the dogs that were used by the British police could have detected cadaver odour.

If the child did, in fact, die in the bedroom, was the short period that she stayed there, enough for odours to be released?

What biological transformations occur during the first hour after death?

These are the questions that they are looking for answers to.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?53176-Portuguese-Press-(Translations)-No-Discussion/page12
Unquote
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 07:35:22 PM
There is really no excuse for not making oneself familiar with with workplace instruments, particularly if they are to be used as an integral part of one's job.

The Rebelo investigation probably put the correct interpretation on the expert advice given by the handler ...


" Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed.

The signals of an alert are only just that.

Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc." MARTIN GRIME: ROGATORY STATEMENT:03-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 21 to 25


That certainly was clear enough at the time; unfortunately Mr Amaral just didn't understand it at the time or perhaps it wasn't explained to him as succinctly as it was laid out in the rog.

The Rebelo investigation didn't just run with the advertising blurb ... they wanted to know how the mechanism actually worked ... it seems they were able to accomplish that which led in due course to the release of the Drs McCann from their arguido status and unfortunately the shelving of the investigation into Madeleine's case.

Quote
PJ admits innocence of the McCann couple

They also doubt that the dogs that were used by the British police could have detected cadaver odour.

If the child did, in fact, die in the bedroom, was the short period that she stayed there, enough for odours to be released?

What biological transformations occur during the first hour after death?

These are the questions that they are looking for answers to.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?53176-Portuguese-Press-(Translations)-No-Discussion/page12
Unquote

Who translated that? Are you sure it's correct?  8(>((
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 07:42:32 PM
There is really no excuse for not making oneself familiar with with workplace instruments, particularly if they are to be used as an integral part of one's job.

The Rebelo investigation probably put the correct interpretation on the expert advice given by the handler ...


" Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed.

The signals of an alert are only just that.

Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc." MARTIN GRIME: ROGATORY STATEMENT:03-CARTAS ROGATORIA 5 Pages 21 to 25


That certainly was clear enough at the time; unfortunately Mr Amaral just didn't understand it at the time or perhaps it wasn't explained to him as succinctly as it was laid out in the rog.

The Rebelo investigation didn't just run with the advertising blurb ... they wanted to know how the mechanism actually worked ... it seems they were able to accomplish that which led in due course to the release of the Drs McCann from their arguido status and unfortunately the shelving of the investigation into Madeleine's case.

Quote
PJ admits innocence of the McCann couple

They also doubt that the dogs that were used by the British police could have detected cadaver odour.

If the child did, in fact, die in the bedroom, was the short period that she stayed there, enough for odours to be released?

What biological transformations occur during the first hour after death?

These are the questions that they are looking for answers to.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?53176-Portuguese-Press-(Translations)-No-Discussion/page12
Unquote

Any seasoned policeman or woman would take the dog alert as significant and not just "open to interpretation".
There would be no use using cadaver dogs if you could interpret their alerts as coming possibly from pizza or people having BO!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2015, 08:10:59 PM
Any seasoned policeman or woman would take the dog alert as significant and not just "open to interpretation".
There would be no use using cadaver dogs if you could interpret their alerts as coming possibly from pizza or people having BO!

How do you know what any seasoned policeman would think...the alerts indicate nothing and are evidence of nothing...at least that is what Grime said
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 08:15:00 PM
How do you know what any seasoned policeman would think...the alerts indicate nothing and are evidence of nothing...at least that is what Grime said

You better write to all police forces worldwide who use cadaver dogs and let them know their alerts mean nothng, might save them some time energy and money

And please don't twist Grime's words to suit
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 08:16:39 PM
Ahhh....

Good to be able to agree with you.


Did they actually exist?

Eek! Something we agree on. They should have, as there should have been contact info like with the day creches. I've read one witness statement saying they were contacted at night because their child cried, but can't remember who it was at the moment. Unless the PJ had them and didn't include them in the files I can't imagine Mark Warner keeping them for years until SY came along.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2015, 08:22:55 PM
You better write to all police forces worldwide who use cadaver dogs and let them know their alerts mean nothng, might save them some time energy and money

And please don't twist Grime's words to suit

if the alerts had any value they would be admissible as evidence ...grime has made it clear that the alerts themselves are of no value without corroboration. the dogs are used world wide to find evidence...if they never found any ...as in this case..they would not be used
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 08:33:15 PM
if the alerts had any value they would be admissible as evidence ...grime has made it clear that the alerts themselves are of no value without corroboration. the dogs are used world wide to find evidence...if they never found any ...as in this case..they would not be used

Eddie alerted in the Prout case and found nothing. I assume they brought him in because they suspected Prout. The police didn't wander off saying 'no body, no evidence, he didn't do it' though. They continued to gather circumstantial evidence and got a conviction with it. I have no way of knowing what they thought about Eddie's alert, but I imagine they bore it in mind.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2015, 08:41:53 PM
Eddie alerted in the Prout case and found nothing. I assume they brought him in because they suspected Prout. The police didn't wander off saying 'no body, no evidence, he didn't do it' though. They continued to gather circumstantial evidence and got a conviction with it. I have no way of knowing what they thought about Eddie's alert, but I imagine they bore it in mind.

The dogs do not prove Maddie died in the apartment...that's what amaral said and what he said is wrong
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 08:42:43 PM
if the alerts had any value they would be admissible as evidence ...grime has made it clear that the alerts themselves are of no value without corroboration. the dogs are used world wide to find evidence...if they never found any ...as in this case..they would not be used
No, your problem is you have to decide why police use cadaver dogs and it's not just in case they find a body, anyone can do that
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 26, 2015, 08:45:57 PM
if the alerts had any value they would be admissible as evidence ...grime has made it clear that the alerts themselves are of no value without corroboration. the dogs are used world wide to find evidence...if they never found any ...as in this case..they would not be used

Eddie's alert wasn't used in the Prout case but it showed them they were on the right path.


BREAKING: KSP has confirmed that the body of Laynee Wallace has been found in a well in Barren County.

The body is being taken to Louisville for an autopsy to ensure that it's Laynee.

The place Laynee Wallace was found was only a few miles from where she was living with her mother and Anthony Barbour.

Police say the property where the 2 year old was found belongs to the Barbour family.

This morning Anthony Barbour woke up in the hospital, but Tuesday night it will be his first night of many behind bars because he's facing multiple felonies.

Anthony Barbour is being charged with kidnapping and burglary but nothing relating to the death of Laynee Wallace one day after her body was found in a well in Barren County.

Police tell us that an autopsy has been completed and we could learn the results as early as Tuesday night. Once it's been released more charges could be added for Barbour.

We don't exactly know how Laynee's body ended up where it did, or how she died yet, but the woman who says Barbour held her against her will Monday afternoon says when they spoke, he told her his side of the story.

"She had fallen. She had an accident. He said she accidentally fell," said the woman.

http://www.wbko.com/home/headlines/Police-Still-Searching-For-Missing-Monroe-County-Two-Year-Old-304499851.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2015, 08:49:04 PM
No, your problem is you have to decide why police use cadaver dogs and it's not just in case they find a body, anyone can do that

they are used to find evidence...bodies...body parts. Without finding evidence there alerts are of no use
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2015, 08:50:54 PM
This is what grime said...

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent
 contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
 alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.


Not is alerting..but  is possibly alerting...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 26, 2015, 08:58:28 PM
This is what grime said...

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to cadaver scent
 contamination. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
 alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.


Not is alerting..but  is possibly alerting...

He is a police officer and he knows the law. He is stating the legal position. When he uses the word 'possible' he isn't referring to the alert, (we all know Eddie alerted, after all, and Grime mentions 'this alert', so no doubts about that) he is referring to the reason for the alert; possibly cadaver scent contamination.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 09:01:57 PM
they are used to find evidence...bodies...body parts. Without finding evidence there alerts are of no use

No...they alert to remnant scent as well, there may be no physical evidence for it, but its still evidence
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 26, 2015, 09:44:12 PM
He is a police officer and he knows the law. He is stating the legal position. When he uses the word 'possible' he isn't referring to the alert, (we all know Eddie alerted, after all, and Grime mentions 'this alert', so no doubts about that) he is referring to the reason for the alert; possibly cadaver scent contamination.

That's right...the alert is possibly to cadaver scent contamination..... Therefore not definitely
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 26, 2015, 09:47:51 PM
if the alerts had any value they would be admissible as evidence ...grime has made it clear that the alerts themselves are of no value without corroboration. the dogs are used world wide to find evidence...if they never found any ...as in this case..they would not be used

According to the former head of the Portuguese police laboratory there would have been no point in trying to progress the case to court because of a lack of evidence.

Had any evidence ever existed it was rendered  irretrievably corrupted and useless. 
The people who have been most let down by these circumstances are Madeleine McCann and her parents ... if any evidence of an intruder had existed mismanagement of the scene ensured it was lost forever.

The investigation knew there was not sufficient evidence to charge the Drs McCann with any crime.  Which is why they tried to railroad them by making them arguidos and putting them under intolerable pressure.

If Eddie and Keela were ever going to be of any use, it would have been in the early stages and not after a period when the apartment had been let out to other families ... and when the PJ had run out of ideas and other indicators of the guilt they attributed to Madeleine's parents.


Madeleine: Forensics expert says inquiry is 'complete waste' because of police blunders at apartment
By VANESSA ALLEN
Last updated at 09:49 18 December 2007

Defence lawyers would demolish scientific evidence in the case because of the wholesale contamination of forensics samples, the former head of the Portuguese police laboratory claimed.

Jose Manuel Anes said the seven-month police inquiry amounted to a complete waste of time and money.

"Huge amounts of money were spent but if, in the first hours, the due precautions for the preservation of the crime scene were not taken, all this hard work goes down the drain," he said.

"We can spend rivers of money which will all go down the drain if the crime scene is not properly isolated."

Portuguese police failed to seal off the McCann family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz immediately after the parents reported her abduction, meaning up to 50 people were free to tramp through the flat, destroying potentially vital evidence.

Mr Anes's damning analysis of the investigation has inspired "alarm" in Kate and Gerry McCann who still hope to learn what happened to their daughter on the night of May 3.

Their spokesman Clarence Mitchell said: "It is alarming to hear that Mr Anes has this view.

"All we want, and have done throughout, is to ensure the operational police side of this has been done in an effective and efficient manner as possible."

Microscopic traces of blood were missed for three months, until British sniffer dogs detected them, and police failed to don protective forensics suits, meaning their fingerprints and bootmarks contaminated the crime scene.

In an interview for the book The McCanns' Guilt, written by a Portuguese journalist, Mr Anes said state-of-the-art tests were rendered useless if they were performed on contaminated samples.

The 62-year-old added: "As the technology for lab analysis becomes increasingly sensitive, the need not to contaminate the crime scene also increases.

"Any evidence left behind by an investigator, whatever it may be, can irreparably contaminate a sample gathered at the crime scene."

Mr Anes said detectives were too influenced by the McCanns' insistence their daughter was abducted.

He also said Portuguese forces should learn lessons from the British police, who train all officers to seal off crime scenes.

"I am utterly convinced that - unless some new, concrete evidence suddenly emerges - I fear the case will never reach trial," he added.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-503113/Madeleine-Forensics-expert-says-inquiry-complete-waste-police-blunders-apartment.html#ixzz3h1y5YZis

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 26, 2015, 09:54:52 PM
yawn
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 26, 2015, 11:09:16 PM
Eek! Something we agree on. They should have, as there should have been contact info like with the day creches. I've read one witness statement saying they were contacted at night because their child cried, but can't remember who it was at the moment. Unless the PJ had them and didn't include them in the files I can't imagine Mark Warner keeping them for years until SY came along.

And neither can I.

Such transiant things as the occasional evening at the creche could even have had all the details and signatures written on a notepad.   To be screwed up and thrown away once all the children had been collected, signed for and any charges had been paid.


Now please remind me.  Was the evening creche free?
If so, once all the children had been collected and signed for, it is quite likely that the list would have been scrapped IMO



But once again, we dont know.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2015, 02:42:27 AM
And neither can I.

Such transiant things as the occasional evening at the creche could even have had all the details and signatures written on a notepad.   To be screwed up and thrown away once all the children had been collected, signed for and any charges had been paid.
Now please remind me.  Was the evening creche free?
If so, once all the children had been collected and signed for, it is quite likely that the list would have been scrapped IMO
But once again, we dont know.
Yes the evening creche was free.
And professional in-apartment evening childcare was available for 15 euros an hour.
And the apartment was self-catering with full kitchen.
And the Tapas restaurant offered a takeaway service.
Four safe options IFLG and BP failed to mention, and any of them would have resulted in this dog thread never existing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 07:35:08 AM
Yes the evening creche was free.
And professional in-apartment evening childcare was available for 15 euros an hour.
And the apartment was self-catering with full kitchen.
And the Tapas restaurant offered a takeaway service.
Four safe options IFLG and BP failed to mention, and any of them would have resulted in this dog thread never existing.
Number five, kids were allowed in the Tapas Restaraunt. But leaving them alone  in an insecure apartment  on the corner of a main street was considered the best and safest option for some reason. "We've all done it" after all, some say, but adding, not me personally. They were two and three not nine or ten!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 07:46:01 AM
No...they alert to remnant scent as well, there may be no physical evidence for it, but its still evidence

no the alerts are not evidence...Grime has made that clear...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 07:47:57 AM
Number five, kids were allowed in the Tapas Restaraunt. But leaving them alone  in an insecure apartment  on the corner of a main street was considered the best and safest option for some reason. "We've all done it" after all, some say, but adding, not me personally. They were two and three not nine or ten!

you are wrong yet again...I have said on several occasions that I have done exactly the same as the McCcanns...25 yrs ago..
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 07:50:47 AM
no the alerts are not evidence...Grime has made that clear...

They are evidence. Evidence of a cadaver dog alerting to cadaverscent which it has been trained for. Quite the opposite to them meaning nothing at all as you asserted before. If dog alerts mean nothing they wouldnt be used. But please yourself.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 07:51:46 AM
you are wrong yet again...I have said on several occasions that I have done exactly the same as the McCcanns...25 yrs ago..
In a small minority then,thats OK
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 07:52:51 AM
So to summarise....

According to Grime...

The alerts are not evidence..
The alerts are possibly to cadaver odour
The alerts are suggestive of cadaver odour
The alerts could be due to contamination

According to SY..the PJ and amaral's lawyer...maddie may still be alive
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 07:53:50 AM
They are evidence. Evidence of a cadaver dog alerting to cadaverscent which it has been trained for. Quite the opposite to them meaning nothing at all as you asserted before. If dog alerts mean nothing they wouldnt be used. But please yourself.

they are not evidence according to Grime...they are not evidence of a dog alerting to cadaver according to Grime
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 07:54:21 AM
In a small minority then,thats OK

just pointing out that what you said was wrong
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 27, 2015, 07:57:47 AM
you are wrong yet again...I have said on several occasions that I have done exactly the same as the McCcanns...25 yrs ago..

Are you saying you left three children under five sleeping in an unlocked apartment in another country while you went out for dinner for two to three hours?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 07:58:32 AM
So to summarise....

According to Grime...

The alerts are not evidence..
The alerts are possibly to cadaver odour
The alerts are suggestive of cadaver odour
The alerts could be due to contamination

According to SY..the PJ and amaral's lawyer...maddie may still be alive

Points three and four say it all, ie, yes, cadaver dogs alert to cadaver odour
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 08:02:16 AM
Points three and four say it all, ie, yes, cadaver dogs alert to cadaver odour

they do....they also alert to blood..the alerts to not prove that abody was ever present at that site..

what you don't understand is that the alerts suggest cadaver odour...they do not confirm it...according to Grime
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 08:03:08 AM
just pointing out that what you said was wrong

It is a fact many journalists have stated "we've all done it" though "not me personally" which is an oxymoron at best
If you decided to leave your babies alone, whilst going out, your problem, and a risk you took, whether my post was right or wrong in your  eyes!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 08:06:15 AM
they do....they also alert to blood..the alerts to not prove that abody was ever present at that site..

what you don't understand is that the alerts suggest cadaver odour...they do not confirm it...according to Grime
You cant prove a remnant cadaver scent alert
The arguments about alledged blood alerts by cadaver dog  in this case have not been proven, oh hello, because its impossible
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 08:12:26 AM
It is a fact many journalists have stated "we've all done it" though "not me personally" which is an oxymoron at best
If you decided to leave your babies alone, whilst going out, your problem, and a risk you took, whether my post was right or wrong in your  eyes!

never seen...not me personally...reckon you are making it up...prove me wrong with a quote
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 27, 2015, 08:12:52 AM
In a small minority then,thats OK

Add me to that list.  I did the same.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 08:13:28 AM
Are you saying you left three children under five sleeping in an unlocked apartment in another country while you went out for dinner for two to three hours?

get back on topic
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 08:15:00 AM
You cant prove a remnant cadaver scent alert
The arguments about alledged blood alerts by cadaver dog  in this case have not been proven, oh hello, because its impossible

so the remnant scent cannot be proved...that's the whole point...we do not know if it is factual or not...yet amaral has said he can prove maddie died in the apartment based on remnant scent..he can't
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 08:21:16 AM
never seen...not me personally...reckon you are making it up...prove me wrong with a quote

Your reckoning is often wrong, why on earth would I "make anything up"

You will have your quote, then that might shut you up.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 08:23:25 AM
Your reckoning is often wrong, why on earth would I "make anything up"

You will have your quote, then that might shut you up.

I doubt there will be any quote..it doesn't exist...perhaps if you cannot supply the quote...you should shut up
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2015, 08:24:46 AM
As I said the other day, the dogs alerted to a body or they didn't.

Since the dogs clearly worried thew mccanns and the lack of evidence of anything else, well to use one of Sadie's words, they are POINTERS.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 08:26:38 AM
As I said the other day, the dogs alerted to a body or they didn't.

Since the dogs clearly worried thew mccanns and the lack of evidence of anything else, well to use one of Sadie's words, they are POINTERS.

that's right... there may have been a body...or there might not...so the alerts tell us nothing
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 08:28:38 AM
no wonder the alerts are not admissible...can you imagine grime in court...

There might have been a body there...or there might not.... @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 27, 2015, 08:28:52 AM
get back on topic

Sorry, sorry.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 08:35:45 AM
so the remnant scent cannot be proved...that's the whole point...we do not know if it is factual or not...yet amaral has said he can prove maddie died in the apartment based on remnant scent..he can't
No, the point is you can't have proof if proof isn't possible, with remnant scent on it's own,doesn't mean the cadaver dog alert "means nothng"
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 08:39:44 AM
I doubt there will be any quote..it doesn't exist...perhaps if you cannot supply the quote...you should shut up
Lorraine Kelly , Kate Garraway and Fiona Phillips from GMTV has said "we've all done it" then qualified it with " I wouldn't personally" do it
Most people remember this,not  my problem if you don't or wish to accuse me of "making it up"

PS If I have time I will try and fish videos out from youtube IF they still exist


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 27, 2015, 08:45:35 AM
As I said the other day, the dogs alerted to a body or they didn't.

Since the dogs clearly worried thew mccanns and the lack of evidence of anything else, well to use one of Sadie's words, they are POINTERS.

No they weren't Pointers Stephen - they were Spaniels.

(sorry I'll get me coat) :-)


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2015, 08:47:52 AM
that's right... there may have been a body...or there might not...so the alerts tell us nothing

There is nothing else.

Likewise did the dogs alert anywhere else other than where the mccanns had been ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 08:48:37 AM
No they weren't Pointers Stephen - they were Spaniels.

(sorry I'll get me coat) :-)

 @)(++(*

good one B
nice to have a bit of humour sometimes in this depressing board
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2015, 08:52:29 AM
No they weren't Pointers Stephen - they were Spaniels.

(sorry I'll get me coat) :-)

 8((()*/ 8@??)( 8@??)(
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 27, 2015, 08:58:14 AM
get back on topic

Thought not.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 27, 2015, 09:06:59 AM
@)(++(*

good one B
nice to have a bit of humour sometimes in this depressing board

Ty mercury.      I'm sorry you find the board depressing - I think it's a fantastic forum - as it's the only one I know of where (thanks to the mods)  both 'sides' can debate their very different opinions with one-another.       

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 09:28:01 AM
Ty mercury.      I'm sorry you find the board depressing - I think it's a fantastic forum - as it's the only one I know of where (thanks to the mods)  both 'sides' can debate their very different opinions with one-another.     

depressing as in the subject matter
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 09:32:51 AM
Lorraine Kelly , Kate Garraway and Fiona Phillips from GMTV has said "we've all done it" then qualified it with " I wouldn't personally" do it
Most people remember this,not  my problem if you don't or wish to accuse me of "making it up"

PS If I have time I will try and fish videos out from youtube IF they still exist

so you cannot supply an exact quote
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 09:33:49 AM
No, the point is you can't have proof if proof isn't possible, with remnant scent on it's own,doesn't mean the cadaver dog alert "means nothng"

I said that that the existence of remnant scent cannot be proven
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 09:36:06 AM
so you cannot supply an exact quote
Not at the mo so was "obviously making it up"... just for fun
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 09:37:03 AM
I said that that the existence of remnant scent cannot be proven

No it was me who said that, your mantra is the dog alerts mean nothing
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 27, 2015, 09:37:47 AM
depressing as in the subject matter

Oh right.  OK.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2015, 09:39:18 AM
so you cannot supply an exact quote

So dave, how many people have done what the mccanns did ?

I give credit to Eleanor for admitting to doing it.

One of my students parents left their young son in a hotel room which was unlocked in Tenarife about 15 years ago. He got out (he was 3 years old at the time). The rest of the family were out to dinner, but fortunately for them, other people recognized their son and brought him back after he was wondering down a local road. They were lucky.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2015, 09:40:30 AM
your usual ad hominem attack

Can you back up all the claims you have made ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2015, 09:41:35 AM
So dave, how many people have done what the mccanns did ?

I give credit to Eleanor for admitting to doing it.

One of my students parents left their young son in a hotel room which was unlocked in Tenarife about 15 years ago. He got out (he was 3 years old at the time). The rest of the family were out to dinner, but fortunately for them, other people recognized their son and brought him back after he was wondering down a local road. They were lucky.

What's that got to do with 'Amaral and the dogs'?    Another opportunity for you to repeat the 'left the children' AGAIN Stephen.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2015, 09:45:07 AM
In my opinion,   Eddie smelt an aroma  that could have been from anything left on the floor after one of the people who stayed there after the McCann's.     Eddie was called back so many times in my opinion he barked at the smell because he wanted to end the exercise.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 09:51:33 AM
In my opinion,   Eddie smelt an aroma  that could have been from anything left on the floor after one of the people who stayed there after the McCann's.     Eddie was called back so many times in my opinion he barked at the smell because he wanted to end the exercise.
So you think the dog got fed up, and just wanted his tennis ball or biscuit quick, and alerted to "anythng" on the floor, maybe it was a sweaty flip flop? from a later holiday maker, but no chance the possibility of the Mccanns child, interesting sort of blanket denial

 @)(++(*

@ Benice no problems, I did say before, but got deleted
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: carlymichelle on July 27, 2015, 09:54:15 AM
What's that got to do with 'Amaral and the dogs'?    Another opportunity for you to repeat the 'left the children' AGAIN Stephen.
well they did didnt they??
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2015, 10:00:17 AM
In my opinion,   Eddie smelt an aroma  that could have been from anything left on the floor after one of the people who stayed there after the McCann's.     Eddie was called back so many times in my opinion he barked at the smell because he wanted to end the exercise.


Have you researched that ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 27, 2015, 10:11:45 AM
The whole question of dog-alerts is just too fraught with unanswered questions:

Why could Eddie detect no scent on clothing in the villa he (apparently!) could (exactly the same clothing!) in the gym?

Was cuddle-cat an error of commission?

Or an error of omission?

Why were the 'inspections' of all other holiday apartments whistle-stop; yet the inspection of apartment 5a long-drawn out and protracted?

Why did Mark Harrison, in his report, expressly disavow UK involvement in those inspections he had nothing to do with (the places Madeleine never lived in or went near).

And so on ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 10:18:55 AM
well they did didnt they??

do you understand what off topic means
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 10:20:11 AM
No it was me who said that, your mantra is the dog alerts mean nothing

without corroboration they mean nothing
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 10:21:36 AM
Can you back up all the claims you have made ?

off topic ad hominem attack
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 27, 2015, 10:24:26 AM
The whole question of dog-alerts is just too fraught with unanswered questions:

Why could Eddie detect no scent on clothing in the villa he (apparently!) could (exactly the same clothing!) in the gym?

Was cuddle-cat an error of commission?

Or an error of omission?

Why were the 'inspections' of all other holiday apartments whistle-stop; yet the inspection of apartment 5a long-drawn out and protracted?

Why did Mark Harrison, in his report, expressly disavow UK involvement in those inspections he had nothing to do with (the places Madeleine never lived in or went near).

And so on ....

You could add to that:

Why did Martin Grime wear head to toe protective clothing during the car search,  but only wore gloves during the search of the apartments? 

As you say there are many unanswered questions re the dogs - but although I regard MG as an excellent dog trainer,  unlike some - I have not ruled him out of the human race when it comes to possible human error - and neither does he apparently.

Quote
Asked about the ‘human remains’ found by Eddie that turned out to be coconut, Grime said bizarrely: ‘People aren’t right 100 per cent of the time. Otherwise they wouldn’t be human.’
Unquote


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 27, 2015, 10:32:36 AM
You could add to that:

Why did Martin Grime wear head to toe protective clothing during the car search,  but only wore gloves during the search of the apartments? 

As you say there are many unanswered questions re the dogs - but although I regard MG as an excellent dog trainer,  unlike some - I have not ruled him out of the human race when it comes to possible human error - and neither does he apparently.

Quote
Asked about the ‘human remains’ found by Eddie that turned out to be coconut, Grime said bizarrely: ‘People aren’t right 100 per cent of the time. Otherwise they wouldn’t be human.’
Unquote

In response to the question I underline, guess which video Grime used to promote himself when he enrolled for the gig at Haut de la Garenne, Jersey ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2015, 10:35:15 AM
In response to the question I underline, guess which video Grime used to promote himself when he enrolled for the gig at Haut de la Garenne, Jersey ....

So ferryman, do you accept the dog might or might not have alerted to a body ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 10:35:26 AM
without corroboration they mean nothing
No, without corroboration,which can't exist for remnant scent on it's own, they just  mean uncorroborated but not meaningless
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 27, 2015, 10:36:36 AM
So ferryman, do you accept the dog might or might not have alerted to a body ?

There was no body.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2015, 10:50:13 AM
There was no body.

You don't know that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 10:59:24 AM
No, without corroboration,which can't exist for remnant scent on it's own, they just  mean uncorroborated but not meaningless

so...then tell us what they mean...try reading Stephen's post..he seems to undestand
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2015, 11:05:53 AM
So you think the dog got fed up, and just wanted his tennis ball or biscuit quick, and alerted to "anythng" on the floor, maybe it was a sweaty flip flop? from a later holiday maker, but no chance the possibility of the Mccanns child, interesting sort of blanket denial

 @)(++(*

@ Benice no problems, I did say before, but got deleted

If you read up about these dogs you will find that yes they will do exactly that.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 11:36:26 AM
so...then tell us what they mean...try reading Stephen's post..he seems to undestand

They mean that a cadaver dog alerted to what he had been trained to, ie cadaver odour, so not "nothing"

If you read up about these dogs you will find that yes they will do exactly that.
Oh, right, I find that hard to believe. If true it makes a mockery of so much.So, no, I probably won't  believe it. Never even read anything to say a dog got tired/fed up so just barked.

ETA re your post below, Eddie wasn't deployed in 5A for hours anyway. If your claim is true, he would be barking at the end of that day's shift rather than at the start (which was 5A)

I'd appreciate a link when you get a spare minute anyway,thanks
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2015, 11:37:04 AM
So you think the dog got fed up, and just wanted his tennis ball or biscuit quick, and alerted to "anythng" on the floor, maybe it was a sweaty flip flop? from a later holiday maker, but no chance the possibility of the Mccanns child, interesting sort of blanket denial

 @)(++(*

@ Benice no problems, I did say before, but got deleted

Snipped from an article about cadaver dogs -    5) A severely fatigued dog can inadvertently be pressured to give a false alert because it wants to terminate the search in order to rest. Therefore, it is important to maintain the dog at a high level of physical fitness so that it may work for multiple hours with only brief rest periods.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2015, 11:42:32 AM
mercury you may also be interested in this snipped from the same article -   

Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.


As Eddie was trained as a rescue dog at first,   he would have been trained to find live human beings,  he was then trained as a cadaver dog.    They say that a cadaver dog should not be cross trained.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 27, 2015, 11:49:02 AM
Mark Harrison's summary of all searches:

The timeline of these searches was as follows:
 
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
 
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
 
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
 
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
 
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
 
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
 
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.


Harrison acknowledged UK input only in those searches he recommended, the holiday apartments, areas in and around PdL and the Murats' place.

Both inspections at the villa and at the gym he summarises as PJ exercises.

And while Harrison did recommend  an inspection of vehicles, only 2 (of 3!) vehicles he recommended be inspected made the final line-up of 10.

Harrison gives no clue who took part in that exercise.

Why not?

ETA: Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct inspections in vehicles and buildings ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on July 27, 2015, 01:18:51 PM
They mean that a cadaver dog alerted to what he had been trained to, ie cadaver odour, so not "nothing"
Oh, right, I find that hard to believe. If true it makes a mockery of so much.So, no, I probably won't  believe it. Never even read anything to say a dog got tired/fed up so just barked.

ETA re your post below, Eddie wasn't deployed in 5A for hours anyway. If your claim is true, he would be barking at the end of that day's shift rather than at the start (which was 5A)

I'd appreciate a link when you get a spare minute anyway,thanks


Here is the link to the article -  http://csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

In my opinion Eddie looked hot he was panting a lot,  he was called back numerous times.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2015, 01:19:27 PM
I can substantiate very claim I have made...where do you want to start

Two requests were deleted. &%+((£

Now can you substantiate that no child has died from a fall of a couch, straight after or after a delay, onto a concrete floor ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 01:36:59 PM
Two requests were deleted. &%+((£

Now can you substantiate that no child has died from a fall of a couch, straight after or after a delay, onto a concrete floor ?

I have replied and my reply was deleted...take it up with admin
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 27, 2015, 02:21:23 PM
Here is another detail that has always intrigued me, from the inspection in the gym:

1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.

2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result.
- At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.


A prior inspection of the gym by both dogs with no odour detected.

Then an inspection of clothing that (apparently) resulted in detection of odour on certain clothing.

Except that, there was no gap between the prior inspection of the premises and the inspection of the clothing, tending to suggest that the clothes were already laid out before the inspection of the premises.

So why was no odour detected during the inspection of the premises?

And what was the point of the inspection of the premises?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 03:27:20 PM
Here is another detail that has always intrigued me, from the inspection in the gym:

1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.

2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result.
- At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.


A prior inspection of the gym by both dogs with no odour detected.

Then an inspection of clothing that (apparently) resulted in detection of odour on certain clothing.

Except that, there was no gap between the prior inspection of the premises and the inspection of the clothing, tending to suggest that the clothes were already laid out before the inspection of the premises.



So why was no odour detected during the inspection of the premises?

And what was the point of the inspection of the premises?

Had there been any coconuts in the box previously
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2015, 04:01:46 PM
Had there been any coconuts in the box previously
Or was the cardboard box made in part of coconut fibre?
Or were all the alerts due to transfer from a coir doormat?
Or was a coconut dropped by a migrating swallow and rolled into the underground parking garage and ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2015, 04:13:21 PM
Here is another detail that has always intrigued me, from the inspection in the gym:

1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.

2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result.
- At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.


A prior inspection of the gym by both dogs with no odour detected.

Then an inspection of clothing that (apparently) resulted in detection of odour on certain clothing.

Except that, there was no gap between the prior inspection of the premises and the inspection of the clothing, tending to suggest that the clothes were already laid out before the inspection of the premises.

So why was no odour detected during the inspection of the premises?

And what was the point of the inspection of the premises?
Thankyou. By looking at the original portuguese of what you posted, some progress is made:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P8/08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2101.jpg
The alerted items were from box "sala comum".
There was another box "sala da estar" (which produced no alerts).
Some internet research reveals that in open-plan layouts in portugal where there is both a "sala da estar" area and a "sala comum" area, usually the "sala comum" refers to the dining area.

IMO the the alerted clothes were all from the dining area of the Rua Das Flores house.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on July 27, 2015, 04:26:43 PM
Or was the cardboard box made in part of coconut fibre?
Or were all the alerts due to transfer from a coir doormat?
Or was a coconut dropped by a migrating swallow and rolled into the underground parking garage and ...

Presumably an African Swallow.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2015, 04:52:54 PM
Presumably an African Swallow.
But African swallows do not migrate. European swallows do, they go to Africa and back.
So maybe small particles of coconut dropped from a European swallow returning from Africa, onto the items being tested in Portimao?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 05:10:12 PM
But African swallows do not migrate. European swallows do, they go to Africa and back.
So maybe small particles of coconut dropped from a European swallow returning from Africa, onto the items being tested in Portimao?

 @)(++(*

You should give up the day job, comedy is your forte!

@ Lace, thanks for the link, alot to read there. Very interesting to read there are three types of "cadaver dog" too
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on July 27, 2015, 05:51:07 PM
But African swallows do not migrate. European swallows do, they go to Africa and back.
So maybe small particles of coconut dropped from a European swallow returning from Africa, onto the items being tested in Portimao?

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 27, 2015, 06:06:23 PM
Thankyou. By looking at the original portuguese of what you posted, some progress is made:
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P8/08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2101.jpg
The alerted items were from box "sala comum".
There was another box "sala da estar" (which produced no alerts).
Some internet research reveals that in open-plan layouts in portugal where there is both a "sala da estar" area and a "sala comum" area, usually the "sala comum" refers to the dining area.

IMO the the alerted clothes were all from the dining area of the Rua Das Flores house.

Certainly all the clothes, apparently, "alerted" to came from the same box, which is probably what prompted the question put to Grime in his rogatory interview about cross-contamination.

He confirmed that cross-contamination is immediate (indeed it is!)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 27, 2015, 06:12:02 PM
Certainly all the clothes, apparently, "alerted" to came from the same box, which is probably what prompted the question put to Grime in his rogatory interview about cross-contamination.

He confirmed that cross-contamination is immediate (indeed it is!)

When you think of the huge number of items of clothing collected in various boxes/cases  - the chances of the only items alerted to - all being packed in the same box must be phenomenal.





Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 27, 2015, 06:30:32 PM

Here is the link to the article -  http://csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

In my opinion Eddie looked hot he was panting a lot,  he was called back numerous times.

a very interesting article ...read the whole of it ...it gives some good pointers how false positives can occur..
a dog repeatedly called back will get tired and alert just to end the search....very interesting. No wonder Grime thought it important to point out that without confirmation the alerts should not be taken as evidence
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2015, 08:27:20 PM
a very interesting article ...read the whole of it ...it gives some good pointers how false positives can occur..
a dog repeatedly called back will get tired and alert just to end the search....very interesting. No wonder Grime thought it important to point out that without confirmation the alerts should not be taken as evidence
See also the study on the same csst site which found that a minimum of 85 minutes post-mortem interval was required for even one of their five dogs to alert.
Compare that with Mr Amaral's theory which has PMI commencing hypothetiacally at the earliest at 9.10pm (chat outside window) and add the csst minimum 85 minutes to that which gives at earliest 10.35pm which obviously would make it impossible the Smith sighting is relevant. IMO Amaral's theory (sofa during chat + smith sighting) doesn't work.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 27, 2015, 10:45:52 PM
See also the study on the same csst site which found that a minimum of 85 minutes post-mortem interval was required for even one of their five dogs to alert.
Compare that with Mr Amaral's theory which has PMI commencing hypothetiacally at the earliest at 9.10pm (chat outside window) and add the csst minimum 85 minutes to that which gives at earliest 10.35pm which obviously would make it impossible the Smith sighting is relevant. IMO Amaral's theory (sofa during chat + smith sighting) doesn't work.

I would omit 3 letters from the sentence I underline: IMO!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 27, 2015, 10:58:36 PM
a very interesting article ...read the whole of it ...it gives some good pointers how false positives can occur..
a dog repeatedly called back will get tired and alert just to end the search....very interesting. No wonder Grime thought it important to point out that without confirmation the alerts should not be taken as evidence

IMO Mr Grime knew exactly what was going on with the dogs which is why he gave no hostages to fortune in the statements of record.  I think he may have overestimated the Portuguese understanding of the checks as he was used to working with British police forces who understood the need for corroborative evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 27, 2015, 11:17:03 PM

1. So Eddie was trained as a Rescue Dog at first,  Therefore he would have been trained to find live human beings, 

For that he would need to be trained as a Decomp Dog to recognise the scents of human tissue, urine, semen, blood, etc. + materials handled (worn) by live humans

Decomp Dog
A term used to describe a canine that will indicate when a scent source is human tissue, blood, semen, urine, feces, and materials that have been handled and worn by humans; often cross trained for other purposes.

2.  Later he was trained as a Cadaver dog, or so we are told.

But is Eddie truly a Cadavar Dog?   

Cadaver Dog
A narrow term, used in a search-and-rescue context, to indicate a canine primarily trained as a tracking or air-scent dog that has also received cross training in the location of dead human bodies.  But he found NO dead bodies !



So Cadavar dog does not cover what Eddie was supposed to do.  He was not specifically trained to search and rescue, nor tracking, nor air-scent work ... and he wasn't actually finding any dead bodies


3.  In reality Eddie is a Forensic Search Dog .... or he should be for the work he was doing. 



Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; **** and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.****


4.  At different periods,

a)  Eddie was trained to look for living humans with their urine, blood, living tissue, etc scents

b)  Eddie was trained to scent sources from decomposed human tissue.  Such as a Forensic Search Dog and he was not supposed to alert to the residual scent of a live human


5.  Poor dog.  Eddie received two opposing sets of training. 

No wonder he appeared a bit schizophrenic when he was racing around the cars



To remind you,

The Forensic Search Dog, which Eddie actually was

**** should have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.****



With thanks to Lace and http://csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2015, 11:49:30 PM
If we hypothesise something happening as late as say 9.45pm then hypothetically adding 1 hour and 25 minutes would be even after GNR searched apartment, how ridiculous is that?
Is there is any other study which says the CSST study was wrong?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 28, 2015, 12:37:00 AM
See also the study on the same csst site which found that a minimum of 85 minutes post-mortem interval was required for even one of their five dogs to alert.
Compare that with Mr Amaral's theory which has PMI commencing hypothetiacally at the earliest at 9.10pm (chat outside window) and add the csst minimum 85 minutes to that which gives at earliest 10.35pm which obviously would make it impossible the Smith sighting is relevant. IMO Amaral's theory (sofa during chat + smith sighting) doesn't work.


Inconsistencies - first at 6:30, second at 9:10 and third at 10:03.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 28, 2015, 01:00:45 AM
Inconsistencies - first at 6:30, second at 9:10 and third at 10:03.
Your theory (which I don't agree with) would need either to provide a minimum 1 hour 25 minutes in the first location, or to find other research which disproves the CSST study (which found that minimum time).

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 28, 2015, 03:05:27 AM
This is what I have been saying for years.  Eddie was not a proper Cadaver Dog.  This is not a criticism, merely a fact.  And Martin Grime knew this.
Of course he could find Cadavers, if there was one. 
Amaral simply didn't understand any of this.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 28, 2015, 06:52:16 AM
So without confirmation...for lots of reasons...the alerts are meaningless...which is why Grime was so guarded...amaral just didn't understand
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 28, 2015, 06:57:01 AM
Your theory (which I don't agree with) would need either to provide a minimum 1 hour 25 minutes in the first location, or to find other research which disproves the CSST study (which found that minimum time).

Not necessarily. Something could have happened to the child indoors at any time if the parents did not check them, or didn't notice, before or after going out.




Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 28, 2015, 06:59:44 AM
Not necessarily. Something could have happened to the child indoors at any time if the parents did not check them, or didn't notice, before or after going out.

The child was last seen at 5.30pm by strangers. Loads of time for anything to occur.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 28, 2015, 07:12:11 AM
The child was last seen at 5.30pm by strangers. Loads of time for anything to occur.

Yup, thats what the PJ final report said, IIRC,something about not being able to establish what occurred between 5.30 and 10

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 28, 2015, 07:27:21 AM
if Maddie had an accident and died between 5.30 and 8.30...no need for a cover up
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 28, 2015, 07:47:17 AM
if Maddie had an accident and died between 5.30 and 8.30...no need for a cover up
The tmeline is 5.30 to 10 (ish)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 28, 2015, 07:50:57 AM
The tmeline is 5.30 to 10 (ish)

we are told 85 mins for cadaver in situ to develop scent....again...why the cover up if an accident happened before 8.30
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 28, 2015, 07:52:00 AM

1. So Eddie was trained as a Rescue Dog at first,  Therefore he would have been trained to find live human beings, 

For that he would need to be trained as a Decomp Dog to recognise the scents of human tissue, urine, semen, blood, etc. + materials handled (worn) by live humans

Decomp Dog
A term used to describe a canine that will indicate when a scent source is human tissue, blood, semen, urine, feces, and materials that have been handled and worn by humans; often cross trained for other purposes.

2.  Later he was trained as a Cadaver dog, or so we are told.

But is Eddie truly a Cadavar Dog?   

Cadaver Dog
A narrow term, used in a search-and-rescue context, to indicate a canine primarily trained as a tracking or air-scent dog that has also received cross training in the location of dead human bodies.  But he found NO dead bodies !



So Cadavar dog does not cover what Eddie was supposed to do.  He was not specifically trained to search and rescue, nor tracking, nor air-scent work ... and he wasn't actually finding any dead bodies


3.  In reality Eddie is a Forensic Search Dog .... or he should be for the work he was doing. 



Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; **** and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.****


4.  At different periods,

a)  Eddie was trained to look for living humans with their urine, blood, living tissue, etc scents

b)  Eddie was trained to scent sources from decomposed human tissue.  Such as a Forensic Search Dog and he was not supposed to alert to the residual scent of a live human


5.  Poor dog.  Eddie received two opposing sets of training. 

No wonder he appeared a bit schizophrenic when he was racing around the cars



To remind you,

The Forensic Search Dog, which Eddie actually was

**** should have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.****



With thanks to Lace and http://csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

You let your own blindness, as with other mccann supporters, to be unable to grasp that dogs are very adaptable and can be retrained.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 28, 2015, 07:53:55 AM
You let your own blindness, as with other mccann supporters, to be unable to grasp that dogs are very adaptable and can be retrained.

you obviously haven't read the article
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 28, 2015, 08:13:34 AM
you obviously haven't read the article

Which article dave ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 28, 2015, 08:25:45 AM
we are told 85 mins for cadaver in situ to develop scent....again...why the cover up if an accident happened before 8.30

"I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom...........I was very clear about this, as having heard him say that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E. alone."
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 28, 2015, 08:33:19 AM
"I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom...........I was very clear about this, as having heard him say that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to E. alone."

I don't think many share your view that this case involves Maddie being the victim of sexual abuse
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 28, 2015, 08:38:59 AM
How many mothers who harbour the suspicions Mrs G, apparently, harboured, would allow the man they suspect anywhere near their daughter at any time, let alone at bath time.

Yet that is what Mrs G's statement, apparently, says.

I distrust the statement most of all ...

But then, we are off-topic ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 28, 2015, 09:21:41 AM
From the article linked to earlier:

) A severely fatigued dog can inadvertently be pressured to give a false alert because it wants to terminate the search in order to rest. Therefore, it is important to maintain the dog at a high level of physical fitness so that it may work for multiple hours with only brief rest periods.

6) Dogs used to develop probable cause based upon residual scent must be negatively conditioned to human urine, feces, and semen in order to ensure that the animal will not alert when encountering these substances during a search. All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively conditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue. It must be kept in mind, however, that many dogs will react or show interest to any decomposed tissue at certain short times during the decomposition process.

7) Training for dogs used in search-and-rescue for lost persons (cadaver dogs) and for general field searching to find visible decomposed remains is generally appropriate and effective for that type of situation, but not for highly specialized situations or to build probable cause based solely upon residual scent.



ETA:

PJ Inspector Dias said this about Eddie:

From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'


Clearly Inspector Dias had concerns ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 28, 2015, 09:24:38 AM
From the article linked to earlier:

) A severely fatigued dog can inadvertently be pressured to give a false alert because it wants to terminate the search in order to rest. Therefore, it is important to maintain the dog at a high level of physical fitness so that it may work for multiple hours with only brief rest periods.

6) Dogs used to develop probable cause based upon residual scent must be negatively conditioned to human urine, feces, and semen in order to ensure that the animal will not alert when encountering these substances during a search. All dogs, no matter what level of training, used in the detection of decomposed human tissue should be negatively conditioned to the scent of decomposed non-human tissue. It must be kept in mind, however, that many dogs will react or show interest to any decomposed tissue at certain short times during the decomposition process.

7) Training for dogs used in search-and-rescue for lost persons (cadaver dogs) and for general field searching to find visible decomposed remains is generally appropriate and effective for that type of situation, but not for highly specialized situations or to build probable cause based solely upon residual scent.




So which dogs were severely fatigued ?

Your continued attempts to dismiss the dogs and Grime, really shows desperation.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 28, 2015, 09:28:58 AM
You let your own blindness, as with other mccann supporters, to be unable to grasp that dogs are very adaptable and can be retrained.

If you read the literature, of which there is plenty, dogs cannot be 'untrained' to ignore earlier training.

For example, a dog trained on pig foetuses will always respond to dead pig.

For this reason cadaver dogs in some States in the USA are trained solely on complete human remains ~ human body parts and nothing else.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 28, 2015, 09:45:16 AM
If you read the literature, of which there is plenty, dogs cannot be 'untrained' to ignore earlier training.

For example, a dog trained on pig foetuses will always respond to dead pig.

For this reason cadaver dogs in some States in the USA are trained solely on complete human remains ~ human body parts and nothing else.

Who said dogs can be 'untrained' ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 28, 2015, 10:03:34 AM
Who said dogs can be 'untrained' ?

Your ill informed posts just cannot stand beside the researched posts from Sadie (which is the one you chose to denigrate) and Ferryman ... which lay out to all but those who will not comprehend ... that dogs can be "retrained" (your word) or fresh skills added to their repertoire ... but cannot be "untrained" (my word) to forget old skills.

                                                    Is that clear enough for you?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 28, 2015, 10:07:59 AM
Your ill informed posts just cannot stand beside the researched posts from Sadie (which is the one you chose to denigrate) and Ferryman ... which lay out to all but those who will not comprehend ... that dogs can be "retrained" (your word) or fresh skills added to their repertoire ... but cannot be "untrained" (my word) to forget old skills.

                                                    Is that clear enough for you?

So dogs can't learn new skills  ?

As to ferryman and sadie, they find 'research' which suits their purposes.

That is well known, and neither are experts.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=CAN+FORENSIC+DOGS+BE+TRAINED+TO+DETECT+OTHER+SCENTS&biw=929&bih=509&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAGoVChMI87rZyr79xgIVAbUUCh11mQ60&dpr=2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_and_rescue_dog
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 28, 2015, 10:15:01 AM
So dogs can't learn new skills  ?

As to ferryman and sadie, they find 'research' which suits their purposes.

That is well known, and neither are experts.

Dogs can learn new skills.  But they can't unlearn old ones.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 28, 2015, 10:16:40 AM
Dogs can learn new skills.  But they can't unlearn old ones.

I didn't say they could.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 28, 2015, 10:21:02 AM
I didn't say they could.

So what was Eddie alerting to?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 28, 2015, 10:26:05 AM
So what was Eddie alerting to?

AS regards both dogs, there are two clear options.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 28, 2015, 10:36:08 AM
So what was Eddie alerting to?

Sausages
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on July 28, 2015, 10:43:35 AM
we are told 85 mins for cadaver in situ to develop scent....again...why the cover up if an accident happened before 8.30

Madeleine was put to bed at 7pm.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 28, 2015, 10:49:28 AM
Sausages

Was that a little weenie ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 28, 2015, 10:53:35 AM
Sausages

Pork or Beef?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 28, 2015, 11:12:28 AM
Pork or Beef?

More likely chicken. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 28, 2015, 11:28:14 AM
More likely chicken. 8)-)))

Chicken Sausages?  Good Lord.  Whatever next.

PS.  Don't reply to this post.  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 28, 2015, 04:15:43 PM
So which dogs were severely fatigued ?

Your continued attempts to dismiss the dogs and Grime, really shows desperation.
Next they'll be assuring us that Eddie's total lack of reliability was due to his being tired and fatigued out after a long woof (and probably pining for the yorkshire dales too).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: slartibartfast on July 28, 2015, 06:29:20 PM
Next they'll be assuring us that Eddie's total lack of reliability was due to his being tired and fatigued out after a long woof (and probably pining for the yorkshire dales too).

Are you after an argument?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 28, 2015, 07:34:11 PM
Next they'll be assuring us that Eddie's total lack of reliability was due to his being tired and fatigued out after a long woof (and probably pining for the yorkshire dales too).


 8@??)( 8@??)( @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 28, 2015, 08:50:13 PM
Next they'll be assuring us that Eddie's total lack of reliability was due to his being tired and fatigued out after a long woof (and probably pining for the yorkshire dales too).

Dogs are unable to sweat...how hot was it in PDL....Grime kept calling him back... It's a possibility Eddie had had enough according to the posted article
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 28, 2015, 09:02:49 PM
Are you after an argument?
I already replied Slarti, why do you keep asking?

Back on topic - @dave1 actually dogs do sweat a little - but their main method of cooling down is panting.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 28, 2015, 10:57:57 PM
Dogs do not sweat in the same way as humans.This is why so many muzzled dogs die in the heat……………………

...................................................................................

A dog's body temperature is controlled by her brain. When there are increases in outside temperatures or a dog is excited, stressed, or has been exercising, her body gets a signal from her brain to lose the extra body heat. In humans, this usually results in sweating.

Dogs do have some sweat glands, but they are much fewer than in humans and their skin is covered in fur, so this minimizes the amount of cooling the sweat can provide.
The most sweat glands in a dog are around her paw pads. You may see damp footprints from your dog walking on a hard surface in the summertime.



Panting is the most efficient way dogs have to cool themselves. It works by allowing heat from the hottest part of the body, the inner thorax, to escape through moisture produced by the mucous membranes of the tongue, mouth, and throat. The dog exhales the moist air, and the process of evaporation cools the dog.

If these processes cannot be performed or the body is overwhelmed and cannot cool itself enough, heat stroke and death may occur.

http://www.doghealth.com/how-and-why/how-dogs-sweat
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 29, 2015, 12:23:56 AM
if Maddie had an accident and died between 5.30 and 8.30...no need for a cover up
Precisely.
Some might claim one can just squeeze 1hr25mins in by having that period start 8.35pm and end 10.00pm.
But that is ruled out by the 9.00pm visual shutter sighting and the 9.05pm visual child sighting.
Therefore it impossible to make any solution match the CSST minimum time (unless some critically stupid wrong assumption has been made by every investigator for 8 years).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 29, 2015, 12:46:32 AM
To remind you, stephen, Eddie was not really a Cadavar Dog


In reality Eddie was a Forensic Search Dog .... or he should have been for the work he was doing. 



Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; **** and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.****


But Eddie had previously been trained to be a Rescue and Decomp Dog

Decomp Dog
A term used to describe a canine that will indicate when a scent source is human tissue, blood, semen, urine, feces, and materials that have been handled and worn by humans; often cross trained for other purposes.


Once a dog has been trained to alert to something, that cannot be unlearned.  He cannot be deconditioned.

So Eddie alerts

1)  to blood, semen, urine, feces etc. from living humans and materials that have been worn by living humans

2)  to scent sources from decomposed human tissue

3)  And he was trained on pig carcases.
So as davel says to pork sausages.   Also to bacon sarnies, and pork sarnies

ETA He cannot be detrained, so he will alert to pork in any form



With thanks to Lace and http://csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 06:37:56 AM
To remind you, stephen, Eddie was not really a Cadavar Dog


In reality Eddie was a Forensic Search Dog .... or he should have been for the work he was doing. 



Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; **** and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.****


But Eddie had previously been trained to be a Rescue and Decomp Dog

Decomp Dog
A term used to describe a canine that will indicate when a scent source is human tissue, blood, semen, urine, feces, and materials that have been handled and worn by humans; often cross trained for other purposes.


Once a dog has been trained to alert to something, that cannot be unlearned.  He cannot be deconditioned.

So Eddie alerts

1)  to blood, semen, urine, feces etc. from living humans and materials that have been worn by living humans

2)  to scent sources from decomposed human tissue

3)  And he was trained on pig carcases.
So as davel says to pork sausages.   Also to bacon sarnies, and pork sarnies
[/b]


With thanks to Lace and http://csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html

That is so wrong it's quite amusing;

The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 07:12:19 AM
That is so wrong it's quite amusing;

The importance of this is that the dog is
introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
ever present in the background environment. Therefore the dog would
remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
eating bacon sandwiches

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Edited to amend.

I see you were quoting Grime.

Enough said ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 07:25:47 AM


Just to remind posters as to what the thread is about......amaral stated in his book...



From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)

amaral was wrong to assume this.....posters still believe this now...they are wrong...contributors to his fund believe this...they are wrong
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 07:29:14 AM

Just to remind posters as to what the thread is about......amaral stated in his book...



From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)

amaral was wrong to assume this.....posters still believe this now...they are wrong...contributors to his fund believe this...they are wrong

Also a very large part of the reason (though far from the whole reason) why Dr Amaral lost the libel trial .....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 07:44:28 AM
Edited to amend.

I see you were quoting Grime.

Enough said ....

Common sense tells us that a dog alerting to food would be of no use at all ever. I don't need Grime to tell me that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 07:50:52 AM
Common sense tells us that a dog alerting to food would be of no use at all ever. I don't need Grime to tell me that.

If you wish to post on this thread perhaps you could address the topic of the thread
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on July 29, 2015, 08:29:50 AM
Cadaver dogs do not alert to bacon sandwiches or pork sausages!! Or semen or sweat etc. I have a book on cadaver dogs. Will post for you guys if you like.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 08:31:58 AM
Cadaver dogs do not alert to bacon sandwiches or pork sausages!! Or semen or sweat etc. I have a book on cadaver dogs. Will post for you guys if you like.

we are all aware of what the dogs alert to.....we are also aware that Grime could not confirm that the alerts were definitely to cadaver.....the fact is amaral completely misrepresented/misunderstood the evidence
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on July 29, 2015, 08:40:48 AM
I agree with that. I just keep reading about the dogs alerting to urine/semen etc. Of course any policeman would take these alerts seriously and try and find corroborating evidence I would assume. He did and he didn't find any.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on July 29, 2015, 08:45:33 AM
Also a very large part of the reason (though far from the whole reason) why Dr Amaral lost the libel trial .....

A bit pedantic, but still it was a damages trial, no? At least that it was what that poster oxfordbloo claimed and he seemed to have good knowledge of Portuguese law.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on July 29, 2015, 08:59:25 AM
What would be interesting to know is how far forensics have progressed since 2007 and if there is much forensic material left from 2007. That could certainly put this matter to bed. Seems SY applied for and got material collected. What that material was we don't know but newspaper reports suggested the curtains...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 09:06:53 AM
A bit pedantic, but still it was a damages trial, no? At least that it was what that poster oxfordbloo claimed and he seemed to have good knowledge of Portuguese law.

Pedantry is justified when deployed to counter dishonesty, and those of a certain persuasion wish to cover up that the second part of the libel trial was to determine what level of damage award would adequately compensate the McCanns for the libel perpetrated against them by Amaral.

Swinging it all back on topic, a large part of the reason why Amaral lost the libel trial is because he screwed up royally in his (mis)interpretation of the reactions of the dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 29, 2015, 09:20:45 AM
What would be interesting to know is how far forensics have progressed since 2007 and if there is much forensic material left from 2007. That could certainly put this matter to bed. Seems SY applied for and got material collected. What that material was we don't know but newspaper reports suggested the curtains...

Julie Pacey murder Crimewatch appeal: Police get 'overwhelming' number of calls

** Snip
A scientist has now produced an almost complete DNA profile of the killer - but police cannot find a match in their database.

It is after developments in DNA profiling produced startling results and gave investigating officers fresh hope.

Read more: http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Julie-Pacey-murder-Crimewatch-appeal-Police/story-27505557-detail/story.html#ixzz3hGY4t1Kx


Science has come on by leaps and bounds since 2007.

But as in Julie Pacey's murder if there is nothing with which to match it, almost a certainty in Portugal, its value may be limited to elimination purposes.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 29, 2015, 09:32:28 AM
Cadaver dogs do not alert to bacon sandwiches or pork sausages!! Or semen or sweat etc. I have a book on cadaver dogs. Will post for you guys if you like.
So what DO they alert to when no evidence of any corpse is found?  For example Zampo the cadaver dog which alerted numerous times in a forest in which the handler believed murders and dismemberments had taken place but which later turned out to be untrue?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 29, 2015, 09:35:34 AM
If you wish to post on this thread perhaps you could address the topic of the thread

"Amaral & the Dogs"?
It seems to me any post containing either the word dog or Amaral would be on topic.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 29, 2015, 09:40:37 AM
So what DO they alert to when no evidence of any corpse is found?  For example Zampo the cadaver dog which alerted numerous times in a forest in which the handler believed murders and dismemberments had taken place but which later turned out to be untrue?

A true example of 'Scandinavian Noir'
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/20/thomas-quick-bergwall-sweden-murder

Also an example of the closeness of handler and dog; the handler expected to find something that wasn't there, so the dog found it.
A perfect example of "Clever Hans".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 09:42:36 AM
"Amaral & the Dogs"?
It seems to me any post containing either the word dog or Amaral would be on topic.

So by your logic any post containing either and or the would be on topic
Thanks for your contribution
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on July 29, 2015, 09:52:19 AM
So what DO they alert to when no evidence of any corpse is found?  For example Zampo the cadaver dog which alerted numerous times in a forest in which the handler believed murders and dismemberments had taken place but which later turned out to be untrue?

Dead bodies and blood. I should rephrase and say they are not supposed to alert to anything else(obviously, doesn't mean that doesn't happen). The arguments presented regarding the heat and leading the dog also seem compelling to me. Of course you have both dogs alerting in the same places which seems unlikely, but the existence of blood for instance means little I would imagine especially with 3 youngsters running around. If there is any truth to the rumour that Kate handled cadavers and was wearing the same clothes I don't see why that would not work too. All this of course is why corroborating evidence is needed.

 Also, I have read that latest research suggests that a dead body does not need to be situ for as long as thought and could be as little as 10 minutes to leave scent which can be detected. Sorry I don't have the link right now.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2015, 09:58:48 AM

Could you all somehow manage to throw Amaral somewhere into the mix?

PS.  Even a PS. will do.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on July 29, 2015, 10:26:08 AM
This is the part of the article I posted a link to that tells it all as far as I am concerned -


2) Dogs specifically trained to detect scent of decomposed human tissue can be invaluable in resolving issues related to evidence gathering and determination of investigative direction. It is crucial, however, that dogs be used in situations appropriate to their training level, and that dog handlers are able to support their testimony about dog behavior with accurate training logs. Any canine used for forensic purposes in the location of the scent of decomposed human tissue should never be cross-trained for any other type of scent work if the results of the animal's activities and handler's opinions are to be used for the development of probable cause.


Eddie was trained as a rescue dog first of all,   in which case he would have been trained to detect live human bodies.

When Eddie alerted in the living room behind the sofa,  he alerted exactly where Keela had,  the exact spot, so was obviously in my opinion alerting to may be blood.

If Madeleine had lain behind that sofa long enough for the scent of a cadaver to be apparent,  then Eddie would have been alerting to whole of the area behind the sofa.

Eddie was panting so he was obviously tired and hot,   Keela wasn't panting.

When did Grime retire Eddie?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2015, 10:42:25 AM
This is the part of the article I posted a link to that tells it all as far as I am concerned -


2) Dogs specifically trained to detect scent of decomposed human tissue can be invaluable in resolving issues related to evidence gathering and determination of investigative direction. It is crucial, however, that dogs be used in situations appropriate to their training level, and that dog handlers are able to support their testimony about dog behavior with accurate training logs. Any canine used for forensic purposes in the location of the scent of decomposed human tissue should never be cross-trained for any other type of scent work if the results of the animal's activities and handler's opinions are to be used for the development of probable cause.


Eddie was trained as a rescue dog first of all,   in which case he would have been trained to detect live human bodies.

When Eddie alerted in the living room behind the sofa,  he alerted exactly where Keela had,  the exact spot, so was obviously in my opinion alerting to may be blood.

If Madeleine had lain behind that sofa long enough for the scent of a cadaver to be apparent,  then Eddie would have been alerting to whole of the area behind the sofa.

Eddie was panting so he was obviously tired and hot,   Keela wasn't panting.

When did Grime retire Eddie?

Thank You, Lace.

There, you see.  It's not difficult.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 29, 2015, 10:43:54 AM
This is the part of the article I posted a link to that tells it all as far as I am concerned -


2) Dogs specifically trained to detect scent of decomposed human tissue can be invaluable in resolving issues related to evidence gathering and determination of investigative direction. It is crucial, however, that dogs be used in situations appropriate to their training level, and that dog handlers are able to support their testimony about dog behavior with accurate training logs. Any canine used for forensic purposes in the location of the scent of decomposed human tissue should never be cross-trained for any other type of scent work if the results of the animal's activities and handler's opinions are to be used for the development of probable cause.


Eddie was trained as a rescue dog first of all,   in which case he would have been trained to detect live human bodies.

When Eddie alerted in the living room behind the sofa,  he alerted exactly where Keela had,  the exact spot, so was obviously in my opinion alerting to may be blood.

If Madeleine had lain behind that sofa long enough for the scent of a cadaver to be apparent,  then Eddie would have been alerting to whole of the area behind the sofa.

Eddie was panting so he was obviously tired and hot,   Keela wasn't panting.

When did Grime retire Eddie?

Why don't you contact him yourself on linkedin and find out ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2015, 10:49:17 AM
Why don't you contact him yourself on linkedin and find out ?

Amaral and The Dogs, please, Stephen.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 29, 2015, 10:54:33 AM
Amaral and The Dogs, please, Stephen.

Lace asked a question and I gave her a suggestion related to the topic.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2015, 10:59:31 AM
Lace asked a question and I gave her a suggestion related to the topic.

Not quite good enough, Stephen.  Especially as Martin Grime will not reply.  As well you know.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 29, 2015, 11:03:40 AM
Not quite good enough, Stephen.  Especially as Martin Grime will not reply.  As well you know.

How do you know that ?

and bearing in mind the slagging off he gets from certain members of this forum and elsewhere, I would imagine he has to be careful.

So on that basis, what is the point of Lace's question, as only opinions could be offered, without inside knowledge ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2015, 11:20:45 AM

I will be deleting Off Topic Posts shortly.  So why not save your time and mine.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 29, 2015, 11:23:00 AM
This is the part of the article I posted a link to that tells it all as far as I am concerned -


2) Dogs specifically trained to detect scent of decomposed human tissue can be invaluable in resolving issues related to evidence gathering and determination of investigative direction. It is crucial, however, that dogs be used in situations appropriate to their training level, and that dog handlers are able to support their testimony about dog behavior with accurate training logs. Any canine used for forensic purposes in the location of the scent of decomposed human tissue should never be cross-trained for any other type of scent work if the results of the animal's activities and handler's opinions are to be used for the development of probable cause.


Eddie was trained as a rescue dog first of all,   in which case he would have been trained to detect live human bodies.

When Eddie alerted in the living room behind the sofa,  he alerted exactly where Keela had,  the exact spot, so was obviously in my opinion alerting to may be blood.

If Madeleine had lain behind that sofa long enough for the scent of a cadaver to be apparent,  then Eddie would have been alerting to whole of the area behind the sofa.

Eddie was panting so he was obviously tired and hot,   Keela wasn't panting.

When did Grime retire Eddie?


Eddie would have been 12 years old when he died. He would have been retired some time before this and after the Jersey search. So between 2009 and 2012. I cant see anything referring to him after Jersey. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BLOOD DOG EDDIE DIED PEACEFULLY APPROX APRIL 2012 FROM THROAT CANCER

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DEATHS.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 29, 2015, 11:28:35 AM
Not the best of cites showing that the dogs were not entirely understood by Goncalo Amaral.  However Is this not what we should be discussing?

From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann.http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/chapter-16.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 29, 2015, 11:57:44 AM
Without evidence of any kind to go on I think Mr Amaral's last throw of the die was to get a confession.  I have no idea whether he actually believed "the evidence of the dogs" but it seems he thought it would panic his chosen targets to the extent he would have another 'successful' outcome under his belt, and his future in the PJ assured.

He was and is very sore about having to go, an event for which he blames the Drs McCann ... but which in reality had nothing much to do with them but a lot to do with his own actions.

Alfred has reminded us about Zampo whose alerts to what must have been thought of as residual cadaver odour most certainly allowed a killer or a series of killers to walk free.
Which is a consideration when forming a "theory" and bending the facts to suit.

Quote
 In 2008, Hannes Råstam, one of Sweden's most respected documentary-makers, became intrigued.
He visited the former Thomas Quick, now known as Sture Bergwall, at Säter, trawled through the 50,000 pages of court documents, therapy notes and police interrogations and came to the startling conclusion that there was not a single shred of technical evidence for any of Bergwall's convictions.
There were no DNA traces, no murder weapons, no eyewitnesses – nothing apart from his confessions, many of which had been given when he was under the influence of narcotic-strength drugs. Confronted with Råstam's discoveries, Bergwall admitted the unthinkable. He said he had fabricated the entire story.   Unquote
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/20/thomas-quick-bergwall-sweden-murder

Davel kindly posted a timely reminder of exactly Mr Amaral's thought process which is wrong in its entirety and meant the inquiry under his leadership was led in entirely the wrong direction  ... Quote:  So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)  Unquote

No-one ... not even the dog's handler could conclude anything without corroboration.
Nor can any interpretation be made as from whom the supposed odour emanated ... unless as well as not lying dogs can talk and make an inky impress of their paw on a witness statement.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 29, 2015, 12:10:48 PM
If the dogs had no importance, why the contained reference to them and Grime by mccann supporters ? &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 12:35:58 PM
If the dogs had no importance, why the contained reference to them and Grime by mccann supporters ? &%+((£

because of the continued claims on here and elsewhere that the alerts have value..they have none
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 12:45:58 PM
We've long known about Jean-Paul Gordon's shaving cut.

But some time ago, a fascinating link was produced on this board (I think!) by Anna of all the people (besides Mr Gordon) who did, or might have, bled in apartment 5a before May 3rd, making a still greater mockery of Amaral's insistence that Eddie 'smelt death' all over the place ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 12:47:54 PM
If you wish to post on this thread perhaps you could address the topic of the thread

The clues are 'dog' and 'Grime'
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 29, 2015, 12:48:20 PM
If the dogs had no importance, why the contained reference to them and Grime by mccann supporters ? &%+((£

Speaking for myself ... my introduction to Mr Amaral (whose name in my innocence I spelt with an o ... Lol imagine the stushie!) and the dogs who do not lie was as a result of being directed to the 'dog' videos by sceptics.

To say I was astounded by them is an understatement ... compounded only by having my intelligence insulted by the rather obvious machinations of Lizzie Taylor ... next question, please.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 29, 2015, 12:52:04 PM
Speaking for myself ... my introduction to Mr Amaral (whose name in my innocence I spelt with an o ... Lol imagine the stushie!) and the dogs who do not lie was as a result of being directed to the 'dog' videos by sceptics.

To say I was astounded by them is an understatement ... compounded only by having my intelligence insulted by the rather obvious machinations of Lizzie Taylor ... next question, please.

That's not answering the question.

Why, if the dogs and Grime are irrelevant, why carry on commenting on it ?

The same question can be asked of gerry mccann when he tried to bring it up in the Portuguese Court.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 12:55:48 PM
That's not answering the question.

Why, if the dogs and Grime are irrelevant, why carry on commenting on it ?

The same question can be asked of gerry mccann when he tried to bring it up in the Portuguese Court.

because people still believe the lies told by amaral........that is answering the question
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2015, 12:56:16 PM
The Dogs and Amaral.  If you please.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 29, 2015, 12:58:12 PM
That's not answering the question.

Why, if the dogs and Grime are irrelevant, why carry on commenting on it ?

The same question can be asked of gerry mccann when he tried to bring it up in the Portuguese Court.
The dog alerts were VERY relevant in helping to cement the opinions of many ill-informed individuals that the McCanns dunnit.  Some of these same people still continue (in the face of all the facts) to insist that the dog alerts are proof that Madeleine is dead and that her parents are involved in her disappearance.  As long as these individuals continue to make these unevidenced claims, there will be others pointing out why they are wrong.  Simples innit.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 12:59:01 PM
The clues are 'dog' and 'Grime'

perhaps you would like to post about your dog....the tread is about amaral's interpretation of the dog's alerts. I can see why you want to avoid the topic at all costs and continually try to deflect the tread to other issues
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 29, 2015, 01:01:26 PM
Before anyone accuses me of criticising MG or the dogs….Wrong.
 
These dogs do a wonderful job of locating cadavers or body fluids and they can’t do that job without the assistance of expert trainers/handlers.

Poor little Eddie may have already been sick when he was in Jersey…….We don’t know.

However, evidence of the Jersey  search, (False alert) surely proves that these specialised  dogs don’t  always get it right.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html


In my opinion. GA had already come to the conclusion, that the parents were involved and in his desperation to get a conviction, decided that these dogs were infallible in their detection capabilities. I doubt that it would have  been the first time that police, changed the facts to fit the Theory.

We cant say with certainty, that Eddie did not detect residual scent ,or indeed that he did , at this time.
MG has said that it is not certain without corroboration, so why would GA, think otherwise?
 
We still do not know what happened on that fateful night and there is still a possibility that, Eddie did detect, residual Cadaver scent……If that is the case from who and where ? Back to square one !

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 29, 2015, 01:05:18 PM
The dog alerts were VERY relevant in helping to cement the opinions of many ill-informed individuals that the McCanns dunnit.  Some of these same people still continue (in the face of all the facts) to insist that the dog alerts are proof that Madeleine is dead and that her parents are involved in her disappearance.  As long as these individuals continue to make these unevidenced claims, there will be others pointing out why they are wrong.  Simples innit.

it is also simples that the dogs either did or did not alert to a body.

Innit just.

Meanwhile the crime is unknown.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 01:11:08 PM
it is also simples that the dogs either did or did not alert to a body.

Innit just.

Meanwhile the crime is unknown.

That's right...so you agree amaral was wrong to claim that the alerts proved Maddie died in the apartment..


so if Grime was called to testify in court he could confirm that the dog's may or may not have alerted to a body...fat lot of use that testimony would be
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 29, 2015, 01:29:19 PM
That's right...so you agree amaral was wrong to claim that the alerts proved Maddie died in the apartment..


so if Grime was called to testify in court he could confirm that the dog's may or may not have alerted to a body...fat lot of use that testimony would be

We know the forensic results were inconclusive, whether Amaral was told the wrong information or he made his own conclusions.

2 possibilities remain, even Redwood said she may not have left the apartment  alive.

Meanwhile based on sheer probability, do you think Madeleine is alive ( with a paedophile or a family) or is she unfortunately dead ?

I see the Aussies meanwhile are not too pleased with the shenanigans in the UK press.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 02:07:18 PM
perhaps you would like to post about your dog....the tread is about amaral's interpretation of the dog's alerts. I can see why you want to avoid the topic at all costs and continually try to deflect the tread to other issues

I was answering the rather foolish allegation that Eddie alerted to bacon sandwiches. Amaral's 'mistakes' were minor compared to that.  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 02:08:55 PM
I was answering the rather foolish allegation that Eddie alerted to bacon sandwiches. Amaral's 'mistakes' were minor compared to that.  @)(++(*

Maybe not a bacon sandwich (cured meat).

But certainly a pork joint ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 29, 2015, 02:10:09 PM
I was answering the rather foolish allegation that Eddie alerted to bacon sandwiches. Amaral's 'mistakes' were minor compared to that.  @)(++(*


Has someone been telling porkies ? 8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 02:14:42 PM
Before anyone accuses me of criticising MG or the dogs….Wrong.
 
These dogs do a wonderful job of locating cadavers or body fluids and they can’t do that job without the assistance of expert trainers/handlers.

Poor little Eddie may have already been sick when he was in Jersey…….We don’t know.

However, evidence of the Jersey  search, (False alert) surely proves that these specialised  dogs don’t  always get it right.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html


In my opinion. GA had already come to the conclusion, that the parents were involved and in his desperation to get a conviction, decided that these dogs were infallible in their detection capabilities. I doubt that it would have  been the first time that police, changed the facts to fit the Theory.

We cant say with certainty, that Eddie did not detect residual scent ,or indeed that he did , at this time.
MG has said that it is not certain without corroboration, so why would GA, think otherwise?
 
We still do not know what happened on that fateful night and there is still a possibility that, Eddie did detect, residual Cadaver scent……If that is the case from who and where ? Back to square one !

Well, if you aren't criticising Martin Grime, why not?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 29, 2015, 02:32:58 PM
Well, if you aren't criticising Martin Grime, why not?

Why should I Ferryman?. This topic concerns Amaral and the dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 02:38:25 PM
Why should I Ferryman?. This topic concerns Amaral and the dogs.

Fair point ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 02:50:30 PM
I was answering the rather foolish allegation that Eddie alerted to bacon sandwiches. Amaral's 'mistakes' were minor compared to that.  @)(++(*

I'm glad you accept amaral made mistakes....mistakes made by posters on here are of no consequence...amaral was supposed to be a professional yet he seems to have less knowledge re the dogs than some posters on here
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 29, 2015, 04:34:22 PM
The dog alerts were VERY relevant in helping to cement the opinions of many ill-informed individuals that the McCanns dunnit.  Some of these same people still continue (in the face of all the facts) to insist that the dog alerts are proof that Madeleine is dead and that her parents are involved in her disappearance.  As long as these individuals continue to make these unevidenced claims, there will be others pointing out why they are wrong.  Simples innit.

£5
Question 45
44 mins ago
45. When the sniffer dog marked the scent of corpse coming from the vehicle you hired a month after the disappearance, did you say you couldn’t explain any more than you already had?

£5
Question 44 of the 48 questions Kate McCann refused to answer when asked by the Portuguese police
15 hours ago
44. When the sniffer dog also marked human blood behind the sofa, did you say you couldn’t explain any more than you already had? Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041635/The-48-questions-Kate-McCann-wouldnt-answer--did.html#ixzz3hEQtyM1G Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Taken from very recent posts on Mr Amaral's Gofundme appeal page so repetitive they don't even need to be looked for: seems it is the turn of the 48 questions to make their appearance with the usual tripe about the dogs being the theme.

I perfectly understand why the sceptics prefer to peddle the myth rather than the actuality, that there are other people who prefer to follow the truth and the evidence is not surprising.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 05:01:50 PM
£5
Question 45
44 mins ago
45. When the sniffer dog marked the scent of corpse coming from the vehicle you hired a month after the disappearance, did you say you couldn’t explain any more than you already had?

£5
Question 44 of the 48 questions Kate McCann refused to answer when asked by the Portuguese police
15 hours ago
44. When the sniffer dog also marked human blood behind the sofa, did you say you couldn’t explain any more than you already had? Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041635/The-48-questions-Kate-McCann-wouldnt-answer--did.html#ixzz3hEQtyM1G Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


Taken from very recent posts on Mr Amaral's Gofundme appeal page so repetitive they don't even need to be looked for: seems it is the turn of the 48 questions to make their appearance with the usual tripe about the dogs being the theme.

I perfectly understand why the sceptics prefer to peddle the myth rather than the actuality, that there are other people who prefer to follow the truth and the evidence is not surprising.
It always makes me laugh....those who claim to follow the evidence but like amaral don't understand it

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 06:23:38 PM
I'm glad you accept amaral made mistakes....mistakes made by posters on here are of no consequence...amaral was supposed to be a professional yet he seems to have less knowledge re the dogs than some posters on here

When there are quotation marks around a word it means it's not my word and I don't agree with it. It's a bit like what Kate McCann said about her mistake in leaving her children unprotected. 'If you want to call it that'. Kate would have put quotation marks around that word if she had written it. she would have said 'We made a 'mistake', meaning she doesn't think they did.

Having explained that, I think Amaral did make mistakes, but not the ones some believe he made. He certainly never thought that VRD dogs alert to bacon sandwiches, that would have been foolish.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 29, 2015, 06:35:06 PM
When there are quotation marks around a word it means it's not my word and I don't agree with it. It's a bit like what Kate McCann said about her mistake in leaving her children unprotected. 'If you want to call it that'. Kate would have put quotation marks around that word if she had written it. she would have said 'We made a 'mistake', meaning she doesn't think they did.

Having explained that, I think Amaral did make mistakes, but not the ones some believe he made. He certainly never thought that VRD dogs alert to bacon sandwiches, that would have been foolish.
He thought the dogs alerted to Madeleine's corpse, or chose to believe it unequivocally.  Was he correct to do so?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 06:43:31 PM
When there are quotation marks around a word it means it's not my word and I don't agree with it. It's a bit like what Kate McCann said about her mistake in leaving her children unprotected. 'If you want to call it that'. Kate would have put quotation marks around that word if she had written it. she would have said 'We made a 'mistake', meaning she doesn't think they did.

Having explained that, I think Amaral did make mistakes, but not the ones some believe he made. He certainly never thought that VRD dogs alert to bacon sandwiches, that would have been foolish.

First you say you don't agree he made mistakes then you go on to say you think he did make mistakes....that makes you  a tad confused...it's obvious amaral was mistaken about the alerts and your squirming in not wanting to admit it is equally obvious
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 07:23:31 PM
First you say you don't agree he made mistakes then you go on to say you think he did make mistakes....that makes you  a tad confused...it's obvious amaral was mistaken about the alerts and your squirming in not wanting to admit it is equally obvious

I meant he made other mistakes. One of them was accepting the abduction hypothesis in the beginning.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 29, 2015, 07:27:36 PM
I meant he made other mistakes. One of them was accepting the abduction hypothesis in the beginning.
Did he really?  To the exclusion of all other hypotheses?  That's not what he'd have us believe from his extremely truthful book on the subject.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 07:33:55 PM
I meant he made other mistakes. One of them was accepting the abduction hypothesis in the beginning.
Seeing as all your theories are backed by evidence could you give us a cite showing amaral accepting abduction...you will struggle
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 08:15:19 PM
Seeing as all your theories are backed by evidence could you give us a cite showing amaral accepting abduction...you will struggle

No problem. Most of the work undertaken below was in relation to abduction.

As such, the Portuguese authorities engaged an enormous and expensive panoply of technical and human resources, in the attempt to discover the missing child and the understanding of the explanation of the disappearance.

The PJ never disregarded any information or credible elements – as will be seen in this criminal process – that could have led to the realization of the disappearance, and there have been completed, during these months, more than 2000 diligences, formal and informal, in this regard.

As an example, we refer to the international cooperation, especially with Spain, the Netherlands and the UK which led to the detention and identification of individuals who tried to introduce deceptive information about the hypothetical destination or location of the child.

All of the information with any major or minor level of credibility was explored, nationally and internationally, by the PJ, with special relevance given to dozens of supposed sightings or localizations of the child, most of which, in fact, were widely publicized in the press.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 29, 2015, 08:32:58 PM
No problem. Most of the work undertaken below was in relation to abduction.

As such, the Portuguese authorities engaged an enormous and expensive panoply of technical and human resources, in the attempt to discover the missing child and the understanding of the explanation of the disappearance.

The PJ never disregarded any information or credible elements – as will be seen in this criminal process – that could have led to the realization of the disappearance, and there have been completed, during these months, more than 2000 diligences, formal and informal, in this regard.

As an example, we refer to the international cooperation, especially with Spain, the Netherlands and the UK which led to the detention and identification of individuals who tried to introduce deceptive information about the hypothetical destination or location of the child.

All of the information with any major or minor level of credibility was explored, nationally and internationally, by the PJ, with special relevance given to dozens of supposed sightings or localizations of the child, most of which, in fact, were widely publicized in the press.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/P_J_FINAL_REPORT.htm
None of that supports your contention that Amaral accepted abduction from the beginning to the exclusion of all other hypotheses.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 08:40:06 PM
DL: At which point in time did you consider the McCanns to be suspects?

GA: Let’s see: In terms of suspicion, from the very first hour. The procedures in this type of case are to find out who the persons are, who the missing person is, in this case the missing child, and to find out all the antecedents.


http://gerrymccan-abuseofpower-humanrights.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/duarte-levy-at-which-point-in-time-did.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on July 29, 2015, 08:43:29 PM
I haven't read Amaral's book, but wouldn't it be bad police work in a case like this not to eliminate the parents and those closest as a matter of priority? At least that is what I have heard/read and actually wasn't it the British that initially encouraged the PJ to investigate the parents and tried to develop evidence against them?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 08:56:19 PM
None of that supports your contention that Amaral accepted abduction from the beginning to the exclusion of all other hypotheses.

I didn't say that. All hypotheses were investigated, including abduction. Why else follow up sightings? To fool everyone?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 29, 2015, 09:00:29 PM
I didn't say that. All hypotheses were investigated, including abduction. Why else follow up sightings? To fool everyone?
So remind me again what mistake you think Amaral made?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 09:01:10 PM
I haven't read Amaral's book, but wouldn't it be bad police work in a case like this not to eliminate the parents and those closest as a matter of priority? At least that is what I have heard/read and actually wasn't it the British that initially encouraged the PJ to investigate the parents and tried to develop evidence against them?

I haven't read it either. What people forget is that it was proposing his hypothesis. The work done by the PJ was procedure; searching, investigating sightings etc. Obviously policemen have thoughts or suspicions about what happened, but they still have to investigate all possibilities.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 29, 2015, 09:08:54 PM
Some people almost seem to want others to believe Amaral just made up lies. The PJ were told this by Mark Harrison, the expert search advisor that was brought in. Given that the PJ were uninformed about these types of dogs, I don't see how it is far fetched to reach certain conclusions (ie that the cadaver dog alerts pointed to a death)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2227.jpg



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 09:18:56 PM
I haven't read Amaral's book, but wouldn't it be bad police work in a case like this not to eliminate the parents and those closest as a matter of priority? At least that is what I have heard/read and actually wasn't it the British that initially encouraged the PJ to investigate the parents and tried to develop evidence against them?

I have read enough of Amaral'ls book to pick up the gist of how he formulated his theory of what Gerry (supposedly) did with the body of Madeleine.

He relates that he was called away by his distraught wife from a meeting in the early hours of the morning.  She had found the body of their pet dog with head injuries and she was distraught.  She tried to persuade him to drop the investigation but he calmed and reassured her, and convinced her he must carry on.

Then he tried to dig a hole to bury the corpse of his dog, but he found the ground hard to dig.

So he popped the corpse into the bin and the realisation hit him how much 'easier' it would to hide, rather than bury, a body.

That was it.  Gerry 'hid' Madeleine's body on the beach.

Amaral actually plagiarised the proper detective-work of Mark Harrison, who, himself, never entertained any such theory ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 29, 2015, 09:25:24 PM
444 no-body murder trials in the United States since the early 1800s but over 50% of them have occurred since 2000.

http://www.nobodymurdercases.com/blog.html

Extracts from No Body Murder Investigations by NCOF

‘No Body Murder Investigations’

It is essential in every case that a full review and assessment of the Missing Person Report is undertaken at the outset of such an investigation. The methodology for this review is identified in the paper entitled ‘Useful hints for Police Officers in Suspicious Missing Person Enquiries’. This template can be applied to any missing person report and challenges the reviewing person to answer a number of critical questions in relation to the missing person. It commences with a full victimology enquiry of the missing person followed by the exact circumstances of the disappearance, as indicated below.

Missing Person Report Review

The victimology enquiry should include details of the missing persons, age, sex, race, physical description, height, build, hair and eye colour. Details of any marks, scars, tattoos or body piercing or details of any operations or previous fractures. A copy of the missing person’s dental records is also required. Ascertain if the missing person is recorded on the National DNA Database and if not ensure that a sample of the missing persons DNA is obtained and placed on the NDNA Database as an unsolved crime scene stain. A full description of the missing persons clothing (including buttons, zips and labels) and jewellery worn by the missing person at the time of their disappearance. The lifestyle of the victim must also be analysed and should include, routines, associates, personality, activity at the time of disappearance, location of the last sighting, the victim’s relationship to that location, who they were with that day, and a comprehensive risk assessment of the missing person. Finally all intelligence regarding the area of the last sighting should be analysed for any previous incidents or intelligence regarding the crime profile of that area for any precursor incidents.

Body Disposal, Concealment and Search

Apart from ensuring his/her escape from the scene of a crime, the murderers greatest challenge is to avoid subsequent detection by disposing of the victim’s body.  The short-term aim may simply be to conceal the fact that a crime as been committed for long enough to guarantee a comfortable getaway, but the long-term aim is to prevent the body ever being found or identified.  That way the murderer’s chances of being forensically linked to a criminal act are greatly reduced. Research into murder cases has indicated that where there is an established relationship between the victim – missing person there is more concealed deposition of the body.

Secret burial is perhaps the most common method of a concealment of a corpse, but this too presents difficulties. Merely putting a body in a clandestine grave is no assurance that the grave will not be found, and that subsequent exhumation will not reveal evidence of foul play.  Clandestine burial frequently necessitates transportation of the corpse particularly if the murder was committed in an urban area. One of the greatest drawbacks to burial is that it is never possible to return all the soil to the original hole, with the result that there are visible signs of disturbance. The usual signs are that vegetation has been disturbed and differently coloured sub soil is brought to the surface, leaving a visible scar in the ground.  The shallow grave dug in haste or in ignorance of how deep a grave should be has led to the discovery of many graves. The time constraints of a suspect are often a hindrance to a suspect when attempting to complete a concealed deposition. The inadequately buried body is soon exposed by the weather or the activities of animals, particularly dog walkers and their pets. It is possible to locate such sites by the use of aerial imagery to identify such areas to instigate intelligence led searches. In force Air Support or JARIC (Joint Air Reconnaissance Intelligence Cell) directed by the Polsa Search Manager should be used to assist with the search.

Water disposal is also a widely used method of concealment.  It is also the one method that is the easiest to achieve without the expenditure of a large amount of energy and physical labour required to dig a hole in the ground. In most cases the victim - missing person will be wrapped in something, which in turn will be tied to weights to keep the body concealed under water. In all cases of missing persons who are suspected of being murdered, the nearest area for water disposal should be considered for an underwater search.  An offender’s background can influence the choice of a water deposition.

In a number of recent cases the body has been disposed of over a period of time in the ‘wheelie bin’, the body parts having been frozen in a domestic freezer within the premises.

It is also very wise to have the main drains searched as we have seen many bodies pushed into the drains within the curtilage of the property where the murder was committed. The Serial Killer Denis Nielsen who killed young males used this method of disposal.

In cases involving younger children the cavity required for a disposal is very much smaller. It is worth calculating the amount of space that would be required for a disposal and then ensuring that all such spaces are searched by a Polsa team.

‘The Legal Requirements’

A considerable number of murderers have believed and some still do that the corpus delicti is the body of the victim, and that without it a conviction for murder cannot be obtained. However, many would-be perpetrators have been made painfully aware that a missing body is not an obstacle to pursuing a charge of murder.

In these cases the body of the victim – missing person have not been recovered and there is no trace of the victim or the body despite a very thorough and extensive police investigation. Nevertheless, the police contend that the unlawful killing can be proved beyond all reasonable doubt through the circumstances of the disappearance, and the conduct of the accused both before and after disappearance. The questions of Motive, Opportunity, Preparatory Steps and subsequent actions of an accused should be considered in all cases.

Precedence has been established in law in England over recent years where persons have been convicted of murder in the absence of a body.  I quote, “Evidence supported by the accused himself is sufficient, the fact of death is also provable by circumstantial evidence, notwithstanding that neither the body or any trace of the body has been found. Before a defendant can be convicted, the fact of death should be proved by such circumstances as render the commission of a crime certain and leave no grounds for reasonable doubt. The circumstantial evidence should be cogent and compelling as to convince a jury that no rational hypothesis other that murder can the facts be accounted for. 

A crime has been committed

Which is illustrated by a series of thorough and extensive enquiries that there is no trace of the missing person and therefore no indication that the victim is still alive and living somewhere else. This fact can also be supported by the discovery of a crime scene, usually established by a forensic link of a victim to that location and to an offender. In many previous cases evidence of spilt blood and cleaning if forensically linked to a victim is very compelling evidence of a murder.

An offender exists

The connection of a suspect to the disappearance (motive, opportunity, preparatory steps and subsequent actions) and /or the circumstances surrounding the disappearance is so closely linked that inference can be properly drawn that they are connected to that disappearance.

In each case the accused is the last person to be seen with the missing person in circumstances that are themselves suspicious.

Charlotte Pinkney

DCI Tony Carney
Victim last seen in a vehicle with suspect in early hours of morning. Offender got vehicle stuck in mud at a local beauty spot. Body Dogs indicated that the victims body had been concealed near to where vehicle was stuck in mud. Offender moved the body prior to police search and it remains unfound. Forensic found in vehicle and on suspects shoes.

http://www.belui.ru/Doc/Mejdunar/Angl/17/No%20Body%20Murder%20Investigations.doc
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 09:43:25 PM
In the Charlotte Pinkney case, Grime claimed that Rose immediately admitted his guilt.

Rose was convicted after 12 hours of deliberation by a jury (because he pleaded not guilty!) and fully exhausted his allowed round of appeals ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 10:04:09 PM
Some people almost seem to want others to believe Amaral just made up lies. The PJ were told this by Mark Harrison, the expert search advisor that was brought in. Given that the PJ were uninformed about these types of dogs, I don't see how it is far fetched to reach certain conclusions (ie that the cadaver dog alerts pointed to a death)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2227.jpg

I think that needs to be viewed in the context of the brief Mark Harrison was given by the PJ
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 10:06:58 PM
I didn't say that. All hypotheses were investigated, including abduction. Why else follow up sightings? To fool everyone?

You did say that...you ignore the evidence...there is no evidence that amaral accepted the abduction theory...the evidence points to the fact he suspected the parents from a very early stage. The fact that amaral stated he could prove that maddie died in the apartment is proof he misunderstood the alerts yet you refuse to accept he was mistaken. This proves your beliefs are not based on the evidence but on your bias
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 29, 2015, 10:08:59 PM
I think that needs to be viewed in the context of the brief Mark Harrison was given by the PJ

Would any other context change what he states about the dogs? I doubt it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on July 29, 2015, 10:12:36 PM
I have read enough of Amaral'ls book to pick up the gist of how he formulated his theory of what Gerry (supposedly) did with the body of Madeleine.

He relates that he was called away by his distraught wife from a meeting in the early hours of the morning.  She had found the body of their pet dog with head injuries and she was distraught.  She tried to persuade him to drop the investigation but he calmed and reassured her, and convinced her he must carry on.

Then he tried to dig a hole to bury the corpse of his dog, but he found the ground hard to dig.

So he popped the corpse into the bin and the realisation hit him how much 'easier' it would to hide, rather than bury, a body.

That was it.  Gerry 'hid' Madeleine's body on the beach.

Amaral actually plagiarised the proper detective-work of Mark Harrison, who, himself, never entertained any such theory ....

Interesting theory. What I find incredulous is the notion that he stashed the body, called the world's media and then picked the body up a few weeks later and took it to another location, because this is what it would involve. Would take some balls and how would you know the body was hidden well enough for all that time whilst huge searches were taking place? I imagine there are many ways to conceal a body effectively such as weighing it down with stones and submerging in water and retrieving later. I've often felt quite suspicious of Amaral's involvement tbh concerning the dogs and his history... we are all guessing here though imo and one day perhaps we find out the truth. That's my main area of interest here to see this puzzle finally solved. Don't really care who did it as whoever did deserves to be punished. I think the McCanns should be given the benefit of the doubt given the information at hand otherwise of course they would be charged... and without the dog alerts there would be not much to debate imo.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 10:13:09 PM
Some people almost seem to want others to believe Amaral just made up lies. The PJ were told this by Mark Harrison, the expert search advisor that was brought in. Given that the PJ were uninformed about these types of dogs, I don't see how it is far fetched to reach certain conclusions (ie that the cadaver dog alerts pointed to a death)

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2227.jpg

according to Harrisons  Maddie was murdered......do you think he was referring to her parents....

Amaral misunderstood the dog's alerts...simple...no lies. Furthermore having heard what Grime has said re the dog's he has not retracted his statement
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 10:14:17 PM
Would any other context change what he states about the dogs? I doubt it.

No, of course it wouldn't.

But it did shape the advice that he gave to the PJ ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 10:14:28 PM
I haven't read it either. What people forget is that it was proposing his hypothesis. The work done by the PJ was procedure; searching, investigating sightings etc. Obviously policemen have thoughts or suspicions about what happened, but they still have to investigate all possibilities.

Amaral did not propose any hypothesis...he stated categorically that Maddie died in the apartmnet
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 10:16:08 PM
according to Harrisons  Maddie was murdered......do you think he was referring to her parents....

Amaral misunderstood the dog's alerts...simple...no lies. Furthermore having heard what Grime has said re the dog's he has not retracted his statement

Not quite right, and the distinction is crucial.

Harrison was handed a brief by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine was murdered and did so.

Harrison himself never formed any firm conclusion about what happened to Madeleine.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 10:16:41 PM
Not quite right, and the distinction is crucial.

Harrison was handed a brief by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine was murdered and did so.

Harrison himself never formed any firm conclusion about what happened to Madeleine.

Thank you
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 10:19:30 PM
Interesting theory. What I find incredulous is the notion that he stashed the body, called the world's media and then picked the body up a few weeks later and took it to another location, because this is what it would involve. Would take some balls and how would you know the body was hidden well enough for all that time whilst huge searches were taking place? I imagine there are many ways to conceal a body effectively such as weighing it down with stones and submerging in water and retrieving later. I've often felt quite suspicious of Amaral's involvement tbh concerning the dogs and his history... we are all guessing here though imo and one day perhaps we find out the truth. That's my main area of interest here to see this puzzle finally solved. Don't really care who did it as whoever did deserves to be punished. I think the McCanns should be given the benefit of the doubt given the information at hand otherwise of course they would be charged... and without the dog alerts there would be not much to debate imo.

Very fair post.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 29, 2015, 10:29:12 PM
No, of course it wouldn't.

But it did shape the advice that he gave to the PJ ...

I disagree. British experts would have given the same advice to anyone. Search the last place a child was seen, any suspects and famly residences and surroundng areas with as many resources as they are able to. After three months British police wold have turned it into a murder enquiry long time before anyway.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 29, 2015, 10:37:12 PM
Interesting theory. What I find incredulous is the notion that he stashed the body, called the world's media and then picked the body up a few weeks later and took it to another location, because this is what it would involve. Would take some balls and how would you know the body was hidden well enough for all that time whilst huge searches were taking place? I imagine there are many ways to conceal a body effectively such as weighing it down with stones and submerging in water and retrieving later. I've often felt quite suspicious of Amaral's involvement tbh concerning the dogs and his history... we are all guessing here though imo and one day perhaps we find out the truth. That's my main area of interest here to see this puzzle finally solved. Don't really care who did it as whoever did deserves to be punished. I think the McCanns should be given the benefit of the doubt given the information at hand otherwise of course they would be charged... and without the dog alerts there would be not much to debate imo.
8@??)(
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 10:38:10 PM
I disagree. British experts would have given the same advice to anyone. Search the last place a child was seen, any suspects and famly residences and surroundng areas with as many resources as they are able to. After three months British police wold have turned it into a murder enquiry long time before anyway.

I think most would agree with all that...and a murder enquiry rules out amaral's conclusions
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 10:42:51 PM
I disagree. British experts would have given the same advice to anyone. Search the last place a child was seen, any suspects and famly residences and surroundng areas with as many resources as they are able to. After three months British police wold have turned it into a murder enquiry long time before anyway.

This is the terms of reference that heads up each of Harrison's 3 reports:

Terms of reference to provide assistance to the Portuguese Judicial Police.

1. Assist the Judicial Police and GNR in assessing new or previous areas searched and give opinion on the best methods and assets to provide assurance as to the absence or presence of M McCann's concealed remains.
2. Act as a "critical friend" to the officer in charge of search planning and management and offer immediate and enduring peer review until case resolution or search suspension.
3. Assist in the development of framework models such as scenario based searching to aid homicide disposal searching.
4. Consider further opportunities or areas for search in order to locate M McCann as applicable to the latest intelligence and inform tion provided.
5. Where appropriate, provide independent and impartial advice on the enabling and disabling factors of specialist resources available either within Portugal or elsewhere in body detection.
6. To assist in decision support where requested by testing and challenging claims made by persons offering unorthodox search methods or devices to aid locating M McCann.
7. Where appropriate and requested, assist in advising on procedures to procure any non Portuguese specialist assets that are deemed to be relevant and useful.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 29, 2015, 10:54:00 PM
I don't see anything odd at all there Ferryman. But if you do, that's your opinion. (Which you're not making particularly clear). My orignal post stands. Mark Harrison's description of what the dog alerts could mean was very clear. He made no mention whatsoever about them possibly meanng "everday" normal substances you would find in any home.

But since we seem to be going round and round the Mulberry Bush, I shall leave it there.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 10:56:36 PM
This is the terms of reference that heads up each of Harrison's 3 reports:

Terms of reference to provide assistance to the Portuguese Judicial Police.

1. Assist the Judicial Police and GNR in assessing new or previous areas searched and give opinion on the best methods and assets to provide assurance as to the absence or presence of M McCann's concealed remains.
2. Act as a "critical friend" to the officer in charge of search planning and management and offer immediate and enduring peer review until case resolution or search suspension.
3. Assist in the development of framework models such as scenario based searching to aid homicide disposal searching.
4. Consider further opportunities or areas for search in order to locate M McCann as applicable to the latest intelligence and inform tion provided.
5. Where appropriate, provide independent and impartial advice on the enabling and disabling factors of specialist resources available either within Portugal or elsewhere in body detection.
6. To assist in decision support where requested by testing and challenging claims made by persons offering unorthodox search methods or devices to aid locating M McCann.
7. Where appropriate and requested, assist in advising on procedures to procure any non Portuguese specialist assets that are deemed to be relevant and useful.


eddie was brought in to find concealed remains....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 29, 2015, 11:00:10 PM
Harrison expressed his own opinion in the penultimate sentence and paragraph of his final report:

I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

Undecided, I think it would be fair to say ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on July 29, 2015, 11:10:41 PM
eddie was brought in to find concealed remains....

You got that right, almost. What it actually means is, well, what it says, absence or presence of (concealed) remains
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 11:13:31 PM
Amaral did not propose any hypothesis...he stated categorically that Maddie died in the apartmnet

That was his conclusion, he thought he had proved his hypothesis using the evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 29, 2015, 11:17:07 PM
That was his conclusion, he thought he had proved his hypothesis using the evidence.

I see you now say he thought he had proved.....so you accept he was wrong.....he proved nothing
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 29, 2015, 11:20:39 PM
Interesting theory. What I find incredulous is the notion that he stashed the body, called the world's media and then picked the body up a few weeks later and took it to another location, because this is what it would involve. Would take some balls and how would you know the body was hidden well enough for all that time whilst huge searches were taking place? I imagine there are many ways to conceal a body effectively such as weighing it down with stones and submerging in water and retrieving later. I've often felt quite suspicious of Amaral's involvement tbh concerning the dogs and his history... we are all guessing here though imo and one day perhaps we find out the truth. That's my main area of interest here to see this puzzle finally solved. Don't really care who did it as whoever did deserves to be punished. I think the McCanns should be given the benefit of the doubt given the information at hand otherwise of course they would be charged... and without the dog alerts there would be not much to debate imo.

The notion of a stranger having the capability to stash a body well enough for searchers who knew the area well, professionals, their dogs and scavengers not to come across is a highly unlikely one.

I think Mr Amaral knew that the dogs proved nothing … which led to his haste to have the Drs McCann declared arguidos just a couple of days before the change in the law which would have required that proof was presented to allow such a step.
He was gambling all that one of them, preferably Dr Kate McCann would crack and confess.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 29, 2015, 11:39:37 PM
We had already concluded, long before the Irish witness, that if those persons were involved, there was only one possibility. It pointed towards the beach. Not only because of what [locations] they knew but also due to the terrain's conditions. In that area, it is not easy to dig a hole. One either knows where holes already exist, or it is not possible, within a short time lapse, to decide where to place a corpse without knowing the area. If there was involvement, it would have been towards the beach area. Which is later corroborated by the Irish witness. (GA)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 29, 2015, 11:47:39 PM
I see you now say he thought he had proved.....so you accept he was wrong.....he proved nothing

I don't recall ever saying he was right. People assume that anyone doubting the McCann story supports the Amaral story. There are actually lots of possibilities.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 29, 2015, 11:51:32 PM
I don't recall ever saying he was right. People assume that anyone doubting the McCann story supports the Amaral story. There are actually lots of possibilities.

I don't support his time of death theory but the beach is the obvious place to hide something in the dark with nobody there. Smithman was not far away from it when seen.

Low tide on the night of the 3 May 2007 was at 2200hrs at 2m. The
maximum amount of beach would be accessible including the rocky outcrop.
High tide on the 4 May 2007 was at 0415hrs at 3.1 m. This would mean that
from 0200hrs onwards half the eastern part of the beach would be submerged
and so access to the rocky outcrop impossible on foot.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 29, 2015, 11:58:16 PM
We had already concluded, long before the Irish witness, that if those persons were involved, there was only one possibility. It pointed towards the beach. Not only because of what [locations] they knew but also due to the terrain's conditions. In that area, it is not easy to dig a hole. One either knows where holes already exist, or it is not possible, within a short time lapse, to decide where to place a corpse without knowing the area. If there was involvement, it would have been towards the beach area. Which is later corroborated by the Irish witness. (GA)

So basically what Mr Amaral is saying here is that anyone heading beachwards with a body to bury had to have local knowledge to have any chance of success.   

Quote
"In that area, it is not easy to dig a hole. One either knows where holes already exist, or it is not possible, within a short time lapse, to decide where to place a corpse without knowing the area."
Unquote

Leaving your prime suspect well and truly off the hook.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 12:02:19 AM
So basically what Mr Amaral is saying here is that anyone heading beachwards with a body to bury had to have local knowledge to have any chance of success.   

Quote
"In that area, it is not easy to dig a hole. One either knows where holes already exist, or it is not possible, within a short time lapse, to decide where to place a corpse without knowing the area."
Unquote

Leaving your prime suspect well and truly off the hook.

Nope he is saying the parents didn't know the place but they knew the beach as they'd been there. If they were involved the beach was their only possibility of hiding a corpse.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 30, 2015, 12:22:21 AM
Nope he is saying the parents didn't know the place but they knew the beach as they'd been there. If they were involved the beach was their only possibility of hiding a corpse.

Sorry ... I thought his preferred option for the parents was the freezer theory, seems he had used it before and it worked well.

With respect ... an absolutely ridiculous assertion that people who had briefly visited a holiday beach would know of all the hidey holes for a body which would defeat local amateur (who really did know the areas to search) and professional searchers and their dogs alike.

Not only unlikely but an impossibility.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 12:34:23 AM
Sorry ... I thought his preferred option for the parents was the freezer theory, seems he had used it before and it worked well.

With respect ... an absolutely ridiculous assertion that people who had briefly visited a holiday beach would know of all the hidey holes for a body which would defeat local amateur (who really did know the areas to search) and professional searchers and their dogs alike.

Not only unlikely but an impossibility.

Hard to find a freezer outside at 10pm. That theory would be move from hiding place to inside.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 12:42:14 AM
July 17, 2015

Prosecutors repeatedly said that Jerice Hunter tried to make herself the victim by reporting Jhessye Shockley missing after she killed the 5-year-old.

A jury agreed Monday when it convicted Hunter of abusing and killing her daughter while Hunter was pregnant with another child.

The verdict was the culmination of a trial in which prosecutors were unable to produce an eyewitness to the killing or Jhessye's body. Although prosecutors said it was unclear when or how Hunter killed Jhessye, they said Hunter put the girl's body in a suitcase that she dumped in a Tempe garbage bin.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2015/04/27/jerice-hunter-trial-juror-question-abrk/26457663/

Prosecutors called Dennis Hallworth to the stand on Wednesday afternoon because Hallworth and his specially trained dog Casey searched the car, dumpster and carpet sample for the scent of human decay in November 2011.

Casey, a golden retriever, had been certified for six years at the time of the search. Hallworth, a volunteer with the Maricopa County Sheriff's posse, described the process of the day Casey searched for a cadaver scent in depth to the jury and said that Casey alerted to the scent of human decay in the trunk of Abdelgadir's vehicle, the carpet sample from the master bedroom closet and the dark brown dumpster Abdelgadir said Hunter threw the suitcase into.

Casey is trained to distinguish between human and animal scent, Hallworth said.

Earlier this week, Hunter's neighbor Somia Abdelgadir testified that she drove Hunter to Tempe to sell a suitcase full of clothes, the same suitcase she later dumped in a trash bin at an apartment complex.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/glendale/2015/04/08/jerice-hunter-trial-jhessye-shockley-abrk/25472801/
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on July 30, 2015, 12:50:08 AM
Going way off topic here. Please get back on track. Thank you
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 12:59:19 AM
Going way off topic here. Please get back on track. Thank you

Off-topic how? A cadaver dog alerted to the car boot, closet/wardrobe in the parent bedroom and a bin. Amaral said Eddie alerted to the wardrobe and car boot for a cadaver. This case has similarities to the McCann case dog alerts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 30, 2015, 01:10:16 AM
Something missing from Amaral's theory re the sofa and cupboard dog alerts -
He does not give a reason why someone would put something in a cupboard.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 30, 2015, 06:32:25 AM
Off-topic how? A cadaver dog alerted to the car boot, closet/wardrobe in the parent bedroom and a bin. Amaral said Eddie alerted to the wardrobe and car boot for a cadaver. This case has similarities to the McCann case dog alerts.

There was no alert to the car boot despite copious encouragement and repeated direction by Grime suggestive that he (Grime!) would have liked Eddie to react to the car boot.

Eddie's only reaction was to spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key.

(Oh!  And good dog, Eddie!)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 07:50:07 AM
Off-topic how? A cadaver dog alerted to the car boot, closet/wardrobe in the parent bedroom and a bin. Amaral said Eddie alerted to the wardrobe and car boot for a cadaver. This case has similarities to the McCann case dog alerts.

And what amaral said was not true. Amaral must know now he has lied. This has lead to comments such as this..


Question 45

16 hours ago

45. When the sniffer dog marked the scent of corpse coming from the vehicle you hired a month after the disappearance, did you say you couldn’t explain any more than you already had?



I don't see amaral as being an honourable man and someone searching for the truth when he knows he has unfairly tarnished the McCanns with lies. This really is what the trial has been about...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 08:24:17 AM


No one knows what happened to Maddie...fact


amaral is claiming he does...and by doing so is fuelling a campaign of hatred...that's the subject of the thread
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 08:32:49 AM
I know where the hatred was, and it wasn't from Amaral or the people who don't believe the mccanns.

Get your facts right.

there is plenty of online hatred towards the mccanns fuelled by amarals lies re the dogs
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 30, 2015, 08:33:37 AM
there is plenty of online hatred towards the mccanns fuelled by amarals lies re the dogs

Rubbish.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 08:43:27 AM
Rubbish.

question...... How long should the McCanns suffer...Answer......For the rest of their miserable lives


I suppose you would describe that as just asking questions
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 30, 2015, 08:43:47 AM
there is plenty of online hatred towards the mccanns fuelled by amarals lies re the dogs

You are mistaken if you believe that everyone who doubts the McCann's story does so because of Amaral's 'lies about the dogs'. Doubts arose and were expressed long before the dogs went to Praia da Luz.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 30, 2015, 08:47:41 AM
question...... How long should the McCanns suffer...Answer......For the rest of their miserable lives


I suppose you would describe that as just asking questions

Whether you like it or not, people have opinions, and why shouldn't they ?

Your views are very often extremely objectionable, but you still continue to place them on here. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 08:48:20 AM
You are mistaken if you believe that everyone who doubts the McCann's story does so because of Amaral's 'lies about the dogs'. Doubts arose and were expressed long before the dogs went to Praia da Luz.


As I don't believe that and have never said it then I am not mistaken..it is a sign of your poor understanding of what I post that you should say that.

What I actually said was that amaral has fuelled the hatred towards the McCanns with his lies...and I don't think anyone could deny that...the evidence is very clear
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 30, 2015, 08:48:42 AM
You are mistaken if you believe that everyone who doubts the McCann's story does so because of Amaral's 'lies about the dogs'. Doubts arose and were expressed long before the dogs went to Praia da Luz.

The mere fact that you put the words lies about the dogs in inverted commas suggests you doubt Amaral lied.

At most charitable, Amaral's interpretation of the work of the dogs was incompetent; at worst, he lied.

Take your pick.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 08:49:55 AM
Whether you like it or not, people have opinions, and why shouldn't they ?

Your views are very often extremely objectionable, but you still continue to place them on here. 8)-)))

people are entitled to opinions but depending on those opinions they may not have the right to express them...that is something some people do not seem to understand
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 08:52:24 AM
A little later, Eddie is examining the floor in the parents' bedroom, near the wardrobe, when he lets out a strident howl, indicating that he has detected a cadaver odour. The investigators have hardly recovered from their amazement, when another, equally impressive, howl startles them. This time, Eddie has picked out that same odour under the window, just behind the sofa, on one of the walls in the lounge. That evening, in apartment 5A, the investigators begin to glimpse what might have happened.

That is lies form amaral's book...eddie reacts to blood as well...there is absolutely no confirmation that eddie was alerting to cadaver...yet amaral claims he is.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 30, 2015, 09:13:27 AM
A little later, Eddie is examining the floor in the parents' bedroom, near the wardrobe, when he lets out a strident howl, indicating that he has detected a cadaver odour. The investigators have hardly recovered from their amazement, when another, equally impressive, howl startles them. [/u]This time, Eddie has picked out that same odour under the window, just behind the sofa, on one of the walls in the lounge. That evening, in apartment 5A, the investigators begin to glimpse what might have happened.

That is lies form amaral's book...eddie reacts to blood as well...there is absolutely no confirmation that eddie was alerting to cadaver...yet amaral claims he is.


Eddie never did let out ''strident howls'' - he barked.      Not the same thing at all.  I can only presume he thought 'strident howls' would sound more convincing/impressive/dramatic to his readers  -  than simply stating .. 'he barked' - even if it was completely untrue. 



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 30, 2015, 09:16:51 AM

As I don't believe that and have never said it then I am not mistaken..it is a sign of your poor understanding of what I post that you should say that.

What I actually said was that amaral has fuelled the hatred towards the McCanns with his lies...and I don't think anyone could deny that...the evidence is very clear

OK, so people were already questioning the McCann's story. You are saying this was intensified once Amaral's opinions became known. When did his opinions become known and what measure have you used to determine the intensification of questioning at that time?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 30, 2015, 09:21:10 AM
The mere fact that you put the words lies about the dogs in inverted commas suggests you doubt Amaral lied.

At most charitable, Amaral's interpretation of the work of the dogs was incompetent; at worst, he lied.

Take your pick.

Lying requires intent to deceive. I don't actually think the guy intended to deceive when discussing the dogs. He also had other reasons for suspicion, let's not forget. For him the dogs didn't arouse his suspicions they confirmed them.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 30, 2015, 09:22:46 AM
The mere fact that you put the words lies about the dogs in inverted commas suggests you doubt Amaral lied.

At most charitable, Amaral's interpretation of the work of the dogs was incompetent; at worst, he lied.

Take your pick.

 8((()*/

In a nutshell ferryman
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 30, 2015, 09:23:46 AM
Lying requires intent to deceive. I don't actually think the guy intended to deceive when discussing the dogs. He also had other reasons for suspicion, let's not forget. For him the dogs didn't arouse his suspicions they confirmed them.

So how would you explain Amaral's misinterpretation of Harrison's role in the investigation?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 30, 2015, 09:36:17 AM
Lying requires intent to deceive. I don't actually think the guy intended to deceive when discussing the dogs. He also had other reasons for suspicion, let's not forget. For him the dogs didn't arouse his suspicions they confirmed them.

In order to claim his suspicions were confirmed -  he had to 'cherry pick' the parts re the dogs which suited him - and turn a blind eye to the parts which cast serious doubt on his suspicions.     That's not proper policework IMO.

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2015, 09:43:06 AM
In order to claim his suspicions were confirmed -  he had to 'cherry pick' the parts re the dogs which suited him - and turn a blind eye to the parts which cast serious doubt on his suspicions.     That's not proper policework IMO.

Very well put.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 09:43:31 AM
OK, so people were already questioning the McCann's story. You are saying this was intensified once Amaral's opinions became known. When did his opinions become known and what measure have you used to determine the intensification of questioning at that time?


No I didn't say it was intensified...another mistake by you...I said it was fuelled...and fuelled it was...

When those who suspected the mccanns were told that there was proof that Maddie died in the apartment then their suspicions re the parents were given a certain amount of credibility...problem was what amaral said was not true...he has therefore deceived people. There are donors on his site donating on the strength of cadaver odour...amaral has deceived them.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 30, 2015, 09:44:04 AM
In order to claim his suspicions were confirmed -  he had to 'cherry pick' the parts re the dogs which suited him - and turn a blind eye to the parts which cast serious doubt on his suspicions.     That's not proper policework IMO.

How do you think police function ?

Let's look at SY.

They don't even know what crime took place, yet they cherry pick abduction. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 09:44:59 AM
How do you think police function ?

Let's look at SY.

They don't even know what crime took place, yet they cherry pick abduction. %£&)**# %£&)**# %£&)**#

they have looked at the evidence and decided what is most probable...that is not cherry picking
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 09:47:52 AM
There was a horrid smell reported in that car and the boot was left open!

The theory is simple: Keela detected Madeleine'a blood in the car boot. For that to happen in a car rented nearly a month after her disappearance the body was hidden on the beach then moved inside and stored in a freezer or her missing pink blanket with blood on was put in the boot re fibres and hairs found. Keela only alerts to human blood and the preliminary report said it matched (15 out of 19 alleles) Madeleine's profile and not any of the other family members.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 30, 2015, 09:52:07 AM
There was a horrid smell reported in that car and the boot was left open!

The theory is simple: Keela detected Madeleine'a blood in the car boot. For that to happen in a car rented nearly a month after her disappearance the body was hidden on the beach then moved inside and stored in a freezer or her missing pink blanket with blood on was put in the boot re fibres and hairs found. Keela only alerts to human blood and the preliminary report said it matched (15 out of 19 alleles) Madeleine's profile and not any of the other family members.

A bag of meat burst open in the boot of the car and the meat went off in the heat.

Hence the smell.

It's all in the files ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 09:53:06 AM
There was a horrid smell reported in that car and the boot was left open!

The theory is simple: Keela detected Madeleine'a blood in the car boot. For that to happen in a car rented nearly a month after her disappearance the body was hidden on the beach then moved inside and stored in a freezer or her missing pink blanket with blood on was put in the boot re fibres and hairs found. Keela only alerts to human blood and the preliminary report said it matched (15 out of 19 alleles) Madeleine's profile and not any of the other family members.

it didn't say that...cite ...if the 15 didn't match her family it would not have matched Maddie...and of course no blood was recovered
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 09:53:17 AM
A bag of meat burst open in the boot of the car and the meat went off in the heat.

Hence the smell.

It's all in the files ....

Eddie and Keela don't alert to that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 30, 2015, 09:54:21 AM
Eddie and Keela don't alert to that.

Indeed.

Eddie never alerted to the boot of the car.

(Good dog, Eddie!)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 30, 2015, 10:00:47 AM
they have looked at the evidence and decided what is most probable...that is not cherry picking

You don't know that and unless the crime is known, which it isn't, it's just poor policing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on July 30, 2015, 10:07:14 AM
There was a horrid smell reported in that car and the boot was left open!

The theory is simple: Keela detected Madeleine'a blood in the car boot. For that to happen in a car rented nearly a month after her disappearance the body was hidden on the beach then moved inside and stored in a freezer or her missing pink blanket with blood on was put in the boot re fibres and hairs found. Keela only alerts to human blood and the preliminary report said it matched (15 out of 19 alleles) Madeleine's profile and not any of the other family members.

Oh dear - Groundhog day again.  It's clear to me PF that you either don't read or choose to ignore the explanations re the alerts in the boot both from the FSS and other posters who have explained it numerous times.

If there had been cadaverscent that strong present in the car then Eddie would have alerted to it.  He did not.  The material which Keela alerted to was so tiny FSS could not say what it was - only that it was 'cellular material. It is only the fact that Keela only alerted to blood that it is assumed that is what it was.

A statement by an anonymous person which is not in the files - and which IIRC Amaral claimed was handed to him after he was removed is not credible evidence IMO.    (from memory so happy to be corrected if necessary)

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2015, 10:07:47 AM
TOPIC.  This Thread is wandering off again.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 30, 2015, 10:16:00 AM
TOPIC.  This Thread is wandering off again.

It needs a collar and lead perhaps.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Lace on July 30, 2015, 10:16:40 AM
Oh dear - Groundhog day again.  It's clear to me PF that you either don't read or choose to ignore the explanations re the alerts in the boot both from the FSS and other posters who have explained it numerous times.

If there had been cadaverscent that strong present in the car then Eddie would have alerted to it.  He did not.  The material which Keela alerted to was so tiny FSS could not say what it was - only that it was 'cellular material. It is only the fact that Keela only alerted to blood that it is assumed that is what it was.

A statement by an anonymous person which is not in the files - and which IIRC Amaral claimed was handed to him after he was removed is not credible evidence IMO.    (from memory so happy to be corrected if necessary)

If you think about it,  if Madeleine had fallen from the sofa and hit her head so that it bled enough for some of the blood to have leaked under the tiles.

Does anyone honestly believe that there would have only been a tiny miniscule amount to be found?   For one it would have stayed in the grout.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 30, 2015, 11:08:34 AM
If you think about it,  if Madeleine had fallen from the sofa and hit her head so that it bled enough for some of the blood to have leaked under the tiles.

Does anyone honestly believe that there would have only been a tiny miniscule amount to be found?   For one it would have stayed in the grout.

More than that, Eddie would have reacted much more quickly (and with much less 'encouragement') than he did ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 11:22:52 AM
You don't know that and unless the crime is known, which it isn't, it's just poor policing.

no...just very poor understanding and logic by you
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 30, 2015, 11:34:16 AM
You are mistaken if you believe that everyone who doubts the McCann's story does so because of Amaral's 'lies about the dogs'. Doubts arose and were expressed long before the dogs went to Praia da Luz.

In what manner do you suppose ... "Doubts arose and were expressed long before the dogs went to Praia da Luz."

It couldn't possibly have been as a result of insider knowledge of what was actually happening within the investigation.

That wouldn't have been allowed under the secrecy law ... from which Madeleine McCann's case could have been exempt ... so the opinions and doubts you mention must have been formed by the incessant propaganda and lies for which the Portuguese press paid 'a source close to the investigation'.

Mr Amaral's use of the dogs appears to be less of an investigative tool and more of a weapon against her parents when seen against the background of this propaganda war. 

I believe he knew they did not constitute just cause which was one reason the magistrates never got the chance to rule on the new change to the law which came into force within days of making them arguidos; the other which would not have borne scrutiny was the alleged dream.

Making them arguidos was precipitate and designed to cause lasting damage, which it did both long and short term.  Which is quite extraordinary considering his own arguido status at the time.

It is little wonder that anyone forming opinions based on information fed to the press in 2007 and subsequently proved false are still asking questions as imo opinion they are displaying a less than adequate analytical grasp of how the media was used against Madeleine's family.

Everybody else realised they had been played for fools.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 30, 2015, 11:45:10 AM
no...just very poor understanding and logic by you

Very logical dave.

Try thinking outside the box.  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 11:53:01 AM
PRELIMINARY RESULTS
PREPARATION FOR THE INTERROGATIONS
Analyses of the residues collected following the visit by the dogs is entrusted to the English Forensic Science Service laboratory. To avoid any leaks of information, Stuart Prior, a senior officer with Leicestershire police, is responsible for liaison between the laboratory and José Freitas of Scotland Yard. The latter, who is with us, in Portimão, is passing on any relevant reports.

We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.

At the beginning of September, shortly before the McCann couple are placed under investigation, Superintendent Stuart Prior travels to Portimão to present the first of the two preliminary reports from the laboratory and to discuss the progress of the investigation.

At a meeting in our office, with the Portuguese and the English investigation team, Stuart expresses his disappointment over the test results. This is where the saga of the FSS reports begins. We read the part of the report dealing with the traces of blood lifted from the floor of apartment 5A, from behind the sofa and in the boot of the McCanns’ car
and we don’t agree with Stuart’s disappointment We talk about blood traces because the CSI dog is trained to find only that bodily fluid. The reports that support that decision are clear: the CSI dog was used to detect human blood. Low Copy Number, the technique used to determine the DNA of the samples, does not identify the nature of the bodily fluid they are derived from. But we know it’s definitely traces of blood and not other bodily fluids since the CSI dog is trained to detect only human blood.

In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!.

As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.

But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.

On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.

As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.

Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.

At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody. (TOTL)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 12:10:32 PM
PRELIMINARY RESULTS
PREPARATION FOR THE INTERROGATIONS
Analyses of the residues collected following the visit by the dogs is entrusted to the English Forensic Science Service laboratory. To avoid any leaks of information, Stuart Prior, a senior officer with Leicestershire police, is responsible for liaison between the laboratory and José Freitas of Scotland Yard. The latter, who is with us, in Portimão, is passing on any relevant reports.

We confidently wait for the evaluation reports from FSS. A few days after the samples are sent, we are informed that the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. We telephone the public minister to pass on this initial result and wait for the follow-up to the analyses and definite conclusions But the laboratory takes its time.

At the beginning of September, shortly before the McCann couple are placed under investigation, Superintendent Stuart Prior travels to Portimão to present the first of the two preliminary reports from the laboratory and to discuss the progress of the investigation.

At a meeting in our office, with the Portuguese and the English investigation team, Stuart expresses his disappointment over the test results. This is where the saga of the FSS reports begins. We read the part of the report dealing with the traces of blood lifted from the floor of apartment 5A, from behind the sofa and in the boot of the McCanns’ car
and we don’t agree with Stuart’s disappointment We talk about blood traces because the CSI dog is trained to find only that bodily fluid. The reports that support that decision are clear: the CSI dog was used to detect human blood. Low Copy Number, the technique used to determine the DNA of the samples, does not identify the nature of the bodily fluid they are derived from. But we know it’s definitely traces of blood and not other bodily fluids since the CSI dog is trained to detect only human blood.

In the first case, the laboratory considers that the result of the analysis is inconclusive because the samples gathered provide very little information when the DNA comes from more than one person. But all the confirmed DNA components match with the corresponding components in Madeleine’s DNA profile!.

As for the second case, after an explanation about the DNA components in Madeleine’s genetic profile, it concludes that 15 out of 19 markers in Madeleine’s profile are present in the sample examined. Only 4 short of 100% reliability. The FSS specialists qualify the results as, “complex,” and state that these 15 markers are not enough to conclude with certainty that it’s definitely Madeleine’s DNA profile, especially as Low Copy Number picked out a total of 37 in the sample. That means that at least three individuals contributed to this result.

But there was more in this first preliminary report. In the same report, the scientist went further and explained that in the profiles of many of the lab experts, elements from the DNA profile of Madeleine are present. This means that a major part of the DNA profile of any given person can be built by three donors. That is understandable. Two questions arose immediately. The first one: what good is a DNA profile in terms of criminal evidence, if it can be the combination of three or more donors? Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test? But the surprises from the preliminary reports were not to end there.

On the very day that interrogation of the McCann couple starts, a second preliminary report reaches us. Contrary to the first report, it accords more importance to the DNA profile of the blood lifted from the floor of the apartment. In that sample, the DNA came from more than one donor, but the confirmed DNA components match the corresponding components of Madeleine’s DNA profile.

As for the samples lifted from the boot of the car, there is no further mention of the 15 markers, as if they had never existed.

Suddenly, light was starting to be cast on the issue:either this LCN technique is not reliable or it’s simply much easier to explain the presence of Madeleine’s DNA in the apartment than in the boot of a car hired 24 days after her disappearance.

At our insistence, Stuart contacts the FSS and asks them if they think the Portuguese are idiots. We hear him saying: “With a lot less than that, we would have already arrested someone in England.” I look at my colleagues and see that they are as stupified as I am. In fact, in Portugal, it’s not so easy to arrest someone. We explain to Stuart that the McCanns interrogations would not result in detention. According to Portuguese law, the crimes of concealment of a corpse and simulating an abduction are not liable to remanding in custody. (TOTL)

you are quoting amaral's book..it's gobblydee gook...he doesn't understand the dna.....15 out of 19 being 4 short of 100%....what a ridiculous thing to say...does he actually understand what he is saying
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 30, 2015, 12:33:21 PM
Who seriously believes that Stuart Prior was first contradicted and corrected by Amaral on interpretation of the forensic results, then rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest?

Anyone?

Apart from Pathfinder?

And (possibly!) Amaral?

ETA: Is it just coincidence that we don't see Prior's report?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 30, 2015, 01:09:15 PM
In what manner do you suppose ... "Doubts arose and were expressed long before the dogs went to Praia da Luz."

It couldn't possibly have been as a result of insider knowledge of what was actually happening within the investigation.

That wouldn't have been allowed under the secrecy law ... from which Madeleine McCann's case could have been exempt ... so the opinions and doubts you mention must have been formed by the incessant propaganda and lies for which the Portuguese press paid 'a source close to the investigation'.

Mr Amaral's use of the dogs appears to be less of an investigative tool and more of a weapon against her parents when seen against the background of this propaganda war. 

I believe he knew they did not constitute just cause which was one reason the magistrates never got the chance to rule on the new change to the law which came into force within days of making them arguidos; the other which would not have borne scrutiny was the alleged dream.

Making them arguidos was precipitate and designed to cause lasting damage, which it did both long and short term.  Which is quite extraordinary considering his own arguido status at the time.

It is little wonder that anyone forming opinions based on information fed to the press in 2007 and subsequently proved false are still asking questions as imo opinion they are displaying a less than adequate analytical grasp of how the media was used against Madeleine's family.

Everybody else realised they had been played for fools.

Early doubts arose when it became clear that the parents had apparently neglected to take proper care of their children's safety and that early stories of jemmied shutters and broken doors reported by friends and family were untrue. No need for propoganda and lies, they admitted that they left the children alone each evening that week and that the shutters weren't jemmied and no doors were broken.

Amaral's opinion of the dog alerts didn't enter into it at that stage.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 30, 2015, 02:03:51 PM
Who seriously believes that Stuart Prior was first contradicted and corrected by Amaral on interpretation of the forensic results, then rang the FSS to berate them on the subject of the PJ's powers of arrest?

Anyone?

Apart from Pathfinder?

And (possibly!) Amaral?

ETA: Is it just coincidence that we don't see Prior's report?

Prior's report would be in the restricted files. As Amaral's understanding of English appears to be rudimentary, it's hearsay at best. It's not even clear if he was even there.

Since when would serving UK police officers be allowed to testify in an overseas civil case without Home Office clearance in a case that was already a diplomatic nightmare? Particularly one involving two senior investigating officers involved in different scandals.

I have yet to discover what Amaral's "ace" actually was. My best guess is the tiny extract (without surrounding context) from Rainbow's - sub-judice - report suggesting that Gerry should be investigated in view of his contradictory statements.

Well, you don't need to be Einstein to work out that those closest to a missing child need to be investigated. What Rainbow quite possibly didn't know is that the statements were not verbatim and that it is highly unlikely timewise that Gerry could have read a translated written version before signing on the dotted line on the original PT version.



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 02:16:06 PM
Prior's report would be in the restricted files. As Amaral's understanding of English appears to be rudimentary, it's hearsay at best. It's not even clear if he was even there.

Since when would serving UK police officers be allowed to testify in an overseas civil case without Home Office clearance in a case that was already a diplomatic nightmare? Particularly one involving two senior investigating officers involved in different scandals.

I have yet to discover what Amaral's "ace" actually was. My best guess is the tiny extract (without surrounding context) from Rainbow's - sub-judice - report suggesting that Gerry should be investigated in view of his contradictory statements.

Well, you don't need to be Einstein to work out that those closest to a missing child need to be investigated. What Rainbow quite possibly didn't know is that the statements were not verbatim and that it is highly unlikely timewise that Gerry could have read a translated written version before signing on the dotted line on the original PT version.


I believe rainbow said that Gerry was a lead that should be investigated
But that the remark ...due to inconsistencies was added by amarals lawyer
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 30, 2015, 02:19:11 PM
Early doubts arose when it became clear that the parents had apparently neglected to take proper care of their children's safety and that early stories of jemmied shutters and broken doors reported by friends and family were untrue. No need for propoganda and lies, they admitted that they left the children alone each evening that week and that the shutters weren't jemmied and no doors were broken.

Amaral's opinion of the dog alerts didn't enter into it at that stage.

I'm sure the swinger allegations, implied paedophilia and the expert body language analyses of the police wives had nothing at all to do with forming the opinions still so dearly held by the sceptics.

That there are those still in denial that most of the early headlines were deliberate lies and who still believe nonsense such as that being disseminated by Pathfinder from Mr Amaral's book shows that there is something lacking and perhaps they have spent over eight years asking the wrong questions of people who only appear to have access to the wrong answers or the answers that suit them.

Quote ... the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. G Amaral:   Unquote

The unadulterated misinterpretation of the results from the expensive visit of the dogs to Praia da Luz is the lynch pin of Mr Amaral's theory ... how much credence do you think should be given to the above excerpt from his book in the light of what we know from the FSS Report.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 30, 2015, 03:12:17 PM

Whenever we do a dog thread there is always discussion about the training of VRD and what may or may not have been the reason for Eddie's alerts ... I found this item from a blog which gives an explanation of just how this individual trains her dogs, I found it to be of interest.

It seems any human detritus at all will emit the scents to which a VRD is trained to alert which broadens the scope for alerts to be made which do not necessarily have to be cadaver.



**Snip

3) Getting the Scent Source

This is the tricky part of Cadaver training. You are training your dog to find and alert on decomposing human tissue.

For that, I need decomposing human tissue. Some may argue they can train with a psuedo-scent or pig scent, but I want to know that my dog has trained on human scent and only human scent.

This doesn't mean you keep arms and legs in your garage! You can, and should, train your dog on multiple sources of decomposing human tissue. Some are easier to obtain than others.

Decomposing bodies outside seep into the soil and leave a blackened oily film over the grass. Long after the body has been removed to the medical examiner's office, that "decomp" soil will still be there. It still smells like a decaying human body because it is filled with "decomp soup."   This decomp soil makes an excellent training source.

Placentas make another wonderful training tool. At the moment Daughter has three placentas in the freezer that came from friends. Knowing the placentas are used for training search dogs, she hits up her pregnant friends for source material.

Teeth are a must. Many scenes that call for search dogs are "bone calls."  Someone finds a human bone and we must scour the area on a bizarre Easter egg hunt for other human bones. Most of the time these have been scattered by scavengers.  There is very little, if any, tissue left on the bones. Because of this, your dog must learn to hunt for bones and teeth.

Yesterday Son's Girlfriend had 4 wisdom teeth removed.  Guess who gets those teeth? Yes, it says something about a family when they collect cadaver material together!

For years Kona trained with a segment of my neice's mummified umbilical cord.

Training a Cadaver Dog turns you into a family of Body Snatchers. No, you're not stealing from corpses. Aside from the fact that it isn't legal, talk about bad Karma! (shudder)

http://farmfreshforensics.com/csi_blog?blogstart=89
 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 30, 2015, 03:55:27 PM
I'm sure the swinger allegations, implied paedophilia and the expert body language analyses of the police wives had nothing at all to do with forming the opinions still so dearly held by the sceptics.

That there are those still in denial that most of the early headlines were deliberate lies and who still believe nonsense such as that being disseminated by Pathfinder from Mr Amaral's book shows that there is something lacking and perhaps they have spent over eight years asking the wrong questions of people who only appear to have access to the wrong answers or the answers that suit them.

Quote ... the DNA of the blood found in the boot of the McCanns’ car shows a significant match – 50% – with Gerald’s, which means that it is definitely the blood of one of his children. G Amaral:   Unquote

The unadulterated misinterpretation of the results from the expensive visit of the dogs to Praia da Luz is the lynch pin of Mr Amaral's theory ... how much credence do you think should be given to the above excerpt from his book in the light of what we know from the FSS Report.

It was much simpler than that at the beginning. Just a story that didn't add up, that's all.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 04:48:57 PM
Whenever we do a dog thread there is always discussion about the training of VRD and what may or may not have been the reason for Eddie's alerts ... I found this item from a blog which gives an explanation of just how this individual trains her dogs, I found it to be of interest.

It seems any human detritus at all will emit the scents to which a VRD is trained to alert which broadens the scope for alerts to be made which do not necessarily have to be cadaver.



**Snip

3) Getting the Scent Source

This is the tricky part of Cadaver training. You are training your dog to find and alert on decomposing human tissue.

For that, I need decomposing human tissue. Some may argue they can train with a psuedo-scent or pig scent, but I want to know that my dog has trained on human scent and only human scent.

This doesn't mean you keep arms and legs in your garage! You can, and should, train your dog on multiple sources of decomposing human tissue. Some are easier to obtain than others.

Decomposing bodies outside seep into the soil and leave a blackened oily film over the grass. Long after the body has been removed to the medical examiner's office, that "decomp" soil will still be there. It still smells like a decaying human body because it is filled with "decomp soup."   This decomp soil makes an excellent training source.

Placentas make another wonderful training tool. At the moment Daughter has three placentas in the freezer that came from friends. Knowing the placentas are used for training search dogs, she hits up her pregnant friends for source material.

Teeth are a must. Many scenes that call for search dogs are "bone calls."  Someone finds a human bone and we must scour the area on a bizarre Easter egg hunt for other human bones. Most of the time these have been scattered by scavengers.  There is very little, if any, tissue left on the bones. Because of this, your dog must learn to hunt for bones and teeth.

Yesterday Son's Girlfriend had 4 wisdom teeth removed.  Guess who gets those teeth? Yes, it says something about a family when they collect cadaver material together!

For years Kona trained with a segment of my neice's mummified umbilical cord.

Training a Cadaver Dog turns you into a family of Body Snatchers. No, you're not stealing from corpses. Aside from the fact that it isn't legal, talk about bad Karma! (shudder)

http://farmfreshforensics.com/csi_blog?blogstart=89

Why don't you ask the FBI about Eddie and his top marks at their body farm for detecting human cadavers and to MG why Eddie alerted to clothes with no blood on them?

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year. The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated. Mr Grime told the court that Eddie’s nose is so sensitive that if someone touched a dead body and then touched a piece of paper before hiding it, Eddie would be able to locate the paper using his sense of smell.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 30, 2015, 04:50:35 PM
It was much simpler than that at the beginning. Just a story that didn't add up, that's all.

Why didn't it add up?

Who provided the twos which when the additions were calculated made twenty two not four.



Quote:

There are other drawbacks—for example, Portugal has no DNA data banks or national missing-child alerts.

Moreover, Praia da Luz is not the ideal venue for a topflight criminal investigation.
Gonçalo Amaral, who for five months was the senior detective in the case, is himself involved in another legal battle.
He is accused of covering up a beating by his subordinates of a Portuguese woman who was ultimately convicted of killing her own child.
Locally there are no cadaver dogs trained in tracking human blood or remains; after Madeleine vanished, local residents actually used household pets under the guidance of police with drug-sniffing dogs.

“Let me tell you, I know a lot about detective dogs, and I don’t know why the police would want anyone bringing their pets to assist,” says Robert Tucker, who runs a New York security firm.  Unquote:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=post;quote=259306;topic=6311.1680


There was no need to delay the introduction of the British dogs.  They could have been in Praia da Luz at a time which could have made all the difference to whether or not Madeleine McCann was found in the days after she vanished from her bed.

Perhaps there is room for the sceptics to direct their questions to why that particular anomaly was not addressed ... was there any good reason to turn down the good offices of 'the two best search dogs in the world' and instead place reliance on searchers' pets?

 


Maddie hunt: Send in dogs The Sun
 
By Ian Hepburn and John Askill
Published: 23 May 2007
 
Stubborn Portuguese police chiefs are refusing to let the world's best sniffer dogs join the hunt for Madeleine McCann.
 
Senior British cops last night urged officers leading the inquiry to accept help from UK dog teams before it is too late.
 
Two dogs attached to Britain's National Policing Improvement Agency have developed such powerful tracking skills they can follow a scent for miles, even one up to 28 days old.
 
By sniffing an item of Maddie's clothing, they could trace a trail that might finally unlock the mystery of the four-year-old's disappearance.
 
Police in the Algarve appear no nearer to finding Maddie 20 days after she was snatched from her bed in the family's holiday apartment in Praia da Luz. But the sniffer dogs are still being snubbed.
 
A senior UK police source said: "It is an absolute scandal, time is fast running out for this little girl.
 
"These dogs have immense capability. Their tracking skills are among the finest in the world.
 
"The dogs were put on standby to go to the Algarve within days of Madeleine’s disappearance.
 
"You would expect the Portuguese to make use of the best resources available to them, but they repeatedly ignore the offers of assistance."
 
The dogs include a spaniel whose sense of smell is so keen she can sniff traces of blood on a weapon even after it has been scrubbed clean.
 
But the source warned: "They work most effectively within a 28-day time frame. After that the scent becomes much weaker."
 
Other British dog-handling teams did join the initial search for Maddie, and local cops later reported that dogs found a scent, but the trail was lost after 250 yards.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 30, 2015, 05:00:37 PM
Why don't you ask the FBI about Eddie and his top marks at their body farm for detecting human cadavers and to MG why Eddie alerted to clothes with no blood on them?

FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year. The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated. Mr Grime told the court that Eddie’s nose is so sensitive that if someone touched a dead body and then touched a piece of paper before hiding it, Eddie would be able to locate the paper using his sense of smell.

I have often seen that claim made for Eddie.
I have often seen a request for a cite to substantiate the claim being made.
I have never seen anything to prove what you claim for Eddie is true ... I have seen Morse's qualifications officially and independently endorsed ... I have never seen any independent endorsement for Eddie.

Interesting though to notice the ease with which cadaver scent contamination can be transferred. 

I also noticed that in Mr Roses's case a body was found proving Eddie right.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 30, 2015, 05:17:02 PM
you are quoting amaral's book..it's gobblydee gook...he doesn't understand the dna.....15 out of 19 being 4 short of 100%....what a ridiculous thing to say...does he actually understand what he is saying
Bwhahaha!


Did Amaral actually say that?


No wonder he got things so wrong.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 30, 2015, 05:32:27 PM
Bwhahaha!



Did Amaral actually say that?


No wonder he got things so wrong.

How much do you know about D.N.A. analysis in forensic science ?

Would it be more or less than Amaral ? &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2015, 05:35:57 PM
It was much simpler than that at the beginning. Just a story that didn't add up, that's all.

It adds up for me.  And I was a McCann Sceptic in the beginning.  Even more so after I saw The Levy Videos, which were seriously edited, although I didn't know that at the time, anymore than anyone else did.  Perhaps Amaral made the same mistake.

Jesus H, I am seriously ashamed of some of the things I said.

I finally came to my current beliefs by reading the value of "Sources", common sense and the use of logistics.
It simply isn't possible for The McCanns to have done what they were accused of.

Oh, and by the way, I very conveniently forgot that I had done the same thing that they did.  But at least I wasn't slow in admitting it when I did remember.

Amaral had an agenda with The Cipriano Case hanging over his head.  He needed a conviction to get himself out of the shit.  It really is as simple as that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 05:59:41 PM
I have often seen that claim made for Eddie.
I have often seen a request for a cite to substantiate the claim being made.
I have never seen anything to prove what you claim for Eddie is true ... I have seen Morse's qualifications officially and independently endorsed ... I have never seen any independent endorsement for Eddie.

Interesting though to notice the ease with which cadaver scent contamination can be transferred. 

I also noticed that in Mr Roses's case a body was found proving Eddie right.

Now you know how Eddie found the clue about CC. Moved neatly on the bed after handling a cadaver so it became cadaver contaminated. That pink blanket would have been alerted to had it been handled and moved but it's missing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on July 30, 2015, 06:09:42 PM
Now you know how Eddie found the clue about CC. Moved neatly on the bed after handling a cadaver so it became cadaver contaminated. That pink blanket would have been alerted to had it been handled and moved but it's missing.

When did this happen?  Before or during dinner?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 30, 2015, 06:15:31 PM
Now you know how Eddie found the clue about CC. Moved neatly on the bed after handling a cadaver so it became cadaver contaminated. That pink blanket would have been alerted to had it been handled and moved but it's missing.
So, everything that "Smithman" handled after hiding the body became contaminated, or did he come back, move CC, then immediately wash and disinfect his hands...? 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 30, 2015, 06:22:17 PM
Now you know how Eddie found the clue about CC. Moved neatly on the bed after handling a cadaver so it became cadaver contaminated. That pink blanket would have been alerted to had it been handled and moved but it's missing.

Kate gave the blanket to GNR dog-handlers so that they could (at least attempt to!) prime their dogs with Madeleine's scent.

It was never 'missing'.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 30, 2015, 06:22:47 PM
Now you know how Eddie found the clue about CC. Moved neatly on the bed after handling a cadaver so it became cadaver contaminated. That pink blanket would have been alerted to had it been handled and moved but it's missing.
You've got a short memory Pfinder

Eddie picked Ccat up and threw it up in the air.  He didn't alert to it



Even when it was placed at the bottom of the cupboard, Eddie sniffed really close, inches from it, twice, but did not alert either time.

Later, after Martin G had insisted Eddie checked the counter above,  he alerted to a pile of folders, papers on the top of the cupboard counter.  These were feet away from CCat.

Martin mistakenly took that as an alert to CCat.

Eddie was alerting to the papers.


Eddie DID NOT alert to CCat.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 30, 2015, 06:50:38 PM
Now you know how Eddie found the clue about CC. Moved neatly on the bed after handling a cadaver so it became cadaver contaminated. That pink blanket would have been alerted to had it been handled and moved but it's missing.

Do you know offhand if any of the people who like to ask questions have gone to the bother to ascertain why Mr Amaral did not invite the dogs in when they were offered at a time when they might actually have made a positive contribution to finding Madeleine McCann?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 30, 2015, 07:07:10 PM
Do you know offhand if any of the people who like to ask questions have gone to the bother to ascertain why Mr Amaral did not invite the dogs in when they were offered at a time when they might actually have made a positive contribution to finding Madeleine McCann?

Do you have a source telling us that the dogs were offered in May (apart from 'A senior police spokesperson' quoted in The Sun for obvious reasons)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 30, 2015, 07:17:53 PM
Do you have a source telling us that the dogs were offered in May (apart from 'A senior police spokesperson' quoted in The Sun for obvious reasons)
Could you please explain what you mean by "for obvious reasons"?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 30, 2015, 07:25:00 PM
Could you please explain what you mean by "for obvious reasons"?  Thanks.

That's not a reliable source.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 30, 2015, 07:35:51 PM
That's not a reliable source.
I get you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 30, 2015, 07:38:46 PM
That's not a reliable source.

If the Sun is not reliable enough for you on this occasion how did they know about 'the best dogs in the world' when the newspaper hit the stands on 23 May 2007 before Eddie and Keela had set a doggy paw on Portuguese soil?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 30, 2015, 07:46:43 PM
If the Sun is not reliable enough for you on this occasion how did they know about 'the best dogs in the world' when the newspaper hit the stands on 23 May 2007 before Eddie and Keela had set a doggy paw on Portuguese soil?

They had written about these dogs before, they were big news apparently with Keela earning more than the Chief Constable of Yorkshire. Just follow Brietta's original link, it's all there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 30, 2015, 07:48:39 PM
They had written about these dogs before, they were big news apparently with Keela earning more than the Chief Constable of Yorkshire. Just follow Brietta's original link, it's all there.
But we can dismiss this as hogwash as it was in the Sun, correct?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on July 30, 2015, 08:11:51 PM
Do you know offhand if any of the people who like to ask questions have gone to the bother to ascertain why Mr Amaral did not invite the dogs in when they were offered at a time when they might actually have made a positive contribution to finding Madeleine McCann?

The thought occurs that, in the early days, the English might have offered a sam dog, which would have been the dog-type with the best chance of finding Madeleine in the early days.

Although I don't know how soon after a disappearance you have to deploy such dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on July 30, 2015, 08:34:59 PM
But we can dismiss this as hogwash as it was in the Sun, correct?

How can a story without a named source be verified? It's just gossip.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 30, 2015, 10:04:50 PM
How much do you know about D.N.A. analysis in forensic science ?

Would it be more or less than Amaral ? &%+((£

from what amaral has said I would say I know more than amaral
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 10:27:54 PM
When did this happen?  Before or during dinner?

You will find out.

"When a body is frozen and thawed, Notman said, blood cells rupture and leak intracellular fluid."

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-07-18/news/mn-17063_1_frozen-depths
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 30, 2015, 10:37:03 PM
You will find out.

"When a body is frozen and thawed, Notman said, blood cells rupture and leak intracellular fluid."

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-07-18/news/mn-17063_1_frozen-depths
When and where was Madeleine frozen?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 30, 2015, 10:46:11 PM
When and where was Madeleine frozen?

Are you suggesting that because no one can say where or when (good song title) it could not have happened?
There is at least one unsolved case where it did happen but no one knows where and only approximately when.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 30, 2015, 10:47:38 PM
Are you suggesting that because no one can say where or when (good song title) it could not have happened?
There is at least one unsolved case where it did happen but no one knows where and only approximately when.
No, I'm asking Pathfinder where and when Madeleine was frozen, is that OK with you?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 30, 2015, 10:49:51 PM
Are you suggesting that because no one can say where or when (good song title) it could not have happened?
There is at least one unsolved case where it did happen but no one knows where and only approximately when.
PS: I take it from your post that we should consider all and any scenario as eminently possible re: Madeleine's fate: fed to pigs, abducted by hot air ballon, sewn into the body of a dog, thrown down a volcano, etc.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 30, 2015, 10:52:12 PM
No, I'm asking Pathfinder where and when Madeleine was frozen, is that OK with you?

Fine by me. I was just pointing out the question and answer will not prove much as it has been done before and the case remains unsolved.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 30, 2015, 10:56:45 PM
PS: I take it from your post that we should consider all and any scenario as eminently possible re: Madeleine's fate: fed to pigs, abducted by hot air ballon, sewn into the body of a dog, thrown down a volcano, etc.

I was saying don't give your customary sneer to something which has happened before.
You are always big on asking that it be shown something has happened before and if it hasn't it is unlikely it can happen.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 30, 2015, 10:57:19 PM
Fine by me. I was just pointing out the question and answer will not prove much as it has been done before and the case remains unsolved.
When I want your opinion and advice I'll be sure to ask you directly, but thanks anyway.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 30, 2015, 10:58:07 PM
You've got a short memory Pfinder
Eddie picked Ccat up and threw it up in the air.  He didn't alert to it
Even when it was placed at the bottom of the cupboard, Eddie sniffed really close, inches from it, twice, but did not alert either time.
Later, after Martin G had insisted Eddie checked the counter above,  he alerted to a pile of folders, papers on the top of the cupboard counter.  These were feet away from CCat.
Martin mistakenly took that as an alert to CCat.
Eddie was alerting to the papers.
Eddie DID NOT alert to CCat.
"Eddie DID NOT alert to CCat" I agree with you Sadie.

"Eddie was alerting to the papers". I agree the first of his two alerts in the villa was to that pile on the sideboard.
The pile he sniffs just before alerting.
However in that pile are folded clothes.

Everything in the box labelled "sala comum" came from IMO on the dining table or on that sideboard.
Check the other items to confirm (its easy to find the pillows, pillowcases, towels) 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 30, 2015, 10:59:25 PM
I was saying don't give your customary sneer to something which has happened before.
You are always big on asking that it be shown something has happened before and if it hasn't it is unlikely it can happen.
You really have picked up the wrong end of the stick Alice, now kindly butt out - I am quizzing Pathfinder on her/his beliefs, I am well aware that bodies have been frozen before, thanks.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 30, 2015, 11:55:49 PM
You really have picked up the wrong end of the stick Alice, now kindly butt out - I am quizzing Pathfinder on her/his beliefs, I am well aware that bodies have been frozen before, thanks.


You start with a KEY. They were given keys to the church so getting access to another property is certainly a possibility. You investigate sightings at unknown properties and the person who got them the keys and stored the car isn't mentioned once in their truth book. He was not questioned by the PJ. It's like he didn't exist! Will the yard finally investigate this KEY man.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 31, 2015, 01:45:29 AM
You start with a KEY. They were given keys to the church so getting access to another property is certainly a possibility. You investigate sightings at unknown properties and the person who got them the keys and stored the car isn't mentioned once in their truth book. He was not questioned by the PJ. It's like he didn't exist! Will the yard finally investigate this KEY man.
Aw Gawd, Pfinder, what new myth are you developing?


So you think the Church keys would fit other properties?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 31, 2015, 08:08:43 AM
You start with a KEY. They were given keys to the church so getting access to another property is certainly a possibility. You investigate sightings at unknown properties and the person who got them the keys and stored the car isn't mentioned once in their truth book. He was not questioned by the PJ. It's like he didn't exist! Will the yard finally investigate this KEY man.
So because they had keys to the church, they might also have had keys to a property with a freezer?  Blimey, that's a bit tenuous.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 31, 2015, 10:18:57 AM
You really have picked up the wrong end of the stick Alice, now kindly butt out - I am quizzing Pathfinder on her/his beliefs, I am well aware that bodies have been frozen before, thanks.

Then you will realise it is possible.
Butting out now O masterful one  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 31, 2015, 11:23:47 AM
Then you will realise it is possible.
Butting out now O masterful one  8(0(*
Anything's possible including throwing a body down a volcano but I thought we were sensible enough to limit our speculation to what is likely considering the circumstances of the case.  If you believe it is perfectly plausible that Madeleine's body was kept on her ice by her parents then that's your problem.  I prefer to live in the real world. 

PS: If you must challenge me on everything I write on this forum then fair enough, your choice, but don't expect me to roll over and die because of your supposedly superior intellect.   8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on July 31, 2015, 12:07:26 PM
Then you will realise it is possible.
Butting out now O masterful one  8(0(*

many things are possible and therefore we cannot 100% rule out alien abduction...according to Stephen as the crime is not determined everything should be investigated....should the UK govt therefore send a probe into space.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on July 31, 2015, 12:09:26 PM
many things are possible and therefore we cannot 100% rule out alien abduction...according to Stephen as the crime is not determined everything should be investigated....should the UK govt therefore send a probe into space.

Not into space dave.   8)--)) @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on July 31, 2015, 12:20:20 PM
Well, Amaral does seem rather fond of freezers...

So let's see... PF's "Smithman" carries the body down to the beach and luckily remembered a perfect hiding place from the previous day (or whenever they'd gone down for a walk and an ice cream). So perfect in fact that the GNR, volunteer searchers and the media posse never noticed it.

After a long day at the police station and with the media following their every move, "Smithman" 's plan is to stroll down to the beach with a suitcase / bag and put the now decomposing remains in it and carry it away. No one notices him doing that, either. Let's say that that takes it up to Saturday, when some reporter saw him leaving with a bag / suitcase and a toy bucket and spade.

Then what? Idea! Off to ask around the village if anyone has a working freezer big enough to hold a suitcase. Perhaps by this time, they'd gone off to buy some thick big black gravel bags and a saw (which no one found odd). Some unsuspecting soul who didn't know Smithman from Adam offers them keys to their large domestic (or commercial) freezer, that they hardly ever happened to use, but kept running anyway. Smithman promises that the suitcase will be removed in a month or so, just as soon as they hire a car and can escape from the ever-waiting paparazzi.

Amazingly, no one saw a thing. And Eddie, who'd gone sniffing all around the beach, never noticed anything, either.

Just how plausible is that?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 31, 2015, 02:03:59 PM
Well, Amaral does seem rather fond of freezers...

So let's see... PF's "Smithman" carries the body down to the beach and luckily remembered a perfect hiding place from the previous day (or whenever they'd gone down for a walk and an ice cream). So perfect in fact that the GNR, volunteer searchers and the media posse never noticed it.

After a long day at the police station and with the media following their every move, "Smithman" 's plan is to stroll down to the beach with a suitcase / bag and put the now decomposing remains in it and carry it away. No one notices him doing that, either. Let's say that that takes it up to Saturday, when some reporter saw him leaving with a bag / suitcase and a toy bucket and spade.

Then what? Idea! Off to ask around the village if anyone has a working freezer big enough to hold a suitcase. Perhaps by this time, they'd gone off to buy some thick big black gravel bags and a saw (which no one found odd). Some unsuspecting soul who didn't know Smithman from Adam offers them keys to their large domestic (or commercial) freezer, that they hardly ever happened to use, but kept running anyway. Smithman promises that the suitcase will be removed in a month or so, just as soon as they hire a car and can escape from the ever-waiting paparazzi.

Amazingly, no one saw a thing. And Eddie, who'd gone sniffing all around the beach, never noticed anything, either.

Just how plausible is that?
Perfectly plausible I'm sure - after all, bodies have been frozen before that means we can't rule it out.  Anything's possible. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 31, 2015, 02:51:22 PM
Well, Amaral does seem rather fond of freezers...

So let's see... PF's "Smithman" carries the body down to the beach and luckily remembered a perfect hiding place from the previous day (or whenever they'd gone down for a walk and an ice cream). So perfect in fact that the GNR, volunteer searchers and the media posse never noticed it.

After a long day at the police station and with the media following their every move, "Smithman" 's plan is to stroll down to the beach with a suitcase / bag and put the now decomposing remains in it and carry it away. No one notices him doing that, either. Let's say that that takes it up to Saturday, when some reporter saw him leaving with a bag / suitcase and a toy bucket and spade.

Then what? Idea! Off to ask around the village if anyone has a working freezer big enough to hold a suitcase. Perhaps by this time, they'd gone off to buy some thick big black gravel bags and a saw (which no one found odd). Some unsuspecting soul who didn't know Smithman from Adam offers them keys to their large domestic (or commercial) freezer, that they hardly ever happened to use, but kept running anyway. Smithman promises that the suitcase will be removed in a month or so, just as soon as they hire a car and can escape from the ever-waiting paparazzi.

Amazingly, no one saw a thing. And Eddie, who'd gone sniffing all around the beach, never noticed anything, either.

Just how plausible is that?

You investigate all possibilities. Nothing was was found outdoors so the next logical step is indoors.

"A witness claimed to have seen Gerry and me carrying a big black bag and acting suspiciously." (Madeleine)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on July 31, 2015, 03:12:42 PM
Anything's possible including throwing a body down a volcano but I thought we were sensible enough to limit our speculation to what is likely considering the circumstances of the case.  If you believe it is perfectly plausible that Madeleine's body was kept on her ice by her parents then that's your problem.  I prefer to live in the real world. 

PS: If you must challenge me on everything I write on this forum then fair enough, your choice, but don't expect me to roll over and die because of your supposedly superior intellect.   8(0(*

Just one more challenge for the hell of it.
You post at twice the rate I do so how does that work then ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 31, 2015, 03:13:26 PM
You investigate all possibilities. Nothing was was found outdoors so the next logical step is indoors.

"A witness claimed to have seen Gerry and me carrying a big black bag and acting suspiciously." (Madeleine)
Outdoors, presumably on the way to the freezer department at the local Lidl I expect.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on July 31, 2015, 06:57:24 PM
"Eddie DID NOT alert to CCat" I agree with you Sadie.

"Eddie was alerting to the papers". I agree the first of his two alerts in the villa was to that pile on the sideboard.
The pile he sniffs just before alerting.
However in that pile are folded clothes.

Everything in the box labelled "sala comum" came from IMO on the dining table or on that sideboard.
Check the other items to confirm (its easy to find the pillows, pillowcases, towels)
I dont think it was a pile of clothes but folders, but it is not clear.

There was a sheet of paper on top anyhow.   I wonder who put that there?

Was that what Eddie was alerting to?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on July 31, 2015, 07:25:22 PM
I dont think it was a pile of clothes but folders, but it is not clear.

There was a sheet of paper on top anyhow.   I wonder who put that there?

Was that what Eddie was alerting to?

We discussed it at length and studied many blown up stills and the consensus was that the (red?) item was not Sean's tee shirt but a folder in a pile of folders or papers with an identifying sheet on top.

Irrelevant anyway.
Everything connected to those searches would have been under severe attack in a trial ... that is if they even got to the stage of being allowed to be presented in court.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on July 31, 2015, 11:03:21 PM
I dont think it was a pile of clothes but folders, but it is not clear.

There was a sheet of paper on top anyhow.   I wonder who put that there?

Was that what Eddie was alerting to?
Yes the pile Eddie sniffs a moment before his first villa alert has a sheet of paper on top.
But underneath that are folded clothes IMO.
Work through the other items in the "sala comum" box.
They are all in the dining area.
Pillows. Yes. On the dining table.
Pillowcases. Yes. On the dining table.
Towels. Yes. On the dining table.
All the clothes in the "sala comum" box (included the alerted ones) are in the dining area.
Not in the lounge area (seperate box) and not in the bedrooms (seperate boxes)
Therefore it was not the cat that Eddie alerted to.
Therefore KM was telling the truth about the cat being on the bed.
Not lying as so many wrongly claim.
On this point I am on your side (proving KM is telling the truth about the crime scene)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 01, 2015, 08:50:20 PM
I have never seen such a flat pile, let alone so neatly folded too, bunch of clothes....also, why would a piece of paper have cadaver scent on it? Or  neat pile of clothes?

?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 01, 2015, 08:59:29 PM
I have never seen such a flat pile, let alone so neatly folded too, bunch of clothes....also, why would a piece of paper have cadaver scent on it? Or  neat pile of clothes?

?

A paper cut would be enough to do it for these dogs even if there was no discernible blood on the paper.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 01, 2015, 09:04:48 PM
Did Keela "confirm" this alert as blood then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 01, 2015, 09:35:51 PM
Did Keela "confirm" this alert as blood then?

Was she given the opportunity?

We only saw Eddie's performance at the villa.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 01, 2015, 09:46:22 PM
Did Keela "confirm" this alert as blood then?

We never saw Keela in there .... and I dont recall her being used.

Can anyone prove that she was used?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 01, 2015, 10:04:52 PM
Did Keela "confirm" this alert as blood then?

The CSI dog did not alert to the toy when screened separately. (MG)

Keela is only used if Eddie alerts. The only difference was on clothes screened separately. Keela detected no blood so when Eddie came next and alerted it suggests cadaver scent.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 01, 2015, 10:08:42 PM
Was she given the opportunity?

We only saw Eddie's performance at the villa.

No idea

But the dog searches IIRC reading somewhere were five hours plus, the video is less than half long. There is though nothing mentioned in the files apart from the fact that Mr Grine asked for the toy to be sent for forensics or kept for future forensics, I dont recall exactly
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 01, 2015, 10:23:01 PM
The CSI dog did not alert to the toy when screened separately. (MG)

Keela is only used if Eddie alerts. The only difference was on clothes screened separately. Keela detected no blood so when Eddie came next and alerted it suggests cadaver scent.
And neither did Eddie.  Martin Grime was mistaken.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 01, 2015, 10:28:58 PM
And neither did Eddie.  Martin Grime was mistaken.
Unless you are a professional dog handler I dont think somehow you are in any position to say whether a professional dog handler is mistaken. You can of course say it is your laymans opinion, which is fine

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 12:27:32 AM
Unless you are a professional dog handler I dont think somehow you are in any position to say whether a professional dog handler is mistaken. You can of course say it is your laymans opinion, which is fine
We watched the video carefully.  We all witnessed it mercury.  Even John agreed that Eddie did not alert to CCat  IIRC.

Eddie sniffed right by CCat in the cupboard and didn't blink an eyelid, but later when Martin indicated the counter well away from CCat he alerted.

And mercury, prior to all this Eddie had tossed CCat into the air and not alerted.   Why didn't he alert then?


Beyond doubt, Martin was mistaken
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: carlymichelle on August 02, 2015, 12:38:27 AM
We watched the video carefully.  We all witnessed it mercury.  Even John agreed that Eddie did not alert to CCat  IIRC.

Eddie sniffed right by CCat in the cupboard and didn't blink an eyelid, but later when Martin indicated the counter well away from CCat he alerted.

And mercury, prior to all this Eddie had tossed CCat into the air and not alerted.   Why didn't he alert then?


Beyond doubt, Martin was mistaken

who is we ??
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 12:48:23 AM
who is we ??
It was talked about for a while.  If you missed it, then you didn't look in those days .... or you failed to read the relevant posts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 02, 2015, 01:13:18 AM
who is we ??

Here you go Carly. If you missed it, at 4.04 is when he barks at the paperwork or whatever it is

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3076.msg112720#msg112720
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 01:38:08 AM
Here you go Carly. If you missed it, at 4.04 is when he barks at the paperwork or whatever it is

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3076.msg112720#msg112720
Thanks again Anna


And other relevant places on the video are at about 1.41-1.51 when Eddie twice throws CCat in the air without alerting.

Then at about 2.04 he runs past it and again at about 2.30, taking absolutely NO notice of it.  Cadavar scent?  I think NOT !!


CCat was then pplaced out of sight in the bottom of a cupboard and Eddie was taken past it twice.  3.44 and 3.52 approx.  Eddie sniffs around but smells nothing.  No alert

At about 4.04 after Martin has ordered him to check the cupboard counter top he finally alerts.  He barks at the paperwork or what ever it is.


CCat had no cadavar odour on it as you have seen, but the paperwork or what ever above seems to have.




At about 5.42, Martin takes CCat out of the cupboard and says that Eddie alerted to it.

He clearly did NOT, he alerted to something on the counter.    Martin was mistaken
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 02, 2015, 02:20:52 AM
What do peeps think about the second alert in the villa video. Possibly to a dining chair?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Angelo222 on August 02, 2015, 06:31:16 AM
Thanks again Anna


And other relevant places on the video are at about 1.41-1.51 when Eddie twice throws CCat in the air without alerting.

Then at about 2.04 he runs past it and again at about 2.30, taking absolutely NO notice of it.  Cadavar scent?  I think NOT !!


CCat was then pplaced out of sight in the bottom of a cupboard and Eddie was taken past it twice.  3.44 and 3.52 approx.  Eddie sniffs around but smells nothing.  No alert

At about 4.04 after Martin has ordered him to check the cupboard counter top he finally alerts.  He barks at the paperwork or what ever it is.


CCat had no cadavar odour on it as you have seen, but the paperwork or what ever above seems to have.




At about 5.42, Martin takes CCat out of the cupboard and says that Eddie alerted to it.

He clearly did NOT, he alerted to something on the counter.    Martin was mistaken

The cuddle cat episode was a bit if a fiasco if I'm honest and on this I agree with you Sadie.  To me the dog was already aware of the toy having just lifted it out of the toy basket and tossed it in the air.  He then knew the scent of the soft toy so when he scented it inside the cupboard, hey presto, he barked for it.  Not Grime and Eddie's finest moment imo
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 02, 2015, 08:31:09 AM
The cuddle cat episode was a bit if a fiasco if I'm honest and on this I agree with you Sadie.  To me the dog was already aware of the toy having just lifted it out of the toy basket and tossed it in the air.  He then knew the scent of the soft toy so when he scented it inside the cupboard, hey presto, he barked for it.  Not Grime and Eddie's finest moment imo

I think that is a fair assessment.

I must admit though that I am mystified why the cupboard door wasn't immediately opened to reveal CuddleCat when Eddie 'alerted'.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 02, 2015, 08:39:17 AM
What do peeps think about the second alert in the villa video. Possibly to a dining chair?

I don't rate the first 'alert' so who knows what Eddie had taken it into his head to bark at when he was in that corner.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 02, 2015, 08:55:08 AM
The clothes inspection is even more bizarre, IMO. There are items that he appears to have alerted to (and threw up in the air) which are not on the list (which the PJ had, not Grime), and items he simply nuzzled which are on it.

The very first item that got him excited was the little pair of blue shorts, followed by the little red T-shirt (seen being worn by Sean in at least one photo). The T-shirt is on the list, but not the blue shorts. His reaction to Kate's white top was not the same as his reaction to her trousers. He was very interested in what would appear to be one of G's T-shirts, but that didn't make the list.

Aside from one pair of knickers, there doesn't appear to have been any underwear. Why not? They may well not have been considered relevant for what they were seeking, but then neither was the toddler's outfit. Could underwear have deliberately not been packed in case Eddie gave false alerts?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 02, 2015, 09:02:49 AM
Unless you are a professional dog handler I dont think somehow you are in any position to say whether a professional dog handler is mistaken. You can of course say it is your laymans opinion, which is fine

Grime requested that the toy be forensically examined.

It never was.

Why not?

Or, an alternative question: if Grime did recommend that the toy be forensically examined (as he states in his rogatory interview) why was his instruction ignored?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 02, 2015, 09:09:37 AM
Grime requested that the toy be forensically examined.

It never was.

Why not?

Or, an alternative question: if Grime did recommend that the toy be forensically examined (as he states in his rogatory interview) why was his instruction ignored?

What could it possibly have revealed after Kate had been walking around with it in her hot and sweaty hands for three months and had recently washed it as it had become grubby and smelly? If it had been bagged on 3 May, there might have been something significant on it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on August 02, 2015, 09:23:55 AM
The clothes inspection is even more bizarre, IMO. There are items that he appears to have alerted to (and threw up in the air) which are not on the list (which the PJ had, not Grime), and items he simply nuzzled which are on it.

The very first item that got him excited was the little pair of blue shorts, followed by the little red T-shirt (seen being worn by Sean in at least one photo). The T-shirt is on the list, but not the blue shorts. His reaction to Kate's white top was not the same as his reaction to her trousers. He was very interested in what would appear to be one of G's T-shirts, but that didn't make the list.

Aside from one pair of knickers, there doesn't appear to have been any underwear. Why not? They may well not have been considered relevant for what they were seeking, but then neither was the toddler's outfit. Could underwear have deliberately not been packed in case Eddie gave false alerts?


IIRC Carana - the red t-shirt was listed by the PJ as belonging to Madeleine.   Was that (wishful thinking imo) ever corrected?

I'm still wondering how all the clothes that were contaminated just happened to have been packed in the same box.

I'm also still wondering why Eddie didn't alert to any of that clothing while it was in the villa - but then did after it had been in the possession of the PJ.

It seems to me that 'cherry picking' may have come into the decisions by the PJ on which articles Eddie alerted to.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 02, 2015, 09:45:59 AM

IIRC Carana - the red t-shirt was listed by the PJ as belonging to Madeleine.   Was that (wishful thinking imo) ever corrected?

I'm still wondering how all the clothes that were contaminated just happened to have been packed in the same box.

I'm also still wondering why Eddie didn't alert to any of that clothing while it was in the villa - but then did after it had been in the possession of the PJ.

It seems to me that 'cherry picking' may have come into the decisions by the PJ on which articles Eddie alerted to.

It's possible that Madeleine might have worn that tee-shirt at an earlier time (in her life!) but certainly not on that holiday ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 02, 2015, 10:15:39 AM
I just don't see the point of it in that instance. I can understand that it could be a useful exercise in certain cases, e.g., Eddie might have been quicker to spot a bag of blood-drenched old clothes that a perp had forgotten about than the police. Then Keela gets wheeled in and confirms blood, which then turns out to show the unexplained presence of a victim's blood / DNA on clothing belonging / known to have been worn by someone who'd denied any contact with the victim. In that case, the person is likely to have some explaining to do...

In this instance, what evidence were they even seeking? Regularly washed family clothes would hardly have revealed anything significant. A dried gooey mess that had seeped into the bottom of a case might have done, I suppose, but would probably not have needed a dog to notice it.

To put it as delicately as possible, it just seems like more of a demonstration of the potential use of the dogs for future cases...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on August 02, 2015, 10:24:57 AM
It's possible that Madeleine might have worn that tee-shirt at an earlier time (in her life!) but certainly not on that holiday ....

That's possible  -  but AFAIK Madeleine was very 'girly' and pink was her favourite colour.   I can't see her agreeing to wear what is obviously a boy's tee shirt.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 02, 2015, 10:54:34 AM
That's possible  -  but AFAIK Madeleine was very 'girly' and pink was her favourite colour.   I can't see her agreeing to wear what is obviously a boy's tee shirt.

'Madeleine was very girly'................


How would you know ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 02, 2015, 11:46:04 AM
Grime requested that the toy be forensically examined.

It never was.

Why not?

Or, an alternative question: if Grime did recommend that the toy be forensically examined (as he states in his rogatory interview) why was his instruction ignored?

No idea. He says he asked for it to be retained for future tests.What tests is also unclear.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 01:20:59 PM
The clothes inspection is even more bizarre, IMO. There are items that he appears to have alerted to (and threw up in the air) which are not on the list (which the PJ had, not Grime), and items he simply nuzzled which are on it.

The very first item that got him excited was the little pair of blue shorts, followed by the little red T-shirt (seen being worn by Sean in at least one photo). The T-shirt is on the list, but not the blue shorts. His reaction to Kate's white top was not the same as his reaction to her trousers. He was very interested in what would appear to be one of G's T-shirts, but that didn't make the list.

Aside from one pair of knickers, there doesn't appear to have been any underwear. Why not? They may well not have been considered relevant for what they were seeking, but then neither was the toddler's outfit. Could underwear have deliberately not been packed in case Eddie gave false alerts?
Eddie had previously been trained to alert to things from living people, like blood and urine.  He could not be untrained.

Two things strike me with that list
1)  The pair of little blue shorts. 
Children have accidents.  Was Eddie alerting to urine from a living human?

2)  Kates trousers. 
Kates scent would have been on the towel, or whatever was given to Eddie as his datum guide (sorry cant remember the correct expression).   He alerts to blood from a living person.   Kate is a woman.   Women lose blood.

I feel sure you get my gist without having to go into it in any more detail.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: John on August 02, 2015, 01:47:37 PM
Given the passage of time and the way in which the clothes were packed, any lawyer worth his salt would have had the entire fiasco kicked out of court.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 02, 2015, 03:14:07 PM
Given the passage of time and the way in which the clothes were packed, any lawyer worth his salt would have had the entire fiasco kicked out of court.

In a UK court... but not necessarily in a PT one, unless a defence lawyer could provide reliable counter evidence to prove the contrary. It's not just about raising "reasonable doubt".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 02, 2015, 05:02:32 PM
In a UK court... but not necessarily in a PT one, unless a defence lawyer could provide reliable counter evidence to prove the contrary. It's not just about raising "reasonable doubt".

Apart from the fact that the specialist dogs were called in at a considerable remove after the event and the crime scene had been let out to other families, the question is, would the searches have been conducted in the UK in the way they were in Portugal?

That the UK police saw fit to send the PJ instruction manuals after the searches were completed would seem to indicate that they saw shortcomings.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 02, 2015, 05:08:24 PM
That's possible  -  but AFAIK Madeleine was very 'girly' and pink was her favourite colour.   I can't see her agreeing to wear what is obviously a boy's tee shirt.
"For ages 2 to 3, height 98cm".
label on the aeroplane red T-shirt. 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME%20VIIIa_Processo_2110.jpg
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 05:36:04 PM
"For ages 2 to 3, height 98cm".
label on the aeroplane red T-shirt. 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME%20VIIIa_Processo_2110.jpg
Looks like it has shrunk a good deal then.


An aeroplane T-shirt for Madeleine?  On Red?


Seems unlikely, cos everything around Madeleine has been more of the fairy, teddy bear type stuff  .... and a ghastly pink.   Sorry Kate, but it did tend to be rather ghastly; maybe Madeleines choice?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 02, 2015, 09:11:03 PM
Looks like it has shrunk a good deal then.

An aeroplane T-shirt for Madeleine?  On Red?

Seems unlikely, cos everything around Madeleine has been more of the fairy, teddy bear type stuff  .... and a ghastly pink.   Sorry Kate, but it did tend to be rather ghastly; maybe Madeleines choice?
See PJ photo of the tshirt - it has short-sleeves.
See another photo of it- sleeves extend well below the elbows.
Reason is easy see label, 95cm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 02, 2015, 10:04:30 PM
Looks like it has shrunk a good deal then.


An aeroplane T-shirt for Madeleine?  On Red?


Seems unlikely, cos everything around Madeleine has been more of the fairy, teddy bear type stuff  .... and a ghastly pink.   Sorry Kate, but it did tend to be rather ghastly; maybe Madeleines choice?

Madeleine was into football and playing it with boys in PDL unless you can show all those photos of her with precious CC to prove it.

Louis Boyd couldn't believe that his new friend was so good at football. After all, she was only a girl. The three year old was having great fun tearing around with the pal he had met that afternoon. Her name was Madeleine McCann.

We feel so much for Maddies mum By Vicky and Louie Boyd (First Mag 19-05-2007)

(http://media2.picsearch.com/is?a2g-Xqe5eM30SSPUX-UlY07jXqJA2izokTnhn7srAHA&height=303)

See knees
(http://i4.loughboroughecho.net/news/article6183284.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Madeleine-McCann.jpg)

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 02, 2015, 10:25:29 PM
Madeleine was into football and playing it with boys in PDL unless you can show all those photos of her with precious CC to prove it.

Louis Boyd couldn't believe that his new friend was so good at football. After all, she was only a girl. The three year old was having great fun tearing around with the pal he had met that afternoon. Her name was Madeleine McCann.

We feel so much for Maddies mum By Vicky and Louie Boyd (First Mag 19-05-2007)

(http://media2.picsearch.com/is?a2g-Xqe5eM30SSPUX-UlY07jXqJA2izokTnhn7srAHA&height=303)

See knees
(http://i4.loughboroughecho.net/news/article6183284.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Madeleine-McCann.jpg)

Just to keep the record straight ... I think you may be referring to a mistake in Catriona Baker's original statement regarding playing with the boys which she was anxious should be rectified ...




Between 11h57 and 12h12 of the same day I was again interviewed on DVD by DC GIERC.

During this interview I was permitted to refresh my memory after reading my translated original statement made to the Portuguese police.

There are two facts that I would like to clarify: "dining out service" which is mentioned is available for the adults, being that the children would be left under the care of a childcare worker during dinner.

My original deposition also mentioned that Madeleine offered more attention to the boys in the club. I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter. I confirm that the deposition in this second DVD is truthful and in accord with my knowledge and that it will be registered.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 02, 2015, 11:33:53 PM
Just to keep the record straight ... I think you may be referring to a mistake in Catriona Baker's original statement regarding playing with the boys which she was anxious should be rectified ...




Between 11h57 and 12h12 of the same day I was again interviewed on DVD by DC GIERC.

During this interview I was permitted to refresh my memory after reading my translated original statement made to the Portuguese police.

There are two facts that I would like to clarify: "dining out service" which is mentioned is available for the adults, being that the children would be left under the care of a childcare worker during dinner.

My original deposition also mentioned that Madeleine offered more attention to the boys in the club. I do not remember having made such an affirmation given that Madeleine passed the majority of time playing with Jane Tanner's daughter. I confirm that the deposition in this second DVD is truthful and in accord with my knowledge and that it will be registered.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAT_BAKER.htm

Boys play and talk about football and Madeleine liked playing football so there's nothing strange in the fact that she would play with boys. Madeleine wasn't the girly girl type that Sadie said she was.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 11:41:17 PM
Boys play and talk about football and Madeleine liked playing football so there's nothing strange in the fact that she would play with boys. Madeleine wasn't the girly girl type that Sadie said she was.
She is a gutsy girl.  I agree with that

But she is also a girly girl cos she loves being the fairy etc and dressing up in Mums shoes etc. .... and PINK !
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2015, 08:41:12 AM
She is a gutsy girl.  I agree with that

But she is also a girly girl cos she loves being the fairy etc and dressing up in Mums shoes etc. .... and PINK !

Never forget, she was mum's best friend as well.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 03, 2015, 08:57:08 AM
Please try not stray from the topic. Thank You
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on August 03, 2015, 09:18:51 AM
She is a gutsy girl.  I agree with that

But she is also a girly girl cos she loves being the fairy etc and dressing up in Mums shoes etc. .... and PINK !

That lovely video her daddy took of her in her fairy outfit couldn't show a more 'girly' little girl imo. (or a more adoring father).      She also liked to have beads in her hair, wearing her mum's engagement ring and playing with her mums make-up.   IIRC she chose the colour of her bedroom - which was pink.   All girly stuff.    It's because she was 'gutsy' as you put it Sadie, that IMO she may well have refused point blank to wear a boy's tee shirt. 

Of course had that red Tee-shirt belonged to Madeleine, that would have been very convenient for Amaral IMO.

All IMHO.

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2015, 09:32:12 AM
That lovely video her daddy took of her in her fairy outfit couldn't show a more 'girly' little girl imo. (or a more adoring father).      She also liked to have beads in her hair, wearing her mum's engagement ring and playing with her mums make-up.   IIRC she chose the colour of her bedroom - which was pink.   All girly stuff.    It's because she was 'gutsy' as you put it Sadie, that IMO she may well have refused point blank to wear a boy's tee shirt. 

Of course had that red Tee-shirt belonged to Madeleine, that would have been very convenient for Amaral IMO.

All IMHO.

 

and what relevance does this have to the topic exactly ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 03, 2015, 09:41:03 AM
and what relevance does this have to the topic exactly ?

The dog supposedly alerted to a red t'shirt, Stephen. But some say that it couldn't be Madeleine's because she was too 'Girlie'
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2015, 10:11:50 AM
The dog supposedly alerted to a red t'shirt, Stephen. But some say that it couldn't be Madeleine's because she was too 'Girlie'

Lat's not forget secondary transfer.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 03, 2015, 10:24:21 AM
Lat's not forget secondary transfer.

If the alert was in any way meaningful, then, yes 'cross contamination' is a possibility.
There is no way of knowing the reason for the dogs alerts, or whether they were positive or false. We must therefore rely on MG's final assessment/words on the matter.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 03, 2015, 10:30:57 AM
The dog supposedly alerted to a red t'shirt, Stephen. But some say that it couldn't be Madeleine's because she was too 'Girlie'

I think most say that it couldn't be Madeleine's (or at least, couldn't be worn by Madeleine on that holiday) because the shirt was too small (or Madeleine was too big), take your pick.

And others say it is unlikely, ever, to have been worn by Madeleine because it was not Madeleine's style.

No clue about that ...

Key is that she never wore it, on that holiday, tending to suggest that Eddie's act in picking it up (always an untrained and deleterious act) was a redherring.

How could any dog picking stuff up in its mouth at a crime scene, ever, be anything else?

It never could ....

And yet Amaral was idiotic enough, either to believe or to pretend  that Eddie picking stuff up could be indicative (of something or another).

Amaral was either an idiot or dishonest (possibly both)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 03, 2015, 10:32:58 AM
I think most say that it couldn't be Madeleine's (or at least, couldn't be worn by Madeleine on that holiday) because the shirt was too small (or Madeleine was too big), take your pick.

And others say it is unlikely, ever, to have been worn by Madeleine because it was not Madeleine's style.

No clue about that ...

Key is that she never wore it, on that holiday, tending to suggest that Eddie's act in picking it up (always an untrained and deleterious act) was a redherring.

How could any dog picking stuff up in its mouth at a crime scene, ever, be anything else?

It never could ....

And yet Amaral was idiotic enough, either to believe or to pretend  that Eddie picking stuff up could be indicative (of something or another).

Amaral was either an idiot or dishonest (possibly both)

Oh so predictable.

Attacking Amaral, yet again.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 03, 2015, 11:06:37 AM
If the alert was in any way meaningful, then, yes 'cross contamination' is a possibility.
There is no way of knowing the reason for the dogs alerts, or whether they were positive or false. We must therefore rely on MG's final assessment/words on the matter.

Why?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 03, 2015, 04:18:45 PM
Why?

He knew the legal status of the dog alerts....... Who else's opinion could we rely on?

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 03, 2015, 04:36:24 PM
He knew the legal status of the dog alerts....... Who else's opinion could we rely on?

Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.
This does not however
suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
corroborating evidence.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

Fair enough that you haven't taken what I underline out of context, but still, why should we rely on that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 03, 2015, 04:36:46 PM
Forensic results can be admitted as evidence in a court in England and in Portugal.  Alerts by a dog cannot.

There are good reasons why this is so.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 03, 2015, 04:47:40 PM
Forensic results can be admitted as evidence in a court in England and in Portugal.  Alerts by a dog cannot.

There are good reasons why this is so.

There has been no precedent, which doesn't mean that there will never be one. However, I'd be a lot more concerned about such "evidence" being admitted in court in PT than in the UK.

After all, the judges and the jury bowed to the superior knowledge of "we, experts" in the Cipriano case. No one questioned why a speck of unidentified blood in the fridge could not have been due to anyone's innocent knicked finger ... because it had been found at the back of a removable drawer weeks after the child had gone missing. And everyone seems to have nodded in agreement.

Work that one out... particularly when João had to remove the drawer to attempt to stuff the doll in.

It's surreal.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 03, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
Fair enough that you haven't taken what I underline out of context, but still, why should we rely on that?

Do you have a suggestion , FM, as to who's professional opinion we should rely on, to give us the legal standing, on the dog alerts, other than MG?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 03, 2015, 04:53:58 PM
Do you have a suggestion , FM, as to who's professional opinion we should rely on, to give us the legal standing, on the dog alerts, other than MG?

Mark Harrison:

However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

That is a proper professional opinion.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 03, 2015, 04:59:40 PM
Mark Harrison:

However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

That is a proper professional opinion.

Of course you are absolutely correct, FM. It all boils down to........"No evidential value"
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 03, 2015, 05:06:38 PM
Re the alerts by Eddie in the villa and assumed by Amaral to be of the cat toy.
In the Panorama documentary you can see video at the villa earlier the same day before Eddie arrived.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqoj-pfBUnY

For example you can see many clothing and other items on airing racks on patio.
Compare with dog video later same day.
By the time the Eddie arrives many of these aired items have been brought inside and placed in the dining area.
Aired pillows pillowcases and towels are put on dining table (where earllier were breakfast cereals and laptop).
And IMO aired clothing neatly folded and put on sideboard.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 03, 2015, 05:08:00 PM
Of course you are absolutely correct, FM. It all boils down to........"No evidential value"

Quite interesting article here

http://www.hbslawfirm.com/articles_display.php?id=67
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 03, 2015, 05:08:29 PM
Of course you are absolutely correct, FM. It all boils down to........"No evidential value"

More than that: "no inference can be made".

There could be dozens of unrelated potential explanations to account for the alerts.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 03, 2015, 05:31:52 PM
Quite interesting article here

http://www.hbslawfirm.com/articles_display.php?id=67

Very good explanation of false and true negatives and positives.  Also of interest was ...

Quote
In the case mentioned at the outset of this article, police attempted to determine whether a human remains detection dog could detect residual odor from a decomposing body they suspected had been transported some time earlier in a rental car.

The rental car, a subcompact, was placed in a police parking garage that was filled with various police vehicles.

The rental car was the only non-police vehicle, the only subcompact, and had out of state license plates, facts which
the dog handler admitted to having noticed.

A film of the event showed the dog passing by the subject rental car without alert until the handler drew the attention of the dog to it again.
United States v. Anderson (E.D. Mich. Case No. 2003 CR 80602) Unquote.


The McCann rental vehicle was covered with Madeleine posters ... so hardly a 'blind' inspection.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 03, 2015, 06:21:45 PM
Quite interesting article here

http://www.hbslawfirm.com/articles_display.php?id=67

Thank you JB. It looks very interesting. I will finish reading it later.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 03, 2015, 06:26:44 PM
More than that: "no inference can be made".

There could be dozens of unrelated potential explanations to account for the alerts.

Sorry, Carana....Yes I should have included that bit.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 03, 2015, 08:11:43 PM
Very good explanation of false and true negatives and positives.  Also of interest was ...

Quote
In the case mentioned at the outset of this article, police attempted to determine whether a human remains detection dog could detect residual odor from a decomposing body they suspected had been transported some time earlier in a rental car.

The rental car, a subcompact, was placed in a police parking garage that was filled with various police vehicles.

The rental car was the only non-police vehicle, the only subcompact, and had out of state license plates, facts which
the dog handler admitted to having noticed.

A film of the event showed the dog passing by the subject rental car without alert until the handler drew the attention of the dog to it again.
United States v. Anderson (E.D. Mich. Case No. 2003 CR 80602) Unquote.


The McCann rental vehicle was covered with Madeleine posters ... so hardly a 'blind' inspection.

Eddie was correct in the Parker case with his garage alert and the house next door alert. Eddie's skill is remarkable for detecting cadaver scent as Adrian Prout discovered.

We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.

Grime testified he was paid $450 a day, plus travel and living expenses, by the FBI to search some areas in Walker County in connection with Teresa Parker's disappearance.

During a visit to Parker's home back in September 2007 Grime said he and Eddie sniffed around their garage.

"He immediately gave a positive bark response within the garage between a truck parked to the left of the entrance and a boat parked to the right," Grime said.

Grime added Eddie did not seem interested in the vehicles but in a scent that was wafting in the air, based on the way the dog held his nose upward. Grime said Eddie then "hit" on an abandoned house next door. Testimony shows that house was never repaired after a fire gutted the inside and killed a child several years ago.

During lengthy cross-examination Grime said there is no evidence to show Eddie smelled anything incriminating against or linked to Mr. Parker. Like Higgins, Grime said cadaver dogs can only prove useful when there is other evidence that corroborates the dog's "hits."

http://www.scentevidence.com/2009/07/dog-debate-at-center-of-murder-case.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 03, 2015, 08:24:08 PM
Very good explanation of false and true negatives and positives.  Also of interest was ...

Quote
In the case mentioned at the outset of this article, police attempted to determine whether a human remains detection dog could detect residual odor from a decomposing body they suspected had been transported some time earlier in a rental car.

The rental car, a subcompact, was placed in a police parking garage that was filled with various police vehicles.

The rental car was the only non-police vehicle, the only subcompact, and had out of state license plates, facts which
the dog handler admitted to having noticed.

A film of the event showed the dog passing by the subject rental car without alert until the handler drew the attention of the dog to it again.
United States v. Anderson (E.D. Mich. Case No. 2003 CR 80602) Unquote.


The McCann rental vehicle was covered with Madeleine posters ... so hardly a 'blind' inspection.
Peeps seem to be imagining this was a test of one suspect vehicle and a dozen known-clean vehicles.
It wasn't.
Every vehicle there was a vehicle of interest to the investigation.
Every vehicle was being tested.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 03, 2015, 11:47:43 PM
Peeps seem to be imagining this was a test of one suspect vehicle and a dozen known-clean vehicles.
It wasn't.
Every vehicle there was a vehicle of interest to the investigation.
Every vehicle was being tested.
Oh is that so?

Why didn't Martin keep calling Eddie back to the other vehicles as he did with the Mccann car then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 03, 2015, 11:58:20 PM
Oh is that so?

Why didn't Martin keep calling Eddie back to the other vehicles as he did with the Mccann car then?
He did. It's in the extended vehicle video. He calls the Eddie back to other vehicles. And cues Eddie to examine certain areas on other vehicles. All the vehicles were of interest, all the vehicles were connected directly or indirectly to T9 or RM.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2015, 12:45:45 AM
He did. It's in the extended vehicle video. He calls the Eddie back to other vehicles. And cues Eddie to examine certain areas on other vehicles. All the vehicles were of interest, all the vehicles were connected directly or indirectly to T9 or RM.
Can we see the extended vehicle video please
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 04, 2015, 02:11:38 AM
Can we see the extended vehicle video please
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4NMYPsFKb8#t=4312
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2015, 10:06:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4NMYPsFKb8#t=4312
Thanks Pegasus, will have a look at it later.

Medical appointment this morning, so am in a dash
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 11:42:58 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4NMYPsFKb8#t=4312

Revealed in all it's glory.  I wonder how much Martin Grime got paid for that farce.

And incidentally, Eddie never at any time reacted to CuddleCat, or even to the cupboard in which the toy was hidden.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 11:59:04 AM
Revealed in all it's glory.  I wonder how much Martin Grime got paid for that farce.

And incidentally, Eddie never at any time reacted to CuddleCat, or even to the cupboard in which the toy was hidden.

I think secondary transfer was on CC so a weaker scent and it had a good wash and clean. Another suspicious action before the dogs arrived. Reverted to puppy toy play mode so it was hidden.

Police Dog Training Instructor
Uk Police
January 1984 – August 2007 (23 years 8 months)
Police Dog Training Instructor
Human remains search.

Cornwall, UK
A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspects
house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet.
No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the
suspect was alert indicated by the dog
. The diary had written extracts that the
offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact
been written by the suspect having handled the body.
This was confirmed by
the offender in interview.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 04, 2015, 12:17:43 PM
I think secondary transfer was on CC so a weaker scent and it had a good wash and clean. Another suspicious action before the dogs arrived. Reverted to puppy toy play mode so it was hidden.

Police Dog Training Instructor
Uk Police
January 1984 – August 2007 (23 years 8 months)
Police Dog Training Instructor
Human remains search.

Cornwall, UK
A woman was reported missing by her partner. A search of the suspects
house by the EVRD was conducted who indicated on the living room carpet.
No forensic evidence was recovered. Subsequently a diary written by the
suspect was alert indicated by the dog
. The diary had written extracts that the
offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact
been written by the suspect having handled the body.
This was confirmed by
the offender in interview.

The thing I find most interesting about that account is an absence -- no name to the case.

Why not?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 12:22:19 PM
I think secondary transfer was on CC so a weaker scent and it had a good wash and clean. Another suspicious action before the dogs arrived. Reverted to puppy toy play mode so it was hidden.


I don't see how it could be a weaker scent for any reason since Eddie didn't react to CuddleCat at all.  Or the cupboard.

CuddleCat wasn't in that cupboard for very long, so the scent can hardly have drifted away from the object, and left the object all together.

But I agree that Martin Grime might have tried reverting to puppy play mode, but it didn't work, did it.  Eddie didn't find it.

But I did so love the look on Martin Grime's face when he produced it.  Pity about Eddie.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Admin on August 04, 2015, 12:36:30 PM
Sending a single dog handler to PdL was the mistake they made. The fact that a journalist with questionable credentials was involved renders the entire fiasco extremely suspect.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 12:45:52 PM
I don't see how it could be a weaker scent for any reason since Eddie didn't react to CuddleCat at all.  Or the cupboard.

CuddleCat wasn't in that cupboard for very long, so the scent can hardly have drifted away from the object, and left the object all together.

But I agree that Martin Grime might have tried reverting to puppy play mode, but it didn't work, did it.  Eddie didn't find it.

But I did so love the look on Martin Grime's face when he produced it.  Pity about Eddie.

If your clothes are in direct contact with a cadaver then a stronger contaminated scent will be on the clothes than if you touched a cadaver with your hands and then picked something else up like a diary or a toy i.e. secondary transfer. I think everybody can agree with that conclusion. Direct contact with a cadaver will be a stronger scent.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 12:46:31 PM
Sending a single dog handler to PdL was the mistake they made. The fact that a journalist with questionable credentials was involved renders the entire fiasco extremely suspect.

And he is so proud of these videos that he's got his name stamped all over them, in your face.

And just who did put CuddleCat in that cupboard?  Whose idea was that?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 12:48:06 PM
If your clothes are in direct contact with a cadaver then a stronger contaminated scent will be on the clothes than if you touched a cadaver with your hands and then picked something else up like a diary or a toy i.e. secondary transfer. I think everybody can agree with that conclusion. Direct contact with a cadaver will be a stronger scent.

So where and to what did this happen?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 12:49:56 PM
So where and to what did this happen?

The obvious explanation from the dog alerts is that the missing child died in the apartment and after handling the cadaver CC was placed on the bed and was a part of staging.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 12:52:41 PM
The obvious explanation from the dog alerts is that the missing child died in the apartment and after handling the cadaver CC was placed on the bed and was a part of staging.

So why didn't Eddie alert to the bed?  And why didn't Eddie alert to CuddleCat?  Could it be that none of this happened?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 12:57:23 PM
So why didn't Eddie alert to the bed?  And why didn't Eddie alert to CuddleCat?  Could it be that none of this happened?

No cadaver was in the bed. This toy was placed on top and only that was touched by cadaver hands. I don't know what happened to the sheets.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2015, 01:03:01 PM
Sending a single dog handler to PdL was the mistake they made. The fact that a journalist with questionable credentials was involved renders the entire fiasco extremely suspect.

What seems indisputable to me is that the full footage has not been released - whoever edited it.

I find it unlikely that during the arguido interviews the PJ fast-forwarded through hours and hours of footage to find the right sequences. The sequences only show where the dogs alerted, not the hours of footage where they didn't.

The PJ were attempting to get a confession based on supposedly incriminating alerts. Showing sequences in which Eddie may have cocked his leg up for a pee might have ruined the psychological impact.

I find it highly likely that the PJ edited out the unwanted footage to include the key moments. Whether that was further edited prior to Internet release... don't know.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 01:08:21 PM
What seems indisputable to me is that the full footage has not been released - whoever edited it.

I find it unlikely that during the arguido interviews the PJ fast-forwarded through hours and hours of footage to find the right sequences. The sequences only show where the dogs alerted, not the hours of footage where they didn't.

The PJ were attempting to get a confession based on supposedly incriminating alerts. Showing sequences in which Eddie may have cocked his leg up for a pee might have ruined the psychological impact.

SY are still using them so I think they take the dog alerts very seriously as they're searches last year proved. Searching areas Eddie hadn't in 2007.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2015, 01:13:59 PM
SY are still using them so I think they take the dog alerts very seriously as they're searches last year proved. Searching areas Eddie hadn't in 2007.

Who is "them"?

I have no problem with using dogs as an intelligence tool and never have had...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 04, 2015, 01:18:45 PM
I think secondary transfer was on CC so a weaker scent ...

'Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal'.


The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'. Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.

(Martin Grime)

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 01:19:21 PM
Who is "them"?

I have no problem with using dogs as an intelligence tool and never have had...

Tito and Muzzy searching for a cadaver like Eddie.

(http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article3639691.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Madeleine-McCann-Dig-Day-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 01:20:59 PM
'Based upon the dogs' behaviour, is it possible to distinguish between a strong signal and a weak signal'.


The dogs' passive CSI alert provides an indication as per their training and does not vary. They only give an alert when they are 'positive' that the target of the odour is present and immediately accessible. If they had any doubts they would not give an alert. EVRD gives an alert by means of a vocal bark. The variations in the vocal alert can be explained by many reasons such as 'thirst' or 'lack of air due to effort'. Every alert can be subject to interpretation, it has to be confirmed. The signals of an alert are only just that. Once the alert has been given by the dog, it is up to the investigator/forensic scientist to locate, identify and scientifically provide the evidence of DNA, etc.

(Martin Grime)

Eddie bark alerts whether it's weak or strong scent. But secondary transfer will be weaker than direct contact with a cadaver. That is obvious.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 04, 2015, 01:30:24 PM
Eddie bark alerts whether it's weak or strong scent. But secondary transfer will be weaker than direct contact with a cadaver. That is obvious.

Weaker to whom?

The olfactory sensors of a dog?

I doubt it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 01:34:51 PM
Weaker to whom?

The olfactory sensors of a dog?

I doubt it.

Weaker scents do exist @)(++(* Eddie only bark alerts when he is 100% certain.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 01:39:18 PM
SY are still using them so I think they take the dog alerts very seriously as they're searches last year proved. Searching areas Eddie hadn't in 2007.

Eddie is dead.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 01:42:11 PM
Weaker scents do exist @)(++(* Eddie only bark alerts when he is 100% certain.

So Eddie wasn't certain about CuddleCat?  How do you work that one out?  Cart before the horse?
Eddie did not alert to CuddleCat.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 01:42:18 PM
Eddie is dead.

Not in this case he isn't.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 01:43:22 PM
Weaker scents do exist @)(++(* Eddie only bark alerts when he is 100% certain.
What does he do when he's only 60-80% certain?  Give a raised eyebrow?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 01:43:39 PM
Not in this case he isn't.

Ah, I see.  Everlasting Victim Recovery Dog.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 01:44:28 PM
So Eddie wasn't certain about CuddleCat?  How do you work that one out?  Cart before the horse?
Eddie did not alert to CuddleCat.

Oh yes he did. He pulled the toy out of the bin and marked it. Maybe he thought it was a test like he did as a puppy. They hid the toy for a second test and he alerted. Eddie alerted to CC. CC was a part of staging and placed on the bed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 01:45:44 PM
What does he do when he's only 60-80% certain?  Give a raised eyebrow?

He doesn't alert.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 01:47:28 PM
Oh yes he did. He pulled the toy out of the bin and marked it. Maybe he thought it was a test like he did as a puppy. They hid the toy for a second test and he alerted. Eddie alerted to CC. CC was a part of staging and placed on the bed.

Have you watched that Video?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 01:48:00 PM
He doesn't alert.
How do you know it's a weak alert then?  It's either an alert or it isn't!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 01:49:35 PM
Have you watched that Video?

Yes and Eddie didn't mark any other toy. Only the toy found on the missing child's bed. Eddie ain't dumb.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 01:49:46 PM
Oh yes he did. He pulled the toy out of the bin and marked it. Maybe he thought it was a test like he did as a puppy. They hid the toy for a second test and he alerted. Eddie alerted to CC. CC was a part of staging and placed on the bed.
He marked it?  What with?!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 01:58:31 PM
He marked it?  What with?!

I asked Martin why Eddie did not alert to cuddle cat when he first encountered the toy and his response was this, and I quote:

"Eddie was given a cuddly toy as a reward in training so reverted to puppy mode. His inital reaction in playing with the toy was not unusual at all."

Serendipity on December 16, 2013
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 04, 2015, 02:00:43 PM
Cuddle-cat was a fiasco and an embarrassment to Grime.

I think Grime hid the toy in a cupboard to avoid a repeat of Eddie playing with it.

When Eddie started barking all around the cupboard, Grime muddled through it the best he could.

We never did establish why Grime felt Eddie would need two cracks at alerting to the clothes ...

The only explanation of how the inspection at the gym came about is the one in Amaral's book.

Harrison turned his back on it, describing it curtly in his summary of all searches as a PJ exercise.

He described the prior inspection in the villa the same.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 04, 2015, 02:09:24 PM
Revealed in all it's glory.  I wonder how much Martin Grime got paid for that farce.

And incidentally, Eddie never at any time reacted to CuddleCat, or even to the cupboard in which the toy was hidden.

Agree, Eleanor.

Grime spent five times as long standing by the right front wing of the Renault than he did with any of the other cars.  And Eddie showed no more interest in the Renault than he did with any of the other cars - until he realised that his masters behaviour was quite different.   On the fifth recall he "alerted".  In the place that Grime was repeatedly pointing to. 

Combine that performance with Duarte Levy on the video, and the forensic results (a trace of Gerry's blood on the keycard) , and this is a complete non event.

Anyone who is convinced that this shows Madeleine was in the hirecar redefines the term "gullible".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2015, 02:12:00 PM
I asked Martin why Eddie did not alert to cuddle cat when he first encountered the toy and his response was this, and I quote:

"Eddie was given a cuddly toy as a reward in training so reverted to puppy mode. His inital reaction in playing with the toy was not unusual at all."

Serendipity on December 16, 2013

Many thanks for that, erm, "authoritative" source...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 04, 2015, 02:14:31 PM
Agree, Eleanor.

Grime spent five times as long standing by the right front wing of the Renault than he did with any of the other cars.  And Eddie showed no more interest in the Renault than he did with any of the other cars - until he realised that his masters behaviour was quite different.   On the fifth recall he "alerted".  In the place that Grime was repeatedly pointing to. 

Combine that performance with Duarte Levy on the video, and the forensic results (a trace of Gerry's blood on the keycard) , and this is a complete non event.

Anyone who is convinced that this shows Madeleine was in the hirecar redefines the term "gullible".

At most charitable.

Or beguiler at less charitable and (in some instances at least!) more accurate.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 04, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
Doncha just lurve Martin Grime's straight face.  He could market that if nothing else.

How I actually got through that video will remain a better forgotten memory for some time to come.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 02:21:30 PM
I asked Martin why Eddie did not alert to cuddle cat when he first encountered the toy and his response was this, and I quote:

"Eddie was given a cuddly toy as a reward in training so reverted to puppy mode. His inital reaction in playing with the toy was not unusual at all."

Serendipity on December 16, 2013
Dogs usually mark things with urine, that's why I asked.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 02:24:23 PM
Many thanks for that, erm, "authoritative" source...
Postively serependitous!  We're not allowed to diss that particular source though...  8(8-))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 02:52:03 PM
Many thanks for that, erm, "authoritative" source...

It is if you know who it is  8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 03:10:12 PM
It is if you know who it is  8(0(*
The problem is - we all know who it is, hence the derision!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on August 04, 2015, 04:18:19 PM
Well..........I expect all these outpourings help to displace any hint of a possibility that an alert by the EVRD could have originated from the cadaver of the missing child.

Better to opt for urine- contaminated shorts, alleged handler incompetence and an overly - playful dog alerting for a reward.......( or was it an exhausted dog, alerting to get it all over with?)

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 04, 2015, 04:25:24 PM
Well..........I expect all these outpourings help to displace any hint of a possibility that an alert by the EVRD could have originated from the cadaver of the missing child.

Better to opt for urine- contaminated shorts, alleged handler incompetence and an overly - playful dog alerting for a reward.......( or was it an exhausted dog, alerting to get it all over with?)

EVRD?

An individual and unique classification bestowed upon Eddie by Grime, that ceased to exist when Eddie stopped working ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on August 04, 2015, 04:36:20 PM
EVRD?

An individual and unique classification bestowed upon Eddie by Grime, that ceased to exist when Eddie stopped working ....


Try not to let it worry you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2015, 04:38:38 PM
I have a broader issue (although it is linked).

Why is some evidence admissible in court and other evidence not?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 04:43:42 PM
Well..........I expect all these outpourings help to displace any hint of a possibility that an alert by the EVRD could have originated from the cadaver of the missing child.

Better to opt for urine- contaminated shorts, alleged handler incompetence and an overly - playful dog alerting for a reward.......( or was it an exhausted dog, alerting to get it all over with?)
Are you 100% convinced that the dogs alerted to the body of the missing child?  Is so, why?  If not, why not?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 04, 2015, 04:59:22 PM
I have a broader issue (although it is linked).

Why is some evidence admissible in court and other evidence not?

Come on Carana

Let us know please.



I well remember The Michael Cook case when his work colleagues were not allowed to verify that he was working with them at the time that a red car was seen.  In a place that his little car hadn't the ground clearance to reach + several other things which in any normal Court would have got the defendent off.

Then the anomolies in the Leonor and Joao Cipriano case.  They are legendary
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 04, 2015, 05:00:29 PM
It is if you know who it is  8(0(*

an anonymous source on the internet...is this the poster who assured us that grime was going to answer questions from this forum
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 04, 2015, 05:13:51 PM
I have a broader issue (although it is linked).

Why is some evidence admissible in court and other evidence not?

A very broad answer is that some evidence is objective and repeatable, and is capable of being viewed in the same way by different people.  e.g fingerprints, DNA results, a written statement, forensic matching of a bullet to a gun etc etc.

Other evidence is subjective, and depends on circumstances, interpretation.  Dog alerts would come into this category - a dog is a tool to narrow down and aid the search for forensic evidence. and it is the results of such analysis which constitutes evidence.

Whether the dog alerted in down to Grime's interpretation of what constitutes an alert.  That is why it would need to be corroborated by forensic analysis.

A question -would you be happy, say as a member of a jury, to send someone to prison for life on the basis of the video of Eddie searching the flat and the car?     
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 04, 2015, 05:19:51 PM
an anonymous source on the internet...is this the poster who assured us that grime was going to answer questions from this forum

                       %£5&%     Aaaah ... I know who we are talking about now.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 04, 2015, 05:43:20 PM
A very broad answer is that some evidence is objective and repeatable, and is capable of being viewed in the same way by different people.  e.g fingerprints, DNA results, a written statement, forensic matching of a bullet to a gun etc etc.

Other evidence is subjective, and depends on circumstances, interpretation.  Dog alerts would come into this category - a dog is a tool to narrow down and aid the search for forensic evidence. and it is the results of such analysis which constitutes evidence.

Whether the dog alerted in down to Grime's interpretation of what constitutes an alert.  That is why it would need to be corroborated by forensic analysis.

A question -would you be happy, say as a member of a jury, to send someone to prison for life on the basis of the video of Eddie searching the flat and the car?     

I can put my hand on heart and say that about ten seconds in to my first viewing of the dog videos I was incredulous that people had been taken in by them.
Now that I have read a bit more about the training and skills of all types of working dogs and their handlers, that initial response has been reinforced.

I don't think there would ever have been the slightest chance that any jury would have been been asked to view the videos; for the simple reason I don't think they would have been allowed to be presented in court as there wasn't even circumstantial evidence to back them up.

Although having read a little of what was allowed in the Cipriano case it could have been interesting if there had been a prosecution in Madeleine's case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2015, 05:45:32 PM
A very broad answer is that some evidence is objective and repeatable, and is capable of being viewed in the same way by different people.  e.g fingerprints, DNA results, a written statement, forensic matching of a bullet to a gun etc etc.

Other evidence is subjective, and depends on circumstances, interpretation.  Dog alerts would come into this category - a dog is a tool to narrow down and aid the search for forensic evidence. and it is the results of such analysis which constitutes evidence.

Whether the dog alerted in down to Grime's interpretation of what constitutes an alert.  That is why it would need to be corroborated by forensic analysis.

A question -would you be happy, say as a member of a jury, to send someone to prison for life on the basis of the video of Eddie searching the flat and the car?     

Perhaps back in my more innocent days I might have been influenced as a jury member.

I don't know - perhaps it would depend on the preparation for jury members and my own prior research into such matters.

There's no way now that if I'd been on the Cipriano jury at the time that I would have accepted any of it on face value.

On the other hand, if I were called up tomorrow on e.g., a money-laundering case with all kinds of potentially complex legal shenanigans, I doubt that I'd have a clue what to believe.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 04, 2015, 05:48:14 PM

Try not to let it worry you.

The point might concern Grime, should someone from officialdom choose to question him about this unique classification at some (future) time.

My sole concern is to chart truth and separate it from fiction ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2015, 05:56:26 PM
I can put my hand on heart and say that about ten seconds in to my first viewing of the dog videos I was incredulous that people had been taken in by them.
Now that I have read a bit more about the training and skills of all types of working dogs and their handlers, that initial response has been reinforced.

I don't think there would ever have been the slightest chance that any jury would have been been asked to view the videos; for the simple reason I don't think they would have been allowed to be presented in court as there wasn't even circumstantial evidence to back them up.

Although having read a little of what was allowed in the Cipriano case it could have been interesting if there had been a prosecution in Madeleine's case.

My very first reaction was shock at seeing the Sun clip of Eddie barking at the car. I really did wonder at the time.

When I then saw the extended videos a bit later, I realised that it was most definitely no smoking gun (Eddie never did bark at the boot, for example).

And then when I was able to read the forensic results, plus JT's rog... that was it. The penny dropped.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 04, 2015, 06:04:00 PM
Well..........I expect all these outpourings help to displace any hint of a possibility that an alert by the EVRD could have originated from the cadaver of the missing child.

Better to opt for urine- contaminated shorts, alleged handler incompetence and an overly - playful dog alerting for a reward.......( or was it an exhausted dog, alerting to get it all over with?)

the question is why and what did eddie alert to and as even Grime isn't sure....to suggest it is to anything in particular is ridiculous
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 04, 2015, 06:04:21 PM
A very broad answer is that some evidence is objective and repeatable, and is capable of being viewed in the same way by different people.  e.g fingerprints, DNA results, a written statement, forensic matching of a bullet to a gun etc etc.

Other evidence is subjective, and depends on circumstances, interpretation.  Dog alerts would come into this category - a dog is a tool to narrow down and aid the search for forensic evidence. and it is the results of such analysis which constitutes evidence.

Whether the dog alerted in down to Grime's interpretation of what constitutes an alert.  That is why it would need to be corroborated by forensic analysis.

A question -would you be happy, say as a member of a jury, to send someone to prison for life on the basis of the video of Eddie searching the flat and the car?     

Re the underlined bit, how on earth could unidentified and undated specks of blood be evidence of a massacre in the Cipriano case?

Should that have been allowed as evidence or not?

If so, that's okay, providing that the judicial system allows it to be blown to shreds... which didn't happen.

By the same token, a dog woofing could arguably be admitted as "evidence", given the same providos.

Presenting 5 / 20 alleles could be considered "evidence" - in terms of "something found to present", but is of no more significance than a witness stating that they'd heard a UFO take off from a rooftop.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on August 04, 2015, 06:11:09 PM
The point might concern Grime, should someone from officialdom choose to question him about this unique classification at some (future) time.

My sole concern is to chart truth and separate it from fiction ....


So far no reports of either any official inquiry into , or censure for this officer regarding his deployment of the dogs ........( or his terminology)........ have been forthcoming, have they?



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 04, 2015, 06:13:05 PM

So far no reports of either any official inquiry into , or censure for this officer regarding his deployment of the dogs ........( or his terminology)........ have been forthcoming, have they?

no...because his deployment produced nothing...as did his deployment in Jersey. He has not worked in the UK since...how much work has he done in the US
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 07:27:04 PM

So far no reports of either any official inquiry into , or censure for this officer regarding his deployment of the dogs ........( or his terminology)........ have been forthcoming, have they?
Are you 100% certain the dogs alerted to Madeleine's corpse?  If so, why and if not, why not?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 07:57:47 PM
no...because his deployment produced nothing...as did his deployment in Jersey. He has not worked in the UK since...how much work has he done in the US


You know that for a fact?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 08:05:59 PM

Combine that performance with Duarte Levy on the video, and the forensic results (a trace of Gerry's blood on the keycard) , and this is a complete non event.


Was he on the video? Why would he be? I don't recall seeing him, and hs name does not appear in the files among the list of people involved in the dog searches.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on August 04, 2015, 08:34:25 PM
Are you 100% certain the dogs alerted to Madeleine's corpse?  If so, why and if not, why not?

You asked this a few posts back.

 It wasn`t worth answering then any more than now because I used "possibility" and "could" .

You could have worked out the answer from that.

Mr Grime has neither been charged or accused of any offence nor officially rebuked for his deployment of the dogs.

(This alone would usually be enough to cause supporters to hyperventilate at the very idea of "Only Asking Questions for 8 years "  equating the practise with putting the boot in.)

Since the present investigative team have considered the possibility that Madeleine may not have been alive when removed from the apartment , who knows what permutations are in the frame or could become so as the investigation progresses?





Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 04, 2015, 09:20:37 PM
Was he on the video? Why would he be? I don't recall seeing him, and hs name does not appear in the files among the list of people involved in the dog searches.

Have you actually bothered to watch the video? You may see, at the top of the screen, Duarte Levy (C) 2008-2009.

I assume you are familiar with the name Duarte Levy?

And this is the chap who has his fingerprints all over the video that you set such store by. 

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 04, 2015, 09:29:48 PM
You asked this a few posts back.

 It wasn`t worth answering then any more than now because I used "possibility" and "could" .

You could have worked out the answer from that.

Mr Grime has neither been charged or accused of any offence nor officially rebuked for his deployment of the dogs.

(This alone would usually be enough to cause supporters to hyperventilate at the very idea of "Only Asking Questions for 8 years "  equating the practise with putting the boot in.)

Since the present investigative team have considered the possibility that Madeleine may not have been alive when removed from the apartment , who knows what permutations are in the frame or could become so as the investigation progresses?

In the vernacular, you are "aving a giraffe"

Grime deployed the dogs to help in the investigation, looking for forensic evidence.  The dogs alerted, some samples were found, tested by the FSS and shown to be inconclusive (before you get excited this means that no conculsion can be drawn).   

Grime did his job.  So why would he be "charged or accused of any offence nor officially rebuked for his deployment of the dogs"?

Its the sceptics who are getting all excited about Amarals misunderstanding of the results.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 04, 2015, 09:36:47 PM
In the vernacular, you are "aving a giraffe"

Grime deployed the dogs to help in the investigation, looking for forensic evidence.  The dogs alerted, some samples were found, tested by the FSS and shown to be inconclusive (before you get excited this means that no conculsion can be drawn).   

Grime did his job.  So why would he be "charged or accused of any offence nor officially rebuked for his deployment of the dogs"?

Its the sceptics who are getting all excited about Amarals misunderstanding of the results.

As I have said.......it wasn't Grime's fault the dogs found no evidence.....there just wasn't any there
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 04, 2015, 09:38:46 PM
As I have said.......it wasn't Grime's fault the dogs found no evidence.....there just wasn't any there

Inconclusive does not mean no evidence.

It was a contaminated crime scene and we know who did that. 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 09:39:26 PM
Have you actually bothered to watch the video? You may see, at the top of the screen, Duarte Levy (C) 2008-2009.

I assume you are familiar with the name Duarte Levy?

And this is the chap who has his fingerprints all over the video that you set such store by.
Yes dear, I have watched the video. My question was not about alledged copyright but whether he was physically there at the time, which you suggested (and others have asserted)

What does "have his fingerprints all over" mean then?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on August 04, 2015, 09:42:57 PM
In the vernacular, you are "aving a giraffe"

Grime deployed the dogs to help in the investigation, looking for forensic evidence.  The dogs alerted, some samples were found, tested by the FSS and shown to be inconclusive (before you get excited this means that no conculsion can be drawn).   

Grime did his job. So why would he be "charged or accused of any offence nor officially rebuked for his deployment of the dogs"?

Its the sceptics who are getting all excited about Amarals misunderstanding of the results.

Well done!!






Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 09:43:16 PM
As I have said.......it wasn't Grime's fault the dogs found no evidence.....there just wasn't any there

Eddie seems to have indicated to cadaver scent in a bedroom..it is an indication/intelligence, however much youbluster, that will always be a fact. Still waiting for your response to my previous question btw about Mr Grime never havng worked in the UK again post Jersey.
Or were you just making things up? I'd prefer to believe you were just mistaken/wrong.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 04, 2015, 09:54:23 PM
Eddie seems to have indicated to cadaver scent in a bedroom..it is an indication/intelligence, however much youbluster, that will always be a fact. Still waiting for your response to my previous question btw about Mr Grime never havng worked in the UK again post Jersey.
Or were you just making things up? I'd prefer to believe you were just mistaken/wrong.

You show total ignorance of what the alerts signify......we already know maddie may have died in the apartment
What else do the dogs...woof woof....add to that
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on August 04, 2015, 09:58:50 PM
Agree, Eleanor.

Grime spent five times as long standing by the right front wing of the Renault than he did with any of the other cars.  And Eddie showed no more interest in the Renault than he did with any of the other cars - until he realised that his masters behaviour was quite different.   On the fifth recall he "alerted".  In the place that Grime was repeatedly pointing to. 

Combine that performance with Duarte Levy on the video, and the forensic results (a trace of Gerry's blood on the keycard) , and this is a complete non event.

Anyone who is convinced that this shows Madeleine was in the hirecar redefines the term "gullible".


Changed your mind since around 2 o`clock this afternoon re Mr Grime`s deployment of Eddie?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 04, 2015, 09:59:36 PM
Yes dear, I have watched the video. My question was not about alledged copyright but whether he was physically there at the time, which you suggested (and others have asserted)

What does "have his fingerprints all over" mean then?

I assume you are familiar with the works of Duarte Levy?  Why is his name of this video? 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 10:08:33 PM
You asked this a few posts back.

 It wasn`t worth answering then any more than now because I used "possibility" and "could" .

You could have worked out the answer from that.

Mr Grime has neither been charged or accused of any offence nor officially rebuked for his deployment of the dogs.

(This alone would usually be enough to cause supporters to hyperventilate at the very idea of "Only Asking Questions for 8 years "  equating the practise with putting the boot in.)

Since the present investigative team have considered the possibility that Madeleine may not have been alive when removed from the apartment , who knows what permutations are in the frame or could become so as the investigation progresses?
So you acknowledge that there is no way of knowing for sure what the dog was alerting to then, thank you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on August 04, 2015, 10:28:26 PM
So you acknowledge that there is no way of knowing for sure what the dog was alerting to then, thank you.


You are welcome............

A handler allegedly repeatedly calling a dog back until he alerts to a toe-nail or cross- contamination by a pair of urine- stained toddler shorts floats many a boat.    8)-)))



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 10:31:24 PM

You are welcome............

A handler allegedly repeatedly calling a dog back until he alerts to a toe-nail or cross- contamination by a pair of urine- stained toddler shorts floats many a boat.    8)-)))
The question I have is why, if there's no way of knowing what the dog alerted to and as unconscious handler bias is a proven phenomenon in dog searches, people like you set so much store by these dog alerts?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 04, 2015, 10:33:37 PM

Changed your mind since around 2 o`clock this afternoon re Mr Grime`s deployment of Eddie?

Not at all.   I think he was a little too enthusiastic about concentrating on the Renault - which was obviously the McCanns.  Unprofessional, but not a crime.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 10:35:16 PM
You show total ignorance of what the alerts signify......we already know maddie may have died in the apartment
What else do the dogs...woof woof....add to that

You might want to rephrase all that as it seems you have "jumbled up thinking", PS still awaiting a reply to my question, or was it too difficult?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 10:38:16 PM
You show total ignorance of what the alerts signify......we already know maddie may have died in the apartment
What else do the dogs...woof woof....add to that

If you look at Grime's report there are many cases where Eddie has alerted and forensics found no evidence. They were caught because they confessed. Eddie was correct in his cadaver scent alerts in missing person cases and that is an undeniable FACT!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 10:39:15 PM
I assume you are familiar with the works of Duarte Levy?  Why is his name of this video?

I know nothing about him really. I can only guess his name is on the video because he has managed to get a copy from the police when the files were released and then edited it somehow. Whether its editing five hours to one and a half or somethng else, ie sequence, I cannot say, Sorry. If you know, do share. Does your answer mean NO, he wasn't there at the time the video was made then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 04, 2015, 10:52:42 PM
I know nothing about him really. I can only guess his name is on the video because he has managed to get a copy from the police when the files were released and then edited it somehow. Whether its editing five hours to one and a half or somethng else, ie sequence, I cannot say, Sorry. If you know, do share. Does your answer mean NO, he wasn't there at the time the video was made then?

I think any sensible person would agree with you. To think Levy was there and part of the police investigation team is mental  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 11:02:50 PM
I think any sensible person would agree with you. To think Levy was there and part of the police investigation team is mental  @)(++(*

Just a little LOL. But some here have said thats what happened.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carew on August 04, 2015, 11:06:23 PM
The question I have is why, if there's no way of knowing what the dog alerted to and as unconscious handler bias is a proven phenomenon in dog searches, people like you set so much store by these dog alerts?

Strangely enough, it is the need to devote such time and effort into reinforcing the two points you make on a daily basis which demonstrates the store you and others set by these dog alerts.

It is very revealing.

Were there no doggie threads, "people like me" .......(whatever that means ).....wouldn`t add one.

The two points you make are generalised factors in dog searches; but their existence does not remove the possibility that the cadaver of the missing person could have prompted the alerts in this particular, individual case.








Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 11:20:34 PM
Strangely enough, it is the need to devote such time and effort into reinforcing the two points you make on a daily basis which demonstrates the store you and others set by these dog alerts.

It is very revealing.

Were there no doggie threads, "people like me" .......(whatever that means ).....wouldn`t add one.

The two points you make are generalised factors in dog searches; but their existence does not remove the possibility that the cadaver of the missing person could have prompted the alerts in this particular, individual case.
I don't set any store whatsoever in the dog alerts.  I'm just continually bemused by the almost religious fervour that the dogs have inspired and continue to inspire amongst the "sceptic" community.  You can't suggest the dogs are fallible without it seemingly causing great offence.  Personally, I'd be delighted if I never saw another reference to the dogs ever again but all the while they are revered (and let's face it their alerts are the single most important piece of schmevidence the "sceptics" have) the dogs will continue to be discussed. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 04, 2015, 11:21:49 PM
Strangely enough, it is the need to devote such time and effort into reinforcing the two points you make on a daily basis which demonstrates the store you and others set by these dog alerts.

It is very revealing.

Were there no doggie threads, "people like me" .......(whatever that means ).....wouldn`t add one.

The two points you make are generalised factors in dog searches; but their existence does not remove the possibility that the cadaver of the missing person could have prompted the alerts in this particular, individual case.

I am in that club and don't know what it means either.
There seems to be, in some quarters, an unhealthy obsession with talking about dogs and "Smithmen".
It is probably akin to the bicycle shed in "Parkinson's Law".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 11:25:10 PM
"People like you" in this instance are people who consider the dog alerts highly important and relevant to the current investigation, a vital piece of evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 11:37:47 PM
I don't set any store whatsoever in the dog alerts.  I'm just continually bemused by the almost religious fervour that the dogs have inspired and continue to inspire amongst the "sceptic" community.  You can't suggest the dogs are fallible without it seemingly causing great offence.  Personally, I'd be delighted if I never saw another reference to the dogs ever again but all the while they are revered (and let's face it their alerts are the single most important piece of schmevidence the "sceptics" have) the dogs will continue to be discussed.  Pathfinder for instance is always barking  quite literally in his /her posts.  Woof!

Why are they fallble, they do after all, alert to blood, (on plasters as well as period pads and shaving cut droplets or showers) dead bodies, (god forbid) semen, sweat, toenails, hairbursh hair, bad breath, saliva, urine, abortions!, nappy poo, bacon, sausages, and some say pizza and cake,  pretty amazing hounds wouldn't you say? A whole (but incomplete) repertoire of possibilities to explain any alert that happens in the last place a child was seenbefore disappearing.

 8@??)(
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 04, 2015, 11:45:35 PM
Why are they fallble, they do after all, alert to blood, (on plasters as well as period pads and shaving cut droplets or showers) dead bodies, (god forbid) semen, sweat, toenails, hairbursh hair, bad breath, saliva, urine, abortions!, nappy poo, bacon, sausages, and some say pizza and cake,  pretty amazing hounds wouldn't you say? A whole (but incomplete) repertoire of possibilities to explain any alert that happens in the last place a child was seenbefore disappearing.

 8@??)(
very good 8@??)(
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 04, 2015, 11:53:14 PM
very good 8@??)(
Thank you, so sadly ridiculous I agree
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 05, 2015, 12:06:57 AM
Back on Topic, If you please

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 01:24:29 AM
Yes re Amaral and the dogs
In the PJ photo of wardrobe (page 2563) at which there was later an k9 alert mentioned by Amaral.
in centre of pile about a quarter of way up from bottom of pile
is visible a small part of a clothing red, with a white design on
looks a bit like the front of a fuselage?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 02:34:39 AM
Front of white fuselage snipped from a PJ forensic clothing photo, trimmed and rotated. Compare with wardrobe photo. Magnify both.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 02:47:38 PM
?

Can't see it. There appears to be an item or items in a mix of orange and white. TBH it could be anything.

(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P10/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2563.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 04:28:11 PM
?

Can't see it. There appears to be an item or items in a mix of orange and white. TBH it could be anything.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P10/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2563.jpg
1st image = detail from PJ wardrobe photo you posted.
2nd image= detail from PJ forensic clothing photo, rotated and trimmed.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 05:38:03 PM
I can see the smilarity in shapes now. Where did you get that image no. 2?

There isn't any red top with a white design in the forensic clothing file?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm

But where are you going with all this?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 09, 2015, 05:40:12 PM
1st image = detail from PJ wardrobe photo you posted.
2nd image= detail from PJ forensic clothing photo, rotated and trimmed.
I find it rather unsavoury poring over other peoples dirty washing, but if you consider it necessary, what do you think it is ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
I find it rather unsavoury poring over other peoples dirty washing, but if you consider it necessary, what do you think it is ?
IMO it is likely all 3 alerted clothing items were for the entire evening/night of May 3rd in that laundry pile in the wardrobe.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 09, 2015, 06:34:23 PM
IMO it is likely all 3 alerted clothing items were for the entire evening/night of May 3rd in that laundry pile in the wardrobe.
I am sorry I am a bit slow.

Not sure of the significance ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 06:49:16 PM
I am sorry I am a bit slow.

Not sure of the significance ?
The significance is plane to see: the only location in which the clothing could have acquired scent that evening was on that shelf.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 09, 2015, 06:50:20 PM
I am sorry I am a bit slow.

Not sure of the significance ?

Notice the empty base shelf. You can put something heavy there.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 06:58:57 PM
Notice the empty base shelf. You can put something heavy there.
But he doesn't alert at wardrobe floor level Pathfinder. He alerts to first shelf above floor level.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 07:50:20 PM
The significance is plane to see: the only location in which the clothing could have acquired scent that evening was on that shelf.

You cannot say that as fact when a) clothes have not been identified in that fuzzy  pile and b) even if they were, what is to say the scent was acqured there and no where else?

Are you sayng the shelf was contaminated before May 3?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 09, 2015, 08:05:37 PM
But he doesn't alert at wardrobe floor level Pathfinder. He alerts to first shelf above floor level.

And it wasn't the clothes on that shelf that Eddie alerted to three months later.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 08:38:05 PM
And it wasn't the clothes on that shelf that Eddie alerted to three months later.

Mr Grime said the scent can transfer in a room from it's original source point, so any porous material nearby can have picked it up

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 09:17:34 PM
I can see the smilarity in shapes now. Where did you get that image no. 2?

There isn't any red top with a white design in the forensic clothing file?

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CLOTHES.htm

But where are you going with all this?
item 3 Mercury
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 09:22:13 PM
item 3 Mercury

Yes,thanks for replying hours later after bypassing my post inititally. I did figure out you had cut and pasted and enlarged the one white aeroplane on that red top and enlarged it to match the thing in the wardrobe you thought it matched. Besides, the item in the wardrobe was not red, more orange.

You have not elaborated on your latest "theory" about the clothes and dog alerts.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 09:44:43 PM
Yes,thanks for replying hours later after bypassing my post inititally. I did figure out you had cut and pasted and enlarged the one white aeroplane on that red top and enlarged it to match the thing in the wardrobe you thought it matched. Besides, the item in the wardrobe was not red, more orange.

You have not elaborated on your latest "theory" about the clothes and dog alerts.
The proposition is that item 3 was on that shelf the whole evening.
 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 09:49:04 PM
The proposition is that item 3 was on that shelf the whole evening.

So what if it was?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 09, 2015, 09:55:49 PM
The proposition is that item 3 was on that shelf the whole evening.

And Kate's pants? Maybe she wore them on 3 May as she likes wearing them as is proven in many pics.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 09:56:51 PM
So what if it was?
That means it acquired scent while it was not being worn.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 10:13:03 PM
That means it acquired scent while it was not being worn.
Even if that was true, so?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 10:17:04 PM
And Kate's pants? Maybe she wore them on 3 May as she likes wearing them as is proven in many pics.
IMO all three clothes listed as alerted were on that shelf for the whole evening/night of May 3rd.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 10:28:47 PM
Even if that was true, so?
It is progress which dumps the rubbish assumption
"clothing 1 2 3 contacted source at location unknown while being worn by someone"
and replaces it with
"clothing 1 2 3 contacted source while at exact location a in room b and it was not being worn at the time".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 10:37:10 PM
It is progress which dumps the rubbish assumption
"clothing 1 2 3 contacted source at location unknown while being worn by someone"
and replaces it with
"clothing 1 2 3 contacted source while at exact location a in room b and it was not being worn at the time".

Didnt you digest and or factor in my previous post? The scent source can settle anywhere porous in the near vicinity

But yes you could argue scented clothes were not actually worn
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 10:56:35 PM
Didnt you digest and or factor in my previous post? The scent source can settle anywhere porous in the near vicinity

But yes you could argue scented clothes were not actually worn
In addition to alerting to the 3 listed clothes, he on earlier date alerted to the empty shelf where IMO the clothes had been the whole evening of the 3rd May. There was no alerts to the porous air-trapping beds mattresses.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 11:01:27 PM
In addition to alerting to the 3 listed clothes, he on earlier date alerted to the empty shelf where IMO the clothes had been the whole evening of the 3rd May. There was no alerts to the porous air-trapping beds mattresses.

But you have no proof all three items were in that shelf and also AS I said the scent could have come from anywhere in that room

Now I am interested to know what your underlying thesis is surrounding all this
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 11:22:59 PM
But you have no proof all three items were in that shelf and also AS I said the scent could have come from anywhere in that room

Now I am interested to know what your underlying thesis is surrounding all this
If the scent molecules came from some other part of the room, how did they decide to bypass the beds (porous, air-trapping) and attach instead on the smooth laminate surface of a shelf cavity (non-porous non-air-trapping)?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 09, 2015, 11:38:22 PM
If the scent molecules came from some other part of the room, how did they decide to bypass the beds (porous, air-trapping) and attach instead on the smooth laminate surface of a shelf cavity (non-porous non-air-trapping)?

I have no idea and neither do you, perhaps a cadVer dog alerts to the most concentratedly saturated item? However that came across with the transference of the scent. A matress is a large item, a small t shirt is tiny
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 09, 2015, 11:55:55 PM
I have no idea and neither do you, perhaps a cadVer dog alerts to the most concentratedly saturated item? However that came across with the transference of the scent. A matress is a large item, a small t shirt is tiny
I might be wrong but the simplest solution IMO is that the 3 listed clothing alerts and the bedroom alert have a single explanation.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 12:12:24 AM
I might be wrong but the simplest solution IMO is that the 3 listed clothing alerts and the bedroom alert have a single explanation.

your problem is you dont actually KNOW that all three items were together to start with
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 12:25:40 AM
I might be wrong but the simplest solution IMO is that the 3 listed clothing alerts and the bedroom alert have a single explanation.

I've had another look at the relevant part of the dog video, Pegasus, and I really do not think it passes muster as an indication of anything other than a dog using his mouth to toss items around and barking while running over and tossing various items in the line laid out on the floor.  None of these items were alerted to when in situ anywhere else.

This was one fed up dog making it plain he had had enough.

I think your notion to try to explain Eddie in the bedroom is way off mark ... why he barked there is anyone's guess ... and the fact it is a guess makes it an irrelevance.

Keela's trained response was to freeze and we saw examples of that.

Eddie's trained response was to bark and the example we saw of him alerting to cellular material from a living donor was at the door of the Renault:  where he sat down and remained stationary while barking:  therefore that was his trained response ... barking while stationary.

I do not believe his antics in the gymnasium were a trained response.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 12:27:18 AM
your problem is you dont actually KNOW that all three items were together to start with

That's why Amaral wanted to know what Madeleine was wearing that day and to collect their clothes the following day. A shelf full of clothes weren't alerted and we know the mother was with the children from 6-7 on 3 May when Gerry was playing tennis.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 02:21:26 AM
That's why Amaral wanted to know what Madeleine was wearing that day and to collect their clothes the following day. A shelf full of clothes weren't alerted and we know the mother was with the children from 6-7 on 3 May when Gerry was playing tennis.
I believe you agree that shelf was alerted (sniiffed just before bark).
Obviously if something was placed so that it contacted the shelf it would also contact some of the clothes.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 09:22:59 AM
I believe you agree that shelf was alerted (sniiffed just before bark).
Obviously if something was placed so that it contacted the shelf it would also contact some of the clothes.

More clothes would alert so I think the obvious explanation for only three items is by direct contact or after handling clothes are immediately touched i.e. secondary transfer.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 09:26:29 AM
All the clothes would alert so I think the obvious explanation is clothes in direct contact or after handling cadaver clothes are immediately touched i.e. secondary transfer.

How do you explain the fact that none of the clothes, apparently, alerted to in the gym were alerted to in the villa, despite all being present in the villa during that inspection?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 10:16:04 AM
How do you explain the fact that none of the clothes, apparently, alerted to in the gym were alerted to in the villa, despite all being present in the villa during that inspection?

The venue (gym) was screened by both dogs prior to introducing clothing. (MG) Clothes have to be screened separately. Please provide proof where the alerted clothes were in the villa?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 11:38:18 AM
The venue (gym) was screened by both dogs prior to introducing clothing. (MG) Clothes have to be screened separately. Please provide proof where the alerted clothes were in the villa?

On the "prior" screening of the gym, here is a remarkable fact:

Official record of the canine inspection at 23h20 on 2 August 2007 at the Municipal Pavilion of Lagos, [situated in] Lagos.

The ten participants are indicated as being five PJ Chief Inspectors (2)/Inspectors (3); The UK NPIA officer (Harrison); the UK dog handler (Grime); the Portuguese-speaking officer from Scotland Yard (Freitas); and the two UK English Springer spaniels - Eddy and Kila.

Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

In these terms, the pieces of clothing recovered [from the home] were laid out individually in accordance with instructions given by the British technicians, the dogs [then] walking the area where they [those pieces of clothing] were laid out by order and with the following results described below.

1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.

2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result.
- At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.

3. Clothes from the box labelled Lounge ("sitting room") were inspected by the blood dog between 00h02 (now 3 August) and 00h05 without any result. The same clothes were inspected by the cadaver dog between 00h06 and 00h07 also without any result.

4. Then the suitcase labelled 'Twins bedroom' was inspected, followed by two sets of inspections of its contents due to the large number of individual pieces it contained: the blood dog inspected [the first set] between 00h12 and 00h15, and then [the second set] between 00h22 and 00h24 - both without any result.
The cadaver dog inspected [set one] between 00h16 and 00h17, then [set two] between 00h25 and 00h26, also without any result.

5. An empty suitcase labelled 'Visitors bedroom' was inspected, along with sundry clothing packed in a box labelled Outside Clothes rack. Between 00h40 and 00h43 the blood dog inspected without any result, and in its turn the cadaver dog inspected between 00h44 and 00h45, also without any result.

6. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 1" was inspected by the blood dog between 00h51 and 00h55, while the cadaver dog inspected it between 00h56 and 0057 without any result from either dog.
because there were so many pieces of clothing in the box a second inspection was conducted between 01h04 and 01h07 by the blood dog, and between 01h08 and 01h09 by the cadaver dog, [again] without any result from either dog.

7. The clothes packed in the box labelled "couple's bedroom 2" was inspected by the cadaver dog between 01h20 and 01h22, then the blood dog between 01h23 and 01h25. Nothing abnormal was detected by either dog.

Attached, the photo report which immediately follows and the video recording on MiniDV cassette.

There being nothing more the activity stopped at 01h30.

This document is drawn up to ratify the truth of the above and it is going to be signed by all participants.
(three signatures appended; five missing)

E.&O.E.


There was no gap between the "prior" screening of the gym and the commencement of inspection of the clothing, tending to suggest that the clothes were already laid out before the screening.

So why no alert during the "prior" screening?

And what was the point of the screening?

Or do you think the PJ might have read the translated instructions Mark Harrison gave them after both inspections at villa and gym and "cribbed" from them without really understanding what they were reading? ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 12:15:13 PM
More clothes would alert so I think the obvious explanation for only three items is by direct contact or after handling clothes are immediately touched i.e. secondary transfer.
On shelf a small number of the items would be in direct contact with a specified item and the remainder would not.
The contact items would be random and it is irrelevant which individual happened to be the user of them.
I posted the two images for one item, the design and its size match IMO.
IMO all 3 listed items were on that shelf all evening.
There seems to be objection to this from both sides?
Isn't it likely that a pile of clothes contains clothes?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 12:23:07 PM
@FerryMan

This paragraph is a summary of all the following (numbered) paragraphs
"In these terms, the pieces of clothing recovered [from the home] were laid out individually in accordance with instructions given by the British technicians, the dogs [then] walking the area where they [those pieces of clothing] were laid out by order and with the following results described below"

If you read the paragraph numbered "1" you will find that the venue was checked between 2320 and 2330

If you read the paragraph numbered "2" you will notice the first clothing was removed from box and checked at 2330

You can confirm this by watching the video
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 10, 2015, 12:30:14 PM

This cross contamination does seem to be rather selective.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 12:36:32 PM
@FerryMan

"In these terms, the pieces of clothing recovered [from the home] were laid out individually in accordance with instructions given by the British technicians, the dogs [then] walking the area where they [those pieces of clothing] were laid out by order and with the following results described below"

That paragraph is a summary of the following (numbered) paragraphs

I query why there was no gap between the laying out of the clothing and the commencement of the search.

In fact, I query why there was a search of clothing at all.

These were not clothes kept in some special storage pending the investigation. 

They were clothes in everyday use as clothes are: worn, washed, hung out on washing lines, packed in suitcases.

The point is frequently (and rightly) made that there was zero reference to cross-contamination of any (hypothetical) scent on clothing. 

But that didn't matter.

The inspection came 3 months after the crime; cross-contamination (if it was going to occur) would, long since, already have done so.

The key questions are: what was the point of any inspection at all?

And why a re-inspection of clothing already inspected once (in the villa) without result?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 12:40:56 PM
They weren't laid out before the inspection. The dogs checked the site first.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 12:43:15 PM
They weren't laid out before the inspection. The dogs checked the site first.

Read the timings.

There was no gap between completion of the "prior" inspection and commencement of the search.

The clothes must have been laid out before the "prior" inspection.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 12:46:48 PM
I query why there was no gap between the laying out of the clothing and the commencement of the search.

In fact, I query why there was a search of clothing at all.

These were not clothes kept in some special storage pending the investigation. 

They were clothes in everyday use as clothes are: worn, washed, hung out on washing lines, packed in suitcases.

The point is frequently (and rightly) made that there was zero reference to cross-contamination of any (hypothetical) scent on clothing. 

But that didn't matter.

The inspection came 3 months after the crime; cross-contamination (if it was going to occur) would, long since, already have done so.

The key questions are: what was the point of any inspection at all?

And why a re-inspection of clothing already inspected once (in the villa) without result?
The document is clear. The first action was to check the venue. This is described in the paragraph clearly labelled "1". The paragraph preceding those numbered actions is a summary of all the numbered actions.

In normal use (storing, wearing, washing, drying) over 3 months the clothing would never contact a primary source of the relevant type.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 12:53:34 PM
The document is clear. The first action was to check the venue. This is described in the paragraph clearly labelled "1". The paragraph preceding those numbered actions is a summary of all the numbered actions.

There was no gap between the "prior" inspection of the gym and the commencement of the search.

So the clothes must have been laid out before the "prior" inspection of the gym.

Why do you think Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with translated instructions on how to conduct canine inspections in buildings and vehicles?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 12:56:04 PM
Read the timings.

There was no gap between completion of the "prior" inspection and commencement of the search.

The clothes must have been laid out before the "prior" inspection.

1 - dogs checked site first. 11:20 to 11:30
2 - 11:30 to 11:40 first box of clothes laid out and Keela inspection
11:41 Eddie alerts
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 01:00:10 PM
1 - dogs checked site first. 11:20 to 11:30
2 - 11:30 to 11:40 first box of clothes laid out and Keela inspection
11:41 Eddie alerts

Exactly.

No gap between the "prior" inspection of the premises and commencement of the search.

So the clothes were laid out before the search and the inspection.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 01:02:11 PM
Exactly.

No gap between the "prior" inspection of the premises and commencement of the search.

So the clothes were laid out before the search and the inspection.

Where does it say clothes were laid out?

1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 01:05:45 PM
Where does it say clothes were laid out?

1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.

In the bit you've left out.

There was no gap between the "prior" reconnoitre and the commencement of the search.

So the clothes must have been laid out before the "prior" reconnoitre. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 01:08:22 PM
Where does it say clothes were laid out?

1. Between 23h20 and 23h30 the two dogs were allowed to reconoitre the entire area to guarantee that there were no existing odours - and none were detected by them.

There was no gap between the "prior" reconnoitre and commencement of the search.

So the clothes must have been laid out before the "reconnoitre"
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 01:17:05 PM
There was no gap between the "prior" reconnoitre and commencement of the search.

So the clothes must have been laid out before the "reconnoitre"

Nope that happened in number 2.

2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result.
- At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 01:21:32 PM
Mark Harrison's summary of all searches:

The timeline of these searches was as follows:
 
On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
 
On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
 
On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
 
Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
 
On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
 
On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
 
On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
 
On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
 
On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.


Key points to note:

1.  Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue the PJ with translated instructions on how to carry out dog-inspections in buildings and vehicles. 

2. Harrison disowns UK involvement in all inspections except those he recommended: the holiday apartments, the Murats' place and areas in and around PdL.

Both inspections at villa and gym summarised as PJ exercises.

And Harrison gives no clue at all who took part in the inspection of vehicles.

Only 2 (of 3!) vehicles he recommended be inspected made the line-up of 10.

I think you're going to have to admit defeat graciously on this one, Pathfinder ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 01:24:39 PM
Nope that happened in number 2.

2. Between 23h30 and 23h40 items from the box labelled 'common room' were inspected by the blood dog without result.
- At 23h41 the cadaver dog began its inspection and 'marked' some clothing on the edge of the area. The inspection ended at 23h52 with the clothing having been collected for later direct examination and photographic report.


So it took them 1 minute (after completion of the "reconnoitre") to lay out all the clothes and begin inspection of the clothing?

Dream on ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 01:32:22 PM
So it took them 1 minute (after completion of the "reconnoitre") to lay out all the clothes and begin inspection of the clothing?

Dream on ....

It wouldn't take long as 4 people were laying clothes out from the box as seen in the footage. To think they would have clothes laid out before the dogs inspected the site is bonkers!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 01:43:53 PM
It wouldn't take long as 4 people were laying clothes out from the box as seen in the footage. To think they would have clothes laid out before the dogs inspected the site is bonkers!

What's bonkers is the notion that there was any sort of heed to prior scents.

Think about it.

All the clothes were packed away together in bog-standard cardboard boxes, guaranteeing cross-contamination if there were any contaminated items of clothing in the mix.

As I've pointed out, these inspections came 3 months after the crime, and the clothes were in common circulation during the whole of that time (between the crime and the inspection).  So cross-contamination (if there were contaminated items in the mix) would have occurred way before the inspection.

Inspection of clothing was wholly irrelevant and should never have occurred at all.

There is zero evidence that Harrison endorsed any of it.

From the files, the cited reason for the inspection at the gym was to identify items of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs ....   (from the prior inspection in the villa).

The only (recorded) "reaction" from the inspection in the villa was to cuddle-cat ....

The only other explanation of how the inspection at the gym is supposed to have come about is in Amaral's book.

And as we know, Amaral lost the libel trial ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 01:48:24 PM
The clothes Eddie alerted to.
It is important to find the exact location where those clothes were from 7.30pm onwards.
I posted a pair of images which match IMO.
No-one posted any other clothing image to dispute that match.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 01:54:57 PM
The clothes Eddie alerted to.
It is important to find the exact location where those clothes were from 7.30pm onwards.
I posted a pair of images which match IMO.
No-one posted any other clothing image to dispute that match.

But where is the evidence that Eddie "alerted" to any clothing.

Picking stuff up in his mouth was a deleterious and untrained act.

Eddie could find no trace of any scent in clothing, present in the villa during that inspection, he (apparently!) "found" in the gym.

How did the inspection in the gym come about and who requested it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 10, 2015, 02:04:28 PM
Who said that that pile of clothing in the wardrobe, was all dirty laundry?
What better place to keep the children’s clothing, when they would all need dressing, undressing and preparing for bed.
Looks messy, but maybe Kate was accustomed to a housekeeper doing such chores as keeping clothing in order.
Maybe even dirty linen, chucked in there quickly to tidy up the room.

Was there no dirty linen basket in the apartment?….No photo.

No photographs were taken of the cupboards in the children’s room…….Why? Since they didn’t know at that stage, where the dogs would alert, did they?

Probably because their clothing was all in the main bedroom.

Eddie obviously had a liking for toys. He showed interest to a tennis ball in one of the other apartments. Apparently one was used in his training;
Was it a tennis ball, X contamination scent on the clothing that he alerted too?

 Apart from the dried blood on the tiles and the car key card, what other porous object apart from clothing, did he alert too?

Were the clothes that were taken to the Gym, all laundered, or were some dirty laundry/unwashed recently? We don’t know, so there are many questions still unanswered.

If they were so sure that Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent, surely this should have been checked out by a second cadaver dog. Ensuring that it was not a false alert, before taking it as proof of a body having been there, as Amaral believed.

One cop doesn’t solve a case and yet so many believe that one dog did. Cops get it wrong as well, sometimes.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 02:35:33 PM
But where is the evidence that Eddie "alerted" to any clothing.

Picking stuff up in his mouth was a deleterious and untrained act.

Eddie could find no trace of any scent in clothing, present in the villa during that inspection, he (apparently!) "found" in the gym.

How did the inspection in the gym come about and who requested it?
Eddie alerted twice in the "sala comum" area of the villa.
Eddie later alerted to some clothing from the "sala comum" box.
Seems consistent to me.
The only mistake here was attributing Eddie's first villa alert to the cat - it wasn't - it was to clothing IMO.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 02:38:09 PM
The letter dated 1st August recommending the villa be searched gives as a reason the findings of MH at the apartment, and gives the scenario which is suspected (pages 2068-2069).
The actual search warrant for the villa permits items to be removed for further inspection - this is normal procedure (pages 2085-2093).
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 10, 2015, 02:42:21 PM
But where is the evidence that Eddie "alerted" to any clothing.

Picking stuff up in his mouth was a deleterious and untrained act.

Eddie could find no trace of any scent in clothing, present in the villa during that inspection, he (apparently!) "found" in the gym.

How did the inspection in the gym come about and who requested it?

Tossing clothes around................Just like he would treat a toy, or ball, really.


I believe the original location selected for the dogs' inspection was not clean enough, according to Harrison, IIRC.
PJ had to find another site at short notice and the Gym was it.

There was no sensible reason to do this search. The villa would have been good enough.

I believe that they were trying to prove that a body had been moved........by someone wearing those garments which Eddie supposedly alerted too.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 02:50:55 PM
@Anna in the photo you posted have you changed the colour balance?
It makes it even clearer IMO the red top is there, and BTW the fuselage size is correct.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6311.0;attach=5463;image
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 02:51:29 PM
Tossing clothes around................Just like he would treat a toy, or ball, really.


I believe the original location selected for the dogs' inspection was not clean enough, according to Harrison, IIRC.
PJ had to find another site at short notice and the Gym was it.


There was no sensible reason to do this search. The villa would have been good enough.

I believe that they were trying to prove that a body had been moved........by someone wearing those garments which Eddie supposedly alerted too.

You'll not find any of that in the files, only in Amaral's book.

Of course, Amaral lost the libel trial.

No doubt that was (a large part of!) the reason why ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 10, 2015, 02:52:32 PM
But where is the evidence that Eddie "alerted" to any clothing.

Picking stuff up in his mouth was a deleterious and untrained act.

Eddie could find no trace of any scent in clothing, present in the villa during that inspection, he (apparently!) "found" in the gym.

How did the inspection in the gym come about and who requested it?

Do you have a dog ?


Have you observed dogs in action when they search ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 03:03:38 PM
But where is the evidence that Eddie "alerted" to any clothing.

Picking stuff up in his mouth was a deleterious and untrained act.

Eddie could find no trace of any scent in clothing, present in the villa during that inspection, he (apparently!) "found" in the gym.

How did the inspection in the gym come about and who requested it?
Let's assume you are right about all those things and all of Eddie's barks are meaningless.
Then presumably you have no objection to that clothing being for whole evening 3 May in that pile in the wardrobe?
We know it wasn't being worn that evening, so isn't a wardrobe a likely place for it to be?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 03:11:15 PM
Let's assume you are right about all those things and all of Eddie's barks are meaningless.
Then presumably you have no objection to that clothing being for whole evening 3 May in that pile in the wardrobe?
We know it wasn't being worn that evening, so isn't a wardrobe a likely place for it to be?

I don't follow what you are driving at there at all.

Where is the reference to clothing on evening 3rd May?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 10, 2015, 03:15:15 PM
@Anna in the photo you posted have you changed the colour balance?
It makes it even clearer IMO the red top is there, and BTW the fuselage size is correct.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6311.0;attach=5463;image

I lightened it, to enable a better view. The wardrobe doors would be white and not grey. Glad it helped.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 03:17:53 PM
I don't follow what you are driving at there at all.

Where is the reference to clothing on evening 3rd May?
The PJ crime scene photos - they have clothing in them - locating the "barked" items is important IMO.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 10, 2015, 03:17:53 PM
You'll not find any of that in the files, only in Amaral's book.

Of course, Amaral lost the libel trial.

No doubt that was (a large part of!) the reason why ....

I stand corrected Ferryman. I read it on here somewhere and assumed that it had come from the files, sorry.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 03:24:50 PM
I lightened it, to enable a better view. The wardrobe doors would be white and not grey. Glad it helped.
Thanks. I was going to try locating another item next.
But it appears no-one agrees with the plane nose.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6311.0;attach=5463;image
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 03:46:59 PM
Thanks. I was going to try locating another item next.
But it appears no-one agrees with the plane nose.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6311.0;attach=5463;image


I'm intrigued by the way you ferret out information, Pegasus.  Don't let all us sceptics put you off ... please proceed to the next step and then to your conclusion.

If anyone is old enough to remember the Saturday cinema matinees ... I'm finding it a bit like that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 04:10:50 PM

I'm intrigued by the way you ferret out information, Pegasus.  Don't let all us sceptics put you off ... please proceed to the next step and then to your conclusion.

If anyone is old enough to remember the Saturday cinema matinees ... I'm finding it a bit like that.
In clothing video August when zoom out and blurred a grey white check becomes plain grey. In wardrobe photo May also is blurred grey.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 04:37:25 PM
The PJ crime scene photos - they have clothing in them - locating the "barked" items is important IMO.

The canine inspections were in July/August 2007.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 10, 2015, 04:42:41 PM

I'm intrigued by the way you ferret out information, Pegasus.  Don't let all us sceptics put you off ... please proceed to the next step and then to your conclusion.

If anyone is old enough to remember the Saturday cinema matinees ... I'm finding it a bit like that.

Hopalong Cassidy and Flash Gordon. Passing a Woodbine around between half a dozen of us until we graduated to joints?
Ah those were the days.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 04:46:31 PM
The canine inspections were in July/August 2007.
The clothes barked at were definitely in the apartment for the whole evening of May 3rd.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 04:55:17 PM
The clothes barked at were definitely in the apartment for the whole evening of May 3rd.

Where is that stated?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 05:11:36 PM
Let's assume you are right about all those things and all of Eddie's barks are meaningless.
Then presumably you have no objection to that clothing being for whole evening 3 May in that pile in the wardrobe?
We know it wasn't being worn that evening, so isn't a wardrobe a likely place for it to be?

You don't know if those clothes were worn that evening. You don't know what they were wearing and that's why Amaral wanted to find out the next day.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 05:29:46 PM
The clothes barked at were definitely in the apartment for the whole evening of May 3rd.

If they had brought the clothes with them on holiday that would be a fair assumption to make.

However, they only expected to be there for a few days and would have brought a wardrobe which reflected that.

I don't think the family would have come out without bringing some changes of clothing for them, either spontaneously or by arrangement; in particular for the twins.

Therefore if there are no photographs of the holiday prior to 3rd showing them wearing the clothes which were barked at ... it cannot be said with certainty that they were in the house when Madeleine disappeared.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 05:43:42 PM
If they had brought the clothes with them on holiday that would be a fair assumption to make.

However, they only expected to be there for a few days and would have brought a wardrobe which reflected that.

I don't think the family would have come out without bringing some changes of clothing for them, either spontaneously or by arrangement; in particular for the twins.

Therefore if there are no photographs of the holiday prior to 3rd showing them wearing the clothes which were barked at ... it cannot be said with certainty that they were in the house when Madeleine disappeared.

Kate didn't have her favourite pants in the apartment? These images prove they were there. I think she was wearing them between 6-8 on 3 May.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_03/GerryKateMcCannAP_468x372.jpg)(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/05/01/article-1176448-04C74AF3000005DC-511_233x423.jpg)

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 05:55:53 PM
If they had brought the clothes with them on holiday that would be a fair assumption to make.

However, they only expected to be there for a few days and would have brought a wardrobe which reflected that.

I don't think the family would have come out without bringing some changes of clothing for them, either spontaneously or by arrangement; in particular for the twins.

Therefore if there are no photographs of the holiday prior to 3rd showing them wearing the clothes which were barked at ... it cannot be said with certainty that they were in the house when Madeleine disappeared.
The trousers, and the red top, were both worn after May 3 at dates before anyone accessed the house in UK.
Therefore both those items were inside apartment 5A for the whole evening of 3rd May.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 06:09:29 PM
Where is that stated?
The witness clearly states she was wearing blue jeans for the meal.
Therefore for the whole duration of the meal, the checked trousers were definitely not being worn, and were definitely inside the apartment.
Where else do you suggest they could be?
 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 07:08:11 PM
Kate didn't have her favourite pants in the apartment? These images prove they were there. I think she was wearing them between 6-8 on 3 May.

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_03/GerryKateMcCannAP_468x372.jpg)(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/05/01/article-1176448-04C74AF3000005DC-511_233x423.jpg)


Kate's mother, father and aunt arrived on the fourth May.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6518.msg260797#msg260797
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 07:23:16 PM

Kate's mother, father and aunt arrived on the fourth May.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6518.msg260797#msg260797
So are you suggesting they drove down to Leicester to get those trousers, then back up north to Manchester to get on the plane? The theory sounds like pants to me (no insult Brietta - its a joke).

Why oh why is there so much opposition from both sides to this simple statement?
For the entire duration of dinner of the 3rd they were in the apartment, and were not being worn.   
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 07:26:56 PM
The trousers, and the red top, were both worn after May 3 at dates before anyone accessed the house in UK.
Therefore both those items were inside apartment 5A for the whole evening of 3rd May.

There is nothing to suggest that it would not have been possible for the family to access the house to pick up fresh clothing; or even to have had suitable clothing to bring with them; without either an inventory of the contents of cupboards in the apartment or photographs taken prior to the 3rd there is nothing to substantiate those items were present when the photographs were taken.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 07:33:05 PM
There is nothing to suggest that it would not have been possible for the family to access the house to pick up fresh clothing; or even to have had suitable clothing to bring with them; without either an inventory of the contents of cupboards in the apartment or photographs taken prior to the 3rd there is nothing to substantiate those items were present when the photographs were taken.
But isn't it much more likely that they were taken to PDL on Apr 28th?
It would be hundreds of miles to drive down from Formby or Skipton, then back up to Manchester Airport, just to get a few clothes, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 07:47:56 PM
But isn't it much more likely that they were taken to PDL on Apr 28th?
It would be hundreds of miles to drive down from Formby or Skipton, then back up to Manchester Airport, just to get a few clothes, wouldn't it?

It is likely the clothes were taken out with them at the start of the holiday ... but there is nothing to prove it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 08:00:17 PM
What does Kate's clothing have to do with the fact the inspections were screwed up?

From the files, the closest we get to an explanation of the inspection at the gym is this:

Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, [the gym!] attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

There was only one, apparent, "reaction" at the Rua das Flores, 27, and that was to cuddle-cat.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 08:02:13 PM
It is likely the clothes were taken out with them at the start of the holiday ... but there is nothing to prove it.
And BTW it's proven this clothing item was already owned before Apr 28th.
Next to identify its exact location in the apartment...
IMO it is visible directly above the plane top in the pile in the PJ photo that night.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 08:06:47 PM
What does Kate's clothing have to do with the fact the inspections were screwed up?

From the files, the closest we get to an explanation of the inspection at the gym is this:

Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, [the gym!] attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

There was only one, apparent, "reaction" at the Rua das Flores, 27, and that was to cuddle-cat.
There are two "reactions" seen in the villa video. Neither is to the cat IMO. The first is to something on top of the sideboard because that is where the dog sniffed just before he "reacted". The second "reaction" is possibly to a dining chair or to the area near that chair.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 08:11:51 PM
There are two "reactions" seen in the villa video. Neither is to the cat IMO. The first is to something on top of the sideboard because that is where the dog sniffed just before he "reacted". The second "reaction" is possibly to a dining chair or to the area near that chair.

'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''


The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.

(Martin Grime)

Under other circumstances, I might ask what the hell your opinion has to do with anything ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 08:19:07 PM
And BTW it's proven this clothing item was already owned before Apr 28th.
Next to identify its exact location in the apartment...
IMO it is visible directly above the plane top in the pile in the PJ photo that night.

That orange and white "blob" in the wardrobe photo looks nothing like the red t-shirt. It is futile trying to match clear large photos of clothing items with that blurry pile IMO unless there is something substantial to work with. You reckon that the white on the orange background is one of the planes on the red t shirt...the scale of the item in the wardrobe picture would be all wrong for starters, iyswim

But let's say all three/four tems Eddie picked up in the gym inspection were there. What is your argument again?

That they were not being worn on May 3 because they were in the wardrobe at 3am or whenever it was these photos were taken. That doesn't matter very much IF cadaver odour was on them. The scent is easily transferable we are told, either naturally from an original source or by contamination by humans.
TBH I'm finding it hard to follow any full theory here.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 08:30:11 PM
That orange and white "blob" in the wardrobe photo looks nothing like the red t-shirt. It is futile trying to match clear large photos of clothing items with that blurry pile IMO unless there is something substantial to work with. You reckon that the white on the orange background is one of the planes on the red t shirt...the scale of the item in the wardrobe picture would be all wrong for starters, iyswim

But let's say all three/four tems Eddie picked up in the gym inspection were there. What is your argument again?

That they were not being worn on May 3 because they were in the wardrobe at 3am or whenever it was these photos were taken. That doesn't matter very much IF cadaver odour was on them. The scent is easily transferable we are told, either naturally from an original source or by contamination by humans.
TBH I'm finding it hard to follow any full theory here.
The scale of the fuselage is correct IMO.
And the scale of checks on the item above it IMO.
And I don't have a full theory.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 08:31:59 PM
It is likely the clothes were taken out with them at the start of the holiday ... but there is nothing to prove it.

And there's no photos of Kate in PDL before 4 May so you don't know what she was wearing on holiday. About to go back home with no photos of yourself with your kids in PDL. Very strange when you brought a camera. There are big question marks against her before the disappearance. Not watching Madeleine sailing, not bringing the kids to the beach with the others, the series of phone calls just before the reported crying and sleeping in the spare bed the night before the disappearance. And then they do a big family photoshoot with the twins as a family of 4 not long after Madeleine's gone.

1485
 'Was Kate with you''
 
 Reply
 'No, no, Kate didn't come. They, they tended to use the kids club in the afternoon, for the twins as well as Madeleine, and they were the only ones really doing that, as I say, Ella sometimes went in in the afternoon, but the younger ones, you know, none of us put them in in the afternoon. So, again, that's generally why we didn't see them because they had things booked to do in the afternoon without the kids and we didn't. So, you know, we had asked them but, you know, they had tennis lessons or something. So, yeah, we all headed, we headed off and then, once we were on the beach, we were, we were a little while just sort of the women and the kids really playing on the beach, you know, sandcastles and stuff.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

The lesson ended an hour afterwards, close to 4:30PM. Gerry continued playing tennis with a guest called Jxxxxn who belonged to his tennis group, while she went for a jog along the beach, for around half an hour. She saw the others of the group, children and grownups; she was disappointed as nobody had told her they were going to the beach and Madeleine would have loved to have gone with them. She cannot confirm whether she went to the apartment between the tennis game and the jog.

When she finished jogging, around 5:20/5:30PM she went to the Tapas area. Gerry was there, as well as the twins and Madeleine who were eating at separate tables. Madeleine had been taken to the Tapas by the nannies. Her parents were required to sign the register when the meal was over. During the meal Kate asked Madeleine if she was sad because the other children in the group had gone to the beach without her: she replied that she wasn't, but was rather tired. She asked Kate to carry her back to the apartment. Kate agreed, and Gerry led the twins back to the apartment. Tiredness was due to the intense daily activities, not to any sickness.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

 &%+((£
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 08:38:17 PM
The plain fact is that there should never have been an inspection at the villa because Madeleine never lived there.

And there should never have been an inspection at the gym because Madeleine never went near the gym.

For a clue to what Grime was playing at, you have to look forward to another continent, a different case and an entirely different discipline. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 08:50:42 PM
The scale of the fuselage is correct IMO.
And the scale of checks on the item above it IMO.
And I don't have a full theory.

This is the red t shirt. As I understand it you are sayng that the image you posted (the orange and white piece)  is a small part of it? It does not scale IMO


(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME%20VIIIa_Processo_2113-.jpg)

(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6311.0;attach=5452)

(http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6311.0;attach=5453)

(http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P10/10VOLUME_Xa_Page_2563.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:05:12 PM
The plain fact is that there should never have been an inspection at the villa because Madeleine never lived there.

And there should never have been an inspection at the gym because Madeleine never went near the gym.

For a clue to what Grime was playing at, you have to look forward to another continent, a different case and an entirely different discipline.
No, it is not a plain fact. Seeing as the cadaver dog alerted to their first apartment, they had every reason to check everywhere else. They would be amiss NOT to, Besides, Harrison did recommend all residences and vehicles by the whole group be inspected.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on August 10, 2015, 09:07:55 PM
The plain fact is that there should never have been an inspection at the villa because Madeleine never lived there.

And there should never have been an inspection at the gym because Madeleine never went near the gym.

For a clue to what Grime was playing at, you have to look forward to another continent, a different case and an entirely different discipline.

Are you saying that the police are not entitled to look and search where they please?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 09:12:06 PM
This was the full extent of Harrison's recommendations for searches:

Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.

In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


Page 2228 :

Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.

These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.

Murat's Vehicles.

All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 09:14:36 PM
Are you saying that the police are not entitled to look and search where they please?

I'm saying that there was literally no point in searches in places Madeleine is known never to have gone near.

In fact, that what Mark Harrison says ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:17:50 PM
This was the full extent of Harrison's recommendations for searches:

Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.

In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

McCann's Apartment.

The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
Murat's House and Garden.

The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


Page 2228 :

Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.

These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.

Murat's Vehicles.

All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.


No, that wasnt the full extent, he also recommended all vehicles the tapas group had access to, and I have no idea why you keep posting things in bold. End of the day was recommendations not an order or warrant, the PJ decided to search further, as is their prerogative as a POLICE FORCE
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 09:19:41 PM
No, that wasnt the full extent, he also recommended all vehicles the tapas group had access to, and I have no idea why you keep posting things in bold. End of the day was recommendations not an order or warrant, the PJ decided to search further, as is their prerogative as a POLICE FORCE

I have read Mark Harrison's three reports in their entirety, seemingly more carefully than you.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on August 10, 2015, 09:22:32 PM
I'm saying that there was literally no point in searches in places Madeleine is known never to have gone near.

In fact, that what Mark Harrison says ....

But how would the police know where Madeleine did not go?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:22:45 PM
I have read Mark Harrison's three reports in their entirety, seemingly more carefully than you.
And that is supposed to be an answer to what?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:24:22 PM
But how would the police know where Madeleine did not go?

Dont ask hard questions or assume police have the right to investigate where they feel necessary. You'd think they should have been on Ferrymans leash or something. Quite astonishing.

I reckon that LP policeman was quoted correctly when he said people have been arrested for less in the UK!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 09:26:01 PM
And that is supposed to be an answer to what?

Your question.

What is your answer to my question?

Why inspections in places Madeleine never lived in or went near?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on August 10, 2015, 09:29:20 PM
Your question.

What is your answer to my question?

Why inspections in places Madeleine never lived in or went near?

How would you, or anyone know where she went?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 09:29:34 PM
This is the red t shirt. As I understand it you are sayng that the image you posted (the orange and white piece)  is a small part of it? It does not scale IMO
Yes that's what I'm saying. I will do some measurements and get back to you Mercury.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:36:59 PM
Your question.

What is your answer to my question?

Why inspections in places Madeleine never lived in or went near?

I already answered you, just read back

a) Cadaver scent was alerted to in 5a so police would be remiss not to search everywhere connected with the child
b) Its the police's prerogative!!
c) Harrison made "recommendations" The PJ werent monkeys, they could do what they thought might forward the case
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 09:37:17 PM
How would you, or anyone know where she went?

Madeleine disappeared on May 3rd. 

The villa was rented some days after the disappearance.

The gym was a venue for a search selected long after Madeleine was abducted (not by the McCanns)

It's not rocket-science.

Here is Harrison's reference to searches he had nothing to do with:

The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07.

It recommended considering re searching:
 
- All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
- The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
- Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
- Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
- A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.
 
These recommendations were based on the fact that these areas had not been previously searched with the specific intent to locate Madeleine McCann’s concealed and deceased body and that the areas recommended afforded likely and obvious places to consider for concealment in such an investigation.
 
This document was discussed on 23-07-07 with the PJ Director, myself and the Leicestershire Police liaison officer DI Neil Holden who made relevant notes.
 
On 25-07-07 the PJ Director decided his officers would re-search some of the areas suggested within the report. He also decided the order of their priority. These were the accommodation the McCann’s and their friends have occupied in Praia da Luz, the villa and the grounds occupied by Robert Murat, wasteland that surrounds these locations and any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared.
 


Note, these recommendations are not Harrisons.

And his summary of all searches, Harrison distances UK input from the searches he (Harrison) had nothing to do with ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on August 10, 2015, 09:38:38 PM
But who knows where she went after she disappeared?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 10, 2015, 09:38:50 PM
How would you, or anyone know where she went?

Random guesswork?
Best not assume then go the whole hog.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:40:21 PM
Yes that's what I'm saying. I will do some measurements and get back to you Mercury.

I don't see it myself, but plug away....you hVe the colour problem as well as the scale, but careful you don't get distracted and waste much time on something which might not matter at all
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 09:51:13 PM
@FerryMan
"searches he (Harrison) had nothing to do with"?
According to the files Harrison was present when Eddie searched 5A.
And present when Eddie searched the Rua das Flores villa.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 09:54:27 PM
@FerryMan
"searches he (Harrison) had nothing to do with"?
According to the files Harrison was present when Eddie searched 5A.
And present when Eddie searched the Rua das Flores villa.

AND the car inspections

but NO sign of Levy which some assert was taking the video!!

 @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 10:04:21 PM
I already answered you, just read back

a) Cadaver scent was alerted to in 5a so police would be remiss not to search everywhere connected with the child
b) Its the police's prerogative!!
c) Harrison made "recommendations" The PJ werent monkeys, they could do what they thought might forward the case

You are much too liberal in your use of the term cadaver scent.

Harrison never used in and was clear that no inferences could be drawn as to whether there had been a cadaver in any place.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 10:07:01 PM
@FerryMan
"searches he (Harrison) had nothing to do with"?
According to the files Harrison was present when Eddie searched 5A.
And present when Eddie searched the Rua das Flores villa.

He was present at the searches but had nothing to do with evolution of intent to inspect in those places Madeleine never lived in or went near.

He also distanced UK input from those searches in his summary (as I have already pointed out)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 10:10:46 PM
I don't see it myself, but plug away....you hVe the colour problem as well as the scale, but careful you don't get distracted and waste much time on something which might not matter at all
It matters very much exactly where in the apartment these items were Mercury.
An innocent individual was unjustly accused based on the illogical assumption they were being worn.
Re the colour problem you mention, if you take several photos of a red top in different lighting conditions, the red will be different in each photo.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 10, 2015, 10:17:25 PM
He was present at the searches but had nothing to do with evolution of intent to inspect in those places Madeleine never lived in or went near.

He also distanced UK input from those searches in his summary (as I have already pointed out)
But I already posted the letter dated 1st July which recommended obtaining warrants to search and bug the villa.
The reason it gives is - the findings of MH at 5A.
And he was there at the villa search.
But you are saying he had nothing to do with it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 10:32:33 PM
It matters very much exactly where in the apartment these items were Mercury.
An innocent individual was unjustly accused based on the illogical assumption they were being worn.
Re the colour problem you mention, if you take several photos of a red top in different lighting conditions, the red will be different in each photo.
I think you are confused by many things and confusing other things,no offence
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 10, 2015, 11:15:54 PM
It matters very much exactly where in the apartment these items were Mercury.
An innocent individual was unjustly accused based on the illogical assumption they were being worn.
Re the colour problem you mention, if you take several photos of a red top in different lighting conditions, the red will be different in each photo.

The child wasn't seen by any independent witness from 5:30 on 3 May. If they rounded up male suspects close to the sighting that night and a cadaver dog alerted to one of them do you think they would let him go? So somebody's clothes (the one who refused to answer questions as a suspect) being alerted along with a kids top is different. Why?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 10, 2015, 11:28:41 PM
But I already posted the letter dated 1st July which recommended obtaining warrants to search and bug the villa.
The reason it gives is - the findings of MH at 5A.
And he was there at the villa search.
But you are saying he had nothing to do with it?

Why do you suppose Harrison summarised both searches at villa and gym as "PJ exercises"?

And why do you suppose he acknowledged the input of Grime and his dogs only in inspections of the holiday apartments, the Murats' place and places in and around PdL?

And why did Harrison give no clue at all who took part in the inspection of vehciles?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 11:32:09 PM
I think you are confused by many things and confusing other things,no offence

The one thing you can say about Pegasus' posts is that they are always interesting.  She has unique way of looking at angles and has started many an interesting debate and discussion.
We would be a far poorer forum without her well thought through discussion points.  I think I see where her present train of thought is leading and although I'm not in agreement with the route we are going to get to it I'm finding it fascinating.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 10, 2015, 11:39:22 PM
The one thing you can say about Pegasus' posts is that they are always interesting.  She has unique way of looking at angles and has started many an interesting debate and discussion.
We would be a far poorer forum without her well thought through discussion points.  I think I see where her present train of thought is leading and although I'm not in agreement with the route we are going to get to it I'm finding it fascinating.

I always thought pegasus was a he, how interesting dont you thnk? assigning gender to handles?
I have no problem with pegasus at all

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 11:41:24 PM
The child wasn't seen by any independent witness from 5:30 on 3 May. If they rounded up male suspects close to the sighting that night and a cadaver dog alerted to one of them do you think they would let him go? So somebody's clothes (the one who refused to answer questions as a suspect) being alerted along with a kids top is different. Why?

I think you tend to put cadaver dogs on a pedestal; they are a cog in the machine.

In the example you have used of a dog alerting to one individual ... yes I think you would find that they would have to let him go ... if there was no corroborating evidence to justify holding him.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 10, 2015, 11:50:25 PM
I always thought pegasus was a he, how interesting dont you thnk? assigning gender to handles?
I have no problem with pegasus at all

LOL ... I have no idea about pegasus' gender either ... I took the concise analytical thought process and attention to detail to be female (sorry if I've offended by getting that wrong, pegasus)

Sorry if I was abrupt with you too, mercury, it is just I think pegasus is anything but confused.

  .... and we are way OT again.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 12:06:02 AM
LOL ... I have no idea about pegasus' gender either ... I took the concise analytical thought process and attention to detail to be female (sorry if I've offended by getting that wrong, pegasus)

Sorry if I was abrupt with you too, mercury, it is just I think pegasus is anything but confused.

  .... and we are way OT again.

mental abilities are never gender driven
And its ok i never need apologies, just honesty, but thanks
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 12:08:18 AM
The child wasn't seen by any independent witness from 5:30 on 3 May. If they rounded up male suspects close to the sighting that night and a cadaver dog alerted to one of them do you think they would let him go? So somebody's clothes (the one who refused to answer questions as a suspect) being alerted along with a kids top is different. Why?
Some clothing comes into direct contact with something.
You seem to assume that the clothing was being worn at the time.
Luckily I've got the book called "How to not make assumptions".
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 12:16:27 AM
Some clothing comes into direct contact with something.
You seem to assume that the clothing was being worn at the time.
Luckily I've got the book called "How to not make assumptions".

what did that clothing come into contact with then for the dog to alert then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 11, 2015, 12:36:57 AM
Some clothing comes into direct contact with something.
You seem to assume that the clothing was being worn at the time.
Luckily I've got the book called "How to not make assumptions".

And I've got a rule that suspects who don't want to clear themselves need further investigating.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 11, 2015, 12:39:00 AM
what did that clothing come into contact with then for the dog to alert then?

CONVENIENTLY,
Everyone keeps forgetting that Eddie was first trained to respond to living human odours and later to respond to Cadavar odours.  It has been thoroughly explained that training once given cannot be detrained.


Eddie was the wrong dog for the tasks, cos he alerted to living human odour as well as the smell of death.


No way of telling if he is responding to living scents or death scents.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 12:41:03 AM
CONVENIENTLY,
Everyone keeps forgetting that Eddie was first trained to respond to living human odours and later to respond to Cadavar odours.  It has been thoroughly explained that training once given cannot be detrained.


Eddie was the wrong dog for the tasks, cos he alerted to living human odour as well as the smell of death.


No way of telling if he is responding to living scents or death scents.
Rubbish Sadie, give it up
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 11, 2015, 12:44:33 AM
CONVENIENTLY,

Everyone keeps forgetting that Eddie was first trained to respond to living human odours and later to respond to Cadavar odours.  It has been thoroughly explained that training once given cannot be detrained.


Eddie was the wrong dog for the tasks, cos he alerted to living human odour as well as the smell of death.


No way of telling if he is responding to living scents or death scents.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 11, 2015, 12:50:34 AM
CONVENIENTLY,
Everyone keeps forgetting that Eddie was first trained to respond to living human odours and later to respond to Cadavar odours.  It has been thoroughly explained that training once given cannot be detrained.


Eddie was the wrong dog for the tasks, cos he alerted to living human odour as well as the smell of death.


No way of telling if he is responding to living scents or death scents.

VICTIM RECOVERY DOGS

Search Asset Profile

Victim recovery dogs (VRDs) are also known as body or cadaver dogs. They are used in many countries to assist the police in locating concealed human remains. In the UK, police dogs are used that are trained and licensed to a national standard.

Pig carcasses are used to train the dogs in the UK as it is not legal to use human cadavers. This is an established training method and enables the dogs to successfully detect human remains in operational case work.

Enhanced training to produce a EVRD.

The training of a VRD provides an alert response using Ivan Pavlov's theory of producing a conditioned reflex, in this case barking, to the presence of detected decomposing human/pig flesh, bone, body fluid and blood. The dog will bark, whether or not it is able to get to the source of the scent. The benefit of this reflex is that the dog will respond whenever the target scent is present.
This enables the dog to be used in an investigative role, assisting experts in other fields, such as, geophysics.

An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee.

The scent detection threshold of the dog is greatly enhanced. In operational deployment and in training, the dog is successful in detecting human remains, body fluids and blood, to cellular levels that can be recovered by low copy
analysis at forensic laboratories.

The proven capability of the EVRD is to :

Search to locate very small samples of human remains, body fluids and blood in any environment or terrain.

Identify sub-surface depositions to a depth of approximately one metre below the surface of the ground, depending on the scent permeability of the ground.
This depth is increased substantially when the ground is 'vented' prior to deployment.
Page 2232

Locate and give an alert to cross contamination by a cadaver. This is particularly valuable when the dog is used to assist in searches where the discovery of a body has prompted the investigation. The dog may locate secondary deposition sites and any areas of contamination, e.g., items of vehicles used to transport the body.

The generation, storage and migration of natural gases and body scent.

Gases from decomposing human remains may be dissolved in groundwater depending on the pressure, temperature or concentration of other gases or minerals in water. Dissolved gases may be advected by groundwater, and only when the pressure is reduced and the solubility limit of the gas in groundwater exceeded, do they come out of solution and form a separate gaseous phase.

'Scent', (cocktail mixtures of gases), from organic decaying remains can move through bedrock by diffusion, which is relatively slow, but if the bedrock is fractured, (eg, by bedding planes, joints and faults), the diffusion rate is increased. Gas and scent from organic decaying remains also migrate through rocks via intergranular permeability or, more particularly, along discontinuities. The hydrostatic head imposed by groundwater flows may also influence gas/organic scent emissions.

Determination of the migration pathway of gas/body scent depends on the geological, geomorphological and hydrogeological conditions and an understanding of the victim deposition site. Factors such as the surface and
groundwater flow paths, drainage, topography, runoff, precipitation rates, permeability of the soil and bedrock and hydrogeological domains, location of seeps and springs need to be determined if gases/human remains migration
pathways are to be determined.

The age of the source does not affect the process of scent movement but it will effect the concentration, as will the rate of decomposition. Body scent may be transported by 'leachate plumes' to emerge at the ground surface.

Page 2233

Figure 61 : Schematic illustration to show the influence of groundwater flows and the migration of body scent, which may be carried away from the grave site, as a lecahate plume, to emerge on the flanks.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 12:51:16 AM
CONVENIENTLY,
Everyone keeps forgetting that Eddie was first trained to respond to living human odours and later to respond to Cadavar odours.  It has been thoroughly explained that training once given cannot be detrained.


Eddie was the wrong dog for the tasks, cos he alerted to living human odour as well as the smell of death.


No way of telling if he is responding to living scents or death scents.


R.U.B.B.I.S.H.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 01:02:33 AM
what did that clothing come into contact with then for the dog to alert then?
The subject of contact is more complicated than it appears so I don't know.
My main point is that the trousers were for that entire evening not being worn.
Therefore the accusation against the person who owns them is illogical and unjust.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 01:07:33 AM
The subject of contact is more complicated than it appears so I don't know.
My main point is that the trousers were for that entire evening not being worn.
Therefore the accusation against the person who owns them is illogical and unjust.

But no one has accused the wearer of those trousers of anything

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 11, 2015, 01:16:52 AM

R.U.B.B.I.S.H.

To remind you, and explain it a little more carefully cos it seems you weren't able to understand

http://csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html


We call Eddie a Cadavar dog but in actual fact he is a Forensic Search Dog.

However, originally he was trained as a search dog for living humans so he would have been trained as a Decomp Dog  A term used to describe a canine that will indicate when a scent source is living human tissue, blood, semen, urine, feces, and materials that have been handled and worn by humans.



A dog can never be detrained to forget what he has earlier been trained so he is likely to alert to living human tissue, blood, semen, urine , feces and materials that have been handled and worn by humans as well as scents sourced from decomposing human tissue.


What a brilliant nose he has, but it seems that he is flawed because he may alert to living as well as decomposing bodies etc.  It clearly states in the Forensic Search Dog. section that a FSD should never have been crosstrained.

Eddie was.



Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


Hope this helps.  Eddie the dog that we call a Cadavar Dog is actually Forensic Search Dog and a Decomp Dog.

Because of this he might alert to living matter, such as blood, urine, feces semen etc from a living person as well as Decomposed matter from a dead person



Sorry, but because of his cross training it seems that this brilliant dog, Eddie, wasn't up to the task in hand.



He was also trained on dead pigs, so it is likely that he would alert to dead pig, I think.



Hope you can finally understand now

Nigh Night mercury.  Nigh night all
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 01:20:13 AM
T.O.T.A.L.   A..N.A.D.U.L.T.E.R.A.T. E.D    R. U.B.B.I.S.H
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 11, 2015, 01:45:32 AM
T.O.T.A.L.   A..N.A.D.U.L.T.E.R.A.T. E.D    R. U.B.B.I.S.H

Still got your charm, I see.

Cant you read and comprehend?

Use the webpage if you prefer

http://csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html



Nigh night mercury
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 01:53:03 AM
Cite for Eddie being a dog trained to find living humans? and matter from them NOT being anywhere else apart from 5 a , yes, ok
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 02:42:57 AM


And why did Harrison give no clue at all who took part in the inspection of vehciles?

Harrison was AT THE INSPECTION OF THE VEHICLES, why are you trying to rewrite history??? Sheesh, one might almost thnk you had some agenda!!
Did Harrison write a report AFTER all the searches and didnt give you a clue who was there and who did what??
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 09:36:58 AM
Harrison was AT THE INSPECTION OF THE VEHICLES, why are you trying to rewrite history??? Sheesh, one might almost thnk you had some agenda!!
Did Harrison write a report AFTER all the searches and didnt give you a clue who was there and who did what??

Harrison acknowledged the involvement of Grime and his dogs in those searches he recommended: the places Madeleine either had been or (please God not!) might have been.

There was literally no function or purpose that served the enquiry in searches in the other places.

That's why Harrison turned his back on them.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 11, 2015, 10:55:48 AM
Harrison acknowledged the involvement of Grime and his dogs in those searches he recommended: the places Madeleine either had been or (please God not!) might have been.

There was literally no function or purpose that served the enquiry in searches in the other places.

That's why Harrison turned his back on them.

Harrison was involved with these dogs years before the McCann case. He knew them very well.

Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year. Friday 30 December 2005

http://news.sky.com/story/395084/keelas-nose-makes-her-top-dog
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 11:10:03 AM
Harrison was involved with these dogs years before the McCann case. He knew them very well.

Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year. Friday 30 December 2005

http://news.sky.com/story/395084/keelas-nose-makes-her-top-dog

The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 11, 2015, 11:15:52 AM
The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

That is common sense but it's not the be all and end all in a circumstantial evidence case.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 11:25:23 AM
That is common sense but it's not the be all and end all in a circumstantial evidence case.

There is no circumstantial evidence (at least against the McCanns) -- still less, hard evidence.

All we have are two dogs incompetently deployed and solid evidence placing Gerry in the Tapas restaurant at the time of Kate's alert and the Smith sighting.

That's why the judge at the libel trial against Amaral commented that the McCanns are innocent -- also (part of the reason) why the McCanns won the libel trial  ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 11, 2015, 11:36:27 AM
There is no circumstantial evidence (at least against the McCanns) -- still less, hard evidence.

All we have are two dogs incompetently deployed and solid evidence placing Gerry in the Tapas restaurant at the time of Kate's alert and the Smith sighting.

That's why the judge at the libel trial against Amaral commented that the McCanns are innocent -- also (part of the reason) why the McCanns won the libel trial  ....

The fast watch timeline will be blown to pieces and there's many alerts. The judge told Gerry to zip it about the dogs.

GMC says that he wants to make a comment about the dogs; he wants to make it clear that it is not a fact that they detected blood...

The judge interrupts him – The issue here isn't not to elucidate what actually happened. The perspective, in this trial, is to determine whether the book and the documentary affected the plaintiffs.

GMC – But the book mentions facts that aren't true.

The judge – The point isn't to establish whether things are true or not, this is not the issue. We want to know whether we are in the juridical remit of offence to persons. For this it's not necessary to know what the truth is. As a judge I'm not supposed to stand in for a criminal investigation. (Source Anne Guedes)

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 11:41:49 AM
The faith people put in Anne Guide's transcripts is no odds to anyone ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 11, 2015, 11:49:05 AM
The faith people put in Anne Guide's transcripts is no odds to anyone ....


Tuesday 08 July 2014
martinbrunt@skymartinbrunt · 5h
##Madeleine Gerry McCann tells court Amaral "wrong" to write in book sniffer dogs detected blood and "smell of death" in family apartment
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 11, 2015, 12:03:21 PM
But no one has accused the wearer of those trousers of anything

Interesting that the wearer of the trousers was constituted arguida and a book was written in justification.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 12:21:15 PM
Anne was there.

Tuesday 08 July 2014
martinbrunt@skymartinbrunt · 5h
##Madeleine Gerry McCann tells court Amaral "wrong" to write in book sniffer dogs detected blood and "smell of death" in family apartment

It was, of course, Anne who made a complete pigs' ear of the testimony of Alan Pike.

That's not paranoia.

That's fact ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on August 11, 2015, 01:01:41 PM
Cite for Eddie being a dog trained to find living humans? and matter from them NOT being anywhere else apart from 5 a , yes, ok

I also would like to know where it says Eddie was trained twice? I haven't seen that anywhere.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 02:26:09 PM
It's surprising those so desperate to rubbish the dog alerts haven't picked on canine pregnancy yet.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 11, 2015, 02:29:47 PM
It's surprising those so desperate to rubbish the dog alerts haven't picked on canine pregnancy yet.
Eddie was pregnant?!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 02:32:38 PM
Eddie was pregnant?!

I have a dim and distant memory from way-back, to a suggestion that Keela might have been pregnant.

I couldn't give you a quote for that, though ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 11, 2015, 02:39:17 PM
I have a dim and distant memory from way-back, to a suggestion that Keela might have been pregnant.

I couldn't give you a quote for that, though ...

That is correct....


I have trained and handle two operational specialist search dogs. 'Eddie' is a 7-year old English Springer spaniel dog. 'Keela' is a three-year old English Springer spaniel pregnant dog. I also have a six-month old English Springer spaniel dog, puppy, in training, 'Morse' .

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 11, 2015, 03:19:34 PM
That is correct....


I have trained and handle two operational specialist search dogs. 'Eddie' is a 7-year old English Springer spaniel dog. 'Keela' is a three-year old English Springer spaniel pregnant dog. I also have a six-month old English Springer spaniel dog, puppy, in training, 'Morse' .

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html

Morse learnt from the master Eddie. Look at his training record results. They detect odour 2 hours after death. So we know who the prime suspects are in this case.

(http://s7.postimg.org/904ruim23/morserecord.jpg)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 03:20:31 PM
PJ photo of shirt:  width of white fuselage = about 1/30th of shirt length.
PJ photo of wardrobe: width of white detail on red item  = about 1/30th of length of jacket on wardrobe doorknob
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 03:25:08 PM
@Pathfinder. It would be interesting to find how he obtained that figure of two hours.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 11, 2015, 03:30:23 PM
@Pathfinder. It would be interesting to find how he obtained that figure of two hours.

By doing tests to get those results.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 11, 2015, 03:38:14 PM
By doing tests to get those results.
Yes but how did they get permission to use a body that had been dead for only two hours in order to do this test?  "I'm sorry, your husband has died, now do you mind if we whisk his body off to a do a test on Eddie and Keela?" I don't think so!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 11, 2015, 03:44:22 PM
PJ photo of shirt:  width of white fuselage = about 1/30th of shirt length.
PJ photo of wardrobe: width of white detail on red item  = about 1/30th of length of jacket on wardrobe doorknob

so cardigan/jacket 18 inches.0.6 inches sounds about right pegusas.
We should also remember that items in the foreground will appear larger.
I was trying to compare with what looks like Kate's trouser leg bottom (closer to the red item) side to side approx. 10 inches and came up with motive on teeshirt as .75 of an inch.
Not sure what any of this means, or indeed if it is the tshirt in question. or a small red crumpled item with a white sock on top.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 03:57:01 PM
Of far greater significance than the measurement of clothing is what the hell any police dog was doing at a crime-scene picking stuff up its mouth.

Outrageous ill-discipline, even in respect of clothing in ordinary circulation as clothing is for a full 3 months after Madeleine's abduction.

Just  no justification for "inspection" of such clothing, irrespective of the fact that the manner of the "inspections" was farcical ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 11, 2015, 04:12:16 PM
Of far greater significance than the measurement of clothing is what the hell any police dog was doing at a crime-scene picking stuff up its mouth.

Outrageous ill-discipline, even in respect of clothing in ordinary circulation as clothing is for a full 3 months after Madeleine's abduction.

Just  no justification for "inspection" of such clothing, irrespective of the fact that the manner of the "inspections" was farcical ....

Would not Eddie have destroyed any forensics with slobber?  Or do they take out the slobber before they test it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 04:17:17 PM
Yes but how did they get permission to use a body that had been dead for only two hours in order to do this test?  "I'm sorry, your husband has died, now do you mind if we whisk his body off to a do a test on Eddie and Keela?" I don't think so!
All that is needed is to briefly place a special scent pad in contact with the subject, at whatever post-mortem interval is required. That scent pad is then sealed in a special container, which can be used on later dates.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 11, 2015, 04:23:39 PM
Would not Eddie have destroyed any forensics with slobber?  Or do they take out the slobber before they test it?

Was anything found by forensic? I thought this clothes inspection only resulted in certain people believing that it was cadaver scent.
I guess they have a slobber test too, Eleanor  @)(++(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 11, 2015, 04:28:33 PM
Morse learnt from the master Eddie. Look at his training record results. They detect odour 2 hours after death. So we know who the prime suspects are in this case.

(http://s7.postimg.org/904ruim23/morserecord.jpg)

Morse's training record results are documented and independently verified ... do you have a cite for the equivalent regarding Eddie's performance.

Does the onset of rigor mortis feature anywhere in your pet theory?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 05:07:45 PM
so cardigan/jacket 18 inches.0.6 inches sounds about right pegusas.
We should also remember that items in the foreground will appear larger.
I was trying to compare with what looks like Kate's trouser leg bottom (closer to the red item) side to side approx. 10 inches and came up with motive on teeshirt as .75 of an inch.
Not sure what any of this means, or indeed if it is the tshirt in question. or a small red crumpled item with a white sock on top.
In the PJ photo of red shirt, the width of white fuselage = about 1/30th of shirt length.
In the PJ photo of wardrobe: the width of white detail on red item  = about 1/30th of length of jacket on doorknob.
I assume the jacket hanging on the wardrobe doorknob is the same real length as the red shirt.
If so then the white detail on the red item in the wardrobe is quite accurately the correct width to be the white aircraft fuselage of the red shirt.


 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 05:12:44 PM
Was anything found by forensic? I thought this clothes inspection only resulted in certain people believing that it was cadaver scent.
I guess they have a slobber test too, Eleanor  @)(++(*

Is right.

Nothing (of clothing!) was sent to the FSS.

Still more farcical is that in the gym, Keela (the blood dog!) was deployed first and didn't react.

So why was Eddie deployed at all?

Uncorroborated dog alerts are excluded as evidence in any English court of law.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 11, 2015, 05:15:42 PM
In the PJ photo of red shirt, the width of white fuselage = about 1/30th of shirt length.
In the PJ photo of wardrobe: the width of white detail on red item  = about 1/30th of length of jacket on doorknob.
I assume the jacket hanging on the wardrobe doorknob is the same real length as the red shirt.
If so then the white detail on the red item in the wardrobe is quite accurately the correct width to be the white aircraft fuselage of the red shirt.


 

So you think the t shirt, Kate's trousers and possibly the white t'shirt in the wardrobe, all came from that shelf that may have been contaminated. That could mean many things, considering the amount of people with their clothing and suitcases, who had used 5A.
What do think was responsible for the X contamination?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 11, 2015, 05:16:48 PM
All that is needed is to briefly place a special scent pad in contact with the subject, at whatever post-mortem interval is required. That scent pad is then sealed in a special container, which can be used on later dates.
That is still using a very recently deceased person in a test scenario.  I'd like to see some actual cites of similar tests using people who have been dead for two hours or less.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 11, 2015, 05:22:35 PM
Is right.

Nothing (of clothing!) was sent to the FSS.

Still more farcical is that in the gym, Keela (the blood dog!) was deployed first and didn't react.

So why was Eddie deployed at all?

Uncorroborated dog alerts are excluded as evidence in any English court of law.

Keela didn't alert to blood, so in their reasoning, Eddie could only alert to Cadaver scent.

A dog may alert when there is no target…. Negative alert.
No forensic matter remains to be investigated.
The alerts will always remain no more than indications and not of evidential value in a court of law, without corroborating evidence.

However, Mr Amaral believed the alerts to be proof of a death, as do some others.
Who knows for certain whether she was alive or dead, except for the culprit(s) who removed Madeleine, of course.

I was thinking of the slobber(saliva) issue that was raised. Did a supposed semen spot sent to forensic lab in UK, not turn out to be saliva?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 05:25:15 PM
Keela didn't alert to blood, so in their reasoning, Eddie could only alert to Cadaver scent.

A dog may alert when there is no target…. Negative alert.
No forensic matter remains to be investigated.
The alerts will always remain no more than indications and not of evidential value in a court of law, without corroborating evidence.

However, Mr Amaral believed the alerts to be proof of a death, as do some others.
Who knows for certain whether she was alive or dead, except for the culprit(s) who removed Madeleine, of course.

I was thinking of the slobber(saliva) issue that was raised. Did a supposed semen spot sent to forensic lab in UK, not turn out to be saliva?

It did, although (I have always assumed!) human saliva.

Perhaps I was wrong.

Maybe it was canine saliva?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 11, 2015, 05:27:32 PM
Morse's training record results are documented and independently verified ... do you have a cite for the equivalent regarding Eddie's performance.

Does the onset of rigor mortis feature anywhere in your pet theory?

Eddie will have training records and excellent ones to be known as the best dog. I follow evidence not any allegiance. That's another reason you can't leave anybody inside that apartment for too long.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 11, 2015, 05:30:11 PM
It did, although (I have always assumed!) human saliva.

Perhaps I was wrong.

Maybe it was canine saliva?

If I remember correctly, It was of a child who stayed at 5A. I wonder if they can check for Canine saliva? I should think that they would have to be able to eliminate it from their inspections where a dog has been involved in finding a body.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 11, 2015, 05:39:03 PM
Eddie will have training records and excellent ones to be known as the best dog. I follow evidence not any allegiance. That's another reason you can't leave anybody inside that apartment for too long.
is there a world ranking of EVRD dogs?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 05:41:38 PM
That is still using a very recently deceased person in a test scenario.  I'd like to see some actual cites of similar tests using people who have been dead for two hours or less.
Yes but it is easier to do because there is no need to keep the body.
Also it is possible to get lots of scent pads of one subject.
Do one scent pad at PMI 10 mins, another at PMI 20 minutes, etc.
I agree there is a big need for a detailed study to be done.
The best we have so far is the CSST study (no dogs alerted to a 70 minute pad, one dog out of five alerted to a 85 minute pad).
I will happily volunteer for it if I can have a flexible appointment date.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 11, 2015, 06:03:11 PM
Yes but it is easier to do because there is no need to keep the body.
Also it is possible to get lots of scent pads of one subject.
Do one scent pad at PMI 10 mins, another at PMI 20 minutes, etc.
I agree there is a big need for a detailed study to be done.
The best we have so far is the CSST study (no dogs alerted to a 70 minute pad, one dog out of five alerted to a 85 minute pad).
I will happily volunteer for it if I can have a flexible appointment date.

OH No! I wouldn't want people pawing all over my body when I'm dead or covering me with scent pads, Yuk!
Besides I'm allergic to so many materials.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 11, 2015, 06:16:28 PM
is there a world ranking of EVRD dogs?

Why don't you contact him to find out about Eddie.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/rex-stockham/39/6a8/aa0

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. (MG)

Lane tried to diss Eddie about coconut island.

Grime submitted Morse and Keela's training reports into evidence. Over the course of 49 tests, Morse gave no false negative or false positive responses to tests in controlled environments. He gave one “unexplained” response, which was a single bark in a “blank” room. Morse scored 100 percent in tests on December 2 and December 6, 2011. Morse was tested on variety of dates between January 21, 2011, and February 13, 2013. Morse scored 100 percent in all but one test, on which he scored 95 to 100 percent. Morse did not give false positive responses to animal remains during his tests.

Lane contends that defense counsel provided ineffective assistance when he failed to impeach Grime with evidence that one of his cadaver dogs, Eddie, in 2009 had alerted to the odor of decomposition on what was determined to be a piece of coconut shell. We disagree.
The basis of Lane's claim is that counsel was ineffective for failing to admit certain impeachment evidence. Lane contends that Grime testified that his dogs are 100 percent accurate, and that counsel should have impeached Grime with the evidence involving Eddie. Lane bases his argument on a factual predicate that the record does not support.
The defendant must show the factual predicates of his or her claims on appeal.68 Here, Grime testified that Morse's proficiency test results were “very high” and that, during specific training dates before and after December 4, 2011, Morse tested 100 percent positive and with 100 percent efficiency. However, Grime did not testify that “his dogs” were 100 percent accurate or flawless. To the contrary, when asked whether Morse was “pretty much perfect,” Grime testified that he “wouldn't say that,” and that his dogs were not 100 percent correct.
Because Grime never testified that his dogs were 100 percent accurate, evidence of a specific instance in which one of Grime's dogs was inaccurate was not probative of Grime's truthfulness and would not have been valid impeachment evidence. Accordingly, we reject Lane's assertion of ineffective assistance of counsel because he has failed to establish the factual basis of his claim.
- See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html#sthash.XUzHeLLF.dpuf
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 11, 2015, 06:23:41 PM
Why don't you contact him to find out about Eddie.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/rex-stockham/39/6a8/aa0

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. (MG)

Lane tried to diss Eddie about coconut island.

Grime submitted Morse and Keela's training reports into evidence. Over the course of 49 tests, Morse gave no false negative or false positive responses to tests in controlled environments. He gave one “unexplained” response, which was a single bark in a “blank” room. Morse scored 100 percent in tests on December 2 and December 6, 2011. Morse was tested on variety of dates between January 21, 2011, and February 13, 2013. Morse scored 100 percent in all but one test, on which he scored 95 to 100 percent. Morse did not give false positive responses to animal remains during his tests.

Lane contends that defense counsel provided ineffective assistance when he failed to impeach Grime with evidence that one of his cadaver dogs, Eddie, in 2009 had alerted to the odor of decomposition on what was determined to be a piece of coconut shell. We disagree.
The basis of Lane's claim is that counsel was ineffective for failing to admit certain impeachment evidence. Lane contends that Grime testified that his dogs are 100 percent accurate, and that counsel should have impeached Grime with the evidence involving Eddie. Lane bases his argument on a factual predicate that the record does not support.
The defendant must show the factual predicates of his or her claims on appeal.68 Here, Grime testified that Morse's proficiency test results were “very high” and that, during specific training dates before and after December 4, 2011, Morse tested 100 percent positive and with 100 percent efficiency. However, Grime did not testify that “his dogs” were 100 percent accurate or flawless. To the contrary, when asked whether Morse was “pretty much perfect,” Grime testified that he “wouldn't say that,” and that his dogs were not 100 percent correct.
Because Grime never testified that his dogs were 100 percent accurate, evidence of a specific instance in which one of Grime's dogs was inaccurate was not probative of Grime's truthfulness and would not have been valid impeachment evidence. Accordingly, we reject Lane's assertion of ineffective assistance of counsel because he has failed to establish the factual basis of his claim.
- See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html#sthash.XUzHeLLF.dpuf

rubbish I'm afraid
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 11, 2015, 06:43:43 PM
Why don't you contact him to find out about Eddie.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/rex-stockham/39/6a8/aa0

'False' positives are always a possibility; to date Eddie has not so indicated
operationally or in training. (MG)

Lane tried to diss Eddie about coconut island.

Grime submitted Morse and Keela's training reports into evidence. Over the course of 49 tests, Morse gave no false negative or false positive responses to tests in controlled environments. He gave one “unexplained” response, which was a single bark in a “blank” room. Morse scored 100 percent in tests on December 2 and December 6, 2011. Morse was tested on variety of dates between January 21, 2011, and February 13, 2013. Morse scored 100 percent in all but one test, on which he scored 95 to 100 percent. Morse did not give false positive responses to animal remains during his tests.

Lane contends that defense counsel provided ineffective assistance when he failed to impeach Grime with evidence that one of his cadaver dogs, Eddie, in 2009 had alerted to the odor of decomposition on what was determined to be a piece of coconut shell. We disagree.
The basis of Lane's claim is that counsel was ineffective for failing to admit certain impeachment evidence. Lane contends that Grime testified that his dogs are 100 percent accurate, and that counsel should have impeached Grime with the evidence involving Eddie. Lane bases his argument on a factual predicate that the record does not support.
The defendant must show the factual predicates of his or her claims on appeal.68 Here, Grime testified that Morse's proficiency test results were “very high” and that, during specific training dates before and after December 4, 2011, Morse tested 100 percent positive and with 100 percent efficiency. However, Grime did not testify that “his dogs” were 100 percent accurate or flawless. To the contrary, when asked whether Morse was “pretty much perfect,” Grime testified that he “wouldn't say that,” and that his dogs were not 100 percent correct.
Because Grime never testified that his dogs were 100 percent accurate, evidence of a specific instance in which one of Grime's dogs was inaccurate was not probative of Grime's truthfulness and would not have been valid impeachment evidence. Accordingly, we reject Lane's assertion of ineffective assistance of counsel because he has failed to establish the factual basis of his claim.
- See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html#sthash.XUzHeLLF.dpuf
There isn't a world ranking for EVRD dogs is there?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 06:45:06 PM

So you think the t shirt, Kate's trousers and possibly the white t'shirt in the wardrobe, all came from that shelf that may have been contaminated. That could mean many things, considering the amount of people with their clothing and suitcases, who had used 5A.
What do think was responsible for the X contamination?
I don't know. My "How to not overcomplicate things" book by Ockham is on a cupboard shelf under a pile of clothes, it is in direct contact with the surface of the shelf, and also in direct contact with a few of the clothes.
BTW has anyone else here read it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 06:57:07 PM
Imcoconutment is the accurate legal word (see Swallow v. Swallow, 1975).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 06:59:28 PM
Imcoconutment is the accurate legal word.

 @)(++(*

....

P.S. Thanks for the clothes scaling, but I have made my views clear, not going to labour the issue any more
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 11, 2015, 07:11:29 PM
OH No! I wouldn't want people pawing all over my body when I'm dead or covering me with scent pads, Yuk!
Besides I'm allergic to so many materials.
:)
Back to Amaral, dogs, and the wardrobe. Grey-white check turns to grey when blurred.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 11, 2015, 07:14:17 PM
:)
Back to Amaral, dogs, and the wardrobe. Grey-white check turns to grey when blurred.

True
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 08:45:48 PM
The faith people put in Anne Guide's transcripts is no odds to anyone ....

Then you don't have the right to quote anything from any of them in support of any argument,surely.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 08:47:05 PM
Interesting that the wearer of the trousers was constituted arguida and a book was written in justification.

Both of the couple were made arguidos and not just because the dog alerted to her trousers or his t shirt.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 11, 2015, 08:52:34 PM
Both of the couple were made arguidos and not just because the dog alerted to her trousers or his t shirt.

The dog tossed Sean's tee shirt around ~ which apparently passes as an 'alert' in some circles.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 08:55:17 PM
The dog tossed Sean's tee shirt around ~ which apparently passes as an 'alert' in some circles.
Grime was the handler, if it was good enough for him, it should be for everyone ele, and of course, it wasn't just Sean's t shirt the dog was interested in, but Gerry's white t-shirt as well (Pathfinder posted about it a short whle ago)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 09:15:27 PM
Both of the couple were made arguidos and not just because the dog alerted to her trousers or his t shirt.

Not just because?

Ian Horrocks made reference to the irrelevant behaviour of the dogs ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 09:22:15 PM
Not just because?

Ian Horrocks made reference to the irrelevant behaviour of the dogs ....

Well, Im sure you loved and agreed with his "comments", whoever this is
If sniffer dogs "behaviour" was "irrelevant" they would not be used in the first place



Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 11, 2015, 09:30:38 PM
Well, Im sure you loved and agreed with his "comments", whoever this is
If sniffer dogs "behaviour" was "irrelevant" they would not be used in the first place

As a generic statement, that is, of course, untrue.

With specific reference to PdL and the McCanns, it's fair to say that if the dogs had been deployed properly, the McCanns might never have been made arguidos.

Admittedly, with a loose cannon like Amaral, that can't be said certainly. 

Amaral might have found some other pretext or excuse ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 11, 2015, 10:36:37 PM
As a generic statement, that is, of course, untrue.

With specific reference to PdL and the McCanns, it's fair to say that if the dogs had been deployed properly, the McCanns might never have been made arguidos.

Admittedly, with a loose cannon like Amaral, that can't be said certainly. 

Amaral might have found some other pretext or excuse ....

So do tell where Mr Grime was incompetent, or rather don't, as we have heard  it all before and without a shred of evidence

Amaral and his team could say or suggest or surmise whatever they thought, but it wasn't up to them if the Mccanns were made arguidos
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 12:35:01 AM
So, police DO change the  course in an investigation from missing when dogs are brought in, silly UK police hey? Its only the Portuguese who are supposed to do that!

He was questioned as a witness in a missing person case, a status that changed when sniffer dogs indicated that a body had been in Pacteau’s car. DNA samples taken from his apartment showed traces of Ms Buckley’s blood.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/he-robbed-us-of-our-beautiful-daughter-and-sister-buckley-family-issue-statement-690536.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 01:21:40 AM
@Anna This image you posted is interesting. Did you only brighten it, and nothing else? 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 07:12:22 AM
Well, Im sure you loved and agreed with his "comments", whoever this is
If sniffer dogs "behaviour" was "irrelevant" they would not be used in the first place

The dogs are used to find evidence and they are very good at it. In this case the dogs found no evidence
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 07:37:20 AM
The dogs are used to find evidence and they are very good at it. In this case the dogs found no evidence

Rollocks.

The dogs alerted.

Forensic results were inconclusive.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 07:38:35 AM
Rollocks.

The dogs alerted.

Forensic results were inconclusive.

the dogs found no evidence...fact
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 07:38:53 AM
A message for members  of this Forum who do not believe that cadaver dogs have been tested on recently dead individuals

http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg%201998.pdf

'' Both men (A and B)
had publicly collapsed and died despite comprehensive resuscitative efforts. At
the start of our investigation, the postmortem interval for both men (A and B)
was measured at 110 and 120 min, respectively''
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 07:39:40 AM
the dogs found no evidence...fact

Rubbish.

The forensics were inconclusive.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 07:40:29 AM
"He was questioned as a witness in a missing person case, a status that changed when sniffer dogs indicated that a body had been in Pacteau's car."

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/he-robbed-us-of-our-beautiful-daughter-and-sister-buckley-family-issue-statement-690536.html
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 07:42:32 AM
Rubbish.

The forensics were inconclusive.

the dogs found no evidence
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 07:45:09 AM
the dogs found no evidence

Evidence YES.

Forensics were inconclusive.

Now which group of people messed up the crime scene before the police got there ?

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 07:47:30 AM
Evidence YES.

Forensics were inconclusive.

Now which group of people messed up the crime scene before the police got there ?

the dogs found no evidence
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 07:50:47 AM
the dogs found no evidence

The dogs alerted, that is evidence.

Now if the dogs hadn't alerted............................... 8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 07:55:22 AM
The dogs alerted, that is evidence.

Now if the dogs hadn't alerted............................... 8)--))

the alerts have no evidential value according to Grime...but of course you know better
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 07:59:59 AM
The dogs alerted, that is evidence.

Now if the dogs hadn't alerted............................... 8)--))

the dog's alerts are not evidence.
All your beliefs and those of others on this forum are based on lies...it really is a waste of time having any sort of debate when you believe lies
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:00:26 AM
the alerts have no evidential value according to Grime...but of course you know better

Can you read what I have said again this morning ?

It would really help.

Perhaps you should keep a 'log' of the posts.  8)--)) 8)--)) 8)-)))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:01:50 AM
the dog's alerts are not evidence.
All your beliefs and those of others on this forum are based on lies...it really is a waste of time having any sort of debate when you believe lies

Rubbish as usual.

Also , your repeated mistakes in basic science and maths, show what your posts are worth. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 08:04:32 AM
Rubbish as usual.

Also , your repeated mistakes in basic science and maths, show what your posts are worth. 8)-)))

the dog's alerts are not evidence.
All your beliefs and those of others on this forum are based on lies...it really is a waste of time having any sort of debate when you believe lies
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:06:59 AM
the dog's alerts are not evidence.
All your beliefs and those of others on this forum are based on lies...it really is a waste of time having any sort of debate when you believe lies

It is well known where the lies originate.

EXACTLY WHERE THEY ORIGINATE. 8(0(*
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 12, 2015, 08:07:38 AM
"He was questioned as a witness in a missing person case, a status that changed when sniffer dogs indicated that a body had been in Pacteau's car."

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/he-robbed-us-of-our-beautiful-daughter-and-sister-buckley-family-issue-statement-690536.html

Are you saying that his status changed simply because the sniffer dogs indicated that body had been in Pacteau's car, Stephen? And that the change of status rested entirely on a sniffer dog alert?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 08:09:17 AM
It is well known where the lies originate.

EXACTLY WHERE THEY ORIGINATE. 8(0(*

the dogs alerts are not evidence...your claim is totally false....you cannot even get the basics right..
when you have been caught out you then try and deflect
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:14:07 AM
the dogs alerts are not evidence...your claim is totally false....you cannot even get the basics right..
when you have been caught out you then try and deflect

Let's make this simple for you.

The dogs alerted. FACT.

Forensics were inconclusive. FACT.

So either the dogs alerted to a body or they didn't.  FACT.

 8(0(*

and dogs are RELIABLE, VERY RELIABLE.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 08:16:31 AM
Let's make this simple for you.

The dogs alerted. FACT.

Forensics were inconclusive. FACT.

So either the dogs alerted to a body or they didn't.  FACT.

 8(0(*

and dogs are RELIABLE, VERY RELIABLE.

Alerts are not evidence.....fact...which is what you stated ..fact...you are 100% wrong...fact
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:17:58 AM
Alerts are not evidence.....fact...which is what you stated ..fact...you are 100% wrong...fact

They are circumstantial evidence.

I know what the laws of probability dictate in these circumstances.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 08:22:53 AM
They are circumstantial evidence.

I know what the laws of probability dictate in these circumstances.

they are not evidence...fact...and are not admissible in uk or Portuguese courts as circumstantial evidence ...fact...you are 100% wrong...fact

You do not have a clue what the laws of probability state in this instance...fact...as you do not have enough information..fact
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:26:47 AM
they are not evidence...fact...and are not admissible in uk or Portuguese courts as circumstantial evidence ...fact...you are 100% wrong...fact

You do not have a clue what the laws of probability state in this instance...fact...as you do not have enough information..fact


The alerts are circumstantial evidence.

You can't get away from that.

Hence why you, other 'supporters' and the mccanns, as the trial revealed, are still worried about the alerts.

and as far as the dogs are concerned, and the mccanns 'story', peoples minds are made up as to what really happened.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 08:33:04 AM


The alerts are circumstantial evidence.

You can't get away from that.

Hence why you, other 'supporters' and the mccanns, as the trial revealed, are still worried about the alerts.

and as far as the dogs are concerned, and the mccanns 'story', peoples minds are made up as to what really happened.



alerts...NO evidential value...do you understand the word NO...that's what both Grime and Harrison said and they are the experts.

you are 100% wrong...fact
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 12, 2015, 08:33:15 AM


The alerts are circumstantial evidence.

You can't get away from that.

Hence why you, other 'supporters' and the mccanns, as the trial revealed, are still worried about the alerts.

and as far as the dogs are concerned, and the mccanns 'story', peoples minds are made up as to what really happened.

Very revealing that you need to resort to insults in order to make your case.

The dogs have no more evidential value than any other form of search technique.  It is only the results of forensic analysis that has any evidential value whatever.  I know this is somewhat inconvenient to your argument, but it is the precise legal position.   
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:41:15 AM
Very revealing that you need to resort to insults in order to make your case.

The dogs have no more evidential value than any other form of search technique.  It is only the results of forensic analysis that has any evidential value whatever.  I know this is somewhat inconvenient to your argument, but it is the precise legal position.   

The insults are from davel as usual, not me.

Try to be precise on that, and the tactics on display are so well known.

I'm fully aware of the inconclusive forensics jp.

However, as this thread continues to demonstrate, and for very obvious reasons, it continues to be one of the main focuses of attention of mccanns supporters and of course, the mccanns themselves.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 08:44:20 AM
The insults are from davel as usual, not me.

Try to be precise on that, and the tactics on display are so well known.

I'm fully aware of the inconclusive forensics jp.

However, as this thread continues to demonstrate, and for very obvious reasons, it continues to be one of the main focuses of attention of mccanns supporters and of course, the mccanns themselves.

At least you have given up trying to claim the alerts are any type of evidence.....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2015, 08:47:26 AM

I am watching this.  Any post containing insults will be deleted.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:47:56 AM
At least you have given up trying to claim the alerts are any type of evidence.....

They remain circumstantial evidence.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 12, 2015, 08:50:47 AM
The insults are from davel as usual, not me.

Try to be precise on that, and the tactics on display are so well known.

I'm fully aware of the inconclusive forensics jp.

However, as this thread continues to demonstrate, and for very obvious reasons, it continues to be one of the main focuses of attention of mccanns supporters and of course, the mccanns themselves.

Hardly.  Let's face it, it's about the only thing "McCann septics" have to justify their continuing hate campaign against this unfortunate family. 

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:58:49 AM
Hardly.  Let's face it, it's about the only thing "McCann septics" have to justify their continuing hate campaign against this unfortunate family.

Oh dear.

The crime has yet to be ascertained jp.

'hate campaign' ???

That is observable from certain parties on both sides.

A simple inspection of the extreme forums on both sides will amply demonstrate that, won't it jp ?

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 09:30:26 AM
A message for members  of this Forum who do not believe that cadaver dogs have been tested on recently dead individuals

http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/HRD/Oesterhelweg%201998.pdf

'' Both men (A and B)
had publicly collapsed and died despite comprehensive resuscitative efforts. At
the start of our investigation, the postmortem interval for both men (A and B)
was measured at 110 and 120 min, respectively''
Thanks. Interesting study. PMIs of 110 mins and 120 mins. But isn't the maximum possible PMI in the theory in VdM film less than half that time? 45 mins?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 12, 2015, 09:33:00 AM
Oh dear.

The crime has yet to be ascertained jp.

'hate campaign' ???

That is observable from certain parties on both sides.

A simple inspection of the extreme forums on both sides will amply demonstrate that, won't it jp ?

If you wish to attach your argument to the activities of a bunch of nutters on both sides then that is your perogative. 

But I fail to see what it has to do with this forum or the current debate. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 09:35:30 AM
Thanks. Interesting study. PMIs of 110 mins and 120 mins. But isn't the maximum possible PMI in the theory in VdM film less than half that time? 45 mins?

Quite possible Pegasus, but that would depend on several variables.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 09:51:37 AM
Quite possible Pegasus, but that would depend on several variables.
The theory in the film allows only about 45 mins max.
But is there any evidence anywhere of a dog alerting to such a short interval?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 09:52:38 AM
The theory in the film allows only about 45 mins max.
But is there any evidence anywhere of a dog alerting to such a short interval?

I'll have a look later today.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 09:58:52 AM
I'll have a look later today.
Shortest I found was 70 mins and none of the dogs alerted http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
Yet the theory in that film seems to allow only about 45 mins (chat to just after alarm).
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 12, 2015, 10:09:46 AM
@Anna This image you posted is interesting. Did you only brighten it, and nothing else?

I believe that was all I done, Pegusas . I may have adjusted the contrast. Do you want me to crop the original and post it? I just wanted to see what was there more clearly.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 10:25:20 AM
I believe that was all I done, Pegusas . I may have adjusted the contrast. Do you want me to crop the original and post it? I just wanted to see what was there more clearly.
Thanks. no need to upload original. Your brightening made some things clearer like check. But now I see on original too.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 12:28:02 PM
Not just because?

Ian Horrocks made reference to the irrelevant behaviour of the dogs ....

Ian Horrocks.

Paid by the Sun.

As to his track record...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on August 12, 2015, 12:52:53 PM
Ian Horrocks.

Paid by the Sun.

As to his track record...

I think Redwood shot him down in flames;

Finally, and in my opinion, the most salient fact is that a male was seen at 9.15pm carrying a child who clearly fits Madeleine’s description. When taking everything together, this was clearly Madeleine, which therefore 100% rules out Mr and Mrs McCann as being involved in any way.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 12, 2015, 02:19:02 PM
So, police DO change the  course in an investigation from missing when dogs are brought in, silly UK police hey? Its only the Portuguese who are supposed to do that!

He was questioned as a witness in a missing person case, a status that changed when sniffer dogs indicated that a body had been in Pacteau’s car. DNA samples taken from his apartment showed traces of Ms Buckley’s blood.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/he-robbed-us-of-our-beautiful-daughter-and-sister-buckley-family-issue-statement-690536.html

He was a fantasist who discussed means of disposing of a body.

His image was captured on CCTV in the company of his victim.

He had been acquitted on a rape charge which was alleged to have occurred a short distance from where he battered his victim to death in his car with a spanner.

Traces of his victim were found in his flat where he had changed his mattress after enquiring how to remove blood from his old one.

He purchased caustic soda which he made into a solution in a drum and attempted to dissolve his victim's body in it.

He was familiar with the storage facilities on the farm where he had stored the drum and its contents having rented there before.

Forensic tests on the dirt trapped in the wheel treads of his vehicle showed matches for the soil from the farm where he dumped his victim's remains and from where he dumped her handbag.

That's all I can recall off the top of my head, I'm sure there will be more.


The example you have chosen to equate the value of police dog working bears absolutely no comparison or relation to what happened in Praia da Luz ... it is rather mean spirited of you to suggest such a thing.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on August 12, 2015, 02:32:44 PM
Interesting posts here on this unknown forum to me:

http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/t1945-poacher-s-view-on-grime-and-the-dogs (http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/t1945-poacher-s-view-on-grime-and-the-dogs)

The guy seems to work in the dog handling industry and claims to know Martin Grimes and offers some opinion on the alerts and Grimes himself.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 12, 2015, 02:50:59 PM
Interesting posts here on this unknown forum to me:

http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/t1945-poacher-s-view-on-grime-and-the-dogs (http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/t1945-poacher-s-view-on-grime-and-the-dogs)

The guy seems to work in the dog handling industry and claims to know Martin Grimes and offers some opinion on the alerts and Grimes himself.

Poacher seems to have made himself persona non grata because of his opinions.

Personally, I think he makes a lot of sense.

"The dog indicated the presence of one spot of blood deposited on a wall, subsequently washed off and left for six weeks.
 
It also indicated the mop and bucket used to wash the walls that had themselves been washed in disinfectant and left for six weeks.

As such the sensitivity of the dog's nose is such that innocent depositions can never be ruled out unless you have a controlled environment which the apartment and the hire car aren't."

In other words, if that example is accurate ... the cleaner mops a contaminated area somewhere in the areas allocated to her.  She washes and disinfects her mop.  She then uses the mop to clean up a spillage elsewhere.

Up to six weeks later, possibly more ... a cadaver dog inspects a room ... runs around daft looking for the scent source he knows is there ... and alerts.

Hardly surprising there is nothing there which can be picked up forensically ... and so a myth is born.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 12, 2015, 02:54:43 PM
Do we know anything conclusive about poachers credentials?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on August 12, 2015, 03:00:41 PM
Unfortunately not. Just an internet poster, so of course shouldn't be taken too seriously. He says this though:

For the record, as some of you will have worked out, I have worked with Martin Grime and his dogs and that includes setting licensing tests for them. I have also myself worked and trained police dogs though not in this field, and worked and trained with other cadaver dog handlers. I don't have links to these points because they are made from personal experience or are accounts relayed to me by reliable cadaver handlers.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: lordpookles on August 12, 2015, 03:25:56 PM
Poacher seems to have made himself persona non grata because of his opinions.

Personally, I think he makes a lot of sense.

"The dog indicated the presence of one spot of blood deposited on a wall, subsequently washed off and left for six weeks.
 
It also indicated the mop and bucket used to wash the walls that had themselves been washed in disinfectant and left for six weeks.

As such the sensitivity of the dog's nose is such that innocent depositions can never be ruled out unless you have a controlled environment which the apartment and the hire car aren't."

In other words, if that example is accurate ... the cleaner mops a contaminated area somewhere in the areas allocated to her.  She washes and disinfects her mop.  She then uses the mop to clean up a spillage elsewhere.

Up to six weeks later, possibly more ... a cadaver dog inspects a room ... runs around daft looking for the scent source he knows is there ... and alerts.

Hardly surprising there is nothing there which can be picked up forensically ... and so a myth is born.

If the guy is for real then it certainly adds another perspective. The dog alerts will always be ambiguous without forensic corroboration. He does say as Grimes himself says:

If the dogs indicated in the apartment then it is possible that there was something that they detected that forensic examination failed to find. It might be that the McCanns are guilty. There is enough in my posts to show that this is entirely possible. If you want me to say that the dog's indication proves beyond all doubt that they are guilty then I cannot. There is the slight chance that cross-contamination or other depositions caused one or more of the indications. As previously and repeatedly been said - forensic proves the case not the dogs.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 12, 2015, 04:21:02 PM
If the guy is for real then it certainly adds another perspective. The dog alerts will always be ambiguous without forensic corroboration. He does say as Grimes himself says:

If the dogs indicated in the apartment then it is possible that there was something that they detected that forensic examination failed to find. It might be that the McCanns are guilty. There is enough in my posts to show that this is entirely possible. If you want me to say that the dog's indication proves beyond all doubt that they are guilty then I cannot. There is the slight chance that cross-contamination or other depositions caused one or more of the indications. As previously and repeatedly been said - forensic proves the case not the dogs.

That makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2015, 04:31:25 PM
Interesting posts here on this unknown forum to me:

http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/t1945-poacher-s-view-on-grime-and-the-dogs (http://justice4mccannfam.5forum.biz/t1945-poacher-s-view-on-grime-and-the-dogs)

The guy seems to work in the dog handling industry and claims to know Martin Grimes and offers some opinion on the alerts and Grimes himself.

Thanks for finding that, Lordpookles.  I had entirely forgotten about it, although I did read it at the time.

So, it is highly unlikely that Eddie was taken to America before Praia da Luz, or trained on Human Cadaver as Martin Grime wasn't there for long enough.

And highly unlikely that Martin Grime was employed by South Yorkshire Police when he went to Praia da Luz.

I shall make no comment about Martin Grime himself, other than to say that Poacher's opinion mirrors mine.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 04:59:10 PM
Thanks for finding that, Lordpookles.  I had entirely forgotten about it, although I did read it at the time.

So, it is highly unlikely that Eddie was taken to America before Praia da Luz, or trained on Human Cadaver as Martin Grime wasn't there for long enough.

And highly unlikely that Martin Grime was employed by South Yorkshire Police when he went to Praia da Luz.

I shall make no comment about Martin Grime himself, other than to say that Poacher's opinion mirrors mine.

The fact that it is accepted that Maddie may still be alive says all we need to know about the alerts
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Carana on August 12, 2015, 04:59:44 PM
I don't know what to make of Poacher. I'm sceptical as this person seems to have had a personal gripe against either Grime or the other agency employing dogs.

I did come across a different HRD handler (US?) who seemed much more objective to me... I've posted the link here before, and will add it again if and when I find it.

ETA:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg255256#msg255256
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2015, 05:06:11 PM

Whoever Poacher is, it was well written and well explained.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 12, 2015, 05:09:52 PM
I don't know what to make of Poacher. I'm sceptical as this person seems to have had a personal gripe against either Grime or the other agency employing dogs.

I did come across a different HRD handler (US?) who seemed much more objective to me... I've posted the link here before, and will add it again if and when I find it.

ETA:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg255256#msg255256

brit1981
06-21-2012, 12:34 PM
The cadaver dog did not alert to these.
Also here are a few facts
1) Martin Grimes says the alerts mean nothing on their own
2) Grimes and his cadaver dog no longer have a license to practice in the UK as the license was not renewed.
3) British police will no longer work with grimes and his dogs
4) Eddie alerted in an old jersey care home, specifically to a piece of organic material thought to be bone. Experts examined the material eddie alerted to and found it to be coconut shell.
5) when asked about the mistakes grimes said mistakes happen, people are only human. I am not certain if the "only human" was a turn of phrase and he was refering to the dog making a mistake, or if he meant a human had made a mistake in interpreting the dogs signals
6) Grimes also said that the scent can appear through transferance. Tens of people including criminal investigators had been in the flat.
7) Reports have stated that dogs in the UK are not trained well enough for their alerts to be meaningful. They can be helpful when looking for a body, but in no way can be used to identify where there are bodies. this was shown by the care home fiasco when eddie alerted, and the alert turned out to be false and he had alerted to coconut shell.


Sound ....
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 05:10:52 PM
The fact that it is accepted that Maddie may still be alive says all we need to know about the alerts

No it doesn't.

Since the alerts also can signify a death.

Down to probability.

and Mr. Mccann in his interview said 'dogs are incredibly unreliable'.

 &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 05:11:50 PM
brit1981
06-21-2012, 12:34 PM
The cadaver dog did not alert to these.
Also here are a few facts
1) Martin Grimes says the alerts mean nothing on their own
2) Grimes and his cadaver dog no longer have a license to practice in the UK as the license was not renewed.
3) British police will no longer work with grimes and his dogs
4) Eddie alerted in an old jersey care home, specifically to a piece of organic material thought to be bone. Experts examined the material eddie alerted to and found it to be coconut shell.
5) when asked about the mistakes grimes said mistakes happen, people are only human. I am not certain if the "only human" was a turn of phrase and he was refering to the dog making a mistake, or if he meant a human had made a mistake in interpreting the dogs signals
6) Grimes also said that the scent can appear through transferance. Tens of people including criminal investigators had been in the flat.
7) Reports have stated that dogs in the UK are not trained well enough for their alerts to be meaningful. They can be helpful when looking for a body, but in no way can be used to identify where there are bodies. this was shown by the care home fiasco when eddie alerted, and the alert turned out to be false and he had alerted to coconut shell.


Sound ....

Don't forget secondary transfer ferryman.

Are you sent by the way child deaths and cover up at that care home ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 12, 2015, 05:14:56 PM
No it doesn't.

Since the alerts also can signify a death.

Down to probability.

and Mr. Mccann in his interview said 'dogs are incredibly unreliable'.

 &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

The fact that it accepted Maddie may still be alive prove the alerts are unreliable in proving the previous presence of a cadaver


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 05:16:47 PM
The fact that it accepted Maddie may still be alive prove the alerts are unreliable in proving the previous presence of a cadaver

So where is she ?

Personally I don't believe in fairy stories.

So let's for a change have realism in your answers.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2015, 05:19:28 PM
The fact that it is accepted that Maddie may still be alive says all we need to know about the alerts

The sad thing is that our scepticism about Dog Alerts is so badly misunderstood.  If scepticism is even the word.
Some of us are really only interested in what it all amounts to.  Which is actually nothing much at all.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2015, 05:22:54 PM
I don't know what to make of Poacher. I'm sceptical as this person seems to have had a personal gripe against either Grime or the other agency employing dogs.

I did come across a different HRD handler (US?) who seemed much more objective to me... I've posted the link here before, and will add it again if and when I find it.

ETA:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg255256#msg255256

An American dog handler in The Casey Anthony Case said more or less the same thing.  Cadaver Dogs will alert to other bits and pieces in the absence of a body.

Sorry, I don't have a link to the video, but I expect that someone more able than I could find it.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 05:23:43 PM
The sad thing is that our scepticism about Dog Alerts is so badly misunderstood.  If scepticism is even the word.
Some of us are really only interested in what it all amounts to.  Which is actually nothing much at all.

Now that could all change Eleanor if  a body is found.

Likewise if dogs are of no use, why were they taken to Portugal last year by the SY team, including spaniels of course.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 12, 2015, 05:27:42 PM
There are actually 3 FOI answers (two in my possession) that, between them confirm Eddie was never sent to America to be trained on human remains.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2015, 05:28:17 PM
Now that could all change Eleanor if  a body is found.

Likewise if dogs are of no use, why were they taken to Portugal last year by the SY team, including spaniels of course.

The Dogs are a tool, Stephen.  They are not definitive in their own right.

If a body is found?  What will that tell us?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 05:31:21 PM
The Dogs are a tool, Stephen.  They are not definitive in their own right.

If a body is found?  What will that tell us?

The forensic examination could reveal the dogs were correct in indicating the possible presence  of a  body.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2015, 05:31:38 PM
There are actually 3 FOI answers (two in my possession) that, between them confirm Eddie was never sent to America to be trained on human remains.

I believe this to be true.  But it wouldn't make a lot of difference if he had been.  He didn't find a body.  And even his handler couldn't say what he was reacting to.

Grandstanding, pure and simple.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2015, 05:32:53 PM
The forensic examination could reveal the dogs were correct in indicating the possible presence  of a  body.

Could and Possible.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 05:34:24 PM
Could and Possible.

However, I doubt very much this case will ever be solved.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2015, 05:37:01 PM
However, I doubt very much this case will ever be solved.

I might agree with you on that.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 05:38:44 PM
I might agree with you on that.

Are  we setting a precedent ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 12, 2015, 05:57:35 PM
Are  we setting a precedent ?

I don't know, Stephen.  I always prefer to agree with everyone, if I possibly can.  But too many missing children have been found many years later when they obviously left no trace.  And were presumed dead.

I think I'll just go on hoping.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 12, 2015, 07:01:32 PM
There are actually 3 FOI answers (two in my possession) that, between them confirm Eddie was never sent to America to be trained on human remains.

Ask him.

Rex Stockham
FBI Canine Program Manager at FBI

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/rex-stockham/39/6a8/aa0

Forensic Canine Program Manager
FBI
May 2005 – Present (10 years 4 months)Fredericksburg, VA
Developed and implemented the FBI's Human Scent Evidence Team (HSET) and Victim Recovery Team (VRT) programs. Provide canine-related search assistance and subject matter expert testimony. Train and certify Forensic Canine Program canines.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 12, 2015, 07:26:19 PM
Ask him.

Rex Stockham
FBI Canine Program Manager at FBI

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/rex-stockham/39/6a8/aa0

Forensic Canine Program Manager
FBI
May 2005 – Present (10 years 4 months)Fredericksburg, VA
Developed and implemented the FBI's Human Scent Evidence Team (HSET) and Victim Recovery Team (VRT) programs. Provide canine-related search assistance and subject matter expert testimony. Train and certify Forensic Canine Program canines.

Rex Stolkham did not produce the FOI answers.

South Yorkshire Police did (Grime's former employer)
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 07:37:00 PM
Is this from you ferryman ?

From Amazon..........................

''There are actually 3 FOI answers (two in my possession) that, between them confirm Eddie was never sent to America to be trained on human remains.''

' This is a total falsehood. In fact, the FOI responses confirm that Martin Grime did indeed take the dog to America and that there is a record of this in his training record with South Yorkshire police.

In the record it makes mention of a report to follow. The report referred to is not in the file.

ferryman has used the absence of the report to claim something is amiss, and has made this libelous claim about Mr Grime on numerous occasions.

It is of course complete rubbish'
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 12, 2015, 07:51:30 PM
Rollocks.

The dogs alerted.

Forensic results were inconclusive.
They weren't even pointers .. cos Eddie alerts to living scents as well as cadavar odour.

Not even pointers.  Soz stephen.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 07:55:02 PM
They weren't even pointers .. cos Eddie alerts to living scents as well as cadavar odour.

Not even pointers.  Soz stephen.

Wrong sadie.

Learn some science.

Soz.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 12, 2015, 07:55:31 PM
Is this from you ferryman ?

From Amazon..........................

''There are actually 3 FOI answers (two in my possession) that, between them confirm Eddie was never sent to America to be trained on human remains.''

' This is a total falsehood. In fact, the FOI responses confirm that Martin Grime did indeed take the dog to America and that there is a record of this in his training record with South Yorkshire police.

In the record it makes mention of a report to follow. The report referred to is not in the file.

ferryman has used the absence of the report to claim something is amiss, and has made this libelous claim about Mr Grime on numerous occasions.

It is of course complete rubbish'

Keep digging ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: G-Unit on August 12, 2015, 07:57:13 PM
They weren't even pointers .. cos Eddie alerts to living scents as well as cadavar odour.

Not even pointers.  Soz stephen.

Is there evidence for that statement please?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:00:40 PM
Keep digging ...

I don't need to. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 12, 2015, 08:02:43 PM
I don't need to. 8)-)))

That's good.

You're already buried, then ...
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 12, 2015, 08:03:20 PM
Is there evidence for that statement please?

Unless we have been misinformed, Dr Gerry McCann is alive and kicking ... the cellular material Eddie alerted to in the Renault was his; that provides evidence that Eddie alerts to living scent.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 12, 2015, 08:05:34 PM
I don't need to. 8)-)))

You're already buried then?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:07:33 PM
You're already buried then?

Silly boy.

Are you a fan of Stephen Birch  ? 8)--))
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 12, 2015, 08:17:40 PM
Dear [name deleted],

With regard to your request in relation to:

"1. Can you confirm that the cadaver dog "Eddie", formerly a police dog under
dog handler and dog instructor Martin Grime, now retired from your force, was
sent to America to be trained on human cadavers and be upgraded to "enhanced"
victim recovery dog?

2. Can you confirm that South Yorkshire Police uses, or has used, an American
device for trapping scents, a "Scent Transfer Unit" or "STU100" in the
training of its cadaver dogs?"

RESPONSE

1. South Yorkshire Police holds information which would tend to confirm this part of your request. This information is contained within the anual Personal Development Review of retired PC GRIME for the year 2005/2006 and states at various points,

"(PC GRIMES) has deployed police dog 'Eddie' to train on human remains in the US. This training has been valuable as it is not possible to utilise human remains in the UK. A full report from the F.B.I. to document his training and operational deployments whilst in America remains pending"

"Deployments have been on a national scale and a recent visit to the F.B.I. in America has created some income generation potential in terms of training."

"Complete sponsored visit to FBI to educate on C.S.I. Dog capabilities - Achieved"

2. From enquiries I have made it would appear that South Yorkshire Police have not deployed or used a device known as a 'Scent Transfer Unit' or 'STU100' within Force either operationally or for evaluation. However the Force does hold information that would indicate that Mr GRIME, whilst serving with this Force IN 2006, did utilise such a device whilst engageD in another Force area. A section of a statement apparently made but not signed by Mr GRIME reads: -

" I developed the training of the E.V.R.D. to include the screening of scent pads taken from motor vehicles by a ST 100 Scent Tranference Unit.

The unit is designed in a two main-part design. The main body is a battery operated electrical device that draws air in at to the front and exhausts through the rear. Ther is no 're-circulation' of air within the unit. The second main part is a 'grilled' hood that fits to the main body. A sterile gauze pad is fitted into the hood. When operated the ST 100 draws air through the hood and the sterile gauze pad and exhausts through ports to the rear. 'Scent' is trapped in the gauze, which may then be stored for use within scent discrimination exercises.

The ST 100 unit is cleaned following use in such a manner that no residual scent is apparent. This is checked by control measures where the dog is allowed to search a given area where the S100 is secreted. Any response by the dog would suggest contamination. Tests have shown that the decontamination procedures are effective in this case with the dog NOT alerting to the device when completed.

Use of the ST100 is recommended when subject vehicles, property, clothing, premises are to be forensically protected from contamination by the dog, and for covert deployment. At all other times best practice would be for the dog to be given direct access.

Operational use of the STU 100 is in a developmental stage"

If you are unhappy with the way your request for information has been handled, you can request a review by following the advice contained in the separate notice attached to this correspondence:

If you remain dissatisfied with the handling of your request or complaint, you have a right to appeal to the Information Commissioner at:
The Information Commissioner's Office,
Wycliffe House,
Water Lane,
Wilmslow,
Cheshire, SK9 5AF.
Telephone: 08456 306060 or 01625 545745
Website: www.ico.gov.uk
There is no charge for making an appeal.

Yours sincerely

___________________________

The follow-up quetion:

__________________________-

Freedom of Information Request - Reference No:20110231

REQUEST

[Following a response to request 20110186]

Can I ask, did that FBI report described as 'pending' turn up?

RESPONSE

SYP did not receive a report, therefore there is `no information held'.


The third FOI answer (which I believe Carana has) asked, straightforwardly, what training or preparation Eddie had received to equip him for his duties as a police dog.

The answer was that Eddie's training was in conformance with standard ACPO guidelines.

Then a link was given to the ACPO dog-training manual.

As you would expect, the ACPO dog-training manual says nothing about sending dogs to America.  It explains in detail how dog-training courses are set up in the UK using pig carcasses and pig scents.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 08:22:51 PM
He was a fantasist who discussed means of disposing of a body.

His image was captured on CCTV in the company of his victim.

He had been acquitted on a rape charge which was alleged to have occurred a short distance from where he battered his victim to death in his car with a spanner.

Traces of his victim were found in his flat where he had changed his mattress after enquiring how to remove blood from his old one.

He purchased caustic soda which he made into a solution in a drum and attempted to dissolve his victim's body in it.

He was familiar with the storage facilities on the farm where he had stored the drum and its contents having rented there before.

Forensic tests on the dirt trapped in the wheel treads of his vehicle showed matches for the soil from the farm where he dumped his victim's remains and from where he dumped her handbag.

That's all I can recall off the top of my head, I'm sure there will be more.


The example you have chosen to equate the value of police dog working bears absolutely no comparison or relation to what happened in Praia da Luz ... it is rather mean spirited of you to suggest such a thing.

He was questioned as a witness in a missing person case, a status that changed when sniffer dogs indicated that a body had been in Pacteau’s car. DNA samples taken from his apartment showed traces of Ms Buckley’s blood.
-----
His status changed from witness to suspect after a cadaver dog alerted. Just as happened in the Mccann case. So dogs can change the course of an investigation.

 A pertinent point on a dog thread.

That is the only point I was making, and not comparing the two cases in any other way and it is mean spirited of you to suggest anything else!
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 08:32:35 PM
Ferryman

- the FOI response confirms Mr Grime went to the USA to train his dog on human remains
- that SYP never recieved a specific report from the FBI as to methods used does not nullify this
- do you accept you are calling Mr Grime a liar? and that he has fabricated info on his CV?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 12, 2015, 08:33:53 PM
Ferryman

- the FOI response confirms Mr Grime went to the USA to train his dog on human remains
- that SYP never recieved a specific report from the FBI as to methods used does not nullify this
- do you accept you are calling Mr Grime a liar? and that he has fabricated info on his CV?

The answers say what they say.

They don't say what you insist.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 12, 2015, 08:34:09 PM
Is there evidence for that statement please?
Gunit

As you well know, I have presented this evidence at least 3 times in the past couple of months


Stop wasting time.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 08:37:38 PM
The answers say what they say.

They don't say what you insist.

I insisted on nothing. Are you going to answer my third point or not?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 12, 2015, 08:39:37 PM
Unless we have been misinformed, Dr Gerry McCann is alive and kicking ... the cellular material Eddie alerted to in the Renault was his; that provides evidence that Eddie alerts to living scent.

Thank you Brietta.

Practical proof that what i have repeated from the official report (at least three times) is true.

Eddie alerts to living scents



Gunit why do you keep asking the same question?  Is it three times that I have now answered it, or four?
Time wasting.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:44:20 PM
Thank you Brietta.

Practical proof that what i have repeated from the official report (at least three times) is true.

Eddie alerts to living scents



Gunit why do you keep asking the same question?  Is it three times that I have now answered it, or four?
Time wasting.

What other scents could have been present by secondary transfer, which were not 'living scents', which of course is a contradiction in terms ?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 08:47:07 PM
What other scents could have been present by secondary transfer, which were not 'living scents', which of course is a contradiction in terms ?

Bacon, pork sausages, or ham joints?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 08:50:34 PM
Question about http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
Their shortest-PMI scent pad they say they put on a subject who had passed away 70 minutes before.
They leave the pad in place for 20 minutes
So does that mean that pad was removed at 90 minutes?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 12, 2015, 08:52:43 PM
What other scents could have been present by secondary transfer, which were not 'living scents', which of course is a contradiction in terms ?

Living scents and pork products
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 08:53:38 PM
Living scents and pork products

You of course can prove this ??

and that these scents were present ??
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: sadie on August 12, 2015, 08:55:24 PM
You of course can prove this ??

and that these scents were present ??
I can prove it every bit as well as you can prove that the scent of death was there



As you must by now well know.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 08:58:40 PM
Question about http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
Their shortest-PMI scent pad they say they put on a subject who had passed away 70 minutes before.
They leave the pad in place for 20 minutes
So does that mean that pad was removed at 90 minutes?
Yes, at 90 minutes post mortem in that example
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 12, 2015, 09:00:30 PM
Question about http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
Their shortest-PMI scent pad they say they put on a subject who had passed away 70 minutes before.
They leave the pad in place for 20 minutes
So does that mean that pad was removed at 90 minutes?

That is how I read it...... 70mins post mortem and then pad for 20mins to contaminate it.

TRIALS BEGUN: January 1997
 NUMBER OF DOGS USED: Five different dogs
 POST-MORTEM INTERVAL RANGE: From 70 minutes to 3 days
 NUMBER OF TRIALS COMPLETED: As of July 1997, total of 52 trials completed
 PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 09:07:27 PM
Dear [name deleted],

With regard to your request in relation to:

"1. Can you confirm that the cadaver dog "Eddie", formerly a police dog under
dog handler and dog instructor Martin Grime, now retired from your force, was
sent to America to be trained on human cadavers and be upgraded to "enhanced"
victim recovery dog?

2. Can you confirm that South Yorkshire Police uses, or has used, an American
device for trapping scents, a "Scent Transfer Unit" or "STU100" in the
training of its cadaver dogs?"

RESPONSE

1. South Yorkshire Police holds information which would tend to confirm this part of your request. This information is contained within the anual Personal Development Review of retired PC GRIME for the year 2005/2006 and states at various points,

"(PC GRIMES) has deployed police dog 'Eddie' to train on human remains in the US. This training has been valuable as it is not possible to utilise human remains in the UK. A full report from the F.B.I. to document his training and operational deployments whilst in America remains pending"

"Deployments have been on a national scale and a recent visit to the F.B.I. in America has created some income generation potential in terms of training."

"Complete sponsored visit to FBI to educate on C.S.I. Dog capabilities - Achieved"

2. From enquiries I have made it would appear that South Yorkshire Police have not deployed or used a device known as a 'Scent Transfer Unit' or 'STU100' within Force either operationally or for evaluation. However the Force does hold information that would indicate that Mr GRIME, whilst serving with this Force IN 2006, did utilise such a device whilst engageD in another Force area. A section of a statement apparently made but not signed by Mr GRIME reads: -

" I developed the training of the E.V.R.D. to include the screening of scent pads taken from motor vehicles by a ST 100 Scent Tranference Unit.

The unit is designed in a two main-part design. The main body is a battery operated electrical device that draws air in at to the front and exhausts through the rear. Ther is no 're-circulation' of air within the unit. The second main part is a 'grilled' hood that fits to the main body. A sterile gauze pad is fitted into the hood. When operated the ST 100 draws air through the hood and the sterile gauze pad and exhausts through ports to the rear. 'Scent' is trapped in the gauze, which may then be stored for use within scent discrimination exercises.

The ST 100 unit is cleaned following use in such a manner that no residual scent is apparent. This is checked by control measures where the dog is allowed to search a given area where the S100 is secreted. Any response by the dog would suggest contamination. Tests have shown that the decontamination procedures are effective in this case with the dog NOT alerting to the device when completed.

Use of the ST100 is recommended when subject vehicles, property, clothing, premises are to be forensically protected from contamination by the dog, and for covert deployment. At all other times best practice would be for the dog to be given direct access.

Operational use of the STU 100 is in a developmental stage"

If you are unhappy with the way your request for information has been handled, you can request a review by following the advice contained in the separate notice attached to this correspondence:

If you remain dissatisfied with the handling of your request or complaint, you have a right to appeal to the Information Commissioner at:
The Information Commissioner's Office,
Wycliffe House,
Water Lane,
Wilmslow,
Cheshire, SK9 5AF.
Telephone: 08456 306060 or 01625 545745
Website: www.ico.gov.uk
There is no charge for making an appeal.

Yours sincerely

___________________________

The follow-up quetion:

__________________________-

Freedom of Information Request - Reference No:20110231

REQUEST

[Following a response to request 20110186]

Can I ask, did that FBI report described as 'pending' turn up?

RESPONSE

SYP did not receive a report, therefore there is `no information held'.


The third FOI answer (which I believe Carana has) asked, straightforwardly, what training or preparation Eddie had received to equip him for his duties as a police dog.

The answer was that Eddie's training was in conformance with standard ACPO guidelines.

Then a link was given to the ACPO dog-training manual.

As you would expect, the ACPO dog-training manual says nothing about sending dogs to America.  It explains in detail how dog-training courses are set up in the UK using pig carcasses and pig scents.




---------------------------------------------------------

From Amazon............

' On 4th May this year, DCI wrote a post on the same site. This is from that post

'' Grime claims that Eddie has been trained on such a farm in the States. An FOI answer to a question I have submitted cited parts of a Personal Development review for the Year 2005-6 when it was stated that Eddie (then aged 5 or 6, and close to retirement) had been to the States for that training. The cited justification was, not that it would improve Eddie's performance, but that it would "generate some income potential".

Until his last day of service, the daily cost of hiring Eddie was just £10. And no documention confirming this apparent trip was ever received by SYP.''

The last sentence is untrue. The FOI response merely stated that the report was not in the file. There was no statement that it was never received, nor was there any request to locate it.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6271.270

Of course, any idiot who thinks an officer can just swan off to the other side of the Atlantic without having the request signed off by a senior officer, needs locking up.

So contrary to the claims of Ferryman and DCI, they are in possession of confirmation that Mr Grime DID take the dog for training in the states '
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 09:09:30 PM
I can prove it every bit as well as you can prove that the scent of death was there



As you must by now well know.

Well prove it. 8(>((
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 09:19:13 PM
Living scents and pork products

What are the probabilities that the only apartment (from where a missing child went missing) in amongst seven, contained  any one or all of the myriad of "living scents" (bypassing the sausages for now) to which the dogs alerted?

Pretty unlucky don't you think?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 12, 2015, 09:24:12 PM
Living scents and pork products

There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however
see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat
foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 12, 2015, 09:33:16 PM
Rex Stolkham did not produce the FOI answers.

South Yorkshire Police did (Grime's former employer)

Go to the source about Eddie working for the FBI and his results at their body farm using human cadavers. Theresa Parker case - Eddie was shown in court detecting cadaver scent. Her remains were later found.

We also saw video played in the courtroom to demonstrate how another dog, Eddie, found a sample pair of pants hidden in the Walker County Jail that was perfumed with a cadaver scent. Eddie is an English Springer Spaniel belonging to Martin Grime, a world-renown forensic K-9 expert based in the United Kingdom.

Grime testified he was paid $450 a day, plus travel and living expenses, by the FBI to search some areas in Walker County in connection with Teresa Parker's disappearance.

During a visit to Parker's home back in September 2007 Grime said he and Eddie sniffed around their garage.

"He immediately gave a positive bark response within the garage between a truck parked to the left of the entrance and a boat parked to the right," Grime said.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 09:33:33 PM
.........and a tad bit more from Amazon.

'  ''The third FOI answer (which I believe Carana has) asked, straightforwardly, what training or preparation Eddie had received to equip him for his duties as a police dog.

The answer was that Eddie's training was in conformance with standard ACPO guidelines.

Then a link was given to the ACPO dog-training manual.

As you would expect, the ACPO dog-training manual says nothing about sending dogs to America. It explains in detail how dog-training courses are set up in the UK using pig carcasses and pig scents.''

Trying to claim that this means the dog was not taken to America is like me saying I have taken an advanced driving course, you asking the DVLA if I have passed my test, and them saying ''yes''. The fact that I have taken and passed my test does not mean I have not also taken some additional training.

That FOI request does not mention training in America.
The one that does received an answer in the positive.

So yes, he did take the dog to America for training. To claim otherwise is just a bloody lie  '
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 12, 2015, 09:36:41 PM
He was questioned as a witness in a missing person case, a status that changed when sniffer dogs indicated that a body had been in Pacteau’s car. DNA samples taken from his apartment showed traces of Ms Buckley’s blood.
-----
His status changed from witness to suspect after a cadaver dog alerted. Just as happened in the Mccann case. So dogs can change the course of an investigation.

 A pertinent point on a dog thread.

That is the only point I was making, and not comparing the two cases in any other way and it is mean spirited of you to suggest anything else!


The point you are making is a spurious one.

The direction of the investigation was firmly fixed on him as the last person to have had any contact with the missing person.

The dog alert in the vehicle was corroborated by the blood found in the car.

On the strength of the evidence found including the victim's remains the perpetrator was brought to trial.

So it most definitely is not  "Just as happened in the Mccann case."

 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 12, 2015, 09:42:08 PM
....and more for ferryman.

' The relevant part of the FOI answer is as follows

''"(PC GRIMES) has deployed police dog 'Eddie' to train on human remains in the US. This training has been valuable as it is not possible to utilise human remains in the UK. A full report from the F.B.I. to document his training and operational deployments whilst in America remains pending"

"Deployments have been on a national scale and a recent visit to the F.B.I. in America has created some income generation potential in terms of training."

"Complete sponsored visit to FBI to educate on C.S.I. Dog capabilities - Achieved"

Earlier, ferryman claimed this:

''There are actually 3 FOI answers (two in my possession) that, between them confirm Eddie was never sent to America to be trained on human remains.'' '


Mmmm.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 09:44:57 PM
@Anna Thanks
@Mercury Thanks.
The scent pads were placed in direct contact with skin of abdomen.
So the transfer to the pad is actually instant IMO.
The pad started at 70 minutes was in skin contact until 90 minutes. No dogs alerted to that.
And the pad started at 85 minutes was in skin contact until 105 minutes. One of the 5 dogs alerted to that.
So 90 minutes (1 hour 30 minutes) is not enough IMO.
This means the minimum PMI interval required is 105 minutes (1 hour 45 minutes) IMO
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 09:45:45 PM

The point you are making is a spurious one.

The direction of the investigation was firmly fixed on him as the last person to have had any contact with the missing person.

The dog alert in the vehicle was corroborated by the blood found in the car.

On the strength of the evidence found including the victim's remains the perpetrator was brought to trial.

So it most definitely is not  "Just as happened in the Mccann case."

Do continue to make a meal out of nothing except a comment about how cadaver dogs can change the course of an investigation if it pleases you

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 09:52:18 PM
@Anna Thanks
@Mercury Thanks.
The scent pads were placed in direct contact with skin of abdomen.
So the transfer to the pad is actually instant IMO.
The pad started at 70 minutes was in skin contact until 90 minutes. No dogs alerted to that.
And the pad started at 85 minutes was in skin contact until 105 minutes. One of the 5 dogs alerted to that.
IMO this means the minimum PMI interval required is 105 minutes.
That's 1 hour 45 minutes.

Well,no, from the site:

The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes.

That is 85 minutes
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 12, 2015, 09:55:55 PM
Well,no, from the site:

The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes.

That is 85 minutes

I think that was before the pads were put in place to absorb the scent, Mercury
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 09:58:37 PM
I think that was before the pads were put in place to absorb the scent, Mercury

Eh?

What does  the "correct response to " refer to then if not the pads?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 10:00:16 PM
Well,no, from the site:

The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes.

That is 85 minutes
Was the "85 minutes" pad started at 45 minutes and removed at 85 minutes?
Or started at 85 minutes and removed at 105 minutes?
That is the question.

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 10:06:09 PM
Was the "85 minutes" pad started at 45 minutes and removed at 85 minutes?
Or started at 85 minutes and removed at 105 minutes?
That is the question.

I think the clue is in the phrase "correct response" (by the dogs)
A response comes after the scent pad is utilised and presented to the dogs
Thats my understanding anyway
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 12, 2015, 10:08:44 PM
Eh?

What does  the "correct response to " refer to then if not the pads?

Is referring to the dogs, I believe.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 10:16:46 PM
Is referring to the dogs, I believe.
Yes Anna
They say the shortest PMI is 1 hour 25 minutes (ie time from death) that they recieved a correct response to, so, IMO, that means a dog or more than one alerted to a pad that was placed on or near the body 85 mins from death

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 10:19:19 PM
Was the "85 minutes" pad started at 45 minutes and removed at 85 minutes?
Or started at 85 minutes and removed at 105 minutes?
That is the question.
No mention of pads in the section of the report, just the words, the dog alerted correctly after 85 mins (PMI) speaks for itself

If Im reading it all wrong, happy to be corrected
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 10:31:49 PM
Even an 85 minutes minimum rubbishes the theory stated in that disputed book and film doesn't it?
Because 9.10 to 10.00 is only 50 minutes.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 12, 2015, 10:41:08 PM
Even an 85 minutes minimum rubbishes the theory stated in that disputed book and film doesn't it?
Because 9.10 to 10.00 is only 50 minutes.
Yes
But you are being too pedantic as Amaral was hypothesising
And you can never take uncorroborated witness statements (especially persons who were the last to see a missing person as gospel
From what I have read of your posts you thnk everyne is telling the truth, good luck with that

PS btw do you agree a dog akerted at 85 mins
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 10:56:17 PM
Yes
But you are being too pedantic
And you can never take uncorroborated witness statements (especially persons who were the last to see a missing person as gospel
From what I have read of your posts you thnk everyne is telling the truth, good luck with that
The main theory in that book and film IMO seems to claim something happened at about 9.10pm, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 12, 2015, 11:31:55 PM
... PS btw do you agree a dog akerted at 85 mins
IMO it's debatable whether that pad it was on the skin from 45 mins PM until 85 mins PM, or on the skin from 85 mins PM until 105 mins PM.

Later, when it was dog tested, 1 of the 5 dogs alerted to it.

If 85 mins (or 105 mins) is correct, the "chat/sofa-smithsighting" hypothesis in that book-film doesn't work IMO
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Anna on August 12, 2015, 11:51:27 PM
IMO it's debatable whether that pad it was on the skin from 45 mins PM until 85 mins PM, or on the skin from 85 mins PM until 105 mins PM.

Later, when it was dog tested, 1 of the 5 dogs alerted to it.

If 85 mins (or 105 mins) is correct, the "chat/sofa-smithsighting" hypothesis in that book-film doesn't work IMO

No it would not even work at 8.30pm, when they went for dinner.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 01:30:21 AM
IMO it's debatable whether that pad it was on the skin from 45 mins PM until 85 mins PM, or on the skin from 85 mins PM until 105 mins PM.

Later, when it was dog tested, 1 of the 5 dogs alerted to it.

If 85 mins (or 105 mins) is correct, the "chat/sofa-smithsighting" hypothesis in that book-film doesn't work IMO

did you not read my earlier reply
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 13, 2015, 01:34:28 AM
No it would not even work at 8.30pm, when they went for dinner.
The only way to make the "sofa+smithsighting" hypothesis fit would be to move chat to earlier, and smithsighting to later, and it is difficult to stretch that combination to get the 85 (or more) minutes of the dog study.

 

Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 01:53:08 AM
The only way to make the "sofa+smithsighting" hypothesis fit would be to move chat to earlier, and smithsighting to later, and it is difficult to stretch that combination to get the 85 (or more) minutes of the dog study.

 
youare assuming the mccanns told the truth
that could bewhere u might  be going wrong
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 02:00:51 AM
Still waiting ferryman for an answerr,are you asserting Grime is a liar?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: pegasus on August 13, 2015, 02:34:56 AM
youare assuming the mccanns told the truth
that could bewhere u might  be going wrong
To test Amaral's "sofa + irish sighting" hypothesis against dog studies, all that's needed is to estimate the time of the chat outside, and the time of the irish sighting, both of which IMO we know independently did happen, because there is an independent witness for the first and several for the second. 
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 02:49:48 AM
To test Amaral's "sofa + irish sighting" hypothesis against dog studies, all that's needed is to estimate the time of the chat outside, and the time of the irish sighting, both of which IMO we know independently did happen, because there is an independent witness for the first and several for the second.

As i said youre assuming mccanns were truthful
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 13, 2015, 02:54:13 AM
As i said youre assuming mccanns were truthful

Are you asserting that The McCanns are liars?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 03:00:13 AM
Are you asserting that The McCanns are liars?

not assertng anything but they might be! if thats ok with you, feel free to delete delete thought lol
long as you dont insist eddie barked to sausages , meh, tara, off now
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Eleanor on August 13, 2015, 03:14:20 AM
not assertng anything but they might be! if thats ok with you, feel free to delete delete thought lol
long as you dont insist eddie barked to sausages , meh, tara, off now

Then please don't suggest that other posters are.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: jassi on August 13, 2015, 08:48:29 AM
Are you asserting that The McCanns are liars?

One can't really be sure, can one?
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:48:49 AM
Yes
But you are being too pedantic as Amaral was hypothesising
And you can never take uncorroborated witness statements (especially persons who were the last to see a missing person as gospel
From what I have read of your posts you thnk everyne is telling the truth, good luck with that

PS btw do you agree a dog akerted at 85 mins

amaral was not hypothesising...that's a mistake many make....he claimed to be able to prove maddie died in the apartment
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 08:52:14 AM
amaral was not hypothesising...that's a mistake many make....he claimed to be able to prove maddie died in the apartment

Accidental death has not been disproved.

We know Redwood said, she may not have left the apartment alive.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:59:21 AM
One can't really be sure, can one?

The police will have made a judgement on this and it appears both the Portuguese and SY accept the McCanns are telling the truth. Combine that with all the available evidence. Combine that with the fact that there is no realistic scenario for death in the apartment and the parents are ruled out. That looks exactly what has happened.
No one has come up with  a realistic scenario for death in the apartment in the time frame. Amaral's falling off the sofa is completely ridiculous
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 09:03:21 AM
The police will have made a judgement on this and it appears both the Portuguese and SY accept the McCanns are telling the truth. Combine that with all the available evidence. Combine that with the fact that there is no realistic scenario for death in the apartment and the parents are ruled out. That looks exactly what has happened.
No one has come up with  a realistic scenario for death in the apartment in the time frame. Amaral's falling off the sofa is completely ridiculous

Ah mccann mantra time.

There is no evidence that SY have ever questioned as witnesses or otherwise, either the mccanns or the rest of the group.

As to accidental death, quite possible.

Children do have fatal accidents, which can lead to death directly, or after a delay.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 09:24:56 AM
Still waiting ferryman for an answerr,are you asserting Grime is a liar?

Well, let's see.

According to Amaral, Eddie was involved in operational deployment and over 200 cases.  An FOI answer by SYP confirms the true number to be operational deployment and 37 cases.

We can't really judge Grime's claim to be in post with SYP when he wrote his profile, because it is undated.

But certainly he was freelance when he went to PdL.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 09:35:36 AM
Well, let's see.

According to Amaral, Eddie was involved in operational deployment and over 200 cases.  An FOI answer by SYP confirms the true number to be operational deployment and 37 cases.

We can't really judge Grime's claim to be in post with SYP when he wrote his profile, because it is undated.

But certainly he was freelance when he went to PdL.
3.10.11 http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 13, 2015, 09:38:06 AM
One can't really be sure, can one?
One can be sure the police don't think so otherwise they would be suspects. They are not suspects, as I'm sure you agree.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 09:47:59 AM
The fact that SY declared the McCanns not suspects is evidence that they believe them
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 09:52:14 AM
The fact that SY declared the McCanns not suspects is evidence that they believe them

Very clever policing, since they have never stated they stated they have interviewed any of the group or the mccanns themselves.

i.e. It was never an open investigation.
Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: Benice on August 13, 2015, 09:53:20 AM
Ah mccann mantra time.

There is no evidence that SY have ever questioned as witnesses or otherwise, either the mccanns or the rest of the group.

As to accidental death, quite possible.

Children do have fatal accidents, which can lead to death directly, or after a delay.

What kind of evidence would you expect to see?  Do tell.


Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 09:57:26 AM
    3.10.11
    • We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
      Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
      Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
      Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
      serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
      July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
      accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
      ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
      days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
    http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

    Ah!

    That is also the report that confirms, much more convincingly than tabloid newspapers, that Eddie alerted to a coconut .[/list]
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 10:01:09 AM
    The fact that SY declared the McCanns not suspects is evidence that they believe them

    I am puzzled by the notion put about that Scotland Yard launched the reopening of Madeleine McCann's case without first interviewing the relevant people within their jurisdiction at the review stage and going over their recollections of May 2007.

    Including British holidaymakers who were there; those who gave a statement at the time and those who did not.

    Police professionals who were in Praia da Luz on duty including the liaison officers who spent time with the McCann family and who had first hand professional experience of the investigation at its most critical phase; as well as Martin Grime and Mark Harrison.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 10:07:12 AM
    What kind of evidence would you expect to see?  Do tell.

    How about for a start SY, openly saying they had questioned all of them on the events of May the 3 rd and after ???
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 10:08:29 AM
    Ah!

    That is also the report that confirms, much more convincingly than tabloid newspapers, that Eddie alerted to a coconut .[/list]

    and secondary transfer.

    Now, did deaths occur at the childrens home ?
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Benice on August 13, 2015, 10:18:20 AM
    How about for a start SY, openly saying they had questioned all of them on the events of May the 3 rd and after ???

    Maybe SY thought that would be insulting the intelligence of any reasonable member of the GBP - who would automatically expect SY to carry out the premier requirement of any police force in these cases.  I.E. First of all investigate the family and friends of the victim in order to rule them in or out of the enquiry.

    The alternative - i.e. SY just took their word for it that it wasn't them 'wot dunnit'  - and immediately publicly ruled them out of the enquiry - is just too daft for words IMO.

     
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 10:23:44 AM
    Maybe SY thought that would be insulting the intelligence of any reasonable member of the GBP - who would automatically expect SY to carry out the premier requirement of any police force in these cases.  I.E. First of all investigate the family and friends of the victim in order to rule them in or out of the enquiry.

    The alternative - i.e. SY just took their word for it that it wasn't them 'wot dunnit'  - and immediately publicly ruled them out of the enquiry - is just too daft for words IMO.


    They have never stated it.

    It wouldn't have taken much, would it ?

    As for '..too daft for words..'

    Well, that is one of your stock phrases.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 10:30:06 AM
    I am puzzled by the notion put about that Scotland Yard launched the reopening of Madeleine McCann's case without first interviewing the relevant people within their jurisdiction at the review stage and going over their recollections of May 2007.

    Including British holidaymakers who were there; those who gave a statement at the time and those who did not.

    Police professionals who were in Praia da Luz on duty including the liaison officers who spent time with the McCann family and who had first hand professional experience of the investigation at its most critical phase; as well as Martin Grime and Mark Harrison.

    "The investigative review is intended to collate, record and analyse what has gone before."

    Operation Grange - Remit of Investigation

    There is no evidence the McCanns have been questioned when they are not suspects.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:40:46 AM
    "The investigative review is intended to collate, record and analyse what has gone before."

    Operation Grange - Remit of Investigation

    There is no evidence the McCanns have been questioned when they are not suspects.

    again that is a celestial teapot argument
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 10:43:17 AM
    again that is a celestial teapot argument

    Same old........ 8(*(
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Benice on August 13, 2015, 10:46:46 AM

    They have never stated it.

    It wouldn't have taken much, would it ?

    As for '..too daft for words..'

    Well, that is one of your stock phrases.

    Well how would you describe the idea that SY have never interviewed the McCann or their friends - but just took their word for it -  that they were all innocent?   That is what you are claiming isn't it?    If not what are you claiming?

    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 10:51:36 AM
    Ah!

    That is also the report that confirms, much more convincingly than tabloid newspapers, that Eddie alerted to a coconut .[/list]

    It seems Eddie did not sniff out the coconut shell through layers of concrete ... and if the forensic anthropologist was of the opinion it was part of a skull ... I'm sure everyone else on site would think so too.

    Eddie alerted, exactly as he had done in the corner of the master bedroom in apartment 5A.



    23 February 2008 0910hrs – Item found by anthropologist       X and identified on scene as being part of a child’s skull. This item is then exhibited as JAR/6.

    0930hrs – Exhibit JAR/6 is presented to the Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog which gave an indication suggestive of human remains.
     http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf


    Further reading of the report leaves one in no doubt that the 'remains' of the skull were subject to exhaustive scientific testing which categorically concluded it was not bone.

    What a pity the situation in Praia da Luz had not been subject to the same scrutiny ... it could have saved a lot of future expense, time and reputations.

    That which Eddie indicated was suggestive of human remains in Jersey was a coconut shell.  That which Eddie indicated was suggestive of human remains in apartment 5A was ... ???   Yet an industry has been built on it. 
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 10:52:52 AM
    Well how would you describe the idea that SY have never interviewed the McCann or their friends - but just took their word for it -  that they were all innocent?   That is what you are claiming isn't it?    If not what are you claiming?

    It was supposed to be a open investigation.

    That means you investigate all logical possibilities.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Benice on August 13, 2015, 10:54:40 AM
    Still waiting ferryman for an answerr,are you asserting Grime is a liar?


    With the best will in the world Mercury - I cannot believe that M. Grime did not know the Renault was the McCanns car as he claimed  - as it was parked up covered in 'Madeleine posters'.     And IIRC some of which (if not all) were removed before Keela was put in the boot.  (from memory - so happy to be corrected if that last bit is wrong).


    Must go out now.


    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 10:55:55 AM
    It'll take me a while to find.

    But somewhere in that Operation Haven report Brietta posted is definitive  confirmation that Eddie reacted to a coconut.

    I will post when I find.

    Carana knows where it is. 

    She was the first one to highlight it ....
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Benice on August 13, 2015, 10:58:19 AM
    It was supposed to be a open investigation.

    That means you investigate all logical possibilities.

    Where is your proof that all logical possibilites were not investigated?

    What do you mean by 'an open investigation'.  You keep forgetting that SY stated they would not be giving a running commentary to the public on this case.   Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 10:59:18 AM
    "The investigative review is intended to collate, record and analyse what has gone before."

    Operation Grange - Remit of Investigation

    There is no evidence the McCanns have been questioned when they are not suspects.

                     There is no statement as to how crèche man was found and interviewed.

    I think it is infantile to suggest the case was reopened without prior consultation with those closest to the heart of it.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 10:59:43 AM
    It'll take me a while to find.

    But somewhere in that Operation Haven report Brietta posted is definitive  confirmation that Eddie reacted to a coconut.

    I will post when I find.

    Carana knows where it is. 

    She was the first one to highlight it ....

    Secondary transfer.

    Bodies present.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 11:00:16 AM
    again that is a celestial teapot argument

    SM: And is this a full time operation and what size team is working on it?

    Police: As I said we wouldn’t provide a running commentary but at the very beginning we said there were 30 officers who would be deployed, er, not continually but various tasks along with workload they have on other cases, er, but we have deployed 30 officers.

    SM: In a normal case in Britain it’s not unusual for the police to give an ongoing commentary as to how it’s progressing so what…

    Police: …I’ve only worked here 11 years but I would say it’s not common. We give information whilst it’s appropriate to produce but whilst there’s an investigation going on and where it’s potentially murder, we say very little, we say very little. You read a lot in the press but that doesn’t come from us. We deal with about 250 murders a year and all of them are dealt with in exactly the same way in terms of how we deal with the media.

    http://fakedabduction.com/2011/08/operation-grange-madeleine-mccann-a-potential-murder-enquiry/
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 11:01:15 AM
    Where is your proof that all logical possibilites were not investigated?

    What do you mean by 'an open investigation'.  You keep forgetting that SY stated they would not be giving a running commentary to the public on this case.   Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    Keep trying.

    As to SY, what have they found ?
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 11:09:20 AM
    It'll take me a while to find.

    But somewhere in that Operation Haven report Brietta posted is definitive  confirmation that Eddie reacted to a coconut.

    I will post when I find.

    Carana knows where it is. 

    She was the first one to highlight it ....

    It was also concluded that the dog was "unreliable" round about the same place, ferryman;  I didn't post that because I couldn't be bothered ploughing through the document again for a cite.
    But if you do come across it when looking for the coconut details can you post it up too.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 11:15:25 AM
    It was also concluded that the dog was "unreliable" round about the same place, ferryman;  I didn't post that because I couldn't be bothered ploughing through the document again for a cite.
    But if you do come across it when looking for the coconut details can you post it up too.

    Coconut  @)(++(* Martin Grime was correct.

    "People aren't right 100 per cent of the time. Otherwise they wouldn't be human."
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 11:19:36 AM
                     There is no statement as to how crèche man was found and interviewed.

    I think it is infantile to suggest the case was reopened without prior consultation with those closest to the heart of it.

    I think "infantile" sums it up
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 11:27:18 AM
    I think "infantile" sums it up


    ''infantile''

    Oh what a surprise.

    The word that could be used to describe an investigation going nowhere.

    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Eleanor on August 13, 2015, 11:32:00 AM

    AMARAL AND THE DOGS.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 11:58:34 AM
    It was also concluded that the dog was "unreliable" round about the same place, ferryman;  I didn't post that because I couldn't be bothered ploughing through the document again for a cite.
    But if you do come across it when looking for the coconut details can you post it up too.

    If I come across it, I will.

    Still can't find the bit about the coconut for the moment.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 12:06:23 PM
    AMARAL AND THE DOGS.

    so Grime says....
    It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to
     'a cadaver scent'  contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
     alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.


    and amaral says..
    From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann.

    Can there be any defence for amaral's outrageous statement...the answer has to be NO
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 12:18:01 PM
    so Grime says....
    It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to
     'a cadaver scent'  contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
     alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.


    and amaral says..
    From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann.

    Can there be any defence for amaral's outrageous statement...the answer has to be NO

    It is quite feasible the dogs alerted to a body.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 13, 2015, 12:22:06 PM
    so Grime says....
    It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to
     'a cadaver scent'  contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
     alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.


    and amaral says..
    From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann.

    Can there be any defence for amaral's outrageous statement...the answer has to be NO

    In fairness Amaral was a police man with limited experience of this kind of case.

    Grime and Harrison had made quite extravagant claims for the dogs abilities and accuracy and that they had never made a false positive (which we know to be economical with the truth).

    So Amaral can perhaps be forgiven for putting 1.876 and 2.134 together and making 3.99999999 recurring.

    It is not for no reason that dog evidence is not admissible. 

    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 12:47:07 PM
    It'll take me a while to find.

    But somewhere in that Operation Haven report Brietta posted is definitive  confirmation that Eddie reacted to a coconut.

    I will post when I find.

    Carana knows where it is. 

    She was the first one to highlight it ....

    Not sure what you're looking for.




    5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had 0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material, the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified.

    5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by
    X and X (British Museum faunal specialist and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU) concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost certainly wood.


    There were several reports and I'd have to find which one this extract came from.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 12:55:58 PM
    Not sure what you're looking for.




    5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had 0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material, the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified.

    5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by
    X and X (British Museum faunal specialist and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU) concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost certainly wood.


    There were several reports and I'd have to find which one this extract came from.

    You've found what I was looking for, which I think answers Pathfinder earlier ....
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 12:56:59 PM
    In fairness, from what I've read of numerous reports, there were more factors than just Grime and his dogs in the PdL and Jersey fiascos.

    This article sums up numerous points on the Jersey situation, which in some ways is quite similar to the PdL one in terms of various agents, assumptions and the media:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1086018/How-police-chief-Lenny-Harper-lost-plot-Jersey-childrens-home-murders.html#ixzz2nLiavJKv
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 01:04:05 PM
    Not sure what you're looking for.




    5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had 0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material, the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified.

    5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by
    X and X (British Museum faunal specialist and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU) concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost certainly wood.


    There were several reports and I'd have to find which one this extract came from.

    Page 255
    http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 01:07:38 PM
    In fairness, from what I've read of numerous reports, there were more factors than just Grime and his dogs in the PdL and Jersey fiascos.

    This article sums up numerous points on the Jersey situation, which in some ways is quite similar to the PdL one in terms of various agents, assumptions and the media:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1086018/How-police-chief-Lenny-Harper-lost-plot-Jersey-childrens-home-murders.html#ixzz2nLiavJKv

    You are always fair to everyone, something for which I 90% admire you.

    I'll leave the 10% reservation to one side for now ....
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 01:11:02 PM
    Coconut  @)(++(* Martin Grime was correct.

    "People aren't right 100 per cent of the time. Otherwise they wouldn't be human."

    Neither are dogs:

    5.6.19 The sample was logged into the ORAU system in the usual manner
    and, as in all cases, a sample of bone powder was drilled from the
    underside of the specimen using a tungsten carbide drill. The powder
    weighed 440 mg. The technician performing this procedure noted that
    the material did not behave as bone ordinarily would and did not have
    the texture that normal bone exhibits. The technician has a great deal
    of experience in the sampling of bone (almost 30 years). Because of
    this uncertainty, and as a precaution, a small amount of the sample
    was combusted to measure the % nitrogen remaining. % N is a good
    correlate for protein, which is dominated in bone by collagen, and the
    measurement of nitrogen offers a simple test concerning whether the
    sample is dateable or not. Low % N means that the material is
    essentially un-dateable using radiocarbon.
    5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had
    0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any
    quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller
    chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a
    result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably
    not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material,
    the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so
    the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified.
    5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by
    X and X (British Museum faunal specialist
    and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU)
    concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost
    certainly wood. It seemed surprising to us that the material could be
    so confidently identified by X , and particularly that it could
    Page 255 of 383




    Media Highly Confidential – Personal Information
    be determined to be an infant specimen. We informed X of
    our concerns shortly afterwards, by phone and e-mail. We stand by our
    original assessment. We suggest that the curvature of the material
    may have had something to do with the misidentification. We
    think it appears to be more like part of a large seed casing, or part of
    something like a small piece of coconut. Certainly, the density of the
    material is most unlike bone, it is too light. Our conclusion is that this
    sample is: a) not bone and b) not human. We are very surprised that
    the forensic archaeologist could be so confident and differ in X
    identification. We suggested at the time that a further opinion would be
    required, but this not considered by X . A further
    analysis of the bone structure under a suitable microscope would
    confirm the situation rapidly.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 01:16:46 PM
    Coconut  @)(++(* Martin Grime was correct.

    "People aren't right 100 per cent of the time. Otherwise they wouldn't be human."

    I'm not sure what the joke is. The "skull" fragment turned out to be wood-based.

    And picked up by FM.

    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 01:20:13 PM
    Page 255
    http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

    Many thanks, Anna!

    There's more detail on there.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 01:29:58 PM
    You are always fair to everyone, something for which I 90% admire you.

    I'll leave the 10% reservation to one side for now ....

    LOL

    Seriously, I really do find numerous factors in common in both of these high-profile investigations...
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 01:41:24 PM
    Not sure what you're looking for.




    5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had 0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material, the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified.

    5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by
    X and X (British Museum faunal specialist and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU) concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost certainly wood.


    There were several reports and I'd have to find which one this extract came from.

    Part of my 10% reservation is precisely highlighted above.

    You begin a post with not sure what you're looking for, then reproduce exactly what I'm looking for ...

     @)(++(* @)(++(*
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 13, 2015, 01:48:43 PM
    In fairness, from what I've read of numerous reports, there were more factors than just Grime and his dogs in the PdL and Jersey fiascos.

    This article sums up numerous points on the Jersey situation, which in some ways is quite similar to the PdL one in terms of various agents, assumptions and the media:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1086018/How-police-chief-Lenny-Harper-lost-plot-Jersey-childrens-home-murders.html#ixzz2nLiavJKv

    If you read the 383 page report posted by Brietta, Grime and his dogs don't take up much space. The thrust of the issue seems to be p**s poor media management by two officers.

    "Our main concern was the media strategy being used by Mr HARPER because although we knew nothing internally about the case, we were learning everything we knew from SKY news
    and other media sources".


    Y'all are hot on cross contamination so my worry would be not so much a woofer alerting to a potentially cross contaminated piece of wood (it does not appear to have been formally identified as a lump of coconut but I guess coconut is more amusing) than a forensic anthropologist saying it was a lump of human bone in the first instance then passing it over for a "spaniel test".
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 01:51:08 PM
    If you read the 383 page report posted by Brietta, Grime and his dogs don't take up much space. The thrust of the issue seems to be p**s poor media management by two officers.

    "Our main concern was the media strategy being used by Mr HARPER because although we knew nothing internally about the case, we were learning everything we knew from SKY news
    and other media sources".


    Y'all are hot on cross contamination so my worry would be not so much a woofer alerting to a potentially cross contaminated piece of wood (it does not appear to have been formally identified as a lump of coconut but I guess coconut is more amusing) than a forensic anthropologist saying it was a lump of human bone in the first instance then passing it over for a "spaniel test".

    The thrust of the issue is that Grime cocked up in leading a wild goose chase for (non-existent) "bodies"
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 01:58:56 PM
    The thrust of the issue is that Grime cocked up in leading a wild goose chase for (non-existent) "bodies"

    YOU MEAN THE WILD GOOSE CHASE INTO THE ACTIVITIES OF PAEDOPHILES FERRYMAN ?
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 02:07:29 PM
    Grime and his dogs were looking for bodies.

    That's what cadaver dogs do.

    Look for bodies.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 13, 2015, 02:09:32 PM
    The thrust of the issue is that Grime cocked up in leading a wild goose chase for (non-existent) "bodies"

    Either you and I are reading different reports, pal, or your prejudices against Mr Grime have severely impeded your comprehension faculties. Then on the other hand you may feel you are in a superior position to Wiltshire Police who investigated and compiled the report. Their opinion being somewhat at variance with your own and all
     8(0(*
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 02:11:02 PM
    Either you and I are reading different reports, pal, or your prejudices against Mr Grime have severely impeded your comprehension faculties. Then on the other hand you may feel you are in a superior position to Wiltshire Police who investigated and compiled the report. Their opinion being somewhat at variance with your own and all
     8(0(*


    You got it in ONE.

     8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 02:12:04 PM
    Either you and I are reading different reports, pal, or your prejudices against Mr Grime have severely impeded your comprehension faculties. Then on the other hand you may feel you are in a superior position to Wiltshire Police who investigated and compiled the report. Their opinion being somewhat at variance with your own and all
     8(0(*

    Nope
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 02:12:57 PM
    I'm not sure what the joke is. The "skull" fragment turned out to be wood-based.

    And picked up by FM.

    1809 - police dog repeatedly alerted to a wood shed.

    Cadaver Dogs: Aiding Law Enforcement throughout History

    http://www.annmarieackermann.com/tag/andreas-bichel/
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 02:14:21 PM
    so Grime says....
    It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to
     'a cadaver scent'  contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
     alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.


    and amaral says..
    From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann.

    Can there be any defence for amaral's outrageous statement...the answer has to be NO

    Equally Grime had no business speculating about cadaver scent.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 02:18:20 PM
    The whole Jersey investigation was a shambles. Jersey was after PDL,

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/jersey/7723860.stm

    However, we are discussing whether or not Amaral's thoughts, words and writings on the dogs and their reliability were justified, since there was no corroborating evidence to substantiate the alerts.


    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 02:19:43 PM
    1809 - police dog repeatedly alerted to a wood shed.

    Cadaver Dogs: Aiding Law Enforcement throughout History

    http://www.annmarieackermann.com/tag/andreas-bichel/

    So do you accept that the coconut shell at HdlG was just that, a coconut shell?
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 02:21:18 PM
    The whole Jersey investigation was a shambles. Jersey was after PDL,

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/jersey/7723860.stm

    However, we are discussing whether or not Amaral's thoughts, words and writings on the dogs and their reliability were justified, since there was no corroborating evidence to substantiate the alerts.

    As we all know well, the forensics were inconclusive, neither affirming or dismissing the dogs indications.

    Nothing else has come to light in this case.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 02:22:31 PM
    So do you accept that the coconut shell at HdlG was just that, a coconut shell?

    and clearly exposed to other 'substances'.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 02:24:01 PM
    As we all know well, the forensics were inconclusive, neither affirming or dismissing the dogs indications.

    Nothing else has come to light in this case.
    Is there a forensic test that can detect, Cadaver scent?
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 02:25:49 PM
    Equally Grime had no business speculating about cadaver scent.

    It's not speculating, Eddie gave an alert [potentially associated with] cadaver scent. That's his job and why he goes in first. Keela is only used after Eddie alerts. No blood indicates cadaver scent.



    Edited
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 02:26:16 PM
    Is there a forensic test that can detect, Cadaver scent?

    There isn't.

    And the dog indications were dismissed.

    Not least because of the error with cuddle-cat ....
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 02:26:23 PM
    Is there a forensic test that can detect, Cadaver scent?


    There are potentially many compounds associated with a body and subsequent decomposition.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 02:27:42 PM
    So do you accept that the coconut shell at HdlG was just that, a coconut shell?

    Wood absorbs fluids, scent a lot of stuff. Coconut my ass.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 02:29:34 PM
    Not even Grime said that ...

    But you'll probably get away with that untruth ...

    What was Eddie used for? Read Harrison's report - dogs are used to find evidence of death. Eddie detects death.

    "This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed." (Mark Harrison)
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 02:31:53 PM
    What was Eddie used for? Read Harrison's report - dogs are used to find evidence of death. Eddie detects death.

    I have read all 3 of Harrison's reports closely and attentively from first to last.

    You would do well to do the same.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 02:33:11 PM
    I have read all 3 of Harrison's reports closely and attentively from first to last.

    You would do well to do the same.

    "This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed." (Mark Harrison)

    What is Eddie used for?
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 02:37:37 PM
    "This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed." (Mark Harrison)

    What is Eddie used for?

    However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

    Mark Harrison.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 02:45:35 PM
    Is there a forensic test that can detect, Cadaver scent?

    AFAIK, they are still trying to work out which scents the dogs react to.

    Part of the problem is that there are hundreds of them, and will rise and fall in concentration over time, giving off different "bouquets" and the bouquet will also depend on factors such as time / decomp rate and whatever remains were / may be present.

    Individually, or in small combinations, some scents can be present in nature or everyday life.

    And then there is the issue as to how long the initial compounds remain detectable and in which conditions.

    I have no problem whatsoever with bringing in VRD dogs as an asset to help find potential remains. In the Madeleine case none were found, and in the Jersey case, nothing found related to the scope of the murder investigation.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: John on August 13, 2015, 02:53:09 PM
    Members are reminded to keep to the facts and not post what amounts to speculation. TY
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 02:53:28 PM
    Wood absorbs fluids, scent a lot of stuff. Coconut my ass.

    The "skull" fragment does appear to have been a bit of coconut or some other large woody pod.

    Some people still insist that it WAS a skull and that there is a mega interplanetary conspiracy about it.

    An argument has been whether this woody substance did in fact absorb, or was surrounded by, scents linked to possible death.

    Nothing tangible has been found... and it's not clear whether the dog could have reacted to any other human decomp scent deposited nearby and the humans simply got it wrong.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 02:56:20 PM
    "This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed." (Mark Harrison)

    What is Eddie used for?

    Evidence. He found none.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 02:58:16 PM
    AFAIK, they are still trying to work out which scents the dogs react to.

    Part of the problem is that there are hundreds of them, and will rise and fall in concentration over time, giving off different "bouquets" and the bouquet will also depend on factors such as time / decomp rate and whatever remains were / may be present.

    Individually, or in small combinations, some scents can be present in nature or everyday life.

    And then there is the issue as to how long the initial compounds remain detectable and in which conditions.

    I have no problem whatsoever with bringing in VRD dogs as an asset to help find potential remains. In the Madeleine case none were found, and in the Jersey case, nothing found related to the scope of the murder investigation.

    Thanks Carana,
    I agree. that to find a body or remains, they are invaluable to search teams. Without the evidence of remains, however, there can be many other reasons for an alert. None of us know what scent it is, that the dog alerts too. Even the specialist don't know what specific smell or combination it is, for sure.
    Please correct me if I am wrong.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 03:09:36 PM
    The whole Jersey investigation was a shambles. Jersey was after PDL,

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/jersey/7723860.stm

    However, we are discussing whether or not Amaral's thoughts, words and writings on the dogs and their reliability were justified, since there was no corroborating evidence to substantiate the alerts.

    "It's very unfortunate and I very much regret that information was put into the public domain by the States of Jersey police about certain finds at Haut de la Garenne, which was not strictly accurate."

    A self-perpetuating whirlwind of "inaccurate" police leaks and a media frenzy. Sounds familiar.

    As FM will no doubt point out, Grime was involved in both. However, where I disagree is that his involvement was the sole major factor.

    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 03:11:10 PM
    Thanks Carana,
    I agree. that to find a body or remains, they are invaluable to search teams. Without the evidence of remains, however, there can be many other reasons for an alert. None of us know what scent it is, that the dog alerts too. Even the specialist don't know what specific smell or combination it is, for sure.
    Please correct me if I am wrong.

    I've posted a link here several times about such dogs becoming confused by methane when searching for potential bodies in peat bogs... That's just one example.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 03:29:28 PM
    To take it out of gory context, the dog is tasked to look for evidence of a vegetable soup with loads of ingredients.

    Tomato soup doesn't smell the same as mushroom soup, or minestrone, with or without pulses, carrots, garlic, onions, courgettes, potatoes, herbs and spices.

    He's just looking for vegetable soup... to get his toy.

    It's then up to the humans to work out whether the residual scent of a carrot purée with tarragon was actually what they were looking for.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 13, 2015, 04:19:42 PM
    To take it out of gory context, the dog is tasked to look for evidence of a vegetable soup with loads of ingredients.

    Tomato soup doesn't smell the same as mushroom soup, or minestrone, with or without pulses, carrots, garlic, onions, courgettes, potatoes, herbs and spices.

    He's just looking for vegetable soup... to get his toy.

    It's then up to the humans to work out whether the residual scent of a carrot purée with tarragon was actually what they were looking for.

    Thanks for the reminder I have not had lunch yet.  ?{)(** 
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Carana on August 13, 2015, 04:47:59 PM
    Thanks for the reminder I have not had lunch yet.  ?{)(**

    You're welcome. Bon app. ;)
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 05:28:26 PM
    It's not speculating, Eddie gave an alert [potentially associated with] cadaver scent. That's his job and why he goes in first. Keela is only used after Eddie alerts. No blood indicates cadaver scent.



    Edited

    eddie's job is to find evidence...if all he ever did was alert and nothing was found he would be of no use at all
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 05:30:50 PM
    What was Eddie used for? Read Harrison's report - dogs are used to find evidence of death. Eddie detects death.

    "This report considers solely the possibility that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body is concealed." (Mark Harrison)
    Eddie is used to find EVIDENCE of death...the alerts are not evidence....Eddie found no evidence
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 05:45:46 PM
    Eddie is used to find EVIDENCE of death...the alerts are not evidence....Eddie found no evidence


     &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

    Yes there is.


    Circumstantial evidence.

    Inconclusive forensic results.

    So the dogs either did alert or didn't to a body.

    and dogs don't alert over nothing.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 07:06:21 PM
    I've posted a link here several times about such dogs becoming confused by methane when searching for potential bodies in peat bogs... That's just one example.

    Eddie alerted to clean scented clothes and it wasn't persil.

    CORNER: They took most of their clothing, they were taking even the wet clothes out of the washing machine.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 07:27:30 PM
    It was also concluded that the dog was "unreliable" round about the same place, ferryman;  I didn't post that because I couldn't be bothered ploughing through the document again for a cite.
    But if you do come across it when looking for the coconut details can you post it up too.

    What I did find was criticism, not of the dog, but of the archaeologist:

    We informed X of
    our concerns shortly afterwards, by phone and e-mail. We stand by our
    original assessment. We suggest that the curvature of the material
    may have had something to do with the misidentification. We
    think it appears to be more like part of a large seed casing, or part of
    something like a small piece of coconut. Certainly, the density of the
    material is most unlike bone, it is too light. Our conclusion is that this
    sample is: a) not bone and b) not human. We are very surprised that
    the forensic archaeologist could be so confident and differ in X
    identification. We suggested at the time that a further opinion would be
    required, but this not considered by X . A further
    analysis of the bone structure under a suitable microscope would
    confirm the situation rapidly.

    5.6.22 If this sample is bone and close to modern in age, then it would be
    unusual in our experience for it to be so poorly preserved and lacking
    in collagen. One would expect normally that for a bone coming from
    the last few decades that at least some collagen would survive. In the
    absence of collagen, one would conclude that the bone is probably
    older than this, possibly by several hundred or even several thousands
    of years. In this light, it is not liable to be of forensic interest. Our
    assessment is, however, that it is almost certainly not bone and it is for
    this reason that we have significant doubts over its forensic
    importance. This probably explains the problems we encountered with
    the sample and the fact that it is not able to be dated using collagen
    extraction techniques.


    I do recall those who scoffed at the (perfectly correct) assertion that was not bone asserted confidently that it must be because (they insisted) it contained collagen.

    In fact, it was absence of collagen that, in part, led to scepticism that this was bone ....
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 07:32:28 PM
    What are the probabilities that the only apartment (from where a missing child went missing) in amongst seven, contained  any one or all of the myriad of "living scents" (bypassing the sausages and bacon for now) to which the dogs alerted?

    Pretty unlucky don't you think?

    Bump for an answer...or opinion. Anyone good at maths?
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 07:37:52 PM
    Bump for an answer...or opinion. Anyone good at maths?

    "Inspections" of the other apartments were whistle-stop tours.

    Apartment 5a was long-drawn out and protracted until he got the result (dare I say it!) that was desired.

    Much the same with the vehicles.

    So pretty high.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 07:38:14 PM
    Well, let's see.

    According to Amaral, Eddie was involved in operational deployment and over 200 cases.  An FOI answer by SYP confirms the true number to be operational deployment and 37 cases.

    We can't really judge Grime's claim to be in post with SYP when he wrote his profile, because it is undated.

    But certainly he was freelance when he went to PdL.

    IIRC his personal profile mentioned over 200 case searches. The operative word beng searches, not cases.
    You are still calling him a liar as he has, in one of his reports stated that whilst a serving police officer working for South Yorkshire police, he undertook the search in PDL. That does not mean freelance.
    Ah!

    That is also the report that confirms, much more convincingly than tabloid newspapers, that Eddie alerted to a coconut .[/list]

    Eddie was not trained for and did not alert to fruit or vegetables..and if you like, per se
    Have you watched Lenny Harper's video interview on the subject?
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 13, 2015, 07:40:53 PM
    AFAIK, they are still trying to work out which scents the dogs react to.

    Part of the problem is that there are hundreds of them, and will rise and fall in concentration over time, giving off different "bouquets" and the bouquet will also depend on factors such as time / decomp rate and whatever remains were / may be present.

    Individually, or in small combinations, some scents can be present in nature or everyday life.

    And then there is the issue as to how long the initial compounds remain detectable and in which conditions.

    I have no problem whatsoever with bringing in VRD dogs as an asset to help find potential remains. In the Madeleine case none were found, and in the Jersey case, nothing found related to the scope of the murder investigation.

    It is worth reading some of the stuff about Matthew Zarella's trials using dogs to find MIAs in Vietnam.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 07:44:21 PM
    "Inspections" of the other apartments were whistle-stop tours.

    Apartment 5a was long-drawn out and protracted until he got the result (dare I say it!) that was desired.

    Much the same with the vehicles.

    So pretty high.

    In your haste to defend your argument that Mr Grime is a fraud the question appears to have actually gone right over your head.
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 07:51:33 PM
    It is worth reading some of the stuff about Matthew Zarella's trials using dogs to find MIAs in Vietnam.

    all this proves nothing applicable to the alerts...we all know dog's are excellent at finding evidence...that can be evaluated. what we don't know is how reliable the alerts are. It is claimed that eddie has never given a false alert...that is absolute BS and I don't believe Grime ever said that
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 07:53:01 PM
    Bump for an answer...or opinion. Anyone good at maths?
    There are simply too many unknowns to make any sort of accurate prediction...fact


    I would say that given the amount of information we have on the case we can make a fairly good estimate on whether maddie was abducted...I would say 90% plus
    Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
    Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 07:58:00 PM
      IIRC his personal profile mentioned over 200 case searches. The operative word beng searches, not cases.
      You are still calling him a liar as he has, in one of his reports stated that whilst a serving police officer working for South Yorkshire police, he undertook the search in PDL. That does not mean freelance.
      Eddie was not trained for and did not alert to fruit or vegetables..and if you like, per se
      Have you watched Lenny Harper's video interview on the subject?

      You recall incorrectly.

      Grime makes two separate references, one where he says cases; the other where he says case searches.

      [/list]
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 13, 2015, 07:59:33 PM
      all this proves nothing applicable to the alerts...we all know dog's are excellent at finding evidence...that can be evaluated. what we don't know is how reliable the alerts are. It is claimed that eddie has never given a false alert...that is absolute BS and I don't believe Grime ever said that
      I said the stuff about Matthew Zarella's trials was worth reading.
      You reply with a load of blx that has no bearing on my post.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 08:06:08 PM


      Well, it appears to be a case of, there is no chance that Eddie could have alerted to remnant dead body scent, for whch he was trained,  in the only apartment a person is missing from, and  to support that belief, a professional and seasoned police officer/dog handler has to be libelled with lies, half truths, twisted facts and insinuations

      A little crazy/illogical
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 08:09:12 PM
      There are simply too many unknowns to make any sort of accurate prediction...fact


      I would say that given the amount of information we have on the case we can make a fairly good estimate on whether maddie was abducted...I would say 90% plus

      I wasn't asking anyone  to be a fortune teller but do the math, and like Ferryman, I suggest you reread the original question which was not what you are probably imagning it to be.

      Your second paragraph is irrelevant to the question I asked
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 08:11:54 PM
      You recall incorrectly.

      Grime makes two separate references, one where he says case searches; the other where he says case searches; the other where he says cases.

      [/list]

      That's three

      Why don't you just accept it is highly probable he meant individual searches rather than cases whch would mean he lied, but I suppose that doesn't suit?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 08:18:33 PM
      There are simply too many unknowns to make any sort of accurate prediction...fact


      I would say that given the amount of information we have on the case we can make a fairly good estimate on whether maddie was abducted...I would say 90% plus

      Oh dear, he we go again.

      90% plus  *&*%£

      I can say with 100% certainty, you made that up. 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:19:29 PM
      I wasn't asking anyone  to be a fortune teller but do the math, and like Ferryman, I suggest you reread the original question which was not what you are probably imagning it to be.

      Your second paragraph is irrelevant to the question I asked

      well guess what...in my second paragraph I asked a question...do you imagine you are the only person able to ask a question
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 08:19:39 PM
        That's three

        Why don't you just accept it is highly probable he meant individual searches rather than cases whch would mean he lied, but I suppose that doesn't suit?
      I couldn't get the layout of the post right.

      Here is where Grime says operational deployment and over 200 cases

      http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME_IXprocesso_2265.jpg

      The true number is operational deployment and 37 cases.[/list]
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 08:21:12 PM
      Can we please get back on the track, of the thread topic. Thanks
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 08:21:56 PM
      at the end of each post?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 08:22:44 PM
      well guess what...in my second paragraph I asked a question...do you imagine you are the only person able to ask a question

      Are you eating mushrooms perchance? There was no question in your second (irrelevant) paragraph.
      If you cannot answer my original question, just say so
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:23:51 PM
      I wasn't asking anyone  to be a fortune teller but do the math, and like Ferryman, I suggest you reread the original question which was not what you are probably imagning it to be.

      Your second paragraph is irrelevant to the question I asked

      this is the original question...

      What are the probabilities that the only apartment (from where a missing child went missing) in amongst seven, contained  any one or all of the myriad of "living scents" (bypassing the sausages and bacon for now) to which the dogs alerted?

      Pretty unlucky don't you think?


      my answer is the same...not enough information to compute...as you asked if someone who is good at maths could work it out you obviously can't your self
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:25:40 PM
      Are you eating mushrooms perchance? There was no question in your second (irrelevant) paragraph.
      If you cannot answer my original question, just say so

      I've answered your original question twice...

      third time...not enough information
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 08:27:38 PM
      I couldn't get the layout of the post right.

      Here is where Grime says operational deployment and over 200 cases

      http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME_IXprocesso_2265.jpg

      The true number is operational deployment and 37 cases.[/list]

      And here he talks of case searches, now which one do you think is the more likely seeing as it is on record Eddie was involved in 37 cases?


      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2481.jpg

      Edited to correct link
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 08:28:30 PM
      Most mccann supporters on here attack the dog indications largely because the abduction scenario is bereft of evidence.

      Likewise, if they weren't apprehensive about the dogs in the first place, they would not give them the kudos they do, day after day.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:28:39 PM
      so would anyone like to give their opinion on what is the probability that Maddie was abducted
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 08:34:52 PM
      this is the original question...

      What are the probabilities that the only apartment (from where a missing child went missing) in amongst seven, contained  any one or all of the myriad of "living scents" (bypassing the sausages and bacon for now) to which the dogs alerted?

      Pretty unlucky don't you think?


      my answer is the same...not enough information to compute...as you asked if someone who is good at maths could work it out you obviously can't your self

      Well, that goes without saying Sherlock
      But if your  math is top notch do list the info that is missing that would enable you to deduce that it is improbable that out of seven inhabited residences the only residence found to have "living matter" that a cadaver dog "alledgedly" alerts to was the one cnnected to a missing person


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 08:41:18 PM
      Most mccann supporters on here attack the dog indications largely because the abduction scenario is bereft of evidence.

      Likewise, if they weren't apprehensive about the dogs in the first place, they would not give them the kudos they do, day after day.

      They say attack is the best form of defence. When the story of the dog alerts first broke back in 2007, there was a solicitor on Radio 4 telling a story (and laughing with contempt whilst doing so) about how snffer dogs react to fruit cake. I agree with you, protesting too much is a bit of a give away sometimes. Be better to let sleeping dogs lie, as it were

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 08:43:19 PM
      What I did find was criticism, not of the dog, but of the archaeologist:

      We informed X of
      our concerns shortly afterwards, by phone and e-mail. We stand by our
      original assessment. We suggest that the curvature of the material
      may have had something to do with the misidentification. We
      think it appears to be more like part of a large seed casing, or part of
      something like a small piece of coconut. Certainly, the density of the
      material is most unlike bone, it is too light. Our conclusion is that this
      sample is: a) not bone and b) not human. We are very surprised that
      the forensic archaeologist could be so confident and differ in X
      identification. We suggested at the time that a further opinion would be
      required, but this not considered by X . A further
      analysis of the bone structure under a suitable microscope would
      confirm the situation rapidly.

      5.6.22 If this sample is bone and close to modern in age, then it would be
      unusual in our experience for it to be so poorly preserved and lacking
      in collagen. One would expect normally that for a bone coming from
      the last few decades that at least some collagen would survive. In the
      absence of collagen, one would conclude that the bone is probably
      older than this, possibly by several hundred or even several thousands
      of years. In this light, it is not liable to be of forensic interest. Our
      assessment is, however, that it is almost certainly not bone and it is for
      this reason that we have significant doubts over its forensic
      importance. This probably explains the problems we encountered with
      the sample and the fact that it is not able to be dated using collagen
      extraction techniques.


      I do recall those who scoffed at the (perfectly correct) assertion that was not bone asserted confidently that it must be because (they insisted) it contained collagen.

      In fact, it was absence of collagen that, in part, led to scepticism that this was bone ....

      Thanks for trying, ferryman.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:43:36 PM
      Well, that goes without saying Sherlock
      But if your  math is top notch do list the info that is missing that would enable you to deduce that it is improbable that out of seven inhabited residences the only residence found to have "living matter" that a cadaver dog "alledgedly" alerts to was the one cnnected to a missing person

      First question...what did the dog's alert to......answer that and we can move forward
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:46:09 PM
      They say attack is the best form of defence. When the story of the dog alerts first broke back in 2007, there was a solicitor on Radio 4 telling a story (and laughing with contempt whilst doing so) about how snffer dogs react to fruit cake. I agree with you, protesting too much is a bit of a give away sometimes. Be better to let sleeping dogs lie, as it were

      if you understood the alerts...along with other posters on here...then you would realise how unimportant they are. Should I just allow poster to post lies re the alerts ...perpetuating myths...or correct them... I prefer to correct them
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 08:46:51 PM
      First question...what did the dog's alert to......answer that and we can move forward

      We know.

      Either it was a body or it wasn't.


      Next.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 08:48:42 PM
      First question...what did the dog's alert to......answer that and we can move forward

      No, deflecting won't do. The original claim was that cadaver dogs alert to all manner of normal everyday materials from living humans such as saliva, BO, semen, blood, toenails, bad breath, shed hair and moving on to bacon and sausages and pizza. Hence my question on why none of these existed anywhere n PDL the dogs searched except for one place.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 08:49:38 PM
      Thanks for trying, ferryman.

      Is that not what you had in mind?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 13, 2015, 08:52:27 PM
      amaral was not hypothesising...that's a mistake many make....he claimed to be able to prove maddie died in the apartment
      In the film the hypothesis it is quite clearly visually enacted in two scenes.
      The scene of inside the apartment while the chat is happening outside.
      The scene of a man carrying a child past the Irish family.

      A simple take away sum with those two times gives the hypothesis's PMI at moment of irish sighting.
      This is significantly less than the minimum PMI required to produce EVRD  alerts, according to the CSST study.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:54:14 PM
      No, deflecting won't do. The original claim was that cadaver dogs alert to all manner of normal everyday materials from living humans such as saliva, BO, semen, blood, toenails, bad breath, shed hair and moving on to bacon and sausages and pizza. Hence my question on why none of these existed anywhere n PDL the dogs searched except for one place.

      Then you should ask the question only of the posters who made that claim..


      My opinion is that we don't know what the alerts signified and neither does Grime
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 08:56:19 PM
      Thanks for trying, ferryman.

      Did you not watch and digest? Listen from 6 minutes on


      Perhaps a mod or admin can create a new thread about the coconut business
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 08:57:57 PM
      Then you should ask the question only of the posters who made that claim..


      My opinion is that we don't know what the alerts signified and neither does Grime

      I did, but had no response, so decided to ask others.Nothing so far has come anyway near close to answering but thanks for tryng
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:58:11 PM
      the very fact that the alerts are not accepted as evidence indicates they are unreliable
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 08:59:51 PM
      I did, but had no response, so decided to ask others.Nothing so far has come anyway near close to answering but thanks for tryng

      only in your opinion...to anyone who understands maths my answer is correct. To build a mathematical model you need information
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 09:00:02 PM
      the very fact that the alerts are not accepted as evidence indicates they are unreliable
      Fuzzy logic
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 09:01:45 PM
      Fuzzy logic

      no ...DNA ...fingerprints are accepted...you tell me why the alerts are not accepted...
      you don't need to tell me...Grime already has...perhaps you should listen to him
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 09:02:47 PM
      only in your opinion...to anyone who understands maths my answer is correct. To build a mathematical model you need information

      I asked you what info was missing, you ignored the question, in any case,  am certainly not going to argue the toss with you as it is entirely pointless trying  to debate with a person with a closed mind and despotic stance,

       &8#£% &8#£%
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 09:04:26 PM
      I asked you what info was missing, you ignored the question, in any case,  am certainly not going to argue the toss with you as it is entirely pointless trying  to debate with a person with a closed mind and despotic stance,

       &8#£% &8#£%

      I didn't ignore the question...I answered it...you cannot even get that simple point right
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 09:04:48 PM
      no ...DNA ...fingerprints are accepted...you tell me why the alerts are not accepted...
      you don't need to tell me...Grime already has...perhaps you should listen to him

      Thats not what you claimed. Your claim is alerts are not allowed as evidence BECAUSE they are unreliable, this is not a fact, just your interpretation whch is seriously flawed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 09:04:54 PM

      Perhaps a mod or admin can create a new thread about the coconut business

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3566.msg136728#msg136728
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 09:10:15 PM
      TOPIC. without the insults please


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 09:11:17 PM
      Is that not what you had in mind?

      It was a direct criticism of the dog made by one of the review team.

      I read what you posted sometime today so it is round about there ... perhaps just before.  I'll have a look later.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 09:13:55 PM
      It was a direct criticism of the dog made by one of the review team.

      I read what you posted sometime today so it is round about there ... perhaps just before.  I'll have a look later.

      page 117.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 09:21:36 PM
      Thats not what you claimed. Your claim is alerts are not allowed as evidence BECAUSE they are unreliable, this is not a fact, just your interpretation whch is seriously flawed.

      it is actually Grime who questions the reliability of the alerts....no evidential reliability is what he said...take it up with him
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 09:26:08 PM
      it is actually Grime who questions the reliability of the alerts....no evidential reliability is what he said...take it up with him

      It's very simple in reality.

      There either was or wasn't a body.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 09:27:47 PM
      Did you not watch and digest? Listen from 6 minutes on

      Perhaps a mod or admin can create a new thread about the coconut business

      Do you really rate that?  I've got as far as 'cover up' and 'you wouldn't believe it!' and that will do for me.

      Is it mandatory that every botched investigation and failed investigator are the victims of high level cover ups?

      The dog barked in Praia da Luz and nothing was found ... the dog barked in Haute de la Garenne and a tissue used to clean up after a sexual encounter was found ~ a coconut shell ~ milk teeth ~ animal bones (maybe pig?) ~ perhaps fragments of ancient human bone, but too fragmented to tell.


      **Snip
      For Mick Gradwell, who retired last month after 30 years as an officer, the only way to clear up the mess is to hold a public inquiry into both Harper and Jersey's child abuse.

      He said: 'This is one of the worst policing fiascos of modern times, and those responsible need to be called to account.'

      Meanwhile, nothing infuriates those still serving more than the claim there has been a cover-up.
      Dave Warcup said: 'The inquiry team numbered between 40 and 50 experienced officers made up of both local officers and personnel seconded from the UK.

      'The majority of the team had no previous association with Jersey. These assertions are clearly fanciful. They are insulting to every individual who has worked in and around the inquiry.'

      Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html#ixzz3ijCeBe00
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 09:28:10 PM
      only in your opinion...to anyone who understands maths my answer is correct. To build a mathematical model you need information

      What 'model' do you employ ?

      A Binomial Distribution ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 09:32:22 PM
      It's very simple in reality.

      There either was or wasn't a body.

      True Stephen, We can't possibly, know the unknown. What did Mr Amaral believe he knew?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 09:35:10 PM
        And here he talks of case searches, now which one do you think is the more likely seeing as it is on record Eddie was involved in 37 cases?


        http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2481.jpg

        Edited to correct link
      Grime said Eddie had been involved in operational deployment and over 200 cases.

      The true number is operational deployment and 37 cases.

      The discrepancy matters because the false figure was used (although not by Grime) to brow-beat the McCanns in their arguido interviews.[/list]
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 09:36:53 PM
      True Stephen, We can't possibly, know the unknown. What did Mr Amaral believe he knew?

      That is the topic of the thread. Stephen admits that the alerts do not tell us if there was a death in the apartment...yet amaral claimed the alerts proved maddie died in the apartment... Amaral was wrong yet many deluded people still believe him
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 09:37:41 PM
      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3566.msg136728#msg136728

      the problem here is you can have 100 threads discussing something and there is no resolution/arbiter of truth....how to solve this??
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 09:38:41 PM
      it is actually Grime who questions the reliability of the alerts....no evidential reliability is what he said...take it up with him
      No, wrong again, he never questioned the reliability of his dogs alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 09:39:03 PM
      the problem here is you can have 100 threads discussing something and there is no resolution/arbiter of truth....how to solve this??

      try posting on the correct thread
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 09:40:25 PM
      Grime said Eddie had been involved in operational deployment and over 200 cases.

      The true number is operational deployment and 37 cases.

      The discrepancy matters because the false figure was used (although not by Grime) to brow-beat the McCanns in their arguido interviews.[/list]

      My link proves you are wrong....case "searches" which is the most logical explanation
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 13, 2015, 09:41:18 PM
        My link proves you are wrong....case "searches" which is the most logical explanation
      You just quoted from the wrong place.[/list]
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 09:42:10 PM
      No, wrong again, he never questioned the reliability of his dogs alerts

      Grime stated.."it is possible " that the alert was to cadaverine contaminant....that means it may not have been ...that means it is not reliable...Grime used the words no evidential "reliability"....that is questioning the "reliability" of the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 09:42:42 PM
      True Stephen, We can't possibly, know the unknown. What did Mr Amaral believe he knew?

      That is well known.

      He was either right or wrong.

      Let's not forget either, that many police detectives go by their instinct in cases.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 09:44:02 PM
      page 117.

      You are a star Anna ... that is precisely what I was after ...

      After the 'build up' given to him resulting from Praia da Luz where the Drs McCann were at that time arguidos; I think the expectations for Eddie were just too high and just because he didn't find the bodies allegedly buried in Haute de la Garenne didn't really mean he was 'unreliable'.

      It just meant that there were no bodies there to be found.


      Quote

      3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again, Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’.
      https://madeleinemccannthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/r-wiltshireoperationhavenredacted-20081112-jn.pdf
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 09:44:14 PM
      That is well known.

      He was either right or wrong.

      Let's not forget either, that many police detectives go by their instinct in cases.

      amaral was wrong...full stop...he claimed he could prove Maddie died in the apartment...he was 100% wrong
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 09:44:52 PM
      That is well known.

      He was either right or wrong.

      Let's not forget either, that many police detectives go by their instinct in cases.

      Very true. I was merely pointing out the Topic of this thread 'Amaral and the dogs'
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 09:49:37 PM
      amaral was wrong...full stop...he claimed he could prove Maddie died in the apartment...he was 100% wrong

      I'm afraid to say he wasn't proven wrong or right.

      However, unlike what gerry mccann said, dogs are reliable.

      and in that smarmy smug comment to Sandra Felgueiras , he was talking out of his derriere.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 13, 2015, 09:49:47 PM
      "... the dog's behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment ..."
      Volume IX pages 2473 - 2477
      If that were a correct observation would it suggest an elapsed interval significantly greater than minimum?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 09:51:40 PM
      Very true. I was merely pointing out the Topic of this thread 'Amaral and the dogs'

      As we have both said Anna, this case will most likely never be solved.

      Sometimes I wonder how long the arguments on here will continue for, in regard to this case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 09:54:00 PM
      I'm afraid to say he wasn't proven wrong or right.

      However, unlike what gerry mccann said, dogs are reliable.

      and in that smarmy smug comment to Sandra Felgueiras , he was talking out of his derriere.

      he is proven wrong by your own statement...amaral claimed he could prove maddie died in the apartment...he cannot prove such...he is 100% wrong
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 09:54:22 PM
      try posting on the correct thread
      Correct thread despite your despotism
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 09:55:45 PM
      You just quoted from the wrong place.[/list]

      Nope. Your post makes no sense. Grime categorically stated 200 case searches, now if yu want to continue calling him a fraud, its your prerogative
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 13, 2015, 09:56:44 PM
      he is proven wrong by your own statement...amaral claimed he could prove maddie died in the apartment...he cannot prove such...he is 100% wrong

      Can you say she didn't die in the apartment ?

      Criminal cases rarely provide all the direct evidence needed to solve a crime, as with this case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 09:57:12 PM
      Grime stated.."it is possible " that the alert was to cadaverine contaminant....that means it may not have been ...that means it is not reliable...Grime used the words no evidential "reliability"....that is questioning the "reliability" of the alerts

      No. He is not questionng the reliability of the alerts. Its that simple.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 09:57:58 PM
      the problem here is you can have 100 threads discussing something and there is no resolution/arbiter of truth....how to solve this??

      try posting on topic...the title of this thread is amaral and the dogs...was amaral right to say he could prove maddie died in the apartment...no he wasn't
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:00:00 PM
      No. He is not questionng the reliability of the alerts. Its that simple.

      If the alerts are reliable the why is he saying it is"POSSIBLE"  that the alerts are to cadaver...if the alerts were reliable it would definitely signal cadaver
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:01:13 PM
      So when you are losing an argument you pretend to be a moderator, 2/10 for comedy value

      and when you have lost the argument you pretend you haven't and resort to insults as you did tonight
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 10:02:06 PM
      Very true. I was merely pointing out the Topic of this thread 'Amaral and the dogs'

      From the link you provided, Anna:-

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3566.msg136059#msg136059

      How sad ... the plaque on the oak tree would have alerted them why Eddie had alerted there.  But if there had been no plaque or anyone who knew the history ... no-one would have ever known what it was Eddie was alerting to.

      Just as no-one can tell what he was alerting to in 5A master bedroom ... which is why it has no evidential value.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:02:45 PM
      Do you really rate that? 

      I'd rate a policeman on the job more than a stranger on the internet
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:03:24 PM
      From the link you provided, Anna:-

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3566.msg136059#msg136059

      How sad ... the plaque on the oak tree would have alerted them why Eddie had alerted there.  But if there had been no plaque or anyone who knew the history ... no-one would have ever known what it was Eddie was alerting to.

      Just as no-one can tell what he was alerting to in 5A master bedroom ... which is why it has no evidential value.

      no evidential value or reliability...but some try to pretend they do
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:10:19 PM
      oh dear...you are a million per cent wrong...how embarrassing for you...could you supply a cite for this statement...you will not be able to

      not embarrassed at all, why would I be

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      scroll down to SUMMARY


      cadaver scent contaminant


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 10:12:13 PM
      But those were NOT his only words, his CONCLUSION was that "in his professional opinion" the dog was alerting to cadaverscent contaminant. ie he was sure he was
      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
      suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
      number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
      reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
      corroborating evidence.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:18:36 PM
      Do you have a cite for this comment, please
      (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2477.jpg)

      summary
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:20:51 PM
      (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2477.jpg)

      summary

      I'm sure you now realise you were wrong
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:21:25 PM
      you should be embarrassed because what you have posted isn't true...it's a lie...Grime states...

      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert
       indications is that it is  suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.



      you missed out the word suggestive...try posting honestly in future

      suggestive means just that, it suggests, points to, indicates  it doesnt mean "i have no clue and it could be bad breath or sausages"

      cadaver scent means = from a dead body
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 10:22:31 PM
      (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2477.jpg)

      summary

      Martin Grime couldn't have made himself any clearer ... why do you find it so difficult to understand what he is saying?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:23:39 PM
      suggestive means just that, it suggests, points to, indicates  it doesnt mean "i have no clue and it could be bad breath or sausages"

      cadaver scent means = from a dead body

      your post was not true...you missed out "suggestive"...we all know what suggests means and it doesn't mean something is "certain" ...which you claimed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:24:58 PM
      Martin Grime couldn't have made himself any clearer ... why do you find it so difficult to understand what he is saying?

      I am very clear about what he is sayng
      He is sayng in his professional opinion cadaver scent was alerted to, what exactly is your problem there?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:26:35 PM
      I am very clear about what he is sayng
      He is sayng in his professional opinion cadaver scent was alerted to, what exactly is your problem there?

      no problem...you have just shown to be yet another sceptic who doesn't understand the evidence...Grime says suggestive and you see "certain"......enuff said
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:27:28 PM
      your post was not true...you missed out "suggestive"...we all know what suggests means and it doesn't mean something is "certain" ...which you claimed

      Dont be so silly, its just a word and besides means in every  way shape or form in  the english language that it POINTS TO
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:29:10 PM
      no problem...you have just shown to be yet another sceptic who doesn't understand the evidence...Grime says suggestive and you see "certain"......enuff said
      Grime and the cadaver dog found indications of death...you can spin for eternity but never manage to erase this FACT

       8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:33:33 PM
      Grime and the cadaver dog found indications of death...you can spin for eternity but never manage to erase this FACT

       8((()*/

      i'll stick with what Grime actually says
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 13, 2015, 10:34:58 PM
      OK Guys enough.
      I will remove all the nonsense about the summary and leave the correct wording of the summary in place

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:35:56 PM
      OK Guys enough.
      I will remove all the nonsense about the summary and leave the correct wording of the summary in place

      thank you Anna..let's stick to the facts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:36:08 PM
      i'll stick with what Grime actually says
      whch is indication of death scent, cool, we agree at last
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:39:07 PM
      whch is indication of death scent, cool, we agree at last

      if you think I agree with anything you say once again you are mistaken. If you are going to quote Grime then in future quote honestly
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 10:41:01 PM
      Martin Grime couldn't have made himself any clearer ... why do you find it so difficult to understand what he is saying?

      "The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family."  Smithman come forward and bring your 12 year old Maddy lookalike daughter with you to clear yourself. Soon everybody will be thinking you're someone else 8(>((
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:43:18 PM
      "The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family."  Smithman come forward and bring your 12 year old Maddy lookalike daughter with you to clear yourself. Soon everybody will be thinking you're someone else 8(>((
      yet SY say the McCanns are not suspects and are still spending millions investigating in portugal
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:44:05 PM
      How can anyone quote dishonestly when one issues a quote, lol

      Grime said in his opinion Eddie was alerting to cadaver scent contaminant

      end of basically

      no he didn't...you are still being dishonest
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:45:55 PM
      no he didn't...you are still being dishonest

      yup, exactly what he said, your apoplexy is puzzling
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:47:25 PM
      yet SY say the McCanns are not suspects and are still spending millions investigating in portugal
      nope SY said Mccanns were not suspects in a certain context, same with PJ, stop lyng

       8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 13, 2015, 10:53:24 PM
      suggestive means just that, it suggests, points to, indicates  it doesnt mean "i have no clue and it could be bad breath or sausages"

      cadaver scent means = from a dead body

      Not necessarily from a dead body mercury, -  hair, teeth and fingernails can be parted from their live owners at times and would decompose.   Also an alert could be to a scent which had been innocently transferred there from another source.    I could also be to a scent emanating from underground.

      Without corroborating evidence no-one can say which scenario it is.

      Quote from THE SUN  - (Yes I know  - but it's in quotation marks - so a direct quote)

      Martin Grime:-

      : "Blood could be invisible to the naked eye, but Keela will detect it. It doesn't matter if it's hundreds of years old.  "Eddie smells for the scent of a decomposing human body. He can detect any part of a human body that is decomposing - hair, bones, flesh, anything. "The smell of a decomposing body is very difficult to get rid of. It can easily be transferred to clothing and on to a person."

      Unquote
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 10:54:56 PM
      yet SY say the McCanns are not suspects and are still spending millions investigating in portugal

      They are not suspects and are spending millions to close this case for good. The circus can wait.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 13, 2015, 10:55:49 PM
      They are not suspects and are spending millions to close this case for good. The circus can wait.

      just one more question...howdya know that
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 13, 2015, 10:59:28 PM
      Not necessarily from a dead body mercury, -  hair, teeth and fingernails can be parted from their live owners at times and would decompose.   Also an alert could be to a scent which had been innocently transferred there from another source.    I could also be to a scent emanating from underground.

      Without corroborating evidence no-one can say which scenario it is.

      Quote from THE SUN  - (Yes I know  - but it's in quotation marks - so a direct quote)

      Martin Grime:-

      : "Blood could be invisible to the naked eye, but Keela will detect it. It doesn't matter if it's hundreds of years old.  "Eddie smells for the scent of a decomposing human body. He can detect any part of a human body that is decomposing - hair, bones, flesh, anything. "The smell of a decomposing body is very difficult to get rid of. It can easily be transferred to clothing and on to a person."

      Unquote

      remember my orignal question benice, why indications to ONLY 5a living or dead derived....no one cN answer this
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 13, 2015, 11:16:16 PM
      remember my orignal question benice, why indications to ONLY 5a living or dead derived....no one cN answer this

      Well IMO mercury it's because far more time was spent on everything McCann related than on anything else.   If the same time had been spent on the non-McCann related cars and apartments then it's my firm belief that alerts would also have occurred in those places.

      In view of Martin Grime's claim  (which I believe) that his dogs could alert to the tiniest of scents, even decades of years old  -which cannot be removed by cleaning  - then I simply can't accept that not one speck of blood was ever spilt in any part of those other apartments or cars over such a long period of time.    Sorry but that's just not credible IMO.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 11:27:10 PM
      Well IMO mercury it's because far more time was spent on everything McCann related than on anything else.   If the same time had been spent on the non-McCann related cars and apartments then it's my firm belief that alerts would also have occurred in those places.

      In view of Martin Grime's claim  (which I believe) that his dogs could alert to the tiniest of scents, even decades of years old  -which cannot be removed by cleaning  - then I simply can't accept that not one speck of blood was ever spilt in any part of those other apartments or cars over such a long period of time.    Sorry but that's just not credible IMO.

      Keela is not used unless Eddie alerts. Eddie only alerted in 5A. Eddie goes in first to detect death. If he detects it Keela is brought in to find any trace of blood i.e. of the missing person. These dogs are used to find evidence in murder cases. SY homicide team are working on this case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 13, 2015, 11:30:53 PM
      Keela is not used unless Eddie alerts. Eddie only alerted in 5A. Eddie goes in first to detect death. If he detects it Keela is brought in to find any trace of blood i.e. of the missing person. These dogs are used to find evidence in murder cases. SY homicide team are working on this case.

      Yes I know what Eddie and Keela do (or did)  but what has any of that got to do with my post?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 13, 2015, 11:32:28 PM
      Yes I know what Eddie and Keela do (or did)  but what has any of that got to do with my post?

      Your post is meaningless. Did they find any teeth in the wardrobe or on the clothes?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 13, 2015, 11:40:51 PM
      Your post is meaningless. Did they find any teeth in the wardrobe or on the clothes?


      Even if the decomposing material has gone - the residual scent remains.    Eddie detected nothing except scent - which could be there for a number of reasons, and not all associated with the presence of a dead body. 








      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 13, 2015, 11:41:12 PM
      Your post is meaningless. Did they find any teeth in the wardrobe or on the clothes?

      Actually it was Eddie's alerts which were and are meaningless.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 14, 2015, 12:22:40 AM
      Actually it was Eddie's alerts which were and are meaningless.

      Eddie's alerts are never meaningless as past cases prove.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 14, 2015, 01:50:08 AM
      Eddie's alerts are never meaningless as past cases prove.

      Eddies alerts are meaningless without any corroborating evidence.  There was no corroborating evidence.


      And you KNOW IT.



      Why do you keep pushing untruths Pfinder.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2015, 06:27:35 AM
      Eddies alerts are meaningless without any corroborating evidence.  There was no corroborating evidence.


      And you KNOW IT.



      Why do you keep pushing untruths Pfinder.

      Some think Eddie was right, others think he was wrong. On balance he was very good at what he did. Keela proved him right twice. His alerts are definitely not meaningless in my opinion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 06:38:32 AM
      Some think Eddie was right, others think he was wrong. On balance he was very good at what he did. Keela proved him right twice. His alerts are definitely not meaningless in my opinion.

      Grime is on record as stating that Eddie alerted to cuddle-cat.

      But only second time of asking.

      And while Eddie did react to something within his scent range in the Renault Scenic, that was only after copious direction and re-direction towards a specific target (the car with the stickers in the back).

      And we have the record of a PJ officer who expressed puzzlement that Eddie only alerted anywhere after constant direction and re-direction ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2015, 06:48:09 AM
      Grime is on record as stating that Eddie alerted to cuddle-cat.

      But only second time of asking.

      And while Eddie did react to something within his scent range in the Renault Scenic, that was only after copious direction and re-direction towards a specific target (the car with the stickers in the back).

      And we have the record of a PJ officer who expressed puzzlement that Eddie only alerted anywhere after constant direction and re-direction ....

      Are you accusing Grime of somehow persuading Eddie to alert?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 07:10:09 AM
      Are you accusing Grime of somehow persuading Eddie to alert?

      Quote
      From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

      If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

      On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'

      (PJ Inspector Dias)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 07:13:34 AM
      Are you accusing Grime of somehow persuading Eddie to alert?

      I would say 100% yes for reasons I have given before...absolutely nothing wrong with that imo
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 08:05:36 AM
      I would say 100% yes for reasons I have given before...absolutely nothing wrong with that imo

      and what precisely is your experience in handling dogs used in this field of police work ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 08:08:20 AM
      Some think Eddie was right, others think he was wrong. On balance he was very good at what he did. Keela proved him right twice. His alerts are definitely not meaningless in my opinion.

      and what precisely is your experience in handling dogs used in this field of police work ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:19:43 AM
      Your post is meaningless. Did they find any teeth in the wardrobe or on the clothes?
      Thats a first, remnant scent of fallen out teeth

       @)(++(*

      Yes my lord, a toddlers tooth fell out and we stuck it in the wardrobe
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 08:22:01 AM
      Thats a first, remnant scent of fallen out teeth

       @)(++(*

      Yes my lord, a toddlers tooth fell out and we stuck it in the wardrobe

      for the record and not that it has any bearing on this case but exfoliated deciduous teeth will contain remnants of blood
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:22:57 AM
      Well IMO mercury it's because far more time was spent on everything McCann related than on anything else.   If the same time had been spent on the non-McCann related cars and apartments then it's my firm belief that alerts would also have occurred in those places.

      In view of Martin Grime's claim  (which I believe) that his dogs could alert to the tiniest of scents, even decades of years old  -which cannot be removed by cleaning  - then I simply can't accept that not one speck of blood was ever spilt in any part of those other apartments or cars over such a long period of time.    Sorry but that's just not credible IMO.

      How much time are you talking about? If there is no interest indicated by the dog, there is no interest.Are you saying all other 6 residences must have had cadaverscent contaminant from dead (or live humans as it put across ) but Eddie wasnt given the chance to find it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:24:47 AM
      for the record and not that it has any bearing on this case but exfoliated deciduous teeth will contain remnants of blood

      Only Keela said, NO

       8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 08:28:49 AM
      Only Keela said, NO

       8((()*/

      hopefully you realise now Grime has not confirmed any alerts to cadaver......
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 14, 2015, 08:40:38 AM
      How much time are you talking about? If there is no interest indicated by the dog, there is no interest.Are you saying all other 6 residences must have had cadaverscent contaminant from dead (or live humans as it put across ) but Eddie wasnt given the chance to find it?

      IMO mercury -  the car video is the best example of the difference in timing.  The most time spent at any of the other cars was 30 seconds (and that's being generous).    Eddie did not even do a full circuit of one of the cars before being allowed to move on. 

       So  - after 30 seconds no alert was made.   But that is no different to the Renault - as no alert had been made to it after 30 seconds either.   The difference is that -  unlike with the other cars -  Eddie was not allowed to move on from the Renault - he was called back numerous times - with MG actually tapping the car in places - and it was 2 minutes before he alerted.   

      If Eddie had been directed to spend the same amount of time on the other cars - then  (unless you believe no 'alertable material' had ever been deposited in any of those cars since their manufacture) -  alerts may well have resulted.    But he wasn't - so we shall never know. 

      The same principle applies re the apartments.

      AIMO




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:43:37 AM
      hopefully you realise now Grime has not confirmed any alerts to cadaver......

      Your problem is explaining the cadaver scent alert in 5a bedroom and verandah...keep trying
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 08:46:32 AM
      Your problem is explaining the cadaver scent alert in 5a bedroom and verandah...keep trying

      there is no confirmation of cadaver scent in any location..fact....your problem is that you did not understand what Grime said...fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:47:54 AM
      IMO mercury -  the car video is the best example of the difference in timing.  The most time spent at any of the other cars was 30 seconds (and that's being generous).    Eddie did not even do a full circuit of one of the cars before being allowed to move on. 

       So  - after 30 seconds no alert was made.   But that is no different to the Renault - as no alert had been made to it after 30 seconds either.   The difference is that -  unlike with the other cars -  Eddie was not allowed to move on from the Renault - he was called back numerous times - with MG actually tapping the car in places - and it was 2 minutes before he alerted.   

      If Eddie had been directed to spend the same amount of time on the other cars - then  (unless you believe no 'alertable material' had ever been deposited in any of those cars since their manufacture) -  alerts may well have resulted.    But he wasn't - so we shall never know. 

      The same principle applies re the apartments.

      AIMO

      No, that won't do. A dog either shows interest or it doesn't. It alerts or it doesn't. It alerted in one place only and that is significant.
      Unless you are of the Mr Grime is a fraud school of thnking.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:49:48 AM
      there is no confirmation of cadaver scent in any location..fact....your problem is that you did not understand what Grime said...fact

      There is no such thing as confirmation of remnant cadaverscent in existence...fact

       8((()*/

      All we have is the indication and Grime's confirmation of it...fact

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:17:22 AM
      In that case, so does Mark Harrison, who said exactly the same thing ....

      No, he did not say cadaver dog alerts are meaningless, you cannot put words into anyone's  mouth to suit

      Unconfirmed alerts are not evidence, that is all he said
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 09:23:41 AM
      No, he did not say cadaver dog alerts are meaningless, you cannot put words into anyone's  mouth to suit

      Unconfirmed alerts are not evidence, that is all he said

      When cadaver dog alerts lead to evidence that implicates culprits or identifies victims of crime, they are meaningful.

      Alerts that are red-herrings are meaningless.

      Eddie's alert to the Renault Scenic was meaningless. 

      It was to Gerry's blood.

      Gerry drove the car and was entitled to.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 14, 2015, 09:26:34 AM
      Grime is on record as stating that Eddie alerted to cuddle-cat.

      But only second time of asking.

      And while Eddie did react to something within his scent range in the Renault Scenic, that was only after copious direction and re-direction towards a specific target (the car with the stickers in the back).

      And we have the record of a PJ officer who expressed puzzlement that Eddie only alerted anywhere after constant direction and re-direction ....

      Why did Eddie only pick that toy out which was on her bed? Why not another toy in the villa?  That's why Grime hid it and did the second test and kept the cupboard slightly open at the top and Eddie went up high and then alerted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:31:30 AM
      When cadaver dog alerts lead to evidence that implicates culprits or identifies victims of crime, they are meaningful.

      Alerts that are red-herrings are meaningless.

      Eddie's alert to the Renault Scenic was meaningless. 

      It was to Gerry's blood.

      Gerry drove the car and was entitled to.
      The only red herring is your first paragraph, also
      Where is the evidence that it was Gerrys blood in the car any more than it was Madeleine's blood in the lving room?Have to go,will catch up tonight
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 09:32:14 AM
      Why did Eddie only pick that toy out which was on her bed? Why not another toy in the villa?  That's why Grime hid it and did the second test and kept the cupboard slightly open at the top and Eddie went up high and then alerted.

      Grime hid the toy because he didn't want a repeat of the fiasco of Eddie playing with it.

      Do you seriously think that police dogs attending a crime-scene, ever, should pick stuff up in their mouths?

      Seriously?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 14, 2015, 09:36:27 AM
      No, that won't do. A dog either shows interest or it doesn't. It alerts or it doesn't. It alerted in one place only and that is significant.
      Unless you are of the Mr Grime is a fraud school of thnking.

      Eddie showed the same lack of interest in the Renault after 30 seconds as he did to the other cars.   If it wasn't for the repeated call-backs that would have been an end to it IMO.     It was Martin Grime's behaviour which changed at the Renault - not Eddies.   He did not repeatedly call Eddie back to any other car.

      No way do I think MG is a fraud but I do not rule out the possibility of unconscious cueing -  and that is not a slur on MG  - as the handler does not know it is happening.    And it certainly is NOT a crime.

      IMO Martin Grime is a brilliant dog trainer, but he is still human and therefore it is not impossible that this may have happened.   
       
      This 'job' was under in the world's spotlight and he was about to embark on his own business where Eddie and Keela would be his livelihood.    That must have involved a considerable amount of extra  pressure to make sure that he 'got it right'.         It certainly wasn't just another day at the office for him IMO, which it would have been had he been staying in the police service IMO.

      IMO he may have inadvertently and unconsciously over-egged the pudding.

      I repeat that is not a crime, but something which does happen.   Tests have proved 'unconscious cueing' to be a fact -  and something which can happen to perfectly decent and honest police dog handlers.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 14, 2015, 09:39:08 AM
      Eddies alerts are meaningless without any corroborating evidence.  There was no corroborating evidence.


      And you KNOW IT.



      Why do you keep pushing untruths Pfinder.

      There was no forensic evidence found in the Kate Prout case but her husband was still convicted of her murder on circumstantial evidence. Eddie's alert changed that case. There are others - Eddie alerting to a killer's diary after he had transferred the scent etc. As soon as the perp has touched a cadaver they can transfer the scent to Cuddle Cat if they pick it up and place it on a bed. And that suggests staging of a crime Sadie.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2015, 09:44:23 AM
      (PJ Inspector Dias)

      Was that a yes or a no? Was Grime persuading Eddie to alert in your opinion or not?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2015, 09:50:13 AM
      I would say 100% yes for reasons I have given before...absolutely nothing wrong with that imo

      Police dog handlers direct the search, they don't 'persuade' the dogs to alert.  @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 10:23:06 AM
      Was that a yes or a no? Was Grime persuading Eddie to alert in your opinion or not?

      It is for Grime, not me, to explain why he kept directing and re-directing the dog back to one car (the car with find Madeleine stickers plastered all over the back windows).

      It is for Grime, not me, to explain why the tours of all other apartments were whistle-stop, and the tour of apartment 5a long-drawn-out and protracted.

      It is for Harrison, not me, to explain why he acknowledged the input of Grime and his dogs only in those inspections he recommended.
       
      I wish Alfred still had the link to the way bias can influence a handler's judgment and interaction with his dog.

      Indeed, in Grime's own profile, he makes reference to that very bias (in respect of other handlers, not himself ....)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 10:30:43 AM
      There is no such thing as confirmation of remnant cadaverscent in existence...fact

       8((()*/

      All we have is the indication and Grime's confirmation of it...fact

      the alerts are unconfirmed...grime has not and cannot confirm them...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 14, 2015, 10:41:51 AM
      How much time are you talking about? If there is no interest indicated by the dog, there is no interest.Are you saying all other 6 residences must have had cadaverscent contaminant from dead (or live humans as it put across ) but Eddie wasnt given the chance to find it?

      Think very carefully about what you are saying here.

      How likely is it that in all the residences checked by the dogs, including the Murat villa ... the only place where an individual had shed blood was in the McCann holiday residence?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 10:43:15 AM
      On the 200 cases / searches saga:


      From Grime's personal profile:
      In six years operational deployment in over 200 cases the dog has never alerted to meat based foodstuffs.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm


      In his report, "200 cases" is modified to state "200 criminal case searches":

      In six years of operational deployment in over 200
      criminal case searches
      the dog has never alerted to meat based and
      specifically pork foodstuffs designed for human consumption. Similarly the
      dog has never alerted to 'road kill
      ', that is any other dead animal.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      Some people may believe that the use of "cases" is misleadingly implying that the dog had worked on 200 criminal cases; others may believe that the profile was hastily written and the wording wasn't as clear as it could have been.

      Whatever the view on that, he was still only talking about meat-based products for human consumption (bacon sandwiches / sausages) and road-kill (e.g., dead hedgehogs, birds, whatever other dead animals one tends to find on the side of a road).

      However, over time, numerous sceptics on various forums have exaggerated Eddie's success by stating that he was responsible for over 200 homicide convictions.

      Not only should common sense indicate that it is highly unlikely that a dog deployed for six years had helped to secure over 200 convictions, but we know from an FOI that he was only deployed in 37 cases in total.


      (...) However, we can provide the following details regarding Victim Search Dog deployments between 2003 and 2007:

      As two teams working together: handler Ellis and dog Frankie, with handler Grime and dog Eddie have been deployed on twenty occasions, with the recovery of four bodies.

      Working alone, Grime/Eddie have been deployed on seventeen occasions with the recovery of one body and Ellis/Frankie have been deployed on five occasions with the recovery of three bodies, this includes the recovery of two women in one grave.



      In the following interview, is Amaral referring to 200 "condemnations" since the use of such dogs had been introduced in the UK / USA, or did he "misunderstand" what Grime actually stated concerning Eddie?

      Focus – A newspaper reported that your book could be summed up as “murder, the dog wrote”, given the fact that it was the cadaver odour and the blood that were found that led you to sustain the theory that Madeleine McCann died. What do you actually know beyond the dogs?

      Gonçalo Amaral – That comment only reveals the ignorance of the person who wrote it. The technique of residue collection using special dogs like these, CSIs, is usual in England, in the United States and it has already led to more than 200 condemnations. The laboratory where the samples [of blood, cadaver odour and DNA from Maddie] were analyzed has corroborated these experts’ work.

      Focus – It has corroborated it, but it does not specify that they belong to Maddie McCann.

      G.A. – They can only match that from Madeleine McCann, because the lab had the twins’ DNA and it was not a match. Those are 15 out of 19 markers that match.


      http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/08/i-was-close-to-finding-maddie.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 10:45:12 AM
      Think very carefully about what you are saying here.

      How likely is it that in all the residences checked by the dogs, including the Murat villa ... the only place where an individual had shed blood was in the McCann holiday residence?


      Could be a body and there had been no bodies elsewhere.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 14, 2015, 10:46:06 AM
      It is for Grime, not me, to explain why he kept directing and re-directing the dog back to one car (the car with find Madeleine stickers plastered all over the back windows).

      It is for Grime, not me, to explain why the tours of all other apartments were whistle-stop, and the tour of apartment 5a long-drawn-out and protracted.

      It is for Harrison, not me, to explain why he acknowledged the input of Grime and his dogs only in those inspections he recommended.
       
      I wish Alfred still had the link to the way bias can influence a handler's judgment and interaction with his dog.

      Indeed, in Grime's own profile, he makes reference to that very bias (in respect of other handlers, not himself ....)

      Is it this article Ferryman ?  The study referred to by Lit, Schweitzer, and Oberbauer ( "Handler beliefs affect scent detection dog outcomes")  explains the test in great detail and someone may have a link to it.



      Growing Evidence that Drug-Sniffing Dogs Reflect Police Bias
      BY EARTH EROWID
      Jun 2011
      Erowid Extracts #20
      Citation:   Erowid E. "False Alerts: Growing Evidence that Drug-Sniffing Dogs Reflect Police Bias". Erowid Extracts. Jun 2011;20:6-7. Online edition: Erowid.org/freedom/police/police_article1.shtml
      Police in Washington State now Training Dogs not to Alert on Cannabis
      Update, August 2013: After Washington State passed a measure legalizing cannabis in November, 2012, the Washington State Patrol began training K9 dogs not to alert on cannabis. In a direct Tweet to Erowid, the Washington State Patrol (@wastatepatrol) clarified that "established dogs" are not being retrained "to avoid mj" because it "can't b done", but they are "simply not training our new dogs on that odor". See "WSP's new breed of drug-sniffing dog" - King5.com, Aug 12 2013

      Dogs trained to detect drugs, explosives, and human scents have become standard in police departments around the world. Courts in the United States generally accept law enforcement claims that a detection dog "alert" provides legal justification for bypassing 4th Amendment privacy protections against unreasonable search and seizure, and many other countries have similar rules. A dog alert is considered sufficient evidence to allow police to conduct a search without a warrant, permission, or additional probable cause. In that regard, a dog alert is the equivalent of an officer seeing a dead body or smelling cannabis. Given how much power the reaction of a drug dog and its handler's interpretations can have, it is striking how little research and data has been collected about their abilities and accuracy.

      False Positives
      A provocative research paper published in January 2011 showed that, rather than being neutral, police detection dogs alert where their handlers think they should. This research is one of only a handful of scientific attempts to test the validity of law enforcement claims of reliable detection.

      The study by Lit, Schweitzer, and Oberbauer caused a stir because, in their experiments to test detection dogs and their handlers, the researchers did not use any explosive or drug scents. Instead, they created a course inside a building and placed red paper markers on various objects to fool handlers into believing that marked locations contained scents and "Slim Jim" meat sticks as decoys to fool the dogs. Even with no legitimate targets present in the experiment, 85% of searches resulted in at least one alert by the handler-led detection dog. Only 21 out of the 144 police dog walk-throughs correctly reported no alerts by the dog, while 123 searches resulted in a combined total of 225 false alerts.

      Even with no legitimate targets present in the experiment, 85% of searches resulted in at least one alert by the handler-led detection dog.
      The red targets designed to trick human handlers resulted in the vast majority of false alerts and were twice as likely to cause false alerts as unwrapped Slim Jims not marked with red paper. The researchers concluded that "handler beliefs affect working dog outcomes, and human indication of scent location affects [...] alerts more than dog interest in a particular location."1

      Lit et al. compared the results of their experiment to the "Clever Hans" effect. Clever Hans was a horse in the early 20th century who was said to know how to count, but was later confirmed to be reacting to subtle cues from his handler and the audience. Lit et al. write, "The 'Clever Hans' effect has become a widely accepted example not only of the involuntary nature of cues provided by onlookers [...], but of the ability of animals to recognize and respond to subtle cues provided by those around them. However, an additional important consideration was the willingness of onlookers to assign a biased interpretation of what they saw according to their expectations."1 Issues of influence, expectation, and human interpretation of animal behavior become extremely problematic when Clever Hans is providing legal evidence used by law enforcement. To complicate matters, an actual alert isn't even required as an unethical handler can simply report an alert that didn't happen.

      Probable Cause with Four Legs
      Also in January 2011, the Chicago Tribune examined data about law enforcement searches collected to study racial profiling issues. They found that only 44% of alerts during K9 inspections of automobiles resulted in the discovery of illegal drugs or paraphernalia, with hit rates much lower for Hispanic drivers. An Illinois State Representative and former prosecutor, Jim Durkin, calls police dogs "probable cause with four legs" and has tried and failed to pass legislation that would create a set of standards for training detection dogs. It's astonishing that there isn't one already.2


      Extensive Australian Review
      In 2001, a judge in Sydney, Australia ruled in Police v. Darby that the use of drug-sniffing dogs, without other probable cause to suspect an individual, was illegal. In response, the New South Wales (NSW) legislature passed a law allowing the general use of drug detection dogs and created an oversight role for an organization to track and review the use of the dogs. In 2006, the NSW Ombudsman issued an extensive report based on two years of data representing over 10,000 drug dog alerts.3 The review found that illegal drugs were found in only 26% of all searches that were initiated after a handler indicated that a dog alerted on the subject. The report softens the dismal performance by suggesting the false positives could be the result of "residual scents": after being searched and found not to possess any contraband, 60% of dog-alerted suspects "admitted to having had some contact with cannabis or to being at a place where cannabis was smoked."3 This unsubstantiated excuse for their deplorable success rate is offered by police despite their claim that dogs are "not trained to detect the odour of cannabis smoke". Improbably, some of the "residual scent" admissions collected by police were "related to drug use that was weeks, months and sometimes more than a year prior to the indication by the drug detection dog."3 Obviously this sort of remote past contact should not lead a detection dog to alert and establish probable cause for a search for current evidence.

      Disappointingly, the Ombudsman found that handlers rewarded dogs regardless of whether or not their alert was accurate, violating both common sense and the stated policy of NSW law enforcement dog handlers.3

      Improbable Cause to Search
      The fact that a drug dog alert constitutes probable cause to initiate a full search of a person or car should logically require that it is reasonable to assume a dog alert indicates that evidence of a crime is present. If the majority of alerts are for "residual" scents that are days, weeks, or months old, any presumption of reasonableness vanishes. Despite evidence to the contrary, the NSW Police Association states that dog alerts provide reasonable cause to search because they exclusively indicate the "carriage or recent use of drugs".3 Similarly, the primary U.S. Supreme Court cases upholding drug dog searches state that the canine sniff "discloses only the presence or absence of narcotics, a contraband item".4 But, as Justice Souter stated in his dissent of the defining case Illinois v. Caballes (2005), "[t]he infallible dog, however, is a creature of legal fiction [...] their supposed infallibility is belied by judicial opinions describing well-trained animals sniffing and alerting with less than perfect accuracy, whether owing to errors by their handlers, the limitations of the dogs themselves, or even the pervasive contamination of currency by cocaine."5

      It is important to distinguish between two distinct types of detection practices: in some cases dogs are set to roam free in an area and alert when they detect a target scent, but in most cases dogs accompany their handler and are assigned to sniff a specific person or vehicle. It is in this latter case that the Clever Hans effect is much more likely to appear. It remains unknown and untested whether police dogs themselves might carry biases, even when not attended by a handler, which could result in inappropriately high false positives on patchouli-scented hippies, jersey-sporting inner city youth, or glowstick-carrying ravers. After all, if a dog receives subtle cues over the years from its handler that certain characteristics are "suspicious", it is all too easy to assume that the dog could internalize those biases.

      Change Afoot?
      There are small indications that the winds of change might be blowing in U.S. courts. In September 2010, an appellate court in Texas overturned the murder conviction of a man who had been found guilty based on a curious "scent lineup" technique. Three years after the murder, police had three dogs sniff clothing worn by the victim when he was killed. The police investigator then took "scent swabs" from six individuals and placed them in separate coffee cans. The investigator stated under oath that the dogs alerted when they sniffed the coffee can containing a swab taken from the defendant. The appeals court found that "scent discrimination lineups, when used alone or as primary evidence, are legally insufficient to support a conviction."6 Unfortunately, the appeals court did not throw out this unverified technique entirely and only found it could not be the sole evidence against a defendant. It seems that, at present, any technique involving a dog and a police officer is presumed accurate, and interpretation is left exclusively to the discretion of handlers.

      The research by Lit and colleagues revealing that dogs alert where their handlers think they should, the extensive review of drug detection dogs in New South Wales, and the lack of counter evidence have begun to persuasively demonstrate that detection dogs and their handlers are not able to neutrally detect evidence of illegal activity. Instead, these detection teams are influenced by the problematic biases that make necessary the 4th Amendment in the United States and privacy protections in other countries. If the alert of a detection dog is going to be used as evidence allowing searches, double-blind type field techniques must be developed that are proven to remove handler bias.

      References #
      Lit L, Schweitzer JB, Oberbauer AM. "Handler beliefs affect scent detection dog outcomes". Anim Cogn. May 2011; 14(3):387-94.
      Hinkel D, Mahr J. "Tribune analysis: Drug-sniffing dogs in traffic stops often wrong". Chicago Tribune. Jan 6, 2011.
      Australia. NSW Ombudsman. Review of the Police Powers (Drug Detection Dogs) Act 2001. NSW. Sep 14, 2006.
      United States v. Place. 462 U.S. 696 (1983).
      Illinois v. Caballes. 543 U.S. 405 (2005).
      Winfrey v. Texas. 323 S.W. 3d 87
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 10:52:25 AM
      @ Benice

      It's here:

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3078300/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 14, 2015, 11:08:25 AM
      Think very carefully about what you are saying here.

      How likely is it that in all the residences checked by the dogs, including the Murat villa ... the only place where an individual had shed blood was in the McCann holiday residence?

      Eddie goes in to find the scent he is trained to find. He doesn't go in first to sniff between every floor tile for any trace of blood. That is Keela's job. The dogs have to sniff really close to detect such minute blood. That's why the clothes have to be screened separately and Keela goes first to rule out blood. If Eddie alerts next it suggest cadaver scent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 14, 2015, 11:10:51 AM
      It is for Grime, not me, to explain why he kept directing and re-directing the dog back to one car (the car with find Madeleine stickers plastered all over the back windows).

      It is for Grime, not me, to explain why the tours of all other apartments were whistle-stop, and the tour of apartment 5a long-drawn-out and protracted.

      It is for Harrison, not me, to explain why he acknowledged the input of Grime and his dogs only in those inspections he recommended.
       
      I wish Alfred still had the link to the way bias can influence a handler's judgment and interaction with his dog.

      Indeed, in Grime's own profile, he makes reference to that very bias (in respect of other handlers, not himself ....)


      I think this may be the one you remember, Ferryman.

      When the suggestion is made that Martin Grime is being libelled or denigrated in any way ... the results obtained by this dog team should be borne in mind.

      The handler acted in perfectly good faith ... but he believed bodies had been deposited although in fact none were ... but because he believed, so did his dog and the dog delivered accordingly.



      Quote from: Alfred R Jones on January 07, 2015, 12:37:07 PM
      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5883.msg210424#msg210424

      I've got another good example of a conviction without a body.  The case of Thomas Quick, the Swedish serial killer who never was.  Zampo the cadaver dog alerted no less than 45 times in places that Quick claimed to have brought his victims' bodies.  The only slight problem was...he never actually committed any of the murders.  Ooops.

      http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/20/thomas-quick-bergwall-sweden-murder
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 14, 2015, 11:19:37 AM
      Eddie goes in to find the scent he is trained to find. He doesn't go in first to sniff between every floor tile for any trace of blood. That is Keela's job. The dogs have to sniff really close to detect such minute blood. That's why the clothes have to be screened separately and Keela goes first to rule out blood. If Eddie alerts next it suggest cadaver scent.

      There appears to have been little expectation on anyone's part that there might be cadaver scent anywhere other than apartment 5A and the Renault therefore the intensive attention given to both areas ... the dogs according to Ricardo Paiva being called in because of the heightened suspicions (did you ever!) arising from Dr McCann's alleged reporting of a dream.

      Remember Clever Hans?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 11:30:52 AM
      There appears to have been little expectation on anyone's part that there might be cadaver scent anywhere other than apartment 5A and the Renault therefore the intensive attention given to both areas ... the dogs according to Ricardo Paiva being called in because of the heightened suspicions (did you ever!) arising from Dr McCann's alleged reporting of a dream.

      Remember Clever Hans?

      Could we ever forget? As I recall Clever Hans formed part of a "set piece play" by a poster whose name escapes me for the moment  8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 11:39:01 AM
      Police dog handlers direct the search, they don't 'persuade' the dogs to alert.  @)(++(*

      I would use the word encourage
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 11:44:03 AM
      You are a star Anna ... that is precisely what I was after ...

      After the 'build up' given to him resulting from Praia da Luz where the Drs McCann were at that time arguidos; I think the expectations for Eddie were just too high and just because he didn't find the bodies allegedly buried in Haute de la Garenne didn't really mean he was 'unreliable'.

      It just meant that there were no bodies there to be found.


      Quote

      3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again, Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’.
      https://madeleinemccannthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/r-wiltshireoperationhavenredacted-20081112-jn.pdf

      Why don't you post the conclusion that the Wiltshire Police Investigation came to in this respect ? If you don't I will  8(0(*
      It casts a different light all together.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 14, 2015, 11:47:08 AM
      Why don't you post the conclusion that the Wiltshire Police Investigation came to in this respect ? If you don't I will  8(0(*
      It casts a different light all together.

      Why don't you do just that and give us your take on the matter ... it is after all a discussion forum ... not a one man comedy opportunity.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 12:04:35 PM
      Neither are dogs:

      5.6.19 The sample was logged into the ORAU system in the usual manner
      and, as in all cases, a sample of bone powder was drilled from the
      underside of the specimen using a tungsten carbide drill. The powder
      weighed 440 mg. The technician performing this procedure noted that
      the material did not behave as bone ordinarily would and did not have
      the texture that normal bone exhibits. The technician has a great deal
      of experience in the sampling of bone (almost 30 years). Because of
      this uncertainty, and as a precaution, a small amount of the sample
      was combusted to measure the % nitrogen remaining. % N is a good
      correlate for protein, which is dominated in bone by collagen, and the
      measurement of nitrogen offers a simple test concerning whether the
      sample is dateable or not. Low % N means that the material is
      essentially un-dateable using radiocarbon.
      5.6.20 X (ORAU) reported that the Jersey sample only had
      0.6 % N. Ordinarily this is too low to yield extractable collagen of any
      quality. Despite our concerns, X requested that a fuller
      chemical treatment be undertaken, in an attempt to produce a
      result, but although some material was extracted it was demonstrably
      not collagenous based on the analysis of the texture of the material,
      the C:N atomic ratios and the similarly significant lack of nitrogen, so
      the sample was formally failed and the States of Jersey Police notified.
      5.6.21 A further analysis of the bone sample later the following week by
      X and X (British Museum faunal specialist
      and one of our collaborators in work undertaken in the ORAU)
      concluded that the sample was not in fact bone, but was almost
      certainly wood. It seemed surprising to us that the material could be
      so confidently identified by X , and particularly that it could
      Page 255 of 383




      Media Highly Confidential – Personal Information
      be determined to be an infant specimen. We informed X of
      our concerns shortly afterwards, by phone and e-mail. We stand by our
      original assessment. We suggest that the curvature of the material
      may have had something to do with the misidentification. We
      think it appears to be more like part of a large seed casing, or part of
      something like a small piece of coconut. Certainly, the density of the
      material is most unlike bone, it is too light. Our conclusion is that this
      sample is: a) not bone and b) not human. We are very surprised that
      the forensic archaeologist could be so confident and differ in X
      identification. We suggested at the time that a further opinion would be
      required, but this not considered by X . A further
      analysis of the bone structure under a suitable microscope would
      confirm the situation rapidly.


      I don't have a problem with the fact that the anthropologist initially considered the fragment to potentially be a fragment of a child's skull - that is the type of evidence that they were looking for.

      Eddie had alerted in that area, and they found this fragment... so it might have been one, hence the decision to retain it for further analysis.

      A possibility that I'd thought of is that, when it was found, it might have been heavier due to having absorbed ambient humidity... and the fact that it later appeared too light to the bone handler technician was because it had since had time to dry out.

      My main problem is that the police shouldn't have fuelled media speculation until full tests had been done (which isn't her fault).

      It's also possible that Eddie wasn't reacting to the coconut itself, but to some interesting aroma deposited near it - which may have been recent or ancient, relevant or not.

      The bottom line is that the so-called "evidence" of murder found.... doesn't appear to have existed. Or at least not within the time scope of the investigation.

      Another gripe that I have over that fiasco is that once the "murder" evidence was debunked, it could have undermined the credibility of the victims concerning the very real abuse that some of those poor kids were subjected to.







      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 14, 2015, 12:18:15 PM
      Why don't you do just that and give us your take on the matter ... it is after all a discussion forum ... not a one man comedy opportunity.
      8((()*/ well said!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 12:18:23 PM
      Why don't you do just that and give us your take on the matter ... it is after all a discussion forum ... not a one man comedy opportunity.

      My take is that Officer X was just one person giving evidence to an inquiry. He also said the excavations were not justified 3.10.17. His opinions do not seem to have been unequivocally upheld by the inquiries conclusions.  If one is going to use an official inquiry as the basis for an argument then one would have thought the conclusions of that inquiry would be the better base rather than selective choices from witness opinions.

      snip>>>>
      Conclusion
      3.10.18
      There are two significant issues in relation to the search of Haut de la Garenne. Firstly, whether the search was justified and secondly, whether CO POWER supervised the decision-making process, given the significance of the search and what it implied about Operation Rectangle.
      3.1019
      Operation Haven concludes that the decision to dig at Haut de la Garenne was questionable. DCO HARPER was not trained to an acceptable level and, in the case of CO POWER, we note his own admission that he had no current training ‘in the oversight of such investigations’.
      Nevertheless, this Inquiry can conceive why, in all circumstances, it may have been considered reasonable to do so. We do not raise formal criticism of DCO HARPER or CO POWER for their decision to do so. We do point out however, that the decision to search having been made, the risks in terms of public and media speculation about police activity, if reported, should have been predicted and carefully planned for. <<<<< snip

      I suppose one could also point out that this particular "fiasco" did wind up with a result at a cost of only £7MM.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 12:19:54 PM
       8(0(*
      8((()*/ well said!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2015, 12:39:35 PM
      It is for Grime, not me, to explain why he kept directing and re-directing the dog back to one car (the car with find Madeleine stickers plastered all over the back windows).

      It is for Grime, not me, to explain why the tours of all other apartments were whistle-stop, and the tour of apartment 5a long-drawn-out and protracted.

      It is for Harrison, not me, to explain why he acknowledged the input of Grime and his dogs only in those inspections he recommended.
       
      I wish Alfred still had the link to the way bias can influence a handler's judgment and interaction with his dog.

      Indeed, in Grime's own profile, he makes reference to that very bias (in respect of other handlers, not himself ....)

      Grime was the professional dog trainer and handler and no doubt he directed the search in the same way he directed all his searches. He has no need to explain his methods to you or anyone else. His dogs got results.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 14, 2015, 12:45:04 PM
      Grime was the professional dog trainer and handler and no doubt he directed the search in the same way he directed all his searches. He has no need to explain his methods to you or anyone else. His dogs got results.
      One could no doubt  say the same about Zampo and his handler both of whom continued to work despite the numerous false alerts in the Thomas Quick case. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 14, 2015, 12:47:40 PM
      My take is that Officer X was just one person giving evidence to an inquiry. He also said the excavations were not justified 3.10.17. His opinions do not seem to have been unequivocally upheld by the inquiries conclusions.  If one is going to use an official inquiry as the basis for an argument then one would have thought the conclusions of that inquiry would be the better base rather than selective choices from witness opinions.

      snip>>>>
      Conclusion
      3.10.18
      There are two significant issues in relation to the search of Haut de la Garenne. Firstly, whether the search was justified and secondly, whether CO POWER supervised the decision-making process, given the significance of the search and what it implied about Operation Rectangle.
      3.1019
      Operation Haven concludes that the decision to dig at Haut de la Garenne was questionable. DCO HARPER was not trained to an acceptable level and, in the case of CO POWER, we note his own admission that he had no current training ‘in the oversight of such investigations’.
      Nevertheless, this Inquiry can conceive why, in all circumstances, it may have been considered reasonable to do so. We do not raise formal criticism of DCO HARPER or CO POWER for their decision to do so. We do point out however, that the decision to search having been made, the risks in terms of public and media speculation about police activity, if reported, should have been predicted and carefully planned for. <<<<< snip

      I suppose one could also point out that this particular "fiasco" did wind up with a result at a cost of only £7MM.


      "If one is going to use an official inquiry as the basis for an argument then one would have thought the conclusions of that inquiry would be the better base rather than selective choices from witness opinions."


      Perhaps that is an admonition which should be borne in mind when considering the Attorney General's Report in Madeleine McCann's case.
      Unfortunately sceptics tend to get stuck either at the beginning or the middle perhaps because the conclusions do not fit theirs or Mr Amaral's or their unfounded belief in the capabilities of the dogs.

      Unqualified reliance on what they had been told the dogs' would bring to the case in Praia da Luz and Haute de la Garenne had an undue influence on the conduct of both cases by the lead investigators.

      Both cases were unqualified disasters and the dogs, through no fault of theirs, were the catalyst for that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 12:51:59 PM
      Eddie goes in to find the scent he is trained to find. He doesn't go in first to sniff between every floor tile for any trace of blood. That is Keela's job. The dogs have to sniff really close to detect such minute blood. That's why the clothes have to be screened separately and Keela goes first to rule out blood. If Eddie alerts next it suggest cadaver scent.

      Did you ever read the link (I believe Anna?) produced a while back of all the people besides Paul Anthony Gordon (who cut himself shaving and paced the whole apartment trying to stem the flow of blood for 45 minutes) to bleed in apartment 5a?

      And the only inspection where Keela went first was in the gym.

      The mantra goes that, generally, Eddie is the first to be deployed, then Keela afterwards ....

      Actually, I'm not convinced Keela and Eddie were deployed on the same case before PdL ....



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 01:06:35 PM
      Grime was the professional dog trainer and handler and no doubt he directed the search in the same way he directed all his searches. He has no need to explain his methods to you or anyone else. His dogs got results.

      The dogs found nothing of interest ... That isn't their fault there was nothing to find
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 01:08:45 PM

      "If one is going to use an official inquiry as the basis for an argument then one would have thought the conclusions of that inquiry would be the better base rather than selective choices from witness opinions."


      Perhaps that is an admonition which should be borne in mind when considering the Attorney General's Report in Madeleine McCann's case.
      Unfortunately sceptics tend to get stuck either at the beginning or the middle perhaps because the conclusions do not fit theirs or Mr Amaral's or their unfounded belief in the capabilities of the dogs.

      Unqualified reliance on what they had been told the dogs' would bring to the case in Praia da Luz and Haute de la Garenne had an undue influence on the conduct of both cases by the lead investigators.

      Both cases were unqualified disasters and the dogs, through no fault of theirs, were the catalyst for that.

      1.Oh but I agree. Perhaps you will be kind enough to post a link to it so we can all see what it said rather than what posters say it said. Whatever it said it should be borne in mind it remains the ruling document in the case until superseded by another Portuguese judicial document.
      2. In the case of Haute de la Garenne the official inquiry by Wiltshire Police would appear not to support your opinion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 01:15:21 PM

      The dogs found nothing of interest ... That isn't their fault there was nothing to find

       &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

      The dogs responded to the presence of certain compounds.

      The samples taken were inconclusive as regards forensics.

      It does not mean there was nothing to find.

      Now who was it who contaminated the crime scene ?

      Try being precise
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 14, 2015, 01:19:54 PM
      Did you ever read the link (I believe Anna?) produced a while back of all the people besides Paul Anthony Gordon (who cut himself shaving and paced the whole apartment trying to stem the flow of blood for 45 minutes) to bleed in apartment 5a?

      And the only inspection where Keela went first was in the gym.

      The mantra goes that, generally, Eddie is the first to be deployed, then Keela afterwards ....

      Actually, I'm not convinced Keela and Eddie were deployed on the same case before PdL ....

      45 minutes  @)(++(* Keela only checked where Eddie alerts so behind the sofa and bedroom/wardrobe.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 01:22:36 PM
      Did you ever read the link (I believe Anna?) produced a while back of all the people besides Paul Anthony Gordon (who cut himself shaving and paced the whole apartment trying to stem the flow of blood for 45 minutes) to bleed in apartment 5a?

      And the only inspection where Keela went first was in the gym.

      The mantra goes that, generally, Eddie is the first to be deployed, then Keela afterwards ....

      Actually, I'm not convinced Keela and Eddie were deployed on the same case before PdL ....

      'You're not convinced'

      So what. 8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2015, 01:24:27 PM

      The dogs found nothing of interest ... That isn't their fault there was nothing to find

      They didn't find anything which could be used in evidence. It doesn't mean their findings weren't interesting though.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 01:29:24 PM
      45 minutes  @)(++(* Keela only checked where Eddie alerts so behind the sofa and bedroom/wardrobe.

      There were no other incidents whilst we were in Portugal that were noteworthy, apart from this man I have just described, however there was an occasion that I cut myself whilst shaving in the bathroom. I would say that the cut bled for about 45 minutes and that it took some time for the cut to stop bleeding, during which time I walked around the apartment with bits of paper trying to stem the flow of blood. As far as I know, apart from this nobody else cut themselves nor died in the apartment.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 01:33:24 PM
      My take is that Officer X was just one person giving evidence to an inquiry. He also said the excavations were not justified 3.10.17. His opinions do not seem to have been unequivocally upheld by the inquiries conclusions.  If one is going to use an official inquiry as the basis for an argument then one would have thought the conclusions of that inquiry would be the better base rather than selective choices from witness opinions.

      snip>>>>
      Conclusion
      3.10.18
      There are two significant issues in relation to the search of Haut de la Garenne. Firstly, whether the search was justified and secondly, whether CO POWER supervised the decision-making process, given the significance of the search and what it implied about Operation Rectangle.
      3.1019
      Operation Haven concludes that the decision to dig at Haut de la Garenne was questionable. DCO HARPER was not trained to an acceptable level and, in the case of CO POWER, we note his own admission that he had no current training ‘in the oversight of such investigations’.
      Nevertheless, this Inquiry can conceive why, in all circumstances, it may have been considered reasonable to do so. We do not raise formal criticism of DCO HARPER or CO POWER for their decision to do so. We do point out however, that the decision to search having been made, the risks in terms of public and media speculation about police activity, if reported, should have been predicted and carefully planned for. <<<<< snip

      I suppose one could also point out that this particular "fiasco" did wind up with a result at a cost of only £7MM.

      The police were investigating a major abuse issue. Then there were allegations of murder. I agree that these allegations of murder also needed to be investigated.

      I'd highlight a point that you didn't:

      We do point out however, that the decision to search having been made, the risks in terms of public and media speculation about police activity, if reported, should have been predicted and carefully planned for.

      The fiasco was - in part - the lack of experience, procedures, financial decisions, etc., plus the spiralling media frenzy and the consequent difficulty in backing down from half-baked leaks.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 01:37:08 PM
      Grime was the professional dog trainer and handler and no doubt he directed the search in the same way he directed all his searches. He has no need to explain his methods to you or anyone else. His dogs got results.

      No doubt. Do we have a list of them?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 01:41:45 PM
      &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

      The dogs responded to the presence of certain compounds.

      The samples taken were inconclusive as regards forensics.

      It does not mean there was nothing to find.

      Now who was it who contaminated the crime scene ?

      Try being precise

      There is no confirmation from grime that the alerts were to cadaverine ..... In reality we do not have a clue what the alerts were to
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 01:51:23 PM
      There were no other incidents whilst we were in Portugal that were noteworthy, apart from this man I have just described, however there was an occasion that I cut myself whilst shaving in the bathroom. I would say that the cut bled for about 45 minutes and that it took some time for the cut to stop bleeding, during which time I walked around the apartment with bits of paper trying to stem the flow of blood. As far as I know, apart from this nobody else cut themselves nor died in the apartment.

      I find 45 minutes may be a mistake, unless the chap suffers from haemophilia. Not that it changes anything in reality as wandering around with potential blood drops from a shaving incident for even 4-5 minutes is quite long.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 14, 2015, 01:57:51 PM
      I find 45 minutes may be a mistake, unless the chap suffers from haemophilia. Not that it changes anything in reality as wandering around with potential blood drops from a shaving incident for even 4-5 minutes is quite long.

      I sliced a lump out of my thumb with a sliver of broken tiling back along.  The blood soaked through wads of toilet paper and dripped all over the floor for nearly an hour.
      And I am not a great bleeder.  At least not in that sense.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 01:59:34 PM
      There is no confirmation from grime that the alerts were to cadaverine ..... In reality we do not have a clue what the alerts were to

      The dogs alert to what they are trained to detect.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 14, 2015, 02:00:08 PM
      I find 45 minutes may be a mistake, unless the chap suffers from haemophilia. Not that it changes anything in reality as wandering around with potential blood drops from a shaving incident for even 4-5 minutes is quite long.

      Very possibly is a mistake as you say, Carana.
       However my boys and hubby had a problem stopping the bleeding and would walk about with bits of tissue on their faces to try and stop it. Ever cut your leg when shaving?

      Shaving cuts
      http://www.symptomfind.com/health/stop-shaving-cut-bleeding/

      Okay, so I cut myself on the chin this morning. Usually I can stop it with a dab of deoderant but this one has been bleeding like a member of the Russian Royal Family all day. I've had to resort to putting a band aid on for now (thank goodness I didn't have to go out anywhere today) but what is your favourite measure to stop the gore?


      http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/294361-Shaving-cut-won-t-stop-bleeding

      Cut myself shaving and it wont stop bleeding. Its been like an hour now
      http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=1266109

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 02:07:19 PM
      If the observation of being in scent already at front door were correct would that mean an interval significantly longer than the minimum?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 02:10:41 PM
      The dogs alert to what they are trained to detect.

      So are you saying cadaverine was detected....because Grime doesn't
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 02:19:47 PM
      The police were investigating a major abuse issue. Then there were allegations of murder. I agree that these allegations of murder also needed to be investigated.

      I'd highlight a point that you didn't:

      We do point out however, that the decision to search having been made, the risks in terms of public and media speculation about police activity, if reported, should have been predicted and carefully planned for.

      The fiasco was - in part - the lack of experience, procedures, financial decisions, etc., plus the spiralling media frenzy and the consequent difficulty in backing down from half-baked leaks.

      Having made oblique reference to it in my post 12:59pm yesterday I did not think it worth labouring the point  8(0(*
      What I said then however was : If you read the 383 page report posted by Brietta, Grime and his dogs don't take up much space. The thrust of the issue seems to be p**s poor media management by two officers.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2015, 02:25:31 PM
      There were no other incidents whilst we were in Portugal that were noteworthy, apart from this man I have just described, however there was an occasion that I cut myself whilst shaving in the bathroom. I would say that the cut bled for about 45 minutes and that it took some time for the cut to stop bleeding, during which time I walked around the apartment with bits of paper trying to stem the flow of blood. As far as I know, apart from this nobody else cut themselves nor died in the apartment.

      Did he crouch behind the couch while bleeding I wonder? If not, this is of no interest.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 02:33:04 PM
      If the observation of being in scent already at front door were correct would that mean an interval significantly longer than the minimum?

      It was a holiday flat (once a residential flat, apparently).
      No one knows the origin of the furniture, no one knows what accidents may have happened in that flat over time.

      The flat had been rented out 4 times since the disappearance... with various other people having had access.

      It's impossible to know what Eddie could have been reacting to.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 14, 2015, 02:37:57 PM
      So are you saying cadaverine was detected....because Grime doesn't


      He doesn't, but in his professional opinion it was likely to be there;


      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant
      . This does not however
      suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
      number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
      reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
      corroborating evidence.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 02:41:56 PM
      Did he crouch behind the couch while bleeding I wonder? If not, this is of no interest.

      What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner

      (Martin Grime).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 02:42:52 PM
      Having made oblique reference to it in my post 12:59pm yesterday I did not think it worth labouring the point  8(0(*
      What I said then however was : If you read the 383 page report posted by Brietta, Grime and his dogs don't take up much space. The thrust of the issue seems to be p**s poor media management by two officers.

      Media management is certainly one issue... in both cases (IMO), but not the only one.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 02:46:38 PM
      Did he crouch behind the couch while bleeding I wonder? If not, this is of no interest.

      There was no evidence found behind the couch... aside from DNA most likely belonging to one of the PT forensic officers (cf Lowe).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 14, 2015, 02:54:26 PM
      It was a holiday flat (once a residential flat, apparently).
      No one knows the origin of the furniture, no one knows what accidents may have happened in that flat over time.

      The flat had been rented out 4 times since the disappearance... with various other people having had access.

      It's impossible to know what Eddie could have been reacting to.

      The dogs found evidence of death all connected to the same family. Nobody has found any evidence of her being alive and the prime suspect wasn't carrying a screaming abducted child.

      He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual.
      — Having already seen various photographs of MADELEINE and televised images, states that the child who was carried by the individual could have been her. He cannot state this as fact but is convinced that it could have been MADELEINE, also the opinion shared by his family.

      Questioned, states that the individual did not speak nor did the child as she was sleeping deeply.

      Questioned, says that the individual did not speak nor did the child as she was in a deep sleep.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

      'Oh, is she asleep?'  &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 03:05:12 PM
      The dogs found evidence of death all connected to the same family. Nobody has found any evidence of her being alive and the prime suspect wasn't carrying a screaming abducted child.

      He adds that he did not hold the child in a comfortable position, suggesting [the carrying] not being habitual.
      — Having already seen various photographs of MADELEINE and televised images, states that the child who was carried by the individual could have been her. He cannot state this as fact but is convinced that it could have been MADELEINE, also the opinion shared by his family.

      Questioned, states that the individual did not speak nor did the child as she was sleeping deeply.

      Questioned, says that the individual did not speak nor did the child as she was in a deep sleep.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

      'Oh, is she asleep?'  &%+((£


      What "evidence of death" did anyone find?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 03:07:18 PM
      Media management is certainly one issue... in both cases (IMO), but not the only one.

      In the Jersey case the SIO seemingly being allowed to run around inadequately supervised, like the Wild Man of Borneo, was detrimental. It should not, though, be forgotten there was a result in the Jersey case. The fact that Mr Grime and his dawgs merit little more than a page in a report approaching 400 pages would tend to put his role in this case in perspective.   
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 03:10:50 PM
      In the Jersey case the SIO seemingly being allowed to run around inadequately supervised, like the Wild Man of Borneo, was detrimental. It should not, though, be forgotten there was a result in the Jersey case. The fact that Mr Grime and his dawgs merit little more than a page in a report approaching 400 pages would tend to put his role in this case in perspective.

      93 grand is not a bad pay-off for a bit-part ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 14, 2015, 03:14:35 PM
      93 grand is not a bad pay-off for a bit-part ....

      Especially since Martin Grime seems to have spent most of his time driving Mr Harper around.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 03:17:39 PM
      What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner

      (Martin Grime).

      Something a bit odd about that is that residual scent would be in permeable materials... yet the dog was reacting to the scent cone, presumably of an airflow indicating the direction of that corner of the bedroom.

      Grime has only ever stated that Keela would only react in the physical presence of blood, but Eddie could have sniffed whatever was within his training parameters (which includes dried blood) without the physical source being present.

      Sooo... someone has to explain to me in very simple terms why Eddie could not have been reacting to anything that had blood on it that had been removed just prior to the inspection.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 03:26:07 PM
      In the Jersey case the SIO seemingly being allowed to run around inadequately supervised, like the Wild Man of Borneo, was detrimental. It should not, though, be forgotten there was a result in the Jersey case. The fact that Mr Grime and his dawgs merit little more than a page in a report approaching 400 pages would tend to put his role in this case in perspective.

      Hmmmm.

      A casual search for just "dog" in that report highlights 21 pages of that report. I suppose I could check through all of them to check if they all related to the same dog....

      In the meantime, perhaps you'd have a glance through this:

      http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20OperationRectangleReviewUseResources%20201005%20BDO.pdf

      and

      http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/ScrutinyReviewSubmissions/Submission%20-%20Issues%20surrounding%20the%20Review%20of%20Financial%20Management%20of%20Operation%20Rectangle%20-%20BDO%20Alto%20-%2012%20July%202011.pdf
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 03:35:01 PM
      So are you saying cadaverine was detected....because Grime doesn't


      Did Grime perform the forensic tests ?

      So what did the dogs detect then ?

      Was it hot air ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 03:41:58 PM
      Something a bit odd about that is that residual scent would be in permeable materials... yet the dog was reacting to the scent cone, presumably of an airflow indicating the direction of that corner of the bedroom.

      Grime has only ever stated that Keela would only react in the physical presence of blood, but Eddie could have sniffed whatever was within his training parameters (which includes dried blood) without the physical source being present.

      Sooo... someone has to explain to me in very simple terms why Eddie could not have been reacting to anything that had blood on it that had been removed just prior to the inspection.

      Are you familiar with process of physical adsorption ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 03:45:05 PM
      Are you familiar with process of physical adsorption ?

      No. Did Grime explain that possibility in his report?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 03:49:00 PM
      It was a holiday flat (once a residential flat, apparently).
      No one knows the origin of the furniture, no one knows what accidents may have happened in that flat over time.

      The flat had been rented out 4 times since the disappearance... with various other people having had access.

      It's impossible to know what Eddie could have been reacting to.


      Something a bit odd about that is that residual scent would be in permeable materials... yet the dog was reacting to the scent cone, presumably of an airflow indicating the direction of that corner of the bedroom.

      Grime has only ever stated that Keela would only react in the physical presence of blood, but Eddie could have sniffed whatever was within his training parameters (which includes dried blood) without the physical source being present.

      Sooo... someone has to explain to me in very simple terms why Eddie could not have been reacting to anything that had blood on it that had been removed just prior to the inspection.

      Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 03:51:53 PM
      No. Did Grime explain that possibility in his report?


      I'm not sure on that.

      It would depend on how extensive his knowledge is of the possible compounds being detected, and onto what 'surfaces' they could be adsorbed on.

      Likewise, how long any would be retained would depend on several other key factors.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 04:10:50 PM

      I'm not sure on that.

      It would depend on how extensive his knowledge is of the possible compounds being detected, and onto what 'surfaces' they could be adsorbed on.

      Likewise, how long any would be retained would depend on several other key factors.

      I haven't found anything to indicate that Grime had even mentioned the concept of adsorption, let alone how long any such molecules (within a short potential timeframe of the presence of a corpse) could have been retained in a flat with its particular history of occupancy.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 04:27:26 PM
      93 grand is not a bad pay-off for a bit-part ....
      I would say £93k in £6.6 MM is pretty small beer. In me 'ead that's less than 1.5% ?.
      Even so that was one of the beefs of CO Power but he never followed it through as the report shows.
      If however you believe that Grime was the spider at the centre of the web calling all the shots read the report and see what the conclusions are.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 04:43:16 PM
      If A = last seen, B = min alertable time, C = time move, and A and B are known, find C.
      C > A+B.
      Please excuse the complicated maths.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 04:44:54 PM
      Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

      I'm thinking of a bloodied plaster / sock, whatever, that could have been removed from a previous occupant prior to the inspection.

      Is it likely that any of the PJ inspectors could have planted any such object and removed it just prior to the inspection in the hope that Eddie would react?

      Personally, I doubt it unless Grime or Harrison had explained to them verbally in a briefing prior to the inspection that Eddie could react to the residual scent of blood.

      If that had been the case, Amaral would certainly have been harping on about cleaned blood stains in the bedroom - which he doesn't appear to have done.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 05:03:31 PM

      Did Grime perform the forensic tests ?

      So what did the dogs detect then ?

      Was it hot air ?
      If grime says that the alerts suggest cadaverine then he doesn't know for sure... That's it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 05:51:40 PM
      Hmmmm.

      A casual search for just "dog" in that report highlights 21 pages of that report. I suppose I could check through all of them to check if they all related to the same dog....

      In the meantime, perhaps you'd have a glance through this:

      http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20OperationRectangleReviewUseResources%20201005%20BDO.pdf

      and

      http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/ScrutinyReviewSubmissions/Submission%20-%20Issues%20surrounding%20the%20Review%20of%20Financial%20Management%20of%20Operation%20Rectangle%20-%20BDO%20Alto%20-%2012%20July%202011.pdf

      The BDO Report "Trigger Event 1" is at variance with the findings of the Wiltshire Police Inquiry so who do we choose to believe?
      Any road up in The Wiltshire Police Report pretty much everything of significance to do with Mr Grime is in section 3.10.
      The words "Grime" and "dog" do appear elsewhere for example in one sentence in section 2.41.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 06:19:13 PM
      Wherever Eddie barked, they dug, in expectation of finding bodies.

      And they found none.

      But led to interesting speculation about Eddie's abilities to sniff death through concrete (and the like).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 06:25:11 PM
      If grime says that the alerts suggest cadaverine then he doesn't know for sure... That's it

      When did Grime conduct the forensic analysis dave ?

      The dogs were trained to detect certain compounds, the Diammine is just on of those associated with a body.

      I assume Gas CHromatography was used to in the forensic analysis.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 06:40:21 PM
      When did Grime conduct the forensic analysis dave ?

      The dogs were trained to detect certain compounds, the Diammine is just on of those associated with a body.

      I assume Gas CHromatography was used to in the forensic analysis.

      The presence of cadaver one was not confirmed .....fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 14, 2015, 06:58:52 PM
      Wherever Eddie barked, they dug, in expectation of finding bodies.

      And they found none.

      But led to interesting speculation about Eddie's abilities to sniff death through concrete (and the like).

      Collagen is found in mammals not coconut.

      (https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-gURm_7j3Hbc%2FVIhhETCNn2I%2FAAAAAAAAH9A%2F7UetjVtIXWY%2Fs1600%2FTortureCham.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image%2F*)

      "One chamber contained a concrete bathtub splattered with blood."

      Forensic scientists searching the cellars, where victims have told them they were taken to be abused, have already uncovered 65 milk teeth and up to 100 pieces of bone that they say appear to have been burned. An intact adenoid bone, from the ear of a child, has also been found, it has been reported.

      https://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2008/07/14/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 07:04:44 PM
      I'm thinking of a bloodied plaster / sock, whatever, that could have been removed from a previous occupant prior to the inspection.

      Is it likely that any of the PJ inspectors could have planted any such object and removed it just prior to the inspection in the hope that Eddie would react?

      Personally, I doubt it unless Grime or Harrison had explained to them verbally in a briefing prior to the inspection that Eddie could react to the residual scent of blood.

      If that had been the case, Amaral would certainly have been harping on about cleaned blood stains in the bedroom - which he doesn't appear to have done.

      Where did you read that?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 07:06:56 PM
      Collagen is found in mammals not coconut.



      So that being the case, why did Eddie react to a coconut?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 07:09:53 PM
      Eddie showed the same lack of interest in the Renault after 30 seconds as he did to the other cars.   If it wasn't for the repeated call-backs that would have been an end to it IMO.     It was Martin Grime's behaviour which changed at the Renault - not Eddies.   He did not repeatedly call Eddie back to any other car.

      No way do I think MG is a fraud but I do not rule out the possibility of unconscious cueing -  and that is not a slur on MG  - as the handler does not know it is happening.    And it certainly is NOT a crime.

      IMO Martin Grime is a brilliant dog trainer, but he is still human and therefore it is not impossible that this may have happened.   
       
      This 'job' was under in the world's spotlight and he was about to embark on his own business where Eddie and Keela would be his livelihood.    That must have involved a considerable amount of extra  pressure to make sure that he 'got it right'.         It certainly wasn't just another day at the office for him IMO, which it would have been had he been staying in the police service IMO.

      IMO he may have inadvertently and unconsciously over-egged the pudding.

      I repeat that is not a crime, but something which does happen.   Tests have proved 'unconscious cueing' to be a fact -  and something which can happen to perfectly decent and honest police dog handlers.

      How can you say that repeatedly calling the dog back to one car and no other is unconscious cueing? That doesn't make sense.
      BTW, the video is edited, the original is hours longer, so here , you can't be certain how all cars  were inspected.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 07:13:20 PM
      Think very carefully about what you are saying here.

      How likely is it that in all the residences checked by the dogs, including the Murat villa ... the only place where an individual had shed blood was in the McCann holiday residence?

      Eddie was not sent in to detect blood.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 07:15:36 PM
      Eddie was not sent in to detect blood.

      Irrelevant.

      You can't ask a dog to switch off from that they are trained to detect unless you desensitise the dog to that scent.

      Both Grime and Harrison make plain Eddie would react to blood.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 07:19:39 PM
      Did you ever read the link (I believe Anna?) produced a while back of all the people besides Paul Anthony Gordon (who cut himself shaving and paced the whole apartment trying to stem the flow of blood for 45 minutes) to bleed in apartment 5a?

      And the only inspection where Keela went first was in the gym.

      The mantra goes that, generally, Eddie is the first to be deployed, then Keela afterwards ....

      Actually, I'm not convinced Keela and Eddie were deployed on the same case before PdL ....

      Was Paul Gordon's DNA matched?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 07:21:55 PM
      Irrelevant.

      You can't ask a dog to switch off from that they are trained to detect unless you desensitise the dog to that scent.

      Both Grime and Harrison make plain Eddie would react to blood.

      But not microscopic or residual scent or which Carana has suggested.?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 07:23:09 PM
      Was Paul Gordon's DNA matched?

      No idea.

      But there was some DNA they couldn't identify.  Perhaps some of it was his.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 07:25:33 PM
      But not microscopic or residual scent or which Carana has suggested.?

      There was a link given on this board way back to all the people (besides Mr Gordon) who did, or might have, bled in apartment 5a.

      The miracle is that, apparently, no one bled in any of the other apartments ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 07:32:15 PM
      There was a link given on this board way back to all the people (besides Mr Gordon) who did, or might have, bled in apartment 5a.

      The miracle is that, apparently, no one bled in any of the other apartments ....

      Were they asked? If they did and it was cleaned/washed away, would Eddie have alerted ? And By miracle, is what you really mean, you believe it was planted?

      No idea.

      But there was some DNA they couldn't identify.  Perhaps some of it was his.

      They had the Gordon family dna and statements so surprising that it wasn't.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 07:33:40 PM
      There was a link given on this board way back to all the people (besides Mr Gordon) who did, or might have, bled in apartment 5a.

      The miracle is that, apparently, no one bled in any of the other apartments ....

      For you ferryman and those others who ignore evidence, knowledge and logic which doesn't suit your agenda.


      '   Specialist dogs are demonstrably reliable.

      In the Oesterhelweg et al 1998 study, it was demonstrated that the overall accuracy of the dogs they tested was 98%

      Controlled studies like these are important as they are able, amongst other things, to identify false negatives and positives, something which is very difficult to do in the field. In the Zapata case, for example, the judge originally excluded the dog evidence as he decided that in tests conducted, where no alert had been signalled by the dog, no human had gone over the ground and checked there was nothing there for the dog to find. He therefore declared these ''false negatives'', which is nonsense. Hence studies which identify genuine false positives and negatives are vital.

      Dogs trained to detect chemical changes in urine consistent with bladder cancer are able to do so with greater accuracy than laboratory tests, a pattern repeated with dogs trained to detect other medical problems. Dogs can alert to the presence of numerous malignant changes, possibly as a result of necrosis associated with the tumour, and can even signal to people with epilepsy that a seizure is imminent.

      Humans do have these abilities - they are just nowhere near as pronounced as in dogs. Experienced nurses quickly learn to detect certain bacterial wound infections by their distinctive odour, for example.

      If a dog gives an alert, it is alerting to the scent. The scent may be residual, and there may be no remains present to find, but is that a false alert? No, of course it isn't. It is alerting to something which was present and has now gone.

      Because it is not possible to completely eliminate the risk of false positive alerts and unconscious signalling by handlers, an uncorroborated alert is unlikely to be considered sufficient to present in evidence, but may still add to the weight of circumstantial evidence.

      The twisting and whining by McCann supporters, and by the McCanns themselves who have made some outrageous statements about Cadaver dogs in general and Mr Grime in particular, does them no favours.

      The 'coconut shell' debacle is another example of this hysteria. ''Eddie found a coconut!'' they shriek.
      No.

      Eddie alerted to the ground. A forensic anthropologist identified a piece of what looked like it might be human skull. This is not uncommon, as if you field walk any ploughed field in the uk you are likely to find two things - medieval pottery and pieces of ancient human bone. Subsequent tests suggested it was probably a piece of seed pod or shell, but Eddie alerted to the ground, or earth adherent to the shell, not the shell itself.

      The dog alerts in PdL provided what Redwood would have called ''an investigative opportunity''
      It will be interesting to see if, should another suspect ever emerge, the McCann supporters will be so keen to dismiss multiple uncorroborated alerts from their property   '
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 07:36:58 PM
      From davel earlier..............


      ''There is no confirmation from grime that the alerts were to cadaverine ..... In reality we do not have a clue what the alerts were to''

      and a response from another poster to davel, in addition to my earlier ones.

      '  Well, you clearly don't. Grime's dogs were not trained to alert to Cadaverine. Cadaverine is a volatile compound which is just one of the molecules which contributes to cadaver odour.

      His dogs were trained to alert to cadaver odour. Therefore, a positive alert signals the presence of cadaver odour.

      It is possible to ''collect'' a scent from the air and analyse the constituent molecules but this was not attempted here'
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 07:47:13 PM
      Wherever Eddie barked, they dug, in expectation of finding bodies.

      And they found none.

      But led to interesting speculation about Eddie's abilities to sniff death through concrete (and the like).

      That view would not seem to be borne out by the inquiry:
      3.10.2
      It is apparent from DCO HARPER’s policy book entries relating to the search of Haut de la Garenne that the rationale he developed to justify the search (in particular the full scale dig inside the premises) is based upon historic accounts from witnesses of varying reliability. However, Decision 13 of the Search Policy Book also makes reference to the Ground Penetrating Radar confirmation of anomalies under the floor and ‘dog indications’

      3.10.8
      On 11 February 2008, a string of e-mails between the States of
      Jersey Police Forensic Service Manager,
      X , and DCO HARPER, reflect X attempts to persuade him to search the inside of Haut de la Garenne. DCO HARPER is adamant in his reply that they will not search that area as ‘there is not a shred of intelligence or evidence to suggest that anything untoward took place in any of the rooms. We would be ‘fishing’.
      3.10.9
      It appears to this Inquiry that the only additional information obtained by DCO HARPER after that point, when he was so adamant that the search should not take place, was the opinion of a builder who conducted work on the building in 2003 and held a contrary view to a pathologist who, in 2003 when bones were found at Haut de la Garenne, classified them as animal rather than human. It cannot be ascertained, in the absence of documentary records to assist us, why the view of this builder should have had such a profound effect on DCO HARPER, causing him to change his initial viewpoint.
      Neither has any record been found as to whether this particular aspect of the decision was referred to CO POWER for consideration.
      3.10.10
      It seems more likely to this Inquiry, that CO POWER felt that, against the political backdrop and suggestions of ‘cover up’ and concealment, there was no alternative but to search Haut de la Garenne with a view to bringing the rumours and speculation to an end. Operation Haven accepts that this legitimate objective must be taken into account when assessing the performance of the Chief Officer in respect of this facet of our Inquiry.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 07:48:42 PM
      For you ferryman and those others who ignore evidence, knowledge and logic which doesn't suit your agenda.


      '   Specialist dogs are demonstrably reliable.

      In the Oesterhelweg et al 1998 study, it was demonstrated that the overall accuracy of the dogs they tested was 98%

      Controlled studies like these are important as they are able, amongst other things, to identify false negatives and positives, something which is very difficult to do in the field. In the Zapata case, for example, the judge originally excluded the dog evidence as he decided that in tests conducted, where no alert had been signalled by the dog, no human had gone over the ground and checked there was nothing there for the dog to find. He therefore declared these ''false negatives'', which is nonsense. Hence studies which identify genuine false positives and negatives are vital.

      Dogs trained to detect chemical changes in urine consistent with bladder cancer are able to do so with greater accuracy than laboratory tests, a pattern repeated with dogs trained to detect other medical problems. Dogs can alert to the presence of numerous malignant changes, possibly as a result of necrosis associated with the tumour, and can even signal to people with epilepsy that a seizure is imminent.

      Humans do have these abilities - they are just nowhere near as pronounced as in dogs. Experienced nurses quickly learn to detect certain bacterial wound infections by their distinctive odour, for example.

      If a dog gives an alert, it is alerting to the scent. The scent may be residual, and there may be no remains present to find, but is that a false alert? No, of course it isn't. It is alerting to something which was present and has now gone.

      Because it is not possible to completely eliminate the risk of false positive alerts and unconscious signalling by handlers, an uncorroborated alert is unlikely to be considered sufficient to present in evidence, but may still add to the weight of circumstantial evidence.

      The twisting and whining by McCann supporters, and by the McCanns themselves who have made some outrageous statements about Cadaver dogs in general and Mr Grime in particular, does them no favours.

      The 'coconut shell' debacle is another example of this hysteria. ''Eddie found a coconut!'' they shriek.
      No.

      Eddie alerted to the ground. A forensic anthropologist identified a piece of what looked like it might be human skull. This is not uncommon, as if you field walk any ploughed field in the uk you are likely to find two things - medieval pottery and pieces of ancient human bone. Subsequent tests suggested it was probably a piece of seed pod or shell, but Eddie alerted to the ground, or earth adherent to the shell, not the shell itself.

      The dog alerts in PdL provided what Redwood would have called ''an investigative opportunity''
      It will be interesting to see if, should another suspect ever emerge, the McCann supporters will be so keen to dismiss multiple uncorroborated alerts from their property   '

      what evidence am I ignoring...there is none re the dogs...after 8 years you and others still do not understand the truth.

      You continue to simply copy posts from other forums...can't you compose any yourself..



      it is a fact that Grime has never confirmed that the dogs alerted to cadaver odour... if Grime cannot no one else can...you simply want to avoid the real evidence...Grime's statement.... because it does not fit with your preconceived mindset
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 07:53:14 PM
      However, Decision 13 of the Search Policy Book also makes reference to the Ground Penetrating Radar confirmation of anomalies under the floor and ‘dog indications

      Where the dog barked, they searched.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 07:54:10 PM
      That view would not seem to be borne out by the inquiry:
      3.10.2
      It is apparent from DCO HARPER’s policy book entries relating to the search of Haut de la Garenne that the rationale he developed to justify the search (in particular the full scale dig inside the premises) is based upon historic accounts from witnesses of varying reliability. However, Decision 13 of the Search Policy Book also makes reference to the Ground Penetrating Radar confirmation of anomalies under the floor and ‘dog indications’

      3.10.8
      On 11 February 2008, a string of e-mails between the States of
      Jersey Police Forensic Service Manager,
      X , and DCO HARPER, reflect X attempts to persuade him to search the inside of Haut de la Garenne. DCO HARPER is adamant in his reply that they will not search that area as ‘there is not a shred of intelligence or evidence to suggest that anything untoward took place in any of the rooms. We would be ‘fishing’.
      3.10.9
      It appears to this Inquiry that the only additional information obtained by DCO HARPER after that point, when he was so adamant that the search should not take place, was the opinion of a builder who conducted work on the building in 2003 and held a contrary view to a pathologist who, in 2003 when bones were found at Haut de la Garenne, classified them as animal rather than human. It cannot be ascertained, in the absence of documentary records to assist us, why the view of this builder should have had such a profound effect on DCO HARPER, causing him to change his initial viewpoint.
      Neither has any record been found as to whether this particular aspect of the decision was referred to CO POWER for consideration.
      3.10.10
      It seems more likely to this Inquiry, that CO POWER felt that, against the political backdrop and suggestions of ‘cover up’ and concealment, there was no alternative but to search Haut de la Garenne with a view to bringing the rumours and speculation to an end. Operation Haven accepts that this legitimate objective must be taken into account when assessing the performance of the Chief Officer in respect of this facet of our Inquiry.

      Indeed.

      Cover up  allegations and whistleblowers strongly indicate police officers have covered up paedophilia.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 07:54:42 PM
      From davel earlier..............


      ''There is no confirmation from grime that the alerts were to cadaverine ..... In reality we do not have a clue what the alerts were to''

      and a response from another poster to davel, in addition to my earlier ones.

      '  Well, you clearly don't. Grime's dogs were not trained to alert to Cadaverine. Cadaverine is a volatile compound which is just one of the molecules which contributes to cadaver odour.

      His dogs were trained to alert to cadaver odour. Therefore, a positive alert signals the presence of cadaver odour.

      It is possible to ''collect'' a scent from the air and analyse the constituent molecules but this was not attempted here'

      Grime does NOT agree
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 07:55:41 PM
      Indeed.

      Cover up  allegations and whistleblowers strongly indicate police officers have covered up paedophilia.

      they did in Portugal too...and probably in most countries in the world
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 14, 2015, 07:56:06 PM
      Irrelevant.

      You can't ask a dog to switch off from that they are trained to detect unless you desensitise the dog to that scent.

      Both Grime and Harrison make plain Eddie would react to blood.

      Keela didn't detect blood on the clothes Eddie alerted to.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 07:58:06 PM
      Was it Holmes said something like "when you add two numbers together Watson, the number they add up to, no matter how surprising, must be the solution" ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 07:59:52 PM
      Where did you read that?

      I was questioning whether it was possible and whether Grime had pointed it out or not, if so.

      - Grime made a point of stating that Keela would only react to bodily fluids if mixed with blood, but he made no such remark about Eddie.

      Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
      The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      - He also stated that Keela would only react to the physical presence of blood, but he makes no such remark about Eddie.

      The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something. At this point over here where the victim recovery dog has indicated, as you saw on the video, the crime scene dog had actually given me what we call a passive indication where she freezes in this spot here which would indicate to me that there is some human blood there. She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows. (Transcript 5A) http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


      Re Keela and blood, and then a comment about Eddie:

      In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities.

      Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable leve1 for accurate location.

      It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent. Forensic testing may not produce evidence but any alert may provide intelligence to support other factors in the investigation of a crime.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 08:02:13 PM
      they did in Portugal too...and probably in most countries in the world

      Since when has a link to paedophilia been established, let alone proven in this case ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 08:03:35 PM
      Since when has a link to paedophilia been established, let alone proven in this case ?

      It hasn't
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 08:05:42 PM
      Collagen is found in mammals not coconut.

      (https://images-blogger-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-gURm_7j3Hbc%2FVIhhETCNn2I%2FAAAAAAAAH9A%2F7UetjVtIXWY%2Fs1600%2FTortureCham.jpg&container=blogger&gadget=a&rewriteMime=image%2F*)

      "One chamber contained a concrete bathtub splattered with blood."

      Forensic scientists searching the cellars, where victims have told them they were taken to be abused, have already uncovered 65 milk teeth and up to 100 pieces of bone that they say appear to have been burned. An intact adenoid bone, from the ear of a child, has also been found, it has been reported.

      https://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2008/07/14/


      That is precisely the type of inaccurate reporting based on half-baked police leaks that some of us are referring to.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:07:12 PM
      I was questioning whether it was possible and whether Grime had pointed it out or not, if so.

      - Grime made a point of stating that Keela would only react to bodily fluids if mixed with blood, but he made no such remark about Eddie.

      Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
      The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      - He also stated that Keela would only react to the physical presence of blood, but he makes no such remark about Eddie.

      The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something. At this point over here where the victim recovery dog has indicated, as you saw on the video, the crime scene dog had actually given me what we call a passive indication where she freezes in this spot here which would indicate to me that there is some human blood there. She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows. (Transcript 5A) http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


      Re Keela and blood, and then a comment about Eddie:

      In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities.

      Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable leve1 for accurate location.

      It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent. Forensic testing may not produce evidence but any alert may provide intelligence to support other factors in the investigation of a crime.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

      No, you were not questioning if it was possible that Eddie could alert to residual blood scent, but were questionng if Grime or Harrison had told any of the PJ that he could, and if they did, it was likely they decided to plant a plaster or sock with blood on it in the flat before the dogs were brought in!

      At least that is the way I read your post. So, do you redact the suggestion that Eddie alerts to residual blood scent? Because I cant find any evidence for it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 14, 2015, 08:17:59 PM
      No, you were not questioning if it was possible that Eddie could alert to residual blood scent, but were questionng if Grime or Harrison had told any of the PJ that he could, and if they did, it was likely they decided to plant a plaster or sock with blood on it in the flat before the dogs were brought in!

      At least that is the way I read your post. So, do you redact the suggestion that Eddie alerts to residual blood scent? Because I cant find any evidence for it.


      Grime is talking about blood. Keela only reacts to the physical presence of it. Then, he states that Eddie may react to a scent source (still talking about blood).

      Was this discussed in an informal briefing or not? There's no way of knowing.

      In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities.

      Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable leve1 for accurate location.

      It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 08:26:41 PM

      Grime is talking about blood. Keela only reacts to the physical presence of it. Then, he states that Eddie may react to a scent source (still talking about blood).

      Was this discussed in an informal briefing or not? There's no way of knowing.

      In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities.

      Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable leve1 for accurate location.

      It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent.


      What 'dead body' scent exactly ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 08:29:10 PM
      What 'dead body' scent exactly ?

      Read Grime's statement
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 08:41:27 PM

      Grime is talking about blood. Keela only reacts to the physical presence of it. Then, he states that Eddie may react to a scent source (still talking about blood).

      Was this discussed in an informal briefing or not? There's no way of knowing.

      In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities.

      Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable leve1 for accurate location.

      It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent.


      There is nothing there that suggests a residual scent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 08:42:49 PM
      Read Grime's statement

      Grime isn't a forensic scientist.

      He was a dog handler.

      The dogs alerted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 08:44:48 PM
      Grime isn't a forensic scientist.

      He was a dog handler.

      The dogs alerted.

      And what do the alerts signify according to Grime
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 08:55:00 PM
      And what do the alerts signify according to Grime

      You tell me dave  8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:07:16 PM
      You tell me dave  8)--))

      They are suggestive of cadaver odour..   Just suggestive
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 09:10:28 PM
      They are suggestive of cadaver odour..   Just suggestive

      Now remind exactly of what the dogs were trained to do.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 09:11:29 PM
      Keela didn't detect blood on the clothes Eddie alerted to.

      Eddie didn't alert to any clothes.  He picked stuff up in his mouth (an untrained and deleterious act) and barked (though obviously not at the same time) ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:13:40 PM
      Eddie didn't alert to any clothes.  He picked stuff up in his mouth (an untrained and deleterious act) and barked (though obviously not at the same time) ...

      Eddie did bark when screening the clothes, he only barks when he has found the scent he is trained to find. Why are you trying  to rewrite history?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:13:47 PM
      Now remind exactly of what the dogs were trained to do.
      Eddie is an EVRD dog trained to find human remains
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:15:25 PM
      Eddie did bark when screening the clothes, he only barks when he has found the scent he is trained to find. Why are you trying  to rewrite history?

      So you claim the alerts confirm the presence of cadaver odour
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:16:19 PM
      Eddie is an EVRD dog trained to find human remains

      and the remnant scent of.....an important piece of info you decided to exclude
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 09:17:51 PM
      Eddie is an EVRD dog trained to find human remains
      ...and places where they have previously been
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:18:11 PM
      So you claim the alerts confirm the presence of cadaver odour

      I claimed Eddie alerted to the clothes, a fact which Ferryman is denying for some inexplicable reason...do you have any idea why Ferryman says Eddie did NOT alert? when he obviously did?

       @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:19:11 PM
      and the remnant scent of.....an important piece of info you decided to exclude

      But the existence of remnant scent cannot be confirmed without forensic evidence so no one knows how reliable the alerts are.....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:20:50 PM
      I claimed Eddie alerted to the clothes, a fact which Ferryman is denying for some inexplicable reason...do you have any idea why Ferryman says Eddie did NOT alert? when he obviously did?

       @)(++(*

      You claimed grime confirmed the alerts to cadaver odour...try and stick to the truth
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:21:43 PM
      But the existence of remnant scent cannot be confirmed without forensic evidence so no one knows how reliable the alerts are.....

      How many tmes do I need to say there is no such thng as forensic evidence for remnant scent

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:23:31 PM
      You claimed grime confirmed the alerts to cadaver odour...try and stick to the truth

      I was responding to Ferryman who said Eddie did not alert to any clothes, try  sticking to the facts, if possible
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 14, 2015, 09:24:00 PM
      But the existence of remnant scent cannot be confirmed without forensic evidence so no one knows how reliable the alerts are.....

      So, if a dog alerts and a body is found it is alerting to the scent of a dead body, yet if a body is not present then in the world of davel it is alerting to something else.....talk about clutching at straws.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:25:35 PM
      How many tmes do I need to say there is no such thng as forensic evidence for remnant scent

      There is possible forensic evidence for the alerts... Without forensic evidence the alerts have no evidential reliability,
      Grime was unable to confirm the alerts were to residual scent...fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:27:29 PM
      There is possible forensic evidence for the alerts... Without forensic evidence the alerts have no evidential reliability,
      Grime was unable to confirm the alerts were to residual scent...fact

      No, there is no forensic evidence for remnant scent, if you thnk there is, do detail it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:29:05 PM
      So, if a dog alerts and a body is found it is alerting to the scent of a dead body, yet if a body is not present then in the world of davel it is alerting to something else.....talk about clutching at straws.

      Try sticking to the facts
      If a dog alerts and a body is found.... The alert is confirmed
      If no body is found the alert is not confirmed

      Where is the fault in the logic
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 09:29:18 PM
      You claimed grime confirmed the alerts to cadaver odour...try and stick to the truth

      Grime neither confirmed or dismissed it.

      It wasn't his job to either.

      It is simply a case of probability.

      The dogs alerted.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 14, 2015, 09:30:19 PM
      For 8 years peeps expert and amateur have completely missed the elementary solution to the PMI issue IMO.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:30:40 PM
      No, there is no forensic evidence for remnant scent, if you thnk there is, do detail it

      There is no forensic evidence for residual scent therefore it cannot be confirmed and is therefore evidence of nothing
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:31:47 PM
      Grime neither confirmed or dismissed it.

      It wasn't his job to either.

      It is simply a case of probability.

      The dogs alerted.

      Thank you
      Grime did not confirm the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 09:32:49 PM
      Try sticking to the facts
      If a dog alerts and a body is found.... The alert is confirmed
      If no body is found the alert is not confirmed

      Where is the fault in the logic

      Very simple.

      Bodies aren't always found.

      However, people can still be found guilty in those circumstances.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 09:34:26 PM
      Thank you
      Grime did not confirm the alerts

      Did he dismiss them.

      Again, just to remind you, it wasn't Grime's job to say yes or no.

      That was the job of the forensic scientists involved.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:36:38 PM
      So, if a dog alerts and a body is found it is alerting to the scent of a dead body, yet if a body is not present then in the world of davel it is alerting to something else.....talk about clutching at straws.

      and the world of many others

      pizza, nappies, plasters or socks with blood (potentially planted but disappeared straight before the dogs went in) bad breath, sweat!!, period blood, teegh, toenails, abortions, semen just lieing there, and other such nonsense
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:37:35 PM
      Very simple.

      Bodies aren't always found.

      However, people can still be found guilty in those circumstances.

      based on the evidence..not the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:38:14 PM
      There is no forensic evidence for residual scent therefore it cannot be confirmed and is therefore evidence of nothing

      LOL, now that is real funny
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:39:05 PM
      Did he dismiss them.

      Again, just to remind you, it wasn't Grime's job to say yes or no.

      That was the job of the forensic scientists involved.

      what good is a forensic scientist when there is nothing recovered to analyse...sweet FA
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 09:39:49 PM
      LOL, now that is real funny

      tell us why...you cannot...the post makes perfect sense and you are reduced to name calling
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
      For 8 years peeps expert and amateur have completely missed the elementary solution to the PMI issue IMO.

      Seeing as you dont know what happened in that flat between 5.30 and 10 pm I dont think you can dictate anything  about PMIs
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:43:08 PM
      tell us why...you cannot...the post makes perfect sense and you are reduced to name calling

      Your post was illogical and I didnt name call, are you imagining things again? Or projecting, seeing as you use derogatory phrases to several posters when you realise you are losing  an argument
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 09:44:16 PM
      Eddie did bark when screening the clothes, he only barks when he has found the scent he is trained to find. Why are you trying  to rewrite history?

      Eddie's act of picking stuff up in his mouth was an untrained and deleterious act.

      I take it you don't dispute that fact?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:51:11 PM
      Eddie's act of picking stuff up in his mouth was an untrained and deleterious act.

      I take it you don't dispute that fact?

      So why did he alert? No one forced him to

      Eddie has behaved differently on other occasions, when he scented the body of Bob Rose, he dug for it, and found it, he hadnt been trained for that either

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 09:55:42 PM
      So why did he alert? No one forced him to

      Eddie has behaved differently on other occasions, when he scented the body of Bob Rose, he dug for it, and found it, he hadnt been trained for that either

      He barked.

      There's not a shred of evidence he alerted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 09:59:28 PM
      He barked.

      There's not a shred of evidence he alerted.

       @)(++(*


      .......

      Eddie's  bark WAS the alert, I am seriously worrying about you now, never mind though, your problem, not mine
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 10:00:19 PM
      Your post was illogical and I didnt name call, are you imagining things again? Or projecting, seeing as you use derogatory phrases to several posters when you realise you are losing  an argument

      there is no argument as you have failed to say why you find my post funny...you are deflecting because you cannot fault the logic
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 10:05:59 PM
      @)(++(*


      .......

      Eddie's  bark WAS the alert, I am seriously worrying about you now, never mind though, your problem, not mine

      No connection can be made between his bark and his (untrained and deleterious) act of picking stuff up in his mouth.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 10:07:39 PM
      there is no argument as you have failed to say why you find my post funny...you are deflecting because you cannot fault the logic

      alerts to residual scent are not nothing even if they cant be corroborated

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 10:10:16 PM
      No connection can be made between his bark and his (untrained and deleterious) act of picking stuff up in his mouth.

      Now you are being silly. Eddie barks when he has found cadaver scent. Fact.
      Eddie alerted when screenng the clothes. Fact.
      2 + 2 = 4

      You just cannot say Eddie did not alert to the clothes unless you come  up wth a reason why he did alert, its not rocket science
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 10:12:29 PM
      alerts to residual scent are not nothing even if they cant be corroborated

      Your obvious mistake
      Who says the alerts are to residual scent... Grime doesn't






      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 14, 2015, 10:13:39 PM
      what good is a forensic scientist when there is nothing recovered to analyse...sweet FA

      There were materials recovered.

      However, it was a crime scene contaminated before the arrival of the police.

      Do keep up.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 10:14:40 PM
      Your obvious mistake
      Who says the alerts are to residual scent... Grime doesn't

      Seeing as there were no remains, they were to residual scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 14, 2015, 10:16:50 PM
      Seeing as there were no remains, they were to residual scent

      Who says so
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 14, 2015, 10:17:00 PM
      Seeing as there were no remains, they were to residual scent

      Do you have proof of this, Mercury?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 11:13:19 PM
      However, Decision 13 of the Search Policy Book also makes reference to the Ground Penetrating Radar confirmation of anomalies under the floor and ‘dog indications

      Where the dog barked, they searched.

      Show us in the report where it says that "Where Eddie barked they dug/searched".
      The report clearly does not say that so I guess you are making it up.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 11:15:02 PM
      Now you are being silly. Eddie barks when he has found cadaver scent. Fact.
      Eddie alerted when screenng the clothes. Fact.
      2 + 2 = 4

      You just cannot say Eddie did not alert to the clothes unless you come  up wth a reason why he did alert, its not rocket science

      Eddie barks when he has found blood.

      And the evidence of cuddle-cat suggests he also barks when he wants his toy back.

      We can only guess what else might prompt him to bark.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 14, 2015, 11:16:18 PM
      Rename the "Thread Eddie and the Two Boogah Men" ?
       *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 14, 2015, 11:16:44 PM
      Show us in the report where it says that "Where Eddie barked they dug/searched".
      The report clearly does not say that so I guess you are making it up.

      They certainly dug looking for bodies.

      If it wasn't Eddie's alerts that prompted them to dig, what was it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 14, 2015, 11:55:59 PM
      Do you have proof of this, Mercury?

      As we know there is no proof otherwise we wouldn't be debating it to kingdom come.

      I just go on two facts

      Eddie does not alert unless he finds what he has been trained to find eg dead bodies,
      and Grime's/Harrisons comments, eg

      In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 14, 2015, 11:57:32 PM
      As we know there is no proof otherwise we wouldn't be debating it to kingdom come.

      I just go on two facts

      Eddie does not alert unless he finds what he has been trained to find eg dead bodies,
      and Grime's/Harrisons comments, eg

      In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed

      So what you meant and missed out was ‘In my opinion’
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 15, 2015, 12:02:01 AM
      Do you all agree with the Handler/trainer’s conclusions, ?


      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.
       This does not however suggest a motive or suspect, as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence, reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 15, 2015, 12:02:43 AM
      So what you meant and missed out was ‘In my opinion’

      No, its not my opinion, its police officers words
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 15, 2015, 12:05:08 AM
      Do you all agree with the Handler/trainer’s conclusions, ?


      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.
       This does not however suggest a motive or suspect, as cross contamination could be as a result of a number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence, reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      Yes, Grime said the alerts indicate cadaverscent contaminant.He put it simply enugh, personally I dont  see why anyone has a problem with that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 15, 2015, 12:07:09 AM
      Seeing as there were no remains, they were to residual scent

      And you have cite that states this as a fact?
      I haven't seen that, so sorry if I missed it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 15, 2015, 01:27:36 AM
      And you have cite that states this as a fact?
      I haven't seen that, so sorry if I missed it.

      I already replied  to this, someone saw fit for some reason to delete my reply as well as at least one other so cant help you there, if my posts are culled its not my problem but the mods one
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 15, 2015, 01:46:21 AM
      And you have cite that states this as a fact?
      I haven't seen that, so sorry if I missed it.

      You don't need a body to confirm his alerts because it may not exist now. The perps would love that - search forever you ain't gonna find FA! There are many like Adrian Prout who lie and lie and lie to try and prove their innocence but Truth never lies. The proven dog, Eddie, in that case (and many others) alerted to death scent whatever anyone else claims. You either lie or you don't and spend the rest of your life in jail. So perps lie! Uncover the lies and you discover the truth.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 15, 2015, 02:44:46 AM
      But PF Eddie could have been alerting to sausages and nappies and sticky plasters or socks with blood on planted  by the PJ and then remved inmediately before Eddie was sent in

       @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 09:56:15 AM
      As we know there is no proof otherwise we wouldn't be debating it to kingdom come.

      I just go on two facts

      Eddie does not alert unless he finds what he has been trained to find eg dead bodies,
      and Grime's/Harrisons comments, eg

      In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed

      you seem to have a basic problem with logic...if there is no PROOF for something then it is not a FACT...

      Grime use the words "may suggest"...he states nothing as a fact...you are 100% wrong yet again

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 09:59:14 AM
      Yes, Grime said the alerts indicate cadaverscent contaminant.He put it simply enugh, personally I dont  see why anyone has a problem with that.

      no he didn't...you are spreading lies again
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 10:04:45 AM
      You don't need a body to confirm his alerts because it may not exist now. The perps would love that - search forever you ain't gonna find FA! There are many like Adrian Prout who lie and lie and lie to try and prove their innocence but Truth never lies. The proven dog, Eddie, in that case (and many others) alerted to death scent whatever anyone else claims. You either lie or you don't and spend the rest of your life in jail. So perps lie! Uncover the lies and you discover the truth.

      What we have established is that the alerts cannot be confirmed without physical evidence. Any claim that the alerts in PDL prove that eddie was alerting to cadaver odour is an outright lie
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 15, 2015, 10:22:30 AM
      They certainly dug looking for bodies.

      If it wasn't Eddie's alerts that prompted them to dig, what was it?

      At the risk of being boring about the Wiltshire Police Inquiry:
      It appears to this Inquiry that the only additional information obtained by DCO HARPER after that point, when he was so adamant that the search should not take place, was the opinion of a builder who conducted work on the building in 2003 and held a contrary view to a pathologist who, in 2003 when bones
      were found at Haut de la Garenne, classified them as animal rather than human. It cannot be ascertained, in the absence of documentary records to assist us, why the view of this builder should have had such a profound effect on DCO HARPER, causing him to change his initial viewpoint.

      The report also refers to historic accounts from witnesses, Ground Penetrating Radar and dog indications.

      If however you choose to believe most of it is "window dressing" and it was all down to Eddie then OK. But that is not what the report says.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 10:30:36 AM
      But PF Eddie could have been alerting to sausages and nappies and sticky plasters or socks with blood on planted  by the PJ and then remved inmediately before Eddie was sent in

       @)(++(*


      The wonder is how investigators ever cope on site, what with non-stop alerts due to all the possible sources listed here, plus the unconscious cuing from handlers ,  over- excited undisciplined dogs either in play-mode ; reward- fixated mode or simply exhausted and alerting to get it all over with and go home.

       (Not to forget possible cross-contamination from cleaning - mops and dogs even alerting to their own slobber !)

      Those seem to be  the latest.

      The alerts, like the "reasons" for them, would be incessant.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 10:34:39 AM

      The wonder is how investigators ever cope on site, what with non-stop alerts due to all the possible sources listed here, plus the unconscious cuing from handlers ,  over- excited undisciplined dogs either in play-mode ; reward- fixated mode or simply exhausted and alerting to get it all over with and go home.

       (Not to forget possible cross-contamination from cleaning - mops and dogs even alerting to their own slobber !)

      Those seem to be  the latest.

      The alerts, like the "reasons" for them, would be incessant.

      the simplest thing to do is to listen to what Grime..the expert..said...as I do
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 10:51:14 AM

      Basically, Eddie was flawed as a Cadaver Dog, which he actually wasn't.  Martin Grime saw a market and exploited it.
      He then went on to train Morse in a far better fashion.  Sadly, he did a great deal of damage in the meantime.
      Martin Grime understands semantics.  Most people don't.  Or they see what they want to see.
      Although I suspect that Martin Grime got some help on what he did have to say.
      I learned this art many years ago, so I can spot it a mile off.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 15, 2015, 11:00:22 AM

      The wonder is how investigators ever cope on site, what with non-stop alerts due to all the possible sources listed here, plus the unconscious cuing from handlers ,  over- excited undisciplined dogs either in play-mode ; reward- fixated mode or simply exhausted and alerting to get it all over with and go home.

       (Not to forget possible cross-contamination from cleaning - mops and dogs even alerting to their own slobber !)

      Those seem to be  the latest.

      The alerts, like the "reasons" for them, would be incessant.

      Glad to see you have been taking in all the posts explaining what some of the sources of residual scent may be, although you have missed many out ... but just as dog owners try to control the traditional doggy greeting of shoving a nose into a stranger's crotch as a means of introduction and sussing out who is who ... the dog handler trains his dog to know when he is 'working' and when not.

      You may have noticed Martin Grime putting his dog in a sit or stay mode before either a hand signal or a verbal communication sets him off ... (the car park).
      You may also have noticed him again putting the dog into sit or stay mode after a search ... (the villa and infamous cuddle cat scene).

      Therefore just as the pet dog is taught to behave in polite company ... the working dog knows when he is on duty and when off.
      Resulting in the lack of "incessant" alerting.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 15, 2015, 11:03:57 AM
      Basically, Eddie was flawed as a Cadaver Dog, which he actually wasn't.  Martin Grime saw a market and exploited it.
      He then went on to train Morse in a far better fashion.  Sadly, he did a great deal of damage in the meantime.
      Martin Grime understands semantics.  Most people don't.  Or they see what they want to see.
      Although I suspect that Martin Grime got some help on what he did have to say.
      I learned this art many years ago, so I can spot it a mile off.

      BS. Eddie is proven as a cadaver finding/detecting dog.

      FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.

      Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.

      The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.

      The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 11:09:54 AM
      The point is that many or most of the sources of "residual scents" listed are present at any given investigation site and are accessible to the dog when in work mode.

      Whilst in "work mode" the dog is also susceptible to the other cues, handler expectations and sundry reasons for alerts which are trotted out regarding exhaustion, play and reward behaviour.

      The point about why no incessant alerts under "work mode" or "on duty" conditions still stands, really.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 15, 2015, 11:13:49 AM
      BS. Eddie is proven as a cadaver finding/detecting dog.

      FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.

      Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.

      The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.

      The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

      Perhaps it would be pertinent to remember that Eddie had assistance in the search for Mr Rose's remains ...

      A man accused of murder on an Orkney island led police to sand dunes where his alleged victim was buried, a court has heard.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8518464.stm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 11:17:09 AM
      BS. Eddie is proven as a cadaver finding/detecting dog.

      FBI consultant Martin Grime told the High Court in Glasgow that he and his springer spaniel dogs, Eddie, Keela and Morse, were called in by Northern Constabulary in the hunt for Bob Rose, who disappeared on June 6 last year.

      Mr Grime told prosecutor Alex Prentice QC that one of the dogs, Eddie, who is trained to detect dead bodies, reacted when he was taken to sand dunes at Sty Wick on June 24 last year.

      The jury heard that a thin metal probe was then put into the spot Eddie indicated before a forensic anthropologist was called in to excavate the scene.

      The jury was told that a body was found at the spot Eddie had indicated.

      You forgot to mention that the perpetrator told them where to look.

      And bearing in mind that any dog can find a dead body if there is one, then this was not surprising.  This is why some dead bodies are found by ordinary Dog Walkers with no apparent training at all.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 11:19:03 AM
      Perhaps it would be pertinent to remember that Eddie had assistance in the search for Mr Rose's remains ...

      A man accused of murder on an Orkney island led police to sand dunes where his alleged victim was buried, a court has heard.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8518464.stm

      Thanks for that, Brietta.  Someone was bound to ask me for a Cite.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 15, 2015, 11:19:44 AM
      The point is that many or most of the sources of "residual scents" listed are present at any given investigation site and are accessible to the dog when in work mode.

      Whilst in "work mode" the dog is also susceptible to the other cues, handler expectations and sundry reasons for alerts which are trotted out regarding exhaustion, play and reward behaviour.

      The point about why no incessant alerts under "work mode" or "on duty" conditions still stands, really.

      Which is precisely why the importance of finding out exactly what it is the dog is actually alerting to. 

      He knows ... the investigators do not. 
      Therefore any alert requires back up evidence to say what the alert may be ... whether that is in the form of human remains or a discarded tissue from a nosebleed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 11:20:27 AM
      for all the thousands of posts on the dogs...and all the claims re there skills...the bottom linr remains...

      Eddie may have alerted to cadaver odour...and then again he may have not...that statement is confirmed by what Grime said
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 11:34:09 AM
      Which is precisely why the importance of finding out exactly what it is the dog is actually alerting to. 

      He knows ... the investigators do not. 
      Therefore any alert requires back up evidence to say what the alert may be ... whether that is in the form of human remains or a discarded tissue from a nosebleed.

      Well quite.

      The problem is that there will be "nosebleed" residue or similar blood/saliva/toenail/pork product/mop spillage related contaminants at most sites accessible to the on-duty dog in work mode.

      "Any" alert requiring back up evidence would therefore become "many" alerts everywhere requiring back up evidence.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 11:37:04 AM
      Perhaps it would be pertinent to remember that Eddie had assistance in the search for Mr Rose's remains ...

      A man accused of murder on an Orkney island led police to sand dunes where his alleged victim was buried, a court has heard.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8518464.stm

      So the evidence of Martin Grime was of no value whatsoever.  The Perpetrator admitted that he had killed the man, and then told The Police where to find the body.
      Although it wouldn't surprise me if the perpetrator pleaded Not Guilty
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 11:43:11 AM
      So the evidence of Martin Grime was of no value whatsoever.  The Perpetrator admitted that he had killed the man, and then told The Police where to find the body.
      Although it wouldn't surprise me if the perpetrator pleaded Not Guilty
      That perp told them the area of dunes to find the body in.
      Not the exact spot.
      That's why Eddie was called in.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 11:44:59 AM
      for all the thousands of posts on the dogs...and all the claims re there skills...the bottom linr remains...

      Eddie may have alerted to cadaver odour...and then again he may have not...that statement is confirmed by what Grime said

      The dogs responded to the presence of certain compounds.

      FACT.

      GRIME IS NOT A FORENSIC SCIENTIST, just a dog handler.

      Dogs do what they are trained to do.

      FACT.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 11:50:04 AM
      That perp told them the area of dunes to find the body in.
      Not the exact spot.
      That's why Eddie was called in.

      My dog could have done it for nothing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 11:53:12 AM
      The dogs responded to the presence of certain compounds.

      FACT.

      GRIME IS NOT A FORENSIC SCIENTIST, just a dog handler.

      Dogs do what they are trained to do.

      FACT.

      what compounds are you referring to and what proof do you have...Grime trained the dogs and he cannot confirm they are alerting to cadaver odour..fact

      Forensic scientists tell us was residue was collected...they cannot tell us what the dogs alerted to if there is no residue..fact


      We still do not know the value of the alerts although Grime has told us they have no evidential or intelligence reliability...which part of that statement do you not understand
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 11:58:58 AM
      The dogs responded to the presence of certain compounds.

      FACT.

      GRIME IS NOT A FORENSIC SCIENTIST, just a dog handler.

      Dogs do what they are trained to do.

      FACT.

      What has forensic science have to do with residual scent...nothing at the moment ...

      There is no science behind residual sent..it is anectdotal..

      science requires proof...there is no proof  to support what eddie alerted to....Grime has made that clear
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 15, 2015, 12:02:02 PM
      Well quite.

      The problem is that there will be "nosebleed" residue or similar blood/saliva/toenail/pork product/mop spillage related contaminants at most sites accessible to the on-duty dog in work mode.

      "Any" alert requiring back up evidence would therefore become "many" alerts everywhere requiring back up evidence.

      Absolutely.
      Which is why a dog alert will not be presented in court in the British Isles with the exception of Scotland.

      In the case of Suzanne Pilley a murder conviction was returned although Ms Pilley's remains still have not been recovered ... an alert from a cadaver dog was accepted as evidence ... not on its own ... but as part of a vast sum of corroborating evidence which was compelling enough for a jury to return a guilty verdict.
      It should be noted that this occurred in a jurisdiction which allows three verdicts ... guilty - not guilty - and not proven.

      The not proven cop out verdict usually being interpreted as ... aye, we know you dunnit, but we don't think there is enough evidence to prove it, so away you go and don't do it again.

      That people are anxious to hang, draw and quarter the parents of a missing child on the very questionable evidence of a very questionable dog alert ... and only that ... nothing else I find one of the more extraordinary aspects of Madeleine McCann's case, and there are a lot to choose from.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 15, 2015, 12:03:16 PM
      for all the thousands of posts on the dogs...and all the claims re there skills...the bottom linr remains...

      Eddie may have alerted to cadaver odour...and then again he may have not...that statement is confirmed by what Grime said

                                                ... and that is the sum and substance of it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 12:04:33 PM
      What has forensic science have to do with residual scent...nothing at the moment ...

      There is no science behind residual sent..it is anectdotal..

      science requires proof...there is no proof  to support what eddie alerted to....Grime has made that clear

      'There is no science behind residual sent'

      It is you once again who needs lessons in science.

      Just what the hell do you think forensic scientists do at the scene of a crime ?

      Play happy bunnies perhaps. 8)--)) 8(>((
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 12:06:22 PM
                                                ... and that is the sum and substance of it.

       @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      So that's why you and the rest of the mccann faithful keep commenting on this thread.

      Deary me. 8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: lordpookles on August 15, 2015, 12:07:51 PM
      Was the material recovered from behind the sofa confirmed as blood? And if so how much was actually collected and where was it collected from? Because if it was collected from underneath the tiles in small amounts I assume a reasonable amount of blood would need to be spilled in order for it to seep under there.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 12:08:48 PM
      Find a body if there is one.  That's it really.  In the absence of a body or any forensic evidence then one cannot assume that the victim is dead.
      My not so humble opinion does not rely on science, which I admit to not entirely understanding.  But does it need to?  I have got enough common sense to understand that there is no evidence or proof that Madeleine is dead.
      I have got this thing in my head that correlates what I see or hear that tells me, without the need for an understanding of science, that there is nothing.
      Amaral obviously does not have this ability.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 15, 2015, 12:14:16 PM
      That perp told them the area of dunes to find the body in.
      Not the exact spot.
      That's why Eddie was called in.

      Sands shift and it is easy to lose track of where bodies are buried ... witness Northern Ireland where victims of the troubles cannot be found despite the deposition site being known ... but there is nothing remarkable in a cadaver dog finding a recent burial which must have been stinking to high heaven as it was wrapped only in a duvet.

      Digging in sand dunes is particularly difficult as loose sand quickly backfills the area being dug out therefore pin pointing the exact spot would be important and a cadaver dog the proper tool to do that and having been taken to the immediate area I reckon it would have taken Eddie minutes to do that saving hours of digging time.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 12:15:24 PM
      Was the material recovered from behind the sofa confirmed as blood? And if so how much was actually collected and where was it collected from? Because if it was collected from underneath the tiles in small amounts I assume a reasonable amount of blood would need to be spilled in order for it to seep under there.

      If there was any blood under the tiles then it was almost certainly shed by the Tile Layer.  Or the person who lifted the tiles.  Shards of tiles can be lethal when it comes to cutting oneself.  As I well know.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 12:16:26 PM
      @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      So that's why you and the rest of the mccann faithful keep commenting on this thread.

      Deary me. 8)-)))

      Dreary you, more like.  You keep on commenting.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 15, 2015, 12:17:46 PM
      'There is no science behind residual sent'

      It is you once again who needs lessons in science.

      Just what the hell do you think forensic scientists do at the scene of a crime ?

      Play happy bunnies perhaps. 8)--)) 8(>((

      I was always under the impression they found and collected things which could be taken back to a lab for forensic testing to be carried out to determine whether it is evidential or not.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 15, 2015, 12:19:55 PM
      Sands shift and it is easy to lose track of where bodies are buried ... witness Northern Ireland where victims of the troubles cannot be found despite the deposition site being known ... but there is nothing remarkable in a cadaver dog finding a recent burial which must have been stinking to high heaven as it was wrapped only in a duvet.

      Digging in sand dunes is particularly difficult as loose sand quickly backfills the area being dug out therefore pin pointing the exact spot would be important and a cadaver dog the proper tool to do that and having been taken to the immediate area I reckon it would have taken Eddie minutes to do that saving hours of digging time.
      With the way that sands backfill, it is unlikely that the body would have been buried very deeply
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 12:21:09 PM
      Absolutely.
      Which is why a dog alert will not be presented in court in the British Isles with the exception of Scotland.

      In the case of Suzanne Pilley a murder conviction was returned although Ms Pilley's remains still have not been recovered ... an alert from a cadaver dog was accepted as evidence ... not on its own ... but as part of a vast sum of corroborating evidence which was compelling enough for a jury to return a guilty verdict.
      It should be noted that this occurred in a jurisdiction which allows three verdicts ... guilty - not guilty - and not proven.

      The not proven cop out verdict usually being interpreted as ... aye, we know you dunnit, but we don't think there is enough evidence to prove it, so away you go and don't do it again.

      That people are anxious to hang, draw and quarter the parents of a missing child on the very questionable evidence of a very questionable dog alert ... and only that ... nothing else I find one of the more extraordinary aspects of Madeleine McCann's case, and there are a lot to choose from.


      What prevents continual alerts at most sites though, if residual scents or contaminants from toenails/ mops/ pork products / nosebleeds/ nappy related substances /saliva etc are what trigger the response?

      Surely the searches on most sites would be pointless were this the case.

      That`s the point.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 15, 2015, 12:23:58 PM

      What prevents continual alerts at most sites though, if residual scents or contaminants from toenails/ mops/ pork products / nosebleeds/ nappy related substances /saliva etc are what trigger the response?

      Surely the searches on most sites would be pointless were this the case.

      That`s the point.
      Not pointless if they find forensic evidence

      But they didn't in the Mccann case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 12:25:07 PM

      What prevents continual alerts at most sites though, if residual scents or contaminants from toenails/ mops/ pork products / nosebleeds/ nappy related substances /saliva etc are what trigger the response?

      Surely the searches on most sites would be pointless were this the case.

      That`s the point.

      Probably.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 12:29:17 PM
      Not pointless if they find forensic evidence

      But they didn't in the Mccann case.

      The point was that the EVRD doesn`t seem to alert non-stop as he would were the alerts triggered by residual scents from the many  aforementioned substances which would probably be present at most sites under investigation.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 12:30:38 PM
      Probably.

       8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 12:31:22 PM
      Dreary you, more like.  You keep on commenting.


       ............and what do you do in support of the mccanns ?

      Very dreary and then some.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 12:31:32 PM
      'There is no science behind residual sent'

      It is you once again who needs lessons in science.

      Just what the hell do you think forensic scientists do at the scene of a crime ?

      Play happy bunnies perhaps. 8)--)) 8(>((

      there is no science behind residual scent.....at the scene of a crime forensic scientists are responsible for the analysis of any evidence collected...fact...if no evidence is present...as in residual scent...there is no involvement of scientist..

      it is you who needs a lesson in science
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 12:35:18 PM
      there is no science behind residual scent.....at the scene of a crime forensic scientists are responsible for the analysis of any evidence collected...fact...if no evidence is present...as in residual scent...there is no involvement of scientist..

      it is you who needs a lesson in science

      So no material was collected from the crime scene in this case ?

      You need to get a grip.

      and learn some basic science.

      'Thinking out of the box' and 'lateral thinking' won't help in your case, as your repeated mistakes in science and maths have amply demonstrated.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 12:36:06 PM
      8)-)))

      Tis always good to communicate.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 15, 2015, 12:38:17 PM

      What prevents continual alerts at most sites though, if residual scents or contaminants from toenails/ mops/ pork products / nosebleeds/ nappy related substances /saliva etc are what trigger the response?

      Surely the searches on most sites would be pointless were this the case.

      That`s the point.

      That would seem to sum up exactly Mr Amaral's late calling in of dogs which he had been told were available to him shortly after Madeleine's disappearance when, as in the case of the reconstitution they would have been of maximum value and certainly of more use than the excellent GNR sniffers. (please don't require a cite ... it's all in the files)

      Do you think that based on the fiasco in Praia da Luz, Haute de la Garenne, Tia Sharpe, Shannon Matthews etc ... VRD and CSI working dogs are 'pointless'.

      I think you are misunderstanding the role of the dogs as just one very valuable tool in the box of tools available to investigators ... or is it your suggestion that if you or a loved one is lying under a collapsed building it would be pointless to send the dogs in to find you because there are too many distractions around?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 12:42:19 PM


       ............and what do you do in support of the mccanns ?

      Very dreary and then some.

      But at least we both express opinions nowadays.  And it's all pretty dreary anyway.  Keep on taking the headache pills.  I am.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 12:44:55 PM
      That would seem to sum up exactly Mr Amaral's late calling in of dogs which he had been told were available to him shortly after Madeleine's disappearance when, as in the case of the reconstitution they would have been of maximum value and certainly of more use than the excellent GNR sniffers. (please don't require a cite ... it's all in the files)

      Do you think that based on the fiasco in Praia da Luz, Haute de la Garenne, Tia Sharpe, Shannon Matthews etc ... VRD and CSI working dogs are 'pointless'.

      I think you are misunderstanding the role of the dogs as just one very valuable tool in the box of tools available to investigators ... or is it your suggestion that if you or a loved one is lying under a collapsed building it would be pointless to send the dogs in to find you because there are too many distractions around?

      No........I think you are misunderstanding the point.

      There`s no need for you to "suggest" what you think I`m "suggesting" about loved ones under collapsed buildings.

      The point was that the EVRD doesn`t seem to alert non-stop as he would were the alerts triggered by residual scents from the many  aforementioned substances which would probably be present at most sites under investigation.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 12:45:20 PM
      So no material was collected from the crime scene in this case ?

      You need to get a grip.

      and learn some basic science.

      'Thinking out of the box' and 'lateral thinking' won't help in your case, as your repeated mistakes in science and maths have amply demonstrated.

      I believe despite several alerts only two samples were collected and neither confirmed the cadaver odour alert..

      your continued personal attacks only make you look an idiot...a chemistry teacher is hardly the height of scientific achievement...my education and experience go far beyond that. When I was at school the less academic boys became teachers...the more academic aimed higher.
      perhaps you could now stop this stupid childish behaviour and we could have a proper debate
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 15, 2015, 01:06:04 PM
      No........I think you are misunderstanding the point.

      There`s no need for you to "suggest" what you think I`m "suggesting" about loved ones under collapsed buildings.

      The point was that the EVRD doesn`t seem to alert non-stop as he would were the alerts triggered by residual scents from the many  aforementioned substances which would probably be present at most sites under investigation.

      Hmmm ... I wouldn't dream of offending you by "suggesting" anything at all pertaining to your posts ... which really rather detracts from broadening the discussion which is a pity.

      Right lets get back on track with Mr Amaral and Eddie.

      I think we can both agree that Eddie barked ... is that correct?

      I have read and understood what Mr Grime had to say about that ... have you?

      I have read up on VOCs ... have you?

      Will have to leave it there for the moment ... perhaps in the interests of accuracy and to dismiss the chance of "suggestion" getting in the way ... you might like to continue stulted discussion based on question and answer such as the three above and I'll get back to you later.

      Why are sceptics incapable of discussion without taking personal slight?  That was rhetorical.   
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: lordpookles on August 15, 2015, 01:11:28 PM
      delete
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 01:12:35 PM
      To reinforce my point...

      no one knows what the alerts signify....even Grime cannot be sure...and he's the expert
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 01:15:35 PM
      To reinforce my point...

      no one knows what the alerts signify....even Grime cannot be sure...and he's the expert

      He is not a forensic scientist.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 01:18:06 PM
      He is not a forensic scientist.

      so have any forensic scientists confirmed the alerts...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 01:20:40 PM
      The only confirmed alert is to Gerry's blood on the key bob...fat lot of good that alert was worth
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 01:22:16 PM
      To reinforce my point...

      no one knows what the alerts signify....even Grime cannot be sure...and he's the expert..furthermore non of the so called cadaver odour alerts were confirmed by forensic scientists
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 01:26:35 PM
      Well make sure that includes davel's.

      After all. we are all supposed to be on an even playing field.

      Are you suggesting that I am biased in my Moderating?  I wouldn't if I were you.  We are all subject to scrutiny.

      As it is I am perfectly capable of looking at all of you with a jaundiced eye.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 01:34:35 PM
      Quite true. Though, we've all seen the pics of the removed tiles and I thought it was established that this material came from a member of the McCann family, but there was not enough material to establish which member. I don't profess to know much about DNA analysis, so could well be mistaken.

      How do you think it is possible for blood to seep under a cemented tile?  Into the grout possibly, but not underneath.  And No, it was not established as coming from a member of The McCann Family.  Quite the opposite.  No DNA was found from The Family McCann.

      This is not a criticism of your post.  Do keep on asking.  But we are all battling past myths.  This is what the likes of me are doing here.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 01:38:06 PM
      Hmmm ... I wouldn't dream of offending you by "suggesting" anything at all pertaining to your posts ... which really rather detracts from broadening the discussion which is a pity.

      Right lets get back on track with Mr Amaral and Eddie.

      I think we can both agree that Eddie barked ... is that correct?

      I have read and understood what Mr Grime had to say about that ... have you?

      I have read up on VOCs ... have you?

      Will have to leave it there for the moment ... perhaps in the interests of accuracy and to dismiss the chance of "suggestion" getting in the way ... you might like to continue stulted discussion based on question and answer such as the three above and I'll get back to you later.

      Why are sceptics incapable of discussion without taking personal slight?  That was rhetorical.

      Are you experienced in the use of  forensic dogs ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 15, 2015, 01:45:46 PM
      At the risk of being boring about the Wiltshire Police Inquiry:
      It appears to this Inquiry that the only additional information obtained by DCO HARPER after that point, when he was so adamant that the search should not take place, was the opinion of a builder who conducted work on the building in 2003 and held a contrary view to a pathologist who, in 2003 when bones
      were found at Haut de la Garenne, classified them as animal rather than human. It cannot be ascertained, in the absence of documentary records to assist us, why the view of this builder should have had such a profound effect on DCO HARPER, causing him to change his initial viewpoint.

      The report also refers to historic accounts from witnesses, Ground Penetrating Radar and dog indications.

      If however you choose to believe most of it is "window dressing" and it was all down to Eddie then OK. But that is not what the report says.

      3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
      Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
      Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
      Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
      serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
      July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
      accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
      ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
      days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
      3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by    X of the NPIA
      questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
      time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
      acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
      Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
      review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
      to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
      utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
      review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
      interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is
      accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that
      any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated.
      In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference
      for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent
      use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of
      DCO HARPER.
      3.10.13 CO POWER himself states ‘the search dog seemed to play a
      significant role in determining whether a specific location needed to
      be examined further. I am not an expert on dogs or what they do’.
      3.10.14 Again, there is a distinct lack of documentary evidence to show any
      intrusive supervision of the SIO with regard to the continued search.
      This Inquiry concludes that the actions of DCO HARPER and
      Martin GRIME went unsupervised for some considerable time. To
      Page 116 of 383


      Supervision Highly Confidential – Personal Information
      CO POWER’s credit, there is an e-mail exchange between him and
      DCO HARPER dated 10 May 2008 in which CO POWER raises the
      question of the continued use of Martin GRIME and his EVRD. He
      says ‘Lenny, it has struck me for some time that he [Mr GRIME] is an
      expensive resource who has more than his fair shared of down time’.
      DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him
      though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search
      coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks.
      Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the
      matter further.
      3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate.
      Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully
      employed. In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject
      Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement
      Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise
      Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
      operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
      investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
      evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay
      purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.
      3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER
      accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog
      handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again,
      Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’. This
      Inquiry has been unable to establish whether CO POWER made any
      further attempts to supervise the SIO in this key part of the
      investigation.
      3.10.17 OFFICER X concludes ‘decisions should be made based on
      professional policing judgement and evidence. When you look at the
      facts, the excavation and searching of Haut De La Garenne… was
      not justified’.


      Operation Rectangle


      More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.

      (Goncalo Amaral, Truth of the Lie, chapter 16)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 01:55:37 PM
      Sands shift and it is easy to lose track of where bodies are buried ... witness Northern Ireland where victims of the troubles cannot be found despite the deposition site being known ... but there is nothing remarkable in a cadaver dog finding a recent burial which must have been stinking to high heaven as it was wrapped only in a duvet.

      Digging in sand dunes is particularly difficult as loose sand quickly backfills the area being dug out therefore pin pointing the exact spot would be important and a cadaver dog the proper tool to do that and having been taken to the immediate area I reckon it would have taken Eddie minutes to do that saving hours of digging time.
      The area where concealment was on Sanday
      2:19 to 2:40 in video http://news.stv.tv/north/160890-spurned-lover-guilty-of-island-murder/
       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 15, 2015, 01:56:17 PM
      How do you think it is possible for blood to seep under a cemented tile?  Into the grout possibly, but not underneath.  And No, it was not established as coming from a member of The McCann Family.  Quite the opposite.  No DNA was found from The Family McCann.

      This is not a criticism of your post.  Do keep on asking.  But we are all battling past myths.  This is what the likes of me are doing here.

      Low level LCN DNA results were obtained from cellular material on the swabs from the tiles (286/2007 CR/L 4 & 12). In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that anyone in the McCann Family contributed DNA to these results.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: lordpookles on August 15, 2015, 01:59:59 PM
      Low level LCN DNA results were obtained from cellular material on the swabs from the tiles (286/2007 CR/L 4 & 12). In my opinion there is no evidence to support the view that anyone in the McCann Family contributed DNA to these results.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

      Yep. I just went and had a read of the files and deleted my post as it didn't make sense.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: lordpookles on August 15, 2015, 02:02:17 PM
      How do you think it is possible for blood to seep under a cemented tile?  Into the grout possibly, but not underneath.  And No, it was not established as coming from a member of The McCann Family.  Quite the opposite.  No DNA was found from The Family McCann.

      This is not a criticism of your post.  Do keep on asking.  But we are all battling past myths.  This is what the likes of me are doing here.

      Yeah I went and read the files and was mistaken. No meaningful results were obtained. That was what I was thinking though. If a significant amount of blood was spilled it could possibly leak down between a crack in the grout. This would be apparent I would imagine to anyone investigating the scene. Seems weird they didn't try using luminol in the area.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 02:04:46 PM
      3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
      Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
      Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
      Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
      serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
      July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
      accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
      ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
      days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
      3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by    X of the NPIA
      questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
      time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
      acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
      Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
      review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
      to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
      utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
      review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
      interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is
      accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that
      any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated.
      In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference
      for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent
      use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of
      DCO HARPER.
      3.10.13 CO POWER himself states ‘the search dog seemed to play a
      significant role in determining whether a specific location needed to
      be examined further. I am not an expert on dogs or what they do’.
      3.10.14 Again, there is a distinct lack of documentary evidence to show any
      intrusive supervision of the SIO with regard to the continued search.
      This Inquiry concludes that the actions of DCO HARPER and
      Martin GRIME went unsupervised for some considerable time. To
      Page 116 of 383


      Supervision Highly Confidential – Personal Information
      CO POWER’s credit, there is an e-mail exchange between him and
      DCO HARPER dated 10 May 2008 in which CO POWER raises the
      question of the continued use of Martin GRIME and his EVRD. He
      says ‘Lenny, it has struck me for some time that he [Mr GRIME] is an
      expensive resource who has more than his fair shared of down time’.
      DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him
      though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search
      coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks.
      Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the
      matter further.
      3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate.
      Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully
      employed. In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject
      Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement
      Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise
      Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
      operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
      investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
      evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay
      purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.
      3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER
      accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog
      handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again,
      Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’. This
      Inquiry has been unable to establish whether CO POWER made any
      further attempts to supervise the SIO in this key part of the
      investigation.
      3.10.17 OFFICER X concludes ‘decisions should be made based on
      professional policing judgement and evidence. When you look at the
      facts, the excavation and searching of Haut De La Garenne… was
      not justified’.


      Operation Rectangle

      I think you will find the examination of what happened at 'Haut De La Garenne' is far from over ferryman.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 02:05:32 PM
      Are you experienced in the use of  forensic dogs ?

      I don't think any of us are experienced in the use of forensic dogs....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 15, 2015, 02:09:11 PM
      for all the thousands of posts on the dogs...and all the claims re there skills...the bottom linr remains...

      Eddie may have alerted to cadaver odour...and then again he may have not...that statement is confirmed by what Grime said

      The bottom line is that it is highly likely that Eddie alerted to cadaver odour. It is a matter of probability.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 02:11:30 PM
      The bottom line is that it is highly likely that Eddie alerted to cadaver odour. It is a matter of probability.

      who says it's highly likely....no one in authority....and who is to say what the probability is...your post is simply your opinion based on no proper evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 02:11:58 PM
      Hmmm ... I wouldn't dream of offending you by "suggesting" anything at all pertaining to your posts ... which really rather detracts from broadening the discussion which is a pity.

      Right lets get back on track with Mr Amaral and Eddie.

      I think we can both agree that Eddie barked ... is that correct?

      I have read and understood what Mr Grime had to say about that ... have you?

      I have read up on VOCs ... have you?

      Will have to leave it there for the moment ... perhaps in the interests of accuracy and to dismiss the chance of "suggestion" getting in the way ... you might like to continue stulted discussion based on question and answer such as the three above and I'll get back to you later.

      Why are sceptics incapable of discussion without taking personal slight?  That was rhetorical.

      Hmmmmm......It was irrelevant in my view , not offensive.

      How about sticking to the point as an idea to "keep on track?"

      The point was that the EVRD doesn`t seem to alert non-stop as he would were the alerts triggered by residual scents from the many  aforementioned substances which would probably be present at most sites under investigation..........including those investigated by Eddie.

      You seem, in the clip below to regard the ever growing list of substances to which residual scents the EVRD alerts, as "too many distractions"

      "I think you are misunderstanding the role of the dogs as just one very valuable tool in the box of tools available to investigators ... or is it your suggestion that if you or a loved one is lying under a collapsed building it would be pointless to send the dogs in to find you because there are too many distractions around?"


      So what stops the on duty dog alerting immediately and continuously to residual scents from any or many of the substances on an ever growing list of "distractions" which will be present at most sites ?










      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 15, 2015, 02:12:27 PM
      Yeah I went and read the files and was mistaken. No meaningful results were obtained. That was what I was thinking though. If a significant amount of blood was spilled it could possibly leak down between a crack in the grout. This would be apparent I would imagine to anyone investigating the scene. Seems weird they didn't try using luminol in the area.

      I believe that may have been used to establish what articles and swabs would be sent to the Forensic Lab in the UK
      The dogs,( Keela mainly), could detect blood specks, so small that it could not be seen by the naked eye.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 02:14:00 PM
      Hmmmmm......It was irrelevant in my view , not offensive.

      How about sticking to the point as an idea to "keep on track?"

      The point was that the EVRD doesn`t seem to alert non-stop as he would were the alerts triggered by residual scents from the many  aforementioned substances which would probably be present at most sites under investigation..........including those investigated by Eddie.

      You seem, in the clip below to regard the ever growing list of substances to which residual scents the EVRD alerts, in your view, as "too many distractions"

      "I think you are misunderstanding the role of the dogs as just one very valuable tool in the box of tools available to investigators ... or is it your suggestion that if you or a loved one is lying under a collapsed building it would be pointless to send the dogs in to find you because there are too many distractions around?"


      So what stops the on duty dog alerting immediately and continuously to residual scents from any or many of the substances on an ever growing list of "distractions" which will be present at most sites ?

      we would need to ask an expert.....may be in this situation the dog goes for the strongest scent...the body

      plus....do these rescue dogs only react to cadaver odour....and not blood
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 02:20:08 PM
      Yeah I went and read the files and was mistaken. No meaningful results were obtained. That was what I was thinking though. If a significant amount of blood was spilled it could possibly leak down between a crack in the grout. This would be apparent I would imagine to anyone investigating the scene. Seems weird they didn't try using luminol in the area.

      Luminol wouldn't have helped.  There does appear to have been blood.  But it wasn't McCann blood.

      Strangely enough, you appear to be the only Fence Sitter that we have on this Forum.  This is always a good thing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 15, 2015, 02:20:16 PM
      who says it's highly likely....no one in authority....and who is to say what the probability is...your post is simply your opinion based on no proper evidence

      Complete waste of time using sniffer dogs isn't it?  &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 02:22:47 PM
      The bottom line is that it is highly likely that Eddie alerted to cadaver odour. It is a matter of probability.

      Probability is simply not good enough.  Although your definition of probability is vastly different from mine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 02:23:31 PM
      who says it's highly likely....no one in authority....and who is to say what the probability is...your post is simply your opinion based on no proper evidence

      They are trained for a specific purpose.

      Perhaps you should look up the Oesterhelweg study 1998.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 15, 2015, 02:24:10 PM
      Probability is simply not good enough.  Although your definition of probability is vastly different from mine.

      Yes, I use a mathematical definition.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 02:25:42 PM
      Hmmmmm......It was irrelevant in my view , not offensive.

      How about sticking to the point as an idea to "keep on track?"

      The point was that the EVRD doesn`t seem to alert non-stop as he would were the alerts triggered by residual scents from the many  aforementioned substances which would probably be present at most sites under investigation..........including those investigated by Eddie.

      You seem, in the clip below to regard the ever growing list of substances to which residual scents the EVRD alerts, as "too many distractions"

      "I think you are misunderstanding the role of the dogs as just one very valuable tool in the box of tools available to investigators ... or is it your suggestion that if you or a loved one is lying under a collapsed building it would be pointless to send the dogs in to find you because there are too many distractions around?"


      So what stops the on duty dog alerting immediately and continuously to residual scents from any or many of the substances on an ever growing list of "distractions" which will be present at most sites ?

      Somebody could still be alive under that rubble.  Dogs find them.  Dogs like Eddie.  That's what he was.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 02:26:48 PM
      we would need to ask an expert.....may be in this situation the dog goes for the strongest scent...the body

      Maybe........

      If that`s the case, though, a weak residual scent remaining from an actual cadaver after a clean-up could be superseded and missed by the stronger whiff left behind by a nosebleed to which the dog alerts.






      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 02:26:53 PM
      Probability us simply not good enough.  Although your definition of probability is vastly different from mine.

      You do know convictions can be made, for example, with a lack of a body in suspected murder cases.

      That will involve circumstantial evidence and more than just a consideration of probability.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 15, 2015, 02:27:21 PM
      Somebody could still be alive under that rubble.  Dogs find them.  Dogs like Eddie.  That's what he was.

      So Eddie alerted to a live person in the apartment.....

      This one will appear in Fora all over the net.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 02:27:53 PM
      They are trained for a specific purpose.

      Perhaps you should look up the Oesterhelweg study 1998.

      if you are going to respond to my post could you answer the question it asks
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 02:29:01 PM
      Complete waste of time using sniffer dogs isn't it?  &%+((£

      not if they regularly find evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 02:30:26 PM
      Maybe........

      If that`s the case, though, a weak residual scent remaining from an actual cadaver after a clean-up could be superseded and missed by the stronger whiff left behind by a nosebleed to which the dog alerts.

      as I said...do actual cadaver dogs alert to blood...it appears eddie was not trained originally as a cadaver dog
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 02:31:10 PM
      You do know convictions can be made, for example, with a lack of a body in suspected murder cases.

      That will involve circumstantial evidence and more than just a consideration of probability.

      yes we all know that
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 02:31:22 PM
      Yes, I use a mathematical definition.

      Really?  My mathematical skills far exceed most.  I can actually add 10 times 90, divided by eleventy two and come up with an answer.

      I don't have any great scientific skills.  Just don't take me on when it comes to Maths.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 15, 2015, 02:33:02 PM
      not if they regularly find evidence

      If a dog is not accurate, it will not alert when it should as well as alert when it shouldn't, if they are as inaccurate as you suggest I think I will stop flying.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 15, 2015, 02:34:23 PM
      Really?  My mathematical skills far exceed most.  I can actually add 10 times 90, divided by eleventy two and come up with an answer.

      I don't have any great scientific skills.  Just don't take me on when it comes to Maths.

      I assume that is a joke?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 02:35:01 PM
      You do know convictions can be made, for example, with a lack of a body in suspected murder cases.

      That will involve circumstantial evidence and more than just a consideration of probability.

      Yes, Stephen, I do know that.  Can you give us some examples of circumstantial evidence in this case?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 02:35:09 PM
      if you are going to respond to my post could you answer the question it asks

      It was irrelevant.

      The dogs and their handlers are used for specific purposes.

      That is why, above all the bluster, the mccanns were and still are worried about the indications of Eddie and Keela.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 02:36:02 PM
      Somebody could still be alive under that rubble.  Dogs find them.  Dogs like Eddie.  That's what he was.

      It wasn`t the survivors under the rubble I was on about, though. Brietta brought that up.

      It was the fact that Eddie and his doggy colleagues don`t seem to be alerting non-stop, from the word go, as they surely would if all the possible contaminants listed on these threads caused an alert.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 02:37:10 PM
      Really?  My mathematical skills far exceed most.  I can actually add 10 times 90, divided by eleventy two and come up with an answer.

      I don't have any great scientific skills.  Just don't take me on when it comes to Maths.

      Oh dear. 'Eleventy two'

      Freudian slip, no doubt.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 15, 2015, 02:37:46 PM
      Can someone please remind me......How many bodies did they find in Jersey?
      Lots of alerts in this film.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 02:38:31 PM
      Yes, Stephen, I do know that.  Can you give us some examples of circumstantial evidence in this case?

      At the moment, there is nothing other than the dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 02:40:34 PM
      Can someone please remind me......How many bodies did they find in Jersey?
      Lots of alerts in this film.


      I suggest you keep your eyes on the ongoing inquiry into paedophiles and those who covered it up 8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 02:41:06 PM
      as I said...do actual cadaver dogs alert to blood...it appears eddie was not trained originally as a cadaver dog


      Eddie didn`t alert non-stop all over every site, including the McCann bathroom, as he probably would if residual contaminants from toenails, mops, nappies, saliva, urine, plasters, shaving accidents etc., prompted alerts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 02:41:40 PM
      So Eddie alerted to a live person in the apartment.....

      This one will appear in Fora all over the net.

      So you know what Eddie alerted to?

      Eddie was a Victim Recovery Dog.  This often involved live people to which he alerted.  This often involved Blood, and live people.
      So don't try your smart arsed tricks on me.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 15, 2015, 02:41:58 PM
      Oh dear. 'Eleventy two'

      Freudian slip, no doubt.

      No. I believe it was a light hearted bit of humour from Eleanor(which is a good thing).
      I know for a fact that she is very accurate on maths calculations.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 15, 2015, 02:43:29 PM
      Can someone please remind me......How many bodies did they find in Jersey?
      Lots of alerts in this film.


      Yes and many underground chambers.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1580457/Four-torture-chambers-unearthed-in-Jersey.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 15, 2015, 02:44:37 PM
      I suggest you keep your eyes on the ongoing inquiry into paedophiles and those who covered it up 8(0(*

      I have checked that out Stephen, however This topic is 'Amaral and the dogs', not paedophilia.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 15, 2015, 02:45:25 PM
      So you know what Eddie alerted to?

      Eddie was a Victim Recovery Dog.  This often involved live people to which he alerted.  This often involved Blood, and live people.
      So don't try your smart arsed tricks on me.

      So not a live person, just blood. Which Keela didn't alert to.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 02:46:35 PM
      I assume that is a joke?

      Not really.  Have you never heard of eleventy two?  It's the wild card that comes into every equation.
      You need to know it before you can decide that 2 plus 2 equals 4.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 15, 2015, 02:48:01 PM
      Not really.  Have you never heard of eleventy two?  It's the wild card that comes into every equation.
      You need to know it before you can decide that 2 plus 2 equals 4.

      So that's your Smart Arsed trick?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 15, 2015, 02:48:57 PM
      Not really.  Have you never heard of eleventy two?  It's the wild card that comes into every equation.
      You need to know it before you can decide that 2 plus 2 equals 4.

      Eddie is an enhanced victim recovery dog and is specially trained to detect the scent of human remains.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 02:49:57 PM
      It wasn`t the survivors under the rubble I was on about, though. Brietta brought that up.

      It was the fact that Eddie and his doggy colleagues don`t seem to be alerting non-stop, from the word go, as they surely would if all the possible contaminants listed on these threads caused an alert.

      Most Victim Recovery Dogs don't become Cadaver Dogs overnight.  With some facile E added to their credentials.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 02:51:42 PM
      Oh dear. 'Eleventy two'

      Freudian slip, no doubt.

      No, Stephen.  Just a joke.  What could possibly be Freudian about that.?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 02:53:31 PM
      At the moment, there is nothing other than the dogs.

      The Dogs are not circumstantial evidence, and would never be allowed in a British Court of Law.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on August 15, 2015, 02:55:02 PM
      Just as well then that any trial won't take place in a British court.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 15, 2015, 02:55:23 PM
      Most Victim Recovery Dogs don't become Cadaver Dogs overnight.  With some facile E added to their credentials.

      Do you know what a victim recovery dog is?

      Cadaver Dogs Also known as decomposition or victim recovery dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 03:09:18 PM
      So not a live person, just blood. Which Keela didn't alert to.

      What blood did Keela not alert to?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 03:13:00 PM
      So that's your Smart Arsed trick?

      Better than yours though.  I don't have to prove anything.  And nor do The McCanns.  Does this fact seriously piss you off?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 03:15:41 PM
      Just as well then that any trial won't take place in a British court.

      Or anywhere else.  It is done.  The McCanns will never be subjected to what happened to The Ciprianos.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 03:17:02 PM
      Do you know what a victim recovery dog is?

      Cadaver Dogs Also known as decomposition or victim recovery dogs.

      Yes, I do.  They sometimes find Live Bodies.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 03:42:42 PM
      If a dog is not accurate, it will not alert when it should as well as alert when it shouldn't, if they are as inaccurate as you suggest I think I will stop flying.

      what if the dog handler told you that there might be a bomb on board...but there again there might not....


      just been thinking about this...in such a situation how long would the dog handler keep his job
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 03:44:13 PM
      If a dog is not accurate, it will not alert when it should as well as alert when it shouldn't, if they are as inaccurate as you suggest I think I will stop flying.

      the only use the dogs have is finding evidence...be that drugs ..explosives or whatever
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 03:56:42 PM
      No, Stephen.  Just a joke.  What could possibly be Freudian about that.?

      So you've never been grabbed by the differential equations then ?

      2nd order, of course. 8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on August 15, 2015, 04:11:32 PM
      So you've never been grabbed by the differential equations then ?

      2nd order, of course. 8)--))

      Grabbed by your differentials - sounds painful  8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 15, 2015, 04:11:39 PM
      No........I think you are misunderstanding the point.

      There`s no need for you to "suggest" what you think I`m "suggesting" about loved ones under collapsed buildings.

      The point was that the EVRD doesn`t seem to alert non-stop as he would were the alerts triggered by residual scents from the many  aforementioned substances which would probably be present at most sites under investigation.
      You mean like alerting to a tissue used for cleaning up after sex, for instance?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 15, 2015, 04:25:31 PM
      The area where concealment was on Sanday
      2:19 to 2:40 in video http://news.stv.tv/north/160890-spurned-lover-guilty-of-island-murder/

      Thanks Pegasus, I knew that.

      I was making comparison with the situation in Northern Ireland when it came to the location of human remains in difficult terrain despite the deposition site having been given up by the perpetrators.

      Some victims were buried in sandy areas on the foreshore which would include dunes ... some were buried in areas of peat (making the work of cadaver dogs almost impossible because of the soil type).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 04:26:29 PM
      So you've never been grabbed by the differential equations then ?

      2nd order, of course. 8)--))

      No idea of what you are talking about.  I know that figures can be distorted.  But not to the likes of me.  But then I can do all of your supposed equations in my head.  Some of us can you know.
      Logistics.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 04:27:05 PM
      Grabbed by your differentials - sounds painful  8)--))

      So I've been told. @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 04:32:32 PM
      No idea of what you are talking about.  I know that figures can be distorted.  But not to the likes of me.  But then I can do all of your supposed equations in my head.  Some of us can you know.
      Logistics.

      Well Eleanor, it's just part of calculus.

      What supposed calculations of mine are you referring to Eleanor ?

      I'm intrigued. &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 15, 2015, 04:39:44 PM
      At the risk of being boring about the Wiltshire Police Inquiry:
      It appears to this Inquiry that the only additional information obtained by DCO HARPER after that point, when he was so adamant that the search should not take place, was the opinion of a builder who conducted work on the building in 2003 and held a contrary view to a pathologist who, in 2003 when bones
      were found at Haut de la Garenne, classified them as animal rather than human. It cannot be ascertained, in the absence of documentary records to assist us, why the view of this builder should have had such a profound effect on DCO HARPER, causing him to change his initial viewpoint.

      The report also refers to historic accounts from witnesses, Ground Penetrating Radar and dog indications.

      If however you choose to believe most of it is "window dressing" and it was all down to Eddie then OK. But that is not what the report says.

      There's more to the saga though. I posted on the other thread to try to keep Jersey / EVRD etc., easier to find.

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3566.msg263595#msg263595
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 04:43:51 PM
      I still think it would be useful data - where in the apartment the clothing was. "Data data data!" as Holmes said.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 04:51:31 PM
      Well Eleanor, it's just part of calculus.

      What supposed calculations of mine are you referring to Eleanor ?

      I'm intrigued. &%+((£

      I have no idea of what a Calculus is, Stephen.  So I can't help you.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 15, 2015, 04:51:48 PM
      No idea of what you are talking about.  I know that figures can be distorted.  But not to the likes of me.  But then I can do all of your supposed equations in my head.  Some of us can you know.
      Logistics.

      When you are in a hole, stop digging.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 04:53:34 PM
      I still think it would be useful data - where in the apartment the clothing was. "Data data data!" as Holmes said.

      More like a red herring to take the investigation in the wrong direction
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 15, 2015, 04:55:26 PM
      I have no idea of what a Calculus is, Stephen.  So I can't help you.

      I don't  need help Eleanor.

      It's part of one of the subjects I teach. 8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 04:55:56 PM
      When you are in a hole, stop digging.

      What hole?  I amn't in a hole.  That's your problem.  When do you expect the McCanns to be arrested?
      I rest secure in the knowledge that they never will be.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 15, 2015, 04:57:57 PM
      I don't  need help Eleanor.

      It's part of one of the subjects I teach. 8)-)))

      I think I will bail out on answering that.  It might be insulting.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 15, 2015, 05:03:07 PM
      You mean like alerting to a tissue used for cleaning up after sex, for instance?

      Maybe as Davel suggested......(sort of )...... that the dog alerts to the strongest scent at the site ?

       The sex-tissue over riding the weaker scent from the historic toenail fragments, any residual scents from plasters, saliva , mop related cross -contamination and coconuts in this instance ?

      Maybe he settled for the tissue due to unconscious cuing or to get his reward or simply to get the job over with due to exhaustion?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 15, 2015, 05:14:12 PM
      Maybe as Davel suggested......(sort of )...... that the dog alerts to the strongest scent at the site ?

       The sex-tissue over riding the weaker scent from the historic toenail fragments, any residual scents from plasters, saliva , mop related cross -contamination and coconuts in this instance ?

      Maybe he settled for the tissue due to unconscious cuing or to get his reward or simply to get the job over with due to exhaustion?
      Exactly.  Who knows?  Dogs may not lie but that's only cos they can't actually speak so we'll never know what's really going on in their canine brains.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 15, 2015, 05:16:30 PM
      3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
      Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
      Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
      Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
      serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
      July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
      accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
      ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
      days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
      3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by    X of the NPIA
      questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
      time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
      acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
      Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
      review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
      to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
      utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
      review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
      interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is
      accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that
      any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated.
      In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference
      for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent
      use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of
      DCO HARPER.
      3.10.13 CO POWER himself states ‘the search dog seemed to play a
      significant role in determining whether a specific location needed to
      be examined further. I am not an expert on dogs or what they do’.
      3.10.14 Again, there is a distinct lack of documentary evidence to show any
      intrusive supervision of the SIO with regard to the continued search.
      This Inquiry concludes that the actions of DCO HARPER and
      Martin GRIME went unsupervised for some considerable time. To
      Page 116 of 383


      Supervision Highly Confidential – Personal Information
      CO POWER’s credit, there is an e-mail exchange between him and
      DCO HARPER dated 10 May 2008 in which CO POWER raises the
      question of the continued use of Martin GRIME and his EVRD. He
      says ‘Lenny, it has struck me for some time that he [Mr GRIME] is an
      expensive resource who has more than his fair shared of down time’.
      DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him
      though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search
      coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks.
      Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the
      matter further.
      3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate.
      Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully
      employed. In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject
      Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement
      Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise
      Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
      operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
      investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
      evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay
      purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.
      3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER
      accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog
      handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again,
      Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’. This
      Inquiry has been unable to establish whether CO POWER made any
      further attempts to supervise the SIO in this key part of the
      investigation.
      3.10.17 OFFICER X concludes ‘decisions should be made based on
      professional policing judgement and evidence. When you look at the
      facts, the excavation and searching of Haut De La Garenne… was
      not justified’.


      Operation Rectangle


      More recently, it's Eddie who helps to find a body buried under a flagstone at the former orphanage, Haut-de-la-Garenne, in Jersey, setting for a terrible case of paedophilia and child murder.

      (Goncalo Amaral, Truth of the Lie, chapter 16)

      I posted that lot once already why are you posting it again?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 05:16:51 PM
      More like a red herring to take the investigation in the wrong direction
      Maybe, but I'll do some check measurements anyway.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 15, 2015, 05:52:31 PM
      Is it possible some of the alerts are irrelevant (tiler and gardener mishaps?) and some are not irrelevant?
      Or is it all or nothing?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 15, 2015, 05:55:36 PM
      Is it possible some of the alerts are irrelevant (tiler and gardener mishaps?) and some are not irrelevant?
      Or is it all or nothing?

      I think it's nothing, because the way the dogs were handled brings into question the whole modus operandi.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 15, 2015, 05:59:38 PM
      I think it's nothing, because the way the dogs were handled brings into question the whole modus operandi.

      I don't see how any residual scent could last for 3 months outside in wind and rain
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 15, 2015, 06:01:02 PM
      Topic..........................No more warnings
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 16, 2015, 10:10:44 AM
      Eddie was trained for living and cadavar scents.   Maybe this Zapata dog was solely trained for cadavar odour?


      Your analogy does not work in this case Pfinder, because of Eddies past training looking for living people.

      Soz

      You are wrong so give it up Sadie. SY are using the same dogs (Tito & Muzzy) that also alert to blood like Eddie. Name some cases where Eddie has found a living missing person? Eddie and Keela are used to find evidence in possible missing people murder cases.

      Tito and Muzzy handler Sally Richards said recently: “They are trained to find anything from tiny specks of blood which are hard for the human eye to see to a full-sized victim, and everything in between.”

      http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-search-april-jones-3642420#ixzz33lYYLilY

      “But with missing people and murder cases, we know we’re giving people closure. You know that person or body may not have been recovered if it wasn’t for the work that the team put in. With murder cases, it’s about finding evidence that could otherwise have been missed,” said Pc Newman.

      Pc Williams said: “It’s a sense of determination to get justice for the family. All of us have a quiet sense of determination. Sometimes you find yourself up to your knees in mud, you have been there for hours but what keeps you going is finding or getting closure for the family.”

      As well as working on cases local to their Bridgend base, they have also been asked to go abroad. They have been involved in the most recent search for missing schoolgirl Madeleine McCann.

      All four of the team went to Portugal in June last year, working with the Metropolitan Police.

      But what is it that makes these springer spaniels so skilled? Partly, it’s because their olfactory glands - in their noses - are 400 times more powerful than a human’s.

      Pc Newman said: “The dogs are tasked with looking for evidence which can be a minuscule piece of evidence like a blood drop which is pin-prick sized.”

      That could be in a search area which is small - for example a room in a house - or miles and miles of land.

      When the dogs find something of interest, they are trained to freeze.

      PC Sally Richards and Tito searching for a human tooth. Part of Crime Scene and Victim Recovery Dog Unit, South Wales Police Dog Section, Waterton Cross, Bridgend.
      (http://i3.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article8461172.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/tito2.jpg)

      And the dogs? “They come to work to play, they have the best job a dog could have,” says Sgt Patterson.

      http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/meet-badger-spud-muzzy-tito-8460918
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 16, 2015, 10:33:34 AM
      You are wrong so give it up Sadie. SY are using the same dogs (Tito & Muzzy) that also alert to blood like Eddie. Name some cases where Eddie has found a living missing person? Eddie and Keela are used to find evidence in possible missing people murder cases.

      Tito and Muzzy handler Sally Richards said recently: “They are trained to find anything from tiny specks of blood which are hard for the human eye to see to a full-sized victim, and everything in between.”

      http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/madeleine-mccann-search-april-jones-3642420#ixzz33lYYLilY

      “But with missing people and murder cases, we know we’re giving people closure. You know that person or body may not have been recovered if it wasn’t for the work that the team put in. With murder cases, it’s about finding evidence that could otherwise have been missed,” said Pc Newman.

      Pc Williams said: “It’s a sense of determination to get justice for the family. All of us have a quiet sense of determination. Sometimes you find yourself up to your knees in mud, you have been there for hours but what keeps you going is finding or getting closure for the family.”

      As well as working on cases local to their Bridgend base, they have also been asked to go abroad. They have been involved in the most recent search for missing schoolgirl Madeleine McCann.

      All four of the team went to Portugal in June last year, working with the Metropolitan Police.

      But what is it that makes these springer spaniels so skilled? Partly, it’s because their olfactory glands - in their noses - are 400 times more powerful than a human’s.

      Pc Newman said: “The dogs are tasked with looking for evidence which can be a minuscule piece of evidence like a blood drop which is pin-prick sized.”

      That could be in a search area which is small - for example a room in a house - or miles and miles of land.

      When the dogs find something of interest, they are trained to freeze.

      PC Sally Richards and Tito searching for a human tooth. Part of Crime Scene and Victim Recovery Dog Unit, South Wales Police Dog Section, Waterton Cross, Bridgend.
      (http://i3.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article8461172.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/tito2.jpg)

      And the dogs? “They come to work to play, they have the best job a dog could have,” says Sgt Patterson.

      http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/meet-badger-spud-muzzy-tito-8460918

      Good article which confirms what I have been saying for a long time...the job of the dogs is to find evidence.....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2015, 07:21:48 PM
      Here is a detail from a PJ photo (brightened by Anna) which relates directly to amaral and dog.
      An interesting thing is there are faint traces of what appear to be check pattern on grey item.
      Is it image compression effect or is it real check partly blurred? I did some measurements including accurate adjustment for foreshortening, length ratios, using other data too, and discover the check pattern faintly visible in the photo is IMO approximately the same size check as that on grey item in other PJ photo. I might be wrong, it might be image compression, just saying IMO it's about the correct dimension.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 16, 2015, 07:31:27 PM
      Here is a detail from a PJ photo (brightened by Anna) which relates directly to amaral and dog.
      An interesting thing is there are faint traces of what appear to be check pattern on grey item.
      Is it image compression effect or is it real check partly blurred? I did some measurements including accurate adjustment for foreshortening, length ratios, using other data too, and discover the check pattern faintly visible in the photo is IMO approximately the same size check as that on grey item in other PJ photo. I might be wrong, it might be image compression, just saying IMO it's about the correct dimension.

      My goodness you have been busy, Pegasus. We must also remember that the PJ Print runs across the photo as you can see on the left margin. Even before I lightened it, I too believed it was Kate's trousers.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2015, 07:43:38 PM
      My goodness you have been busy, Pegasus. We must also remember that the PJ Print runs across the photo as you can see on the left margin. Even before I lightened it, I too believed it was Kate's trousers.
      Thanks, you have me worried about that PJ watermark now, time to check the photo again.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 16, 2015, 08:59:27 PM
      Where's this report been hiding...

      I believe that this report was Feb 2008.

      From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

      If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

      On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'

      Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-11-VOLUMES.htm

      Doesn't the red highlight ring any alarm bells...no wonder the arguido status was removed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2015, 10:42:17 PM
      Where's this report been hiding...

      I believe that this report was Feb 2008.

      From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

      If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

      On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'

      Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-11-VOLUMES.htm

      Doesn't the red highlight ring any alarm bells...no wonder the arguido status was removed
      In the bedroom he bypassed the floor level of the left wardrobe.
      However he alerted immediately the first time he sniffed the first shelf up.
      This might perhaps be a small clue that the scent came from that first shelf up.
      (However, there is a complication here - if scent was also coming from from a higher shelf)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 16, 2015, 10:45:56 PM
      In the bedroom he bypassed the floor level of the left wardrobe.
      However he alerted immediately the first time he sniffed the first shelf up.
      This might perhaps be a small clue that the scent came from that first shelf up.
      (However, there is a complication here - if scent was also coming from from a higher shelf)

      You are watching the videos edited by Duarte levy whilst the PJ are watching the originals
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2015, 10:51:45 PM
      You are watching the videos edited by Duarte levy whilst the PJ are watching the originals
      I doubt  Levy had the resources to hire Eddie and MG lookalikes to make a fake alert movie.
      NW has certainly watched the original too
      Who BTW has worked on another case where a dog alert was grossly under-valued.
      And where the investigators misled themselves by making a HUGE false assumption.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 16, 2015, 11:04:40 PM
      I doubt  Levy had the resources to hire Eddie and MG lookalikes to make a fake alert movie.
      NW has certainly watched the original too
      Who BTW has worked on another case where a dog alert was grossly under-valued.
      And where the investigators misled themselves by making a HUGE false assumption.

      I said edited...the scent of death is a relatively new phenomena....I'm fairly intelligent and from a scientific backround...as far as I'm concerned the unconfirmed alerts are absolute tosh...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 16, 2015, 11:29:29 PM
      I said edited...the scent of death is a relatively new phenomena....I'm fairly intelligent and from a scientific backround...as far as I'm concerned the unconfirmed alerts are absolute tosh...
      Yes but if, after editing, a video contains a dog barking at a shelf in a wardrobe, that means the original complete video must have contained a dog barking at a shelf in a wardrobe. Your claim that the video was edited actually proves that the dog barked at that shelf.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 06:59:31 AM
      Yes but if, after editing, a video contains a dog barking at a shelf in a wardrobe, that means the original complete video must have contained a dog barking at a shelf in a wardrobe. Your claim that the video was edited actually proves that the dog barked at that shelf.

      The complete video may have shown the dog walking past the wardrobe several times without barking at it...in the same way eddie ignored cuddlecat at first. The PJ who would have seen exactly what happened and the complete video says...

      If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'


      That statement completely undermines further the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 17, 2015, 07:17:54 AM
      The complete video may have shown the dog walking past the wardrobe several times without barking at it...in the same way eddie ignored cuddlecat at first. The PJ who would have seen exactly what happened and the complete video says...

      If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'


      That statement completely undermines further the alerts

      Grime explains that the dog was looking for the source. If there is no source he alerts where the scent is strongest;

      What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 07:22:55 AM
      Grime explains that the dog was looking for the source. If there is no source he alerts where the scent is strongest;

      What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      So now we know in most cases Eddie did not alert until being repeatedly called back......evidenced by the pj report......no evidence found to confirm the alerts........the video has been edited to show the dogs in  a better light.......

      You might be fooled but I'm not
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 07:31:50 AM
      So now we know in most cases Eddie did not alert until being repeatedly called back......evidenced by the pj report......no evidence found to confirm the alerts........the video has been edited to show the dogs in  a better light.......

      You might be fooled but I'm not

      A brief reminder.

      Inconclusive forensic results does not mean NO EVIDENCE.

      The dogs alerted.

      Simple balance of probabilities.

      THAT IS WHY YOU KEEP ON RETURNING TO THIS THREAD.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 07:35:44 AM
      A brief reminder.

      Inconclusive forensic results does not mean NO EVIDENCE.

      The dogs alerted.

      Simple balance of probabilities.

      THAT IS WHY YOU KEEP ON RETURNING TO THIS THREAD.

      if the dogs first ignored the spots they later alerted to in many cases that alters the credibility of the alerts and therefore reduces the possibility of them actually meaning anything.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 07:46:32 AM
      A brief reminder.

      Inconclusive forensic results does not mean NO EVIDENCE.

      The dogs alerted.

      Simple balance of probabilities.

      THAT IS WHY YOU KEEP ON RETURNING TO THIS THREAD.

      inconclusive results does mean no evidence...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 07:47:16 AM
      if the dogs first ignored the spots they later alerted to in many cases that alters the credibility of the alerts and therefore reduces the possibility of them actually meaning anything.

      Why ?

      Have you never observed dogs being used at first hand in such situations ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 07:48:26 AM
      inconclusive results does mean no evidence...

      Inconclusive means the material was contaminated.

      Now if a body is found..............................
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 07:50:01 AM
      Why ?

      Have you never observed dogs being used at first hand in such situations ?

      Eddie ignored uudlecat then later alerted to it...it seems this happened re many of the alerts according to the PJ....If you cannot see that this drastically reduces the credibility of the alerts then its your problem
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 07:51:15 AM
      Inconclusive means the material was contaminated.

      Now if a body is found..............................

      if a body was found that would be evidence...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 07:57:14 AM
      So we now know that the dog video has been edited to show the dogs in  a better light and that the dogs repeatedly ignored things they later alerted to...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 17, 2015, 07:57:45 AM
      Yes but if, after editing, a video contains a dog barking at a shelf in a wardrobe, that means the original complete video must have contained a dog barking at a shelf in a wardrobe. Your claim that the video was edited actually proves that the dog barked at that shelf.

      I see what you are saying, Pegasus.
      However the current discussion is the doubts regarding the alerts as seen on video, by PJ.
      Why should that alert in the wardrobe be less doubtful? They saw the full video before it was edited, Did we?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 08:00:54 AM
      Eddie ignored uudlecat then later alerted to it...it seems this happened re many of the alerts according to the PJ....If you cannot see that this drastically reduces the credibility of the alerts then its your problem

      Therein lies your trouble.

      You haven't seen dogs in action in the real world.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 08:02:37 AM
      Therein lies your trouble.

      You haven't seen dogs in action in the real world.


      neither have you or all those on the net who use that video as evidence against the McCanns.....the video which now appears to be fraudulent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 17, 2015, 08:06:07 AM

      Any Posts Containing Insults etcetera........
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 08:21:38 AM

      I'm merely pointing out a very interesting fact which undermines the dog's alerts....alerts which have been pivotal "evidence" against the mccanns
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 17, 2015, 08:30:09 AM
      Please try and keep your posts within the boundaries of the topic.  And avoid personal comments, which only result in disrupting the thread. Thank you.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 08:37:13 AM
      More deletions. 8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 17, 2015, 09:22:58 AM
      I see what you are saying, Pegasus.
      However the current discussion is the doubts regarding the alerts as seen on video, by PJ.
      Why should that alert in the wardrobe be less doubtful? They saw the full video before it was edited, Did we?

      Eddie alerts to living scents

      What i cant understand is why all this palava over him aparantly alerting at a shelf in a cupboard?  What if the dirty washing from a living Madeleine had been stored there?   There would be a scent then, would there not?

      And Eddie who was trained to alert to living scents would have alerted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 09:30:35 AM
      Eddie alerts to living scents

      What i cant understand is why all this palava over him aparantly alerting at a shelf in a cupboard?  What if the dirty washing from a living Madeleine had been stored there?   There would be a scent then, would there not?

      And Eddie who was trained to alert to living scents would have alerted.

      Have you any direct physical experience of seeing how dogs 'work' in the field ?


      Videos, give a false perception.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 09:39:52 AM
      Have you any direct physical experience of seeing how dogs 'work' in the field ?


      Videos, give a false perception.

      none of us need to see dogs working to understand what is going on. The video has been edited to show the dogs in a more favourable light...that's it. Originally according to the PJ .eddie ignored things on many occasions before signalling...we have been sold  a lie for  8 years...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 17, 2015, 09:41:36 AM
      Eddie alerts to living scents

      What i cant understand is why all this palava over him aparantly alerting at a shelf in a cupboard?  What if the dirty washing from a living Madeleine had been stored there?   There would be a scent then, would there not?

      And Eddie who was trained to alert to living scents would have alerted.

      None of us know for certain what Eddie was trained to alert too, Sadie. Only the trainer would know that. However we do know that he could alert to blood from a living person (which had dried) and IIRC, he alerted to semen on a tissue in another case.

      X contamination could be another cause for alerts. False alert is also a possibility.

      Living scent as in a human scent, would be everywhere in the apartment.

      SAR dogs who do this kind of search (live victims) usually do so in searching outside areas or areas of disasters, they will also find a cadaver if one is present.

      Please feel free to correct me on any of the above, which is only my opinion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 17, 2015, 09:43:48 AM
      Eddie alerts to living scents

      What i cant understand is why all this palava over him aparantly alerting at a shelf in a cupboard?  What if the dirty washing from a living Madeleine had been stored there?   There would be a scent then, would there not?

      And Eddie who was trained to alert to living scents would have alerted.

      Would he and other VRD`s be likely to alert to dirty washing/ clothes which had been worn at investigation sites everywhere, then.......as a result of their "training?"

      Why don`t the  many "living scents" of all sorts everywhere lead to constant alerting from the moment the dog is "on duty?"

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 17, 2015, 09:44:29 AM
      none of us need to see dogs working to understand what is going on. The video has been edited to show the dogs in a more favourable light...that's it. Originally according to the PJ .eddie ignored things on many occasions before signalling...we have been sold  a lie for  8 years...
      8@??)(

      And not only that, we NOW find that Eddie alerts to living scents as well as the scents associated with a cadavar

      What is going on with all this disinformation ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 09:45:51 AM
      none of us need to see dogs working to understand what is going on. The video has been edited to show the dogs in a more favourable light...that's it. Originally according to the PJ .eddie ignored things on many occasions before signalling...we have been sold  a lie for  8 years...


      That post merely highlights your ignorance on how dogs operate in the field.

      As to 'lies', that started with the unproven story of the abduction.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 17, 2015, 09:47:43 AM
      8@??)(

      And not only that, we NOW find that Eddie alerts to living scents as well as the scents associated with a cadavar

      What is going on with all this disinformation ?

      How do you account for the absence of Eddie`s constant and continual alerting from the word go at sites in which living scents abound?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 17, 2015, 09:49:14 AM
      None of us know for certain what Eddie was trained to alert too, Sadie. Only the trainer would know that. However we do know that he could alert to blood from a living person (which had dried) and IIRC, he alerted to semen on a tissue in another case.

      X contamination could be another cause for alerts. False alert is also a possibility.

      Living scent as in a human scent, would be everywhere in the apartment.

      SAR dogs who do this kind of search (live victims) usually do so in searching outside areas or areas of disasters, they will also find a cadaver if one is present.

      Please feel free to correct me on any of the above, which is only my opinion.

      I agree Anna, living scent would be thru the apartment, but would be concentrated on Madeleines dirty washing .... and further concentrated had that dirty washing been enclosed as in a cupboard bundled up with other washing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 17, 2015, 09:49:35 AM

      That post merely highlights your ignorance on how dogs operate in the field.

      As to 'lies', that started with the unproven story of the abduction.

      In Your Opinion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 17, 2015, 09:50:41 AM
      How do you account for the absence of Eddie`s constant and continual alerting from the word go at sites in which living scents abound?
      See my post immediately above.  Concentrated scent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 17, 2015, 09:52:52 AM
      Would he and other VRD`s be likely to alert to dirty washing/ clothes which had been worn at investigation sites everywhere, then.......as a result of their "training?"

      Why don`t the  many "living scents" of all sorts everywhere lead to constant alerting from the moment the dog is "on duty?"

      Depends on what they have been trained to alert to ... imo
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 09:55:48 AM

      That post merely highlights your ignorance on how dogs operate in the field.

      As to 'lies', that started with the unproven story of the abduction.

      the post highlights that the video has been heavily edited to misrepresent what really happened....the evidence is the statement by the PJ........

      so what experience do you have with cadaver dogs ...none no doubt
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 17, 2015, 09:58:55 AM
      See my post immediately above.  Concentrated scent.

      You feel the dog would go for the strongest scent, which is possibly irrelevant to the investigation ......

      .......i.e. alert to a pile of used towels or urine stained toddler shorts but ignore an area of significance from which an actual cadaver lay and was removed because its scent was weaker or not as "concentrated?"
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 09:59:50 AM
      How do you account for the absence of Eddie`s constant and continual alerting from the word go at sites in which living scents abound?

      how do you account for eddie continually failing to alert to something....many times according to the pj....and then marking the object...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 17, 2015, 10:03:16 AM
      how do you account for eddie continually failing to alert to something....many times according to the pj....and then marking the object...

      I hoped the many self appointed experts here would help with the answers to my questions, thanks in advance.

       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 17, 2015, 10:04:06 AM
      Last warning.............................Topic please. And leave out the personal comments
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 10:06:22 AM
      I hoped the many self appointed experts here would help with the answers to my questions, thanks in advance.

      the self appointed experts all seem to think the dog's alert are important so I don't think you will get much sense out of them
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Montclair on August 17, 2015, 10:24:16 AM
      the self appointed experts all seem to think the dog's alert are important so I don't think you will get much sense out of them

      We won't get much sense from those self appointed experts who seem to think that the dogs' alerts are not important.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 10:39:45 AM
      We won't get much sense from those self appointed experts who seem to think that the dogs' alerts are not important.

      so would you like to comment on the criticism of the alerts outlined in the report by the PJ........seems the PJ have their doubts about the value of the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 17, 2015, 10:49:35 AM
      We won't get much sense from those self appointed experts who seem to think that the dogs' alerts are not important.

      One being Mark Harrison.

      Another with doubts being PJ Inspector Dias.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 11:30:45 AM
      We won't get much sense from those self appointed experts who seem to think that the dogs' alerts are not important.

      could you name an actual expert who has anything positive to say about the alerts....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 11:35:07 AM
      could you name an actual expert who has anything positive to say about the alerts....

      Which experts have said the dogs could not have alerted to a dead body ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 11:47:43 AM
      Which experts have said the dogs could not have alerted to a dead body ?

      Grime and Harrison have both said the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliability...we can only look at what the experts have said ...not what they have not said. We are all aware that there may have been a body in 5a.....and the dogs may have alerted to it...or they may not have...not much use...

      Its like an explosive scent dog inspecting a plane and the handler reporting...there might be a bomb on there but then again there might not....wouldn't be a fat lot of use would it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 12:02:33 PM
      Grime and Harrison have both said the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliability...we can only look at what the experts have said ...not what they have not said. We are all aware that there may have been a body in 5a.....and the dogs may have alerted to it...or they may not have...not much use...

      Its like an explosive scent dog inspecting a plane and the handler reporting...there might be a bomb on there but then again there might not....wouldn't be a fat lot of use would it

      So when did they say the alerts could not be to a body ?

      Remember of course, this is what the dogs are trained for.

      and Gerry Mccann, got it so, so wrong.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 12:09:49 PM
      So when did they say the alerts could not be to a body ?

      Remember of course, this is what the dogs are trained for.

      and Gerry Mccann, got it so, so wrong.

      you need to read the post again....what do you think of the PJ criticism of the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 17, 2015, 12:12:20 PM
      So when did they say the alerts could not be to a body ?

      Remember of course, this is what the dogs are trained for.

      and Gerry Mccann, got it so, so wrong.

      In this context the dogs are used as a tool to narrow down a search area and to point up places where forensic EVIDENCE may be found - no more and no less.

      Some people do seem to be reading more into this than it actually warrants.   
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 17, 2015, 12:15:38 PM
      None of us know for certain what Eddie was trained to alert too, Sadie. Only the trainer would know that. However we do know that he could alert to blood from a living person (which had dried) and IIRC, he alerted to semen on a tissue in another case.

      X contamination could be another cause for alerts. False alert is also a possibility.

      Living scent as in a human scent, would be everywhere in the apartment.

      SAR dogs who do this kind of search (live victims) usually do so in searching outside areas or areas of disasters, they will also find a cadaver if one is present.

      Please feel free to correct me on any of the above, which is only my opinion.

      Grime's wording isn't always clear.

      According to Grime's rogatory statement, he wasn't trained to find "live" odours and I don't recall ever seeing anything to suggest that Eddie was ever trained as a search and rescue dog (let alone as a tracking / trailing / SAM dog). 

      Even what he means by "live odour" isn't entirely clear. Does he mean "live odour" as in a SAM dog? This seems unlikely (IMO) if he wasn't trained to track an individual person.

      However, from his profile statement, does state that he would "search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood.

      That has been interpreted by some to mean body fluids from a corpse, and it isn't until his rogatory statement that he clarifies that he would react to dried blood from a living person.

      It's not clear what other "body fluids" he may react to that were deposited by a living person. There's some ambiguity over whether he was reacting to semen / vaginal fluids on the Jersey clean-up tissues, blood, or both.

      I believe that someone else (Brietta?) also posted this from an interview with Grime in the Sun in 2008:

      ‘Eddie smells for the scent of a decomposing human body. He can detect any part of a human body that is decomposing ‘ hair, bones, flesh, anything.

      ‘The smell of a decomposing body is very difficult to get rid of. It can easily be transferred to clothing and on to a person.’


      https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2013/08/10/misinformation-those-dogs/

      The key seems to be whether the substances are in a state of decomposition or not, thus giving off the various characteristic smells, and are deemed potentialy relevant to a particular investigation.

      I haven't come across anything that states that he was trained to ignore even urine / fecal matter. Personally, I would have thought that NOT training him to ignore such subtances would be more of a hindrance than an asset, but then it might be useful in certain (limited) scenarios.

      From what I've read, hair and nail clippings don't actually decompose for some time in normal aerobic conditions (whether that is accurate or not, I don't know).

      In humid anaerobic conditions, skin cells decompose to give off a characteristic pong (I'll post a link if and when I find one again).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 12:24:13 PM
      So when did they say the alerts could not be to a body ?

      Remember of course, this is what the dogs are trained for.

      and Gerry Mccann, got it so, so wrong.

      The dogs are trained to find evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 12:28:00 PM
      you need to read the post again....what do you think of the PJ criticism of the alerts

      Now again.

      Where does it say, the dogs could not have alerted to a body ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 17, 2015, 12:29:08 PM
      Eddie alerts to living scents

      What i cant understand is why all this palava over him aparantly alerting at a shelf in a cupboard?  What if the dirty washing from a living Madeleine had been stored there?   There would be a scent then, would there not?

      And Eddie who was trained to alert to living scents would have alerted.
      Yes statistically the pile of laundry we see on the shelf that night contains items of all 5 people.
      I can see the plane t-shirt - and it is a perfectly normal place to see it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 12:29:25 PM
      In this context the dogs are used as a tool to narrow down a search area and to point up places where forensic EVIDENCE may be found - no more and no less.

      Some people do seem to be reading more into this than it actually warrants.

      Of course they are a tool.

      However, they are trained for specific purposes, and unlike humans, they have no axe to grind.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 12:30:39 PM
      The dogs are trained to find evidence

      The dogs are trained to respond to a group of compounds which form as a result of decomposition.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 12:32:20 PM
      Now again.

      Where does it say, the dogs could not have alerted to a body ?

      Grime and Harrison have both said the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliability...we can only look at what the experts have said ...not what they have not said. We are all aware that there may have been a body in 5a.....and the dogs may have alerted to it...or they may not have...not much use...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 17, 2015, 12:38:19 PM
      I'm withdrawing my check calculations for now - because of the complication of the watermark.
      However IMO it is likely that all 3 listed clothing items were in that pile for the entire meal.
      Any assumption that they were being worn during that relevant time would be illogical IMO.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 17, 2015, 12:43:54 PM

      Live people bleed, especially in a Disaster situation.  They could well live for sometime after, possibly soaked in dried blood.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 17, 2015, 12:57:51 PM
      The dogs are trained to respond to a group of compounds which form as a result of decomposition.

      including dried blood.  Which can, as Eleanor says, be from people who are definitely  still alive.

      So, with this information, how does a dog alert definitely mean that there was a dead human there at some time? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 17, 2015, 01:01:49 PM
      including dried blood.  Which can, as Eleanor says, be from people who are definitely  still alive.

      So, with this information, how does a dog alert definitely mean that there was a dead human there at some time?

      When the cadaver dog is teamed up with a second dog trained, only, to react to blood and (itself!) desensitised to blood.

      That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the (uncorroborated) cadaver dog alert of Morse was accepted as stand-alone evidence of death.

      The weak link in the Eddie-and-Keela combination was always that both dogs react(ed!) to blood.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 01:05:20 PM
      Grime and Harrison have both said the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliability...we can only look at what the experts have said ...not what they have not said. We are all aware that there may have been a body in 5a.....and the dogs may have alerted to it...or they may not have...not much use...

      If you were not worried by the dogs, you would not continue to post on the topic.

      Likewise, you will not convince me that the dogs alerts were false.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 17, 2015, 01:07:27 PM
      When the cadaver dog is teamed up with a second dog trained, only, to react to blood and (itself!) desensitised to blood.

      That is why, in the Bianca Jones case, the (uncorroborated) cadaver dog alert of Morse was accepted as stand-alone evidence of death.

      The weak link in the Eddie-and-Keela combination was always that both dogs react(ed!) to blood.
      At the wardrobe, Eddie alerted, Keela did not, what does this mean?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 17, 2015, 01:09:45 PM
      At the wardrobe, Eddie alerted, Keela did not, what does this mean?

      Seeing as Eddie alerted (second time of asking, but not first!) to cuddle cat, and Keela didn't, who knows?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 01:10:38 PM
      including dried blood.  Which can, as Eleanor says, be from people who are definitely  still alive.

      So, with this information, how does a dog alert definitely mean that there was a dead human there at some time?

      Can you cite evidence that dried blood from a living person will produce compounds after decarboxylation such as Cadaverine and Putrescine (from Lysine and Arginine respectively) ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 01:10:45 PM
      At the wardrobe, Eddie alerted, Keela did not, what does this mean?

      from what we have learnt...nothing ....how many times did eddie walk past the wardrobe without alerting
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 17, 2015, 01:17:49 PM
      Can you cite evidence that dried blood from a living person will produce compounds after decarboxylation such as Cadaverine and Putrescine (from Lysine and Arginine respectively) ?

      Why is that relevant? Grime has stated that Eddie would react to dried blood from a living human being. He's less clear about which other decomposing "body fluids" he'd also have reacted to.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 01:21:36 PM
      Can you cite evidence that dried blood from a living person will produce compounds after decarboxylation such as Cadaverine and Putrescine (from Lysine and Arginine respectively) ?

      dried blood does not produce cadaver scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 01:25:14 PM
      dried blood does not produce cadaver scent

      Precisely.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 01:26:06 PM
      Why is that relevant? Grime has stated that Eddie would react to dried blood from a living human being. He's less clear about which other decomposing "body fluids" he'd also have reacted to.

      Is Grime a forensic scientist ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 17, 2015, 01:37:09 PM
      Can you cite evidence that dried blood from a living person will produce compounds after decarboxylation such as Cadaverine and Putrescine (from Lysine and Arginine respectively) ?

      Why is that relevant?  Eddie was trained to alert to dried blood.

      "'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
       The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 17, 2015, 01:39:37 PM
      Precisely.

      Eddie allegedly alerted to the cellular material on the Renault key fob ... Keela's alert to the same item would appear to identify it as blood.
      The lab identified the source of the substance to be Dr Gerry McCann ... therefore Eddie alerted to blood from a living person.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 17, 2015, 01:43:19 PM
      Why is that relevant? Grime has stated that Eddie would react to dried blood from a living human being. He's less clear about which other decomposing "body fluids" he'd also have reacted to.

      Forensic scientists don't know what these dogs are alerting to because they haven't been able to separate the components of 'cadaver scent'. That's why they can't reproduce it in the laboratory. Eddie was trained on decomposing piglets because the scent is very close to that of decomposing humans. As the dogs become experienced they can identify the scent of a decomposing human being and that is what they alert to.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 17, 2015, 01:46:05 PM
      Forensic scientists don't know what these dogs are alerting to because they haven't been able to separate the components of 'cadaver scent'. That's why they can't reproduce it in the laboratory. Eddie was trained on decomposing piglets because the scent is very close to that of decomposing humans. As the dogs become experienced they can identify the scent of a decomposing human being and that is what they alert to.

      They also alert to dried blood from living humans and (Eddie) coconuts ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 17, 2015, 01:51:38 PM
      Forensic scientists don't know what these dogs are alerting to because they haven't been able to separate the components of 'cadaver scent'. That's why they can't reproduce it in the laboratory. Eddie was trained on decomposing piglets because the scent is very close to that of decomposing humans. As the dogs become experienced they can identify the scent of a decomposing human being and that is what they alert to.

      I'm aware of that. And also that there are numerous compounds that vary in presence or strength according to the type of substance decomposing and the PMI.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 17, 2015, 01:53:04 PM
      Is Grime a forensic scientist ?

      Xcuse me.  Blood only comes from live humans.  Dead humans don't bleed.  Hope this helps.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 17, 2015, 01:59:30 PM
      Xcuse me.  Blood only comes from live humans.  Dead humans don't bleed.  Hope this helps.

      Incorrect.

      Blood can seep from a dead body from a wound.

      Hope that helps.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 17, 2015, 02:05:34 PM
      Incorrect.

      Blood can seep from a dead body from a wound.

      Hope that helps.

      Seep?  Does it stop clotting then?  I don't think bodies seep  blood if they are killed and then moved.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 17, 2015, 02:06:46 PM
      from what we have learnt...nothing ....how many times did eddie walk past the wardrobe without alerting
      Several times, but spot the difference.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 17, 2015, 02:09:30 PM
      Incorrect.

      Blood can seep from a dead body from a wound.

      Hope that helps.

      Agree. For a limited time. 

      Question for you - is there a detectable difference between blood that has come from a recently deceased person and blood that has come from a living person who has bled?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 17, 2015, 02:26:14 PM
      Forensic scientists don't know what these dogs are alerting to because they haven't been able to separate the components of 'cadaver scent'. That's why they can't reproduce it in the laboratory. Eddie was trained on decomposing piglets because the scent is very close to that of decomposing humans. As the dogs become experienced they can identify the scent of a decomposing human being and that is what they alert to.


      Why do they fail to alert on one occasion then alert some minutes later
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 17, 2015, 02:52:00 PM
      Xcuse me.  Blood only comes from live humans.  Dead humans don't bleed.  Hope this helps.

      Blood pressure in anyone dead is zero, therefore blood-loss (from anyone dead is much less likely.

      Still, it can happen, and where it does, it congeals in a form very different from blood lost by a living person.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 17, 2015, 03:01:04 PM
      Blood pressure in anyone dead is zero, therefore blood-loss (from anyone dead is much less likely.

      Still, it can happen, and where it does, it congeals in a form very different from blood lost by a living person.

      Thank you Ferryman.  Would this difference be detectable by a dog?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 17, 2015, 03:16:11 PM
      They also alert to dried blood from living humans and (Eddie) coconuts ....

      Yes........and...............no.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 17, 2015, 10:16:30 PM
      187 pages and losing the will to live.....
      and that is just this thread on the cadaver dog

       &%&£(+

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 17, 2015, 10:33:55 PM
      187 pages and losing the will to live.....
      and that is just this thread on the cadaver dog

       &%&£(+

      Well this is England and we are a nation of dog lovers.
      In North Korea this thread would be entitled "Menu".
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 17, 2015, 11:03:49 PM
      Well this is England and we are a nation of dog lovers.
      In North Korea this thread would be entitled "Menu".


       @)(++(*

      but also


       8)><(

      You dont want to know what Ive eaten in China! Thought it tasted a bit funny, but wasn't told till after.


      Rabbit stew is ok though, but not wild boar, the most evil thing Ive ever eaten (was called game pie in the canteen, (here in uk) , I assumed it was pheasant or something relatively safe to try, never again)


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 07:30:20 AM
      187 pages and losing the will to live.....
      and that is just this thread on the cadaver dog

       &%&£(+

      You have missed the point here....This thread has just discovered something that has not been discussed before...the fact that the videos of the dogs have been heavily edited showing the alerts to be of even less use than we thought.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 07:38:14 AM
      You have missed the point here....This thread has just discovered something that has not been discussed before...the fact that the videos of the dogs have been heavily edited showing the alerts to be of even less use than we thought.

      Who did the 'editing' ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 07:44:54 AM
      Who did the 'editing' ?

      Morals' boyfriend
      Levy
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 07:46:10 AM
      Morals' boyfriend
      Levy

      So where is the source material ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 07:49:28 AM
      So where is the source material ?

      Levy is a journalist.... We don't know exactly how he got hold of them
      We know from a statement by a Pj officer in the files that they have been heavily edited as I have already explained
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 18, 2015, 08:07:30 AM
      Levy is a journalist.... We don't know exactly how he got hold of them
      We know from a statement by a Pj officer in the files that they have been heavily edited as I have already explained

      And Levy's monicker is all over them, re Copyright.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 08:18:43 AM
      Levy is a journalist.... We don't know exactly how he got hold of them
      We know from a statement by a Pj officer in the files that they have been heavily edited as I have already explained

      Have you ever seen a 'video' which hasn't been edited ?

      Without the source material, comparisons remain just hot air.

      and what precisely does heavily edited mean ?

      Have any 'videos' the mccanns have done been heavily edited to try and show the mccanns in a good light ?

       *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 18, 2015, 08:22:30 AM
      They've obviously been edited as there are some evident cuts  (e.g., the CC sequences). However, the extended versions that Levy uploaded (relatively recently taken down by the hosting service) weren't later edited, then reuploaded. As this argument has been going on for ages, I checked the date when I first saw them against the date when they were uploaded before they got taken down.

      If he edited them, then he did so before uploading them the first time. However, it makes more sense to me that he just somehow got hold of and uploaded the videos already edited by the PJ. The PJ only wanted the "damning evidence" moments, not hours of faffing around.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 08:29:19 AM
      Have you ever seen a 'video' which hasn't been edited ?

      Without the source material, comparisons remain just hot air.

      and what precisely does heavily edited mean ?

      Have any 'videos' the mccanns have done been heavily edited to try and show the mccanns in a good light ?

       *&*%£

      not hot air due to the statement by the PJ
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 08:33:56 AM
      not hot air due to the statement by the PJ

      Unless the original material can be looked at comparisons are irrelevant.

      So dave have videos featuring the mccanns been heavily edited for public consumption ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 18, 2015, 08:39:14 AM
      Unless the original material can be looked at comparisons are irrelevant.

      So dave have videos featuring the mccanns been heavily edited for public consumption ?

      They HAVE been heavily edited, but weren't intended for public consumption.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 08:39:33 AM
      Unless the original material can be looked at comparisons are irrelevant.

      So dave have videos featuring the mccanns been heavily edited for public consumption ?

      The pj officer who made the statement has told us what really happened...are you calling him a liar
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 08:43:22 AM
      The pj officer who made the statement has told us what really happened...are you calling him a liar


      Videos get edited all the time.

      Now try answering my questions.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 18, 2015, 09:00:54 AM
      You have missed the point here....This thread has just discovered something that has not been discussed before...the fact that the videos of the dogs have been heavily edited showing the alerts to be of even less use than we thought.

      I don't quite follow your logic.
      Mr Grime gave an opinion on the alerts. He was the "expert" called in. How does some gash hand effing about with videos diminish Mr Grime's opinion?
      Or are you trying to say Mr Grime took in the dogs then relied on an edited version of the video to draw his conclusions?
       *&*%£
      cue another 187 pages.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 09:02:06 AM
      I don't quite follow your logic.
      Mr Grime gave an opinion on the alerts. He was the "expert" called in. How does some gash hand effing about with videos diminish Mr Grime's opinion?
      Or are you trying to say Mr Grime took in the dogs then relied on an edited version of the video to draw his conclusions?
       *&*%£
      cue another 187 pages.

      Nicely put Alice. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2015, 09:36:19 AM
      I don't quite follow your logic.
      Mr Grime gave an opinion on the alerts. He was the "expert" called in. How does some gash hand effing about with videos diminish Mr Grime's opinion?
      Or are you trying to say Mr Grime took in the dogs then relied on an edited version of the video to draw his conclusions?
       *&*%£
      cue another 187 pages.

      Very true Alice ... and as Mr Grime stated ... they had no evidential value whatsoever or words to that effect.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2015, 09:41:36 AM
      Have you ever seen a 'video' which hasn't been edited ?

      Without the source material, comparisons remain just hot air.

      and what precisely does heavily edited mean ?

      Have any 'videos' the mccanns have done been heavily edited to try and show the mccanns in a good light ?

       *&*%£

      I have edited a lot of videos in my time and know exactly how to make a cut or reverse a sequence which will enhance the footage to make it say exactly what I want it to ... it's not rocket science ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 09:44:44 AM
      I have edited a lot of videos in my time and know exactly how to make a cut or reverse a sequence which will enhance the footage to make it say exactly what I want it to ... it's not rocket science ...

      So what ?

      This will have been done on 'behalf' of the mccanns as well.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2015, 09:49:30 AM
      So what ?

      This will have been done on 'behalf' of the mccanns as well.

      I'll bear that in mind next time I have the misfortune to stumble over a Lizzy Taylor effort.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 10:05:07 AM
      I'll bear that in mind next time I have the misfortune to stumble over a Lizzy Taylor effort.

      Well there's videos made in support of the mccanns and against them. ?>)()<
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 18, 2015, 10:05:50 AM
      I'll bear that in mind next time I have the misfortune to stumble over a Lizzy Taylor effort.
      .

      Very strange.  My thoughts exactly.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 10:14:18 AM
      .

      Very strange.  My thoughts exactly.

      Why very strange Eleanor.

      It's 2 halves of the same coin. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 18, 2015, 10:17:14 AM
      Very true Alice ... and as Mr Grime stated ... they had no evidential value whatsoever or words to that effect.

      Indeed he did say something like "no evidential value unless backed up by forensic science" which is a nice academic point as there has been no court case.
      What really counts is what is written in the archiving report. It remaining the ruling document and all.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 18, 2015, 10:20:07 AM
      Why very strange Eleanor.

      It's 2 halves of the same coin.

      Could we have some examples of Videos that The McCanns have edited?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 10:23:17 AM
      Could we have some examples of Videos that The McCanns have edited?


      You are kidding me ?


      I did say on behalf of the mccanns. 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 18, 2015, 10:25:23 AM

      You are kidding me ?


      I did say on behalf of the mccanns. 8((()*/

      Okay.  Could we have some examples of Videos that have been edited on behalf of The McCanns?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2015, 10:40:19 AM
      Okay.  Could we have some examples of Videos that have been edited on behalf of The McCanns?

      Found one or two which are really all about Madeleine ... what a shame there are individuals about who feel duty bound to append nasty comments to each and every one.

             
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 18, 2015, 10:44:35 AM
      I have edited a lot of videos in my time and know exactly how to make a cut or reverse a sequence which will enhance the footage to make it say exactly what I want it to ... it's not rocket science ...

      Agreed, but that doesn't get to the bottom of who edited them.

      For the PJ, the dog inspections were their "smoking gun". Unedited footage would have reduced the impact. It makes sense to me that the PJ went through it all, eliminating whatever didn't support the PJ case against the McCanns.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 18, 2015, 10:50:39 AM
      Found one or two which are really all about Madeleine ... what a shame there are individuals about who feel duty bound to append nasty comments to each and every one.

             

      That is lovely.   There are still loads of kind people around, pity about the others.

      Thank you for posting it Brietta. 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 11:33:14 AM
      I don't quite follow your logic.
      Mr Grime gave an opinion on the alerts. He was the "expert" called in. How does some gash hand effing about with videos diminish Mr Grime's opinion?
      Or are you trying to say Mr Grime took in the dogs then relied on an edited version of the video to draw his conclusions?
       *&*%£
      cue another 187 pages.

      The logic is easy to follow...there is a statement in the files by a PJ officer who was very unimpressed with the dog alerts. He states that rather than simply alerting to items as the video shows the dog on most occasions completely ignored the target several times before eventually alerting...that's what's important..

      Thw fact that the videos have been edited to misrepresent the alerts is secondary but still important
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 18, 2015, 11:46:48 AM
      Agreed, but that doesn't get to the bottom of who edited them.

      For the PJ, the dog inspections were their "smoking gun". Unedited footage would have reduced the impact. It makes sense to me that the PJ went through it all, eliminating whatever didn't support the PJ case against the McCanns.

      That sounds like a logical deduction ... particularly as we know both arguidos were shown the dogs allegedly 'alerting' to cadaver scent.
      Sitting through hours of meaningless drivel would certainly have lessened the impact and wouldn't have had the shock value of being shown alleged temporary deposition sites for the remains of your dearly loved eldest.

      A tactic designed I think to tip a distraught mother over the edge.

      The chain of evidence has certainly had a few links removed from it ... and it is an interesting thought as to who exactly did the original edit on behalf of the PJ.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 18, 2015, 11:57:23 AM
      The logic is easy to follow...there is a statement in the files by a PJ officer who was very unimpressed with the dog alerts. He states that rather than simply alerting to items as the video shows the dog on most occasions completely ignored the target several times before eventually alerting...that's what's important..

      Thw fact that the videos have been edited to misrepresent the alerts is secondary but still important

      This is waht you said first time around in repsonse to Mercury:
      You have missed the point here....This thread has just discovered something that has not been discussed before...the fact that the videos of the dogs have been heavily edited showing the alerts to be of even less use than we thought.

      No mention of policemen there is there?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 18, 2015, 01:04:11 PM
      The logic is easy to follow...there is a statement in the files by a PJ officer who was very unimpressed with the dog alerts. He states that rather than simply alerting to items as the video shows the dog on most occasions completely ignored the target several times before eventually alerting...that's what's important..

      Thw fact that the videos have been edited to misrepresent the alerts is secondary but still important

      Inspector Dias may well have waded through the entire footage and not just the edited versions that got leaked.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 01:12:32 PM
      This is waht you said first time around in repsonse to Mercury:
      You have missed the point here....This thread has just discovered something that has not been discussed before...the fact that the videos of the dogs have been heavily edited showing the alerts to be of even less use than we thought.

      No mention of policemen there is there?

      Context...... You need to read the posts preceding that post.. I can't keep repeating all the details in every post
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 18, 2015, 01:27:25 PM
      That sounds like a logical deduction ... particularly as we know both arguidos were shown the dogs allegedly 'alerting' to cadaver scent.
      Sitting through hours of meaningless drivel would certainly have lessened the impact and wouldn't have had the shock value of being shown alleged temporary deposition sites for the remains of your dearly loved eldest.

      A tactic designed I think to tip a distraught mother over the edge.

      The chain of evidence has certainly had a few links removed from it ... and it is an interesting thought as to who exactly did the original edit on behalf of the PJ.

      I expect that team Amaral sat down with the footage and got someone with a bit of technical know-how to push the buttons to transfer selected sequences onto a new tape. Not rocket science, as you've said.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 03:23:05 PM
      The logic is easy to follow...there is a statement in the files by a PJ officer who was very unimpressed with the dog alerts. He states that rather than simply alerting to items as the video shows the dog on most occasions completely ignored the target several times before eventually alerting...that's what's important..

      Thw fact that the videos have been edited to misrepresent the alerts is secondary but still important


      So what expertise did this PJ officer have in the field of alerts by dogs ?

      and if you had observed what dogs do during searching, ignoring targets is not exactly unusual before alerting.

      Just like the PJ 'officer', you and and a few others, need a bit more insight before you make judgements, clearly bent by your support of the mccanns.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 03:32:58 PM

      So what expertise did this PJ officer have in the field of alerts by dogs ?

      and if you had observed what dogs do during searching, ignoring targets is not exactly unusual before alerting.

      Just like the PJ 'officer', you and and a few others, need a bit more insight before you make judgements, clearly bent by your support of the mccanns.

      could you tell us what you base this statement on..it looks like something you have just made up...It is obviously total BS....The dogs are used to screen large areas...are you telling me they go over the same large areaseveral times..absolute BS
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 03:37:26 PM
      Indeed he did say something like "no evidential value unless backed up by forensic science" which is a nice academic point as there has been no court case.
      What really counts is what is written in the archiving report. It remaining the ruling document and all.

      it is not academic......there has been a court case online for the last 8 years
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 18, 2015, 04:04:56 PM
      it is not academic......there has been a court case online for the last 8 years

      Under which court's jurisdiction?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 04:10:23 PM
      Under which court's jurisdiction?

      The Public's
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 04:26:11 PM
      As regards the editing of the vide...a video used as evidence.....  as this video has been used online...should never be edited. The same rule does not apply to a video recorded for entertainment.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 04:39:06 PM
      The crowned master of BS is well known on here.  %£&)**#

      Take some time out of your busy schedule on here  *&*%£ 8)--)) and watch dogs  in the field.  %56& 8((()*/ 8((()*/

      with respect Stephen the abundance of emojis in your post do not make up for the complete lack of substance
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 18, 2015, 04:41:24 PM
      Topic please and watch the insults.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 04:42:43 PM
      so as expected nothing to back up your statement ....you just made it up......as expected I'm right yet again

      Watch dogs in the field dave.

      Or are you too busy on here defending the mccanns to do that ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 18, 2015, 04:56:13 PM
      I expect that team Amaral sat down with the footage and got someone with a bit of technical know-how to push the buttons to transfer selected sequences onto a new tape. Not rocket science, as you've said.

      Such comments regarding "editing" do rather weaken the case for "handler expectation and cuing" influencing the alerts somewhat.

      The entire operation could have been over in half the time.   8(0(*

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2015, 05:10:21 PM
      Who thinks excessive use of emoticons adds to debate?

      Indeed, do excessive users of emoticons think?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 05:15:18 PM
      Watch dogs in the field dave.

      Or are you too busy on here defending the mccanns to do that ?

      you still haven't provided anything to back up your claim so ...you made it up
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 05:16:34 PM
      Such comments regarding "editing" do rather weaken the case for "handler expectation and cuing" influencing the alerts somewhat.

      The entire operation could have been over in half the time.   8(0(*

      I think it's the comments by the PJ that are the most damning towards the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 05:18:49 PM
      Your  lack of substance is the problem.

      and stop watching videos. ?{)(**

      I've never bothered to watch them...so there you are
      On the other hand you have watched hours of the Hall video's  so take your own advice
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2015, 05:21:43 PM
      I would be intrigued to know what the Portuguese dog-handlers (whom I rate as highly professional) made of Grime's handling of his dogs ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 18, 2015, 05:24:42 PM
      The Public's

      Oh! neither a real court  nor a real court case then.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 05:28:58 PM
      Oh! neither a real court  nor a real court case then.

      very real and the only court in the UK that still has the death penalty as some unfortunates have sadly discovered
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 05:32:50 PM
      I've never bothered to watch them...so there you are
      On the other hand you have watched hours of the Hall video's  so take your own advice


      Oh wrong yet again.

      Watched the first one, boring.

      10 roughly of the 2 nd.

      Missed the 3 rd.

      Watched the 4 th, as it had relevance.


      How many have you watched ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 18, 2015, 05:36:05 PM
      I would be intrigued to know what the Portuguese dog-handlers (whom I rate as highly professional) made of Grime's handling of his dogs ....

      The Portuguese dog handlers haven`t made any public comments about Mr Grime`s handling of the dogs, already, then?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 18, 2015, 05:43:45 PM
      The logic is easy to follow...there is a statement in the files by a PJ officer who was very unimpressed with the dog alerts. He states that rather than simply alerting to items as the video shows the dog on most occasions completely ignored the target several times before eventually alerting...that's what's important..

      Thw fact that the videos have been edited to misrepresent the alerts is secondary but still important


      Isn`t it fairly usual for the "cadaver dog" to run, head in air as it tries to narrow down the source of the scent before going back?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 05:48:19 PM

      Isn`t it fairly usual for the "cadaver dog" to run, head in air as it tries to narrow down the source of the scent before going back?

      tries to narrow down the source of the scent........these are supposed to be the best dogs in the world...tossing cuddle cat up in the air and not alerting to it.....no
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2015, 05:51:06 PM
      I don't recall Tito and Muzzy running around much ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 05:51:49 PM

      I don't need to read the Koran to reject Islaam...or all the other religious books...I don't need to read all of Icke's books to reject his message...etc , etc..

      We have a comment from the PJ in the files that questions the alerts with good cause...fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2015, 05:59:35 PM
      Occasionally, it is the antithesis of satisfying to be proved right ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 06:00:35 PM
      I don't need to read the Koran to reject Islaam...or all the other religious books...I don't need to read all of Icke's books to reject his message...etc , etc..

      We have a comment from the PJ in the files that questions the alerts with good cause...fact

      What expertise did the PJ representative have in the use of dogs ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2015, 06:04:36 PM
      What expertise did the PJ representative have in the use of dogs ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 06:06:08 PM


      Good answer ferryman.

      NONE.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 18, 2015, 06:06:30 PM
      tries to narrow down the source of the scent........these are supposed to be the best dogs in the world...tossing cuddle cat up in the air and not alerting to it.....no

      So much for the alleged "cuing and handler expectation" then,  due to such allegedly limited control and skill.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2015, 06:08:32 PM
      What qualifications did Grime have to act as deputy crime-scene manager at HdLG?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 06:13:14 PM
      What qualifications did Grime have to act as deputy crime-scene manager at HdLG?

      More than a googler. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 18, 2015, 06:19:19 PM
      I don't recall Tito and Muzzy running around much ....

      Ah...........in that case, the reply could be something like, " i.m.o.,  the dog was exhausted and alerted to get it over with."

      (Or doesn`t that response "fit" on this occasion?)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 18, 2015, 06:21:23 PM
      Carew, do you believe Eddie and Keela and their handler Martin Grime are above reproach?  Should they and the alerts not be questioned?  Is there absolutely nothing questionable about them at all in your view?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 06:23:39 PM
      What expertise did the PJ representative have in the use of dogs ?

      That's why Grime was asked the question about cuddlecat ...remember..

      It's only when you piece all the pieces of information together that you get the big picture. Grime was asked the question and he was unable to answer it...he had in fact been caught out...the alerts were basically useless
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2015, 06:23:48 PM
      More than a googler. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      It's amazing what Google turns up:

      The forensic review carried out by X of the NPIA
      questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
      time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
      acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
      Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
      review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
      to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
      utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
      review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
      interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’.


      (Operation Havern)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 06:26:44 PM
      More than a googler. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      you will be surprised that intelligent professionals at the highest level use google  a lot.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 18, 2015, 06:32:08 PM
      Carew, do you believe Eddie and Keela and their handler Martin Grime are above reproach?  Should they and the alerts not be questioned?  Is there absolutely nothing questionable about them at all in your view?

      The inconsistency revealed in certain comments about the dogs and their handler are there to be questioned or challenged .

      As to your last couple of questions............apply them to your own and others` attitude to "questioning" or "doubting" the McCanns.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 06:32:26 PM
      That's why Grime was asked the question about cuddlecat ...remember..

      It's only when you piece all the pieces of information together that you get the big picture. Grime was asked the question and he was unable to answer it...he had in fact been caught out...the alerts were basically useless

      The dogs were trained to detect the presence of a group of compounds.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 06:34:20 PM
      The inconsistency revealed in certain comments about the dogs and their handler are there to be questioned or challenged .

      As to your last couple of questions............apply them to your own and others` attitude to "questioning" or "doubting" the McCanns.

      He doesn't get that Carew, not with his idols.

      It's the personification of the mccann supporters one a dimensional logic.......

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 18, 2015, 06:35:55 PM
      The inconsistency revealed in certain comments about the dogs and their handler are there to be questioned or challenged .

      As to your last couple of questions............apply them to your own and others` attitude to "questioning" or "doubting" the McCanns.
      Yes, I have done that myself, questioned every aspect of the McCanns, their statements and their behaviour and am quite tolerant of the billions of "only asking questions" that have occurred since Mary 3rd 2007.  Now perhaps you could answer my questions?  Should the alerts not be questioned?  Is there absolutely nothing questionable about them at all in your view? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 18, 2015, 06:36:45 PM
      He doesn't get that Carew, not with his idols.

      It's the personification of the mccann supporters one a dimensional logic.......
      How insulting.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 06:37:11 PM
      It's amazing what Google turns up:

      The forensic review carried out by X of the NPIA
      questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
      time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
      acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
      Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
      review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
      to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
      utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
      review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
      interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’.


      (Operation Havern)



      Yes I know Grime is not an expert n forensic science.

      How about you. 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 06:38:19 PM
      How insulting.

      Insulting saying mccann supporters have a one a dimensional view ?

      No, merely right on the ball.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 18, 2015, 06:41:33 PM
      It's amazing what Google turns up:

      The forensic review carried out by X of the NPIA
      questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
      time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
      acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
      Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
      review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
      to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
      utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
      review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
      interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’.


      (Operation Havern)

      This has been posted on here enough times to paper a wall with it!!!
      You appear to have the needle stuck old stick.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2015, 06:48:07 PM
      This has been posted on here enough times to paper a wall with it!!!
      You appear to have the needle stuck old stick.

      And yet, because some people clearly still don't believe it, it can't have been posted enough ...

      The forensic review carried out by X of the NPIA
      questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
      time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
      acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
      Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
      review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
      to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
      utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
      review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
      interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 18, 2015, 06:50:17 PM
      Insulting saying mccann supporters have a one a dimensional view ?

      No, merely right on the ball.

      Yes, that IS insulting (though I believe the expression you're after is a one dimensional view, not sure why you've twice included the extra "a").  You are implying that people like myself and Davel are total devotees of the McCanns, that we worship them unquestioingly, which is an absurd and thoroughly insulting notion.  I may as well call you a Dog worshipper and tell you that you have a "one a dimensional view" (sic) of them (perhaps you are a Joe Dolce fan, hence the one a dimensional thing?)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 18, 2015, 07:03:06 PM
      Yes, I have done that myself, questioned every aspect of the McCanns, their statements and their behaviour and am quite tolerant of the billions of "only asking questions" that have occurred since Mary 3rd 2007.  Now perhaps you could answer my questions?  Should the alerts not be questioned?  Is there absolutely nothing questionable about them at all in your view?

      "Only ask questions" of the alerts all you like.........( and for how many years now? )

      Just expect responses occasionally.

      O.K.?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 18, 2015, 07:05:20 PM
      And yet, because some people clearly still don't believe it, it can't have been posted enough ...

      The forensic review carried out by X of the NPIA
      questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
      time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
      acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
      Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
      review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
      to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
      utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
      review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
      interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’.


      In fairness to Mr Grime the Official Inquiry found that the main problem in the above case was SIO Harper pushing his own agenda, without adequate supervision, based on unreliable historic witness statements and the word of a builder. It was SIO Harper who pushed for Mr Grime to be Deputy Forensic Service Manager. You can hardly blame the Jersey episode on Grime entirely if at all. Unless of course you are party to information the Inquiry was not. In which case you should be a public spirited citizen and avail them of this information to allow correction.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 18, 2015, 07:07:59 PM
      Yes, I have done that myself, questioned every aspect of the McCanns, their statements and their behaviour and am quite tolerant of the billions of "only asking questions" that have occurred since Mary 3rd 2007.  Now perhaps you could answer my questions?  Should the alerts not be questioned?  Is there absolutely nothing questionable about them at all in your view?

      What is the authority for that number?
      It sounds rather a lot perhaps you will verify with links.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 18, 2015, 07:10:53 PM
      "Only ask questions" of the alerts all you like.........( and for how many years now? )

      Just expect responses occasionally.

      O.K.?
      So you won't answer my questions.  OK.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2015, 07:16:05 PM
      In fairness to Mr Grime the Official Inquiry found that the main problem in the above case was SIO Harper pushing his own agenda, without adequate supervision, based on unreliable historic witness statements and the word of a builder. It was SIO Harper who pushed for Mr Grime to be Deputy Forensic Service Manager. You can hardly blame the Jersey episode on Grime entirely if at all. Unless of course you are party to information the Inquiry was not. In which case you should be a public spirited citizen and avail them of this information to allow correction.

      Neyroud said: 'You certainly don't go rushing in. I must say, I was surprised by how fast Lenny moved.'

      Once Eddie started sniffing, any notion of a strategy disappeared. Karl Harrison, one of the scientists Harper brought in from a UK company, LGC Forensics, summed up the inquiry's approach in a comment to the financial investigators.

      He said: 'We followed the dog. Where the dog barked was dug up.' This, says the interim report, was 'a fundamental error'.


      (Operation Havern)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 18, 2015, 07:38:38 PM
      Neyroud said: 'You certainly don't go rushing in. I must say, I was surprised by how fast Lenny moved.'

      Once Eddie started sniffing, any notion of a strategy disappeared. Karl Harrison, one of the scientists Harper brought in from a UK company, LGC Forensics, summed up the inquiry's approach in a comment to the financial investigators.

      He said: 'We followed the dog. Where the dog barked was dug up.' This, says the interim report, was 'a fundamental error'.


      (Operation Havern)


      Do you believe that Mr Grime actually drove the investigation?
      So what did the official inquiry by Wiltshire Police conclude?
      The basic problem as defined by the official police inquiry seems to be confirmed by your post; the SIO was not up to the job.
      The first sentence in the bit you have posted is not borne out by the police inquiry so which are we to believe?

      I understand your prejudice against Mr Grime and his dawgs  8(0(*
      (emoticon just to show I am lacking in education and erudition)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 07:42:27 PM

      So what expertise did this PJ officer have in the field of alerts by dogs ?

      and if you had observed what dogs do during searching, ignoring targets is not exactly unusual before alerting.

      Just like the PJ 'officer', you and and a few others, need a bit more insight before you make judgements, clearly bent by your support of the mccanns.

      so once again Stephen is looks like you have made this statement up......cite
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 07:50:20 PM
      Another quote from the same PJ report on further action needed...

      To obtain, from the trainers and supervisors of the dogs (ERVD and CSI), further enlightenings about the 'marking' and the friability of their work.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 18, 2015, 08:09:26 PM
      But isn't it possible hypothetically that the dog alerts may be correct, and both the parents completely innocent?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 08:09:52 PM
      so once again Stephen is looks like you have made this statement up......cite

      Have you watched dogs in action dave ???
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 08:11:12 PM
      Another quote from the same PJ report on further action needed...

      To obtain, from the trainers and supervisors of the dogs (ERVD and CSI), further enlightenings about the 'marking' and the friability of their work.

      Now let's try once more.

      When has it been stated the dogs could not have alerted to a body ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 08:12:03 PM
      But isn't it possible hypothetically that the dog alerts may be correct, and both the parents completely innocent?

      of course..but many extravagant claims have been made about the dogs...no false alerts in 200 cases that are looking like basic lies
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 08:12:51 PM
      Have you watched dogs in action dave ???

      so still nothing to support your claim...so you made it up
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 08:13:37 PM
      Now let's try once more.

      When has it been stated the dogs could not have alerted to a body ?

      the question has already been answered...I have stated a million times the dogs could have alerted to a body...but no one knows
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 18, 2015, 08:20:30 PM

      Do you believe that Mr Grime actually drove the investigation?
      So what did the official inquiry by Wiltshire Police conclude?
      The basic problem as defined by the official police inquiry seems to be confirmed by your post; the SIO was not up to the job.
      The first sentence in the bit you have posted is not borne out by the police inquiry so which are we to believe?

      I understand your prejudice against Mr Grime and his dawgs  8(0(*
      (emoticon just to show I am lacking in education and erudition)

      It's not a question of what I believe.

      It's a question of what the facts state ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 08:30:23 PM
      so the bottom line is that the PJ had serious doubts about the abilities of the dogs having seen them in action
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 08:31:35 PM
      so the bottom line is that the PJ had serious doubts about the abilities of the dogs having seen them in action

      How many of the PJ dave.

      Try some names, and then provide their expertise in this field.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 08:33:47 PM
      How many of the PJ dave.

      Try some names, and then provide their expertise in this field.

      tbh Stephen... I think I've had enough of your stupid questions...but keep on ...you are making yourself look quite silly
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 09:06:33 PM
      You always try to disrupt the thread with your childish behaviour...al these posts will be removed....but you just start again the following day...repeated behaviour expecting a different result...insanity according to uncle albert
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 09:27:56 PM
      You have missed the point here....This thread has just discovered something that has not been discussed before...the fact that the videos of the dogs have been heavily edited showing the alerts to be of even less use than we thought.

      ?

      What is "heavily edited" supposed to mean?
      Further, It seems you are very glad they were

       @)(++(*

      But I am glad you support the thread even though it is going nowhere, never has, and never will ,seeing as constant "soundbites", biased opinions and cherry picking do not make any semblance of a debate

      End of the day GRIME is the  seasoned professional with decades of experience, as are other professionals in this area,  he doesn't need your help, or hindrance, really, trust me, he doesn't
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 09:34:41 PM
      ?

      What is "heavily edited" supposed to mean?
      Further, It seems you are very glad they were

       @)(++(*

      But I am glad you support the thread even though it is going nowhere, never has, and never will ,seeing as constant "soundbites", biased opinions and cherry picking do not make any semblance of a debate

      End of the day GRIME is the  seasoned professional with decades of experience, as are other professionals in this area,  he doesn't need your help, or hindrance, really, trust me, he doesn't
      Of course Grime needs no ones help...he has told us what they indicate in guarded words...sweet FA really and this seems to have been confirmed by the PJ report...with of course all the experts agreeing Maddie may still be alive
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 09:36:41 PM
      Of course Grime needs no ones help...he has told us what they indicate in guarded words...sweet FA really and this seems to have been confirmed by the PJ report...with of course all the experts agreeing Maddie may still be alive



      Alive where ?

      and who are these 'experts' exactly ??
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 09:48:48 PM


      Alive where ?

      and who are these 'experts' exactly ??

      Instead of watching stupid TV films try reading the news
      You lack the very basic understanding of this case if you do not realise who has stated maddie may still be alive
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 18, 2015, 09:53:01 PM
      Instead of watching stupid TV films try reading the news
      You lack the very basic understanding of this case if you do not realise who has stated maddie may still be alive

      Well they can have their fantasies.


      Personally I prefer reality.


      How about you ? 8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 10:05:27 PM
      Of course Grime needs no ones help...he has told us what they indicate in guarded words...sweet FA really and this seems to have been confirmed by the PJ report...with of course all the experts agreeing Maddie may still be alive

      Dont be ao ridiculous, Grime has not given any statement about PDL operation
      You haven't got a single clue what HE, the professional, thinks

      He said before it, the cadaver dog alerts indicate cadaver scent, twist it as much as you want, and fill another 300 pages, it will never make any difference, so give your fingers a rest maybe but to your credit you, unlike a few others, have not called him a liar or a fraud
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 18, 2015, 10:09:49 PM
      Imagine your tshirt is signalled by a dog that signals cocaine.
      And let's imagine the dog is right - your tshirt has been in direct contact with a cocaine.
      Does that mean that you have handled cocaine?


       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:14:38 PM
      Dont be ao ridiculous, Grime has not given any statement about PDL operation
      You haven't got a single clue what HE, the professional, thinks

      He said before it, the cadaver dog alerts indicate cadaver scent, twist it as much as you want, and fill another 300 pages, it will never make any difference, so give your fingers a rest maybe but to your credit you, unlike a few others, have not called him a liar or a fraud

      Grime has given statements re PDL...he has also answered questions posed by the PJ...he has told us what he thinks...

      do you realise that when you describe my opinions are biased ...that is based on your own opinion which judging by your criteria ...is biased
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 10:15:37 PM
      Imagine your tshirt is signalled by a dog that signals cocaine.
      And let's imagine the dog is right - your tshirt has been in direct contact with a cocaine.
      Does that mean that you have handled cocaine?
      No it doesn't but its pretty unlucky if I  was living in a flat where someone did and then I got accused of handling not just for living there but for other reasons
      eg
      a missing child and  cadaver dog alerting ONLY there

      So the cadaver scent is due to?

      Many have offered scenarios, what do you think?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 10:16:49 PM
      Grime has given statements re PDL...he has also answered questions posed by the PJ...he has told us what he thinks...

      do you realise that when you describe my opinions are biased ...that is based on your own opinion which judging by your criteria ...is biased

      but you are biased, im open minded but will not ignore relevant evidence, and there is no way anyone can assert cadaver dog findings mean nothing at all in this case, period
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:17:26 PM
      Imagine your tshirt is signalled by a dog that signals cocaine.
      And let's imagine the dog is right - your tshirt has been in direct contact with a cocaine.
      Does that mean that you have handled cocaine?


      I have posted before...about 15 yrs ago I was signalled by the drug dogs in Sydney airport...I now realise what was going on having seen them in action on tv....I was searched and questioned but had had no direct contact with any drugs...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:18:26 PM
      but you are biased, im open minded but will not ignore relevant evidence

      no...I'm open minded and will not ignore any relevant evidence...you are not..Grime has never said the dogs alerted to cadaver odour as you recently claimed... 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:20:27 PM
      but you are biased, im open minded but will not ignore relevant evidence, and there is no way anyone can assert cadaver dog findings mean nothing at all in this case, period

      there is and I have...based on all the evidence...
      so you tell me what the alerts actually tell us
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:23:22 PM
      No it doesn't but its pretty unlucky if I  was living in a flat where someone did and then I got accused of handling not just for living there but for other reasons
      eg
      a missing child and  cadaver dog alerting ONLY there

      So the cadaver scent is due to?

      Many have offered scenarios, what do you think?

      who says the dogs alerted to cadaver scent..Grime hasn't
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 10:23:30 PM
      no...I'm open minded and will not ignore any relevant evidence...you are not

      I will be the judge of my own thinking thanks very much

      You ARE biased and its proven based on many of your own posts which have nothing to do with any evidence at all but modcodd,ing the Mccanns as IF they are innocent rather than just presumed to be

      The dog evidence is a thorn in your side, not my fault

       8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 18, 2015, 10:25:50 PM
      Imagine your tshirt is signalled by a dog that signals cocaine.
      And let's imagine the dog is right - your tshirt has been in direct contact with a cocaine.
      Does that mean that you have handled cocaine?

      Yes that is definitely possible, Pegasus. You would only need something as small and innocent as a contaminated, five pound note received in change and placed into your wallet. It would be on your person and if your hands touched any clothing the scent of the drug would be there too.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:27:27 PM
      I will be the judge of my own thinking thanks very much

      You ARE biased and its proven based on many of your own posts which have nothing to do with any evidence at all but modcodd,ing the Mccanns as IF they are innocent rather than just presumed to be

      The dog evidence is a thorn in your side, not my fault

       8)--))

      And I will be the judge of my opinion..all my conclusions are based on evidence...the alerts are meaningless according to the evidence..

      so tell me if you can..
      #
      what do the alerts tell us
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 10:27:53 PM
      who says the dogs alerted to cadaver scent..Grime hasn't
      Yes he has even if you want him to be a literary agent and get every letter word sentence and ohrase right....he's a cadaver dog handler...he said his dogs suggested it was cadaver scent

      why does it bother you so much that you would expend so much time and energy saying he didnt really mean that LOL
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:29:55 PM
      Yes he has even if you want him to be a literary agent and get every letter word sentence and ohrase right....he's a cadaver dog handler...he said his dogs suggested it was cadaver scent

      why does it bother you so much that you would expend so much time and energy saying he didnt really mean that LOL

      so he says the alerts are suggestive of cadaver scent...not that they are cadaver scent..can you not see the difference..perhaps you can't because you are biased
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 10:31:37 PM
      And I will be the judge of my opinion..all my conclusions are based on evidence...the alerts are meaningless according to the evidence..

      so tell me if you can..
      #
      what do the alerts tell us

      I wish  you well in the future tryng to prove forever the dog alerts mean nothing at all but my time is worth more than arguing your rubbish , bye now


       &8#£%


       8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 10:35:08 PM
      so he says the alerts are suggestive of cadaver scent...not that they are cadaver scent..can you not see the difference..perhaps you can't because you are biased

      THEY SUGGEST = THEY INDICATE = THE DOG THINKS ITS CADAVER ODOUR

      No one suggested it was anything else



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:35:54 PM
      I wish  you well in the future tryng to prove forever the dog alerts mean nothing at all but my time is worth more than arguing your rubbish , bye now


       &8#£%


       8)-)))

      I don't have to prove anything .......I just point out where you are wrong... I post what Grime has said...you post what he means. You have absolutely no way of knowing what Grime means so your post is just your opinion...which is biased. My post is 100% accurate relating what he said...evidenced from the files
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:38:17 PM
      THEY SUGGEST = THEY INDICATE = THE DOG THINKS ITS CADAVER ODOUR

      No one suggested it was anything else

      Jesus wept, YOURE ON IGNORE for being dim as well as everything else

      so now you are telling us what the dog thinks...very entertaining..not only can you read Grime's mind you can read the dog's mind too
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:44:44 PM
      THEY SUGGEST = THEY INDICATE = THE DOG THINKS ITS CADAVER ODOUR


      sorry but there do not appear to be any facts in your posts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 18, 2015, 10:51:31 PM

      There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:53:55 PM
      There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      that's the important line...without forensic confirmation the alert cannot be confirmed...therefore they are not confirmed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 18, 2015, 10:57:10 PM
      that's the important line...without forensic confirmation the alert cannot be confirmed...therefore they are not confirmed

      I don't think you actually mean that!
      We probably know what you mean but it isn't what you said.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 10:57:20 PM
      There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      Thanks Anna for showing there may be various reasons for a cadaverscent alert but not that there wasnt one which many are at pains to portray
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 10:59:05 PM
      I don't think you actually mean that!
      We probably know what you mean but it isn't what you said.

      yes I  do mean that...and it is what I posted
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 18, 2015, 10:59:32 PM
      If  a kilo of cannabis contacted my slacks, it makes a huge difference....
      Was I was wearing them at the time of contact?
      Or was I not wearing them, and not even in the same building, at the time of contact?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 11:01:36 PM
      Thanks Anna for showing there may be various reasons for a cadaverscent alert but not that there wasnt one which many are at pains to portray

      no...Grime says in order to confirm the alert there must be forensic evidence...so there may be an alert...but to confirm it is to cadaver odour there must be forensic evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 18, 2015, 11:32:36 PM
      You do not understand the basics or are twisting them

      Forensic evidence ie blood by Keela alerts  cannot confirm (corroborate) a cadaver scent
      It might
      There is NOTHING that can confirm a cadaver scent alert per se, only support it, now learn this fact , digest it  and dont converse with me again

      That's right
      the alerts are not and cannot be confirmed
      Therefore no one can state that they are definitely to cadaver
      Grime has confirmed this
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 18, 2015, 11:43:27 PM
      A cadaver might, or a body part, don't you think?

      THAT goes without saying
      Stop being facetious
      This is a case of REMNANT body scent

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 19, 2015, 12:01:30 AM
      THAT goes without saying
      Stop being facetious
      This is a case of REMNANT body scent
      I wasn't being facetious, merely pointing out the error in your statement. 

      Without concrete evidence such as body parts or a cadaver there is no way of knowing for sure what the dog was alerting to.   We know that cadaver dogs have given multiple false alerts before and so it is possible that the dog falsely alerted in this case.  There is no reason to suppose that Eddie was in some way superior to all other dogs that have ever existed before - the say-so of his owner and chief beneficiary is not sufficient proof of his superiority.  The dog may have been alerting to a cadaver, but then again maybe not.  Who knows? This can be argued about for the next 100 years but doing so will achieve nothing of any merit whatsoever. 

      Now, these are factual statements and you can huff and puff until you're blue in the face, nothing will alter the veracity of what I have just written.  Ta ta.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 12:58:03 AM
      If  a kilo of cannabis contacted my slacks, it makes a huge difference....
      Was I was wearing them at the time of contact?
      Or was I not wearing them, and not even in the same building, at the time of contact?

      You believe it was cross contamination Pegasus? How?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 07:32:10 AM
      Imagine your tshirt is signalled by a dog that signals cocaine.
      And let's imagine the dog is right - your tshirt has been in direct contact with a cocaine.
      Does that mean that you have handled cocaine?

      A bit of trivia:
      The discovery that cocaine is so prevalent in U.S. banknotes has a legal application that reactions by drug-sniffing dogs is not immediately cause for arrest of persons or confiscation of banknotes. (The drug content is too low for prosecution but not too low to trigger response to drug-sniffing dogs.),[citation needed] though this has been contested legally in a number of U.S. states[10]
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_currency
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 08:07:41 AM

      Topic. Please.  And cut the insults.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 19, 2015, 08:08:48 AM
      And round and round it goes ad finitum.

      And still the police authorities trust cadaver dogs to find dead bodies.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 08:10:51 AM
      And round and round it goes ad finitum.

      And still the police authorities trust cadaver dogs to find dead bodies.

      of course they do..that's what they are trained for..

      as you are promoting corbyn...I must say you must be a Cameron supporter as corbyn will  make the labour party even more unelectable than they are now
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 09:07:51 AM

      Very amusing.  Back in a minute to delete Off Topic Posts.  Make the most of it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 09:41:31 AM
      I was checking Kate's account of doggy film show.

      There's one scene that I don't recall offhand without wading through it all again.

      In footage of the apartment next door to ours, one of the dogs begn to root in the corner of a room near a piece of furniture. PC Grime summoned the dog and they left the flat.

      Another interesting snippet, prior to the "film show":

      Now Ricardo was giving me his spiel about the dogs. 'These dogs have a 100 per cent success rate,' he said, waving an A4 document in front of me. 'Two hundred cases and they've never failed (...)'


      Amaral said something similar in one of his interviews (which I posted recently), except that in his version, the dogs alerts had resulted in 200 convictions...

      Despite Grime's unfortunate lack of clarity in originally stating "cases", he was clearly stating that Eddie had not reacted to meat-based foodstuffs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 10:05:51 AM
      I was checking Kate's account of doggy film show.

      There's one scene that I don't recall offhand without wading through it all again.

      In footage of the apartment next door to ours, one of the dogs begn to root in the corner of a room near a piece of furniture. PC Grime summoned the dog and they left the flat.

      Another interesting snippet, prior to the "film show":

      Now Ricardo was giving me his spiel about the dogs. 'These dogs have a 100 per cent success rate,' he said, waving an A4 document in front of me. 'Two hundred cases and they've never failed (...)'


      Amaral said something similar in one of his interviews (which I posted recently), except that in his version, the dogs alerts had resulted in 200 convictions...

      Despite Grime's unfortunate lack of clarity in originally stating "cases", he was clearly stating that Eddie had not reacted to meat-based foodstuffs.

      There's no reason why Eddie (trained on the scent of pig carcasses) would not react to the remnants of a joint of pork.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 10:09:50 AM
      There's no reason why Eddie (trained on the scent of pig carcasses) would not react to the remnants of a joint of pork.

      Really.

      Can you also tell me how cooked pig meat would differ biochemically from an uncooked source ?

      and what sources of pig meat were found to be  present at any of the sites  ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 19, 2015, 10:14:27 AM
      I was checking Kate's account of doggy film show.

      There's one scene that I don't recall offhand without wading through it all again.

      In footage of the apartment next door to ours, one of the dogs begn to root in the corner of a room near a piece of furniture. PC Grime summoned the dog and they left the flat.

      Another interesting snippet, prior to the "film show":

      Now Ricardo was giving me his spiel about the dogs. 'These dogs have a 100 per cent success rate,' he said, waving an A4 document in front of me. 'Two hundred cases and they've never failed (...)'


      Amaral said something similar in one of his interviews (which I posted recently), except that in his version, the dogs alerts had resulted in 200 convictions...

      Despite Grime's unfortunate lack of clarity in originally stating "cases", he was clearly stating that Eddie had not reacted to meat-based foodstuffs.
      Does that mean that Eddie would have been no good detecting human flesh in the home of a cannibal killer, if he'd cooked the flesh first?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 10:17:29 AM
      Really.

      Can you also tell me how cooked pig meat would differ biochemically from an uncooked source ?

      and what sources of pig meat were found to be  present at any of the sites  ?

      I normally keep my pork chops and bacon rashers in my wardrobe, don't you?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 10:19:29 AM
      I normally keep my pork chops and bacon rashers in my wardrobe, don't you?

      Absolutely the best place.

      After all, what use are refrigerators ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 10:24:00 AM
      Absolutely the best place.

      After all, what use are refrigerators ?

      None.

      I see this is going to be another twilight zone veering, Eddie reacting to the remnants of a joint of pork. Out of here!!

      Have a nice day.

       @)(++(*

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 10:26:02 AM
      None.

      I see this is going to be another twilight zone veering, Eddie reacting to the remnants of a joint of pork. Out of here!!

      Have a nice day.

       @)(++(*

      Likewise. 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 10:27:12 AM
      There's no reason why Eddie (trained on the scent of pig carcasses) would not react to the remnants of a joint of pork.

      Not sure. There is an insistence on training on decomposing pig (i.e. NOT for human consumption). We'd be very sick indeed if we ate decomposing pork.

      It's not clear however, whether he (or other similarly trained dogs) would react to a discarded week-old uncooked - or even cooked - pork chop forgotten in a rubbish bin.

      They may well do, but a visual inspection would presumably determine that the cause of the alert was irrelevant to the investigation and move on.


      The U.K. has also approximately six Police dog teams that have been trained
      exclusively on decomposing pig remains not for human consumption
      as
      specialist dogs to work off the leash to locate human remains in a wider
      variety of scenarios.

      (...)

      The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
      stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
      introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
      ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
      ever present in the background environment.
      Therefore the dog would
      remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
      eating bacon sandwiches.

      Grime report
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 19, 2015, 10:28:00 AM
      I normally keep my pork chops and bacon rashers in my wardrobe, don't you?

      But we don't know that Eddie was alerting to the wardrobe - because as Martin Grime has told us - the scent can drift and it's origin is not necessarily at the place where he barked.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 10:29:39 AM
      But we don't know that Eddie was alerting to the wardrobe - because as Martin Grime has told us - the scent can drift and it's origin is not necessarily at the place where he barked.

      'drift' ???

       8(*(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 19, 2015, 10:31:14 AM
      Not sure. There is an insistence on training on decomposing pig (i.e. NOT for human consumption). We'd be very sick indeed if we ate decomposing pork.

      It's not clear however, whether he (or other similarly trained dogs) would react to a discarded week-old uncooked - or even cooked - pork chop forgotten in a rubbish bin.

      They may well do, but a visual inspection would presumably determine that the cause of the alert was irrelevant to the investigation and move on.


      The U.K. has also approximately six Police dog teams that have been trained
      exclusively on decomposing pig remains not for human consumption
      as
      specialist dogs to work off the leash to locate human remains in a wider
      variety of scenarios.

      (...)

      The initial training of the dog was conducted using human blood and
      stil born decomposing piglets. The importance of this is that the dog is
      introduced to the scent of a decomposing body NOT FOODSTUFF. This
      ensures that the dog disregards the 'bacon sandwich' and 'kebab' etc that is
      ever present in the background environment.
      Therefore the dog would
      remain efficient searching for a cadaver in a café where the clientele were sat
      eating bacon sandwiches.

      Grime report

      From memory so am not absolutely sure, but didn't Eddie alert to the remnants of pork which had been soaked in petrol and 'cooked'?


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 10:32:58 AM
      Does that mean that Eddie would have been no good detecting human flesh in the home of a cannibal killer, if he'd cooked the flesh first?

      LOL

      I was wondering about that as well.

      If freshly cooked and frozen, perhaps not...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 10:35:29 AM
      From memory so am not absolutely sure, but didn't Eddie alert to the remnants of pork which had been soaked in petrol and 'cooked'?

      Yes.

      In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.


      It's not clear if that was from a decomposing piglet or not, though.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 10:40:55 AM
      From memory so am not absolutely sure, but didn't Eddie alert to the remnants of pork which had been soaked in petrol and 'cooked'?

      In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in

      petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.


      (Martin Grime in his profile).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 10:44:50 AM
      I think we need to remember that any Pig Meat used in training will have come from Ungutted Pig.  Pig left with intestines in situ while it decomposed.
      So let's cut the pork chop jokes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 19, 2015, 10:55:48 AM
      I think we need to remember that any Pig Meat used in training will have come from Ungutted Pig.  Pig left with intestines in situ while it decomposed.
      So let's cut the pork chop jokes.

      Unless the McCanns had purchased tripe and chitterlings..........(or are those delicacies from cattle?)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 11:07:25 AM
      Unless the McCanns had purchased tripe and chitterlings..........(or are those delicacies from cattle?)

      The same decomposition would apply.  Unless you fancy eating tripe from ungutted cows.  But I don't think you can get at tripe without first gutting the cow.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 19, 2015, 11:08:23 AM
      We're all guessing aren't we?  None of us has the faintest clue what might trigger an alert, and frankly I doubt even the handler can say hand on heart what might potentially trigger an alert. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 11:08:37 AM
      But we don't know that Eddie was alerting to the wardrobe - because as Martin Grime has told us - the scent can drift and it's origin is not necessarily at the place where he barked.

      And cadavers drift in and out of that apartment all the time. Reminds me of the perfect murder episode - I couldn't believe were were going to believe Kate Prout was dead on the say so of a dog (Eddie).

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 11:13:43 AM
      I think we need to remember that any Pig Meat used in training will have come from Ungutted Pig.  Pig left with intestines in situ while it decomposed.
      So let's cut the pork chop jokes.

      I'm seriously wondering though.

      If bits of whole decomposing (ungutted) piglets are exclusively used, then why would the dogs also alert to dried blood from a living person? Distinct training might be one explanation, but does it make sense that if some poor sod had been mutilated prior to death (e.g., a finger chopped off)  that the dog wouldn't alert to those physical remains?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 11:14:41 AM
      And cadavers drift in and out of that apartment all the time. Reminds me of the perfect murder episode - I couldn't believe were were going to believe Kate Prout was dead on the say so of a dog (Eddie).


      Eddie never did find Kate Prout's body.  And it was there all of the time.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 11:17:09 AM
      I'm seriously wondering though.

      If bits of whole decomposing (ungutted) piglets are exclusively used, then why would the dogs also alert to dried blood from a living person? Distinct training might be one explanation, but does it make sense that if some poor sod had been mutilated prior to death (e.g., a finger chopped off)  that the dog wouldn't alert to those physical remains?

      Blood, I expect.  That's why Eddie was no good as a Cadaver Dog.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 11:33:17 AM
      Eddie never did find Kate Prout's body.  And it was there all of the time.

      That ended up being a no body murder case and the police got the evidence required to convict her husband of murder without the need for the body. If SY believe Maddy is dead then this could be the same - a no body murder case.

      "In order to prove that the child is dead it is not necessary to have a body. There is no point in saying that the child is dead, or that the child is alive, what we need is to work the investigation and carry it out to the end, something that was not done." (GA)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 19, 2015, 11:43:39 AM
      Blood, I expect.  That's why Eddie was no good as a Cadaver Dog.

      I thought you wanted to cut the jokes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 11:44:55 AM
      That ended up being a no body murder case and the police got the evidence required to convict her husband of murder without the need for the body. If SY believe Maddy is dead then this could be the same - a no body murder case.

      "In order to prove that the child is dead it is not necessary to have a body. There is no point in saying that the child is dead, or that the child is alive, what we need is to work the investigation and carry it out to the end, something that was not done." (GA)

      Why do you keep quoting Goncalo Amaral.

      His incompetence is manifest and proven.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 11:45:41 AM
      That ended up being a no body murder case and the police got the evidence required to convict her husband of murder without the need for the body. If SY believe Maddy is dead then this could be the same - a no body murder case.

      "In order to prove that the child is dead it is not necessary to have a body. There is no point in saying that the child is dead, or that the child is alive, what we need is to work the investigation and carry it out to the end, something that was not done." (GA)

      Ah, but Goncalo Amaral was accusing The McCanns.  Even with a body there would be no proof of that.  Although Stranger DNA might prove to be interesting.

      Amaral is simply trying to convict two people against whom he has no evidence.  Never did have, and never will have.
      He is a busted flush, and probably always was.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 11:46:48 AM
      Why do you keep quoting Goncalo Amaral.

      His incompetence is manifest and proven.

      Well what a surprise comment.

      However, he has nothing on the parents responsible for this whole case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 11:46:55 AM
      I thought you wanted to cut the jokes.

      My comment was no joke.  Just a logical explanation.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 11:51:07 AM
      My comment was no joke.  Just a logical explanation.

      Just your opinion, as others express theirs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 19, 2015, 11:51:40 AM
      You believe it was cross contamination Pegasus? How?
      Hypothetically position a bar of gold on a shelf, under a pile of 40 clothing items, and list the items it is in contact with.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 11:57:42 AM
      Eddie never did find Kate Prout's body.  And it was there all of the time.

      276-acre Redhill Farm at Redmarley.

      (http://www.buildstore.co.uk/findingland/images/Sizes/option2_1.jpeg)

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 12:02:55 PM
      Just your opinion, as others express theirs.

      Sorry.  I don't understand.  Eddie and Keela reacted to blood.  This is not an opinion.  It is a fact.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 12:06:33 PM
      276-acre Redhill Farm at Redmarley.

      (http://www.buildstore.co.uk/findingland/images/Sizes/option2_1.jpeg)


      So did they use the dogs to search the rest of the farm?  And if not, why not?  That's where she was killed and buried.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 12:10:14 PM
      That ended up being a no body murder case and the police got the evidence required to convict her husband of murder without the need for the body. If SY believe Maddy is dead then this could be the same - a no body murder case.

      "In order to prove that the child is dead it is not necessary to have a body. There is no point in saying that the child is dead, or that the child is alive, what we need is to work the investigation and carry it out to the end, something that was not done." (GA)

      Well, erm, no. The first case of a successful conviction in Portugal in the absence of a body and any significant evidence beyond a "reconstruction" in dubious circumstances was... ?

      When asked what his next steps would have been, he'd said that he was in the process of getting members of the Smith family over again (he doesn't specify which members, nor is there any trace that he was organising it in the files) and to carry on looking for an elusive freezer.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 19, 2015, 12:20:34 PM
      Well, erm, no. The first case of a successful conviction in Portugal in the absence of a body and any significant evidence beyond a "reconstruction" in dubious circumstances was... ?

      When asked what his next steps would have been, he'd said that he was in the process of getting members of the Smith family over again (he doesn't specify which members, nor is there any trace that he was organising it in the files) and to carry on looking for an elusive freezer.

      Well, his potty ideas worked the first time, so obviously he was going to try it on again.  Fortunately The Ambassador was on to his tricks.

      And we don't have any proof that The Smiths had agreed to go.  Mrs. Smith wasn't having it.  We do know that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 12:34:15 PM
      Hypothetically position a bar of gold on a shelf, under a pile of 40 clothing items, and list the items it is in contact with.

      I got it! 

      There is also one common denominator, which hasn't been considered........ If it was an alert to the scent of a cadaver scent.

      It would have touched clothing, which in turn would touch the wardrobe and most likely the plant on the balcony. it contained some of the chemical elements that make up of cadaverine .......

      What do you think it could be?

      Until I finish my calculations, I will leave you to ponder the possibilities.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 12:58:24 PM
      I got it! 

      There is also one common denominator, which hasn't been considered........ If it was an alert to the scent of a cadaver scent.

      It would have touched clothing, which in turn would touch the wardrobe and most likely the plant on the balcony. it contained some of the chemical elements that make up of cadaverine .......

      What do you think it could be?

      Until I finish my calculations, I will leave you to ponder the possibilities.



      Question: Was Eddie trained not to alert to wee-wee or to other accidents on laundry when in work mode or not? Had his clothing test been used before or not?

      As Grime was never asked, no reply was given.

      If Eddie was trained to ignore such accidents, ok, but then the next question is why Eddie alerted to two items of clothing: the blue shorts and the red airplaine T-shirt.

      No explanation has been given as to why Eddie appears to have reacted to the blue shorts, yet the shorts weren't on the list establsihed or noted by the PJ. The red T-shirt does appear on the list, with no explanation as to the distinction.

      Why didn't Grime keep a note of which clothing items corresponded to a correct alert? Or if he had, what did he do with it? If ever there had been a court case, he could have been asked to testify (if such evidence were allowed).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 01:00:51 PM
      I was checking Kate's account of doggy film show.

      There's one scene that I don't recall offhand without wading through it all again.

      In footage of the apartment next door to ours, one of the dogs begn to root in the corner of a room near a piece of furniture. PC Grime summoned the dog and they left the flat.

      Another interesting snippet, prior to the "film show":

      Now Ricardo was giving me his spiel about the dogs. 'These dogs have a 100 per cent success rate,' he said, waving an A4 document in front of me. 'Two hundred cases and they've never failed (...)'


      Amaral said something similar in one of his interviews (which I posted recently), except that in his version, the dogs alerts had resulted in 200 convictions...

      Despite Grime's unfortunate lack of clarity in originally stating "cases", he was clearly stating that Eddie had not reacted to meat-based foodstuffs.

      I believe it may be here, along with the kebab or meat on a bone, Carana. about 39.20

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 01:16:08 PM


      Question: Was Eddie trained not to alert to wee-wee or to other accidents on laundry when in work mode or not? Had his clothing test been used before or not?

      As Grime was never asked, no reply was given.

      If Eddie was trained to ignore such accidents, ok, but then the next question is why Eddie alerted to two items of clothing: the blue shorts and the red airplaine T-shirt.

      No explanation has been given as to why Eddie appears to have reacted to the blue shorts, yet the shorts weren't on the list establsihed or noted by the PJ. The red T-shirt does appear on the list, with no explanation as to the distinction.

      Why didn't Grime keep a note of which clothing items corresponded to a correct alert? Or if he had, what did he do with it? If ever there had been a court case, he could have been asked to testify (if such evidence were allowed).

      These cloths were apparently on a dirty garage floor before being boxed up again and taken to the Gym(if we are to believe his book)

      Not sure about the urine......It does contain trace elements of putricine. The twins nappies and pants would have traces.

      cadaverine and putrescine contribute, in very small parts, to the smell of urine.
      Excerpt:
      They also turn up in other bodily fluids - both contribute to the odour of semen, along with the related (and aptly named) polyamines spermine and spermidine, which are made by adding extra chains of three carbons, each ending with another amine group, to one or both ends of a putrescine molecule.

      Clothing alerted too(all from one box, therefore in close proximity to each other).
      I would have thought that there is a list somewhere, but it seems to have selected only a few. Reason ???
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 01:27:53 PM
      What are you waffling on about? Eddie finds evidence of death not if a child has done a pee on the floor. No blood was on the clothes!

      The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen, sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. (Martin Grime)

      Big Letters for people who can't understand.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 01:28:50 PM
      I believe it may be here, along with the kebab or meat on a bone, Carana. about 39.20


      Many thanks, Anna.

      I could no longer be sure about my recollections of searches of other apartments. I didn't dream this, after all.

      The amount of times he was called away before finishing his sniffing expedition remains to be explained...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 01:31:42 PM
      What are you waffling on about? Eddie finds evidence of death not if a child has done a pee on the floor. No blood was on the clothes!

      The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. (Martin Grime)

      We know that, PF. However, you are quoting his comments about KEELA, not Eddie.

      Read the phrase that you didn't highlight.

      Here we go:

      The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 01:34:56 PM
      You don't know that because you think Eddie is alerting to semen, urine, sweat and god knows what else which is not true! He will only alert to these substances if they contain BLOOD. No blood was on the clothes so the police know what he was alerting to.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 01:37:48 PM
      You don't know that because you think Eddie is alerting to semen, urine, sweat and god knows what else which is not true! He will only alert to these substances if they contain BLOOD. No blood was on the clothes so the police know what he was alerting to.

      Read above.

      I think that you've got confused.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 01:48:13 PM
      Search Asset Profile

      'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 19, 2015, 01:51:44 PM
      yes I  do mean that...and it is what I posted

      Well that is a revelation!

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 01:53:24 PM
      Keela

      Taking into account the signals of CSI, could the dog alert to other biological fluids''
      The dog that alerts to human blood is trained exclusively for this purpose, and includes its components, plasma, red cells, white cells and platelets. Given the
      nature of the training, the dog will not alert to urine, saliva, semen sweat, nasal secretion, vaginal secretion or human skin unless these are mixed with blood. The components of blood are approximately:
      Red cells 40-50%
      Plasma 55% (of which 95% is water)
      White cells ef
      Platelets
      DNA can only be removed from white cells.
      This would suggest that, of the samples signalled by the dog looking for human blood, approximately 5% are available for DNA tests.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 01:56:09 PM
      These cloths were apparently on a dirty garage floor before being boxed up again and taken to the Gym(if we are to believe his book)

      Not sure about the urine......It does contain trace elements of putricine. The twins nappies and pants would have traces.

      cadaverine and putrescine contribute, in very small parts, to the smell of urine.
      Excerpt:
      They also turn up in other bodily fluids - both contribute to the odour of semen, along with the related (and aptly named) polyamines spermine and spermidine, which are made by adding extra chains of three carbons, each ending with another amine group, to one or both ends of a putrescine molecule.

      Clothing alerted too(all from one box, therefore in close proximity to each other).
      I would have thought that there is a list somewhere, but it seems to have selected only a few. Reason ???

      Re the unpacking in the dirty garage... there seems to be an ambiguity in that due to lost-in-translation issues. The original doesn't actually say that the clothes were unpacked, but describes the situation as being where they were to be unpacked (i.e. intention). Whether they actually were or not, prior to unpacking in the gym is anyone's guess. No idea.

      Amaral was in a restaurant at the time (according to his own account), so he wasn't actually there.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 02:01:43 PM
      Re the unpacking in the dirty garage... there seems to be an ambiguity in that due to lost-in-translation issues. The original doesn't actually say that the clothes were unpacked, but describes the situation as being where they were to be unpacked (i.e. intention). Whether they actually were or not, prior to unpacking in the gym is anyone's guess. No idea.

      Amaral was in a restaurant at the time (according to his own account), so he wasn't actually there.

      Whether they were elsewhere before the Gym or not, does not really come into the question regarding Urine scent on garments and the close proximity of the alerted items in the Gym. Best we just ignore the book.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 02:06:34 PM
      Whether they were elsewhere before the Gym or not, does not really come into the question regarding Urine scent on garments and the close proximity of the alerted items in the Gym. Best we just ignore the book.

      It's not just the book. My earlier question was whether it had ever been established that Eddie had been trained to ignore wee-wee (or other irrelevant) mishaps.

      Grime was never questioned about this.

      So... there's no way of knowing one way or the other.

      I still find it odd that he didn't have an established list of which clothes constituted confirmed alerts by Eddie...

      Had these skills been successfully demonstrated before or was this a new potential one?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 02:15:08 PM
      It's not just the book. My earlier question was whether it had ever been established that Eddie had been trained to ignore wee-wee (or other irrelevant) mishaps.

      Grime was never questioned about this.

      So... there's no way of knowing one way or the other.

      I still find it odd that he didn't have an established list of which clothes constituted confirmed alerts by Eddie...

      Had these skills been successfully demonstrated before or was this a new potential one?

      I have already posted that, Carana.
      Urine is a bodily fluid, is it not? And it contains a trace amount of putricine.

      Search Asset Profile

      'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 02:22:15 PM
      I have already posted that, Carana.
      Urine is a bodily fluid, is it not? And it contains a trace amount of putricine.

      Search Asset Profile

      'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html

      Yes, I know, but it hasn't been established which decomposing body fluids from a living person Eddie may have been trained to ignore aside from blood.

      There's simply no definitive answer to that either way, as no one seems to have asked Grime. Unless anyone finds a case in which Grime has testified in court that Eddie would not react to decomposing urine, semen, vaginal fluids, sputum, nasal secretions, etc., then I don't see why it should be assumed that alerts to such substances are unlikely.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 02:35:50 PM
      The cite that I posted, does not exclude any bodily fluids. So it appears that Eddie was not conditioned to ignore any body fluids.

       Like you, I have found nothing further to confirm, whether his training included being desensitised to anything. With the exception of road kill and bacon sandwiches, that is.

      My conclusion would have to be .......He could have alerted to urine.

      However although this could contribute, to my thoughts of the common denominator, It is not what I have in mind.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 19, 2015, 02:40:11 PM
      Yes, I know, but it hasn't been established which decomposing body fluids from a living person Eddie may have been trained to ignore aside from blood.

      There's simply no definitive answer to that either way, as no one seems to have asked Grime. Unless anyone finds a case in which Grime has testified in court that Eddie would not react to decomposing urine, semen, vaginal fluids, sputum, nasal secretions, etc., then I don't see why it should be assumed that alerts to such substances are unlikely.

      Eddie was trained to recognise cadaver scent. Not all the constituents of this scent are scientifically identified, but because of the way a dog's nose works, they can identify each individual consituent. They alert when all the different compounds which make up cadaver scent are present. In other words, they don't alert to certain bits of the scent, only to all of it.


      CADAVER SCENT

      The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
      compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
      receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
      considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
      yet be replicated in laboratory processes
      . Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 02:53:46 PM
      Eddie was trained to recognise cadaver scent. Not all the constituents of this scent are scientifically identified, but because of the way a dog's nose works, they can identify each individual consituent. They alert when all the different compounds which make up cadaver scent are present. In other words, they don't alert to certain bits of the scent, only to all of it.


      CADAVER SCENT

      The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
      compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
      receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
      considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
      yet be replicated in laboratory processes
      . Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time
      Do you have cite for that post, Please, G?

      "Volatile organic compounds" None of us know what it is that the dogs alert too in a cadaver scent.
      Where does it say that they can not alert to part of the makeup of a Cadaver scent.

      The scent can not be replicated in a laboratory, therefore it is impossible to know what the scent consists of, or indeed which parts of a cadaver scent, the dogs recognise and alert too.

      Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 02:57:46 PM
      Do you have cite for that post, Please, G?

      "Volatile organic compounds" None of us know what it is that the dogs alert too in a cadaver scent.
      Where does it say that they can not alert to part of the makeup of a Cadaver scent.

      The scent can not be replicated in a laboratory, therefore it is impossible to know what the scent consists of, or indeed which parts of a cadaver scent, the dogs recognise and alert too.

      Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time


      ???
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 03:08:07 PM

      ???

      Ah! Now, I am sure that you will understand this, Stephen.

      The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

      Putrescine and cadaverine are chemically very similar: they are both diamines. Both have short hydrocarbon chains with a primary amine group on either end. The difference is that putrescine has four carbon atoms in the chain between the two amines (its systematic name is butane-1,4-diamine), whereas there are five in cadaverine - or pentane-1,5-diamine.

      http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 03:19:06 PM
      Ah! Now, I am sure that you will understand this, Stephen.

      The smell of a decomposing body is made up of all sorts of interesting compounds, but amines and sulfurous molecules make up the stinkier end of the spectrum. Most of those amines come from breakdown of the proteins in the corpse, and two of them have such fetid odours that they have been named putrescine - after the process of putrefaction - and cadaverine, after the Latin-derived word for a corpse: cadaver.

      Putrescine and cadaverine are chemically very similar: they are both diamines. Both have short hydrocarbon chains with a primary amine group on either end. The difference is that putrescine has four carbon atoms in the chain between the two amines (its systematic name is butane-1,4-diamine), whereas there are five in cadaverine - or pentane-1,5-diamine.

      http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/podcast/CIIEcompounds/transcripts/putrescine.asp

      I do know know already Anna.

      Trust me on that.

      There are many compounds which are present from decomposition and the result largely of hydrolysis of 'proteins' and subsequent  decarboxylation of the among no acids produced

      My question referred to the mentionng of Urine.

      I will be more specific next time when I raise a question  mark.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 19, 2015, 03:25:05 PM
      I do know know already Anna.

      Trust me on that.

      There are many compounds which are present from decomposition and the result largely of hydrolysis of 'proteins' and subsequent  decarboxylation of the among no acids produced

      My question referred to the mentionng of Urine.

      I will be more specific next time when I raise a question  mark.

      Perhaps you mean to say "amino acids"?

        8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 03:27:34 PM
      I do know know already Anna.

      Trust me on that.

      There are many compounds which are present from decomposition and the result largely of hydrolysis of 'proteins' and subsequent  decarboxylation of the among no acids produced

      My question referred to the mentionng of Urine.

      I will be more specific next time when I raise a question  mark.

      OK, Thanks Stephen.
      Did I mention urine in that post?  or did You answer the wrong post.........I do it all the time.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 03:41:21 PM
      I do know know already Anna.

      Trust me on that.

      There are many compounds which are present from decomposition and the result largely of hydrolysis of 'proteins' and subsequent  decarboxylation of the among no acids produced

      My question referred to the mentionng of Urine.

      I will be more specific next time when I raise a question  mark.

      Introduction

      The decay process of vertebrates begins rapidly after death (i.e. four minutes after death) [1] and leads to the release of postmortem compounds in the ecosystem [2]–[3]. These cadaveric compounds, mainly volatile organic compounds (i.e. VOCs), are by- or end-products of the decay process [2], [4]. They come from the catabolism of the four major categories of biological macromolecules in living organisms: proteins, nucleic acid, lipids and carbohydrates [2]–[3]. The principal decay pathways and the metabolic origin of the main vertebrate postmortem volatiles were reviewed by Dent and colleagues [5], Boumba and colleagues [6] and recently by Paczkoski and Schütz [4]. However, the metabolic origin of many cadaveric compounds is still unknown [4], [7]. Only a few research groups have studied the postmortem VOCs emanating from human remains [8]–[13] and animal carcasses (pig [7], [14]–[15], mouse [16], rabbit [17]). Nevertheless, the majority of these studies is focused on burial decomposition or in closed environments (“body bag”) and limits the access to the corpse for the necrofauna, mainly insects [7]–[11]. The available information concerning postmortem chemistry of above-ground decomposition is rather limited. Numerous applications would however benefit from a better understanding of the postmortem volatiles emitted during the decay process.

      (...)

      In conclusion, this study provides the first documentation of the use of GCxGC-TOFMS to analyze pig decaying volatile compounds. The use of comprehensive GC could improve the characterization of the smell of death in terms of volatile constitution, rather than conventional GC. Indeed, the complexity of postmortem volatile samples requires more complex analytical methods [25]. Concerning data analysis, it would be interesting to include chemometrics analysis in future work. Nevertheless, the solvent extraction of the volatile organic compounds from the sorbent cartridges as well as the storage of the liquid fraction prior analyses is not adequate for the most volatile polar compounds, compared to the use of thermal desorption techniques, which is currently under investigation. However, our results demonstrated that bi-dimensional gas chromatography coupled with time-of-flight mass spectrometry is a powerful tool to analyze the volatile cadaveric emissions.

      Source
      Enhanced Characterization of the Smell of Death by Comprehensive Two-Dimensional Gas Chromatography-Time-of-Flight Mass Spectrometry (GCxGC-TOFMS)

          Jessica Dekeirsschieter,
          Pierre-Hugues Stefanuto,
          Catherine Brasseur,
          Eric Haubruge,
          Jean-François Focant

      PLOS

          Published: June 18, 2012

          DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0039005


      http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0039005

      ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 03:44:30 PM
      OK, Thanks Stephen.
      Did I mention urine in that post?  or did You answer the wrong post.........I do it all the time.

      Quite possibly Anna.

      I don't have the time to read them all through.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 04:25:16 PM
      http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
      A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 19, 2015, 04:30:24 PM
      http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
      A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

      The reference is to dogs which have been trained only on material from human sources ... Eddie was not one of those.

      It is worth bearing in mind that no-one ... ie scientist or handler ... knows exactly what VOC or combination thereof the dog is alerting to.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 04:38:55 PM
      http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
      A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

      We are not discussing the training of any other dog, Pathfinder.
      We are discussing Eddie and this is what is said about him, in regards to searches.


      Search Asset Profile

      'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 04:46:44 PM
      The reference is to dogs which have been trained only on material from human sources ... Eddie was not one of those.

      It is worth bearing in mind that no-one ... ie scientist or handler ... knows exactly what VOC or combination thereof the dog is alerting to.

      Absolutely, Brietta. For all we know it could be that something resembling  part of cadaver scent residue that the dog alerted too, a false alert or indeed a cadaver.
      We will never know for sure what triggered the alert.
       
      Something that has part of the makeup of cadaverine or putriscine and was a common denominator would be a fair possibility, though.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 19, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
      Suggestion to the Forum owner - contact this young lady to take part in this discussion, at least she should know what she's talking about, and she can be contacted via her twitter account:

      https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 19, 2015, 05:01:06 PM
      Do you have cite for that post, Please, G?

      "Volatile organic compounds" None of us know what it is that the dogs alert too in a cadaver scent.
      Where does it say that they can not alert to part of the makeup of a Cadaver scent.

      The scent can not be replicated in a laboratory, therefore it is impossible to know what the scent consists of, or indeed which parts of a cadaver scent, the dogs recognise and alert too.

      Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time

      Here you are Anna, sorry!

      I think the post says the dog will alert to the scent of a cadaver. If only parts of the scent are present, therefore, that wouldn't be the scent of a cadaver, would it? No alert.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 19, 2015, 05:09:23 PM
      Suggestion to the Forum owner - contact this young lady to take part in this discussion, at least she should know what she's talking about, and she can be contacted via her twitter account:

      https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php

      Is it wise to introduce VRDs mistakenly signalling mushrooms to add to the confusion?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 05:12:05 PM
      Suggestion to the Forum owner - contact this young lady to take part in this discussion, at least she should know what she's talking about, and she can be contacted via her twitter account:

      https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php

      That's interesting Alfie.

      Forensics research to make cadaver dogs more efficient

      Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:24:00 BST

      “They are mostly used for human remains detection, not just in murder cases but for suicides too.  For example, if somebody has been hit by a train, the dogs are used to locate body parts.  They have also been used after incidents such as the 7/7 bombings.

      “They can also be used for blood detection, if there has been an assault for example, and in Lancashire they train their dogs to identify semen as well, so they can be used in sexual assault cases,” said Lorna.



      As at Aug 2014, there still doesn't appear to be any global criteria concerning what such dogs are trained to alert to or to ignore. And this is seven years later.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 05:17:53 PM
      Here you are Anna, sorry!

      I think the post says the dog will alert to the scent of a cadaver. If only parts of the scent are present, therefore, that wouldn't be the scent of a cadaver, would it? No alert.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      Thank you G, There is no need for you, to apologise. You may be correct. We can not know for certain, what it is within the cadaver scent that causes a dog to alert.

      There are many contributing elements that result in the scent of a cadaver. Nobody knows which of these, the dogs alert too.
      Even the scientists don't know, because there is no test in which to research it.

      All we know is that it is a complex combination that makes up the scents. Cadaverine and putriscine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 05:19:39 PM
      I would like to ask her if it is normal practice for the dogs to walk past the source of the scent ...completely ignoring it several times...before being called back several times in order to get an alert.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 19, 2015, 05:20:20 PM
      Is it wise to introduce VRDs mistakenly signalling mushrooms to add to the confusion?
      Hey, she's the one with the PHD, who are we to argue??  Let's add fungi to the list!!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 05:28:25 PM
      So the dogs who were supposed to have a 100% record
      who were supposed to have never made a false alert in 200 cases
      who according to amaral had been responsible for 200 convictions....have produced alerts that are worthless
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 05:29:30 PM
      Is it wise to introduce VRDs mistakenly signalling mushrooms to add to the confusion?

      This bit?

      Kip correctly identified the odours derived from decomposition and was not distracted by the “negative control” smells.  It was a successful demonstration.  But in the field, VR dogs can sometimes be distracted by “false positives”, such as dead animals, or even mushrooms, explained Lorna.  If she can arrive at a greater understanding of the chemistry of odours from human cadavers, then VR dogs can be extra efficient.

      “If you train a dog with a chemical that is specific to human decomposition, you can enhance its ability.  It is not about changing the way the dogs do it, but improving it,” she added.


      Dogs have also been distracted by methane from peat bogs.

      Personally, I don't agree with the "dogs are useless" camp any more than I do with the "dogs are always accurate in detecting human corpses" camp.

      They're a tool. Sometimes they lead to evidence, sometimes they lead to a red herring, and sometimes there's just an unresolved question mark pending further eliminatory investigation - which may or may not ever take place.

      If methane, mushrooms or any other odour can lead to an irrelevant alert, then I find that worth researching, particularly when some people can end up on death row for the flimsiest of reasons and by the time the appeals process is over, the dogs in question will have been chasing butterflies on a cloud for years.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: John on August 19, 2015, 05:31:16 PM
      Is it wise to introduce VRDs mistakenly signalling mushrooms to add to the confusion?

      Welcome back misty, let's not forget our manners folks.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 19, 2015, 05:45:11 PM
      Welcome back misty, let's not forget our manners folks.

      Thanks, John.  8((()*/


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 19, 2015, 06:01:58 PM
      @ Misty

      Welcome back. Good to see you again.  8((()*/

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 06:24:39 PM
      This bit?

      Kip correctly identified the odours derived from decomposition and was not distracted by the “negative control” smells.  It was a successful demonstration.  But in the field, VR dogs can sometimes be distracted by “false positives”, such as dead animals, or even mushrooms, explained Lorna.  If she can arrive at a greater understanding of the chemistry of odours from human cadavers, then VR dogs can be extra efficient.

      “If you train a dog with a chemical that is specific to human decomposition, you can enhance its ability.  It is not about changing the way the dogs do it, but improving it,” she added.


      Dogs have also been distracted by methane from peat bogs.

      Personally, I don't agree with the "dogs are useless" camp any more than I do with the "dogs are always accurate in detecting human corpses" camp.

      They're a tool. Sometimes they lead to evidence, sometimes they lead to a red herring, and sometimes there's just an unresolved question mark pending further eliminatory investigation - which may or may not ever take place.

      If methane, mushrooms or any other odour can lead to an irrelevant alert, then I find that worth researching, particularly when some people can end up on death row for the flimsiest of reasons and by the time the appeals process is over, the dogs in question will have been chasing butterflies on a cloud for years.

      So do we have some magic mushrooms in this case now as well ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 06:26:35 PM
      So the dogs who were supposed to have a 100% record
      who were supposed to have never made a false alert in 200 cases
      who according to amaral had been responsible for 200 convictions....have produced alerts that are worthless

      If they were worthless, why keep commenting ?

      It's not as though you have any chance of changing anybodies mind on the issue.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 19, 2015, 06:31:22 PM
      If they were worthless, why keep commenting ?

      It's not as though you have any chance of changing anybodies mind on the issue.

      The discussion is interesting to some of us Stephen.  If you don't like it - don't read it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 06:36:01 PM
      The discussion is interesting to some of us Stephen.  If you don't like it - don't read it.

      It is only continued in an effort to dismiss the indications of the dogs .

      However, in reality it achieves the complete opposite.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 19, 2015, 06:40:05 PM
      That's interesting Alfie.

      Forensics research to make cadaver dogs more efficient

      Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:24:00 BST

      “They are mostly used for human remains detection, not just in murder cases but for suicides too.  For example, if somebody has been hit by a train, the dogs are used to locate body parts.  They have also been used after incidents such as the 7/7 bombings.

      “They can also be used for blood detection, if there has been an assault for example, and in Lancashire they train their dogs to identify semen as well, so they can be used in sexual assault cases,” said Lorna.



      As at Aug 2014, there still doesn't appear to be any global criteria concerning what such dogs are trained to alert to or to ignore. And this is seven years later.

      Good find by Alfred.

      Sadly there are occasions when the dogs fail to find remains despite what must have been their best effort.  It took the determination of her friend to keep the search going before Susan McLean's body was found.

      Perhaps like, Mr Amaral the police were giving too much trust to the dog alerts. 
      In the case of Portugal the alerts ... in the case of Scotland the lack of them.




      Retired US officer travels to Scotland to find her pal's body and slams police failure to find missing tourist
      06:00, 19 AUGUST 2015
      BY JAMES MONCUR

      A RETIRED US army colonel who travelled to Scotland in search of her missing friend has attacked police’s failure to find the woman’s body.

      Lorna VanderZanden and a team of volunteers uncovered the remains of Susan McLean at the weekend.

      Susan, 61, from Pennsylvania, was on holiday with husband Donald when she disappeared from a hotel in Aberfeldy, Perthshire, three months ago.

      And Lorna is furious police were unable to find her in that time, despite using specialist teams including dog handlers and divers.

      She said they had passed within feet of the body at one point as they searched the Loch Hoil trail – but chose not to enter the heavily wooded area.

      Lorna, 61, said yesterday: “I am totally astonished I could come here and find Susan in four weeks with eight volunteers on two Saturdays when Police Scotland could not find her in three months.

      “I was told repeatedly that police and cadaver dogs had searched the entire area from Moness to Gatehouse Nursery to Loch Hoil trail to the Birks of Aberfeldy.

      “We found her a couple of hundred yards north of Loch Hoil trail, 25ft from the edge of a section of forest. How could police and cadaver dogs miss her when she was so close to the secondary trail just north of Loch Hoil trail?”

      Lorna added that she can’t imagine life without her friend.

      She said: “I’ve known her for 27 years and she was closer than a sister. I just couldn’t stay in the U.S and not know what happened.”

      Donald added: “I miss Susan every day, especially when I care for our horses or water her flowers. My life and those of my sons and friends are changed forever.”

      The criticism of the search for Susan comes just weeks after police bungled the handling of a call to a car crash, leaving tragic Lamara Bell lying in a wrecked car next to her dead boyfriend for three days. She later died in hospital.

      Police yesterday confirmed the body was that of Susan.

      Superintendent Graeme Murdoch said: “It is my critical assessment, even with hindsight, that our search strategy was sound although it is always frustrating that extensive searches do not yield an early positive outcome.

      “Now that remains have been found, I sincerely hope that this will allow some measure of closure for the family and friends.”
      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/retired-officer-travels-scotland-find-6277011
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 19, 2015, 06:54:13 PM
      Good find by Alfred.

      Sadly there are occasions when the dogs fail to find remains despite what must have been their best effort.  It took the determination of her friend to keep the search going before Susan McLean's body was found.

      Perhaps like, Mr Amaral the police were giving too much trust to the dog alerts. 
      In the case of Portugal the alerts ... in the case of Scotland the lack of them.




      Retired US officer travels to Scotland to find her pal's body and slams police failure to find missing tourist
      06:00, 19 AUGUST 2015
      BY JAMES MONCUR

      A RETIRED US army colonel who travelled to Scotland in search of her missing friend has attacked police’s failure to find the woman’s body.

      Lorna VanderZanden and a team of volunteers uncovered the remains of Susan McLean at the weekend.

      Susan, 61, from Pennsylvania, was on holiday with husband Donald when she disappeared from a hotel in Aberfeldy, Perthshire, three months ago.

      And Lorna is furious police were unable to find her in that time, despite using specialist teams including dog handlers and divers.

      She said they had passed within feet of the body at one point as they searched the Loch Hoil trail – but chose not to enter the heavily wooded area.

      Lorna, 61, said yesterday: “I am totally astonished I could come here and find Susan in four weeks with eight volunteers on two Saturdays when Police Scotland could not find her in three months.

      “I was told repeatedly that police and cadaver dogs had searched the entire area from Moness to Gatehouse Nursery to Loch Hoil trail to the Birks of Aberfeldy.

      “We found her a couple of hundred yards north of Loch Hoil trail, 25ft from the edge of a section of forest. How could police and cadaver dogs miss her when she was so close to the secondary trail just north of Loch Hoil trail?”

      Lorna added that she can’t imagine life without her friend.

      She said: “I’ve known her for 27 years and she was closer than a sister. I just couldn’t stay in the U.S and not know what happened.”

      Donald added: “I miss Susan every day, especially when I care for our horses or water her flowers. My life and those of my sons and friends are changed forever.”

      The criticism of the search for Susan comes just weeks after police bungled the handling of a call to a car crash, leaving tragic Lamara Bell lying in a wrecked car next to her dead boyfriend for three days. She later died in hospital.

      Police yesterday confirmed the body was that of Susan.

      Superintendent Graeme Murdoch said: “It is my critical assessment, even with hindsight, that our search strategy was sound although it is always frustrating that extensive searches do not yield an early positive outcome.

      “Now that remains have been found, I sincerely hope that this will allow some measure of closure for the family and friends.”
      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/retired-officer-travels-scotland-find-6277011
      One mustn't criticise the Scottish police though as that would be xenophobic.  And as for the dogs, I expect the body was wrapped in waxy paper or something. 
      On a serious note, how awful for all involved, in particular the poor woman who found her friend's body after 3 months. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 07:10:08 PM
      The most interesting thing to come out of this recent discussion is that we have learned that the alerts are from the clear cut actions we had been led to believe. it is hardly surprising that we are told by those leading the search that Maddie may still be alive
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 07:11:24 PM
      Yes, I know, but it hasn't been established which decomposing body fluids from a living person Eddie may have been trained to ignore aside from blood.

      There's simply no definitive answer to that either way, as no one seems to have asked Grime. Unless anyone finds a case in which Grime has testified in court that Eddie would not react to decomposing urine, semen, vaginal fluids, sputum, nasal secretions, etc., then I don't see why it should be assumed that alerts to such substances are unlikely.

      Perhaps this helps

      Two relevant parts from the rogatory interview:-

      ‘The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver’
      The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for ‘live’ human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of ‘fresh blood’. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

      EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. But most of the time, however, the dog was trained using the odour of a human cadaver. Operationally, the dog has ignored large amounts of animal remains/bones when locating human decomposition.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      Parts of a body that have detached,left the body, for wont of better words, from a live human are not the same to the dog as those from a dead human. I think this is what maybe causes alot of confusion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 07:20:09 PM
      The most interesting thing to come out of this recent discussion is that we have learned that the alerts are from the clear cut actions we had been led to believe. it is hardly surprising that we are told by those leading the search that Maddie may still be alive

      Alive ???

      Yet there has not been one trace of her since she disappeared.

      Unless you believe in fantasies as some clearly do.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 07:21:49 PM
      Alive ???

      Yet there has not been one trace of her since she disappeared.

      Unless you believe in fantasies as some clearly do.
      Maddie may still be alive..... Fact not fantasy
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 19, 2015, 07:27:23 PM
      ...

      Perhaps like, Mr Amaral the police were giving too much trust to the dog alerts. 
      In the case of Portugal the alerts ... in the case of Scotland the lack of them.

      ...

      I think this has hit the nail on the head re Amaral and the dogs.

      The question I am chewing over is - did Amaral buy into this - or - were the super-successful dogs thrust upon him?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 07:35:45 PM
      I think this has hit the nail on the head re Amaral and the dogs.

      The question I am chewing over is - did Amaral buy into this - or - were the super-successful dogs thrust upon him?

      so who thrust it on him...even so he has had ample time to correct himself and the lies he has told....Did anyone really tell amaral the dogs were responsible for 200 criminal convictions
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lyall on August 19, 2015, 07:37:13 PM
      I think this has hit the nail on the head re Amaral and the dogs.

      The question I am chewing over is - did Amaral buy into this - or - were the super-successful dogs thrust upon him?

      They had no other clues, and so any police in the world in a comparable situation would have done the same.

      (They still have no other clues.)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 07:39:32 PM
      They had no other clues, and so any police in the world in a comparable situation would have done the same.

      (They still have no other clues.)

      absolute rubbish....amaral made up evidence...and drew his own made up conclusions that did not follow the evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 07:43:28 PM
      absolute rubbish....amaral made up evidence...and drew his own made up conclusions that did not follow the evidence

      In fact, directly contradicted the evidence.

      Harrison never switched the enquiry to one for a child assumed dead, and certainly never said that her concealed remains were somewhere in close proximity to PdL ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 07:44:56 PM
      Worldwide publicity and not one sign of Madeleine.

      It is quite remarkable when the truth is deleted on this forum.  &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lyall on August 19, 2015, 07:45:34 PM
      absolute rubbish....amaral made up evidence...and drew his own made up conclusions that did not follow the evidence

      No police anywhere in the world could have or would have ignored those alerts. Fact, davel.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 07:46:27 PM
      No police anywhere in the world could have or would have ignored those alerts. Fact, davel.

      Precisely.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 07:49:44 PM
      No police anywhere in the world could have or would have ignored those alerts. Fact, davel.

      what facts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 07:50:33 PM
      After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.

      Goncalo Amaral, Truth of the Lie, the chapter The Arrival of the Experts

      Against stiff competition, that, by my reckoning, is the most libellous passage in Amaral's book.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 19, 2015, 07:57:24 PM
      Pegasus appeared to have identified that Sean's distinctive red aeroplane T-shirt & Kate's check trousers, which were marked by Eddie, were also both visible  in the pile of dirty laundry in the wardrobe which Eddie also allegedly marked.
      What were the odds that those 2 items, 3 months later, would be randomly put in the same box at the rented villa by the PJ - and also laid out on the gym floor in such close proximity to each other for the cadaver dogs to inspect?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 19, 2015, 07:59:45 PM
      After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.

      Goncalo Amaral, Truth of the Lie, the chapter The Arrival of the Experts

      Against stiff competition, that, by my reckoning, is the most libellous passage in Amaral's book.
      But how can that statement be libellous? It does not accuse any individual of doing anything.
      Could not a third party be responsible for that scenario, and each of the parents completely innocent?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 07:59:45 PM
      No police anywhere in the world could have or would have ignored those alerts. Fact, davel.

      the whole point is amaral misrepresented the alerts...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 07:59:48 PM
      After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz. He praises the quality of the work carried out by the Portuguese authorities in trying to find the little girl alive. According to him, the time has come to redirect the searches in order to find, this time, a body hidden in the surrounding area.

      Goncalo Amaral, Truth of the Lie, the chapter The Arrival of the Experts

      Against stiff competition, that, by my reckoning, is the most libellous passage in Amaral's book.

      Note the words 'the most plausible'.

      Meanwhile ferryman, nae evidence of anything else.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 08:00:37 PM
      the whole point is amaral misrepresented the alerts...

      Where has accidental death been disproved ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 08:01:03 PM
      Note the words 'the most plausible'.

      Meanwhile ferryman, nae evidence of anything else.

      note the words.....there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead..absolute lies
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lyall on August 19, 2015, 08:05:34 PM
      the whole point is amaral misrepresented the alerts...

      I think you're missing the point actually. There wasn't just one alert, there were many. But there were no alerts in the other places the dogs searched.

      Do you really think any police in the world wouldn't take that very seriously?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 08:08:51 PM
      But how can that statement be libellous? It does not accuse any individual of doing anything.
      Could not a third party be responsible for that scenario, and each of the parents completely innocent?

      Like this:

      The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.

      Amaral was/is clearly not familiar with the prosecutors' fallacy!

      But I bet Harrison is ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 08:09:00 PM
      note the words.....there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead..absolute lies

      So is she with a paedophile(s) or a family totally unaware of who she is ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 19, 2015, 08:14:58 PM
      The shelf was alerted, there was certainly a pile of clothes on it that night, so why weren't a few of those clothes alerted at the gym?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 08:15:18 PM
      Pegasus appeared to have identified that Sean's distinctive red aeroplane T-shirt & Kate's check trousers, which were marked by Eddie, were also both visible  in the pile of dirty laundry in the wardrobe which Eddie also allegedly marked.
      What were the odds that those 2 items, 3 months later, would be randomly put in the same box at the rented villa by the PJ - and also laid out on the gym floor in such close proximity to each other for the cadaver dogs to inspect?

      Appeared being the operative word. I for one do not accept it is a fact that the red t shirt was in that pile where it was said it was.For that reason it is speculating on one person's speculation to ask more.
      And why do some people talk about "dirty laundry"? It was a messy pile of clothes. That is all that is known.

      PS Welcome back.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 19, 2015, 08:27:35 PM
      Like this:

      The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.

      Amaral was/is clearly not familiar with the prosecutors' fallacy!

      But I bet Harrison is ....
      Considering the possibility of death is not libellous.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 19, 2015, 08:32:59 PM
      Pegasus appeared to have identified that Sean's distinctive red aeroplane T-shirt & Kate's check trousers, which were marked by Eddie, were also both visible  in the pile of dirty laundry in the wardrobe which Eddie also allegedly marked.
      What were the odds that those 2 items, 3 months later, would be randomly put in the same box at the rented villa by the PJ - and also laid out on the gym floor in such close proximity to each other for the cadaver dogs to inspect?
      Just to clarify, I withdrew my measurements of the check pattern, because of having overlooked the watermark in the photo, (however IMO it's still very likely they are in that pile).
       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 08:33:59 PM
      Considering the possibility of death is not libellous.

      Misquoting a third party as saying that Madeleine is definitely dead, that her concealed remains are somewhere in close proximity and that someone close (such as her parents!) might be responsible certainly is.

      What I quoted first can only be viewed in that context.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 19, 2015, 08:34:24 PM
      The shelf was alerted, there was certainly a pile of clothes on it that night, so why weren't a few of those clothes alerted at the gym?

      There is a black item at the bottom of the pile in the wardrobe, immediately underneath Sean's red T-shirt. I believe that black item is a top belonging to Kate, which can be seen displayed on the VRD video in the same inspection batch as the 2 rucksacks and being tossed around by Keela.
      What is clear (if you believe the testimony of DP) is that the red T-shirt was not being worn by any of the children at the time of his brief visit after 6.30pm, as they were all in their pyjamas, alive & ready for bed. We do not know what Kate was wearing between 6.30 & 8.30, after which time she went out in jeans.
      As you rightly pointed out previously, there was insufficient post-mortem time for cadaverine to have developed & been deposited on any of the marked clothing before the parents left the apartment, had anything happened to Madeleine in the interim.
      So, if the clothing wasn't contaminated at that stage, what was Eddie really alerting to?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 08:43:28 PM
      Misquoting a third party as saying that Madeleine is definitely dead, that her concealed remains are somewhere in close proximity and that someone close (such as her parents!) certainly is.

      What I quoted first can only be viewed in that context.

      Harrison told hm 96 per cent of crimes against children were perpetrated by friends and relatives 84 per cent by parents, 4 per cent by strangers, hardly libellous!! to just repeat what he was told by a policeman??
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 08:46:13 PM
      Harrison told hm 96 per cent of crimes against children were perpetrated by friends and relatives 84 per cent by parents, 4 per cent by strangers, hardly libellous!! to just repeat what he was told by a policeman??

      It is certainly libellous, and I don't believe Harrison said any such thing.

      Aside from all else, it is a misapplication of statistics.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 08:49:15 PM
      It is certainly libellous, and I don't believe Harrison said any such thing.

      Aside from all else, it is a misapplication of statistics.

      What stats ferryman ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 08:50:10 PM
      What stats ferryman ?

      Stats are irrelevant.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 08:51:33 PM
      Stats are irrelevant.



      Really ?


      So what about this misapplication of stats ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 08:52:34 PM


      Really ?


      So what about this misapplication of stats ?

      Stats are irrelevant.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 08:54:41 PM
      Stats are irrelevant.

      In missing children cases ??

      In police work ??

      Pull the other one.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 08:55:03 PM
      It is certainly libellous, and I don't believe Harrison said any such thing.

      Aside from all else, it is a misapplication of statistics.

      Why don't you believe MH said any such thing?

      And Amaral didn't say MH told him the parents ARE responsible, he used the stats as part of his hypothesis, any policeman would
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 08:59:28 PM
      Why don't you believe MH said any such thing?

      And Amaral didn't say MH told him the parents ARE responsible, he used the stats as part of his hypothesis, any policeman would

      Because right at the end of his third and final report, Harrison said this:

      I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

      Clearly indicating that he he had reached no firm conclusion about the fate of Madeleine, and that he did not consider that her remains were concealed anywhere in proximity to PdL
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:03:44 PM
      Why don't you believe MH said any such thing?

      And Amaral didn't say MH told him the parents ARE responsible, he used the stats as part of his hypothesis, any policeman would

      then he misapplied/misunderstood  the stats
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:05:57 PM


      Really ?


      So what about this misapplication of stats ?

      If we say 96% of children who are harmed are harmed by their parents...then what is the possibility that the McCanns harmed Maddie...you have claimed some expertise in statistics...now is your chance to shine
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:09:00 PM
      Why don't you believe MH said any such thing?

      And Amaral didn't say MH told him the parents ARE responsible, he used the stats as part of his hypothesis, any policeman would

      then amaral is an idiot
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 09:11:14 PM
      Because right at the end of his third and final report, Harrison said this:

      I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

      Clearly indicating that he he had reached no firm conclusion about the fate of Madeleine, and that he did not consider that her remains were concealed anywhere in proximity to PdL

      My question was about statistics given by MH where you said you didnt believe MH told Amaral any such thing, nothng to do at this juncture with life/death/disposal/location
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 09:15:19 PM
      Stats are irrelevant.

      AMAZING STATISTICS

      Great Britain has at its disposal the world's biggest data bank on homicide of children under five years old. Since 1960, the count is 1528. Harrison is well acquainted with its contents. He often draws information from there which helps him to resolve similar cases. Valuable information can be found there on on various criminal modus operandi, places where bodies are hidden, techniques used to get rid of a body. He relates that on one occasion, thanks to the data, he was able to deduce the maximum distance a body might be found in relation to where the crime had been committed.

      The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.

      Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. To convince us of their capability and the extraordinary work carried out by these very special detectives in the course of over 200 investigations, he screens a video for us, showing their training and their intervention on the ground.

      He suggests that we start the operations with the inspection of apartment 5A, then those occupied by the McCanns' friends. Robert Murat's house will also be subjected to thorough examination. In addition, all the vehicles used by all of them will be sniffed by the dogs.

      Meanwhile, we were supposed to receive American electronic equipment that detects human bodies thanks to the odour that emanates from them (Scent Transfer Unit 100). But the equipment, blocked by customs, arrived late. We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. (TOTL)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:16:18 PM
      If we say 96% of children who are harmed are harmed by their parents...then what is the possibility that the McCanns harmed Maddie...you have claimed some expertise in statistics...now is your chance to shine

      c'mon Stephen...if you are so good at maths where's your answer.......
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 09:16:38 PM
      If we say 96% of children who are harmed are harmed by their parents...then what is the possibility that the McCanns harmed Maddie...you have claimed some expertise in statistics...now is your chance to shine

      So where is the 96% from dave ?

      As you know, I never said the mccanns harmed Madeleine.

      Neglected her and the other two children , YES.

      Probability of her being alive with a paedophile, ZERO.

      With a family unaware of her identity, ZERO.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 09:17:06 PM
      My question was about statistics given by MH where you said you didnt believe MH told Amaral any such thing, nothng to do at this juncture with life/death/disposal/location

      Amaral clearly lied that Harrison said Madeleine was definitely dead.

      What other lies did he tell.

      And why should anyone suppose Harrison would bandy about statistics so irresponsibly?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 09:18:50 PM
      Amaral clearly lied that Harrison said Madeleine was definitely dead.

      What other lies did he tell.

      And why should anyone suppose Harrison would bandy about statistics so irresponsibly?

      So where is she ferryman after all this time, and no trace of her ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:19:05 PM
      So where is the 96% from dave ?

      As you know, I never said the mccanns harmed Madeleine.

      Neglected her and the other two children , YES.

      Probability of her being alive with a paedophile, ZERO.

      With a family unaware of her identity, ZERO.

      so the statistics that amaral used were totally irrelevant...amaral mis applied the statistics..case proved
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:20:13 PM
      So where is she ferryman after all this time, and no trace of her ?

      she may be alive..she may be dead
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 09:20:22 PM
      so the statistics that amaral used were totally irrelevant...amaral mis applied the statistics..case proved

      You haven't proved anything dave.

      So where is Madeleine dave ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 09:21:13 PM
      she may be alive..she may be dead

      If you say she is alive, then state any logical possibilities.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:22:10 PM
      AMAZING STATISTICS

      Great Britain has at its disposal the world's biggest data bank on homicide of children under five years old. Since 1960, the count is 1528. Harrison is well acquainted with its contents. He often draws information from there which helps him to resolve similar cases. Valuable information can be found there on on various criminal modus operandi, places where bodies are hidden, techniques used to get rid of a body. He relates that on one occasion, thanks to the data, he was able to deduce the maximum distance a body might be found in relation to where the crime had been committed.

      The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.

      Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. To convince us of their capability and the extraordinary work carried out by these very special detectives in the course of over 200 investigations, he screens a video for us, showing their training and their intervention on the ground.

      He suggests that we start the operations with the inspection of apartment 5A, then those occupied by the McCanns' friends. Robert Murat's house will also be subjected to thorough examination. In addition, all the vehicles used by all of them will be sniffed by the dogs.

      Meanwhile, we were supposed to receive American electronic equipment that detects human bodies thanks to the odour that emanates from them (Scent Transfer Unit 100). But the equipment, blocked by customs, arrived late. We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. (TOTL)

      but no one is suggesting Maddie is the victim of a homicide by her parents...so the statistics are irrelavent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:22:47 PM
      You haven't proved anything dave.

      So where is Madeleine dave ?

      I've proved amaral misapplied statistics
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 09:23:01 PM
      Amaral clearly lied that Harrison said Madeleine was definitely dead.

      What other lies did he tell.

      And why should anyone suppose Harrison would bandy about statistics so irresponsibly?

      Amaral didn't say Harrison said the child was dead but it has to be investigated due to statistics.

      "Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine." (GA)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:23:24 PM
      If you say she is alive, then state any logical possibilities.

      look at previous cases einstein
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:24:14 PM
      Amaral didn't say Harrison said the child was dead but it has to be investigated due to statistics.

      "Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine." (GA)

      you are quoting a man who has a criminal conviction for lying
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 09:24:56 PM
      you are quoting a man who has a criminal conviction for lying

      And why shouldn't it be investigated?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 09:25:07 PM
      Amaral clearly lied that Harrison said Madeleine was definitely dead.

      What other lies did he tell.

      And why should anyone suppose Harrison would bandy about statistics so irresponsibly?

      How was it irresponsible? Or maybe you think Amaral plucked the percentages out of his head.Without being privy to conversations I don't  think you or anyone else is in a position to call "liar"

      Why didn't the Mccanns call Mark Harrison to testify in their trial? Maybe that could have cleared all this up ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:25:29 PM
      If you say she is alive, then state any logical possibilities.

      try and read the post...I have never said Maddie is still alive...you continually make the same mistake
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 09:25:47 PM
      look at previous cases einstein

      Name me a case which has so much unparalleled publicity and police involvement, and a return after over 8 years from nowhere.

       8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:26:30 PM
      And why shouldn't it be investigated?

      the parents should and have been investigated...they should not have lies told about them by the SIO
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 09:26:38 PM
      I've proved amaral misapplied statistics

      What statistics did he use ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:27:28 PM
      Name me a case which has so much unparalleled publicity and police involvement, and a return after over 8 years from nowhere.

       8**8:/:
      Do you want one where the missing person is named Maddie as well..
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 09:28:12 PM
      Amaral didn't say Harrison said the child was dead but it has to be investigated due to statistics.

      "Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine." (GA)

      The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

      (Goncalo Amaral, Truth of the Lie Chapter: The Arrival of the Experts)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:28:36 PM
      What statistics did he use ?
      read it yourself
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:30:28 PM
      Name me a case which has so much unparalleled publicity and police involvement, and a return after over 8 years from nowhere.

       8**8:/:

      could you name me a case where two parents and a group of friends covered up an accidental death...despite world wide publicity...despite police investigation ...and kept the investigation live for 8 years
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lyall on August 19, 2015, 09:30:34 PM
      The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

      (Goncalo Amaral, Truth of the Lie Chapter: The Arrival of the Experts)

      That's a translation, and it's possible either translator or Amaral has just been clumsy with the syntax.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 09:32:46 PM
      That's a translation, and it's possible either translator or Amaral has just been clumsy with the syntax.

      Perhaps someone who has read the Portuguese original would like to comment?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 19, 2015, 09:35:37 PM
      How was it irresponsible? Or maybe you think Amaral plucked the percentages out of his head.Without being privy to conversations I don't  think you or anyone else is in a position to call "liar"

      Why didn't the Mccanns call Mark Harrison to testify in their trial? Maybe that could have cleared all this up ?

      I've read enough of what else Amaral alleges.

      Surely you don't really think Stuart Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest?

      Do you?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 09:40:10 PM
      I've read enough of what else Amaral alleges.

      Surely you don't really think Stuart Prior rang the FSS to berate them on the PJ's powers of arrest?

      Do you?

      I have no idea as there is nothing to confirm or deny, and neither have you
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 09:40:27 PM
      Do you want one where the missing person is named Maddie as well..

      I'm waiting.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 09:42:50 PM
      could you name me a case where two parents and a group of friends covered up an accidental death...despite world wide publicity...despite police investigation ...and kept the investigation live for 8 years

      You mean one with no evidence of abduction, and where the people involved changed their stories and didn't cooperate with the local police, and called  two of them 'Tweedledum and Tweedledee'  ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:43:07 PM
      I'm waiting.

      I'm waiting for you to tell me how you came up with the story that it's normal for dogs to totally ignore the target several times before alerting
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 09:43:42 PM
      You mean one with no evidence of abduction, and where the people involved changed their stories and didn't cooperate with the local police, and called  two of them 'Tweedledum and Tweedledee'  ?

      anything close will do
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 09:51:11 PM
      I'm waiting for you to tell me how you came up with the story that it's normal for dogs to totally ignore the target several times before alerting

      Try watching dogs in action.

      This would help.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 09:53:01 PM
      anything close will do

      Can you name just one case ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 10:09:08 PM
      Can you name just one case ?

      Yes .... I can name 2
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 19, 2015, 10:10:20 PM
      Yes .... I can name 2


      I'm waiting.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 19, 2015, 10:11:33 PM

      I'm waiting.

      I said I can name 2.... Didn't say  I would
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 19, 2015, 10:40:56 PM
      Misquoting a third party as saying that Madeleine is definitely dead, that her concealed remains are somewhere in close proximity and that someone close (such as her parents!) might be responsible certainly is.

      What I quoted first can only be viewed in that context.
      I see your point.
      But what about your opinion, don't you think it entirely reasonable to consider the hypothetical possibility of death caused by either an unidentified perp, or indeed caused by no perp at all?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 19, 2015, 10:42:45 PM
      There is a black item at the bottom of the pile in the wardrobe, immediately underneath Sean's red T-shirt. I believe that black item is a top belonging to Kate, which can be seen displayed on the VRD video in the same inspection batch as the 2 rucksacks and being tossed around by Keela.
      What is clear (if you believe the testimony of DP) is that the red T-shirt was not being worn by any of the children at the time of his brief visit after 6.30pm, as they were all in their pyjamas, alive & ready for bed. We do not know what Kate was wearing between 6.30 & 8.30, after which time she went out in jeans.
      As you rightly pointed out previously, there was insufficient post-mortem time for cadaverine to have developed & been deposited on any of the marked clothing before the parents left the apartment, had anything happened to Madeleine in the interim.
      So, if the clothing wasn't contaminated at that stage, what was Eddie really alerting to?
      First a general calculation - 6 days of an 8 day trip had been completed. Therefore it is likely that about 75% of the clothing items taken on the trip had already been worn. This means that laundry pile contained probably at least 50% of all the clothing present on that trip. (I'm not counting jackets and coats). So there is a good chance the listed items are there in that photo of the pile, even if we can't see them.
      Re the black item thanks I will have a look.
      Also interesting is the item almost encircled by the large grey item.
      Re the CSST minimum time required, everyone seems to be making an elementary assumption which I don't.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 19, 2015, 10:45:25 PM
      The Confessions Of Thomas Quick is the new film about the Swedish serial killer who never was, the case in which Zampo the cadaver dog alerted 46 times in 23 places to body parts that never were.  Looking forward to watching this...  http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/aug/16/confessions-of-thomas-quick-consistently-intriguing-documentary
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lyall on August 19, 2015, 10:53:35 PM
      The Confessions Of Thomas Quick is the new film about the Swedish serial killer who never was, the case in which Zampo the cadaver dog alerted 46 times in 23 places to body parts that never were.  Looking forward to watching this...  http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/aug/16/confessions-of-thomas-quick-consistently-intriguing-documentary

      Bit irrelevant unless that dog was trained the same way as Mr Grime's dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 11:01:39 PM
      The Confessions Of Thomas Quick is the new film about the Swedish serial killer who never was, the case in which Zampo the cadaver dog alerted 46 times in 23 places to body parts that never were.  Looking forward to watching this...  http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/aug/16/confessions-of-thomas-quick-consistently-intriguing-documentary

      As Anna has said already on this thread, it is about Eddie not every cadaver dog in the world and all their different trainings uses glories and failures, why complicate things? Oh..hang on

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 19, 2015, 11:06:45 PM
      Bit irrelevant unless that dog was trained the same way as Mr Grime's dogs.
      What way was that then?  In a foolproof, 100% always right way?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 19, 2015, 11:08:07 PM
      As Anna has said already on this thread, it is about Eddie not every cadaver dog in the world and all their different trainings uses glories and failures, why complicate things? Oh..hang on
      Unless you or someone can demonstrate with proof that Eddie was a cut above all other cadaver dogs then I'm afraid it is relevant to the discussion. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 11:24:44 PM
      Unless you or someone can demonstrate with proof that Eddie was a cut above all other cadaver dogs then I'm afraid it is relevant to the discussion.

      It's not a matter of a cut above, it is a matter of not lumping in every cadaver dog, in every country, in every training scenario, every handler, in every case in the world to judge anything
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 19, 2015, 11:28:39 PM
      It's not a matter of a cut above, it is a matter of not lumping in every cadaver dog, in every country, in every training scenario, every handler, in every case in the world to judge anything
      Right, so you make the rules of the discussion do you?  We must not look at any other dogs or handlers or training methods when discussing Eddie and Grime?  Except when it suits you to, for example in the numerous other cases in which cadaver dogs have been lauded for finding bodies and helping to bring successful convictions.  @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 19, 2015, 11:35:58 PM
      Right, so you make the rules of the discussion do you?  We must not look at any other dogs or handlers or training methods when discussing Eddie and Grime?  Except when it suits you to, for example in the numerous other cases in which cadaver dogs have been lauded for finding bodies and helping to bring successful convictions.  @)(++(*

      No, it is nothing to do with suiting me, its about relevance and also AS I said before Anna (the moderator) has stated we are discussing Amaral and the dog alerts, specifically Eddie,  this thread is not about cadaver dogs in general. Maybe you would like to start a new one or resurrect one of the dozens already on this forum.
      Or just carry on, no skin off my nose, just distraction from certain facts and questions in THIS case
      such as could Eddie have alerted to pooh or nose snot
       8(0(*

      In any case Grime has told us Eddie was not trained for 'live' human odours as I posted before, but only ones from decomposing bodies with the exception of blood from living humans
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 19, 2015, 11:36:14 PM
      First a general calculation - 6 days of an 8 day trip had been completed. Therefore it is likely that about 75% of the clothing items taken on the trip had already been worn. This means that laundry pile contained probably at least 50% of all the clothing present on that trip. (I'm not counting jackets and coats). So there is a good chance the listed items are there in that photo of the pile, even if we can't see them.
      Re the black item thanks I will have a look.
      Also interesting is the item almost encircled by the large grey item.
      Re the CSST minimum time required, everyone seems to be making an elementary assumption which I don't.

      In this sequence, the deponent and his colleague also taught the mother of the child how to operate the washing machine.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUIS-FERRO.htm

      His services had been requested because the shutters in the bedroom at the back of the apartment, facing the Tapas restaurant were damaged and with the aim of providing the mother with instructions regarding the operation of the washing machine.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIO_MOREIRA.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 11:40:51 PM
      Comparisons to an extent are allowable.

      The post that Mercury is referring to, is I believe one that was questioning and discussing Eddie's training in connection to body fluids and cadaver scent.

      Therefore introducing the training method of another dog, who was trained solely on human cadavers
      and desensitised to other scents, was inappropriate to the discussion.

      However you are reminded to stay within the boundaries of the topic and avoid disrupting the thread.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 19, 2015, 11:50:36 PM
      In this sequence, the deponent and his colleague also taught the mother of the child how to operate the washing machine.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUIS-FERRO.htm

      His services had been requested because the shutters in the bedroom at the back of the apartment, facing the Tapas restaurant were damaged and with the aim of providing the mother with instructions regarding the operation of the washing machine.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIO_MOREIRA.htm

      That was on the 1st May. Maybe Kate still wasn't happy with the washing machine or didn't have time. We don't know whether she done any washing or not, in other words.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 19, 2015, 11:58:27 PM
      In this sequence, the deponent and his colleague also taught the mother of the child how to operate the washing machine.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LUIS-FERRO.htm

      His services had been requested because the shutters in the bedroom at the back of the apartment, facing the Tapas restaurant were damaged and with the aim of providing the mother with instructions regarding the operation of the washing machine.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIO_MOREIRA.htm
      Taking into account the washing machine, and the airing rack on balcony, IMO a large percentage of the clothes (excluding jackets and coats) taken on this holiday are in the laundry pile on the wardrobe shelf.
      This can be estimated by looking at the size of the pile. It is a big pile.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 20, 2015, 12:24:53 AM
      Taking into account the washing machine, and the airing rack on balcony, IMO a large percentage of the clothes (excluding jackets and coats) taken on this holiday are in the laundry pile on the wardrobe shelf.
      This can be estimated by looking at the size of the pile. It is a big pile.

      Where were all the kids toys?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 20, 2015, 12:49:12 AM
      Where were all the kids toys?
      They wouldn't take many on holiday would they?

      On the Eddie video at their later residence, there appear to be some in a box; the box with Ccat on top.

      I bet they were given toys by family and friends who came to stay.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 20, 2015, 12:51:36 AM
      Where were all the kids toys?
      During the dinner that evening, the toy cat was on the bed nearest the door in the children's bedroom, the 2 special toys of other 2 children were fairly obviously in the 2 cots, and the 2 toy buckets and 2 toy spades were just outside the front door.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 20, 2015, 01:54:01 AM
      BTW there is a huge illogical assumption made in this case re timeline (+dog/amaral) IMO.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 20, 2015, 11:07:43 AM
      Perhaps someone who has read the Portuguese original would like to comment?

      Just had a look. The original doesn't seem to say that there is no doubt that she's dead, but I'm not quite sure what plasmar means... in context, it seems to mean to give shape / form /substance to. Confirmed might be too strong, not sure.

      See: http://dictionary.reverso.net/portuguese-english/plasmar

      My understanding of that is that Mark's report (whatever plasmar means, gave substance to?) ... the probable / likely scenario that she is dead.

      Perhaps Shining or Montclair could help and correct that if I've misunderstood.


      FM's cite from the Engligh:
      The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

      Original:
      Após uma intensa semana de trabalho, Mark apresentou um relatório com as conclusões do seu estudo aos elementos da coordenação e as notícias, apesar de esperadas, não eram as melhores. Na verdade, aquele relatório plasmava uma das piores hipóteses para os investigadores: o provável cenário de Madeleine estar morta , e o seu cadáver escondido nas proximidades da Praia da Luz.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 20, 2015, 11:53:48 AM
      BTW there is a huge illogical assumption made in this case re timeline (+dog/amaral) IMO.

      Don't keep it to yourself, Pegasus, your train of thought is usually of interest and often provokes good discussion.  Please tell us what you are thinking re the timeline.


      I think there may also be a total irrelevance as to what was where in the apartment at the time when the  crime scene photographs were taken with regard to the dog's supposed alerts in relation to Madeleine McCann.

      In my opinion they are rendered meaningless in that context for the simple reason the crime scene did not remain undisturbed in the intervening period between the taking of the photographs and the introduction of the cadaver dog.

      The crime scene apartment had been in occupation on at least four occasions within that time span by four different families.

      We have no idea what contaminants may have been introduced by all or any one of the individuals who were allowed to reside there or what may have been introduced into the apartment after the McCann family's departure from it leading to the dog's confusion.

      We have been consistently misinformed that this could only have been cadaver scent emanating from Madeleine; the fact that cross contamination can occur so readily is vastly underplayed.
      One only has to think of the smell on one's clothing after spending time in the company of smokers as an example.

      Therefore had the dog made the alert in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance the alert could have been attributed to the time of her family's occupation of the apartment.

      The whole dog episode is rendered meaningless as this patently was not the case.  It served only as a convenient instrument to implicate Madeleine's parents in her disappearance which vies with Ricardo's Delphic  dream interpretation for a place in the police handbook on ... "how not to".
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 20, 2015, 02:41:01 PM
      BTW there is a huge illogical assumption made in this case re timeline (+dog/amaral) IMO.

      Are you referring to the alleged accident at 9.15pm ish?
      If so, then, No there would definitely be insufficient time for cadaver scent to develop and the disposal of the evidence, before 10pm.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 20, 2015, 03:08:23 PM
      Just had a look. The original doesn't seem to say that there is no doubt that she's dead, but I'm not quite sure what plasmar means... in context, it seems to mean to give shape / form /substance to. Confirmed might be too strong, not sure.

      See: http://dictionary.reverso.net/portuguese-english/plasmar

      My understanding of that is that Mark's report (whatever plasmar means, gave substance to?) ... the probable / likely scenario that she is dead.

      Perhaps Shining or Montclair could help and correct that if I've misunderstood.


      FM's cite from the Engligh:
      The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

      Original:
      Após uma intensa semana de trabalho, Mark apresentou um relatório com as conclusões do seu estudo aos elementos da coordenação e as notícias, apesar de esperadas, não eram as melhores. Na verdade, aquele relatório plasmava uma das piores hipóteses para os investigadores: o provável cenário de Madeleine estar morta , e o seu cadáver escondido nas proximidades da Praia da Luz.
      I've got no idea how far plasma can be stretched. 

      However, the key phrase seems to be the one you have underlined.  ...the probable scenario that Madeleine was dead ...  One cannot be firm about something that is probable, but not proven.  Therefore I would not use conclude, simply because it implies a certainty that is not there.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 20, 2015, 03:37:07 PM
      I've got no idea how far plasma can be stretched. 

      However, the key phrase seems to be the one you have underlined.  ...the probable scenario that Madeleine was dead ...  One cannot be firm about something that is probable, but not proven.  Therefore I would not use conclude, simply because it implies a certainty that is not there.

      Thanks Shining. That's what I thought. In a literal sense, it would seem to mean giving shape to something that didn't have one: the image in my head would be making a sculpture out of shapeless lump of clay (assuming that that is roughly the meaning of the word).

      I have a feeling that the French version - on which the English translation was based - wasn't always quite accurate. Perhaps a rushed job.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 20, 2015, 03:50:21 PM
      Thanks Shining and Carana.

      I have seen it said (in writing) that the English translation of Amaral's book is quite poor in places.

      Perhaps that's an example.

      But that, also, is an object-lesson in why we should be guarded about translation of the files?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 20, 2015, 05:03:15 PM
      Thanks Shining and Carana.

      I have seen it said (in writing) that the English translation of Amaral's book is quite poor in places.

      Perhaps that's an example.

      But that, also, is an object-lesson in why we should be guarded about translation of the files?

      There is often the PT original statement to double-check in the files, and initial mistakes have been corrected when pointed out.

      However, underlying the PT original statements, there is still the fact that the statements involving English-speakers were bashed out based on a 3-way attempt to communicate. There is therefore no way of knowing what misunderstandings there were in the original.

      An obvious example (not even due to translation) is that numerous statements concerning people around on the night are almost exactly one hour behind / later than the other half. Unless there is a time warp running through the centre of PdL, something got jumbled...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 20, 2015, 07:01:58 PM
      Thanks Shining and Carana.

      I have seen it said (in writing) that the English translation of Amaral's book is quite poor in places.

      Perhaps that's an example.

      But that, also, is an object-lesson in why we should be guarded about translation of the files?

      I agree we should be suspect about translations..... This case is riddled with poor examples
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 20, 2015, 07:18:50 PM

      Personally, I find it all understandable.  This was bound to happen.  It's the people who insist that it didn't who are the worry.
      And these translation discrepancies have been used in some insane attempt to to implicate The McCanns.

      This would never have happened in Court.  Which is one of the reasons for why it was never going to come to Court.
      Amaral played on this.  And don't tell me that he had no access to English.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 21, 2015, 01:41:58 AM
      Don't keep it to yourself, Pegasus, your train of thought is usually of interest and often provokes good discussion.  Please tell us what you are thinking re the timeline.


      I think there may also be a total irrelevance as to what was where in the apartment at the time when the  crime scene photographs were taken with regard to the dog's supposed alerts in relation to Madeleine McCann.

      In my opinion they are rendered meaningless in that context for the simple reason the crime scene did not remain undisturbed in the intervening period between the taking of the photographs and the introduction of the cadaver dog.

      The crime scene apartment had been in occupation on at least four occasions within that time span by four different families.

      We have no idea what contaminants may have been introduced by all or any one of the individuals who were allowed to reside there or what may have been introduced into the apartment after the McCann family's departure from it leading to the dog's confusion.

      We have been consistently misinformed that this could only have been cadaver scent emanating from Madeleine; the fact that cross contamination can occur so readily is vastly underplayed.
      One only has to think of the smell on one's clothing after spending time in the company of smokers as an example.

      Therefore had the dog made the alert in the immediate aftermath of Madeleine's disappearance the alert could have been attributed to the time of her family's occupation of the apartment.

      The whole dog episode is rendered meaningless as this patently was not the case.  It served only as a convenient instrument to implicate Madeleine's parents in her disappearance which vies with Ricardo's Delphic  dream interpretation for a place in the police handbook on ... "how not to".
      Re what was where, if I was accused of handling something I didn't, this would be of prime importance IMO, not an irrelevance.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 21, 2015, 01:48:32 AM
      Are you referring to the alleged accident at 9.15pm ish?
      If so, then, No there would definitely be insufficient time for cadaver scent to develop and the disposal of the evidence, before 10pm.
      The illogical assumption is (IMO)
       "before 10pm"
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 21, 2015, 01:52:23 AM
      Re what was where, if I was accused of handling something I didn't, this would be of prime importance IMO, not an irrelevance.

      http://crimebodge.com/fool-a-sniffer-dog/

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 02:03:34 AM
      http://crimebodge.com/fool-a-sniffer-dog/

      That is so funny Misty, but a lot of truth in there too.
      Nice to have you back on here.  ?{)(**
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 02:07:07 AM
      The illogical assumption is (IMO)
       "before 10pm"

      Are you saying that in your opinion cadaver scent was left after 10pm. Surely I misunderstood that?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 21, 2015, 02:25:26 AM
      Are you saying that in your opinion cadaver scent was left after 10pm. Surely I misunderstood that?
      I think Mr Amaral's theory has several huge flaws, however, here is an interesting question -
      Where does Mr Amaral (in interviews) think the location was at the moment the alarm was raised at restaurant table?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 02:27:54 AM
      I think Mr Amaral's theory has several huge flaws, however, here is an interesting question - where does Mr Amaral (in interviews) think the location was at the moment the alarm was raised at restaurant ?

      Behind the settee? And all that was found there was the blood of several people IIRC.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 21, 2015, 02:40:48 AM
      That is so funny Misty, but a lot of truth in there too.
      Nice to have you back on here.  ?{)(**

      Nice to be back, Anna, & thank you. Congratulations on your promotion, too.
      Yes, there are a lot of truths in the blog, many of which put dents in the credibility of Eddie, Grime & the PJ. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 21, 2015, 02:45:29 AM
      Behind the settee? And all that was found there was the blood of several people IIRC.
      List the people who looked behind?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 02:52:41 AM
      List the people who looked behind?

      I didn't know that anybody did. However the forensic team would have and possibly the GNR.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2015, 07:36:48 AM
      List the people who looked behind?

      if you are suggesting Maddie died due to a fall from the sofa then that is plainly ridiculous as I have explained
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 21, 2015, 09:07:03 AM
      Nice to be back, Anna, & thank you. Congratulations on your promotion, too.
      Yes, there are a lot of truths in the blog, many of which put dents in the credibility of Eddie, Grime & the PJ.

      Professional police dogs are trained daily all of their lives to help nail perps.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 09:21:03 AM
      Professional police dogs are trained daily all of their lives to help nail perps.


      They are trained to detect scents.

      Sometimes the scents they detect help to solve crimes.

      Sometimes they don't.

      There are countless recorded examples of the latter category.

      There are also countless recorded examples of bad dog-handling practise that lead investigations on wild-goose chases.

      Praia da Luz was one; Haut de la Garenne (Jersey) another.

      Then there was the case Alfred linked to.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2015, 09:22:52 AM
      Professional police dogs are trained daily all of their lives to help nail perps.


      The dogs find evidence that is used to nail the perps
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 09:27:19 AM
      if you are suggesting Maddie died due to a fall from the sofa then that is plainly ridiculous as I have explained

       &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 09:46:28 AM
      Most of the cases which are quoted as 'false alerts' are not proved to be false. They are unknown. The Sharon Matthews case is quoted but it wasn't a false alert the dogs detected the scent of death, just the wrong death. Amaral and his team already suspected the McCanns of something, the dog alerts seemed to confirm their suspicions. They had found nothing to support the abduction theory promoted by the McCanns. They had found nothing to support woke and wandered despite intensive searching.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 10:05:36 AM
      Most of the cases which are quoted as 'false alerts' are not proved to be false. They are unknown. The Sharon Matthews case is quoted but it wasn't a false alert the dogs detected the scent of death, just the wrong death. Amaral and his team already suspected the McCanns of something, the dog alerts seemed to confirm their suspicions. They had found nothing to support the abduction theory promoted by the McCanns. They had found nothing to support woke and wandered despite intensive searching.

      As I, you and many others know, there is nothing even vaguely useful to support abduction, hence the continued frenzy in attacking Grime.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 10:31:17 AM
      If Eddie had been outside somewhere looking for cadaver scent of Madeleine,   Grime wouldn't have been able to call him back numerous times as he wouldn't have known what Madeleine had been in contact with.   The fact that Eddie was in 5a a place that Madeleine had been living all week Grime could call Eddie back again and again,  if he hadn't Eddie would have ran out of the bedroom without alerting.

      In the other apartments Eddie just ran in and out of the rooms,  Grime didn't call him back constantly to the same room.

      If there had been cadaver scent in the bedroom Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.

      Eddie alerted straight away to the place where Keela alerted,   a tiny miniscule of what is believed to be blood under one of the tiles,   if that had been from where Madeleine had bled there would have been a lot more blood and Eddie would have alerted to the whole of the area behind the sofa.

      So to me,  no,   Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent in 5a.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 10:34:28 AM
      In fact I would go as far as to say,  either Eddie was tired and wanted to end the exercise and barked in order to do so,   or he smelt an odour emitted from the garden that someone had walked in or from something that had been on the floor eg dirty washing which could have been from any one of the families who had stayed in 5a after the McCann's.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 10:35:18 AM
      If Eddie had been outside somewhere looking for cadaver scent of Madeleine,   Grime wouldn't have been able to call him back numerous times as he wouldn't have known what Madeleine had been in contact with.   The fact that Eddie was in 5a a place that Madeleine had been living all week Grime could call Eddie back again and again,  if he hadn't Eddie would have ran out of the bedroom without alerting.

      In the other apartments Eddie just ran in and out of the rooms,  Grime didn't call him back constantly to the same room.

      If there had been cadaver scent in the bedroom Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.

      Eddie alerted straight away to the place where Keela alerted,   a tiny miniscule of what is believed to be blood under one of the tiles,   if that had been from where Madeleine had bled there would have been a lot more blood and Eddie would have alerted to the whole of the area behind the sofa.

      So to me,  no,   Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent in 5a.

      On what scientific basis do you make these judgement Lace ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 10:36:19 AM
      In fact I would go as far as to say,  either Eddie was tired and wanted to end the exercise and barked in order to do so,   or he smelt an odour emitted from the garden that someone had walked in or from something that had been on the floor eg dirty washing which could have been from any one of the families who had stayed in 5a after the McCann's.

      Have you ever trained dogs for this purpose, or witnessed them in action ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 10:53:20 AM
      On what scientific basis do you make these judgement Lace ?

      No scientific basis Stephen,   if outside how would Grime know to call Eddie back?   Hey Eddie have another sniff under that tree you just passed or maybe another by that patch of grass.   If Grime hadn't called Eddie back numerous times to that bedroom he would have just ran out from there.   If Grime hadn't known 5a belonged to the McCann's would he have called Eddie back?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 21, 2015, 10:56:36 AM
      I would really like to know why Martin Grime found it essential to be covered from head to toe in protective clothing at the carpark - but not anywhere else?  What was the relevance of that?  Any suggestions Stephen?

      (I have to go out now - but will be back later)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 10:57:05 AM
      Have you ever trained dogs for this purpose, or witnessed them in action ?

      Have you?

      I have read enough to know that dogs can alert to the smell of something that had once been there such as a bloody rag or similar,  Eddie alerted to blood,  he would detect the scent even if there wasn't any blood there, cadaver dogs have also been known to alert to decaying vegetation,  Eddie alerted to the garden,  could be the scent of the garden was brought in on someone's shoes.

      If Madeleine had lain in that bedroom long enough for the scent of cadaver to be present then Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 10:59:05 AM
      No scientific basis Stephen,   if outside how would Grime know to call Eddie back?   Hey Eddie have another sniff under that tree you just passed or maybe another by that patch of grass.   If Grime hadn't called Eddie back numerous times to that bedroom he would have just ran out from there.   If Grime hadn't known 5a belonged to the McCann's would he have called Eddie back?

      These are all hypothetical questions.

      What if this, what if that...............................

      Unfortunately Martin Grime has chosen not to answer questions on these matters. However, bearing in mind the personal attacks he has received from certain 'parties' I could mention, it is hardly surprising.

      perhaps if this case i ever solved, he night answer them, if it is solved of course.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 11:00:28 AM

      Have you?

      I have read enough to know that dogs can alert to the smell of something that had once been there such as a bloody rag or similar,  Eddie alerted to blood,  he would detect the scent even if there wasn't any blood there, cadaver dogs have also been known to alert to decaying vegetation,  Eddie alerted to the garden,  could be the scent of the garden was brought in on someone's shoes.

      If Madeleine had lain in that bedroom long enough for the scent of cadaver to be present then Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.

      Yes, I have watched dogs in action once, several years ago.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 11:16:07 AM
      From PF's post citing a passage from Amaral's book:

      Great Britain has at its disposal the world's biggest data bank on homicide of children under five years old. Since 1960, the count is 1528. Harrison is well acquainted with its contents. He often draws information from there which helps him to resolve similar cases. Valuable information can be found there on on various criminal modus operandi, places where bodies are hidden, techniques used to get rid of a body. He relates that on one occasion, thanks to the data, he was able to deduce the maximum distance a body might be found in relation to where the crime had been committed.

      Ok... The paragraph above clearly refers to homicides of children under 5 years of age.

      But then the following paragraph isn't very clear. Is Amaral still referring to homicides alone? Does this include sexual abuse without death? He also refers to "abductor"... Death related to abduction / or falsely claimed abduction? Or does it include parental abduction with or without death?

      Clear as mud to me.

      The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg264717#msg264717
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 11:24:36 AM
      From PF's post citing a passage from Amaral's book:

      Great Britain has at its disposal the world's biggest data bank on homicide of children under five years old. Since 1960, the count is 1528. Harrison is well acquainted with its contents. He often draws information from there which helps him to resolve similar cases. Valuable information can be found there on on various criminal modus operandi, places where bodies are hidden, techniques used to get rid of a body. He relates that on one occasion, thanks to the data, he was able to deduce the maximum distance a body might be found in relation to where the crime had been committed.

      Ok... The paragraph above clearly refers to homicides of children under 5 years of age.

      But then the following paragraph isn't very clear. Is Amaral still referring to homicides alone? Does this include sexual abuse without death? He also refers to "abductor"... Death related to abduction / or falsely claimed abduction? Or does it include parental abduction with or without death?

      Clear as mud to me.

      The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg264717#msg264717

      From his reports, this is the only reference (I am aware of) by Harrison to statistical data-base ....

      I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

      Are there any others?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 11:25:26 AM
      @Shining

      Sorry to trouble you, but your opinion would be helpful... My understsnding of Portuguese is somewhat basic.


      In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that

      Desta forma, muito pouco subtil, demonstrava que a solução para o caso poderia muito bem estar escondida no restrito círculo de indivíduos que mais próximos estavam de Madeleine, ou seja, estávamos agora a ponderar inves- tigar mais seriamente os pais e amigos.

      p.160 of book, p. 154 pdf

      "Desta forma, muito pouco subtil" doesn't mean "in a roundabout way", does it?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 11:31:40 AM
      @Shining

      Sorry to trouble you, but your opinion would be helpful... My understsnding of Portuguese is somewhat basic.


      In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that

      Desta forma, muito pouco subtil, demonstrava que a solução para o caso poderia muito bem estar escondida no restrito círculo de indivíduos que mais próximos estavam de Madeleine, ou seja, estávamos agora a ponderar inves- tigar mais seriamente os pais e amigos.

      p.160 of book, p. 154 pdf

      "Desta forma, muito pouco subtil" doesn't mean "in a roundabout way", does it?

      A google translation is: thus very little subtle ....

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 21, 2015, 11:34:36 AM
      These are all hypothetical questions.

      What if this, what if that...............................

      Unfortunately Martin Grime has chosen not to answer questions on these matters. However, bearing in mind the personal attacks he has received from certain 'parties' I could mention, it is hardly surprising.

      perhaps if this case i ever solved, he night answer them, if it is solved of course.


      His work seems to have been "within the bounds of reasonable handling" since no official censure has been forthcoming.

      As is oft repeated with regard to Madeleine`s parents, why should he accommodate the "only asking questions" section of forumites ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 11:39:03 AM
      Most of the cases which are quoted as 'false alerts' are not proved to be false. They are unknown. The Sharon Matthews case is quoted but it wasn't a false alert the dogs detected the scent of death, just the wrong death. Amaral and his team already suspected the McCanns of something, the dog alerts seemed to confirm their suspicions. They had found nothing to support the abduction theory promoted by the McCanns. They had found nothing to support woke and wandered despite intensive searching.

      The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".

      "There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.
      http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work


      What an interesting thing for you to say, " ... ... ... it wasn't a false alert the dogs detected the scent of death, just the wrong death."
      Thankfully, Shannon was and is alive ... but precious time was taken up by the dogs' positive alert to human remains which might have altered that situation.


      What an indictment you make of Mr Amaral and the quality of the investigation led by him and his team.  You seem to find the incompetence of the biggest mistake in the book laudable.

      "Amaral and his team already suspected the McCanns of something, the dog alerts seemed to confirm their suspicions."

      Are you really having a laugh here?

      No competent investigation twists the evidence to suit the theory ... particularly when there is no evidence to begin with ... "seemed" just doesn't cut the mustard.

      As far as Mr Amaral's investigation finding nothing is concerned, that is hardly surprising if you are not looking.
      For example Heri makes very good points regarding the phone data  http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/  which he is not presently allowed to access most of which was ignored by the Amaral investigation and which competent investigators from the PJ and SY had to check out years down the line. 
      Investigators who are of the opinion that in the absence of evidence to the contrary Madeleine may well be alive and was the victim of a stranger abduction.

      That the Amaral investigation relied on unsubstantiated dog alerts and an alleged dream to make Madeleine's parents suspect in her disappearance is risible if it wasn't so serious, but it certainly highlights the amateur manner in which he conducted his investigation. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 11:43:48 AM

      Have you?

      I have read enough to know that dogs can alert to the smell of something that had once been there such as a bloody rag or similar,  Eddie alerted to blood,  he would detect the scent even if there wasn't any blood there, cadaver dogs have also been known to alert to decaying vegetation,  Eddie alerted to the garden,  could be the scent of the garden was brought in on someone's shoes.

      If Madeleine had lain in that bedroom long enough for the scent of cadaver to be present then Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.


      Eddie also alerted to semen, blood, milk teeth and coconut in Haute de la Garenne.
      In fact, in the video I watched there were few places Eddie didn't alert.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 11:45:35 AM
      The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".

      "There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.
      http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work


      What an interesting thing for you to say, " ... ... ... it wasn't a false alert the dogs detected the scent of death, just the wrong death."
      Thankfully, Shannon was and is alive ... but precious time was taken up by the dogs' positive alert to human remains which might have altered that situation.


      What an indictment you make of Mr Amaral and the quality of the investigation led by him and his team.  You seem to find the incompetence of the biggest mistake in the book laudable.

      "Amaral and his team already suspected the McCanns of something, the dog alerts seemed to confirm their suspicions."

      Are you really having a laugh here?

      No competent investigation twists the evidence to suit the theory ... particularly when there is no evidence to begin with ... "seemed" just doesn't cut the mustard.

      As far as Mr Amaral's investigation finding nothing is concerned, that is hardly surprising if you are not looking.
      For example Heri makes very good points regarding the phone data  http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/  which he is not presently allowed to access most of which was ignored by the Amaral investigation and which competent investigators from the PJ and SY had to check out years down the line. 
      Investigators who are of the opinion that in the absence of evidence to the contrary Madeleine may well be alive and was the victim of a stranger abduction.

      That the Amaral investigation relied on unsubstantiated dog alerts and an alleged dream to make Madeleine's parents suspect in her disappearance is risible if it wasn't so serious, but it certainly highlights the amateur manner in which he conducted his investigation.

      The dogs made alerts. FACT.

      The dogs are trained to detect certain compounds. FACT.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 21, 2015, 11:49:18 AM

      Eddie also alerted to semen, blood, milk teeth and coconut in Haute de la Garenne.
      In fact, in the video I watched there were few places Eddie didn't alert.
      .

      .........but only a few places in PDL where he did  .
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 11:49:43 AM
      From his reports, this is the only reference (I am aware of) by Harrison to statistical data-base ....

      I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

      Are there any others?

      I don't know. From your cite, Harrison does indeed seem to be referring to a database of child homicide. His main point (IMO) was to support his proposal of a search area based on where bodies have typically been dumped.

      We have a thread on UK statistics somewhere on here. From memory, until recently, the information documented by police varied from force to force and made comparison research very difficult.

      Even in this homicide category, do the statistics refer to deaths in which a body has been found and family members or strangers have been convicted? What about cases in which a body has been discovered, but no perpetrator found (typical cold case)?

      I would like to read what Harrison actually presented to Amaral for myself...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 11:53:05 AM
      I would really like to know why Martin Grime found it essential to be covered from head to toe in protective clothing at the carpark - but not anywhere else?  What was the relevance of that?  Any suggestions Stephen?

      (I have to go out now - but will be back later)

      Maybe branching out into the self employed business world?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 12:03:25 PM
      The dogs made alerts. FACT.

      The dogs are trained to detect certain compounds. FACT.


      The fact remains there was no evidence, apart from blood, to substantiate alerts.  Opinion doesn't count.

        ... and I do wish you would refrain from shouting.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 12:04:47 PM
      .

      .........but only a few places in PDL where he did  .

                              So one set of errors balances out another, in your opinion?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 12:05:03 PM
      The dogs made alerts. FACT.

      The dogs are trained to detect certain compounds. FACT.

      Milk teeth were found. If Eddie alerted to them, then that's a correct response.

      However, if finding milk teeth indicates that the children who lost them are necessarily dead, then we'd be extinct as a species by now, wouldn't we?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 12:10:08 PM

      The fact remains there was no evidence, apart from blood, to substantiate alerts.  Opinion doesn't count.

        ... and I do wish you would refrain from shouting.

      Dear oh dear.

      It wasn't shouting brietta. @)(++(*

      The fact remains, there is nothing in this case, other than the dog alerts.

      Opinions don't count as to the 'abduction'.  ?{)(** , you need evidence for that. 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 21, 2015, 12:19:09 PM
                              So one set of errors balances out another, in your opinion?

      ............ so all the alerts and all non- alerts by Eddie at both sites were erroneous in your view?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 12:19:37 PM
      Dear oh dear.

      It wasn't shouting brietta. @)(++(*

      The fact remains, there is nothing in this case, other than the dog alerts.

      Opinions don't count as to the 'abduction'.  ?{)(** , you need evidence for that. 8**8:/:

      So there's nothing in the case ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 12:28:25 PM
      So there's nothing in the case ....

      The alerts ferryman, the alerts.

      Dogs respond to what they are trained to do.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2015, 12:28:41 PM
      Dear oh dear.

      It wasn't shouting brietta. @)(++(*

      The fact remains, there is nothing in this case, other than the dog alerts.

      Opinions don't count as to the 'abduction'.  ?{)(**

      Nothing other than the dog alerts.  None of which produced any evidence, let alone proof. So it's still all opinion.  That of Martin Grime, Goncalo Amaral and a load of Internet Posters.

      I sometime get overcome by the perfidy of it all, when the whole ghastly mess comes together in my brain.  But like all WTF moments I come back to the same old same old.  There is still nothing to implicate The McCanns.

      Keep on taking the pills.  This Topic still has acres to run.

      As for Martin Grime and Goncalo Amaral, best I don't pursue that.  And it would take too long anyway.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 12:30:52 PM
      Nothing other than the dog alerts.  None of which produced any evidence, let alone proof. So it's still all opinion.  That of Martin Grime, Goncalo Amaral and a load of Internet Posters.

      I sometime get overcome by the perfidy of it all, when the whole ghastly mess comes together in my brain.  But like all WTF moments I come back to the same old same old.  There is still nothing to implicate The McCanns.

      Keep on taking the pills.  This Topic still has acres to run.

      As for Martin Grime and Goncalo Amaral, best I don't pursue that.  And it would take too long anyway.

      Yes, acres to run, in a Mobius Loop.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 21, 2015, 12:34:25 PM
      If Eddie had been outside somewhere looking for cadaver scent of Madeleine,   Grime wouldn't have been able to call him back numerous times as he wouldn't have known what Madeleine had been in contact with.   The fact that Eddie was in 5a a place that Madeleine had been living all week Grime could call Eddie back again and again,  if he hadn't Eddie would have ran out of the bedroom without alerting.

      In the other apartments Eddie just ran in and out of the rooms,  Grime didn't call him back constantly to the same room.

      If there had been cadaver scent in the bedroom Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.

      Eddie alerted straight away to the place where Keela alerted,   a tiny miniscule of what is believed to be blood under one of the tiles,   if that had been from where Madeleine had bled there would have been a lot more blood and Eddie would have alerted to the whole of the area behind the sofa.

      So to me,  no,   Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent in 5a.



      The initial interest by the dog is recognised by the handler which prompts the attempts to identify and pinpoint the source ?

      The "calling back"  also occurred in the bathroom of 5A but no alerts


       *snip *

        "Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from "

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2015, 12:39:14 PM
      Yes, acres to run, in a Mobius Loop.

      Okay.  What's a Mobius Loop?  Let's add a bit of intellect to this thread, even if only briefly.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2015, 12:40:57 PM


      The initial interest by the dog is recognised by the handler which prompts the attempts to identify and pinpoint the source ?

      The "calling back"  also occurred in the bathroom of 5A but no alerts


       *snip *

        "Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from "

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      I wish I could pick up my dog's body language.  I might be able to stop her pissing on the carpet.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 12:44:32 PM
      I wish I could pick up my dog's body language.  I might be able to stop her pissing on the carpet.

      Hmmmmm!

      Not sure about carpets to, but on the occasion Carew refers to, Eddie can be quite clearly seen in the video waiting patiently for Grime to take off his lead ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 21, 2015, 12:45:20 PM
      I wish I could pick up my dog's body language.  I might be able to stop her pissing on the carpet.

      Ah well.........were you a professional Piss-Posture- Recognition- Expert you could ply your trade all over and have an enviable earning potential.

      Dog owners would be queuing up.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 12:54:43 PM
      ............ so all the alerts and all non- alerts by Eddie at both sites were erroneous in your view?

      Apparently you are the one who attaches value to Eddie's alerts.  Ignoring the ones which have been corroborated either forensically or by Keela, why do you think the prosecutors discarded utilising any others in the prosecution of the Drs McCann?
      Then you 'only ask questions' and don't really listen to the answer if it doesn't suit ... or such has been my experience.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 12:57:15 PM
      The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".

      "There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.
      http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work


      What an interesting thing for you to say, " ... ... ... it wasn't a false alert the dogs detected the scent of death, just the wrong death."
      Thankfully, Shannon was and is alive ... but precious time was taken up by the dogs' positive alert to human remains which might have altered that situation.


      What an indictment you make of Mr Amaral and the quality of the investigation led by him and his team.  You seem to find the incompetence of the biggest mistake in the book laudable.

      "Amaral and his team already suspected the McCanns of something, the dog alerts seemed to confirm their suspicions."

      Are you really having a laugh here?

      No competent investigation twists the evidence to suit the theory ... particularly when there is no evidence to begin with ... "seemed" just doesn't cut the mustard.

      As far as Mr Amaral's investigation finding nothing is concerned, that is hardly surprising if you are not looking.
      For example Heri makes very good points regarding the phone data  http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/  which he is not presently allowed to access most of which was ignored by the Amaral investigation and which competent investigators from the PJ and SY had to check out years down the line. 
      Investigators who are of the opinion that in the absence of evidence to the contrary Madeleine may well be alive and was the victim of a stranger abduction.

      That the Amaral investigation relied on unsubstantiated dog alerts and an alleged dream to make Madeleine's parents suspect in her disappearance is risible if it wasn't so serious, but it certainly highlights the amateur manner in which he conducted his investigation.

      Because a dog alerted to the scent of death in the home of Shannon Mathews,
      I do wonder what conclusion would have been arrived at, had the child been found deceased in a wood or somewhere else.
      Would they have investigated the possibility of the furniture in the home, being purchased from a deceased person?
      How could they know that the scent that was supposedly alerted too, was on furniture or who that scent belonged too?
      How do you check any antique or pre-owned furniture you may purchase, for cadaver scent? You can not!

      There are so many possible reasons for an alert of cadaver dog, that I do not believe any can be reliable, unless a body is found in the location of that alert. Just my opinion, of course.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 21, 2015, 01:07:30 PM
      Hmmmmm!

      Not sure about carpets to, but on the occasion Carew refers to, Eddie can be quite clearly seen in the video waiting patiently for Grime to take off his lead ....

      Not so.........the lead was taken off outside the apartment.

      The occasion I referred to was inside the apartment. Mr Grime says "as soon as I came in......."

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2015, 01:07:57 PM
      Hmmmmm!

      Not sure about carpets to, but on the occasion Carew refers to, Eddie can be quite clearly seen in the video waiting patiently for Grime to take off his lead ....

      Yes he can be seen waiting patiently.  I have often wondered about, especially as Eddie wasn't particularly well behaved.

      As for my dog, she is old and demented, and I can't quite bring myself to have her put down.  Yet.

      However, it's interesting to discover that dogs have body language, beyond, "Where the hell is my dinner, you useless article of a dog owner."

      I shall view those Videos in a different light in future.  Presuming that I can be bothered to look at them again.

      Some of you really don't know what I subject myself to, in the interests of this Forum.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2015, 01:12:27 PM
      Ah well.........were you a professional Piss-Posture- Recognition- Expert you could ply your trade all over and have an enviable earning potential.

      Dog owners would be queuing up.
      .

      Oh dear.  Now that is really funny.  It made me laugh out loud.

      And Eddie did seem to have a bit of a problem with Martin Grime's.

      PS.  I have tried pointing at the offending puddle and telling her that she is for the chop if she doesn't mend her ways.  But she obviously doesn't get my body language.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2015, 01:14:53 PM
      Because a dog alerted to the scent of death in the home of Shannon Mathews,
      I do wonder what conclusion would have been arrived at, had the child been found deceased in a wood or somewhere else.
      Would they have investigated the possibility of the furniture in the home, being purchased from a deceased person?
      How could they know that the scent that was supposedly alerted too, was on furniture or who that scent belonged too?
      How do you check any antique or pre-owned furniture you may purchase, for cadaver scent? You can not!

      There are so many possible reasons for an alert of cadaver dog, that I do not believe any can be reliable, unless a body is found in the location of that alert. Just my opinion, of course.

      In a nut shell, Mrs. Senior Moderator.  Spot on as usual.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 21, 2015, 01:16:14 PM
      Apparently you are the one who attaches value to Eddie's alerts.  Ignoring the ones which have been corroborated either forensically or by Keela, why do you think the prosecutors discarded utilising any others in the prosecution of the Drs McCann?
      Then you 'only ask questions' and don't really listen to the answer if it doesn't suit ... or such has been my experience.

      Your "experience" or assessments of other posters are neither here nor there.

      You seem to need to resort to it though.

      Are you not "only asking questions" of the alerts and the handler, then?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 01:16:35 PM
      .

      Oh dear.  Now that is really funny.  It made me laugh out loud.

      And Eddie did seem to have a bit of a problem with Martin Grime's.

      PS.  I have tried pointing at the offending puddle and telling her that she is for the chop if she doesn't mend her ways.  But she obviously doesn't get my body language.

      Probably a bit off topic, but all in the training of a dog. Try a toy water pistol, when she squats to wee. Fire!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 21, 2015, 01:16:52 PM

      Have you?

      I have read enough to know that dogs can alert to the smell of something that had once been there such as a bloody rag or similar,  Eddie alerted to blood,  he would detect the scent even if there wasn't any blood there, cadaver dogs have also been known to alert to decaying vegetation,  Eddie alerted to the garden,  could be the scent of the garden was brought in on someone's shoes.

      If Madeleine had lain in that bedroom long enough for the scent of cadaver to be present then Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.

       @)(++(*

      Says who?

      And let us suppose he could, what would be the point of that remarkable ability

      ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2015, 01:19:32 PM
      Probably a bit off topic, but all in the training of a dog. Try a toy water pistol, when she squats to wee. Fire!

      If only, Anna.  But she never does it when I am watching her.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 01:28:41 PM
      @)(++(*

      Says who?

      And let us suppose he could, what would be the point of that remarkable ability

      ?

      Have you forgotten what it said in the article I give you a link to already?

      In the article it states that an alert by a cadaver dog needs to be taken with caution as someone could have left a bloody rag or a sanitary pad in the spot where the dog is alerting.

      Isn't it strange how some don't like criticism of Grime yet are quick to laugh and mock at what other experts at training cadaver dogs say.

      edited to add -

      Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.
       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 01:33:02 PM
      If Eddie had been outside somewhere looking for cadaver scent of Madeleine,   Grime wouldn't have been able to call him back numerous times as he wouldn't have known what Madeleine had been in contact with.   The fact that Eddie was in 5a a place that Madeleine had been living all week Grime could call Eddie back again and again,  if he hadn't Eddie would have ran out of the bedroom without alerting.

      In the other apartments Eddie just ran in and out of the rooms,  Grime didn't call him back constantly to the same room.

      If there had been cadaver scent in the bedroom Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.

      Eddie alerted straight away to the place where Keela alerted,   a tiny miniscule of what is believed to be blood under one of the tiles,   if that had been from where Madeleine had bled there would have been a lot more blood and Eddie would have alerted to the whole of the area behind the sofa.

      So to me,  no,   Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent in 5a.

      Hi Lace. You said recently that Eddie was re-trained from SAR to VRD. do you have a cite for that please?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 01:36:07 PM
      Because a dog alerted to the scent of death in the home of Shannon Mathews,
      I do wonder what conclusion would have been arrived at, had the child been found deceased in a wood or somewhere else.
      Would they have investigated the possibility of the furniture in the home, being purchased from a deceased person?
      How could they know that the scent that was supposedly alerted too, was on furniture or who that scent belonged too?
      How do you check any antique or pre-owned furniture you may purchase, for cadaver scent? You can not!

      There are so many possible reasons for an alert of cadaver dog, that I do not believe any can be reliable, unless a body is found in the location of that alert. Just my opinion, of course.


      If people could take the 'dog's don't lie' belief system out of the equation I think people would realise that there is still a great deal of scientific research and work going into understanding just exactly what it is that causes the dogs to react. 

      Because Shannon was very obviously alive they had to find out what caused the alerts, would they have bothered otherwise?

      If her remains had been found or she had not been found at all ... what would that have meant for the investigation and the misdirection of resources into her case.

      I agree with everything you have said in your post although I know that dogs do alert in areas where bodies have lain (eg ... soil contaminated by a corpse is used for training purposes and I read that when the containing jar is opened it is possible to discern a scent ... can't find the cite).

      Were I on a jury listening to cadaver scent evidence where remains or fragments had not been found ... I would not be a happy bunny.   

      **Snip
      But in the field, VR dogs can sometimes be distracted by “false positives”, such as dead animals, or even mushrooms, explained Lorna.  If she can arrive at a greater understanding of the chemistry of odours from human cadavers, then VR dogs can be extra efficient.
      https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 01:40:20 PM

      The fact remains there was no evidence, apart from blood, to substantiate alerts.  Opinion doesn't count.

        ... and I do wish you would refrain from shouting.

      Neither do opinions which say the alerts were not to cadaver scent, so all equal there.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 01:40:57 PM
      Hi Lace. You said recently that Eddie was re-trained from SAR to VRD. do you have a cite for that please?

      Hi G Unit this is a snip of what Martin Grime said about his dogs Eddie and Keela -


      A dog just needs to show a keen sense of smell and it's the training that makes them good enhanced victim recovery dogs, says Mr Grime. Eddie was bred by a specialist search-dog breeder and Keela came from the West Midlands Police breeding programme. Both live with Mr Grime and have a normal life outside of work.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2015, 01:43:23 PM
      Despite all the discussion
      The alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliability
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 01:45:27 PM
      Your "experience" or assessments of other posters are neither here nor there.

      You seem to need to resort to it though.

      Are you not "only asking questions" of the alerts and the handler, then?

      You don't have an opinion on the value of the alerts attributed to Eddie then?  Sorry about my mythconception on that.

      I bear in mind that it can be difficult to defend the indefensible.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 01:46:09 PM
      Neither do opinions which say the alerts were not to cadaver scent, so all equal there.

      Opinions of that sort are unjustly accusing and have no place in official police enquiries.

      Particularly by a dog-handler who kept one of the dog inspection videos for his own, personal, promotion on a separate case during the course of his (further) career as a free-lance dog-handler ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 01:48:39 PM
      Neither do opinions which say the alerts were not to cadaver scent, so all equal there.

          Not at all equal ... unless one gives no weight to what Eddie's handler has to say in his rogatory statement.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 01:50:10 PM
      Hi G Unit this is a snip of what Martin Grime said about his dogs Eddie and Keela -


      A dog just needs to show a keen sense of smell and it's the training that makes them good enhanced victim recovery dogs, says Mr Grime. Eddie was bred by a specialist search-dog breeder and Keela came from the West Midlands Police breeding programme. Both live with Mr Grime and have a normal life outside of work.

      So no mention of Eddie being re-trained then? Is that quote in the files?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2015, 01:51:50 PM
      Eddie seems to have a lot alerts.....is there any case he attended where he did not alert...a new and very interesting question
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 01:54:00 PM
      Eddie seems to have a lot alerts.....is there any case he attended where he did not alert...a new and very interesting question



      Not in the slightest.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 01:58:21 PM
      Opinions of that sort are unjustly accusing and have no place in official police enquiries.

      Particularly by a dog-handler who kept one of the dog inspection videos for his own, personal, promotion on a separate case during the course of his (further) career as a free-lance dog-handler ....

      One wonders about that.


      Then everyone seems to have been working assiduously at beavering away in the background to turn Madeleine's case into a cash cow.

      The dogs ... the dream ... and Mr Amaral's book - all neatly intertwined.  Pity the same attentiveness hadn't been given to actually looking for Madeleine when the opportunity was there. 

         
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 02:03:55 PM

      If people could take the 'dog's don't lie' belief system out of the equation I think people would realise that there is still a great deal of scientific research and work going into understanding just exactly what it is that causes the dogs to react. 

      Because Shannon was very obviously alive they had to find out what caused the alerts, would they have bothered otherwise?

      If her remains had been found or she had not been found at all ... what would that have meant for the investigation and the misdirection of resources into her case.

      I agree with everything you have said in your post although I know that dogs do alert in areas where bodies have lain (eg ... soil contaminated by a corpse is used for training purposes and I read that when the containing jar is opened it is possible to discern a scent ... can't find the cite).

      Were I on a jury listening to cadaver scent evidence where remains or fragments had not been found ... I would not be a happy bunny.   

      **Snip
      But in the field, VR dogs can sometimes be distracted by “false positives”, such as dead animals, or even mushrooms, explained Lorna.  If she can arrive at a greater understanding of the chemistry of odours from human cadavers, then VR dogs can be extra efficient.
      https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php

      I know these dogs can scent many things that we are unable to even smell and they do a great job in assisting the police in many cases.

      However, when they are being tested the examiner knows what has been introduced to the dogs on the test.
      No amount of testing can replace a real crime scene.

      Nobody knows what exactly the dog is alerting too or why, when it comes to an alert in a real investigation(unless there is a body of evidence).

      Alert of blood or other body fluids, may be corroborated at the laboratory, but this is not the case in, (supposed)  residual scent.

      So as Mr Grime said.......................................................
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 02:09:53 PM
          Not at all equal ... unless one gives no weight to what Eddie's handler has to say in his rogatory statement.

      Interesting. Just to clear up one point which has been questioned, Grime was working for South Yorkshire Police when he was in PdL;

      Between August 1-8, 2007, and while working for the South Yorkshire police, I collaborated with the Judicial Police, Portugal, as regards their Operations Task Force.

      Although no evidence of a body was found, this statement is pretty strong imo;

      'Is there any chance, however remote, of any confusion'

      The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 21, 2015, 02:10:25 PM

      His work seems to have been "within the bounds of reasonable handling" since no official censure has been forthcoming.

      As is oft repeated with regard to Madeleine`s parents, why should he accommodate the "only asking questions" section of forumites ?
      Which authority would you expect to have "censured" Grime?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 02:17:18 PM
      So no mention of Eddie being re-trained then? Is that quote in the files?

      Is Eddie a cadaver dog -   

      Cadaver Dog
       A narrow term, used in a search-and-rescue context, to indicate a canine primarily trained as a tracking or air-scent dog that has also received cross training in the location of dead human bodies.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 21, 2015, 02:18:12 PM
      Which authority would you expect to have "censured" Grime?

      Nothing official forthcoming from anywhere that you know of then?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 21, 2015, 02:20:12 PM
      So no mention of Eddie being re-trained then? Is that quote in the files?

      How many cadaver dogs are taught to bark when they identify the scent which they are being trained to find?
      Air scenting/barking/scrabbling are all part of search & rescue dog training.
      Why was Eddie trained differently if he was only ever to be a cadaver dog?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 02:21:32 PM
      Or was Eddie a Forensic search dog -

      Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
       A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 02:29:39 PM
      Or was Eddie a Forensic search dog -

      Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
       A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

      He was IIRC trained solely by Mr Grime.....So who knows.

      Search Asset Profile

      'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 02:31:26 PM
      Or was Eddie a Forensic search dog -

      Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
       A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

      There could be some confusion concerning the classification and training of dogs - it seems far from uniform.

      Some dogs - in whichever country - may have been retrained at some point, and others trained for specific purposes from the start.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 02:35:51 PM
      Interesting. Just to clear up one point which has been questioned, Grime was working for South Yorkshire Police when he was in PdL;

      Between August 1-8, 2007, and while working for the South Yorkshire police, I collaborated with the Judicial Police, Portugal, as regards their Operations Task Force.

      Although no evidence of a body was found, this statement is pretty strong imo;

      'Is there any chance, however remote, of any confusion'

      The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      When was the 5A inspection?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 02:37:02 PM
      Is Eddie a cadaver dog -   

      Cadaver Dog
       A narrow term, used in a search-and-rescue context, to indicate a canine primarily trained as a tracking or air-scent dog that has also received cross training in the location of dead human bodies.

      He may track or air-scent (I'm not sure how he worked), but he would follow the scent of a dead, not a living person.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2015, 02:38:11 PM



      Not in the slightest.

      so there is no case where eddie did not alert to a dead body scent...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 02:46:05 PM
      When was the 5A inspection?

      Why are you asking me? It's in the files, I believe - hopefully they managed to translate dates correctly. I will say that it was within the dates quoted.  8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 02:46:37 PM
      He may track or air-scent (I'm not sure how he worked), but he would follow the scent of a dead, not a living person.

      What did Eddie alert to in the garden?    I find it difficult to believe that Madeleine lay firstly behind the sofa then in the bedroom as well as in the garden.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 21, 2015, 02:46:50 PM
      Or was Eddie a Forensic search dog -

      Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
       A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

      Eddie wasn't one these then was he?
      After all he alerted to sea bass, nappies and practically everything under the sun that he wasn't trained to alert to, sniffed things for reward or because he was bored and wanted to go home or because he was primed like Clever Hans; or was that Keela?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UiSMyyj-Ac
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 02:53:35 PM
      Eddie wasn't one these then was he?
      After all he alerted to sea bass, nappies and practically everything under the sun that he wasn't trained to alert to, sniffed things for reward or because he was bored and wanted to go home or because he was primed like Clever Hans; or was that Keela?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UiSMyyj-Ac

      No he wasn't as Grime said he was an 'Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog'.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 21, 2015, 03:03:22 PM
      Nothing official forthcoming from anywhere that you know of then?
      I'm asking you who do you think would have issued an official censure?  Is there a governing body of Cadaver Dog Handlers or something?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2015, 03:06:40 PM

      Poor old Eddie.  A good dog.  I feel really sorry for him.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 03:12:28 PM
      Poor old Eddie.  A good dog.  I feel really sorry for him.

      He has taken some flak, but he hasn't been proved wrong yet.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 03:12:36 PM
      Anyone know what Martin Grime means when he says 'Enhanced'   as in 'Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog'   as how he trains the dogs is  confidential.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 03:29:23 PM
      He has taken some flak, but he hasn't been proved wrong yet.

      I have no doubt he was a good victim recovery dog,  he could sniff out blood that's for sure.   If there was a body to find I am sure he would find it.

      In Madeleine's case though there was no body and I don't believe there was sufficient time for there to have been cadaver scent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 03:30:16 PM
      Anyone know what Martin Grime means when he says 'Enhanced'   as in 'Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog'   as how he trains the dogs is  confidential.

      Possibly through having sniffed human remains at the Body Farm (if he ever visited).

      And, quite possibly, through gauze pads of human cadaver scent presumably sent through the post (if that idea ever took off suffiiciently to offer regular train opportunities).

      The enhanced
      training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
      odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
      contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
      contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
      recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
      sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
      successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
      material.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2015, 03:45:10 PM
      so does anyone know of a case where eddie did not alert
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 03:49:43 PM
      I don’t think that blame should be laid at anyone’s feet….. We don’t know what caused the alerts by the dog.

      Eddie’s alerts:
      IMO, The only choices are:-

      1. The scent was left there (wardrobe) during the weeks before the dog’s inspection.
       
      How?


      2. False alert

      Always possible.


      3. True alert to a cadaver scent left in the wardrobe.

      But how did the scent avoid the Payne’s apartment and the apartment that the McCanns stayed in (with these clothes) before the Villa?


      4. X contamination via cleaners, police and many other possibilities

      Since the scent didn’t follow them to Payne’s or the other apartment, Would it not have had to be introduced to the wardrobe, after they stayed in 5A and the other apartments?
      However we then we find the dog alerted to clothing at the Villa???


      5. An item in the possession of the McCann family, with a close resemblance to, or part of the formula 
          of Cadaverine/putriscine that may have  X-contaminated the wardrobe and clothing.

      So what could this be ?

      6. Unconscious cueing.


      Please add what I  have most probably missed.

      …………………….

      It would be interesting to see what a cadaver dog found of interest in the McCanns present home.

      The previous occupants of 5A should have been checked by the dogs as well around the time the dog inspections were being carried out.
       I am sure they would have used the wardrobe and therefore, should have the scent on their clothing.
      If not………………………………....

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 03:59:35 PM
      Did Grime ever state that he thought that it was Madeleine's blood? I don't recall that.

      Both dogs alerted to the key card (last used by the PT police driving it to the inspection venue unless a tow truck was involved throughout the process).

      AFAIK, it was Amaral who made a song and dance about the (in)significant results.

      They were looking for Madeleine's blood.

      Nothing else ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 04:00:32 PM
      They were looking for Madeleine's blood.

      Nothing else ....

      Well they suspected she was dead.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 04:01:46 PM
      so does anyone know of a case where eddie did not alert

      Interesting question...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 04:03:12 PM
      I have no doubt he was a good victim recovery dog,  he could sniff out blood that's for sure.   If there was a body to find I am sure he would find it.

      In Madeleine's case though there was no body and I don't believe there was sufficient time for there to have been cadaver scent.

      Depends what time a death occurred.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 04:04:27 PM
      Interesting question...

      In the McCann case there were loads of places where Eddie didn't alert.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 04:04:58 PM
      Well they suspected she was dead.

      They needs to be carefully defined.

      Harrison was instructed by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered, and did so.

      Harrison himself never formed any firm conclusion about what might have happened to Madeleine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 04:11:48 PM
      They were looking for Madeleine's blood.

      Nothing else ....

      Yes, the hunch appears to have been that Madeleine's remains (blood or other subsatances) would be found in the Scenic. Despite lurid headlines from half-baked leaks, this wasn't the case.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 04:13:02 PM
      They needs to be carefully defined.

      Harrison was instructed by the PJ to investigate that Madeleine had been murdered, and did so.

      Harrison himself never formed any firm conclusion about what might have happened to Madeleine.

      Agree with you on that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 04:16:59 PM
      In the McCann case there were loads of places where Eddie didn't alert.

      True G, but he did however give alerts in this case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2015, 04:21:38 PM
      In the McCann case there were loads of places where Eddie didn't alert.

      Im asking about a crime scene where no alerts at all were given
      If Eddie alerts he can never be proved wrong
      If he doesn't alert he can be proved wrong
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 21, 2015, 04:25:29 PM
      Anyone know what Martin Grime means when he says 'Enhanced'   as in 'Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog'   as how he trains the dogs is  confidential.

      "A standard sniffer dog is like a basic tool. An enhanced dog goes through much more training and is a lot more discriminating about smells, basically its nose is super sensitive. Other dogs have to do other police duties but mine work full-time in this area, making them very sharp and highly skilled."

      Eddie is an enhanced victim recovery dog and is specially trained to detect the scent of human remains.

      The enhanced training of the dog involves the use of collection of 'Dead body scent' odour from corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact.
      The E.V.R.D. will locate cadaver, whether in the whole or parts thereof; deposited surface or sub-surface to a depth of approximately 3-4 feet shortly after death to the advanced stages of deposition and putrefaction through to skeletal. This includes incinerated remains even if large quantities of accelerant have been involved.
      The dog will locate human cadaver in water either from the bank side or when deployed in a boat where a large area may be covered using a gridding system.
      The dog has also been trained to identify 'dead body' scent contamination where there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles.
      Whereas there may be no retrievable evidence for court purposes this may well assist intelligence gathering in Major Crime investigations.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2015, 04:28:32 PM
      Could any one tell me what the alerts tell us
      As far as I can see they tell us nothing
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 04:36:06 PM
      Eddie wasn't one these then was he?
      After all he alerted to sea bass, nappies and practically everything under the sun that he wasn't trained to alert to, sniffed things for reward or because he was bored and wanted to go home or because he was primed like Clever Hans; or was that Keela?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UiSMyyj-Ac

      Keela alerted to what she was supposed to which was confirmed by forensics.  Worth noting that of her alerts only one, the key fob, is linked to the McCann family.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2015, 04:39:44 PM
      He has taken some flak, but he hasn't been proved wrong yet.

      And of course, this was never possible.  And I can't be bothered to go though the whole gamut again.  He was just a dog.  But I do have a nasty suspicion that A Portuguese Court might have been coerced into believing this shite.  They had already been coerced into less.  The shame of which I hope will live with them forever.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 21, 2015, 04:57:21 PM
      A half competent defence would have wiped the floor with him.

      But the interesting thing is how would a competent defence have operated in a Portuguese Court?  Sheesh, what a nightmare.  No one speaks English?
      But be sure that Amaral would have had The McCanns charged and put on Trial if he could have gotten away with it.  I don't think anyone doubts that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2015, 06:37:35 PM
      The truth about the alerts is that they have no evidential reliability
      The truth about Grime is that he was asked if he could confirm the cuddle cat alert
      He avoided answering the question
      The truth is that the PJ questioned the credibility of the alerts having seen the dogs repeatedly ignore things before alerting to them
      The truth is the alerts are BS
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 06:51:46 PM
      Possibly through having sniffed human remains at the Body Farm (if he ever visited).

      And, quite possibly, through gauze pads of human cadaver scent presumably sent through the post (if that idea ever took off suffiiciently to offer regular train opportunities).

      The enhanced
      training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
      odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
      contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
      contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
      recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
      sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
      successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
      material.

      Thanks Carana,  so he was extra trained from a victim recovery dog to an enhanced victim recovery dog,  yet a forensic dog is trained solely on human remains.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: John on August 21, 2015, 06:56:29 PM
      Curiously or otherwise, the only places and objects alerted to by Eddie have associations with the McCanns.   Are we to accept this was purely accidental or is there something more sinister in it all?

      Or was it a case of, if you point the dogs to the same places and objects often enough, sooner or later they will react?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 06:58:23 PM
      Curiously or otherwise, the only places and objects alerted to by Eddie have associations with the McCanns.   Are we to accept this was purely accidental or is there something more sinister in it all?

      The problem I have John is that Eddie was repeatedly called back in 5a yet not in the other apartments.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: John on August 21, 2015, 07:07:33 PM
      The problem I have John is that Eddie was repeatedly called back in 5a yet not in the other apartments.

      An excellent example of that was what occurred in the underground garage where the McCann's hire car sat parked in a corner at the end of a line of other cars with the Madeleine posters on it.  Eddie made no reaction to the McCann's car and had to be called back several times by Mr Grime before eventually reacting at the drivers door.  That one incident illustrates perfectly how a handler can impact on the dog and its alerts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 21, 2015, 07:12:29 PM
      An excellent example of that was what occurred in the underground garage where the McCann's hire car sat parked in a corner at the end of a line of other cars with the Madeleine posters on it.  Eddie made no reaction to the McCann's car and had to be called back several times by Mr Grime before eventually reacting at the drivers door.  That one incident illustrates perfectly how a handler can impact on the dog and its alerts.
      8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 21, 2015, 07:18:49 PM
      Curiously or otherwise, the only places and objects alerted to by Eddie have associations with the McCanns.   Are we to accept this was purely accidental or is there something more sinister in it all?

      Or was it a case of, if you point the dogs to the same places and objects often enough, sooner or later they will react?

      You are bang on John
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 21, 2015, 07:22:58 PM
      An excellent example of that was what occurred in the underground garage where the McCanns hire car sat parked in a corner at the end of a line of other cars with the Madeleine posters on it.  Eddie made no reaction to the McCann's car and had to be called back several times by Mr Grime before eventually reacting at the drivers door.  That one incident illustrates perfectly how a handler can impact on the dog and its alerts.

      Mr Grime reports noticing a change in the dog`s behaviour between the 2 cars, as he did with the start of the investigation in 5A.

      Isn`t the directing a part of the "handling" procedure to focus the dog?

      The handler felt the dog was in scent but what is being said in effect, is that this was not so.

      We have a handler who said it was.







      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 07:41:57 PM
      Mr Grime reports noticing a change in the dog`s behaviour between the 2 cars, as he did with the start of the investigation in 5A.

      Isn`t the directing a part of the "handling" procedure to focus the dog?

      The handler felt the dog was in scent but what is being said in effect, is that this was not so.

      We have a handler who said it was.

      Why do you suppose the video of the vehicle inspection was, afterwards, handed to Grime for his own, personal, use (as a free-lance dog handler)?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 09:22:21 PM
      Thanks Carana,  so he was extra trained from a victim recovery dog to an enhanced victim recovery dog,  yet a forensic dog is trained solely on human remains.

      Training and terminology don't appear to conform to any universal standard at the moment.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 21, 2015, 09:23:56 PM
      Have you forgotten what it said in the article I give you a link to already?

      In the article it states that an alert by a cadaver dog needs to be taken with caution as someone could have left a bloody rag or a sanitary pad in the spot where the dog is alerting.

      Isn't it strange how some don't like criticism of Grime yet are quick to laugh and mock at what other experts at training cadaver dogs say.

      edited to add -

      Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.

      I do not know which  link you refer to as there have been so many asserting this that or the other. In the end, they are for various cadaver dogs worldwide with different handlers, training and way of working, alerts, performance and results. We are talking about Eddie the EVRD dog and Mr Grime specifically has stated Eddie was NOT trained for "live human" odours. He was trained on decomposing piglets initially and then mainly on  human corpses.Decomposing teeth, nails, human tissue, blood ,urine, nappy pooh and all the rest, etc from live humans do not develop the same scent as corpse decomposition.
      See his rogatory interview.
      BTW There is no reference anywhere to Eddie ever being a search and rescue dog. The above should show that. No mention of cross training either. No mention or record of deployment to find missing live people.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 09:36:18 PM
      I do not know which  link you refer to as there have been so many asserting this that or the other. In the end, they are for various cadaver dogs worldwide with different handlers, training and way of working, alerts, performance and results. We are talking about Eddie the EVRD dog and Mr Grime specifically has stated Eddie was NOT trained for "live human" odours. He was trained on decomposing piglets initially and then mainly on  human corpses.Decomposing teeth, nails, human tissue, blood ,urine, nappy pooh and all the rest, etc from live humans do not develop the same scent as corpse decomposition.
      See his rogatory interview.
      BTW There is no reference anywhere to Eddie ever being a search and rescue dog. The above should show that. No mention of cross training either. No mention or record of deployment to find missing live people.


      I have given you the section of the article referring to cadaver dogs being to detect the scent of blood even if the article isn't there.

      Eddie was trained as a victim recovery dog by using pigs,   then had 'enhanced'   training with dead human bodies.   Forensic search dogs are only trained using dead human bodies and nothing else,  therefore Eddie was cross trained.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 21, 2015, 09:39:33 PM
      I do not know which  link you refer to as there have been so many asserting this that or the other. In the end, they are for various cadaver dogs worldwide with different handlers, training and way of working, alerts, performance and results. We are talking about Eddie the EVRD dog and Mr Grime specifically has stated Eddie was NOT trained for "live human" odours. He was trained on decomposing piglets initially and then mainly on  human corpses.Decomposing teeth, nails, human tissue, blood ,urine, nappy pooh and all the rest, etc from live humans do not develop the same scent as corpse decomposition.
      See his rogatory interview.
      BTW There is no reference anywhere to Eddie ever being a search and rescue dog. The above should show that. No mention of cross training either. No mention or record of deployment to find missing live people.

      Also Grime said that Eddie will alert to blood,  indeed Eddie alerted to the key fob which had Gerry's blood on it and he is very much alive.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 09:39:57 PM
      I do not know which  link you refer to as there have been so many asserting this that or the other. In the end, they are for various cadaver dogs worldwide with different handlers, training and way of working, alerts, performance and results. We are talking about Eddie the EVRD dog and Mr Grime specifically has stated Eddie was NOT trained for "live human" odours. He was trained on decomposing piglets initially and then mainly on  human corpses.Decomposing teeth, nails, human tissue, blood ,urine, nappy pooh and all the rest, etc from live humans do not develop the same scent as corpse decomposition.
      See his rogatory interview.
      BTW There is no reference anywhere to Eddie ever being a search and rescue dog. The above should show that. No mention of cross training either. No mention or record of deployment to find missing live people.

                    You are aware that it is illegal to train dogs "mainly on human corpses" in Britain?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 09:40:44 PM
      Police use the dogs in most cases of disappearance these days. They sometimes find evidence and sometimes they provide clues as to what may have happened. In the McCann case they found some evidence and some clues in my opinion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 21, 2015, 09:43:47 PM

      I have given you the section of the article referring to cadaver dogs being to detect the scent of blood even if the article isn't there.

      Eddie was trained as a victim recovery dog by using pigs,   then had 'enhanced'   training with dead human bodies.   Forensic search dogs are only trained using dead human bodies and nothing else,  therefore Eddie was cross trained.

      Oh sorry, I didnt realise that quote was from the said link,my apologies

      Cross trained does not mean moving from dead pigs to dead humans....that is how cadaver dogs are trained in the uk and he then moved to training in the usa where training on human bodies is allowed...the training has the same goal..to look for decomposed bodies/remains not live humans or live humans' various "sheddings"

      (with the exception of blood)



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 09:43:53 PM
                    You are aware that it is illegal to train dogs "mainly on human corpses" in Britain?

      That's been gone over before. 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 21, 2015, 09:45:54 PM

      I have given you the section of the article referring to cadaver dogs being to detect the scent of blood even if the article isn't there.

      Eddie was trained as a victim recovery dog by using pigs,   then had 'enhanced'   training with dead human bodies.   Forensic search dogs are only trained using dead human bodies and nothing else,  therefore Eddie was cross trained.

      Eddie was trained to find the scent of a dead human, initially using decomposing piglets which smell so similar that VRD's trained in this way can find dead humans. His training was enhanced when he was given the actual scent of a dead human. No cross-training, all his training was aimed at finding dead human beings.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 21, 2015, 09:49:29 PM
                    You are aware that it is illegal to train dogs "mainly on human corpses" in Britain?

      yes, thats why the handler/trainer travelled to  the usa to do it

      !

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 09:55:18 PM
      yes, thats why the handler/trainer travelled to  the usa to do it

      !

      With a dog about 18 months from retirement?

      And given that we have a tried-and-trusted method of training cadaver dogs in Britain (also used in States of the United States where use of human remains is similarly prohibited) because we regard it as unethical to use human body parts or remains, why would we indulge both the expense and the hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways banned as unethical here?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 21, 2015, 09:57:57 PM
      I do not know which  link you refer to as there have been so many asserting this that or the other. In the end, they are for various cadaver dogs worldwide with different handlers, training and way of working, alerts, performance and results. We are talking about Eddie the EVRD dog and Mr Grime specifically has stated Eddie was NOT trained for "live human" odours. He was trained on decomposing piglets initially and then mainly on  human corpses.Decomposing teeth, nails, human tissue, blood ,urine, nappy pooh and all the rest, etc from live humans do not develop the same scent as corpse decomposition.
      See his rogatory interview.
      BTW There is no reference anywhere to Eddie ever being a search and rescue dog. The above should show that. No mention of cross training either. No mention or record of deployment to find missing live people.


      He reacts to dried blood from a living human being.

      I was giving Eddie credit for possibly having alerted in the general area of the milk teeth in Jersey. Are you saying that he didn't react to them?

      Deciduous teeth count as human remains, don't they? If not, what are they?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 21, 2015, 10:00:10 PM
      With a dog about 18 months from retirement?

      And given that we have a tried-and-trusted method of training cadaver dogs in Britain (also used in States of the United States where use of human remains is similarly prohibited) because we regard it as unethical to use human body parts or remains, why would we indulge both the expense and the hypocrisy of sending dogs to America to be trained in ways banned as unethical here?

      Yet other professions use human body parts for 'training'  in the UK.

      It would also render the dogs more effective, as Grime obviously realized.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 21, 2015, 10:03:10 PM
      Yet other professions use human body parts for 'training'  in the UK.

      It would also render the dogs more effective, as Grime obviously realized.

      Not on the evidence of PdL and Haut de La Garenne ....

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 10:04:44 PM
      yes, thats why the handler/trainer travelled to  the usa to do it

      !

                                                           Then you will have a cite for that?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 21, 2015, 10:11:27 PM
      Eddie was trained to find the scent of a dead human, initially using decomposing piglets which smell so similar that VRD's trained in this way can find dead humans. His training was enhanced when he was given the actual scent of a dead human. No cross-training, all his training was aimed at finding dead human beings.

      Actually ... scientists have discovered that we probably smell more like chicken when we decompose rather than pig.

      **Snip
      Additionally, while “…we humans smell much more like chicken than pig when we decompose,” cadaver detection dogs should only be trained on human remains.
      http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/dog-spies/dog-of-the-dead-the-science-of-canine-cadaver-detection/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 10:40:01 PM

      He reacts to dried blood from a living human being.

      I was giving Eddie credit for possibly having alerted in the general area of the milk teeth in Jersey. Are you saying that he didn't react to them?

      Deciduous teeth count as human remains, don't they? If not, what are they?

      'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
      The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 21, 2015, 10:45:44 PM
      I didn't know that anybody did. However the forensic team would have and possibly the GNR.
      I don't recall seeing any statement specifically stating "That night I moved the sofa out and looked behind it".
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 10:50:16 PM
      I don't recall seeing any statement specifically stating "That night I moved the sofa out and looked behind it".

      You are probably correct. I thought there was forensic photographs of the curtains and window wall in the lounge.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 21, 2015, 10:52:05 PM

      He reacts to dried blood from a living human being.

      I was giving Eddie credit for possibly having alerted in the general area of the milk teeth in Jersey. Are you saying that he didn't react to them?

      Deciduous teeth count as human remains, don't they? If not, what are they?
      Yes of course, I meant to put that in my post though "everyone knows it is a given by now" but in PDL it matters not as Keela found no blood for his (not confirmed by Keela) alerts, even though apparently some thnk he reatcs to its remnant scent

      I have no idea if Eddie alerted to teeth
      Maybe he did, teeth were found, maybe it was not to the teeth
      I am no expert
      I type as I find
      What do you think Grime means when he says Eddie was not trained for live human odours BUT he will react to blood. Do you thnk he meant to include all the possibilities that are touted and forgot to put them in his profile?
      No teeth,plasters, pee pools, nappies, period blood, nails, and lets not forget bacon sandwhiches were found in flat 5a

      and I find it hard to believe Eddie would react to "remnant scent" of "everyday" occurrences because he alerted to nothng anywhere else in all the searches of reaidences and other areas which is beyond the odds IMO



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 21, 2015, 10:54:38 PM
                                                           Then you will have a cite for that?

      It is in his profile!

      Unless you thnk the scent pads were sent by post back to england?

      (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VOLUME_IXprocesso_2263.jpg)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 21, 2015, 11:03:41 PM
      You are probably correct. I thought there was forensic photographs of the curtains and window wall in the lounge.
      The photos you are remembering were taken months later on 1st August 2007.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
      IMO there is no-one, not a single tourist, GNR officer, PJ officer, or Forensics officer, who states specifically
       "That night I moved the sofa away from the wall to look behind it then pushed it back against the wall"
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 21, 2015, 11:10:31 PM
      The photos you are remembering were taken months later on 1st August 2007.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
      IMO there is no-one, not a single tourist, GNR officer, PJ officer, or Forensics officer, who states specifically
       "That night I moved the sofa away from the wall to look behind it then pushed it back against the wall"

      Yes, I found it, Pegasus. So what are you saying?

      (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/V/08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2192_a.jpg)

      ETA image
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 21, 2015, 11:14:05 PM
      I don't recall seeing any statement specifically stating "That night I moved the sofa out and looked behind it".

      Kate doesn't mention checking anywhere in the living room in her book.
      Had the settee been moved from the position the parents left it in (pushed against the wall/curtains) would that not have prompted an immediate check behind it?

      Were the clothes marked by Eddie ever subjected to further forensic tests for the presence of cadaverine deposits?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 21, 2015, 11:19:52 PM
      Kate doesn't mention checking anywhere in the living room in her book.
      Had the settee been moved from the position the parents left it in (pushed against the wall/curtains) would that not have prompted an immediate check behind it?

      Were the clothes marked by Eddie ever subjected to further forensic tests for the presence of cadaverine deposits?
      No, because there is no such test. Keela did not find blood on them so her potential alerts could have been tested
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 21, 2015, 11:27:54 PM
      No, because there is no such test. Keela did not find blood on them so her potential alerts could have been tested

      Since when did forensics only test clothing for blood?
      If cadaverscent can be deposited on scent pads to be used for dog training, then there are chemicals which can be tested for, aren't there?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 21, 2015, 11:35:47 PM
      Since when did forensics only test clothing for blood?
      If cadaverscent can be deposited on scent pads to be used for dog training, then there are chemicals which can be tested for, aren't there?

      No, not really, its complex and not that easy
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 21, 2015, 11:40:41 PM
      No, not really, its complex and not that easy

      Was there any evidence that the clothing Eddie marked had not absorbed any non-blood deposits?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 21, 2015, 11:43:29 PM
      Was there any evidence that the clothing Eddie marked had not absorbed any non-blood deposits?

      Such as?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 21, 2015, 11:48:41 PM
      I guess when one reads the Archiving Report one can understand the broohaha about the dogs. Woof.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 22, 2015, 12:04:20 AM
      Such as?

      Putrescine. Dimethyl sulphide. (If you can bottle it you can test for it)
       Fibres from Madeleine's pyjamas.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 22, 2015, 12:16:24 AM
      Putrescine. Dimethyl sulphide. (If you can bottle it you can test for it)
       Fibres from Madeleine's pyjamas.

      You have been doing your homework, Misty

      Nylon and plastic contain :-
      Putriscine 4 carbon atoms in chain between amines, which is chemically similar cadaverine 5 carbon atoms between amines ends,  as they are both Diamines with a short hydrocarbon chains with primary amines group either end


      =Methane + Putriscine diamines are two  main ingredients of cadaverine

      .............................................
      Now add polystyrene (C8H8)n


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 22, 2015, 12:42:25 AM
      Putrescine. Dimethyl sulphide. (If you can bottle it you can test for it)
       Fibres from Madeleine's pyjamas.

      They are not the "scent of death" anyway

      @Anna I hope you are not  saying Eddie alerted to  plastic and polystyrene now! What about egg boxes?

       @)(++(*

      This is getting silly

      Goodnight
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 22, 2015, 12:52:12 AM
      They are not the "scent of death" anyway

      @Anna I hope you are not  saying Eddie alerted to  plastic and polystyrene now! What about egg boxes?

       @)(++(*

      This is getting silly

      Goodnight


      putrescine and cadaverine—are responsible for the characteristic odour of a decaying corpse.

      How do you know what the dog could smell? It could mean nothing, but then again...........................
      I haven't finished my calculations, but it is a possibility. I am sure most will not accept, but worth the research.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 22, 2015, 12:56:05 AM
      You have been doing your homework, Misty

      Nylon and plastic contain :-
      Putriscine 4 carbon atoms in chain between amines, which is chemically similar cadaverine 5 carbon atoms between amines ends,  as they are both Diamines with a short hydrocarbon chains with primary amines group either end


      =Methane + Putriscine diamines are two  main ingredients of cadaverine

      .............................................
      Now add polystyrene (C8H8)n

      I must confess I used this article as a guide.
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

      This part was interesting:-
      A human cadaver dog's detection skills depend greatly on its training, and the problem is that human remains are hard to come by. Trainers often use a combination of available "pseudoscents", and pigs. The problem with pseudoscents, says Mick Swindells, a retired police handler who works as a freelance trainer and handler in Blackpool, is that they represent a "snapshot" of death. As decomposition proceeds, the chemistry of the corpse evolves, causing its odour to change. "I'm trying to train a dog to find the whole video, not just a snapshot," he says. Pigs decompose in similarly to humans, and when buried they disturb the ground in a similar way.

      as was this part:-
      On another occasion, Swindells and one of his dogs were searching a house when the dog signalled. A cache of bones was found beneath the floorboards at the spot – but they were later identified as pig. Pig carcasses are used in training cadaver dogs. But why would anybody hide a dead pig? The dating of the bones gave a clue: they had probably been buried during the Second World War, when pork was rationed and penalties for dabbling in the black market were severe.

                                           --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      But back to the clothing. Why, if something suspicious was detected, were no further tests apparently carried out?
      There may have been soil traces on the trousers, or other forensics. Why did Amaral not follow this up immediately, in light of his mantra that "every contact leaves a trace"?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 22, 2015, 01:12:05 AM
      I must confess I used this article as a guide.
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

      This part was interesting:-
      A human cadaver dog's detection skills depend greatly on its training, and the problem is that human remains are hard to come by. Trainers often use a combination of available "pseudoscents", and pigs. The problem with pseudoscents, says Mick Swindells, a retired police handler who works as a freelance trainer and handler in Blackpool, is that they represent a "snapshot" of death. As decomposition proceeds, the chemistry of the corpse evolves, causing its odour to change. "I'm trying to train a dog to find the whole video, not just a snapshot," he says. Pigs decompose in similarly to humans, and when buried they disturb the ground in a similar way.

      as was this part:-
      On another occasion, Swindells and one of his dogs were searching a house when the dog signalled. A cache of bones was found beneath the floorboards at the spot – but they were later identified as pig. Pig carcasses are used in training cadaver dogs. But why would anybody hide a dead pig? The dating of the bones gave a clue: they had probably been buried during the Second World War, when pork was rationed and penalties for dabbling in the black market were severe.

                                           --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      But back to the clothing. Why, if something suspicious was detected, were no further tests apparently carried out?
      There may have been soil traces on the trousers, or other forensics. Why did Amaral not follow this up immediately, in light of his mantra that "every contact leaves a trace"?

      Methane which is a gas in polyurethane(No, not egg boxes) and putriscine are 2 separate things, but they make up the formula almost complete of cadaver scent.
      It would not be as strong as the scent from a cadaver, but would be stronger if it, or items it had X contaminated were shut in a box or cupboard to allow the scent to accumulate.
      I wasn't  thinking of clothing really, but it would be X contaminated.
      I will hold fire with the rest of my thoughts, until I have finished triple checking.
      I could be completely wrong in my calculations of course.
      Then were back to True alert or false alert.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 22, 2015, 01:32:54 AM

      But back to the clothing. Why, if something suspicious was detected, were no further tests apparently carried out?
      There may have been soil traces on the trousers, or other forensics. Why did Amaral not follow this up immediately, in light of his mantra that "every contact leaves a trace"?

      Sorry Misty, I didn't answer this part of your post. I have no idea what Amaral was thinking.
      However It would have been very difficult to pinpoint the item(s) that could possibly have been the cause of alerts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 22, 2015, 02:06:05 AM
      Sorry Misty, I didn't answer this part of your post. I have no idea what Amaral was thinking.
      However It would have been very difficult to pinpoint the item(s) that could possibly have been the cause of alerts.

      If Amaral suspected Kate of wearing the white top & checked trousers and being in contact with Madeleine's corpse, surely basic police training would have made him want to test the items for further forensic evidence than just cadaver odour? Unless. of course, cadaver contamination was all he expected to find? The car key was tested (no-one would have known Gerry's blood was on the key), the wheel-well casing was tested, the floor tiles were tested, the foliage in the garden was tested, Cuddlecat had already been to forensics in June - so why did he overlook further testing on the clothes & wardrobe interior? It makes no sense - unless forensic testing would have picked up something which would have been difficult to explain.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 07:26:24 AM
      You have been doing your homework, Misty

      Nylon and plastic contain :-
      Putriscine 4 carbon atoms in chain between amines, which is chemically similar cadaverine 5 carbon atoms between amines ends,  as they are both Diamines with a short hydrocarbon chains with primary amines group either end


      =Methane + Putriscine diamines are two  main ingredients of cadaverine

      .............................................
      Now add polystyrene (C8H8)n

      Now which 'nylons' i.e. polyamides are you referring to ?

      There is a range of compounds involved, and that doesn't include the self condensing monomer constituents.

      Why add Polyphenylethene to this list Anna ?

      and methane ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 07:42:50 AM
      Alerts have no evidential reliability
      Basically BS
      Maddie may still be alive
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 07:44:53 AM
      Alerts have no evidential reliability
      Basically BS
      Maddie may still be alive

      Where ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 22, 2015, 08:22:46 AM
      Where ?
      Now that is the million dollar question !

      Almost certainly not in PdL or nearby, and never has been.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 22, 2015, 08:30:18 AM
      this is what you said:-

      And given that we have a tried-and-trusted method of training cadaver dogs in Britain (also used in States of the United States where use of human remains is similarly prohibited)
      Very easy to skimp over " states of the united states"

      Hence my response

      Still, I don't  believe you have any argument as the fact remans Eddie was trained on eal human corpses

      Was that before or after Madeleine vanished.?   

      And is that fact?   Where did you find that "fact" ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 22, 2015, 10:00:32 AM
      Eddie was trained to find the scent of a dead human, initially using decomposing piglets which smell so similar that VRD's trained in this way can find dead humans. His training was enhanced when he was given the actual scent of a dead human. No cross-training, all his training was aimed at finding dead human beings.

      Eddie was used as a forensic search dog and this is what it says about such dogs -

      Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
       A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


      It says a dog which has NEVER been used to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

      Now I'm sorry but Eddie was trained using pigs,   it may be the closest thing to human tissue but it isn't human tissue.    If being trained on pigs was fine why did Grime go off and train Eddie on human tissue too?   

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 10:21:27 AM
      When fundamental errors are touted as "truth" and repeated often enough, couched in selective wordy, "research," it is obvious what the purpose is............and veracity isn`t necessarily the word for it.

      How about the one in which a response from Keela and Eddie at the same spot definitely rules out any possibility that Eddie could have been alerting to cadaver contaminant ?

      Only last month you were touting that one............( tenacity rather than veracity?)


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 22, 2015, 10:31:33 AM
      Eddie was used as a forensic search dog and this is what it says about such dogs -

      Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
       A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


      It says a dog which has NEVER been used to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

      Now I'm sorry but Eddie was trained using pigs,   it may be the closest thing to human tissue but it isn't human tissue.    If being trained on pigs was fine why did Grime go off and train Eddie on human tissue too?

      The decomposition of pigs (in terms of VOCs and stages) is close to that of humans, but some differences have been found. (I'd have to check which scientific papers state that, it might be Vass.)

      I presume that the purpose of using real cadaver scent on gauze pads was to enhance Eddie's abilities, but - according to Grime - even dogs trained solely on human cadavers will react to "pig-based products".


      Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium. The result from scientific experiment and research to date would tend to support the theory that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

      (Grime report)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 10:33:44 AM
      The decomposition of pigs (in terms of VOCs and stages) is close to that of humans, but some differences have been found. (I'd have to check which scientific papers state that, it might be Vass.)

      I presume that the purpose of using real cadaver scent on gauze pads was to enhance Eddie's abilities, but - according to Grime - even dogs trained solely on human cadavers will react to "pig-based products".


      Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium. The result from scientific experiment and research to date would tend to support the theory that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

      (Grime report)

      So I presume there is evidence of pig 'material'  in all the dog alerts in PDL ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 10:35:19 AM
      you really have no idea at all.

      Odd that this personal comment remains but my reply was deleted.

      The idea that double standards regarding the criticism levelled at those who have been "asking questions " of the McCanns for 8 years by those same posters who target MG on a daily basis similarly is relevant in principle and worth mentioning.

      Quoting numbers on various sites as a tit-for-tat excuse doesn`t really alter the principle.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 22, 2015, 10:39:46 AM
      Eddie was used as a forensic search dog and this is what it says about such dogs -

      Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
       A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.


      It says a dog which has NEVER been used to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue.

      Now I'm sorry but Eddie was trained using pigs,   it may be the closest thing to human tissue but it isn't human tissue.    If being trained on pigs was fine why did Grime go off and train Eddie on human tissue too?

      That issue applies to any cadaver / VRD dogs trained with a substitute for actual human remains (whether pig or pseudo scent). I have no idea whether the idea of using real scent on pads is now used as a regular training tool or not. It seems to have been a fairly new idea at the time.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 22, 2015, 10:46:41 AM
      So I presume there is evidence of pig 'material'  in all the dog alerts in PDL ?

      That's not what I said, Stephen.

      Decomposing human remains and body fluids do not necessarily mean that the person is dead.

      In the UK, ethics dictate that it's not acceptable to use human corpses for dog training. I'm not quite sure why not if someone has donated their body to science, but anyway.

      What's not clear is whether, in addition to human blood, they are allowed to use, e.g., extracted human teeth or not.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 22, 2015, 11:01:29 AM
      On attempting to identify VOCs in "decomposed human tissue":


      Hoffman et al. [8] attempted to identify the VOCs in
      samples of various types of decomposed human tissues,
      including blood, blood clot, placenta, muscle, testicle, skin,
      body fat, adipocere, and bone.

      http://pawsoflife-org.k9handleracademy.com/Library/HRD/DeGreeff_2011.pdf

      With what I presume to be an exception in the case of adipocere, the others don't necessarily imply that the subject died.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 11:25:51 AM
      The decomposition of pigs (in terms of VOCs and stages) is close to that of humans, but some differences have been found. (I'd have to check which scientific papers state that, it might be Vass.)

      I presume that the purpose of using real cadaver scent on gauze pads was to enhance Eddie's abilities, but - according to Grime - even dogs trained solely on human cadavers will react to "pig-based products".


      Acting in my role of advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced pig based products into training assessments 100%! of the animals alerted to the medium. The result from scientific experiment and research to date would tend to support the theory that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two.

      (Grime report)

      I've read that on numerous occasions, Carana, and only now have I noticed that the dogs had never been exposed to pig in their training "These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources." yet they alerted to pig.

      Mr Grime would I imagine have introduced the scent of pig as part of the dogs' assessment on whether or not they reacted to scent from decomposing animal sources ... I can think of no other reason for introducing pig scent to dogs trained solely on human sources.

      Because these were training or assessment exercises the substances causing the dogs' observed response were known. 

      If a dog alerts and there is nothing there to signify what caused it to alert and going on the discussion of other man made possible sources Misty and Anna have brought to the thread I think it brings the whole acceptance of these alerts into question.

      For example ... Mr Grime describes situations when without exception (100%) dogs trained solely on human sources alerted to pig; courts in America are slowly allowing the introduction of 'cadaver scent' based on the training record of dogs like Morse who are trained using only human material and their total lack of interest in animal remains.
      Wonder if the Defence know that the lack of reaction to animals does not include the porcine species or even those with feathers?


      **Snip
      Pig VOC signatures were not found to be a subset of human; in addition to sharing only seven of thirty human-specific compounds, an additional nine unique VOCs were recorded from pig samples which were not present in human samples. The VOC signatures from chicken and human samples were most similar sharing the most compounds of the animals studied.
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22424672
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 22, 2015, 11:36:12 AM
      How can you train a dog on pig then take it to America and more or less say 'forget about the scent of pig that I trained you to detect now it's human bodies'    they may be 99% similar but there is still the 1 % that they are not the same.    No alert by Eddie in the bedroom can be used as evidence as it is not know what he was smelling,  he wasn't bothered at all,   Grime had to call him back numerous.   times if it wasn't for the fact that the bedroom was a known place that Madeleine had been then I doubt if Grime would have called him back.   In my opinion,  Eddie finally alerted because either he wanted to end the exercise or he smelt something that was in his training for eg. blood residue scent or maybe scent from the garden that someone had walked in,   they use pig bone in fertiliser don't they?

      The alerts to cuddle cat and the clothes wouldn't be used as evidence either as dogs are trained not to pick up evidence,   Eddie picked up Cuddle Cat and he picked up the clothes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 22, 2015, 11:48:30 AM
      I've read that on numerous occasions, Carana, and only now have I noticed that the dogs had never been exposed to pig in their training "These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources." yet they alerted to pig.

      Mr Grime would I imagine have introduced the scent of pig as part of the dogs' assessment on whether or not they reacted to scent from decomposing animal sources ... I can think of no other reason for introducing pig scent to dogs trained solely on human sources.

      Because these were training or assessment exercises the substances causing the dogs' observed response were known. 

      If a dog alerts and there is nothing there to signify what caused it to alert and going on the discussion of other man made possible sources Misty and Anna have brought to the thread I think it brings the whole acceptance of these alerts into question.

      For example ... Mr Grime describes situations when without exception (100%) dogs trained solely on human sources alerted to pig; courts in America are slowly allowing the introduction of 'cadaver scent' based on the training record of dogs like Morse who are trained using only human material and their total lack of interest in animal remains.
      Wonder if the Defence know that the lack of reaction to animals does not include the porcine species or even those with feathers?


      **Snip
      Pig VOC signatures were not found to be a subset of human; in addition to sharing only seven of thirty human-specific compounds, an additional nine unique VOCs were recorded from pig samples which were not present in human samples. The VOC signatures from chicken and human samples were most similar sharing the most compounds of the animals studied.
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22424672


      I came across something similar concerning chickens very recently... possibly yesterday. It might have been from a handler saying that decomposing chicken smells more like human decomp than that of pigs. I don't think I noted it as at the time it seemed to be just an opinion.

      I HAD found a scientific study comparing various animal VOCs with those of humans, but I've never been able to find it again, although I did hunt extensively for it. It may have been taken off the Internet for copyright reasons as some likely links that I'd bookmarked to find it again sent me to "page not available".
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 11:51:33 AM
      How can you train a dog on pig then take it to America and more or less say 'forget about the scent of pig that I trained you to detect now it's human bodies'    they may be 99% similar but there is still the 1 % that they are not the same.    No alert by Eddie in the bedroom can be used as evidence as it is not know what he was smelling,  he wasn't bothered at all,   Grime had to call him back numerous.   times if it wasn't for the fact that the bedroom was a known place that Madeleine had been then I doubt if Grime would have called him back.   In my opinion,  Eddie finally alerted because either he wanted to end the exercise or he smelt something that was in his training for eg. blood residue scent or maybe scent from the garden that someone had walked in,   they use pig bone in fertiliser don't they?

      The alerts to cuddle cat and the clothes wouldn't be used as evidence either as dogs are trained not to pick up evidence,   Eddie picked up Cuddle Cat and he picked up the clothes.

      Training materials for dogs include earth from a body deposition site; I don't think there is any doubt that Eddie would be highly likely to alert to earth which had been enriched with fertiliser which includes pig extracts.

      Particularly since he was trained using pig and there is proof from Mr Grime's report that even dogs trained only on human remains had alerted 100% to pig.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 11:55:37 AM
      Yet again.

      If the mccanns have nothing to fear about the dog alerts, why all the bother on this thread ?

      It won't change minds.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 22, 2015, 12:12:03 PM
      Yet again.

      If the mccanns have nothing to fear about the dog alerts, why all the bother on this thread ?

      It won't change minds.

      Nor what is written in the Archiving Report.
      Maybe some posters have aspirations to doing PhD's in organic chemistry?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 12:27:06 PM
      Yet again.

      If the mccanns have nothing to fear about the dog alerts, why all the bother on this thread ?

      It won't change minds.

      yet again...your logic is flawed
      the mccanns have nothing at all to be concerned about re the alerts...they are worthless and the mccanns must know that

      no one is trying to change anyone's mind...we are simply having a discussion
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 12:28:10 PM
      Training materials for dogs include earth from a body deposition site; I don't think there is any doubt that Eddie would be highly likely to alert to earth which had been enriched with fertiliser which includes pig extracts.

      Particularly since he was trained using pig and there is proof from Mr Grime's report that even dogs trained only on human remains had alerted 100% to pig.

      "You don`t think there is any doubt that Eddie would be highly likely"...... etc.

      Sounding very authoritive.

      Is this to tie in with Lace`s post yesterday opining that Eddie`s alert to the garden could link with the alerts in the apartment due to people possibly treading the scent from decaying vegetation/compost etc., in on their footwear?

      Another idea to bear in mind, but to couch it in terms such as you used is really no better than the assertions that an alert by Eddie must mean that a body lay in 5A, which you so deplore, is it ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 12:28:54 PM
      Nor what is written in the Archiving Report.
      Maybe some posters have aspirations to doing PhD's in organic chemistry?

      the archiving report is supportive of the mccanns innocence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 12:32:51 PM

      I came across something similar concerning chickens very recently... possibly yesterday. It might have been from a handler saying that decomposing chicken smells more like human decomp than that of pigs. I don't think I noted it as at the time it seemed to be just an opinion.

      I HAD found a scientific study comparing various animal VOCs with those of humans, but I've never been able to find it again, although I did hunt extensively for it. It may have been taken off the Internet for copyright reasons as some likely links that I'd bookmarked to find it again sent me to "page not available".

      I had that problem with some that I bookmarked some time ago ... I got into some by clicking on a link in the page not found notification.

      I've read a lot about it as there are quite a few papers out there ... some of it way above my head.

      The ones I have read about pig/chicken VOC seem to be concentrated more towards farming and the attendant pollution from the smells generated by the livestock.

      What I am noticing is that those working in the field seem to still think pig scent and similarity of decomposition is the closest to human despite scientific studies saying there are more matching VOC in chickens.
      I think these are the guys likely to know what they are talking about.


      Mary Cabik seems to be an authority on the subject as she is quoted everywhere; the work is copyright protected, it seems that includes the abstract so I'm not sure if it will be allowed to stay on the forum for long.

      Abstract:
      Forensic Sci Int. 2012 Jul 10;220(1-3):118-25. doi: 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.02.007. Epub 2012 Mar 15.
      Characterization of the volatile organic compounds present in the headspace of decomposing animal remains, and compared with human remains.
      Cablk ME1, Szelagowski EE, Sagebiel JC.
      Author information
      1Desert Research Institute, 2215 Raggio Parkway, Reno, NV 89512, USA. mary.cablk@dri.edu
      Abstract
      Human Remains Detection (HRD) dogs can be a useful tool to locate buried human remains because they rely on olfactory rather than visual cues. Trained specifically to locate deceased humans, it is widely believed that HRD dogs can differentiate animal remains from human remains. This study analyzed the volatile organic compounds (VOCs) present in the headspace above partially decomposed animal tissue samples and directly compared them with results published from human tissues using established solid-phase microextraction (SPME) and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC/MS) methods. Volatile organic compounds present in the headspace of four different animal tissue samples (bone, muscle, fat and skin) from each of cow, pig and chicken were identified and compared to published results from human samples. Although there were compounds common to both animal and human remains, the VOC signatures of each of the animal remains differed from those of humans. Of particular interest was the difference between pigs and humans, because in some countries HRD dogs are trained on pig remains rather than human remains. Pig VOC signatures were not found to be a subset of human; in addition to sharing only seven of thirty human-specific compounds, an additional nine unique VOCs were recorded from pig samples which were not present in human samples. The VOC signatures from chicken and human samples were most similar sharing the most compounds of the animals studied. Identifying VOCs that are unique to humans may be useful to develop human-specific training aids for HRD canines, and may eventually lead to an instrument that can detect clandestine human burial sites.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22424672



      Pig and human
      https://ir.library.dc-uoit.ca/bitstream/10155/315/1/Stadler_Sonja.pdf




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 12:36:59 PM
      Yet again.

      If the mccanns have nothing to fear about the dog alerts, why all the bother on this thread ?

      It won't change minds.

      You really should accept the reality of the situation which has been so succinctly explained by Mr Grime.  There are some minds which unfortunately are incapable of being changed whatever the evidence ... the only danger they seem to represent to society is that they are probably eligible for jury duty.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 12:47:46 PM
      "You don`t think there is any doubt that Eddie would be highly likely"...... etc.

      Sounding very authoritive.

      Is this to tie in with Lace`s post yesterday opining that Eddie`s alert to the garden could link with the alerts in the apartment due to people possibly treading the scent from decaying vegetation/compost etc., in on their footwear?

      Another idea to bear in mind, but to couch it in terms such as you used is really no better than the assertions that an alert by Eddie must mean that a body lay in 5A, which you so deplore, is it ?

      Thank you for thinking I sound authoritative when in fact my post contains many caveats.

      The clear fact arising from Eddie's alerts in the apartment are they mean absolutely nothing

      No one - not even his handler knows what Eddie may have been reacting to - for the simple reason nothing was found which could be tested forensically to say exactly what that may have been.
       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 12:52:34 PM
      You really should accept the reality of the situation which has been so succinctly explained by Mr Grime.  There are some minds which unfortunately are incapable of being changed whatever the evidence ... the only danger they seem to represent to society is that they are probably eligible for jury duty.

      The dogs were trained to respond to a specific range of compounds.

      They indicated in several locations.

      The clear metaphorical blindness is shared by you and others.

       That is why you continue to cut and paste articles again and again.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 12:54:36 PM
      The dogs were trained to respond to a specific range of compounds.

      They indicated in several locations.

      The clear metaphorical blindness is shared by you and others.

       That is why you continue to cut and paste articles again and again.

      listen to what Grime says....no evidential reliability...fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 22, 2015, 12:58:20 PM
      listen to what Grime says....no evidential reliability...fact

      I (genuinely) think it's a good thing to listen selectively to Grime ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 12:58:50 PM
       In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.

      this is also what Grime says...no confirmation of cadaver scent according to Grime
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 01:03:10 PM
      In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.

      this is also what Grime says...no confirmation of cadaver scent according to Grime

      Neither did he dismiss it either.

      and it wasn't his job to either.

      That's the job of the forensic scientists, and just to remind everyone, inconclusive means what it says.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 01:03:23 PM
      Thank you for thinking I sound authoritative when in fact my post contains many caveats.

      The clear fact arising from Eddie's alerts in the apartment are they mean absolutely nothing

      No one - not even his handler knows what Eddie may have been reacting to - for the simple reason nothing was found which could be tested forensically to say exactly what that may have been.


      Which means that your pig fertiliser possibility is no more likely a source for the alerts than the cadaver of the missing person.

      The "discussions" and derogatory comments are intended to give that impression, though aren`t they?



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 01:06:28 PM

      Which means that your pig fertiliser possibility is no more likely a source for the alerts than the cadaver of the missing person.

      The "discussions" and derogatory comments are intended to give that impression, though aren`t they?

      It's pure desperation.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 01:07:42 PM
      Neither did he dismiss it either.

      and it wasn't his job to either.

      That's the job of the forensic scientists, and just to remind everyone, inconclusive means what it says.

      so what evidence did the dogs find..absolutely nothing
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 01:09:10 PM
      Neither did he dismiss it either.

      and it wasn't his job to either.

      That's the job of the forensic scientists, and just to remind everyone, inconclusive means what it says.

      so the alerts tell us nothing either way..thank you...absolutely useless
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on August 22, 2015, 01:09:21 PM
      I (genuinely) think it's a good thing to listen selectively to Grime ....

      Shouldn't that be read selectively?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 01:11:25 PM
      so the alerts tell us nothing either way..thank you...absolutely useless

      If they are so useless, why do you keep commenting, as do others of your ilk ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on August 22, 2015, 01:15:33 PM
      There can be no doubt that Mr Grime knew the targets before sending in the dogs.  He knew which apartment the McCanns had occupied with Madeleine prior to her disappearance, he knew which car was rented by them and he knew it was their clothing which was laid out on the gym floor.  For me the entire exercise was a fiasco and yet another waste of money.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 01:24:43 PM


      They constitute circumstantial evidence.

      and if a body is ever found, quite crucial.

      Redwood himself stated Madeleine could have died in the apartment.

      Similar dogs were used by SY in Portugal last year and searched in specific locations with no results.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 01:31:23 PM
      There can be no doubt that Mr Grime knew the targets before sending in the dogs.  He knew which apartment the McCanns had occupied with Madeleine prior to her disappearance, he knew which car was rented by them and he knew it was their clothing which was laid out on the gym floor.  For me the entire exercise was a fiasco and yet another waste of money.

      Wouldn`t it be quite usual in potential crime scene investigations for the premises , vehicles and gardens to be  those associated with the missing person and known to be so?

      I mean.........how else would they operate?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 01:32:56 PM
      They constitute circumstantial evidence.

      and if a body is ever found, quite crucial.

      Redwood himself stated Madeleine could have died in the apartment.

      Similar dogs were used by SY in Portugal last year and searched in specific locations with no results.

      No evidential reliability
      The alerts have zero value
      If a body is found how will that change
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 01:34:30 PM
      No evidential reliability
      The alerts have zero value
      If a body is found how will that change

      The alerts come down to basic probability.

      The dogs are trained to respond to a group of compounds.

      They did so.

      Did the dogs used last year give any indications ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 01:39:31 PM
      Yes, I found it, Pegasus. So what are you saying?
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/V/08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2192_a.jpg
      ETA image
      Yes that photo shows that the 1st Aug forensic team moved the sofa away from wall and looked behind it.
      But the GNR on 3rd May, the PJ early 4th May, and the forensic team early 4th May, IMO none of them moved the sofa away from wall to look behind it.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 01:46:46 PM
      The alerts come down to basic probability.

      The dogs are trained to respond to a group of compounds.

      They did so.

      Did the dogs used last year give any indications ?

      you make the same basic mistake as others of your ilk...
      no one knows what the dogs alerted to...Grime doesn't know

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 01:53:52 PM
      you make the same basic mistake as others of your ilk...
      no one knows what the dogs alerted to...Grime doesn't know

      Wrong again dave.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 22, 2015, 01:55:07 PM
      the archiving report is supportive of the mccanns innocence

      The law does not determine innocence. It deals in guilty or not guilty in its own eyes. Or in the case of the archiving report insufficient evidence to bring a case which is not the same as saying innocent.
      But then I was referring to the detail of forensics and doggies in the Archiving Report which cannot be changed by either side and it does not say what either side says it does. Tune in in another 300 pages of cut and paste and repetition.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 01:58:24 PM
      Odd that this personal comment remains but my reply was deleted.

      The idea that double standards regarding the criticism levelled at those who have been "asking questions " of the McCanns for 8 years by those same posters who target MG on a daily basis similarly is relevant in principle and worth mentioning.

      Quoting numbers on various sites as a tit-for-tat excuse doesn`t really alter the principle.
      If you wish to pursue this argument then I'm only to glad to do so on an appropriate thread.  Perhaps you could start one off...?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 02:15:48 PM
      If you wish to pursue this argument then I'm only to glad to do so on an appropriate thread.  Perhaps you could start one off...?

      I had made my point already to which you replied,  "you really have no idea at all. "

      My reply was removed,  so I made it again.

      Your rudeness had survived intact, otherwise I wouldn`t have bothered.








      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 02:21:57 PM
      The law does not determine innocence. It deals in guilty or not guilty in its own eyes. Or in the case of the archiving report insufficient evidence to bring a case which is not the same as saying innocent.
      But then I was referring to the detail of forensics and doggies in the Archiving Report which cannot be changed by either side and it does not say what either side says it does. Tune in in another 300 pages of cut and paste and repetition.



      I never used the word determine.... I said the report supports their innocence
      The report does not use the term insufficient... Another mistake

      The report criticises the evidence that was used against the mccanns
      I think it's fair comment to say the report supports their innocence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 02:24:02 PM
      Wrong again dave.

      Grime has stated that the alerts cannot be affirmed without forensic confirmation
      You are ignoring the truth
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 22, 2015, 02:33:42 PM
      If they are so useless, why do you keep commenting, as do others of your ilk ?

      Eh,  Stephen the heading of this thread is 'Amaral and the dogs'   so commenting on the dogs is part of the discussion on this thread wakey wakey.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 22, 2015, 02:36:15 PM
      The dogs were trained to respond to a specific range of compounds.

      They indicated in several locations.

      The clear metaphorical blindness is shared by you and others.

       That is why you continue to cut and paste articles again and again.

      Quote -   'the dogs were trained to respond to a specific range of compounds'

      Yes,   and Eddie was trained with pig carcass's they use pig in garden fertiliser  he could very well have alerted to the smell of that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 22, 2015, 02:37:11 PM
      Grime has stated that the alerts cannot be affirmed without forensic confirmation
      You are ignoring the truth

      Exactly so in other words,   Eddie might be alerting to something other than cadaver scent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 22, 2015, 02:38:39 PM
      Grime has stated that the alerts cannot be affirmed without forensic confirmation
      You are ignoring the truth

      Exactly,   that about covers everything.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 02:50:08 PM
      Quote -   'the dogs were trained to respond to a specific range of compounds'

      Yes,   and Eddie was trained with pig carcass's they use pig in garden fertiliser  he could very well have alerted to the smell of that.
      What about horses?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 02:53:38 PM
      I had made my point already to which you replied,  "you really have no idea at all. "

      My reply was removed,  so I made it again.

      Your rudeness had survived intact, otherwise I wouldn`t have bothered.
      You really have no idea at all.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 22, 2015, 03:01:52 PM
      What about horses?

      Horses?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 03:35:34 PM
      Horses?

      Horse manure, maybe?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 03:46:55 PM
      The dogs were trained to respond to a specific range of compounds.

      They indicated in several locations.

      The clear metaphorical blindness is shared by you and others.

       That is why you continue to cut and paste articles again and again.

      I cut and paste different articles to substantiate my posts by providing a cite ... I thoroughly recommend it to you.
      It may be worth noting that on the few occasions I do not post a cite ... I am invariably asked to provide one.

      You claim to be a scientist and an educationalist which makes it all the more surprising that you display such resistance to accepting the pace of scientific research leading to advancements in our knowledge of precisely what compounds of decay Victim Recovery Dogs may be reacting to.

      Mr Grime knew the legal situation regarding the need to establish corroboration of Eddie's alerts; he took pains to lay them out precisely in his statements which are recorded in the files.

      I would have assumed that one of a scientific bent like yourself, particularly a chemist, might have taken that in conjunction with scientific studies and worked things out for yourself as to the irrelevance of Eddie's alerts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 03:54:42 PM
      Horses?
      Sorry I withdraw that. I thought I found a video of Eddie locating 100 year old horse remains. But I have listened again and I had misheard pelvic cavity of a "horse" when it wasn't "horse" at all
      Anyway the video is interesting because it confirms Eddie's reward was a tennis ball (not a cuddly toy).
      http://youtu.be/NmdkR1K-jU0?t=2m8s
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 03:55:11 PM

      Which means that your pig fertiliser possibility is no more likely a source for the alerts than the cadaver of the missing person.

      The "discussions" and derogatory comments are intended to give that impression, though aren`t they?

      I find it mystifying that people remain adamant that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment without the existence of even a modicum of evidence in support.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 03:55:23 PM
      I cut and paste different articles to substantiate my posts by providing a cite ... I thoroughly recommend it to you.
      It may be worth noting that on the few occasions I do not post a cite ... I am invariably asked to provide one.

      You claim to be a scientist and an educationalist which makes it all the more surprising that you display such resistance to accepting the pace of scientific research leading to advancements in our knowledge of precisely what compounds of decay Victim Recovery Dogs may be reacting to.

      Mr Grime knew the legal situation regarding the need to establish corroboration of Eddie's alerts; he took pains to lay them out precisely in his statements which are recorded in the files.

      I would have assumed that one of a scientific bent like yourself, particularly a chemist, might have taken that in conjunction with scientific studies and worked things out for yourself as to the irrelevance of Eddie's alerts.

      Your posts don't reflect scientific belief or logic.

      They merely reflect cutting and pasting of anything which you believe gives doubt to the indications of the dogs.

      I have stated numerous times that the forensic analysis of the collected samples was inconclusive, but what the dogs indicated can be viewed in terms of sheer probability.

      There is nothing else in this case which has come to light, no matter yours and others protestations.

      That is why you and your fellow brethren continue on this thread, and for that read Newton's Third Law.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 03:56:28 PM
      I find it mystifying that people remain adamant that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment without the existence of even a modicum of evidence in support.

      Tell that to Redwood.

      He admitted as such.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 04:01:12 PM
      There can be no doubt that Mr Grime knew the targets before sending in the dogs.  He knew which apartment the McCanns had occupied with Madeleine prior to her disappearance, he knew which car was rented by them and he knew it was their clothing which was laid out on the gym floor.  For me the entire exercise was a fiasco and yet another waste of money.

      I think that is a perfect scenario for clever Hans to come into effect ... I think close observation of the videos would tend to reinforce that opinion.

      I think the dogs were brought in far too late to be of any value to the investigation.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 04:06:00 PM
      I think that is a perfect scenario for clever Hans to come into effect ... I think close observation of the videos would tend to reinforce that opinion.

      I think the dogs were brought in far too late to be of any value to the investigation.

      Are you willing to admit the possibility that the dogs indicated the presence of a dead body in the apartment ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 04:08:33 PM
      Tell that to Redwood.

      He admitted as such.

      Redwood said Maddie MAY have died in the apartment ....not DID.....
      You regularly confuse the two
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 04:16:30 PM
      Your posts don't reflect scientific belief or logic.

      They merely reflect cutting and pasting of anything which you believe gives doubt to the indications of the dogs.

      I have stated numerous times that the forensic analysis of the collected samples was inconclusive, but what the dogs indicated can be viewed in terms of sheer probability.

      There is nothing else in this case which has come to light, no matter yours and others protestations.

      That is why you and your fellow brethren continue on this thread, and for that read Newton's Third Law.

      Interesting that you rely on the mumbo jumbo of "sheer probability" just as Mr Amaral did in conjunction with Ricardo's Delphic dream to make a case against the Drs McCann.
      That is rather on a par with tasking Derek Acorah to unravel the case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 04:19:47 PM
      Redwood said Maddie MAY have died in the apartment ....not DID.....
      You regularly confuse the two

      No I don't.

      I know what he said.

      She might be alive, she might be dead.

      An amazing observation you will agree.

      So where does that place Redwood as regards dogs ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 04:21:45 PM
      IMO the alerts by Eddie and Keela behind sofa could be as easy as a cut on the hand of a tiler when the apartment was built. But back to that night. If any of these people - non-police before GNR arrived, or GNR, or PJ - did pull the sofa away from the wall to look that night, why would they push it back against the wall again? That would be a pointless waste of time, to push it back against the wall. Therefore IMO none of those people pulled the sofa out and looked behind it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 04:24:49 PM
      No I don't.

      I know what he said.

      She might be alive, she might be dead.

      An amazing observation you will agree.

      So where does that place Redwood as regards dogs ?

      It shows redwood believes the dogs do not tell us if maddie died in the apartment or not
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 04:25:48 PM
      I`m nominating you for mod !.......rudeness, now goading & showing off/ playing to the gallery

      ............ all with Eleanor , John & Angelo watching.

      Dream Team.  8)-)))
      How rude.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 04:25:57 PM
      Are you willing to admit the possibility that the dogs indicated the presence of a dead body in the apartment ?

      Show me the supporting evidence that the dogs indicated to a dead body in the apartment.

      Explain why there were no alerts in the other apartments in the complex where the McCann family resided in the days after Madeleine's disappearance bearing in mind cadaver scent contaminant.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 04:29:05 PM
      Interesting that you rely on the mumbo jumbo of "sheer probability" just as Mr Amaral did in conjunction with Ricardo's Delphic dream to make a case against the Drs McCann.
      That is rather on a par with tasking Derek Acorah to unravel the case.

      'Mumbo jumbo'  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      You really betray your ignorance as regards that subject.

      This mumbo jumbo as you call it governs many aspects of our lives.

      e.g. Do you know what an Actuarist does ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 04:31:23 PM
      Show me the supporting evidence that the dogs indicated to a dead body in the apartment.

      Explain why there were no alerts in the other apartments in the complex where the McCann family resided in the days after Madeleine's disappearance bearing in mind cadaver scent contaminant.

      Oh dear, exactly the answer I was expecting.

      Talk about highly probable events. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      Did those same dogs alert in any other place other than where the mccanns had been ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 04:35:20 PM
      Show me the supporting evidence that the dogs indicated to a dead body in the apartment.

      Explain why there were no alerts in the other apartments in the complex where the McCann family resided in the days after Madeleine's disappearance bearing in mind cadaver scent contaminant.
      Here is the difference. The relevant clothing and possesions were not present in 4G when Eddie checked there, but were present in villa when Eddie checked there. BTW Eddie did not check the other apartment allocated in block 4 (remember the meals were delivered to two apartments in that block).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 04:40:12 PM
      'Mumbo jumbo'  @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      You really betray your ignorance as regards that subject.

      This mumbo jumbo as you call it governs many aspects of our lives.

      e.g. Do you know what an Actuarist does ?

      Good try at deflection ... however you cannot minimise Mr Amaral's ignorance and / or total misunderstanding of the significance of the dogs in his eagerness to wrap up any sort of case against the Drs McCann.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 04:44:26 PM
      Good try at deflection ... however you cannot minimise Mr Amaral's ignorance and / or total misunderstanding of the significance of the dogs in his eagerness to wrap up any sort of case against the Drs McCann.

      Yours is the deflection.

      You clearly don't understand the laws of probability and how widely they are applied in everyday life.

      You comment on Amaral's ignorance, but you are clearly unaware of your own.

      P.S. If you had bothered to read some of my previous posts I did state Amaral made mistakes.


      Mumbo jumbo..... Now those two words  so well sum up many mccann supporter posts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 04:51:34 PM
      Yours is the deflection.

      You clearly don't understand the laws of probability and how widely they are applied in everyday life.

      You comment onAmaral'l ignorance, but you are clearly unaware of your own.


      Mumbo jumbo..... Now those two words  so well sum up many mccann supporter posts.
      Tell us about the laws of probability and how they apply to the dog alerts then, for us ignorami.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 04:53:14 PM
      Tell us about the laws of probability and how they apply to the dog alerts then, for us ignorami.

      I gave a link to a research article last week as regards that.

      Did you pay it any notice ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 04:54:07 PM
      I find it mystifying that people remain adamant that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment without the existence of even a modicum of evidence in support.



      Well, I imagine you must be mystified quite often then, if you managed to conclude that from what was typed!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 04:56:29 PM
      I gave a link to a research article last week as regards that.

      Did you pay it any notice ?
      No.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 05:15:13 PM
      Sorry I withdraw that. I thought I found a video of Eddie locating 100 year old horse remains. But I have listened again and I had misheard pelvic cavity of a "horse" when it wasn't "horse" at all
      Anyway the video is interesting because it confirms Eddie's reward was a tennis ball (not a cuddly toy).
      http://youtu.be/NmdkR1K-jU0?t=2m8s

      Thankyou for clarifying.

      I thought maybe you had added horses as a possible alert trigger in some way......in relation to the pig based fertiliser discussion.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 05:21:50 PM
      I think that is a perfect scenario for clever Hans to come into effect ... I think close observation of the videos would tend to reinforce that opinion.

      I think the dogs were brought in far too late to be of any value to the investigation.

      At typical potential crime scenes then ; does the handler usually have no idea which house, or place last seen alive, or vehicles, garages, or clothing are associated with the missing person when the investigation takes place?

      How would that be managed ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 05:22:52 PM
      How rude.

      ? No such thing here apparently.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 22, 2015, 05:30:08 PM
      I never used the word determine.... I said the report supports their innocence
      The report does not use the term insufficient... Another mistake

      The report criticises the evidence that was used against the mccanns
      I think it's fair comment to say the report supports their innocence

      I did not say the report used the word insufficient.
      Post a link to the Archiving Report then we can all read what it says not what posters say it says.
      How does the report support their innocence?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 05:57:08 PM
      Thankyou for clarifying.

      I thought maybe you had added horses as a possible alert trigger in some way......in relation to the pig based fertiliser discussion.
      neigh, neigh and thrice neigh.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 05:59:39 PM
      At typical potential crime scenes then ; does the handler usually have no idea which house, or place last seen alive, or vehicles, garages, or clothing are associated with the missing person when the investigation takes place?

      How would that be managed ?
      He usually does, which is why you have situations like the one in Sweden when the handler was taken to the site of alleged murders by a supposed serial killer, and the dog alerted dozens of times, only for it later to be revealed that the site was NOT the place of murder at all.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 06:07:15 PM
      I did not say the report used the word insufficient.
      Post a link to the Archiving Report then we can all read what it says not what posters say it says.
      How does the report support their innocence

      It certainly doesn't mention insufficient evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 22, 2015, 06:12:40 PM
      Thankyou for clarifying.

      I thought maybe you had added horses as a possible alert trigger in some way......in relation to the pig based fertiliser discussion.
      No I just misheard a word as "horse" (the doctor has recommended I get my eeyores hinged).
      But it is a good video anyway http://youtu.be/NmdkR1K-jU0?t=2m8s
      100-year-old human (not horse) dust easily located by Eddie.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 06:18:21 PM


      Well, I imagine you must be mystified quite often then, if you managed to conclude that from what was typed!

      Mystified and saddened ... but just the perils of treading the Madeleine McCann boards where there is such apparent ill wishing towards a missing little girl.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 06:18:51 PM
      He usually does, which is why you have situations like the one in Sweden when the handler was taken to the site of alleged murders by a supposed serial killer, and the dog alerted dozens of times, only for it later to be revealed that the site was NOT the place of murder at all.

      Perhaps there had been another death there previously or pig and coconut based fertiliser contaminants were present along with decaying vegetation tracked in on the dog`s paws.

      With so many possible contaminants, "Careful Hans" need never be involved anywhere.......ever.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 22, 2015, 06:19:41 PM
      I did not say the report used the word insufficient.
      Post a link to the Archiving Report then we can all read what it says not what posters say it says.
      How does the report support their innocence?

      Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

      The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.

      To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated.[/u] If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.

      Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 06:24:06 PM
      Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

      The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.

      To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated.[/u] If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.

      Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.


      absolutely nothing about insufficient evidence...seems alice made that up...and very plainly supportive of the McCanns innocence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 06:25:53 PM
      At typical potential crime scenes then ; does the handler usually have no idea which house, or place last seen alive, or vehicles, garages, or clothing are associated with the missing person when the investigation takes place?

      How would that be managed ?

      We don't actually know a great deal about the exact manner in which handlers deploy victim recovery dogs professionalism prevents them discussing active cases and in my opinion the handlers who do go into print on the subject are sensitive about those who may be affected by their revelations and do not go into specifics but generalise to avoid identifying the victim.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 06:28:47 PM
      Perhaps there had been another death there previously or pig and coconut based fertiliser contaminants were present along with decaying vegetation tracked in on the dog`s paws.

      With so many possible contaminants, "Careful Hans" need never be involved anywhere.......ever.
      Your facetiousness is noted and dismissed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 06:31:20 PM
      Mystified and saddened ... but just the perils of treading the Madeleine McCann boards where there is such apparent ill wishing towards a missing little girl.

      Perhaps relating your reply to the actual content of the post might help rather than what you imagine it said.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 06:34:46 PM
      Your facetiousness is noted and dismissed.

      All have been mentioned here as possible sources of contaminants at sites.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 22, 2015, 06:47:23 PM
      Concerning the other indicated crimes, they are no more than that and despite our perception that, due to its high degree of probability, the occurrence of a homicide cannot be discarded, such cannot be more than a mere supposition, due to the lack of sustaining elements in the files.

      The non involvement of the arguidos parents of Madeleine in any penally relevant action seems to result from the objective circumstances of them not being inside the apartment when she disappeared, from the normal behaviour that they adopted until said disappearance and afterwards, as can be amply concluded from the witness statements, from the telephone communications analysis and also from the forensics' conclusions, namely the Reports from the FSS and from the National Institute for Legal Medicine.

      To this can be added that, in reality, none of the indications that led to their constitution as arguidos was later confirmed or consolidated.[/u] If not, let us see: the information concerning a previous alert of the media before the polices was not confirmed, the traces that were marked by the dogs were not ratified in laboratory, and the initial indications from the above transcribed email, better clarified at a later date, ended up being revealed as innocuous.

      Even if, hypothetically, one could admit that Gerald and Kate McCann might be responsible over the child's death, it would still have to be explained how, where through, when, with what means, with the help of whom and where to they freed themselves of her body within the restricted time frame that would have been available to them to do so. Their daily routine, until the 3rd of May, had been circumscribed to the narrow borders of the 'Ocean Club' resort and to the beach that lies next to it, unknowing the surrounding terrain and, apart from the English friends that were with them on holiday there, they had no known friends or contacts in Portugal.


      OK then Ferryman you can be the third supporter I have asked to post a link to the archiving report so we can read it all rather than the cut and paste bits.
      The last two supporters I asked ignored the request and/or bottled out. Are you going to make it a prile?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 22, 2015, 06:51:18 PM
      We know that the UK dogs are trained on decomposing piglets. Presumably, the scent of adult pigs differs somewhat to that of humans. Does anyone know if the cadaver scent of a baby/young child differs to that of an adult? Are cadaver dogs in the US trained with decomposing remains from humans of various ages?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 06:58:04 PM
      All have been mentioned here as possible sources of contaminants at sites.
      So?  Your response to my last point was facetious was it not?  Or were you actually being sincere?  Ho ho.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 07:00:19 PM
      Perhaps relating your reply to the actual content of the post might help rather than what you imagine it said.

                                                                    Ditto.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 07:08:32 PM
      OK then Ferryman you can be the third supporter I have asked to post a link to the archiving report so we can read it all rather than the cut and paste bits.
      The last two supporters I asked ignored the request and/or bottled out. Are you going to make it a prile?

      Or couldnt be bothered
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 22, 2015, 07:10:01 PM
      I did not say the report used the word insufficient.
      Post a link to the Archiving Report then we can all read what it says not what posters say it says.
      How does the report support their innocence?

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 07:11:19 PM
      It seems we have another reason for doubting the alerts
      Eddie always makes a positive alert and others are left to debate what it means
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 07:20:13 PM
      It seems we have another reason for doubting the alerts
      Eddie always makes a positive alert and others are left to debate what it means

      You are speaking for a very limited number of people.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 22, 2015, 07:25:14 PM
      You are speaking for a very limited number of people.

      From the quarters of cyberspace you inhabit, probably none ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 07:40:03 PM
                                                                    Ditto.



      Glad you agree.   8(0(*

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 22, 2015, 07:41:49 PM
      You are speaking for a very limited number of people.

      As you do
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 07:45:54 PM
      As you do

      Dream on.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 22, 2015, 08:07:29 PM
      I had that problem with some that I bookmarked some time ago ... I got into some by clicking on a link in the page not found notification.

      I've read a lot about it as there are quite a few papers out there ... some of it way above my head.

      The ones I have read about pig/chicken VOC seem to be concentrated more towards farming and the attendant pollution from the smells generated by the livestock.

      What I am noticing is that those working in the field seem to still think pig scent and similarity of decomposition is the closest to human despite scientific studies saying there are more matching VOC in chickens.
      I think these are the guys likely to know what they are talking about.


      Mary Cabik seems to be an authority on the subject as she is quoted everywhere; the work is copyright protected, it seems that includes the abstract so I'm not sure if it will be allowed to stay on the forum for long.

      Abstract:
      Forensic Sci Int. 2012 Jul 10;220(1-3):118-25. doi: 10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.02.007. Epub 2012 Mar 15.
      Characterization of the volatile organic compounds present in the headspace of decomposing animal remains, and compared with human remains.
      Cablk ME1, Szelagowski EE, Sagebiel JC.
      Author information
      1Desert Research Institute, 2215 Raggio Parkway, Reno, NV 89512, USA. mary.cablk@dri.edu
      Abstract
      Human Remains Detection (HRD) dogs can be a useful tool to locate buried human remains because they rely on olfactory rather than visual cues. Trained specifically to locate deceased humans, it is widely believed that HRD dogs can differentiate animal remains from human remains. This study analyzed the volatile organic compounds (VOCs) present in the headspace above partially decomposed animal tissue samples and directly compared them with results published from human tissues using established solid-phase microextraction (SPME) and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC/MS) methods. Volatile organic compounds present in the headspace of four different animal tissue samples (bone, muscle, fat and skin) from each of cow, pig and chicken were identified and compared to published results from human samples. Although there were compounds common to both animal and human remains, the VOC signatures of each of the animal remains differed from those of humans. Of particular interest was the difference between pigs and humans, because in some countries HRD dogs are trained on pig remains rather than human remains. Pig VOC signatures were not found to be a subset of human; in addition to sharing only seven of thirty human-specific compounds, an additional nine unique VOCs were recorded from pig samples which were not present in human samples. The VOC signatures from chicken and human samples were most similar sharing the most compounds of the animals studied. Identifying VOCs that are unique to humans may be useful to develop human-specific training aids for HRD canines, and may eventually lead to an instrument that can detect clandestine human burial sites.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22424672



      Pig and human
      https://ir.library.dc-uoit.ca/bitstream/10155/315/1/Stadler_Sonja.pdf

      I'm wondering if the Cabik one is what I'd found. It had graphs with waves of various VOCs as they increased and decreased across the various phases. Possibly also according to what type of tissue, but I'm not sure about that now.

      What I've noticed in many of these studies is how vague they are about how soon after death various VOCs can be detected. I've seen "soon after death", "in the fresh stage", and so on. I've also noticed that there are very few VOCs released / detectable in the "fresh" stage (generally 1-3 days). That raises the question of how many would have been present, which they would have been, and how long those initial compounds could remain detectable, particularly on non-porous surfaces if M had indeed died in that apartment.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 22, 2015, 08:51:05 PM
      I'm wondering if the Cabik one is what I'd found. It had graphs with waves of various VOCs as they increased and decreased across the various phases. Possibly also according to what type of tissue, but I'm not sure about that now.

      What I've noticed in many of these studies is how vague they are about how soon after death various VOCs can be detected. I've seen "soon after death", "in the fresh stage", and so on. I've also noticed that there are very few VOCs released / detectable in the "fresh" stage (generally 1-3 days). That raises the question of how many would have been present, which they would have been, and how long those initial compounds could remain detectable, particularly on non-porous surfaces if M had indeed died in that apartment.

      There are various PMI studies being undertaken ... the following author gives access to the full text which I haven't read so no idea if it is relevant to the release of VOCs.

      I have seen the paper, or a similar one, to which you refer so it does exist and I have read something by Cabik et al ... but I just can't find it now.



      Estimation of postmortem interval from hypoxic inducible levels of vascular endothelial growth factor.

      ABSTRACT Estimation of the postmortem interval (PMI) is one of the most important tasks in forensic medicine. Five autopsy organ tissues such as brain, lungs, heart, liver, and kidneys were taken at the time of forensic autopsy from 19 known PMI cases with a range of postmortem intervals ranging from 1 to 120 h (the mean was 25.81 h), and the time-course of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) expression was measured. The human hepatoma-derived Hep 3B cell line was used as a control. The levels of VEGF increased linearly with the PMI up to 20 h in lung (r = 0.95 and in kidney (r = 0.89), and up to 15 h PMI in liver (r = 0.88). The VEGF levels fell after 24 h PMI, and then remained stable. In brain, the levels of VEGF started to increase after 24 h PMI and increased linearly with PMI up to 40 h in brain (r = 0.94) and then begin to fall. In heart, there was no clear correlation between the PMI and VEGF level. Some variations occurred in selected cases, such as the infant and asphyxial deaths. In conclusion, measurement of hypoxia-inducible levels of VEGF in various body organs appears to be a useful method of estimating the PMI up to 24 h in forensic medicine and pathophysiology. This method is also probably applicable in ischaemia in clinical and basic medicine.

      Estimation of postmortem interval from hypoxic inducible levels of vascular endothelial growth factor. (PDF Download Available). Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/11309204_Estimation_of_postmortem_interval_from_hypoxic_inducible_levels_of_vascular_endothelial_growth_factor [accessed Aug 22, 2015].
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 08:54:17 PM
      Do do you even vaguely comprehend the information that you are cutting and pasting. ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 22, 2015, 09:42:54 PM
      From the quarters of cyberspace you inhabit, probably none ....

      Ah diddums.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 10:36:10 PM
      So?  Your response to my last point was facetious was it not?  Or were you actually being sincere?  Ho ho.

      I applied just a few of the many and varied examples of contaminants put forward as possibly alerted to by Eddie to your practical example "in the field," so to speak.

       I didn`t think them up, so it`s hardly my fault if all the "alert triggers," had they happened in practice, came across as facetious.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 10:40:16 PM
      I applied just a few of the many and varied examples of contaminants put forward as possibly alerted to by Eddie to your practical example "in the field," so to speak.

       I didn`t think them up, so it`s hardly my fault if all the "alert triggers," had they happened in practice, came across as facetious.
      You have no contol over whether or not you come across as facetious?  I see...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 22, 2015, 10:58:48 PM
      You have no contol over whether or not you come across as facetious?  I see...

      Slight comprehension malfunction, maybe ?

      ..........all the "alert triggers" , had they happened in practice came across as facetious......(as they obviously did to you.)

      Many of them do to me , too although I think they are meant to be serious



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 22, 2015, 11:16:46 PM
      Slight comprehension malfunction, maybe ?

      ..........all the "alert triggers" , had they happened in practice came across as facetious......(as they obviously did to you.)

      Many of them do to me , too although I think they are meant to be serious
      Only human beings can be facetious, whatever triggers a dog to alert (and we know it can be many things) cannot be facetious, so I think perhaps the comprehension malfunction is yours.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 06:42:59 AM
      Only human beings can be facetious, whatever triggers a dog to alert (and we know it can be many things) cannot be facetious, so I think perhaps the comprehension malfunction is yours.

      It was human beings who suggested that dogs trained to find dead bodies will alert to coconuts, pig-based manure, kebabs, snot, and various other peculiar things. They were being serious (really?), but to Carew and others (including me) the suggestions appeared to be facetious (because they were absurd).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:26:10 AM
      The most important point...which the sceptics seem to want to avoid...is that the alerts have no evidential value and it doesn't take much thought to see why this is. Stephen insists that they are circumstantial evidence..which is wrong...circumstantial evidence is admissible in court.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 07:34:29 AM
      The most important point...which the sceptics seem to want to avoid...is that the alerts have no evidential value and it doesn't take much thought to see why this is. Stephen insists that they are circumstantial evidence..which is wrong...circumstantial evidence is admissible in court.

      I would refer to them as clues.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 23, 2015, 07:35:57 AM
      Only human beings can be facetious, whatever triggers a dog to alert (and we know it can be many things) cannot be facetious, so I think perhaps the comprehension malfunction is yours.

      The nit-pickers` convention of one was still in session after I left then...... 8)-)))

      No comprehension issues this end.

       `Twas yourself did struggle and mither over it.

        I........(a human being.... Well spotted)....... did not think up the many and varied alert trigger contaminants. 

       Others ...... ( i.e. another set of human beings)........did so.... and they came across as facetious suggestions when applied in a practical context.

      You`re on your own with it from now on.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:52:05 AM
      I would refer to them as clues.

      I really think the alerts are totally bogus. I've supported Grime but now feel after seeing the report from the PJ re the searches that he has been evasive re the value of the alerts.
      He was asked whether the alert to cuddlecat was a trick or a concrete alert to cadaver odour...he did not answer the question.....some have berated Kate for not answering questions...why should Grime fail to answer this one
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 09:14:35 AM
      I really think the alerts are totally bogus. I've supported Grime but now feel after seeing the report from the PJ re the searches that he has been evasive re the value of the alerts.
      He was asked whether the alert to cuddlecat was a trick or a concrete alert to cadaver odour...he did not answer the question.....some have berated Kate for not answering questions...why should Grime fail to answer this one

      As I see it he was brought in on the recommendation of Mark Harrison. He searched with his dogs where he was asked. His dogs alerted to various McCann related locations and objects. He says several times that the alerts must be confirmed by forensic findings. He also says several times that the dogs alert only to the scents they are trained to find.

      With regard to cuddle cat, he is quite clear I think, considering he has already stated numerous times that the dogs only alert when they find the scent they are trained to find;

      'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
      The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 09:16:56 AM
      I've never taken the alerts seriously to be honest.

      There was too much calling back where as in the other apartments Eddie just ran in and out more or less.

      I think he alerted to blood behind the sofa but I don't believe it had anything to do with Madeleine,   let's be honest would there just be a speck of blood UNDER A TILE if that had anything to do with Madeleine falling banging her head and bleeding from the blow?

      The other alerts Cuddle Cat Eddie played with it picking it up in his mouth,   the clothes again Eddie picked them up in his mouth,  he looked to be playing with them.

      In the garden in my opinion it was probably the garden fertiliser.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 09:19:16 AM
      As I see it he was brought in on the recommendation of Mark Harrison. He searched with his dogs where he was asked. His dogs alerted to various McCann related locations and objects. He says several times that the alerts must be confirmed by forensic findings. He also says several times that the dogs alert only to the scents they are trained to find.

      With regard to cuddle cat, he is quite clear I think, considering he has already stated numerous times that the dogs only alert when they find the scent they are trained to find;

      'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
      The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      so he didn't answer the question....I find that strange

      could you provide a cite where Grime says the dogs ONLY alert to the scent they are trained to find
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 09:33:50 AM
      As I see it he was brought in on the recommendation of Mark Harrison. He searched with his dogs where he was asked. His dogs alerted to various McCann related locations and objects. He says several times that the alerts must be confirmed by forensic findings. He also says several times that the dogs alert only to the scents they are trained to find.

      With regard to cuddle cat, he is quite clear I think, considering he has already stated numerous times that the dogs only alert when they find the scent they are trained to find;

      'Can you confirm if the signal given regarding the stuffed toy corresponds to a concrete alert of detection of a cadaver, or a mere trick played by the dog''
      The dogs were not taught any 'tricks'. EVRD 'signalled' the toy, which at my request was retained by the Judicial Police for future forensic analysis. I have no knowledge of the results of any forensic analysis on the toy.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      The part I underline is simply not true.

      Harrison recommended searches only in those places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably) might have been: the holiday apartments, vehicles owned or driven by Murat and areas in and around PdL.

      How the other searches evolved (and how the other vehicles were included) is a mystery, not obviously answered in the files.

      Harrison does make reference to searches in places Madeleine never lived in or went near, but the way he words it is completely different from his wording in respect of those searches he recommended.

      And there is no mention at all of the inspection in the gym until it is about to happen.

      How did that come about?

      The only apparent explanation is from Amaral's book.

      There was no justification for inspection of clothing at all.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 10:07:13 AM
      The part I underline is simply not true.

      Harrison recommended searches only in those places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably) might have been: the holiday apartments, vehicles owned or driven by Murat and areas in and around PdL.

      How the other searches evolved (and how the other vehicles were included) is a mystery, not obviously answered in the files.

      Harrison does make reference to searches in places Madeleine never lived in or went near, but the way he words it is completely different from his wording in respect of those searches he recommended.

      And there is no mention at all of the inspection in the gym until it is about to happen.

      How did that come about?

      The only apparent explanation is from Amaral's book.

      There was no justification for inspection of clothing at all.

      You should have added, in your opinion, which holds no weight whatsoever.

      Please explain why clothing should not have been expected.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 10:10:23 AM
      You should have added, in your opinion, which holds no weight whatsoever.

      Please explain why clothing should not have been expected.

      what ferryman posted is true......Harrison selected  certain areas to be searched and the PJ added further locations
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 10:23:01 AM
      what ferryman posted is true......Harrison selected  certain areas to be searched and the PJ added further locations

      That doesn't answer the question.

      it would be quite logical to inspect clothing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 10:23:59 AM
      I've never taken the alerts seriously to be honest.

      There was too much calling back where as in the other apartments Eddie just ran in and out more or less.

      I think he alerted to blood behind the sofa but I don't believe it had anything to do with Madeleine,   let's be honest would there just be a speck of blood UNDER A TILE if that had anything to do with Madeleine falling banging her head and bleeding from the blow?

      The other alerts Cuddle Cat Eddie played with it picking it up in his mouth,   the clothes again Eddie picked them up in his mouth,  he looked to be playing with them.

      In the garden in my opinion it was probably the garden fertiliser.

      on what scientific basis do you make that judgement ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 10:36:30 AM
      You should have added, in your opinion, which holds no weight whatsoever.

      Please explain why clothing should not have been expected.

      This was not clothing kept in some special storage awaiting inspection. 

      This was clothing in common circulation as clothing is: worn, washed, hung out on washing lines, packed in suit cases (and all the rest) for fully 3 months after Madeleine's abduction.

      What would they have been looking for?  Traces of Madeleine's blood (obviously microscopic, because blood in quantities visible to the naked human eye wouldn't require a dog to find it).

      And if they had found microscopic traces of Madeleine's blood on any clothing, so what?

      Madeleine sat on mummy's knee or Daddy's knee, has a nose blood or other minor abrasion and blood transfers to clothing.

      What would that prove?

      Here is Harrison's summary of all searches:

      The timeline of these searches was as follows:
       
      On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
       
      On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
       
      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
       
      On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
       
      On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
       
      On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
       
      On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
       
      On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
       


      Harrison acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs only in those searches he recommended: the holiday apartments, the Murat's place (which I should have mentioned earlier), and areas in and around PdL.

      Both inspections at the villa and at the gym, he summarises as PJ exercises.

      And he gives no clue at all who took part in the inspection of vehicles.

      We can confidently state that Amaral's account in his book of how the inspection in the gym came about is a lie.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 10:37:27 AM
      on what scientific basis do you make that judgement ?

      on what scientific basis do you support the alerts...Grime has told us all the alerts cannot be validated scientifically..

      the lack of scientific basis for validation is the root of the controversy around them
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 10:45:45 AM
      on what scientific basis do you support the alerts...Grime has told us all the alerts cannot be validated scientifically..

      the lack of scientific basis for validation is the root of the controversy around them

      Why are dogs employed in forensic searches dave ?

      Please remind us.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 10:47:47 AM
      Why are dogs employed in forensic searches dave ?

      Please remind us.

      They aren't.

      They look for stuff that can be subject to forensic examination (in laboratories).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 10:48:55 AM
      This was not clothing kept in some special storage awaiting inspection. 

      This was clothing in common circulation as clothing is: worn, washed, hung out on washing lines, packed in suit cases (and all the rest) for fully 3 months after Madeleine's abduction.

      What would they have been looking for?  Traces of Madeleine's blood (obviously microscopic, because blood in quantities visible to the naked human eye wouldn't require a dog to find it).

      And if they had found microscopic traces of Madeleine's blood on any clothing, so what?

      Madeleine sat on mummy's knee or Daddy's knee, has a nose blood or other minor abrasion and blood transfers to clothing.

      What would that prove?

      Here is Harrison's summary of all searches:

      The timeline of these searches was as follows:
       
      On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
       
      On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
       
      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
       
      On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
       
      On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
       
      On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
       
      On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
       
      On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
       


      Harrison acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs only in those searches he recommended: the holiday apartments, the Murat's place (which I should have mentioned earlier), and areas in and around PdL.

      Both inspections at the villa and at the gym, he summarises as PJ exercises.

      And he gives no clue at all who took part in the inspection of vehicles.

      We can confidently state that Amaral's account in his book of how the inspection in the gym came about is a lie.


      'We can confidently state that Amaral's account in his book of how the inspection in the gym came about is a lie'

      Who is this 'we' again  ?

      Where you in Portugal at the time ?

      I would venture to suggest that forensic examination of clothing is a standard procedure. in criminal investigations.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 10:51:17 AM
      Why are dogs employed in forensic searches dave ?

      Please remind us.

      To find evidence......it is a simple as that. I have explained this to you several times
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 10:51:42 AM
      They aren't.

      They look for stuff that can be subject to forensic examination (in laboratories).

      'look for stuff'  ???

      As a general reference point .....................

      http://aboutforensics.co.uk/detection-dogs/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 10:54:46 AM
      'look for stuff'  ???

      As a general reference point .....................

      http://aboutforensics.co.uk/detection-dogs/

      looks like your article agrees totally with me...no surprise
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 11:00:22 AM
      looks like your article agrees totally with me...no surprise


      Dogs are trained to respond to certain compounds and when they detect them, they react.

      Quite right.

      and these did.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 11:01:53 AM

      Dogs are trained to respond to certain compounds and when they detect them, they react.

      Quite right.

      and these did.

      I think you need to read the article you have quoted... @)(++(* @)(++(*...properly
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 11:03:13 AM
      'look for stuff'  ???

      As a general reference point .....................

      http://aboutforensics.co.uk/detection-dogs/

      Where does your link say anything about dogs playing a forensic role?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 11:05:57 AM

      Dogs are trained to respond to certain compounds and when they detect them, they react.

      Quite right.

      and these did.

      no one knows what eddie reacted to in PDL...not even Grime
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 11:07:13 AM
      on what scientific basis do you make that judgement ?

      On the basis of observation.

      Other cadaver dogs I have watched do not pick up the objects in their mouths,  they are trained not to,  if they do it will contaminate evidence.   Eddie was trained to bark an alert not to pick items up in his mouth.

      Can you say hand on heart that if Grime didn't know 5a was where Madeleine had been staying for almost a week he would have called Eddie back so many times?     If he hadn't kept calling Eddie back Eddie would just have ran round the bedroom and out again.    If he had done that in any of the other apartments Grime would have left it at that.

      What do you think Eddie alerted to in the garden Stephen?    Do you think Madeleine had been left in the garden for some reason?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 11:10:07 AM
      no one knows what eddie reacted to in PDL...not even Grime

      Grime is not a forensic scientist, is he ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 11:11:05 AM
      On the basis of observation.

      Other cadaver dogs I have watched do not pick up the objects in their mouths,  they are trained not to,  if they do it will contaminate evidence.   Eddie was trained to bark an alert not to pick items up in his mouth.

      Can you say hand on heart that if Grime didn't know 5a was where Madeleine had been staying for almost a week he would have called Eddie back so many times?     If he hadn't kept calling Eddie back Eddie would just have ran round the bedroom and out again.    If he had done that in any of the other apartments Grime would have left it at that.

      What do you think Eddie alerted to in the garden Stephen?    Do you think Madeleine had been left in the garden for some reason?

      So observation of fertilizer ??? @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 11:13:01 AM
      Grime is not a forensic scientist, is he ?

      and of what importance is that,,,we are talking about alerts...what do the forensic scientist say about the alerts...b....r all Stephen. They simply analyse what the dogs find
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 11:15:23 AM
      Grime is not a forensic scientist, is he ?

      I have read that for training dogs properly for forensic searches the handler should study forensics don't know if Grime did or not.

      Dogs are trained to alert to compounds as you say Stephen,  but no one knows what it is they are exactly smelling,  with drugs the handler would know,  but with cadaver scent no one really knows.

      Eddie was trained with pig at first,  he is not going to forget the scent of pigs,   also he alerts to blood, from alive human beings,  this was demonstrated when he alerted to the key fob which had Gerry's blood on it.   Also I remember a video I watched a while back where Grime hid a sample of his own blood for Eddie to find.

      Eddie could well be alerting to blood,   the scent would remain even if the article was removed as the forensic scientists said in that article I posted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 11:16:34 AM
      So observation of fertilizer ??? @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      Now what are you talking about?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 11:17:57 AM
      From the files, the closest we get to an explanation of the inspection at the gym is this (very first mention):

      Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, [the gym] attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

      There was only one (recorded!) alert in the villa, to cuddle-cat .....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 11:32:05 AM
      Now what are you talking about?

      You mentioned garden fertilizer a few posts ago.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 11:34:04 AM
      You mentioned garden fertilizer a few posts ago.

      What was the post 'observation of fertiliser'   supposed to be about?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 23, 2015, 11:38:43 AM
      The nit-pickers` convention of one was still in session after I left then...... 8)-)))

      No comprehension issues this end.

       `Twas yourself did struggle and mither over it.

        I........(a human being.... Well spotted)....... did not think up the many and varied alert trigger contaminants. 

       Others ...... ( i.e. another set of human beings)........did so.... and they came across as facetious suggestions when applied in a practical context.

      You`re on your own with it from now on.
      See my response above.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 11:39:50 AM
      What was the post 'observation of fertiliser'   supposed to be about?

      Work it out for yourself.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 11:40:49 AM
      From the files, the closest we get to an explanation of the inspection at the gym is this (very first mention):

      Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, [the gym] attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

      There was only one (recorded!) alert in the villa, to cuddle-cat .....

      'kila' ??? 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 12:00:06 PM
      Work it out for yourself.

      I take it it was just a silly childish quip meaning nothing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 12:02:46 PM
      I take it it was just a silly childish quip meaning nothing.

      You mentioned garden fertilizer.

      Can you provide a list of compounds in garden fertilizer that dogs would indicate to ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 12:25:49 PM
      I've never taken the alerts seriously to be honest.

      There was too much calling back where as in the other apartments Eddie just ran in and out more or less.

      I think he alerted to blood behind the sofa but I don't believe it had anything to do with Madeleine,   let's be honest would there just be a speck of blood UNDER A TILE if that had anything to do with Madeleine falling banging her head and bleeding from the blow?

      The other alerts Cuddle Cat Eddie played with it picking it up in his mouth,   the clothes again Eddie picked them up in his mouth,  he looked to be playing with them.

      In the garden in my opinion it was probably the garden fertiliser.

      You're entitled to your opinion but fertilizer? Please!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 23, 2015, 12:34:18 PM
      You're entitled to your opinion but fertilizer? Please!
      If fertilizer contains the remains of pigs why would you find it so far fetched?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 12:38:16 PM
      If fertilizer contains the remains of pigs why would you find it so far fetched?

      What exactly do you mean by remains ?

      and what compounds would the dogs alert to exactly ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 12:44:49 PM
      What exactly do you mean by remains ?

      and what compounds would the dogs alert to exactly ?

      I think you will find that no one really knows the entire range of compounds the dogs alert to
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 12:45:37 PM
      http://www.teagasc.ie/pigs/articles/farming_independent/2007/PigManureFI180407.pdf
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 12:48:12 PM
      You mentioned garden fertilizer.

      Can you provide a list of compounds in garden fertilizer that dogs would indicate to ?

      Not a compound but there is blood in Bone meal,    Eddie alerted to blood as well Stephen.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 12:52:07 PM
      Not a compound but there is blood in Bone meal,    Eddie alerted to blood as well Stephen.


      That is amazing. Never knew that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 12:54:05 PM
      snip>>>>>
      We believe that the main damage was caused to the McCann arguidos, who lost the possibility to prove what they have protested since they were constituted arguidos: their innocence towards the fateful event; the investigation was also disturbed, because said facts remain unclarified. <<<< snip

      Prove almost certainly should be demonstrate.

      Or, if the prosecutors indeed said prove, they were letting their fascist slips show ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 12:54:21 PM
      I think you will find that no one really knows the entire range of compounds the dogs alert to

      It is the compound present in the samples they were trained on.

      There are several analytical techniques available for those compounds to be identified, qualitatively and quantitatively.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 12:54:59 PM
      The part I underline is simply not true.

      Harrison recommended searches only in those places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably) might have been: the holiday apartments, vehicles owned or driven by Murat and areas in and around PdL.

      How the other searches evolved (and how the other vehicles were included) is a mystery, not obviously answered in the files.

      Harrison does make reference to searches in places Madeleine never lived in or went near, but the way he words it is completely different from his wording in respect of those searches he recommended.

      And there is no mention at all of the inspection in the gym until it is about to happen.

      How did that come about?

      The only apparent explanation is from Amaral's book.

      There was no justification for inspection of clothing at all.

      You can read all about it here, including search warrants requested, granted and the reasons;

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 12:56:46 PM
      Prove almost certainly should be demonstrate.

      Or, if the prosecutors indeed said prove, they were letting their fascist slips show ...

      Xenophobia strikes again.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 12:58:40 PM
      If you make a statement that you genuinely believe to be true then that is not being facetious is it?  If someone says that they believe Jeremy Corbyn is the ideal leader of the opposition and will make a great Prime Minister and they really mean it, then ludicrous though that belief is as far as I'm concerned then that is not being facetious.  If I said it however, that would be a different matter!

      I said it appeared facetious to me and to others because it was so obvious to us that it was absurd.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 01:01:33 PM
      Not a compound but there is blood in Bone meal,    Eddie alerted to blood as well Stephen.

      Human blood and dead bodies. This gets more fanciful by the day.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 01:16:37 PM
      It is the compound present in the samples they were trained on.

      There are several analytical techniques available for those compounds to be identified, qualitatively and quantitatively.
      The research could also help with the training of ‘human remains detection canines’. ‘We know very little about what compounds or combinations of compounds are recognised by sniffer dogs,’ says  Williams.

      http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2014/06/smell-death-cadaver-body-decay
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 01:34:20 PM
      You can read all about it here, including search warrants requested, granted and the reasons;

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

      So it was Carlos who requested permission to search the villa, based on Harrison's report, but not his recommendation.

      And still no mention of the inspection in the gym.

      Why is that?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 23, 2015, 01:51:16 PM
      I said it appeared facetious to me and to others because it was so obvious to us that it was absurd.
      What, specifically, do you find absurd?  The fact that dogs may falsely alert for a variety of reasons?  Why do you find that absurd when there is ample evidence to suggest that dogs DO give false positives?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 01:54:09 PM
      The research could also help with the training of ‘human remains detection canines’. ‘We know very little about what compounds or combinations of compounds are recognised by sniffer dogs,’ says  Williams.

      http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2014/06/smell-death-cadaver-body-decay

      From the same article.

      ' ‘Several groups are working on e-noses at the moment,’ Focant says, ‘but we are not sure if this technology will ever make sniffer dogs obsolete.’

      Bar haemoglobin and certain other proteins present in transgenic pigs used to produce 'human' haemoglobin, there be differences in the amino acid sequences resulting from protein hydrolysis after death,as well as the residues from the decomposition of other organic compounds from a body.

      Now I believe it has been established that blood samples that have been obtained were from human sources, so any reference to the pigs or 'fertilizer' is essentially a red herring, unless proven otherwise.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 02:50:46 PM
      From the same article.

      ' ‘Several groups are working on e-noses at the moment,’ Focant says, ‘but we are not sure if this technology will ever make sniffer dogs obsolete.’

      Bar haemoglobin and certain other proteins present in transgenic pigs used to produce 'human' haemoglobin, there be differences in the amino acid sequences resulting from protein hydrolysis after death,as well as the residues from the decomposition of other organic compounds from a body.

      Now I believe it has been established that blood samples that have been obtained were from human sources, so any reference to the pigs or 'fertilizer' is essentially a red herring, unless proven otherwise.

      I don't think you understand my reference to fertiliser Stephen,   if the blood in the Fertiliser is pig then Eddie would alert to it,  so not a red herring as Eddie was trained using Pig meat at first.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 03:03:08 PM
      I don't think you understand my reference to fertiliser Stephen,   if the blood in the Fertiliser is pig then Eddie would alert to it,  so not a red herring as Eddie was trained using Pig meat at first.

      It's you who doesn't understand.

      There would be clear biochemical differences between the pig and human, bar transgenic species.

      Now did the forensic samples indicate the presence of any pig D.N.A. from those collected where the dogs alerted ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 23, 2015, 03:20:00 PM
      It's you who doesn't understand.

      There would be clear biochemical differences between the pig and human, bar transgenic species.

      Now did the forensic samples indicate the presence of any pig D.N.A. from those collected where the dogs alerted ?
      What forensics were done to the flowerbed?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 03:36:58 PM
      It's you who doesn't understand.

      There would be clear biochemical differences between the pig and human, bar transgenic species.

      Now did the forensic samples indicate the presence of any pig D.N.A. from those collected where the dogs alerted ?

      nothing of any significance was found
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 03:48:52 PM
      What forensics were done to the flowerbed?

      The only pertinent question is, where there any non human 'traces' in the samples analysed.

      If there wasn't all reference to pigs is pure hogwash.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 23, 2015, 04:09:59 PM
      The only pertinent question is, where there any non human 'traces' in the samples analysed.

      If there wasn't all reference to pigs is pure hogwash.
      What samples were taken from the flowerbed? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 04:10:34 PM
      The only pertinent question is, where there any non human 'traces' in the samples analysed.

      If there wasn't all reference to pigs is pure hogwash.

      Were there any non human traces in The Death Scent?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 04:15:41 PM
      Were there any non human traces in The Death Scent?

      That is precisely what I am asking.

      If they're wasn't then all this about the pigs is irrelevant.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 04:25:46 PM
      That is precisely what I am asking.

      If they're wasn't then all this about the pigs is irrelevant.

      If you think it is possible to detect no human traces in a Death Scent then you are a better man than I am, Gunger Din
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 23, 2015, 04:26:22 PM
      The dog alerted to the flowerbed.  What forensics were done on the flowerbed?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 04:28:03 PM
      If you think it is possible to detect no human traces in a Death Scent then you are a better man than I am, Gunger Din


      ???
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 04:29:24 PM
      The dog alerted to the flowerbed.  What forensics were done on the flowerbed?

      Cuttings from the flowerbed were sent to the FSS, without result ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 04:29:37 PM
      The dog alerted to the flowerbed.  What forensics were done on the flowerbed?

      What is in the FSS report ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 04:43:33 PM
      The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.


      (John Lowe)

      That reference suggests a prior reference to the fragments of bushes which I can't find for the moment.

      But that was presumably all sent off because Kela alerted ...

      A signalling error by Keela ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 23, 2015, 04:43:59 PM
      The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.

      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

      ETA.

      Sorry FM, You beat me to it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 05:02:33 PM
      The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.

      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

      ETA.

      Sorry FM, You beat me to it.

      but the dogs only react to what they are trained for
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 05:05:17 PM
      It's you who doesn't understand.

      There would be clear biochemical differences between the pig and human, bar transgenic species.

      Now did the forensic samples indicate the presence of any pig D.N.A. from those collected where the dogs alerted ?

      It would be the SCENT the dog was alerting to not DNA.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 05:06:09 PM
      but the dogs only react to what they are trained for

      Yep.

      Certainly the curtain seems to be a signalling error by Keela.

      I think the bushes might have been sent off at the recommendation of a technician (in fairness to Keela).

      I would need to go back and check that, though.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 23, 2015, 05:08:31 PM
      The curtains (286A/2007 - CR/L 16 and 16B) and the piece of white curtain (286B/2007 - CR/L 1) and the fragments of bushes (286/2007 CR/L 21) were examined for the presence of blood. No blood was found.


      (John Lowe)

      That reference suggests a prior reference to the fragments of bushes which I can't find for the moment.

      But that was presumably all sent off because Kela alerted ...

      A signalling error by Keela ....
      I wonder how they determined which bit of the bush to send off?  Was it the bit that Keela specifically pointed to with her nose?  So the bed itself was not examined, just the bush?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 05:12:09 PM
      It would be the SCENT the dog was alerting to not DNA.

      Eddie was trained using decomposing piglets but he had also found human remains previously. He wasn't a new recruit, he had experience and knew exactly what scent he was searching for. If such dogs alerted to all the materials suggested on here there would be no police force using them now.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 05:14:32 PM
      Eddie was trained using decomposing piglets but he had also found human remains previously. He wasn't a new recruit, he had experience and knew exactly what scent he was searching for. If such dogs alerted to all the materials suggested on here there would be no police force using them now.

      Eddie also alerted to blood Gunit,   blood is in fertiliser,   Grime also he said it was difficult for the dog to distinguish between pig and human remains,  it is quite possible he could smell pig blood.

      So what did Eddie alert to in the garden?

      They should have taken samples of the soil.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 05:16:14 PM
      Eddie was trained using decomposing piglets but he had also found human remains previously. He wasn't a new recruit, he had experience and knew exactly what scent he was searching for. If such dogs alerted to all the materials suggested on here there would be no police force using them now.

      By the way what 'all the materials' are you talking about?    I was only talking about blood.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 23, 2015, 05:23:20 PM
      Eddie was trained using decomposing piglets but he had also found human remains previously. He wasn't a new recruit, he had experience and knew exactly what scent he was searching for. If such dogs alerted to all the materials suggested on here there would be no police force using them now.
      If you take a metal detector out to look for treasure and it beeps and you discover a rusty nail, you discard that and move on and keep searching.  You don't stop using the detector because it made a few wrong bleeps, eventually it will bleep on something of value.  What's the difference between that and a VRD?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 05:23:49 PM
      Eddie also alerted to blood Gunit,   blood is in fertiliser,   Grime also he said it was difficult for the dog to distinguish between pig and human remains,  it is quite possible he could smell pig blood.

      So what did Eddie alert to in the garden?

      They should have taken samples of the soil.

      Human blood Lace, not pig blood. You really must try to grasp that the dogs have to be specific. A dog that alerted to a range of scents just wouldn't be any use, and Eddie had worked for years. He knew what he was looking for - the scent of human blood (dried) or the scent of a dead human body. Nothing else at all.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 23, 2015, 05:27:26 PM
      If you take a metal detector out to look for treasure and it beeps and you discover a rusty nail, you discard that and move on and keep searching.  You don't stop using the detector because it made a few wrong bleeps, eventually it will bleep on something of value.  What's the difference between that and a VRD?

      Trouble is all a wrong bleep says is you have failed to find the metal.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 05:30:35 PM
      I wonder how they determined which bit of the bush to send off?  Was it the bit that Keela specifically pointed to with her nose?  So the bed itself was not examined, just the bush?

      There was a technician called Jonathon Smith who recommended that fragments of bush be sent to the FSS.

      I can't find the exact reference for the moment, though ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 05:31:50 PM
      It would be the SCENT the dog was alerting to not DNA.

      Yep.  Could be Pig Scent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 23, 2015, 05:36:06 PM
      Trouble is all a wrong bleep says is you have failed to find the metal.

      Cadaver dogs will be used until a substitute is invented.

      They find bodies in large areas. Therefore cutting down the time required by police officers. IMO They do a good job, when used as they are meant to be used.
      ......................................
      An old but interesting article, which also mentions, Mark Harrison.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lyall on August 23, 2015, 05:37:49 PM
      Yep.

      Certainly the curtain seems to be a signalling error by Keela.

      I think the bushes might have been sent off at the recommendation of a technician (in fairness to Keela).

      I would need to go back and check that, though.

      An error? You're declaring that based on the FSS reports?

      The samples recovered and sent to UK were degraded. The failure of tests on degraded material can't be used as evidence the same tests would have failed had they been done 3 months earlier.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 05:38:12 PM
      It would be the SCENT the dog was alerting to not DNA.

      Really, so where was the scent laid down, and what proof was there that it originated with pig products ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 05:39:09 PM
      Yep.

      Certainly the curtain seems to be a signalling error by Keela.

      I think the bushes might have been sent off at the recommendation of a technician (in fairness to Keela).

      I would need to go back and check that, though.

      So you have access to the entire recordings made of  the dogs searches ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 05:40:42 PM
      Yep.  Could be Pig Scent.

      For that you need evidence.

      Is there any of pig residues ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 05:42:03 PM
      Really, so where was the scent laid down, and what proof was there that it originated with pig products ?

      The scent would have been wafting from the garden obviously.   

      What proof is there that it wasn't pig residue?

      edited to change 'products' to 'residue'
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 05:43:03 PM
      Because of this it was also asked of the undersigned that they entered into contact with an English scientific advisor, named Jonathan Smith, who indicated which traces should be collected and the best way to proceed with their collection.

      In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood, with the recovery of hair in the corridor [pathway] that exists in the area of the back garden next to the window of the couple's bedroom, with the recovery of several pieces of the branches of the climbing plant in the garden (for later check of possible blood traces on them) and with the recovery of possible fibres on the garden wall next to the climbing plant.


      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_EDDIE-KEELA.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lyall on August 23, 2015, 05:43:50 PM
      The scent would have been wafting from the garden obviously.   

      What proof is there that it wasn't pig products?

      Pig products? It would have to be decomposed pig, not 'products'. Likely?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 05:48:24 PM
      Pig products? It would have to be decomposed pig, not 'products'. Likely?

      Sorry you're right should have been pig residue.    8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lyall on August 23, 2015, 05:50:16 PM
      Sorry you're right should have been pig residue.    8((()*/

      What do you mean by pig residue?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 05:50:56 PM
      The scent would have been wafting from the garden obviously.   

      What proof is there that it wasn't pig residue?

      edited to change 'products' to 'residue'


       @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      Nothing in the forensic results.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 05:52:47 PM
      An error? You're declaring that based on the FSS reports?

      The samples recovered and sent to UK were degraded. The failure of tests on degraded material can't be used as evidence the same tests would have failed had they been done 3 months earlier.

      The curtain was sent to the FSS because Keela reacted. 

      No blood was found by the FSS.

      Signalling error by Keela
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 05:53:20 PM

       @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      Nothing in the forensic results.

      What forensic results? 

      It isn't possible to define what is in a death scent.  It could be Pig Scent from the garden.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 05:53:25 PM
      I just had a thought,   Grime says Eddie wouldn't alert to any edible pig products, such as pork,  pork chop,  bacon etc.    He used piglets not fit for human consumption,  by that I think he means they were decomposing piglets.  Yet he took a piece of pork drenched it in petrol,  burnt it, hid it,  and Eddie alerted to it.   Surely if you took say a pork chop drenched it in petrol, burnt it, hid it,  Eddie would alert to that too, it's all pork at the end of the day and I would think burnt pork would give off the same scent no matter what shape of food it started off in,  wouldn't it?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 05:56:57 PM
      What forensic results? 

      It isn't possible to define what is in a death scent.  It could be Pig Scent from the garden.

      Are you saying that the scent molecules remain stationary in the air ?

      Obviously they wouldn't.

      They would be coming from a source and if therw was a pig residue it would have shown up from the samples collected.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 05:58:15 PM
      Are you saying that the scent molecules remain stationary in the air ?

      Obviously they wouldn't.

      They would be coming from a source and if therw was a pig residue it would have shown up from the samples collected.

      What samples?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lyall on August 23, 2015, 05:58:33 PM
      I just had a thought,   Grime says Eddie wouldn't alert to any edible pig products, such as pork,  pork chop,  bacon etc.    He used piglets not fit for human consumption,  by that I think he means they were decomposing piglets.  Yet he took a piece of pork drenched it in petrol,  burnt it, hid it,  and Eddie alerted to it.   Surely if you took say a pork chop drenched it in petrol, burnt it, hid it,  Eddie would alert to that too, it's all pork at the end of the day and I would think burnt pork would give off the same scent no matter what shape of food it started off in,  wouldn't it?

       &%&£(+

      A pork chop is not decomposed, and neither is it the whole animal. Dogs are trained on decomposing whole animals (pigs).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 05:58:45 PM
      I just had a thought,   Grime says Eddie wouldn't alert to any edible pig products, such as pork,  pork chop,  bacon etc.    He used piglets not fit for human consumption,  by that I think he means they were decomposing piglets.  Yet he took a piece of pork drenched it in petrol,  burnt it, hid it,  and Eddie alerted to it.   Surely if you took say a pork chop drenched it in petrol, burnt it, hid it,  Eddie would alert to that too, it's all pork at the end of the day and I would think burnt pork would give off the same scent no matter what shape of food it started off in,  wouldn't it?

      So in the burnt sample there was something to detect.

      Now what did the forensics show ???
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 05:59:38 PM
      What samples?

      What do you think the FSS were analysing ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 23, 2015, 06:00:54 PM
      Trouble is all a wrong bleep says is you have failed to find the metal.
      So? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 06:01:35 PM
      What do you think the FSS were analysing ?

      Human Blood.  None of it Madeleines.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 06:03:11 PM
      Are you saying that the scent molecules remain stationary in the air ?

      Obviously they wouldn't.

      They would be coming from a source and if therw was a pig residue it would have shown up from the samples collected.

      of course scent molecules do not remain stationary in the air...they would disperse in wind and rain....so how many molecules would remain for the dog to detect...ask Avogadro...I reckon it would be none...but it is nearly 50 years since I studied my science s levels...so I just may have forgotten a little
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:06:22 PM
      Human Blood.  None of it Madeleines.

      Can you provide the link to that please ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 06:07:50 PM
      So in the burnt sample there was something to detect.

      Now what did the forensics show ???

      What are you on about Stephen?    Grime just showed how Eddie would detect a piece of pork that had been burnt, whilst training Eddie,  I don't think forensics would have been involved as it was a piece of pork Grime had required not from a murdered pig.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 06:09:09 PM
      &%&£(+

      A pork chop is not decomposed, and neither is it the whole animal. Dogs are trained on decomposing whole animals (pigs).

      Right got it     8((()*/    but it would still contain blood?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:09:22 PM
      of course scent molecules do not remain stationary in the air...they would disperse in wind and rain....so how many molecules would remain for the dog to detect...ask Avogadro...I reckon it would be none...but it is nearly 50 years since I studied my science s levels...so I just may have forgotten a little

      That's not in 'S' levels dave.

      Moles and Avogadro's Constant are taught in G.C.S.E. these days, and 'O' Levels when I learned it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 23, 2015, 06:10:28 PM
      The curtain was sent to the FSS because Keela reacted. 

      No blood was found by the FSS.

      Signalling error by Keela

      Is that the white curtain - the same curtain which Keela did not alert to on the first visit?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:11:00 PM
      What are you on about Stephen?    Grime just showed how Eddie would detect a piece of pork that had been burnt, whilst training Eddie,  I don't think forensics would have been involved as it was a piece of pork Grime had required not from a murdered pig.

      If there was any pig residue in the samples, it would have shown up in the forensics results.

      What part of that don't you get exactly ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 06:13:12 PM
      What are you on about Stephen?    Grime just showed how Eddie would detect a piece of pork that had been burnt, whilst training Eddie,  I don't think forensics would have been involved as it was a piece of pork Grime had required not from a murdered pig.

      In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in

      petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.


      (Martin Grime)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 06:13:36 PM
      That's not in 'S' levels dave.

      Moles and Avogadro's Constant are taught in G.C.S.E. these days, and 'O' Levels when I learned it.

      I was being a little sarcastic...I only took A level chemistry...it was normal to take only 2 s levels and I took physics and further maths.

      Still I don't see many molecules remaining outside after 3 months...with wind and rain..if any..
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 23, 2015, 06:22:17 PM
      Is that the white curtain - the same curtain which Keela did not alert to on the first visit?

      Yes!

      I'd forgotten about that.

      Again, I would need to check the details but I do have a distinct recollection (from way back) of discussion about an alert by Keela second time of asking that was not forthcoming first time.

      Can't remember, now, why there was a re-checking ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 06:23:28 PM
      Can you provide the link to that please ?

      You know very well that none of the blood found in 5A was proven to be Madeleines.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:23:52 PM
      I was being a little sarcastic...I only took A level chemistry...it was normal to take only 2 s levels and I took physics and further maths.

      Still I don't see many molecules remaining outside after 3 months...with wind and rain..if any..

      Of course dave.

      There are many variables involved, other than wind and rain.

      b.pt / adsorbance onto surfaces, which would differ according to the compound(s) being adsorbed and the material(s) onto which they were adsorbed. let's not forget wither that would be affected by intermolecular forces and interactions occurring between the compounds involved. However, I'm sure you know that already.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:25:03 PM
      In training the dog has accurately alerted to a 1 cm cube of pork soaked in

      petrol for 1 week and then burnt until only a residue remains.


      (Martin Grime)

      and the dogs alerted.

      Yet the forensic results have shown no pig residues.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:27:36 PM
      You know very well that none of the blood found in 5A was proven to be Madeleines.

      Can you provide the link ?

      Bearing in mind the forensic results were inconclusive and the genetic markers present, were insufficient In Portuguese Law to show some of the samples came from Madeleine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 06:28:33 PM
      Of course dave.

      There are many variables involved, other than wind and rain.

      b.pt / adsorbance onto surfaces, which would differ according to the compound(s) being adsorbed and the material(s) onto which they were adsorbed. let's not forget wither that would be affected by intermolecular forces and interactions occurring between the compounds involved. However, I'm sure you know that already.

      I know enough to realise that all of that is of little significance compared to wind a rain...the gas molecules would quickly dissipate....would you not agree
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:33:58 PM
      I know enough to realise that all of that is of little significance compared to wind a rain...the gas molecules would quickly dissipate....would you not agree

      Gas molecules dave ?

      it would be vapours at best from liquids.

      How many diammines have low boiling points ?

      e.g. cadaverine has a b.pt. of approx. 180 Celsius.

      and diammines are just one section of the possible compounds present.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 06:41:19 PM
      Gas molecules dave ?

      it would be vapours at best from liquids.

      How many diammines have low boiling points ?

      and diammines are just one section of the possible compounds present.

      First I think you missed out intramolecular forces in you previous post...re the breakdown of large molecules by rain

      yes gas molecules..isn't that what is reaching eddies nose....water has a boiling point of 100deg c yet water evaporates into a gas


      Smell depends on sensory receptors that respond to airborne chemicals...if the chemical are airborne they would dissipate in wind and rain
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 06:42:42 PM
      Can you provide the link ?

      Bearing in mind the forensic results were inconclusive and the genetic markers present, were insufficient In Portuguese Law to show some of the samples came from Madeleine.

      Stop trying to derail the discussion, Stephen.  I am not hunting for cites that are already on this Forum.  You look for it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:45:56 PM
      First I think you missed out intramolecular forces in you previous post...

      yes gas molecules..isn't that what is reaching eddies nose....water has a boiling point of 100deg c yet water evaporates into a gas

      That's not really relevant dave, as regards intramolecular forces. You've been googling again. Internal molecular forces, be they H-Bonding, Dipole-Dipole or Van der Waal's are irrelevant here.

      Under 'normal' conditions dave water evaporates into a vapour.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:46:57 PM
      Stop trying to derail the discussion, Stephen.  I am not hunting for cites that are already on this Forum.  You look for it.

      I'm not derailing.

      The forensic results were inconclusive.

      FACT.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:48:54 PM
      First I think you missed out intramolecular forces in you previous post...re the breakdown of large molecules by rain

      yes gas molecules..isn't that what is reaching eddies nose....water has a boiling point of 100deg c yet water evaporates into a gas


      Smell depends on sensory receptors that respond to airborne chemicals...if the chemical are airborne they would dissipate in wind and rain

      If, if, if.........

      Not as simple as that dave.

      Do you have records of the weather for that period, soil conditions, including pH ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 06:50:29 PM
      That's not really relevant dave, as regards intramolecular forces. You've been googling again. Internal molecular forces, be they H-Bonding, Dipole-Dipole or Van der Waal's are irrelevant here.

      Under 'normal' conditions dave water evaporates into a vapour.

      that's right...water vapour...water in the form of a gas resulting from heating water or ice


      anything in the air will dissipate in wind and rain...surely you understand taht
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:53:05 PM
      that's right...water vapour...water in the form of a gas resulting from heating water or ice


      anything in the air will dissipate in wind and rain...surely you understand taht

      Double dutch dave.

      A vapour  represents molecules which have sufficient Kinetic Energy to escape from the surface of a liquid, which hasn't reached it's b.pt.

      and of course dave, the vapours of the compounds come form different sources after being laid down and adsorbed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 06:53:51 PM


       for stephen



      In physics a vapor (American English spelling) or vapour (British) is a substance in the gas phase at a temperature lower than its critical point.


      so a vapour IS a gas...and I do understand what I have pasted
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:56:10 PM

       for stephen



      In physics a vapor (American English spelling) or vapour (British) is a substance in the gas phase at a temperature lower than its critical point.


      so a vapour IS a gas...and I do understand what I have pasted

      Googled again dave.

      For you dave, what is meant by the b.pt ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 06:56:27 PM
      Double dutch dave.

      A vapour  represents molecules which have sufficient Kinetic Energy to escape from the surface of a liquid, which hasn't reached it's b.pt.

      see my post above Stephen...a vapour is a gas...and like a gas the molecules exhibit Brownian motion and will dissipate...If this didn't happen we would have no rain
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:57:14 PM
      that's right...water vapour...water in the form of a gas resulting from heating water or ice


      anything in the air will dissipate in wind and rain...surely you understand taht

      Water becomes a true gas dave, at it's b.pt. and above obviously.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 06:57:54 PM
      Googled again dave.

      For you dave, what is meant by the b.pt ?

      what a simply stupid question...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 06:59:46 PM
      see my post above Stephen...a vapour is a gas...and like a gas the molecules exhibit Brownian motion and will dissipate...If this didn't happen we would have no rain

      Wrong dave.

      Water molecules bond adhere to nuclei such as dust particles inside clouds forming water droplets or the equivalent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:00:22 PM
      what a simply stupid question...

      Very pertinent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 23, 2015, 07:01:35 PM
      I'm not derailing.

      The forensic results were inconclusive.

      FACT.

      Well, yes. The one spot in 5A comprising five alleles compatible with hers is indeed, erm, inconclusive. All three of unrelated DNA profiles that somehow got published in the files had at least that many in common.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:01:40 PM
      see my post above Stephen...a vapour is a gas...and like a gas the molecules exhibit Brownian motion and will dissipate...If this didn't happen we would have no rain

      Brownian Motion dave, merely demonstrates Kinetic Theory.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 07:01:46 PM
      I'm not derailing.

      The forensic results were inconclusive.

      FACT.

      Did any of them contain Death Scent?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:02:01 PM
      Wrong dave.

      Water molecules bond adhere to nuclei such as dust particles inside clouds forming water droplets or the equivalent.

      and these clouds dissipate....they move...with wind
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:03:20 PM
      Brownian Motion dave, merely demonstrates Kinetic Theory.

      which causes dissipation of the gas...those gas molecules could be over Australia by now
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:03:31 PM
      Well, yes. The one spot in 5A comprising five alleles compatible with hers is indeed, erm, inconclusive. All three of unrelated DNA profiles that somehow got published in the files had at least that many in common.

      This among other reasons is why it is very unlikely this case will ever be solved.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:04:19 PM
      and these clouds dissipate....they move...with wind

      Indeed. 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:04:39 PM
      Brownian Motion dave, merely demonstrates Kinetic Theory.

      you did not realise a vapour was a gas...epic fail stephen
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:05:00 PM
      which causes dissipation of the gas...those gas molecules could be over Australia by now


      and ..............................
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:06:40 PM
      Indeed. 8**8:/:

      dog's smell by alerting to airborne molecules...airborne molecules dissipate....I don't see how any molecules would be left outside in the wind and rain
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:09:29 PM
      you did not realise a vapour was a gas...epic fail stephen

      No dave.

      I know the key difference between a vapour and a gas.

      e.g. At room temperature and pressure, r.t.p. for you dave, OXYGEN IS A GAS, WATER IS A LIQUID.

      Some water molecules escape the surface and become a vapor because they have gained extra K.E.

      This does not make liquid water a gas dave.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:10:26 PM
      dog's smell by alerting to airborne molecules...airborne molecules dissipate....I don't see how any molecules would be left outside in the wind and rain

      What rain dave ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 07:12:42 PM

      Don't start with the insults?  Thank You.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:13:19 PM
      No dave.

      I know the key difference between a vapour and a gas.

      e.g. At room temperature and pressure, r.t.p. for you dave, OXYGEN IS A GAS, WATER IS A LIQUID.

      Some water molecules escape the surface and become a vapor because they have gained extra K.E.

      This does not make liquid water a gas dave.

      Do keep up.

      water vapour IS a gas...epic fail
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:15:31 PM
      water vapour IS a gas...epic fail

      Dear oh dear.

      Water becomes a gas above it's b.pt.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:15:44 PM
      What rain dave ?

      the rain caused by the water in the sea that changes into the gas called water VAPOUR that then falls on the land
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 23, 2015, 07:16:10 PM
      What rain dave ?

      Could it be the rain which falls from the sky?  (just a wild guess) :-)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:17:16 PM
      Dear oh dear.

      Water becomes a gas above it's b.pt.

      There is helping you, is there. &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

      wrong ..molecules escape and become water vapour...which is  a gas...below the b.pt
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:17:52 PM
      the rain caused by the water in the sea that changes into the gas called water VAPOUR that then falls on the land



      You really will have to stop googling.

      Try looking up the water cycle.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:20:08 PM


      You really will have to stop googling.

      Try looking up the water cycle.

      I think you need to start googling...try googling vapour and you will find out it is a gas
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 23, 2015, 07:20:32 PM
      and the dogs alerted.

      Yet the forensic results have shown no pig residues.

      No samples were taken from the floor in the bedroom and no sample was taken from the soil in the garden,  so how do you know forensic results showed no pig residue?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:20:37 PM
      wrong ..molecules escape and become water vapour...which is  a gas...below the b.pt

      No dave, it isn't.

      That is why we have the term b.pt.

      By the way, without googling it, what is meant bty the term 'latent heat of vapourization' ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:21:57 PM
      I think you need to start googling...try googling vapour and you will find out it is a gas
      I don't need to dave.

      Why do you think there are 2 different terms ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:24:34 PM
      I don't need to dave.

      Why do you think there are 2 different terms ?

      google it and you will find out
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:25:17 PM
      google it and you will find out

      I learned that decades ago dave.

      I don't need to google it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:25:50 PM
      No dave, it isn't.

      That is why we have the term b.pt.

      By the way, without googling it, what is meant bty the term 'latent heat of vapourization' ?

      I suggest you stop answering stupid questions...I think we covered that when I was about 12
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:26:49 PM
      I learned that decades ago dave.

      I don't need to google it.

      a vapour is a gas
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:28:41 PM
      I suggest you stop answering stupid questions...I think we covered that when I was about 12

      Of course you did dave, of course you did.

      Is that rather like your son carrying out log calculations at the age of 9 ? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:29:43 PM
      a vapour is a gas

      So is oxygen dave at r.t.p. a gas or a vapour ?   8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:33:43 PM
      Of course you did dave, of course you did.

      is that rather like your son carrying out l;og calculation at the age of 9 ?

      I never said  he carried out a log calculation...I said he worked out the answer... I'm very precise with words..you are not
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:36:27 PM
      I never said  he carried out a log calculation...I said he worked out the answer... I'm very precise with words..you are not

      You can't do a calculation dave unless you understand the topic ?

      You and your son, both got it wrong.

      By the way, logs don't get taught until pupils reach AS level.  8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 23, 2015, 07:40:43 PM
      a vapour is a gas

      The bathroom in 5A was in the centre of the apartment between the bedrooms and had no outside access all its walls being interior ones.  Apartments 5A and 5B adjoined each other.  Where were the vents and ventilation for the bathrooms in both flats?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:41:09 PM
      You can't do a calculation dave unless you understand the topic ?

      You and your son, both got it wrong.

      By the way, logs don't get taught until pupils reach AS level.  8)-)))

      I never said he did any calculation...that's twice now...I said he worked out the answer...
      I made the post not to show off my sons prowess at maths but to show how easy it is to misunderstand a statement...you have proved the point
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 07:43:42 PM
      so...I find the alert to the flowerbed ridiculous...dogs smell by detecting airborne molecules.....these would surely have all dissipated in the wind and the rain during the three months
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 07:44:35 PM
      I never said he did any calculation...that's twice now...I said he worked out the answer...
      I made the post not to show off my sons prowess at maths but to show how easy it is to misunderstand a statement...you have proved the point

      More double dutch.

      You have proved nothing.

      How can he do a calculation he doesn't understand.

      When you do a calculation you get an answer, if of course you're capable.

      You both got the answer wrong.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 23, 2015, 07:56:17 PM
      More double dutch.

      You have proved nothing.

      How can he do a calculation he doesn't understand.

      When you do a calculation you get an answer, if of course you're capable.

      You both got the answer wrong.

      You are wrong.  I have done calculations I don't understand, and got the right answer.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 08:01:59 PM
      You are wrong.  I have done calculations I don't understand, and got the right answer.

      Really.

      What kind of calculations ?

      You would be following a method.

      davel and junior davel, both got the log calculation wrong.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:11:59 PM
      More double dutch.

      You have proved nothing.

      How can he do a calculation he doesn't understand.

      When you do a calculation you get an answer, if of course you're capable.

      You both got the answer wrong.

      its actually English...third time...he didn't do the calculation but he managed to work out the right answer...

      remember lateral thinking
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 08:16:28 PM
      its actually English...third time...he didn't do the calculation but he managed to work out the right answer...

      remember lateral thinking

      Nothing to do with lateral thinking at all.

      To get an answer you do a calculation, with or without the use of a calculator.

      You both got the answer wrong.

      So what does that say about you and your son's thinking ? &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:16:45 PM
      More double dutch.

      You have proved nothing.

      How can he do a calculation he doesn't understand.

      When you do a calculation you get an answer, if of course you're capable.

      You both got the answer wrong.

      what I've proved is how easy it is to misunderstand the written and spoken word...three times I have said he worked out the answer....yet you keep saying he would be unable to do the calculation...

      for the fourth time he worked out the answer but did not do the calculation...they do it on "A question of sport" all the time
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:18:38 PM
      Nothing to do with lateral thinking at all.

      To get an answer you do a calculation, with or without the use of a calculator.

      You both got the answer wrong.

      So what does that say about you and your son's thinking ? &%+((£

      for the fifth time...Jack worked out the answer but didn't do the calculation...think laterally
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 08:20:35 PM
      what I've proved is how easy it is to misunderstand the written and spoken word...three times I have said he worked out the answer....yet you keep saying he would be unable to do the calculation...

      for the fourth time he worked out the answer but did not do the calculation...they do it on "A question of sport" all the time

      The answer was wrong.

      End of story.

      Since when have log calculations  featured on a ''Question of Sport'' ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 08:21:10 PM
      for the fifth time...Jack worked out the answer but didn't do the calculation...think laterally

       @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:29:06 PM
      The answer was wrong.

      End of story.

      Since when have log calculations  featured on a ''Question of Sport'' ?

      if I told you the answer you would understand...as it is you are getting more and more confused

      he worked out the answer but did not do the calculation...it was  a childrens online game,,,,the correct answer opened the door
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:32:32 PM
      The answer was wrong.

      End of story.

      Since when have log calculations  featured on a ''Question of Sport'' ?

      the next question was even more difficult...the answer was 22...he worked that one out too...but it took a little longer
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:33:31 PM
      just tell me it's impossible Stephen...like the abduction is impossible
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 08:35:13 PM
      if I told you the answer you would understand...as it is you are getting more and more confused

      he worked out the answer but did not do the calculation...it was  a childrens online game,,,,the correct answer opened the door

      Sounds like Jackanory.  8(0(*

      The answer was wrong dave.

      log to the base 4 of (1/8) = -3/2.

      NOT -2/3.

      I hope that helps.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:37:48 PM
      Sounds like Jackanory.  8(0(*

      The answer was wrong dave.

      log to the base 4 of (1/8) = -3/2.

      NOT -2/3.

      I hope that helps.

      yes Stephen...it's been nearly 50 yrs since I did such  a calculation....but Jack worked out the answer himself
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 08:38:22 PM
      I just had a thought,   Grime says Eddie wouldn't alert to any edible pig products, such as pork,  pork chop,  bacon etc.    He used piglets not fit for human consumption,  by that I think he means they were decomposing piglets.  Yet he took a piece of pork drenched it in petrol,  burnt it, hid it,  and Eddie alerted to it.   Surely if you took say a pork chop drenched it in petrol, burnt it, hid it,  Eddie would alert to that too, it's all pork at the end of the day and I would think burnt pork would give off the same scent no matter what shape of food it started off in,  wouldn't it?

      I would expect the pork to be part of a decomposing piglet, otherwise Grime was training him to alert to normal pork. He wouldn't do that because it would mess up all his previous training. This type of training allowed Eddie to alert to such things as;

      The search of a suspect's 'totally burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence.
      A 'one minute' search by the EVRD identified a position in the rear passenger footwell where the dog alerted to the presence of human material.
      A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim's DNA.
      The enquiry then concentrated it's efforts on the suspect and the EVRD located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:38:36 PM
      just tell me it's impossible Stephen...like the abduction is impossible
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:40:16 PM
      I would expect the pork to be part of a decomposing piglet, otherwise Grime was training him to alert to normal pork. He wouldn't do that because it would mess up all his previous training. This type of training allowed Eddie to alert to such things as;

      The search of a suspect's 'totally burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence.
      A 'one minute' search by the EVRD identified a position in the rear passenger footwell where the dog alerted to the presence of human material.
      A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim's DNA.
      The enquiry then concentrated it's efforts on the suspect and the EVRD located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

      piglet twiglet...makes no difference...totally meaningless without forensic confirmation
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 08:42:48 PM
      yes Stephen...it's been nearly 50 yrs since I did such  a calculation....but Jack worked out the answer himself

      Ding dong.

      You both got it wrong. 8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 08:43:33 PM
      I know enough to realise that all of that is of little significance compared to wind a rain...the gas molecules would quickly dissipate....would you not agree

      I don't think wind and rain were a problem for Eddie;

      The dog will locate human cadaver in water either from the bank side or when

      deployed in a boat where a large area may be covered using a gridding system.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:44:38 PM
      Ding gong.

      You both got it wrong. 8(0(*

      no Jack got it right...then he got the next more difficult one right whose answer was 22...but that took a little longer
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:47:24 PM
      I don't think wind and rain were a problem for Eddie;

      The dog will locate human cadaver in water either from the bank side or when

      deployed in a boat where a large area may be covered using a gridding system.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

      the wind and the rain would be problem as they would dissipate the residual scent...in the case of a cadaver it would not be a problem as we are not dealing with residual scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 08:51:48 PM
      no Jack got it right...then he got the next more difficult one right whose answer was 22...but that took a little longer

      No dave.

      Log to the base 4 of (1/8) = - 1.5.

      Not -2/3.

      If it helps , just try   ( log 0.125 ) / ( log 4 ) = -3/2 or -1.5.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:54:19 PM
      No dave.

      Log to the base 4 of (1/8) = - 1.5.

      Not -2/3.

      If it helps , just try   ( log 0.125 ) / ( log 4 ) ?{)(**

      yes the answer was 4 and Jack got it right...is that the tenth time I've told you that
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 08:56:30 PM
      yes the answer was 4 and Jack got it right...is that the tenth time I've told you that



      but it's wrong dave.

      Try it on a calculator.


      THE ANSWER IS not  -2/3.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 08:59:10 PM
      No dave.

      Log to the base 4 of (1/8) = - 1.5.

      Not -2/3.

      If it helps , just try   ( log 0.125 ) / ( log 4 ) = -3/2 or -1.5.

      yes I did that when I was about 15...nearly 50 yrs ago...so it's a bit rusty now...like my eldest son could play both those two really fiddley bits in the middle of Fur Elise when he was 10...but he couldn't play them now...

      perhaps we could do 20 pages on my eldest son...more relevant really as he studied medicine at Leicester where Gerry lectured
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 09:01:44 PM



      but it's wrong dave.

      Try it on a calculator.


      THE ANSWER IS not  -2/3.

      oh you are confused... I misquoted the question slightly...didn't expect the Portuguese inquisition...nobody does...but the answer was x=4...and Jack worked it out
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 09:06:05 PM
      oh you are confused... I misquoted the question slightly...didn't expect the Portuguese inquisition...nobody does...but the answer was x=4...and Jack worked it out

      You didn't misquote.

      You and your son got it wrong.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 09:33:52 PM
      You didn't misquote.

      You and your son got it wrong.

      stop acting like a duck....the whole point is that Jack got the answer right...x=4...without doing the calculation...when I posed the question I put logx(I/8)=-2/3 instead of -3/2.....but jack worked it out
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 09:36:44 PM
      stop acting like a duck....the whole point is that Jack got the answer right...x=4...without doing the calculation...when I posed the question I put logx(I/8)=-2/3 instead of -3/2.....but jack worked it out

      9 year olds are not taught logs in schools.

      It's about time you stopped telling stories.

      You get caught out.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 09:39:25 PM
      That is a "D" in the thread title, not an "L"
      It says "Amaral and the Dogs"
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 09:39:49 PM
      9 year olds are not taught logs in schools.

      It's about time you stopped telling stories.

      You get caught out.

      he didn't need to understand logs to find the answer
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 09:41:53 PM
      That is a "D" in the thread title, not an "L"
      It says "Amaral and the Dogs"

      yes I know ..what I am pointing out is that things that might seem impossible may have a really simple explanation...I actually think that's extremely relevant
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 23, 2015, 09:47:09 PM
      he didn't need to understand logs to find the answer
      You don't need logarithms to do 1.416...+21.25
      Sometimes finding the answer is as easy as adding.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 09:49:21 PM
      You don't need logarithms to do 1.416...+21.25
      It's elementary decimal addition.

      at least its stopped Stephen quoting totally irrelevant chemistry for the last couple of hours
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 23, 2015, 09:51:25 PM
      the wind and the rain would be problem as they would dissipate the residual scent...in the case of a cadaver it would not be a problem as we are not dealing with residual scent

      Does it rain bleach in PdL? Even if it did it wouldn't affect cadaver scent.

      Cadaver scent
      cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces.
      The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but
      the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific
      compounds' and mixes.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 23, 2015, 09:53:09 PM
      at least its stopped Stephen quoting totally irrelevant chemistry for the last couple of hours

      You have plainly revealed you can do neither.

      You can play to your audience, but any one with a scrap of knowledge can see through you.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 23, 2015, 09:56:54 PM
      Does it rain bleach in PdL? Even if it did it wouldn't affect cadaver scent.

      Cadaver scent
      cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces.
      The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but
      the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific
      compounds' and mixes.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm


      good someone posting on topic...so how long does residual scent last...1 month...2 months ...3 months
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 23, 2015, 11:02:42 PM
      Why weren't the marked clothes tested for residue of any sort? If foul play was suspected, why did Amaral do nothing with the clothes?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 23, 2015, 11:07:45 PM
      these shrubs the dogs alerted to, the ones from which cuttings were analysed for traces of blood, isn't it likely that they were pruned by gardeners at some point between the beginning of May and mid-July?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 23, 2015, 11:47:00 PM
      these shrubs the dogs alerted to, the ones from which cuttings were analysed for traces of blood, isn't it likely that they were pruned by gardeners at some point between the beginning of May and mid-July?
      I feel sure that somewhere it says that the gardeners were in during the first days of the Mccann stay.   If anyone finds to the contrary pls let me know .


      Certainly in the images of the PJ etc at 5A immediately after Madeleine vanished, the shrubs look very newly cut back ... pruned.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 08:07:52 AM
      I would expect the pork to be part of a decomposing piglet, otherwise Grime was training him to alert to normal pork. He wouldn't do that because it would mess up all his previous training. This type of training allowed Eddie to alert to such things as;

      The search of a suspect's 'totally burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence.
      A 'one minute' search by the EVRD identified a position in the rear passenger footwell where the dog alerted to the presence of human material.
      A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim's DNA.
      The enquiry then concentrated it's efforts on the suspect and the EVRD located the body of the woman in a river bank deposition site.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

      Can you just clear something up in my mind Gunit.

      Eddie was trained using decomposed piglets.

      Eddie was trained using human bodies.

      Eddie alerts to cadaver scent.

      Eddie alerts to blood.

      Eddie alerted to blood from a person who was alive,  Gerry,  he also alerted to Grime's blood that he hid for Eddie to find.

      Grime said it was difficult for Eddie to discriminate between pork and human remains,   they are so alike.

      Eddie would not have forgotten his training with pigs.

      So it is possible that Eddie WOULD alert to a pork chop etc.   as Eddie alerted to blood from a person who was still alive,  therefore it wouldn't matter if the pork was decomposed or not,  Eddie wouldn't know the difference.

      If there was pig blood or bone in the garden compost,   Eddie would also alert to that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 24, 2015, 08:59:16 AM

      Insult time again?  Give it a rest.  There is absolutely no need for it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 08:59:45 AM


      Tell me where in the forensic reports it mentions that anything found belonged to Madeleine?

      No checks were made as to what Eddie was alerting to in the bedroom and the garden,  he could well have been alerting to the scent from the vegetation in the garden.

      Now tell me Stephen would Eddie have been able to distinguish the scent from blood of pig used in fertiliser and the smell of cadaver scent?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 09:05:58 AM
      Tell me where in the forensic reports it mentions that anything found belonged to Madeleine?

      No checks were made as to what Eddie was alerting to in the bedroom and the garden,  he could well have been alerting to the scent from the vegetation in the garden.

      Now tell me Stephen would Eddie have been able to distinguish the scent from blood of pig used in fertiliser and the smell of cadaver scent?

      You are completely obsessed with pigs.  %£&)**#


      Now in the samples collected, there were genetic markers, simply insufficient by Portuguese Law to say it was Madeleine.

      Now answer my question.

      Just tell me which samples of the material collected contained any non-human genetic material ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 09:17:53 AM
      Snipped from a report by Martin Grime read what it says at the end of this report.

       In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.


      So Martin Grime is saying he is unable to train the dog to distinguish between human and pig scent.    He has also said Eddie will alert to blood,   we know Eddie alerted to blood from live human beings himself and Gerry McCann there is blood in pig whether it is decayed or not,  Eddie would not be able to distinguish between the two.


           
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 09:24:08 AM
      With so many possible alert triggers on the list setting Eddie off, it`s a wonder any time was left to fit any handler expectation; unconscious cuing and good old Clever Hans into the investigation.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 09:24:41 AM
      Snipped from a report by Martin Grime read what it says at the end of this report.

       In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.


      So Martin Grime is saying he is unable to train the dog to distinguish between human and pig scent.    He has also said Eddie will alert to blood,   we know Eddie alerted to blood from live human beings himself and Gerry McCann there is blood in pig whether it is decayed or not,  Eddie would not be able to distinguish between the two.


         

      More cut and paste.

      Now just tell me which part of the forensic report showed the presence of pig remains ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 09:33:59 AM
      none of this matters...Grime is unable to confirm the dogs alerted to cadaver odour...it's that simple. When he does I will believe that is what the dogs alerted to
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 24, 2015, 09:35:16 AM
      More cut and paste.

      Now just tell me which part of the forensic report showed the presence of pig remains ?

      So if anyone provides a cite which involves cutting and pasting the pertinent part of a report - then you don't consider it worthy of anything other than a dismissive response - on the grounds that it has been cut and pasted?

      Bizarre.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 09:36:33 AM
      More cut and paste.

      Now just tell me which part of the forensic report showed the presence of pig remains ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 09:38:03 AM
      More cut and paste.

      Now just tell me which part of the forensic report showed the presence of pig remains ?

      first its copy and paste not cut and paste so you are wrong there
      second it's providing a cite which is something you should take note of
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 24, 2015, 09:42:01 AM
      first its copy and paste not cut and paste so you are wrong there
      second it's providing a cite which is something you should take note of

      Does it not say, "From a report by Martin Grime"?

      None of your old MSM rubbish then.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 09:45:26 AM
      first its copy and paste not cut and paste so you are wrong there
      second it's providing a cite which is something you should take note of
      You knew exactly what I meant.

      Now tell me dave, in the forensic report, where does it show that any of the organic material came from any pig residue ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 09:47:49 AM
      You knew exactly what I meant.

      Now tell me dave, in the forensic report, where does it show that any of the organic material came from any pig residue ?

      fortunately I do know what you meant...just pointing out you criticised others when you are wrong yourself.
      For the millionth time no one knows what eddie alerted to...even Grime doesn't know
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 10:00:59 AM
      fortunately I do know what you meant...just pointing out you criticised others when you are wrong yourself.
      For the millionth time no one knows what eddie alerted to...even Grime doesn't know

      What pig residue was found in the samples collected dave ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 10:07:25 AM
      What pig residue was found in the samples collected dave ?

      why are you asking me ..I've never mentioned pig residue
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 10:17:52 AM
      Snipped from a report by Martin Grime read what it says at the end of this report.

       In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.


      So Martin Grime is saying he is unable to train the dog to distinguish between human and pig scent.    He has also said Eddie will alert to blood,   we know Eddie alerted to blood from live human beings himself and Gerry McCann there is blood in pig whether it is decayed or not,  Eddie would not be able to distinguish between the two.


         

      Hmmmmm!

      This is from the enquiry into the Haut de La Garenne fiasco:

      DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him [Grimr]
      though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search
      coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks.
      Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the
      matter further.
      3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate.
      Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully
      employed. In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject
      Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement
      Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise
      Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
      operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
      investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
      evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay
      purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.

      3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER
      accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 10:21:35 AM
      More cut and paste.

      Now just tell me which part of the forensic report showed the presence of pig remains ?

      I can give you a link to this article if you want?

      You are still missing the point I am making.

      Eddie alerted in the bedroom after being called back numerous times,    he could have alerted to the scent from the garden where someone had walked it in,   especially as he also alerted when he was in the garden.

      The scent could have been from the fertiliser they use on the garden which may have contained pig blood or bones.

      Understand now?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 10:25:57 AM
      I really can't understand how Grime can  say Eddie will not alert to pork other than from decaying pigs,  when he says himself that they cannot be trained to distinguish between human and pig remains,   and also admits that Eddie will alert to blood even showing a video of himself hiding a sample of blood [from himself] for Eddie to find.

      Blood is in Pork fresh or decaying,   Eddie would not be able to distinguish between the blood in pork and the blood in humans fresh or decaying.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 10:38:46 AM


      It`s just the latest "on trend" idea causing a bit of excitement.......originating from the idea of pig based fertiliser possibly tracked about everywhere from the garden on shoes and paws.

      It`ll be rotting horse- dung from the road sprayed up around the hire car next.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 10:45:35 AM

      It`s just the latest "on trend" idea causing a bit of excitement.......originating from the idea of pig based fertiliser possibly tracked about everywhere from the garden on shoes and paws.

      It`ll be rotting horse- dung from the road sprayed up around the hire car next.

      Are you saying it could NOT have been pig based fertiliser that Eddie alerted to?   What did he alert to in the garden Carew?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 10:50:49 AM

      It`s just the latest "on trend" idea causing a bit of excitement.......originating from the idea of pig based fertiliser possibly tracked about everywhere from the garden on shoes and paws.

      It`ll be rotting horse- dung from the road sprayed up around the hire car next.

      Erm....this post hasn`t been edited by Eleanor in any way. Why say it has been?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 10:54:58 AM
      Are you saying it could NOT have been pig based fertiliser that Eddie alerted to?   What did he alert to in the garden Carew?

      Isn`t pig-residue of some sort the trending idea, as I posted, then?

      Any evidence to back the pig-based fertiliser ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 24, 2015, 11:04:27 AM

      good someone posting on topic...so how long does residual scent last...1 month...2 months ...3 months

      I thought you knew?
      Check out Matt Zarella's work looking for MIA's in Nam.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 24, 2015, 11:05:40 AM
      Quote for the week from Old Guys Rule.
      "The older I get the better I was"
       *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 11:13:40 AM
      I thought you knew?
      Check out Matt Zarella's work looking for MIA's in Nam.

      that isn't residual scent......
      I do have a good idea.........outside in wind a nd rain I can't see residual scent lasting 3 months
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 11:17:01 AM
      I really can't understand how Grime can  say Eddie will not alert to pork other than from decaying pigs,  when he says himself that they cannot be trained to distinguish between human and pig remains,   and also admits that Eddie will alert to blood even showing a video of himself hiding a sample of blood [from himself] for Eddie to find.

      Blood is in Pork fresh or decaying,   Eddie would not be able to distinguish between the blood in pork and the blood in humans fresh or decaying.

      Good point  8((()*/

      If thgey are so alike that he cannot distinguish between human and pig remains, Eddie would be likely to alert to fresh blood of pigs as he does to human fresh blood,
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 11:23:36 AM
      Good point  8((()*/

      If thgey are so alike that he cannot distinguish between human and pig remains, Eddie would be likely to alert to fresh blood of pigs as he does to human fresh blood,

      Let's try you sadie.

      What pig remains cooked or residues were found in the samples collected ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 11:35:39 AM
      Isn`t pig-residue of some sort the trending idea, as I posted, then?

      Any evidence to back the pig-based fertiliser ?

      I haven't a clue if the pig residue a trending idea Carew,   though it is something I have always wondered about.

      Unfortunately there is no evidence to back the pig based fertiliser as no soil was taken to be analysed.    I cannot imagine what else Eddie alerted to tin the garden though,   I find the idea that Madeleine had been hidden there a bit too far fetched.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 24, 2015, 11:45:58 AM
      Let's try you sadie.

      What pig remains cooked or residues were found in the samples collected ?

      Given that many of the samples actually collected required the use of LCN analysis to get any result at all, and according to the forensic reports the underlying material could not be identified, who knows what it was. 

      But please not let small details interfere with your diatribe.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 11:51:46 AM
      Given that many of the samples actually collected required the use of LCN analysis to get any result at all, and according to the forensic reports the underlying material could not be identified, who knows what it was. 

      But please not let small details interfere with your diatribe.

      Small details JP.

      It has become quite sad how mccann supporters have become deperately fixated with pigs.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 11:54:07 AM
      Small details JP.

      It has become quite sad how mccann supporters have become deperately fixated with pigs.

      Fixated with pigs.

      Very obviously the alert had nothing to do with Madeleine, and we're merely trying to wriggle Eddie off the hook of the charge that he made (yet another!) false alert ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 24, 2015, 11:59:56 AM

      good someone posting on topic...so how long does residual scent last...1 month...2 months ...3 months

      The examples below are referring to an undisturbed, unoccupied and not regularly cleaned, closed building.

      In normal circumstances I would be very surprised if scent lasted more than a couple of months(inside or out), but I could be wrong.
      ............................................................................

      Excerpt.
               What we have found so far is; residual scent will last 1 year in a building with minimum environmental influence, or human disturbance. Even after the objects where the scent source had been were removed, the dogs were able to locate the rooms, general area, or pinpoint where it had been.

      Excerpt.
      Since the original set up date on November 9, 1996, we have returned to the building 4 times: January 8, 1997, April 2, 1997, July 23, 1997 and December 7, 1997. On our visit in April we found that they had removed most of the original furniture and some boxes of trash, so the building had little left in it. Two of the objects (the ironing board and a box of trash), that had held scent sources were now missing.
      Excerpt.
      Room #18 - area where trash can had been - dogs all indicated
      area and showed pile of curtains now on floor but had been
      hanging above trash can originally. Curtains are porous and
      holding scent.

      Excerpt.
      Our next step in studying residual scent is to set up problems in different environments. We want to compare our results with problems set up in open areas, areas with sun and shade and no building to protect the scent.


      http://www.csst.org/residual_scent.html

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 12:03:06 PM
      The examples below are referring to an undisturbed, unoccupied and not regularly cleaned, closed building.

      In normal circumstances I would be very surprised if scent lasted more than a couple of months(inside or out), but I could be wrong.
      ............................................................................

      Excerpt.
               What we have found so far is; residual scent will last 1 year in a building with minimum environmental influence, or human disturbance. Even after the objects where the scent source had been were removed, the dogs were able to locate the rooms, general area, or pinpoint where it had been.

      Excerpt.
      Since the original set up date on November 9, 1996, we have returned to the building 4 times: January 8, 1997, April 2, 1997, July 23, 1997 and December 7, 1997. On our visit in April we found that they had removed most of the original furniture and some boxes of trash, so the building had little left in it. Two of the objects (the ironing board and a box of trash), that had held scent sources were now missing.
      Excerpt.
      Room #18 - area where trash can had been - dogs all indicated
      area and showed pile of curtains now on floor but had been
      hanging above trash can originally. Curtains are porous and
      holding scent.

      Excerpt.
      Our next step in studying residual scent is to set up problems in different environments. We want to compare our results with problems set up in open areas, areas with sun and shade and no building to protect the scent.


      http://www.csst.org/residual_scent.html

      this is why I have always questioned the alert in the flower bed....   if there was some sort of residue present then perhaps...but nothing was found...residual scent will not last that long outside with wind and raion
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 12:05:42 PM


      It's really very simple.

      Eddie could only detect a scent on cuddle-cat after it was hidden in a cupboard, not while he could play with it and pick it up.

      Eddie could only (apparently!) find a scent on clothing when it was transferred to a gym, not whilst the same clothing was present in the villa during that inspection.

      So the hypothesis that Eddie's (apparent) alert in the flower bed was actually a false alert is not unreasonable.

      But we are looking for (possible) triggers of an alert that might be within Eddie's (trained!) repetoire.

      Why do you have a problem with that?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 12:06:22 PM
      Given that many of the samples actually collected required the use of LCN analysis to get any result at all, and according to the forensic reports the underlying material could not be identified, who knows what it was.

      But please not let small details interfere with your diatribe.

      Was there any indication in the forensic reports to suggest that the "underlying material" could be other than human in origin?

      Is it from the forensic reports that the idea of pigs could have originated ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 24, 2015, 12:13:03 PM
      this is why I have always questioned the alert in the flower bed....   if there was some sort of residue present then perhaps...but nothing was found...residual scent will not last that long outside with wind and raion

      Residual scent (cadaver) 3 months on a plant outside?
       
      Well, it surely cant last too long as we would all be contaminated with it.

      People who deal with death as an occupation, sit on chairs that we then occupy. They send their clothing to the laundry that mixes with those of their colleagues.

      People who have died also have their clothing handled and relatives sometimes prefer to lay them out, after death, personally.

      Did you view a relatives body in the funeral parlour and touch their face? Then what did you touch?

      If you have ever been in a hospital bed. There is a fair chance that someone has died in it. If they supply you with a gown for theatre, it is likely that someone died in it. However I believe a lot of things are now disposable, but not these awful rubber mattresses or the bed sheets which also cover you when dead.

      If all that lasted 12 months everywhere would be contaminated with cadaver scent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 12:15:18 PM


      *snip*

      "There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however
       see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat
       foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response. "


      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 12:19:58 PM


      *snip*

      "There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however
       see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat
       foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response. "


      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      [/quote]

      Stephen keeps quoting the same thing over and over and it has nothing to do with what Sadie and myself are discussing.

      Strange you should say that about the waste bin,  as I remember seeing a video where Eddie DID  bark at something inside it.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 24, 2015, 12:26:15 PM
      Was there any indication in the forensic reports to suggest that the "underlying material" could be other than human in origin?

      Is it from the forensic reports that the idea of pigs could have originated ?

      Was simply exploring ideas as to reasons for the dog alerts.  Nothing that could have related to a cadaver was found at the sites.  And nothing was found and analysed that could show that Madeleine was dead.  So this line of enquiry would seem to be a dead end.

      The flower bed alerts could possibly have resulted from a fish, blood and bone type of fertiliser, where the dried blood component is a by product of slaughterhouses.  If Eddie alerts to dried blood, and to rotting rig, would he alert to dried pig blood?  I don't know the answer to that but it would seem to be logical.

       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 12:31:57 PM

      *snip*

      "There were no alert indications from the remaining properties. I did however
       see the dog search in the kitchen waste bins. These contained meat
       foodstuffs including pork and did not result in any false alert response. "


      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      The thing is Carew pig blood could  have been used in the fertiliser on the garden,   could be Eddie doesn't alert to cooked lamb chops etc. as the blood could have been cooked out or different when cooked who knows,  yet he alerted to a piece of pork that had been soaked in petrol and burnt.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 12:36:20 PM
      Was simply exploring ideas as to reasons for the dog alerts.  Nothing that could have related to a cadaver was found at the sites.  And nothing was found and analysed that could show that Madeleine was dead.  So this line of enquiry would seem to be a dead end.

      The flower bed alerts could possibly have resulted from a fish, blood and bone type of fertiliser, where the dried blood component is a by product of slaughterhouses.  If Eddie alerts to dried blood, and to rotting rig, would he alert to dried pig blood?  I don't know the answer to that but it would seem to be logical.

      Let`s hope no-one ever gets bumped off or disappears from a fertiliser factory, then.

      Seriously though, unless anything can be found and analysed to add weight to the explored ideas and with no "fertiliser alerts" from other sites searched they have no more value than the "cadaver of the missing person" idea.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 12:43:01 PM
      The thing is Carew pig blood could  have been used in the fertiliser on the garden,   could be Eddie doesn't alert to cooked lamb chops etc. as the blood could have been cooked out or different when cooked who knows,  yet he alerted to a piece of pork that had been soaked in petrol and burnt.

      Alerts all over the place could then have been possible since tracking through from the outside spaces/gardens would occur everywhere.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 24, 2015, 12:43:45 PM
      Good point  8((()*/

      If thgey are so alike that he cannot distinguish between human and pig remains, Eddie would be likely to alert to fresh blood of pigs as he does to human fresh blood,

      He could differentiate between human and animal blood and he was trained using mostly human cadaver odour.

      EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. But most of the time, however, the dog was trained using the odour of a human cadaver. Operationally, the dog has ignored large amounts of animal remains/bones when locating human decomposition.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      Dog's noses can tell the difference;

      The dog's olfactory system is so highly developed that it continues to be efficient at cellular level:
      Distinguish human blood from other species where the chemical constituent parts are identical.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 12:48:03 PM
      He could differentiate between human and animal blood and he was trained using mostly human cadaver odour.

      Simply not true ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 24, 2015, 12:50:02 PM
      He could differentiate between human and animal blood and he was trained using mostly human cadaver odour.

      Simply not true ...

      Cite?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 12:53:17 PM
      Cite?

      Dear [name deleted],

      With regard to your request in relation to:

      "1. Can you confirm that the cadaver dog "Eddie", formerly a police dog under
      dog handler and dog instructor Martin Grime, now retired from your force, was
      sent to America to be trained on human cadavers and be upgraded to "enhanced"
      victim recovery dog?

      2. Can you confirm that South Yorkshire Police uses, or has used, an American
      device for trapping scents, a "Scent Transfer Unit" or "STU100" in the
      training of its cadaver dogs?"

      RESPONSE

      1. South Yorkshire Police holds information which would tend to confirm this part of your request. This information is contained within the anual Personal Development Review of retired PC GRIME for the year 2005/2006 and states at various points,

      "(PC GRIMES) has deployed police dog 'Eddie' to train on human remains in the US. This training has been valuable as it is not possible to utilise human remains in the UK. A full report from the F.B.I. to document his training and operational deployments whilst in America remains pending"

      "Deployments have been on a national scale and a recent visit to the F.B.I. in America has created some income generation potential in terms of training."

      "Complete sponsored visit to FBI to educate on C.S.I. Dog capabilities - Achieved"

      2. From enquiries I have made it would appear that South Yorkshire Police have not deployed or used a device known as a 'Scent Transfer Unit' or 'STU100' within Force either operationally or for evaluation. However the Force does hold information that would indicate that Mr GRIME, whilst serving with this Force IN 2006, did utilise such a device whilst engageD in another Force area. A section of a statement apparently made but not signed by Mr GRIME reads: -

      " I developed the training of the E.V.R.D. to include the screening of scent pads taken from motor vehicles by a ST 100 Scent Tranference Unit.

      The unit is designed in a two main-part design. The main body is a battery operated electrical device that draws air in at to the front and exhausts through the rear. Ther is no 're-circulation' of air within the unit. The second main part is a 'grilled' hood that fits to the main body. A sterile gauze pad is fitted into the hood. When operated the ST 100 draws air through the hood and the sterile gauze pad and exhausts through ports to the rear. 'Scent' is trapped in the gauze, which may then be stored for use within scent discrimination exercises.

      The ST 100 unit is cleaned following use in such a manner that no residual scent is apparent. This is checked by control measures where the dog is allowed to search a given area where the S100 is secreted. Any response by the dog would suggest contamination. Tests have shown that the decontamination procedures are effective in this case with the dog NOT alerting to the device when completed.

      Use of the ST100 is recommended when subject vehicles, property, clothing, premises are to be forensically protected from contamination by the dog, and for covert deployment. At all other times best practice would be for the dog to be given direct access.

      Operational use of the STU 100 is in a developmental stage"

      If you are unhappy with the way your request for information has been handled, you can request a review by following the advice contained in the separate notice attached to this correspondence:

      If you remain dissatisfied with the handling of your request or complaint, you have a right to appeal to the Information Commissioner at:
      The Information Commissioner's Office,
      Wycliffe House,
      Water Lane,
      Wilmslow,
      Cheshire, SK9 5AF.
      Telephone: 08456 306060 or 01625 545745
      Website: www.ico.gov.uk
      There is no charge for making an appeal.

      Yours sincerely

      ___________________________


      The follow-up quetion:

      __________________________-

      Freedom of Information Request - Reference No:20110231

      REQUEST

      [Following a response to request 20110186]

      Can I ask, did that FBI report described as 'pending' turn up?

      RESPONSE

      SYP did not receive a report, therefore there is `no information held'.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 01:03:07 PM
      If you want further independent corroboration, take a look at contemporaneous reports of Grime's (proven and undisputed!) trip to the States in the New Year 2006.

      Two points to note: first, an absence (no reference to Eddie, then unknown outside police circles); second, the cited reason for the trip, so that Keela could assist the FBI in two murder enquiries ...

      By Karen McVeigh HER detective work is unsurpassed, her dedication to duty during some of Britain’s most challenging murder cases unfailing. Keela, a 16-month-old springer spaniel, has become such an asset to South Yorkshire Police that she now earns more than the chief constable. Her sense of smell, so keen that she can sniff traces of blood on weapons that have been scrubbed after attacks, has her so much in demand by forces up and down the country that she is hired out at £530 a day, plus expenses. Thought to be the only one of her kind, the crime scenes dog earns nearly £200,000 a year. Her daily rate, ten times that of ordinary police dogs, puts her on more than the chief constable, Meredydd Hughes, who picks up £129,963. Keela’s considerable talent in uncovering minute pieces of evidence that can later be confirmed by forensic tests has put her in the forefront of detective work across Britain. She was drafted in to help after the stabbing of the young mother, Abigail Witchalls, in Surrey, and has been involved in high- profile cases across 17 forces, from Devon and Cornwall to Strathclyde. She has already helped to apprehend a murderer after sniffing out blood on a knife. PC John Ellis, her handler, said that police sent for Keela when the scenes of crime squad failed to find what they were looking for. “She can detect minute quantities of blood that cannot be seen with the human eye,” he said. “She is used at scenes where someone has tried to clean it up. If blood has seeped into the tiles behind a bath where a body has been, she can find it.” The spaniel can sniff out blood in clothes after they have been washed repeatedly in biological washing powder, and can detect microscopic amounts on weapons that have been scrubbed and washed. When faced with a “clean” crime scene, Mr Ellis and PC Martin Grimes, Keela’s other handler, will first send in Frankie, a border collie, and Eddie, another springer spaniel, to pick up any general scent. Then they wheel in the big gun. “We take Keela in and she will find the minutest traces of blood,” Mr Ellis said. “It’s not like looking for a needle in a haystack any more. The other two dogs will find the haystack and Keela will find the needle.” While the other dogs bark, Keela has been trained to freeze and pinpoint the area with her nose. Mr Ellis said Keela’s “perfect temperament” and enthusiasm made her a great asset. “We thought we would get one or two deployments a year, but things have just snowballed. Obviously when we are called in by other forces they are charged a fee and it’s quite funny to think she can earn more than the chief constable.” Mr Hughes showed there were no hard feelings. The chief constable said: “Keela’s training gives the force an edge when it comes to forensic investigation which we should recognise and use more often.” Mr Ellis and Mr Grimes came up with a special training regime to focus on Keela’s remarkable skills. It has proved so successful that the FBI has inquired about it. “The FBI is very interested in how we work because they don’t have this sort of facility in-house and they are looking at setting up their own unit,” Mr Ellis said. Paul Ruffell, of K9 Solutions, a security firm specialising in dog units, said he was amazed at Keela’s abilities. “I’ve been working in this business for 25 years and I’ve never heard anything like it,” he said. - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2005/12/on-scent-of-success-sniffer-dog-keela-earns-more-than-her-chief-constable/#sthash.UEbKL21C.dpuf
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 24, 2015, 01:13:32 PM
      that isn't residual scent......
      I do have a good idea.........outside in wind a nd rain I can't see residual scent lasting 3 months

      Check all the documents.
      "You can't see" ?
      We are supposed to take that as an authoritative statement?
      It would seem merely to be another unsubstantiated opinion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 01:58:35 PM
      Check all the documents.
      "You can't see" ?
      We are supposed to take that as an authoritative statement?
      It would seem merely to be another unsubstantiated opinion.

      He has a lot of opinions. *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 02:09:25 PM
      He could differentiate between human and animal blood and he was trained using mostly human cadaver odour.

      EVRD used to be trained using swine (pigs) as their odour is the closest to that of humans. But most of the time, however, the dog was trained using the odour of a human cadaver. Operationally, the dog has ignored large amounts of animal remains/bones when locating human decomposition.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      Dog's noses can tell the difference;

      The dog's olfactory system is so highly developed that it continues to be efficient at cellular level:
      Distinguish human blood from other species where the chemical constituent parts are identical.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm


      Why does Grime say in a report I posted a snip of earlier that they can't train the dogs to distinguish between pig and human remains?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 02:13:06 PM
      G unit this is a snip of a report by Martin Grime

       In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.





           
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 02:29:25 PM
      G unit this is a snip of a report by Martin Grime

       In my role as advisor to the U.S. Justice Department I have facilitated assessment of numerous cadaver search dog teams in the United States. These dogs are exclusively trained using human cadaver sources. When I introduced decomposing pig cadavers into training assessments 100 % of the animals alerted to the medium. (The products were obtained from whole piglet cadaver not processed food for human consumption). The result from scientific experiments and research to date is suggestive that the scent of human and pig decomposing material is so similar that we are unable to 'train' the dog to distinguish between the two. That is not to say that this may not be possible in the future.





         

      Yes.

      Training in England (and in some States of America) is conducted using exclusively pig cadavers and pig cadaver scents.

      I don't think human blood, either, is used in the training of cadaver dogs.

      Clearly, if dogs could differentiate human cadaver scent from swine cadaver-scent, the pig would not be an effective training medium.

      Pigs are an effective training medium ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 02:38:08 PM
      Now once more, when did the forensic report stipulate the finding of ANY PIG RESIDUES ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 24, 2015, 02:41:37 PM
      Eddie was initially trained on decomposing piglets. He was enhanced by being trained on human decomposing renains. so he was trained on both. He also alerted to human blood. He had years of experience too, which is invaluable whether you are a dog or a human. He knew what he was looking for.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 02:44:00 PM
      Now once more, when did the forensic report stipulate the finding of ANY PIG RESIDUES ?

      It's really very simple.

      Either Eddie alerted to some pig-based product (within his trained repertoire) or he alerted falsely.

      Which?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 02:46:29 PM
      It's really very simple.

      Either Eddie alerted to some pig-based product (within his trained repertoire) or he alerted falsely.

      Which?

      and what of human traces ferryman ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 02:48:29 PM
      Eddie was initially trained on decomposing piglets. He was enhanced by being trained on human decomposing renains. so he was trained on both. He also alerted to human blood. He had years of experience too, which is invaluable whether you are a dog or a human. He knew what he was looking for.

      Eddie was never trained on human decomposing remains.

      Why do you keep repeating that lie?

      Eddie's first encounter with actual human remains was as a trained dog on police deployments.

      The moot question is whether dogs actually trained on human remains would react to swine cadaver scent.

      My hunch is they would.

      But I can't prove that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 02:49:27 PM
      and what of human traces ferryman ?

      There were none in the flower-bed of apartment 5a PdL
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 02:52:20 PM
      There were none in the flower-bed of apartment 5a PdL

      However, you and others claim pig residues would give the same reaction.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 02:54:12 PM
      However, you and others claim pig residues would give the same reaction.

      It seems plausible ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 02:59:04 PM
      It seems plausible ....
      '
      It is plausible, that there was an alert to 'human residue', but the samples  tested from the flower bed did not contain any.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 03:01:45 PM
      '
      It is plausible, that there was an alert to 'human residue', but the samples  tested from the flower bed did not contain any.

      Carefully weighing that alert in the context of the whole of the rest of the investigation, I would say, no ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 03:04:05 PM
      Carefully weighing that alert in the context of the whole of the rest of the investigation, I would say, no ...

      Why ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 03:09:55 PM
      Why ?

      Explained, repeatedly, over and over.

      Cuddle-cat.  An error of omission?  Or an error of commission?

      Clothes, not alerted to in the villa, then alerted to in the gym.

      Which error?

      Omission?

      Or Commission?

      (As observed by PJ Inspector Dias) spots passed without reaction, then returned to and eventually with reaction.

      Errors of omission? Or Commission?

      It was noted in the Haut de la Garenne enquiry that the dog was probably not very good.

      I think the dog was just not well handled (in both enquiries).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 03:17:43 PM
      and what is your opinion worth as a googler ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 03:19:04 PM
      and what is your opinion worth as a googler ?

      Google throws up interesting and pertinent stuff, as I believe I (and others!) have demonstrated.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 03:22:20 PM
      Google throws up interesting and pertinent stuff, as I believe I (and others!) have demonstrated.

      NOT QUITE.

      You select what suits your agenda, AND THAT IS WELL KNOWN.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 03:24:09 PM
      NOT QUITE.

      You select what suits your agenda, AND THAT IS WELL KNOWN.

      And you don't, I suppose?

      ETA:

      This is  a better link (than the one I gave earlier) to Grime's trip to America in 2006.

      It brings out the cited reason for the trip:

      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 03:52:09 PM
      A picture of Eddie which should be a big clue that he did not alert to the scent of fish alive or dead.
      http://i.imgur.com/vldy8zT.jpg?1-EVRD-Eddie-UK_Justice_Forum
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 04:14:22 PM
      A picture of Eddie which should be a big clue that he did not alert to the scent of fish alive or dead.
      http://i.imgur.com/vldy8zT.jpg?1-EVRD-Eddie-UK_Justice_Forum

      His leg fur is very wet but his mouth is empty. Perhaps he swallowed the evidence.
      Nice promotional picture for the outdoor pursuits apparel company!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 04:20:52 PM
      In the video of the dogs if you look in the wardrobe where the blue tennis bag is you might see half a pound of pork sausages
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 04:30:17 PM
      In the video of the dogs if you look in the wardrobe where the blue tennis bag is you might see half a pound of pork sausages

      Did you enjoy then with a bottle of chianti ? *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 04:36:16 PM
      Did you enjoy then with a bottle of chianti ? *&*%£

      Sausages and Chianti ... Oh dear...what appalling taste
      If I was going to drink Italian red it would be Barolo
      But much prefer South American
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 04:39:44 PM
      Eddie was initially trained on decomposing piglets. He was enhanced by being trained on human decomposing renains. so he was trained on both. He also alerted to human blood. He had years of experience too, which is invaluable whether you are a dog or a human. He knew what he was looking for.
      So, if you accept that he alerted to both pig and to human remains how the jiggery did Martin Grime communicate to Eddie to only alert to human cadaver scent when in PdL?  Or was he initially trained to alert to pigs and then trained not to alert to pigs, and if so - how is that communicated via the handler?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 04:43:00 PM
      Alerts all over the place could then have been possible since tracking through from the outside spaces/gardens would occur everywhere.
      No, because the dogs have to be primed by the handler to commence work mode, if not then presumably they would both be alerting all over the place anyway, unless you believe we live in a completely sterile world in which no drop of blood ever gets spilt anywhere.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 04:56:44 PM
      Sausages and Chianti ... Oh dear...what appalling taste
      If I was going to drink Italian red it would be Barolo
      But much prefer South American

      We thought you wouldn't get the joke.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 05:04:18 PM
      His leg fur is very wet but his mouth is empty. Perhaps he swallowed the evidence.
      Nice promotional picture for the outdoor pursuits apparel company!


                                          @)(++(*

      Of course, the other point is that all working dogs alert only when given a signal by their instructor/owner that they are to be in work mode ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 05:05:55 PM
      No, because the dogs have to be primed by the handler to commence work mode, if not then presumably they would both be alerting all over the place anyway, unless you believe we live in a completely sterile world in which no drop of blood ever gets spilt anywhere.

      Yes .....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 05:08:15 PM

                                          @)(++(*

      Of course, the other point is that all working dogs alert only when given a signal by their instructor/owner that they are to be in work mode ...

      A clothing model would be very upset to be told that posing for the camera wasn't being in work mode.....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 05:13:26 PM
      A clothing model would be very upset to be told that posing for the camera wasn't being in work mode.....

      No wonder poor Eddie was confused ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 05:18:22 PM

                                          @)(++(*

      Of course, the other point is that all working dogs alert only when given a signal by their instructor/owner that they are to be in work mode ...


      Have you lot thought about forming a Porkie Appreciation  Club ?  *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 24, 2015, 05:33:38 PM

      Have you lot thought about forming a Porkie Appreciation  Club ?  *&*%£


      Why all the sneering?

      As it is Martin Grime himself who brought up the fact that the dogs can't distinguish between pigmeat and human remains - I don't understand why sceptics are so quick to dismiss the subject.   

       He obviously thought it was an important point to make when it came to discussing/explaining how the dogs operate - so what's wrong with posters here discussing it too - and why do you have such a problem with that?   


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2015, 05:34:06 PM
      His leg fur is very wet but his mouth is empty. Perhaps he swallowed the evidence.
      Nice promotional picture for the outdoor pursuits apparel company!

      Is that the Brand name of a company, Misty?

      I thought it was Keela's very own wet suit ... but it isn't hers ... she's advertising ??? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: John on August 24, 2015, 05:34:23 PM
      Are we any nearer to a conclusion on this thread with nearly four thousand posts?

      Were the dogs a waste of time and money?

      Did Gonçalo Amaral understand the findings?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 05:42:17 PM

      Why all the sneering?

      As it is Martin Grime himself who brought up the fact that the dogs can't distinguish between pigmeat and human remains - I don't understand why sceptics are so quick to dismiss the subject.   

       He obviously thought it was an important point to make when it came to discussing/explaining how the dogs operate - so what's wrong with posters here discussing it too - and why do you have such a problem with that?

      Mccann supporters repeatedly ridicule and attack Amaral.

      Do you object to that ?

      Meanwhile where has this obsession with pigs led to....

      NOWHERE.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2015, 05:44:01 PM
      Are we any nearer to a conclusion on this thread with nearly four thousand posts?

      Were the dogs a waste of time and money?

      Did Gonçalo Amaral understand the findings?

      I think if Mr Amaral did not understand the findings it is proof that he is a very stupid man indeed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 05:44:50 PM
      Carefully weighing that alert in the context of the whole of the rest of the investigation, I would say, no ...

      Carefully cherry- picked by a non-expert, perhaps
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 05:46:53 PM
      Are we any nearer to a conclusion on this thread with nearly four thousand posts?

      Were the dogs a waste of time and money?

      Did Gonçalo Amaral understand the findings?
      IMO - Goncalo either didn't understand or chose not to understand the dog alerts, same as most "sceptics" to this day.  Bringing in dogs should have been a worthwhile exercise but there are many questions about the manner in which they were deployed.  At the end of the day, and as Davel keeps stating, the alerts mean nothing without corroborating evidence and IMO are a complete irrelevance to the current investigation.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 24, 2015, 05:47:41 PM
      Are we any nearer to a conclusion on this thread with nearly four thousand posts?

      Were the dogs a waste of time and money?

      Did Gonçalo Amaral understand the findings?

      If you check out one of ferryman's links the MSM thought the dogs were the greatest thing since sliced bread waxing lyrical about their abilities and contributions in 2005/6. Since they went to Portugal in 2007 things have never been quite the same ...... &%+((£
      According to the archiving process the McCanns were made arguido(a) not just on the strength of the dogs alerts so .................... &%+((£

      It does not answer your question but is interesting!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 24, 2015, 05:48:57 PM
      It took me a minute or ten to understand what was going on.  But Amaral had all of the advice in the world available to him.  He just didn't bother to use it, so he obviously didn't want to understand.

      Yes, in hindsight the dogs were a waste of time and money.  There was no body to find.  That's it really.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 05:51:17 PM
      "And with that, the discussion about the dogs drew to a close, the subject never again raising its head on the Madeleine McCann forum..."


      NOT!!!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 05:55:28 PM
      Are we any nearer to a conclusion on this thread with nearly four thousand posts?

      Were the dogs a waste of time and money?

      Did Gonçalo Amaral understand the findings?

      The GNR dogs were of the wrong discipline for the search required, but well handled.

      Literally no one's fault.

      Grime's dogs might have been useful if deployed the way Harrison wished them to be deployed.

      But Grime (largely) ignored Harrison, did his own thing, and prepared for an undertaking of an entirely different discipline, with another dog and in a different continent. 

      The McCanns paid the price for that reckless and cavalier approach ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 24, 2015, 05:57:55 PM
      I think if Mr Amaral did not understand the findings it is proof that he is a very stupid man indeed.

      Or very clever as he managed to blag not only his superiors but the ruling magistrate too.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: John on August 24, 2015, 05:58:21 PM
      One fact stands out above all else in relation to the deployment of the cadaver and csi dogs and that is that they were brought in to find evidence that Madeleine had died in apartment 5a with the hope that her remains might be found.  In this the British and Portuguese police were equally complicit.

      My own view is that they were far too late in bringing in these dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2015, 05:58:58 PM
      Can someone explain to me why if the McCann's innocence was all in Amaral's imagination why the continued to bear guides for over ten months after Rebelo took over the investigation ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 06:00:55 PM
      Can someone explain to me why if the McCann's innocence was all in Amaral's imagination why the continued to bear guides for over ten months after Rebelo took over the investigation ?

      Can someone translate the above post into intelligible English?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2015, 06:04:26 PM
      Can someone translate the above post into intelligible English?

      Took me a minute to figure out what the bears had to do with it too.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2015, 06:06:00 PM
      Can someone translate the above post into intelligible English?


      Predictor text eh !! That should be arguidos.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 06:08:40 PM
      Eddie was initially trained on decomposing piglets. He was enhanced by being trained on human decomposing renains. so he was trained on both. He also alerted to human blood. He had years of experience too, which is invaluable whether you are a dog or a human. He knew what he was looking for.

      Yes he was,  but he also alerted to the blood from a person who was not dead.

      So if Eddie couldn't tell the difference between pig meat and human then it is possible Eddie alerted to the smell of pig blood that could have been in fertiliser.

      Grime said they were unable to train the dogs to tell the difference between pig and human remains,  so how could he call Eddie 'Enhanced'.   Sorry he contradicts himself.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2015, 06:10:06 PM
      One fact stands out above all else in relation to the deployment of the cadaver and csi dogs and that is that they were brought in to find evidence that Madeleine had died in apartment 5a with the hope that her remains might be found.  In this the British and Portuguese police were equally complicit.

      My own view is that they were far too late in bringing in these dogs.

      I don't think the senior echelons of Leicestershire Police covered themselves in glory when one takes Leveson testimony into consideration.

      I agree the dogs should have been deployed right at the beginning, apparently they were on stand by for it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 06:12:10 PM
      Can someone explain to me why if the McCann's innocence was all in Amaral's imagination why the continued to bear guides for over ten months after Rebelo took over the investigation ?

      Step away from the keyboard
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 06:14:04 PM
      Is that the Brand name of a company, Misty?

      I thought it was Keela's very own wet suit ... but it isn't hers ... she's advertising ???

      Keela International,  Brietta. You can see he company logo beside the name.
      It's Eddie wearing the jacket according to the link Pegasus provided for the photo.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 06:14:52 PM
      No, because the dogs have to be primed by the handler to commence work mode, if not then presumably they would both be alerting all over the place anyway, unless you believe we live in a completely sterile world in which no drop of blood ever gets spilt anywhere.

      Yes, because when "work-mode" has commenced, the pig blood contaminants and other alert triggers put forward as possibilities  ........and to which apparently Eddie cannot be "unlearned" and allegedly will alert to......... are still there, aren`t they?





      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 06:17:05 PM
      IMO - Goncalo either didn't understand or chose not to understand the dog alerts, same as most "sceptics" to this day.  Bringing in dogs should have been a worthwhile exercise but there are many questions about the manner in which they were deployed.  At the end of the day, and as Davel keeps stating, the alerts mean nothing without corroborating evidence and IMO are a complete irrelevance to the current investigation.

      Is that rather like the mccann supporters believing in 'pig scent' ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 06:18:48 PM
      One fact stands out above all else in relation to the deployment of the cadaver and csi dogs and that is that they were brought in to find evidence that Madeleine had died in apartment 5a with the hope that her remains might be found.  In this the British and Portuguese police were equally complicit.

      My own view is that they were far too late in bringing in these dogs.

      Not sure about with the hope.

      You don't, ever, hope to find the body of a child, do you?

      But certainly, the PJ determined that the enquiry (from the point of the arrival of input from the UK) should be a murder enquiry, and yes, the dogs of Grime were brought in to look for evidence of death, and also to search for a body.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 06:20:39 PM
      Not sure about with the hope.

      You don't, ever, hope to find the body of a child, do you?

      But certainly, the PJ determined that the enquiry (from the point of the arrival of input from the UK) should be a murder enquiry, and yes, the dogs of Grime were brought in to look for evidence of death, and also to search for a body.

      Since they found no evidence of abduction.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 24, 2015, 06:21:44 PM
      When exactly did Eddie become an Enhanced VRD?  I can't see South Yorkshire Police bestowing that title.  Or deploying him as such.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 06:24:15 PM
      Stephen: Give it a rest.

      And Eleanor: Grime bestowed the "Enhanced" title on Eddie after he returned from his (largely unsuccessful) trip to America in the New Year 2006.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2015, 06:24:59 PM
      Keela International,  Brietta. You can see he company logo beside the name.
      It's Eddie wearing the jacket according to the link Pegasus provided for the photo.

      There is a photograph of  Eddie and  Mr Grime where he is wearing a Keela jacket.  There is also a photograph of similarly clad handlers with their dogs in the company brochure.  Some kind of sponsorship arrangement, I think.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2015, 06:26:46 PM
      Yes, because when "work-mode" has commenced, the pig blood contaminants and other alert triggers put forward as possibilities  ........and to which apparently Eddie cannot be "unlearned" and allegedly will alert to......... are still there, aren`t they?

                           Wow ... something is germinating somewhere ... keep it up.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 06:28:09 PM
                           Wow ... something is germinating somewhere ... keep it up.

      I think you have missed the point, possibly in your haste to get in a put-down attempt ....(failed).

      My response relates to this post by Alfred R Jones

      "No, because the dogs have to be primed by the handler to commence work mode, if not then presumably they would both be alerting all over the place anyway, unless you believe we live in a completely sterile world in which no drop of blood ever gets spilt anywhere."
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 06:31:37 PM
      Can someone explain to me why if the McCann's innocence was all in Amaral's imagination why the continued to bear guides for over ten months after Rebelo took over the investigation ?
      Did you mean to say "why they continued to be arguidos for over ten months after Rebelo took over the investigation..."  Well you could ask the same question about Murat, who ceased to be an arguido at the same time as the McCanns.  Do you think this is evidence that he is somehow complicit?  Also, what of the current arguidos? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 06:36:33 PM
      Stephen: Give it a rest.

      And Eleanor: Grime bestowed the "Enhanced" title on Eddie after he returned from his (largely unsuccessful) trip to America in the New Year 2006.

      Take your own advice.

      It's more than time you did.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 06:39:23 PM
      Yes, because when "work-mode" has commenced, the pig blood contaminants and other alert triggers put forward as possibilities  ........and to which apparently Eddie cannot be "unlearned" and allegedly will alert to......... are still there, aren`t they?
      Who knows, it's a mystery isn't it?  We KNOW Eddie alerts to dried human blood (see sex tissue alert and Martin Grime's own acknowledgement of that fact) and yet apparently he didn't alert anywhere else except to the McCanns property and possessions.  Obviously if Eddie did not alert to dried blood there would be no need to send Keela in after him in order to 'explain' some of his alerts.
      Do you not find it all even a teensy bit inexplicable?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 06:40:02 PM
      Did you mean to say "why they continued to be arguidos for over ten months after Rebelo took over the investigation..."  Well you could ask the same question about Murat, who ceased to be an arguido at the same time as the McCanns.  Do you think this is evidence that he is somehow complicit?  Also, what of the current arguidos?

      Thank you Alfred.

      At least for me, you have unscrambled Faith's intended meaning, which remained opaque until I read your post ...

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2015, 06:54:13 PM
      Did you mean to say "why they continued to be arguidos for over ten months after Rebelo took over the investigation..."  Well you could ask the same question about Murat, who ceased to be an arguido at the same time as the McCanns.  Do you think this is evidence that he is somehow complicit?  Also, what of the current arguidos?

      Was Murat or anyone connected to him questioned under the letters rogatory ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 07:01:23 PM
      Was Murat or anyone connected to him questioned under the letters rogatory ?

      No
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2015, 07:12:10 PM
      No

      Yet the McCann's friends were. I think that says everything about Rebelo's thinking at the time.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 07:14:02 PM
      Who knows, it's a mystery isn't it?  We KNOW Eddie alerts to dried human blood (see sex tissue alert and Martin Grime's own acknowledgement of that fact) and yet apparently he didn't alert anywhere else except to the McCanns property and possessions.  Obviously if Eddie did not alert to dried blood there would be no need to send Keela in after him in order to 'explain' some of his alerts.
      Do you not find it all even a teensy bit inexplicable?

      Yet Eddie cannot detect minute traces of blood in the same fashion as Keela, so which comes first - the cadaver or the blood?
      Ant one of those other nine vehicles could have contained minute blood traces of a living, findable Madeleine but Keela couldn't check simply because Eddie didn't bark.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 07:14:37 PM
      Is that rather like the mccann supporters believing in 'pig scent' ?

      Pig scent as you call it is what Eddie was trained on to start with.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 24, 2015, 07:16:11 PM
      Yet the McCann's friends were. I think that says everything about Rebelo's thinking at the time.

      Murat and associates were in Portugal.  No need for Rogatory Letters.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 24, 2015, 07:18:00 PM
      Are we any nearer to a conclusion on this thread with nearly four thousand posts?

      Were the dogs a waste of time and money?

      Did Gonçalo Amaral understand the findings?
      How long did Amaral get to understand the dogs and their findings?

      How long has this forum had?

      Is there any agreement after 4,000 posts and now 8.5 years into the case?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 07:18:05 PM
      Yet the McCann's friends were. I think that says everything about Rebelo's thinking at the time.
      What does it say about Rebelo's thinking at the time?  Did he think their friends were in on it then?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 07:20:01 PM
      Yet the McCann's friends were. I think that says everything about Rebelo's thinking at the time.

      One or two anomalies.  It's always struck me as anomalous that Mrs Fenn (as the person closest to the scene of the crime at the time it was committed) was never interviewed by Rogatory.

      Perhaps she was asked but declined.

      Perhaps others were asked but also declined.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 24, 2015, 07:20:20 PM
      It makes me feel quite sad that Amaral based his theory solely on the alerts of the dogs.   The one behind the sofa was probably a speck of blood [not Madeleine's]   there was nothing on the curtains nothing on the wall.   Eddie alerted to the bedroom, to what is unknown and to the garden again unknown and neither alert was investigated enough to get to the bottom of them.   Then Eddie alerted to the car to what who knows again as the sample from the car showed DNA from three people maybe as many as five.   The idea that the McCann's put a frozen Madeleine in the car is ludicrous to the extreme,   but still all these alerts are being used as evidence against the McCann's and Madeleine is still missing    8(8-))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 07:22:37 PM
      Yet Eddie cannot detect minute traces of blood in the same fashion as Keela, so which comes first - the cadaver or the blood?
      Ant one of those other nine vehicles could have contained minute blood traces of a living, findable Madeleine but Keela couldn't check simply because Eddie didn't bark.
      So at what point is Eddie unable to detect blood?  How minute does the speck have to be before he can't detect it?  Rhetorical question.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 07:30:08 PM
      So at what point is Eddie unable to detect blood?  How minute does the speck have to be before he can't detect it?  Rhetorical question.

      Eddie could, apparently, detect blood in pretty small traces:

      A missing person, last seen returning from church, on foot, in N. Ireland.
      A missing person search did not reveal her whereabouts.
      The search of a suspect's 'totally burnt out vehicle' by forensic scientists did not reveal any evidence.
      A 'one minute' search by the EVRD identified a position in the rear passenger footwell where the dog alerted to the presence of human material.
      A sample was taken and when analysed revealed the victim's DNA.


      (Martin Grime)

      Keela's advantage was, supposedly, that she could "point" (with her nose)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 07:30:21 PM
      Pig scent as you call it is what Eddie was trained on to start with.
       


      .........and ?

      Mobius Loop time.

      Read my earlier replies.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 07:30:47 PM
      How long did Amaral get to understand the dogs and their findings?

      How long has this forum had?

      Is there any agreement after 4,000 posts and now 8.5 years into the case?

      It was clear early on by grime and Harrison that the alerts had no evidential value
      Yet amaral saw them as proof.....  Can't you see anything wrong there
      The fact that after 8 hrs the sceptics on the forum do not understand the truth is neither here nor there
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 24, 2015, 07:31:19 PM
      It makes me feel quite sad that Amaral based his theory solely on the alerts of the dogs.   The one behind the sofa was probably a speck of blood [not Madeleine's]   there was nothing on the curtains nothing on the wall.   Eddie alerted to the bedroom, to what is unknown and to the garden again unknown and neither alert was investigated enough to get to the bottom of them.   Then Eddie alerted to the car to what who knows again as the sample from the car showed DNA from three people maybe as many as five.   The idea that the McCann's put a frozen Madeleine in the car is ludicrous to the extreme,   but still all these alerts are being used as evidence against the McCann's and Madeleine is still missing    8(8-))

      What else is there to base a theory on?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 24, 2015, 07:31:36 PM
      Are we any nearer to a conclusion on this thread with nearly four thousand posts?

      Were the dogs a waste of time and money?

      Did Gonçalo Amaral understand the findings?

      Yes and no to the first point, IMO. The dogs may have been more useful back in mid-May 2007, and without this "anecdotal evidence" of where a body may perhaps, potentially, have eventually once been as that seems to have been over-rated.

      Re the second point: have we ever established any findings that Amaral & co understood?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 07:38:55 PM
      One or two anomalies.  It's always struck me as anomalous that Mrs Fenn (as the person closest to the scene of the crime at the time it was committed) was never interviewed by Rogatory.

      Perhaps she was asked but declined.

      Perhaps others were asked but also declined.
      But she was a resident of Portugal, therefore no international rogatory letter would have been required.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 24, 2015, 07:41:57 PM
      Can someone explain to me why if the McCann's innocence was all in Amaral's imagination why the continued to bear guides for over ten months after Rebelo took over the investigation ?

      LOL

      I'm not quite sure what "bear guides" might be.

      If you meant why the McCanns continued to be arguidos (as did Murat, whom you forgot), it's because in the Portuguese system arguido status remains in place until the end of the investigative phase. If charges are brought at the end of that time, those charged retain arguido status for the next phases. It becomes extinct for those not charged or if the case is shelved.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 07:42:28 PM
      But she was a resident of Portugal, therefore no international rogatory letter would have been required.

      OK

      But she was never interviewed a second time.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 07:58:35 PM
      How long did Amaral get to understand the dogs and their findings?

      How long has this forum had?

      Is there any agreement after 4,000 posts and now 8.5 years into the case?

      A further point, there, Shining, is that Amaral, apparently, felt he understood forensics well enough to contradict and correct Stuart Prior on interpretation of the forensics.

      Of course, we can't judge that because we don't see Stuart Prior's report.

      But Amaral was certainly surrounded by people who did understand the forensics and who would willingly have explained them to him if he'd asked.  But (again, according to his book) he had British personnel put under secret surveillance, because he didn't trust them ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2015, 07:59:48 PM
      Murat and associates were in Portugal.  No need for Rogatory Letters.

      So was he questioned again by Rebelo ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 24, 2015, 07:59:58 PM
      Was Murat or anyone connected to him questioned under the letters rogatory ?

      If Rebelo had wanted to question Murat or his mother again, why would that have required a rogatory letter to the UK, when they were both resident in Portugal?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 08:02:11 PM
      Who knows, it's a mystery isn't it?  We KNOW Eddie alerts to dried human blood (see sex tissue alert and Martin Grime's own acknowledgement of that fact) and yet apparently he didn't alert anywhere else except to the McCanns property and possessions.  Obviously if Eddie did not alert to dried blood there would be no need to send Keela in after him in order to 'explain' some of his alerts.
      Do you not find it all even a teensy bit inexplicable?

      What I find rather more than a teensy bit inexplicable is posters, whilst believing and maintaining that Eddie cannot be "unlearned," .........(so the work or play mode can`t apply, ).........from alerting to an almost unlimited number of contaminants tracked about and deposited just about everywhere;   never-the-less manage to reconcile it with the fact that he didn`t do so.

      They still bang on about how many substances Eddie would alert to.

      As to your point about Keela`s role...........Wasn`t she sent in following an alert by Eddie in order to pinpoint any actual forensic sample which could lead to the identification of the person to whom it belongs?

      ..........with those results turning out to be inconclusive.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 24, 2015, 08:03:52 PM
      One or two anomalies.  It's always struck me as anomalous that Mrs Fenn (as the person closest to the scene of the crime at the time it was committed) was never interviewed by Rogatory.

      Perhaps she was asked but declined.

      Perhaps others were asked but also declined.

      Then the correspondence around the request would be in the files as it was with the reconstitution.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 24, 2015, 08:08:08 PM
      So was he questioned again by Rebelo ?

      Were Kate and Gerry?

      Actually, not much point.  They didn't have to answer questions, any of them.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 24, 2015, 08:09:08 PM
      One or two anomalies.  It's always struck me as anomalous that Mrs Fenn (as the person closest to the scene of the crime at the time it was committed) was never interviewed by Rogatory.

      Perhaps she was asked but declined.

      Perhaps others were asked but also declined.

      Mrs Fenn was resident in Portugal, wasn't she?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 24, 2015, 08:11:42 PM
      OK

      But she was never interviewed a second time.

      It wasn't until after the press had brought her up in the press that she was interviewed at all (unless an early interview is missing from the files).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2015, 08:18:16 PM
      How long did Amaral get to understand the dogs and their findings?

      How long has this forum had?

      Is there any agreement after 4,000 posts and now 8.5 years into the case?

      The obfuscation eight years down the line is entirely due to Mr Amaral's interpretation or misinterpretation ... understanding of misunderstanding.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 08:24:51 PM
      The obfuscation eight years down the line is entirely due to Mr Amaral's interpretation or misinterpretation ... understanding of misunderstanding.

      Erm .... YES!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 08:27:16 PM
      It wasn't until after the press had brought her up in the press that she was interviewed at all (unless an early interview is missing from the files).

      Yes.  Several months after the crime.

      That was very lax.

      But by Inspector Carlos, for whom I have a genuinely high regard.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 24, 2015, 08:31:43 PM
      A further point, there, Shining, is that Amaral, apparently, felt he understood forensics well enough to contradict and correct Stuart Prior on interpretation of the forensics.

      Of course, we can't judge that because we don't see Stuart Prior's report.

      But Amaral was certainly surrounded by people who did understand the forensics and who would willingly have explained them to him if he'd asked.  But (again, according to his book) he had British personnel put under secret surveillance, because he didn't trust them ....


      Lowe's email was trying to be helpful by explaining the basics of DNA.

      A point that appears to have been studiously ignored by some is that Corte Real is interviewed in his "documentary"... and AGREES with Lowe.

      Amaral could have faxed what he'd got from Lowe via Prior to Corte Real and simply picked up the phone and ASKED him for his opinion, instead of coming to all kinds of bizarre conclusions.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2015, 08:37:01 PM
      What I find rather more than a teensy bit inexplicable is posters, whilst believing and maintaining that Eddie cannot be "unlearned," .........(so the work or play mode can`t apply, ).........from alerting to an almost unlimited number of contaminants tracked about and deposited just about everywhere;   never-the-less manage to reconcile it with the fact that he didn`t do so.

      They still bang on about how many substances Eddie would alert to.

      As to your point about Keela`s role...........Wasn`t she sent in following an alert by Eddie in order to pinpoint any actual forensic sample which could lead to the identification of the person to whom it belongs?

      Not one of the posters to whom you refer is voicing an opinion ... without exception all quote references to scientific studies ~ reports ~ including the comments made by Mr Grime.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 24, 2015, 08:38:18 PM
      It makes me feel quite sad that Amaral based his theory solely on the alerts of the dogs.   The one behind the sofa was probably a speck of blood [not Madeleine's]   there was nothing on the curtains nothing on the wall.   Eddie alerted to the bedroom, to what is unknown and to the garden again unknown and neither alert was investigated enough to get to the bottom of them.   Then Eddie alerted to the car to what who knows again as the sample from the car showed DNA from three people maybe as many as five.   The idea that the McCann's put a frozen Madeleine in the car is ludicrous to the extreme,   but still all these alerts are being used as evidence against the McCann's and Madeleine is still missing    8(8-))

      You don't know the human blood Keela alerted to behind the sofa and in the boot wasn't Madeleine's.

      How is there room for speculation about the DNA tests? It was those results that allowed you to advance with the arguido status.

      GA: The speculation is done by the scientist who performs the test. He starts out by saying, in his preliminary report, that it was easy to say that it was Maddie. Then he raised other questions. Of course nobody can be accused, based on that data alone.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 08:41:44 PM
      You don't know the human blood Keela alerted to behind the sofa and in the boot wasn't Madeleine's.

      How is there room for speculation about the DNA tests? It was those results that allowed you to advance with the arguido status.

      GA: The speculation is done by the scientist who performs the test. He starts out by saying, in his preliminary report, that it was easy to say that it was Maddie. Then he raised other questions. Of course nobody can be accused, based on that data alone.

      There's never been a dispute that Madeleine's DNA (distinct from Madeleine!) might well have been in the boot.

      But as an aficionado of the dogs, on this occasion, you should pay heed to the dog.

      Eddie never alerted to the boot.

      Why is that?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 24, 2015, 08:43:22 PM
      There's never been a dispute that Madeleine's DNA (distinct from Madeleine!) might well have been in the boot.

      But as an aficionado of the dogs, on this occasion, you should pay heed to the dog.

      Eddie never alerted to the boot.

      Why is that?

      He alerted to the source of the scent i.e. where it was escaping from the car. The source could be the boot because the whole car would be full of scent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 08:44:40 PM
      He alerted to the source of the scent i.e. where it was escaping from the car. The source could be the boot because the whole car would be full of scent.

      The source of the scent was Gerry's blood on the ignition key.

      That is forensically proved.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 24, 2015, 08:47:09 PM
      The obfuscation eight years down the line is entirely due to Mr Amaral's interpretation or misinterpretation ... understanding of misunderstanding.

      The McCanns were made arguido(a) on 7th Sept 2007. Sr Amaral was given a DCM on or about 3rd Oct 2007 ceasing to be involved in the case as a consequence. The case was archived back end July 2008.
      It is interesting , if Sr Amaral The Boogah Man had it all round his neck as you suggest, that the arguido status was not lifted earlier. Maybe those that followed had been indoctrinated?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 08:49:36 PM
      In the end, though..........the forensic results were inconclusive and that`s how it stands.

       (and never described as "non-existent" )
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 24, 2015, 08:51:40 PM
      The source of the scent was Gerry's blood on the ignition key.

      That is forensically proved.

      Yes but you can't rule out both on the key - blood and cadaver scent contaminated.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 08:54:45 PM
      Yes but you can't rule out both on the key - blood and cadaver scent contaminated.

      Yes you can.

      Before fraudster-Levy tampered with it, the video of the vehicle search clearly showed Grime, at one point, directing Eddie to the rear boot compartment of the car. 

      Eddie squats under the boot for several seconds, but he doesn't react. then he gets up and wanders off, only to be returned once more by Grime.

      Despite every opportunity, and even encouragement, Eddie just never reacted to the boot of the car.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 08:54:53 PM
      The source of the scent was Gerry's blood on the ignition key.

      That is forensically proved.

      As we have been through before..........the blood on the ignition key being Gerry`s does not confirm the absence of cadaver scent originally from another source being detected by Eddie.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 24, 2015, 09:03:59 PM
      As we have been through before..........the blood on the ignition key being Gerry`s does not confirm the absence of cadaver scent originally from another source being detected by Eddie.

      Eddie reacted twice in different places to the same scent and the same article, confirmed as having Gerry's DNA on it.

      An aside is that, in inspecting 10 vehicles simultaneously, there was risk of innocent scents in any of the other 9 cars, which could only have resulted in confusion for the dog.

      That also makes a mockery of the (apparent) prior reconnoitre in the gym, almost certainly cribbed from translated instructions on how to conduct canine searches in buildings and vehicles handed to the PJ by Mark Harrison.

      The rumour that he also handed an untranslated copy to Grime for him to read cannot be confirmed ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 09:05:06 PM
      As we have been through before..........the blood on the ignition key being Gerry`s does not confirm the absence of cadaver scent originally from another source being detected by Eddie.

      Where & when does Keela first mark the key fob?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 09:06:50 PM
      As we have been through before..........the blood on the ignition key being Gerry`s does not confirm the absence of cadaver scent originally from another source being detected by Eddie.
      And the odour escaped via airtight seals on the door, did it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 24, 2015, 09:13:40 PM
      As we have been through before..........the blood on the ignition key being Gerry`s does not confirm the absence of cadaver scent originally from another source being detected by Eddie.
      8(0(*

      agreed...in fact the alerts tell us b....r all
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 24, 2015, 09:18:27 PM
      The McCanns were made arguido(a) on 7th Sept 2007. Sr Amaral was given a DCM on or about 3rd Oct 2007 ceasing to be involved in the case as a consequence. The case was archived back end July 2008.
      It is interesting , if Sr Amaral The Boogah Man had it all round his neck as you suggest, that the arguido status was not lifted earlier. Maybe those that followed had been indoctrinated?

      Short attention span, perhaps, Carana has already posted re the arguido status.
      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg265965#msg265965

      "Maybe those that followed" were not beguiled by the same eagerness Mr Amaral had to lay charges based on the dogs' visit combined with dream interpretations but chose instead to follow the evidence ... which as we know led to no charges against Madeleine's parents.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 09:19:35 PM
      I think if Mr Amaral did not understand the findings it is proof that he is a very stupid man indeed.

      and what of two very stupid parents who set all this in motion ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 09:20:33 PM
      And the odour escaped via airtight seals on the door, did it?

      Airtight seals.

       &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 09:22:05 PM
      Short attention span, perhaps, Carana has already posted re the arguido status.
      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg265965#msg265965

      "Maybe those that followed" were not beguiled by the same eagerness Mr Amaral had to lay charges based on the dogs' visit combined with dream interpretations but chose instead to follow the evidence ... which as we know led to no charges against Madeleine's parents.

      I wonder if Amaral would get a flea in his ear for all the expenditure with the dogs ... if nothing was found?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 09:24:21 PM
      Airtight seals.

       &%&£(+ &%&£(+ &%&£(+

      Have you driven thru a flood and water has come in via the seals?.


      It has never come into any of our cars , new or older, even in a deluge.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 09:27:15 PM
      Have you driven thru a flood and water has come in via the seals?.


      It has ever come into any of our cars , new or older, even in a deluge.

      Are you for real ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 09:52:33 PM
      Are you for real ?

      Soz, I missed an "n" off.

      Well has a deluge ever come into any car that you have driven ?


      Just asking  8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 09:52:52 PM
      Are you for real ?

      My daughter once floated a Peugeot 206 down a flooded road where the water was 2ft deep in the middle and the car remained watertight.
      Does that help?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 09:55:32 PM
      Where & when does Keela first mark the key fob?

      Firstly the alert by Eddie at the hire car does not necessarily begin and end with the key fob.

      Secondly a blood alert by Eddie did not rule out a cadaver one.

      How do you know that the hand which held the key did not come into contact with a cadaver?

      You don`t know.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 09:55:59 PM
      Have you driven thru a flood and water has come in via the seals?.


      It has ever come into any of our cars , new or older, even in a deluge.
      Ever wonder what happens to rainwater that gets down past your car window seal in a deluge? It comes out here.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 09:59:56 PM
      My daughter once floated a Peugeot 206 down a flooded road where the water was 2ft deep in the middle and the car remained watertight.
      Does that help?

       Perhaps you could help me on this one.

      If a car is air tight and all the windows are sealed as are the doors.

      How can you smell odours from outside the vehicle  ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 10:04:15 PM
      Ever wonder what happens to rainwater that gets down past your car window seal in a deluge? It comes out here.
      Then travels all around large areas of the door?

      Soz, I find that far fetched.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 10:06:36 PM
      Firstly the alert by Eddie at the hire car does not necessarily begin and end with the key fob.

      Secondly a blood alert by Eddie did not rule out a cadaver one.

      How do you know that the hand which held the key did not come into contact with a cadaver?

      You don`t know.
      Quite no one knows anything for sure, hence the alerts are useless, aren't they?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 24, 2015, 10:07:19 PM
      Perhaps you could help me on this one.

      If a car is air tight and all the windows are sealed as are the doors.

      How can you smell odours from outside the vehicle  ?

      Liquids, vapours and gases again.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 10:09:21 PM
      Liquids, vapours and gases again.

      Indeed.

      I suggest to test her beliefs, sadie drives by a sewage plant with the doors closed and windows sealed. *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 10:11:48 PM
      Perhaps you could help me on this one.

      If a car is air tight and all the windows are sealed as are the doors.

      How can you smell odours from outside the vehicle  ?

      I never claimed a car was airtight. There are air-vents on the dashboard, aren't there and the smell of burning brakes at 70mph is one not to be forgotten.
      However, I would claim that a door seal is watertight so I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why Eddie barked at it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 10:13:50 PM
      I never claimed a car was airtight. There are air-vents on the dashboard, aren't there and the smell of burning brakes at 70mph is one not to be forgotten.
      However, I would claim that a door seal is watertight so I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why Eddie barked at it.

      Diffusion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 10:14:47 PM
      Quite no one knows anything for sure, hence the alerts are useless, aren't they?

      An investigative tool is never useless. The alerts and forensic results exist as part of the investigation.

      Alerts leading to inconclusive forensic results are what we have.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 10:17:28 PM
      Firstly the alert by Eddie at the hire car does not necessarily begin and end with the key fob.

      Secondly a blood alert by Eddie did not rule out a cadaver one.

      How do you know that the hand which held the key did not come into contact with a cadaver?

      You don`t know.
      The car boot was stripped to find forensic evidence supporting Keela's alert there.
      I asked when & where  KEELA first alerted to the key fob. Was it before or after Grime produced it from the door pocket in the same "rabbit from a hat" fashion Cuddlecat appeared out of the cupboard?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 10:25:04 PM
      An investigative tool is never useless. The alerts and forensic results exist as part of the investigation.

      Alerts leading to inconclusive forensic results are what we have.
      I didn't say the tool (dogs) were useless I said the alerts were, and they are because they tell us nothing, we still after all these years of discussion have no real knowledge of what caused the dogs to alert.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 10:26:43 PM
      Diffusion.

      Do you think a stationary closed  vehicle in a windless environment can produce a concentration gradient sufficient to shift those minute particles of blood on the key through the seal?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 24, 2015, 10:32:58 PM
      Do you think a stationary closed  vehicle in a windless environment can produce a concentration gradient sufficient to shift those minute particles of blood on the key through the seal?

      Have you been googling ?

       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 10:34:29 PM
      I didn't say the tool (dogs) were useless I said the alerts were, and they are because they tell us nothing, we still after all these years of discussion have no real knowledge of what caused the dogs to alert.

      The alerts were what led to the forensic samples being recovered for analysis.

      Results were inconclusive.....not non existent......(and no pig got a mention in the forensic report.)

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 10:38:39 PM
      Have you been googling ?

      Me? I've been to a Sublime Science party. I know everything there is to know.  8)--))

      (but perhaps, as the expert,  you could answer in layman's terms so those with watertight car door seals can understand)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 10:41:13 PM
      The car boot was stripped to find forensic evidence supporting Keela's alert there.
      I asked when & where  KEELA first alerted to the key fob. Was it before or after Grime produced it from the door pocket in the same "rabbit from a hat" fashion Cuddlecat appeared out of the cupboard?

      My points still stand.

      Nothing you say changes them......(and I can read the name Keela without it being yelled.)

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 10:47:25 PM
      Do you think a stationary closed  vehicle in a windless environment can produce a concentration gradient sufficient to shift those minute particles of blood on the key through the seal?

      Residual Cadaver odour may have triggered the alert by Eddie at the door regardless of any blood on the key.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 10:49:49 PM
      The alerts were what led to the forensic samples being recovered for analysis.

      Results were inconclusive.....not non existent......(and no pig got a mention in the forensic report.)
      you're being facetious again.  None of the results came anywhere close to suggesting a dead body had been in contact with any of the McCanns property or possessions, hence the alerts themselves prove nothing, are worth nothing, and some people should really try and come to terms with this fact, difficult though it may be for them.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 10:50:51 PM
      My points still stand.

      Nothing you say changes them......(and I can read the name Keela without it being yelled.)

      Your point doesn't really stand, does it?
      If the boot had to be stripped so Keela could pinpoint the precise point of the human residual deposits, how could Grime be so sure that both Eddie had marked the key rather than another part of the driver's area without carrying out the same procedure? Simply showing both dogs indicated the bloodied key in a bucket of sand does not negate the possible presence of residue in the close proximity to the door compartment. Unless you knew it was only on the key.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 10:55:00 PM
      you're being facetious again. None of the results came anywhere close to suggesting a dead body had been in contact with any of the McCanns property or possessions, hence the alerts themselves prove nothing, are worth nothing, and some people should really try and come to terms with this fact, difficult though it may be for them.

      You are making personal comments again.

      The forensic results were inconclusive.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 24, 2015, 10:56:11 PM
      Your point doesn't really stand, does it?
      If the boot had to be stripped so Keela could pinpoint the precise point of the human residual deposits, how could Grime be so sure that both Eddie had marked the key rather than another part of the driver's area without carrying out the same procedure? Simply showing both dogs indicated the bloodied key in a bucket of sand does not negate the possible presence of residue in the close proximity to the door compartment. Unless you knew it was only on the key.

      Residual Cadaver odour may have triggered the alert by Eddie at the door regardless of any blood on the key.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 24, 2015, 10:58:05 PM
      You are making personal comments again.

      The forensic results were inconclusive.
      Whatever.  You win.  The dog alerts are extremely important evidence and probably almost definitely maybe prove the McCanns dunnit.  There you go, that's right isn't it? 

      See I can be facetious too... 8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 11:03:39 PM
      Do you think a stationary closed  vehicle in a windless environment can produce a concentration gradient sufficient to shift those minute particles of blood on the key through the seal?
      The air that Eddie alerted to came out of the drainhole which is further out than the doorseal.
      And no wind is needed. Brownian motion causes scent molecules to spread.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 11:11:09 PM
      Indeed.

      I suggest to test her beliefs, sadie drives by a sewage plant with the doors closed and windows sealed. *&*%£

      Oh there are lots of ways that scents can get into or out of a car, but via the door seals aint one of them.


      Every car has to have a gentle air flow thru it, but I have never felt any drafts by modern car doors even at high speed. 

      Have you Stephen?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 24, 2015, 11:19:32 PM
      The air that Eddie alerted to came out of the drainhole which is further out than the doorseal.
      And no wind is needed. Brownian motion causes scent molecules to spread.

      How does the Brownian motion apply to particles which first have to pass through a solid, ie, the interior window seal, before they can travel down to the drainhole?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 24, 2015, 11:22:09 PM
      you're being facetious again.  None of the results came anywhere close to suggesting a dead body had been in contact with any of the McCanns property or possessions, hence the alerts themselves prove nothing, are worth nothing, and some people should really try and come to terms with this fact, difficult though it may be for them.

      Yep, I agree, he is being facetious.  And yep, they should try to come to terms with them.

      It cannot be easy to have your beliefs for over 8 years so thoroughly torn apart by the evidence of documents and arguments from so many of these very clever people.

      Just let the facts sink in and accept the truth.



      Brenda Ryan did, when she realised the error of her previous thoughts

      She was big enough to change.  Time some of you accepted that you are WRONG.



      Well done Brenda Ryan.  8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 24, 2015, 11:59:26 PM
      How does the Brownian motion apply to particles which first have to pass through a solid, ie, the interior window seal, before they can travel down to the drainhole?
      The scent goes by brownian motion from the passenger compartment to the interior cavity of the door (for example through the holes where the door release handle and electrical switches are) and then out of the door drainhole (bypassing the doorseal completely). Eddie's nose was aligned with the door's drainhole.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2015, 12:03:12 AM
      The McCanns were made arguido(a) on 7th Sept 2007. Sr Amaral was given a DCM on or about 3rd Oct 2007 ceasing to be involved in the case as a consequence. The case was archived back end July 2008.
      It is interesting , if Sr Amaral The Boogah Man had it all round his neck as you suggest, that the arguido status was not lifted earlier. Maybe those that followed had been indoctrinated?

      My point exactly Alice.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 25, 2015, 12:30:14 AM
      The scent goes by brownian motion from the passenger compartment to the interior cavity of the door (for example through the holes where the door release handle and electrical switches are) and then out of the door drainhole (bypassing the doorseal completely). Eddie's nose was aligned with the door's drainhole.

      Is there no chemical reaction with the anti-corrosion treatment inside the door cavity?
      Is the same drainage system is in the boot door?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 12:43:48 AM
      The scent goes by brownian motion from the passenger compartment to the interior cavity of the door (for example through the holes where the door release handle and electrical switches are) and then out of the door drainhole (bypassing the doorseal completely). Eddie's nose was aligned with the door's drainhole.

      But Eddies nose went along the bottom and up the side.   I feel sure it did.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 25, 2015, 12:46:15 AM
      Is there no chemical reaction with the anti-corrosion treatment inside the door cavity?
      Is the same drainage system is in the boot door?
      You could try the Panorama footage which shows the open boot on 2nd August 2007 not sure if it shows drainholes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 25, 2015, 12:48:20 AM
      But Eddies nose went along the bottom and up the side.   I feel sure it did.
      You have the video. Look at where the nose stops just before bark it's where the door drainhole is.
      http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 12:50:58 AM
      You have the video. Look at where the nose stops just before bark it's where the door drainhole is

      If you say so, I am not about to do it now.

      I do remember his nose going a long way around the door.


      Nigh Night all.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 25, 2015, 12:57:17 AM
      You could try the Panorama footage which shows the open boot on 2nd August 2007 not sure if it shows drainholes.
      [/quot]

      OK, thanks. That begs the question as to why Eddie didn't alert at the boot lid if the same principle applies - but it does add to my belief that the key was placed in the door compartment for a very good reason.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 25, 2015, 02:27:34 AM
      The Scenic has instead of a key a card.
      If you press the stop engine button and leave card in slot and open door, you get warning "remove card".
      So the card was removed and put in the driver door pocket.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 25, 2015, 02:40:03 AM
      Or some models have more advanced "proximity" keycard no need to put in a slot
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 25, 2015, 06:51:41 AM
      It cannot be easy to have your beliefs for over 8 years so thoroughly torn apart by the evidence of documents and arguments from so many of these very clever people.

      Just let the facts sink in and accept the facts.

      That cuts both ways.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 08:07:28 AM
      That cuts both ways.
      Noone has presented any convincing evidence that the dogs were right, but there is plenty to suggest that their alerts were meaningless.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 08:31:00 AM
      Oh there are lots of ways that scents can get into or out of a car, but via the door seals aint one of them.


      Every car has to have a gentle air flow thru it, but I have never felt any drafts by modern car doors even at high speed. 

      Have you Stephen?

      Good. You admit air gets in and out, well that's a breakthrough.

      Now how about air-conditioning ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 08:32:28 AM
      Yep, I agree, he is being facetious.  And yep, they should try to come to terms with them.

      It cannot be easy to have your beliefs for over 8 years so thoroughly torn apart by the evidence of documents and arguments from so many of these very clever people.

      Just let the facts sink in and accept the truth.



      Brenda Ryan did, when she realised the error of her previous thoughts

      She was big enough to change.  Time some of you accepted that you are WRONG.



      Well done Brenda Ryan.  8((()*/

      Unfortunately, Brenda Ryan's links to other people have been established. &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 08:38:27 AM
      Me? I've been to a Sublime Science party. I know everything there is to know.  8)--))

      (but perhaps, as the expert,  you could answer in layman's terms so those with watertight car door seals can understand)

      So you are of the alchemy school of science.  8**8:/:

      Meanwhile, where did I mention small particles of blood ?

      and let's not forget car doors and windows get open and closed.  8)--))

      and since when are car deals 100% effective ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 08:46:55 AM
      Noone has presented any convincing evidence that the dogs were right, but there is plenty to suggest that their alerts were meaningless.

      Of course alfred.


      and pigs don't lie. 8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 09:01:49 AM
      That cuts both ways.

      I keep hoping that some of you will accept official documents, realise that Amaral was barking up the wrong tree ... and be big enough not only to throw in the towel, but to publically apologise



      Would be good if some of you who were able, would make the effort ....  and like Brenda Ryan put right some of the harm that you have done.


      A very strong and caring woman is Brenda Ryan.  It cant have been easy switching sides when she realised her mistakes, but she did.  Then she went out of her way to try and make amends by publishing her blog supporting Madeleine and The Mccanns. 

      Can anyone remember the name of her blog?   It was very sensitive and well thought out, I would like to reread it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 09:05:24 AM
      Good. You admit air gets in and out, well that's a breakthrough.

      Now how about air-conditioning ?
      Of course air gets in and out.  I have never said anything different.


      But it doesn't get in or out via the door seals.  Have you ever felt drafts when driving at speed?   Have you ever been in a deluge or flood and had water come in via the door seals?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 09:09:57 AM
      So you are of the alchemy school of science.  8**8:/:

      Meanwhile, where did I mention small particles of blood ?

      and let's not forget car doors and windows get open and closed.  8)--))

      and since when are car deals 100% effective ?
      Why didn't you answer mistys question Stephen

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 09:13:35 AM
      Noone has presented any convincing evidence that the dogs were right, but there is plenty to suggest that their alerts were meaningless.

      Absolutely  8((()*/

      But some are happy to hang, draw and quarter The Mccanns on NO EVIDENCE


      There is no evidence at all that the Mccanns are involved in any way.

      None
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 09:33:22 AM
      Of course air gets in and out.  I have never said anything different.


      But it doesn't get in or out via the door seals.  Have you ever felt drafts when driving at speed?   Have you ever been in a deluge or flood and had water come in via the door seals?


      Do you ever watch the news sadie ?

      Besides no seals are 100% effective.

      Unless of course you leave in dreamland.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 09:35:32 AM
      Why didn't you answer mistys question Stephen

      Did you know sadie that car doors and windows get opened ?  @)(++(*

      and yet again sadie, seals are never 100% effective.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 09:37:32 AM
      Absolutely  8((()*/

      But some are happy to hang, draw and quarter The Mccanns on NO EVIDENCE


      There is no evidence at all that the Mccanns are involved in any way.

      None

      Of course sadie. 8)--))

      Likewise, there is ZERO of abduction.

      Unless you believe in fairies. 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 09:39:26 AM
      Of course alfred.


      and pigs don't lie. 8)--))
      Here's a simple question for you Stephen: on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being completely meaningless and 10 being solid proof of the presence of a cadaver) where would you put Eddie & Keela's alerts?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 09:48:43 AM
      You are doing a lot of snarling today stephen

      Up a corner, are you ?   Having difficulty wriggling out?


      Why dont you answer the questions stephen?   Mistys and mine.


      Gotta go, but will be pleased to see if you have grasped the nettle when I come back
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 09:49:07 AM
      Here's a simple question for you Stephen: on a scale of 1 to 10 (1 being completely meaningless and 10 being solid proof of the presence of a cadaver) where would you put Eddie & Keela's alerts?

      In terms of probability 7-8.

      That was based upon the report I posted last week and others I have read in the past.

      Simply because dogs are trained to respond to a group of compounds.

      The dogs made alerts.

      Mccann supporters such as yourself are, lets face it, hardly likely top accept the dogs alerted to a body

      I can't give any higher as I have not seen the entire recordings of what happened with the dogs, nor has anyone on here i would surmise.

      and since the forensic results were inconclusive, we will go on forever, with no end in sight .

      Meanwhile of course, no pig residue was found.

      So those who believe the dogs were responding to pig traces are honking up the wrong tree.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 09:50:00 AM
      Not one of the posters to whom you refer is voicing an opinion ... without exception all quote references to scientific studies ~ reports ~ including the comments made by Mr Grime.

      Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

      Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

      How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

      Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

      Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

      Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

      Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

      A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

      It can work for propaganda purposes, though.





      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 09:50:15 AM
      You are doing a lot of snarling today stephen

      Up a corner, are you ?   Having difficulty wriggling out?


      Why dont you answer the questions stephen?   Mistys and mine.


      Gotta go, but will be pleased to see if you have grasped the nettle when I come back

      I have answered the questions sadie.

      However, you are too blind and mccann obsessed to see it.

      P.S. I don't 'snarl'. Try to tell the difference between that and sarcasm.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 09:58:06 AM
      Whatever.  You win.  The dog alerts are extremely important evidence and probably almost definitely maybe prove the McCanns dunnit.  There you go, that's right isn't it? 

      See I can be facetious too... 8)--))

      Calling me facetious is becoming a habit.

      Could it be a convenient way to cover up your cop-out mode when faced with points you can`t bluster through?

      ( ooops...... could be!)    8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 09:59:10 AM
      On 6 August 2007, at 15h17, a canine inspection was performed in the following motor cars, this
      being done on level -4 of the above-mentioned underground car park:
      [list of cars: Opel Corsa; Fiat Punto; Peugeot 205; Renault Scenic; Skodia Fabia; VW Transporter;
      Nissan Patrol; VW Passat; Audi A4; Renault Kangoo.]

      Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour,
      examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having
      been verified the following result:

      15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
      and Kate McCann.

      Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert
      examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory
      and another canine inspection that
      began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having
      been verified the following result:

      03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
      compartment of the car;

      04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
      which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the
      Budget rental company.

      In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
      map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
      and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
      park.

      At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
      System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

      At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
      key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.

      At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
      System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

      08-Processo Volume 8 pages 2186 to 2188
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm


      [/list]
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 25, 2015, 10:10:17 AM

      Lets keep it polite and on topic, please.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 10:11:52 AM
      In terms of probability 7-8.

      That was based upon the report I posted last week and others I have read in the past.

      Simply because dogs are trained to respond to a group of compounds.

      The dogs made alerts.

      Mccann supporters such as yourself are, lets face it, hardly likely top accept the dogs alerted to a body

      I can't give any higher as I have not seen the entire recordings of what happened with the dogs, nor has anyone on here i would surmise.

      and since the forensic results were inconclusive, we will go on forever, with no end in sight .

      Meanwhile of course, no pig residue was found.

      So those who believe the dogs were responding to pig traces are honking up the wrong tree.

      is this just a personal opinion or is it backed by any sort of data
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 10:13:03 AM
      is this just a personal opinion or is it backed by any sort of data

      Read.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 10:17:04 AM
      Read.

      are you willing to debate your claim in a civilised manner
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 10:20:47 AM
      A few intriguing details looking at the video again. ...

      - Assuming that the composite video is the entirety of what Levy originally posted, there doesn't appear to be the scene where Eddie is supposed to have had a free roam to ensure a lack of pre-existing odours.

      - Keela alerting to the door compartment isn't shown.

      - The sandbox scenes aren't shown.

      - How the cars got there (driven, or on a low-loader) isn't shown.

      - The move to level -3 for the forensic then Keela inspection isn't shown.

      - At 1.24:35 ish Grime explaining Eddie's reaction to seal of door and Grime stating that he did NOT intend to put Eddie in the car (contrary to TdeA's report, then 1.24:54 ish - sudden cut to Grime opening door for Keela. Keela had a sniff in the front (can only really see Grime peering in through the window), then at the back. Then he opens the boot to direct her where to sniff. The door glove compartment scene takes place after the boot one, according to the written report, but isn't shown in the video.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 10:21:23 AM
      Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

      Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

      How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

      Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

      Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

      Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

      Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

      A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

      It can work for propaganda purposes, though.

      Does it not, at the very least, give you cause for concern that Grime was handed the video of the vehicle inspection for personal, promotional, purposes?

      Or that that was the one (and only!) inspection where he wore the anti-cross contamination overalls of his trade?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 10:21:48 AM
      are you willing to debate your claim in a civilised manner

      Civilized manner ?
      uc
      Your history of calling other posters liars and isnulting their intelligence is not condusive to good debate.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 10:24:25 AM
      Civilized manner ?
      uc
      Your history of calling other posters liars and isnulting their intelligence is not condusive to good debate.

      you have made several claims......your latest is a probability of 7 to 8

      I can't see how you can support this with any sort of evidence...
      would you be prepared to debate this in a civilised manner then others can make up their own minds
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 10:26:09 AM
      you have made several claims......your latest is a probability of 7 to 8

      I can't see how you can support this with any sort of evidence...
      would you be prepared to debate this in a civilised manner then others can make up their own minds

      Read the article.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 10:28:01 AM
      Questions.

      Who has the last person to have touched the key card? Gerry drove the car to meet with the PJ, who then took it, but was it then driven on a low-loader all the way into the garage? In between Eddie and Keela sniffing it was taken to a different level for the forensic inspection (from -4 to -3)... Would it have again been put on a low-loader? Or did someone drive it around from the pick-up point to the inspection site, then to the forensic / Keela inspection level? If so, was the person wearing gloves and a forensic suit? The only person visible who was wearing gloves and a suit was Grime. If he drove it, was he wearing the same gloves as when he handled the dogs' leads?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 10:29:32 AM
      Calling me facetious is becoming a habit.

      Could it be a convenient way to cover up your cop-out mode when faced with points you can`t bluster through?

      ( ooops...... could be!)    8)-)))
      No, I don't think so.  I haven't had to bluster through any points, certainly not in the manner which you have just exhibited above!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 10:31:50 AM
      In terms of probability 7-8.

      That was based upon the report I posted last week and others I have read in the past.

      Simply because dogs are trained to respond to a group of compounds.

      The dogs made alerts.

      Mccann supporters such as yourself are, lets face it, hardly likely top accept the dogs alerted to a body

      I can't give any higher as I have not seen the entire recordings of what happened with the dogs, nor has anyone on here i would surmise.

      and since the forensic results were inconclusive, we will go on forever, with no end in sight .

      Meanwhile of course, no pig residue was found.

      So those who believe the dogs were responding to pig traces are honking up the wrong tree.
      No human cadaver 'residue' was found either so...on what evidence is there to support a 70-80% likelihood that the dogs alerted to cadaver? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 10:32:36 AM
      Read the article.
      I haven't seen your article - perhaps you could extract the information from it which supports your claim?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 10:35:23 AM
      Another point: where Eddie was encouraged to sniff is under the wheels and the boot, plus a quick sniff at the bottom of the door areas. That would be where scent, if present, is expected to emanate from isn't it? Why then didn't he alert to the boot of the Scenic? He was made to check under it more than once.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 10:35:48 AM
      No human cadaver 'residue' was found either so...on what evidence is there to support a 70-80% likelihood that the dogs alerted to cadaver?

      The results of the analysis were inconclusive alfred.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 10:36:05 AM
      Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

      Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

      How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

      Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

      Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

      Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

      Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

      A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

      It can work for propaganda purposes, though.

      Who wrote the report?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 10:36:30 AM
      I haven't seen your article - perhaps you could extract the information from it which supports your claim?

      Look on last weeks posts and click on the link.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 10:36:42 AM
      The results of the analysis were inconclusive alfred.
      Were they 70-80% supportive of the presence of a dead body?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 10:38:10 AM
      Were they 70-80% supportive of the presence of a dead body?

      The article indicated, over a 90% success rate.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 10:38:53 AM
      Questions.

      Who has the last person to have touched the key card? Gerry drove the car to meet with the PJ, who then took it, but was it then driven on a low-loader all the way into the garage? In between Eddie and Keela sniffing it was taken to a different level for the forensic inspection (from -4 to -3)... Would it have again been put on a low-loader? Or did someone drive it around from the pick-up point to the inspection site, then to the forensic / Keela inspection level? If so, was the person wearing gloves and a forensic suit? The only person visible who was wearing gloves and a suit was Grime. If he drove it, was he wearing the same gloves as when he handled the dogs' leads?

      Another question: remembering, always, that they were looking for Madeleine's blood, what was the basis of supposition that it might be found on the ignition key of a car hired 3 weeks after her abduction?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 10:42:27 AM
      Read the article.

      I read one article you posted last week and it does not support your claim..are you willing to debate your claim in a civilised manner
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 10:43:24 AM
      I read one article you posted last week and it does not support your claim..are you willing to debate your claim in a civilised manner

      Go ahead.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 10:43:48 AM
      No, I don't think so.  I haven't had to bluster through any points, certainly not in the manner which you have just exhibited above!


      Errm..........below isn`t an example of your name- calling and cop-out bluster then?
      That`s the post of yours I replied to this morning.


      "Whatever.  You win.  The dog alerts are extremely important evidence and probably almost definitely maybe prove the McCanns dunnit.  There you go, that's right isn't it? 

      See I can be facetious too... 8)--)) "
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 10:44:21 AM
      The results of the analysis were inconclusive alfred.

      Where? You don't mean 5A, do you? Even Amaral lost interest in the DNA results behind the sofa in 5A. Keela didn't alert in the bedroom, so no swabs were even taken there.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 10:50:10 AM

      Errm..........below isn`t an example of your name- calling and cop-out bluster then?
      That`s the post of yours I replied to this morning.


      "Whatever.  You win.  The dog alerts are extremely important evidence and probably almost definitely maybe prove the McCanns dunnit.  There you go, that's right isn't it? 

      See I can be facetious too... 8)--)) "
      How does my post serve as an example of name-calling, exactly?  Facetious yes, bluster - well, in your opinion.   8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 10:51:17 AM
      The article indicated, over a 90% success rate.
      Of what?  Eddie and Keela?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 10:54:43 AM
      Of what?  Eddie and Keela?

      Read the report.

      1998, by the way.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 10:56:28 AM
      How does my post serve as an example of name-calling, exactly?  Facetious yes, bluster - well, in your opinion.   8)-)))


      .........and so another nit-pickers` convention is back in session for the day.

      Enjoy   ?{)(**

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 11:15:35 AM

      .........and so another nit-pickers` convention is back in session for the day.

      Enjoy   ?{)(**
      You accused me of "name-calling", your accusation had no basis in fact.  Good bye, have a nice day &8#£%
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 25, 2015, 11:16:11 AM
      Short attention span, perhaps, Carana has already posted re the arguido status.
      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg265965#msg265965

      "Maybe those that followed" were not beguiled by the same eagerness Mr Amaral had to lay charges based on the dogs' visit combined with dream interpretations but chose instead to follow the evidence ... which as we know led to no charges against Madeleine's parents.

      We do indeed but you failed to address to my question. If it were that cut and dried why take another nine months to lift the arguido status.
      As for my attention span it is longer than your ability to make a post without a sneer  8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 11:20:00 AM
      We do indeed but you failed to address to my question. If it were that cut and dried why take another nine months to lift the arguido status.
      As for my attention span it is longer than your ability to make a post without a sneer  8(0(*

      Rebello probably needed that long to clear up the mess he inherited from Amaral so he could hand the process over to the prosecutors in a fit state to be perused ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: John on August 25, 2015, 11:20:16 AM
      This thread seems to have grown legs if you excuse the pun.

      Members have been well warned by moderators as to the consequences of breaching forum rules on a regular basis, I want to remind all members that bad behaviour will be rewarded with sanctions.  Please keep posts friendly and to the point guys.  TY
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 11:25:54 AM
      Read the report.

      1998, by the way.
      I can't read the report as you won't supply the link.  So, if it was written in 1998 we know that whatever it was about it wasn't about Eddie & Keela's accuracy.  But - if it was about cadaver dogs in general being 90% accurate, and Eddie and Keela were the best dogs in the world ever why do you only rate their alerts at 70-80%?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 11:27:20 AM
      Returning, for a moment, to this business of a suggestion of scent (be it cadaver or whatever) within Eddie's scent-range, stemming from sources other than the ignition key: there would have been a very simple way to test that.

      They could have got Eddie to re-examine the vehicle with the ignition key removed.

      Well, I say very simple, considering how long it took Eddie to react to the vehicle first time, perhaps not so simple.

      But I'm sure you get the drift ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 11:28:16 AM
      I can't read the report as you won't supply the link.  So, if it was written in 1998 we know that whatever it was about it wasn't about Eddie & Keela's accuracy.  But - if it was about cadaver dogs in general being 90% accurate, and Eddie and Keela were the best dogs in the world ever why do you only rate their alerts at 70-80%?

      Perhaps you should learn to read what I posted earlier.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 11:43:02 AM
      Go ahead.

      good...I'm at work at the moment so we can discus it this afternoon
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 25, 2015, 11:45:51 AM

      I am going to get cross in a minute.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 11:51:56 AM
      Another question: remembering, always, that they were looking for Madeleine's blood, what was the basis of supposition that it might be found on the ignition key of a car hired 3 weeks after her abduction?

      A bit odd, isn't it?

      That whoever handled the non-existent gooey mess in the boot also drove the car? Or that the key card had fallen onto it?

      If Grime is correct that Keela can identify blood to molecular level, then that molecule of blood could belong to anyone since the key card was manufactured. As the GP, that doesn't seem to explain Eddie's reactions (his lack of reaction to where this gooey mess in the boot was supposed to have been, nor his reaction to the key card).

      I think it was Misty who questioned whether the door compartment was subjected to the same verification as the key card, which is why I went back to check. So far, there seems to be no indication that the door storage compartment itself was subject to particular scrutiny by both dogs. Keela's alert to it isn't on the video. There is no mention of the door being opened either on the video, nor in the report, as to whether the door was opened for Eddie to have a sniff of the inside of the door.

      When driving, I find that it's the most convenient storage area for anything I need to grab or stuff somewhere other than on the passenger seat. Maps come out, water and sandwiches, tissues / food wrapping go in.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 11:56:38 AM
      Perhaps you should learn to read what I posted earlier.
      Why should I seek out and read every post you make on this forum?  Do you read everything I post, every link?  Why are you completely unwilling to re-post the link?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 12:00:26 PM
      is this the article you are referring to Stephen
      http://aboutforensics.co.uk/detection-dogs/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 12:01:29 PM
      The McCanns were made arguido(a) on 7th Sept 2007. Sr Amaral was given a DCM on or about 3rd Oct 2007 ceasing to be involved in the case as a consequence. The case was archived back end July 2008.
      It is interesting , if Sr Amaral The Boogah Man had it all round his neck as you suggest, that the arguido status was not lifted earlier. Maybe those that followed had been indoctrinated?

      I'm not sure that I understand your question, Alice. The investigation had to continue either towards charging one or more people or to archival, whoever was in charge. Arguido status isn't lifted on anyone until the end of the investigation phase.

      The only exception to that appears to be someone questioned by the UK (for which I haven't seen a specific provision in the PPC). If it is true that arguido status was lifted, then I can only assume for the moment that it was a temporary arrangement to equate to the UK version of being questioned under caution.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2015, 12:23:54 PM
      I'm not sure that I understand your question, Alice. The investigation had to continue either towards charging one or more people or to archival, whoever was in charge. Arguido status isn't lifted on anyone until the end of the investigation phase.

      The only exception to that appears to be someone questioned by the UK (for which I haven't seen a specific provision in the PPC). If it is true that arguido status was lifted, then I can only assume for the moment that it was a temporary arrangement to equate to the UK version of being questioned under caution.

      It would seem that under Rebelo the only individuals being seriously investigated were the parents and their friends.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 12:24:54 PM
      is this the article you are referring to Stephen
      http://aboutforensics.co.uk/detection-dogs/
      I got a Bullguard warning when I clicked on that link - just sayin...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 12:26:38 PM
      It would seem that under Rebelo the only individuals being seriously investigated were the parents and their friends.
      On what do you base that supposition?  I thought "sceptics" were keen to point out that the PJ continued to investigate ALL theories re: Madeleine's disappearance, are you now saying this is incorrect?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 25, 2015, 12:34:16 PM
      "went to a large office store in Portimao to buy a new printer and ink"
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2015, 12:39:05 PM
      On what do you base that supposition?  I thought "sceptics" were keen to point out that the PJ continued to investigate ALL theories re: Madeleine's disappearance, are you now saying this is incorrect?

      There comes a time in any investigation when, although other information is considered, the focus is overwhelmingly focused on a certain individual or individuals. Under Rebelo the files show those individuals were the McCanns and their friends.

      Do you disagree ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 12:40:36 PM
      There comes a time in any investigation when, although other information is considered, the focus is overwhelmingly focused on a certain individual or individuals. Under Rebelo the files show those individuals were the McCanns and their friends.

      Do you disagree ?

      doesn't really matter...the investigation is going in the right direction now
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 25, 2015, 12:43:21 PM
      It would seem that under Rebelo the only individuals being seriously investigated were the parents and their friends.

      On the alerts of the dogs?  But that is the whole point.  Nothing else was being investigated it seems.  So more bias then?

      Despite Scotland Yard coming up with a few other ideas.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 12:50:23 PM
      There comes a time in any investigation when, although other information is considered, the focus is overwhelmingly focused on a certain individual or individuals. Under Rebelo the files show those individuals were the McCanns and their friends.

      Do you disagree ?
      No I don't disagree - Amaral had taken the investigation down a blind alley to the exclusion of everything else and Rebelo had no choice but to re-examine the witnesses and arguidos.  He was being thorough, but despite his thoroughness he found nothing to suggest the parents dunnit.  Oh dear. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 12:52:42 PM
      It would seem that under Rebelo the only individuals being seriously investigated were the parents and their friends.

      What evidence do you have to back the claim?

      For example, the final PJ report was written under the auspices of Rebello and states (quite correctly!) that at the time of the Smith sighting, Gerry was in the Tapas restaurant.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 25, 2015, 12:53:40 PM
      Did this model car have a slot cardkey or a proximity cardkey?
      If its proximity type, you can drive with it sitting in door pocket or anywhere in car.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 12:54:32 PM
      There comes a time in any investigation when, although other information is considered, the focus is overwhelmingly focused on a certain individual or individuals. Under Rebelo the files show those individuals were the McCanns and their friends.

      Do you disagree ?

      No, because the clock was ticking. As there were arguidos, either one or more of them had to be charged or the case archived within a timeframe that had already been extended, unless new - credible - information had suddenly come in to take the investigation in a different direction.

      The laws concerning arguidos have since been modified.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 12:59:58 PM
      Did this model car have a slot cardkey or a proximity cardkey?
      If its proximity type, you can drive with it sitting in door pocket or anywhere in car.

      Don't know... when was the car manufactured?

      At some point a proximity card would need to be handled, wouldn't it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 25, 2015, 01:05:09 PM
      Don't know... when was the car manufactured?

      At some point a proximity card would need to be handled, wouldn't it?
      It was first rented out new in about Mar 2007 IIRC so probably a 2007 model.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 25, 2015, 01:10:05 PM
      Don't know... when was the car manufactured?

      At some point a proximity card would need to be handled, wouldn't it?

      That has always been my argument, Carana. Whoever touched the key fob also touched the door handle & the steering wheel - yet there was no cross-contamination according to Eddie.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 25, 2015, 01:22:11 PM
      I keep hoping that some of you will accept official documents, realise that Amaral was barking up the wrong tree ... and be big enough not only to throw in the towel, but to publically apologise



      Would be good if some of you who were able, would make the effort ....  and like Brenda Ryan put right some of the harm that you have done.


      A very strong and caring woman is Brenda Ryan.  It cant have been easy switching sides when she realised her mistakes, but she did.  Then she went out of her way to try and make amends by publishing her blog supporting Madeleine and The Mccanns. 

      Can anyone remember the name of her blog?   It was very sensitive and well thought out, I would like to reread it

      Blinkered – My god I was blindfolded
      I know there is a lot of tweets from people going on about what happened pre-arguido days and it seems that they are  living back in 2007 before the Attorney General said the McCanns along with Robert Murat did NOT commit any crimes and they were released from their arguido days.
      https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/blinkered-my-god-i-was-blindfolded/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 01:43:19 PM
      It would seem that under Rebelo the only individuals being seriously investigated were the parents and their friends.

      Under Rebelo, the final PJ report was written, which clearly states the McCanns are innocent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2015, 02:01:19 PM
      No I don't disagree - Amaral had taken the investigation down a blind alley to the exclusion of everything else and Rebelo had no choice but to re-examine the witnesses and arguidos.  He was being thorough, but despite his thoroughness he found nothing to suggest the parents dunnit.  Oh dear.

      Being thorough ? He didn't question Murat or anyone connected to him even though he was also an arguido, so not especially thorough, and the reconstitution was his idea not Amaral's. It seems he also thought the timeline didn't work.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 25, 2015, 02:08:40 PM
      Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

      Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

      How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

      Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

      Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

      Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

      Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

      A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

      It can work for propaganda purposes, though.

      If you are unwilling to take what Mr Grime says about Eddie's alert in the Renault I am very sorry, but nothing anyone on this forum or elsewhere has to say is going to overcome the level of prejudice and denial you are suffering from so forgive me for stating the obvious yet again.

      Mr Grime just cannot make it any clearer that Eddie did not alert to cadaver odour in the Renault

      Do you really think Mr Grime and the PJ were too stupid to verify what Eddie was or was not alerting to by ensuring him access to the car once Keela had detected blood to ensure it was checked out and either ruled in or eliminated for cadaver scent.

      In fact when Eddie was introduced to parking level 3 and had the choice to alert either to the car or to the key fob ... what did he choose?
      Unless you choose to disregard Mr Grime's statement ... Eddie alerted to the key fob ... Eddie did not alert to the Renault ... therefore Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent, Madeleine McCann's or anyone else's.



      **Snip
      (Eddie)
      15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
      and Kate McCann.


      (Keela)
      Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having been verified the following result:

      03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
      compartment of the car;
      04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the Budget rental company.

      In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park.
      At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

      (Eddie)
      At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
      At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
      ... the present document has been duly signed:
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 25, 2015, 02:13:19 PM
      On 6 August 2007, at 15h17, a canine inspection was performed in the following motor cars, this
      being done on level -4 of the above-mentioned underground car park:
      [list of cars: Opel Corsa; Fiat Punto; Peugeot 205; Renault Scenic; Skodia Fabia; VW Transporter;
      Nissan Patrol; VW Passat; Audi A4; Renault Kangoo.]

      Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour,
      examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having
      been verified the following result:

      15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
      and Kate McCann.

      Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert
      examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory
      and another canine inspection that
      began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having
      been verified the following result:

      03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
      compartment of the car;

      04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
      which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the
      Budget rental company.

      In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
      map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
      and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
      park.

      At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
      System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

      At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
      key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.

      At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
      System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

      08-Processo Volume 8 pages 2186 to 2188
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

      Done it again Carana, great minds etc.   However I don't think even constant repetition of the facts are ever going to be recognised ... no fun in that.
      [/list]
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 02:24:05 PM
      If you are unwilling to take what Mr Grime says about Eddie's alert in the Renault I am very sorry, but nothing anyone on this forum or elsewhere has to say is going to overcome the level of prejudice and denial you are suffering from so forgive me for stating the obvious yet again.

      Mr Grime just cannot make it any clearer that Eddie did not alert to cadaver odour in the Renault

      Do you really think Mr Grime and the PJ were too stupid to verify what Eddie was or was not alerting to by ensuring him access to the car once Keela had detected blood to ensure it was checked out and either ruled in or eliminated for cadaver scent.

      In fact when Eddie was introduced to parking level 3 and had the choice to alert either to the car or to the key fob ... what did he choose?
      Unless you choose to disregard Mr Grime's statement ... Eddie alerted to the key fob ... Eddie did not alert to the Renault ... therefore Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent, Madeleine McCann's or anyone else's.



      **Snip
      (Eddie)
      15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
      and Kate McCann.


      (Keela)
      Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having been verified the following result:

      03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
      compartment of the car;
      04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the Budget rental company.

      In order to confirm that the dog (EDDIE) had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park.
      At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

      (Eddie)
      At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
      At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
      ... the present document has been duly signed:
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

      Eddie marked the car key.  Nothing else. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 25, 2015, 02:30:13 PM
      Thank you Carana

      A number of posters make the point that the forensics were "Inconclusive" as though this adds some weight to their argument about the forensic results.

      It may be interesting to debate what members here think "Inconclusive" actually means.

      To kick this off, here is Vocabulary.com definition
      ____________________

      If something's inconclusive, that means it doesn't lead to a conclusion or a resolution. Inconclusive often describes scientific results. If your data about a flu outbreak is inconclusive, then your results don't prove anything.

      A good way to remember the meaning of inconclusive is to look at the root word conclusive, which means "definitive, decisive, and convincing." When you add in- — which means "not" — to the front of conclusive, you get a word that means "not definitive." When something's inconclusive, it doesn't resolve your questions and leaves room for debate. If you're a detective, the last thing you want to hear is that your evidence is inconclusive.
      ___________

      http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/inconclusive

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 25, 2015, 02:33:37 PM
      We do indeed but you failed to address to my question. If it were that cut and dried why take another nine months to lift the arguido status.
      As for my attention span it is longer than your ability to make a post without a sneer  8(0(*

      Then it must be your comprehension which is at fault if your attention span is fine.

      In my opinion and that of many at the time ... the initial error was the fact that the Drs McCann had been constituted arguidos in haste perhaps with the forthcoming deadline for the necessity to have proof to enable such a step to be taken was looming.


      Quote from Carana
      If you meant why the McCanns continued to be arguidos (as did Murat, whom you forgot), it's because in the Portuguese system arguido status remains in place until the end of the investigative phase. If charges are brought at the end of that time, those charged retain arguido status for the next phases. It becomes extinct for those not charged or if the case is shelved.
      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6311.msg265965#msg265965
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 02:35:21 PM
      Thank you Carana

      A number of posters make the point that the forensics were "Inconclusive" as though this adds some weight to their argument about the forensic results.

      It may be interesting to debate what members here think "Inconclusive" actually means.

      To kick this off, here is Vocabulary.com definition
      ____________________

      If something's inconclusive, that means it doesn't lead to a conclusion or a resolution. Inconclusive often describes scientific results. If your data about a flu outbreak is inconclusive, then your results don't prove anything.

      A good way to remember the meaning of inconclusive is to look at the root word conclusive, which means "definitive, decisive, and convincing." When you add in- — which means "not" — to the front of conclusive, you get a word that means "not definitive." When something's inconclusive, it doesn't resolve your questions and leaves room for debate. If you're a detective, the last thing you want to hear is that your evidence is inconclusive.
      ___________

      http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/inconclusive

      So it doesn't mean the McCanns are guilty, then?

      I'm devastated .....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2015, 02:41:14 PM
      Thank you Carana

      A number of posters make the point that the forensics were "Inconclusive" as though this adds some weight to their argument about the forensic results.

      It may be interesting to debate what members here think "Inconclusive" actually means.

      To kick this off, here is Vocabulary.com definition
      ____________________

      If something's inconclusive, that means it doesn't lead to a conclusion or a resolution. Inconclusive often describes scientific results. If your data about a flu outbreak is inconclusive, then your results don't prove anything.

      A good way to remember the meaning of inconclusive is to look at the root word conclusive, which means "definitive, decisive, and convincing." When you add in- — which means "not" — to the front of conclusive, you get a word that means "not definitive." When something's inconclusive, it doesn't resolve your questions and leaves room for debate. If you're a detective, the last thing you want to hear is that your evidence is inconclusive.
      ___________

      http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/inconclusive

      And as a detective you most certainly don't want to hear that the results of the forensics tests were CONCLUSIVE and your suspect was categorically ruled out of any criminality.

      But that didn't happen here, did it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 02:43:20 PM
      And as a detective you most certainly don't want to hear that the results of the forensics tests were CONCLUSIVE and your suspect was categorically ruled out of any criminality.

      But that didn't happen here, did it.

      Has it happened EVER?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 02:46:04 PM
      Being thorough ? He didn't question Murat or anyone connected to him even though he was also an arguido, so not especially thorough, and the reconstitution was his idea not Amaral's. It seems he also thought the timeline didn't work.
      OK, you've convinced me -  Rebelo wasn't thorough, he was slip-shod and conducted an inadequate investigation, same as his predecessor.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 02:48:46 PM
      And as a detective you most certainly don't want to hear that the results of the forensics tests were CONCLUSIVE and your suspect was categorically ruled out of any criminality.

      But that didn't happen here, did it.
      How could forensics have proved the McCanns DIDN'T chuck their daughter's body is a bin as you believe?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2015, 02:50:26 PM
      OK, you've convinced me -  Rebelo wasn't thorough, he was slip-shod and conducted an inadequate investigation, same as his predecessor.

      So two investigation co-ordinaters where slipshod and conducted an inadequate investigation. My, my the McCanns really were a very unlucky couple, weren't they!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2015, 02:53:24 PM
      How could forensics have proved the McCanns DIDN'T chuck their daughter's body is a bin as you believe?

      By proving that someone else did but there seems to be no forensic evidence, not even inconclusive evidence, that any one else was involved in the disappearance of their daughter.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 25, 2015, 02:54:11 PM
      And as a detective you most certainly don't want to hear that the results of the forensics tests were CONCLUSIVE and your suspect was categorically ruled out of any criminality.

      But that didn't happen here, did it.

      As you well know, Faith, forensics do not work that way.  You cannot PROVE a negative in this context. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 02:55:24 PM
      So two investigation co-ordinaters where slipshod and conducted an inadequate investigation. My, my the McCanns really were a very unlucky couple, weren't they!
      Whereas I suppose in your view you think they were really, really lucky.  But then that's the difference between "sceptics" and everyone else.  The McCanns were EXTREMEMLY unlucky - to lose a child, to have the disappearance investigated by incompetents, to have their names and reputations dragged through the mud by the media and the online rabble.  Of course they were a very unlucky couple, only a fool could think otherwise.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 02:55:59 PM
       not even inconclusive evidence, ...

      An oxymoron.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 02:57:24 PM
      By proving that someone else did but there seems to be no forensic evidence, not even inconclusive evidence, that any one else was involved in the disappearance of their daughter.
      What forensic evidence would prove someone else dumped her body in a bin?  Was it looked for?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 25, 2015, 03:01:54 PM
      If you are unwilling to take what Mr Grime says about Eddie's alert in the Renault I am very sorry, but nothing anyone on this forum or elsewhere has to say is going to overcome the level of prejudice and denial you are suffering from so forgive me for stating the obvious yet again.

      Mr Grime just cannot make it any clearer that Eddie did not alert to cadaver odour in the Renault

      Do you really think Mr Grime and the PJ were too stupid to verify what Eddie was or was not alerting to by ensuring him access to the car once Keela had detected blood to ensure it was checked out and either ruled in or eliminated for cadaver scent.

      In fact when Eddie was introduced to parking level 3 and had the choice to alert either to the car or to the key fob ... what did he choose?
      Unless you choose to disregard Mr Grime's statement ... Eddie alerted to the key fob ... Eddie did not alert to the Renault ... therefore Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent, Madeleine McCann's or anyone else's.



      **Snip
      (Eddie)
      15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
      and Kate McCann.


      (Keela)
      Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having been verified the following result:

      03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
      compartment of the car;
      04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the Budget rental company.

      In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park.
      At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

      (Eddie)
      At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
      At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
      ... the present document has been duly signed:
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

      Carana & you are just brilliant.  8@??)(

      Grime' own video on the beach showing Eddie locating the jar, containing 100 year old bone fragments, high up in the rocks proved distance from the source of scent was no obstacle.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 03:03:11 PM
      so forgive me for stating the obvious yet again.

      Mr Grime just cannot make it any clearer that Eddie did not alert to cadaver odour in the RenaultIf you are unwilling to take what Mr Grime says about Eddie's alert in the Renault I am very sorry, but nothing anyone on this forum or elsewhere has to say is going to overcome the level of prejudice and denial you are suffering from

      Do you really think Mr Grime and the PJ were too stupid to verify what Eddie was or was not alerting to by ensuring him access to the car once Keela had detected blood to ensure it was checked out and either ruled in or eliminated for cadaver scent.

      In fact when Eddie was introduced to parking level 3 and had the choice to alert either to the car or to the key fob ... what did he choose?
      Unless you choose to disregard Mr Grime's statement ... Eddie alerted to the key fob ... Eddie did not alert to the Renault ... therefore Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent, Madeleine McCann's or anyone else's.



      **Snip
      (Eddie)
      15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
      and Kate McCann.


      (Keela)
      Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having been verified the following result:

      03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
      compartment of the car;
      04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the Budget rental company.

      In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park.
      At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

      (Eddie)
      At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
      At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
      ... the present document has been duly signed:
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

      Is the highlight in red your way of deflecting the possibility that you could not justify your assertion below by addressing my challenges to it,...... apart from just one "cherry pick?"

      Just one ......really?

      Where`s the rest?

      Even your accepting that I am beyond hope you might at least give it your best shot for the sake of backing up your assertion !

      "Not one of the posters to whom you refer is voicing an opinion ... without exception all quote references to scientific studies ~ reports ~ including the comments made by Mr Grime. "


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 03:03:21 PM
      Being thorough ? He didn't question Murat or anyone connected to him even though he was also an arguido, so not especially thorough, and the reconstitution was his idea not Amaral's. It seems he also thought the timeline didn't work.

      the reconstitution was his idea not Amaral's..

      Erm... Why on earth didn't he organise one when as many people as possible were there in the very early days? He was head honcho in Portimão.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 25, 2015, 03:09:21 PM
      Is the highlight in red your way of deflecting the possibility that you could not justify your assertion below by addressing my challenges to it,...... apart from just one "cherry pick?"

      Just one ......really?

      Where`s the rest?

      Even your accepting that I am beyond hope you might at least give it your best shot for the sake of backing up your assertion !

      "Not one of the posters to whom you refer is voicing an opinion ... without exception all quote references to scientific studies ~ reports ~ including the comments made by Mr Grime. "



      Lets turn this on its head, Carew. 

      What do you think Eddie was alterting to in the Scenic, and what are your reasons?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 03:10:14 PM
      Is the highlight in red your way of deflecting the possibility that you could not justify your assertion below by addressing my challenges to it,...... apart from just one "cherry pick?"

      Just one ......really?

      Where`s the rest?

      Even your accepting that I am beyond hope you might at least give it your best shot for the sake of backing up your assertion !

      "Not one of the posters to whom you refer is voicing an opinion ... without exception all quote references to scientific studies ~ reports ~ including the comments made by Mr Grime. "


      Perhaps if you start at page one of this thread and work your way through it you will find quotes and references to scientific studies which back up the various claims.  I for one have linked to a study of unconscious handler bias on more than one occasion.  I have cited the case of Zampo the cadaver dog in Sweden on more than one occasion.  Do you want to do this all over again?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 03:11:22 PM
      Carana & you are just brilliant.  8@??)(

      Grime' own video on the beach showing Eddie locating the jar, containing 100 year old bone fragments, high up in the rocks proved distance from the source of scent was no obstacle.

      Ah.........so all is well with MG and his deployment this time then?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 03:21:11 PM
      Thank you Carana

      A number of posters make the point that the forensics were "Inconclusive" as though this adds some weight to their argument about the forensic results.

      It may be interesting to debate what members here think "Inconclusive" actually means.

      To kick this off, here is Vocabulary.com definition
      ____________________

      If something's inconclusive, that means it doesn't lead to a conclusion or a resolution. Inconclusive often describes scientific results. If your data about a flu outbreak is inconclusive, then your results don't prove anything.

      A good way to remember the meaning of inconclusive is to look at the root word conclusive, which means "definitive, decisive, and convincing." When you add in- — which means "not" — to the front of conclusive, you get a word that means "not definitive." When something's inconclusive, it doesn't resolve your questions and leaves room for debate. If you're a detective, the last thing you want to hear is that your evidence is inconclusive.
      ___________

      http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/inconclusive



      INTERPRETINGDNA TEST RESULTS
      DNA testing generates three possible results: inclusive, exclusive, and inconclusive. An inclusive result occurs when the DNA profile of a donor is consistent with the DNA profile from the crime scene evidence;the individual is included as the possible source of that evidence. However, the strength of inclusion depends upon the number of loci (locations on the DNA strand) examined and how common or rare the resulting DNA profile is in the general population.

      An exclusive result occurs when the DNA profile from a donor is inconsistent with the DNA profile generated from the crime scene evidence; the individual is excluded as the donor of the evidence. However, exclusion does not imply innocence. Other evidence collected at the crime scene may link the suspect to the crime.

      Inconclusive results occur when the DNA testing does not include nor exclude an individual as the source of the DNA evidence. This can occur when the quality or quantity of the DNA evidence is not sufficient to produce interpretable results, or if the evidentiary sample contains a mixture of DNA from several individuals. In the case of inconclusive results, additional testing may be necessary or additional evidence may need to be collected and examined.

      http://www.lawtechgroup.com/samplechapters/ForensicStudies.pdf
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 03:27:16 PM
      Carana & you are just brilliant.  8@??)(

      Grime' own video on the beach showing Eddie locating the jar, containing 100 year old bone fragments, high up in the rocks proved distance from the source of scent was no obstacle.

      I'm not sure which video you're referring to, Misty. The only promo one that I recall was of a spot of blood being hidden for Keela while on walkies somewhere. There may have been others, though...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 25, 2015, 03:27:32 PM
      Ah.........so all is well with MG and his deployment this time then?

      Are you suggesting that the jar did not contain 100 year old human bone fragments?
      I don't have a problem with Eddie alerting, it's what he's alerting to & how it got there I have a problem with in Portugal - especially when the alerts are the basis of illicit financial gain.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 03:33:48 PM
      Are you suggesting that the jar did not contain 100 year old human bone fragments?
      I don't have a problem with Eddie alerting, it's what he's alerting to & how it got there I have a problem with in Portugal - especially when the alerts are the basis of illicit financial gain.

      I`m suggesting that you are happy with MG`s deployment on this occasion...........Which is what I said in my reply, wasn`t it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 25, 2015, 03:36:33 PM
      I'm not sure which video you're referring to, Misty. The only promo one that I recall was of a spot of blood being hidden for Keela while on walkies somewhere. There may have been others, though...

      IIRC it's on a documentary/video about HDLG. Grime is on a beach then hides an open jar of ancient bone fragments up in the rocks for Eddie to find. Sorry - I've lost all my links, but I'll try to find the link on Google unless someone else can post it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 25, 2015, 03:40:59 PM
      I`m suggesting that you are happy with MG`s deployment on this occasion...........Which is what I said in my reply, wasn`t it?

      It was a demonstration of Eddie successfully playing Hunt the Thimble when the viewer could see where the thimble was. I don't believe Eddie was anywhere near as competent as his US counter-parts but most of those aren't deployed for commercial purposes,
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 25, 2015, 03:42:06 PM
      Thank you Carana

      A number of posters make the point that the forensics were "Inconclusive" as though this adds some weight to their argument about the forensic results.

      It may be interesting to debate what members here think "Inconclusive" actually means.

      To kick this off, here is Vocabulary.com definition
      ____________________

      If something's inconclusive, that means it doesn't lead to a conclusion or a resolution. Inconclusive often describes scientific results. If your data about a flu outbreak is inconclusive, then your results don't prove anything.

      A good way to remember the meaning of inconclusive is to look at the root word conclusive, which means "definitive, decisive, and convincing." When you add in- — which means "not" — to the front of conclusive, you get a word that means "not definitive." When something's inconclusive, it doesn't resolve your questions and leaves room for debate. If you're a detective, the last thing you want to hear is that your evidence is inconclusive.
      ___________

      http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/inconclusive

      The letter from Lowe to Prior in the archiving process is good enough for me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 03:43:10 PM
      Lets turn this on its head, Carew. 

      What do you think Eddie was alterting to in the Scenic, and what are your reasons?

      Let`s leave it the original way up, instead.

      Have a bash at a few cites to explain the original post........otherwise you could be adding to this little niggle I have about cherry-picking propaganda going on.


       "Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

       Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

       How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

       Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

       Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

       Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

       Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

       A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

       It can work for propaganda purposes, though. "
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 04:08:30 PM
      The letter from Lowe to Prior in the archiving process is good enough for me.

      And me.

      Without searching for words of less than one syllable, I'm not sure how Lowe could have explained the findings in more simple terms.

      Explaining that mummy and daddy and other relatives each contribute DNA, and that a certain quantity of alleles can be expected to be shared by totally unrelated individuals, just isn't the stuff of an official report.

      That email comes across to me as if he was trying to be helpful in explaining the basics to people totally unfamiliar with basic DNA.

      But then Amaral managed to turn that on its head and more or less accused the FSS of fudging the results.

      Some of his questions as an "expert" don't even make sense...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 04:14:24 PM
      Let`s leave it the original way up, instead.

      Have a bash at a few cites to explain the original post........otherwise you could be adding to this little niggle I have about cherry-picking propaganda going on.


       "Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

       Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

       How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

       Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

       Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

       Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

       Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

       A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

       It can work for propaganda purposes, though. "

      Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

      If Martin Grime (or anyone else!) had the slightest suspicion that Eddie alerted to anything besides the key-fob, don't you think it would be a tad remiss for him/them not to say so?

      As it is, the report is firm and specific about what Eddie is considered to have alerted to:

      In order to confirm that the dog (EDDIE) had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park.

      Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

      Where is there evidence that Eddie alerted to any clothing at all?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 04:19:52 PM
      And me.

      Without searching for words of less than one syllable, I'm not sure how Lowe could have explained the findings in more simple terms.

      Explaining that mummy and daddy and other relatives each contribute DNA, and that a certain quantity of alleles can be expected to be shared by totally unrelated individuals, just isn't the stuff of an official report.

      That email comes across to me as if he was trying to be helpful in explaining the basics to people totally unfamiliar with basic DNA.

      But then Amaral managed to turn that on its head and more or less accused the FSS of fudging the results.

      Some of his questions as an "expert" don't even make sense...

      Amaral didn't even understand that the email from John Lowe to Stuart Prior was just that, an email explaining one result from his (John Lowe's) one and only! report ....

      NOT

      a preliminary report ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 25, 2015, 04:28:23 PM
      I keep hoping that some of you will accept official documents, realise that Amaral was barking up the wrong tree ... and be big enough not only to throw in the towel, but to publically apologise



      Would be good if some of you who were able, would make the effort ....  and like Brenda Ryan put right some of the harm that you have done.


      A very strong and caring woman is Brenda Ryan.  It cant have been easy switching sides when she realised her mistakes, but she did.  Then she went out of her way to try and make amends by publishing her blog supporting Madeleine and The Mccanns. 

      Can anyone remember the name of her blog?   It was very sensitive and well thought out, I would like to reread it

      Which official documents did you have in mind?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 04:32:13 PM
      The letter from Lowe to Prior in the archiving process is good enough for me.

      Your interpretation of the letter is what you are referring to by what I interpret from your posts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 04:38:14 PM
      Which official documents did you have in mind?

      Not sure about Sadie, but I would cite: the archiving dispatch, final PJ report, reports of Mark Harrison, the reports of Martin Grime (where he makes plain that uncorroborated alerts have no evidential value) and the report of PJ Inspector Dias where he analysed mobile phone traffic (and found no blame) and questioned why Eddie returned several times to  spots he (finally!) alerted to ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 04:41:07 PM
      The letter from Lowe to Prior in the archiving process is good enough for me.

      It may be good enough for you but that is neither here nor their....
      First thing is that the email seems to be a direct response to the questions.....could this be Maddie's DNA....so the email is being read out of context
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 25, 2015, 04:46:34 PM
      Let`s leave it the original way up, instead.

      Have a bash at a few cites to explain the original post........otherwise you could be adding to this little niggle I have about cherry-picking propaganda going on.


       "Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

       Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

       How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

       Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

       Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

       Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

       Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

       A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

       It can work for propaganda purposes, though. "

      We have all seen the reports. We have all seen Levy's videos.  So you have two possibilities here.  Either you think that Grime /Eddie were incompetent and missed the cadaver scent

      or somewhere there is some secret report with cadaver alerts and forensic finds in the car. Held back for some terribly secret purpose. 

      Either way I cannot help. Sorry.

      Sorry.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 04:58:21 PM
      We have all seen the reports. We have all seen Levy's videos.  So you have two possibilities here.  Either you think that Grime /Eddie were incompetent and missed the cadaver scent

      or somewhere there is some secret report with cadaver alerts and forensic finds in the car. Held back for some terribly secret purpose. 

      Either way I cannot help. Sorry.

      Sorry.

      Thankyou for addressing the forensic finds in the car.

      Any help with the rest of the questions in the whole post?

      The car was just one issue with the dog searches, but not to worry.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 25, 2015, 05:07:12 PM
      Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

      I would imagine and explanation is that the bathroom had been cleaned. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 25, 2015, 05:20:49 PM
      Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

      I would imagine and explanation is that the bathroom had been cleaned.

      To within an inch of it's life it would seem.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 25, 2015, 05:25:35 PM
      Thankyou for addressing the forensic finds in the car.

      Any help with the rest of the questions in the whole post?

      The car was just one issue with the dog searches, but not to worry.

      You have obviously been reading what members have posted without understanding what has been said.  Your apparent difficulty in accepting that the only dog alerts in the garage are those which related to a living human donor would seem to confirm that opinion.

      Therefore as far as I am concerned life is too short to attempt to address all the questions which have arisen in your mind.  I find when I am perplexed about something it is helpful to do a little reading on the subject.  I recommend some of the links already posted as a good starting point for you.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 25, 2015, 05:38:15 PM
      Your interpretation of the letter is what you are referring to by what I interpret from your posts

      "What I interpret".
      Hardly a definitive statement.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 05:41:39 PM
      Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

      I would imagine and explanation is that the bathroom had been cleaned.

      Thanks for the reply.....but it was suggested here that even cleaning would not eliminate the possibility of cross contamination from blood / fertiliser from the garden and other alert trigger contaminants which survive time and cleaning products ;...... could even be contained in a mop......... and which Eddie cannot be unlearned from reacting to.

      You appreciate my puzzlement....when he didn`t alert!

      It seems to only apply when posters want a convenient "reason" for an alert and the old blood and toenails are brought in to explain it away?

      Then we have the calling back  element of the handling  / encouraging and tapping around the bathroom.

      This would raise the alleged handler expectation/cuing and Clever Hans factors which are  used to explain away other alerts and backed up by quoting the non-expert Policeman Inspector Dias..........except that Eddie didn`t alert.

      You see the problem a person could have with the evidence of selective cherry-picking going on?





      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 05:50:03 PM
      You have obviously been reading what members have posted without understanding what has been said.  Your apparent difficulty in accepting that the only dog alerts in the garage are those which related to a living human donor would seem to confirm that opinion.

      Therefore as far as I am concerned life is too short to attempt to address all the questions which have arisen in your mind.  I find when I am perplexed about something it is helpful to do a little reading on the subject.  I recommend some of the links already posted as a good starting point for you.


      Oh do give the mean-spiritedness a rest, Brietta.

      The emboldened comment is about the only part of your post worth bothering with.





      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 05:50:17 PM
      Thanks for the reply.....but it was suggested here that even cleaning would not eliminate the possibility of cross contamination from blood / fertiliser from the garden and other alert trigger contaminants which survive time and cleaning products ;...... could even be contained in a mop......... and which Eddie cannot be unlearned from reacting to.

      You appreciate my puzzlement....when he didn`t alert!

      It seems to only apply when posters want a convenient "reason" for an alert and the old blood and toenails are brought in to explain it away?

      Then we have the calling back  element of the handling  / encouraging and tapping around the bathroom.

      This would raise the alleged handler expectation/cuing and Clever Hans factors which are  used to explain away other alerts and backed up by quoting the non-expert Policeman Inspector Dias..........except that Eddie didn`t alert.

      You see the problem a person could have with the evidence of selective cherry-picking going on?

      Why do you suppose Mark Harrison said this right towards the end of his final report?

      During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.



      And why do you suppose Harrison never reached a firm conclusion about whether Madeleine was alive or dead?

      That's not cherry-picking.

      That's summarising, accurately and completely, the thoughts of a true expert.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 05:53:27 PM
      Thanks for the reply.....but it was suggested here that even cleaning would not eliminate the possibility of cross contamination from blood / fertiliser from the garden and other alert trigger contaminants which survive time and cleaning products ;...... could even be contained in a mop......... and which Eddie cannot be unlearned from reacting to.

      You appreciate my puzzlement....when he didn`t alert!

      It seems to only apply when posters want a convenient "reason" for an alert and the old blood and toenails are brought in to explain it away?

      Then we have the calling back  element of the handling  / encouraging and tapping around the bathroom.

      This would raise the alleged handler expectation/cuing and Clever Hans factors which are  used to explain away other alerts and backed up by quoting the non-expert Policeman Inspector Dias..........except that Eddie didn`t alert.

      You see the problem a person could have with the evidence of selective cherry-picking going on?
      I don't know if Eddie would react to a toenail but we know he did react to dried blood - so, what's your problem exactly?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 06:01:40 PM
      Carew seems to be under the impression that she is discussing this issue with one amorphous blob of a McCann worshipper, not several different people, all with shades of opinion about the dog alerts.  At the end of the day though none of our opinions (or those of the "sceptics") are really worth a hill of beans.  We will NEVER know exactly what the dog did or did not alert to, or why - we DO know that no evidence to implicate the McCanns was discovered at any point where the dogs alerted, and that no one who matters (ie: the authorities, the Met etc) sets much store by them now.  Why can that not be accepted by all and why can't we ever move on from this?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 06:02:19 PM
      Why do you suppose Mark Harrison said this right towards the end of his final report?

      During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.



      And why do you suppose Harrison never reached a firm conclusion about whether Madeleine was alive or dead?

      That's not cherry-picking.

      That's summarising, accurately and completely, the thoughts of a true expert.


      Shall we not be reading about Inspector Dias.........about Clever Hans.........handler expectation/cuing..........pig-fertiliser and other contaminants Eddie couldn`t unlearn......"work-mode".....and sundry other aspects, then...

      ..........since they and the reports/cites which have been used to back them are cherry-picked to suit the prejudice of the poster?

      Is that about right?



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 06:05:56 PM
      Carew seems to be under the impression that she is discussing this issue with one amorphous blob of a McCann worshipper, not several different people, all with shades of opinion about the dog alerts.  At the end of the day though none of our opinions (or those of the "sceptics") are really worth a hill of beans.  We will NEVER know exactly what the dog did or did not alert to, or why - we DO know that no evidence to implicate the McCanns was discovered at any point where the dogs alerted, and that no one who matters (ie: the authorities, the Met etc) sets much store by them now.  Why can that not be accepted by all and why can't we ever move on from this?

      Why indeed?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 06:07:34 PM
      I don't know if Eddie would react to a toenail but we know he did react to dried blood - so, what's your problem exactly?

      Oh tuts.........you obviously haven`t read up on your mops and the McCann bathroom factor!

      Take your own and Brietta`s advice to me.........back to page 1 and work through all those cites pasted up to support your collective assertions about the dog searches.

      oooops!




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 06:08:31 PM

      Shall we not be reading about Inspector Dias.........about Clever Hans.........handler expectation/cuing..........pig-fertiliser and other contaminants Eddie couldn`t unlearn......"work-mode".....and sundry other aspects, then...

      ..........since they and the reports/cites which have been used to back them are cherry-picked to suit the prejudice of the poster?

      Is that about right?

      I was asking you to comment on the thoughts of Mark Harrison (not an unreasonable request, I don't think).

      You've not really done that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 06:10:44 PM

      Shall we not be reading about Inspector Dias.........about Clever Hans.........handler expectation/cuing..........pig-fertiliser and other contaminants Eddie couldn`t unlearn......"work-mode".....and sundry other aspects, then...

      ..........since they and the reports/cites which have been used to back them are cherry-picked to suit the prejudice of the poster?

      Is that about right?
      There is no prejudice, only individuals seeking explanations and understanding of what is obviously quite an inexact science.  Would you prefer it if we all agreed that the dog alerts were 100% correct, no questions asked?  Would that be the correct course of action in your view?  Is it wrong to draw on such reports and studies as have been discussed here?  Would you like us all to shut up and accept something which even Martin Grime does not make claim to - that Madeleine died in the apartment and her parents covered up her death?  Would that make you happy? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 06:12:22 PM
      Oh tuts.........you obviously haven`t read up on your mops and the McCann bathroom factor!

      Take your own and Brietta`s advice to me.........back to page 1 and work through all those cites pasted up to support your collective assertions about the dog searches.

      oooops!

      As I said just now:

      "Carew seems to be under the impression that she is discussing this issue with one amorphous blob of a McCann worshipper, not several different people, all with shades of opinion about the dog alerts". 

      PS: It is not name-calling to say that I find the tone of your posts extremely facetious, the above one being no exception.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 25, 2015, 06:14:51 PM
      Because, in a nutshell, the McCann "sceptics" have to find something to justify 8 years of accusing the McCanns of sundry crimes, and when it comes down to it, the dog alerts are the only thing.

      Myself, I started off neutral, and having read extensively, and thoughtfully, I have come to the conclusion that the Madeleine was an unfortunate victim of an abduction.  And her parents are to be applauded for the strenuous efforts they are making to keep the investigation alive. 

      Not really the sort of thing a guilty party would do.  In my opinion.   
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 06:20:21 PM
      There is no prejudice, only individuals seeking explanations and understanding of what is obviously quite an inexact science.  Would you prefer it if we all agreed that the dog alerts were 100% correct, no questions asked?  Would that be the correct course of action in your view?  Is it wrong to draw on such reports and studies as have been discussed here?  Would you like us all to shut up and accept something which even Martin Grime does not make claim to - that Madeleine died in the apartment and her parents covered up her death?  Would that make you happy?


      To borrow a quote by you  and secure in the knowledge that it isn`t considered rude here :-

                      "you really have no idea at all. "

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 06:24:55 PM
      The questions that Alfred asks are all pertinent.

      The research that shows the influence the way a dog is handled can have over whether a dog alerts certainly apply to the (shelved) investigation.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 06:33:39 PM

      To borrow a quote by you  and secure in the knowledge that it isn`t considered rude here :-

                      "you really have no idea at all. "

      No, I really don't because you didn't answer any of my questions!  Perhaps as I am clueless you could enlighten me?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 06:34:02 PM
      The questions that Alfred asks are all pertinent.

      The research that shows the influence the way a dog is handled can have over whether a dog alerts certainly apply to the (shelved) investigation.

      Context, Ferryman.....Keep up.

      No need to leap to the defence.....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 06:34:29 PM
      @Carew:

      Why, in your opinion, did Grime wear the anti-cross contamination gear of his trade only for the inspection of vehicles?

      Do you think it irrelevant that Grime was given that video so that he could use it to promote himself in future assignments?

      Why do you think Harrison declined to acknowledge the input of Grime and his dogs in both inspections at villa and gym?

      Why did Harrison wait until after both those inspections to hand PJ personnel with translated instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles?

      Or are these all questions we should simply ignore/brush under the carpet?

      (Edited for spelling)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 06:42:09 PM
      As I said just now:

      "Carew seems to be under the impression that she is discussing this issue with one amorphous blob of a McCann worshipper, not several different people, all with shades of opinion about the dog alerts". 

      PS: It is not name-calling to say that I find the tone of your posts extremely facetious, the above one being no exception.
      [/b]

      Whatever you care to call it perhaps you`d better get used to it?   &%+((£


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 06:48:02 PM
      [/b]

      Whatever you care to call it perhaps you`d better get used to it?   &%+((£
      Personally I think it would lead to a more pleasant and productive (not to mention more grown-up) discussion if your dropped the facetiousness, but your call.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 25, 2015, 06:52:03 PM
      Why do you suppose Mark Harrison said this right towards the end of his final report?

      During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.



      And why do you suppose Harrison never reached a firm conclusion about whether Madeleine was alive or dead?

      That's not cherry-picking.

      That's summarising, accurately and completely, the thoughts of a true expert.

      Good points, FM.

      From Harrison:

      Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

      That does seem to be the bottom line, ignored by some for years.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 07:03:48 PM
      Good points, FM.

      From Harrison:

      Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

      That does seem to be the bottom line, ignored by some for years.

      Yes, it would be interesting to know which part of the above statement by Harrison that Stephen, Carew, etc disagree with and then maybe we can proceed from there?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 07:07:34 PM
      Personally I think it would lead to a more pleasant and productive (not to mention more grown-up) discussion if your dropped the facetiousness, but your call.

      Pardon me???

      In your post lies the fundamental problem.......

      Some want their own way ; to discuss on their terms ; to dictate not only what should be questioned but when a person should answer.......alter someone else`s MO or style but not their own.......... dictatorial......

      ........even deciding what constitutes "grown up" with apparently no self awareness.   8(>((

      I`ve no interest in accommodating your requirements.




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 07:09:16 PM
      Blinkered – My god I was blindfolded
      I know there is a lot of tweets from people going on about what happened pre-arguido days and it seems that they are  living back in 2007 before the Attorney General said the McCanns along with Robert Murat did NOT commit any crimes and they were released from their arguido days.
      http://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/blinkered-my-god-i-was-blindfolded/

      Thank you Brietta.
      Somehow I must find the time to read those again
      http://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/



      Such a special woman Brenda Ryan.  She fought her side with vigour


      Originally a sceptic, she lead the fight with the 3A's. 
      But changed her mind when the files were released and she read them.

      Intelligent, she analysed them and realised that a lot of the stuff that she had been believing was propaganda and myths. 

      Just hot air.

      That there was no basis to suspect The Mccanns.

      Just like Jean-Pierre in his post above.  Also like lots of us.




      Being the decent, Justice-loving woman that she was, she was magnaminus and admitted her mistake   .... "Blinkered – My god I was blindfolded"  

      .... then set about trying to make amends


      HardLine tho some of you on here are .... after all the facts on documents shown here and absolutely NO EVIDENCE against The Mccanns,  you must be having serious doubts ...

      .... unless you dont want to take notice of the documents .... but want The Mccanns to be guilty?   



      In that case I have to wonder at your mental condition, You enjoy bullying?

      .... or whether you are involved in some way?



      ETA  Jean-Pierre and many of us have taken notice of the files and documents now available ....and acted accordingly.  Why dont you guys start analysing and thinking?  And backing off ?   Do the right thing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 07:13:40 PM
      Ah but therein lies the fundamental problem.......

      Some want their own way ; to discuss on their terms ; to dictate not only what should be questioned but when a person should answer.......alter someone else`s MO or style but not their own.......... dictatorial......

      ........even deciding what constitutes "grown up" with apparently no self awareness.   8(>((

      I`ve no interest in accommodating your requirements.
      Fair enough, I did say it was your call (so much for "dictating" to you).  It does seem to me that you would rather discuss your problems with me than the dogs now, so if you want to take this to PM rather than bore everyone else with your issues that would be grand (but no pressure, your call, entirely up to you, etc etc) 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 25, 2015, 07:15:44 PM
      Thank you Brietta.
      Somehow I must find the time to read those again
      http://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/



      Such a special woman Brenda Ryan.  She fought her side with vigour


      Originally a sceptic, she lead the fight with the 3A's. 
      But changed her mind when the files were released and she read them.

      Intelligent, she analysed them and realised that a lot of the stuff that she had been believing was propaganda and myths. 

      Just hot air.

      That there was no basis to suspect The Mccanns.




      Being the decent, Justice-loving woman that she was, she was magnaminus and admitted her mistake   .... "Blinkered – My god I was blindfolded"  

      .... then set about trying to make amends


      HardLine tho some of you on here are .... after all the facts on documents shown here and absolutely NO EVIDENCE against The Mccanns,  you must be having serious doubts ...

      .... unless you dont want to take notice of the documents .... but want The Mccanns to be guilty?   


      In that case I have to wonder at your mental condition, You enjoy bullying?

      .... or whether you are involved in some way?


      OFf TOPIC.

      Read the thread title.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 25, 2015, 07:18:32 PM
      Fair enough, I did say it was your call (so much for "dictating" to you).  It does seem to me that you would rather discuss your problems with me than the dogs now, so if you want to take this to PM rather than bore everyone else with your issues that would be grand (but no pressure, your call, entirely up to you, etc etc) 8((()*/

      Pardon me???

      Just move on.

      I have no problem with you.

      You get the answers your posts deserve.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 07:23:35 PM
      Pardon me???

      Just move on.

      I have no problem with you.

      You get the answers your posts deserve.
      I'm so glad to hear it.  Now, perhaps you'd like to give us your opinion of the Mark Harrison quote underlined by Carana above.  Was he wrong to write what he wrote, in your view?  CAN we infer that a cadaver was present in 5a from the dog alerts alone?  If not, then there must be a reason why the dog alerts cannot be considered as standalone evidence - what is that reason?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 25, 2015, 08:28:16 PM
      I'm so glad to hear it.  Now, perhaps you'd like to give us your opinion of the Mark Harrison quote underlined by Carana above.  Was he wrong to write what he wrote, in your view?  CAN we infer that a cadaver was present in 5a from the dog alerts alone?  If not, then there must be a reason why the dog alerts cannot be considered as standalone evidence - what is that reason?

      The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
      compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
      receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
      considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
      yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 25, 2015, 08:40:41 PM
      The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
      compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
      receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
      considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
      yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Surely there is another reason?  If dogs were 100% always right would the above even be an issue?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 25, 2015, 08:58:12 PM
      Surely there is another reason?  If dogs were 100% always right would the above even be an issue?

      At least part of the reason is that you can never be sure that a dog hasn't alerted to blood.

      I am somewhat out on a limb on this one, but it has long been my belief that US forensic canine program (for which Grime worked briefly) sought to overcome this by teaming up two dogs, one desensitised to the scent of blood, the other, trained to react to nothing else (so that the potential advantage of finding blood was not lost), so that an alert (by the cadaver dog desensitised to blood) could be accepted without corroboration as evidence of murder.

      Certainly in the Bianca Jones case (where Grime operated with Morse and Keela) uncorroborated alerts by Morse were accepted as stand-alone evidence of murder, and D'Andre Lane was handed a life term for the murder of his daughter.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 09:30:15 PM
      is this the article you are referring to Stephen
      http://aboutforensics.co.uk/detection-dogs/

      sorry stephen i seem to have missed you...is this the article  which is the basis of your claim
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 09:35:44 PM
      The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
      compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
      receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
      considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
      yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      if the alert cannot be proven then it cannot be accepted as a fact ...simple
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 25, 2015, 09:40:59 PM
      Surely there is another reason?  If dogs were 100% always right would the above even be an issue?

      dna evidence is not 100% reliable yet it is accepted as evidence. The alerts are not accepted because they are so unreliable...unless someone can give a better reason
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 25, 2015, 09:52:51 PM
      The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
      compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
      receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
      considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
      yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      Yep, but Eddie also alerts to dried blood from the living , doesn't he?

      .... and he was trained on pig, wasn't he?




      All the gobbledegook in the world doesn't change that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 25, 2015, 11:39:39 PM
      Yep, but Eddie also alerts to dried blood from the living , doesn't he?

      .... and he was trained on pig, wasn't he?




      All the gobbledegook in the world doesn't change that.

      Adrian Prout should have used that one (Eddie was alerting to blood!) but you can't fool a well trained dog's nose. Eddie goes in first to detect cadaver scent. No alert then the blood dog ain't used and Keela found none on the clothes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 06:29:15 AM
      Adrian Prout should have used that one (Eddie was alerting to blood!) but you can't fool a well trained dog's nose. Eddie goes in first to detect cadaver scent. No alert then the blood dog ain't used and Keela found none on the clothes.

      Adrian Prout is a poor example.

      Eddie alerted in the Prouts' main home and Prout murdered and buried his wife in an out-house several hundred yards away.

      And as to the point I underline, in PdL, Keela was deployed first in the gym (without alerting!); then Eddie was deployed.

      Why?

      More than that, I don't believe that Eddie and Keela were ever deployed together before PdL.

      Still, I have tended to give Eddie benefit of the doubt that Prout may have cross-transferred a death scent into the matrimonial home from his clothes after burying his wife.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 26, 2015, 08:57:49 AM
      Adrian Prout is a poor example.

      Eddie alerted in the Prouts' main home and Prout murdered and buried his wife in an out-house several hundred yards away.

      And as to the point I underline, in PdL, Keela was deployed first in the gym (without alerting!); then Eddie was deployed.

      Why?

      More than that, I don't believe that Eddie and Keela were ever deployed together before PdL.

      Still, I have tended to give Eddie benefit of the doubt that Prout may have cross-transferred a death scent into the matrimonial home from his clothes after burying his wife.
      But he didn't alert to the vehicle that was used to transport the body, first to the pub where Prout spent the evening and then to the burial site. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 09:07:26 AM
      But he didn't alert to the vehicle that was used to transport the body, first to the pub where Prout spent the evening and then to the burial site.

      Wasn't aware of those details.

      If that's right, then I was wrong (to give the dog benefit of the doubt) ...

      Are there any instances of Eddie and Keela being deployed together before PdL?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 26, 2015, 09:16:15 AM
      For starters...............


      Originally written on 7th June 2008

      Article by Dr Rosemary Claire Taylor MA MB BChir (Cantab)

      Olfaction, the act or process of smelling, is the primary special sense possessed by dogs. A dog’s sense of smell is a thousand times more sensitive than humans. Dogs have more than 220 million olfactory receptors in their nose, whereas humans only have 5 million. Specially trained dogs have been used to locate forensic cadaver material and disaster survivors. Highly trained dogs assisted the emergency services in the aftermath of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Centre on September 11th, 2001.

      Cadaver dogs need to undergo rigorous training. Prior to beginning a specialised training programme, these dogs need to have basic obedience skills. The cue a dog uses to indicate forensic material depends on the trainer. Some dogs are trained to bark to indicate cadavers, whereas others scratch at the area in the crime scene. Dogs are given a verbal cue to start searching, and directional cues such as “check it out” to indicate an area requiring a more detailed search.

      A variety of breeds can be trained to hunt forensic material. Bloodhounds, springer spaniels and labradors are commonly used. Trained cadaver dogs have the ability to detect decomposing bodies beneath running water, for example when a corpse is weighted down, and placed at the bottom of a river.

      I have done a thorough search of academic journals on this subject, and will present my findings as follows:
      1. Cadaver dogs are known as valuable forensic tools in crime scene investigations. Scientific research attempting to verify their value is largely lacking, specifically for scents associated with the early postmortem interval. The aim of our investigation was the comparative evaluation of the reliability, accuracy, and specificity of three cadaver dogs belonging to the Hamburg State Police in the detection of scents during the early postmortem interval.
      Carpet squares were used as an odor transporting media after they had been contaminated with the scent of two recently deceased bodies (bodies are all less than 3 hours old). The contamination occurred for 2 min as well as 10 min without any direct contact between the carpet and the corpse. Comparative searches by the dogs were performed over a time period of 65 days (10 min contamination) and 35 days (2 min contamination).

      The results of this study indicate that the well-trained cadaver dog is an outstanding tool for crime scene investigation displaying excellent sensitivity (75-100), specificity (91-100), and having a positive predictive value (90-100), negative predictive value (90-100) as well as accuracy (92-100).

      Reference:

      Cadaver dogs–a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares.

      Oesterhelweg L, Kröber S, Rottmann K, Willhöft J, Braun C, Thies N, Püschel K, Silkenath J, Gehl A.

      Institute of Legal Medicine, University Medical Center Hamburg, Germany.

      Notes on the scientific terminology in this study;

      Sensitivity means the number of correct detections out of 100. Here, all dogs managed to correctly identify 75-100 carpet squares out of 100. This is a good success rate.
      Specificity describes the number of false identifications. A sensitivity of 91 out of 100 means, at most, there are 9 false positives in a sample of 100 uncontaminated squares. This is a good specificity, much higher than cervical screening, which can detect far more false positives.
      The Positive Predictive Value can be defined as;

      In other words, out of 100, there are 75-100 true positives, and 0-9 false positives. A positive predictive value describes the percentage chance, if a sample is contaminated, that the dog will discover it. The value of 90-100 means that, out of 100 contaminated squares, at least 90 are correctly identified by the dog.
      The Negative Predictive Value can be defined as;

      In other words, out of 100, there are 0-9 false positives and 0-25 false negatives. A negative predictive value describes the chance that, if a sample is not contaminated, the dog will correctly identify the sample as clear of human remains. The study quotes a negative predictive value of 90-100. This means only 0-10 ‘clean’ squares are wrongly identified as contaminated by the dogs.

      Accuracy is the degree to which the evidence presented by the dogs matches known information about which squares were marked. The accuracy of dog detection is presented as 92-100. This means that dogs correctly identify carpet squares as ‘marked’ or ‘unmarked’ in at least 92 cases out of 100. This is an impressive accuracy score.
      In addition, I think it is important to consider that this is an experiment, not real life. In reality cadaver dogs are given more time to assess possible traces of human remains. Hence in a true police setting, cadaver dogs are more likely to give accurate information.

      2. Specially trained air scent detection canines (Canis familiaris) are commonly used by law enforcement to detect narcotics, explosives or contraband, and by fire investigators to detect the presence of accelerants. Dogs are also used by police, military, and civilian groups to locate lost or missing persons, as well as victims of natural or mass disasters. A further subspecialty is “cadaver” searching, or the use of canines to locate buried or concealed human remains.

      Recent forensic investigations in central Alberta demonstrated that the use of cadaver dogs could be expanded to include locating partial, scattered human remains dispersed by repeated animal scavenging. Eight dog-and-handler teams participated in a two-month training program using human and animal remains in various stages of decay as scent sources. Ten blind field tests were then conducted which simulated actual search conditions. Recovery rates ranged between 57% and 100%, indicating that properly trained cadaver dogs can make significant contributions in the location and recovery of scattered human remains.

      Reference:

      J Forensic Sci. 1999 Mar;44(2):405-8.
      The use of cadaver dogs in locating scattered, scavenged human remains: preliminary field test results. Komar D.
      Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada.

      This study was written in 1999. Nonetheless, in situations where there are scattered human remains, dogs identify them in 57-100% of cases.

      3. The detection of human remains that have been deliberately buried to escape detection is a problem for law enforcement. Sometimes the cadaver dog and handler teams are successful, while other times law enforcement and cadaver dog teams are frustrated in their search. Five field trials tested the ability of four cadaver dog and handler teams to detect buried human remains.

      Human and animal remains were buried in various forested areas during the summer months near Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The remains ranged in decomposition from fresh to skeletonised. Cadaver dogs detected with varying success: buried human remains at different stages of decomposition, buried human remains at different depths, and buried decomposed human and animal remains.

      The results from these trials showed that some cadaver dogs were able to locate skeletonised remains buried at a significant depth. Fresh and skeletonised remains were found equally by the cadaver dogs along with some caveats. Dog handlers affected the reliability of the cadaver dog results. Observations and videotape of the cadaver dogs during field trials showed that they were reliable in finding buried human remains.

      Reference:

      J Forensic Sci. 2003 May;48(3):617-21.
      Cadaver dog and handler team capabilities in the recovery of buried human remains in the southeastern United States.Lasseter AE, Jacobi KP, Farley R, Hensel L.
      Department of Anthropology, University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0210, USA.

      This is an impressive study. The salient points are that cadaver dogs can identify a corpse, or a piece of a corpse, which had been buried at a significant depth. This gives the dog handlers an opportunity to investigate a more ‘real life’ crime scene. Following a murder, it is normal for a criminal to hide any human remains, often by burying the corpse. It appears that these dogs can still detect the ‘smell of death’, when a body part is buried deep in a forest.

      - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/12/cadaver-dogs-how-reliable-are-they-at-detecting-death/#sthash.1xx3kVVt.dpuf
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 09:40:25 AM
      For starters...............




      When are you going to begin?

      With anything remotely relevant or applicable to the topic under discussion?

      We were discussing whether I was right to give Eddie benefit of doubt over his alert in the Prouts' main house when Prout murdered and buried his wife in an outhouse several hundred yards away.

      From what Alfred has posted, it seems I wasn't.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 26, 2015, 09:49:54 AM
      When are you going to begin?

      With anything remotely relevant or applicable to the topic under discussion?

      We were discussing whether I was right to give Eddie benefit of doubt over his alert in the Prouts' main house when Prout murdered and buried his wife in an outhouse several hundred yards away.

      From what Alfred has posted, it seems I wasn't.

      It was for davel 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 26, 2015, 10:51:25 AM
      Adrian Prout is a poor example.

      Eddie alerted in the Prouts' main home and Prout murdered and buried his wife in an out-house several hundred yards away.

      And as to the point I underline, in PdL, Keela was deployed first in the gym (without alerting!); then Eddie was deployed.

      Why?

      More than that, I don't believe that Eddie and Keela were ever deployed together before PdL.

      Still, I have tended to give Eddie benefit of the doubt that Prout may have cross-transferred a death scent into the matrimonial home from his clothes after burying his wife.

      Keela inspected the clothes first to rule out blood so if Eddie comes next and alerts it suggests cadaver odour.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 10:57:14 AM
      IIRC it's on a documentary/video about HDLG. Grime is on a beach then hides an open jar of ancient bone fragments up in the rocks for Eddie to find. Sorry - I've lost all my links, but I'll try to find the link on Google unless someone else can post it.

      Found it.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 11:00:25 AM
      Keela inspected the clothes first to rule out blood so if Eddie comes next and alerts it suggests cadaver odour.

      So why did Eddie not alert to any clothing in the villa he, apparently, "alerted" to in the gym?

      And is there any evidence of Keela and Eddie being deployed together before PdL?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 26, 2015, 11:01:10 AM
      Found it.

      [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHdPGyQt2M[/youtube]

      [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHdPGyQt2M[/youtube]

      Wont work Carana, cos there is an "s" after http

      Drop the "s" to

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHdPGyQt2M

      ... et voila it works!



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 26, 2015, 11:03:27 AM
      So why did Eddie not alert to any clothing in the villa he, apparently, "alerted" to in the gym?

      And is there any evidence of Keela and Eddie being deployed together before PdL?

      Eddie inspected the McCanns clothing in the villa ? Do you have any written or visual verification for that ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 11:10:50 AM
      Eddie inspected the McCanns clothing in the villa ? Do you have any written or visual verification for that ?

      Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose [the gym], attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 26, 2015, 11:57:10 AM
      So why did Eddie not alert to any clothing in the villa he, apparently, "alerted" to in the gym?

      And is there any evidence of Keela and Eddie being deployed together before PdL?


      Were the dogs given the opportunity to inspect the clothing actually at the villa, though?

      It doesn`t look like it from the report.

      Clothing was seized and boxed there, but there seems no report of the dogs actually having access to items of clothing until later at the gym.

      The report moves to the gym following the part I`ve snipped, below.

      Have I missed or mis-read something?


      *snip*
      Page 2097-2098
      Official document of search and seizure.
       Inspector: Joao Carlos
       Date: 02 August 2007
       Place: Rua das Flores, 27
       Officers: Tavares de Almeida, Vitor Matos, Joao Carlos, Carlos Dordonnat, Carla Brito (Interpreter)
       Consent given by: Gerry McCann
       Legal formalities having been observed a search was undertaken.
       The following describes in detail the number and quality of papers or detected objects, and the exact place of the same with the seizure declaration and indication of how they were packed up:
       - The present search was started at 18h00.
       - The residence comprised: entrance hall; a WC (01) on the left; twins' bedroom; visitors' bedroom with WC en suite; master bedroom [bedroom of the couple]; lounge; dining area; WC and kitchen.
       - All outside rooms [annexes] searched nothing was seized.
       - OBJECTS FOR EXAMINATION
       1. One (01) pink cloth toy, with yellow paws and ears and blue label, make "cuddle cat", with a third in wood and a green band, alluding to Fatima, that was found in the lounge on top of a large chair [armchair].
       2. Clothes, shoes, bags [hand-bags; suitcases] and travel bags [knapsacks] that were packed as follows:
       - Lounge, two boxes.
       - Master bedroom, two boxes.
       - Twins' bedroom, one suitcase.
       - Visitors' bedroom, one suitcase.
      3. Various papers.
       - One bible, bedside table of the master bedroom.
       - Two diaries and a notepad that was found in the cupboard of the master bedroom.
       - On pair of latex gloves, that was found in a drawer of a bedside table of the visitors' bedroom.
       - There being nothing more to record, the present activity was ended at 20h30.
       - This document is drawn up to ratify the truth of the above and it is going to be duly signed.
       (four signatures)
       =======================================================
       Page 2099

      Official record of the canine inspection at 18h14 on 2 August 2007 at the current residence of the McCann couple situated at Rua das Flores, 27, Praia da Luz, Lagos.

       The five participants are indicated as two PJ Inspectors; UK NPIA officer (Harrison); UK dog handler (Grime); UK English Springer spaniel (Eddy).

       The entire activity was recorded on video image and sound.

       As part of the residence search performed today at the above address, a canine search was also conducted.

       Thus, the activity started at the indicated time, all rooms at the address [property] having been walked through, the following result being confirmed:

       - 18h36 - the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour, 'marked' [alerted in] the area of a cupboard in the lounge, it being confirmed that the dog indicated a pink soft toy belonging to Madeleine Beth McCann.

       This document is drawn up to ratify the truth of the above and is duly signed.
       (two signatures)
       ===================

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 26, 2015, 12:02:31 PM
      Any help @ about 2.30

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 12:05:34 PM
      At one time, before fraudster Levy started tampering with the lighting of the inspection at the villa, it was possible to see, very plainly, clothing littered about all over the villa, on the floors, on the beds, on the chairs (etc.)

      All studiously ignored by Eddie.

      Eddie was only interested in the toy.

      Which he alerted to only after some bounder took it away from him and hid it in a cupboard.

      In short, Eddie barked and picked up clothing in the gym he ignored completely in the villa.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 12:10:26 PM
      Any help @ about 2.30


      Not sure what you're referring to at 2 minutes 30, but you can see the clothing littered about the villa throughout the video.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 26, 2015, 12:11:37 PM
      Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose [the gym], attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm

      Show the clothes Eddie later alerted to in the villa footage.

      'With respect to the cadaver odour on Kate's clothes, could it be undoubtedly affirmed that those clothes had been in contact with a cadaver'
      OR
      Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''

      There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      "I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for that meddling FBI and their dog!"

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 26, 2015, 12:14:07 PM
      Not sure what you're referring to at 2 minutes 30, but you can see the clothing littered about the villa throughout the video.

      It is around that time that he is searching wardrobes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 12:14:39 PM
      Show the clothes Eddie later alerted to in the villa footage.

      Mission impossible.  Eddie never alerted to any clothing (at least in PdL)

      Ah!  Ok thanks Anna.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 26, 2015, 12:16:58 PM
      At one time, before fraudster Levy started tampering with the lighting of the inspection at the villa, it was possible to see, very plainly, clothing littered about all over the villa, on the floors, on the beds, on the chairs (etc.)

      All studiously ignored by Eddie.

      Eddie was only interested in the toy.

      Which he alerted to only after some bounder took it away from him and hid it in a cupboard.

      In short, Eddie barked and picked up clothing in the gym he ignored completely in the villa.


      I used the report which you linked.

      The report doesn`t seem to record an inspection by the dogs of the actual clothing which was boxed / packed at the villa before the dogs were involved .

      Just items seized and boxed........presumably for a later inspection at the gym?

      There seems to be no written report of the "non alerts" to clothing inspected by the dogs actually at the villa, does there?

      No confirmation anywhere that the clothes alerted to at the gym were previously not signalled at the villa.




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 12:19:41 PM
      [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHdPGyQt2M[/youtube]

      Wont work Carana, cos there is an "s" after http

      Drop the "s" to

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHdPGyQt2M

      ... et voila it works!


      Thanks Sadie, I didn't check before posting.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 12:20:35 PM

      I used the report which you linked.

      The report doesn`t seem to record an inspection by the dogs of the actual clothing which was boxed / packed at the villa before the dogs were involved .

      Just items seized and boxed........presumably for a later inspection at the gym?

      There seems to be no written report of the "non alerts" to clothing inspected by the dogs actually at the villa, does there?

      No confirmation anywhere that the clothes alerted to at the gym were previously not signalled at the villa.

      The official written record, what I posted earlier.

      Why do you suppose Harrison tersely dismissed both inspections at villa and gym as PJ exercises?

      I'll tell you why.

      It was because he had nothing to do with either of them.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 12:46:03 PM
      This is the "sala comum" box area and the pillows on dining table prove it.
      There are IMO at least 4 piles of clothing in this photo
      On sideboard on your right under a sheet of paper is clothes items grey, green, red, white.
      Next pile to left is top down small clothes items yellow, green,yellow.
      Next pile to left has a grey clothes item on top.
      Also IMO is probably more items on chair.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 26, 2015, 01:17:38 PM

      I used the report which you linked.

      The report doesn`t seem to record an inspection by the dogs of the actual clothing which was boxed / packed at the villa before the dogs were involved .

      Just items seized and boxed........presumably for a later inspection at the gym?

      There seems to be no written report of the "non alerts" to clothing inspected by the dogs actually at the villa, does there?

      No confirmation anywhere that the clothes alerted to at the gym were previously not signalled at the villa.
      Were all the McCanns clothes taken for dog inspection, or only selected items? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 01:21:44 PM
      Were all the McCanns clothes taken for dog inspection, or only selected items?

      I don't know if there still is, but at one time, there was video footage of clothing being packed into cardboard boxes ready for transportation from the villa to the gym.

      I dare say fraudster Levy has edited all that out, now, same as he edited out footage of Eddie literally playing with cuddle-cat before Grime hid it in a cupboard ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 26, 2015, 01:30:54 PM
      I don't know if there still is, but at one time, there was video footage of clothing being packed into cardboard boxes ready for transportation from the villa to the gym.

      I dare say fraudster Levy has edited all that out, now, same as he edited out footage of Eddie literally playing with cuddle-cat before Grime hid it in a cupboard ....

      Everything is vanishing Ferryman.

      I wouldn't be surprised if someone is scouring these pages and looking at documents that help prove the Mccanns innocence, then deleting them or removing all the links.


      Some people are doing their best to try and get Kate and Gerry to take the blame.

      And of course, that helps Amaral as well as hiding the perps.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on August 26, 2015, 01:47:31 PM
      Everything is vanishing Ferryman.

      I wouldn't be surprised if someone is scouring these pages and looking at documents that help prove the Mccanns innocence, then deleting them or removing all the links.


      Some people are doing their best to try and get Kate and Gerry to take the blame.

      And of course, that helps Amaral as well as hiding the perps.

      I wouldn't go as far as say 'everything is vanishing' but I do remember viewing the videos and seeing the boxes with labels on them sitting in the gym.  I think the forum has photos of them somewhere so there is no dispute about that one.  I also remember seeing Eddie playfully toss Cuddles up in the air after dragging him out of the toy box.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 26, 2015, 02:27:36 PM
      I don't know if there still is, but at one time, there was video footage of clothing being packed into cardboard boxes ready for transportation from the villa to the gym.

      I dare say fraudster Levy has edited all that out, now, same as he edited out footage of Eddie literally playing with cuddle-cat before Grime hid it in a cupboard ....

      At 10:21 in the following video there is a brief glimpse through patio door of boxes being packed outside ???
      At 10:33 the table can be seen being cleared and packed ... Cuddle Cat is there too.

      At 11:59 and reprised at 12:43 appx one of Levy's less polished edits is in evidence.

       [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=782&v=c4NMYPsFKb8[/youtube]

      Don't know why the video isn't posting ... but it can be viewed at its link
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=782&v=c4NMYPsFKb8
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 02:45:22 PM
      At 10:21 in the following video there is a brief glimpse through patio door of boxes being packed outside ???
      At 10:33 the table can be seen being cleared and packed ... Cuddle Cat is there too.

      At 11:59 and reprised at 12:43 appx one of Levy's less polished edits is in evidence.

       [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=782&v=c4NMYPsFKb8[/youtube]

      Don't know why the video isn't posting ... but it can be viewed at its link
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=782&v=c4NMYPsFKb8
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=782&v=c4NMYPsFKb8
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 26, 2015, 02:58:17 PM
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=782&v=c4NMYPsFKb8

      My apologies if this is on the wrong thread, but I have forgotten which thread it is pertinent to now

      At 13.24 you will see Martin walking down the pathway past Madeleines bedroom

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=782&v=c4NMYPsFKb8

       Martin is a cop so almost certainly taller than most.  And the wall is about chest height as i said before.

      Thanks for the video link Pegasus. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 26, 2015, 02:58:35 PM
      I wouldn't go as far as say 'everything is vanishing' but I do remember viewing the videos and seeing the boxes with labels on them sitting in the gym.  I think the forum has photos of them somewhere so there is no dispute about that one.  I also remember seeing Eddie playfully toss Cuddles up in the air after dragging him out of the toy box.

      What about those vanishing funds which found their way into Correia's pocket?

      I remember seeing the video of Eddie playing with Cuddle Cat now all you see is CC falling out of the bin and lying on the ground.

      I also remember a video showing Martin Grime hiding a sample of his own blood for Eddie to find,  that has gone too.


      edited to add -  also there was a bit in a video where Eddie barked at a bin in one of the other apartments.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 26, 2015, 03:00:09 PM
      My apologies if this is on the wrong thread, but I have forgotten which thread it is pertinent to now

      At 13.24 you will see Martin walking down the pathway past Madeleines bedroom

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=782&v=c4NMYPsFKb8

       Martin is a cop so almost certainly taller than most.  And the wall is about chest height as i said before.

      Thanks for the video link Pegasus.

      Why does Eddie bark once in that video,   I thought he only barked when he alerted to something.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 03:03:18 PM
      Why does Eddie bark once in that video,   I thought he only barked when he alerted to something.
      That is breathing not barking Lace as he approaches apartment
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 03:15:17 PM
      I wonder who the second cameraman was in the car video?

      There's one cameraman (GNR PJ?) noting the numbers (in Portuguese) of the various cars and showing that the extraction fan had been turned off.


      1.17.05 ish man wearing green t-shirt, light trousers walking towards a bag.

      1.17.49 same man with what appears to be a camera following Grime.

      At some point in between the two, this person asks (in English) if it's ok to "go through", to which a reply (in English... Harrison?) says yes.

      This person seems to be the one in the reflection of the car videos.

      Whoever it is, it isn't Levy. He doesn't look like Paiva or TdeA, either.

      I don't recall ever seeing a photo of João Carlos, so no idea if it could be him or not.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 03:20:22 PM
      I remember seeing the video of Eddie playing with Cuddle Cat now all you see is CC falling out of the bin and lying on the ground.

      I also remember a video showing Martin Grime hiding a sample of his own blood for Eddie to find,  that has gone too.


      edited to add -  also there was a bit in a video where Eddie barked at a bin in one of the other apartments.


      It's still online (4.50 ish):

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 26, 2015, 03:58:19 PM

      It's still online (4.50 ish):


      Grime doesn't direct his dogs at all does he...?   &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 26, 2015, 04:08:44 PM
      Grime doesn't direct his dogs at all does he...?   &%+((£

      What does that mean? If Eddie bark alerts behind the sofa should MG then direct Keela to search the bathroom?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 26, 2015, 04:09:49 PM
      What does that mean? If Eddie bark alerts behind the sofa should MG then direct Keela to search the bathroom?
      What does it mean?  Well, watch the video.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 26, 2015, 04:13:00 PM
      What does it mean?  Well, watch the video.

      I've watched that video before. The handler can direct the search if he notices a change in the dog's behaviour and MG knows his dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 04:46:29 PM
      I've watched that video before. The handler can direct the search if he notices a change in the dog's behaviour and MG knows his dogs.

      MG knows a fast buck.

      But not necessarily a long-term (sustainable) buck ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 05:18:46 PM
      I remember seeing the video of Eddie playing with Cuddle Cat now all you see is CC falling out of the bin and lying on the ground.

      I also remember a video showing Martin Grime hiding a sample of his own blood for Eddie to find,  that has gone too.


      edited to add -  also there was a bit in a video where Eddie barked at a bin in one of the other apartments.
      He hides a rag with blood spots on, in a wall, for Keela to find.
      He hides one hundred year old dust from the pelvic cavity of a skeletised human, in a cliff, for Eddie to find.
      https://youtu.be/SmHdPGyQt2M
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 05:24:42 PM
      Eddie's reward was a tennis ball.
      Eddie found a tennis ball in apartment 5H see video.
      He did not alert. A very well trained dog.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 26, 2015, 05:34:34 PM
      Once again I am intrigued as to why Martin Grime is covered from head to toe in protective clothing on one occasion but isn't even wearing gloves on another.

      He is even wearing a mask over his mouth at one time - which I assume must be something to do with his breath?

      Bearing in mind that he must regularly come into contact with 'alertable material' when training his dogs - which apparently was an ongoing regular activity - could it be that he himself was a potential 'carrier' of cross contamination - and he is guarding against that by means of full protective clothing?      If so - why only on some occasions and not others?

      Hmmm - I'm mystified.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on August 26, 2015, 05:40:00 PM
      Once again I am intrigued as to why Martin Grime is covered from head to toe in protective clothing on one occasion but isn't even wearing gloves on another.

      He is even wearing a mask over his mouth at one time - which I assume must be something to do with his breath?

      Bearing in mind that he must regularly come into contact with 'alertable material' when training his dogs - which apparently was an ongoing regular activity - could it be that he himself was a potential 'carrier' of cross contamination - and he is guarding against that by means of full protective clothing?      If so - why only on some occasions and not others?

      Hmmm - I'm mystified.

      I can see the sense of wearing a full forensic suit in a protected crime scene but the inspections in PdL were far away from being that.  Basically it made little difference.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 05:40:48 PM
      Once again I am intrigued as to why Martin Grime is covered from head to toe in protective clothing on one occasion but isn't even wearing gloves on another.

      He is even wearing a mask over his mouth at one time - which I assume must be something to do with his breath?

      Bearing in mind that he must regularly come into contact with 'alertable material' when training his dogs - which apparently was an ongoing regular activity - could it be that he himself was a potential 'carrier' of cross contamination - and he is guarding against that by means of full protective clothing?      If so - why only on some occasions and not others?

      Hmmm - I'm mystified.

      I know the (single!) answer to all these questions .....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 05:47:43 PM
      I can see the sense of wearing a full forensic suit in a protected crime scene but the inspections in PdL were far away from being that.  Basically it made little difference.

      I don't get it either. Why the hazmat suit in the garage of all places, yet not in 5A, the villa,, nor even in the proximity of clothes in the gym?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 26, 2015, 05:56:30 PM
      I can see the sense of wearing a full forensic suit in a protected crime scene but the inspections in PdL were far away from being that.  Basically it made little difference.

      In that case surely it would have been essential when searching 5A.  But he only wore gloves.

      It doesn't look very comfortable to me, so there must be a good reason for wearing it IMO.

      What I would like to know is why he is wearing it.   Is it to protect the scene from contamination from himself, or to protect himself from contamination from the scene?

      And why would he need to cover his mouth?

      Any ideas Angelo?



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on August 26, 2015, 06:00:37 PM
      I know the (single!) answer to all these questions .....

      Why are you so antagonistic towards Grime, what did he ever do to you ferryman?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on August 26, 2015, 06:01:46 PM
      In that case surely it would have been essential when searching 5A.  But he only wore gloves.

      It doesn't look very comfortable to me, so there must be a good reason for wearing it IMO.

      What I would like to know is why he is wearing it.   Is it to protect the scene from contamination from himself, or to protect himself from contamination from the scene?

      And why would he need to cover his mouth?

      Any ideas Angelo?

      It was a pointless exercise in futility imo.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 06:19:04 PM
      Grime doesn't direct his dogs at all does he...?   &%+((£

      That clip comes across to me as more of a PR promo video than part of a documentary (if ever that was an extract from a longer video).

      On the other hand, in the course of general reading, I came across something that made sense to me (no idea where at the moment, not in the Cadaver Dog Handbook as far as I can see as I just checked): handlers are - hopefully - alert to potential visual clues and then get the dog to check out the suspect area.

      An imaginary scenario off the top of my head would be searching in the woods and finding a death mask in a tree. That would mean nothing to the dog, but might be a clue to the handler to get Brutus to have a good sniff around it. In broad terms, I don't have a problem with that.

      I do, however, find it to be an intriguing coincidence that Eddie happened to alert where team Amaral had photos that they found suspicious for some inexplicable reason: the sofa against the curtain when it was one of the most obvious places for anyone to have checked behind, and the bag / carry-on case that was in one photo but not in one taken later that day. It was hardly a secret that the PJ thought that the McCanns had disposed of her body, so the bestickered Grand Scenic was hardly a shot in the dark either. Heaven knows what the clothes inspection or even the Villa / CC was expected to reveal...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 26, 2015, 06:24:42 PM
      For starters...............


      Originally written on 7th June 2008

      Article by Dr Rosemary Claire Taylor MA MB BChir (Cantab)

      Olfaction, the act or process of smelling, is the primary special sense possessed by dogs. A dog’s sense of smell is a thousand times more sensitive than humans. Dogs have more than 220 million olfactory receptors in their nose, whereas humans only have 5 million. Specially trained dogs have been used to locate forensic cadaver material and disaster survivors. Highly trained dogs assisted the emergency services in the aftermath of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Centre on September 11th, 2001.

      Cadaver dogs need to undergo rigorous training. Prior to beginning a specialised training programme, these dogs need to have basic obedience skills. The cue a dog uses to indicate forensic material depends on the trainer. Some dogs are trained to bark to indicate cadavers, whereas others scratch at the area in the crime scene. Dogs are given a verbal cue to start searching, and directional cues such as “check it out” to indicate an area requiring a more detailed search.

      A variety of breeds can be trained to hunt forensic material. Bloodhounds, springer spaniels and labradors are commonly used. Trained cadaver dogs have the ability to detect decomposing bodies beneath running water, for example when a corpse is weighted down, and placed at the bottom of a river.

      I have done a thorough search of academic journals on this subject, and will present my findings as follows:
      1. Cadaver dogs are known as valuable forensic tools in crime scene investigations. Scientific research attempting to verify their value is largely lacking, specifically for scents associated with the early postmortem interval. The aim of our investigation was the comparative evaluation of the reliability, accuracy, and specificity of three cadaver dogs belonging to the Hamburg State Police in the detection of scents during the early postmortem interval.
      Carpet squares were used as an odor transporting media after they had been contaminated with the scent of two recently deceased bodies (bodies are all less than 3 hours old). The contamination occurred for 2 min as well as 10 min without any direct contact between the carpet and the corpse. Comparative searches by the dogs were performed over a time period of 65 days (10 min contamination) and 35 days (2 min contamination).

      The results of this study indicate that the well-trained cadaver dog is an outstanding tool for crime scene investigation displaying excellent sensitivity (75-100), specificity (91-100), and having a positive predictive value (90-100), negative predictive value (90-100) as well as accuracy (92-100).

      Reference:

      Cadaver dogs–a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares.

      Oesterhelweg L, Kröber S, Rottmann K, Willhöft J, Braun C, Thies N, Püschel K, Silkenath J, Gehl A.

      Institute of Legal Medicine, University Medical Center Hamburg, Germany.

      Notes on the scientific terminology in this study;

      Sensitivity means the number of correct detections out of 100. Here, all dogs managed to correctly identify 75-100 carpet squares out of 100. This is a good success rate.
      Specificity describes the number of false identifications. A sensitivity of 91 out of 100 means, at most, there are 9 false positives in a sample of 100 uncontaminated squares. This is a good specificity, much higher than cervical screening, which can detect far more false positives.
      The Positive Predictive Value can be defined as;

      In other words, out of 100, there are 75-100 true positives, and 0-9 false positives. A positive predictive value describes the percentage chance, if a sample is contaminated, that the dog will discover it. The value of 90-100 means that, out of 100 contaminated squares, at least 90 are correctly identified by the dog.
      The Negative Predictive Value can be defined as;

      In other words, out of 100, there are 0-9 false positives and 0-25 false negatives. A negative predictive value describes the chance that, if a sample is not contaminated, the dog will correctly identify the sample as clear of human remains. The study quotes a negative predictive value of 90-100. This means only 0-10 ‘clean’ squares are wrongly identified as contaminated by the dogs.

      Accuracy is the degree to which the evidence presented by the dogs matches known information about which squares were marked. The accuracy of dog detection is presented as 92-100. This means that dogs correctly identify carpet squares as ‘marked’ or ‘unmarked’ in at least 92 cases out of 100. This is an impressive accuracy score.
      In addition, I think it is important to consider that this is an experiment, not real life. In reality cadaver dogs are given more time to assess possible traces of human remains. Hence in a true police setting, cadaver dogs are more likely to give accurate information.

      2. Specially trained air scent detection canines (Canis familiaris) are commonly used by law enforcement to detect narcotics, explosives or contraband, and by fire investigators to detect the presence of accelerants. Dogs are also used by police, military, and civilian groups to locate lost or missing persons, as well as victims of natural or mass disasters. A further subspecialty is “cadaver” searching, or the use of canines to locate buried or concealed human remains.

      Recent forensic investigations in central Alberta demonstrated that the use of cadaver dogs could be expanded to include locating partial, scattered human remains dispersed by repeated animal scavenging. Eight dog-and-handler teams participated in a two-month training program using human and animal remains in various stages of decay as scent sources. Ten blind field tests were then conducted which simulated actual search conditions. Recovery rates ranged between 57% and 100%, indicating that properly trained cadaver dogs can make significant contributions in the location and recovery of scattered human remains.

      Reference:

      J Forensic Sci. 1999 Mar;44(2):405-8.
      The use of cadaver dogs in locating scattered, scavenged human remains: preliminary field test results. Komar D.
      Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada.

      This study was written in 1999. Nonetheless, in situations where there are scattered human remains, dogs identify them in 57-100% of cases.

      3. The detection of human remains that have been deliberately buried to escape detection is a problem for law enforcement. Sometimes the cadaver dog and handler teams are successful, while other times law enforcement and cadaver dog teams are frustrated in their search. Five field trials tested the ability of four cadaver dog and handler teams to detect buried human remains.

      Human and animal remains were buried in various forested areas during the summer months near Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The remains ranged in decomposition from fresh to skeletonised. Cadaver dogs detected with varying success: buried human remains at different stages of decomposition, buried human remains at different depths, and buried decomposed human and animal remains.

      The results from these trials showed that some cadaver dogs were able to locate skeletonised remains buried at a significant depth. Fresh and skeletonised remains were found equally by the cadaver dogs along with some caveats. Dog handlers affected the reliability of the cadaver dog results. Observations and videotape of the cadaver dogs during field trials showed that they were reliable in finding buried human remains.

      Reference:

      J Forensic Sci. 2003 May;48(3):617-21.
      Cadaver dog and handler team capabilities in the recovery of buried human remains in the southeastern United States.Lasseter AE, Jacobi KP, Farley R, Hensel L.
      Department of Anthropology, University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0210, USA.

      This is an impressive study. The salient points are that cadaver dogs can identify a corpse, or a piece of a corpse, which had been buried at a significant depth. This gives the dog handlers an opportunity to investigate a more ‘real life’ crime scene. Following a murder, it is normal for a criminal to hide any human remains, often by burying the corpse. It appears that these dogs can still detect the ‘smell of death’, when a body part is buried deep in a forest.

      - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/12/cadaver-dogs-how-reliable-are-they-at-detecting-death/#sthash.1xx3kVVt.dpuf

      We all know that dogs have a well developed olfactory system and as far as cadaver dogs are concerned if there is cadaver odour present the dogs will usually...but not always detect it.
      The study you have posted has been posted several times before and seem to be the only one of it's kind. In my opinion you cannot make a direct comparison with the PDL searches for several reasons.

      First it was a simple yes or no to the tile ...not a random search of an area
      Did these dogs also react to blood
      Did the dogs initially totally ignore scented tiles several times before being led back to the same tile several times before giving an alert, or did they immediately recognise the scented tiles.  Without that question being answered it is not correct to make a direct comparison
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 06:27:23 PM
      It was a pointless exercise in futility imo.

      I don't find searching for a body in or around PdL to be futile as the GNR weren't trained for a potential homicide and dumping scenario. However, it all seems a bit too late and, aside from the beach search, was restricted to arguido-related locations / items.

      Without digging up the whole of PdL, a few days more with a broader remit back in mid-May 2007 might have been more useful.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 06:30:17 PM
      I can see the sense of wearing a full forensic suit in a protected crime scene but the inspections in PdL were far away from being that.  Basically it made little difference.

      Exactly!

      And which video was Grime given so that he could promote himself in places like Haut de la Garenne?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 26, 2015, 06:30:28 PM
      I can see the sense of wearing a full forensic suit in a protected crime scene but the inspections in PdL were far away from being that.  Basically it made little difference.

      I agree, so what was the point of dressing up for that one inspection?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 06:38:12 PM
      Originally there was no intention to search the villa or the scenic.
      That decision was made after the dogs alerted at the apartment, on Aug 1st.
      If the dogs had not alerted in 5A, there would have been no search of the villa or scenic.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 26, 2015, 06:54:24 PM
      Why are you so antagonistic towards Grime, what did he ever do to you ferryman?
      Why are you so nasty about Kate and Gerry McCann - what did they ever do to you Angelo?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 26, 2015, 08:02:31 PM
      Why are you so nasty about Kate and Gerry McCann - what did they ever do to you Angelo?

      Could it be something to do with their behaviour?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 08:33:48 PM
      Originally there was no intention to search the villa or the scenic.
      That decision was made after the dogs alerted at the apartment, on Aug 1st.
      If the dogs had not alerted in 5A, there would have been no search of the villa or scenic.

      This is from Harrison's reported dated 25 July, so I don't think that's quite right, Pegasus.

      On 25-07-07 the PJ Director decided his officers would re-search some of the areas suggested within the report. He also decided the order of their priority. These were the accommodation the McCann’s and their friends have occupied in Praia da Luz, the villa and the grounds occupied by Robert Murat, wasteland that surrounds these locations and any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 08:42:31 PM
      This is from Harrison's reported dated 25 July, so I don't think that's quite right, Pegasus.

      On 25-07-07 the PJ Director decided his officers would re-search some of the areas suggested within the report. He also decided the order of their priority. These were the accommodation the McCann’s and their friends have occupied in Praia da Luz, the villa and the grounds occupied by Robert Murat, wasteland that surrounds these locations and any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared.
      Yes Ferryman - If you read that carefully it does not include the Scenic.
      "Any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared" includes a rental car hired by friends of JT/ROB but does not include the Scenic.
      The decisions to search the Rua Das Flores villa and the Scenic were made after Eddie alerted at 5A Aug 1st.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 08:53:51 PM
      Faced with the new matters brought to the file through the dog search reports above, based on Mark Harrison's report already on file, and which support that Madeleine McCann may have died inside apartment 5A, Ocean Club, Luz, Lagos, where she was on holiday with her parents and two siblings.
      The above reports state that the dogs alerted to cadaver odour and human blood inside the apartment, it already having been established that no death has occurred there previously.
      In point a) of the report we can infer the locations of cadaver odour as well as the presence of traces of human blood. Also at point f) we see that cadaver odour was detected in the garden immediately adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was signalled in the other places.
      In order to allow us to thoroughly examine this situation, which could have its conclusion through new evidence, it is requested for a voice record, legally sanctioned, specifically of two locations:
      1 - Rua das Flores, no 27, Vivenda Vista do Mar, Luz Park, Luz, Lagos (the present residence of the McCann family in Luz)
      2 - Hired vehicle used by the McCanns, the "Renault Scenic", number plate 59-DA-27.
      Further, and of no small importance, it is also requested that a magistrate issue search warrants for [the above two locations] to enable us to recover new items/clues.
      I ask that you consider the above and decide at your convenience.
      Portimao, 1 August 2007
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 08:55:31 PM
      Yes Ferryman - If you read that carefully it does not include the Scenic.
      "Any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared" includes a rental car hired by friends of JT/ROB but does not include the Scenic.
      The decisions to search the Rua Das Flores villa and the Scenic were made after Eddie alerted at 5A Aug 1st.

      Of course!

      "The suspect" must refer to Murat, because the McCanns were not made arguidos until September.

      And the McCanns did not hire the Renault Scenic until about 3 weeks after Madleine's disappearance.

      Good spot!

      Yep!

      You've got your finger on the pulse pegasus ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 26, 2015, 09:02:43 PM
      Yes Ferryman - If you read that carefully it does not include the Scenic.
      "Any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared" includes a rental car hired by friends of JT/ROB but does not include the Scenic.
      The decisions to search the Rua Das Flores villa and the Scenic were made after Eddie alerted at 5A Aug 1st.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm


      Date: 01 August 2007
      *snipped*
      Initial conclusion.

      To the coordinator of the criminal investigation.

      Faced with new elements revealed by the dog handling unit's search, attached to the report, and on the basis of Mark Harrison's report, there is every reason to believe that the small child Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A where she was spending her holiday with her parents at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Following the markings by the cadaver odour detecting dogs and traces of human blood inside the apartment from which the child disappeared, we have done further extensive research, revealing that there was never a death, or a body, notified in this same apartment before. In this report, several places were marked, signaling the presence of cadaver odour and human blood. In addition, we can observe that a cadaver odour was detected in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was detected in the other residences.

      It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code.

      So as to go further with this lead, of which certain results may reveal new evidence, we request authorisation to carry out further inspections, within the legal framework, in two distinct places:

      1 - Rue des Fleurs no...The McCann family's current residence in Portugal.

       

      2 - Rented vehicle Renault Scenic, registration ...DA - 27.

      We suggest that this inspection is entrusted to the PJ and ask the Public Prosecutor for a 20 day mandate. Thus, we consider that there are indications that consolidate strong suspicions according to which, there are elements of evidence of a crime, inside the vehicle used by the McCanns and, moreover, likely to reveal important details of fundamental importance for the investigation.

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Amazing how quickly they could get a search warrant when they really wanted to.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 26, 2015, 09:04:29 PM
      Yes Ferryman - If you read that carefully it does not include the Scenic.
      "Any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared" includes a rental car hired by friends of JT/ROB but does not include the Scenic.
      The decisions to search the Rua Das Flores villa and the Scenic were made after Eddie alerted at 5A Aug 1st.

      Jolly well spotted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 09:06:36 PM
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm


      Date: 01 August 2007
      *snipped*
      Initial conclusion.

      To the coordinator of the criminal investigation.

      Faced with new elements revealed by the dog handling unit's search, attached to the report, and on the basis of Mark Harrison's report, there is every reason to believe that the small child Madeleine McCann died in apartment 5A where she was spending her holiday with her parents at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz. Following the markings by the cadaver odour detecting dogs and traces of human blood inside the apartment from which the child disappeared, we have done further extensive research, revealing that there was never a death, or a body, notified in this same apartment before. In this report, several places were marked, signaling the presence of cadaver odour and human blood. In addition, we can observe that a cadaver odour was detected in the garden adjacent to apartment 5A. Nothing was detected in the other residences.

      It follows from this investigation that there are indications, in practice and in the facts, of the crime of murder such as defined in ArticleQI310 of the Penal Code.

      So as to go further with this lead, of which certain results may reveal new evidence, we request authorisation to carry out further inspections, within the legal framework, in two distinct places:

      1 - Rue des Fleurs no...The McCann family's current residence in Portugal.

       

      2 - Rented vehicle Renault Scenic, registration ...DA - 27.

      We suggest that this inspection is entrusted to the PJ and ask the Public Prosecutor for a 20 day mandate. Thus, we consider that there are indications that consolidate strong suspicions according to which, there are elements of evidence of a crime, inside the vehicle used by the McCanns and, moreover, likely to reveal important details of fundamental importance for the investigation.

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Amazing how quickly they could get a search warrant when they really wanted to.

      Confirmation that Peguses is right.

      And not Inspector Carols' finest moment, though I do believe him to be a fundamentally decent man.

      Thanks Misty.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 09:11:58 PM
      @Misty. Yes the warrants for the searches of the villa and scenic were applied for immediately after Eddie visited 5A, and granted very rapidly by a judge on the next day.
      But what happened to the warrants for bugging of villa and scenic?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 26, 2015, 09:26:31 PM
      @Misty. Yes the warrants for the searches of the villa and scenic were applied for immediately after Eddie visited 5A, and granted very rapidly by a judge on the next day.
      But what happened to the warrants for bugging of villa and scenic?

      I'm pretty sure the request was turned down.

      But I would need to track down the reference.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 26, 2015, 10:39:36 PM
      This is the "sala comum" box area and the pillows on dining table prove it.
      There are IMO at least 4 piles of clothing in this photo
      On sideboard on your right under a sheet of paper is clothes items grey, green, red, white.
      Next pile to left is top down small clothes items yellow, green,yellow.
      Next pile to left has a grey clothes item on top.
      Also IMO is probably more items on chair.

      There are two sections in the dog video scanning over the sideboard area. IMO at least the first pile you detail as clothes (grey green red and white) are papers and files....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 26, 2015, 10:45:20 PM
      The PJ did check that no-one had ever lain dead in Rua des Fleurs......didn't they?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 26, 2015, 10:56:01 PM
      The PJ did check that no-one had ever lain dead in Rua des Fleurs......didn't they?

      The cadaver dog did not alert there  so why should they?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 11:05:56 PM
      There are two sections in the dog video scanning over the sideboard area. IMO at least the first pile you detail as clothes (grey green red and white) are papers and files....
      Yes there are more footage of these piles on the sideboard from different angles near the end of the villa footage.
      Do you agree in that pile on right that the red folder or sheet of paper has a white area on it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 11:13:21 PM
      pillows and pillowcases and towels on dining table - not a usual place to find them - but there is an elementary explanation.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 11:15:13 PM
      In villa footage there is one chair at dining table and it gets barked  (2nd alert).
      IMO is seen corner of a red item on it ???
      Then at end of villa footage the chair is not there - why has chair been moved?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 26, 2015, 11:17:22 PM
      Yes there are more footage of these piles on the sideboard from different angles near the end of the villa footage.
      Do you agree in that pile on right that the red folder or sheet of paper has a white area on it?

      Peggy, I am not  going to spend my evening playing spot the red or white bit with you.The pile in the wardrobe did NOT show Sean's red aeroplane t shirt and the pile on the sideboard is papers and folders and files.
      I would agree with you if I agreed with you but the eye says no

       @)(++(*

      I know it must fit into some theory of yours but if I may say so you are barking up wrong trees on these particular details, try another if I were you. Or not. Up to you.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 26, 2015, 11:19:10 PM
      There pillows and pillowcases and towels on dining table - not a usual place to find them - but there is an elementary explanation.

      What's that then? The PJ piled up bedding and clothes all near each other? Maybe, but then again, maybe not
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 26, 2015, 11:21:30 PM
      The cadaver dog did not alert there  so why should they?

      Eddie alerted to Cuddlecat there (according to Grime).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 26, 2015, 11:26:11 PM
      Peggy, I am not  going to spend my evening playing spot the red or white bit with you.The pile in the wardrobe did NOT show Sean's red aeroplane t shirt and the pile on the sideboard is papers and folders and files.
      I would agree with you if I agreed with you but the eye says no

       @)(++(*

      I know it must fit into some theory of yours but if I may say so you are barking up wrong trees on these particular details, try another if I were you. Or not. Up to you.
      Ok try another - is it possible a pile of folded aired clothes is on the lonely dining chair?
      BTW why is there only one dining chair? Where are the other 3?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 26, 2015, 11:53:43 PM
      Eddie alerted to Cuddlecat there (according to Grime).

      Yes but hardly topart of the furniture or foundations!!!
      But to a piece of the Mccanns belongings NOT the same as flat 5 a
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 12:09:40 AM
      What's that then? The PJ piled up bedding and clothes all near each other? Maybe, but then again, maybe not
      They had been washed, then aired on the racks outside that balcony door, then brought inside IMO
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 27, 2015, 12:12:59 AM
      Yes but hardly topart of the furniture or foundations!!!
      But to a piece of the Mccanns belongings NOT the same as flat 5 a

      Cuddlecat was in the cupboard when Eddie allegedly alerted. Did the PJ obtain evidence that an ash casket had not been in or on that cupboard at any time?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 27, 2015, 12:16:29 AM
      They had been washed, then aired on the racks outside that balcony door, then brought inside IMO

      And piled up on the sideboard, where YOU see clothes, I SEE files and folders, as I said, not getting into this tiny crevice of thought UNLESS you flesh out your theories past  the pulling teeth out stage.....why DO you feel the need to stick out dribs and drabs? WHAT is it that stops you fleshing out your argument?

      Ps are you confusing 5 a with the villa? Washed and aired on racks outside balcony door?? Whatever





      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 27, 2015, 12:19:20 AM
      Cuddlecat was in the cupboard when Eddie allegedly alerted. Did the PJ obtain evidence that an ash casket had not been in or on that cupboard at any time?

      How remiss of them to not think of ashes in urns, as remiss as not understanding Eddie might have been alerting to the remnant scent of saliva or nappies or barbecued pork chops I suppose


      if this happened in the UK, well, you know, the police wouldn't be wondering if old urns were responsible!! you're having a bloody laugh
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 27, 2015, 12:34:01 AM
      Cuddlecat was in the cupboard when Eddie allegedly alerted. Did the PJ obtain evidence that an ash casket had not been in or on that cupboard at any time?

      The EVRD alerted to the missing girl's toy. You can't fool a clever dog. Have you seen Madeleine lately? Eddie has told SY the reason why unless you think they spend millions on a case searching for the body for the hell of it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 27, 2015, 12:51:17 AM
      Yes there are more footage of these piles on the sideboard from different angles near the end of the villa footage.
      Do you agree in that pile on right that the red folder or sheet of paper has a white area on it?

      Do you mean this Pegasus?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 27, 2015, 12:57:09 AM
      The EVRD alerted to the missing girl's toy. You can't fool a clever dog. Have you seen Madeleine lately? Eddie has told SY the reason why unless you think they spend millions on a case searching for the body for the hell of it.


      There are many photos in circulation of Kate clutching Cuddlecat against her clothes between 4th May & 2nd August. Perhaps you could explain how the clever dog failed to indicate the presence of cadaver scent cross-contamination on any of those clothes at the Vila Rue des Fleurs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 12:57:42 AM
      Do you mean this Pegasus?
      Yes the red folder?/paper? has a white logo?/title? on it.
      It looks too thick to be a sheet of paper IMO.
      And if it's a folder, why does it bend?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 27, 2015, 01:07:39 AM
      Yes the red folder?/paper? has a white logo?/title? on it.

      My eyes aren't too good, but new specs coming tomorrow morning. Thank god!
       
      What I can see is something red and then something green on top at front (a toy?) then something white on top of that and something grey on top, before a sheet of white paper.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 01:17:01 AM
      There is a bunch of bananas, or are people claiming that's a pile of yellow folders and papers?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 27, 2015, 01:55:10 AM
      The small green object on top of the flat red item in the foreground looks like a retractable utility knife to me, with the blade open.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 27, 2015, 07:26:14 AM
      Does anyone have an explanation as to why the dogs completely ignored objects several times that they later alerted to. If the dogs alert to a specific scent then why did they not alert to the objects several times
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 27, 2015, 08:29:13 AM
      Does anyone have an explanation as to why the dogs completely ignored objects several times that they later alerted to. If the dogs alert to a specific scent then why did they not alert to the objects several times

      I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

      Moving onto the other rooms once he's found what he thinks he's looking for in this room, and we go into the bathroom and come into this bedroom he loses his interest because he's actually found the source that he was looking for, until we come over here and I think you've got it on video that when he first came in he was quite interested in the sofa but he didn't have access to the back of the sofa and when he's gone behind the sofa what I saw was that approximately in the centre of the wall where the window is, just along the tile area between the tiles and the wall, he's been scenting there a lot stronger than he has anywhere else and the when he's gone out there the second time he has decided yes that's what I'm looking for and that's when he has given me the bark indication.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 27, 2015, 09:17:59 AM
      Any help @ about 2.30


      That is definitely a bark around about 14.13  not panting PF
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 27, 2015, 09:21:09 AM
      That is definitely a bark around about 14.13  not panting PF

      I never said anything and if you think that is a bark you should get your hearing checked out. The dog knocking into a chair and moving it is not a bark  @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 27, 2015, 09:25:08 AM
      I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.

      Moving onto the other rooms once he's found what he thinks he's looking for in this room, and we go into the bathroom and come into this bedroom he loses his interest because he's actually found the source that he was looking for, until we come over here and I think you've got it on video that when he first came in he was quite interested in the sofa but he didn't have access to the back of the sofa and when he's gone behind the sofa what I saw was that approximately in the centre of the wall where the window is, just along the tile area between the tiles and the wall, he's been scenting there a lot stronger than he has anywhere else and the when he's gone out there the second time he has decided yes that's what I'm looking for and that's when he has given me the bark indication.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      It makes no sense...if cuddlecat has cadaver odour eddie should alert immediately on contact...the alerts are meaningless
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 27, 2015, 09:28:37 AM
      I never said anything and if you think that is a bark you should get your hearing checked out. The dog knocking into a chair and moving it is not a bark  @)(++(*

      My apologies PF it was Pegasus,   it sounds like a bark to me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 27, 2015, 09:44:11 AM
      It makes no sense...if cuddlecat has cadaver odour eddie should alert immediately on contact...the alerts are meaningless

      Was one alert meaningless in the  Prout case? Eddie has many alerts in this one.

      "You will teach the dog to associate the smell of death with its toy by making the toy smell like death. Your dog should be exposed to, and trained to find, all sorts of dead bodies — on varied terrain, day or night, rain or shine."

      http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 27, 2015, 10:27:49 AM
      Was one alert meaningless in the  Prout case? Eddie has many alerts in this one.

      "You will teach the dog to associate the smell of death with its toy by making the toy smell like death. Your dog should be exposed to, and trained to find, all sorts of dead bodies — on varied terrain, day or night, rain or shine."

      http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0

      no evidential value...Martin Grime...circumstantial evidence ...stephen....someone's wrong
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 10:43:19 AM
      That is definitely a bark around about 14.13  not panting PF
      No that is not a bark at 14:13, and it's not panting.
      It is Eddie blowing his nose out to clear it.
      http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=14m2s

      You can hear Keela blowing her nose out and described by the handler here
      http://youtu.be/SmHdPGyQt2M?t=4m26s
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 11:10:27 AM
      The EVRD alerted to the missing girl's toy. You can't fool a clever dog. Have you seen Madeleine lately? Eddie has told SY the reason why unless you think they spend millions on a case searching for the body for the hell of it.
      Please post a still photo from the video, of Eddie's nose near the cat just before he barks....

      You can't, because that never happens.
      The secret technique is to observe carefully where Eddies nose sniffs just before he barks Pathfinder.
      Watch his nose - Alert 1 in the villa is to something on top of the sideboard
      Watch his nose - Alert 2 in the villa is to something on the seat of the lonely dining chair.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 27, 2015, 11:15:28 AM
      Was one alert meaningless in the  Prout case? Eddie has many alerts in this one.

      "You will teach the dog to associate the smell of death with its toy by making the toy smell like death. Your dog should be exposed to, and trained to find, all sorts of dead bodies — on varied terrain, day or night, rain or shine."

      http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/21/magazine/how-to-train-a-cadaver-dog.html?_r=0

      only having ignored the so called source of the alert several times before being led back...several times..before alerting...

      if the scent is there the dog alerts...if it isn't it doesn't....isn't taht how it should be
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 27, 2015, 11:22:15 AM
      Post a still photo of Eddie's nose near the cat just before he barks.
      You can't, because that never happens.
      The secret technique is to observe carefully where Eddies nose sniffs just before he barks Pathfinder.
      Watch his nose - Alert 1 in the villa is to something on top of the sideboard
      Watch his nose - Alert 2 in the villa is to something on the seat of the lonely dining chair.

      Different dogs  - different techniques as we have seen with the trained responses of Keela and Eddie.

      Some cadaver dogs lie down when they find a source, others sit and some bark.  However it does seem from what I have read that they do 'point' much in the way Keela did.

      I think the following quotation may address some of what you have said in your post ...

      **Snip
      We untrained masses see the dogs’ abilities, far exceeding our own, in a hazy supernatural fog: surely a dog, with his powerful nose, is noticing every scent—however slight—around him.

      Surely!

      Noses, alas, do not work that way.

      First of all, detection dogs need to “search,” to actively explore their environments, pressing their noses into cardboard, into the leg of your pants, into the canvas of a tote bag.

      They burrow their noses deep into a smell.

      Ever notice that your dog would rather make full-nose contact with another dog’s rump rather than smell it at a safe one-metre distance?

      The same principle is at work here.
      http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-limits-of-detection
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 27, 2015, 11:29:05 AM
      No that is not a bark at 14:13, and it's not panting.
      It is Eddie blowing his nose out to clear it.
      http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=14m2s

      You can hear Keela blowing her nose out and described by the handler here
      http://youtu.be/SmHdPGyQt2M?t=4m26s

      I can tell the difference between the dog blowing it's nose out and a bark and that is one sharp bark.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 11:32:27 AM
      I agree with Dave1 that Eddie never alerts to the cat.
      From this IMO come two important deductions-
      1. KM described the scene in the bedroom truthfully.
      2. The cat was left behind on the bed when the child left the bed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 11:40:06 AM
      I can tell the difference between the dog blowing it's nose out and a bark and that is one sharp bark.
      The noise at 14:13 is blowing nose out IMO http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=14m2s .

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 27, 2015, 11:42:30 AM
      That is definitely a bark around about 14.13  not panting PF

      The 'untrained puppy' pulling on the leash almost strangling himself behaviour shown by Eddie outside 5A is not in my opinion the behaviour one would expect from a trained working dog.

      Taken in conjunction with the loud frenetic panting emanating from Eddie while he was working has always seemed a bit strange to me and I think adds up to a boy who was having difficulty with the warm Portuguese climate.

      I have read in various places that a panting dog is not an efficient dog ... which seems a reasonable conclusion to reach and if you have ever been slavered over you will appreciate that ...

      **Snip
      Then there’s endurance: performance changes over time.

      Dogs get tired, and less reliable, as the day goes on, just as we might.

      As for conditions, odors change in the weather, and dogs do, too.


      When they’re panting, dogs don’t sniff as readily as they normally might; an overly warm dog, forced to pant to cool himself, has a less reliable nose.


      And while we don’t think of odors as seasonal (until, upon reflection, we remember: there is a smell of spring, of summer; the odors of winter are fewer), smells are more volatile in warm weather, and travel and disperse differently than in the cold.
      This too affects detection rates.
      http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-limits-of-detection
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 27, 2015, 11:44:32 AM
      The noise at 14:13 is blowing nose out IMO http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=14m2s .

      It's a bark.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 27, 2015, 11:56:05 AM
      It's a bark.

      It could also be someone moving a chair on a hard surface.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 12:13:13 PM
      It could also be someone moving a chair on a hard surface.
      Could be.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 01:17:28 PM
      Can anyone else see the red item on the dining chair which Eddie barks at in villa?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 27, 2015, 01:42:29 PM
      (http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/120227_a15918_g2048-600.jpg)

      “Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him—yet somehow I did not realize that he was a cow.”

      http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/02/27/beware-of-the-dogs
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 27, 2015, 02:02:32 PM
      It seems I hit the inner again!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 02:47:32 PM
      You can see footage of the villa earlier on the same day that Eddie visited.
      Panorama. There are lots of clothes being put on racks to air on balcony outside.
      Were these clothes still outside when Eddie arrived?
      Or had they been brought in through the balcony door and folded and stacked in the dining table area?
      What time did Eddie arrive?


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM
      Were they the wet ones the PJ had to retrieve from the full washing machine?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 27, 2015, 03:17:50 PM
      (http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/120227_a15918_g2048-600.jpg)

      “Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him—yet somehow I did not realize that he was a cow.”

      http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/02/27/beware-of-the-dogs

      Pure bullocks. 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 27, 2015, 03:27:06 PM
      Pure bullocks. 8**8:/:

      I don't even read her propaganda BS.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 03:31:51 PM
      http://youtu.be/Zqoj-pfBUnY
      Contains lots of footage of villa earlier on the same day as the dog video.
      Proven same day by "they're not here yet".

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 03:39:59 PM
      Were they the wet ones the PJ had to retrieve from the full washing machine?
      It is possible the pillows and pillowcases and towels on the dining table are from the washdry machine but I don't know. They were not on the table earlier that day. They are interesting only because they ended up in the same box as the listed clothes, which means the listed clothes are near that table.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 27, 2015, 09:23:19 PM
      There is a bunch of bananas, or are people claiming that's a pile of yellow folders and papers?

      Bananas are a certain conspicuous shape, hard to misinterpret as folders, whereas very neatly folded flat clothes piles might be seen where papers, folders, tea trays or anything similarly shaped are actually there instead (if they are). We disagree on what we see, it is down to perception in this case and perception only.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 27, 2015, 09:26:43 PM
      I can tell the difference between the dog blowing it's nose out and a bark and that is one sharp bark.
      It could be heard as a bark.
      The problem here is when Eddie has barked to alert, he has always given several barks as the indication.This was not an indication,IMO, and was not recorded as one either.

      The 'untrained puppy' pulling on the leash almost strangling himself behaviour shown by Eddie outside 5A is not in my opinion the behaviour one would expect from a trained working dog.

      Eddie was not a puppy, neither did he almost "strangle himself" and neither was he an untrained or non working dog. Your opinion doesn't really count and isn't remotely relevant to anything of substance as you are, presumably, not a dog handler and not in any position to expect anything at all. To even throw out the notion that you may know better than Mr Grime, a seasoned policeman and dog handler with nearly three decades of experience, is, at the very best, the height of  such astonishing arrogance and brazenness.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 27, 2015, 10:08:24 PM
      The 'untrained puppy' pulling on the leash almost strangling himself behaviour shown by Eddie outside 5A is not in my opinion the behaviour one would expect from a trained working dog.

      Taken in conjunction with the loud frenetic panting emanating from Eddie while he was working has always seemed a bit strange to me and I think adds up to a boy who was having difficulty with the warm Portuguese climate.

      I have read in various places that a panting dog is not an efficient dog ... which seems a reasonable conclusion to reach and if you have ever been slavered over you will appreciate that ...

      **Snip
      Then there’s endurance: performance changes over time.

      Dogs get tired, and less reliable, as the day goes on, just as we might.

      As for conditions, odors change in the weather, and dogs do, too.


      When they’re panting, dogs don’t sniff as readily as they normally might; an overly warm dog, forced to pant to cool himself, has a less reliable nose.


      And while we don’t think of odors as seasonal (until, upon reflection, we remember: there is a smell of spring, of summer; the odors of winter are fewer), smells are more volatile in warm weather, and travel and disperse differently than in the cold.
      This too affects detection rates.
      http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-limits-of-detection
      On the same video you can see Eddie's behaviour outside the front door of 5B. Compare.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 27, 2015, 10:26:44 PM
      It could be heard as a bark.
      The problem here is when Eddie has barked to alert, he has always given several barks as the indication.This was not an indication,IMO, and was not recorded as one either.

      Eddie was not a puppy, neither did he almost "strangle himself" and neither was he an untrained or non working dog. Your opinion doesn't really count and isn't remotely relevant to anything of substance as you are, presumably, not a dog handler and not in any position to expect anything at all. To even throw out the notion that you may know better than Mr Grime, a seasoned policeman and dog handler with nearly three decades of experience, is, at the very best, the height of  such astonishing arrogance and brazenness.

      Get a grip on yourself please ...  you seem to be suggesting that one has to be an expert to recognise the behaviour typical of a dog which has not been trained to walk on the lead without pulling and choking?

      I have observed Eddie doing just that ... and every dog I have ever had has been trained to 'stay' when told and to walk at my side whether on the lead or not, but when on the lead never to pull as Eddie did on that video clip ... which rather suggests that in that discipline at least, my training methods and the training methods of thousands of owners, are indeed far superior to Mr Grime's.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 27, 2015, 10:27:05 PM
      It could be heard as a bark.
      The problem here is when Eddie has barked to alert, he has always given several barks as the indication.This was not an indication,IMO, and was not recorded as one either.

      Eddie was not a puppy, neither did he almost "strangle himself" and neither was he an untrained or non working dog. Your opinion doesn't really count and isn't remotely relevant to anything of substance as you are, presumably, not a dog handler and not in any position to expect anything at all. To even throw out the notion that you may know better than Mr Grime, a seasoned policeman and dog handler with nearly three decades of experience, is, at the very best, the height of  such astonishing arrogance and brazenness.

      I think the opinion of the PJ is worth something . They were very critical of the dog's behaviour when they ignored  sites several times before being called back over and over again before alerting. no wonder grime says the alerts are of no evidential reliability
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 27, 2015, 10:28:30 PM
      Get a grip on yourself please ...  you seem to be suggesting that one has to be an expert to recognise the behaviour typical of a dog which has not been trained to walk on the lead without pulling and choking?

      I have observed Eddie doing just that ... and every dog I have ever had has been trained to 'stay' when told and to walk at my side whether on the lead or not, but when on the lead never to pull as Eddie did on that video clip ... which rather suggests that in that discipline at least, my training methods and the training methods of thousands of owners, are indeed far superior to Mr Grime's.

      I think Grime has been very careful to cover himself by completely playing down the significance of the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 27, 2015, 10:37:04 PM
      I think Grime has been very careful to cover himself by completely playing down the significance of the alerts

      I think it possible initially he was aghast when the videos were posted on-line ... then no publicity is bad publicity when it comes to marketing 'Dogs Don't Lie' merchandise.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 27, 2015, 10:45:46 PM
      Get a grip on yourself please ...  you seem to be suggesting that one has to be an expert to recognise the behaviour typical of a dog which has not been trained to walk on the lead without pulling and choking?

      I have observed Eddie doing just that ... and every dog I have ever had has been trained to 'stay' when told and to walk at my side whether on the lead or not, but when on the lead never to pull as Eddie did on that video clip ... which rather suggests that in that discipline at least, my training methods and the training methods of thousands of owners, are indeed far superior to Mr Grime's.

      I repeat, you are not a cadaver or any other police dog handler, or Eddies handler, it really is that simple, and it matters not that you have had a dog  and it did what you said, or that Eleanor had one who pissed as she said on her carpet, we all know what your games are by now...discredit either the dog or the handler, introduce pathetically spurious reasons for the alerts, whichever is easiest at any given time, admit it, you don't like the fact that a cadaver dog alerted at the last place a missing child was seen, that's the nub....it may be, in a month of Sunday's probably though, that the alerts meant nothing at all, but your approach sure doesn't do much to convince, it actually has the opposite effect, unfortunately for you

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 27, 2015, 10:55:33 PM
      I repeat, you are not a cadaver or any other police dog handler, or Eddies handler, it really is that simple, and it matters not that you have had a dog  and it did what you said, or that Eleanor had one who pissed as she said on her carpet, we all know what your games are by now...discredit either the dog or the handler, introduce pathetically spurious reasons for the alerts, whichever is easiest at any given time, admit it, you don't like the fact that a cadaver dog alerted at the last place a missing child was seen, that's the nub....it may be, in a month of Sunday's probably though, that the alerts meant nothing at all, but your approach sure doesn't do much to convince, it actually has the opposite effect, unfortunately for you

      and you and all the other posters are not cadaver dog handlers...but what we do know is that THE cadaver dog handler says his dog's alerts a have no evidential reliability...as far as i am concerned the alerts are worthless...and grime agrees with me
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 27, 2015, 11:01:25 PM
      and you and all the other posters are not cadaver dog handlers...but what we do know is that THE cadaver dog handler says his dog's alerts a have no evidential reliability...as far as i am concerned the alerts are worthless...and grime agrees with me

      Nope, you are wrong, yet again, alerts are without forensic evidence  unconfirmed "indications" as stated by Mark Harrison and Martin Grime..."indications"

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 27, 2015, 11:05:07 PM
      Nope, you are wrong, yet again, alerts are without forensic evidence  unconfirmed "indications" as stated by Mark Harrison and Martin Grime..."indications"

      no....cite please..you are making it up
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 27, 2015, 11:08:42 PM
      no....cite please

      The cite is in the PJ files, I thought you had looked at ALl the evidence?

       @)(++(*

      Were you lyng perchance? TBH you don't seem au fait with very much at all in the files...how remiss of you to ignore all that but go on to profess so vehemently about so much, quite disingenuous at best

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 27, 2015, 11:16:07 PM
      I repeat, you are not a cadaver or any other police dog handler, or Eddies handler, it really is that simple, and it matters not that you have had a dog  and it did what you said, or that Eleanor had one who pissed as she said on her carpet, we all know what your games are by now...discredit either the dog or the handler, introduce pathetically spurious reasons for the alerts, whichever is easiest at any given time, admit it, you don't like the fact that a cadaver dog alerted at the last place a missing child was seen, that's the nub....it may be, in a month of Sunday's probably though, that the alerts meant nothing at all, but your approach sure doesn't do much to convince, it actually has the opposite effect, unfortunately for you


      May I recommend Mr Grime's comments to you ...

      **Snip
      It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      ... ... and we do KNOW (or at least those of us who have been reading the posts on this thread with a modicum of understanding) that rather spectacular alert was to cellular material on the key fob of the Renault deposited by a living breathing human being.
      Therefore ... corroboration that Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent in the Renault.

      What he may have alerted to in apartment 5A is anyone's guess but as his false alert in the Renault attests ... it could have been anything at all which emits the VOCs he was trained to recognise.


      I find it amazing that there are so many people around absolutely determined that a little girl died in the apartment that night without a shred of evidence to support their aspirations.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 12:03:36 AM

      May I recommend Mr Grime's comments to you ...You really don't need to, I have read the files, thanks anyway

      **Snip
      It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      Cherry picking again are we? Martin Grime wrote that in relation to the CARS....he did not mention blood when he said in his opinion it was cadaver scent on other searches...actually, that proves the point that Mr Grime knows how to differentiate between the two possibilities....isn't he clever?





      ... ... and we do KNOW (or at least those of us who have been reading the posts on this thread with a modicum of understanding)

      patronising will get you nowhere at all


       that rather spectacular alert was to cellular material on the key fob of the Renault deposited by a living breathing human being.
      Therefore ... corroboration that Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent in the Renault.

      You potentially make two mistakes there

      1) that the blood found on the car key fob WAS Gerry Mccanns and 2) that a cadaver dog also able to smell blood must have only smelt blood

      Oh I forgot, Gerry McCann himself said there was no blood found ...are you disbelieving him? Edited, wrong interview referred to but he did say it

      As an adjunct, what is the difference in the Lowe FSS report between it being a 100 per cent given in your view that Gerrys blood was in the car key fob and 100 per cent Madeleine's blood NOT being in the tiles from behnd the sofa

      What he may have alerted to in apartment 5A is anyone's guess but as his false alert in the Renault attests ... it could have been anything at all which emits the VOCs he was trained to recognise.

       false alert? Backtracking?


      I find it amazing that there are so many people around absolutely determined that a little girl died in the apartment that night without a shred of evidence to support their aspirations.

      Your last sentence is gross at best, but par for the course

      Answers in case you wondered, are in purple!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 12:05:20 AM
      I am usually right,...the fact that you have not provided a cite confirms this
      No, it only confirms you have made an assumption that because I have yet to provide the cite you must be right, but you're wrong

       8((()*/

      SUch poor logic
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: puglove on August 28, 2015, 12:06:01 AM
      I am usually right,...the fact that you have not provided a cite confirms this

      Oh, hush. The McCanns lost their little girl because they were spoilt and lazy.

      They would rather talk crap than stay with their children.

      Would you honestly leave 3 tiny children, when you can't see them, and talk crap and show off? What the f..k do you think would happen?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 12:41:48 AM
      Get a grip on yourself please ...  you seem to be suggesting that one has to be an expert to recognise the behaviour typical of a dog which has not been trained to walk on the lead without pulling and choking?

      I have observed Eddie doing just that ... and every dog I have ever had has been trained to 'stay' when told and to walk at my side whether on the lead or not, but when on the lead never to pull as Eddie did on that video clip ... which rather suggests that in that discipline at least, my training methods and the training methods of thousands of owners, are indeed far superior to Mr Grime's.
      Here is a video here of a dog staying when told to stay, calmly waiting at an open door until told to enter
      Entry B: http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=38m10s
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 12:51:38 AM
      And yet another video of a dog politely staying until told to enter.
      Entry D: http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=41m39s
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 01:00:16 AM
      Entry H: http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=46m37s
      Again the dog waits until told to enter.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 01:10:32 AM
      Entry H: http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=46m37s
      Again the dog waits until told to enter.

      Are you sayng Eddie, as Mr Grime suggested,was already scenting the scent before even venturing in?Probably, rather than he was trying to strangle himself or was tired already ,which is ridiculous as 5a was his first port of call even IF the theory had any substance, or  it was too hot, and other such claptrap
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 02:31:38 AM
      Are you sayng Eddie, as Mr Grime suggested,was already scenting the scent before even venturing in?Probably, rather than he was trying to strangle himself or was tired already ,which is ridiculous as 5a was his first port of call even IF the theory had any substance, or  it was too hot, and other such claptrap
      I don't know Mercury I just posted some video links of dog outside some other front doors for comparing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 04:15:07 AM
      I don't know Mercury I just posted some video links of dog outside some other front doors for comparing.

      Sure, thanks
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 28, 2015, 04:29:38 AM

      Eddie doesn't look very well behaved to me.  I think he was an experiment that didn't quite gell
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 28, 2015, 06:57:56 AM
      I repeat, you are not a cadaver or any other police dog handler, or Eddies handler, it really is that simple, and it matters not that you have had a dog  and it did what you said, or that Eleanor had one who pissed as she said on her carpet, we all know what your games are by now...discredit either the dog or the handler, introduce pathetically spurious reasons for the alerts, whichever is easiest at any given time, admit it, you don't like the fact that a cadaver dog alerted at the last place a missing child was seen, that's the nub....it may be, in a month of Sunday's probably though, that the alerts meant nothing at all, but your approach sure doesn't do much to convince, it actually has the opposite effect, unfortunately for you

      Well said!  8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 07:20:55 AM
      No, it only confirms you have made an assumption that because I have yet to provide the cite you must be right, but you're wrong

       8((()*/

      SUch poor logic

      still no cite.......no surprise
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 07:24:56 AM
      lots of off topic posts....

      the alerts have no evidential reliability...basically worthless...fact...I can see why posters wish to avoid the issue
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 08:13:12 AM
      Why did Mark Harrison dismiss both inspections at villa and gym with these terse words?

      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.


      Didn't even acknowledge that Grime and his dogs had taken part.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 08:39:48 AM
      For starters...............


      Originally written on 7th June 2008

      Article by Dr Rosemary Claire Taylor MA MB BChir (Cantab)

      Olfaction, the act or process of smelling, is the primary special sense possessed by dogs. A dog’s sense of smell is a thousand times more sensitive than humans. Dogs have more than 220 million olfactory receptors in their nose, whereas humans only have 5 million. Specially trained dogs have been used to locate forensic cadaver material and disaster survivors. Highly trained dogs assisted the emergency services in the aftermath of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Centre on September 11th, 2001.

      Cadaver dogs need to undergo rigorous training. Prior to beginning a specialised training programme, these dogs need to have basic obedience skills. The cue a dog uses to indicate forensic material depends on the trainer. Some dogs are trained to bark to indicate cadavers, whereas others scratch at the area in the crime scene. Dogs are given a verbal cue to start searching, and directional cues such as “check it out” to indicate an area requiring a more detailed search.

      A variety of breeds can be trained to hunt forensic material. Bloodhounds, springer spaniels and labradors are commonly used. Trained cadaver dogs have the ability to detect decomposing bodies beneath running water, for example when a corpse is weighted down, and placed at the bottom of a river.

      I have done a thorough search of academic journals on this subject, and will present my findings as follows:
      1. Cadaver dogs are known as valuable forensic tools in crime scene investigations. Scientific research attempting to verify their value is largely lacking, specifically for scents associated with the early postmortem interval. The aim of our investigation was the comparative evaluation of the reliability, accuracy, and specificity of three cadaver dogs belonging to the Hamburg State Police in the detection of scents during the early postmortem interval.
      Carpet squares were used as an odor transporting media after they had been contaminated with the scent of two recently deceased bodies (bodies are all less than 3 hours old). The contamination occurred for 2 min as well as 10 min without any direct contact between the carpet and the corpse. Comparative searches by the dogs were performed over a time period of 65 days (10 min contamination) and 35 days (2 min contamination).

      The results of this study indicate that the well-trained cadaver dog is an outstanding tool for crime scene investigation displaying excellent sensitivity (75-100), specificity (91-100), and having a positive predictive value (90-100), negative predictive value (90-100) as well as accuracy (92-100).

      Reference:

      Cadaver dogs–a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares.

      Oesterhelweg L, Kröber S, Rottmann K, Willhöft J, Braun C, Thies N, Püschel K, Silkenath J, Gehl A.

      Institute of Legal Medicine, University Medical Center Hamburg, Germany.

      Notes on the scientific terminology in this study;

      Sensitivity means the number of correct detections out of 100. Here, all dogs managed to correctly identify 75-100 carpet squares out of 100. This is a good success rate.
      Specificity describes the number of false identifications. A sensitivity of 91 out of 100 means, at most, there are 9 false positives in a sample of 100 uncontaminated squares. This is a good specificity, much higher than cervical screening, which can detect far more false positives.
      The Positive Predictive Value can be defined as;

      In other words, out of 100, there are 75-100 true positives, and 0-9 false positives. A positive predictive value describes the percentage chance, if a sample is contaminated, that the dog will discover it. The value of 90-100 means that, out of 100 contaminated squares, at least 90 are correctly identified by the dog.
      The Negative Predictive Value can be defined as;

      In other words, out of 100, there are 0-9 false positives and 0-25 false negatives. A negative predictive value describes the chance that, if a sample is not contaminated, the dog will correctly identify the sample as clear of human remains. The study quotes a negative predictive value of 90-100. This means only 0-10 ‘clean’ squares are wrongly identified as contaminated by the dogs.

      Accuracy is the degree to which the evidence presented by the dogs matches known information about which squares were marked. The accuracy of dog detection is presented as 92-100. This means that dogs correctly identify carpet squares as ‘marked’ or ‘unmarked’ in at least 92 cases out of 100. This is an impressive accuracy score.
      In addition, I think it is important to consider that this is an experiment, not real life. In reality cadaver dogs are given more time to assess possible traces of human remains. Hence in a true police setting, cadaver dogs are more likely to give accurate information.

      2. Specially trained air scent detection canines (Canis familiaris) are commonly used by law enforcement to detect narcotics, explosives or contraband, and by fire investigators to detect the presence of accelerants. Dogs are also used by police, military, and civilian groups to locate lost or missing persons, as well as victims of natural or mass disasters. A further subspecialty is “cadaver” searching, or the use of canines to locate buried or concealed human remains.

      Recent forensic investigations in central Alberta demonstrated that the use of cadaver dogs could be expanded to include locating partial, scattered human remains dispersed by repeated animal scavenging. Eight dog-and-handler teams participated in a two-month training program using human and animal remains in various stages of decay as scent sources. Ten blind field tests were then conducted which simulated actual search conditions. Recovery rates ranged between 57% and 100%, indicating that properly trained cadaver dogs can make significant contributions in the location and recovery of scattered human remains.

      Reference:

      J Forensic Sci. 1999 Mar;44(2):405-8.
      The use of cadaver dogs in locating scattered, scavenged human remains: preliminary field test results. Komar D.
      Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada.

      This study was written in 1999. Nonetheless, in situations where there are scattered human remains, dogs identify them in 57-100% of cases.

      3. The detection of human remains that have been deliberately buried to escape detection is a problem for law enforcement. Sometimes the cadaver dog and handler teams are successful, while other times law enforcement and cadaver dog teams are frustrated in their search. Five field trials tested the ability of four cadaver dog and handler teams to detect buried human remains.

      Human and animal remains were buried in various forested areas during the summer months near Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The remains ranged in decomposition from fresh to skeletonised. Cadaver dogs detected with varying success: buried human remains at different stages of decomposition, buried human remains at different depths, and buried decomposed human and animal remains.

      The results from these trials showed that some cadaver dogs were able to locate skeletonised remains buried at a significant depth. Fresh and skeletonised remains were found equally by the cadaver dogs along with some caveats. Dog handlers affected the reliability of the cadaver dog results. Observations and videotape of the cadaver dogs during field trials showed that they were reliable in finding buried human remains.

      Reference:

      J Forensic Sci. 2003 May;48(3):617-21.
      Cadaver dog and handler team capabilities in the recovery of buried human remains in the southeastern United States.Lasseter AE, Jacobi KP, Farley R, Hensel L.
      Department of Anthropology, University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0210, USA.

      This is an impressive study. The salient points are that cadaver dogs can identify a corpse, or a piece of a corpse, which had been buried at a significant depth. This gives the dog handlers an opportunity to investigate a more ‘real life’ crime scene. Following a murder, it is normal for a criminal to hide any human remains, often by burying the corpse. It appears that these dogs can still detect the ‘smell of death’, when a body part is buried deep in a forest.

      - See more at: http://dogsdontlie.com/main/2008/12/cadaver-dogs-how-reliable-are-they-at-detecting-death/#sthash.1xx3kVVt.dpuf

      so this was for starters.........is there anymore or is that it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 08:44:10 AM
      so this was for starters.........is there anymore or is that it

      Are you having a bad morning ?

      I read your minor litany in response to this already.

      All you expressed was your amateur googling opinion and that is of no consequence whatsoever.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 28, 2015, 08:48:04 AM

      I am watching.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2015, 10:25:02 AM
      Are you having a bad morning ?

      I read your minor litany in response to this already.

      All you expressed was your amateur googling opinion and that is of no consequence whatsoever.

      How terribly condescending Stephen.

      Whereas you make statements of "fact" with absolutely no cite or corroboration. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 28, 2015, 10:29:23 AM
      Are you sayng Eddie, as Mr Grime suggested,was already scenting the scent before even venturing in?Probably, rather than he was trying to strangle himself or was tired already ,which is ridiculous as 5a was his first port of call even IF the theory had any substance, or  it was too hot, and other such claptrap

      quote -  'it was too hot, and other such claptrap'  unquote

      Why DO dogs pant mercury?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 10:30:25 AM
      How terribly condescending Stephen.

      Whereas you make statements of "fact" with absolutely no cite or corroboration.

      I gave reference to an actual case study jp.

       ?{)(**
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 28, 2015, 10:33:15 AM
      Answers in case you wondered, are in purple!

      it was Gerry's blood on the key fob wasn't it?

      Didn't Gerry mean there was no blood found in the car boot when they took a sample?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2015, 10:34:33 AM
      I gave reference to an actual case study jp.

       ?{)(**

      Did you use google or another search engine to find it?  .  Which you have just critised others for doing.  ?{)(**
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 10:39:32 AM
      Did you use google or another search engine to find it?  .  Which you have just critised others for doing.  ?{)(**

      I don't rely on google for all my knowledge.

      Research is sometimes essential and that was just one study among others

      However, I don't pretend to be an expert in the field merely having read this study as regards dogs as others do on here. *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2015, 10:46:34 AM
      I don't rely on google for all my knowledge.

      Research is sometimes essential and that was just one study among others

      However, I don't pretend to be an expert in the field merely having read this study as regards dogs as others do on here. *&*%£

      I have not seen anyone claiming to be an "expert" in anything on this forum.

      Goggle is preferable to guesswork.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 28, 2015, 10:52:14 AM
      it was Gerry's blood on the key fob wasn't it?

      Didn't Gerry mean there was no blood found in the car boot when they took a sample?

      No one knows. Both dogs alerted and enough of the components of Gerry's profile were present to satisfy Lowe that it was likely to be his DNA.

      There was no forensic corroboration of blood.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 10:53:18 AM
      I have not seen anyone claiming to be an "expert" in anything on this forum.

      Goggle is preferable to guesswork.


      You can google and still not understand.

      One poster the other day was quoting 'r' values in relation to testing procedures.

      They didn't appear to know what they represented.

      In case it helps 'r' values normally relate to correlation values.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 10:57:18 AM
      No one knows. Both dogs alerted and enough of the components of Gerry's profile were present to satisfy Lowe that it was likely to be his DNA.

      There was no forensic corroboration of blood.

      True.

      But if it wasn't blood, then Keela alerted falsely.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 28, 2015, 10:59:37 AM

      You can google and still not understand.

      One poster the other day was quoting 'r' values in relation to testing procedures.

      They didn't appear to know what they represented.

      In case it helps 'r' values normally relate to correlation values.

      How do we know that you didn't google that?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 28, 2015, 11:01:37 AM
      True.

      But if it wasn't blood, then Keela alerted falsely.

      We don't know that, either, though.

      In the Jersey notes, Grime describes the alerts as:

      Both the EVRD and Human blood search dog are presumptive screening assets. Any alert indications given MUST be forensically corroborated to be conclusive.

      http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.com/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2015, 11:04:37 AM

      You can google and still not understand.

      One poster the other day was quoting 'r' values in relation to testing procedures.

      They didn't appear to know what they represented.

      In case it helps 'r' values normally relate to correlation values.

      We can agree on that.

      But I am not sure that any of us have a sufficiently detailed knowledge of any of the areas that this case touches on without needed to rely on some reference source.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 11:08:07 AM
      We don't know that, either, though.

      In the Jersey notes, Grime describes the alerts as:

      Both the EVRD and Human blood search dog are presumptive screening assets. Any alert indications given MUST be forensically corroborated to be conclusive.

      http://voiceforprotest.blogspot.com/2010/03/operation-rectangle-summary-report.html

      And yet, in his PdL profile, Grime says that Keela is capable of detecting blood to levels beyond the capability of any forensic laboratory to detect.

      I guess that's all part of the glorious paradox that is Martin Grime ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 11:36:59 AM
      I am at a loss to understand why any true scientist would have difficulty understanding that the dog alerts in the (shelved) Madeleine enquiry are not worth a bean ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 11:37:32 AM
      Behaviour outside each apartment - please someone add the two other times?
      http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8
      5A:
      5B: 38:10
      5D: 41:39
      5H: 46:37
      4G:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 28, 2015, 12:20:11 PM
      I'm not befitting people who use google.

      I just don't agree with those who google knowledge and then pretend to be experts in that field of knowledge.

      Research helps, but it doesn't necessarily make you an expert.

      No-one is claiming to be an expert - they are backing up their claims with appropriate cites.      Something which you repeatedly refuse to do IMO.

      However,  the subject of Dog Handling/Training is hardly on a par with Astro Physics - and AFAIK a university degree is not a requirement in order to understand the subject well enough to express an informed opinion on it - backed up by cites from people who ARE experts.

      Your reason for attempting to 'shut down' discussion on this subject (simply because you don't happen to agree with)  - by accusing people of not being qualified to discuss it doesn't wash IMO.   

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 12:26:12 PM
      No-one is claiming to be an expert - they are backing up their claims with appropriate cites.      Something which you repeatedly refuse to do IMO.

      However,  the subject of Dog Handling/Training is hardly on a par with Astro Physics - and AFAIK a university degree is not a requirement in order to understand the subject well enough to express an informed opinion on it - backed up by cites from people who ARE experts.

      Your reason for attempting to 'shut down' discussion on this subject (simply because you don't happen to agree with)  - by accusing people of not being qualified to discuss it doesn't wash IMO.

      The clear attempts to attack Martin Grime and to belittle him and the dogs indications, are what mccann supporters are all about on there.

      Anyone who thinks anything else is deluded.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2015, 12:30:26 PM
      No-one is claiming to be an expert - they are backing up their claims with appropriate cites.      Something which you repeatedly refuse to do IMO.

      However,  the subject of Dog Handling/Training is hardly on a par with Astro Physics - and AFAIK a university degree is not a requirement in order to understand the subject well enough to express an informed opinion on it - backed up by cites from people who ARE experts.

      Your reason for attempting to 'shut down' discussion on this subject (simply because you don't happen to agree with)  - by accusing people of not being qualified to discuss it doesn't wash IMO.

      Of course Martin Marime is quite clear- the dog alerts are of no evidential or intelligence value without forensic corroboration.

      So it is intriguing that some posters are choosing to ignore this, and try to place intelligence and evidential value on the alerts, contrary to Martin Grime's own advice.

      This suggests that those posters think they know better than an experienced dog handler. 



       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 12:32:42 PM
      Of course Martin Marime is quite clear- the dog alerts are of no evidential or intelligence value without forensic corroboration.

      So it is intriguing that some posters are choosing to ignore this, and try to place intelligence and evidential value on the alerts, contrary to Martin Grime's own advice.

      This suggests that those posters think they know better than an experienced dog handler.

      I repeat a question I asked earlier this morning:

      Why did Mark Harrison dismiss both inspections at villa and gym with these terse words?

      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.


      Didn't even acknowledge that Grime and his dogs had taken part.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 12:37:17 PM
      Of course Martin Marime is quite clear- the dog alerts are of no evidential or intelligence value without forensic corroboration.

      So it is intriguing that some posters are choosing to ignore this, and try to place intelligence and evidential value on the alerts, contrary to Martin Grime's own advice.

      This suggests that those posters think they know better than an experienced dog handler.

      Yet they remain the only the focus of contention in this case.

      There is nothing else even remotely pointing to Madeleine's fate.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2015, 12:50:40 PM
      Yet they remain the only the focus of contention in this case.

      There is nothing else even remotely pointing to Madeleine's fate.

      So given the lack of corroborating evidence, does r=0
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 12:56:58 PM
      So given the lack of corroborating evidence, does r=0



      What are the bivariate factors being tested jp ?

      Are they qualitative or quantitative ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 01:04:49 PM
      still no cite.......no surprise

      Why is it such a surprise? Do I make a habit of not providing cites when asked? Tut tut.

      You have read the files you claim, you should then not require a cite should you? but just so as it doesn't bother you all day, let us recap

      I said that Mark Harrison called the alerts without forensic corroboration unconfirmed indications, and that is precisely what he said. So, no, you were very wrong when you accused me of making it up , such haste and willingness to disbelieve a simple statement

      Here is your cite, I await your apology in due course (when pigs grow wings of course)

      During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed INDICATIONS Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

      So there we have it, alerts remain indications

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 28, 2015, 01:07:11 PM
      The clear attempts to attack Martin Grime and to belittle him and the dogs indications, are what mccann supporters are all about on there.

      Anyone who thinks anything else is deluded.

      On the contrary Stephen - it is those sceptics who believe that because Eddie barked - that is proof that a dead body must have been in 5A who are the people refusing to believe Martin Grime and therefore belittling his statements.

      No 'supporter' has ever made that erroneous claim which is in direct opposition to Martin Grime's clear assertion that such alerts have no evidential value unless they are corroborated.    M. Harrison has also confirmed that uncorroborated alerts do not prove the existence of a dead body. 

      So you are pointing at the wrong people IMO.


           
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2015, 01:07:52 PM


      What are the bivariate factors being tested jp ?

      Are they qualitative or quantitative ?

      There you go again Stephen - why can you not say "which variables are being tested"?  And "are they number based or quality based"

      Why do you have to try to prove how clever you are with trotting out jargon - I have heard it said that the hallmark of a true expert is the ability to explain things to a layman simply.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 01:12:00 PM
      There you go again Stephen - why can you not say "which variables are being tested"?  And "are they number based or quality based"

      Why do you have to try to prove how clever you are with trotting out jargon - I have heard it said that the hallmark of a true expert is the ability to explain things to a layman simply.

      I asked a simple question.

      How would YOU apply a correlation test to the dogs indications ?

      It was you you who put r=0 after all.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2015, 01:22:46 PM
      I asked a simple question.

      How would YOU apply a correlation test to the dogs indications ?

      It was you you who put r=0 after all.

      It was a joke Stephen.  And you will also not that it was phrased in the form of a question. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 01:26:49 PM
      it was Gerry's blood on the key fob wasn't it?

      Didn't Gerry mean there was no blood found in the car boot when they took a sample?

      The swab DNA results from the card key  mentioned corresponding components to his profile matching, same as for the blood found under the tiles, corresponding components matched Madeleine's profile except in the latter case, it was from more than one person and it was also qualified by somethng along the lines of IIRC, but this could mean it came from either one or both parents. My point was people take is as fact one result proves one thing (ie it WAS Gerry's blood) but the other proves something else (it WASN'T Madeleine's blood). Anyway,

      Yes, he did say there was no blood, period, in one interview

      Q – Didn't you find it strange that the dogs found traces of blood in your room and in your rental car…
       
      Gerry – There was no blood found! The indicia are worthless if they are not corroborated by forensic information. And they were not.
       
      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id163.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 28, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
      Yet they remain the only the focus of contention in this case.

      There is nothing else even remotely pointing to Madeleine's fate.
      How wrong.

      Loads of possible sightings including Tannerman and Smithman. 


      THen IIRC over 20 in Malta and Gozo alone


      Of course Roderick Robinson AKA MacDonald was arrested in Gozo at Sannat, just before Christmas.   And he now ls allegedly in jail in Malta.  I wonder if he is out of jail yet, cos SY want to speak to him and extradite him, do they not?



      Mind you, there is something funny going on here cos bioth Anna and misty [IIRC the correct sleuths ] found that Roderick died some years ago

      If so, who is this man?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 01:32:51 PM
      Behaviour outside each apartment - please someone add the two other times?
      http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8
      5A:
      5B: 38:10
      5D: 41:39
      5H: 46:37
      4G:

      5A 13:15
      4G 49:58

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 01:34:33 PM
      The swab DNA results from the card key  mentioned corresponding components to his profile matching, same as for the blood found under the tiles, corresponding components matched Madeleine's profile except in the latter case, it was from more than one person and it was also qualified by somethng along the lines of IIRC, but this could mean it came from either one or both parents. My point was people take is as fact one result proves one thing (ie it WAS Gerry's blood) but the other proves something else (it WASN'T Madeleine's blood). Anyway,

      Yes, he did say there was no blood, period, in one interview

      Q – Didn't you find it strange that the dogs found traces of blood in your room and in your rental car…
       
      Gerry – There was no blood found! The indicia are worthless if they are not corroborated by forensic information. And they were not.
       
      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id163.html

      It is a fact that the word blood doesn't feature once in John Lowe's report ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2015, 01:37:11 PM

      Quote from: Brietta on August 27, 2015, 11:16:07 PM
      May I recommend Mr Grime's comments to you ...You really don't need to, I have read the files, thanks anyway

      **Snip
      It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      Cherry picking again are we? Martin Grime wrote that in relation to the CARS....he did not mention blood when he said in his opinion it was cadaver scent on other searches...actually, that proves the point that Mr Grime knows how to differentiate between the two possibilities....isn't he clever?

      ... ... and we do KNOW (or at least those of us who have been reading the posts on this thread with a modicum of understanding)

      patronising will get you nowhere at all


       that rather spectacular alert was to cellular material on the key fob of the Renault deposited by a living breathing human being.
      Therefore ... corroboration that Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent in the Renault.

      You potentially make two mistakes there

      1) that the blood found on the car key fob WAS Gerry Mccanns and 2) that a cadaver dog also able to smell blood must have only smelt blood

      Oh I forgot, Gerry McCann himself said there was no blood found ...are you disbelieving him? Edited, wrong interview referred to but he did say it

      As an adjunct, what is the difference in the Lowe FSS report between it being a 100 per cent given in your view that Gerrys blood was in the car key fob and 100 per cent Madeleine's blood NOT being in the tiles from behnd the sofa

      What he may have alerted to in apartment 5A is anyone's guess but as his false alert in the Renault attests ... it could have been anything at all which emits the VOCs he was trained to recognise.

      false alert? Backtracking?


      I find it amazing that there are so many people around absolutely determined that a little girl died in the apartment that night without a shred of evidence to support their aspirations.

      Your last sentence is gross at best, but par for the course



      Answers in case you wondered, are in purple!


      Deposition of: JOHN ROBERT LOWE BSc CBiol MlBiol RFP Age: Older than 18

      Profession of Witness: Forensic Scientist


      FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 8
      An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key -  (286C/2007-CRL (12)).
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

      Just to clarify matters for you ...
      I hope that helps you to a better understanding of my post.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 01:41:31 PM
      It is a fact that the word blood doesn't feature once in John Lowe's report ....

      So what? the samples were of meagre quality, but enugh DNA remained for testing. You are free to start a mission called " Keela might not alert just to blood despite what her handler says"

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 01:54:47 PM
      How wrong.

      Loads of possible sightings including Tannerman and Smithman. 


      THen IIRC over 20 in Malta and Gozo alone


      Of course Roderick Robinson AKA MacDonald was arrested in Gozo at Sannat, just before Christmas.   And he now ls allegedly in jail in Malta.  I wonder if he is out of jail yet, cos SY want to speak to him and extradite him, do they not?



      Mind you, there is something funny going on here cos bioth Anna and misty [IIRC the correct sleuths ] found that Roderick died some years ago

      If so, who is this man?

      Sightings sadie ???

      It doesn't mean any of them was Madeleine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 01:56:50 PM
      Sightings sadie ???

      It doesn't mean any of them was Madeleine.

      Neither does it mean they were not.

      Do you still believe the Smiths saw Gerry?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 01:57:03 PM
      It was a joke Stephen.  And you will also not that it was phrased in the form of a question.

      Naturally JP.  8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 02:00:17 PM
      Neither does it mean they were not.

      Do you still believe the Smiths saw Gerry?


      You can have your pipe dreams and you are welcome to them.


      Tell me which sightings have been confirmed.


      Do we have Mr.Smith's direct statement on this matter and not from another 'source' ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 02:01:40 PM

      You can have your pipe dreams and you are welcome to them.


      Tell me which sightings have been confirmed.


      Do we have Mr.Smith's direct statement on this matter and not from another 'source' ?

      I asked whether you still believe the Smiths saw Gerry?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 02:16:18 PM
      5A 13:15
      4G 49:58
      Thanks Mercury
      Behaviour outside each apartment http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8
      5A 13:15
      5B 38:10
      5D 41:39
      5H 46:37
      4G 49:58

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 02:21:36 PM
      I asked whether you still believe the Smiths saw Gerry?

      Has it been ruled out by direct unequivocal evidence ?

      Bearing in mind they didn't see the mans face clearly.

      I recall you saying his daughter was better at observation than her father.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 02:23:38 PM
      Has it been ruled out by direct unequivocal evidence ?

      Bearing in mind they didn't see the mans face clearly.

      I recall you saying his daughter was better at observation than her father.

      It is still very much ruled in that the Smiths might have been seen Madeleine's abductor, unless anything has come to light I am unaware of to rule out the Smith sighting.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 02:32:01 PM
      Are you having a bad morning ?

      I read your minor litany in response to this already.

      All you expressed was your amateur googling opinion and that is of no consequence whatsoever.

      Has it occurred to you that the article you have quoted was found via google
      You may be an Internet dinasaur but for those of us who have kept abreast of technology Google is an essential tool
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: John on August 28, 2015, 02:36:34 PM
      So have we reached a consensus or what?  Did the dogs inspections at Ocean Club, of the cars or of the McCann's clothing bring anything to the investigation?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 02:37:08 PM
      Has it been ruled out by direct unequivocal evidence ?

      Bearing in mind they didn't see the mans face clearly.

      I recall you saying his daughter was better at observation than her father.
      There has been no dog corroboration of the irish sighting's relevance.
      Remember the child seen by the irish party had bare feet and hands and face and therefore would leave scent particles all along the route.
      None of the GNR dogs tracked the missing child down this route.
      None of the EVRD dogs (Eddie, Tito, Muzzy) alerted on this route nor at the destination area SY assumed it led to.
      It is risky IMO to base a whole investigation on one sighting which may be nothing to do with it.
      Because that can mean missing the real solution, as has happened in other cases.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 02:40:24 PM
      So have we reached a consensus or what?  Did the dogs inspections at Ocean Club, of the cars or of the McCann's clothing bring anything to the investigation?

      Not sure whether we've reached a consensus.

      But my take is that analysis of the dog inspections confirms the innocence of the McCanns, but contributes nothing to the sum of knowledge about what happened to Madeleine.

      Others, much cleverer than me, analysing different aspects of the official record, have brought to light stuff that does, or may.

      All power to them ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2015, 02:44:22 PM
      Has it occurred to you that the article you have quoted was found via google
      You may be an Internet dinasaur but for those of us who have kept abreast of technology Google is an essential tool

      Davel - how could you be so disrespectful?

      It is well known that there are some posters who are such polymaths that they have no need of google or any other reference.

      Their command of maths, law and chemisty and alchemy is profound and unquestionable.

      We should consider ouselves fortunate that such intellectual titans are prepared to bestow their wisdom on us ignorant, uneducated dregs of society.     
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 02:53:39 PM
      So have we reached a consensus or what?  Did the dogs inspections at Ocean Club, of the cars or of the McCann's clothing bring anything to the investigation?
      Certainly no forum consensus has been reached.
      Another question.
      If the NPIA had recommended against using an EVRD, and Eddie had never gone to PDL, where would the case be now?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 02:59:51 PM
      Certainly no forum consensus has been reached.
      Another question.
      If the NPIA had recommended against using an EVRD, and Eddie had never gone to PDL, where would the case be now?

      My hunch is that we would, now, be in exactly the same position as we are in, except that the first enquiry would have been shelved earlier, with Robert Murat the only (original!) arguido to be released from the status without blemish or question to his character.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 28, 2015, 03:00:11 PM
      Certainly no forum consensus has been reached.
      Another question.
      If the NPIA had recommended against using an EVRD, and Eddie had never gone to PDL, where would the case be now?

      I would imagine the case itelf would be exactly where it is now.  With Madeleine still missing.

      I also think the McCann forum industry would have been very short lived, and Amaral would be about to retire from the PJ.   
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 28, 2015, 03:04:16 PM
      So have we reached a consensus or what?  Did the dogs inspections at Ocean Club, of the cars or of the McCann's clothing bring anything to the investigation?

      According to Lowe and his colleagues it brought nothing to the party:
      snip >>>>>
      Conclusion
      In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.<<<< snip
      snip >>>>>
      Conclusion
      In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann. <<<< snip


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 03:07:04 PM
      According to Lowe and his colleagues it brought nothing to the party:
      snip >>>>>
      Conclusion
      In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.<<<< snip
      snip >>>>>
      Conclusion
      In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann. <<<< snip

      Other factors determine that.

      Like the fact that the car was hired 3 weeks after Madeleine disappeared. 

      And the fact that there was a sodding great camera crew filming their departure from PdL ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2015, 03:07:32 PM
      Not sure whether we've reached a consensus.

      But my take is that analysis of the dog inspections confirms the innocence of the McCanns, but contributes nothing to the sum of knowledge about what happened to Madeleine.

      Others, much cleverer than me, analysing different aspects of the official record, have brought to light stuff that does, or may.

      All power to them ....

      Very much my take on it ... but I don't think anyone has budged one iota from the opinion held at the start of the discussion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2015, 03:16:02 PM
      According to Lowe and his colleagues it brought nothing to the party:
      snip >>>>>
      Conclusion
      In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.<<<< snip
      snip >>>>>
      Conclusion
      In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann. <<<< snip

       ... and even if the hairs had been Madeleine's, without a root they would have signified nothing other than they were hers.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 03:17:58 PM
      My hunch is that we would, now, be in exactly the same position as we are in, except that the first enquiry would have been shelved earlier, with Robert Murat the only (original!) arguido to be released from the status without blemish or question to his character.
      Assuming Eddie and Keela never went to PDL and there were no dog alerts.
      The case gets shelved in 2008.
      Then a few years later SY and PJ reopen the case.
      Would SY have sent EVRDs Tito and Muzzy to PDL?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 28, 2015, 03:21:54 PM
      Y'all don't seem to like the conclusions of the FSS.
      Don't whinge at me I only posted them. Or are you implying I "did a Levy" 
      *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 03:23:04 PM
      Davel - how could you be so disrespectful?

      It is well known that there are some posters who are such polymaths that they have no need of google or any other reference.

      Their command of maths, law and chemisty and alchemy is profound and unquestionable.

      We should consider ouselves fortunate that such intellectual titans are prepared to bestow their wisdom on us ignorant, uneducated dregs of society.   

      I leave the alchemy to you JP.

      Unless of course you've found a convenient pathway to remove three protons from lead nuclei. 8**8:/:

      Or is it a load of quarks to you.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 03:23:59 PM
      It is still very much ruled in that the Smiths might have been seen Madeleine's abductor, unless anything has come to light I am unaware of to rule out the Smith sighting.

      Ah the mystical abductor yet again.

       8(*(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 28, 2015, 03:27:13 PM
      So have we reached a consensus or what?  Did the dogs inspections at Ocean Club, of the cars or of the McCann's clothing bring anything to the investigation?

      The more benevolent  minded, of members, remain to question or even rule out the alerts of the dog, which I might add…have no evidential value, without corroboration of evidential proof.

      Whereas the more sceptic views, of other members remain in the believe that the alerts from the EVRD were evidence of  cadaver scent. Who knows? They may be correct, but there is no evidence to support this.

      IMO, The latter group would still be blaming the parents, even if the dogs hadn’t been brought in, whereas the former believe in innocent until proven otherwise.

      A book is the cause of all of this and the fact that this case (unlike others) has all the PJ files online for all to study…. Only My opinion, of course.
       
      So, back to square one really  %#&%4%
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 28, 2015, 03:44:05 PM

      Close The Thread?  Stand back for fear of being stampeded.

      I know.  Let's start another Dog Thread.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 03:51:04 PM
      Y'all don't seem to like the conclusions of the FSS.
      Don't whinge at me I only posted them. Or are you implying I "did a Levy" 
      *&*%£

      I have no problem with the report from the FSS..... why do you assume I do
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 03:54:07 PM
      So have we reached a consensus or what?  Did the dogs inspections at Ocean Club, of the cars or of the McCann's clothing bring anything to the investigation?

      you make a very good point which none of the sceptics have been able to answer......what do the alerts bring to the investigation...absolutely nothing
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 04:08:04 PM
      Davel - how could you be so disrespectful?

      It is well known that there are some posters who are such polymaths that they have no need of google or any other reference.

      Their command of maths, law and chemisty and alchemy is profound and unquestionable.

      We should consider ouselves fortunate that such intellectual titans are prepared to bestow their wisdom on us ignorant, uneducated dregs of society.   

      you should be careful making such a post..stephen will think you are serious.

      The subject matter of maths and chemistry as taught at a level has probably changed very little since I studied almost 50 yrs ago...stephen has no need to learn new skills and evaluate new information. For those of us working in more challenging professions where ideas seem to change almost daily the internet is a fantastic tool to enable us to keep up to date. We have also developed the ability to question the evidence relating to new ideas so assessing evidence is something we have been taught and do on a daily basis. Part of any MSc  programme involves how to critique scientific papers. This is one of stephen's weaknesses and combined with his failure not to appreciate the value of google has led him to a poor understanding of the evidence

      Ste
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 04:14:15 PM
      According to Lowe and his colleagues it brought nothing to the party:
      snip >>>>>
      Conclusion
      In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.<<<< snip
      snip >>>>>
      Conclusion
      In the objects recovered from the Scenic, there were around 15 blonde/fair hairs similar to the reference hairs from SJM2, 4 and 5. However, as it was not possible to do solid [definitive] or significant [forensically meaningful] tests it is not possible for me to determine if, or not, these could have been from Madeleine McCann. <<<< snip


      from the report...
      Why - ...

      Well lets look at the question that is being asked

      "Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

      the discussion as to whether the dna matched Maddie  seems to be as a result of a direct question
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 28, 2015, 04:17:19 PM

      from the report...
      Why - ...

      Well lets look at the question that is being asked

      "Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

      the discussion as to whether the dna matched Maddie  seems to be as a result of a direct question

      What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Bimiingham, myself included. lt's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

      Therefore, we cannot answer the question: Is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

      The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 04:19:02 PM
      Why is it such a surprise? Do I make a habit of not providing cites when asked? Tut tut.

      You have read the files you claim, you should then not require a cite should you? but just so as it doesn't bother you all day, let us recap

      I said that Mark Harrison called the alerts without forensic corroboration unconfirmed indications, and that is precisely what he said. So, no, you were very wrong when you accused me of making it up , such haste and willingness to disbelieve a simple statement

      Here is your cite, I await your apology in due course (when pigs grow wings of course)

      During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed INDICATIONS Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

      So there we have it, alerts remain indications

      So indications is just another word for alerts....so the indications have NO evidential value either
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 04:20:58 PM
      What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Bimiingham, myself included. lt's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

      Therefore, we cannot answer the question: Is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

      The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation

      it seems the sceptics want to read something into that report that simply isn't there
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 28, 2015, 04:30:50 PM
      I don't think the alerts brought anything to the investigation,  just hints enough to point the finger at the McCann's which Amaral jumped on.

      The alert in the bedroom is meaningless,  Eddie called back numerous times to finally alert,  to what who knows.

      The alert behind the sofa,  was probably to a speck of blood that Keela also alerted to,   yet if Madeleine had been behind the sofa and had bled from a head injury,  why just a speck of blood?   and why wasn't there any in the grout?    Why didn't Eddie alert to a larger area behind the tiles and not just to the exact spot Keela had?

      The alerts to the clothes,  well were they alerts?   Eddie picks the items of clothing up in his mouth something cadaver dogs are trained not to do,   so they can't be used as evidence at all.   Looking at the alerts it looks as though Eddie is playing a game.

      Alert to Cuddle Cat,   again Eddie in the first video I saw before it was edited,  picked CC up in his mouth and played with it,   did not alert to it at all,  but then Grime hides it in the cupboard and although Eddie seems to be more interested in what is on top of the kitchen unit than the cupboard and barks,  that is seen as an alert to CC.

      Alert to the garden,   who knows what that was,  but it was more than likely to the compost on the soil.

      Alert to the car,  again to the key fob which had Gerry's blood on it,  the other sample taken proved to be from three people even as many as five.

      So my conclusion is the alerts mean nothing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 28, 2015, 04:36:09 PM
      it seems the sceptics want to read something into that report that simply isn't there

      It is not too difficult to understand the words in the conclusions of the report. :

      did not help to clarify  and  it is not possible for me to determine

      Now what do you suppose that means? The full bit is in my earlier post if you want context.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 04:38:16 PM
      you should be careful making such a post..stephen will think you are serious.

      The subject matter of maths and chemistry as taught at a level has probably changed very little since I studied almost 50 yrs ago...stephen has no need to learn new skills and evaluate new information. For those of us working in more challenging professions where ideas seem to change almost daily the internet is a fantastic tool to enable us to keep up to date. We have also developed the ability to question the evidence relating to new ideas so assessing evidence is something we have been taught and do on a daily basis. Part of any MSc  programme involves how to critique scientific papers. This is one of stephen's weaknesses and combined with his failure not to appreciate the value of google has led him to a poor understanding of the evidence

      Ste

      Dear oh dear.

      Science has changed over 50 years and you don't need to think outside a box for that.

      Perhaps you should take a look at the syllabuses these days.

      No more log tables dave and your grasp of Chemistry is weak.

      As to me , google isn't the be all and end all.

      I read books, you've heard of them no doubt, and journals.

      Your repeated mistakes merely reveal that 'googling' knowledge doesn't always help.

      As to evidence dave, you only have one perspective in this case.

      Protect the mccanns.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Vulcair Anasak on August 28, 2015, 04:42:26 PM
      you should be careful making such a post..stephen will think you are serious.

      The subject matter of maths and chemistry as taught at a level has probably changed very little since I studied almost 50 yrs ago...stephen has no need to learn new skills and evaluate new information. For those of us working in more challenging professions where ideas seem to change almost daily the internet is a fantastic tool to enable us to keep up to date. We have also developed the ability to question the evidence relating to new ideas so assessing evidence is something we have been taught and do on a daily basis. Part of any MSc  programme involves how to critique scientific papers. This is one of stephen's weaknesses and combined with his failure not to appreciate the value of google has led him to a poor understanding of the evidence

      Ste

      I couldn't help but notice how you refer to google and the internet as being very resourceful, I must disagree with you as quite a lot of information on the internet is incorrect.

      You have studied A levels "50 yrs ago", 50 years is a long time and in that time technology has enabled us to research and increase our knowledge, which is used to refine education and change it quite drastically.

      " The older you are the wiser you are", this does not apply to you it seems.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 04:43:00 PM
      I couldn't help but notice how you refer to google and the internet as being very resourceful, I must disagree with you as quite a lot of information on the internet is incorrect.

      You have studied A levels "50 yrs ago", 50 years is a long time and in that time technology has enabled us to research and increase our knowledge, which is used to refine education and change it quite drastically.

      " The older you are the wiser you are", this does not apply to you it seems.

       8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 04:43:30 PM

      I read

      Now there's a revelation ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 04:45:49 PM
      Dear oh dear.

      Science has changed over 50 years and you don't need to think outside a box for that

      Perhaps you should take a look at the syllabuses these days.

      No more log tables dave and your grasp of Chemistry is weak.

      As to me , google isn't the be all and end all.

      I read books, you've heard of them no doubt, and journals.

      Your repeated mistakes merely reveal that 'googling' knowledge is not the be all and end all.

      As to evidence dave, you only have one perspective in this case.

      Protect the mccanns.

      I never said science hasn't changed....your attention to detail is very weak

      lets just deal with one of your claims...on what basis do you make the claim that my grasp of chemistry is weak...

      seeing as you were claiming last week that water vapour was not  a gas you are making a fool of yourself once more
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 04:46:55 PM
      Now there's a revelation ....

      It would help if you did.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 04:48:15 PM
      I couldn't help but notice how you refer to google and the internet as being very resourceful, I must disagree with you as quite a lot of information on the internet is incorrect.

      You have studied A levels "50 yrs ago", 50 years is a long time and in that time technology has enabled us to research and increase our knowledge, which is used to refine education and change it quite drastically.

      " The older you are the wiser you are", this does not apply to you it seems.

      first I never referred to the internet as very resourceful I said it was a useful tool..it is....so that's your first mistake..
      I studied a levels nearly 50 yrs ago ..not 50 yrs ago...second mistake
      our  knowledge in many areas has improved...as I said in my field it changes almost daily...
      I also talked about reading scientific papers critically   ...perhaps you just don't understand what that means

      Like stephen your attempts to sound bright just shows that basically...you aint
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 04:48:26 PM
      It would help if you did.

      It so happens that reading has helped me to work out what Grime was really up to in PdL ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 04:48:55 PM
      I never said science hasn't changed....your attention to detail is very weak

      lets just deal with one of your claims...on what basis do you make the claim that my grasp of chemistry is weak...

      seeing as you were claiming last week that water vapour was not  a gas you are making a fool of yourself once more

      That simply reveals yet again a lack of understanding.

      Now as for you.

      Here's your classic.

      pH  -  pOH has significance.

      I challenge anyone on here to prove that is true.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 04:49:52 PM
      It so happens that reading has helped me to work out what Grime was really up to in PdL ...

      As an expert of course in libelling Grime. 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 04:51:14 PM
      As an expert of course in libelling Grime. 8**8:/:

      First educate yourself on what libel is ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 04:52:32 PM
      First educate yourself on what libel is ...

      I'm not the only person to accuse you of that.

      You should read your own posts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 04:54:32 PM
      That simply reveals yet again a lack of understanding.

      Now as for you.

      Here's your classic.

      pH  -  pOH has significance.

      I challenge anyone on here to prove that is true.


      Some of us are still waiting for your explanation of diffusion in the windless car park that made Eddie prance around 10m away from the source behind the sealed car door.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 04:56:14 PM
      That simply reveals yet again a lack of understanding.

      Now as for you.

      Here's your classic.

      pH  -  pOH has significance.

      I challenge anyone on here to prove that is true.

      still spouting rubbish...I have never used the word significance relating to that calculation...that's one of your major problems...you don't read things critically enough. I said it has A value... a numerical value..and it does
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 04:56:29 PM

      Some of us are still waiting for your explanation of diffusion in the windless car park that made Eddie prance around 10m away from the source behind the sealed car door.
      .

      Read up on kinetic theory dear.

      It might help.

      The rate of diffusion is lower on a 'windless' day, but it still occurs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 04:57:31 PM
      still spouting rubbish...I have never used the word significance relating to that calculation...that's one of your major problems...you don't read things critically enough. I said it has A value... a numerical value..and it does

      No it doesn't.

      Not in any known Chemistry in this universe.

      Now prove me wrong.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 04:57:52 PM
      I'm not the only person to accuse you of that.

      You should read your own posts.

      Here's one of them:

      Why did Mark Harrison dismiss both inspections at villa and gym with these terse words?

      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.


      What's your answer?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 05:00:08 PM
      Here's one of them:

      Why did Mark Harrison dismiss both inspections at villa and gym with these terse words?[i/]

      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.


      What's your answer?

      I wasn't there and I don't pretend to be an expert in that field.

      Why don't you contact him yourself ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Vulcair Anasak on August 28, 2015, 05:01:52 PM
      I never said science hasn't changed....your attention to detail is very weak

      lets just deal with one of your claims...on what basis do you make the claim that my grasp of chemistry is weak...

      seeing as you were claiming last week that water vapour was not  a gas you are making a fool of yourself once more

      I apologise grandad. 8)--)) ?>)()<

      (Ignorance is bliss.) 8(*(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 05:02:43 PM
      I wasn't there and I don't pretend to be an expert in that field.

      Why don't you contact him yourself ?

      In which case you presumably don't dispute Harrison when he says that nothing (of an incriminating nature) can be inferred from the dogs' reactions?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 05:02:57 PM
      I apolagise grandad. 8)--)) ?>)()<

      (Ignorance is bliss.) 8(*(

      now you are making a fool of yourself a second time...at least you are good at something
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Vulcair Anasak on August 28, 2015, 05:09:24 PM
      now you are making a fool of yourself a second time...at least you are good at something
      It's called having a sense of humor, not that you would understand. &%&£(+

      I've made a fool of myself a second time, yet you have made mistakes more than I have and I'm very sure that other members will agree to the fact that you are a fool of fools. %£&)**#
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 05:12:16 PM
      It's called having a sense of humor, not that you would understand. &%&£(+

      I've made a fool of myself a second time, yet you have made mistakes more than I have and I'm very sure that other members will agree to the fact that you are a fool of fools. %£&)**#
      I'm sure that poople as stupid as yourself will think I have made mistakes.....there you are a hat trick
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 28, 2015, 05:12:38 PM
      Hey Vulcair, why don't you introduce yourself over on the Trolls thread!  8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 05:15:00 PM
      Hey Vulcair, why don't you introduce yourself over on the Trolls thread!  8((()*/

       @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 28, 2015, 05:15:31 PM
      OK Guys, Please, lets try and adhere to the topic of thread.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Vulcair Anasak on August 28, 2015, 05:17:15 PM
      I'm sure that poople as stupid as yourself will think I have made mistakes.....there you are a hat trick
      If this is not a mistake then what is dave?? &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 05:17:39 PM
      It is not too difficult to understand the words in the conclusions of the report. :

      did not help to clarify  and  it is not possible for me to determine

      Now what do you suppose that means? The full bit is in my earlier post if you want context.

      so the final report says it cannot be confirmed that the dna was maddie's but it can't be ruled out... I don't see any problem with that statement
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 05:18:44 PM
      If this is not a mistake then what is dave?? &%+((£

      that's a typo...you have made several in your recent posts I have not bothered to point them out...or perhaps you just cannot spell
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 28, 2015, 05:20:29 PM
      so the final report says it cannot be confirmed that the dna was maddie's but it can't be ruled out... I don't see any problem with that statement

      Well that was like pulling frigging teeth.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 05:21:20 PM
      .

      Read up on kinetic theory dear.

      It might help.

      The rate of diffusion is lower on a 'windless' day, but it still occurs.

      Double Dutch to me, Stephen.
      All I've asked is for you to explain, in layman's terms, is how diffusion causes scent to be dispersed through the door seal from inside the car when the car is motionless. closed & in an underground car park. Is it really beyond you to help us thickos understand how Eddie could have scented something 10m away but passed the source on several occasions?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 28, 2015, 05:22:50 PM
      Double Dutch to me, Stephen.
      All I've asked is for you to explain, in layman's terms, is how diffusion causes scent to be dispersed through the door seal from inside the car when the car is motionless. closed & in an underground car park. Is it really beyond you to help us thickos understand how Eddie could have scented something 10m away but passed the source on several occasions?
      Ask Alice, he's good at explaining stuff to dunces like us.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 28, 2015, 05:23:27 PM
      Double Dutch to me, Stephen.
      All I've asked is for you to explain, in layman's terms, is how diffusion causes scent to be dispersed through the door seal from inside the car when the car is motionless. closed & in an underground car park. Is it really beyond you to help us thickos understand how Eddie could have scented something 10m away but passed the source on several occasions?

      This has been done before less or more.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 05:24:02 PM
      Double Dutch to me, Stephen.
      All I've asked is for you to explain, in layman's terms, is how diffusion causes scent to be dispersed through the door seal from inside the car when the car is motionless. closed & in an underground car park. Is it really beyond you to help us thickos understand how Eddie could have scented something 10m away but passed the source on several occasions?

      stephen is saying gas molecules move about....and they move about a bit less on a windless day
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 05:25:11 PM
      Double Dutch to me, Stephen.
      All I've asked is for you to explain, in layman's terms, is how diffusion causes scent to be dispersed through the door seal from inside the car when the car is motionless. closed & in an underground car park. Is it really beyond you to help us thickos understand how Eddie could have scented something 10m away but passed the source on several occasions?

      Perhaps you should watch dogs in the field.

      This is what they do.

      And you will be well aware of dogs sense of smell if far more effective than our own and the consequences of that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 05:26:56 PM
      Perhaps you should watch dogs in the field.

      This is what they do.

      absolute rubbish ....can you supply evidence to back this up...I've seen dogs at airports going only once along a queue...you are talking BS
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 05:27:53 PM
      Here is what Grime, in PdL, was really all about.

      This business of testing stuff in one place, then testing it a second time in another (clothes, tested in the villa, transported to the gym and tested a second time; the ignition key of the Scenic, tested in the scenic, transferred to a sand-box and tested a second time somewhere well away from the scenic) precisely replicates Grime's modus operandi on a different occasion, with a different dog and in another continent (Detroit, America and the Bianca Jones case).

      In the Bianca Jones case, also, you had the line-up of cars, much longer than in PdL.

      I am out-of-kilter with many on this (including many whose opinions I respect) but I don't believe I'm wrong.

      I think the essential difference between Morse (whom Grime operated with in Detroit) and most other cadaver dogs is that Morse was desensitised to the scent of blood.

      The weak link in the Eddie-and-Keela combination was that both dogs reacted to the scent of blood.

      What is the point of two dogs that do the same thing?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 05:28:30 PM
      Perhaps you should watch dogs in the field.

      This is what they do.

      Dogs in the field chase rabbits.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 28, 2015, 05:28:53 PM
      Anybody know why the door / windows of the cars weren't left open to make things easier for Eddie, or would that not have made any difference to Super Ed?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 05:29:08 PM
      Here is what Grime, in PdL, was really all about.

      This business of testing stuff in one place, then testing it a second time in another (clothes, tested in the villa, transported to the gym and tested a second time; the ignition key of the Scenic, tested in the scenic, transferred to a sand-box and tested a second time somewhere well away from the scenic) precisely replicates Grime's modus operandi on a different occasion, with a different dog and in another continent (Detroit, America and the Bianca Jones case).

      In the Bianca Jones case, also, you had the line-up of cars, much longer than in PdL.

      I am out-of-kilter with many on this (including many whose opinions I respect) but I don't believe I'm wrong.

      I think the essential difference between Morse (whom Grime operated with in Detroit) and most other cadaver dogs is that Morse was desensitised to the scent of blood.

      The weak link in the Eddie-and-Keela combination was that both dogs reacted to the scent of blood.

      What is the point of two dogs that do the same thing?

      absolutely spot on
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 05:29:42 PM
      absolute rubbish ....can you supply evidence to back this up...I've seen dogs at airports going only once along a queue...you are talking BS

      I don't need to BS dave, you are the expert on that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 05:31:19 PM
      Dogs in the field chase rabbits.

      In the field in this context honest broker means when they are doing their job.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 05:31:25 PM
      I don't need to BS dave, you are the expert on that.

      have you not seen dogs at airports being led once along a queue...never brought up and down several times..
      That's my evidence to back my claim...where's yours
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2015, 05:36:56 PM
      Here is what Grime, in PdL, was really all about.

      This business of testing stuff in one place, then testing it a second time in another (clothes, tested in the villa, transported to the gym and tested a second time; the ignition key of the Scenic, tested in the scenic, transferred to a sand-box and tested a second time somewhere well away from the scenic) precisely replicates Grime's modus operandi on a different occasion, with a different dog and in another continent (Detroit, America and the Bianca Jones case).

      In the Bianca Jones case, also, you had the line-up of cars, much longer than in PdL.

      I am out-of-kilter with many on this (including many whose opinions I respect) but I don't believe I'm wrong.

      I think the essential difference between Morse (whom Grime operated with in Detroit) and most other cadaver dogs is that Morse was desensitised to the scent of blood.

      The weak link in the Eddie-and-Keela combination was that both dogs reacted to the scent of blood.

      What is the point of two dogs that do the same thing?


      As far as I understand it, Ferryman, Morse was fully accredited having been subject to regular independent testing ... also he was trained only on human scent.

      The results he achieved under test conditions are testament to Martin Grime's skill as a trainer
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2015, 05:41:02 PM
      absolutely spot on

      I find the combination perplexing too ... maybe we are missing something?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 05:45:06 PM

      As far as I understand it, Ferryman, Morse was fully accredited having been subject to regular independent testing ... also he was trained only on human scent.

      The results he achieved in under test conditions are testament to Martin Grime's skill as a trainer

      Yep.

      I don't (necessarily) dissent from that ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 05:52:28 PM
      have you not seen dogs at airports being led once along a queue...never brought up and down several times..
      That's my evidence to back my claim...where's yours

      That is not evidence dave.

      Can you cite examples  please.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 28, 2015, 05:54:27 PM
      Perhaps you should watch dogs in the field.

      This is what they do.

      And you will be well aware of dogs sense of smell if far more effective than our own and the consequences of that.


      Yes, I am well aware of just how good trained dogs are in general. However, it has not escaped my attention that they normally move towards the source of a scent rather than away from it, in the same manner that Eddie did in on the beach demonstration video. Please explain what caused the scent to diffuse so far when the car was enclosed underground & not in a field.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 05:55:33 PM
      That is not evidence dave.

      Can you cite examples  please.

      I just have....You have repeatedly claimed posters had not seen scent dogs working... I have and many on here will have seen dogs being led once along a queue at an airport...showing your claims to be BS..
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 05:59:52 PM
      I just have....You have repeatedly claimed posters had not seen scent dogs working... I have and many on here will have seen dogs being led once along a queue at an airport...showing your claims to be BS..

      That is not proof.

      That is on your say so.

      There is a plethora of programs showing dogs in action and they go to and from sites when they are being employed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 06:03:26 PM
      That is not proof.

      That is on your say so.

      There is a plethora of programs showing dogs in action and they go to and from sites when they are being employed.

      Do you see why I criticise your poor ability to properly read a post....you suddenly replace the word evidence with proof as though they are interchangeable  ...they are not..

      could you guide us to one example of the dogs behaving in teh way you have claimed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 28, 2015, 06:06:55 PM
      Do you see why I criticise your poor ability to properly read a post....you suddenly replace the word evidence with proof as though they are interchangeable  ...they are not..

      could you guide us to one example of the dogs behaving in teh way you have claimed

      You are happy with the dog alerts as evidence rather than proof then?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 06:07:37 PM
      That is not proof.

      That is on your say so.

      There is a plethora of programs showing dogs in action and they go to and from sites when they are being employed.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO09LXMd-ps

      what good would these dogs be if they did not react at once to a scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 06:08:49 PM
      You are happy with the dog alerts as evidence rather than proof then?

      haven't you read any of my posts...my opinion is unimportant...Grime's is...the alerts are not evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 06:11:50 PM
      haven't you read any of my posts...my opinion is unimportant...Grime's is...the alerts are not evidence

      Indeed.

      Evidence is allowed in court.

      Uncorroborated dog alerts are not ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 28, 2015, 06:18:56 PM
      Meanwhile dave, we're still waiting for scientific proof that

      pH  -  pOH  means anything at all.

      It seems your sole aim is to disrupt every thread on this forum Stephen.

      Who the hell cares what you know and what you don't.   There is no doubt things you don't know about other subjects,   other posters are not bragging about their knowledge on this forum are they?

      The thread is called 'Amaral and the dogs'.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 06:22:40 PM
      I just have....You have repeatedly claimed posters had not seen scent dogs working... I have and many on here will have seen dogs being led once along a queue at an airport...showing your claims to be BS..

      I'm afraid dave, you need more than that.

      Now tell me dave. what range of materials do dogs look for at airports ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 06:53:10 PM
      so it seem that scent dogs alert immediately to the scent they are trained for and do not require constantly being brought back for another go
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 06:58:10 PM
      You are happy with the dog alerts as evidence rather than proof then?

      The dog alerts are intelligence!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 06:59:47 PM
      The dog alerts are intelligence!

      so once again...what do the alerts tell us... I would say b....r all
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 07:01:03 PM
      so once again...what do the alerts tell us... I would say b....r all

      In a nut-shell!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 28, 2015, 08:19:08 PM
      In a nut-shell!

      Then let's hope SY agree with you.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 08:21:02 PM
      Then let's hope SY agree with you.

      as they have said maddie may still be alive they obviously do
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 09:14:15 PM
      as they have said maddie may still be alive they obviously do

      Is that somewhere on top of a big fluffy mountain near a lawless village 10 miles from PDL ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 09:51:28 PM
      Quote from: Brietta
      Deposition of: JOHN ROBERT LOWE BSc CBiol MlBiol RFP Age: Older than 18

      Profession of Witness: Forensic Scientist

      FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 8
      An incomplete, low-level DNA profile that matched corresponding components in the profile of Gerald McCann was obtained from cellular material present on the card key -  (286C/2007-CRL (12)).
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm

      Just to clarify matters for you ...
      there is no 'cherry picking' or obfuscation involved as I have made it plain that the reference quoted was made by Mr Grime in relation to what he had to say about Eddie's deployment in the garage
      what a pity you assume I was patronising you as you have progressed to illustrate that you have clearly not understood what has been previously posted ... let me explain ...
      Eddie woofed ... not at the boot where Keela subsequently alerted ... but at the driver's door of the Renault ... where Keela also alerted
      according to Mr Grime Keela alerts only to blood ... therefore both these alerts were to blood
      the Renault was moved to another floor of the garage
      the key fob was secreted at a distance (fire service's bucket of sand)
      Keela alerted to the key fob
      Eddie alerted to the key fob
      Eddie did not alert to the Renault from which the key fob had been removed
      therefore Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent
      Eddie alerted to what Keela did ... which we are told could only have been blood
      I hope that helps you to a better understanding of my post.

      You said nothng about Grime's comments pertaining to the garage, if you had done I wouldn't have responded with the words I did (ie that the only place he said in his opinion Eddie may have been alerting to cadaver scent OR blood)


      Quote from: Brietta
      As far as I understand it, Ferryman, Morse was fully accredited having been subject to regular independent testing ... also he was trained only on human scent.

      Cite? morse was being trained in the UK in 2008, and as we are told, training on human bodies is illegal.



       
      Quote from: Brietta
      ... and even if the hairs had been Madeleine's, without a root they would have signified nothing other than they were hers.

      If death banding had been looked for, they would have signified more, but the PJs's request seems to have been ignored by the UK


      Quote from: Anna

      The more benevolent  minded, of members, remain to question or even rule out the alerts of the dog, which I might add…have no evidential value, without corroboration of evidential proof.

      Whereas the more sceptic views, of other members remain in the believe that the alerts from the EVRD were evidence of  cadaver scent. Who knows? They may be correct, but there is no evidence to support this.

      IMO, The latter group would still be blaming the parents, even if the dogs hadn’t been brought in, whereas the former believe in innocent until proven otherwise.

      A book is the cause of all of this and the fact that this case (unlike others) has all the PJ files online for all to study…. Only My opinion, of course.

      Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent, it is not somethng plucked out of "sceptics unbenevolent" heads.

      Which book? Surely not Amaral's? The news about the cadaver dog alerts was in the public domain and under discussion in the summer of 2007 a whole year before he published his book.


      Quote from: davel
      So indications is just another word for alerts....so the indications have NO evidential value either

      No, an alert gives an indication of something, not the same, two different things. The indication, given by the EVRD dog's alerts, (and yes there are other EVRDs in use by police in the UK according to the BBC at least) in Grime's  own words, is to cadaver scent contaminant. (Or blood - the latter only in the case of the garage searches)
      Unconfirmed indications have been described as legitimate cause for concern/suspicion, not much else on their own, but indications remain intelligence/circumstantial evidence. [/quote]

      Quote from: Ferryman
      Why did Mark Harrison dismiss both inspections at villa and gym with these terse words?
      Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4508.15


      Quote from: davel
      I'm sure that poople as stupid as yourself will think I have made mistakes.....there you are a hat trick

      Why do you feel the need to continuously break forum rules, being derogatory and calling people fools, stupid, uneducated, with poor understanding, and so on? Just wondering.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 28, 2015, 10:04:31 PM
      You said nothng about Grime's comments pertaining to the garage, if you had done I wouldn't have responded with the words I did (ie that the only place he said in his opinion Eddie may have been alerting to cadaver scent OR blood)


      Cite? morse was being trained in the UK in 2008, and as we are told, training on human bodies is illegal.



       
      If death banding had been looked for, they would have signified more, but the PJs's request seems to have been ignored by the UK

       
      Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent, it is not somethng plucked out of "sceptics unbenevolent" heads.

      Which book? Surely not Amaral's? The news about the cadaver dog alerts was in the public domain and under discussion in the summer of 2007 a whole year before he published his book.


      No, an alert gives an indication of something, not the same, two different things. The indication, given by the EVRD dog's alerts, (and yes there are other EVRDs in use by police in the UK according to the BBC at least) in Grime's  own words, is to cadaver scent contaminant. (Or blood - the latter only in the case of the garage searches)
      Unconfirmed indications have been described as legitimate cause for concern/suspicion, not much else on their own, but indications remain intelligence/circumstantial evidence.
      Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4508.15


      Why do you feel the need to continuously break forum rules, being derogatory and calling people fools, stupid, uneducated, with poor understanding, and so on? Just wondering.

      Apparently the root cause in many instances is lack of self esteem and a feeling of inferiority.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 10:10:20 PM
      Apparently the root cause in many instances is lack of self esteem and a feeling of inferiority.

      Would overstating/massaging facts about ones own abilities activities and achievements fit into the belittle as much as possible profile?

      Wrists are going to get slapped now
       8)-)))

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 10:11:02 PM
      You said nothng about Grime's comments pertaining to the garage, if you had done I wouldn't have responded with the words I did (ie that the only place he said in his opinion Eddie may have been alerting to cadaver scent OR blood)


      Cite? morse was being trained in the UK in 2008, and as we are told, training on human bodies is illegal.



       
      If death banding had been looked for, they would have signified more, but the PJs's request seems to have been ignored by the UK

       
      Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent, it is not somethng plucked out of "sceptics unbenevolent" heads.

      Which book? Surely not Amaral's? The news about the cadaver dog alerts was in the public domain and under discussion in the summer of 2007 a whole year before he published his book.


      No, an alert gives an indication of something, not the same, two different things. The indication, given by the EVRD dog's alerts, (and yes there are other EVRDs in use by police in the UK according to the BBC at least) in Grime's  own words, is to cadaver scent contaminant. (Or blood - the latter only in the case of the garage searches)
      Unconfirmed indications have been described as legitimate cause for concern/suspicion, not much else on their own, but indications remain intelligence/circumstantial evidence.
      Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4508.15


      Why do you feel the need to continuously break forum rules, being derogatory and calling people fools, stupid, uneducated, with poor understanding, and so on? Just wondering.

      you seem to have  a problem with the truth...Grime never said that...the rest of your post is full of rubbish too...particularly the innaccurate attack against me

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 10:11:33 PM
      Mercury:

      Why did Mark Harrison dismiss both inspections at villa and gym with these terse words?
      Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were


      My evidence is that if you read the whole of Harrison's summary (from which my extract is taken) you will find he acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs in some searches, but not others.

      Here is the full summary:

      Note that Harrison acknowledges the participation of Grime and his dogs only in the searches he recommended, the places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably, please God not!) MIGHT have been.

      In those searches Harrison had nothing to do with, he does not acknowledge the input of Grime and his dogs.

      The timeline of these searches was as follows:
       
      On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
       
      On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
       
      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
       
      On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
       
      On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
       
      On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
       
      On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
       
      On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 10:16:39 PM
      Apparently the root cause in many instances is lack of self esteem and a feeling of inferiority.

      I think there is a lot of insecurity on this forum...you and others included. That's four posters who have posted unsolicited personal  attacks against me this evening...most of which have been removed. Of course the small minded then post one of my responses totally out of context...yes...insecurity...lack of self esteem...just plain stupidity in some cases. I am quite flattered by yours and others continued personal attacks against me....if you think I am in the slightest offended by these posts you are very much mistaken
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 10:18:04 PM
      Would overstating/massaging facts about ones own abilities activities and achievements fit into the belittle as much as possible profile?

      Wrists are going to get slapped now
       8)-)))

      I've led such an interesting successful life it is not surprising that you and others find it  incredible
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 28, 2015, 10:18:18 PM
      Mercury:

      Why did Mark Harrison dismiss both inspections at villa and gym with these terse words?
      Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were


      My evidence is that if you read the whole of Harrison's summary (from which my extract is taken) you will find he acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs in some searches, but not others.

      Here is the full summary:

      Note that Harrison acknowledges the participation of Grime and his dogs only in the searches he recommended, the places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably, please God not!) MIGHT have been.

      In those searches Harrison had nothing to do with, he does not acknowledge the input of Grime and his dogs.

      The timeline of these searches was as follows:
       
      On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
       
      On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
       
      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
       
      On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
       
      On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
       
      On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
       
      On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
       
      On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.


      Clutching at straws?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 10:20:12 PM
      you seem to have  a problem with the truth...Grime never said that...the rest of your post is full of rubbish too...particularly the innaccurate attack against me

      You seem to have a comprehension problem..Grime did say that

      And yes, my observation of your behaviour is extremely accurate
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 10:22:25 PM
      You seem to have a comprehension problem..Grime did say that

      no he didn't...you seem to have a reading problem...Grime said it was suggestive of cadaver odour NOT that it was...this has been pointed out several times to you but has not yet sunk in...try reading your own post..it's there...

      Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 10:25:06 PM
      I've led such an interesting successful life it is not surprising that you and others find it  incredible

       8(*( 8(*( 8(*(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 10:25:37 PM
      no he didn't...you seem to have a reading problem...Grime said it was suggestive of cadaver odour NOT that it was...this has been pointed out several times to you but has not yet sunk in...try reading your own post..it's there...

      Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent

      Semantics won't help you
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 10:27:08 PM
      Clutching at straws?

      Scarcely.

      Grime acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs in the search of: holiday apartments, the villa of the Murats',  and areas in and around PdL.

      Both inspections at the gym and the McCanns' villa he summarises as PJ exercises.

      And while Harrison did recommend an inspection of vehicles, he recommended only that vehicles owned or driven by Murat should be inspected.

      There were 3, one of which never made it, while 8 Harrison never said anything about did make it.

      Harrison gives no clue who took part in that inspection.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 10:29:22 PM
      8(*( 8(*( 8(*(

      Something else for you stephen....I have posted before that the reason I find trolls so offensive is that I have been a victim myself. I have appeared on TV several times and someone posted a clip on you tube that attracted some vile comments...fortunately the clip has now been removed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 10:29:43 PM
      I think there is a lot of insecurity on this forum...you and others included. That's four posters who have posted unsolicited personal  attacks against me this evening...most of which have been removed. Of course the small minded then post one of my responses totally out of context...yes...insecurity...lack of self esteem...just plain stupidity in some cases. I am quite flattered by yours and others continued personal attacks against me....if you think I am in the slightest offended by these posts you are very much mistaken

      People don't wake up in the morning thnking, what shall I do today? oh, I know, let's go and attack the poster with the handle Davel. No, chum, it's very very simple....you dish it out, you should be man enough to take it back without bleating and squirming and crying bullying...as I said, simple as that...no one gives you the right to unsolicedly call people stupid, pathetic OR in MY case, when you told me two weeks ago to go back in the kitchen where I belong and proceed to cook a "frozen dinner for one" as IF you know anything about me

      you should address the more peurile aspects of your online forum behaviour IMHO of course

      I'm surprised Anna/Eleanor who were reading at the time left your "you are stupid" remarks standing too

      Edited for spelling mistakes (just so you know I can spell as could the newbie who you accused of making "several spelling mistakes" which of course was a total lie on your behalf)


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 10:31:18 PM
      I've led such an interesting successful life it is not surprising that you and others find it  incredible

      You just can't help yourself can you?

       @)(++(*

      Do explain why it is not surprising..but do be very careful you don't hoist yourself by your own petard
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 28, 2015, 10:31:43 PM
      Something else for you stephen....I have posted before that the reason I find trolls so offensive is that I have been a victim myself. I have appeared on TV several times and someone posted a clip on you tube that attracted some vile comments...fortunately the clip has now been removed

      Yet you cannot offer one iota of proof to back any of this up.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 10:32:18 PM
      Prople don't wake up in the morning thnking, what shall I do today? oh, I know, let's go and attack the poster with the handle Davel. No, chum, it's very very simple....you dish it out, you should be man enough to take it back without bleating and squirming and crying bullying...as I said, simple as that...no one gives you the right to unsolicedly call people stupid, pathetic OR in MY case, when you told me two weeks ago to go back in the kitchen where I belong and proceed to cook a "frozen dinner for one" as IF you know anything about me

      you should address the more peurile aspects of your online forum behaviour IMHO of course

      I'm quite happy to take it...no squirming...you seem to post later...is it when you've finished your housework...you have made personal attacks on me tonight....don't whinge if you get it back in buckets
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 10:33:02 PM
      Yet you cannot offer one iota of proof to back any of this up.

      yes I can...you never learn do you
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 10:34:29 PM
      Scarcely.

      Grime acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs in the search of: holiday apartments, the villa of the Murats',  and areas in and around PdL.

      Both inspections at the gym and the McCanns' villa he summarises as PJ exercises.

      And while Harrison did recommend an inspection of vehicles, he recommended only that vehicles owned or driven by Murat should be inspected.

      There were 3, one of which never made it, while 8 Harrison never said anything about did make it.

      Harrison gives no clue who took part in that inspection.

      Either you suffer from a very very bad memory problem or you are lying here, which  is it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 10:35:36 PM
      Either you suffer from a very very bad memory problem or you are lying here, which  is it?

      Neither
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 10:37:53 PM
      Either you suffer from a very very bad memory problem or you are lying here, which  is it?

      Murat's Vehicles.

      All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
      examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.


      Mark Harrison
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 10:38:26 PM
      I'm quite happy to take it...no squirming...you seem to post later...is it when you've finished your housework...you have made personal attacks on me tonight....don't whinge if you get it back in buckets

      you have just proved my point, thanks so much

       8((()*/

      Now, I think your pathetic shenanigans have taken up too much of my valuable time, so carry on elsewhere and with others  pet, but good luck

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 10:40:11 PM
      you have just proved my point, thanks so much

       8((()*/

      you don't have any valid points...I see you have ignored the on topic post where i pointed out your failure to understand what grime said
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 28, 2015, 10:40:39 PM
      Topic....If you please. And leave out the goading and insults.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 10:42:42 PM
      Murat's Vehicles.

      All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
      examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.


      Mark Harrison

      no one is disputing THAT, why cherry pick and waste time?  you are trying to convince the forum that Mark Harrison never asked for any other vehicles to be inspected, which is of course totally untrue, so why bother, the facts are available and citable....and will prove you wrong...."rolly eyes"
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 10:43:06 PM
      so the alerts...they have NO evidential reliability...and despite all the hot air no one has been able to tell us what if anything they have added to the investigation. Basically the alerts are meaningless
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 10:44:49 PM
      Either you suffer from a very very bad memory problem or you are lying here, which  is it?

      Here is what might be confusing you:

      Key part underlined.

      The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07.
      It recommended considering re searching:
       
      - All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
      - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
      - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
      - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
      - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.


      Decisions were taken to search vehicles other than Murats' vehicles.

      But the way Harrison words it makes plain the decisions were not taken by him.

      And another thing: note an absence from the above.  No mention of the gym.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 10:46:18 PM
      no one is disputing THAT, why cherry pick and waste time?  you are trying to convince the forum that Mark Harrison never asked for any other vehicles to be inspected, which is of course totally untrue, so why bother, the facts are available and citable....and will prove you wrong...."rolly eyes"

      Why get arsey just because you've lost the argument?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 10:50:02 PM
      Why get arsey just because you've lost the argument?

      So when I post facts I am "arsey" why not keep to them? And admit you are tryng to spread misinformation?

      How have I lost the argument when it is a fact you are wrong? This is getting a little stupid at best...you are stating that Harrison ONLY recommended Murats vehicles be tested...this is demonstrably untrue...so it's you who have lost the argument, the evidence is in the files, egg on face much?

      ONE link, there is another

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P11/11_VOLUME_XIa_Page_2837.jpg
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 10:51:49 PM
      So when I post facts I am "arsey" why not keep to them? And admit you are tryng to spread misinformation?

      How have I lost the argument when it is a fact you are wrong? This is getting a little stupid at best...you are stating that Harrison ONLY recommended Murats vehicles be tested...this is demonstrably untrue...so it's you who have lost the argument, the evidence is in the files, egg on face much?

      Which (germane) facts have you posted?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 10:55:54 PM
      Which (germane) facts have you posted?

      The  fact that Harrison did ask for other vehicles to be searched apart fromMurats!! End of.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:01:38 PM
      Here is what might be confusing you:

      Key part underlined.

      The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07.
      It recommended considering re searching:
       
      - All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
      - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
      - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
      - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
      - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.


      Decisions were taken to search vehicles other than Murats' vehicles.

      But the way Harrison words it makes plain the decisions were not taken by him.

      And another thing: note an absence from the above.  No mention of the gym.

      the recommendations were presented TO the PJ therefore they came FROM the UK side, so.....your post doesn't help much in anything...as for the gym....so what? The PJ , if they did alone, made a decision to screen clothes, I don't recall Harrison or Grime objecting to this....or making any comment at all...so.....?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 11:02:09 PM
      The  fact that Harrison did ask for other vehicles to be searched apart fromMurats!! End of.

      No.

      In everything Harrison, himself, recommended his language is plain and direct.

      You are left in no doubt his recommendations are his.

      He prefaces every recommendation not his with the words it [the process] recommended.

      The decisions were others, not his.

      More than that, they defied logic because they were places or things (cars etc) Madeleine never went near.

      And did you notice that absence?

      The gym!

      Where did that come from?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:06:11 PM
      No.

      In everything Harrison, himself, recommended his language is plain and direct.

      You are left in no doubt his recommendations are his.

      He prefaces every recommendation not his with the words it [the process] recommended.

      The decisions were others, not his.

      More than that, they defied logic because they were places or things (cars etc) Madeleine never went near.

      The police were not to know that so it was within their remit to investigate everything...you and others slag them off for not investigating properly and when they do you still slag them off.....or is it a case of investigating the parents is off limits?? They took three months to do so and only on the urgency of the UK advisers, if you want to blame anyone blame the UK authorities....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 11:08:59 PM
      The police were not to know that so it was within their remit to investigate everything...you and others slag them off for not investigating properly and when they do you still slag them off.....or is it a case of investigating the parents is off limits?? They took three months to do so and only on the urgency of the UK advisers, if you want to blame anyone blame the UK authorities....

      the parents have been investigated and ruled out...try and remember that
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 11:10:11 PM
      The police were not to know that so it was within their remit to investigate everything...you and others slag them off for not investigating properly and when they do you still slag them off.....or is it a case of investigating the parents is off limits?? They took three months to do so and only on the urgency of the UK advisers

      Of course they were to know that.  How much time elapsed between events of May 3rd and the McCanns moving into the villa?

      You don't seriously think anyone would countenance the McCanns smuggling a (dead!) Madeleine into the villa they rented several days after May 3rd, do you?

      Or that a (dead) Madeleine might have been smuggled somewhere in a car hired 3 weeks after May 3rd?

      That's absurd.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:10:46 PM
      the parents have been investigated and ruled out...try and remember that

      Cite?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 11:11:52 PM
      Cite?

      the archiving report....and Redwood stating they are not suspects
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:14:16 PM
      Of course they were to know that.  How much time elapsed between events of May 3rd and the McCanns moving into the villa?

      You don't seriously think anyone would countenance the McCanns smuggling a (dead!) Madeleine into the villa they rented several days after May 3rd, do you?

      Or that a (dead) Madeleine might have been smuggled somewhere in a car hired 3 weeks after May 3rd?

      That's absurd.

      I didn't say that. After the alerts in 5a they will have wanted to know if the scent "followed them" in any shape or form, and it did with the clothes alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 11:15:29 PM
      harrison brought in the dogs to investigate maddies murder...

      In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

      the pj used the dogs to investigate the parents... this was not Harrisons idea
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 11:17:13 PM
      I didn't say that. After the alerts in 5a they will have wanted to know if the scent "followed them" in any shape or form, and it did with the clothes alerts

      Oh come on.

      There were no alerts to any clothes.

      A dog barked and picked stuff up in its mouth.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 11:18:05 PM
      I didn't say that. After the alerts in 5a they will have wanted to know if the scent "followed them" in any shape or form, and it did with the clothes alerts

      don't forget eddie alerting to cadaver in the car...used to transport the dead maddie...but he didn't...amaral got everything back to front again
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:18:30 PM
      the archiving report....and Redwood stating they are not suspects

      The archiving report did not clear them, that is false, and Redwoods statement was taken out of context...and you have no idea if he was not just "sound biting want to hear words"....I mean, what has he achieved exactly? Zero.

      No one has "cleared" the Mccanns, all that happened is the case was shelved and their Arguido status removed as part of that process
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:20:10 PM
      Oh come on.

      There were no alerts to any clothes.

      A dog barked and picked stuff up in its mouth.

      Grime says Eddie won't bark unless he finds the scent he's been trained on...dead bodies...he barked...

      I will leave this thread for now as I feel I am hogging it...good luck
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lyall on August 28, 2015, 11:20:56 PM
      Of course they were to know that.  How much time elapsed between events of May 3rd and the McCanns moving into the villa?

      You don't seriously think anyone would countenance the McCanns smuggling a (dead!) Madeleine into the villa they rented several days after May 3rd, do you?

      Or that a (dead) Madeleine might have been smuggled somewhere in a car hired 3 weeks after May 3rd?

      That's absurd.

      It's part of their job to think the unthinkable. They'll have seen, heard of or read of weirder. Much weirder.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:23:09 PM
      don't forget eddie alerting to cadaver in the car...used to transport the dead maddie...but he didn't...amaral got everything back to front again
      my last post on this thread tonight....finding cadaver scent contaminant in a car does not have to mean a body was transported in it, keep up old chum, you might learn something
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 11:26:15 PM
      The archiving report did not clear them, that is false, and Redwoods statement was taken out of context...and you have no idea if he was not just "sound biting want to hear words"....I mean, what has he achieved exactly? Zero.

      No one has "cleared" the Mccanns, all that happened is the case was shelved and their Arguido status removed as part of that process

      never used the word clear....you don't like it but the mccanns have been ruled out...anyone who does not realise that is seriously deluded
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 11:27:24 PM
      my last post on this thread tonight....finding cadaver scent contaminant in a car does not have to mean a body was transported in it, keep up old chum, you might learn something

      there was no cadaver scent in the car
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 11:27:56 PM
      harrison brought in the dogs to investigate maddies murder...

      In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

      the pj used the dogs to investigate the parents... this was not Harrisons idea

      Right.

      And what you quote also illustrates that no one considered the McCanns' rented villa as a possible resting-place for a (dead) Madeleine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 28, 2015, 11:28:08 PM
      Grime says Eddie won't bark unless he finds the scent he's been trained on...dead bodies...he barked...

      I will leave this thread for now as I feel I am hogging it...good luck

      obviously not true...he alerts to blood...you haven't got  a clue..
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2015, 11:31:06 PM
      You said nothng about Grime's comments pertaining to the garage, if you had done I wouldn't have responded with the words I did (ie that the only place he said in his opinion Eddie may have been alerting to cadaver scent OR blood)


      Cite? morse was being trained in the UK in 2008, and as we are told, training on human bodies is illegal.



       
      If death banding had been looked for, they would have signified more, but the PJs's request seems to have been ignored by the UK

       
      Martin Grime states that in his professional opinion the alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent, it is not somethng plucked out of "sceptics unbenevolent" heads.

      Which book? Surely not Amaral's? The news about the cadaver dog alerts was in the public domain and under discussion in the summer of 2007 a whole year before he published his book.


      No, an alert gives an indication of something, not the same, two different things. The indication, given by the EVRD dog's alerts, (and yes there are other EVRDs in use by police in the UK according to the BBC at least) in Grime's  own words, is to cadaver scent contaminant. (Or blood - the latter only in the case of the garage searches)
      Unconfirmed indications have been described as legitimate cause for concern/suspicion, not much else on their own, but indications remain intelligence/circumstantial evidence.
      Dismiss - treat as unworthy...where's your evidence he did any more than just state what the PJ exercises were

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=4508.15


      Why do you feel the need to continuously break forum rules, being derogatory and calling people fools, stupid, uneducated, with poor understanding, and so on? Just wondering.

      Think about it very carefully.

      Hair does not grow post mortem ~ it is already dead. 
      Only that part of the hair which was alive at the moment of death can 'die'.  That is the root.  Which is why I mentioned 'root' in my post and the lack of which may be why the PJ request was "ignored".


      Although it has been generally accepted within the forensic hair community that decompositional changes in the form of an identifiable banding pattern can occur in the root area of hairs after death, little detailed information with regard to this phenomenon is known(e.g., rates at which this occurs and conditions that cause this banding).
      http://www.academia.edu/11721363/Taphonomy_of_Hair_A_Study_of_Postmortem_Root_Banding
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:41:03 PM
      Think about it very carefully.

      Hair does not grow post mortem ~ it is already dead. 
      Only that part of the hair which was alive at the moment of death can 'die'.  That is the root.  Which is why I mentioned 'root' in my post and the lack of which may be why the PJ request was "ignored".


      Although it has been generally accepted within the forensic hair community that decompositional changes in the form of an identifiable banding pattern can occur in the root area of hairs after death, little detailed information with regard to this phenomenon is known(e.g., rates at which this occurs and conditions that cause this banding).
      http://www.academia.edu/11721363/Taphonomy_of_Hair_A_Study_of_Postmortem_Root_Banding

      Noted, now, awaiting the response to my other questions especially, or only so not to labour, the cite for Morse being trained ONLY on humans, in your own time
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 28, 2015, 11:51:22 PM
      harrison brought in the dogs to investigate maddies murder...

      In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

      the pj used the dogs to investigate the parents... this was not Harrisons idea
      "In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination......."

      If you read on you will find these locations within zone 1 which MH recommends searching again more thoroughly  are listed. And in that list we find ...

      "The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present"

      These are MH's words, not Amaral's.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 28, 2015, 11:52:16 PM
      Noted, now, awaiting the response to my other questions especially, or only so not to labour, the cite for Morse being trained ONLY on humans, in your own time

      Go back and read my original post in its entirety which you failed to do first time round and see where you went wrong.

      If you contend Morse was trained on pig ... fine by me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 28, 2015, 11:53:07 PM
      "In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination......."

      If you read on you will find these locations within zone 1 which MH recommends searching again more thoroughly  are listed. And in that list we find ...

      "The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present"

      These are MH's words, not Amaral's.

      True.

      But look at Harrison's terms of reference.

      He worked to those.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 28, 2015, 11:57:03 PM
      Go back and read my original post in its entirety which you failed to do first time round and see where you went wrong.

      If you contend Morse was trained on pig ... fine by me.

      No, you stated Morse was trained solely on humans, it's up to YOU go back this assertion up

      YOUR post 4241 (as it stands now just in case there are any deletions subsequent to this post)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 12:05:23 AM
      True.

      But look at Harrison's terms of reference.

      He worked to those.
      Nowhere do his terms of reference state he must select that apartment for EVRD search.
      It was he who selected it, not Amaral.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 12:10:35 AM
      No, you stated Morse was trained solely on humans, it's up to YOU go back this assertion up

      Morse gets a fleeting reference in Grime's PdL profile as (then) a pup.

      And here is an article from the Detroit Free Press and the Bianca Jones case:

      ugust 24, 2012
      The Detroit News
      Christine Ferretti

      Detroit — A canine expert whose dog allegedly detected a cadaver scent in the home of a missing toddler will be allowed to testify at the murder trial of the girl's father, a judge ruled Friday.

      Wayne County Circuit Judge Vonda R. Evans made the ruling after attorneys for D'Andre Lane spent more than two hours trying to discredit the relatively new scientific method. Lane is charged with first-degree murder and child abuse in the death of his 2-year-old daughter, Bianca Jones

      "I believe the evidence offered is sufficient to go forward. The people should be allowed to demonstrate to a jury that your client was implicated in this particular murder," Evans told the defense. "I think your argument is to weight as opposed to admissibility."

      The court Friday also denied a defense motion to halt proceedings in the case while the state Court of Appeals evaluates efforts by Lane's attorneys to have the case tossed out. The attorneys said they also plan to appeal Friday's ruling.

      Two forensic canine experts testified Friday before Evans ruled to admit at trial the potential evidence, which is key for prosecutors in the case against Lane.

      Danian Woodson, an attorney for Lane, tried to argue against the cadaver dog evidence. But Evans cut her off and denied the motion.

      After the hearing, Woodson said the alleged evidence is "not admissible, not relevant, highly prejudicial and should be excluded."

      Lane has claimed Bianca was in the back seat of his 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis on the morning of Dec. 2 when he was approached by armed carjackers near Brush Street and Grand River.

      The vehicle was found shortly after, but the child was not inside. Her body has not been found.

      Forensic canine expert Martin Grime testified Friday and at Lane's prior preliminary examination that he brought in his victim recovery dog, Morse, two days after the girl went missing. He said the dog detected a cadaver scent inside Lane's car, on the child's blanket and car seat, and in the girl's bedroom and Lane's home.

      Grime said the dogs detect only the generic scent of human decomposition. The dogs, he said, cannot determine identity, age, race, gender or the rate of decomposition.

      Grime testified in court Friday that Morse has never had a false positive response, and that testing done just prior and after the dog worked in the Jones case was successful.

      "I believe that the testimony, his conclusion is based on principles and methods that have been in place for several years," Evans said of Grime.

      Also Friday, Rex A. Stockham, a special agent for the FBI who oversees its forensic canine program, said the agency has been studying the science for about a decade.

      The FBI began testing contract and volunteer teams for the human scent detection program in 2008, Stockham said. The agency has three full-time dogs working in the country.

      The dogs are tested annually to ensure they meet best practices standards. Morse has only been tested one time, Stockham said.


      Prosecutors allege Lane beat the toddler to death with an 18-inch stick with a towel wrapped in duct tape at the end over a potty training incident.

      Lane's attorney, Terry Johnson, contends Lane did "spank" the child with the stick, but that there was no evidence of child abuse or murder since the girl's whereabouts is unknown.

      Lane told Detroit Police he left his home around 7:45 a.m. Dec. 2. He dropped his nephew and 8-year-old daughter off before visiting a gas station, Wayne County Community College in Detroit and, with a friend, near the Greyhound bus station on Howard Street. The carjacking, Lane claimed, occurred just afterward, with only him and Bianca in the vehicle.

      FBI agent Christopher Hess testified at Lane's preliminary examination that the defendant was unable to explain where he was for a 45-minute window around the time his daughter disappeared.

      Lane's girlfriend, Anjali Lyons, has testified she awoke Dec. 2 to Bianca's screams as Lane used the stick to beat the toddler for urinating in bed. Later the same morning, Lane carried a silent Bianca to his car. She was covered with an animal print blanket.

      Lane's trial is slated for Sept. 18.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 12:14:39 AM
      Nowhere do his terms of reference state he must select that apartment for EVRD search.
      It was he who selected it, not Amaral.

      Sorry, yes, the apartment was Harrison's recommendation, but not the villa.

      Is that what you mean?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 12:15:09 AM
      Morse gets a fleeting reference in Grime's PdL profile as (then) a pup.

      And here is an article from the Detroit Free Press and the Bianca Jones case:

      ugust 24, 2012
      The Detroit News
      Christine Ferretti

      Detroit — A canine expert whose dog allegedly detected a cadaver scent in the home of a missing toddler will be allowed to testify at the murder trial of the girl's father, a judge ruled Friday.

      Wayne County Circuit Judge Vonda R. Evans made the ruling after attorneys for D'Andre Lane spent more than two hours trying to discredit the relatively new scientific method. Lane is charged with first-degree murder and child abuse in the death of his 2-year-old daughter, Bianca Jones

      "I believe the evidence offered is sufficient to go forward. The people should be allowed to demonstrate to a jury that your client was implicated in this particular murder," Evans told the defense. "I think your argument is to weight as opposed to admissibility."

      The court Friday also denied a defense motion to halt proceedings in the case while the state Court of Appeals evaluates efforts by Lane's attorneys to have the case tossed out. The attorneys said they also plan to appeal Friday's ruling.

      Two forensic canine experts testified Friday before Evans ruled to admit at trial the potential evidence, which is key for prosecutors in the case against Lane.

      Danian Woodson, an attorney for Lane, tried to argue against the cadaver dog evidence. But Evans cut her off and denied the motion.

      After the hearing, Woodson said the alleged evidence is "not admissible, not relevant, highly prejudicial and should be excluded."

      Lane has claimed Bianca was in the back seat of his 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis on the morning of Dec. 2 when he was approached by armed carjackers near Brush Street and Grand River.

      The vehicle was found shortly after, but the child was not inside. Her body has not been found.

      Forensic canine expert Martin Grime testified Friday and at Lane's prior preliminary examination that he brought in his victim recovery dog, Morse, two days after the girl went missing. He said the dog detected a cadaver scent inside Lane's car, on the child's blanket and car seat, and in the girl's bedroom and Lane's home.

      Grime said the dogs detect only the generic scent of human decomposition. The dogs, he said, cannot determine identity, age, race, gender or the rate of decomposition.

      Grime testified in court Friday that Morse has never had a false positive response, and that testing done just prior and after the dog worked in the Jones case was successful.

      "I believe that the testimony, his conclusion is based on principles and methods that have been in place for several years," Evans said of Grime.

      Also Friday, Rex A. Stockham, a special agent for the FBI who oversees its forensic canine program, said the agency has been studying the science for about a decade.

      The FBI began testing contract and volunteer teams for the human scent detection program in 2008, Stockham said. The agency has three full-time dogs working in the country.

      The dogs are tested annually to ensure they meet best practices standards. Morse has only been tested one time, Stockham said.


      Prosecutors allege Lane beat the toddler to death with an 18-inch stick with a towel wrapped in duct tape at the end over a potty training incident.

      Lane's attorney, Terry Johnson, contends Lane did "spank" the child with the stick, but that there was no evidence of child abuse or murder since the girl's whereabouts is unknown.

      Lane told Detroit Police he left his home around 7:45 a.m. Dec. 2. He dropped his nephew and 8-year-old daughter off before visiting a gas station, Wayne County Community College in Detroit and, with a friend, near the Greyhound bus station on Howard Street. The carjacking, Lane claimed, occurred just afterward, with only him and Bianca in the vehicle.

      FBI agent Christopher Hess testified at Lane's preliminary examination that the defendant was unable to explain where he was for a 45-minute window around the time his daughter disappeared.

      Lane's girlfriend, Anjali Lyons, has testified she awoke Dec. 2 to Bianca's screams as Lane used the stick to beat the toddler for urinating in bed. Later the same morning, Lane carried a silent Bianca to his car. She was covered with an animal print blanket.

      Lane's trial is slated for Sept. 18.


      And that long winded emboldened quote proves Morse was trained solely on humans?

      Where?

      Do you understand the meaning of the term wasting bandwidth?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 12:20:44 AM
      And that long winded emboldened quote proves Morse was trained solely on humans?

      Where?

      Do you understand the meaning of the term wasting bandwidth?

      Where do you suppose Morse was trained?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 12:22:20 AM
      No, you stated Morse was trained solely on humans, it's up to YOU go back this assertion up

      YOUR post 4241 (as it stands now just in case there are any deletions subsequent to this post)

      I do not care to 'back the assertion up'.  If it is wrong I am perfectly happy to concede that Morse was trained using dead pig ... which rather makes him second grade for work in the USA involving the FBI ... a country and an organisation which has ready and legal access to human remains for training purposes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 12:24:13 AM
      Where do you suppose Morse was trained?

      I don't "suppose" anything...I have read a BBC report dated Feb 2008 when Grime and his dogs were in the UK....that stated Morse was being trained...so he couldn't have been trained in human cadavers

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm

      ETA to add link!!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 12:26:16 AM
      I do not care to 'back the assertion up'.

      Then cease making assertions that you cannot back up, simples, and also cease to demand cites for others' assertions in case they say they don't care to back them up

       @)(++(*

      Goodnight, don't let the dogs bite!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 12:36:34 AM
      I don't "suppose" anything...I have read a BBC report dated Feb 2008 when Grime and his dogs were in the UK....that stated Morse was being trained...so he couldn't have been trained in human cadavers

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm

      ETA to add link!!

      Which says this (of relevance)

       He (Grime) is currently training two new dogs, Morse and Lewis.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 29, 2015, 12:49:42 AM
      I don't "suppose" anything...I have read a BBC report dated Feb 2008 when Grime and his dogs were in the UK....that stated Morse was being trained...so he couldn't have been trained in human cadavers

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm

      ETA to add link!!

      Maybe he was trained solely on scent pads & historic remains in the UK and on actual human remains when he went to the US with Grime during his full-time role with the FBI.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 12:53:55 AM
      I'd never (previously) heard of Lewis.

      I guess he didn't make the grade?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 12:56:57 AM
      Sorry, yes, the apartment was Harrison's recommendation, but not the villa.

      Is that what you mean?
      The application by the PJ to the judge for the villa search warrant stated as its justification the UK dog results of 1st Aug at the apartment.
      The application was obviously written by the PJ, however the following excerpt from MH's remit make it likely that he actively contributed to the decision to apply for the villa warrant
      "... consider further opportunities or areas for search ... as applicable to the latest intelligence ..."

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 12:59:40 AM
      Maybe he was trained solely on scent pads & historic remains in the UK and on actual human remains when he went to the US with Grime during his full-time role with the FBI.

      Shades of "Enhanced" victim recovery dog?

      One of those Detroit Free Press articles (there are several) describes Morse as one of only 7 dogs in the country (presumably the States) that does what Morse does.

      That might be about right for the Forensic Canine Program which was, I think, pretty exclusive.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 01:12:18 AM
      The application by the PJ to the judge for the villa search warrant stated as its justification the UK dog results of 1st Aug at the apartment.
      The application was obviously written by the PJ, however the following excerpt from MH's remit make it likely that he actively contributed to the decision to apply for the villa warrant
      "... consider further opportunities or areas for search ... as applicable to the latest intelligence ..."

      The apartment was Harrison's recommendation, but not the villa.

      Why would it be?

      Madeleine never lived there ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 01:24:37 AM
      Maybe he was trained solely on scent pads & historic remains in the UK and on actual human remains when he went to the US with Grime during his full-time role with the FBI.

      In the absence of a cite to the contrary we shall just have to accept that Morse was not the real deal but was trained using dead pig.

      However, of more relevance to Madeleine's case are the logs which record his training record and for which independent testimony was necessary in court.

      There were no independent training records available for Eddie who was not accredited by ACPO when in Praia da Luz 
      http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

      Morse was obviously a good dog ... but having read a little of the background to the case, it is evident that Lane had plenty of compelling evidence weighted against him.

      There was no evidence against the Drs McCann.


      **Snip
      The record simply does not support Lane's assertions that Grime and Stockham testified that the dogs were infallible. Rather, Stockham testified that the dogs' accuracy was in the high 90 percent range, and Grime specifically testified that he would not say that the dogs were perfect. The trial court also instructed the jury that it could not convict Lane solely on the basis of the cadaver dog evidence. - See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html#sthash.V0do5M0B.dpuf
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 29, 2015, 01:34:28 AM
      In the absence of a cite to the contrary we shall just have to accept that Morse was not the real deal but was trained using dead pig.

      However, of more relevance to Madeleine's case are the logs which record his training record and for which independent testimony was necessary in court.

      There were no independent training records available for Eddie who was not accredited by ACPO when in Praia da Luz 
      http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

      Morse was obviously a good dog ... but having read a little of the background to the case, it is evident that Lane had plenty of compelling evidence weighted against him.

      There was no evidence against the Drs McCann.


      **Snip
      The record simply does not support Lane's assertions that Grime and Stockham testified that the dogs were infallible. Rather, Stockham testified that the dogs' accuracy was in the high 90 percent range, and Grime specifically testified that he would not say that the dogs were perfect. The trial court also instructed the jury that it could not convict Lane solely on the basis of the cadaver dog evidence. - See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/mi-court-of-appeals/1683760.html#sthash.V0do5M0B.dpuf


      There may have been plenty of compelling circumstantial evidence against Lane, but Morse didn't alert to the sofa on which an unresponsive Bianca was seated prior to being placed in the vehicle. Morse did, however, alert to something non-specific in the bedroom she had been in prior to being placed on the sofa.
      No cross-contamination on any clothes Lane was wearing or any other articles. Sound familiar?
      http://law.justia.com/cases/michigan/court-of-appeals-published/2014/313818.html

      I do think Lane was guilty, though - but not because of the cadaver dog evidence.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 01:48:22 AM
      The apartment was Harrison's recommendation, but not the villa.

      Why would it be?

      Madeleine never lived there ....
      The villa search warrant dated 2nd Aug authorises the searching for, and removal for investigation, of items. And that is what the search team did. The relevance is that many of these items were at the apartment on evening 3rd May.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 01:51:13 AM

      There may have been plenty of compelling circumstantial evidence against Lane, but Morse didn't alert to the sofa on which an unresponsive Bianca was seated prior to being placed in the vehicle. Morse did, however, alert to something non-specific in the bedroom she had been in prior to being placed on the sofa.
      No cross-contamination on any clothes Lane was wearing or any other articles. Sound familiar?
      http://law.justia.com/cases/michigan/court-of-appeals-published/2014/313818.html

      I do think Lane was guilty, though - but not because of the cadaver dog evidence.

      I wouldn't have had any compunction about finding him guilty had I been sitting on that jury.

      I also am uneasy about the way dog alerts are beginning to be accepted more often in courts (USA and Scotland) almost as stand alone evidence.  Despite the caveats ... people will be taken in by them as more than just indications. 
      To be credible they have to be consistent.  I missed the sofa but wondered about the clothes ... so if her scent was detected in the bedroom it had to be on the sofa and on everything Lane touched and wore.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 02:01:35 AM
      The villa search warrant dated 2nd Aug authorises the searching for, and removal for investigation, of items. And that is what the search team did. The relevance is that many of these items were at the apartment on evening 3rd May.

      Search of the villa was mooted as far back as 23 July:

      The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07.
      It recommended considering re searching:
       
      - All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
      - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
      - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
      - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
      - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.


      Why would all accommodation exclude the villa, especially when a prior reference by Harrison (unmistakably his recommendation) mentions only the holiday apartments (occupied by the McCanns and the rest of the holidaying friends)?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 02:07:16 AM
      This was Harrison's specific recommendation:

      McCann's Apartment.

      The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
      opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
      Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
      Murat's House and Garden.


      His wording in respect of the villa is completely different: he makes plain that the decision is a collaborative process, rather than his recommendation.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 02:33:08 AM
      This was Harrison's specific recommendation:

      McCann's Apartment.

      The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
      opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
      Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
      Murat's House and Garden.


      His wording in respect of the villa is completely different: he makes plain that the decision is a collaborative process, rather than his recommendation.
      IMO it was the obvious thing to do, given the new intelligence gained on 1st Aug, to go to the villa and search for and examine items which had been at the apartment on 3 May. This can be compatible with various scenarios in which the parents are completely innocent. They were reportedly pleased that the search team went to the villa
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 02:36:39 AM
      IMO it was the obvious thing to do, given the new intelligence gained on 1st Aug, to go to the villa and search for and examine items which had been at the apartment on 3 May. This can be compatible with various scenarios in which the parents are completely innocent. They were reportedly pleased that the search team went to the villa

      Disagree.

      I don't see how examination of a place Madeleine never lived in or went near, ever, could have advanced the investigation.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 02:37:59 AM
      IMO it was the obvious thing to do, given the new intelligence gained on 1st Aug, to go to the villa and search for and examine items which had been at the apartment on 3 May. This can be compatible with various scenarios in which the parents are completely innocent. They were reportedly pleased that the search team went to the villa

      If they were pleased it was because they thought some progress might be made in finding Madeleine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 02:45:11 AM
      Harrison made plain what he thought of the inspections at villa and gym by dismissing them as PJ exercises.

      He did, at least, acknowledge that Grime and his dogs were involved in the inspections of the holiday apartments, which he recommended.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 02:56:58 AM
      I will bid you all a very good night (or early morning) 

      Hmmmmm!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 03:04:28 AM
      Disagree.

      I don't see how examination of a place Madeleine never lived in or went near, ever, could have advanced the investigation.
      But they were not looking for the missing child there.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 07:09:11 AM
      Morse gets a fleeting reference in Grime's PdL profile as (then) a pup.

      And here is an article from the Detroit Free Press and the Bianca Jones case:

      ugust 24, 2012
      The Detroit News
      Christine Ferretti

      Detroit — A canine expert whose dog allegedly detected a cadaver scent in the home of a missing toddler will be allowed to testify at the murder trial of the girl's father, a judge ruled Friday.

      Wayne County Circuit Judge Vonda R. Evans made the ruling after attorneys for D'Andre Lane spent more than two hours trying to discredit the relatively new scientific method. Lane is charged with first-degree murder and child abuse in the death of his 2-year-old daughter, Bianca Jones

      "I believe the evidence offered is sufficient to go forward. The people should be allowed to demonstrate to a jury that your client was implicated in this particular murder," Evans told the defense. "I think your argument is to weight as opposed to admissibility."

      The court Friday also denied a defense motion to halt proceedings in the case while the state Court of Appeals evaluates efforts by Lane's attorneys to have the case tossed out. The attorneys said they also plan to appeal Friday's ruling.

      Two forensic canine experts testified Friday before Evans ruled to admit at trial the potential evidence, which is key for prosecutors in the case against Lane.

      Danian Woodson, an attorney for Lane, tried to argue against the cadaver dog evidence. But Evans cut her off and denied the motion.

      After the hearing, Woodson said the alleged evidence is "not admissible, not relevant, highly prejudicial and should be excluded."

      Lane has claimed Bianca was in the back seat of his 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis on the morning of Dec. 2 when he was approached by armed carjackers near Brush Street and Grand River.

      The vehicle was found shortly after, but the child was not inside. Her body has not been found.

      Forensic canine expert Martin Grime testified Friday and at Lane's prior preliminary examination that he brought in his victim recovery dog, Morse, two days after the girl went missing. He said the dog detected a cadaver scent inside Lane's car, on the child's blanket and car seat, and in the girl's bedroom and Lane's home.

      Grime said the dogs detect only the generic scent of human decomposition. The dogs, he said, cannot determine identity, age, race, gender or the rate of decomposition.

      Grime testified in court Friday that Morse has never had a false positive response, and that testing done just prior and after the dog worked in the Jones case was successful.

      "I believe that the testimony, his conclusion is based on principles and methods that have been in place for several years," Evans said of Grime.

      Also Friday, Rex A. Stockham, a special agent for the FBI who oversees its forensic canine program, said the agency has been studying the science for about a decade.

      The FBI began testing contract and volunteer teams for the human scent detection program in 2008, Stockham said. The agency has three full-time dogs working in the country.

      The dogs are tested annually to ensure they meet best practices standards. Morse has only been tested one time, Stockham said.


      Prosecutors allege Lane beat the toddler to death with an 18-inch stick with a towel wrapped in duct tape at the end over a potty training incident.

      Lane's attorney, Terry Johnson, contends Lane did "spank" the child with the stick, but that there was no evidence of child abuse or murder since the girl's whereabouts is unknown.

      Lane told Detroit Police he left his home around 7:45 a.m. Dec. 2. He dropped his nephew and 8-year-old daughter off before visiting a gas station, Wayne County Community College in Detroit and, with a friend, near the Greyhound bus station on Howard Street. The carjacking, Lane claimed, occurred just afterward, with only him and Bianca in the vehicle.

      FBI agent Christopher Hess testified at Lane's preliminary examination that the defendant was unable to explain where he was for a 45-minute window around the time his daughter disappeared.

      Lane's girlfriend, Anjali Lyons, has testified she awoke Dec. 2 to Bianca's screams as Lane used the stick to beat the toddler for urinating in bed. Later the same morning, Lane carried a silent Bianca to his car. She was covered with an animal print blanket.

      Lane's trial is slated for Sept. 18.


      so is Grime saying that Morse did detect cadaver scent or is it just poor reporting in this case
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 07:59:36 AM
      But they were not looking for the missing child there.

      If they were looking for anything at all, they would have been looking for a cadaver scent, but remember, uncorroborated dog alerts are not admissible as evidence in court.

      So what would have been the point?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:02:36 AM
      so is Grime saying that Morse did detect cadaver scent or is it just poor reporting in this case

      No, that's not poor reporting. 

      The uncorroborated alert of Morse was accepted as evidence of death, that was the whole point of the controversy in the Bianca Jones case.

      That is not standard US procedure; rather, one adopted by the US forensic canine program, by dogs, I believe, desensitised to the scent of blood.

      ETA: the other safeguard in that case was that the car seat was taken out of D'Lanes car, wrapped in brown paper and hidden in offices for Morse to sniff out a second time, which he did.

      D'Lanes clothes were similarly treated, but NOT found by Morse.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 29, 2015, 08:06:36 AM
      In a nutshell, the handler of a dog trained to alert to the scent of dead bodies says that the dog alerted in places in 5a and a dog trained to alert to the scent of blood did not alert in the same place.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:19:43 AM
      I wouldn't have had any compunction about finding him guilty had I been sitting on that jury.

      I also am uneasy about the way dog alerts are beginning to be accepted more often in courts (USA and Scotland) almost as stand alone evidence.  Despite the caveats ... people will be taken in by them as more than just indications. 
      To be credible they have to be consistent.  I missed the sofa but wondered about the clothes ... so if her scent was detected in the bedroom it had to be on the sofa and on everything Lane touched and wore.

      I Scotland (I think) uncorroborated dog alerts are accepted as evidence, but not as stand-alone evidence.

      There must be other, corroborating, evidence, rather like DNA.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:22:44 AM
      In a nutshell, the handler of a dog trained to alert to the scent of dead bodies says that the dog alerted in places in 5a and a dog trained to alert to the scent of blood did not alert in the same place.

      Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are NOT acceptable as evidence in English courts.

      And I'm pretty sure the alerts in the (first) PdL investigation would have been rejected in a Scottish court as well because (among other reasons) of wholesale disregard of the principle of cross-contamination.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:28:51 AM
      They [the dogs] may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
      examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.


      (Mark Harrison)

      Intelligence is not acceptable as evidence in court.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 29, 2015, 08:36:57 AM
      Uncorroborated cadaver-dog alerts are NOT acceptable as evidence in English courts.

      And I'm pretty sure the alerts in the (first) PdL investigation would have been rejected in a Scottish court as well because (among other reasons) of wholesale disregard of the principle of cross-contamination.

      I didn't say they did. If you think my statement was incorrect, please point out where?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:40:48 AM
      I didn't say they did. If you think my statement was incorrect, please point out where?

      Eddie's alerts were inherently unreliable in PdL.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 29, 2015, 08:43:32 AM
      Eddie's alerts were inherently unreliable in PdL.

      Fine so my statement was correct.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:46:12 AM
      Fine so my statement was correct.

      Your statement is irrelevant. 

      The dogs were poorly handled and their alerts meaningless.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 29, 2015, 08:49:38 AM
      Your statement is irrelevant. 

      The dogs were poorly handled and their alerts meaningless.
      ?{)(**
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2015, 09:00:34 AM
      Your statement is irrelevant. 

      The dogs were poorly handled and their alerts meaningless.

      How many years experience have you as a dog handler ferryman ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:05:27 AM
      How many years experience have you as a dog handler ferryman ?

      How many years' experience have you had?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 09:05:42 AM
      How many years experience have you as a dog handler ferryman ?

      His experience comes down to googling, as he admitted himself.

      So perhaps he should google up on cardiac surgery.

      I'm sure that will qualify him for surgical procedures 8(*(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 09:06:30 AM
      How many years' experience have you had?

      Try answering the question before you pose one.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 09:08:01 AM
      yes I can...you never learn do you

      You never have backed up any of your personal claims.

      They remain pure fiction.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:11:42 AM
      However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

      (Mark Harrison)

      He went on to state that if death has occurred, he thought it most likely that Madeleine's remains had been jettisoned into the sea.

      Note the crucial if.

      How many years' experience has Harrison had?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2015, 09:15:47 AM
      How many years' experience have you had?

      None. That's why I leave it to the experts.

      So how many ferryman ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:17:51 AM
      None. That's why I leave it to the experts.

      In which case you will pay particular heed to the words of Mark Harrison which I quote above.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2015, 09:18:44 AM
      In which case you will pay particular heed to the words of Mark Harrison which I quote above.

      Just answer the question ferryman.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 29, 2015, 09:27:36 AM
      However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

      (Mark Harrison)

      He went on to state that if death has occurred, he thought it most likely that Madeleine's remains had been jettisoned into the sea.

      Note the crucial if.

      How many years' experience has Harrison had?

      Still nothing about my statement then.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:30:31 AM
      The dogs' alerts were unreliable.

      Eddie could apparently "find" a scent on clothing in the gym he could find no trace of in the villa.

      He could "find" a scent on cuddle-cat after it was hidden in a cupboard he could find no trace of while he could play with it.

      And so on ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 09:40:44 AM
      The dogs' alerts were unreliable.

      Eddie could apparently "find" a scent on clothing in the gym he could find no trace of in the villa.

      He could "find" a scent on cuddle-cat after it was hidden in a cupboard he could find no trace of while he could play with it.

      And so on ...



      Of what value is your opinion, when you are totally biased in favour of the mccanns ?

      and try answering Faithlilly's question, which I have asked you many times before with no response on your behalf.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:44:17 AM


      Of what value is your opinion, when you are totally biased in favour of the mccanns ?

      and try answering Faithlilly's question, which I have asked you many times before with no response on your behalf.

      Change the record.

      If you read Harrsons' reports carefully, you will find they are his opinions, too.

      Perhaps he knows a thing or two ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 09:53:56 AM
      Change the record.

      If you read Harrsons' reports carefully, you will find they are his opinions, too.

      Perhaps he knows a thing or two ....

      No need to change the record.

      The dogs made indications.  FACT.

      They are trained to respond to a group of compounds. FACT.

      The forensic analysis was inconclusive, and did not show any pig residiue.

      Madeleine disappeared without a trace.  FACT.

      There is nothing else in this case which has come to light as possible evidence revealing her fate, other than supposition.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 10:00:06 AM
      I Scotland (I think) uncorroborated dog alerts are accepted as evidence, but not as stand-alone evidence.

      There must be other, corroborating, evidence, rather like DNA.

      Agreed.
      As far as I know it has only happened once in Scottish courts ... but in my opinion based on press and news reports of the day's proceedings in court the evidence presented against the accused was compelling enough without the dog's indications being taken into account.
      How much weight was given to it by the jury in their deliberations is anyone's guess.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2015, 10:12:13 AM
      Change the record.

      If you read Harrsons' reports carefully, you will find they are his opinions, too.

      Perhaps he knows a thing or two ....

      So is it Harrison's opinion that the dogs were misdirected because if not then the question is still relevant.

      So ferryman how many years have you been a dog handler ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 29, 2015, 10:18:17 AM

      Can we please stop asking silly questions.  This is a Forum, and open for debate.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 10:21:23 AM
      So is it Harrison's opinion that the dogs were misdirected because if not then the question is still relevant.

      So ferryman how many years have you been a dog handler ?

      Probably as many as you.

      But I am quite content to take Harrison's word that no incriminating inference can be drawn from the reactions of the dogs.

      And I'm perfectly happy to draw the only, obvious, inference from the fact that Harrison declined to own the input of Grime and his dogs into searches he had nothing to do with; the places or things (vehicles!) Madeleine never lived in or went near.

      It's all in the record.

      As is Eddie's "failure" (if that is the right word; it probably isn't) to find scent on clothing in the villa he could, apparently, "find" in the gym (on re-testing).

      And if a dog trampling all over stuff it is tasked to inspect, as well as picking up stuff up in its mouth, is top-notch canine deployment, then I am the Queen of Sheba ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 10:23:01 AM


      Of what value is your opinion, when you are totally biased in favour of the mccanns ?

      and try answering Faithlilly's question, which I have asked you many times before with no response on your behalf.

      Hmmm ... so it appears you and others are of the opinion that if one is a layperson one should not question an 'expert' in his or her particular discipline or pass an opinion.

      Have I got that right? 
      Bearing in mind that juries sitting in judgement are made up of a variety of lay people tasked with making life changing decisions who are in deep trouble if the judge finds out they have used search engines to inform themselves.  Lay posters on a forum can at least check out the opinions of a variety of experts to help themselves to be better informed.

      I think that fact may be the problem you and others may have with lay people versus professional ... that the information is out there to allow the lay person an informed opinion.

      In the field of dog training where even science does not know quite what goes on in the nose and the brain of dogs we can access the ongoing studies ... and believe it or not ... work things out for ourselves.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 10:26:49 AM
      Hmmm ... so it appears you and others are of the opinion that if one is a layperson one should not question an 'expert' in his or her particular discipline or pass an opinion.

      Have I got that right? 
      Bearing in mind that juries sitting in judgement are made up of a variety of lay people tasked with making life changing decisions who are in deep trouble if the judge finds out they have used search engines to inform themselves.  Lay posters on a forum can at least check out the opinions of a variety of experts to help themselves to be better informed.

      I think that fact may be the problem you and others may have with lay people versus professional ... that the information is out there to allow the lay person an informed opinion.

      In the field of dog training where even science does not know quite what goes on in the nose and the brain of dogs we can access the ongoing studies ... and believe it or not ... work things out for ourselves.

      Everyone can have an opinion, but ferryman posts as those his are absolute facts.

      It also has to be viewed in terms of his personal bias.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 10:27:44 AM
      Hmmm ... so it appears you and others are of the opinion that if one is a layperson one should not question an 'expert' in his or her particular discipline or pass an opinion.

      Have I got that right? 
      Bearing in mind that juries sitting in judgement are made up of a variety of lay people tasked with making life changing decisions who are in deep trouble if the judge finds out they have used search engines to inform themselves.  Lay posters on a forum can at least check out the opinions of a variety of experts to help themselves to be better informed.

      I think that fact may be the problem you and others may have with lay people versus professional ... that the information is out there to allow the lay person an informed opinion.

      In the field of dog training where even science does not know quite what goes on in the nose and the brain of dogs we can access the ongoing studies ... and believe it or not ... work things out for ourselves.

      good post ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 29, 2015, 10:29:56 AM
      Everyone can have an opinion, but ferryman posts as those his are absolute facts.

      It also has to be viewed in terms of his personal bias.

      As do yours.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 10:34:26 AM
      As do yours.

      We all have our views on this case, for whatever reason we are on this forum for.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 29, 2015, 10:58:57 AM
      We all have our views on this case, for whatever reason we are on this forum for.

      Of course we do.  And so we should, within reason.  Just try to stay On Topic.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 11:11:11 AM
      In a nutshell, the handler of a dog trained to alert to the scent of dead bodies says that the dog alerted in places in 5a and a dog trained to alert to the scent of blood did not alert in the same place.
      no...the dog trained to alert to dead bodies and blood alerted.....the handler was asked whether he could confirm this was to cadaver scent and he does not confirm
      The dog that was trained to alert repeatedly did not alert to objects before being brought back several times and eventually alerted...

      the handler stated these alerts had no evidential reliablity..it is clear why
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 11:12:45 AM


      Of what value is your opinion, when you are totally biased in favour of the mccanns ?

      and try answering Faithlilly's question, which I have asked you many times before with no response on your behalf.

      it is Grime's and Harrison's opinion that the alerts are unreliable
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 11:15:06 AM
      You never have backed up any of your personal claims.

      They remain pure fiction.

      you stated I could not back up my claims...you are wrong as I can...you repeatedly make the same mistake and you repeatedly disrupt threads by making personal attacks on me
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 11:15:32 AM
      it is Grime's and Harrison's opinion that the alerts are unreliable

      When did either say a dead body could not have been  detected ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 11:30:08 AM
      When did either say a dead body could not have been  detected ?

      we all accept the dogs could have been alerting to remnant cadaver scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 11:33:34 AM
      How many years experience have you as a dog handler ferryman ?

      it is not neccesary to have experience of a dog handler to criticise Grime or the alerts....it is quite acceptable these days to question a professional ...it happens all the time and quite often professionals make mistakes.
      Ashya King's parents used google to question the doctors during their son's care
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 11:44:23 AM
      Everyone can have an opinion, but ferryman posts as those his are absolute facts.

      It also has to be viewed in terms of his personal bias.

      From what I have seen of Ferryman's posts everything without exception which is stated as fact is backed up with a cite proving just that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 11:48:41 AM
      From what I have seen of Ferryman's posts everything without exception which is stated as fact is backed up with a cite proving just that.

      From what you have seen, i.e. those that support your position.

      So perhaps you can tell me this, where does Martin Grime state the alerts could not have indicated the presence of a body ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 11:50:43 AM
      From what you have seen, i.e. those that support your position.

      So perhaps you can tell me this, where does Martin Grime state the alerts could not have indicated the presence of a body ?

      I answered this question at 11.15 today
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 11:53:14 AM
      I answered this question at 11.15 today

      No you didn't.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 11:55:13 AM
      I answered this question at 11.15 today

      The handler clearly knows that the dogs are not an exact science and do not necessarily get it right 100% of the time either in training or in the field.
      I think that is evident from reading his statements, and that of Harrison.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 12:02:33 PM
      The handler clearly knows that the dogs are not an exact science and do not necessarily get it right 100% of the time either in training or in the field.
      I think that is evident from reading his statements, and that of Harrison.

      What is the % success rate of locating bodies when Martin Grime utilized Eddie and Keela ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 12:07:26 PM
      What is the % success rate of locating bodies when Martin Grime utilized Eddie and Keela ?

      you make the mistake at looking at figures such as these and relating them directly to remnant scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 29, 2015, 12:09:25 PM
      The thing is,  other professionals who have trained cadaver dogs,   some from forensic police training have said that these dogs can give false alerts to decaying vegetation.

      Grime says Eddie was an 'enhanced' victim recovery dog,   yet the only training Eddie had to become this 'Enhanced dog'   was through going to America and being trained to alert to the decaying human bodies,   which Grime says smells the same as the decaying pig Eddie was trained on at first,   in fact he goes on to say that it was impossible for the dogs to tell the difference between the two and it was impossible to train the dogs to tell the difference between the two.

      Now we are to think that Eddie is a super dog better than any other cadaver dog that has been trained in Britain because he had training in America too,   even though it really means nothing.

      People who have forensic knowledge of what these dog will or will not alert to have said that an alert by a cadaver dog when there is no body to be found needs to be taken with caution as the dog may be alerting to the scent of something such as a bloody rag or a sanitary pad that could have been in the place where the dog is alerting.

      Eddie alerts to blood,   there is no doubt in my mind that Eddie alerted to blood on the key fob as Keela alerted to it too.

      Therefore Eddie could well have been alerting to something that had had blood on it in the bedroom,  and was not there any more but the scent remained,    or from something that could have been walked in from the garden and had settled in the grout of the tiles,   or the scent could have gathered in the bedroom from the garden.

      So the alert in the bedroom can only be taken with a pinch of salt in my opinion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 12:11:20 PM
      you make the mistake at looking at figures such as these and relating the directly to remnant scent

      No, I'm asking a direct and pertinent question.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 12:13:59 PM
      The thing is,  other professionals who have trained cadaver dogs,   some from forensic police training have said that these dogs can give false alerts to decaying vegetation.

      Grime says Eddie was an 'enhanced' victim recovery dog,   yet the only training Eddie had to become this 'Enhanced dog'   was through going to America and being trained to alert to the decaying human bodies,   which Grime says smells the same as the decaying pig Eddie was trained on at first,   in fact he goes on to say that it was impossible for the dogs to tell the difference between the two and it was impossible to train the dogs to tell the difference between the two.

      Now we are to think that Eddie is a super dog better than any other cadaver dog that has been trained in Britain because he had training in America too,   even though it really means nothing.

      People who have forensic knowledge of what these dog will or will not alert to have said that an alert by a cadaver dog when there is no body to be found needs to be taken with caution as the dog may be alerting to the scent of something such as a bloody rag or a sanitary pad that could have been in the place where the dog is alerting.

      Eddie alerts to blood,   there is no doubt in my mind that Eddie alerted to blood on the key fob as Keela alerted to it too.

      Therefore Eddie could well have been alerting to something that had had blood on it in the bedroom,  and was not there any more but the scent remained,    or from something that could have been walked in from the garden and had settled in the grout of the tiles,   or the scent could have gathered in the bedroom from the garden.

      So the alert in the bedroom can only be taken with a pinch of salt in my opinion.

      no evidential value or reliability is quite a bold statement....it is the sort of statement a defense counsel would use yet Grime has already made it....no wonder the alerts are not admissable
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 29, 2015, 12:16:12 PM
      In a nutshell, the handler of a dog trained to alert to the scent of dead bodies says that the dog alerted in places in 5a and a dog trained to alert to the scent of blood did not alert in the same place.

      A handler with many years experience in training and handling dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 12:18:07 PM
      A handler with many years experience in training and handling dogs.

      how many years experience did Shipman have...I'm not comparing the two but you do not understand that we have the right to question professionals and sometimes those professionals are wrong. Surely you understand that.


      and of course he says teh alerts have no evidentail reliability
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 12:29:36 PM
      What is the % success rate of locating bodies when Martin Grime utilized Eddie and Keela ?

      That is unquantifiable since we have no details of all the cases worked and whether human remains were found as a result or not.

      However, I believe that Arlene Arkinson's remains have not been found and that many of the victims of the troubles remain to be found ... I'm certain though that had Eddie found any ... we would have heard about it.

      So on balance ... I would say very few ... and we appear to have the details of those.


      Yorkshire's dogged detectives

      24 April 2004
      Yorkshire Post
      Kate O'Hara

      TWO Yorkshire dogs are helping police in Northern Ireland to tackle a 25-year backlog of murders which built up when the force had to focus so heavily on combatting sectarian violence.  The specialist South Yorkshire Police sniffers and their handlers are being called on to mop up more than 150 missing-person and murder cases.

      And PCs Martin Grime and John Ellis and their dogs, Eddie and Frankie, have already recorded a success in the first of their grisly investigations. Last week they found the body of pensioner Attracta Harron in Ulster. A 21-year-old student had been charged with her murder, but detectives had failed to find her body until the Yorkshire team joined the search.

      The South Yorkshire officers and their dogs have also been called in to help with the hunt for the body of Arlene Arkinson, who disappeared nearly a decade ago, aged 15, on her way home to Co Tyrone, from a disco.

      PCs Ellis and Grime and their dogs are due to return to Northern Ireland shortly to continue their search.

      http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.co.uk/2004/04/yorkshires-dogged-detectives.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2015, 12:33:02 PM
      Hmmm ... so it appears you and others are of the opinion that if one is a layperson one should not question an 'expert' in his or her particular discipline or pass an opinion.

      Have I got that right? 
      Bearing in mind that juries sitting in judgement are made up of a variety of lay people tasked with making life changing decisions who are in deep trouble if the judge finds out they have used search engines to inform themselves.  Lay posters on a forum can at least check out the opinions of a variety of experts to help themselves to be better informed.

      I think that fact may be the problem you and others may have with lay people versus professional ... that the information is out there to allow the lay person an informed opinion.

      In the field of dog training where even science does not know quite what goes on in the nose and the brain of dogs we can access the ongoing studies ... and believe it or not ... work things out for ourselves.

      Say I am a structural engineer designing a simple structure; a topic of which you have no knowledge.
      You ask me how I go about it and I am happy to explain. You then tell me one of the sections is too small "in your opinion". What is your opinion worth under those circumstances, having about 60 minutes previously not known gee from haw on the subject? Ask searching questions yes, but presumption on the basis of being able to use Google is a bit fatuous.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Miss Taken Identity on August 29, 2015, 12:35:43 PM
      how many years experience did Shipman have...I'm not comparing the two but you do not understand that we have the right to question professionals and sometimes those professionals are wrong. Surely you understand that.


      and of course he says teh alerts have no evidentail reliability

      In Bold.. yeah we hear you Davel loud and clear.  Some of us here are questioning medical professionals, much to the annoyance of others, shocking eh?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 29, 2015, 12:36:37 PM
      A handler with many years experience in training and handling dogs.

      Yes,   but other professionals in the field have said a cadaver dog could alert to the smell of blood EVEN IF THE BLOOD IS NOT THERE ANYMORE just the scent of it.    Keela would not alert to that as she is trained to alert to blood that is there.

      Eddie could have been alerting to the scent from the garden in the bedroom,   or from something that had been on the floor that had had blood on it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 12:37:29 PM
      Say I am a structural engineer designing a simple structure; a topic of which you have no knowledge.
      You ask me how I go about it and I am happy to explain. You then tell me one of the sections is too small "in your opinion". What is your opinion worth under those circumstances, having about 60 minutes previously not known gee from haw on the subject? Ask searching questions yes, but presumption on the basis of being able to use Google is a bit fatuous.

      a

      depends how intelligent you are. Are you suggesting we should never question proffesionals...that is clearly wrong...

      professionals get things wrong. Ashya Kings father used google to decide on his son's lifesaving traetment and used the knowledge gained to overule the professionals
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 29, 2015, 12:43:28 PM
      Yes,   but other professionals in the field have said a cadaver dog could alert to the smell of blood EVEN IF THE BLOOD IS NOT THERE ANYMORE just the scent of it.    Keela would not alert to that as she is trained to alert to blood that is there.

      Eddie could have been alerting to the scent from the garden in the bedroom,   or from something that had been on the floor that had had blood on it.
      Kate is a woman.  She will have the normal womanly appearances of blood.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 12:47:01 PM
      In Bold.. yeah we hear you Davel loud and clear.  Some of us here are questioning medical professionals, much to the annoyance of others, shocking eh?

      so we are at liberty to question Grime....thanks
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 12:48:45 PM
      Say I am a structural engineer designing a simple structure; a topic of which you have no knowledge.
      You ask me how I go about it and I am happy to explain. You then tell me one of the sections is too small "in your opinion". What is your opinion worth under those circumstances, having about 60 minutes previously not known gee from haw on the subject? Ask searching questions yes, but presumption on the basis of being able to use Google is a bit fatuous.

      It is not opinion, but fact, that dogs attending a crime-scene and picking stuff up in their mouths and trampling all over stuff they are tasked to inspect is rank bad practise.

      It is not opinion, but fact, that inspecting clothing in common circulation as clothing is for fully 3 months after the crime was never going to yield clues about what happened to Madeleine.  Especially twice.

      It is not opinion, but fact, that inspection in places Madeleine never lived in or went near was never going to reveal clues about what happened to her (and didn't!)

      It is not opinion but fact (confirmed by Grime in his rogatory interview) that cross-contamination of a death scent is immediate. 

      So while packing stuff into cardboard boxes for transportation would (ordinarily) be bad practise, in this instance, it didn't matter, because cross-contamination would long ago already have occurred.

      The whole thing was a pile of crock.

      Harrison went as far as he dared in his reports in indicating that ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 01:03:35 PM
      Say I am a structural engineer designing a simple structure; a topic of which you have no knowledge.
      You ask me how I go about it and I am happy to explain. You then tell me one of the sections is too small "in your opinion". What is your opinion worth under those circumstances, having about 60 minutes previously not known gee from haw on the subject? Ask searching questions yes, but presumption on the basis of being able to use Google is a bit fatuous.

      Is there any particular reason why you are a member of a discussion forum if you think it inappropriate to discuss anything in which an honours degree or professional qualification is not held.

      Rather limiting and contradictory I would have thought.

      Might I respectfully indicate that there are many many places where dogs don't lie and many discussions regarding the findings of the dogs take place on a daily basis, never straying from the script ... you may find those more to your liking.
      On this forum members have opinions which are voiced, perhaps changed by discussion, perhaps modified by information and cites provided or maybe even reinforced.  But an exchange of ideas and thinking does go on ... why would anyone wish to curb that?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 01:47:02 PM
      It is not opinion, but fact, that dogs attending a crime-scene and picking stuff up in their mouths and trampling all over stuff they are tasked to inspect is rank bad practise.

      It is not opinion, but fact, that inspecting clothing in common circulation as clothing is for fully 3 months after the crime was never going to yield clues about what happened to Madeleine.  Especially twice.

      It is not opinion, but fact, that inspection in places Madeleine never lived in or went near was never going to reveal clues about what happened to her (and didn't!)

      It is not opinion but fact (confirmed by Grime in his rogatory interview) that cross-contamination of a death scent is immediate. 

      So while packing stuff into cardboard boxes for transportation would (ordinarily) be bad practise, in this instance, it didn't matter, because cross-contamination would long ago already have occurred.

      The whole thing was a pile of crock.

      Harrison went as far as he dared in his reports in indicating that ....
      In reply to "It is not opinion, but fact, that inspection in places Madeleine never lived in or went near was never going to reveal clues about what happened to her (and didn't!)"

      If I mysteriously disappear one night, and later police go to relatives and ask if they can have for testing some of the clothing that had been in my flat on the night I disappeared, are you suggesting the relatives should say no?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 02:07:47 PM
      In reply to "It is not opinion, but fact, that inspection in places Madeleine never lived in or went near was never going to reveal clues about what happened to her (and didn't!)"

      If I mysteriously disappear one night, and later police go to relatives and ask if they can have for testing some of the clothing that had been in my flat on the night I disappeared, are you suggesting the relatives should say no?

      If you are apart from the clothing they want to test, why would they want your clothing?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 02:29:04 PM
      If you are apart from the clothing they want to test, why would they want your clothing?

      Because clothing that doesn't even belong to me (flatmates clothing for example) and that was not even being worn by anyone on the night I disappeared (for example clothing just laying around in the flat that night) can maybe provide further intelligence.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 02:45:02 PM
      Because clothing that doesn't even belong to me (flatmates clothing for example) and that was not even being worn by anyone on the night I disappeared (for example clothing just laying around in the flat that night) can maybe provide further intelligence.

      Without the potential for imparting information that might have been gleaned from Madeleine's bedding, her soft toy and blanket had they been immediately isolated and professionally packed to be checked for traces in a forensic laboratory.

      Checking clothing many months after the event was an irrelevance at best. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 03:07:51 PM
      Without the potential for imparting information that might have been gleaned from Madeleine's bedding, her soft toy and blanket had they been immediately isolated and professionally packed to be checked for traces in a forensic laboratory.

      Checking clothing many months after the event was an irrelevance at best.
      But there are other cases where police have gone to a place which the missing person had never lived in, and which on the date of disappearance had no connection to the case (because it was moved to months later), and yet police obtain information there to help solve what happened to the missing person.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2015, 03:08:28 PM
      a

      depends how intelligent you are. Are you suggesting we should never question proffesionals...that is clearly wrong...

      professionals get things wrong. Ashya Kings father used google to decide on his son's lifesaving traetment and used the knowledge gained to overule the professionals

      So you keep saying.
      But as is typical you have failed to address the specific issue as I put it in my post.
      Do you think after 60 minutes rough guide you would be in a position to competently decide a section of a structure was too small?. That was the issue I raised NOT Ashya Kings father Googling how many treatments there were.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 03:14:55 PM
      So you keep saying.
      But as is typical you have failed to address the specific issue as I put it in my post.
      Do you think after 60 minutes rough guide you would be in a position to competently decide a section of a structure was too small?. That was the issue I raised NOT Ashya Kings father Googling how many treatments there were.

      Ashya King's father was the specific issue I raised in my post and you have not addressed that. In what way is your specific issue relevant to the thread ..it isn't...what is relevant is the principle of questioning professionals. If you want specific issues re the construction industry answered might I suggest you start a new board...never mind a new thread as this one concerns the McCann case
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 29, 2015, 03:15:47 PM
      So you keep saying.
      But as is typical you have failed to address the specific issue as I put it in my post.
      Do you think after 60 minutes rough guide you would be in a position to competently decide a section of a structure was too small?. That was the issue I raised NOT Ashya Kings father Googling how many treatments there were.
      Of course you should be able to question

      I have just been to a dermatology specialist with three skin problems ... and she two out of three wrong
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2015, 03:25:40 PM

      Ashya King's father was the specific issue I raised in my post and you have not addressed that. In what way is your specific issue relevant to the thread ..it isn't...what is relevant is the principle of questioning professionals. If you want specific issues re the construction industry answered might I suggest you start a new board...never mind a new thread as this one concerns the McCann case

      You answered a post I addressed to Brietta. You introduced Ashya King who seems to have little to do with the McCann case.
      You seem to have copped out as per usual.
      What you and Sadie seem to have done with your examples is to indicate the medical profession aren't much cop if one can keep catching them out by Googling.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 03:26:26 PM
      Without the potential for imparting information that might have been gleaned from Madeleine's bedding, her soft toy and blanket had they been immediately isolated and professionally packed to be checked for traces in a forensic laboratory.

      Checking clothing many months after the event was an irrelevance at best.
      Given the new intelligence obtained on 1st Aug, it became a top priority to apply the same canine resources to items which had been in the apartment in evening 3 May. If Amaral hadn't done so, all the anti Amaral people would now be jumping up and down claiming he was incompetent to not follow up on the NPIA's advice. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 03:54:04 PM
      It's "long sleeves".
      Not "long sleeves but might have been short".
      Not "long, medium or short sleeves, whatever fits your theory best"
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 29, 2015, 04:48:20 PM
      no...the dog trained to alert to dead bodies and blood alerted.....the handler was asked whether he could confirm this was to cadaver scent and he does not confirm
      The dog that was trained to alert repeatedly did not alert to objects before being brought back several times and eventually alerted...

      the handler stated these alerts had no evidential reliablity..it is clear why

      So my statement was correct.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 04:53:08 PM
      But there are other cases where police have gone to a place which the missing person had never lived in, and which on the date of disappearance had no connection to the case (because it was moved to months later), and yet police obtain information there to help solve what happened to the missing person.

      That most certainly was not the case here.  Any information arising from using the dogs was directed immediately and pejoratively towards the Drs McCann.  In my opinion the opportunity to concentrate on solving Madeleine's case was passed over in the haste to implicate in particular Dr Kate McCann in her disappearance. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 05:06:49 PM
      You answered a post I addressed to Brietta. You introduced Ashya King who seems to have little to do with the McCann case.
      You seem to have copped out as per usual.
      What you and Sadie seem to have done with your examples is to indicate the medical profession aren't much cop if one can keep catching them out by Googling.

      Why does a surgeon discuss options and give a patient different choices for procedures ... s/he is the expert who knows the best course to take ... yet s/he trusts a layperson who has been given appropriate information to make the decision?  If you choose to do nothing at all - that will be your informed choice - and the surgeon, the expert, will go with whatever you, the layperson, chooses to do.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 05:09:45 PM
      But there are other cases where police have gone to a place which the missing person had never lived in, and which on the date of disappearance had no connection to the case (because it was moved to months later), and yet police obtain information there to help solve what happened to the missing person.

      Madeleine never lived in the villa and certainly never lived in the gym.

      Both inspections were irrelevant, which is why Harrison dismissed them both as PJ exercises.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 29, 2015, 05:20:10 PM
      You answered a post I addressed to Brietta. You introduced Ashya King who seems to have little to do with the McCann case.
      You seem to have copped out as per usual.
      What you and Sadie seem to have done with your examples is to indicate the medical profession aren't much cop if one can keep catching them out by Googling.
      But first you introduced structural engineering which has nothing to do with the McCann case.   @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 05:36:06 PM
      You answered a post I addressed to Brietta. You introduced Ashya King who seems to have little to do with the McCann case.
      You seem to have copped out as per usual.
      What you and Sadie seem to have done with your examples is to indicate the medical profession aren't much cop if one can keep catching them out by Googling.

      you must have led a very sheltered life if you think professional negligence is limited to the medical profession. I just knew I would get a much better response as there is so much "doctor hate" on this board. Are you under the illusion that all professionals never make mistakes ...add solicitors, accountants, pharmacists, dentists, opticians,teachers  etc etc. The relevance to tHE mccann case which seem to eluding you is tHAt we are quite justified in criticising Grime....it's like pulling teeth.....no...more like having teeth pulled
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 05:38:37 PM
      You answered a post I addressed to Brietta. You introduced Ashya King who seems to have little to do with the McCann case.
      You seem to have copped out as per usual.
      What you and Sadie seem to have done with your examples is to indicate the medical profession aren't much cop if one can keep catching them out by Googling.

      In future could you mark the post...FAO Brietta and only Brietta...or to be on the safe side just send your post as a private message
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 05:40:10 PM
      That most certainly was not the case here.  Any information arising from using the dogs was directed immediately and pejoratively towards the Drs McCann.  In my opinion the opportunity to concentrate on solving Madeleine's case was passed over in the haste to implicate in particular Dr Kate McCann in her disappearance.
      But that's ridiculous because any unknown perp could have caused the clothes alerts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 05:42:00 PM
      Say I am a structural engineer designing a simple structure; a topic of which you have no knowledge.
      You ask me how I go about it and I am happy to explain. You then tell me one of the sections is too small "in your opinion". What is your opinion worth under those circumstances, having about 60 minutes previously not known gee from haw on the subject? Ask searching questions yes, but presumption on the basis of being able to use Google is a bit fatuous.

      what about if you googled his name and found out he wasn't a structural engineer but a conman who had swindled people out of money on bogus building projects.......would you be so dismissive of google then
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 05:56:25 PM
      But there are other cases where police have gone to a place which the missing person had never lived in, and which on the date of disappearance had no connection to the case (because it was moved to months later), and yet police obtain information there to help solve what happened to the missing person.

      Canine searches?

      I don't think so.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 06:00:32 PM
      what about if you googled his name and found out he wasn't a structural engineer but a conman who had swindled people out of money on bogus building projects.......would you be so dismissive of google then
      I googled a structural engineer of great integrity and found out there is a concerted underhand campaign involving lawyers and surveillence and even political meddling to undermine his whole life, just because he had the audacity to question the structure of a certain house of cards.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 06:03:36 PM
      Canine searches?

      I don't think so.
      I'll check one of the UK cases to find out if k9s were used, Ferryman.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 06:04:31 PM
      I googled a structural engineer of great integrity and found out there is a concerted underhand campaign involving lawyers and surveillence and even political meddling to undermine his whole life, just because he had the audacity to question the structure of a certain house of cards.

      i'd be absolutely lost without Google.............................................................................................maps
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 06:08:29 PM
      i'd be absolutely lost without Google.............................................................................................maps
      Yes it is great for locating offices in Lisbon.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Matthew Wyse on August 29, 2015, 06:11:58 PM
      Somewhat curious to know what the state of play is in Lisbon with mr amarals appeal.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 06:13:28 PM
      Somewhat curious to know what the state of play is in Lisbon with mr amarals appeal.

      try tweeting Leanne Baulch...she should know
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 29, 2015, 06:15:02 PM
      try tweeting Leanne Baulch...she should know
      @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 06:44:36 PM
      Somewhat curious to know what the state of play is in Lisbon with mr amarals appeal.

      That would certainly be an interesting topic, but maybe not for this thread.

      Why not start a new thread asking that question?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 29, 2015, 06:47:25 PM

      Yesss.  Let's have a new Thread so we can all bash Amaral.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 06:47:29 PM
      Canine searches?

      I don't think so.
      I checked another case I vaguely remembered , where police searched a house the victim had never lived in, and no-one connected with the case had ever been at until many months after the victim disappeared.
      They did use radar but you are right - I can find no reports of them deploying dogs there
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2015, 06:52:56 PM
      you must have led a very sheltered life if you think professional negligence is limited to the medical profession. I just knew I would get a much better response as there is so much "doctor hate" on this board. Are you under the illusion that all professionals never make mistakes ...add solicitors, accountants, pharmacists, dentists, opticians,teachers  etc etc. The relevance to tHE mccann case which seem to eluding you is tHAt we are quite justified in criticising Grime....it's like pulling teeth.....no...more like having teeth pulled

      What are you rabbiting about now?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 06:54:04 PM
      What are you rabbiting about now?


      More like googling. 8)--))

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 06:56:13 PM
      What are you rabbiting about now?

      is english not your first language
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 29, 2015, 06:56:34 PM
      You answered a post I addressed to Brietta. You introduced Ashya King who seems to have little to do with the McCann case.
      You seem to have copped out as per usual.
      What you and Sadie seem to have done with your examples is to indicate the medical profession aren't much cop if one can keep catching them out by Googling.

      Googling ?

      Mine wasn't googled; it was face to face.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 06:58:10 PM


      More like googling. 8)--))

      you would have to be more than a bit thick not to understand the value of google
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 07:00:03 PM
      you would have to be more than a bit thick not to understand the value of google

      Not really dave.

      Like I said yesterday, there are books and scientific journals which I read one regular basis.

      Perhaps you should do so to.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 07:02:04 PM
      Not really dave.

      Like I said yesterday, there are books and scientific journals which I read one regular basis.

      Perhaps you should do so to.

      most journals are on line...you should try googling them...you can also use google to read excerpts from books
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 07:05:06 PM
      most journals are on line...you should try googling them...you can also use google to read excerpts from books

      The internet is not the be  all and end all.

      Personally I prefer reading from books or the equivalent.

      If I need other material , it is downloaded and printed as and when required.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 29, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
      is english not your first language
      It's daylight where I am is it where you are?
      Be careful you don't turn into stone being out in daylight and all.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on August 29, 2015, 07:27:33 PM
      you must have led a very sheltered life if you think professional negligence is limited to the medical profession. I just knew I would get a much better response as there is so much "doctor hate" on this board. Are you under the illusion that all professionals never make mistakes ...add solicitors, accountants, pharmacists, dentists, opticians,teachers  etc etc. The relevance to tHE mccann case which seem to eluding you is tHAt we are quite justified in criticising Grime....it's like pulling teeth.....no...more like having teeth pulled

      It wasn't Grime's fault that he and the dogs were deployed to PdL.  In case you hadn't noticed, policemen have to obey orders and do what their superiors direct them to do.

      It wasn't Grime's fault that he was sent to a long disturbed crime scene in a corner of the world where policing and forensic science were still catching up to what we in the UK expect of our professionals.

      It wasn't Grime's fault that he was surrounded by a bunch of incompetents so if you need to apportion blame, look elsewhere.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 07:31:38 PM
      It wasn't Grime's fault that he and the dogs were deployed to PdL.  In case you hadn't noticed, policemen have to obey orders and do what their superiors direct them to do.

      It wasn't Grime's fault that he was sent to a long disturbed crime scene in a corner of the world where policing and forensic science were still catching up to what we in the UK expect of our professionals.

      Was Grime a UK police officer?

      Scrub that - he was still working for SYP.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on August 29, 2015, 07:35:07 PM
      Was Grime a UK police officer?

      Scrub that - he was still working for SYP.

      Yes, he was still a police officer when he attended PdL.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 07:40:08 PM
      It wasn't Grime's fault that he and the dogs were deployed to PdL.  In case you hadn't noticed, policemen have to obey orders and do what their superiors direct them to do.

      It wasn't Grime's fault that he was sent to a long disturbed crime scene in a corner of the world where policing and forensic science were still catching up to what we in the UK expect of our professionals.

      It wasn't Grime's fault that he was surrounded by a bunch of incompetents so if you need to apportion blame, look elsewhere.

      Grime was a freelance dog handler.

      And he is certainly culpable for many aspects of the way he handled his dog.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 07:45:34 PM
      Yes, he was still a police officer when he attended PdL.

      Martin Grime retired in July 2007

      3.10.11
      We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
      July 2007
      . We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
      http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 07:46:24 PM
      Grime was a freelance dog handler.

      And he is certainly culpable for many aspects of the way he handled his dog.

      Later.At the time of the PdL searches he was working for SYP

      Translation
      DVD Rogatory Letters 3rd volume
      Martin Grime

      Dated May 14 2008

      I am a retired police offer, previously at the service of the South Yorkshire police. Between August 1-8, 2007, and while working for the South Yorkshire police, I collaborated with the Judicial Police, Portugal, as regards their Operations Task Force.
      On the 17th of August 2007, I completed a report for the Head of Investigations of the Judicial Police, which was submitted by the Leicestershire Police. This report is exhibited as MG/1 and identified by the label bearing my signature.

      http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 07:49:21 PM
      Later.At the time of the PdL searches he was working for SYP

      Translation
      DVD Rogatory Letters 3rd volume
      Martin Grime

      Dated May 14 2008

      I am a retired police offer, previously at the service of the South Yorkshire police. Between August 1-8, 2007, and while working for the South Yorkshire police, I collaborated with the Judicial Police, Portugal, as regards their Operations Task Force.
      On the 17th of August 2007, I completed a report for the Head of Investigations of the Judicial Police, which was submitted by the Leicestershire Police. This report is exhibited as MG/1 and identified by the label bearing my signature.

      http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      The key is his personal profile.

      Whereas Harrison gives as his base the business address of the (now defunct) National Policing Improvement Agency, Grime gives his home address in Oxford.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 07:53:39 PM
      But that's ridiculous because any unknown perp could have caused the clothes alerts.

      Indeed it was extraordinary, however any port in a storm and we seem to have been in a place where an alleged dream interpretation was accepted as probable cause so misinterpretation of dogs is a small step from that and as ridiculous as it was ... how many dog threads have we on the McCann boards discussing it? and how many internet blogs are on the go discussing the dogs and their 'findings'?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 29, 2015, 07:57:32 PM
      Was Grime a UK police officer?

      Scrub that - he was still working for SYP.

      That still doesn't appear to be entirely clear to me... I expect that there's an untaken leave issue that has created the technical ambiguity.

      I agree with FM that giving his personal address seems a bit odd for someone still working for SYP.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 07:57:49 PM
      The key is his personal profile.

      Whereas Harrison gives as his base the business address of the (now defunct) National Policing Improvement Agency, Grime gives his home address in Oxford.

      What is the date of that?

      At the time of the searches (August 2007)he was working for SYP.

      It may well be that at the time of the reports he was retired. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 07:58:20 PM
      I googled a structural engineer of great integrity and found out there is a concerted underhand campaign involving lawyers and surveillence and even political meddling to undermine his whole life, just because he had the audacity to question the structure of a certain house of cards.

      Possibly as a direct result of never really having had any integrity to begin with ... and never having been in  possession of an Ace at any time at all.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 08:01:34 PM
      If it was my child I would take the excellent professional work of Amaral Harrison and Grime very seriously and instead of bandying around insults of them, I would want to find out what very real scenario led to those  those alerts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 29, 2015, 08:03:00 PM
      What is the date of that?

      At the time of the searches (August 2007)he was working for SYP.

      It may well be that at the time of the reports he was retired.

      He retired in July 2007, JP.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:04:10 PM
      What is the date of that?

      At the time of the searches (August 2007)he was working for SYP.

      It may well be that at the time of the reports he was retired.

      Grime's profile is undated.

      SYP would not have deployed two dogs and one handler ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 29, 2015, 08:18:35 PM
      If it was my child I would take the excellent professional work of Amaral Harrison and Grime very seriously and instead of bandying around insults of them, I would want to find out what very real scenario led to those  those alerts.

      Do you mean when you and your family are faced with never ending media half-truths while you're all still in the country to which you'd only gone for a week's break and whose language and legal system you don't understand .. or later, when you still have a missing child to find and don't want to antagonise a fragile relationship?

      I've asked this before (with no response), but what exactly has Amaral's "excellent professional work" been?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 08:21:04 PM
      The critical date is the date of the searches and his employment status at the time.

      "I am a retired police offer, previously at the service of the South Yorkshire police. Between August 1-8, 2007, and while working for the South Yorkshire police, I collaborated with the Judicial Police, Portugal, as regards their Operations Task Force.
      On the 17th of August 2007, I completed a report for the Head of Investigations of the Judicial Police, which was submitted by the Leicestershire Police. This report is exhibited as MG/1 and identified by the label bearing my signature."

      I rather doubt that he would lie about this. What would be the point? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:27:45 PM
      The critical date is the date of the searches and his employment status at the time.

      "I am a retired police offer, previously at the service of the South Yorkshire police. Between August 1-8, 2007, and while working for the South Yorkshire police, I collaborated with the Judicial Police, Portugal, as regards their Operations Task Force.
      On the 17th of August 2007, I completed a report for the Head of Investigations of the Judicial Police, which was submitted by the Leicestershire Police. This report is exhibited as MG/1 and identified by the label bearing my signature."

      I rather doubt that he would lie about this. What would be the point?

      He may have been on annual leave leading up to retirement which would have made him, technically, still an employee of SYP, but just not representing them in PdL.

      SYP would have deployed two dogs and two handlers (or at least dogs to handlers in one-to-one ratio).

      That's what we've seen in this, second, enquiry.

      But certainly he gave his home address as his base and never wore his police uniform in PdL.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2015, 08:38:17 PM
      He may have been on annual leave leading up to retirement which would have made him, technically, still an employee of SYP, but just not representing them in PdL.

      SYP would have deployed two dogs and two handlers (or at least dogs to handlers in one-to-one ratio).

      That's what we've seen in this, second, enquiry.

      But certainly he gave his home address as his base and never wore his police uniform in PdL.

      Have you any evidence that he was on annual leave ferryman and, if so, he would have been allowed to take two police dogs to Portugal when he was for his own enrichment ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 29, 2015, 08:39:35 PM
      He may have been on annual leave leading up to retirement which would have made him, technically, still an employee of SYP, but just not representing them in PdL.

      SYP would have deployed two dogs and two handlers (or at least dogs to handlers in one-to-one ratio).

      That's what we've seen in this, second, enquiry.

      But certainly he gave his home address as his base and never wore his police uniform in PdL.


      'Working for the SY police'- doesn't necessarily mean as a PAYE employee - he could have been working for them as a subcontractor.    I too have wondered why he didn't wear a police uniform.     IIRC the other UK police with dogs wore their uniforms when on duty.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:42:13 PM
      Have you any evidence that he was on annual leave ferryman and, if so, he would have been allowed to take two police dogs to Portugal when he was for his own enrichment ?

      Enrichment is not the point.  The point of one-to-one dog-to-handler ratio at a single crime scene is bias.

      The propensity to bias is less if each dog at the same crime scene has its own handler.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 08:43:31 PM

      'Working for the SY police'- doesn't necessarily mean as a PAYE employee - he could have been working for them as a subcontractor.    I too have wondered why he didn't wear a police uniform.     IIRC the other UK police with dogs wore their uniforms when on duty.

      Portugal in August in uniform?  A touch warm.

      Do the SY police for operation grange wear uniform when in Portugal?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 08:44:48 PM
      If it was my child I would take the excellent professional work of Amaral Harrison and Grime very seriously and instead of bandying around insults of them, I would want to find out what very real scenario led to those  those alerts.

      you are joking
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:45:51 PM
      Portugal in August in uniform?  A touch warm.

      Do the SY police for operation grange wear uniform when in Portugal?

      In the second enquiry we have seen uk Police officers wearing their police officer uniforms.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 08:49:15 PM
      Portugal in August in uniform?  A touch warm.

      Do the SY police for operation grange wear uniform when in Portugal?
      Suits ties polished shoes and briefcases IIRC.
      However I have seen a photo of the new SIO (on a different case) in forensic gear.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 08:54:27 PM
      The internet is not the be  all and end all.

      Personally I prefer reading from books or the equivalent.

      If I need other material , it is downloaded and printed as and when required.

      so now you are talking about the net rather than just google...
      the internet is an incredible tool. I buy a few books...subscribe to journals that are part of professional associations I belong to but the net is way...way ahead of anything else when it comes to acquiring new and up to date knowledge....I can now watch webinars from all over the world from the comfort of my home...there are hours and hours of recorded lectures that I can find using google...not only that I can discuss on fora ideas with fellow professionals from all over the world.....you really do sound like a dinosaur
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2015, 08:55:02 PM
      Enrichment is not the point.  The point of one-to-one dog-to-handler ratio at a single crime scene is bias.

      The propensity to bias is less if each dog at the same crime scene has its own handler.

      This is the second time you've avoided a question of mine today. Again have you any evidence MG was on holiday when in PDL and do you think he would be allowed to make money from two police dogs ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 08:55:21 PM
      Suits ties polished shoes and briefcases IIRC.
      However I have seen a photo of the new SIO (on a different case) in forensic gear.

      So not uniforms.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 08:58:48 PM
      This is the second time you've avoided a question of mine today. Again have you any evidence MG was on holiday when in PDL and do you think he would be allowed to make money from two police dogs ?

      Must have missed the first one, but I've certainly answered that.

      Grime was given possession of both dogs when he retired.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 09:00:19 PM
      That still doesn't appear to be entirely clear to me... I expect that there's an untaken leave issue that has created the technical ambiguity.

      I agree with FM that giving his personal address seems a bit odd for someone still working for SYP.

      Most people when writing a CV use their home address. Last time you wrote one, did you give your current employer's address?

      I don't think anything wrong can be inferred from this, especially if Mr Grime had plans to go freelance in the near future. Much ado about nothng IMO.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2015, 09:01:19 PM
      Must have missed the first one, but I've certainly answered that.

      Grime was given possession of both dogs when he retired.

      Bug he wasn't retired when in PDL and you still haven't provided evidence that he was even on holiday.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:03:24 PM
      Bug he wasn't retired when in PDL and you still haven't provided evidence that he was even on holiday.

      He never wore his police uniform and he wrote his (undated) profile from the address of his private address in Oxford.

      Harrison wrote his report from the business address of the NPIA.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 09:05:29 PM
      Grime's profile is undated.

      SYP would not have deployed two dogs and one handler ....

      And you know this how? Do you have evidence that SYP who used Mr Grime for years, with the dogs Frankie, Eddie, Keela and Morse at different times,  always sent out two handlers in the past? When they used at least two dogs?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 29, 2015, 09:09:44 PM
      He never wore his police uniform and he wrote his (undated) profile from the address of his private address in Oxford.

      Harrison wrote his report from the business address of the NPIA.

      Have you any concrete, written verification that he wasn't still fully-employed as a police officer ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:10:47 PM
      And you know this how? Do you have evidence that SYP who used Mr Grime for years, with the dogs Frankie, Eddie, Keela and Morse at different times,  always sent out two handlers in the past? When they used at least two dogs?

      I presume it is the second point you are querying?

      It's to do with bias.

      UK and (mainstream) US policing the same.  One handler may handle only one dog at a given crime-scene.

      In this second enquiry we've seen that, two dogs deployed and two handlers (one a woman, not that that's relevant).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 09:13:56 PM
      I presume it is the second point you are querying?

      It's to do with bias.

      UK and (mainstream) US policing the same.  One handler may handle only one dog at a given crime-scene.

      In this second enquiry we've seen that, two dogs deployed and two handlers (one a woman, not that that's relevant).

      and what did the foray into Portugal reveal last year ??

      Two letters of the alphabet reveal the answer. 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 09:15:42 PM
      and what did the foray into Portugal reveal last year ??

      Two letters of the alphabet reveal the answer. 8((()*/

      are these the same two letters that describe what the alerts tell us
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 09:16:51 PM
      are these the same two letters that describe what the alerts tell us


      Well Grimes dogs did alert and last year..... ?>)()<
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 09:18:29 PM
      I presume it is the second point you are querying?

      It's to do with bias.

      UK and (mainstream) US policing the same.  One handler may handle only one dog at a given crime-scene.

      In this second enquiry we've seen that, two dogs deployed and two handlers (one a woman, not that that's relevant).

      I don't profess to know the rules, what I do know is that Mr Grime has been used before PDL in other cases with two dogs, and no other handler, so therefore that puts your claim that SYP wouldn't do this in question.

      It is not as if in PDL Mr Grime used both dogs at the same tme, hence, it was always one handler one dog at any given time, don't really see the problem ....but of course in your mind it's bias, profit, conscious cueing, lying in his CV, getting people in personnel to doctor his credentials, and all sorts...please yourself

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:31:14 PM
      I don't profess to know the rules, what I do know is that Mr Grime has been used before PDL in other cases with two dogs, and no other handler, so therefore that puts your claim that SYP wouldn't do this in question.

      It is not as if in PDL Mr Grime used both dogs at the same tme, hence, it was always one handler one dog at any given time, don't really see the problem ....but of course in your mind it's bias, profit, conscious cueing, lying in his CV, getting people in personnel to doctor his credentials, and all sorts...please yourself

      I think you'll find Grime was deployed alone with Eddie or with another handler (Ellis) and another dog (Frankie).

      Not sure Keela and Eddie were ever deployed together on the same assignment before PdL
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 29, 2015, 09:32:41 PM
      I think you'll find Grime was deployed alone with Eddie or with another handler (Ellis) and another dog (Frankie).

      Not sure Keela and Eddie were ever deployed together on the same assignment.

      ??
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:34:24 PM
      ??

      From an FOI answer which (I believe) Carana has, but I don't.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 09:35:48 PM
      I think you'll find Grime was deployed alone with Eddie or with another handler (Ellis) and another dog (Frankie).

      Not sure Keela and Eddie were ever deployed together on the same assignment.

      So basically, it boils down go you have no clue. Not a great position to come from when asserting this that and the other.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:36:56 PM
      So basically, it boils down go you have no clue. Not a great position to come from when asserting this that and the other.

      I appear to have more of a clue than you.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 09:40:18 PM
      So basically, it boils down go you have no clue. Not a great position to come from when asserting this that and the other.

      doesn't matter...the alerts have no evidential value or reliability ...basically BS.

      Now if you want to discuss at length how this BS was arrived at ..it's up to you...but it's still BS
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 09:45:10 PM
      I appear to have more of a clue than you.

      No need to get personal, your last post was decidedly unsure in the second part and assertive in the first but with no back up, and seeing as you frequently state things which later are proven false, it really would be in your best interest to back up any claim you make

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 09:47:18 PM
      No need to get personal, your last post was decidedly unsure in the second part and assertive in the first but with no back up, and seeing as you frequently state things which later are proven false, it really would be in your best interest to back up any claim you make

      can you back up your claim that Grime said the dogs alerted to cadaver odour
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 09:47:47 PM
      No need to get personal, your last post was decidedly unsure in the second part and assertive in the first but with no back up, and seeing as you frequently state things which later are proven false, it really would be in your best interest to back up any claim you make

      If you didn't know that it is standard policy to deploy dogs and handlers in one-to-one ratios, then I have informed you of something.

      That's not personal.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 29, 2015, 09:48:07 PM
      No-one has noticed a problem re of one of Amaral's ideas Why would anyone put anything in a cupboard that doesn't belong there and then take it out again. What's the point. It achieves absolutely nothing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 09:51:30 PM
      can you back up your claim that Grime said the dogs alerted to cadaver odour

      I already gave it yesterday, don't you remember?

      In Grime's professional opinion the EVRD dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent contaminant...except for his opinion after the garage searches where it was his opinion the alerts suggested cadaver scent contaminant or blood

      !

      AS anyone would expect from a cadaver dog giving alerts!

      Cue nitpicking claptrap
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 09:53:49 PM
      I already gave it yesterday, don't you remember?

      In Grime's professional opinion the EVRD dog alerts were suggestive of cadaver scent contaminant...except for his opinion after the garage searches where it was his opinion the alerts suggested cadaver scent contaminant or blood

      !

      AS anyone would expect from a cadaver dog giving alerts!

      Cue nitpicking claptrap

      so you cannot back up your claim as I pointed out..

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 09:57:04 PM
      If you didn't know that it is standard policy to deploy dogs and handlers in one-to-one ratios, then I have informed you of something.

      That's not personal.

      One to one it was, Grime worked with one dog at a time
      You haven't provided evidence any other handler was with Grime on searches previous to PDL and that SYP would never have sent one handler out with two dogs, but never mind, I'm not going to lose sleep over it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 29, 2015, 10:03:35 PM
      One to one it was, Grime worked with one dog at a time
      You haven't provided evidence any other handler was with Grime on searches previous to PDL and that SYP would never have sent one handler out with two dogs, but never mind, I'm not going to lose sleep over it

      By one-to-one I mean a ratio of one dog to one handler.

      In his SYP days, Grime would either operate alone with Eddie or he would operate in tandem with another dog, Frankie and his handler Ellis.

      But Grime would never operate two dogs at the same crime scene (neither would any other handler).

      As I say, I believe Carana has the FOI answer that substantiates that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 10:04:38 PM
      so you cannot back up your claim as I pointed out..

      I bow to your superior knowledge, intellect and perception...I am in total awe.....now is that enough for you to go away and stop snapping at my heels all over the forum?

      Grime said suggest because a cadaver dog alert suggests , synonyms, indicates  shows, explains,exactly that which it has been trained for...cadaver scent.....if Grime thought it suggested anything else he would have said so.....deal with it, it will never go away just for you....you are at liberty though to think Eddie alerted to someone's remnant scent of sweat, used nappy or a clipped toenail though...it's a free world

       8)--))

      http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/suggest
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 10:07:51 PM
      I bow to your superior knowledge, intellect and perception...I am in total awe.....now is that enough for you to go away and stop snapping at my heels all over the forum?

      Grime said suggest because a cadaver dog alert suggests , synonyms, indicates  shows, explains,exactly that which it has been trained for...cadaver scent.....if Grime thought it suggested anything else he would have said so.....deal with it, it will never go away just for you....you are at liberty though to think Eddie alerted to someone's remnant scent of sweat, used nappy or a clipped toenail though...it's a free world

       8)--))

      I shall post as I wish...Grime made it quite clear he did not know what caused the alert
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 10:10:13 PM
      I shall post as I wish...Grime made it quite clear he did not know what caused the alert

      Why would he, it was cadaverscent contaminant, in his professional opinion,(unlike yours)  where it came from is what Grime did not know


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 10:13:55 PM
      Why would he, it was cadaverscent contaminant, in his professional opinion,(unlike yours)  where it came from is what Grime did not know

      oh dear...so you still think Grime said it WAS cadaver odour..he didn't
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 10:18:49 PM
      oh dear...so you still think Grime said it WAS cadaver odour..he didn't

      It is Ok always trying or wanting to have the last word, it is a facet of human nature ...in some....it shows you're a bad loser too, but you cannot change his words, it was in his opinion, suggestive/indicative etc etc etc , for the last time CADAVER SCENT contaminant most of the time

      I really do not understand your vehemence in not accepting this

      oh well

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 10:23:12 PM
      It is Ok always trying or wanting to have the last word, it is a facet of human nature ...in some....it shows you're a bad loser too, but you cannot change his words, it was in his opinion, suggestive/indicative etc etc etc , for the last time CADAVER SCENT contaminant most of the time

      I really do not understand your vehemence in not accepting this

      oh well

      I don't accept it because it isn't true and you are exhibiting gross stupidity to claim it is..Grime said it was suggestive of cadaver odour...that is not confirmation
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 10:23:36 PM
      No-one has noticed a problem re of one of Amaral's ideas Why would anyone put anything in a cupboard that doesn't belong there and then take it out again. What's the point. It achieves absolutely nothing.

      A clue might help Pegasus as to what you are talking about.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 10:26:44 PM
      I don't accept it because it isn't true and you are exhibiting gross stupidity to claim it is..Grime said it was suggestive of cadaver odour...that is not confirmation

      So, you are saying what Mr Grime SAID is not true, well, you're at Liberty to call him a liar, but that is your problem, not mine, also reported for breaking forum rules in name calling/ad hom, something you seriously need to get out of your system if you ever want to get anywhere near to be taken seriously...that's all chuck
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 10:29:11 PM
      So, you are saying what Mr Grime SAID is not true, well, you're at Liberty to call him a liar, but that is your problem, not mine, also reported for breaking forum rules in name calling/ad hom, something you seriously need to get out of your system if you ever want to get anywhere near to be taken seriously...that's all chuck

      I can't and don't argue with what Grime said...but you are misquoting him which the whole forum can see
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 10:29:27 PM
      It is Ok always trying or wanting to have the last word, it is a facet of human nature ...in some....it shows you're a bad loser too, but you cannot change his words, it was in his opinion, suggestive/indicative etc etc etc , for the last time CADAVER SCENT contaminant most of the time

      I really do not understand your vehemence in not accepting this

      oh well

      Could you provide a cite for that?

      Because in a more contemporaneous report,Grime suggests that Eddie is alerting to blood.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 10:34:51 PM
      so it seems there is a secret report available only to mercury where grime says eddie alerts to cadaver most of the time

      and to think mercury had the gall to criticise my post...absolutely priceless
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 10:37:41 PM
      I can't and don't argue with what Grime said...but you are misquoting him which the whole forum can see
      nope not misquoted him, why would I, stop being silly
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 10:39:28 PM
      nope not misquoted him, why would I, stop being silly

      so tell me where does grime say this...

      eddie alerts to cadaver most of the time

       *&*%£ *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 10:40:05 PM
      Could you provide a cite for that?

      Because in a more contemporaneous report,Grime suggests that Eddie is alerting to blood.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      It is all there in that report. All along I have said Mr Grime said blood could be a reason for the EVRD dog alerts in the car searches in the garage but in the villa/clothing and in his summary he states just cadaverscent contaminant
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 10:40:38 PM
      nope not misquoted him, why would I, stop being silly

      If you are contending that Grime has said that  " it was in his opinion, suggestive/indicative etc etc etc , for the last time CADAVER SCENT contaminant most of the time" I think you may need to provide a cite for that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 10:42:21 PM
      so it seems there is a secret report available only to mercury where grime says eddie alerts to cadaver most of the time

      and to think mercury had the gall to criticise my post...absolutely priceless

      2/3 is most of the time...better than bleating Eddie alerts to blood so that explains everything which patently wasn't the case by any stretch of the imagnation ,isn't it! Einstein.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 10:47:23 PM
      It is all there in that report. All along I have said Mr Grime said blood could be a reason for the EVRD dog alerts in the car searches in the garage but in the villa/clothing and in his summary he states just cadaverscent contaminant

      This bit?  "My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant"

       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 10:48:30 PM
      This bit?  "My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant"

      Yes, JP, all "those bits"

      Did you have a further question?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 10:49:24 PM
      This bit?  "My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant"

      I think what mercury is  saying is that you are being picky by quoting grime's exact words because it's quite acceptable to miss a few out...add a few on... and still claim that's what Grime said
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 29, 2015, 10:53:22 PM
      It's also a fact that Eddie could not tell Grime how old the scent was, or whether it was from above or below ground, or whether the original source was at the spot where he barked or whether the scent  had drifted there from elsewhere.     Or even if it had been innocently transferred there from an outside source by cross contamination.

      Hence his statement that the alerts are of no use unless they can be corroborated.   Without corroboration there are just too many variances which could have nothing to do with Madeleine which could have resulted in an alert.

      So ultimately  - they add nothing to the investigation.

      Quote from Amarals book:

      Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it’s Keela’s turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood.   The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cavaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it’s probably there that the death occurred.
      Unquote

      Amaral was obviously unaware (or chose to ignore)  that Eddie also alerted to blood - which included blood from living people  - and so what he claims in his book is patently seriously flawed.    I cannot help but  wonder how many people who read it - believed what he claimed and judged the McCanns guilty as a result.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 10:56:35 PM
      It's also a fact that Eddie could not tell Grime how old the scent was, or whether it was from above or below ground, or whether the original source was at the spot where he barked or whether the scent  had drifted there from elsewhere.     Or even if it had been innocently transferred there from an outside source by cross contamination.

      Hence his statement that the alerts are of no use unless they can be corroborated.   Without corroboration there are just too many variances which could have nothing to do with Madeleine which could have resulted in an alert.

      So ultimately  - they add nothing to the investigation.

      Quote from Amarals book:

      Eddie is always the first to be brought onto a site. Once he has discerned the odour that he knows so well, it’s Keela’s turn to go into action, on the lookout for the slightest whiff of blood.   The simultaneous presence of the two elements in a given place - blood and cavaver odours - is taken to indicate that a body has been there and that it’s probably there that the death occurred.
      Unquote

      Amaral was obviously unaware (or chose to ignore)  that Eddie also alerted to blood - which included blood from living people  - and so what he claims in his book is patently seriously flawed.    I cannot help but  wonder how many people who read it - believed what he claimed and judged the McCanns guilty as a result.

      Cadaver dog news was all over the papers in August 2007, and beyond,can't blame Amaral for that now, since h book was a whle year after, steady on
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 10:57:37 PM
      Yes, JP, all "those bits"

      Did you have a further question?

      Is that all he said? The complete quote?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 29, 2015, 10:58:24 PM
      Cadaver dog news was all over the papers in August 2007, and beyond,can't blame Amaral for that now, since h book was a whle year after, steady on

      seems like you have spilled your drink on your keyboard
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 11:22:28 PM
      Yes, JP, all "those bits"

      Did you have a further question?

      "My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant"

      Now Mercury -is that the complete statement from Grime?

      And was it written before,or after,the FSS report?



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 29, 2015, 11:24:16 PM
      Cadaver dog news was all over the papers in August 2007, and beyond,can't blame Amaral for that now, since h book was a whle year after, steady on

      IMO Mercury there is a big difference between newspaper articles and a claim made in a book written by the Lead investigator of a case.    That latter fact alone would carry a lot of clout with his readers IMO.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 11:28:57 PM
      "My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant"

      Now Mercury -is that the complete statement from Grime?

      And was it written before,or after,the FSS report?

      No it obviously isn't his complete statement but the point under discussion was whether he said the dog alerts were connected with cadaver scent....fast forward.....it doesn't matter when it was written...the FSS have no ability to test cadaver scent....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 11:31:27 PM
      IMO Mercury there is a big difference between newspaper articles and a claim made in a book written by the Lead investigator of a case.    That latter fact alone would carry a lot of clout with his readers IMO.

      Well, I disagree with your opinion as books TV online reports are all interchangeable these days...the fact remains the cadaver alerts were a massive turning point and under major discussion in all media by many a whole year before the book...you cannot lay that on Amaral, but you are free to bash
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 11:36:57 PM
      No-one has noticed a problem re of one of Amaral's ideas Why would anyone put anything in a cupboard that doesn't belong there and then take it out again. What's the point. It achieves absolutely nothing.
      Bumping this again, give us a clue Pegasus
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 29, 2015, 11:42:39 PM
      Well, I disagree with your opinion as books TV online reports are all interchangeable these days...the fact remains the cadaver alerts were a massive turning point and under major discussion in all media by many a whole year before the book...you cannot lay that on Amaral, but you are free to bash

      IMO criticism of Amaral's lack of understanding of the abililties of the dogs is deserved.   Of all people - as the Lead Investigator he should have scrupulously acquainted himself with the correct facts concerning such an important subject.   IMO either he didn't do that - or he cherry picked the facts which suited him and studiously ignored the facts which didn't.   Having read his book its my opinion that he did the latter.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 11:46:02 PM
      IMO criticism of Amaral's lack of understanding of the abililties of the dogs is deserved.   Of all people - as the Lead Investigator he should have scrupulously acquainted himself with the correct facts concerning such an important subject.   IMO either he didn't do that - or he cherry picked the facts which suited him and studiously ignored the facts which didn't.   Having read his book its my opinion that he did the latter.

      It wasn't his job to do so, just as it wasn!t his job to interview the Mccanns or "meet them"

      Just another stick to beat Amaral with

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 29, 2015, 11:47:16 PM
      No it obviously isn't his complete statement but the point under discussion was whether he said the dog alerts were connected with cadaver scent....fast forward.....it doesn't matter when it was written...the FSS have no ability to test cadaver scent....

      Funny that...... 

      So you quoted only part of that paragraph, presumably hoping that nobody would notice the other bit that was relevant but not quite so helpful to your argument. 

      "My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
      suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
      number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
      reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
      corroborating evidence."

      Mercury -a tip  - don't, whatever you do, consider a career in the law, or any other profession which requires honest argument and appraisal.

      ____________

      In the more detailed body of the report, Grime says (excerpt):

      All five apartments were searched using the EVRD. The only alert indications
      were at apartment 5a, the reported scene.

      The EVRD alerted in the:
      Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by
      the door.


      Living room, behind sofa.
      Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
      Garden area directly under veranda.
      My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's
      behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.
      He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search.
      On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an above
      average interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent'
      and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to
      identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.

      I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so
      alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge.

      The dog's behaviour for these alerts led me to the following opinions:

      MINISTERIO PUBLICO DE PORTIMAO

      The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area
      being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible
      evidence to be located only the remaining scent.

      The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog
      was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas
      on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was
      in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely
      presence of human blood.

      The forensic science support officers were then deployed to recover items for
      laboratory analysis.

      and

      Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at
      Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were
      parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle
      placement video recording and management of the process was conducted
      by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a
      vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family,
      the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert
      indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and
      barking. I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from
      the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door.

      This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
      no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the
      vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the
      boot area. Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a
      forensic laboratory in the U.K.

      It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
      contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can
      be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating
      evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the EVRD without
      any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further deployed.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

       



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 11:51:20 PM
      Funny that...... 

      So you quoted only part of that paragraph, presumably hoping that nobody would notice the other bit that was relevant but not quite so helpful to your argument. 

      "My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant. This does not however
      suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
      number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
      reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
      corroborating evidence."

      Mercury -a tip  - don't, whatever you do, consider a career in the law, or any other profession which requires honest argument and appraisal.

      ____________

      In the more detailed body of the report, Grime says (excerpt):

      All five apartments were searched using the EVRD. The only alert indications
      were at apartment 5a, the reported scene.

      The EVRD alerted in the:
      Rear bedroom of the apartment in the immediate right hand corner by
      the door.


      Living room, behind sofa.
      Veranda outside parent's bedroom.
      Garden area directly under veranda.
      My observation of the dog's behaviour in this instance was that the dog's
      behaviour changed immediately upon opening the front door to the apartment.
      He will normally remain in the sit position until released and tasked to search.
      On this occasion he broke the stay and entered the apartment with an above
      average interest. His behaviour was such that I believed him to be 'in scent'
      and I therefore allowed him to free search without direction to allow him to
      identify the source of his interest. He did so alerting in the rear bedroom.

      I released him from this and tasked him to continue to search. He did so
      alerting in an area to the rear of the sofa in the lounge.

      The dog's behaviour for these alerts led me to the following opinions:

      MINISTERIO PUBLICO DE PORTIMAO

      The first alert was given with the dogs head in the air without a positive area
      being identified. This is the alert given by him when there is no tangible
      evidence to be located only the remaining scent.

      The second alert was one where a definitive area was evident. The CSI dog
      was therefore deployed who gave specific alert indications to specific areas
      on the tiled floor area behind the sofa and on the curtain in the area that was
      in contact with the floor behind the sofa. This would indicate to the likely
      presence of human blood.

      The forensic science support officers were then deployed to recover items for
      laboratory analysis.

      and

      Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at
      Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were
      parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle
      placement video recording and management of the process was conducted
      by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a
      vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family,
      the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert
      indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and
      barking. I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from
      the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door.

      This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
      no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the
      vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the
      boot area. Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a
      forensic laboratory in the U.K.

      It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
      contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can
      be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating
      evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the EVRD without
      any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further deployed.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      I'd make a better lawyer than you. there is nothing in your post that suggests Iwas lying or anything of the sort, .the point under discussion which was discussed with YOU was the term cadaver scent contaminant...I actually said he said it in two parts of the report but included blood in another part, not exactly sure what your problem really is here, big fail??
      I suggest you read back and sort your cells out

      I SAID also Grime didn't say how the cadaver scent contaminant ended up there....stroll on... you have no argument against my posts at all, and of course you will prove where I was dishonest
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 29, 2015, 11:54:22 PM
      Bumping this again, give us a clue Pegasus

      I would think Pegasus would say:- Why would someone put a cadaver in a wardrobe with a pile of laundry then take it out again?
      I'm sure he/she will correct me if I have misinterpreted that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 29, 2015, 11:55:40 PM
      It wasn't his job to do so, just as it wasn!t his job to interview the Mccanns or "meet them"

      Just another stick to beat Amaral with

      If you believe it wasn't his job to fully inform himself of the abilities of the sniffer dogs before making claims about them in order to implicate the McCanns,  then I can only assume that your expectations of the Lead Investigator are no different to those of reporters writing sensational articles about the case in order to sell papers.    Personally I would expect far more from a professional police officer.   

      (off to bed now - goodnight Mercury)


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 29, 2015, 11:58:35 PM
      If you believe it wasn't his job to fully inform himself of the abilities of the sniffer dogs before making claims about them in order to implicate the McCanns,  then I can only assume that your expectations of the Lead Investigator are no different to those of reporters writing sensational articles about the case in order to sell papers.    Personally I would expect far more from a professional police officer.   

      (off to bed now - goodnight Mercury)

      he was a SIO he didn't do the legwork, goodnight
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 30, 2015, 12:01:42 AM
      I would think Pegasus would say:- Why would someone put a cadaver in a wardrobe with a pile of laundry then take it out again?
      I'm sure he/she will correct me if I have misinterpreted that.

      Err no I don't think that is what Pegasus was referring to, if you hid a cadaver in a wardrobe you would take it out again asap before police got there...what????

      logging off, catch up tomorrow
      !


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 30, 2015, 12:14:51 AM
      Err no I don't think that is what Pegasus was referring to, if you hid a cadaver in a wardrobe you would take it out again asap before police got there...what????

      logging off, catch up tomorrow
      !

      Who would have hidden the cadaver, which according to Amaral was behind the sofa, in the wardrobe - and when & why would they have done that?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 30, 2015, 01:01:06 AM
      I would think Pegasus would say:- Why would someone put a cadaver in a wardrobe with a pile of laundry then take it out again?
      I'm sure he/she will correct me if I have misinterpreted that.

      Is that a trick question? You can hide something in a wardrobe if you are meant to be somewhere else.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 30, 2015, 01:05:46 AM
      Is that a trick question? You can hide something in a wardrobe if you are meant to be somewhere else.

      When does Amaral state that Madeleine died?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 30, 2015, 01:20:09 AM
      When does Amaral state that Madeleine died?
       

      His theory in the documentary was that Maddy heard her father's voice outside and when trying to look though the window fell from the sofa and died. Kate later discovered the body and hid it in the wardrobe. In my theory, Maddy was moved out of the apartment before 9:30 but where was she at that time - in bed, behind the sofa or hiding in the wardrobe?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 30, 2015, 01:33:56 AM
       

      His theory in the documentary was that Maddy heard her father's voice outside and when trying to look though the window fell from the sofa and died. Kate later discovered the body and hid it in the wardrobe which I don't agree with. Maddy was moved out of the apartment before 9:30 in my theory but where was she when moved out - in bed, behind the sofa or hiding in the wardrobe?

      If she was moved before 9.30, why would her cadaver have been placed in the wardrobe? Then, how do you explain the presence of the cadaver scent behind the sofa?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 30, 2015, 02:02:23 AM
      From Amaral's perspective - why would Kate move a body from behind a sofa into a wardrobe at 10pm where it would be found by searchers?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 08:17:29 AM
       

      His theory in the documentary was that Maddy heard her father's voice outside and when trying to look though the window fell from the sofa and died. Kate later discovered the body and hid it in the wardrobe. In my theory, Maddy was moved out of the apartment before 9:30 but where was she at that time - in bed, behind the sofa or hiding in the wardrobe?

      Amaral must be absolutely stupid to think that Maddie could fall off the sofa  and die....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 30, 2015, 08:25:54 AM

      And how did The Death Scent accumulate?  Can someone answer that for me?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2015, 08:28:32 AM
      If she was moved before 9.30, why would her cadaver have been placed in the wardrobe? Then, how do you explain the presence of the cadaver scent behind the sofa?

      You put it in the wardrobe until it's dark. Who says there was cadaver scent behind the sofa? Blood was detected by Keela, so Eddie could have been alerting to blood there also.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 08:30:53 AM
      all the alerts are so unreliable they have no evidential value or reliability.......but some imagine they are evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 30, 2015, 08:40:16 AM
      You put it in the wardrobe until it's dark. Who says there was cadaver scent behind the sofa? Blood was detected by Keela, so Eddie could have been alerting to blood there also.

      So at what time do you think Madeleine died?  It was dark by nine o'clock.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2015, 09:11:45 AM
      So at what time do you think Madeleine died?  It was dark by nine o'clock.

      If Eddie was correct (he has a 50/50 chance either way) a cadaver was in the parent's bedroom, on the balcony outside the parent's bedroom, and in a flowerbed below. Allowing time for the scent to develop there would have had to have been a cadaver in the bedroom by at least 8pm, maybe earlier.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 30, 2015, 09:20:11 AM
      If Eddie was correct (he has a 50/50 chance either way) a cadaver was in the parent's bedroom, on the balcony outside the parent's bedroom, and in a flowerbed below. Allowing time for the scent to develop there would have had to have been a cadaver in the bedroom by at least 8pm, maybe earlier.

      Nothing to do with some sort of transference then?

      8pm or earlier?  How did that happen.  Madeleine died and no one made any attempt to help her?  Just dumped her in the flower bed, on the balcony and in the wardrobe.  Where did they dump her first, do you think?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 09:40:45 AM
      If Eddie was correct (he has a 50/50 chance either way) a cadaver was in the parent's bedroom, on the balcony outside the parent's bedroom, and in a flowerbed below. Allowing time for the scent to develop there would have had to have been a cadaver in the bedroom by at least 8pm, maybe earlier.

      Grime never mentions the word cadaver...your post is pure speculation with no evidence to support it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2015, 09:42:30 AM
      Nothing to do with some sort of transference then?

      8pm or earlier?  How did that happen.  Madeleine died and no one made any attempt to help her?  Just dumped her in the flower bed, on the balcony and in the wardrobe.  Where did they dump her first, do you think?

      Madeleine fell from the balcony to the flowerbed shortly after her parents left the apartment. Gerry found body shortly before 22.00 and initially laid it in the bedroom. Scent pools so cadaver scent is detected in the corner of the bedroom next to the wardrobe. Simple really.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 09:54:08 AM
      Madeleine fell from the balcony to the flowerbed shortly after her parents left the apartment. Gerry found body shortly before 22.00 and initially laid it in the bedroom. Scent pools so cadaver scent is detected in the corner of the bedroom next to the wardrobe. Simple really.
      . Absolutely ridiculous but that is the best you can do
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 30, 2015, 09:56:37 AM
      Madeleine fell from the balcony to the flowerbed shortly after her parents left the apartment. Gerry found body shortly before 22.00 and initially laid it in the bedroom. Scent pools so cadaver scent is detected in the corner of the bedroom next to the wardrobe. Simple really.

      So Madeleine's dead body is in the bedroom at 10.00 - just minutes before the alarm was raised? 

      Hmmmmm - sorry Faith -  but that doesn't work for me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 30, 2015, 10:00:21 AM
      Madeleine fell from the balcony to the flowerbed shortly after her parents left the apartment. Gerry found body shortly before 22.00 and initially laid it in the bedroom. Scent pools so cadaver scent is detected in the corner of the bedroom next to the wardrobe. Simple really.

      I think you mean 21.00.  But if Madeleine fell and died just after 8.30 and Gerry removed the body at 9pm how could there have been any death scent in the flower bed or on the balcony?

      Jesus, this is beginning to sound like The Butler Done It.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 30, 2015, 10:01:40 AM
      Who would have hidden the cadaver, which according to Amaral was behind the sofa, in the wardrobe - and when & why would they have done that?

      I think he thought sedatives may have been used and IF death happened when they were left alone then their careers are ruined and the possibility that the twins would be taken away. There is also the possibility that you could hide evidence in a wardrobe if you were meant to be somewhere else such as the tapas restaurant. In a hidden cadaver theory, you don't want the body to be found for a vital reason so you investigate why such as the lead Amaral would have done if he'd known about a certain statement at the time and that leads to 6:30.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2015, 10:05:39 AM
      Nothing to do with some sort of transference then?

      8pm or earlier?  How did that happen.  Madeleine died and no one made any attempt to help her?  Just dumped her in the flower bed, on the balcony and in the wardrobe.  Where did they dump her first, do you think?

      No transference required. I never said no-one tried to help her. I didn't use the word 'dump' either. Please don't put words into my mouth (or onto my keyboard lol).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2015, 10:07:27 AM
      I think you mean 21.00.  But if Madeleine fell and died just after 8.30 and Gerry removed the body at 9pm how could there have been any death scent in the flower bed or on the balcony?

      Jesus, this is beginning to sound like The Butler Done It.

      No I meant shortly before 10 Eleanor. We have no independent witness to Gerry's whereabouts after 9.15. Madeleine's name is heard being expressed quietly sometime around 9.30 which could have been Gerry searching for her and having found her in the flowerbed takes her to the bedroom where he considers what to do next. The sofa alert, I believe, was to historic blood.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 30, 2015, 10:09:30 AM
      No I meant shortly before 10 Eleanor. We have no independent witness to Gerry's whereabouts after 9.15. Madeleine's name is heard being expressed quietly sometime around 9.30 which could have been Gerry searching for her and having found her in the flowerbed takes her to the bedroom where he considers what to do next. The sofa alert, I believe, was to historic blood.

      Apart from the fact that Gerry was in the Tapas bar at 9.30.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 30, 2015, 10:11:42 AM
      No I meant shortly before 10 Eleanor. We have no independent witness to Gerry's whereabouts after 9.15. Madeleine's name is heard being expressed quietly sometime around 9.30 which could have been Gerry searching for her and having found her in the flowerbed takes her to the bedroom where he considers what to do next. The sofa alert, I believe, was to historic blood.

      Could have been the abductor,   Madeleine sees him and hides and he calls to her.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2015, 10:13:46 AM
      Grime never mentions the word cadaver...your post is pure speculation with no evidence to support it

      Why are Grime's statements significant? Everyone's posts on here are pure speculation with no evidence to support them. So what's new?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2015, 10:19:04 AM
      Apart from the fact that Gerry was in the Tapas bar at 9.30.

      Says who ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 30, 2015, 10:21:17 AM
      No I meant shortly before 10 Eleanor. We have no independent witness to Gerry's whereabouts after 9.15. Madeleine's name is heard being expressed quietly sometime around 9.30 which could have been Gerry searching for her and having found her in the flowerbed takes her to the bedroom where he considers what to do next. The sofa alert, I believe, was to historic blood.

      But why would Gerry have been at the apartment just before 10pm to even know that she was missing?  He'd did his check at 9pm, and then Matthew at 9.30.  It was Kate's turn at 10pm.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 30, 2015, 10:35:52 AM
      Says who ?

      PJ Inspector Joao Carlos, who wrote the final PJ report.

      Just for a fleeting moment, countenance the possibility that he might have been mistaken.

      Instantly two questions would arise:

      1 Why did no one comment on Gerry's absence from the restaurant at the moment of Kate's alert?

      2. Where, in the files, is there commentary on efforts to find Gerry to tell him what had happened, including where he was when found and who found him?

      Non-existent.

      Why?

      Almost certainly because Inspector Carlos called it right to say Gerry was in the restaurant. ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 30, 2015, 10:37:53 AM
      Says who ?

      Russell O'Brian for one,   he says that Gerry came back to the table about 9.25/9.30 and they started eating their dinner.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on August 30, 2015, 10:45:10 AM
      Russell O'Brian for one,   he says that Gerry came back to the table about 9.25/9.30 and they started eating their dinner.

      Also Diane Webster who confirmed that Gerry was at the table when Kate raised the alarm.  She remembered what he said when Kate said Madeleine had gone.   i.e. ''She can't have done!'' (or words to that effect).

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 30, 2015, 10:48:47 AM
      Russell O'Brian for one,   he says that Gerry came back to the table about 9.25/9.30 and they started eating their dinner.

      Right.

      But you have to understand that, so far as Faith is concerned, these are not independent witness.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2015, 10:54:00 AM
      But why would Gerry have been at the apartment just before 10pm to even know that she was missing?  He'd did his check at 9pm, and then Matthew at 9.30.  It was Kate's turn at 10pm.

      Gerry's check was around 9.15, searching for perhaps 15-20 minutes. Matthew's check is rather controversial ( doesn't seem to know the layout etc of the apartment ). Perhaps it was slotted in to account for a man being away from the table ? By Gerry's timings Kate's alarm was sometime after 22.13 so plenty of time for him to be back at the tapas before the alarm if he was seen by the Smiths.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2015, 10:55:49 AM
      Russell O'Brian for one,   he says that Gerry came back to the table about 9.25/9.30 and they started eating their dinner.

      If he was so late returning, why did Kate decide to check at 9.30pm? Did she intend not to eat her dinner? Did Matt and Russell leave just as dinner was served?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2015, 10:56:56 AM
      If he was so late returning, why did Kate decide to check at 9.30pm? Did she intend not to eat her dinner? Did Matt and Russell leave just as dinner was served?

      Good questions.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 10:57:53 AM
      If he was so late returning, why did Kate decide to check at 9.30pm? Did she intend not to eat her dinner? Did Matt and Russell leave just as dinner was served?

      we don't have every detail so you can make up anything you like...but that's all it is...make believe
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 30, 2015, 10:58:47 AM
      we don't have every detail so you can make up anything you like...but that's all it is...make believe

      as could be  the mccanns  version of events.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 10:59:30 AM
      so maddie fell off the balcony onto a very soft landing on  the bushes below and immediately died...it's more probable she was abducted by aliens
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 11:00:38 AM
      as could be  the mccanns  version of events.

      that would be for the experts to decide...the police...who are investigating a stranger abduction
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 30, 2015, 11:06:34 AM
      that would be for the experts to decide...the police...who are investigating a stranger abduction

      No dave.

      That is in a court of law.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 11:11:40 AM
      No dave.

      That is in a court of law.

      a court of law does not decide innocence as I have explained to you before
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 30, 2015, 11:13:28 AM
      a court of law does not decide innocence as I have explained to you before

      A court of law decides 'not guilty or guilty' dave.

      It's not up to the police.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 30, 2015, 11:13:52 AM
      so maddie fell off the balcony onto a very soft landing on  the bushes below and immediately died...it's more probable she was abducted by aliens

      I don't believe she fell there. It is possible abductor Smithman was interrupted and quickly hid her in the bushes until the coast was clear. The only outside fall they probably investigated was onto the steps but Eddie/Keela should have found any trace of death evidence there. And MG said he wanted to further investigate the garden area so I don't know if that was done. Broken branches were collected from the flower bed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 11:18:10 AM
      A court of law decides 'not guilty or guilty' dave.

      It's not up to the police.

      so no one decides innocence...

      the police decide who to investigate...without investigation no evidence...no evidence no court case..

      so the police decide who to investigate...who they believe and therefore who goes to court...you would have to agree
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 30, 2015, 11:20:50 AM
      so no one decides innocence...

      the police decide who to investigate...without investigation no evidence...no evidence no court case..

      so the police decide who to investigate...who they believe and therefore who goes to court...you would have to agree

      What are you on about innocence dave ?

      The assumption is a person is not guilty, unless deemed guilty by a jury, or a magistrate(s).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on August 30, 2015, 11:29:41 AM
      we don't have every detail so you can make up anything you like...but that's all it is...make believe

      I'm looking at the evidence we do have, not making things up at all. I leave that to others whose flights of fancy take them to some amazing places.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 11:29:46 AM
      What are you on about innocence dave ?

      The assumption is a person is not guilty, unless deemed guilty by a jury, or a magistrate(s).

      its up to the police who they gather evidence against and present it to the CPS.....if the police believe the mccanns are innocent...as they seem to do...then they have no evidence to take to the CPS
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 30, 2015, 11:35:40 AM
      its up to the police who they gather evidence against and present it to the CPS.....if the police believe the mccanns are innocent...as they seem to do...then they have no evidence to take to the CPS

      They appear to have no evidence of anything, other than belief.

      Besides dave, the crime occurred in Portugal.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 11:47:56 AM
      They appear to have no evidence of anything, other than belief.

      Besides dave, the crime occurred in Portugal.

      if the mccanns lied then fraud occurred in the UK...it's down to whether SY believe the McCanns or not and what evidence they have against them. Sy are investigating a stranger abduction so they believe the McCanns and they are the experts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 11:51:02 AM
      I'm looking at the evidence we do have, not making things up at all. I leave that to others whose flights of fancy take them to some amazing places.

      you have just admitted to speculation...if you do not know exactly where everyone was at every specific time then your timeline is made up
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 30, 2015, 11:52:47 AM
      if the mccanns lied then fraud occurred in the UK...it's down to whether SY believe the McCanns or not and what evidence they have against them. Sy are investigating a stranger abduction so they believe the McCanns and they are the experts

      That first part I agree with.

      Now as regards the police, the PJ believed the parents were involved.  Now what makes SY right and the PJ wrong ?

      Tell me one thing sincerely, do you think this case will ever be solved ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 12:05:35 PM
      That first part I agree with.

      Now as regards the police, the PJ believed the parents were involved.  Now what makes SY right and the PJ wrong ?

      Tell me one thing sincerely, do you think this case will ever be solved ?

      the pj suspected the mccanns because they did not understand the evidence....they made a cock up which they admitted in the archiving report...now the evidence is understood the mccanns are not suspects...

      probably the only chance there is of solving the case rests with SY....if they have found nothing...then I think the case will not be solved...we just do not know yet
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 30, 2015, 12:08:36 PM
      the pj suspected the mccanns because they did not understand the evidence....they made a cock up which they admitted in the archiving report...now the evidence is understood the mccanns are not suspects...

      probably the only chance there is of solving the case rests with SY....if they have found nothing...then I think the case will not be solved...we just do not know yet

      The PJ suspected the mccanns for a variety of reasons.

      No one has been charged with anything.

      SY found nothing in Portugal.

      The case remains at ground zero.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 12:47:02 PM
      The PJ suspected the mccanns for a variety of reasons.

      No one has been charged with anything.

      SY found nothing in Portugal.

      The case remains at ground zero.

      the evidence against the mccanns was all discounted in the archiving report...you don't have a clue what SY have found.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on August 30, 2015, 01:43:58 PM
      the evidence against the mccanns was all discounted in the archiving report...you don't have a clue what SY have found.

      Well they haven't found Madeleine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 30, 2015, 02:52:08 PM
      No I meant shortly before 10 Eleanor. We have no independent witness to Gerry's whereabouts after 9.15. Madeleine's name is heard being expressed quietly sometime around 9.30 which could have been Gerry searching for her and having found her in the flowerbed takes her to the bedroom where he considers what to do next. The sofa alert, I believe, was to historic blood.
      Just commenting on "The sofa alert, I believe, was to historic blood."
      Yes it is possible it is historic IMO.
      Probably during construction the tiler got a small cut while cutting a tile.
      A few drops of blood dripped onto the cement then tiles were laid on the cement.
      What year was this block built?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 30, 2015, 03:04:43 PM
      "The sofa alert, I believe, was to historic blood."
      Yes it is possible it is historic IMO.
      Probably during construction the tiler got a small cut while cutting a tile.
      A few drops of blood dripped onto the cement then tiles were laid on the cement.
      What year was this block built?

      I agree.  Chipped pieces of tiles are lethal.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: faithlilly on August 30, 2015, 03:09:02 PM
      I agree.  Chipped pieces of tiles are lethal.

      Absolutely. Which just leaves Eddie's single alert in the bedroom to explain.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 30, 2015, 03:10:04 PM
      you have just admitted to speculation...if you do not know exactly where everyone was at every specific time then your timeline is made up
      That is bad news for the professors in the History Department.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 30, 2015, 03:15:06 PM
      Just commenting on "The sofa alert, I believe, was to historic blood."
      Yes it is possible it is historic IMO.
      Probably during construction the tiler got a small cut while cutting a tile.
      A few drops of blood dripped onto the cement then tiles were laid on the cement.
      What year was this block built?

      Not sure. Mid- to late- '80s?

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1052055/Holiday-apartment-Madeleine-McCann-went-missing-goes-sale-250-000.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 30, 2015, 03:31:26 PM
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
      PJ forensics of the tiles and cement.
      Then sent to a UK lab.
      Do we have a link for the tile cement results from UK lab?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 30, 2015, 03:40:00 PM
      Not sure. Mid- to late- '80s?

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1052055/Holiday-apartment-Madeleine-McCann-went-missing-goes-sale-250-000.html
      Thanks. Found an advert says the similar block 4 was built 1991.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 30, 2015, 03:45:25 PM
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
      PJ forensics of the tiles and cement.
      Then sent to a UK lab.
      Do we have a link for the tile cement results from UK lab?

      A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material on the swab (3A) from the apartment floor. An attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material on the wet swab (3B) from the same area was unsuccessful in that no profile was obtained.

      (Will add more in an edit)

      A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material recovered from the edges of tile 2 286/2007-CRL(2) from the apartment floor. An attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material recovered from a further area on tile 2 and two areas on tile 3 (286/2007-CRL(3) were unsuccessful in that no profiles were obtained.

      (And more to follow) ......

      This is the meat, I think:

      286/2007-CRL (15) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles
      The attempt to obtain a result through LCN from any cellular material that may have been in these fragments was unfruitful, given that no profile was obtained, possibly due to the absence of sufficient good quality DNA.

      286/2007-CRL (16) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 1
      A DNA profile that did not match any [of the five members] of the McCann family was obtained through LCN from cellular material recovered in that area.

      286/2007-CRL (17) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 2
      A DNA profile that appeared to be from at least two sources was obtained through LCN from cellular material recovered in that area. In my opinion, the major part of the profile matched that of Lino Henriques. Breaking [departing] from the principle, for it to have had a DNA contribution from Lino Henriques then the remaining information in the smaller part of the result is too meagre to permit a meaningful interpretation.

      286/2007-CRL (18) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 3
      The attempt to obtain a result through LCN from any cellular material that may have been in these fragments was unfruitful, given that no profile was obtained, possibly due to the absence of sufficient good quality DNA.

      FSS-GF-679 Emissao 2, Pagina 14

      286/2007-CRL (19) Cement-glue [grouting] between the floor tiles identified as number 4
      The attempt to obtain a result through LCN from any cellular material that may have been in these fragments was unfruitful, given that no profile was obtained, possibly due to the absence of sufficient good quality DNA.

      286/2007-CRL (20) Fragments of floor tile and grouting
      The attempt to obtain a result through LCN from any cellular material that may have been in these fragments was unfruitful, given that no profile was obtained, possibly due to the absence of sufficient good quality DNA.


      That's it ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 30, 2015, 04:04:33 PM
      A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material on the swab (3A) from the apartment floor. An attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material on the wet swab (3B) from the same area was unsuccessful in that no profile was obtained.

      (Will add more in an edit)

      A weak incomplete DNA result which consisted of only a few unconfirmed DNA components was obtained from cellular material recovered from the edges of tile 2 286/2007-CRL(2) from the apartment floor. An attempt to obtain a DNA profile from any cellular material recovered from a further area on tile 2 and two areas on tile 3 (286/2007-CRL(3) were unsuccessful in that no profiles were obtained.

      (And more to follow) ......
      We can't tell which of the tile or cement samples was the blood Keela alerted to.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 30, 2015, 04:12:03 PM
      We can't tell which of the tile or cement samples was the blood Keela alerted to.

      Everything forwarded to the lab was alerted to by Keela.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 30, 2015, 04:13:39 PM
      We can't tell which of the tile or cement samples was the blood Keela alerted to.

      All of it, probably.  Keela can't tell he difference.  But no DNA from any of The McCanns.  Probably the tile layer or the tile lifter or both.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 30, 2015, 04:22:07 PM
      We can't tell which of the tile or cement samples was the blood Keela alerted to.

      Madeleine's name features just once in John Lowe's report:

      An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3a). The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive; it is not possible attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.


      It doesn't say whereabouts in the holiday apartment* that was taken from.

      Edited in accordance with Carana's post below.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 30, 2015, 04:35:11 PM
      Mr Amaral's theory (add interviews to book) its timeline IMO allows only a few minutes from his timing of hypothetical discovery to his timing of exit from apartment. You could say it is one of several ways to explain sofa but it makes no reason for cupboard or garden and so it doesn't work IMO.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 30, 2015, 04:46:20 PM
      so no one decides innocence...

      the police decide who to investigate...without investigation no evidence...no evidence no court case..

      so the police decide who to investigate...who they believe and therefore who goes to court...you would have to agree

      Stephen is correct. One cannot be declared innocent, because the presumption is that one is innocent.

      The role of the police is to investigate, not to decide upon guilt or innocence.   
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 30, 2015, 04:58:49 PM
      Madeleine's name features just once in John Lowe's report:

      An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3a). The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive; it is not possible attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.


      It doesn't say whereabouts in the villa that was taken from.

      It says from the apartment floor (living room obviously)
      See sentence immediately before the very first thing you quoted in the Lowe report.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 05:45:51 PM
      Stephen is correct. One cannot be declared innocent, because the presumption is that one is innocent.

      The role of the police is to investigate, not to decide upon guilt or innocence.   

      you are not correct...i have already said no one decides innocence on the post you commented on....however the police do not investigate those they THINK are innocent and therefore those people never go to court...hence to a certain extent it is what the police BELIEVE that shapes a case ...not the court...

      I hope that clarifies the matter for you.


      i have made this point re innocence before because in many cases...the mccanns are one....it is totally impossible for suspects to prove their innocence...even if they are found not guilty by a court
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 05:50:43 PM
      Stephen is correct. One cannot be declared innocent, because the presumption is that one is innocent.

      The role of the police is to investigate, not to decide upon guilt or innocence.   

      Although it is not the police role to decide guilt or innocence that is exactly what they often do. in the mccanns case the police decided that the  McCanns were guilty and steered the investigation in taht direction..

      In the Colin Stagg case again the police decided Stagg was guilty and did exactly the same
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on August 30, 2015, 06:02:37 PM
      Although it is not the police role to decide guilt or innocence that is exactly what they often do. in the mccanns case the police decided that the  McCanns were guilty and steered the investigation in taht direction..

      In the Colin Stagg case again the police decided Stagg was guilty and did exactly the same

      Davel -you need to consider the respective roles of the police, the prosecutor and the court.

      In very simple terms: 

      The police - their role is to investigate, to gather evidence and put together a case -to "solve" the crime to the best of their ability.

      The prosecutor - in England this is CPS, who decide on the strength of the case, the chance of a conviction and decide whether to bring the matter to trial.

      The court - it's role is to "try" the case, and weigh the case presented by the prosecution and the defense, and to decide on a verdict of "guilty" or "not guilty".

       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 06:16:40 PM
      Davel -you need to consider the respective roles of the police, the prosecutor and the court.

      In very simple terms: 

      The police - their role is to investigate, to gather evidence and put together a case -to "solve" the crime to the best of their ability.

      The prosecutor - in England this is CPS, who decide on the strength of the case, the chance of a conviction and decide whether to bring the matter to trial.

      The court - it's role is to "try" the case, and weigh the case presented by the prosecution and the defense, and to decide on a verdict of "guilty" or "not guilty".

      What you have posted is very basic.......you have now admitted that the police  try to solve the crime...the police decide who they think is guilty and build a case against them which in the UK is placed before the CPS. If the police decide in their opinion someone is innocent then investigation into that person stops and nothing is presented to the CPS.

      So in the McCanns case...SY interview the parents...if they believe they are telling the truth...they are no longer suspects and no longer investigated...therefore we can assume SY believe the parents account
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 06:19:41 PM
      We are told that in this sort of case best police practice is to investigate the parents first and then rule them in or out.....the police make that decision
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 30, 2015, 06:25:36 PM
      We are told that in this sort of case best police practice is to investigate the parents first and then rule them in or out.....the police make that decision

      They would look at the last person who saw the missing person first so in this case it would be Gerry.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 30, 2015, 06:28:06 PM
      They would look at the last person who saw the missing person first so in this case it would be Gerry.

      they would certainly look at this person...interview them and make a judgement...that's what I am saying...the police make a judgement
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 30, 2015, 06:38:33 PM
      they would certainly look at this person...interview them and make a judgement...that's what I am saying...the police make a judgement

      You can't make a judgement on one interview when in subsequent interviews the story changes or more evidence is gathered which changes it like the dog alerts or a sighting.

      A tiler caused the dogs to alert  8(>(( Yeah and only in the apartment where the girl went missing from. You will have to do better than that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 30, 2015, 06:38:49 PM
      We are told that in this sort of case best police practice is to investigate the parents first and then rule them in or out.....the police make that decision
      As Redwood said
      "take everything back to the beginning and then reanalyse and reassess everything"
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 30, 2015, 06:52:06 PM
      Any chance of getting back on topic?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 30, 2015, 06:59:46 PM
      You can't make a judgement on one interview when in subsequent interviews the story changes or more evidence is gathered which changes it like the dog alerts or a sighting.

      A tiler caused the dogs to alert  8(>(( Yeah and only in the apartment where the girl went missing from. You will have to do better than that.

      If a cadaver was placed temporarily in the wardrobe, as Amaral stated, why didn't the dog later indicate in the gym inspection to all the clothes or the suitcase that were in the pile of laundry on the 3rd?
      If a cadaver wasn't placed in the wardrobe, how can the apparent cadaver scent be accounted for? None of the clothing in there was being worn after 8.30pm.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 30, 2015, 07:12:24 PM
      If a cadaver was placed temporarily in the wardrobe, as Amaral stated, why didn't the dog later indicate in the gym inspection to all the clothes or the suitcase that were in the pile of laundry on the 3rd?
      If a cadaver wasn't placed in the wardrobe, how can the apparent cadaver scent be accounted for? None of the clothing in there was being worn after 8.30pm.

      The cadaver may have been on the bottom shelf and not touching any clothes. You need to be in contact with a cadaver to be contaminated or touch something like a diary or sit down on a sofa with contaminated clothes probably like Adrian Prout did.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 30, 2015, 07:21:16 PM
      If a cadaver was placed temporarily in the wardrobe, as Amaral stated, why didn't the dog later indicate in the gym inspection to all the clothes or the suitcase that were in the pile of laundry on the 3rd?
      (snip)
      In that hypothetical situation you would have direct contact with only a few of the items on the same shelf, and no direct contact with any items on different shelves.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 30, 2015, 07:22:39 PM
      The cadaver may have been on the bottom shelf and not touching any clothes. You need to be in contact with a cadaver to be contaminated or touch something like a diary or sit down on a sofa with contaminated clothes probably like Adrian Prout did.

      I'm not sure that is strictly true. Going on what Mr Grime said, the scent can move from it's original position and settle elsewhere, decomposition gases are physical things, they can end up contaminating items they haven't been in contact with in that way?

      Also I don't know why anyone thinks anyone would have put a body in the wardrobe in any case.

      ?

      To hide it? From who?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on August 30, 2015, 07:36:26 PM
      Although it is not the police role to decide guilt or innocence that is exactly what they often do. in the mccanns case the police decided that the  McCanns were guilty and steered the investigation in taht direction..

      In the Colin Stagg case again the police decided Stagg was guilty and did exactly the same

      ...and you now think that the police have decided that the McCanns are innocent and are steering the investigation in another direction.

      No difference really.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 30, 2015, 07:38:00 PM
      There was neither cadaver nor cadaver scent detected in the 2007/8 (shelved) enquiry ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 30, 2015, 07:40:09 PM
      There was neither cadaver nor cadaver scent detected in the 2007/8 (shelved) enquiry ....

      When was this proved? A cite would be very helpful here.

      Edited to change disproved to proved......
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 30, 2015, 08:49:12 PM
      Precisely Mercury it would be a bizarre exercise in pointlessness to hide something from noone.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 30, 2015, 11:28:32 PM
      Precisely Mercury it would be a bizarre exercise in pointlessness to hide something from noone.

      the only people possibly looking and finding a body would be the parents their children and other checkers, police are ruled out here

      It's still a bit on the fringe movement though
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 30, 2015, 11:51:12 PM
      Precisely Mercury it would be a bizarre exercise in pointlessness to hide something from noone.

      If you had a corpse in your house you may hide it away and not leave it on the sofa to admire.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 12:12:20 AM
      If you had a corpse in your house you may hide it away and not leave it on the sofa to admire.
      that's a point I suppose....but still PF, stick it in the wardrobe?

      I just c ant picture Gerry or Kate walking into their flat finding their daughter dead and sticking her in the wardrobe....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 31, 2015, 12:14:15 AM
      that's a point I suppose....but still PF, stick it in the wardrobe?

      I just c ant picture Gerry or Kate walking into their flat finding their daughter dead and sticking her in the wardrobe....

      That depends on whether they wanted anybody to know about it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 12:19:06 AM
      That depends on whether they wanted anybody to know about it.
      If there WAS a corpse the scent could have settled in the wardrobe without it being there ever....and as I posted earlier this evening the scent could have contaminated some clothes if it did even without touching them

      it is a conundrum isn't it....but not a conundrum to the point some have pulled it in the most ridiculous ways such as remnant scent of blood, saliva, BO etc....the dog question will NEVER go away because it has NOT been answered..many have tried and failed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 12:31:07 AM
      That depends on whether they wanted anybody to know about it.

      Bung her in the wardrobe & run to the Tapas Bar screaming for help......yes, that sounds like a plan. Only in the world of a deluded detective.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 01:26:14 AM
      Bung her in the wardrobe & run to the Tapas Bar screaming for help......yes, that sounds like a plan. Only in the world of a deluded detective.
      Did Amaral say that? Cite then!!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on August 31, 2015, 07:28:47 AM
      Bung her in the wardrobe & run to the Tapas Bar screaming for help......yes, that sounds like a plan. Only in the world of a deluded detective.

      That didn't happen but you do need a plan  8(>((
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 31, 2015, 01:06:46 PM
      Madeleine's name features just once in John Lowe's report:

      An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab (286A/2007 CRL 3a). The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive; it is not possible attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.


      It doesn't say whereabouts in the villa that was taken from.

      Don't you mean 5A, not "villa"?

      It appears to be from one of the tiles behind the sofa.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/V/08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2192_a.jpg

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3216.jpg

      and

      Conclusions:
      On 4 August there were collected at [the above address]:
      - Three (3) spots from the floor, numbered as trace evidence 1 to 3;
      - Ten (10) spots from the wall, numbered as trace evidence 4 to 13;
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 01:29:31 PM
      Don't you mean 5A, not "villa"?

      It appears to be from one of the tiles behind the sofa.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/V/08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2192_a.jpg

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3216.jpg

      and

      Conclusions:
      On 4 August there were collected at [the above address]:
      - Three (3) spots from the floor, numbered as trace evidence 1 to 3;
      - Ten (10) spots from the wall, numbered as trace evidence 4 to 13;
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
      "286A/2007 CRL 3a" (see post above).
      They did a dry swab and a wet swab of each spot, labelled a and b.
      "3a" possibly means it is the dry swab of spot 3 on the lounge floor before the tiles were taken up???
      (ETA this is probably wrong)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 31, 2015, 01:38:14 PM
      If there WAS a corpse the scent could have settled in the wardrobe without it being there ever....and as I posted earlier this evening the scent could have contaminated some clothes if it did even without touching them

      it is a conundrum isn't it....but not a conundrum to the point some have pulled it in the most ridiculous ways such as remnant scent of blood, saliva, BO etc....the dog question will NEVER go away because it has NOT been answered..many have tried and failed

      Are you referring to me when you say blood is a ridiculous as a remnant scent?    I remind you it was a forensic scientist who said that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 01:47:22 PM
      What we need is a photo of this whole area of tiles (with spots labelled) before the tiles were taken up
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 31, 2015, 01:57:02 PM
      Don't you mean 5A, not "villa"?

      It appears to be from one of the tiles behind the sofa.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/V/08_VOLUME_VIIIa_Page_2192_a.jpg

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3216.jpg

      and

      Conclusions:
      On 4 August there were collected at [the above address]:
      - Three (3) spots from the floor, numbered as trace evidence 1 to 3;
      - Ten (10) spots from the wall, numbered as trace evidence 4 to 13;
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm

      Thank you.  Yes of course I do.  I will edit my post.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on August 31, 2015, 02:03:16 PM
      Bung her in the wardrobe & run to the Tapas Bar screaming for help......yes, that sounds like a plan. Only in the world of a deluded detective.

      If I wrote a deluded detective story, I WOULD  have the suspects placing the body in a wardrobe away from prying eyes but only if the 'accidental death' happened on the 2/3 rd and I was waiting for a friend to bring along a car to transport it elsewhere. But then that would also leave the car vulnerable  to cadaver scent wouldn't it? Fortunately I'm no writer of detective stories!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 02:49:09 PM
      I think the whole accident scenario is impossible for lots of reasons.....as regards moving the body...why not move the body before  raising the alarm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 31, 2015, 02:57:37 PM
      What we need is a photo of this whole area of tiles (with spots labelled) before the tiles were taken up

      There are photos, but of individual tiles. Not 100% certain, but it would seem likely (IMO), in context. that the photos were taken prior to having been taken up.

      How, otherwise, could the spots of interest have been assigned markers?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on August 31, 2015, 02:58:33 PM
      I think the whole accident scenario is impossible for lots of reasons.....as regards moving the body...why not move the body before  raising the alarm
      If you read my post  you'll see that is exactly what my suspects do   in my little detective novel. The alarm  is raised on the evening of the 3rd. The body is transported during the afternoon of the 3rd. After all the 'accident' has  in reality happened on the 2/3 rd.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 31, 2015, 02:58:38 PM
      If I wrote a deluded detective story, I WOULD  have the suspects placing the body in a wardrobe away from prying eyes but only if the 'accidental death' happened on the 2/3 rd and I was waiting for a friend to bring along a car to transport it elsewhere. But then that would also leave the car vulnerable  to cadaver scent wouldn't it? Fortunately I'm no writer of detective stories!


      Thank you Carol.
      We can all see a different story unfold in this case and can only learn from those of others.
      I find it extremely difficult, however to believe that a friend, who happened to be in Portugal would involve themselves, in a crime, by  removing a cadaver from the apartment.
      Then again stranger things have happened.

      There is no evidence to support thoughts of the parents being involved...............In fact, there is no evidence of anything really. Lets hope that the present investigations will reveal something of worth.

      What is your thoughts on the Dogs alerts?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 03:03:33 PM
      There are photos, but of individual tiles. Not 100% certain, but it would seem likely (IMO), in context. that the photos were taken prior to having been taken up.

      How, otherwise, could the spots of interest have been assigned markers?
      Yes before taking the tiles up they did close up labelled photos of individual tiles but I can't find photo showing them all at once.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: LagosBen on August 31, 2015, 03:06:49 PM
      Sorry if I've posted this before.

      Am I the only one who finds the constant dog "alert" discussions mad?

      I say this maybe due to naivety, but, surely if a corpse had been in that apartment or anywhere close to either McCann or their clothes etc, the dogs would have gone on alert immediately and not have to be coaxed into mild alerts if you can call them that?

      Martin Grime himself said that without corroboration (of which there was none) the alerts are meaningless (or words to that effect).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 03:11:18 PM
      If you read my post  you'll see that is exactly what my suspects do   in my little detective novel. The alarm  is raised on the evening of the 3rd. The body is transported during the afternoon of the 3rd. After all the 'accident' has  in reality happened on the 2/3 rd.

      why cover up an accident if it happened earlier...there's no neglect
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 31, 2015, 03:16:49 PM
      There are photos, but of individual tiles. Not 100% certain, but it would seem likely (IMO), in context. that the photos were taken prior to having been taken up.

      How, otherwise, could the spots of interest have been assigned markers?

      I can't find a photo of the floor tiles altogether either. I expect you have already viewed this. Think I found it. 2nd link

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/BLOOD.htm
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_EDDIE-KEELA.htm

      ETA Link
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 31, 2015, 03:25:53 PM
      Yes before taking the tiles up they did close up labelled photos of individual tiles but I can't find photo showing them all at once.

      (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3199_small.jpg)

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_EDDIE-KEELA.htm

      ETA Photo
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on August 31, 2015, 03:35:47 PM
      why cover up an accident if it happened earlier...there's no neglect

      There most certainly IS  neglect if the accident happens whilst you're out enjoying yourself with your friends!!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 03:39:30 PM
      There most certainly IS  neglect if the accident happens whilst you're out enjoying yourself with your friends!!

      so when did it happen
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on August 31, 2015, 03:44:42 PM
      Am I the only one who finds the constant dog "alert" discussions mad?

      I say this maybe due to naivety, but, surely if a corpse had been in that apartment or anywhere close to either McCann or their clothes etc, the dogs would have gone on alert immediately and not have to be coaxed into mild alerts if you can call them that?

      Martin Grime himself said that without corroboration (of which there was none) the alerts are meaningless (or words to that effect).




      Coaxed into mild alerts? Some might agree with you but many wouldn't.  What you see is what you get with dog alerts. It's the way they are and it's  the way they work...................... very successfully I might add  .
      I'd have thought a missing child was corroboration enough ...........................a child that hasn't been seen since !
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 03:48:54 PM

      Coaxed into mild alerts? Some might agree with you but many wouldn't.  What you see is what you get with dog alerts. It's the way they are and it's  the way they work...................... very successfully I might add  .
      I'd have thought a missing child was corroboration enough ...........................a child that hasn't been seen since !

      not according to the PJ ...the dogs totally ignored things several times before "alerting"...that isn't the way I have seen any scent dogs working
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: LagosBen on August 31, 2015, 03:49:01 PM
      I thought that their training was thorough and their noses were very sensitive so no coaxing would be needed.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: LagosBen on August 31, 2015, 03:52:43 PM
      not according to the PJ ...the dogs totally ignored things several times before "alerting"...that isn't the way I have seen any scent dogs working

      Brings me back to this.

      "surely if a corpse had been in that apartment or anywhere close to either McCann or their clothes" -  the dogs would have reacted strongly.

      I don't believe there was a corpse. I believe the child was taken.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 04:03:25 PM
      Brings me back to this.

      "surely if a corpse had been in that apartment or anywhere close to either McCann or their clothes" -  the dogs would have reacted strongly.

      I don't believe there was a corpse. I believe the child was taken.

      I totally agree
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2015, 04:17:40 PM
      Brings me back to this.

      "surely if a corpse had been in that apartment or anywhere close to either McCann or their clothes" -  the dogs would have reacted strongly.

      I don't believe there was a corpse. I believe the child was taken.

      You are not alone.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on August 31, 2015, 04:27:50 PM
      I thought that their training was thorough and their noses were very sensitive so no coaxing would be needed.

      I've also  got lots of experts in my little book who know even more than the recognised professionals. Funny that!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 04:32:09 PM
      I've also  got lots of experts in my little book who know even more than the recognised professionals. Funny that!

      Im sorry to say I think you are slightly befuddled
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on August 31, 2015, 04:37:07 PM
      Im sorry to say I think you are slightly befuddled

      Well YOU would wouldn't you? I'm sorry to say I think YOU  are slightly biased.
      When the 'do it yourself experts'  think they know more than the recognised professionals I can't help but smile. ?{)(**
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 04:43:51 PM
      Well YOU would wouldn't you? I'm sorry to say I think YOU  are slightly biased.
      When the 'do it yourself experts'  think they know more than the recognised professionals I can't help but smile. ?{)(**

      Grime and Harrison are the experts and I see nothing in their statements that convinces me there was a cadaver in the apartment
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 05:24:09 PM
      Well YOU would wouldn't you? I'm sorry to say I think YOU  are slightly biased.
      When the 'do it yourself experts'  think they know more than the recognised professionals I can't help but smile. ?{)(**

      Perhaps an expert second opinion would have been useful. Sadly, to the best of my knowledge, no expert second opinion has been forthcoming from the world of EVRD trainers/handlers to support Grime's interpretation of his dogs' alerts in Luz.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 31, 2015, 05:27:32 PM
      Brings me back to this.

      "surely if a corpse had been in that apartment or anywhere close to either McCann or their clothes" -  the dogs would have reacted strongly.

      I don't believe there was a corpse. I believe the child was taken.

      You won't get an argument from me on that assessment which I think is spot on.  We also seem to be in accord with the present investigations being conducted by the PJ and SY.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 31, 2015, 05:41:07 PM
      If you read my post  you'll see that is exactly what my suspects do   in my little detective novel. The alarm  is raised on the evening of the 3rd. The body is transported during the afternoon of the 3rd. After all the 'accident' has  in reality happened on the 2/3 rd.

      Why, when, where and how? And then where?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on August 31, 2015, 05:55:15 PM
      Brings me back to this.

      "surely if a corpse had been in that apartment or anywhere close to either McCann or their clothes" -  the dogs would have reacted strongly.

      I don't believe there was a corpse. I believe the child was taken.

      Me too.   

      Welcome back Ben.  Hope you keep well.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 06:05:25 PM
      Brings me back to this.

      "surely if a corpse had been in that apartment or anywhere close to either McCann or their clothes" -  the dogs would have reacted strongly.

      I don't believe there was a corpse. I believe the child was taken.

      I agree - otherwise there would be no need for a scapegoat for the biggest muck-up on the planet.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 06:08:16 PM
      Are you referring to me when you say blood is a ridiculous as a remnant scent?    I remind you it was a forensic scientist who said that.

      No, I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the fact that AFAIAW cadaver dogs can alert to the remnant scent of decomposed human tissue after death, not the remnant scent of fluids from living people, which are not items used to train these dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: LagosBen on August 31, 2015, 06:28:35 PM
      Me too.   

      Welcome back Ben.  Hope you keep well.

      Thank you Sadie. I don't come in often as it seems to be the same convos over and over again. %£&)**#
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 31, 2015, 06:29:11 PM
      No, I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the fact that AFAIAW cadaver dogs can alert to the remnant scent of decomposed human tissue after death, not the remnant scent of fluids from living people, which are not items used to train these dogs.

      But that's part of what this never-ending argument is about.

      Eddie would alert to dried blood from a living person. Why? Because it was a decomposing human substance.

      There is nothing in the PJ files, nor from what I've read in the Jersey reports that would substantiate that Eddie wouldn't react to other decomposing fluids of a living person.

      What Grime HAS said is that KEELA wouldn't react to semen, urine or faeces unless blood was present.

      He never said anything of that nature about Eddie that I've seen.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: LagosBen on August 31, 2015, 06:30:23 PM
      I've also  got lots of experts in my little book who know even more than the recognised professionals. Funny that!

      Rather snarky reply.

      I happened to be stating the obvious and I never claimed it to be from an expert.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 06:35:39 PM
      But that's part of what this never-ending argument is about.

      Eddie would alert to dried blood from a living person. Why? Because it was a decomposing human substance.

      There is nothing in the PJ files, nor from what I've read in the Jersey reports that would substantiate that Eddie wouldn't react to other decomposing fluids of a living person.

      What Grime HAS said is that KEELA wouldn't react to semen, urine or faeces unless blood was present.

      He never said anything of that nature about Eddie that I've seen.

      I don't think Edddie does react to the remnant scent of dried blood as dried blood does not produce cadaver odour. He only reacts to the presence of dried blood
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on August 31, 2015, 06:41:02 PM
      Rather snarky reply.

      I happened to be stating the obvious and I never claimed it to be from an expert.

      It's not obvious to me . It's not obvious to Kate McCann either. When presented with the alerts on Cuddle Cat she immediately explained it  away by stating that she had previously taken  the child's toy to work with her and that it could have been contaminated there. I think to make such a statement (  which IMO is highly improbable )  she must have felt the dogs were on to something n'est-ce-pas?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2015, 06:46:04 PM
      It's not obvious to me . It's not obvious to Kate McCann either. When presented with the alerts on Cuddle Cat she immediately explained it  away by stating that she had previously taken  the child's toy to work with her and that it could have been contaminated there. I think to make such a statement (  which IMO is highly improbable )  she must have felt the dogs were on to something n'est-ce-pas?

      Do you have proof that Kate ever stated that she took CuddleCat to work with her, and that it must have been contaminated there?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: LagosBen on August 31, 2015, 06:46:25 PM
      It's not obvious to me . It's not obvious to Kate McCann either. When presented with the alerts on Cuddle Cat she immediately explained it  away by stating that she had previously taken  the child's toy to work with her and that it could have been contaminated there. I think to make such a statement (  which IMO is highly improbable )  she must have felt the dogs were on to something n'est-ce-pas?

      Nonsense.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 07:01:32 PM
      But that's part of what this never-ending argument is about.

      Eddie would alert to dried blood from a living person. Why? Because it was a decomposing human substance.

      There is nothing in the PJ files, nor from what I've read in the Jersey reports that would substantiate that Eddie wouldn't react to other decomposing fluids of a living person.

      What Grime HAS said is that KEELA wouldn't react to semen, urine or faeces unless blood was present.

      He never said anything of that nature about Eddie that I've seen.

      Check MG's rogatory statements. IMO he makes it clear the dog what the dog is trained on, and what he isn't trained on. IIRC you once suggested Eddie may have been reacting to sweat and shed skin cells on the cuddle toy....do you seriously believe if that were even possibly true he wouldn't have been barking at every spot he walked over? As you say, the never ending story.!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 31, 2015, 07:04:48 PM
      I don't think Edddie does react to the remnant scent of dried blood as dried blood does not produce cadaver odour. He only reacts to the presence of dried blood


      Again, Grime's response to that was somewhat vague. He did say that KEELA would only react if the physical trace of blood was present (even if only to molecular level, which couldn't be proven by forensic tests, etc.).

      Where has he stated that Eddie required the physical presence of blood in order to react?

      Grime made a somewhat ambiguous statement, which I'd posted just a few days ago...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 31, 2015, 07:11:53 PM
      I love the idea of Eddie only alerting to the presence of dried blood and not to its remnant scent.
      So how does he recognise it as dried blood? Answers on a post card to......................
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 31, 2015, 07:13:07 PM
      Check MG's rogatory statements. IMO he makes it clear the dog what the dog is trained on, and what he isn't trained on. IIRC you once suggested Eddie may have been reacting to sweat and shed skin cells on the cuddle toy....do you seriously believe if that were even possibly true he wouldn't have been barking at every spot he walked over? As you say, the never ending story.!

      Re sweat and skin cells...

      We all perspire. We all shed skin cells. In everyday life, we shower, we sweep, dust, whatever.

      But, explain to me the overwhelming pong of a broken limb in a cast. What do you think that that odour is due to? I'm not the only person commenting on the case who came to that conclusion as a possibility.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 31, 2015, 07:16:09 PM
      Thank you Sadie. I don't come in often as it seems to be the same convos over and over again. %£&)**#
      May I ask you if you were in the area at the time Madeleine disappeared?  I can appreciate that a 'local' would be getting a bit fed up by now, so I am curious.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 31, 2015, 07:16:24 PM
      Check MG's rogatory statements. IMO he makes it clear the dog what the dog is trained on, and what he isn't trained on. IIRC you once suggested Eddie may have been reacting to sweat and shed skin cells on the cuddle toy....do you seriously believe if that were even possibly true he wouldn't have been barking at every spot he walked over? As you say, the never ending story.!

      That would be true of course, Mercury. I do believe however that the dog has to be commanded to start working/searching.
      Looking at the films MG would clap his hands or say "Find".
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 07:18:16 PM
      I love the idea of Eddie only alerting to the presence of dried blood and not to its remnant scent.
      So how does he recognise it as dried blood? Answers on a post card to......................

      it won't take a post card...remnant scent is just what it says......scent where there is no blood remaining...
      I don't think he does for the following reason...
      keela only reacts to the physical presence of blood..we are told
      if Eddie can detect residual scent of blood when no blood remains then there would be times when Eddie could alert to residual scent of blood....but Keela does not alert as no blood remains. If that was true then it makes the alerts even more ridiculous...if that's possible..



      obviously the point being that a PROPER cadaver dog should NOT react to blood...cue Morse

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 07:21:15 PM
      Re sweat and skin cells...

      We all perspire. We all shed skin cells. In everyday life, we shower, we sweep, dust, whatever.

      But, explain to me the overwhelming pong of a broken limb in a cast. What do you think that that odour is due to? I'm not the only person commenting on the case who came to that conclusion as a possibility.

      The point is the cadaver dog trainer/handler does not give any of these spurious possibilities a single mention..sweat and skin cells! . If they were possibilities he would IMHO, but on the whole would make the whole science of using cadaver detection dogs a mockery and a waste of police time energy and money. Also he has never said the cadaver dog will react to remant scent of blood, saliva, scent, teeth...etc etc

      Ps Never smelt a broken limb in a cast, so cannot comment, and never heard of dogs used or trained to detect the misfortunes....or reported to have alerted to them

       @)(++(*

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 07:23:13 PM
      It's not obvious to me . It's not obvious to Kate McCann either. When presented with the alerts on Cuddle Cat she immediately explained it  away by stating that she had previously taken  the child's toy to work with her and that it could have been contaminated there. I think to make such a statement (  which IMO is highly improbable )  she must have felt the dogs were on to something n'est-ce-pas?

      there is no evidence that kate said that...what is more revealing is that when Grime was asked if he could confirm that the alert to cuddlecat was definitely an alert to cadaver ...he didn't
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 07:24:56 PM
      That would be true of course, Mercury. I do believe however that the dog has to be commanded to start working/searching.
      Looking at the films MG would clap his hands or say "Find".
      Yes, true, but in all his deployments he never once alerted anywhere else, in PDL, surely someone will have shed skin cells! or do they take more than five minutes to find?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 07:26:53 PM
      The point is the cadaver dog trainer/handler does not give any of these spurious possibilities a single mention..sweat and skin cells! . If they were possibilities he would IMHO, but on the whole would make the whole science of using cadaver detection dogs a mockery and a waste of police time energy and money. Also he has never said the cadaver dog will react to remant scent of blood, saliva, scent, teeth...etc etc

      Ps Never smelt a broken limb in a cast, so cannot comment, and never heard of dogs used or trained to detect the misfortunes....or reported to have alerted to them

       @)(++(*

      as I have said Eddie wasn't a properly trained cadaver dog because he had been trained to react to blood too
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 31, 2015, 07:31:16 PM
      That would be true of course, Mercury. I do believe however that the dog has to be commanded to start working/searching.
      Looking at the films MG would clap his hands or say "Find".

      So after the command to start working has been issued, what stops Eddie alerting to the shed skin cells which would still be on site?

      In work mode or not, those apparent alert trigger contaminants would still be present.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 07:35:56 PM
      as I have said Eddie wasn't a properly trained cadaver dog because he had been trained to react to blood too

      he was a very well trained EVRD, one EVRD among a few

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm

      Of  course you will have a cite that shows no properly trained cadaver dog reacts to blood or is also trained to do so, won't you?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 31, 2015, 07:41:50 PM
      So after the command to start working has been issued, what stops Eddie alerting to the shed skin cells which would still be on site?

      In work mode or not, those apparent alert trigger contaminants would still be present.

      I was not referring to skin cells etc as I have no idea if he alerts to them.

      I was talking about his general training, re: blood,cadaver and cadaver odour. He would have to know whether or not he was in work mode. Otherwise he would be constantly looking for the items he is trained to find. Sorry if I didn't make myself very clear.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 07:42:42 PM
      he was a very well trained EVRD, one EVRD among a few

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7263355.stm

      Of  course you will have a cite that shows no properly trained cadaver dog reacts to blood or is also trained to do so, won't you?

      I've read that best practice is that cadaver dog's should not alert to blood...the cite is somewhere on this thread...Morse, Grimes latest dog does not alert to blood. if you think about it , it makes perfect sense.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on August 31, 2015, 07:46:50 PM
      Search Asset Profile

      'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any environment or terrain. The initial training of the asset is conducted using pig as the subject matter for solid hides and human blood for fluid. The use of human remains for the purpose of training dogs in the U.K. is not acceptable at this point in time.
      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic35.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 31, 2015, 07:48:17 PM
      It's not obvious to me . It's not obvious to Kate McCann either. When presented with the alerts on Cuddle Cat she immediately explained it  away by stating that she had previously taken  the child's toy to work with her and that it could have been contaminated there. I think to make such a statement (  which IMO is highly improbable )  she must have felt the dogs were on to something n'est-ce-pas?

      I'm not going to bother asking you to waste your time looking for a cite to prove that ... for the simple reason there isn't one.  Dr Kate McCann neither said that she took CuddleCat to work ... nor did she say she had been in contact with six dead bodies at her work.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 07:51:26 PM
      I've read that best practice is that cadaver dog's should not alert to blood...the cite is somewhere on this thread...Morse, Grimes latest dog does not alert to blood. if you think about it , it makes perfect sense.

      If a blood dog is used in tandem maybe it does, as it would remove any doubt for some of the alerts, but not all, and may have been more helpful in Portugal overall.

      You have alerts given by Eddie where no blood was there....they have yet to be explained away
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 07:54:31 PM
      I'm not going to bother asking you to waste your time looking for a cite to prove that ... for the simple reason there isn't one.  Dr Kate McCann neither said that she took CuddleCat to work ... nor did she say she had been in contact with six dead bodies at her work.
      And you know this how?
      Unless you thnk/know the author of the Star of Madeleine (IIRC) completely fabricated this in his book?
      Just asking so that we can tick another myth off with proof it was a myth iyswim
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 07:57:14 PM
      If a blood dog is used in tandem maybe it does, as it would remove any doubt for some of the alerts, but not all, and may have been more helpful in Portugal overall.

      You have alerts given by Eddie where no blood was there....they have yet to be explained away

      they don't have to be explained away...they have to be confirmed...as Morse...Grime's new dog is not trained on blood it seems Grime agrees with me
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on August 31, 2015, 07:58:48 PM
      If a blood dog is used in tandem maybe it does, as it would remove any doubt for some of the alerts, but not all, and may have been more helpful in Portugal overall.

      You have alerts given by Eddie where no blood was there....they have yet to be explained away

      if Eddie alerts to remnant scent of blood then he would alert and keela would not
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2015, 07:59:00 PM
      And you know this how?
      Unless you thnk/know the author of the Star of Madeleine (IIRC) completely fabricated this in his book?
      Just asking so that we can tick another myth off with proof it was a myth iyswim

      It's a Myth.  Fabricated by Cristovao.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 31, 2015, 08:00:01 PM
      If a blood dog is used in tandem maybe it does, as it would remove any doubt for some of the alerts, but not all, and may have been more helpful in Portugal overall.

      You have alerts given by Eddie where no blood was there....they have yet to be explained away

      Not explained away but explained.

      Cuddle-cat: an error of omission, or commission?

      Clothing not alerted to in the villa, transported in bog-standard cardboard boxes to a gym and apparently alerted to.

      Which was right?

      No alert in the villa?

      Or alert in the gym?

      Should police dogs attending a crime scene both trample all over stuff they are tasked to inspect and (one dog) pick stuff up in its mouth?

      I'd be amazed if that is best practise ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 08:06:49 PM
      they don't have to be explained away...they have to be confirmed...as Morse...Grime's new dog is not trained on blood it seems Grime agrees with me

      Technically for a court of law as evidence they have to be confirmed somehow, but as I have said a million times, there is no confirmation for remnant cadaver scent
      Unconfirmed indications remain intelligence, as per Harrison's words

      Grime does not agree with you unless you speak to him.....and you report back
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 08:11:19 PM
      if Eddie alerts to remnant scent of blood then he would alert and keela would not

      But you don't think he does, so pointless post?
      And no, MG has never said he does either
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 08:13:01 PM
      It's a Myth.  Fabricated by Cristovao.

      And you know this how?
      if you cannot provide evidence or proof then what you say is as much a myth surely?

      Just for reference


      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic11923.html

      Chapter 8

      On the tv monitor, Eddie can be seen sniffing over Kate's clothing and marking that it had been in contact with a cadaver. The reactions of the dogs in the vehicle that had been used by Madeleine's parents can also be seen.

      - At the medical center where I work, in England, before we came on holidays, people died whom I had been in contact with... you must be forgetting that I am a doctor...

      - Yes you are - João Tavared replies - and the death rate at the medical center where you work twice a week is extremely high...

      It's true  - the arguido replies
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 08:18:11 PM
      Not explained away but explained.

      Cuddle-cat: an error of omission, or commission?

      Clothing not alerted to in the villa, transported in bog-standard cardboard boxes to a gym and apparently alerted to.

      Which was right?

      No alert in the villa?

      Or alert in the gym?

      Should police dogs attending a crime scene both trample all over stuff they are tasked to inspect and (one dog) pick stuff up in its mouth?

      I'd be amazed if that is best practise ...

      Apart from your own opinion, do you have any evidence that screening clothes is not done...then you have the parents bedroom and verandah alerts to "explain"
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on August 31, 2015, 08:21:52 PM
      That would be true of course, Mercury. I do believe however that the dog has to be commanded to start working/searching.
      Looking at the films MG would clap his hands or say "Find".

      I agree Anna,  or Eddie would be barking at anyone who carries a bloody tissue from cutting themselves or from having a nose bleed,  a child who could have cut itself falling over etc. etc.   The dog finds when commanded to.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2015, 08:22:17 PM
      And you know this how?
      if you cannot provide evidence or proof then what you say is as much a myth surely?

      Just for reference


      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic11923.html

      Chapter 8

      On the tv monitor, Eddie can be seen sniffing over Kate's clothing and marking that it had been in contact with a cadaver. The reactions of the dogs in the vehicle that had been used by Madeleine's parents can also be seen.

      - At the medical center where I work, in England, before we came on holidays, people died whom I had been in contact with... you must be forgetting that I am a doctor...

      - Yes you are - João Tavared replies - and the death rate at the medical center where you work twice a week is extremely high...

      It's true  - the arguido replies

      An extract from Cristovao's Book.  A complete fabrication.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 08:25:08 PM
      And you know this how?
      if you cannot provide evidence or proof then what you say is as much a myth surely?

      Just for reference


      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic11923.html

      Chapter 8

      On the tv monitor, Eddie can be seen sniffing over Kate's clothing and marking that it had been in contact with a cadaver. The reactions of the dogs in the vehicle that had been used by Madeleine's parents can also be seen.

      - At the medical center where I work, in England, before we came on holidays, people died whom I had been in contact with... you must be forgetting that I am a doctor...

      - Yes you are - João Tavared replies - and the death rate at the medical center where you work twice a week is extremely high...

      It's true  - the arguido replies


      PPC did not work on the investigation & his book was released as fiction well before the case was shelved.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 31, 2015, 08:26:11 PM
      Apart from your own opinion, do you have any evidence that screening clothes is not done...then you have the parents bedroom and verandah alerts to "explain"

      Everything is explained by inconsistent results which does not enable us to draw any inference whatever from dog reactions.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 31, 2015, 08:32:08 PM
      And you know this how?
      if you cannot provide evidence or proof then what you say is as much a myth surely?

      Just for reference


      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic11923.html

      Chapter 8

      On the tv monitor, Eddie can be seen sniffing over Kate's clothing and marking that it had been in contact with a cadaver. The reactions of the dogs in the vehicle that had been used by Madeleine's parents can also be seen.

      - At the medical center where I work, in England, before we came on holidays, people died whom I had been in contact with... you must be forgetting that I am a doctor...

      - Yes you are - João Tavared replies - and the death rate at the medical center where you work twice a week is extremely high...

      It's true  - the arguido replies

      Hmmm ... so what other of the 48 questions did the arguida answer? 

      You have posted complete and utter falsehood here and the sad thing is you cannot fail to know that is exactly what it is.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 31, 2015, 08:36:07 PM
      Apart from your own opinion, do you have any evidence that screening clothes is not done...then you have the parents bedroom and verandah alerts to "explain"

      I think, where you may be confused, is that I said there was no chance of screening of clothing revealing anything of worth to the enquiry.

      That is because the clothes had been in common circulation for fully 3 months after the crime.

      So what could they have found?

      Spots of Madeleine's blood?

      And if they had, so what?  Madeleine sat on mummy's knee or Daddy's knee and has a nose bleed or other minor abrasion.  Blood transfers to clothing.

      What would that prove?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on August 31, 2015, 08:44:13 PM
      And you know this how?
      if you cannot provide evidence or proof then what you say is as much a myth surely?

      Just for reference


      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic11923.html

      Chapter 8

      On the tv monitor, Eddie can be seen sniffing over Kate's clothing and marking that it had been in contact with a cadaver. The reactions of the dogs in the vehicle that had been used by Madeleine's parents can also be seen.

      - At the medical center where I work, in England, before we came on holidays, people died whom I had been in contact with... you must be forgetting that I am a doctor...

      - Yes you are - João Tavared replies - and the death rate at the medical center where you work twice a week is extremely high...

      It's true  - the arguido replies

      Mercury, that's from Cristovão's "novel"...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 31, 2015, 08:48:32 PM
      Not explained away but explained.

      Cuddle-cat: an error of omission, or commission?

      Clothing not alerted to in the villa, transported in bog-standard cardboard boxes to a gym and apparently alerted to.

      Which was right?

      No alert in the villa?

      Or alert in the gym?

      Should police dogs attending a crime scene both trample all over stuff they are tasked to inspect and (one dog) pick stuff up in its mouth?

      I'd be amazed if that is best practise ...



      At the villa, did the dogs have access to the clothing samples packed in boxes for inspection at the gym?

      The packing of clothes seems to have taken place before the dogs arrived.

      It seems unclear and unconfirmed that the dog alerted to the same clothing in the gym which had been previously ignored in the villa.



      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 31, 2015, 08:51:01 PM
      I agree Anna,  or Eddie would be barking at anyone who carries a bloody tissue from cutting themselves or from having a nose bleed,  a child who could have cut itself falling over etc. etc.   The dog finds when commanded to.

      Does the contamination result of nose-bleeds, bloody tissues and children falling over disappear then after the dog has been commanded to search?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on August 31, 2015, 08:59:15 PM


      At the villa, did the dogs have access to the clothing samples packed in boxes for inspection at the gym?

      The packing of clothes seems to have taken place before the dogs arrived.

      It seems unclear and unconfirmed that the dog alerted to the same clothing in the gym which had been previously ignored in the villa.



      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm

      Yes:

      Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.

      Clothing laid out all over the villa, but not alerted to, was packed into cardboard boxes and transported to the gym so the dogs could have a second stab ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on August 31, 2015, 09:05:49 PM
      Does the contamination result of nose-bleeds, bloody tissues and children falling over disappear then after the dog has been commanded to search?

      Isn't the point of the blood dog to check for areas the original CSI team were unable to detect, or missed, using accepted scientific tests?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 09:40:40 PM
      Quote from: carana
      Mercury, that's from Cristovão's "novel"...

      Are you confusing him with the novel written by Marcos Correia, the girls from the stars?

      If you read the introduction, it is clear it is not, as in the other example, a "novel"

      Quote from: misty
      PPC did not work on the investigation & his book was released as fiction well before the case was shelved.

      I know he did not, but there is nothing to say he was not told certain thngs, and again, please show where it was released as fiction...

      Quote from: eleanor


      An extract from Cristovao's Book.  A complete fabrication.

      I already asked you for evidence or proof that it was such, none forthcoming??!

      Quote from: Brietta

      Hmmm ... so what other of the 48 questions did the arguida answer? 

      You have posted complete and utter falsehood here and the sad thing is you cannot fail to know that is exactly what it is.
      Who mentioned the 48 questions? KM was interviewed for hours before that questioning
      What I have posted is quotes from a source, what is actually sad is your deriding my attempt to challenge a claim on here that you made...with some kind of authority....well, show us the proof that Kate McCann never uttered these words, a simple denial from her will also do.....I would have thought the attempt to clear up "myths" would be applauded by you, but seems you are satisfied to just declare without back up?

      Hmmmm

      It may well be it was "fabricated"...but does the "say so" of a few internet posters with nothing to back up their belief given, just prove it? Why  the "horrendous"  reaction in any case? Is it beyond the realms of possibility KM said words to that effect? Her sister in law said any cadaver scent may have come from work as they were both doctors.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 09:46:38 PM
      Everything is explained by inconsistent results which does not enable us to draw any inference whatever from dog reactions.
      There was nothing inconsistent about alerts to the parents bedroom or verandah

      inferences aside, no explanation has been given which suffices
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on August 31, 2015, 09:47:26 PM
      Are you confusing him with the novel written by Marcos Correia, the girls from the stars?

      If you read the introduction, it is clear it is not, as in the other example, a "novel"

      I know he did not, but there is nothing to say he was not told certain thngs, and again, please show where it was released as fiction...

      I already asked you for evidence or proof that it was such, none forthcoming??!
      Who mentioned the 48 questions? KM was interviewed for hours before that questioning
      What I have posted is quotes from a source, what is actually sad is your deriding my attempt to challenge a claim on here that you made...with some kind of authority....well, show us the proof that Kate McCann never uttered these words, a simple denial from her will also do.....I would have thought the attempt to clear up "myths" would be applauded by you, but seems you are satisfied to just declare without back up?

      Hmmmm

      It may well be it was "fabricated"...but does the "say so" of a few internet posters with nothing to back up their belief given, just prove it? Why  the "horrendous"  reaction in any case? Is it beyond the realms of possibility KM said words to that effect? Her sister in law said any cadaver scent may have come from work as they were both doctors.

      You posted up the quote from Cristovao's Book.  You must know where it came from.

      Never has such a conversation appeared anywhere in The Files.

      It is a fabrication, and stupid with it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 09:52:52 PM
      You posted up the quote from Cristovao's Book.  You must know where it came from.

      Never has such a conversation appeared anywhere in The Files.

      It is a fabrication, and stupid with it.

      yes, I did, and I know where it came from, the book!
      the files do NOT contain the interrogation of KM before her arguido statements
      You still have to give evidence it is a fabrication...or you can refuse to and say, well, I just think that
      Finally, no it's not stupid, unless you think her sister in law is stupid too, then again, yeah, KM was a GP not a mortuary technician..hmmmm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on August 31, 2015, 10:04:20 PM
      KM statement 6th September 2007
      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta5
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 10:13:21 PM
      KM statement 6th September 2007
      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta5

      Are you going to qualify that post?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on August 31, 2015, 10:20:29 PM
      Who mentioned the 48 questions? KM was interviewed for hours before that questioning
      What I have posted is quotes from a source, what is actually sad is your deriding my attempt to challenge a claim on here that you made...with some kind of authority....well, show us the proof that Kate McCann never uttered these words, a simple denial from her will also do.....I would have thought the attempt to clear up "myths" would be applauded by you, but seems you are satisfied to just declare without back up?

      Hmmmm

      One thing I am unprepared to do is discuss proven lies from the most dubious source possible ... as if they deserved any credence whatsoever.  The fact that a nasty work of fiction is all you have in support of your argument reveals exactly how shallow that argument is and devalues everything else you have to say on the matter.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carew on August 31, 2015, 10:25:25 PM
      Yes:

      Following the search effected at Rua das Flores, 27, during which certain items were seized, this present inspection was performed, in a place appropriated for its purpose, attempting to identify particular pieces of clothing possibly indicated by the dogs, namely Eddy [that] indicates cadaver odours and Kila [that] indicates blood odours.
      [/color]
      Clothing laid out all over the villa, but not alerted to, was packed into cardboard boxes and transported to the gym so the dogs could have a second stab ....


      It seems unclear..........The clip in blue doesn`t tie in with the snip from the villa search which records only Eddie present, not Keela. How can it state that Keela possibly indicated blood odours on clothing there?

      Was Keela deployed at the villa?



      *snip*
      "Official record of the canine inspection at 18h14 on 2 August 2007 at the current residence of the McCann couple situated at Rua das Flores, 27, Praia da Luz, Lagos.

       The five participants are indicated as two PJ Inspectors; UK NPIA officer (Harrison); UK dog handler (Grime); UK English Springer spaniel (Eddy)."



      Both dogs are reported to have been deployed at the gym.

      *snip*
      "Official record of the canine inspection at 23h20 on 2 August 2007 at the Municipal Pavilion of Lagos, [situated in] Lagos.

       The ten participants are indicated as being five PJ Chief Inspectors (2)/Inspectors (3); The UK NPIA officer (Harrison); the UK dog handler (Grime); the Portuguese-speaking officer from Scotland Yard (Freitas); and the two UK English Springer spaniels - Eddy and Kila"



      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm


      (Sorry....it could be a comprehension malfunction on my part! )
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on August 31, 2015, 11:37:06 PM
      One thing I am unprepared to do is discuss proven lies from the most dubious source possible ... as if they deserved any credence whatsoever.  The fact that a nasty work of fiction is all you have in support of your argument reveals exactly how shallow that argument is and devalues everything else you have to say on the matter.

      I think, in your apparent state of enragement, you might have become confused. I had no argument, I just questioned various peoples declarations, such as yours, that the reference to KM saying she was in touch with dead bodies was a lie... You mention, yet again proven lies, but provide no proof, how odd, neither do you provide any evidence that the book was a nasty work of fiction...as for your declaration that anythng I say here is devalued because of your flawed argument  has just been turned on its head!

       8((()*/

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on September 01, 2015, 01:07:49 AM
      And you know this how?
      if you cannot provide evidence or proof then what you say is as much a myth surely?

      Just for reference


      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic11923.html

      Chapter 8

      On the tv monitor, Eddie can be seen sniffing over Kate's clothing and marking that it had been in contact with a cadaver. The reactions of the dogs in the vehicle that had been used by Madeleine's parents can also be seen.

      - At the medical center where I work, in England, before we came on holidays, people died whom I had been in contact with... you must be forgetting that I am a doctor...

      - Yes you are - João Tavared replies - and the death rate at the medical center where you work twice a week is extremely high...

      It's true  - the arguido replies
      When my son died in his bed at home, two GP's had to come to our house and quickly examine him, then verify that he was indeed dead.   I think that was to make sure that a living person was not sealed in a coffin.


      I doubt that is an uncommon scenario.   GP's have to do those sort of thngs quite often.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 01, 2015, 01:23:53 AM
      When my son died in his bed at home, two GP's had to come to our house and quickly examine him, then verify that he was indeed dead.   I think that was to make sure that a living person was not sealed in a coffin.


      I doubt that is an uncommon scenario.   GP's have to do those sort of thngs quite often.

      PPC's glaring errors are that he wrote the deaths occurred at the medical centre and the medical centre had a high death rate. Clearly he wasn't familiar with the NHS system in the UK when he concocted Kate's excuse.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 01, 2015, 07:39:39 AM
      I think the whole accident scenario is impossible for lots of reasons.....as regards moving the body...why not move the body before  raising the alarm

      That is my theory. A body would be moved away from the crime scene before the alarm was raised. You don't raise the alarm and then have people in your apartment opening wardrobes and finding it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2015, 07:47:16 AM
      When my son died in his bed at home, two GP's had to come to our house and quickly examine him, then verify that he was indeed dead.   I think that was to make sure that a living person was not sealed in a coffin.


      I doubt that is an uncommon scenario.   GP's have to do those sort of thngs quite often.

      Usually certain doctors from each practice, frequently at an undertakers and always wearing gloves.

      So easy to prove, you have to wonder why it wasn't.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 08:06:42 AM
      yes, I did, and I know where it came from, the book!
      the files do NOT contain the interrogation of KM before her arguido statements
      You still have to give evidence it is a fabrication...or you can refuse to and say, well, I just think that
      Finally, no it's not stupid, unless you think her sister in law is stupid too, then again, yeah, KM was a GP not a mortuary technician..hmmmm

      the question re the dogs would have been asked post arguido status and we know Kate reused to answer any questions
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 08:08:12 AM
      I think, in your apparent state of enragement, you might have become confused. I had no argument, I just questioned various peoples declarations, such as yours, that the reference to KM saying she was in touch with dead bodies was a lie... You mention, yet again proven lies, but provide no proof, how odd, neither do you provide any evidence that the book was a nasty work of fiction...as for your declaration that anythng I say here is devalued because of your flawed argument  has just been turned on its head!

       8((()*/

      where's the proof the dogs alerted to cadaver..there is none..not even any evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 01, 2015, 08:09:07 AM
      Usually certain doctors from each practice, frequently at an undertakers and always wearing gloves.

      So easy to prove, you have to wonder why it wasn't.

      After examination - surely their gloves would cross contaminate anything else they touched - like their own clothing for instance?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2015, 08:22:00 AM
      After examination - surely their gloves would cross contaminate anything else they touched - like their own clothing for instance?

      You wonder how doctors survive at all... 8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 01, 2015, 08:26:37 AM

      It seems unclear..........The clip in blue doesn`t tie in with the snip from the villa search which records only Eddie present, not Keela. How can it state that Keela possibly indicated blood odours on clothing there?

      Was Keela deployed at the villa?



      *snip*
      "Official record of the canine inspection at 18h14 on 2 August 2007 at the current residence of the McCann couple situated at Rua das Flores, 27, Praia da Luz, Lagos.

       The five participants are indicated as two PJ Inspectors; UK NPIA officer (Harrison); UK dog handler (Grime); UK English Springer spaniel (Eddy)."



      Both dogs are reported to have been deployed at the gym.

      *snip*
      "Official record of the canine inspection at 23h20 on 2 August 2007 at the Municipal Pavilion of Lagos, [situated in] Lagos.

       The ten participants are indicated as being five PJ Chief Inspectors (2)/Inspectors (3); The UK NPIA officer (Harrison); the UK dog handler (Grime); the Portuguese-speaking officer from Scotland Yard (Freitas); and the two UK English Springer spaniels - Eddy and Kila"



      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/INSPECTION_SITES.htm


      (Sorry....it could be a comprehension malfunction on my part! )

      Unless Keela was used to check the toy (the only recorded "alert" in the villa) no.

      By a theory evolved specifically for PdL (so far as I'm aware, the very first occasion Keela and Eddie were used together) Eddie is brought in first, then Keela if Eddie alerts.

      Apart from the gym, where Keela was deployed first (without reacting) then Eddie was brought in.

      Heaven knows why ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2015, 08:28:07 AM
      After examination - surely their gloves would cross contaminate anything else they touched - like their own clothing for instance?

      Perhaps they take them off and throw them away afterwards?  8(>((
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 08:41:41 AM
      yes, I did, and I know where it came from, the book!
      the files do NOT contain the interrogation of KM before her arguido statements
      You still have to give evidence it is a fabrication...or you can refuse to and say, well, I just think that
      Finally, no it's not stupid, unless you think her sister in law is stupid too, then again, yeah, KM was a GP not a mortuary technician..hmmmm

      It is not possible to prove something that does not exist.

      This supposed conversation is not in the pre arquido statement or in the post arguido statement.
      And since Cristovao would not have had access to either of these interviews, where is it likely to have come from other than in his own mind.  And even he admits that the book is largely fiction, probably to avoid being sued as at no time was he part of the investigation.

      Therefor there was never any need to prove whether or not Kate said this, or in fact came into contact with six dead bodies, or even one.
      And if anyone actually believes that she took her daughter's soft toy to the inspection of a dead body they must think that Kate is deranged.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 01, 2015, 08:48:23 AM
      Perhaps they take them off and throw them away afterwards?  8(>((

      I'm sure they do  -  but you can't take off both gloves without touching the second glove with a bare hand - so one of your hands would then be cross- contaminated.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 08:57:49 AM
      yes, I did, and I know where it came from, the book!
      the files do NOT contain the interrogation of KM before her arguido statements
      You still have to give evidence it is a fabrication...or you can refuse to and say, well, I just think that
      Finally, no it's not stupid, unless you think her sister in law is stupid too, then again, yeah, KM was a GP not a mortuary technician..hmmmm

      She was effectively a locum I believe when she last practiced.

      ....and how often do Doctors encounter dead bodies in their normal work ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 09:06:44 AM
      Mercury, the extract you quoted from Cristovão's book is supposed to be Kate's arguida interview. If she had answered as described, why aren't the answers noted in the statement?

      The official blurb of the book says it was based on conversations with police officers and stories in the media.

      Just a few examples:


      On the night that Madeleine disappeared, they had consumed twelve bottles of wine, and some appetizers.


      He got the myth wrong. The correct myth is 14 bottles...


      Second, when they detected the odour of death on the key of the car that they used, which was rented more than twenty days after the little girl went missing. In the same car where they found traces of blood and hair under the spare tire.

      I always wondered where the spare tire myth originated...

      - Did you ever give your children any medicine to make them sleep?

      - No, never - she replies with indignation.

      This was a rhetorical question, as it was known that Kate's father had stated that it was usual for them to give the children Calpol to sleep.

      He must have read the same tabloid as Amaral on the Calpol issue...

      For hours, the questions followed one another, and Kate reached emotional peaks several times. A confession is proposed to her, with the explanation that the penal context is more favourable in such cases. This is done to ensure that an exit is offered to a person who is feeling trapped.

      Ooops.


      At the moment, all they have is a partially positive DNA match – meaning it could belong either to Madeleine or to her siblings, or to her mother…


      And another one who didn't understand DNA...


      There are quite a few more, but I'll stop there.

      ETA: A dog-related one:

      And then there are the doggies, that never missed a case over 200 times, and now supposedly have got it all wrong?

      I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean...

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 01, 2015, 09:24:36 AM
      Does the contamination result of nose-bleeds, bloody tissues and children falling over disappear then after the dog has been commanded to search?

      Obviously I was talking about when Eddie would be around the general public,  not when he was searching the apartments etc.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 09:25:57 AM
      With thanks to Astro for translation.


      Here's another doggy-related bit.

      - We will presume that the dog wasn’t wrong, ok? – says Francisco.

      - Maybe it arrived in the Algarve and got his 201st case wrong – João Tavares replies, with a funny smile.
      - Well, chief, what do you think about the notion that a body was in the living room where the dog detected the odor, instead of one of the bedrooms? Wouldn’t it have made more sense to hide it in a bedroom?
      - That’s right, Francisco, but what if something happened precisely in the living room, and the body remained there until it was decided what to do with it?

      - Just ‘being’ there is not enough. It had to remain there for at least one-and-a-half to two hours – Francisco concluded.

      - Correct. And what did it take to get it out of there? At least, to wait for darkness. If it was risky to take it out at night, then during the day it would have been madness – João Tavares finalizes.

      The two policemen conclude that there might have been an accident inside the apartment. There was no apparent reason for a voluntary crime. Maybe something unexpected had happened, and the parents decided that the best action would be not to assume the fact. It was a possibility that should be considered, taking into account the work of the English dog, and also the work that had been done by the GNR’s sniffer dog, that had detected the trail of Madeleine between apartment 5A and another apartment, and lost it there.

      The same English dog found a series of clues that lead him to the beach at Luz, the beach where Krugel had found the presence of Madeleine, already a cadaver. The other dog detected small spots of blood in the living room, which the investigators could at least affirm that belonged to one of the three children of the McCanns. All of this put together, gave them a vision that was not enough as evidence, but certainly as an indication, supported by the theory that the child had been killed inside the apartment, transported from there into another apartment, and then taken to the beach of Luz.

      The beach offered the sea as a possibility to conceal the body of Madeleine. But the interior of the Algarve also offers countless possibilities for someone who wants to hide something, to do so with relative ease and success.

      - But then, chief, what about the residues that the dogs detected inside the Renaul Scenic? – Francisco questions.

      - Well, that really messed the whole picture up, because finding that type of residues in the area that is located just beneath the spare tire is a complicated matter; come to think of it, it’s not really that complicated… or at least not to me – the chief replies, smiling.

      - Sure – Francisco continues – one thing is to transport clothing that might have carried traces from the child. They did move house twice, after all, didn’t they? Another entirely different matter is the location of the dog’s findings. Precisely the spot where one would hide things inside a car, right? In the cavity for the spare tire, more precisely beneath the tire. What a strange thing, chief.

      - Strange things happen here with the Portuguese, Francisco. When information was released that we had found these elements in the car, the first thing that happened was a voice from London saying that if something had been found, it could only be due to the fact that we had planted it there. Fantastic, isn’t it? – João Tavares protests with indignation, while he walks across the room, from one side to another and back.

      - You know what, chief? I’m fed up with those half-profiles and people telling us that we need the CSI here. Those people have no idea how an investigation unfolds in reality.

      Francisco is upset about the notion that a criminal investigation works like in the American tv shows. This is completely wrong. It is one thing to analyze great amounts of blood or other bodily fluids, and quite another to examine minuscule samples, that may even be contaminated, which was the case. Apartment 5A had been covered with digital prints of the dozens of people that had been through it, after the child had disappeared.

      Even if some criminal had entered the apartment and taken the little girl, what residues would have been left behind? Unless the person had sneezed or grabbed the door handle without gloves, there would have been nothing.

      With luck, some footprints might have been preserved, but by the time that the police arrived on location, tens of people had walked through the apartment, covering the footprints of a possible stranger with their own.

      João Tavares did not lack ideas, what he needed now was to place them into position, in order to be able to produce a theory that could explain the events of that evening, and to sustain it on facts that could be proved in a court room. This seemed like a gigantic task to him.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on September 01, 2015, 09:26:06 AM
      After examination - surely their gloves would cross contaminate anything else they touched - like their own clothing for instance?

      And you would of course wear your work clothes on holiday!! Especially those check pyjama like trousers. 8(*(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on September 01, 2015, 09:26:37 AM
      Usually certain doctors from each practice, frequently at an undertakers and always wearing gloves.

      So easy to prove, you have to wonder why it wasn't.
      That was not the case with my son.

      Both doctors came in independantly, but no gloves were worn.

      The one doctor was a neighbour, not our usual doctor, but from our practice.  The other doctor was a friend of his and of us.  The first doctor called him in, cos two were needed.


      As far as I am aware neither had any links with an undertaker.
      People are dying in their own homes all the time.  Such is life .... and doctors have to verify they are dead.


      Kate could have been to one such unhappy happening in the days before they came on holiday. 
      It only takes one to pass the cadavar scent on.


      But we dont know.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 09:28:10 AM

      Does anyone know when Cristovao's book was published?

      Sorry, Off Topic but the knowledge might help.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 01, 2015, 09:35:23 AM
      Does anyone know when Cristovao's book was published?

      Sorry, Off Topic but the knowledge might help.

      Can't pinpoint the exact date, but it seems to have been summer 2012
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on September 01, 2015, 09:39:36 AM
      Kate has been close to six bodies in last two weeks at work



       

      TimesOnline 10.09.2007


      Mrs McCann is reported to have explained that in her work as locum GPshe came into contact with six corpses in the weeks leading up to Algarve holiday.


       

       

       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 01, 2015, 09:40:30 AM
      And you would of course wear your work clothes on holiday!! Especially those check pyjama like trousers. 8(*(

      I've taken many a favourite skirt or blouse/top etc. which I've worn at work on holiday.  Am I the only one? Surely not.

      The point I was making is that wearing gloves would not necessarily guarantee the prevention of cross contamination of cadaverscent onto a doctor's hands or their clothing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 09:40:47 AM
      Can't pinpoint the exact date, but it seems to have been summer 2012

      Thanks.  So he still hadn't read The Files.  Mind you, he does seem to have been otherwise engaged in other dodgy money making exercises at the time.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 09:44:20 AM
      Kate has been close to six bodies in last two weeks at work



       

      TimesOnline 10.09.2007


      Mrs McCann is reported to have explained that in her work as locum GPshe came into contact with six corpses in the weeks leading up to Algarve holiday.

      "Reported to have explained."  TimesOnLine.

      Which paper was it that has lately been forced to issue a retraction, and paid a sum of money for the lie?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on September 01, 2015, 09:47:48 AM
      Depends on the job really. No way would  Kate McCann be wearing those check pyjama bottoms for signing death certificates or whatever. Hardly professional. I used to wear skirts and jackets for work and the first thing I did before my  holiday started   was put them aside for the cleaning specialists before getting out my 'real' clothes to party.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 01, 2015, 09:48:12 AM
      Kate has been close to six bodies in last two weeks at work



       

      TimesOnline 10.09.2007


      Mrs McCann is reported to have explained that in her work as locum GPshe came into contact with six corpses in the weeks leading up to Algarve holiday.

      Reported by whom?  There is no record that Kate made any such statement in the files.

      Your article is from 2007 - when all manner of lies, myths and rubbish were regularly being spouted in the press.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on September 01, 2015, 09:50:53 AM
      Your article is from 2007 - when all manner of lies, myths and rubbish were regularly being spouted in the pres.s

      So you keep telling us.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2015, 09:52:16 AM
      That was not the case with my son.

      Both doctors came in independantly, but no gloves were worn.

      The one doctor was a neighbour, not our usual doctor, but from our practice.  The other doctor was a friend of his and of us.  The first doctor called him in, cos two were needed.


      As far as I am aware neither had any links with an undertaker.
      People are dying in their own homes all the time.  Such is life .... and doctors have to verify they are dead.


      Kate could have been to one such unhappy happening in the days before they came on holiday. 
      It only takes one to pass the cadavar scent on.


      But we dont know.

      Should have been easy to prove.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 09:53:07 AM
      Does anyone know when Cristovao's book was published?

      Sorry, Off Topic but the knowledge might help.

      March 2008

      http://galaxiadoslivros.blogspot.com/2011/01/paulo-pereira-cristovao.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2015, 09:54:23 AM
      Should have been easy to prove.

      ...and of course given sufficient time for the scent to develop.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carol on September 01, 2015, 09:57:31 AM
      "Reported to have explained."  TimesOnLine.

      Which paper was it that has lately been forced to issue a retraction, and paid a sum of money for the lie?

      Yes strange that.
      The parents of missing child Madeleine McCann have sued The Sunday Times for libel over a story which they said gave the impression they had hindered the investigation into her disappearance.
      However they DIDN'T  sue over the supposed lies and myths spouted by the Times Online over the six dead bodies. They missed an opportunity there!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 10:02:03 AM
      Yes strange that.
      The parents of missing child Madeleine McCann have sued The Sunday Times for libel over a story which they said gave the impression they had hindered the investigation into her disappearance.
      However they DIDN'T  sue over the supposed lies and myths spouted by the Times Online over the six dead bodies. They missed an opportunity there!

      Why would printing that be libellous, even if it's inaccurate?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 01, 2015, 10:03:17 AM
      Depends on the job really. No way would  Kate McCann be wearing those check pyjama bottoms for signing death certificates or whatever. Hardly professional. I used to wear skirts and jackets for work and the first thing I did before my  holiday started   was put them aside for the cleaning specialists before getting out my 'real' clothes to party.

      If Kate went home with hands contaminated with cadaverscent, she would have no need to be wearing those trousers - as cross contamination could have taken place later.

      According to Martin Grime - cleaning/washing does not remove the scent and cross contamination is instant.

      Anyway - AFAIK Kate has never made any claims on the subject - so what other people unconnected with the case have claimed  - are at best uncorroborated 'opinions' and at worst ' fabrications' IMO.    Whichever they are -  they are irrelevant to the case imo.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:08:07 AM
      Yes strange that.
      The parents of missing child Madeleine McCann have sued The Sunday Times for libel over a story which they said gave the impression they had hindered the investigation into her disappearance.
      However they DIDN'T  sue over the supposed lies and myths spouted by the Times Online over the six dead bodies. They missed an opportunity there!

      If you read the law re libel you will understand why they couldn't sue
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 10:21:42 AM
      March 2008

      http://galaxiadoslivros.blogspot.com/2011/01/paulo-pereira-cristovao.html

      So he hadn't read The Files then.  Or had he?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 10:22:21 AM
      Should have been easy to prove.

      Why would it have been necessary?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 10:37:13 AM
      Now if not from the Mccanns or their 'sources', where would the claim of Kate Mccann seeing 6 bodies come from ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 10:43:03 AM
      So he hadn't read The Files then.  Or had he?

      He stated that his sources were conversations with police officers and the media. Some aspects do correspond to the general thinking of Amaral & co., and some more or less accurate details, but others must be gleaned from mangled tabloid reports of half-truths, in themselves largely initially leaked by the PJ anyway.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 10:48:18 AM
      Now if not from the Mccanns or their 'sources', where would the claim of Kate Mccann seeing 6 bodies come from ?

      Cristovao's money making book.  He made it up.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 10:49:52 AM
      He stated that his sources were conversations with police officers and the media. Some aspects do correspond to the general thinking of Amaral & co., and some more or less accurate details, but others must be gleaned from mangled tabloid reports of half-truths, in themselves largely initially leaked by the PJ anyway.

      Did he make any money from this book?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 01, 2015, 10:59:07 AM
      Now if not from the Mccanns or their 'sources', where would the claim of Kate Mccann seeing 6 bodies come from ?

      Where is your evidence that a claim regarding ''six bodies'' was ever made by the McCanns or their 'sources'?

      If Kate had been in contact with 6 cadavers as a GP then that would be easy for the police to substantiate.  They could simply look at her work records.     Therefore nothing to by gain by the McCanns by claiming she did - if she didn't.

      If the McCanns did make that claim to the PJ - then it undoubtedly would have been recorded in the files.  The fact that AFAIK it doesn't even get a mention says it all IMO.

      Why wasn't it one of the 48 questions?


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 11:08:17 AM
      Where is your evidence that a claim regarding ''six bodies'' was ever made by the McCanns or their 'sources'?

      If Kate had been in contact with 6 cadavers as a GP then that would be easy for the police to substantiate.  They could simply look at her work records.     Therefore nothing to by gain by the McCanns by claiming she did - if she didn't.

      If the McCanns did make that claim to the PJ - then it undoubtedly would have been recorded in the files.  The fact that AFAIK it doesn't even get a mention says it all IMO.

      Why wasn't it one of the 48 questions?


      Why would anyone who didn't believe the mccanns make that story up, which has been around since early on ?

      ( To Eleanor )How do we know Christavo made that claim up ?

      and why would he need to ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on September 01, 2015, 11:13:05 AM

      Why would anyone who didn't believe the mccanns make that story up, which has been around since early on.

      ( To Eleanor )How do we know Christavo made that claim up ?

      and why would he need to ?

      Bit of gossip intended to "rev up" his book and help sell it?  Money ?.

      Also a bit of Mccann smacking and obfuscation if untrue.   To help his old mate Amaral ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 11:18:12 AM
      Bit of gossip intended to "rev up" his book and help sell it?  Money ?.

      Also a bit of Mccann smacking and obfuscation if untrue.   To help his old mate Amaral ?

      Where is the proof it came from him ?

      It would go against the theory of parental involvement.

      Also, the sheer likelihood of any Doctor, bar in an emergency confirming 6 dead bodies in two weeks, doesn't add up.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: LagosBen on September 01, 2015, 11:20:28 AM
      May I ask you if you were in the area at the time Madeleine disappeared?  I can appreciate that a 'local' would be getting a bit fed up by now, so I am curious.

      No I wasn't there that night. 8(>((

      Looking at the pages since I first posted again, just proves to me my thoughts. Whilst dogs can, and are very useful tools, in this case they proved zero.

      And as usual most of the posts/claims here are based around the BS that appeared first in PT "Newspapers" then UK "Newspapers" therefore I'm outta here again.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 11:22:52 AM

      Why would anyone who didn't believe the mccanns make that story up, which has been around since early on.

      ( To Eleanor )How do we know Christavo made that claim up ?

      and why would he need to ?

      He wasn't present at any of the interviews, and nowhere is it mentioned in The Files, which incidentally, hadn't even been released at the time.
      So did someone who was there tell him this, and if so, why is there no official record of this?

      Why did he make it up?  To make money.  The man is a known liar and a thief, and is currently on trial for much more imaginative crimes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 11:24:53 AM
      He wasn't present at any of the interviews, and nowhere is it mentioned in The Files, which incidentally, hadn't even been released at the time.
      So did someone who was there tell him this, and if so, why is there no official record of this?

      Why did he make it up?  To make money.  The man is a known liar and a thief, and is currently on trial for much more imaginative crimes.

      How would it make him money ?

      It would go against the case they were pursuing  ?

      and more pertinently, this story originated somewhere.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 11:28:36 AM
      Did he make any money from this book?

      No idea. His previous book on the Cipriano case (published in September 2007), with a similar title, was No. 7 in the book charts... so I would imagine that it sold quite well.

      http://www.presenca.pt/editorial/ingleses-so-prejudicaram/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: sadie on September 01, 2015, 11:29:44 AM
      How would it make him money ?

      It would go against the case they were pursuing  ?

      and more pertinently, this story originated somewhere.
      It was an obfuscation seemingly stephen.


      Get that message out and believed, then The Mccanns would possibly have to try and prove something they could not, cos it wasn't true.   It could make them LOOK liars .... just look liars


      That is assuming that the six deaths wasn't true  ..... and it seems to have no source .... so it looks as tho it was indeed not true.


      Obfuscation?  And sensationalist possibly, to make money?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 11:30:17 AM
      Where is the proof it came from him ?

      It would go against the theory of parental involvement.

      Also, the sheer likelihood of any Doctor, bar in an emergency confirming 6 dead bodies in two weeks, doesn't add up.

      No, it doesn't add up, Stephen.  And it would certainly be on record if Kate had confirmed the death of 6 dead bodies.  But hardly the place to take a child's soft toy.
      Cristovao was just trying to enforce the theory that Kate was a liar.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 11:41:07 AM
      How would it make him money ?

      It would go against the case they were pursuing  ?

      and more pertinently, this story originated somewhere.

      Seemingly this detail came from CdM.

      O Correio da Manhã titula "Mãe de Maddie apertada pela PJ".

      O jornal diz que terá sido detectado sangue no carro do casal e adianta que Kate McCann terá justificado o odor de cadáver nas roupas e no peluche com o facto de ser médica e de ter estar em contacto com seis corpos antes das férias em Portugal.
      http://www.zebananas.com/POR/Setembro7.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 11:42:12 AM
      How would it make him money ?

      It would go against the case they were pursuing  ?

      and more pertinently, this story originated somewhere.

      He sold many copies of the book.  No, I don't know how many.

      He wasn't involved in the case, so he was just trying to make Kate look ridiculous, and a desperate liar, since if untrue then Kate could never confirm it, ergo, she lied.  It's a sort of double negative.  Which you understand only too well.  And that is not a criticism, by the way.  More of a compliment actually.

      A lot of very untrue rubbish was bandied about at the time, if of course anything is able to be Very Untrue.  Most of which found it's way into The Tabloids.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 11:45:33 AM
      Thank you Carana for that.

      I've been googling,  @)(++(* , for any reference to the 6 bodies and found very little.I do recall there being more references in the past, but they seem to have evaporated into the ether.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 12:01:02 PM
      A load of rubbish and not worth going Off topic for, but that's life I suppose.


      I do believe he was working for one of the Portuguese newspapers at the time.

      excerpt:
      As for Cristovao, he left the PJ after the Joana case to become a writer. Last year, as a columnist for Diario de Noticias, he became a prolific commentator on the Madeleine inquiry, writing a series of articles apparently derived in part from conversations with his former colleagues.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-560696/Madeleine-The-damning-case-police-Britains-investigative-reporter.html

       The statement of the six bodies came from the press there. It was copied and published by the times on line, but was withdrawn.

      A copy is here.
      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic521.html
      There's no video interview we could find to hear Kate McCann say it herself, nor any newspaper interview.

      If the statement was true, every UK newspaper would be running with it.

      His book is a mixture of truth and fiction.

      excerpt
      3 April 2008 | Posted by astro 

      ‘A Estrela de Madeleine’ or ‘The Star of Madeleine’.
      This novel, where fact and fiction are deliberately intertwined, as the author states in the foreword, invites us to reflect upon the various possible theories behind the disappearance of Madeleine. It does reach a conclusion of some sort, while leaving an open door into other solutions. The exploration of several theories is done almost exhaustively, presenting arguments in favour and against several possibilities.

      http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/04/estrela-de-madeleine-by-paulo-pereira.html

      The book, much of it composed of a fictional dialogue between two fictional PJ officers, Francisco and Joao, recycles some of the cruellest smears against the McCanns, such as the claim that Gerry did not get sufficiently involved in the children's routines. Such information, it claims, gave the police "an idea how the family functioned".
      It also contains details that can have come only from inside the investigation: as a view of PJ thinking, it may well be as authentic an account as has yet been given.

      Cristovao refused to meet me, saying that too many British journalists were "racist".

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-560696/Madeleine-The-damning-case-police-Britains-investigative-reporter.html


      Myth

      Excerpt:
      Apparently the source for this claim is Correia da Manha, a Portuguese tabloid. It was impossible for us to find the original. However the British newspapers copied it into their articles. There's no video interview we could find to hear Kate McCann say it herself, nor any newspaper interview.
      Mrs McCann is reported to have explained that in her work as locum GP she came into contact with six corpses in the weeks leading up to Algarve holiday.
      http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39078050/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2030#KatetookCuddleCatsometimestowork


      The McCann were arquido  and the case was still being investigated. so where would  he obtain this factual information pertaining to a live investigation? Privacy laws would have prevented him from disclosing anything from the official files.

      It seems some are immune to the Portuguese law………..Or were!

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 12:12:20 PM

      This is what I call Good Off Topic Stuff, Anna.  Which I would, since I am engaged in it.  And thanks for your input.  Golly good, as always.

      And anyway, this is a really interesting discussion, wherein no one is actually insulting anyone.  That has to be a bonus.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 12:15:53 PM
      The origin could be an interview with Phil, which then grew arms and legs.



      Ruth: "Is it right that Gerry is being questioned separately today?"

      Philomena: "He's going in at 2pm today. But he's not the main suspect, for some unknown reason there's something about a sniffer dog sniffing Kate. Suddenly a dog can talk and says she smelled a death. How can that be when a British sniffer dog came out months after Madeleine's case. They're doctors, if there's a smell of death on them could that possibly be a patient?"

      Transcript of Philomena McCann on This Morning 07 September 2007
           

      This Morning, ITV1, 07 September 2007 Prime Time
      Transcript of Philomena McCann on This Morning 07 September 2007
       http://www.mccannfiles.com/id250.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 12:24:06 PM
      Correio da Manhã

      (Translated by Ines)

      7 September 2007

      “KATE McCann Explains Death Scent Was Due To Her Profession”

      Madeleine’s mother, Kate McCann was confronted for the first time yesterday with the fact that two pieces of clothing (jeans and a T-shirt) as well as the cuddly toy that has always accompanied her during these months were alerted to in July by English sniffer dogs as being impregnated with cadaver odour. Kate did not deny this, having immediately justified the fact due to her profession.

      Whilst she was a doctor at Leicester Health Centre she attended at least six situations of deaths during the time immediately preceding her arrival in Portugal for holiday.

      As regards the justification given for the odour present on the cuddly toy, she gave the same reason. For unknown reasons, the doctor had her daughter’s soft toy with her whilst she worked at the health centre in question.

      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post218079.html#p218079

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 12:29:19 PM
      Correio da Manhã

      (Translated by Ines)

      7 September 2007

      “KATE McCann Explains Death Scent Was Due To Her Profession”

      Madeleine’s mother, Kate McCann was confronted for the first time yesterday with the fact that two pieces of clothing (jeans and a T-shirt) as well as the cuddly toy that has always accompanied her during these months were alerted to in July by English sniffer dogs as being impregnated with cadaver odour. Kate did not deny this, having immediately justified the fact due to her profession.

      Whilst she was a doctor at Leicester Health Centre she attended at least six situations of deaths during the time immediately preceding her arrival in Portugal for holiday.

      As regards the justification given for the odour present on the cuddly toy, she gave the same reason. For unknown reasons, the doctor had her daughter’s soft toy with her whilst she worked at the health centre in question.

      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post218079.html#p218079

      That's the one Carana  8((()*/......I missed it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 12:55:44 PM
      That's the one Carana  8((()*/......I missed it.

      That was published on the same day (7 Sept) as the interview with Phil.

      If the origin is indeed the interview with Phil, it's just another example of how these half-truths became factoids.

      ETA: The CdM article refers to her interview prior to being made arguida (but was published on the same day as Phil's media interview) ... in which Kate apparently answered all the questions put to her. So why doesn't her alleged explanation appear in the 6 Sept statement?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 12:59:09 PM
      This is what I call Good Off Topic Stuff, Anna.  Which I would, since I am engaged in it.  And thanks for your input.  Golly good, as always.

      And anyway, this is a really interesting discussion, wherein no one is actually insulting anyone.  That has to be a bonus.

      It's not really off topic, as it concerns an alleged explanation of ChequeredTrouserSniffGate.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 01:28:52 PM
      That's the one Carana  8((()*/......I missed it.

      I remember that article.

      So was it a total fabrication or was it from yet another source ???
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 01:31:14 PM
      It's not really off topic, as it concerns an alleged explanation of ChequeredTrouserSniffGate.

      Yes, it does.  And it is all too easy to wander off a bit.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 01:34:13 PM
      That was published on the same day (7 Sept) as the interview with Phil.

      If the origin is indeed the interview with Phil, it's just another example of how these half-truths became factoids.

      ETA: The CdM article refers to her interview prior to being made arguida (but was published on the same day as Phil's media interview) ... in which Kate apparently answered all the questions put to her. So why doesn't her alleged explanation appear in the 6 Sept statement?

      So it is possible that Cristovao picked up on Philomena's interview and ran with it.

      But as you say, it never appeared anywhere else.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 01:37:23 PM
      That was published on the same day (7 Sept) as the interview with Phil.

      If the origin is indeed the interview with Phil, it's just another example of how these half-truths became factoids.

      ETA: The CdM article refers to her interview prior to being made arguida (but was published on the same day as Phil's media interview) ... in which Kate apparently answered all the questions put to her. So why doesn't her alleged explanation appear in the 6 Sept statement?

      Because it was all just propaganda IMO.

      On the 6th sep 2007. from what I can remember, They didn't even question about the dogs alerts or ask for reasons.
       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2015, 01:46:26 PM
      Seemingly this detail came from CdM.

      O Correio da Manhã titula "Mãe de Maddie apertada pela PJ".

      O jornal diz que terá sido detectado sangue no carro do casal e adianta que Kate McCann terá justificado o odor de cadáver nas roupas e no peluche com o facto de ser médica e de ter estar em contacto com seis corpos antes das férias em Portugal.
      http://www.zebananas.com/POR/Setembro7.htm

      Also ...

      From Maddie 129:

      There are allegations the dogs detected cadaver odors on Kate's jeans and Cuddlecat. The odor on jeans is justified by Kate by saying she was in contact with six cadavers before she left her 2 day per week job in a general clinic in Leicester.

      Maddie 129 … de Hernâni Carvalho, Luís Maia … Edição/reimpressão: 2007 … Launched in Portugal November 9th 2007 … Editor: Prime Books … ISBN: 9789898028617
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 01:46:39 PM
      I remember that article.

      So was it a total fabrication or was it from yet another source ???

      Only CDM know the answer to that one, Stephen.
      IMO it was just more of the same rubbish that was coming from the press at the time. No source mentioned. I will have another look for the original, but I suspect that it has been wiped.

      ETA LINK to original article
      http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/cm_ao_minuto/detalhe/kate-receia-ser-suspeita.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 02:03:07 PM
      So it is possible that Cristovao picked up on Philomena's interview and ran with it.

      But as you say, it never appeared anywhere else.

      I think the sequence might have been a bit different. In the interview with Phil, she's just speculating about a potential explanation. That then gets picked up and mangled by CdM, which then gets picked up by UK media.

      Cristovão did say he got some of his "info" from the media...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 01, 2015, 02:12:58 PM
      Why can no-one else see the complete injustice in this example of accusing a person based on a clothing alert?
      Here is a fact - clothing spends most of its time NOT being worn. Probably 98% of its time. Just laying around in your house or flat. Have a look around your place and it proves it.
      So before you even think of suspecting a person based on clothing alert you have to look at all the many possible scenarios that fit in that 98% where even if the alert were valid the person is completely innocent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 02:25:10 PM
      Why can no-one else see the complete injustice in this example of accusing a person based on a clothing alert?
      Here is a fact - clothing spends most of its time NOT being worn. Probably 98% of its time. Just laying around in your house or flat. Have a look around your place and it proves it.
      So before you even think of suspecting a person based on clothing alert you have to look at all the many possible scenarios that fit in that 98% where even if the alert were valid the person is completely innocent.

      Kate's 6 Sept pre-arguida interview:

      After David left, Kate dressed and sat with the children, Madeleine on her lap. She was wearing a top, she doesn't remember what colour it was, a green long-sleeved t-shirt, blue denim pants. Trainers (tennis shoes) and white socks.

      (...)
      They left by the veranda door, which they left closed but not locked. Main door was closed but not locked. She thinks it could be opened from the inside but not from the outside. She thinks she was wearing a cream coloured polar fleece with a zip, and on top a blue raincoat also with a zip. As regards Gerry, she doesn't know if he was wearing other items of clothing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 01, 2015, 02:43:34 PM
      I think the sequence might have been a bit different. In the interview with Phil, she's just speculating about a potential explanation. That then gets picked up and mangled by CdM, which then gets picked up by UK media.

      Cristovão did say he got some of his "info" from the media...

      Same difference in the end.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 01, 2015, 02:54:51 PM
      Kate's 6 Sept pre-arguida interview:

      After David left, Kate dressed and sat with the children, Madeleine on her lap. She was wearing a top, she doesn't remember what colour it was, a green long-sleeved t-shirt, blue denim pants. Trainers (tennis shoes) and white socks.

      (...)
      They left by the veranda door, which they left closed but not locked. Main door was closed but not locked. She thinks it could be opened from the inside but not from the outside. She thinks she was wearing a cream coloured polar fleece with a zip, and on top a blue raincoat also with a zip. As regards Gerry, she doesn't know if he was wearing other items of clothing.
      Yes that is what the witness was wearing.
      Green long-sleeved t-shirt, blue denim pants, trainers, white socks, cream fleece, blue raincoat.
      And before that - jogging clothes.
      All theories which invent otherwise are utterly unjust and go straight in my bin.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 02:57:34 PM
      Why can no-one else see the complete injustice in this example of accusing a person based on a clothing alert?
      Here is a fact - clothing spends most of its time NOT being worn. Probably 98% of its time. Just laying around in your house or flat. Have a look around your place and it proves it.
      So before you even think of suspecting a person based on clothing alert you have to look at all the many possible scenarios that fit in that 98% where even if the alert were valid the person is completely innocent.


      I can understand the pont of searching for alerts on clothing in certain cases, e.g., if a witness had seen a potential suspect wearing x,y, z on the night of a crime but who had denied ever having met the victim and who had stuffed blood-stained clothing with the victim's DNA in a garage or cellar, then that person would have some explaining to do.

      In this instance, the exercise seems pointless.

      It's possible that at some point the PJ thought that Kate had spent time cradling her dead child's body in her arms, wearing those clothes, along with CC, at some point between the end of tennis and going out for dinner and behaving totally normally.

      Grime had presented the dogs' clothes sniffing capabilities as an option and the rest is history. The PJ may well have thought that that they'd hit the jackpot...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 03:09:04 PM
      Yes that is what the witness was wearing.
      Green long-sleeved t-shirt, blue denim pants, trainers, white socks, cream fleece, blue raincoat.
      And before that - jogging clothes.
      All theories which invent otherwise are utterly unjust and go straight in my bin.

      It's not even clear if she took those trousers with her on holiday: they could have been brought out as extra clothing by family members.

      And none of that explains the dog's reaction to the little blue shorts, little red t-shirt, etc., nor why Grime didn't keep a record of the items alerted to, nor even why some items were thrown in the air and others just nuzzled.

      It just seems totally bizarre to me, but I suppose it might have impressed a jury suddenly faced with such "evidence" in a courtroom in the absence of an adversarial approach.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 03:10:43 PM
      It's not even clear if she took those trousers with her on holiday: they could have been brought out as extra clothing by family members.

      And none of that explains the dog's reaction to the little blue shorts, little red t-shirt, etc., nor why Grime didn't keep a record of the items alerted to, nor even why some items were thrown in the air and others just nuzzled.

      It just seems totally bizarre to me, but I suppose it might have impressed a jury suddenly faced with such "evidence" in a courtroom in the absence of an adversarial approach.

      dog's alerts.....meaningless...for lots of reasons as confirmed by Grime
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 03:27:18 PM
      It's not even clear if she took those trousers with her on holiday: they could have been brought out as extra clothing by family members.

      And none of that explains the dog's reaction to the little blue shorts, little red t-shirt, etc., nor why Grime didn't keep a record of the items alerted to, nor even why some items were thrown in the air and others just nuzzled.

      It just seems totally bizarre to me, but I suppose it might have impressed a jury suddenly faced with such "evidence" in a courtroom in the absence of an adversarial approach.

      Possibly, but she was wearing them on the 6th May
      (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/zzmothersdaypicd.jpg)
      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id170.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 01, 2015, 03:39:01 PM
      It's not even clear if she took those trousers with her on holiday: they could have been brought out as extra clothing by family members.
      (snip)
      IMO this clothing was in the apartment throughout dinner.

      Flown in by family members doesn't work - which family member? - what date? -how many extra hundred miles did they drive?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2015, 03:46:09 PM
      dog's alerts.....meaningless...for lots of reasons as confirmed by Grime

      It seems obvious that Mr Amaral and the PJ quite simply had no understanding of that.  Is there perhaps an element of culpability that no-one in authority from the British side took them aside and explained in the simplest language possible exactly where the dogs were in the food chain of an investigation.

      Or was it the 'perfect storm' of misunderstanding all round.  Quite frankly I don't think Mr Amaral was qualified to be the lead investigator in a missing child case.  That there were a few indications of concern about that can be read between the lines ... but given the PJ reputation for excellence could anyone in authority on the British side be expected to have foreseen that not only would the function of the dogs be misunderstood but that there would be misunderstanding of forensics into the bargain and an apparent failing to seek help from experts on that ... and don't tell me there are no DNA experts in Portugal.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 01, 2015, 04:01:06 PM
      Even if the alert was relevant, that in no way means the witness is anything but completely innocent.
      It is obvious IMO this clothing was in the apartment throughout the whole dinner.
      How can people accuse someone because some of their clothes were at a crime scene?
      What if someone breaks a window and burgles my flat and police find glass fragments on my grey trousers?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 01, 2015, 04:13:19 PM
      It seems obvious that Mr Amaral and the PJ quite simply had no understanding of that.  Is there perhaps an element of culpability that no-one in authority from the British side took them aside and explained in the simplest language possible exactly where the dogs were in the food chain of an investigation.

      Or was it the 'perfect storm' of misunderstanding all round.  Quite frankly I don't think Mr Amaral was qualified to be the lead investigator in a missing child case.  That there were a few indications of concern about that can be read between the lines ... but given the PJ reputation for excellence could anyone in authority on the British side be expected to have foreseen that not only would the function of the dogs be misunderstood but that there would be misunderstanding of forensics into the bargain and an apparent failing to seek help from experts on that ... and don't tell me there are no DNA experts in Portugal.

      Someone (on the Portuguese side) Carana has mentioned often but whose reports (I confess) I have never come across is Court-Real (not sure if that's the right spelling) who seems to have been from the Portuguese forensic lab?

      Perhaps I should read the reports of the Portuguese forensic lab more closely.

      But certainly the Portuguese forensic laboratory seems to have been highly competent, but limited in their ability to shed clues on the mystery of what happened to Madeleine because of the paucity of raw data they were fed to work with by the PJ.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 01, 2015, 04:19:30 PM
      Possibly, but she was wearing them on the 6th May
      (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/zzmothersdaypicd.jpg)
      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id170.html

      I should stress, I am crap at reading body-language, but even I can see (in that photograph) the communication of abject misery and despair in that photograph of Kate and Gerry ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 04:22:01 PM
      it is very telling that some poeple on this forum do not understand what "no evidential reliability" means...it really is quite simple
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 04:37:09 PM
      I should stress, I am crap at reading body-language, but even I can see (in that photograph) the communication of abject misery and despair in that photograph of Kate and Gerry ....

      That photo could bring a tear to most peoples eyes. Its so, so, Sad. And tells all, about the pain that they were suffering.


      ETA Correction
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 04:48:13 PM
      it is very telling that some poeple on this forum do not understand what "no evidential reliability" means...it really is quite simple

       Nothing that could be used as stand alone evidence in other words.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 04:48:26 PM
      That photo could bring a tear to anybody's eye. Its so, so, Sad. And tells all, about the pain that they were suffering.

      But there is just so much rock solid evidence against the McCanns they just don't deserve any sympathy whatsoever
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2015, 05:08:12 PM
      That photo could bring a tear to anybody's eye. Its so, so, Sad. And tells all, about the pain that they were suffering.

      Never mind, they soon felt better.

      (http://8(>(()
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 05:18:50 PM
      Never mind, they soon felt better.

      (http://8(>(()

      What absolute heartless rubbish. So they have lost their daughter.....and you have no sympathy.....what is wrong with you and others on here.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 01, 2015, 05:32:05 PM
      What absolute heartless rubbish. So they have lost their daughter.....and you have no sympathy.....what is wrong with you and others on here.

      They look very unhappy in the picture, but does that mean they felt unhappy? There are pictures a few days later where they look really happy, but you and others say they weren't feeling happy. Seems we can't judge how they feel by looking at photos of them.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 05:33:38 PM
      Possibly, but she was wearing them on the 6th May
      (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/zzmothersdaypicd.jpg)
      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id170.html

      OK, it's possible that she'd taken them out.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 05:39:24 PM
      They look very unhappy in the picture, but does that mean they felt unhappy? There are pictures a few days later where they look really happy, but you and others say they weren't feeling happy. Seems we can't judge how they feel by looking at photos of them.

      photos take a snapshot...anyone with any humanity would understand that they are broken inside at the loss of their daughter...your attitude appalls me
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 05:40:03 PM
      It seems obvious that Mr Amaral and the PJ quite simply had no understanding of that.  Is there perhaps an element of culpability that no-one in authority from the British side took them aside and explained in the simplest language possible exactly where the dogs were in the food chain of an investigation.

      Or was it the 'perfect storm' of misunderstanding all round.  Quite frankly I don't think Mr Amaral was qualified to be the lead investigator in a missing child case.  That there were a few indications of concern about that can be read between the lines ... but given the PJ reputation for excellence could anyone in authority on the British side be expected to have foreseen that not only would the function of the dogs be misunderstood but that there would be misunderstanding of forensics into the bargain and an apparent failing to seek help from experts on that ... and don't tell me there are no DNA experts in Portugal.

      Harrison recommended Grime. Did either of them point out the caveats at the time, beyond the official blurb? Or was any informal caution ignored?

      Re the DNA: Of course there are forensic DNA experts in Portugal. Corte Real being one of them - the one who was even interviewed for Amaral's "documentary" and who agreed with Lowe. If they didn't trust the FSS, then why didn't they simply fax the Lowe email to him and ASK?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 05:46:23 PM
      Someone (on the Portuguese side) Carana has mentioned often but whose reports (I confess) I have never come across is Court-Real (not sure if that's the right spelling) who seems to have been from the Portuguese forensic lab?

      Perhaps I should read the reports of the Portuguese forensic lab more closely.

      But certainly the Portuguese forensic laboratory seems to have been highly competent, but limited in their ability to shed clues on the mystery of what happened to Madeleine because of the paucity of raw data they were fed to work with by the PJ.

      Dr Francisco Corte-Real
      Vice President, National Forensics Institute

      33.09 – When those 15 alleles are included in a mix, where beyond those 15 we can have another 30 or 40 alleles, that means that it includes biological material from several persons. And there it can be much more difficult, much more inconclusive, because we may have a mixture from several persons, including hypothetically, if that happens, we may have several persons from the same family, and that may even give us the idea, in a way, that a certain missing person may be included, and that is not conclusive.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 05:48:29 PM
      photos take a snapshot...anyone with any humanity would understand that they are broken inside at the loss of their daughter...your attitude appalls me

      I can show a lot of photos with the mccanns laughing , including that little video with mccann laughing his head off days after Madeleine's disappearance.

      I have sympathy for Madeleine and her siblings. Her parents remain responsible for her misfortune and ,  unless proved otherwise that's how it will remain.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 05:50:10 PM
      I can show a lot of photos with the mccanns laughing , including that little video with mccann laughing his head off days after Madeleine's disappearance.

      I have sympathy for Madeleine and her siblings. Her parents remain responsible for her misfortune and date,  unless proved otherwise.

      so you have no sympathy for her parents...that's quite a cruel attitude to have...says a lot about you
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 05:52:55 PM
      so you have no sympathy for her parents...that's quite a cruel attitude to have...says a lot about you

      Their arrogance was their downfall and Madeleine suffered the consequences.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 05:54:59 PM
      Their arrogance was their downfall and Madeleine suffered the consequences.

      I think your arrogance could be your downfall....people bereft of compassion tend to be very unhappy in their own lives
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 01, 2015, 05:57:40 PM
      I can show a lot of photos with the mccanns laughing , including that little video with mccann laughing his head off days after Madeleine's disappearance.


      No you can't.

      What you can show is a lot of doctored photos ....

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 05:59:47 PM
      I think your arrogance could be your downfall....people bereft of compassion tend to be very unhappy in their own lives

      I have compassion for starving people and those suffering who get caught up on wars,  victims of extremists.

      Not for the mccanns .

      They don't deserve it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 06:01:23 PM
      I have compassion for starving people and those suffering who get caught up on wars,  victims of extremists.

      Not for the mccanns .

      They don't deserve it.

      so no compassion for victims of crime...not the mccanns but victims in general...the Needhams for instance
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 06:17:45 PM
      so no compassion for victims of crime...not the mccanns but victims in general...the Needhams for instance

      For genuine victims yes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 06:20:03 PM
      No you can't.

      What you can show is a lot of doctored photos ....

      Utter rubbish.

      Stop makings things up.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 06:21:03 PM
      For genuine victims yes.

      so if it turned out the mccanns were victims of a stranger abduction you would have sympathy
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 06:22:58 PM
      Utter rubbish.

      Stop makings things up.

      i can show you two photographs of a teenager at the funeral of her family who were all killed by a psychopath...she survived.
      In one she is smiling happily...do you think she doesn't care
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 06:24:37 PM
      Utter rubbish.

      Stop makings things up.

      I doubt you are able to show us the photos or the video...in fact i'm sure you cannot show us a video of Gerry laughing his head off
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 06:35:37 PM
      i can show you two photographs of a teenager at the funeral of her family who were all killed by a psychopath...she survived.
      In one she is smiling happily...do you think she doesn't care

      You've tried that one before.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 06:46:16 PM
      I doubt you are able to show us the photos or the video...in fact i'm sure you cannot show us a video of Gerry laughing his head off


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 06:52:27 PM


      a 2 second grainy video with no sound...rubbish
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 06:56:18 PM
      a 2 second grainy video with no sound...rubbish

      No dave.

      It was taken a few days after Madeleine disappeared and he's laughing and joking.

      and ferryman this wasn't doctored.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 01, 2015, 07:01:58 PM
      I wonder why Eddie was trained to alert to blood?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 07:05:54 PM
      I wonder why Eddie was trained to alert to blood?

      Because residual scent is a fairly new phenomena....any cadaver dog now would not be trained for blood
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 07:06:58 PM
      No dave.

      It was taken a few days after Madeleine disappeared and he's laughing and joking.

      and ferryman this wasn't doctored.

      so are you suggesting Gerry was happy a few days after maddie disappeared
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 07:08:54 PM
      so are you suggesting Gerry was happy a few days after maddie disappeared

      You tell me dave.


      (http://madeleinemccannthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/mccanns-12-may-2007.jpg)


      AND THERE ARE A LOT MORE.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 01, 2015, 07:10:39 PM
      I wonder why Eddie was trained to alert to blood?

      It's one of many decomposing human remain substances, and can be useful to help find evidence of a crime. If he could smell it in an area where humans hadn't noticed it, then that's a valuable asset. Then Keela can pinpoint exactly where it is.... if it's still present.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 08:25:00 PM
      You tell me dave.


      (http://madeleinemccannthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/mccanns-12-may-2007.jpg)


      AND THERE ARE A LOT MORE.

      So your theory is Maddie is dead and within a couple of days of the death the mccanns were deleriously happy

      Do you think your theory makes any sense
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 08:36:26 PM
      So your theory is Maddie is dead and within a couple of days of the death the mccanns were deleriously happy

      Do you think your theory makes any sense

      Oh dave.

      Can't you do any better than that ?

      Can you remind me of when these photos of the mccanns  were taken ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 08:39:28 PM
      Oh dave.

      Can't you do any better than that ?

      Can you remind me of when these photos of the mccanns  were taken ?
      so you think the mccanns are happy when their daughter has recently died...it is an utterly ridiculous idea
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 08:41:58 PM
      Oh dave.

      Can't you do any better than that ?

      Can you remind me of when these photos of the mccanns  were taken ?

      It was Madeleine's birthday, Stephen.
      Do you know, why Kate and Gerry were smiling?………………
      Because, Balloons blew into their faces. (see video below)

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 08:44:10 PM
      so you think the mccanns are happy when their daughter has recently died...it is an utterly ridiculous idea

      I didn't say that dave.

      Do you think the photographs reflects parents worried about the disappearance of their daughter ?

      Or do you agree with ferryman, saying the photos are doctored ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2015, 08:47:06 PM
      I didn't say that dave.

      Do you think the photographs reflects parents worried about the disappearance of their daughter ?

      Or do you agree with ferryman, saying the photos are doctored ?

      One captured frame from a video ... have you looked at the rest of the footage?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 08:49:56 PM
      I didn't say that dave.

      Do you think the photographs reflects parents worried about the disappearance of their daughter ?

      Or do you agree with ferryman, saying the photos are doctored ?

      I asked you the question first...do you think the McCanns are  laughing because they are happy
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 08:54:40 PM
      One captured frame from a video ... have you looked at the rest of the footage?

      I have seen other extracts, have you ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 08:57:07 PM
      I have seen other extracts, have you ?

      The idea that the McCanns are happy days after the disappearance of maddie is totally stupid...and it seems that is what you think is happening.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 08:57:17 PM
      It was Madeleine's birthday, Stephen.
      Do you know, why Kate and Gerry were smiling?………………
      Because, Balloons blew into their faces. (see video below)


      Anna.

      I know that full well.

      However, it was not a smiling occasion.

      Their daughter had been missing a few days.

      Speaking personally,  I would have been doing something far more pertinent.

      SEARCHING.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 08:58:43 PM
      The idea that the McCanns are happy days after the disappearance of maddie is totally stupid...and it seems that is what you think is happening.

      Tell me dave, what would be more important.

      Going to a church or searching for a missing child ?

      Guess what I would have been doing  ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 08:59:59 PM
      I have seen other extracts, have you ?

      do you have any experience of bereaved parents...obviously not...they laugh and they cry....and your criticism of two parents whose daughter you believe died a few days before these photos were taken is disgraceful and says a lot about the sort of person you are
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:01:24 PM
      do you have any experience of bereaved parents...obviously not...they laugh and they cry....and your criticism of two parents whose daughter you believe died a few days before these photos were taken is disgraceful and says a lot about the sort of person you are

      I do have experience of bereavement dave.

      They weren't smiling occasions.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:01:33 PM
      Tell me dave, what would be more important.

      Going to a church or searching for a missing child ?

      Guess what I would have been doing  ?

      so now you try to change the subject...you don't know what you would be doing because you have never been in that position...cue another change of subject
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:03:32 PM
      I do have experience of bereavement dave.

      They weren't smiling occasions.

      so what do you make of the photo I posted of the young lady at her families funeral...as she happy too
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 09:03:41 PM
      Anna.

      I know that full well.

      However, it was not a smiling occasion.

      Their daughter had been missing a few days.

      Speaking personally,  I would have been doing something far more pertinent.

      SEARCHING.

      Balloons blew into their faces. Do you think they should have cried or smiled at whoever was responsible?
      It was her birthday, they were where they should have been..... at church
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:04:31 PM
      so now you try to change the subject...you don't know what you would be doing because you have never been in that position...cue another change of subject


      Changing subjects ?

      You asked a question, and you got answers with more questions.

      Now dave, what experience do you have of missing children ? &%+((£

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:06:08 PM
      Balloons blew into their faces. Do you think they should have cried or smiled at whoever was responsible?
      It was her birthday, they were where they should have been..... at church

      Easy Anna.

      Hat other people were doing for them.

      SEARCHING.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:06:47 PM

      Changing subjects ?

      You asked a question, and you got answers with more questions.

      Now dave, what experience do you have of missing children ? &%+((£

      you didn't answer the question....do you think the mccanns were happy a few days after maddies disappearance..

      try answering the question
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:06:56 PM
      so what do you make of the photo I posted of the young lady at her families funeral...as she happy too


      So, by your logic everyone should laugh at a funeral ???
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:07:38 PM
      you didn't answer the question....do you think the mccanns were happy a few days after maddies disappearance..

      try answering the question

      I'm afraid giving orders to me won't work.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:07:58 PM

      So, by your logic everyone should laugh at a funeral ???

      try reading the post ...I said people laugh and people cry...often within minutes of each other
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:08:48 PM
      I'm afraid giving orders to me won't work.

      you claimed you had answered the question and you hadn't...so by your definition you are a ****
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:10:01 PM
      you claimed you had answered the question and you hadn't...so by your definition you are a ****

      Oh dear, so predictable.

      I'm afraid to say your standard tactics aren't going to work with me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:11:12 PM
      try reading the post ...I said people laugh and people cry...often within minutes of each other

      The McCann's should have been searching.

      As other people in the area had been doing, day and night.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:12:19 PM
      Oh dear, so predictable.

      I'm afraid to say your standard tactics aren't going to work with me.

      everyone can see you didn't answer the question
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:13:06 PM
      The McCann's should have been searching.

      As other people in the area had been doing, day and night.

      the McCanns should not have been searching
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:15:06 PM
      everyone can see you didn't answer the question

      Actually dave , anyone can see exactly what you are.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:17:53 PM
      the McCanns should not have been searching

      In that situation, I would have.

      To me any parent would have been searching.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2015, 09:18:36 PM
      The McCann's should have been searching.

      As other people in the area had been doing, day and night.

      Professional advice would contradict that assertion ... for more reasons than one if you stop to think about it.

      **Snip
      Your Role in the Search: The First 48 Hours

      In the initial stage of the search, devote your time to providing information to and answering questions from investigators.

      Once you discover that your child is missing, you will desperately want to help with the search.

      You may, in fact, wonder how you possibly can stand by and let others look for your child.

      But the reality is that in most instances, the best use of your energy is not on the physical search itself.

      Rather, you need to provide information to and answer questions from investigators and to be at home in the event your child calls. The checklist Gathering Evidence in the First 48 Hours identifies the most crucial pieces of background information and evidence that law enforcement will need in the search for your child.
      http://www.o[Name removed]dp.gov/pubs/childismissing/ch1.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:19:56 PM
      Professional advice would contradict that assertion ... for more reasons than one if you stop to think about it.

      **Snip
      Your Role in the Search: The First 48 Hours

      In the initial stage of the search, devote your time to providing information to and answering questions from investigators.

      Once you discover that your child is missing, you will desperately want to help with the search.

      You may, in fact, wonder how you possibly can stand by and let others look for your child.

      But the reality is that in most instances, the best use of your energy is not on the physical search itself.

      Rather, you need to provide information to and answer questions from investigators and to be at home in the event your child calls. The checklist Gathering Evidence in the First 48 Hours identifies the most crucial pieces of background information and evidence that law enforcement will need in the search for your child.
      http://www.o[Name removed]dp.gov/pubs/childismissing/ch1.html

      Would you have searched if your daughter or son had gone missing ?

      Or would you just do nothing at all ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:30:24 PM
      Would you have searched if your daughter or son had gone missing ?

      Or would you just do nothing at all ?

      in the first 48 hours the parents would not be in the right physical or mental state to search
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:32:07 PM

      Changing subjects ?

      You asked a question, and you got answers with more questions.

      Now dave, what experience do you have of missing children ? &%+((£

      you posted photos and a video and you haven't got the balls to tell us what you think they mean
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:33:30 PM
      in the first 48 hours the parents would not be in the right physical or mental state to search

      How would you know ?

      Are you speaking for everyone dave ?

      More pertinently, what did they do in tube days afterwards ?

      Then of course we have the setting up of the 'fund'.

      Did the Needham's set up a 'fund' dave within days of Ben's disappearance ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:35:30 PM
      How would you know ?

      Are you speaking for everyone dave ?

      More pertinently, what did they do in tube days afterwards ?

      Then of course we have the setting up of the 'fund'.

      Did the Needham's set up a 'fund' dave within days of Ben's disappearance ?

      it's patently obvious to any intelligent person...that's why it hasn't dawned on you.....the Needhams should have set up a fund a certainly anyone would now do the same
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:35:47 PM
      you posted photos and a video and you haven't got the balls to tell us what you think they mean
      Ah, here goes the insults yet again.

      As to balls dave, I've got two, and they are both fully  functional.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2015, 09:36:50 PM
      Would you have searched if your daughter or son had gone missing ?

      Or would you just do nothing at all ?

      If I had to ... I would.

      I do not think the situation would arise that I would have to conduct my own search in Britain where it is usual for the police to assume full control.

      You appear to be suggesting that the police in Portugal may abrogate that responsibility necessitating the parents of a missing child to do their job for them.

       ... and before you say it ... the person responsible for this is the person who took Madeleine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:37:48 PM
      not sure if you have noticed..we now have gofundme...how long has that been out.....the McCanns saw that the fund was the best thing to do
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:37:53 PM
      it's patently obvious to any intelligent person...that's why it hasn't dawned on you.....the Needhams should have set up a fund a certainly anyone would now do the same

      Did they have a PR team and government backing dave ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:38:48 PM
      you posted photos and a video and you haven't got the balls to tell us what you think they mean quote]

      Ah, here goes the insults yet again.

      As to balls dave, I've got two, and they are both fully  functional.

      no insult...just a  statement of fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:39:58 PM
      not sure if you have noticed..we now have gofundme...how long has that been out.....the McCanns saw that the fund was the best thing to do


      There is a phrase from Arthur on Minder about that. 8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 09:40:39 PM
      in the first 48 hours the parents would not be in the right physical or mental state to search

      Now that is pretty pathetic, are you saying no parents of a suddenly noticed missing child would be able to go out,run, search, shout for their child? Steady on.....a parent finding their kid missing might experience panic and shock but would also spark an urge to go look in places she might be, knock on neighbours doors, garner others...wait 48 hours? What garbage!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:41:29 PM
      Did they have a PR team and government backing dave ?

      and the illuminate...don't forget the illuminati
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:42:55 PM
      Now that is pretty pathetic, are you saying no parents of a suddenly noticed missing child would be able to go out,run, search, shout for their child? Steady on.....a parent finding their kid missing might experience panic and shock but would also spark an urge to go look in places she might be, knock on neighbours doors, garner others...wait 48 hours? What garbage!

      no one said wait 48 hours but you do have problems reading....this wasn't a missing child ..this was an abducted child
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:43:52 PM
      and the illuminate...don't forget the illuminati

      Nothing to do with them.

      Just PR and high level government assistance.

      FACTS.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:44:46 PM
      no one said wait 48 hours but you do have problems reading....this wasn't a missing child ..this was an abducted child

      Abducted dave ?

      Cite the facts for that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 09:44:52 PM
      No I wasn't there that night. 8(>((

      Looking at the pages since I first posted again, just proves to me my thoughts. Whilst dogs can, and are very useful tools, in this case they proved zero.

      And as usual most of the posts/claims here are based around the BS that appeared first in PT "Newspapers" then UK "Newspapers" therefore I'm outta here again.

      Nope, most of the posts aren't , so you are wrong but

       &8#£%
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:45:45 PM
      and the illuminate...don't forget the illuminati

      So you one with sadfie on that. 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:46:25 PM
      Nothing to do with them.

      Just PR and high level government assistance.

      FACTS.

      did you think I was serious
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:49:02 PM
      did you think I was serious

      Try asking the human reptile hybrids.

       @)(++(* @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 09:50:40 PM
      Why can no-one else see the complete injustice in this example of accusing a person based on a clothing alert?
      Here is a fact - clothing spends most of its time NOT being worn. Probably 98% of its time. Just laying around in your house or flat. Have a look around your place and it proves it.
      So before you even think of suspecting a person based on clothing alert you have to look at all the many possible scenarios that fit in that 98% where even if the alert were valid the person is completely innocent.
      How  rubbish is that post?  the Mccanns were suspected before the dogs were brought in, their alerts confirmed the PJs suspicions or at least strengthened them and you can't judge them for that! As Bob Small is said to have said, people get arrested in the UK for less...the whole industry surrounding the notion that the Mccanns should never have been suspects is a joke basically
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 09:54:22 PM
      On reading back I see the 6 dead bodies argument was argued over but not resolved...par for the course I guess on this forum...can't be bothered to reignite it for proof and evidence either way...too many people having kittens over whether Km ever mentioned anything....as IF that would be a lie or  crime if she did

       @)(++(*


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 09:57:30 PM
      On reading back I see the 6 dead bodies argument was argued over but not resolved...par for the course I guess on this forum...can't be bothered to reignite it for proof and evidence either way...too many people having kittens over whether Km ever mentioned anything....as IF that would be a lie or  crime if she did

       @)(++(*

      it's been resolved...there is no proof that Kate ever said it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 09:59:10 PM
      it's been resolved...there is no proof that Kate ever said it

      Or didn't say it for that matter.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:03:35 PM
      Or didn't say it for that matter.

      yes...like the loch ness monster..fairies at the bottom of the garden....ghosts..... mediums...no proof either way
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2015, 10:03:58 PM
      How  rubbish is that post?  the Mccanns were suspected before the dogs were brought in, their alerts confirmed the PJs suspicions or at least strengthened them and you can't judge them for that! As Bob Small is said to have said, people get arrested in the UK for less...the whole industry surrounding the notion that the Mccanns should never have been suspects is a joke basically

      Wonder if you have an independent cite for Bob Small saying that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 10:06:05 PM
      yes...like the loch ness monster..fairies at the bottom of the garden....ghosts..... mediums...no proof either way

      Wow.

      You amaze me yet again. 8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:06:16 PM
      Wonder if you have an independent cite for Bob Small saying that.

      there won't be a quote...
      but like the loch ness monster....and the claim that stephens got two balls...who knows
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 10:08:15 PM
      there won't be a quote...
      but like the loch ness monster....and the claim that stephens got two balls...who knows

      Funny you said that after all your claims. *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:10:24 PM
      Funny you said that after all your claims. *&*%£

      I can prove all my claims
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 10:10:48 PM
      I can prove all my claims

       *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:11:09 PM
      no one said wait 48 hours but you do have problems reading....this wasn't a missing child ..this was an abducted child

      I have far fewer problems than you seem to...btw no one except the mother thought it was an abducted child..was it the foreign office or Mark Warner who said no mention of abduction was made for days???!..and, oh yes, hang on, if she was so sure of this why did she, according to her in her book, say she run up and down the road looking for her, barf!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:13:51 PM
      I have far fewer problems than you seem to...btw no one except the mother thought it was an abducted child..was it the foreign office or Ark Warner who said no mention of abduction was made for days???!..and, oh yes, hang on, if she was so sure of this why did she, according to her in her book, say she run up and down the road looking for her, barf!

      I think it was Ark Warner
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2015, 10:14:36 PM
      I have far fewer problems than you seem to...btw no one except the mother thought it was an abducted child....and, oh yes, hang on, if she was so sure of this why did she, according to her I her book, say she run up and down the road looking for her, barf!

      Funny that SY and the PJ investigations are going exactly with the fact that a stranger abducted Madeleine ... and they seem to be taking pains to find him / her.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:15:25 PM
      Wonder if you have an independent cite for Bob Small saying that.

      about as independent as all of yours...it's a quote, deal with it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 10:16:40 PM
      Funny that SY and the PJ investigations are going exactly with the fact that a stranger abducted Madeleine ... and they seem to be taking pains to find him / her.

      Have they found Madeleine ?

      Have they found an 'abductor'

      Or have they found absolutely nothing at all ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:17:08 PM
      I think it was Ark Warner

      strange then two days later NO talk of abduction at all
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:17:18 PM
      about as independent as all of yours...it's a quote, deal with it

      Exactly...no proof either way...have you noticed any fairies at the bottom of your garden recently
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:17:52 PM
      Have they found Madeleine ?

      Have they found an 'abductor'

      Or have they found absolutely nothing at all ?

      Tell us what they have found then einstein
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:18:38 PM
      it's been resolved...there is no proof that Kate ever said it

      Thank you, as no proof she didn't either I presume, cheers



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 01, 2015, 10:18:51 PM
      Wonder if you have an independent cite for Bob Small saying that.

      I know you are quoting Mercury, who in turn is misquoting Amaral, who (Amaral!) attributed that remark to Stuart Prior, not Bob Small.

      Neither Prior's report nor Small's has ever appeared on line.

      But otherwise, close ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:20:17 PM
      Tell us what they have found the einstein

      he's dead, they don't need to find him, he never went missing
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 10:21:17 PM
      Tell us what they have found the einstein

      Oh you know the answer to that one already. 8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:21:32 PM
      he's dead, they don't need to find him, he never went missing

      did you read that in a book
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:22:14 PM
      Oh you know the answer to that one already. 8)-)))

      no I don't and neither do you...fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:23:01 PM
      did you read that in a book

      Stop embarrassing yourself, by attempting to put strangers down thereby bigging yourself up, it's real sad to see, quite pathetic
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 10:23:51 PM
      I reckon it's something you do on a regular basis

      Is that the best you can come up with ?

       8(*(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 10:24:50 PM
      no I don't and neither do you...fact

      So what have they  found. ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:26:18 PM
      So what have they  found. ?

      read the post Einstein..
      no I don't and neither do you...fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:27:36 PM
      So what have they  found. ?

      The new detective Nicola Hall? Renowned apparently for solving cases quickly, taking no prisoners etc you get the picture, has made no embarrassing gmtv interviews or released any info or answered questions at any press conference, or made any crimewatch pleas,, it's in her hands at the mo, we know nothing...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:28:27 PM
      Par for the course.

      Against forum rules dave.

      Yet you keep doing exactly the same 5hing.

      I thought you liked an open playing field....now you bleat about forum rules
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 10:28:41 PM
      read the post Einstein..
      no I don't and neither do you...fact


      Madeleine hasn't been found, and neither has an 'abductor'.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:30:17 PM
      The new detective Nicola Hall? Renowned apparently for solving cases quickly, taking no prisoners etc you get the picture, has made no embarrassing gmtv interviews or released any info or answered questions at any press conference, or made any crimewatch pleas,, it's in her hands at the mo, we know nothing...

      That's exactly right...we know nothing...but Stephen thinks he knows exactly what SY have found...good you agree with me on this one..over to you stephen
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 01, 2015, 10:31:08 PM
      I thought you liked an open playing field....now you bleat about forum rules

      It's you who do that dave when you belittle other peop!es intelligence, then you run to the mods when yoiu get a taste of your own medicine.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:33:00 PM
      That's exactly right...we know nothing...but Stephen thinks he knows exactly what SY have found...good you agree with me on this one..over to you stephen

      it would take a straight jacket for me to agree to agree with you sunshine...the point which went over you're not very intelligent head after all was, Nicola Hall might not be playing ball....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:34:02 PM
      Hey who has been swanking about his tackle and about his Mathematical abilities and about his Chemistry abilities

      Talk about bigging YOURself up !  Jeez, it has been quite embarrasing to see.

      and then he claims Water Vapour is not a gas...well it is Stephen..a very important gas...look it up in one of your books
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 01, 2015, 10:34:53 PM
      So we are all agreed, Kate did not come into contact with any bodies prior to going to PdL?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:36:04 PM
      So we are all agreed, Kate did not come into contact with any bodies prior to going to PdL?

      she may have..or may not....do you have any record of her making any statement
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 10:37:22 PM
      OK I've had enough of the insults now. Get back on topic, please
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 01, 2015, 10:40:15 PM
      So we are all agreed, Kate did not come into contact with any bodies prior to going to PdL?

      I think it irrelevant whether she did or whether she didn't.

      The dogs would probably still have picked stuff up in their mouths just the same ...

      And Eddie would still not have been able to make up his mind whether he could detect a scent on the toy when it was hidden; or not detect one when he could pick it up and play with it.

      Why should discussion about Kate's professional duties be allowed to impinge upon discussion of the incompetent deployment of the dogs?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:42:44 PM
      so amaral got it all wrong...the alerts had no evidential reliability yet he claimed they proved Maddie died in the apartment. Fortunately other members of the PJ thought the alerts were proper BS
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 01, 2015, 10:42:52 PM
      So we are all agreed, Kate did not come into contact with any bodies prior to going to PdL?

      Seems likely she didn't.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:44:16 PM
      So we are all agreed, Kate did not come into contact with any bodies prior to going to PdL?
      no one can answer that, we have anecdotal evidence that a mention was made,(some say it's a vicious lie - but why would it be a vicious lie hmm)  she has stayed silent on the issue for some reason, so who knows?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:45:18 PM
      Seems likely she didn't.

      could be either way...very unlikely to have come into contact with 6...but of course there is no evidence she made that claim...but the sceptics don't seem concerned with the evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 01, 2015, 10:56:23 PM
      Please try and get back to the topic of the thread. Without insults and goading. Thanks
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 10:56:47 PM
      rather than ask me to do it why don't you just include it in your own post
      Wasn't asking you anythng sunshne...why don't you concentrate on your problem as to why a cadaver dog alerted in a flat where a missing child was last seen, your super duper brain should cre up with relevant possibilities
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 10:59:32 PM
      Wasn't asking you anythng sunshne...why don't you concentrate on your problem as to why a cadaver dog alerted in a flat where a missing child was last seen, your super duper brain should cre up with relevant possibilities

      I don't have a problem re the dogs...the alerts have no evidential reliability....according to the experts...ie the alerts are BS ...so much so that everyone who knows anything believes that Maddie may still be alive
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 11:07:25 PM
      Nope, not having non existent corroboration for remnant scent of death can't be called BS, only your posts can be called that, try exercising the grey matter a little, it might help

      that would be described as a quadruple negative and like most of your posts makes no sense...lets keep this simple....
      what do you think the alerts tell us
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 11:09:15 PM
      that would be described as a quadruple negative and like most of your posts makes no sense...lets keep this simple....
      what do you think the alerts tell us

      Nope, it is a fact there is no corroboration for remnant death scent picked up by dogs (barring confessions, remains found later which are linked back etc)

      So yes let's keep it simple
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 01, 2015, 11:13:30 PM
      Nope, it is a fact there is no corroboration for remnant death scent picked up by dogs (barring confessions, remains found later which are linked back etc)

      So yes let's keep it simple

      you are talking utter **...remains found later...so remains are going to be found later...cite please *&*%£ *&*%£ *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 01, 2015, 11:18:10 PM
      you are talking utter **...remains found later...so remains are going to be found later...cite please *&*%£ *&*%£ *&*%£

      I've always wondered what the problem is with yiu when you reply to a post, then you reply to the same post a second time stead of editing your first reply, oh well, enjoy you're psycopathic seeming writhing, Tara for now

      Oh and YES remains HAVE BEEN FOUND LATER that WERE at the place a CADAVER dog alerted to.... >>>>>>>
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 02, 2015, 01:30:25 AM

      All future Off Topic and Insulting Posts will be deleted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 02, 2015, 01:44:13 AM
      I've always wondered what the problem is with yiu when you reply to a post, then you reply to the same post a second time stead of editing your first reply, oh well, enjoy you're psycopathic seeming writhing, Tara for now

      Oh and YES remains HAVE BEEN FOUND LATER that WERE at the place a CADAVER dog alerted to.... >>>>>>>

      Given the number of places the cadaver dogs apparently alerted, I would think the likelihood of a cadaver having been there at some time during the last 100 years would be significantly higher than average.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 01:52:24 AM
      Given the number of places the cadaver dogs apparently alerted, I would think the likelihood of a cadaver having been there at some time during the last 100 years would be significantly higher than average.

      That's fine you're allowed to be deluded brainwashed biased or influenced

      Fact = Only place a cadaver dog alerted was last place a child was seen...YOUR problem....nite nite
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 02, 2015, 01:56:56 AM
      That's fine you're allowed to be deluded brainwashed biased or influenced

      Fact = Only place a cadaver dog alerted was last place a child was seen...YOUR problem....nite nite

      Madeleine was not last seen in the flower bed, the wardrobe or behind the sofa in 5a, nor was she seen in the Renault Scenic between 3 & 10 weeks later.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 02, 2015, 02:21:56 AM
      so amaral got it all wrong...the alerts had no evidential reliability yet he claimed they proved Maddie died in the apartment. Fortunately other members of the PJ thought the alerts were proper BS
      The alerts were vauable intelligence Dave1.
      It's remarkable thet you dont pick up on this:-
      If the clothing was unattended and laying in a wardrobe at the time, the later alert of it in NO WAY implies any guilt whatsoever of the individual person who happened to own the clothes but was 50m away and couldn't even see them, does it?
      Are you interested in proving this witness is innocent?  I have just given you a very good argument to prove that point - but you won't be interested. Why not?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 07:20:13 AM
      The alerts were vauable intelligence Dave1.
      It's remarkable thet you dont pick up on this:-
      If the clothing was unattended and laying in a wardrobe at the time, the later alert of it in NO WAY implies any guilt whatsoever of the individual person who happened to own the clothes but was 50m away and couldn't even see them, does it?
      Are you interested in proving this witness is innocent?  I have just given you a very good argument to prove that point - but you won't be interested. Why not?

      I'm not interested in proving any witness innocent..it's impossible....people have to be proved guilty.
      The alerts are totally meaningless. I don't think there was ever a cadaver in 5A..Certainly not long enough for remnant scent to develop
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 07:55:25 AM

      We are merely pointing out, calmly and rationally, why the alerts are not worth an incriminating bean.

      Ask the experts like Mark Harrison and Corte Real (from the Portuguese lab) ...

      It is the people trying to suggest otherwise that are having apoplectic fits.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 02, 2015, 08:29:49 AM
      We are merely pointing out, calmly and rationally, why the alerts are not worth an incriminating bean.

      Ask the experts like Mark Harrison and Corte Real (from the Portuguese lab) ...

      It is the people trying to suggest otherwise that are having apoplectic fits.

      The dog alerts are not worthless they indicate areas to be forensically tested. Forensics are not yet able to extract usable information in all cases. UK law does not allow uncorroborated dig alerts as evidence, hence Grimes caveats.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 02, 2015, 08:31:35 AM
      The dog alerts are not worthless they indicate areas to be forensically tested. Forensics are not yet able to extract usable information in all cases. UK law does not allow uncorroborated dig alerts as evidence, hence Grimes caveats.
      what's UK law got to do with anything?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 08:34:30 AM
      The dog alerts are not worthless they indicate areas to be forensically tested. Forensics are not yet able to extract usable information in all cases. UK law does not allow uncorroborated dig alerts as evidence, hence Grimes caveats.

      So what do the alerts tell us
      Can you answer that question because no one else can
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 02, 2015, 08:37:28 AM
      The only visible fits are those like you DESPERATELY trying to discredit the dogs indications for all you are worth.

      If they had no value you would not be typing day in day out on this topic.
      why are you desperately trying to persuade us that the dog alerts have evidential value?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 08:38:38 AM
      However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

      Mark Harrison.

      Who are these people who pretend to know better than the experts?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2015, 08:41:17 AM
      why are you desperately trying to persuade us that the dog alerts have evidential value?

      Desperate ???

      They are indications.

      2 options, a body was detected or there wasn't.

      Now tell me alfred, what else has emerged in this case ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 02, 2015, 08:41:44 AM
      what's UK law got to do with anything?

      In other legal jurisdictions, uncorroborated dog alerts are accepted as evidence.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 02, 2015, 08:43:09 AM
      However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

      Mark Harrison.

      Who are these people who pretend to know better than the experts?

      Mark Harrison wasn't the expert.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 08:43:41 AM
      In other legal jurisdictions, uncorroborated dog alerts are accepted as evidence.

      Any reputable court in the world would have slung out dogs' reactions from the (shelved) Madeleine enquiry.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 02, 2015, 08:44:19 AM
      In other legal jurisdictions, uncorroborated dog alerts are accepted as evidence.
      The McCanns would not have been tried in the UK, so what has UK law got to do with it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 08:44:32 AM
      Mark Harrison wasn't the expert.

      Then who was?

      You?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 02, 2015, 08:46:14 AM
      Desperate ???

      They are indications.

      2 options, a body was detected or there wasn't.

      Now tell me alfred, what else has emerged in this case ?
      So the alerts tell us there was a 50/50 chance that a corpse lay in Apt 5a.  Big wow. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 02, 2015, 08:46:26 AM
      Then who was?

      You?

      Grime
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 02, 2015, 08:47:48 AM
      The McCanns would not have been tried in the UK, so what has UK law got to do with it?

      It was a report by a UK policeman.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2015, 08:50:22 AM
      So the alerts tell us there was a 50/50 chance that a corpse lay in Apt 5a.  Big wow.

      Not quite alfred.

      More like 80/20.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 08:52:22 AM
      Grime

      Do you consider it coincidence that Grime wore the protective anti-cross contamination gear of his trade for just one inspection (the inspection of the vehicles)?

      Do you consider it a further coincidence that he was handed that video so that he could use it to promote himself in his (further) progression of his career as a freelance dog handler?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 09:07:38 AM


      Any answer to this yet?

      Do you consider it coincidence that Grime wore the protective anti-cross contamination gear of his trade for just one inspection (the inspection of the vehicles)?

      Do you consider it a further coincidence that he was handed that video so that he could use it to promote himself in his (further) progression of his career as a freelance dog handler?
      Modify message
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2015, 09:11:39 AM
      Any answer to this yet?

      Do you consider it coincidence that Grime wore the protective anti-cross contamination gear of his trade for just one inspection (the inspection of the vehicles)?

      Do you consider it a further coincidence that he was handed that video so that he could use it to promote himself in his (further) progression of his career as a freelance dog handler?
      Modify message

      TWO QUESTIONS.


      Were you there ?

      Second, have you seen the unedited videos of the dogs searches ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 02, 2015, 09:14:42 AM

      Stephen tells us that either a body was detected or it wasn't.  As far as I'm concerned that's no better than a 50/50 guess.  Now tell me different.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 02, 2015, 09:33:34 AM
      However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

      Mark Harrison.

      Who are these people who pretend to know better than the experts?

      It may have dawned on Harrison that the PJ were placing too much store on the mere fact that the dogs alerted.

      If he'd followed the news at all, the PJ were dropping the hint that she may have died in the apartment as early as 4 August and that the parents / T9 would have known so as of 5 August.


      in Sol on August 4, 2007:

      a report by Felicia Cabrita with Margarida Davim


      Looking for Maddie’s body

      (...)

      Sol could find out that the English dogs are trained for different tasks. One, to detect human remains originating from dead flesh, and the other one to detect human blood or fluids. A specialist that was contacted by Sol explains that the technique of these animals rests on scientific bases, and that while “one of the dogs can distinguish between natural death or death by accident that does not involve bloodshed, the other one can diagnose whether someone died a violent death, with bloodshed or other spilled fluids”.

      Tuesday night, a black and white springer spaniel that is trained to detect death, spent several hours in the apartment that the McCann family occupied in the Ocean Club resort, and from where Maddie disappeared on May 3. According to sources within the investigation, the dog marked the death of the child inside the apartment.




      Madeleine possibly killed in the apartment

      by Tânia Laranjo / Henrique Machado / Paulo Marcelino - 05Aug2007
      (...)
      Policia Judiciaria (PJ) believes that Madeleine may have been killed in the Algarve apartment where she spent her holidays with her parents and siblings, in May. The specially trained dogs from the english police, cocker spaniel, that have been sniffing for the trail of the missing child, have detected residues that point to the presence of a corpse on those premises.
      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic159.html

      And a different version (also CdM):
      (...)
      The lead that is now being followed by authorities, which was revealed by ‘Sol’ yesterday and confirmed by CM, complements another piece of data that misled the PJ’s elements at the beginning of the investigation. A sniffer dog used by GNR tracked the child between the apartment where Madeleine was sleeping and another house within the same resort, which led elements from PJ to never dismiss the possibility that the girl was taken by someone who knew her.

      The clue that was now detected in the McCanns’ apartment refocuses the investigation on the close circle to the girl’s parents and friends, although it sheds no light on the reasons that led to the child’s death. PJ is being especially careful in this phase, and the names of the main suspects are omitted.

      (...)

      CM could further discover that the investigation met a turnaround over the last few weeks. The arrival of the english dogs and their presence in the holiday apartment has the purpose to confirm that possibility, given the fact that suspicions are now centered on the McCanns’ close circle, the only persons who can explain the alleged death of the child, while still at home.

      The kidnapping theory, according to a source with PJ that was contacted by CM, is being increasingly dismissed, as it would only fit a scenario where the child would have been alive. Yesterday’s searches, which were duly ordered by a court, started around 7.30 a.m.

      Corpse in the house for over 2 hours

      The body only smells like a corpse at least two hours after dead, “until that point it remains warm and transmits a living person’s smell to the dog”, subcomissaire Paulo Brissos, a former second commander of the PSP’s sniffer dog operation team, has guaranteed to CM.

      This means that for the english authorities’ thingyer spaniel to have marked the death of Madeleine within the apartment where she slept, at the ‘Ocean Club’, the girl had to be dead inside the apartment for “between 2 and 4 hours”.

      And by 6 August the story had got mangled - with claims that "blood" had been found in the parents' bedroom. :

      Jornal de Noticias6.8.07

      Blood in the McCanns’ bedroom

      Traces of blood from a dead person, presumably from little Madeleine, have been discovered on a wall in the bedroom that was occupied by the McCann couple, in the apartment at the ‘Ocean Club’, in Lagos, from where the girl vanished on May 3. This fact locates the child’s death inside the apartment, but the investigators do not take it as certain that this was a homicide, although according to the clues that were collected by forensics experts, somebody tried to clean up these traces. On the contrary, JN knows that the explanation that is seen as more likely at the moment to explain Maddie’s death – practically given as certain – is that this was an accident.

      New elements of proof were apparently discovered early last week, through the use of dogs that are specially trained to detect the biological residues of dead persons, independently of the time that has passed after they were left. Investigators are convinced that the blood belongs to Madeleine, but they wait for more detailed analysis in order to confirm their suspicions.

      The day before yesterday and in the early morning yesterday, the McCanns’ apartment was still being subject to intense technical examinations by the PJ’s technical staff, namely using ultra-violet light sources. JN could witness that numerous pictures were also taken.

      New interrogations

      The discovery has led to an entirely new perspective on this case and may focus the investigation on the child’s family circle and the McCanns’ close friends. The possibility of new interrogations on these persons has not been dismissed.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 09:41:53 AM


      You have no data to arrive at such a specific figure
      I challenged this before and you were unable to back it up
      So on what data do you claim80/20 as the probability there was a cadaver in the apartment
      That claim is rubbish without supporting data
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2015, 09:44:54 AM

      You have no data to arrive at such a specific figure
      I challenged this before and you were unable to back it up
      So on what data do you claim80/20 as the probability there was a cadaver in the apartment
      That claim is rubbish without supporting data

      Go believing that dave.

      Meanwhile keep posting your claims  which have no backup whatsoever.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 09:47:09 AM
      Go believing that dave.

      Meanwhile keep posting your claims  which have no backup whatsoever.

      you cannot make a specific claim with no data...what you have proved is that you are no scientist
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 02, 2015, 10:00:38 AM
      Stephen tells us that either a body was detected or it wasn't.  As far as I'm concerned that's no better than a 50/50 guess.  Now tell me different.

      Is it that simple, though?

      Without knowing how many decomposing human substances are within his training parameters and how many of those can only relate to the presence of a deceased person at some point, and how many of those could be either / or (living or dead), how can that probability be ascertained?

      And that's without factoring in a error ratio.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2015, 10:04:30 AM
      you cannot make a specific claim with no data...what you have proved is that you are no scientist

      Refer to the study dave.

      It would help.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 10:51:54 AM
      Refer to the study dave.

      It would help.

      you cannot take one study and use those figures...junk science at it's worse...

      there are many more factors involved
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2015, 11:09:56 AM
      you cannot take one study and use those figures...junk science at it's worse...

      there are many more factors involved

      in your opinion.

      and what is that worth, more than anyone else's ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 11:26:02 AM
      in your opinion.

      and what is that worth, more than anyone else's ?

      As much as yours
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 11:30:37 AM
      It may have dawned on Harrison that the PJ were placing too much store on the mere fact that the dogs alerted.

      If he'd followed the news at all, the PJ were dropping the hint that she may have died in the apartment as early as 4 August and that the parents / T9 would have known so as of 5 August.


      in Sol on August 4, 2007:

      a report by Felicia Cabrita with Margarida Davim


      Looking for Maddie’s body

      (...)

      Sol could find out that the English dogs are trained for different tasks. One, to detect human remains originating from dead flesh, and the other one to detect human blood or fluids. A specialist that was contacted by Sol explains that the technique of these animals rests on scientific bases, and that while “one of the dogs can distinguish between natural death or death by accident that does not involve bloodshed, the other one can diagnose whether someone died a violent death, with bloodshed or other spilled fluids”.

      Tuesday night, a black and white springer spaniel that is trained to detect death, spent several hours in the apartment that the McCann family occupied in the Ocean Club resort, and from where Maddie disappeared on May 3. According to sources within the investigation, the dog marked the death of the child inside the apartment.




      Madeleine possibly killed in the apartment

      by Tânia Laranjo / Henrique Machado / Paulo Marcelino - 05Aug2007
      (...)
      Policia Judiciaria (PJ) believes that Madeleine may have been killed in the Algarve apartment where she spent her holidays with her parents and siblings, in May. The specially trained dogs from the english police, cocker spaniel, that have been sniffing for the trail of the missing child, have detected residues that point to the presence of a corpse on those premises.
      http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic159.html

      And a different version (also CdM):
      (...)
      The lead that is now being followed by authorities, which was revealed by ‘Sol’ yesterday and confirmed by CM, complements another piece of data that misled the PJ’s elements at the beginning of the investigation. A sniffer dog used by GNR tracked the child between the apartment where Madeleine was sleeping and another house within the same resort, which led elements from PJ to never dismiss the possibility that the girl was taken by someone who knew her.

      The clue that was now detected in the McCanns’ apartment refocuses the investigation on the close circle to the girl’s parents and friends, although it sheds no light on the reasons that led to the child’s death. PJ is being especially careful in this phase, and the names of the main suspects are omitted.

      (...)

      CM could further discover that the investigation met a turnaround over the last few weeks. The arrival of the english dogs and their presence in the holiday apartment has the purpose to confirm that possibility, given the fact that suspicions are now centered on the McCanns’ close circle, the only persons who can explain the alleged death of the child, while still at home.

      The kidnapping theory, according to a source with PJ that was contacted by CM, is being increasingly dismissed, as it would only fit a scenario where the child would have been alive. Yesterday’s searches, which were duly ordered by a court, started around 7.30 a.m.

      Corpse in the house for over 2 hours

      The body only smells like a corpse at least two hours after dead, “until that point it remains warm and transmits a living person’s smell to the dog”, subcomissaire Paulo Brissos, a former second commander of the PSP’s sniffer dog operation team, has guaranteed to CM.

      This means that for the english authorities’ thingyer spaniel to have marked the death of Madeleine within the apartment where she slept, at the ‘Ocean Club’, the girl had to be dead inside the apartment for “between 2 and 4 hours”.

      And by 6 August the story had got mangled - with claims that "blood" had been found in the parents' bedroom. :

      Jornal de Noticias6.8.07

      Blood in the McCanns’ bedroom

      Traces of blood from a dead person, presumably from little Madeleine, have been discovered on a wall in the bedroom that was occupied by the McCann couple, in the apartment at the ‘Ocean Club’, in Lagos, from where the girl vanished on May 3. This fact locates the child’s death inside the apartment, but the investigators do not take it as certain that this was a homicide, although according to the clues that were collected by forensics experts, somebody tried to clean up these traces. On the contrary, JN knows that the explanation that is seen as more likely at the moment to explain Maddie’s death – practically given as certain – is that this was an accident.

      New elements of proof were apparently discovered early last week, through the use of dogs that are specially trained to detect the biological residues of dead persons, independently of the time that has passed after they were left. Investigators are convinced that the blood belongs to Madeleine, but they wait for more detailed analysis in order to confirm their suspicions.

      The day before yesterday and in the early morning yesterday, the McCanns’ apartment was still being subject to intense technical examinations by the PJ’s technical staff, namely using ultra-violet light sources. JN could witness that numerous pictures were also taken.

      New interrogations

      The discovery has led to an entirely new perspective on this case and may focus the investigation on the child’s family circle and the McCanns’ close friends. The possibility of new interrogations on these persons has not been dismissed.

      Hmmmmm!

      Press reports may have played a part (if Harrison kept abreast of them).

      But clearly what did dawn on Harrison is that (whether knowingly or unknowingly, and the question which has long intrigued me) he was selling an unsustainable lie, and, as is plain from his summary of all searches, he simply stopped trying.

      Always a hostage to fortune to speculate on such things, but I think there's a chance that if Harrison hadn't shown that backbone, the McCanns might have landed still deeper in the mire than they did.

      At the same time, I am critical of Harrison that he didn't make more plain than he did his critique of Grime's heedless and cavalier approach.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 02, 2015, 12:59:49 PM
      Hmmmmm!

      Press reports may have played a part (if Harrison kept abreast of them).

      But clearly what did dawn on Harrison is that (whether knowingly or unknowingly, and the question which has long intrigued me) he was selling an unsustainable lie, and, as is plain from his summary of all searches, he simply stopped trying.

      Always a hostage to fortune to speculate on such things, but I think there's a chance that if Harrison hadn't shown that backbone, the McCanns might have landed still deeper in the mire than they did.

      At the same time, I am critical of Harrison that he didn't make more plain than he did his critique of Grime's heedless and cavalier approach.

      Harrison recommended Grime ... and it's not entirely clear why in particular.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 01:06:46 PM
      Not quite alfred.

      More like 80/20.
      I'm working at the moment but will show you where you are wrong later
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 02:25:23 PM
      Not quite alfred.

      More like 80/20.

      you are using the figure from the study you quoted...80% accuracy to support your figure. This is wrong on so many counts.
      Firstly the dogs were correct 80% of the time, that means if the dog alerted 5 times we would expect 4 to be correct and one wrong. so if Eddie alerted 5 times ...based on your reasoning....we would expect 4 of those alerts to be 100% correct.....they patently were not....therefore your reasoning is flawed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2015, 02:38:58 PM
      you are using the figure from the study you quoted...80% accuracy to support your figure. This is wrong on so many counts.
      Firstly the dogs were correct 80% of the time, that means if the dog alerted 5 times we would expect 4 to be correct and one wrong. so if Eddie alerted 5 times ...based on your reasoning....we would expect 4 of those alerts to be 100% correct.....they patently were not....therefore your reasoning is flawed

      Inconclusive forensic results, does not mean the dogs indicated incorrectly dave.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 02:44:37 PM
      Inconclusive forensic results, does not mean the dogs indicated incorrectly dave.

      We need a watertight definition of correct, and of incorrect.

      The only two definitions relevant to the quest to discover the truth of what happened to Madeleine are:

      Correct (results which reveal information germane to the quest).

      Incorrect (results which reveal nothing germane to the quest).

      All forensic results from the shelved enquiry (including the alert to Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the car) came into the second category. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2015, 02:45:53 PM
      We need a watertight definition of correct, and of incorrect.

      The only two definitions relevant to the quest to discover the truth of what happened to Madeleine are:

      Correct (results which reveal information germane to the quest).

      Incorrect (results which reveal nothing germane to the quest).

      All forensic results from the shelved enquiry (including the alert to Gerry's blood on the ignition key of the car) came into the second category.

      Unfortunately, the mccanns and associates contaminated the crime scene.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 02:48:04 PM
      Do you have any relevant comments to make?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 02:56:20 PM
      Inconclusive forensic results, does not mean the dogs indicated incorrectly dave.
      .
      So you cannot question my logic which shows your80/20
      Estimate to be total rubbish
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 02, 2015, 03:07:05 PM
      Do you have any relevant comments to make?

      I already have on here and elsewhere.

      Meanwhile your obsession and libel of Grime continues unabated, and you are a complete amateur dog 'expert' with no practical experience whatsoever of using dogs at crime scenes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 02, 2015, 03:13:15 PM

      Getting nasty.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 02, 2015, 03:31:18 PM
      Unfortunately, the mccanns and associates contaminated the crime scene.


      Were the McCanns and their associates taking fingerprints and in charge of the police dogs then?

      Quote

      Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints, and an enormous quantity of hairs probably of animal (dog) origin that made it difficult to find possible traces, especially in the bedroom of two single beds and two children's cots from where the minor disappeared, and next to the aluminium window/door leading from inside the living room to the exterior area behind the apartment.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 02, 2015, 06:06:47 PM
      Unfortunately, the mccanns and associates contaminated the crime scene.

      Who do you call "associates"? Aside from the parents and a few of the T7, hotel staff were in there as well as GNR officers and presumably at least one dog, according to the forensic report. Were the PJ officers in forensic suits when they turned up?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 02, 2015, 06:33:55 PM
      Harrison recommended Grime ... and it's not entirely clear why in particular.

      I do seem to recall (and sadly cannot remember where from so don't shoot me) that Harrison was in the past a dog handler, and had worked with Grime. 

      So that may be why he was specifically recommended   
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 02, 2015, 06:46:29 PM
      I do seem to recall (and sadly cannot remember where from so don't shoot me) that Harrison was in the past a dog handler, and had worked with Grime. 

      So that may be why he was specifically recommended

      That rang a bell as well...

      ETA: It doesn't seem as if Harrison was a handler, but somehow involved in promoting Keela...

      Thanks to Pathfinder's find on an earlier thread:

      Keela's Nose Makes Her Top Dog
      11:52, UK, Friday 30 December 2005

      Her handler, PC Martin Grime, has been responsible for training Keela, along with National Search Adviser Mark Harrison, since June last year.

      A South Yorkshire force spokeswoman said the crime scene investigation dog has saved more then £200,000 nationally since April this year, helping with investigations in Ireland, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Surrey and the Thames Valley areas.

      In the New Year, Keela will be travelling to America to assist the FBI with two murder inquiries.

      http://news.sky.com/story/395084/keelas-nose-makes-her-top-dog

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6106.msg213570#msg213570
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 06:52:45 PM
      There's also this, from Grime's PdL profile:

      I am an U.K.A.C.P.O. accredited police dog training instructor in post at the

      Operational Support Services. I am a Subject Matter Expert registered with N.C.P.E.

      and specialist homicide canine search advisor. In support of the national Homicide

      Search Advisor, Mark Harrison, I advise Domestic and International Law

      enforcement agencies on the operational deployment of Police Dogs in the role of

      Homicide investigation.


      It seems that claim was investigated by the enquiry into Haut de la Garenne and found to be untrue ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 07:02:52 PM
      From Operation Rectangle

      there is an e-mail exchange between him [CO Power] and
      DCO HARPER dated 10 May 2008 in which CO POWER raises the
      question of the continued use of Martin GRIME and his EVRD. He
      says ‘Lenny, it has struck me for some time that he [Mr GRIME] is an
      expensive resource who has more than his fair shared of down time’.
      DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him
      though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search
      coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks.
      Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the
      matter further.
      3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate.
      Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully
      employed.
      In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject
      Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement
      Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise
      Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
      operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
      investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
      evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay
      purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 08:13:13 PM
      I do seem to recall (and sadly cannot remember where from so don't shoot me) that Harrison was in the past a dog handler, and had worked with Grime. 

      So that may be why he was specifically recommended

      Harrison in his national advisory role back in 2005 had gone and tested Keela and was impressed.
      (Source: South Yorkshire police kids' zone "dog diary" now defunct but available via the way back machine site)

      He wasn't her trainer or handler ever. AFAIAW. It is  also highly probable if not fact he knew of Eddie's work and training history. I expect these dogs were recommended on the basis of successes, much as some like to turn this into a potential "why did Harrison recommend a crook" theme!!

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 02, 2015, 08:15:54 PM
      Inconclusive forensic results, does not mean the dogs indicated incorrectly dave.

      Indeed. this is where people get all confused or try to confus other by putting their own take on things!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 08:22:26 PM
      Indeed. this is where people get all confused or try to confus other by putting their own take on things!

      I don't put my own take on things
      I simply accept what grime says
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 02, 2015, 08:25:38 PM
      I don't put my own take on things
      I simply accept what grime says

      apologies for typos- cold hands... brrr

      So what is the issue then?. The dogs alerted to something...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 08:34:21 PM
      Madeleine was not last seen in the flower bed, the wardrobe or behind the sofa in 5a, nor was she seen in the Renault Scenic between 3 & 10 weeks later.

      Madeleine was last seen in apartment 5a where at least two alerts by Eddie have not been blood or explained .....they remain indications/intelligence given by a cadaver dog....you know what I meant....

      When are we going to get a rolly eyes smiley?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 08:37:41 PM
      So what do the alerts tell us
      Can you answer that question because no one else can
      Grime says they suggest cadaverscent contaminant...somethng it seems you are incapable of letting sink in for some reason. There is exactly where the base lies, whatever is on top!

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 08:42:40 PM
      Grime says they suggest cadaverscent contaminant...somethng it seems you are incapable of letting sink in for some reason. There is exactly where the base lies, whatever is on top!

      you are right for once...he says they suggest...not that they confirm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 08:44:00 PM
      apologies for typos- cold hands... brrr

      So what is the issue then?. The dogs alerted to something...

      who says the dogs alerted to something

      according to the PJreport they did not alert until being repeatedly led back to places they had ignored
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 02, 2015, 08:48:21 PM
      who says the dogs alerted to something

      according to the PJreport they did not alert until being repeatedly led back to places they had ignored

      Grime?   the video... police files...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 08:50:26 PM
      Grime?   the video... police files...

      grime says the alerts are suggestive.....the videos are heavily edited...the police files question the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 02, 2015, 08:51:52 PM
      There's also this, from Grime's PdL profile:

      I am an U.K.A.C.P.O. accredited police dog training instructor in post at the

      Operational Support Services. I am a Subject Matter Expert registered with N.C.P.E.

      and specialist homicide canine search advisor. In support of the national Homicide

      Search Advisor, Mark Harrison, I advise Domestic and International Law

      enforcement agencies on the operational deployment of Police Dogs in the role of

      Homicide investigation.


      It seems that claim was investigated by the enquiry into Haut de la Garenne and found to be untrue ....


      I haven't seen anything about him being an advisor in canine deployment to be untrue.

      What seems to have gone wrong in Jersey was what you'd posted earlier in this thread: he ended up being the de facto deputy crime scene manager to the forensic service manager. And I haven't seen anything to suggest that he was qualified for that job.

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3566.msg263530#msg263530

      Reading up, FM.

      It was Harper who'd stated that Grime was "also the NPIA search
      coordinator". No idea where Harper got that idea from.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 08:54:52 PM
      you are right for once...he says they suggest...not that they confirm

      A) I am frequently right, sometimes wrong, not the other way around
      B) Suggest/indicate is good enough for me from a professional and ( officially said) an uncorroborated cadaver dog alert is justifiable cause for concern....especially if it is in the last place a missing person was......logic dictates this anyway....
      C) Unsure why you use the word confirm when no one else uses it here, is it because you are backtracking from...means nothing at all/rubbish ??

       8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 08:55:38 PM
      the role of the dogs was to detect forensically recoverable evidence...they didn't find any
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 08:56:31 PM
      grime says the alerts are suggestive.....the videos are heavily edited...the police files question the alerts

      You will have proof of this heavy editing then? can't wait....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 08:58:16 PM
      A) I am frequently right, sometimes wrong, not the other way around
      B) Suggest/indicate is good enough for me from a professional and ( officially said) an uncorroborated cadaver dog alert is justifiable cause for concern....especially if it is in the last place a missing person was......logic dictates this anyway....
      C) Unsure why you use the word confirm when no one else uses it here, is it because you are backtracking from...means nothing at all/rubbish ??

       8)--))

      might be good enough for you but that is of no consequence...I use the word confirm because that is the word used in the files re Grimes rogatory questions...it's rather an important word
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 08:59:27 PM
      You will have proof of this heavy editing then? can't wait....

      yes it is in the files.......it has already been discussed and accepted  to be true
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 09:30:53 PM

      I haven't seen anything about him being an advisor in canine deployment to be untrue.

      What seems to have gone wrong in Jersey was what you'd posted earlier in this thread: he ended up being the de facto deputy crime scene manager to the forensic service manager. And I haven't seen anything to suggest that he was qualified for that job.

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3566.msg263530#msg263530

      Reading up, FM.

      It was Harper who'd stated that Grime was "also the NPIA search
      coordinator". No idea where Harper got that idea from.

       His [Grime's] expertise lay purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.

      (Operation Rectangle)

      ETA.  Harper interpreted these words (of Grime's) as "search coordinator"

      I advise
      Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
      operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
      investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
      evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 09:43:12 PM
      might be good enough for you but that is of no consequence...I use the word confirm because that is the word used in the files re Grimes rogatory questions...it's rather an important word

      As things stand, the cadaver dog alerts remain as unconfirmed cadaverscent....reread the last word previous to "reread"
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 09:45:11 PM
      yes it is in the files.......it has already been discussed and accepted  to be true

      Is there any particular reason why you  never give links to support your statements? IE, in this case, where in the files is there proof that the dog videos have been heavily edited?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 09:45:51 PM
      As things stand, the cadaver dog alerts remain as unconfirmed cadaverscent....reread the last word previous to "reread"

      They stand as unconfirmed (as in meaningless)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 02, 2015, 09:46:04 PM
      yes it is in the files.......it has already been discussed and accepted  to be true

      Been discussed, not accepted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 09:46:58 PM
      Is there any particular reason why you  never give links to support your statements? IE, in this case, where in the files is there proof that the dog videos have been heavily edited?

      it's on this thread about a week ago...doesn't matter if you don't accept it...it's a fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 09:48:12 PM
      They stand as unconfirmed (as in meaningless)
      Only in your mind though FM not in reality
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 02, 2015, 09:48:44 PM
      it's on this thread about a week ago...doesn't matter if you don't accept it...it's a fact

      So only discussed then.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 09:49:39 PM
      Only in your mind though FM not in reality

      I shan't re-hash (yet again!) the words of Mark Harrison which confirms what I say as true.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 09:49:48 PM
      it's on this thread about a week ago...doesn't matter if you don't accept it...it's a fact

      Nothing is fact just because you say so, so yet, another example of laziness in not providing a link to back up statements, par for the course, oh well.... 1/10
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 09:50:57 PM
      Been discussed, not accepted.
      that's a matter of opinion

      the pj report criticises the alerts as the dogs were repeatedly led back after repeatedly ignoring locations...that's not an opinion..its afact...the videos have been edited so as not to show this..thats a fact too ..due you dispute the videos have been edited and show the alerts in a better light than they actually were
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 09:52:26 PM
      As things stand, the cadaver dog alerts remain as unconfirmed cadaverscent....reread the last word previous to "reread"

      that's right...unconfirmed...there is no evidence the dog alerted to cadaver odour
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 09:53:39 PM
      I shan't re-hash (yet again!) the words of Mark Harrison which confirms what I say as true.

      no, do not, we have all read them as well as other things a million times over, everyone knows what is in the files, the problem lies in the "interpretation" of

      Without "interpretation" Harrison said without corroboration the alerts remain unconfirmed indications.....it's not hard to work out what that means, and it does not mean meaningless...

      To be frank, I'm bored now, so carry on having fun with your libelling and twisting....

       &8#£%
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 09:54:56 PM
      no, do not, we have all read them as well as other things a million times over, everyone knows what is in the files, the problem lies in the "interpretation" of

      Without "interpretation" Harrison said without corroboration the alerts remain unconfirmed indications.....it's not hard to work out what that means, and it does not mean meaningless...

      To be frank, I'm bored now, so carry on having fun with your libelling and twisting....

       &8#£%

      so  what do the alerts mean.......you wont be able to answer that question
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 09:57:18 PM
      as no one can tell us what the alerts mean..they remain meaningless
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 09:57:55 PM
      that's right...unconfirmed...there is no evidence the dog alerted to cadaver odour

      Oh but a cadaver dog alerting is exactly that..a lot of the time....deal with it....the blank denial is breathtaking

      It seems in your mind Eddie may have been alerting to primroses as much as anythng else, plain logic tells us you are wrong....it is NOT meaningless when a CADAVER dog alerts...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 02, 2015, 09:59:33 PM
      Oh but a cadaver dog alerting is exactly that..a lot of the time....deal with it....the blank denial is breathtaking

      It seems in your mind Eddie may have been alerting to primroses as much as anythng else, plain logic tells us you are wrong...

      you are rambling..if you cannot tell us what the alerts mean they are meaningless..
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 10:02:33 PM
      Is there any particular reason why you  never give links to support your statements? IE, in this case, where in the files is there proof that the dog videos have been heavily edited?[/b]

      Can you produce a video of Eddie, literally, playing with cuddle cat?

      We know it be true that he did, because PJ Inspector Dias records it in his report (on line).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 10:19:59 PM
      you are rambling..if you cannot tell us what the alerts mean they are meaningless..no wonder you run away



      the alerts remain as indications...as stated by Harrison......a cadaver dog alerted....a cadaver dog is trained in death....pure logic tells you all you need to know, cue snap at heels rubbish, zzzzzzzzzzz
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 10:22:26 PM
      Can you produce a video of Eddie, literally, playing with cuddle cat?

      We know it be true that he did, because PJ Inspector Dias records it in his report (on line).

      the question was where was Davel's proof for what he said, ie that the evidence for a heavily edited video was in the files,one thing at a time dear, no twisting, derailing or obfuscation required
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 02, 2015, 10:33:44 PM
      the question was where was Davel's proof for what he said, ie that the evidence for a heavily edited video was in the files,one thing at a time dear, no twisting, derailing or obfuscation required

      The dog inspection videos weren't on the DVD, presumably. Whether they were available to any journalist who requested them isn't clear, either.

      The full footage of the dog inspections hasn't been made accessible, AFAIK. Have you seen footage of the dogs on the beach?

      There are most definitely edits to the footage in the extended clips that we have seen. I pointed one out the other day. Unless you were paying attention, you wouldn't have noticed that just after Grime says that he didn't intend to put Eddie in the car, there's a cut and Grime opens the door for Keela. In the meantime, the car had apparently undergone a forensic inspection on a different floor.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 10:35:04 PM
      the question was where was Davel's proof for what he said, ie that the evidence for a heavily edited video was in the files,one thing at a time dear, no twisting, derailing or obfuscation required

      I'm not aware of anything which states, in the files, that videos have been edited, if that's what you mean.

      But Dias' description of Eddie literally playing with cuddle-cat was once clear from the video of the inspection in the villa, but now no longer is, because someone (presumably Levy) has edited that sequence out.

      Also, does the video of the inspection in the gym now show the clothes being literally taken out of the cardboard boxes they were transported in?

      I'm genuinely not sure.

      But at one time, it certainly did.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 02, 2015, 10:39:37 PM
      The dog inspection videos weren't on the DVD, presumably. Whether they were available to any journalist who requested them isn't clear, either.

      The full footage of the dog inspections hasn't been made accessible, AFAIK. Have you seen footage of the dogs on the beach?

      There are most definitely edits to the footage in the extended clips that we have seen. I pointed one out the other day. Unless you were paying attention, you wouldn't have noticed that just after Grime says that he didn't intend to put Eddie in the car, there's a cut and Grime opens the door for Keela. In the meantime, the car had apparently undergone a forensic inspection on a different floor.

      The dog searches were hours and hours longer than the video, in that way it has been edited, who wants to see where the dogs roaming fields did not alert! The inference is it has been edited (and heavily) to show the Mccanns are guilty....which is quite franky silly any which way you look at it. the video shows the alerts...that's the important part.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 02, 2015, 10:54:00 PM
      Sweet dreams, Mercury ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2015, 07:31:53 AM
      Where's this report been hiding...

      I believe that this report was Feb 2008.

      From the screening of the videos, referred previously, done when the dogs were working, some doubts arise. We don't want and we can't take the place of the trainer, we only wish to alert, with this paragraph, to some facts, that according to us, need further clarification.

      If the dog is trained to react when he detects what he is looking for, why, in most of the cases, we see the dog passing more than once by that place in an uninterested way, until he finally signals the place where he had already passed several times'

      On one of the films, it's possible to see that 'Eddie' sniffs Madeleine's cuddle cat, more than once, bites it, throws it into the air and only after the toy is hidden does he 'mark' it (page 2099). Whys didn't he signal it when he sniffs it on the first time'

      Apart from all that was said about the dogs, we must also take into attention the results of the forensic analysis that was performed by the experts on the Scientific Police Laboratory on the day immediately after the facts, and already mentioned where no vestige of blood was found.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ANALYSIS-11-VOLUMES.htm

      Doesn't the red highlight ring any alarm bells...no wonder the arguido status was removed

      I would say that proves the videos have been heavily edited  to make the alerts seem more impressive than they actually are
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 03, 2015, 07:37:12 AM
      I would say that proves the videos have been heavily edited  to make the alerts seem more impressive than they actually are

      In reality to make a correct judgement, the unedited recordings would have to be viewed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 03, 2015, 07:40:29 AM
      In reality to make a correct judgement, the unedited recordings would have to be viewed.

      then we can make no judgement on the alerts themselves unless the full videos have been viewed...what we have is proof from the statement by the pj that they have been heavily edited
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 03, 2015, 07:43:23 AM
      Of course there was an edit  @)(++(*

      THE ENTIRE WORK WAS RECORDED IN IMAGE AND SOUND [on video]
      On 6 August 2007, at 15h17, a canine inspection was performed in the following motor cars, this
      being done on level -4 of the above-mentioned underground car park:
      [list of cars: Opel Corsa; Fiat Punto; Peugeot 205; Renault Scenic; Skodia Fabia; VW Transporter;
      Nissan Patrol; VW Passat; Audi A4; Renault Kangoo.]
      Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour,
      examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having
      been verified the following result:
      15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry
      and Kate McCann.

      Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert
      examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that
      began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela
      , that detects traces of human blood, it having
      been verified the following result:
      03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
      compartment of the car;

      04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
      which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type
      , with a key-ring of the
      Budget rental company.
      In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the
      map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car
      and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car
      park.
      At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
      System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
      At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
      key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
      At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire
      System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm[/list]
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 05, 2015, 08:27:57 PM
      I n view of what we understand about the alerts, does anyone condone what amaral said in his book.....

      From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)


      he uses the word "certainly"....does anyone think this is an acceptable statement from an experienced policeman
      He does not use the word "certainly".
      Mr Amaral writes in Portuguese not English.
      Here are the exact words he wrote. As Carana said, the portuguese word for "certainly" is not there.
      "Concluiu-se, então, que aquele odor de cadáver só poderia ser proveniente de uma pessoa: Madeleine Beth McCann"
      However "só poderia" translates as "could only" which has an equivalent meaning.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2015, 08:34:25 PM
      He does not use the word "certainly".
      Mr Amaral writes in Portuguese not English.
      Here are the exact words he wrote. As Carana said, the portuguese word for "certainly" is not there.
      "Concluiu-se, então, que aquele odor de cadáver só poderia ser proveniente de uma pessoa: Madeleine Beth McCann"

      " We conclude , then, that that cadaver odor could only come from a person : Madeleine Beth McCann " G Amaral

      Sounds pretty definitive to me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 08:36:00 PM
      " We conclude , then, that that cadaver odor could only come from a person : Madeleine Beth McCann " G Amaral

      Sounds pretty definitive to me.

      Well let's face it, if it was from a body,  who else would it have been from ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 05, 2015, 08:38:31 PM
      Well let's face it, if it was from a body,  who else would it have been from ?

      No No, it was the sea bass - or was it the menstrual fluids?  I forget.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 05, 2015, 08:43:03 PM
      No No, it was the sea bass - or was it the menstrual fluids?  I forget.

      There is a new apparent possibility...two kids had a fight and pulled each other's hair out....you never know, do you?

      ETA
      Source: The blog on Sadie's signature...sorry, can't link direct to the article, neither can I be bothered, but it is there if you wish to search
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 05, 2015, 08:46:01 PM
      No No, it was the sea bass - or was it the menstrual fluids?  I forget.

      Exactly Jassie ... you are beginning to get there ... nobody knows why Eddie woofed or what he woofed at and although he doesn't lie apparently, he can't tell us.  Which is why his woof means nothing without corroborating evidence ... of which there is none.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2015, 08:48:58 PM
      Well let's face it, if it was from a body,  who else would it have been from ?

      another one who  doesn't understand the evidence...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 05, 2015, 08:49:37 PM
      I meant to add, - so many excuses.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2015, 08:53:47 PM
      no one has been able to explain why the dogs ignored locations repeatedly before eventually alerting after being led back several times....alerts...meaningless
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 05, 2015, 09:02:07 PM
      no one has been able to explain why the dogs ignored locations repeatedly before eventually alerting after being led back several times....alerts...meaningless

      Deja vu.

      Try researching.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2015, 09:04:06 PM
      Deja vu.

      Try researching.

      I have researched
      No scent dogs behave like this
      They are led once down a line of ripple or objects and are not repeatedly called back
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 05, 2015, 09:07:29 PM
      no one has been able to explain why the dogs ignored locations repeatedly before eventually alerting after being led back several times....alerts...meaningless

      No one needs to, the professionals concluded the alerts were due to what the dogs were trained for, they were under no obligation to explain the minutiae of how dogs work and that should be the end of the story. But labour it ad infinitum, even Hercules stopped at 12
      Martin Grime is onLinkedIn...as a professional yourself garnering a thousand pound a day if you could, you could join and email him for the answer, it's not hard


      I have researched
      No scent dogs behave like this
      They are led once down a line of ripple or objects and are not repeatedly called back

      Rubbish. You quoted "drug and explosives dogs"...  A rather very very different scenario.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2015, 09:10:32 PM
      No one needs to, the professionals concluded the alerts were due to what the dogs were trained for, they were under no obligation to explain the minutiae of how dogs work and that should be the end of the story. But labour it ad infinitum, even Hercules stopped at 12
      Martin Grime is onLinkedIn...as a professional yourself garnering a thousand pound a day if you could, you could join and email him for the answer, it's not hard

      The professionals reached no such conclusion
      You are a perfect example of a sceptic who does not understand the evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 05, 2015, 09:14:16 PM
      The professionals reached no such conclusion
      You are a perfect example of a sceptic who does not understand the evidence

      You are so wrong on so many levels, and you also display to this forum every day 24/7 how much the thought of being so ills you, so much so that you can hardly make a single post without telling others who don't agree with you how wrong/illiterate/stupid/uneducated they are, it's quite sad you can't see that and stop making a fool of yourself constantly,  but that is just you, it's Ok, it's Ok to be YOU
      BUT it might help you and your arguments if you laid off the personal...you have tried it before and you must admit it works

       8((()*/
       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2015, 09:23:18 PM
      No one needs to, the professionals concluded the alerts were due to what the dogs were trained for, they were under no obligation to explain the minutiae of how dogs work and that should be the end of the story. But labour it ad infinitum, even Hercules stopped at 12
      Martin Grime is onLinkedIn...as a professional yourself garnering a thousand pound a day if you could, you could join and email him for the answer, it's not hard


      Rubbish. You quoted "drug and explosives dogs"...  A rather very very different scenario.

      A complete inability to understand the evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 05, 2015, 09:31:29 PM


      A complete inability to understand the evidence
      Most would understand the problem with phone predictive text and posting on a small screen
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 05, 2015, 10:51:24 PM
      I meant to add, - so many excuses.

      ...and all the excuses have to be valid for innocence.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 06, 2015, 10:56:03 AM

      That's it, Folks.  Back On Topic.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 06, 2015, 10:35:01 PM
      Eddie alerted at one place in the garden - why?.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 06, 2015, 11:15:26 PM
      Eddie alerted at one place in the garden - why?.

      Was Eddie's alert in the garden consistent in style with his other alerts?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 06, 2015, 11:22:57 PM
      Was Eddie's alert in the garden consistent in style with his other alerts?

      Not in the slightest ... I would have difficulty in recognising it as an alert at all in comparison to the occasions when he barked his head off.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 06, 2015, 11:31:29 PM
      Not in the slightest ... I would have difficulty in recognising it as an alert at all in comparison to the occasions when he barked his head off.


      It's odd - in one of the videos it sounds like a sneeze, in another which has the sound somewhat amplified the alert is a single bark. Either way, it's not how he was trained to alert.
       The dogs had spent a while with his nose in foliage so maybe a twig had got up his nose & hurt him.
      Quite how the corner of the garden could be worked into Amaral's thesis timeline of the 10 minute disposal has yet to be adequately explained.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 12:09:35 AM
      Was Eddie's alert in the garden consistent in style with his other alerts?

      Considering the alerts were correct in to alerting what was trained for and considering the lack  of physical remains, both garden and the verandah alerts (both one bark each IIRC) may well have been different to a concentrated and not a "dispersed in the environment remnant scent"





      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 12:19:02 AM
      Considering the alerts were correct in to alerting what was trained for and considering the lack  of physical remains, both garden and the verandah alerts (both one bark each IIRC) may well have been different to a concentrated and not a "dispersed in the environment remnant scent"

      Was Eddie trained to give different numbers of barks dependant on how concentrated the odour he was trained to detect actually smelt?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 01:06:05 AM
      Was Eddie trained to give different numbers of barks dependant on how concentrated the odour he was trained to detect actually smelt?
      I'm pretty sure he probably wasn't but
      Why are you asking me? I offered a layman's  opinion given the locations of the alerts...
      In the end all we have is  that Grime assessed his cadaver dog alerted to cadaverscent contaminant...(discounting the car where he said it could be blood due to both dogs alerting separately and together to a certain spot)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 01:10:52 AM
      Was Eddie trained to give different numbers of barks dependant on how concentrated the odour he was trained to detect actually smelt?

      No but any outdoor scent would be weaker if a death happened in the apartment. If there was a body inside then it had to be moved out and Eddie indicated the way. If you leave that way you can see the tapas table and if the coast is clear and if it wasn't then any body would have to be placed down out of sight. MG wanted to further investigate that area with his dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 01:21:07 AM
      No but any outdoor scent would be weaker if a death happened in the apartment. If there was a body inside then it had to be moved out and Eddie indicated the way. If you leave that way you can see the tapas table and if the coast is clear and if it wasn't then any body would have to be placed down out of sight. MG wanted to further investigate that area with his dogs.

      Can you see up & down the street Rua DFGM from the balcony?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 01:36:58 AM
      Can you see up & down the street Rua DFGM from the balcony?

      You could see if any checkers had left the table. Body next to the wall in the garden and retrieve it after checking all his clear. That is a safer way because you are not seen carrying anything until you know it's clear. The dark path was a safer route if it was never used at night. Jes used the lit road pavement route and so did the checkers so it would be foolish to go the same way.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 01:44:14 AM
      You could see if any checkers had left the table. Body next to the wall in the garden and retrieve it after checking all his clear. That is a safer way because you are not seen carrying anything until you know it's clear. The dark path was a safe route if it was never used at night. Jes used the lit road pavement route and so did the checkers so it would be foolish to go that same way.

      Can you see people who may be walking up & down the street Rua DFGM from the balcony or the garden - or do you have to exit the garden gate first? Simple question.
      At the time you claim move 1 took place Jez's route did not enter into the equation.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 07, 2015, 07:54:59 AM
      No one needs to, the professionals concluded the alerts were due to what the dogs were trained for, they were under no obligation to explain the minutiae of how dogs work and that should be the end of the story. But labour it ad infinitum, even Hercules stopped at 12
      Martin Grime is onLinkedIn...as a professional yourself garnering a thousand pound a day if you could, you could join and email him for the answer, it's not hard


      Rubbish. You quoted "drug and explosives dogs"...  A rather very very different scenario.

      Quote- the professionals concluded the alerts were due to what the dogs were trained for unquote
      Yes,  true,  which could have been pig blood in Eddie's case,   or scent left from something that was there and then removed [another professional]
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2015, 09:38:32 AM
      Quote- the professionals concluded the alerts were due to what the dogs were trained for unquote
      Yes,  true,  which could have been pig blood in Eddie's case,   or scent left from something that was there and then removed [another professional]

      You've been consuming too many pork pies.  8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 10:28:51 AM
      Can you see people who may be walking up & down the street Rua DFGM from the balcony or the garden - or do you have to exit the garden gate first? Simple question.
      At the time you claim move 1 took place Jez's route did not enter into the equation.

      You only have to look out over the side gate in both directions. Very simple. I showed a safer way - retrieving from the wall separating the McCann/Oldfield apartments and taking the dark path route.

      (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Bal.png)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 02:05:42 PM
      You only have to look out over the side gate in both directions. Very simple. I showed a safer way - retrieving from the wall separating the McCann/Oldfield apartments and taking the dark path route.

      (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Bal.png)

      Did Eddie indicate in the location to which you refer?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 02:21:29 PM
      Did Eddie indicate in the location to which you refer?

      Eddie indicated the garden and MG wanted to further investigate it. You can simply check up and down the road and leave by the side gate. It only takes seconds to get on to the dark path.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 07, 2015, 02:23:21 PM
      Eddie indicated the garden and MG wanted to further investigate it. You can simply check up and down the road and leave by the side gate. It only takes seconds to get on to the dark path.

      Is this the path that is closed off by a high wall at the far end?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 02:29:23 PM
      Is this the path that is closed off by a high wall at the far end?

      Yes there is a dead end but not if you use the middle path. The path in front of the gardens then the middle path to Block 4 car park and out across to the wasteland. The checkers and Jes used the road route so the inside path route is safer.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 02:37:47 PM
      Eddie indicated the garden and MG wanted to further investigate it. You can simply check up and down the road and leave by the side gate. It only takes seconds to get on to the dark path.


      Did Eddie indicate in the precise area in the garden where you state the body was retrieved from?
      And you still haven't explained why the gate handles weren't contaminated.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 07, 2015, 02:40:06 PM
      Eddie indicated the garden and MG wanted to further investigate it. You can simply check up and down the road and leave by the side gate. It only takes seconds to get on to the dark path.

      Where is it stated Grime wanted to further investigate the garden?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 02:50:37 PM

      Did Eddie indicate in the precise area in the garden where you state the body was retrieved from?
      And you still haven't explained why the gate handles weren't contaminated.

      I haven't mentioned nothing about gate handles and everybody uses handles. You won't catch anyone that way. There is a possibility that somebody came but it doesn't mean Smithman didn't leave the side gate way and get to the path in seconds. What is important is how it was done and who had the opportunity and was later seen with the lookalike child. As the only people seen out on the streets that night were crecheman, Jes and the checkers it is easy to leave with a child (if you know everyone else is still at the table - patio side exit) without being noticed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 07, 2015, 03:16:32 PM

      Did Eddie indicate in the precise area in the garden where you state the body was retrieved from?
      And you still haven't explained why the gate handles weren't contaminated.


      What sort of contamination are you thinking of?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 03:26:43 PM
      I haven't mentioned nothing about gate handles and everybody uses handles. You won't catch anyone that way. There is a possibility that somebody came but it doesn't mean Smithman didn't leave the side gate way and get to the path in seconds. What is important is how it was done and who had the opportunity and was later seen with the lookalike child. As the only people seen out on the streets that night were crecheman, Jes and the checkers it is easy to leave with a child (if you know everyone else is still at the table - patio side exit) without being noticed.

      I won't mention the fact that whoever moved the cadaver-leaking corpse didn't have their clothes contaminated.
      I won't that whoever moved the cadaver-leaking corpse did so without contaminating their hands.

      The Sperrys went to dinner at the Tapas Bar.
      The Carpenters left the Tapas Bar.
      The Moyses walked back to their apartment.
      The Edmonds left the Tapas Bar.
      JW was walking around with his child in the pushchair.
      Just a few off the top of my head.
      The cleaning supervisor (whose name I will look up) was wandering around in Block 4.

      All within your timeframe for the first move. Yet no-one saw your carrier. Was that because it just didn't happen the way you said?
      Eddie gave a possible indication in the flowerbed immediately underneath the verandah according to Grime. How does that fit in with the verandah & the wardrobe in thesis' timeline?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 03:28:21 PM

      What sort of contamination are you thinking of?

      The same sort of contamination that Amaral believed showed the McCanns concealed & disposed of a cadaver.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 07, 2015, 03:30:56 PM
      I won't mention the fact that whoever moved the cadaver-leaking corpse didn't have their clothes contaminated.
      I won't that whoever moved the cadaver-leaking corpse did so without contaminating their hands.

      The Sperrys went to dinner at the Tapas Bar.
      The Carpenters left the Tapas Bar.
      The Moyses walked back to their apartment.
      The Edmonds left the Tapas Bar.
      JW was walking around with his child in the pushchair.
      Just a few off the top of my head.
      The cleaning supervisor (whose name I will look up) was wandering around in Block 4.

      All within your timeframe for the first move. Yet no-one saw your carrier. Was that because it just didn't happen the way you said?
      Eddie gave a possible indication in the flowerbed immediately underneath the verandah according to Grime. How does that fit in with the verandah & the wardrobe in thesis' timeline?

      That's a very good question ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 07, 2015, 03:44:52 PM
      I won't mention the fact that whoever moved the cadaver-leaking corpse didn't have their clothes contaminated.
      I won't that whoever moved the cadaver-leaking corpse did so without contaminating their hands.

      The Sperrys went to dinner at the Tapas Bar.
      The Carpenters left the Tapas Bar.
      The Moyses walked back to their apartment.
      The Edmonds left the Tapas Bar.
      JW was walking around with his child in the pushchair.
      Just a few off the top of my head.
      The cleaning supervisor (whose name I will look up) was wandering around in Block 4.

      All within your timeframe for the first move. Yet no-one saw your carrier. Was that because it just didn't happen the way you said?
      Eddie gave a possible indication in the flowerbed immediately underneath the verandah according to Grime. How does that fit in with the verandah & the wardrobe in thesis' timeline?


      Indeed, it would seem almost impossible for any sort of abduction to take place at all, given all that activity you describe.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 07, 2015, 03:47:50 PM

      Indeed, it would seem almost impossible for any sort of abduction to take place at all, given all that activity you describe.

      And yet possible for the McCanns to have done something nefarious with Madeleine?

      How do you work that out?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 07, 2015, 03:51:02 PM
      ...
      The cleaning supervisor (whose name I will look up) was wandering around in Block 4.
      ...
      Maria Vegas.

      The English version of her statement looks a little out of kilter and I haven't checked the Portuguese.

      However it looks like she was in block 2, opposite block 5, until 8:30, then went to blocks 3 and 4 of Ocean Club Gardens.  These blocks are north of the Millennium.  She worked there until 9:20 and went home.

      Possibly she returned to the laundry, near the Tapas area e.g. to lock up, but she simply says she went home.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 07, 2015, 03:53:47 PM
      And yet possible for the McCanns to have done something nefarious with Madeleine?

      How do you work that out?

      I agree. Almost impossible for anything to have happened, yet it did.
      If there could have been time for an abduction, there would be clearly the same amount of time for an inside job.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 04:01:37 PM

      Indeed, it would seem almost impossible for any sort of abduction to take place at all, given all that activity you describe.

      That's because the abduction happened at around 9.30pm, not in the period when there was so much activity.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 07, 2015, 04:04:14 PM
      That's because the abduction happened at around 9.30pm, not in the period when there was so much activity.


      Really?  How do we know that for certain? 
      She wasn't seen by anyone between Gerry's visit  at 9 ish and Kate's at 10 ish
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 07, 2015, 04:06:37 PM
      I agree. Almost impossible for anything to have happened, yet it did.
      If there could have been time for an abduction, there would be clearly the same amount of time for an inside job.

      No.

      Because the McCanns movements are accounted for (Gerry was at the restaurant at the time of Kate's alert) and there are two possible sightings of the abductor. 

      A man carrying a child would not have aroused (immediate) suspicion in a setting and surround such as that at PdL ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 04:10:13 PM

      Really?  How do we know that for certain? 
      She wasn't seen by anyone between Gerry's visit  at 9 ish and Kate's at 10 ish

      Because somebody said so. It's in the files.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 07, 2015, 04:18:44 PM
      So who that that be then?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 04:34:18 PM
      So who that that be then?


      I will leave that for you do find as direct reference is not permissible on this forum.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 07, 2015, 04:41:31 PM

      I will leave that for you do find as direct reference is not permissible on this forum.

      You quoted the files, so you should provide the name.
      Can I assume, therefore, that it doesn't exist?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 04:56:26 PM

      I will leave that for you do find as direct reference is not permissible on this forum.

      What do you mean?

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-VIEGAS.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 07, 2015, 05:21:10 PM
      That's because the abduction happened at around 9.30pm, not in the period when there was so much activity.

      When Matt and Russell went to check?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 06:18:05 PM
      You quoted the files, so you should provide the name.
      Can I assume, therefore, that it doesn't exist?

      It does exist.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 07, 2015, 06:21:05 PM
      Copy and paste it then,
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 08:00:29 PM
      Quote- the professionals concluded the alerts were due to what the dogs were trained for unquote
      Yes,  true,  which could have been pig blood in Eddie's case,   or scent left from something that was there and then removed [another professional]
      Nope.We have done this a million times. There is no evidence Eddie alerts to remnant scent of blood, not once mentioned by any UK police officer, adviser, handled or anyone else, both in discussion of this case, previous ones and in training.Besides, what the heck would pigs be doing bleeding in bedrooms and gardens. I'd leave it if I were you...you have your notions, I have yet to read anything remotely similar regarding Grimes' dogs. As a last aside, you would have to find evidence that Keela was trained to disregard so called "remnant scent of blood".
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 08:07:13 PM
      When Matt and Russell went to check?

      Not only them but other possibilities seeing as timings are not definite to the minute..."around 9.30" eg Tanner returnng from her check or a bit later returning to her apartment, Matt returning, more or less as busy as earlier. But if that 9.30 "hypothesis" is correct, then Tannerman  at 9.15 has to be discarded.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 08:09:11 PM
      Where is it stated Grime wanted to further investigate the garden?

      Grime stated it in the dog video, IIRC something like, the area warranting further investigation the next day
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 07, 2015, 10:05:02 PM
      Nope.We have done this a million times. There is no evidence Eddie alerts to remnant scent of blood, not once mentioned by any UK police officer, adviser, handled or anyone else, both in discussion of this case, previous ones and in training.Besides, what the heck would pigs be doing bleeding in bedrooms and gardens. I'd leave it if I were you...you have your notions, I have yet to read anything remotely similar regarding Grimes' dogs. As a last aside, you would have to find evidence that Keela was trained to disregard so called "remnant scent of blood".

      I recommend checking what Mr Grime has to say on a range of things ... particularly his confirmation the Eddie did indeed alert to blood.

      **Snip
      'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
      The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 10:09:29 PM
      I recommend checking what Mr Grime has to say on a range of things ... particularly his confirmation the Eddie did indeed alert to blood.

      **Snip
      'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
      The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

      Did my post go over your head? yet again? What shall I do with you Brie cheese lol, at least do TRY to follow the conversation and all its details instead of repeating pointless mantras which don't really add but detract
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 07, 2015, 10:19:40 PM
      Did my post go over your head? yet again? What shall I do with you Brie cheese lol, at least do TRY to follow the conversation and all its details instead of repeating pointless mantras which don't really add but detract

      So rude.  And so wrong. 

      According to his handler, Martin Grime, Eddie does (did) alert to dried blood.

      If you don't believe it, then I suggest you argue the toss with Grime.  ?{)(**

      eta

      "'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
       The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being."

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 10:23:05 PM
      So rude.  And so wrong. 

      According to his handler, Martin Grime, Eddie does (did) alert to dried blood.

      If you don't believe it, then I suggest you argue the toss with Grime.  ?{)(**

      Oh dear Jean you will find I never questioned that, but that was nothing to do with the discussion at hand, which was about pigs blood that could have been in the McCann apartment!!!and remnant scent of blood which Lace said was something Eddie barked to, both silly, please read back for info
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 07, 2015, 10:25:24 PM
      Did my post go over your head? yet again? What shall I do with you Brie cheese lol, at least do TRY to follow the conversation and all its details instead of repeating pointless mantras which don't really add but detract

      Hmmm ... let me get this right ... you posted ...

      "There is no evidence Eddie alerts to remnant scent of blood, not once mentioned by any UK police officer, adviser, handled or anyone else, both in discussion of this case, previous ones and in training."

      You have not backed that statement up with a cite.

      His handler has indicated the exact opposite of what must undoubtedly be your opinion.  I have provided a cite to substantiate that.

      But there you are ... why let the facts of the matter get in the way of utter fantasy.




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 10:30:30 PM
      Hmmm ... let me get this right ... you posted ...

      "There is no evidence Eddie alerts to remnant scent of blood, not once mentioned by any UK police officer, adviser, handled or anyone else, both in discussion of this case, previous ones and in training."

      You have not backed that statement up with a cite.

      His handler has indicated the exact opposite of what must undoubtedly be your opinion.  I have provided a cite to substantiate that.

      But there you are ... why let the facts of the matter get in the way of utter fantasy.
      A) Where I comment there is no evidence there is no need for me to provide a cite, the onus rests on the person making x claim
      B)I thnk you need to take a few  steps back to clear your head.....Mr Grime has never said Eddie reacts to the remnant scent of blood..the fantasy is all yours
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 07, 2015, 10:43:29 PM
      A) Where I comment there is no evidence there is no need for me to provide a cite, the onus rests on the person making x claim
      B)I thnk you need to take a few  steps back to clear your head.....Mr Grime has never said Eddie reacts to the remnant scent of blood..the fantasy is all yours

                                                         &%+((£  Oh Dear ... what can one say to that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 08, 2015, 08:24:53 AM
      Nope.We have done this a million times. There is no evidence Eddie alerts to remnant scent of blood, not once mentioned by any UK police officer, adviser, handled or anyone else, both in discussion of this case, previous ones and in training.Besides, what the heck would pigs be doing bleeding in bedrooms and gardens. I'd leave it if I were you...you have your notions, I have yet to read anything remotely similar regarding Grimes' dogs. As a last aside, you would have to find evidence that Keela was trained to disregard so called "remnant scent of blood".

      I do have my notions you're right,   from reading what professionals in their field say about cadaver dogs.

      The Professionals all said that when a cadaver dog alerts it has to be taken with caution as there could have been something in that area that had had blood on it and then been removed.

      Are you saying that Eddie is a super cadaver dog that would not do this when it has been said that cadaver dogs would?

      Pigs wouldn't have had to be bleeding in the bedroom and the garden,  you are being facetious there,   pig blood could very well have been in the fertiliser on the soil and so Eddie could have alerted to it,   the scent of it could also have been walked into the bedroom.

      Ignore these facts if you wish,   but please do not make out my comments are in any way silly or need to be taken with humour.

      You are not a professional trainer of cadaver dogs,   neither are you a forensic scientist.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 08, 2015, 10:10:44 AM
      Hmmm ... so we really don't require a cite for anything we post on the Forum if we can now begin our posts with  ...

                                                           I've heard a rumour that ...

      Why am I left with the very distinct impression there are those who don't mind at all if the ethos of this Forum is shot to hell because of utter silliness. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 08, 2015, 10:24:48 AM
      Nope.We have done this a million times. There is no evidence Eddie alerts to remnant scent of blood, not once mentioned by any UK police officer, adviser, handled or anyone else, both in discussion of this case, previous ones and in training.Besides, what the heck would pigs be doing bleeding in bedrooms and gardens. I'd leave it if I were you...you have your notions, I have yet to read anything remotely similar regarding Grimes' dogs. As a last aside, you would have to find evidence that Keela was trained to disregard so called "remnant scent of blood".

      Referring to blood:

      It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent.


      'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.

      She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for minute human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles.

      In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to thirty-six years old.

      In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities.

      Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable leve1 for accurate location.

      It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent. Forensic testing may not produce evidence but any alert may provide intelligence to support other factors in the investigation of a crime.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 08, 2015, 10:31:26 AM

      Any further attempts to expose or libel any members of this board will result in a suspension.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 08, 2015, 10:35:33 AM
      Referring to blood:

      It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent.


      'Keela' The Crime Scene Investigation (C.S.I.) dog will search for and locate human blood to such small proportions that it is unlikely to be recovered by the forensic science procedures in place at this time due to its size or placement.

      She will locate contaminated weapons, screen motor vehicles and items of clothing and examine crime scenes for minute human blood deposits. She will accurately locate human blood on items that have been subjected to 'clean up operations' or having been subjected to several washing machine cycles.

      In training she has accurately located minute samples of blood on property up to thirty-six years old.

      In order for the dog to locate the source the blood must have 'dried' in situ. Any 'wetting' once dried will not affect the dog's abilities.

      Blood that is subjected to dilution by precipitation or other substantial water source prior to drying will soak into the ground or other absorbent material. This may dilute the scent to an unacceptable leve1 for accurate location.

      It is possible however that the EVRD will locate the scent source as it would for 'dead body' scent. Forensic testing may not produce evidence but any alert may provide intelligence to support other factors in the investigation of a crime.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

      When you actually read and digest what Mr Grime has to say in his statements as recorded in the files ... it becomes glaringly obvious that the sceptics who have formed their opinions and built their case on "the dogs" have not taken the time or bothered to do so.

      They have ignored what the professional handler has to say in preference to the myth and innuendo propagated in pejorative early press leaks ... and in the pages of Mr Amaral's book.

      Very much a case of not allowing the truth to get in the way of a good tall tale.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 08, 2015, 10:52:29 AM
      Grime stated it in the dog video, IIRC something like, the area warranting further investigation the next day

      Ah!

      I can't listen to those.

      My speakers have packed up.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 11:09:12 AM
      Ah!

      I can't listen to those.

      My speakers have packed up.

      Use headphones.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 11:21:51 AM
      A) Where I comment there is no evidence there is no need for me to provide a cite, the onus rests on the person making x claim
      B)I thnk you need to take a few  steps back to clear your head.....Mr Grime has never said Eddie reacts to the remnant scent of blood..the fantasy is all yours

      and grime has never said eddie alerted to cadaverine contaminant..cadaver odour or the odour of a dead body...as you continue to claim
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on September 08, 2015, 06:37:36 PM
      A) Where I comment there is no evidence there is no need for me to provide a cite, the onus rests on the person making x claim
      B)I thnk you need to take a few  steps back to clear your head.....Mr Grime has never said Eddie reacts to the remnant scent of blood..the fantasy is all yours

      Not wanting to spoil the party but what exactly is a 'remnant scent of blood'? &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 08, 2015, 06:41:53 PM
      Not wanting to spoil the party but what exactly is a 'remnant scent of blood'? &%+((£

      A remnant scent of whatever decomp substances were within Eddie's training parameters, which included dried blood from a living human being.

      Keela would only react to the physical presence of blood, we are told.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 06:56:37 PM
      A remnant scent of whatever decomp substances were within Eddie's training parameters, which included dried blood from a living human being.

      Keela would only react to the physical presence of blood, we are told.

      according to the latest research you can add the smell of newly cut grass as a scent the dogs will alert to
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 08, 2015, 07:21:29 PM
      according to the latest research you can add the smell of newly cut grass as a scent the dogs will alert to

      I've not seen that one yet ... but there is no doubt whatsoever that the scientific studies are coming up with some quite extraordinary new discoveries.  It is quite fascinating.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 08, 2015, 07:40:00 PM
      It's just as well gun dogs aren't as kin useless as all other sorts of dogs.
      Imgine downing a partridge only to have your Labrador try to bring back a live pig.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on September 08, 2015, 07:55:05 PM
      A remnant scent of whatever decomp substances were within Eddie's training parameters, which included dried blood from a living human being.

      Keela would only react to the physical presence of blood, we are told.

      But surely dried blood has no scent?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 08, 2015, 08:14:15 PM
      But surely dried blood has no scent?

      Ask the dogs... they alert to it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 08:48:39 PM
      Ask the dogs... they alert to it.

      Eddie is the cadaver dog and goes in first. Keela found no blood where Eddie first alerted nor on the clothes or CC. If death happened then it's most probable that cadaver scent and blood would be located in the same spot. That doesn't mean the cadaver dog is alerting to blood when the cadaver scent is stronger. Keela has to get in real close to sniff and identify microscopic blood as it's a weaker scent.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 08, 2015, 08:52:08 PM
      Eddie is the cadaver dog and goes in first. Keela found no blood where Eddie first alerted nor on the clothes or CC. If death happened then it's most probable that cadaver scent and blood would be located in the same spot. That doesn't mean the cadaver dog is alerting to blood when the cadaver scent is stronger. Keela has to get in real close to sniff and identify microscopic blood as it's a weaker scent.

      Except in the gym, where Keela was deployed first without alerting: then Eddie was deployed.

      So far as I can make out, before PdL, Eddie and Keela were never deployed in tandem.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 08:53:28 PM
      Except in the gym, where Keela was deployed first without alerting: then Eddie was deployed.

      So far as I can make out, before PdL, Eddie and Keela were never deployed in tandem.

      Yes we know that because they are screening clothes separately so Keela has to rule out blood first before Eddie goes in.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 08:55:48 PM
      It's just as well gun dogs aren't as kin useless as all other sorts of dogs.
      Imgine downing a partridge only to have your Labrador try to bring back a live pig.

      No wonder we have so many posts on dogs when posters such as you do not understand the issue
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 08, 2015, 08:58:07 PM
      Yes we know that because they are screening clothes separately so Keela has to rule out blood first before Eddie goes in.

      Nothing Eddie picked up in his mouth was sent to the FSS

      Why is that?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 08, 2015, 09:01:12 PM
      Nothing Eddie picked up in his mouth was sent to the FSS

      Why is that?

      Because it was contaminated, peut etre?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 08, 2015, 09:05:51 PM
      Because it was contaminated, peut etre?

      I had to google peut etre.

      But seems a good answer to me ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 08, 2015, 09:09:26 PM
      I had to google peut etre.

      But seems a good answer to me ....

      Sorry.  The French is occasionally more pertinent, but possibly only to me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 08, 2015, 09:34:32 PM
      Nothing Eddie picked up in his mouth was sent to the FSS

      Why is that?

      What could they have tested for? There is no test which detects cadaver odour.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 09:39:16 PM
      What could they have tested for? There is no test which detects cadaver odour.

      Bodily fluids from a cadaver
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 08, 2015, 09:40:00 PM
      What could they have tested for? There is no test which detects cadaver odour.

      Agreed.

      Bringing me back to my original question.

      Why was Eddie deployed?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 08, 2015, 09:42:08 PM
      Agreed.

      Bringing me back to my original question.

      Why was Eddie deployed?

      I think we all know the answer to that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 09:43:33 PM
      Agreed.

      Bringing me back to my original question.

      Why was Eddie deployed?

      AMAZING STATISTICS

      Great Britain has at its disposal the world's biggest data bank on homicide of children under five years old. Since 1960, the count is 1528. Harrison is well acquainted with its contents. He often draws information from there which helps him to resolve similar cases. Valuable information can be found there on on various criminal modus operandi, places where bodies are hidden, techniques used to get rid of a body. He relates that on one occasion, thanks to the data, he was able to deduce the maximum distance a body might be found in relation to where the crime had been committed.

      The figures quoted in the report he hands over give us the shivers. The crimes, including those of a sexual nature, are committed by the parents in 84% of cases; 96% are perpetrated by friends and relatives. In only 4% of them is the murderer or abductor a total stranger to the victim. In this roundabout way, Mark Harrison points out that the guilty party may be a person close to Madeleine, and even her own parents. From now on, we have to explore this track, especially as the others have proved fruitless.

      Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. To convince us of their capability and the extraordinary work carried out by these very special detectives in the course of over 200 investigations, he screens a video for us, showing their training and their intervention on the ground.

      He suggests that we start the operations with the inspection of apartment 5A, then those occupied by the McCanns' friends. Robert Murat's house will also be subjected to thorough examination. In addition, all the vehicles used by all of them will be sniffed by the dogs.

      Meanwhile, we were supposed to receive American electronic equipment that detects human bodies thanks to the odour that emanates from them (Scent Transfer Unit 100). But the equipment, blocked by customs, arrived late. We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. (TOTL)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 08, 2015, 09:50:38 PM
      Bodily fluids from a cadaver

      Can they do that on a whole garment? How?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 09:53:47 PM
      Can they do that on a whole garment? How?

      And this was only 3 months later. Plenty of washes in that time.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 09:54:28 PM
      Can they do that on a whole garment? How?

      They do something called a DNA sweep
      That's what they should have done on the bedclothes too instead of sending them to the laundry
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 10:01:08 PM
      And this was only 3 months later. Plenty of washes in that time.

      So would the scent survive plenty of washes
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 10:06:16 PM
      They do something called a DNA sweep
      That's what they should have done on the bedclothes too instead of sending them to the laundry

      Amaral agrees - none of those sheets should have been removed.

      THE REPORTS LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED

      The examination of the premises by the investigator and the representative of the forensic police just after the announcement of the disappearance turns out to be quite unproductive. A concise report, where their observations are written up, is accompanied by numerous photographs taken inside and outside apartment 5A - which don't give an account of, according to us, everything they could have observed. This error is explained by the absence of procedures in case of a child's disappearance, notably concerning the actions to be taken when examining the scene.

      Lots of people were already in place; however, nobody appeared in the photos. We don't know, for example, how they were dressed. Such observations can turn out to be important later on. The report mentions that the twins were asleep in their bed, but there is no proof to confirm it; on the contrary, in the photographs, you can see empty cots, where only the mattresses remain - the sheets and blankets having been removed. Why have their beds been stripped? If the sheets had not been removed, traces of their presence could have been found there. (TOTL)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 10:10:27 PM
      So would the scent survive plenty of washes

      CADAVER SCENT

      The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
      compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
      receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
      considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
      yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time. Cadaver scent
      cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces.
      The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but
      the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific
      compounds' and mixes.
      Cadaver scent contamination may be transferred in
      numerous scenarios. Any contact with a cadaver which is then passed to any
      other material may be recognised by the dog causing a 'trigger' indication.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 10:11:31 PM
      Amaral agrees - none of those sheets should have been removed.

      THE REPORTS LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED

      The examination of the premises by the investigator and the representative of the forensic police just after the announcement of the disappearance turns out to be quite unproductive. A concise report, where their observations are written up, is accompanied by numerous photographs taken inside and outside apartment 5A - which don't give an account of, according to us, everything they could have observed. This error is explained by the absence of procedures in case of a child's disappearance, notably concerning the actions to be taken when examining the scene.

      Lots of people were already in place; however, nobody appeared in the photos. We don't know, for example, how they were dressed. Such observations can turn out to be important later on. The report mentions that the twins were asleep in their bed, but there is no proof to confirm it; on the contrary, in the photographs, you can see empty cots, where only the mattresses remain - the sheets and blankets having been removed. Why have their beds been stripped? If the sheets had not been removed, traces of their presence could have been found there. (TOTL)

      Amaranth agrees with me... That's going to upset a few people
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 10:14:04 PM
      CADAVER SCENT

      The odour target of cadaver is scientifically explained through 'volatile organic
      compounds' that in a certain configuration are received by the dog as a
      receptor. Recognition then gives a conditioned response 'ALERT'. Despite
      considerable research and analytical investigation the compounds cannot as
      yet be replicated in laboratory processes. Therefore the 'alert' by dogs without
      a tangible source cannot be forensically proven at this time. Cadaver scent
      cannot readily be removed by cleaning as the compounds adhere to surfaces.
      The scent can be 'masked' by bleach and other strong smelling odours but
      the dog's olfactory system is able to isolate the odours and identify specific
      compounds' and mixes.
      Cadaver scent contamination may be transferred in
      numerous scenarios. Any contact with a cadaver which is then passed to any
      other material may be recognised by the dog causing a 'trigger' indication.

      Doesn't answer the question.... How many washes would it take to remover cadaver scent



      Every wash dilutes the scent until there is non left
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 10:16:14 PM
      Amaranth agrees with me... That's going to upset a few people

      Glad I made your day  @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 08, 2015, 10:16:56 PM
      They do something called a DNA sweep
      That's what they should have done on the bedclothes too instead of sending them to the laundry

      Who sent the bedclothes to the laundry and when? Do you have the cite?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 10:19:29 PM
      Who sent the bedclothes to the laundry and when? Do you have the cite?

      You asked the same question last week and the cite was supplied...we've just had a quote where Saint amaral agrees with me
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 10:20:53 PM
      Doesn't answer the question.... How many washes would it take to remover cadaver scent



      Every wash dilutes the scent until there is non left

      I don't know.

      An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee. The scent detection threshold of the dog is greatly enhanced. (MH)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 10:26:19 PM
      I don't know.

      An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee. The scent detection threshold of the dog is greatly enhanced. (MH)

      Both those cases are not remnant scent as the cadaver is still present
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 08, 2015, 10:26:58 PM
      You asked the same question last week and the cite was supplied...we've just had a quote where Saint amaral agrees with me
      You must be mixing me up with someone else...and I don't recall reading either the question from another or the cite provided, and Amaral in your latest quote makes no mention of laundering the bedclothes either, so you are making it up as you go along it seems, unless you can prove I'm mistaken...go ahead, happy to be corrected
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 08, 2015, 10:30:38 PM
      You must be mixing me up with someone else...and I don't recall reading either the question from another or the cite provided, and Amaral in your latest quote makes no mention of laundering the bedclothes either, so you are making it up as you go along it seems, unless you can prove I'm mistaken...go ahead, happy to be corrected

      Be happy
      You are corrected
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 08, 2015, 10:32:28 PM
      Be happy
      You are corrected

      That's not a mature answer, it doesn't answer the question, neither does it provide  any facts, so can I take it I was correct. Thanks. if anyone else wants to provide THE cite that shows the bedclothes were sent off to the laundry, go ahead.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 09, 2015, 08:45:34 AM

      1. Eddie didn't alert to pig's blood, he alerted to human blood.
      2, Even if he did alert to pig's blood, how did it get there? Do you think some previous holiday maker had smuggled their pet pot-bellied pig into the apartment and it had an accident?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 09, 2015, 09:25:07 AM
      1. Eddie didn't alert to pig's blood, he alerted to human blood.
      2, Even if he did alert to pig's blood, how did it get there? Do you think some previous holiday maker had smuggled their pet pot-bellied pig into the apartment and it had an accident?

      Eddie was trained using pig carcasses,   Grime said himself the dog wouldn't be able to distinguish between pig and human decomposed flesh.

      No I don't think anyone would have smuggled a pet pot-bellied pig into the apartment [though they could check  ?{)(**]    pig blood as I have said before could have been in the fertiliser in the garden soil.

      Though I think it was more than likely the bedroom alert was to something that had blood on it but was removed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 09, 2015, 09:27:29 AM
      Not that I'm advocating that pig blood was what Eddie alerted to, but the scent of it could have been brought into the apartment by a butcher or an abbatoir worker (on holiday?  part-time cleaner?) , so no need for the ridiculous pot-belly pig scenario.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 09, 2015, 09:36:30 AM

      Sorry.  I refuse to believe that Cadaver Scent can't be washed out, even after only three or four washes, if as many as that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 10:04:20 AM
      Sorry.  I refuse to believe that Cadaver Scent can't be washed out, even after only three or four washes, if as many as that.

      You do know I presume organic remains millions of years old have been found ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 10:08:17 AM
      You do know I presume organic remains millions of years old have been found ?

      That's the whole point
      There were no remains in Pdl
      You wouldn't get rid of a dinosaur in 2 or 3 washes
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 10:10:29 AM
      That's the whole point
      There were no remains in Pdl
      You wouldn't get rid of a dinosaur in 2 or 3 washes

      You do not know that.

      it depends on the effectiveness of the sampling method, and if the samples were taken from the correct locations.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 09, 2015, 10:11:52 AM
      You do know I presume organic remains millions of years old have been found ?

      You appear to be talking about organic remains.  I am talking about Cadaver Scent where there are no remains.  If Cadaver Scent had an infinite life then we would all be stinking of it, including the other appartments occupied by the rest of The McCann Friends.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 10:16:46 AM
      You do not know that.

      it depends on the effectiveness of the sampling method, and if the samples were taken from the correct locations.

      So what allows dogs to detect remnant scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 10:18:12 AM
      You appear to be talking about organic remains.  I am talking about Cadaver Scent where there are no remains.  If Cadaver Scent had an infinite life then we would all be stinking of it, including the other appartments occupied by the rest of The McCann Friends.

      Who said infinite ?

      Eleanor, I hate to disappoint you, but cadaver scent is organic.

      As i have said before, there are several variables as to what compounds may persist in a given environment and/or on a given material(s).

      just remember that dogs olfactory receptors are far more sensitive than our own, and will of course detect the presence of molecules well below the human threshold.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 10:33:39 AM
      Who said infinite ?

      Eleanor, I hate to disappoint you, but cadaver scent is organic.

      As i have said before, there are several variables as to what compounds may persist in a given environment and/or on a given material(s).

      just remember that dogs olfactory receptors are far more sensitive than our own, and will of course detect the presence of molecules well below the human threshold.

      If organic material remains
      Is that remnant scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carlymichelle on September 09, 2015, 11:18:34 AM
      Who said infinite ?

      Eleanor, I hate to disappoint you, but cadaver scent is organic.

      As i have said before, there are several variables as to what compounds may persist in a given environment and/or on a given material(s).

      just remember that dogs olfactory receptors are far more sensitive than our own, and will of course detect the presence of molecules well below the human threshold.

      seems  the dogs get up  supporters noses  @)(++(*  dogs can smell  1000s  of times more then humans they can even detect  low blood sugar and  sezuires etc and cancer just by a humans scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 09, 2015, 11:34:28 AM
      That's the whole point
      There were no remains in Pdl
      You wouldn't get rid of a dinosaur in 2 or 3 washes
      LOL.

      Enjoyed this!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 09, 2015, 11:38:37 AM
      Who said infinite ?

      Eleanor, I hate to disappoint you, but cadaver scent is organic.

      As i have said before, there are several variables as to what compounds may persist in a given environment and/or on a given material(s).

      just remember that dogs olfactory receptors are far more sensitive than our own, and will of course detect the presence of molecules well below the human threshold.

      So what did the dogs find?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 09, 2015, 11:41:43 AM
      seems  the dogs get up  supporters noses  @)(++(*  dogs can smell  1000s  of times more then humans they can even detect  low blood sugar and  sezuires etc and cancer just by a humans scent

      Goodness me.  I thought we were discussing Cadaver Scent from no such thing as an actual Cadaver.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

      Whoops, I almost missed that you cracked a joke.  Well done you.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 11:43:47 AM
      Goodness me.  I thought we were discussing Cadaver Scent from no such thing as an actual Cadaver.  Please correct me if I am wrong

       'Cadaver Scent from no such thing as an actual Cadaver' ?


      and that means precisely what ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 09, 2015, 11:44:52 AM
      'Cadaver Scent from no such thing as an actual Cadaver' ?


      and that means precisely what ?

      There was no Cadaver.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 11:45:13 AM
      LOL.

      Enjoyed this!

      Was that tens of millions of years later  ?

      Perhaps you would like to see their feathers as well. @)(++(* @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 11:46:05 AM
      There was no Cadaver.

      Can you cite the evidence for that ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 11:49:28 AM
      If only they'd develop a cyberdog that sniffed out and barked loudly at forum bullshit, then I'd be happy.  @)(++(*

      You don't need a cyberdog for that. 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carlymichelle on September 09, 2015, 11:50:24 AM
      Can you cite the evidence for that ?

      eddie and keela told  their handler/police there  was  didnt they?? just because  people  dont  want to accept it doesnt mean  they didnt find any
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 09, 2015, 11:55:11 AM
      Can you cite the evidence for that ?

      Well Stephen. 

      Whilst there is a theoretical possibility that there was a cadaver at the scene which nobody noticed, the chance of that happening are quite low.

      So for practical purposes I think it is reasonable to assume that there was no cadaver at the time of the searches.

      Will that do you? ?{)(**
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 09, 2015, 11:56:45 AM
      Can you cite the evidence for that ?

      Oh, you mean they found a Cadaver?  What a silly reply that was.  My reply I mean.  We all know that they didn't. 

      But supposing they had done, who could have said who killed the poor child, presuming of course, that she is dead.  Which I am not prepared to believe at the moment.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 11:58:05 AM
      Well Stephen. 

      Whilst there is a theoretical possibility that there was a cadaver at the scene which nobody noticed, the chance of that happening are quite low.

      So for practical purposes I think it is reasonable to assume that there was no cadaver at the time of the searches.

      Will that do you? ?{)(**

      I wasn't talking in reference to the time of the searches.

      I was referring to the residual compounds that would be present and could do so for extensive periods of time. I did not state a body was present when the dogs were deployed.

      Will that do for you too ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 12:00:51 PM
      Oh, you mean they found a Cadaver?  What a silly reply that was.  My reply I mean.  We all know that they didn't. 

      But supposing they had done, who could have said who killed the poor child, presuming of course, that she is dead.  Which I am not prepared to believe at the moment.

      Personally i don't believe she was murdered.

      Others do, so that is their prerogative.

      'We all know that they didn't.'.

      Well yes a body hasn't been found, but then i wasn't referring to a body, was I ?


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 09, 2015, 12:05:00 PM
      Was that tens of millions of years later  ?

      Perhaps you would like to see their feathers as well. @)(++(* @)(++(*
      I have seen the feathers of both the 'original' dinosaurs and their modern equivalent.  I take it that you have seen these also.

      T'was just a post that made me chuckle.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 09, 2015, 01:01:50 PM
      Can we please get back on topic. thanks
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 04:27:26 PM
      I wasn't talking in reference to the time of the searches.

      I was referring to the residual compounds that would be present and could do so for extensive periods of time. I did not state a body was present when the dogs were deployed.

      Will that do for you too ?

      no residual compounds were detected......
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 05:09:29 PM
      no residual compounds were detected......

      The dogs indicated.

      So there were residual compounds.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 09, 2015, 05:20:40 PM
      The dogs indicated.

      So there were residual compounds.

      The dog only indicated to cuddle-cat second time of asking.

      So was that residual compounds?

      Or an error by the dog?

      And the dog only barked in an area where they were clothes after they had been been transported to a different location, never while they were in the villa (where Eddie also inspected).

      So is that residual compounds?

      Or an error by the dog?

      And (in each case) if the latter, which error, of indicating when he shouldn't?

      OR of failing to indicate when he should have?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 05:23:32 PM
      The dogs indicated.

      So there were residual compounds.

      The dogs were a huge success in locating some obscure spots of blood and cellular material which must have contained blood.  Unfortunately they were less successful in finding any trace of Madeleine McCann either dead or alive.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 05:38:00 PM
      The dogs indicated.

      So there were residual compounds.
      not necesarily
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 05:43:20 PM
      The dogs were a huge success in locating some obscure spots of blood and cellular material which must have contained blood.  Unfortunately they were less successful in finding any trace of Madeleine McCann either dead or alive.

      The forensic analysis was inconclusive as to whether her genetic material from her was found.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 09, 2015, 05:48:52 PM
      The forensic analysis was inconclusive as to whether her genetic material from her was found.

      The recorded results were also inconclusive: no reaction to cuddle-cat first time, (apparent) "reaction" second time; no reaction to clothing in the villa, (apparent!) "reaction" to the same clothing second time in the gym.  (If a dog picking stuff up in its mouth it has first trampled all over can be counted as a "reaction") ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 05:56:53 PM
      The recorded results were also inconclusive: no reaction to cuddle-cat first time, (apparent) "reaction" second time; no reaction to clothing in the villa, (apparent!) "reaction" to the same clothing second time in the gym.  (If a dog picking stuff up in its mouth it has first trampled all over can be counted as a "reaction") ...

      A brief reminder if needed.

      Inconclusive is not a negative.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 06:07:35 PM
      A brief reminder if needed.

      Inconclusive is not a negative.

      but it is useless as any type of evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 09, 2015, 06:36:07 PM
      but it is useless as any type of evidence

      True.

      But Stephen will get upset if you say things like that ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 06:49:49 PM
      True.

      But Stephen will get upset if you say things like that ...

      If you think I am upset you are sorely mistaken.

      I am not the person who has attacked Martin Grime relentlessly without even any experience of this area of forensic work whatsoever.

      It merely adds to the distinct impression that what the dogs indicated is of paramount importance and every effort is being made therefore to attack Grime, and inplicitly the dogs as well.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 07:18:12 PM
      If you think I am upset you are sorely mistaken.

      I am not the person who has attacked Martin Grime relentlessly without even any experience of this area of forensic work whatsoever.

      It merely adds to the distinct impression that what the dogs indicated is of paramount importance and every effort is being made therefore to attack Grime, and inplicitly the dogs as well.

      I think you are quite mistaken when you make the claim that posters are denigrating Mr Grime when in fact they are supporting what he clearly says in his statements.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 07:18:43 PM
      If you think I am upset you are sorely mistaken.

      I am not the person who has attacked Martin Grime relentlessly without even any experience of this area of forensic work whatsoever.

      It merely adds to the distinct impression that what the dogs indicated is of paramount importance and every effort is being made therefore to attack Grime, and inplicitly the dogs as well.

      how can it be important when grime himself say the alerts have no evidential reliability
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 07:23:56 PM
      how can it be important when grime himself say the alerts have no evidential reliability

      Yet you and other mccann supporters keep posting on this thread.

       8)--)) 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 07:24:59 PM
      Yet you and other mccann supporters keep posting on this thread.

       8)--)) 8((()*/

      to correct the lies as I have already said
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 07:25:44 PM
      My dogs brilliant
      Was on a shoot (edited) and when it came to totting up although I only had two pheasants I explained that the dog had alerted in15 other places and someone must have removed them giving me a total of 17..my explanation that dogs don't lie was met with ridicule


      Edited ?

      Where exactly ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 07:27:59 PM

      Edited ?

      Where exactly ?

      not by me
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 09, 2015, 07:28:21 PM
      I think you are quite mistaken when you make the claim that posters are denigrating Mr Grime when in fact they are supporting what he clearly says in his statements.

      I am deeply critical of Martin Grime.

      I think he was heedless and cavalier.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 07:32:50 PM
      not by me

      Tell me dave, what is the consequence of shooting pheasants outside the period of October 1st to  January 31st  which is regulated by UK law?


      https://www.gov.uk/hunting/overview
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 07:33:58 PM
      I am deeply critical of Martin Grime.

      I think he was heedless and cavalier.

      Irrelevant.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 07:34:17 PM
      I am deeply critical of Martin Grime.

      I think he was heedless and cavalier.

      I was initially supportive but since reading the criticism of Grime by the PJ I realise how poorly the dogs performed..I feel Grime should have been much more open in his interpretation of the alerts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 07:59:51 PM
      I am deeply critical of Martin Grime.

      I think he was heedless and cavalier.

      I can sympathise with that.  But I think there was far more put on his shoulders than would be normal practice in an investigation where he would be working with another handler and reporting to senior management who knew what they were about using the dogs as a tool not as a conclusion.
      He was used to turning up with his dogs ... doing the job with them ... reporting back ... and that was that.  On to the next job and next report.

      I don't think there would have been all this "dogs don't lie" nonsense but for the false leaks to the press about forensics bolstered by the release of the videos on the internet.  That wasn't down to Martin Grime and I think he was probably quite dismayed by it. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 09, 2015, 08:00:53 PM
      Irrelevant.

      Even after Amaral has lost his appeal?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 08:02:31 PM
      Even after Amaral has lost his appeal?

      Let's wait and see. 8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 08:13:19 PM
      Tell me dave, what is the consequence of shooting pheasants outside the period of October 1st to  January 31st  which is regulated by UK law?


      https://www.gov.uk/hunting/overview

      I was on a family holiday in Portugal at the time
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: jassi on September 09, 2015, 08:17:49 PM
      I hope you were staying somewhere a bit nicer that the Ocean Club.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 08:19:00 PM
      I was on a family holiday in Portugal at the time

      Of course you were. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      and of course you checked all the regulations beforehand and obtained all the licences required. 8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 09:14:33 PM
      I was on a family holiday in Portugal at the time
      Fascinating. Did you pick up and move the pheasants you shot? What did you carry them in? And did you place that in your rental car? What did you use to unlock the car?
       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 09:22:54 PM
      Fascinating. Did you pick up and move the pheasants you shot? What did you carry them in? And did you place that in your rental car? What did you use to unlock the car?

      Absolutely not
      I think someone had been watching me all week and took the pheasants
      The police were not interested and blamed me
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 09, 2015, 09:30:19 PM
      I can sympathise with that.  But I think there was far more put on his shoulders than would be normal practice in an investigation where he would be working with another handler and reporting to senior management who knew what they were about using the dogs as a tool not as a conclusion.
      He was used to turning up with his dogs ... doing the job with them ... reporting back ... and that was that.  On to the next job and next report.

      I don't think there would have been all this "dogs don't lie" nonsense but for the false leaks to the press about forensics bolstered by the release of the videos on the internet.  That wasn't down to Martin Grime and I think he was probably quite dismayed by it.

      The (I gather now late) blogger steel magnolia wrote a blog alleging that Grime complained that an English official (he didn't name!) had leaned on him to say, in his reports, that no evidential reliability could be placed on the dog-alerts.

      I've never seen independent verification of the claim.

      But it actually wouldn't surprise me in the least if that turned out to be true.

      And if it was true, the English official would have been Harrison, who certainly turned in his back on Grime's worst excesses in handling his dog, and particularly (largely) disregarding the direction of Harrison.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 09:33:14 PM
      Absolutely not
      I think someone had been watching me all week and took the pheasants
      The police were not interested and blamed me

      Must have been Mr. Spotty, pheasant abductor. @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 09:37:56 PM
      The (I gather now late) blogger steel magnolia wrote a blog alleging that Grime complained that an English official (he didn't name!) had leaned on him to say, in his reports, that no evidential reliability could be placed on the dog-alerts.

      I've never seen independent verification of the claim.

      But it actually wouldn't surprise me in the least if that turned out to be true.

      And if it was true, the English official would have been Harrison, who certainly turned in his back on Grime's worst excesses in handling his dog, and particularly (largely) disregarding the direction of Harrison.
      IMO that official would not have been MH. And your ideas that MH "turned his back on  ...." and that MG "largely disregarded the direction of ...." are incorrect IMO.
      If you watch the videos you will see these two experts working very efficiently together. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 09, 2015, 09:46:23 PM
      IMO that official would not have been MH. And your ideas that MH "turned his back on  ...." and that MG "largely disregarded the direction of ...." are incorrect IMO.
      If you watch the videos you will see these two experts working very efficiently together.

      I have posted this before, but I will do so again.

      Mark Harrison's summary of all searches:

      The timeline of these searches was as follows:
       
      On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
       
      On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
       
      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
       
      On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
       
      On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
       
      On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
       
      On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
       
      On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.


      I don't think it coincidence that Grime acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs in those searches he recommended, the places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably) might have been, the holiday apartments, areas in and around PdL and the Murats' place.

      Both inspections at villa and gym, Harrison summaries as PJ exercises.

      And while Harrison did recommend an inspection of vehicles, only 2 (of 3!) vehicles he recommended be inspected made the final line-up of 10.

      The exception was a vehicle Murat hired that never made the line-up; while 8 vehicles Harrison never said anything about made it (including the Renault Scenic).

      Harrison gives no clue who took part in that exercise.

      And Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to give PJ officers translated instructions on how to conduct inspections in vehicles and buildings ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 09:54:57 PM
      The (I gather now late) blogger steel magnolia wrote a blog alleging that Grime complained that an English official (he didn't name!) had leaned on him to say, in his reports, that no evidential reliability could be placed on the dog-alerts.

      I've never seen independent verification of the claim.

      But it actually wouldn't surprise me in the least if that turned out to be true.

      And if it was true, the English official would have been Harrison, who certainly turned in his back on Grime's worst excesses in handling his dog, and particularly (largely) disregarding the direction of Harrison.

      In common with the many other unprecedented things which happened in Madeleine's case I think it was unheard of  for dogs and their handlers to achieve such prominence in an investigation.
      Maybe a mention if they actually found human remains ... but I don't recall them achieving a mention even then.

      The total misunderstanding of their role and over reliance on what he had been told their capabilities were led Mr Amaral down the wrong road to entirely the wrong conclusion.
      What a waste of time that could have been better spent looking for Madeleine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 09:55:33 PM
      not by me

      '.........Last week.....'

      Words removed. *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 09:57:55 PM
      In common with the many other unprecedented things which happened in Madeleine's case I think it was unheard of  for dogs and their handlers to achieve such prominence in an investigation.
      Maybe a mention if they actually found human remains ... but I don't recall them achieving a mention even then.

      The total misunderstanding of their role and over reliance on what he had been told their capabilities were led Mr Amaral down the wrong road to entirely the wrong conclusion.
      What a waste of time that could have been better spent looking for Madeleine.

      Cliche after cliche.

      Madeleine was looked for by many people.

      She disappeared without a trace.

      Amaral, supervised the investigation until he was removed after claiming, quite rightly, there had been  interference in the case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 09:59:45 PM
      I have posted this before, but I will do so again.

      Mark Harrison's summary of all searches:

      The timeline of these searches was as follows:
       
      On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
       
      On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
       
      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
       
      On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
       
      On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
       
      On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
       
      On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
       
      On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.


      I don't think it coincidence that Grime acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs in those searches he recommended, the places Madeleine either had been or (conceivably) might have been, the holiday apartments, areas in and around PdL and the Murats' place.

      Both inspections at villa and gym, Harrison summaries as PJ exercises.

      And while Harrison did recommend an inspection of vehicles, only 2 (of 3!) vehicles he recommended be inspected made the final line-up of 10.

      The exception was a vehicle Murat hired that never made the line-up; while 8 vehicles Harrison never said anything about made it (including the Renault Scenic).

      Harrison gives no clue who took part in that exercise.
      In the videos I see no sign of MH turning his back on MG, nor of MG disregarding the directions of MH.

      MH's recommendation "all vehicles RM has had access to" accounts for all but 2 of the vehicles inspected by Eddie.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 09, 2015, 10:03:33 PM
      '.........Last week.....'

      Words removed. *&*%£

      The mystery is who removed the words
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 09, 2015, 10:06:57 PM
      In the videos I see no sign of MH turning his back on MG, nor of MG disregarding the directions of MH.

      MH's recommendation "all vehicles RM has had access to" accounts for all but 2 of the vehicles inspected by Eddie.

      Robert Murat had access to 3 vehicles.

      Two were in the line-up

      One wasn't.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 10:09:29 PM
      The mystery is who removed the words

      Not in the slightest.

      I know who did. 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 10:11:51 PM
      IMO that official would not have been MH. And your ideas that MH "turned his back on  ...." and that MG "largely disregarded the direction of ...." are incorrect IMO.
      If you watch the videos you will see these two experts working very efficiently together.

      With respect, Pegasus, when I look at the parts of the videos we have had access to I believe I watched something which was not fit for purpose and would probably never have seen the light of day in a court.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 10:15:57 PM
      With respect, Pegasus, when I look at the parts of the videos we have had access to I believe I watched something which were not fit for purpose and would probably never have seen the light of day in a court.

      You saw what you wished to see, and made your judgement on your clear total support of the mccanns.

      Regardless of anything else.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 09, 2015, 10:18:02 PM
      You saw what you wished to see, and made your judgement on your clear total support of the mccanns.

      Regardless of anything else.

      So you would deny total support for Amaral?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 09, 2015, 10:20:31 PM
      So you would deny total support for Amaral?

      Yep

      You should read my past posts more carefully. ?>)()<
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 10:30:56 PM
      You saw what you wished to see, and made your judgement on your clear total support of the mccanns.

      Regardless of anything else.

      The first time I watched them I expected to see irrefutable evidence of something horrible.

      Quite literally ... I could not believe my eyes.

      I then came to the conclusion using logic and observation, that although dogs may not lie humans can most definitely delude themselves.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 09, 2015, 10:31:24 PM
      Robert Murat had access to 3 vehicles.

      Two were in the line-up

      One wasn't.

      Which one was that? And are you inferring somethng?
      Pegasus is right btw that 8/10 of the vehicles inspected were related to Murat (his own, his mothers, his gf and her ex, and Malinka) the other two being the Mccanns and the Gorrods
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 10:32:03 PM
      With respect, Pegasus, when I look at the parts of the videos we have had access to I believe I watched something which was not fit for purpose and would probably never have seen the light of day in a court.
      If you think it is important then tell us what it is.
      But you did recognise both MH and MG in the videos?
      Did you notice them turning backs on or disregarding each other?
      Looks like a very efficient team to me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 10:49:02 PM
      Absolutely not
      I think someone had been watching me all week and took the pheasants
      The police were not interested and blamed me
      If you only shot 2 pheasants, your dog's 15 alerts mean that the thief (who you claim stole the pheasants before your dog could even get to them) must have moved the birds after stealing them, and if you tell us the alert locations, we may be able to find the perp.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 09, 2015, 10:55:02 PM
      If you only shot 2 pheasants, your dog's 15 alerts mean that the thief (who you claim stole the pheasants before your dog could even get to them) must have moved the birds after stealing them, and if you tell us the alert locations, we may be able to find the perp.

      The dog was originally trained to find partridges so he may have been a bit confused.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 09, 2015, 10:58:35 PM
      If you think it is important then tell us what it is.
      But you did recognise both MH and MG in the videos?
      Did you notice them turning backs on or disregarding each other?
      Looks like a very efficient team to me.

      I saw neither efficiency or a team.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 11:15:28 PM
      I saw neither efficiency or a team.
      What makes you think it is not a team?
      Why do you think it is inefficient?
      What is the thing in the dog videos which you have a problem with?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 12:14:57 AM
      What makes you think it is not a team?
      Why do you think it is inefficient?
      What is the thing in the dog videos which you have a problem with?

      The dogs found not a jot of evidence in 2007 which made them a total irrelevance then and even more of an irrelevance now.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 12:50:05 AM
      The dogs found not a jot of evidence in 2007 which made them a total irrelevance then and even more of an irrelevance now.

      You wish. SY have got springer spaniels back on the case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 10, 2015, 01:17:08 AM
      You wish. SY have got springer spaniels back on the case.
      If it hadn't been for a sighting deflecting all attention exclusively to the east and northeast, NPIA might IMO have selected for EVRD all garden type areas around 5 and 4 and also immediately west over road.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 10, 2015, 01:23:05 AM
      The dogs found not a jot of evidence in 2007 which made them a total irrelevance then and even more of an irrelevance now.

      not a very logical answer to a question about how it wasn't teamwork or efficient lol

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 10, 2015, 01:40:09 AM
      It has to be said the whole dog anathema = protesteth too much with period pads pig blood toenails and plasters and all the other bollocks


      some peopel have to realise/accept, yes, it IS a possibility Madeline McCann died in that flat, whether it can be worked out when and how,  or not, and not bust their guts to try and prove that she couldn't "possibly" have done so
      TAKE NOTE
      it will do you good
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 10, 2015, 02:09:06 AM
      Which one was that? And are you inferring somethng?
      Pegasus is right btw that 8/10 of the vehicles inspected were related to Murat (his own, his mothers, his gf and her ex, and Malinka) the other two being the Mccanns and the Gorrods


      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm

      993 to 994  External diligence re: Robert Murat rental vehicle 2007.05.13   


       
       04 Volume IV, pp. 993 to 994


      The PJ had a search warrant for the same vehicle for the cadaver dog inspection but the car never made it to the underground parking lot. 

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 10, 2015, 02:32:35 AM

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm

      993 to 994  External diligence re: Robert Murat rental vehicle 2007.05.13   


       
       04 Volume IV, pp. 993 to 994


      The PJ had a search warrant for the same vehicle for the cadaver dog inspection but the car never made it to the underground parking lot.

      Thanks...and? You reckon Murat was involved? Where the evidences?

      just give me ONE
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 07:02:51 AM
      Which one was that? And are you inferring somethng?
      Pegasus is right btw that 8/10 of the vehicles inspected were related to Murat (his own, his mothers, his gf and her ex, and Malinka) the other two being the Mccanns and the Gorrods

      No, I'm not inferring anything.

      There was a vehicle Murat hired that never made the line-up.

      I've no idea why.

      I'm not aware that the decision (not to include that vehicle) had anything to do with Murat.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 07:04:38 AM

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/ROBERT-MURAT.htm

      993 to 994  External diligence re: Robert Murat rental vehicle 2007.05.13   


       
       04 Volume IV, pp. 993 to 994


      The PJ had a search warrant for the same vehicle for the cadaver dog inspection but the car never made it to the underground parking lot.

      Thank you Misty.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 07:41:20 AM
      It has to be said the whole dog anathema = protesteth too much with period pads pig blood toenails and plasters and all the other bollocks


      some peopel have to realise/accept, yes, it IS a possibility Madeline McCann died in that flat, whether it can be worked out when and how,  or not, and not bust their guts to try and prove that she couldn't "possibly" have done so
      TAKE NOTE
      it will do you good

      most of us have been saying for years that maddie may have died in the apartment..
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 10, 2015, 07:54:24 AM
      It has to be said the whole dog anathema = protesteth too much with period pads pig blood toenails and plasters and all the other bollocks


      some peopel have to realise/accept, yes, it IS a possibility Madeline McCann died in that flat, whether it can be worked out when and how,  or not, and not bust their guts to try and prove that she couldn't "possibly" have done so
      TAKE NOTE
      it will do you good

      I really think you are quite arrogant calling what experienced people in their field have said  bollocks.

      I think it would do YOU good to realise that it is a possibility that Eddie alerted to something which had blood on it and was removed,   something that any one of the family who stayed in 5a after the McCann's could have deposited then removed.

      Eddie didn't really bother with the bedroom at all,  he would have just ran out from there if Grime hadn't called him back on numerous occasions.

      In the end I think the poor dog just barked at a scent he recognised [blood]   just to finish the whole exercise.

      If Grime hadn't known it was the McCann's apartment would that have happened?   



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 08:08:31 AM
      It has to be said the whole dog anathema = protesteth too much with period pads pig blood toenails and plasters and all the other bollocks


      some peopel have to realise/accept, yes, it IS a possibility Madeline McCann died in that flat, whether it can be worked out when and how,  or not, and not bust their guts to try and prove that she couldn't "possibly" have done so
      TAKE NOTE
      it will do you good

      I totally agree.

      Then it is hardly surprising given what the mccans actually admitted in the hacking inquiry, which was more than plainly obvious.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 08:13:27 AM
      I really think you are quite arrogant calling what experienced people in their field have said  bollocks.

      I think it would do YOU good to realise that it is a possibility that Eddie alerted to something which had blood on it and was removed,   something that any one of the family who stayed in 5a after the McCann's could have deposited then removed.

      Eddie didn't really bother with the bedroom at all,  he would have just ran out from there if Grime hadn't called him back on numerous occasions.

      In the end I think the poor dog just barked at a scent he recognised [blood]   just to finish the whole exercise.

      If Grime hadn't known it was the McCann's apartment would that have happened?

      Perhaps you should accept that Grime was the expert in this. He knew how to use his dogs and he knew what they did and did not alert to - he trained them and tested them constantly. Fantasising about what Eddie was thinking and about what you think he was alerting to is also arrogant in my opinion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 08:17:03 AM
      Perhaps you should accept that Grime was the expert in this. He knew how to use his dogs and he knew what they did and did not alert to - he trained them and tested them constantly. Fantasising about what Eddie was thinking and about what you think he was alerting to is also arrogant in my opinion.
      re: your last sentence: isn't that what the "Dogs Don't Lie" brigade have been doing for the last 8 years?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 08:20:30 AM
      Perhaps you should accept that Grime was the expert in this. He knew how to use his dogs and he knew what they did and did not alert to - he trained them and tested them constantly. Fantasising about what Eddie was thinking and about what you think he was alerting to is also arrogant in my opinion.

      Grime has made it clear he cannot confirm what the dog's alerted to...that is absolutely clear..it is you and other sceptics on her who want to contradict what Grime says...arrogance no...there is a much better word
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 08:21:01 AM
      Perhaps you should accept that Grime was the expert in this. He knew how to use his dogs and he knew what they did and did not alert to - he trained them and tested them constantly. Fantasising about what Eddie was thinking and about what you think he was alerting to is also arrogant in my opinion.

      Well put G-Unit. 8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 08:22:49 AM
      I totally agree.

      Then it is hardly surprising given what the mccans actually admitted in the hacking inquiry, which was more than plainly obvious.

      it's interesting you agree with a poster who has managed to get so much wrong...not my opinion but a fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 08:26:29 AM
      it's interesting you agree with a poster who has managed to get so much wrong...not my opinion but a fact

      It is pleasant for once to have woken up and see a BS claim to have been removed from the forum , on this thread.

      I presume any more will be dealt with in the same way.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 08:27:35 AM
      It is pleasant for once to have woken up and see a BS claim to have been removed from the forum , on this thread.

      I presume any more will be dealt with in the same way.

      what claim was that
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 08:30:20 AM
      what claim was that


       @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 08:32:09 AM

       @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      You mean my experience with the remnant scent of pheasants...I think most people realise that was a wind up...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 08:35:02 AM
      re: your last sentence: isn't that what the "Dogs Don't Lie" brigade have been doing for the last 8 years?

      No idea Alfred, you're much more interested in what other people in other places think than I am.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 08:37:55 AM
      You mean my experience with the remnant scent of pheasants...I think most people realise that was a wind up...

      Most people realize it for exactly what it was. 8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 08:38:53 AM
      Most people realize it for exactly what it was. 8)--))

      they would have to be stupid not too
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 08:44:09 AM
      they would have to be stupid not too

      Actually most people know pure BS when they see it. 8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 08:57:32 AM
      Actually most people know pure BS when they see it. 8)-)))

      apart from you it seems...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 09:01:34 AM
      apart from you it seems...

      In your dreams. 8(*(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 10, 2015, 09:14:02 AM
      Perhaps you should accept that Grime was the expert in this. He knew how to use his dogs and he knew what they did and did not alert to - he trained them and tested them constantly. Fantasising about what Eddie was thinking and about what you think he was alerting to is also arrogant in my opinion.

      I am not being arrogant,  just quoting what other experts have said about cadaver dogs whilst studying them.   Of course Eddie wouldn't come into this category would he,  he being a very special cadaver dog.

      I don't call the alerts bollocks,   I just give the evidence that these very experienced people have found about cadaver dogs.   I would say dismissing these people and what they have written is arrogance.

      Grime did train Eddie,  he may well test his dogs regularly,  but Eddie was trained to find blood,  he was trained on pig carcasses.    Grime wouldn't be able to say that Eddie did NOT alert to blood that had been on an article and taken away because he wouldn't know what Eddie was alerting to.    He covered everything when he said without a body the alerts more or less mean nothing.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 09:19:13 AM
      I am not being arrogant,  just quoting what other experts have said about cadaver dogs whilst studying them.   Of course Eddie wouldn't come into this category would he,  he being a very special cadaver dog.

      I don't call the alerts bollocks,   I just give the evidence that these very experienced people have found about cadaver dogs.   I would say dismissing these people and what they have written is arrogance.

      Grime did train Eddie,  he may well test his dogs regularly,  but Eddie was trained to find blood,  he was trained on pig carcasses.    Grime wouldn't be able to say that Eddie did NOT alert to blood that had been on an article and taken away because he wouldn't know what Eddie was alerting to.    He covered everything when he said without a body the alerts more or less mean nothing.

      Please remind me of what traces of pig residue was found.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 10, 2015, 09:21:59 AM
      Please remind me of what traces of pig residue was found.

      Please stop repeating these silly questions.

      Was the soil of the garden tested?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 09:35:00 AM
      Please stop repeating these silly questions.

      Was the soil of the garden tested?

      It is not a silly question.

      You are claiming that some of the alerts could be due to pigs.

      and you can whine on until the end of time, but there were no traces of pig residue in the samples collected.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 09:44:27 AM
      I am not being arrogant,  just quoting what other experts have said about cadaver dogs whilst studying them.   Of course Eddie wouldn't come into this category would he,  he being a very special cadaver dog.

      I don't call the alerts bollocks,   I just give the evidence that these very experienced people have found about cadaver dogs.   I would say dismissing these people and what they have written is arrogance.

      Grime did train Eddie,  he may well test his dogs regularly,  but Eddie was trained to find blood,  he was trained on pig carcasses.    Grime wouldn't be able to say that Eddie did NOT alert to blood that had been on an article and taken away because he wouldn't know what Eddie was alerting to.    He covered everything when he said without a body the alerts more or less mean nothing.

      You have read about other dogs and other experts, but two dogs and one expert were involved in this case.The handler had trained and used Eddie for years, so in my opinion he is the only expert who can comment on the dog's capabilities. Eddie alerted in two ways. When he barked with his head in the air he was alerting to a scent he had been trained to find, but the source of the scent wasn't there. This is what he did in the bedroom. When he barked at a certain spot, the source of the scent was still there. That's what he did behind the sofa, as Keela confirmed.

      Grimes opinion was that Eddie alerted to cadaver scent contamination in the bedroom. Not blood, toenails, dead pigs or fertilizer, he alerted to the smell of a dead human being. I will take the word of the man who had the dog since he was a puppy, who trained him and used him for eight years over any other opinions relating to other dogs and other circumstances.

      The dogs don't 'think' by the way, their response is a Pavlovian response, a simple cause and effect operation. They smell something, they alert. After eight years of deployment Eddie wouldn't have been used if he was unreliable. He wouldn't have still been working if he alerted to all sorts of random substances.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 10, 2015, 10:24:53 AM
      You have read about other dogs and other experts, but two dogs and one expert were involved in this case.The handler had trained and used Eddie for years, so in my opinion he is the only expert who can comment on the dog's capabilities. Eddie alerted in two ways. When he barked with his head in the air he was alerting to a scent he had been trained to find, but the source of the scent wasn't there. This is what he did in the bedroom. When he barked at a certain spot, the source of the scent was still there. That's what he did behind the sofa, as Keela confirmed.

      Grimes opinion was that Eddie alerted to cadaver scent contamination in the bedroom. Not blood, toenails, dead pigs or fertilizer, he alerted to the smell of a dead human being. I will take the word of the man who had the dog since he was a puppy, who trained him and used him for eight years over any other opinions relating to other dogs and other circumstances.

      The dogs don't 'think' by the way, their response is a Pavlovian response, a simple cause and effect operation. They smell something, they alert. After eight years of deployment Eddie wouldn't have been used if he was unreliable. He wouldn't have still been working if he alerted to all sorts of random substances.

      Grimes OPINION was that Eddie alerted to cadaver scent contamination in the bedroom,   well that's just his opinion isn't it,   nothing factual.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 10, 2015, 10:27:05 AM
      It is not a silly question.

      You are claiming that some of the alerts could be due to pigs.

      and you can whine on until the end of time, but there were no traces of pig residue in the samples collected.

      Pig blood Stephen which is one of things that Eddie would have been trained to alert to as he was trained with dead pig.

      Who is whining?    I am debating.     No pig residue was in any samples collected,  but they didn't get a sample of the soil in the garden did they?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 10, 2015, 10:29:46 AM
      Anyone else think there would have been more blood behind the sofa if Madeleine had hit her head and bled?

      I find it strange that if Madeleine had fallen hit her head and bled behind that sofa,   that a larger area of tiles would have had some blood under them.

      Just a tiny miniscule of blood under one tile.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 10:35:18 AM
      You have read about other dogs and other experts, but two dogs and one expert were involved in this case.The handler had trained and used Eddie for years, so in my opinion he is the only expert who can comment on the dog's capabilities. Eddie alerted in two ways. When he barked with his head in the air he was alerting to a scent he had been trained to find, but the source of the scent wasn't there. This is what he did in the bedroom. When he barked at a certain spot, the source of the scent was still there. That's what he did behind the sofa, as Keela confirmed.

      Grimes opinion was that Eddie alerted to cadaver scent contamination in the bedroom. Not blood, toenails, dead pigs or fertilizer, he alerted to the smell of a dead human being. I will take the word of the man who had the dog since he was a puppy, who trained him and used him for eight years over any other opinions relating to other dogs and other circumstances.

      The dogs don't 'think' by the way, their response is a Pavlovian response, a simple cause and effect operation. They smell something, they alert. After eight years of deployment Eddie wouldn't have been used if he was unreliable. He wouldn't have still been working if he alerted to all sorts of random substances.

      Grime never said that...you are perpetuating lies.  Your's...and the whole sceptic case is based on a lie
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 10:47:08 AM
      Anyone else think there would have been more blood behind the sofa if Madeleine had hit her head and bled?

      I find it strange that if Madeleine had fallen hit her head and bled behind that sofa,   that a larger area of tiles would have had some blood under them.

      Just a tiny miniscule of blood under one tile.

      Q: What do you think is the meaning of the blood behind the sofa?

      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id173.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 10:50:40 AM
      Q: What do you think is the meaning of the blood behind the sofa?

      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id173.html

      In traces so minute you needed a dog to find it?

      Who knows.

      Could have been anything.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 10:51:35 AM
      Grime never said that...you are perpetuating lies.  Your's...and the whole sceptic case is based on a lie

      Grime is not a forensic scientist either.

      It was never his job to interpret the results of the forensic examination.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 10:54:04 AM
      Grime is not a forensic scientist either.

      It was never his job to interpret the results of the forensic examination.

      Neither was it his job to express erroneous opinions about "cadaver scent".

      But he did.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 10:59:16 AM
      Grime is not a forensic scientist either.

      It was never his job to interpret the results of the forensic examination.

      read the post...I am referring to the fact that it is a lie to say Grime said the dogs alerted to cadaver scent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 11:00:05 AM
      Q: What do you think is the meaning of the blood behind the sofa?

      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id173.html

      Which of those articles from the link should we be reading?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 11:05:33 AM
      Which of those articles from the link should we be reading?

      A: Possibly from an attempt at resuscitation. (GA)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 11:12:43 AM
      read the post...I am referring to the fact that it is a lie to say Grime said the dogs alerted to cadaver scent


      Now more crucially, did he say they didn't ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 11:18:01 AM

      Now more crucially, did he say they didn't ?

      no he didn't...but anyone with any intelligence...and that rules a few out...understands that the alerts may or may not be to cadaver scent...not that they are
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 10, 2015, 11:22:35 AM
      A: Possibly from an attempt at resuscitation. (GA)

      Why did the forensics cop need resuscitating? His was the only DNA that provided a reasonable match.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 11:22:47 AM
      no he didn't...but anyone with any intelligence...and that rules a few out...understands that the alerts may or may not be to cadaver scent...not that they are

      Dogs don't have an agenda.

      They are trained to respond to certain stimuli.

      These dogs did. 8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 10, 2015, 11:40:57 AM
      Dogs don't have an agenda.

      They are trained to respond to certain stimuli.

      These dogs did. 8)-)))

      What stimuli is the question though isn't it?

      What stimuli did Eddie alert to in Jersey?

      What was Grime's explanation for the alert that Eddie give in Jersey?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 10, 2015, 11:46:02 AM
      Why did the forensics cop need resuscitating? His was the only DNA that provided a reasonable match.
      The FSS got two matches in the area, one from the forensics chappie under the tile, thus presumably deposited after the tile was lifted, and another from on top of a tile.  The spot on top of the tile matched Madeleine (according to the FSS) but in miniscule quantity and not tested for or identified as blood.

      Gonçalo was speculating as to what might have happened re alerts and some DNA from Madeleine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 11:55:53 AM
      Dogs don't have an agenda.

      They are trained to respond to certain stimuli.

      These dogs did. 8)-)))

      Grime doesn't say that..you are perpetuating lies
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 11:57:21 AM
      The FSS got two matches in the area, one from the forensics chappie under the tile, thus presumably deposited after the tile was lifted, and another from on top of a tile.  The spot on top of the tile matched Madeleine (according to the FSS) but in miniscule quantity and not tested for or identified as blood.

      Gonçalo was speculating as to what might have happened re alerts and some DNA from Madeleine.

      it wasn't a match for Maddie
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 12:04:28 PM
      Grime doesn't say that..you are perpetuating lies


      What I typed is not a lie.

       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 12:07:02 PM
      Dogs don't have an agenda.

      They are trained to respond to certain stimuli.

      These dogs did. 8)-)))

      that is a lie



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 12:09:24 PM


      Try giving a logical and  coherent reply.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 10, 2015, 12:12:39 PM
      it wasn't a match for Maddie

      According to Lowe -

      "An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid."
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 12:13:11 PM


      could you remove your post from mine
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 12:14:36 PM
      According to Lowe -

      "An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid."

      that doesn't mean it is a match for maddie

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 12:14:58 PM


      Why could Eddie "detect" an odour on cuddle cat only after it had been hidden, not while he could sniff it, pick it up and play with it?

      Would could Eddie "detect" an odour on clothing in the gym he could find no trace of when the same clothing was in the villa?

      Is it good practice for dogs to trample all over stuff being examined for (for possible) forensic significance?

      Or for a dog to pick stuff up in its mouth?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 12:16:17 PM

      Try giving a logical and  coherent reply.

      anyone who says the dogs alerted to cadaver is telling a lie....the dogs may have alerted to cadaver is the truth
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 12:19:34 PM
      Why could Eddie "detect" an odour on cuddle cat only after it had been hidden, not while he could sniff it, pick it up and play with it?

      Would could Eddie "detect" an odour on clothing in the gym he could find no trace of when the same clothing was in the villa?

      Is it good practice for dogs to trample all over stuff being examined for (for possible) forensic significance?

      Or for a dog to pick stuff up in its mouth?

      I see you are now trying to be an expert in forensics.

      Do you have any academic  qualifications in science. I'm not asking for personal details. Just a generic inquiry ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 12:21:27 PM
      I see you are now trying to be an expert in forensics.

      Do you have any academic  qualifications in science. I'm not asking for personal details. Just a generic inquiry ?

      are you an expert in forensics...on what authority do you claim eddie alerted to cadaver when Grime cannot confirm that
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 10, 2015, 12:39:24 PM
      According to Lowe -

      "An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid."

      Firstly, here are the last three results you are expecting

      An incomplete DNA result was obtained from cellular material on the swab 3a. The swab contained very little information and showed low level indications of DNA from more than one person. However, all of the confirmed DNA components within this result match the corresponding components in the DNA profile of Madeline McCann. LCN DNA profiling is highly sensitive, it is not possible to attribute this DNA profile to a particular body fluid.

      There is no evidence to support the view that Madeline McCann contributed DNA to the swab 3B

      A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeline has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37
      components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contnbutors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/conclusion.

      Why?...

      Well, lets look at the question that is being asked

      "Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab?"

      It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

      What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others
      . Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. It's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible, in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

      Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is a chance match.

      The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation

      What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling?

      When was the DNA deposited?
      How was the DNA deposited?
      What body fluid(s) does the DNA originate from?
      Was a crime committed?

      These, along with all other results, will be formalised in a final report

      Please don't hesitate to contact me if you require any further assistance

      kind regards
      John
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 10, 2015, 01:04:54 PM
      Any chance of us all getting back and sticking with the topic? Please.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 01:11:15 PM
      Grimes OPINION was that Eddie alerted to cadaver scent contamination in the bedroom,   well that's just his opinion isn't it,   nothing factual.

      The opinion of the man who trained dogs for years and who worked with Eddie for years, so an informed opinion, not 'just' an opinion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 01:11:50 PM
      are you an expert in forensics...on what authority do you claim eddie alerted to cadaver when Grime cannot confirm that

      I don't claim to be an expert dave.

      Haven't you understood that yet ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 01:13:43 PM
      The opinion of the man who trained dogs for years and who worked with Eddie for years, so an informed opinion, not 'just' an opinion.

      Precisely.

      then we have the google experts who think they know more than Grime...........................
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 01:28:24 PM
      Precisely.

      then we have the google experts who think they know more than Grime...........................

      I'm in total agreement with grime it is you and gunit who is not
      Grime does not confirm cadaver odour
      He uses the word suggestive
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 01:31:10 PM
      I'm in total agreement with grime it is you and gunit who is not
      Grime does not confirm cadaver odour
      He uses the word suggestive

      You are putting words in my mouth, yet again.

      Try to refrain from such habits.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 01:38:03 PM
      You are putting words in my mouth, yet again.

      Try to refrain from such habits.

      Your post is there for all to see
      I accept everything Grime says as being true
      I don't believe Eddie reacted to cadaver odour
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 01:39:57 PM
      Grime never said that...you are perpetuating lies.  Your's...and the whole sceptic case is based on a lie

      I'm getting somewhat fed up of being called a liar. the next person to do so will be reported.

      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 01:47:16 PM
      Grime doesn't say that..you are perpetuating lies



      We are thereby able to 'train' the dog using conditioned responses to stimuli.

      Pavlov's theory is used in the case of the E.V.R.D. system of alert. He has been 'conditioned' to give a verbal alert when  coming into contact with 'dead body scent'. The presence of tangible material is not required to produce the response merely the scent itself.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 01:47:27 PM
      Your post is there for all to see
      I accept everything Grime says as being true
      I don't believe Eddie reacted to cadaver odour

      What you believe as with your posts, is totally irrelevant.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 01:58:16 PM
      I'm in total agreement with grime it is you and gunit who is not
      Grime does not confirm cadaver odour
      He uses the word suggestive

      With your scientific interests i expect you know this, but anyway;

      Scientists and researchers often use the word suggestive to describe results that indicate a strong possibility of something without decisively proving it:
      http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/suggestive
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 10, 2015, 02:12:36 PM
      I'm in total agreement with grime it is you and gunit who is not
      Grime does not confirm cadaver odour
      He uses the word suggestive

      What do you believe he meant by :
      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.

      Given even the most basic definition of the adjective "suggestive".
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 02:15:47 PM
      I'm getting somewhat fed up of being called a liar. the next person to do so will be reported.

      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      Then please stick to the truth
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 02:18:01 PM
      With your scientific interests i expect you know this, but anyway;

      Scientists and researchers often use the word suggestive to describe results that indicate a strong possibility of something without decisively proving it:
      http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/suggestive

      I don't accept that argument at all
      Grime is not a scientist
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 02:20:33 PM
      What do you believe he meant by :
      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.

      Given even the most basic definition of the adjective "suggestive".

      What I or anyone else thinks is totally irrelevant
      Grime needs to explain what he said
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 02:26:09 PM
      What do you believe he meant by :
      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.

      Given even the most basic definition of the adjective "suggestive".
      your forum name suggests that you are the female of the species.  Most people called Alice are female, with one or two exceptions.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 02:29:15 PM
      Then please stick to the truth

      What does that mean? Are you still accusing me of lying?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 02:36:12 PM
      I don't accept that argument at all
      Grime is not a scientist

      No reason given? No alternative definition of 'suggestive'? No basis for your declaration therefore.

      (No-one said Grime was a scientist, but you have been known to claim scientific knowledge, so I thought you may have known what 'suggestive' meant. Obviously not)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 02:41:44 PM
      your forum name suggests that you are the female of the species.  Most people called Alice are female, with one or two exceptions.

      Alice is uncommon as a baby name for boys. At the modest height of its usage in 1906, 0.014% of baby boys were given the name Alice. It ranked at #504 then. The baby name has since markedly declined in popularity, and is today of infrequent use.
      http://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Alice/m
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 02:42:41 PM
      Alice is uncommon as a baby name for boys. At the modest height of its usage in 1906, 0.014% of baby boys were given the name Alice. It ranked at #504 then. The baby name has since markedly declined in popularity, and is today of infrequent use.
      http://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Alice/m
      Indeed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 02:45:33 PM
      What I or anyone else thinks is totally irrelevant
      Grime needs to explain what he said

      I agree, your thoughts are irrelevant. What is relevant is the opinion of an experienced dog trainer and handler.Grime should explain to whom? To you? Why? It seems perfectly clear to me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 02:51:06 PM
      In his rogatory interview grime was asked on two occasions if the alerts confirmed cadaver odour
      He dodged both questions
      My opinion is that if cadaver odour is confirmed then the mccanns have some serious questions to answer
      But it is not confirmed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 02:52:08 PM
      No reason given? No alternative definition of 'suggestive'? No basis for your declaration therefore.

      (No-one said Grime was a scientist, but you have been known to claim scientific knowledge, so I thought you may have known what 'suggestive' meant. Obviously not)

      Posting on a phone at work
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 02:55:03 PM
      I agree, your thoughts are irrelevant. What is relevant is the opinion of an experienced dog trainer and handler.Grime should explain to whom? To you? Why? It seems perfectly clear to me.

      Grime doesn't have to explain to anyone but until he does we don't know what he means by suggestive..... What it means to you is irrelevant .... It's what grime means that's important and we don't know
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 02:55:59 PM
      I agree, your thoughts are irrelevant. What is relevant is the opinion of an experienced dog trainer and handler.Grime should explain to whom? To you? Why? It seems perfectly clear to me.
      If it's perfectly clear to you then what conclusions have you drawn regarding the presence or otherwise of a cadaver in Apartment 5a in May 2007?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 02:57:25 PM
      No reason given? No alternative definition of 'suggestive'? No basis for your declaration therefore.

      (No-one said Grime was a scientist, but you have been known to claim scientific knowledge, so I thought you may have known what 'suggestive' meant. Obviously not)

      I don't know what grime means by suggestive and neither do you
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 10, 2015, 04:11:06 PM
      your forum name suggests that you are the female of the species.  Most people called Alice are female, with one or two exceptions.

      Alf you are trolling.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 10, 2015, 04:14:32 PM
      I don't know what grime means by suggestive and neither do you

      Having established you don't know what it means does it follow that others don't either?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 04:22:35 PM
      Having established you don't know what it means does it follow that others don't either?

      No evidence was forthcoming as a result of the dogs visit to Praia da Luz ... in other words, they found nothing ... and are therefore an irrelevance.

      Well that is 'suggestive' of the value of their visit to me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 10, 2015, 04:28:29 PM
      No evidence was forthcoming as a result of the dogs visit to Praia da Luz ... in other words, they found nothing ... and are therefore an irrelevance.

      Well that is 'suggestive' of the value of their visit to me.

      Was anything the dogs turned up sent for analysis by FSS ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 04:34:55 PM
      Was anything the dogs turned up sent for analysis by FSS ?

                                                                               Yes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 04:37:12 PM
      No evidence was forthcoming as a result of the dogs visit to Praia da Luz ... in other words, they found nothing ... and are therefore an irrelevance.

      Well that is 'suggestive' of the value of their visit to me.

      If of no value why post on this thread ? *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 04:39:09 PM
      If of no value why post on this thread ? *&*%£

                  For the simple reason ... it pleases me to exercise my human right to freedom of speach.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 04:44:10 PM
                  For the simple reason ... it pleases me to exercise my human right to freedom of speach.

      Do what you wish.

      It won't change people's minds on here as regards this.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 04:46:43 PM
      Do what you wish.

      It won't change people's minds on here as regards this.

      I pointed out a long time ago that whatever is posted on here no one will change their mind
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 10, 2015, 04:48:50 PM
                                                                               Yes.

      Then it is subject to the report by Mr John Lowe ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 04:57:02 PM
      Having established you don't know what it means does it follow that others don't either?
      Yes
      They may think they know what grime means .
      Three posters today have said the dogs alerted to cadaver scent
      Grime has not said that as you know
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 05:00:00 PM
      I think grime was severely embarrassed at the result of his trip to PDL and was deliberately vague
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 05:01:59 PM
      Do what you wish.

      It won't change people's minds on here as regards this.

      The work of the dogs is a fascinating subject about which there is a myriad of unbiased information available.  Mr Grime's being one of the expert opinions available to us through the medium of his statements in the files.
      So enlightenment lies not with me but just a read away ~ I recommend it to you.

      It was misunderstanding of the dogs capabilities which led Mr Amaral down the wrong path;  I get the impression that he didn't take expert advice when it was on hand ... anyone know if he met and spoke with Mr Grime after the dogs had been out on the job?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 05:04:19 PM
      Then it is subject to the report by Mr John Lowe ?

      I would have to look up the files to give an accurate response to your questions ... I don't intend to ... maybe you feel up to it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 05:04:41 PM
      I think grime was severely embarrassed at the result of his trip to PDL and was deliberately vague

      He put one embarrassment behind him and marched on triumphantly to another embarrassment at HdLg.

      Albeit a very lucrative embarrassment.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 05:11:28 PM
      Alf you are trolling.
      No I am not.  I am giving a practical demonstration of the meaning of "suggestive".   8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 05:14:17 PM
      I think grime was severely embarrassed at the result of his trip to PDL and was deliberately vague


      I agree with that;  the newspaper leaks must have been an unprecedented experience for him;  "100% DNA" headlines and other such nonsense must have come as a bit of a surprise.

      Imo I am sure he must have been mortified as well as offended by the release of the files ~ despite the fact his statements show him in a good light. It is misinterpretation and wishful thinking that has caused the problem.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 06:03:11 PM
      He put one embarrassment behind him and marched on triumphantly to another embarrassment at HdLg.

      Albeit a very lucrative embarrassment.

      The true embarrassment is your continued pursuit of Grime in 'support' of the mccanns.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 06:26:07 PM
      Well, lots of opinions given but the fact remains experienced dog Eddie alerted in an empty bedroom and his experienced trainer and handler said the alert was suggestive of an alert to cadaver scent contamination, or the smell of a dead human body. Clearly we can't smell this odour until it has developed further, but dogs can and do. Eddie had alerted to this scent before, so Grime should know an alert when he sees it.

      Some have said the dog was tired, or was alerting to other things, or was 'clearing his nose'(?), or his handler was cuing him. He was taken to a lot of locations, however, and alerted only to items belonging to the McCanns.

      It isn't admissible evidence, so why try to discredit the dog and his handler?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 06:49:41 PM
      Well, lots of opinions given but the fact remains experienced dog Eddie alerted in an empty bedroom and his experienced trainer and handler said the alert was suggestive of an alert to cadaver scent contamination, or the smell of a dead human body. Clearly we can't smell this odour until it has developed further, but dogs can and do. Eddie had alerted to this scent before, so Grime should know an alert when he sees it.

      Some have said the dog was tired, or was alerting to other things, or was 'clearing his nose'(?), or his handler was cuing him. He was taken to a lot of locations, however, and alerted only to items belonging to the McCanns.

      It isn't admissible evidence, so why try to discredit the dog and his handler?

      so why did Grime not confirm the presence of cadaver odour...IMO because he wasn't sure
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 06:56:31 PM
      Well, lots of opinions given but the fact remains experienced dog Eddie alerted in an empty bedroom and his experienced trainer and handler said the alert was suggestive of an alert to cadaver scent contamination, or the smell of a dead human body. Clearly we can't smell this odour until it has developed further, but dogs can and do. Eddie had alerted to this scent before, so Grime should know an alert when he sees it.

      Some have said the dog was tired, or was alerting to other things, or was 'clearing his nose'(?), or his handler was cuing him. He was taken to a lot of locations, however, and alerted only to items belonging to the McCanns.

      It isn't admissible evidence, so why try to discredit the dog and his handler?

      Grime got his name in lights as a free lance operator.

      That's what freelance operators tend to do.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 06:58:09 PM
      Well, lots of opinions given but the fact remains experienced dog Eddie alerted in an empty bedroom and his experienced trainer and handler said the alert was suggestive of an alert to cadaver scent contamination, or the smell of a dead human body. Clearly we can't smell this odour until it has developed further, but dogs can and do. Eddie had alerted to this scent before, so Grime should know an alert when he sees it.

      Some have said the dog was tired, or was alerting to other things, or was 'clearing his nose'(?), or his handler was cuing him. He was taken to a lot of locations, however, and alerted only to items belonging to the McCanns.

      It isn't admissible evidence, so why try to discredit the dog and his handler?

      the whole point is that eddie repeatedly did not alert before being called back several times and imo almost being forced to alert...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 07:08:55 PM
      Well, lots of opinions given but the fact remains experienced dog Eddie alerted in an empty bedroom and his experienced trainer and handler said the alert was suggestive of an alert to cadaver scent contamination, or the smell of a dead human body. Clearly we can't smell this odour until it has developed further, but dogs can and do. Eddie had alerted to this scent before, so Grime should know an alert when he sees it.

      Some have said the dog was tired, or was alerting to other things, or was 'clearing his nose'(?), or his handler was cuing him. He was taken to a lot of locations, however, and alerted only to items belonging to the McCanns.

      It isn't admissible evidence, so why try to discredit the dog and his handler?
      Maybe for the same reason that you take every opportunity to discredit the McCanns?  Just a thought...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 07:39:03 PM
      Maybe for the same reason that you take every opportunity to discredit the McCanns?  Just a thought...

      I don't. Only in the minds of those who think that pointing out inconsistencies in their story is discrediting them.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 10, 2015, 07:52:50 PM
      The work of the dogs is a fascinating subject about which there is a myriad of unbiased information available.  Mr Grime's being one of the expert opinions available to us through the medium of his statements in the files.
      So enlightenment lies not with me but just a read away ~ I recommend it to you.

      It was misunderstanding of the dogs capabilities which led Mr Amaral down the wrong path;  I get the impression that he didn't take expert advice when it was on hand ... anyone know if he met and spoke with Mr Grime after the dogs had been out on the job?

      Mr. Grime is not a forensic scientist.

      Did you think he was ? 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 08:59:05 PM
      no one in authority takes the alerts seriously
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 09:03:11 PM
      no one in authority takes the alerts seriously

      They weren't taken seriously at the time because they had no evidential value ... nothing has changed in the interim.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 10, 2015, 09:04:52 PM
      They weren't taken seriously at the time because they had no evidential value ... nothing has changed in the interim.

      I would say that after the statement by the pj grime has lost a lot of credibility
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Admin on September 10, 2015, 10:18:42 PM
      Any further disruption of this thread will have consequences!

      Admin
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carlymichelle on September 10, 2015, 10:23:30 PM
      my opinion is  if keela and eddies alerts  didnt mean anything   mcann supporters wouldnt  even be worred about them but they are so???....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 10, 2015, 10:34:42 PM
      my opinion is  if keela and eddies alerts  didnt mean anything   mcann supporters wouldnt  even be worred about them but they are so???....

      What else (does the theory that the McCannsdunit) rest on?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 10:37:12 PM
      I don't. Only in the minds of those who think that pointing out inconsistencies in their story is discrediting them.
      Erm...yes, I do, just as pointing out inconsistencies in the dog alerts you would interpret as discrediting them.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2015, 08:06:15 AM
      Erm...yes, I do, just as pointing out inconsistencies in the dog alerts you would interpret as discrediting them.

      The 'inconsistencies' in the dog alerts are in the eye of the beholder. They are opinions. The inconsistencies in the McCann's stories are documented. They are facts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 11, 2015, 08:18:06 AM
      The 'inconsistencies' in the dog alerts are in the eye of the beholder. They are opinions. The inconsistencies in the McCann's stories are documented. They are facts.
      what difference doesnit make?  You still use them to continually discredit the objects of your contempt.  Why do you do this when, subject to the most intense scrutiny, the McCanns have been found guilt of no crime?   It is sheer hypocrisy to lambast one set of people for criticising Grime and the dogs whilst having no issue whatsoever with another set of people picking holes in the McCanns and their friends day in, day out.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 08:44:55 AM
      The 'inconsistencies' in the dog alerts are in the eye of the beholder. They are opinions. The inconsistencies in the McCann's stories are documented. They are facts.

      It is in the eye of hard evidence, not the beholder, that Eddie could only "detect" a scent on cuddle-cat after it was hidden in a cupboard, not while he could play with it.

      It is in the eye of hard evidence that clothing that, apparently, yielded no scent in the villa became scent-laden in the gym.

      There is no logical or coherent reason why clothing should have been inspected at all, let alone twice.

      By comparison, heated debate about whether the McCanns entered the villa through the "front" door or the "back" door really pales into insignificance ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2015, 08:48:14 AM
      what difference doesnit make?  You still use them to continually discredit the objects of your contempt.  Why do you do this when, subject to the most intense scrutiny, the McCanns have been found guilt of no crime?   It is sheer hypocrisy to lambast one set of people for criticising Grime and the dogs whilst having no issue whatsoever with another set of people picking holes in the McCanns and their friends day in, day out.

      There is a huge difference between criticism based on opinion and inconsistencies which are recorded and factual.

      The McCanns have not been found guilty of any crime, true. They would have to be charged and tried for that to happen. Even so, they were made arguidos and that didn't happen just because a couple of dogs alerted, there were other reasons too.

      Finally, I would be grateful if you would leave analysis of my motives and character out of the debate. I don't accuse you of character defects because it's meaningless, I don't know you and you don't know me.











       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 08:51:25 AM
      There is a huge difference between criticism based on opinion and inconsistencies which are recorded and factual.

      The McCanns have not been found guilty of any crime, true. They would have to be charged and tried for that to happen. Even so, they were made arguidos and that didn't happen just because a couple of dogs alerted, there were other reasons too.

      Finally, I would be grateful if you would leave analysis of my motives and character out of the debate. I don't accuse you of character defects because it's meaningless, I don't know you and you don't know me.

      It was only once Grime set to work with his dogs that suspicion started to fall on the McCanns and their friends.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2015, 08:57:43 AM
      It is in the eye of hard evidence, not the beholder, that Eddie could only "detect" a scent on cuddle-cat after it was hidden in a cupboard, not while he could play with it.

      It is in the eye of hard evidence that clothing that, apparently, yielded no scent in the villa became scent-laden in the gym.

      There is no logical or coherent reason why clothing should have been inspected at all, let alone twice.

      By comparison, heated debate about whether the McCanns entered the villa through the "front" door or the "back" door really pales into insignificance ....

      A prime example of what I just said to Alfred. You aren't an expert on how these dogs work. Grime is. He trained  and handled them and did the work in Portugal and then gave his assessment of what happened. Your opinions of the dog's work is of no importance, it's just a layman's opinion with no factual basis.

      The discussion about doors is based on inconsistent witness statements, not on opinions of which door someone used.

      The PJ were suspicious of the McCann's story before the dogs were used.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 09:02:41 AM
      A prime example of what I just said to Alfred. You aren't an expert on how these dogs work. Grime is. He trained  and handled them and did the work in Portugal and then gave his assessment of what happened. Your opinions of the dog's work is of no importance, it's just a layman's opinion with no factual basis.

      The discussion about doors is based on inconsistent witness statements, not on opinions of which door someone used.

      The PJ were suspicious of the McCann's story before the dogs were used.

      I think you'll find that my opinion of how the dogs work (in conjunction with their handler) is widely shared.

      The inquiry by Wiltshire Police into the Haut de la Garenne fiasco was deeply scathing of the role of Grime with his dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 09:07:23 AM
      what difference doesnit make?  You still use them to continually discredit the objects of your contempt.  Why do you do this when, subject to the most intense scrutiny, the McCanns have been found guilt of no crime?   It is sheer hypocrisy to lambast one set of people for criticising Grime and the dogs whilst having no issue whatsoever with another set of people picking holes in the McCanns and their friends day in, day out.

      This case starts and finishes with the mccanns, unless proved otherwise.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 09:08:34 AM
      I think you'll find that my opinion of how the dogs work (in conjunction with their handler) is widely shared.

      The inquiry by Wiltshire Police into the Haut de la Garenne fiasco was deeply scathing of the role of Grime with his dogs.

      Provide the link to the report.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2015, 09:15:20 AM
      Provide the link to the report.

      http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

      I have posted it quite a few times as have others ... guess what, I Googled it ... pity your search engine seems to be kaput.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 09:20:07 AM
      http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

      I have posted it quite a few times as have others ... guess what, I Googled it ... pity your search engine seems to be kaput.

      I would recommend very strongly that you watch events unfold in the Abuse Inquiry.

      The story of the care home is far from over, as the involvement of those in authority who have covered up child abuse.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2015, 09:20:21 AM
      This case starts and finishes with the mccanns, unless proved otherwise.

      The case starts with the discovery of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann ... the case will finish either when she is found or the person who took her is found.
      It seems the opinion of the PJ and SY is that finding Madeleine and/or finding her abductor is not an impossibility ... I look forward to the case being resolved when she id found.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 09:20:57 AM
      Provide the link to the report.

      3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
      Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
      Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
      Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
      serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
      July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
      accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
      ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
      days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
      3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by    X of the NPIA
      questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
      time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
      acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
      Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
      review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
      to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
      utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
      review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
      interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is
      accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that
      any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated.
      In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference
      for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent
      use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of
      DCO HARPER.
      3.10.13 CO POWER himself states ‘the search dog seemed to play a
      significant role in determining whether a specific location needed to
      be examined further. I am not an expert on dogs or what they do’.
      3.10.14 Again, there is a distinct lack of documentary evidence to show any
      intrusive supervision of the SIO with regard to the continued search.
      This Inquiry concludes that the actions of DCO HARPER and
      Martin GRIME went unsupervised for some considerable time. To
      Page 116 of 383


      Supervision Highly Confidential – Personal Information
      CO POWER’s credit, there is an e-mail exchange between him and
      DCO HARPER dated 10 May 2008 in which CO POWER raises the
      question of the continued use of Martin GRIME and his EVRD. He
      says ‘Lenny, it has struck me for some time that he [Mr GRIME] is an
      expensive resource who has more than his fair shared of down time’.
      DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him
      though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search
      coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks.
      Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the
      matter further.
      3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate.
      Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully
      employed. In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject
      Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement
      Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise
      Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
      operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
      investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
      evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay
      purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.
      3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER
      accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog
      handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again,
      Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’. This
      Inquiry has been unable to establish whether CO POWER made any
      further attempts to supervise the SIO in this key part of the
      investigation.
      3.10.17 OFFICER X concludes ‘decisions should be made based on
      professional policing judgement and evidence. When you look at the
      facts, the excavation and searching of Haut De La Garenne… was
      not justified’.


      Operation Rectangle

      http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 09:28:17 AM
      The case starts with the discovery of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann ... the case will finish either when she is found or the person who took her is found.
      It seems the opinion of the PJ and SY is that finding Madeleine and/or finding her abductor is not an impossibility ... I look forward to the case being resolved when she id found.

      Yet the crime is unknown.


      As for the abductor, that is merely a belief, started by the mccanns, and for which no forensic or other evidence exists at all that could bring a conviction, let alone an arrest.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2015, 09:45:23 AM
      Yet the crime is unknown.


      As for the abductor, that is merely a belief, started by the mccanns, and for which no forensic or other evidence exists at all that could bring a conviction, let alone an arrest.

      Madeleine McCann is missing.  Even as we speak two highly professional National policing bodies are looking for an abductor after an in-depth assessment lasting years.  That is good enough for me.

      Imo one of the failures of the Amaral investigation was failing to find out what happened to Madeleine... another was muddying the waters of future investigations by his misinterpretation of the lack of significance of the dogs and the little forensic evidence not destroyed by initial amateurish collection procedures.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 09:55:35 AM
      3.10.11 We now deal with the introduction of Martin GRIME and his Enhanced
      Victim Recovery Dog (EVRD) to Operation Rectangle. Operation
      Haven has established through enquiry with the NPIA, that
      Martin GRIME was an ACPO accredited dog handler whilst he was a
      serving police officer, but forfeited accreditation upon his retirement in
      July 2007. We mentioned that Mr GRIME remains on the ACPO
      accredited list of experts though his EVRD is no longer accredited by
      ACPO. Whilst Martin GRIME’s original contract to Jersey was for five
      days, his actual deployment lasted for 130 days.
      3.10.12 The forensic review carried out by    X of the NPIA
      questioned the presence of Martin GRIME on site for such a long
      time. X , was informed that Martin GRIME had been
      acting as a Deputy Crime Scene Manager to Forensic Service
      Manager X , at the request of DCO HARPER. The forensic
      review noted Martin GRIME’s lack of formal training or qualifications
      to perform the role of Deputy Forensic Service Manager and that to
      utilise him in this role ‘cannot be recognised as good practice’. The
      review also noted that ‘there was concern from some persons
      interviewed that too much reliance had been placed on the dogs’. It is
      accepted that dogs are ‘presumptive screening assets’ only and that
      any alerts or indications they give must be forensically corroborated.
      In addition, it is a fact that there were no concise terms of reference
      for the deployment of Martin GRIME and his EVRD or his subsequent
      use as a search advisor, apparently with the support of
      DCO HARPER.
      3.10.13 CO POWER himself states ‘the search dog seemed to play a
      significant role in determining whether a specific location needed to
      be examined further. I am not an expert on dogs or what they do’.
      3.10.14 Again, there is a distinct lack of documentary evidence to show any
      intrusive supervision of the SIO with regard to the continued search.
      This Inquiry concludes that the actions of DCO HARPER and
      Martin GRIME went unsupervised for some considerable time. To
      Page 116 of 383


      Supervision Highly Confidential – Personal Information
      CO POWER’s credit, there is an e-mail exchange between him and
      DCO HARPER dated 10 May 2008 in which CO POWER raises the
      question of the continued use of Martin GRIME and his EVRD. He
      says ‘Lenny, it has struck me for some time that he [Mr GRIME] is an
      expensive resource who has more than his fair shared of down time’.
      DCO HARPER replied in the same e-mail string ‘to be fair to him
      though, he hasn’t got much down time as he is also the NPIA search
      coordinator and is fully employed’. CO POWER replies ‘Thanks.
      Better understood now’. CO POWER does not appear to pursue the
      matter further.
      3.10.15 However, DCO HARPER’s reply was not factually accurate.
      Martin GRIME was neither an NPIA search advisor nor fully
      employed. In his statement, Martin GRIME states that ‘I am a Subject
      Matter Expert registered with the UK National Policing Improvement
      Agency and specialist homicide canine search advisor… I advise
      Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the
      operational deployment of police dogs in the role of homicide
      investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable
      evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training’. His expertise lay
      purely in the use of dogs in searching, not as a 'search co-ordinator'.
      3.10.16 OFFICER X notes that during conversation with X, CO POWER
      accepted that ‘the dog was ‘probably unreliable’ and that the dog
      handler, GRIME, had too much influence over the enquiry, again,
      Mr POWER didn’t say how he managed or dealt with that issue’. This
      Inquiry has been unable to establish whether CO POWER made any
      further attempts to supervise the SIO in this key part of the
      investigation.
      3.10.17 OFFICER X concludes ‘decisions should be made based on
      professional policing judgement and evidence. When you look at the
      facts, the excavation and searching of Haut De La Garenne… was
      not justified’.


      Operation Rectangle

      http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

      Unfortunately ferryman, the child abuse scandal is far from over.

      I suggest that what really happened in Jersey and elsewhere, will be revealed in due course, as will those who colluded in covering it up.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 09:59:27 AM
      Unfortunately ferryman, the child abuse scandal is far from over.

      I suggest that what really happened in Jersey and elsewhere, will be revealed in due course, as will those who colluded in covering it up.

      Somewhere in that Operation Havern report, too, you will find confirmation that Eddie, indeed, reacted to a coconut ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 09:59:46 AM
      Madeleine McCann is missing.  Even as we speak two highly professional National policing bodies are looking for an abductor after an in-depth assessment lasting years.  That is good enough for me.

      Imo one of the failures of the Amaral investigation was failing to find out what happened to Madeleine... another was muddying the waters of future investigations by his misinterpretation of the lack of significance of the dogs and the little forensic evidence not destroyed by initial amateurish collection procedures.


      I'm, afraid to disappoint you, but when has accidental death been disproved.

      Likewise, they can look for an abductor until the cows come home, but it doesn't mean one ever existed.

      There is no substitute for facts.

      Now tell me, where is there factual indisputable  evidence of abduction ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 10:01:08 AM
      Somewhere in that Operation Havern report, too, you will find confirmation that Eddie, indeed, reacted to a coconut ....

      That's an old one ferryman.

      What about secondary transfer ?

      It would be hardly surprising in the circumstances.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carlymichelle on September 11, 2015, 10:02:14 AM

      I'm, afraid to disappoint you, but when has accidental death been disproved.

      Likewise, they can look for an abductor until the cows come home, but it doesn't mean one ever existed.

      There is no substitute for facts.

      Now tell me, where is there factual indisputable  evidence of abduction ?

      brietta lives   in a  pretty nieve  fantasy world about the mcanns  imo
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 10:05:39 AM
      That's an old one ferryman.

      What about secondary transfer ?

      It would be hardly surprising in the circumstances.

      Thanks to the record of the PJ in the Madeleine enquiry, we know how searches are supposed to be conducted.

      You get a dog to screen an area in advance to rule out pre-existing scents, then you inspect whatever you want to inspect.

      If the area where the coconut was tested was not pre-screened before testing of the actual coconut, then Grime didn't do his job properly.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 10:09:58 AM
      and here's one for those who say dogs can't be trained to detect specific substances.

      ' 47,000 PHOTOS & 3000 VIDEOS of Child Pornography on a hidden flash drive which was found by a sniffer dog '

      http://archive.greatfallstribune.com/videonetwork/4445679263001/Electronic-sniffer-dog-found-Jared-Fogel-s-flash-drive-with-child-porn-stash


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 10:11:37 AM
      Thanks to the record of the PJ in the Madeleine enquiry, we know how searches are supposed to be conducted.

      You get a dog to screen an area in advance to rule out pre-existing scents, then you inspect whatever you want to inspect.

      If the area where the coconut was tested was not pre-screened before testing of the actual coconut, then Grime didn't do his job properly.

      Can you provide the categorical evidence that the dogs did not alert to a body in the mccann case ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 10:12:07 AM
      and here's one for those who say dogs can't be trained to detect specific substances.

      ' 47,000 PHOTOS & 3000 VIDEOS of Child Pornography on a hidden flash drive which was found by a sniffer dog '

      http://archive.greatfallstribune.com/videonetwork/4445679263001/Electronic-sniffer-dog-found-Jared-Fogel-s-flash-drive-with-child-porn-stash

      Out of curiosity who (at least here!) has ever said dogs can't be trained to detect specific substances?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2015, 10:19:18 AM
      http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20WiltshireOperationHavenRedacted%2020081112%20JN.pdf

      I have posted it quite a few times as have others ... guess what, I Googled it ... pity your search engine seems to be kaput.

      Groundhog day!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 10:20:42 AM
      Out of curiosity who (at least here!) has ever said dogs can't be trained to detect specific substances?

      The implication has been quite clear.

      Perhaps you should read through certain mccann supporters comments, as regard this.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2015, 10:33:27 AM
      and here's one for those who say dogs can't be trained to detect specific substances.

      ' 47,000 PHOTOS & 3000 VIDEOS of Child Pornography on a hidden flash drive which was found by a sniffer dog '

      http://archive.greatfallstribune.com/videonetwork/4445679263001/Electronic-sniffer-dog-found-Jared-Fogel-s-flash-drive-with-child-porn-stash

      I'm not even going to follow the link you have given since the premise you give is an entirely erroneous one.  I have not seen a single poster on here quibbling about what a dog can be trained to sniff out nor decrying their capability to do so.
      The problem you have is in failing to perceive that whatever the dog smells must be quantifiable so that the human end of the equation knows exactly what he is trying to convey.

      That confirmation in the unknown 'alerts' given by Eddie was absent and his 'alerts' made suspect and worthless by his actions around cuddlecat and the clothing in the gymnasium.
      Basing a hypothesis on suspect data is not the way forward just as reliance on one cadaver dog which seems to alert at the drop of a hat and for no good reason is.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2015, 10:35:22 AM
      Out of curiosity who (at least here!) has ever said dogs can't be trained to detect specific substances?

                                      I have never seen such a claim made on this Forum.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2015, 10:40:16 AM
      I think you'll find that my opinion of how the dogs work (in conjunction with their handler) is widely shared.

      The inquiry by Wiltshire Police into the Haut de la Garenne fiasco was deeply scathing of the role of Grime with his dogs.

      I haven't read the report completely, but i have skimmed it. The report was critical of the Police officers in charge of the investigation. I found criticism of the decision to use Grime in a role other than that of dog handler. I found criticism of officers telling the media about unconfirmed findings following the dog alerts. I found no direct criticism by the inquiry of Grime. If anyone can cut and paste the section showing criticism of Grime and his dogs by the inquiry I would be most grateful.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2015, 11:47:20 AM
      I haven't read the report completely, but i have skimmed it. The report was critical of the Police officers in charge of the investigation. I found criticism of the decision to use Grime in a role other than that of dog handler. I found criticism of officers telling the media about unconfirmed findings following the dog alerts. I found no direct criticism by the inquiry of Grime. If anyone can cut and paste the section showing criticism of Grime and his dogs by the inquiry I would be most grateful.

      There are some negative comments in witness statements but nothing in the Inquiry conclusions.
      But it keeps turning up like the proverbial bad penny.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 12:28:16 PM

      I'm, afraid to disappoint you, but when has accidental death been disproved.

      Likewise, they can look for an abductor until the cows come home, but it doesn't mean one ever existed.

      There is no substitute for facts.

      Now tell me, where is there factual indisputable  evidence of abduction ?

      There doesn't have to be evidence of abduction Stephen,  thank god you are not a police officer.

      Anyway that question was off topic.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 12:29:57 PM
      and here's one for those who say dogs can't be trained to detect specific substances.

      ' 47,000 PHOTOS & 3000 VIDEOS of Child Pornography on a hidden flash drive which was found by a sniffer dog '

      http://archive.greatfallstribune.com/videonetwork/4445679263001/Electronic-sniffer-dog-found-Jared-Fogel-s-flash-drive-with-child-porn-stash

      Can you tell me what that has to do with cadaver dogs Stephen?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 12:32:02 PM
      There doesn't have to be evidence of abduction Stephen,  thank god you are not a police officer.

      Anyway that question was off topic.

      No evidence, no case, no prosecution.

      As to policing , the mccanns and associates should all have been interviewed formally at the start of the SY investigation.

      They have never said they did, as they have with other people.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 12:32:41 PM
      Can you tell me what that has to do with cadaver dogs Stephen?

      You are kidding, aren't you ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 12:37:01 PM
      You are kidding, aren't you ?

      No,   no one knows what a cadaver dog can smell,  this dog could be trained with a scent that the trainer knows it will recognise.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 12:40:17 PM
      No evidence, no case, no prosecution.

      As to policing , the mccanns and associates should all have been interviewed formally at the start of the SY investigation.

      They have never said they did, as they have with other people.

      Why would SY say they interviewed the McCann's?   They no doubt started at the beginning and the beginning would be to interview the McCann's and friends,   because they don't put a notice in the paper saying 'Look we are interviewing the McCann's'   didn't mean they didn't.

      With you the abductor [yes I believe Madeleine was abducted]   would have had to leave a selfie before you believed she was abducted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 11, 2015, 01:09:07 PM
      The suggestion that the dogs somehow contributed something meaningful to the sum of knowledge about what happened to Madeleine?

      Yes, it does ....

      Who's been a naughty boy then Charon tampering with my post?
      I thought that was without forum rules?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 11, 2015, 01:17:21 PM
      Slipping Off topic.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 01:19:02 PM
      No,   no one knows what a cadaver dog can smell,  this dog could be trained with a scent that the trainer knows it will recognise.


      Have you read your own post here ?

      Dogs are trained to respond to specific stimuli, as in the example I gave earlier.

      What don't you understated about that ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 01:21:33 PM
      Why would SY say they interviewed the McCann's?   They no doubt started at the beginning and the beginning would be to interview the McCann's and friends,   because they don't put a notice in the paper saying 'Look we are interviewing the McCann's'   didn't mean they didn't.

      With you the abductor [yes I believe Madeleine was abducted]   would have had to leave a selfie before you believed she was abducted.

      They stated they were interviewing other people and this was broadcast in the media.

      It has never been once confirmed the mccanns or the rest have been interviewed.

      As to an abductor...............................

      Where's the evidence ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 01:47:18 PM

      Have you read your own post here ?

      Dogs are trained to respond to specific stimuli, as in the example I gave earlier.

      What don't you understated about that ?

      No one knows what makes up the scent of cadaver that the dogs smell,  it's not something a trainer can mix up in a bowl.

      So when a cadaver dog alerts,   it could be a number of things,  they could even alert to decaying vegetation.

      Where as a dog trained to alert to drugs or whatever can be given that scent as the trainer would know what to give the dog.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 01:53:43 PM
      No one knows what makes up the scent of cadaver that the dogs smell,  it's not something a trainer can mix up in a bowl.

      So when a cadaver dog alerts,   it could be a number of things,  they could even alert to decaying vegetation.

      Where as a dog trained to alert to drugs or whatever can be given that scent as the trainer would know what to give the dog.

      Oh dear, here we go again.

      Dogs are trained to respond to a specific group of compounds.

      It is then up to the forensic team to collect and analyse samples collected.

      As a reminder, no pig residues were found.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 11, 2015, 01:54:45 PM
      Eddie trained with real pure human cadaver scent.

      The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
      odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
      contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
      contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
      recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
      sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
      successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
      material. (MG)

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 11, 2015, 01:55:38 PM
      There is a huge difference between criticism based on opinion and inconsistencies which are recorded and factual.

      The McCanns have not been found guilty of any crime, true. They would have to be charged and tried for that to happen. Even so, they were made arguidos and that didn't happen just because a couple of dogs alerted, there were other reasons too.

      Finally, I would be grateful if you would leave analysis of my motives and character out of the debate. I don't accuse you of character defects because it's meaningless, I don't know you and you don't know me.
      I don't need to know you - I judge you by your posts alone and IMO it is hypocritical to lament the fact that Grime and his dogs have been criticised here, whilst at the same time repeatedly and often criticising the McCanns.   You may think you are entitled to, but who put Grime and the dogs above criticism in your view?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 02:00:17 PM
      Eddie trained with real pure human cadaver scent.

      The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
      odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
      contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
      contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
      recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
      sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
      successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
      material. (MG)

      You cannot compare a cadaver dog with other dogs trained to detect drugs etc.

      Can I ask you,   what did Eddie alert to in Jersey?  Could it have been decaying vegetation?   What did Grime say about the alert?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 02:03:26 PM
      Oh dear, here we go again.

      Dogs are trained to respond to a specific group of compounds.

      It is then up to the forensic team to collect and analyse samples collected.

      As a reminder, no pig residues were found.


      Here is a snip from an article about cadaver dogs -

      A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 11, 2015, 02:10:42 PM
      You cannot compare a cadaver dog with other dogs trained to detect drugs etc.

      Can I ask you,   what did Eddie alert to in Jersey?  Could it have been decaying vegetation?   What did Grime say about the alert?

      I don't know that Eddie alerted to in that case because I haven't seen the police files. A cadaver doesn't need to be still there for a dog to alert to the scent. The dogs in the Zapata case alerted 25 years later and no body was there but a body had been there.

      The dog has also been trained to identify cadaver scent contamination where
      there is no physically retrievable evidence, due to scent adhering to pervious
      material such as carpet or the upholstery in motor vehicles. (MG)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 02:11:44 PM
      Another snip for you Stephen -


      (1) Sometimes they get waylaid by any decaying organic matter (e.g. a rotten log), and similar chemical signatures make it impossible for them to distinguish between humans and pigs. Thus, handlers are taught always to be on the alert for false positives; and
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 02:15:42 PM
      Another snip for you Stephen -


      (1) Sometimes they get waylaid by any decaying organic matter (e.g. a rotten log), and similar chemical signatures make it impossible for them to distinguish between humans and pigs. Thus, handlers are taught always to be on the alert for false positives; and


      Here's a little snip for you.

      I already know that.

      No 'rotten logs' were in the apartment.

      No pig residue was detected.

      Next................
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 02:19:29 PM
      Eddie trained with real pure human cadaver scent.

      The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent'
      odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not
      contact the subject. This method is comparable to the simulation of cross
      contamination. It does however differ in that the remote scent samples
      recovery does not involve subject matter and therefore is a 'pure' scent
      sample. The dog has since initial training gained considerable experience in
      successfully operationally locating human remains and evidential forensic
      material. (MG)

      One thing at a time.

      Where, outside Eddie and Grime, has the "enhanced" category of victim recovery dog ever existed?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 02:21:16 PM

      Here's a little snip for you.

      I already know that.

      No rotten logs were in the apartment.

      No pig residue was detected.

      Next................


      Doh,  it doesn't have to be a log,   decaying vegetation Stephen,  like what you would find in the garden?

      No pig residue was detected because they didn't test the soil in the garden.

      Now do you see why Cadaver dogs can't be compared to other dogs?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 02:24:03 PM

      Doh,  it doesn't have to be a log,   decaying vegetation Stephen,  like what you would find in the garden?

      No pig residue was detected because they didn't test the soil in the garden.

      Now do you see why Cadaver dogs can't be compared to other dogs?

      I was being sardonic.

      You simply do not get it.

      You're just clutching at straws.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 02:27:58 PM
      I was being sardonic.

      You simply do not get it.

      You're just clutching at straws.

      I think it's you who doesn't get it.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 02:29:33 PM
      I think it's you who doesn't get it.

      No, I get exactly what you're doing.

      Clutching at straws, again and again and again.................................
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2015, 02:32:26 PM
      No one knows what makes up the scent of cadaver that the dogs smell,  it's not something a trainer can mix up in a bowl.

      So when a cadaver dog alerts,   it could be a number of things,  they could even alert to decaying vegetation.

      Where as a dog trained to alert to drugs or whatever can be given that scent as the trainer would know what to give the dog.

      In the Uk the dogs are trained using decaying piglets because the scent is very similar. In parts of the US dogs are trained using human remains. Eddie was trained using both. It's not just the handler who cannot replicate the smell; scientists can't. Just because it can't be replicated doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Trained dogs know the scent they are searching for and alert when they find it. Speculating about other things they may alert to is useless. They alert to the scent they have been trained to find. They do this often enough for law enforcement people to have confidence in them. That's why they use them.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 02:37:06 PM
      In the Uk the dogs are trained using decaying piglets because the scent is very similar. In parts of the US dogs are trained using human remains. Eddie was trained using both. It's not just the handler who cannot replicate the smell; scientists can't. Just because it can't be replicated doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Trained dogs know the scent they are searching for and alert when they find it. Speculating about other things they may alert to is useless. They alert to the scent they have been trained to find. They do this often enough for law enforcement people to have confidence in them. That's why they use them.

      Precisely G-Unit.  8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2015, 02:38:27 PM
      I don't need to know you - I judge you by your posts alone and IMO it is hypocritical to lament the fact that Grime and his dogs have been criticised here, whilst at the same time repeatedly and often criticising the McCanns.   You may think you are entitled to, but who put Grime and the dogs above criticism in your view?

      You are missing my point again. If people use an objective factual basis for criticism I don't have a problem with that. Most of the criticism of Grime and the dogs is opinion-based. Use objective facts for criticism, not your own opinions and I will debate using objective facts. Opinion is subjective so it's not relevant.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 02:51:00 PM
      You are missing my point again. If people use an objective factual basis for criticism I don't have a problem with that. Most of the criticism of Grime and the dogs is opinion-based. Use objective facts for criticism, not your own opinions and I will debate using objective facts. Opinion is subjective so it's not relevant.
      t

      Critique of Grime and his dog is entirely factually based.

      It is a fact that there is no reference to the "enhanced" category of victim recovery dog outside Grime and his dog.

      It is a fact that clothing not alerted to in the villa was, apparently, alerted to in the gym.

      It is a fact that Grime disregarded principles of cross-contamination in his dogs' inspection of clothing.

      It is a fact that Harrison described both inspections of villa and in the gym as "PJ exercises"

      It is a fact that there is no mention, in the files, of the inspection in the gym until just before it is about to happen.

      The inspection at the villa does, at least, get a prior mention well in advance of the inspection.  The inspection in the gym does not, until (as I say) it is about to happen.

      It is a fact that, just as there was an innocent scent in the Renault Scenic, there might easily have been innocent scents in any of the other 9 cars, which might have risked confusion for the dog.

      It is a fact only one car in the line-up of 10 had find Madeleine stickers plastered all over the back window, which ties in with the study Alfred found us of the influence of bias in distorting the relationship between handler and dog.

      It is a fact that Grime himself, in his profile, states that handler-influence can be responsible for a dog alerting falsely.

      Nothing above is opinion

      It is all fact!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 03:02:10 PM
      In the Uk the dogs are trained using decaying piglets because the scent is very similar. In parts of the US dogs are trained using human remains. Eddie was trained using both. It's not just the handler who cannot replicate the smell; scientists can't. Just because it can't be replicated doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Trained dogs know the scent they are searching for and alert when they find it. Speculating about other things they may alert to is useless. They alert to the scent they have been trained to find. They do this often enough for law enforcement people to have confidence in them. That's why they use them.

      Oh for god sake,  for the last time,  the dogs can alert to other things too such as,  rotting vegetation, saliva, pig blood,

      Yes the police have confidence in them, but when no body is found,  they cannot hand on heart say that the dog alerted to cadaver scent can they?

      If there is a body then fine,   though any dog would find a dead body.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 03:04:40 PM
      I am not criticising Grime or Eddie,   I am just saying that Eddie could have alerted to something else other than cadaver scent,  as it has been said by all scientists that these dog can have false alerts.

      Grime covered himself for this by saying without any evidence [such as a body]   then the alerts are meaningless.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 03:07:15 PM
      You are missing my point again. If people use an objective factual basis for criticism I don't have a problem with that. Most of the criticism of Grime and the dogs is opinion-based. Use objective facts for criticism, not your own opinions and I will debate using objective facts. Opinion is subjective so it's not relevant.

      I have shown you facts,  you ignore them.

      These studies have been done in order to help the trainers of these dogs,  all trainers Grime included.   I am sorry but I don't know how you can say that Eddie would behave no different from all these other dogs.

      The fact remains that Eddie did give a false alert in Jersey.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 11, 2015, 03:10:04 PM
      No, I get exactly what you're doing.

      Clutching at straws, again and again and again.................................

      So how am I clutching at straws?

      I have given you written evidence from experienced people in the field of cadaver dogs.   They say they can alert to rotten vegetation,  saliva and pig,  as all of those have certain scents in relation to the odour of cadaver scent.

      Tell me how this is wrong and Eddie is separate from this,  and how he is separate from this.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 03:37:29 PM
      So how am I clutching at straws?

      I have given you written evidence from experienced people in the field of cadaver dogs.   They say they can alert to rotten vegetation,  saliva and pig,  as all of those have certain scents in relation to the odour of cadaver scent.

      Tell me how this is wrong and Eddie is separate from this,  and how he is separate from this.

      Supporters of the mccanns are very fond of 'evidence'.

      Now for the last time, what evidence was collected and showed any other organic residues, other than human in origin ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2015, 03:45:21 PM
      Supporters of the mccanns are very fond of 'evidence'.

      Now for the last time, what evidence was collected and showed any other organic residues, other than human in origin ?

      Even for you that is a very strange post to make. Evidence is the basis of any justice system ... with the obvious exception of kangaroo courts on the internet.

      Quite simply put ... there was no meaningful evidence uncovered by the dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 03:49:31 PM
      Even for you that is a very strange post to make. Evidence is the basis of any justice system ... with the obvious exception of kangaroo courts on the internet.

      Quite simply put ... there was no meaningful evidence uncovered by the dogs.

      Yet you persist in posting on this thread............................

      You won't change my mind as to what the dogs indicated.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2015, 04:05:34 PM
      Yet you persist in posting on this thread............................

      You won't change my mind as to what the dogs indicated.

      Not trying to change your mind, however even you must concede there is no way of knowing what it was the dog alerted to for the simple reason there was no evidence what it might have been.

      Nor having watched Eddie at work can any reliance be given to his responses during his time in Praia da Luz.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 11, 2015, 04:08:58 PM
      You are missing my point again. If people use an objective factual basis for criticism I don't have a problem with that. Most of the criticism of Grime and the dogs is opinion-based. Use objective facts for criticism, not your own opinions and I will debate using objective facts. Opinion is subjective so it's not relevant.
      OK - what independent testing of their abilities were Eddie and Keela subjected to?  We know Grime's opinion of their abilities but where is the objective truth (ie: like a 3rd party report) about them?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 11, 2015, 05:20:26 PM
      Yet you persist in posting on this thread............................

      You won't change my mind as to what the dogs indicated.

      OK Stephen. 

      What exactly did the dogs indicate?

      And what evidence is there for this?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2015, 06:20:52 PM
      so what evidence did the dogs find...nothing

      what do the alerts tell us...nothing

      that's it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2015, 06:27:11 PM
      You are missing my point again. If people use an objective factual basis for criticism I don't have a problem with that. Most of the criticism of Grime and the dogs is opinion-based. Use objective facts for criticism, not your own opinions and I will debate using objective facts. Opinion is subjective so it's not relevant.

      you talk about using objective facts but you posted yesterday that Grime said the dogs alerted to cadaver odour which is untrue
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 11, 2015, 06:36:24 PM
      Grime gave his opinion, he didn't state a fact.  As an expert his opinion may carry more weight than most, but it is still only an opinion, and it was expressed with all sorts of caveats.   An expert opinion isn't always correct anyway, which is why, in healthcare for example,  a second opinion is often recommended and sought by patients. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2015, 06:39:41 PM
      you talk about using objective facts but you posted yesterday that Grime said the dogs alerted to cadaver odour which is untrue

      I posted information from Grime's report, which I provided a link to. Are you calling him a liar?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2015, 06:43:04 PM
      I posted information from Grime's report, which I provided a link to. Are you calling him a liar?

      don't be silly..Grime never claimed the dogs alerted to cadaver odour...you did. you then started giving YOUR opinion about what he meant...so don't lecture anyone on giving their opinion
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2015, 06:50:06 PM
      Grime gave his opinion, he didn't state a fact.  As an expert his opinion may carry more weight than most, but it is still only an opinion, and it was expressed with all sorts of caveats.   An expert opinion isn't always correct anyway, which is why, in healthcare for example,  a second opinion is often recommended and sought by patients.

      The factual part is that I never gave my opinion, I gave his, with a link to show where I got it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 11, 2015, 06:51:24 PM
      The factual part is that I never gave my opinion, I gave his, with a link to show where I got it.
      ???  So you have no opinion on Grime or his opinion?  LOL.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2015, 06:54:29 PM
      The factual part is that I never gave my opinion, I gave his, with a link to show where I got it.

      You didn't give a true acount of what Grime said
      You missed out the word suggestive
      You then gave your opinion of what Grime meant by suggestive
      Those are the facts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2015, 07:08:28 PM
      You didn't give a true acount of what Grime said
      You missed out the word suggestive
      You then gave your opinion of what Grime meant by suggestive
      Those are the facts

      Short term memory loss?

      « on: September 10, 2015, 01:39:57 PM »
      Quote from: davel on September 10, 2015, 10:35:18 AM
      Grime never said that...you are perpetuating lies.  Your's...and the whole sceptic case is based on a lie

      I'm getting somewhat fed up of being called a liar. the next person to do so will be reported.

      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 11, 2015, 07:19:39 PM
      You have read about other dogs and other experts, but two dogs and one expert were involved in this case.The handler had trained and used Eddie for years, so in my opinion he is the only expert who can comment on the dog's capabilities. Eddie alerted in two ways. When he barked with his head in the air he was alerting to a scent he had been trained to find, but the source of the scent wasn't there. This is what he did in the bedroom. When he barked at a certain spot, the source of the scent was still there. That's what he did behind the sofa, as Keela confirmed.

      Grimes opinion was that Eddie alerted to cadaver scent contamination in the bedroom. Not blood, toenails, dead pigs or fertilizer, he alerted to the smell of a dead human being. I will take the word of the man who had the dog since he was a puppy, who trained him and used him for eight years over any other opinions relating to other dogs and other circumstances.

      The dogs don't 'think' by the way, their response is a Pavlovian response, a simple cause and effect operation. They smell something, they alert. After eight years of deployment Eddie wouldn't have been used if he was unreliable. He wouldn't have still been working if he alerted to all sorts of random substances.

      there you are,,,the memory loss is yours as expected
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 11, 2015, 07:43:49 PM
      there you are,,,the memory loss is yours as expected

      Same difference.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 11, 2015, 08:24:43 PM
      You didn't give a true acount of what Grime said
      You missed out the word suggestive
      You then gave your opinion of what Grime meant by suggestive
      Those are the facts

      Correct like he would have said about Eddie's alerts in the Theresa Parker and Kate Prout cases or any case without a body. Their husbands were found guilty without any evidence of a body. Cadaver dogs alerted in the Suzanne Pilley case but no body has been found.

      Suzanne Pilley was a 38-year-old bookkeeper from Edinburgh, Scotland, who went missing on the morning of 4 May 2010. Following a highly publicised appeal for information on her whereabouts and intensive police enquiries, her former lover, David Gilroy, was arrested and charged with her murder. He was found guilty by majority verdict on 15 March 2012 and sentenced to life imprisonment. The case is controversial because the prosecution obtained a murder conviction without a body. The body of Suzanne Pilley has never been found.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 11, 2015, 08:30:38 PM
      Same difference.
      @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 11, 2015, 08:34:51 PM
      @)(++(*

      Try reading what Grime said Alfred.  8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 11, 2015, 09:20:36 PM
      IMHO this thread is going from the sublime to the ridiculous and I don't see the point of it any more....

       &%5y%

      oh, please note any smarmy comments in reply  shall be ignored so don't even bother

       *&*%£

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 11, 2015, 09:40:31 PM
      Correct like he would have said about Eddie's alerts in the Theresa Parker and Kate Prout cases or any case without a body. Their husbands were found guilty without any evidence of a body. Cadaver dogs alerted in the Suzanne Pilley case but no body has been found.

      Suzanne Pilley was a 38-year-old bookkeeper from Edinburgh, Scotland, who went missing on the morning of 4 May 2010. Following a highly publicised appeal for information on her whereabouts and intensive police enquiries, her former lover, David Gilroy, was arrested and charged with her murder. He was found guilty by majority verdict on 15 March 2012 and sentenced to life imprisonment. The case is controversial because the prosecution obtained a murder conviction without a body. The body of Suzanne Pilley has never been found.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Suzanne_Pilley

      Scottish law allows uncorroborated dog alerts as evidence.

      English law doesn't.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 11, 2015, 10:58:16 PM
      Scottish law allows uncorroborated dog alerts as evidence.

      English law doesn't.

      No but English police use cadaver dogs to find cadavers and remant scents of them, (not spit and saliva or rotting salads)  no one would ask for anything less, and YES, the Met and SURREY police have evrds, I gave you Links last week, you ignored it, as you would, but continued to state as a fact that there are NO EVRDS apart from Eddie....as if it was some kind of lie, tell porkies, get caught out
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 11, 2015, 11:27:05 PM
      No but English police use cadaver dogs to find cadavers and remant scents of them, (not spit and saliva or rotting salads)  no one would ask for anything less, and YES, the Met and SURREY police have evrds, I gave you Links last week, you ignored it, as you would, but continued to state as a fact that there are NO EVRDS apart from Eddie....as if it was some kind of lie, tell porkies, get caught out
      There was a Met case where the perp is now in jail due entirely to an EVRD (our SIO had worked on this case). Was that a Met EVRD, or borrowed from another force, anyone know?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 11, 2015, 11:42:41 PM
      F
      There was a Met case where the perp is now in jail due entirely to an EVRD (our SIO had worked on this case). Was that a Met EVRD, or borrowed from another force, anyone know?

      I don't know the case, but it doesn't matter, the failed mission to denigrate  cadaver dogs  their abilities and their findings and  handlers is just that, failed 100 % and so embarrassing For them as wel as putting some ofthem in a position of LIBEL in this  case

      que the blah de blah rubbish

      It's almost sometimes as if some would self combust rather than consider there is the possibility of a dead body in 5a


      how sad and how sad some might damage the case of finding Madeleine's body



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 11, 2015, 11:50:01 PM
      There was a Met case where the perp is now in jail due entirely to an EVRD (our SIO had worked on this case). Was that a Met EVRD, or borrowed from another force, anyone know?

      Don't know about your case but Tito and Muzzy were brought in to search for Alice Gross.

      http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/alice-gross-missing-madeleine-mccann-4348073
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 12:35:33 AM
      Don't know about your case but Tito and Muzzy were brought in to search for Alice Gross.

      http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/alice-gross-missing-madeleine-mccann-4348073
      I was thinking of the Hazell case which was a Met case (and our now SIO was reportedly part of the team).
      Was the EVRD which solved that case owned by the Met, or brought in from another force?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2015, 01:00:39 AM
      Don't know about your case but Tito and Muzzy were brought in to search for Alice Gross.

      http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/alice-gross-missing-madeleine-mccann-4348073

      Tito and Muzzy do the same job as Eddie. All dogs can alert to blood.

      Tito and Muzzy both have a powerful sense of smell that helps them locate human remains, blood and fluid a human would be unable to trace.

      Handler Sally Richards said recently: “They are trained to find anything from tiny specks of blood which are hard for the human eye to see to a full-sized victim, and everything in between.”

      "You have no way of telling what Morse responded to at any location?" Johnson asked Grime.
      "He gave us a positive response," Grime said. "The corroboration would normally be to find a cadaver or bone or blood that you can see."
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 09:09:26 AM
      thousands of posts re the dogs but no sceptic will answer the question...what do the alerts tell us
      that is what is important
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 12, 2015, 09:53:14 AM
      thousands of posts re the dogs but no sceptic will answer the question...what do the alerts tell us
      that is what is important

      I will go with Grime, the man who trained and deployed the dogs. His professional opinion is of value because of his years of experience and his close relationship with the dogs. He tells us what they were trained to find, where they alerted, and what that means in his professional opinion. He quite properly points out that the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliabilty without supporting evidence, but he's clear about what he thinks  Eddie alerted to. Policemen are very aware of the need for facts and of the dangers of relying on opinion, but he still chose to express his opinion. That suggests confidence in Eddie's abilities.

      The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
      Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
      locate human remains or Human blood.


      The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
      alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
      evidence.

      Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
      alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
      indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant
      . This does not however
      suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
      number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
      reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
      corroborating evidence.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 09:56:47 AM
      I will go with Grime, the man who trained and deployed the dogs. His professional opinion is of value because of his years of experience and his close relationship with the dogs. He tells us what they were trained to find, where they alerted, and what that means in his professional opinion. He quite properly points out that the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliabilty without supporting evidence, but he's clear about what he thinks  Eddie alerted to. Policemen are very aware of the need for facts and of the dangers of relying on opinion, but he still chose to express his opinion. That suggests confidence in Eddie's abilities.

      The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
      Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
      locate human remains or Human blood.


      The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
      alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
      evidence.

      Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
      alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
      indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant
      . This does not however
      suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
      number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
      reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
      corroborating evidence.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      so what exactly do the alerts tell us..I too accept what Grime tells us
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2015, 12:01:34 PM
      thousands of posts re the dogs but no sceptic will answer the question...what do the alerts tell us
      that is what is important

      As a result of the alerts was anything found that was sent to FSS for analysis?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 12:23:24 PM
      As a result of the alerts was anything found that was sent to FSS for analysis?
      So still no answer
      What have the alerts told us
      What help have they been to the investigation apart from the fact that the best dogs in the world found no evidence Maddie died in the apartment
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 12:50:33 PM
      I will go with Grime, the man who trained and deployed the dogs. His professional opinion is of value because of his years of experience and his close relationship with the dogs. He tells us what they were trained to find, where they alerted, and what that means in his professional opinion. He quite properly points out that the alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliabilty without supporting evidence, but he's clear about what he thinks  Eddie alerted to. Policemen are very aware of the need for facts and of the dangers of relying on opinion, but he still chose to express his opinion. That suggests confidence in Eddie's abilities.

      The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating
      Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and
      locate human remains or Human blood.


      The dogs only alerted to property associated with the McCann family. The dog
      alert indications MUST be corroborated if to establish their findings as
      evidence.

      Therefore in this particular case, as no human remains were located, the only
      alert indications that may become corroborated are those that the CSI dog
      indicated by forensic laboratory analysis.

      My professional opinion as regards to the EVRD's alert indications is that it is
      suggestive that this is 'cadaver scent' contaminant
      . This does not however
      suggest a motive or suspect as cross contamination could be as a result of a
      number of given scenarios and in any event no evidential or intelligence
      reliability can be made from these alerts unless they can be confirmed with
      corroborating evidence.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      The wholly unprofessional opinions of a free-lance dog handler.

      This is nearer the mark:

      However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

      Mark Harrison

      And
       
       

       
      I am currently of the opinion on the available information and statistical datasets that if death has occurred, that it is possible that Madeleine McCann’s body has been disposed into the sea at Praia da Luz. (See my second report entitled “NPIA OP TASK Search Doc Beach and Marine”).

      Mark Harrison.

      Harrison never reached a definitive conclusion about what might have happened to Madeleine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2015, 12:55:13 PM
      So still no answer
      What have the alerts told us
      What help have they been to the investigation apart from the fact that the best dogs in the world found no evidence Maddie died in the apartment

      When I asked Brietta the same question she answered in the affirmative.
      By your body swerve, I take it you agree with her and that the dogs did indeed alert to something that was sent to FSS.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on September 12, 2015, 01:00:04 PM
      I cannot understand why so many posters put so much faith in the dogs. Eddie alerted according to his training but the cause of that alert is not known and might never be known.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 12, 2015, 01:06:29 PM
      When I asked Brietta the same question she answered in the affirmative.
      By your body swerve, I take it you agree with her and that the dogs did indeed alert to something that was sent to FSS.

      The tiles, grout, plant fragments and curtain were sent to FSS, Alice. Tell us what you are thinking. Don't leave me in suspenders.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2015, 01:09:09 PM
      I cannot understand why so many posters put so much faith in the dogs. Eddie alerted according to his training but the cause of that alert is not known and might never be known.

      This is so but does not sit well with the supporters.
      The thrust of the FSS report was that nothing could be ruled in and nothing could be ruled out ie it might be or it might not be. The dogs alerts contributed to this. It is far from the "dogs is crap there ain't no evidence to suggest blah de bloody dah.........." we are regaled with every hour on the hour as it were!  The FSS were going to play a straight bat as at that time the efficacy of the LCN technique was beginning to be called into question.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 01:14:56 PM
      This is so but does not sit well with the supporters.
      The thrust of the FSS report was that nothing could be ruled in and nothing could be ruled out ie it might be or it might not be. The dogs alerts contributed to this. It is far from the "dogs is crap there ain't no evidence to suggest blah de bloody dah.........." we are regaled with every hour on the hour as it were!  The FSS were going to play a straight bat as at that time the efficacy of the LCN technique was beginning to be called into question.

      Not sure anyone's suggested that.

      There might have been one or two (justly!) withering remarks about the dog-handling, though ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2015, 01:20:02 PM
      The tiles, grout, plant fragments and curtain were sent to FSS, Alice. Tell us what you are thinking. Don't leave me in suspenders.

      My thoughts are what the dogs did or didn't do was superseded by anything they turned up that was sent for analysis and reported on by the FSS. The dog was a specialist coarse screening tool nothing more nothing less.
      As a result the FSS appear to have said "we can't say it is nor can we say it isn't" which will have a different significance depending upon whether you are The Courts or The Cops.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 01:29:46 PM
      My thoughts are what the dogs did or didn't do was superseded by anything they turned up that was sent for analysis and reported on by the FSS. The dog was a specialist coarse screening tool nothing more nothing less.
      As a result the FSS appear to have said "we can't say it is nor can we say it isn't" which will have a different significance depending upon whether you are The Courts or The Cops.

      the important point there is why the FSS said that......looking at the wording they were asked a specific question.... did the retrieved sample come from Maddie. Their answer was it was impossible to say as the sample was so poor
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 01:30:39 PM
      When I asked Brietta the same question she answered in the affirmative.
      By your body swerve, I take it you agree with her and that the dogs did indeed alert to something that was sent to FSS.

      absolutely and the sample told us nothing...so in effect the dog's alert told us nothing
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 12, 2015, 01:32:54 PM
      My thoughts are what the dogs did or didn't do was superseded by anything they turned up that was sent for analysis and reported on by the FSS. The dog was a specialist coarse screening tool nothing more nothing less.
      As a result the FSS appear to have said "we can't say it is nor can we say it isn't" which will have a different significance depending upon whether you are The Courts or The Cops.

      Thank you Alice.
      So FSS said this about the tiles which showed blood of several people?
      I believe the curtain and plant had a negative result for blood or body fluids.
      They cant test for Cadaver scent , so you are absolutely correct........Nobody can possibly know whether the alerts were true or false...There is no corroborating evidence  either way.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on September 12, 2015, 01:39:31 PM
      Another fact which has always bothered me is why Eddie only alerted in 5a and not the other properties?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 01:42:31 PM
      absolutely and the sample told us nothing...so in effect the dog's alert told us nothing
      So if you had to write a short summary of the case, can we assume the dogs would not get a mention?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on September 12, 2015, 01:44:04 PM
      absolutely and the sample told us nothing...so in effect the dog's alert told us nothing

      It has certainly raised many questions though some of which even Gerry McCann felt he had to answer.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 01:55:41 PM
      This is so but does not sit well with the supporters.
      The thrust of the FSS report was that nothing could be ruled in and nothing could be ruled out ie it might be or it might not be. The dogs alerts contributed to this. It is far from the "dogs is crap there ain't no evidence to suggest blah de bloody dah.........." we are regaled with every hour on the hour as it were!  The FSS were going to play a straight bat as at that time the efficacy of the LCN technique was beginning to be called into question.

      It's sits very well with the supporters. The FSS said the sample could have come from just about anyone so could not exclude maddie...plus...so what if Maddie's dna was found in the car...what would that tell us...nothing again.
      What we have on the net is non scientists trying to interpret scientific results. The LCN technique has never been questioned...it's the interpretation of the results that is questionable.
      Using lcn dna my dna could be found in hundreds of places I had never been...do posters understand that
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 01:57:49 PM
      It has certainly raised many questions though some of which even Gerry McCann felt he had to answer.
      If you'd been accused of concealing a body and a cadaver dog alerted to your property you'd just accept it would you? Not attempt to explain it as possibly having another cause?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 02:12:29 PM
      Another fact which has always bothered me is why Eddie only alerted in 5a and not the other properties?

      because grime encouraged him to by repeatedly calling him back
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 12, 2015, 02:31:24 PM
      Another fact which has always bothered me is why Eddie only alerted in 5a and not the other properties?




      5A:

      31st jul 2007
      From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
      8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
      8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road.
      From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
      8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.

      5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

      5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (5 mins)

      5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

      4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins) second apartment for mccanns

      Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):

      9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.(11 mins

      ‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

      McCanns apartment search- 50 mins and garden11mins= 61mins
      Other apartments 3x3 mins  1X5 mins maximum
      ‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

      This timing can be seen here
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

      ETA
      correction missed
      In apartment 5A:
      * between 20h16 (typing error in the report shows 21h16) and 20h30 the "cadaver" dog alerted:
      - at 20h20 in the area of the wardrobe of the main bedroom
      - at 20h22 in the lounge, specifically behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.

      * between 20h47 and 21.20 the "blood" dog alerted:
      - at 21h10 in the lounge, specifically on the floor behind the sofa next to the wondow that overlooks the street.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 02:40:06 PM
      5A:

      31st jul 2007
      From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
      8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
      8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road.
      From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
      8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.

      5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

      5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (5 mins)

      5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

      4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins) second apartment for mccanns

      Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):

      9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.(11 mins

      ‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

      McCanns apartment search- 50 mins and garden11mins= 61mins
      Other apartments 3x3 mins  1X5 mins maximum
      ‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

      This timing can be seen here
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

      I would say that we can discuss this thread until the cows come home and it won't make a scrap of difference, as opinions are firmly entrenched.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 02:50:46 PM
      I'm happy to listen and consider any evidence...but the dog's alerts are totally meaningless...happy for someone to point out where I an wrong
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 02:58:26 PM
      because grime encouraged him to by repeatedly calling him back
      The handler cued Eddie to the wicker chair from the bedroom about 50 times.
      But Eddie did not alert to it.
      Cueing and calling back does not cause alerts Dave.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 03:14:48 PM
      The handler cued Eddie to the wicker chair from the bedroom about 50 times.
      But Eddie did not alert to it.
      Cueing and calling back does not cause alerts Dave.

      none of us know what caused the alerts...even grime...that's about it...what we do know is they have no evidential reliability
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 03:21:16 PM
      Another fact which has always bothered me is why Eddie only alerted in 5a and not the other properties?

      Don't know if chemicals were used in the initial searches for blood.  Can't find anything in the forensic reports about the 'Northern European male blood samples' allegedly found.

      There is also little in the literature about what exactly the inhibiting factor is, to which Mark Harrison referred ... although I think it destroys the scent of everything for the dogs ... which is probably why it is only used after the dogs have been through an area or in places too difficult for the dogs to access.

            "An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used."   
                 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

      We've seen the photographs of the fingerprint powder all over the place, and it is mentioned in the forensic report.

      Just my opinion, because I can't find information on the effects of luminol apart from the fact it does have an effect on the dogs ~ use of such chemicals and powders may well have left a 'crime scene smell' which the dog recognised and thus was primed to give a learned response in the area of what its nose was telling it there usually was one.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 03:25:19 PM
      none of us know what caused the alerts...even grime...that's about it...what we do know is they have no evidential reliability
      If I was a parent desperate to find what happened to my child I would take Eddie's alerts in the apartment very seriously and be discussing all the scenarios which that intelligence indicates.
      Not just dismissing them with a wave and a "no evidential value".
      This is not a court case Dave, this is about finding closure for the innocent relatives.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 03:26:56 PM
      Don't know if chemicals were used in the initial searches for blood.  Can't find anything in the forensic reports about the 'Northern European male blood samples' allegedly found.

      There is also little in the literature about what exactly the inhibiting factor is, to which Mark Harrison referred ... although I think it destroys the scent of everything for the dogs ... which is probably why it is only used after the dogs have been through an area or in places too difficult for the dogs to access.

            "An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used."   
                 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

      We've seen the photographs of the fingerprint powder all over the place, and it is mentioned in the forensic report.

      Just my opinion, because I can't find information on the effects of luminol apart from the fact it does have an effect on the dogs ~ use of such chemicals and powders may well have left a 'crime scene smell' which the dog recognised and thus was primed to give a learned response in the area of what its nose was telling it there usually was one.

      I think you have just found another important piece of the jig saw,,,well done
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 03:28:17 PM
      If I was a parent desperate to find what happened to my child I would take Eddie's alerts in the apartment very seriously and be discussing all the scenarios which that intelligence indicates.
      Not just dismissing them with a wave and a "no evidential value".
      This is not a court case Dave, this is about finding closure for the innocent relatives.

      it is Grime who has dismissed them...and rightly so
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 03:30:58 PM



      5A:

      31st jul 2007
      From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
      8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
      8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road.
      From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
      8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.

      5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

      5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (5 mins)

      5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins)

      4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything. (3 mins) second apartment for mccanns

      Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):

      9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.(11 mins

      ‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

      McCanns apartment search- 50 mins and garden11mins= 61mins
      Other apartments 3x3 mins  1X5 mins maximum
      ‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

      This timing can be seen here
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

      ETA
      correction missed
      In apartment 5A:
      * between 20h16 (typing error in the report shows 21h16) and 20h30 the "cadaver" dog alerted:
      - at 20h20 in the area of the wardrobe of the main bedroom
      - at 20h22 in the lounge, specifically behind the sofa next to the window that overlooks the street.

      * between 20h47 and 21.20 the "blood" dog alerted:
      - at 21h10 in the lounge, specifically on the floor behind the sofa next to the wondow that overlooks the street.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

      Apparently apartment 5A was given a disproportionate amount of time in relation to other apartments visited.

      If the apartment had been given the same amount of time as any of the others ... or if any or all of the others had been given the same amount of time as that given to 5A ... there may have been different responses recorded as demonstrably people do have innocent bleeds. 
      That could not have been unique to 5A.  At one time or another blood must have been shed in the other apartments.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 03:35:50 PM
      If I was a parent desperate to find what happened to my child I would take Eddie's alerts in the apartment very seriously and be discussing all the scenarios which that intelligence indicates.
      Not just dismissing them with a wave and a "no evidential value".
      This is not a court case Dave, this is about finding closure for the innocent relatives.

      Don't you think the parents will have already agonised over just that, Pegasus?  The anguish they must have felt when Tito and Muzzy were searching the mound must have been unbearable.
      Their questioning and any feelings they may have expressed will have been done privately and discretely.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 03:36:45 PM
      Don't know if chemicals were used in the initial searches for blood.  Can't find anything in the forensic reports about the 'Northern European male blood samples' allegedly found.

      There is also little in the literature about what exactly the inhibiting factor is, to which Mark Harrison referred ... although I think it destroys the scent of everything for the dogs ... which is probably why it is only used after the dogs have been through an area or in places too difficult for the dogs to access.

            "An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used."   
                 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

      We've seen the photographs of the fingerprint powder all over the place, and it is mentioned in the forensic report.

      Just my opinion, because I can't find information on the effects of luminol apart from the fact it does have an effect on the dogs ~ use of such chemicals and powders may well have left a 'crime scene smell' which the dog recognised and thus was primed to give a learned response in the area of what its nose was telling it there usually was one.
      Luminol etc also is not a good idea if DNA analysis of samples is going to be done.
      This is why, in early Aug 2007, no chemicals were used by PJ forensics to locate samples on the lounge floor and wall behind the sofa, just special lights.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 03:37:21 PM
      Apparently apartment 5A was given a disproportionate amount of time in relation to other apartments visited.

      If the apartment had been given the same amount of time as any of the others ... or if any or all of the others had been given the same amount of time as that given to 5A ... there may have been different responses recorded as demonstrably people do have innocent bleeds. 
      That could not have been unique to 5A.  At one time or another blood must have been shed in the other apartments.

      14 minutes in total for all the other apartments, and just short of an hour for apartment 5a

      Doubtless that was the dogs' fault ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 03:44:24 PM
      Luminol etc also is not a good idea if DNA analysis of samples is going to be done.
      This is why, in early Aug 2007, no chemicals were used by PJ forensics to locate samples on the lounge floor and wall behind the sofa, just special lights.

      I'm referring to the initial forensics which were carried out by the Portuguese team in May and later by a British team.

      I can find no reference in the files ... but there are newspaper reports from the time that luminol was used ... in particular the blood from the Northern European male was allegedly discovered using this technique.

      The semen sample which turned out to be saliva was found using lights.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2015, 03:48:00 PM
      It's sits very well with the supporters. The FSS said the sample could have come from just about anyone so could not exclude maddie...plus...so what if Maddie's dna was found in the car...what would that tell us...nothing again.
      What we have on the net is non scientists trying to interpret scientific results. The LCN technique has never been questioned...it's the interpretation of the results that is questionable.
      Using lcn dna my dna could be found in hundreds of places I had never been...do posters understand that

      Regina v Hoey ? which was running at the time and caused the suspension of LCN techniques until an investigation was carried out.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 03:50:27 PM
      Regina v Hoey ? which was running at the time and caused the suspension of LCN techniques until an investigation was carried out.

      caused the suspension of lcn being used as evidence....nothing wrong with lcn analysis...its the interpretation of the results that's the problem
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 03:53:01 PM
      Don't you think the parents will have already agonised over just that, Pegasus?  The anguish they must have felt when Tito and Muzzy were searching the mound must have been unbearable.
      Their questioning and any feelings they may have expressed will have been done privately and discretely.
      Looking at debate on this forum i've never seen any supporter suggest the "Eddie was right and it was a third party who entered the apartment and did it and both parents are completely innocent" theory. Mr Redwood was obviously considering it IMO. It's not anti-parent at all. So why do no supporters consider it? It could explain the bedroom lounge and garden alerts (and the clothing and vehicle alerts by transference onto clothes that were laying around in apartment that night).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2015, 03:54:40 PM
      caused the suspension of lcn being used as evidence....nothing wrong with lcn analysis...its the interpretation of the results that's the problem

      That is not quite what the judge said.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 04:00:44 PM
      That is not quite what the judge said.

      the judge was imprecise....LCN DNA is accepted as being accurate so why did the case collapse...it collapsed because even if the match was 100% accurate it could not be proved that the dna present was due to direct contact due to the small amounts involved in lcn analysis
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 12, 2015, 04:24:03 PM
      the judge was imprecise....LCN DNA is accepted as being accurate so why did the case collapse...it collapsed because even if the match was 100% accurate it could not be proved that the dna present was due to direct contact due to the small amounts involved in lcn analysis

      Well he would be wouldn't he  @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 04:27:59 PM
      Looking at debate on this forum i've never seen any supporter suggest the "Eddie was right and it was a third party who entered the apartment and did it and both parents are completely innocent" theory. Mr Redwood was obviously considering it IMO. It's not anti-parent at all. So why do no supporters consider it? It could explain the bedroom lounge and garden alerts (and the clothing and vehicle alerts by transference onto clothes that were laying around in apartment that night).

      If Madeleine was lifted by a predator it was done within a very tight time frame ... a very few minutes.  There simply was no time for anyone to hang around with a body and there would have been many more areas of contamination to cause 'alerts'.
      Did Eddie once even cast a glance at a door handle?
      I firmly believe madeleine was alive when she left the apartment.

      With reference to the DCI and his thoughts ... it is my opinion that the investigation latterly came into possession of intelligence which suggested the worst case scenario that Madeleine was dead.  This had to be checked out ... and I believe that is why Tito and Muzzy checked out the mound area.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 12, 2015, 04:31:47 PM
      Looking at debate on this forum i've never seen any supporter suggest the "Eddie was right and it was a third party who entered the apartment and did it and both parents are completely innocent" theory. Mr Redwood was obviously considering it IMO. It's not anti-parent at all. So why do no supporters consider it? It could explain the bedroom lounge and garden alerts (and the clothing and vehicle alerts by transference onto clothes that were laying around in apartment that night).

      Sorry, Pegasus. You have lost me.
       
      Do you believe that a third person entered the apartment and killed the child and then left her to develop VOCs and then came back and took her?

      Or do you believe that it was a death scent brought in by scenes of crime, police, or pig butcher/farmer?

      Or maybe a zombie or funeral home worker abducted her?

      Help us out please and tell us to what you are referring.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 04:36:44 PM
      If Madeleine was lifted by a predator it was done within a very tight time frame ... a very few minutes.  There simply was no time for anyone to hang around with a body and there would have been many more areas of contamination to cause 'alerts'.
      Did Eddie once even cast a glance at a door handle?
      I firmly believe madeleine was alive when she left the apartment.

      With reference to the DCI and his thoughts ... it is my opinion that the investigation latterly came into possession of intelligence which suggested the worst case scenario that Madeleine was dead.  This had to be checked out ... and I believe that is why Tito and Muzzy checked out the mound area.
      The very tight time frame could be solved if a hypothetical third party perp reenters the apartment to retreive something, long after the alarm. Anyone could walk in and out.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 05:54:36 PM
      14 minutes in total for all the other apartments, and just short of an hour for apartment 5a

      Doubtless that was the dogs' fault ....
      I had no idea there was such a huge discrepancy in the time spent on the apartment searches (of course a similar discrepancy on the car searches is obvious from watching the video).  No doubt the dog apologists will have a good reason for this. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 05:55:21 PM
      I had no idea there was such a huge discrepancy in the time spent on the apartment searches (of course a similar discrepancy on the car searches is obvious from watching the video).  No doubt the dog apologists will have a good reason for this.

      Have you seen the unedited videos  ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 05:57:19 PM
      Have you seen the unedited videos  ?
      I've seen the long version of the car search, and no video whatsoever of the non-5a apartment searches.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 06:05:24 PM
      I had no idea there was such a huge discrepancy in the time spent on the apartment searches (of course a similar discrepancy on the car searches is obvious from watching the video).  No doubt the dog apologists will have a good reason for this.
      Eddie was in 5A longer because of the large amount of interest he showed from the moment of reaching the front door.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 06:10:11 PM
      Eddie was in 5A longer because of the large amount of interest he showed from the moment of reaching the front door.
      It would be interesting to compare his behaviour on entering 5a with his behaviour on entering one of the other apartments - why are those videos not available?  Were those searches actually video'ed at all? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 12, 2015, 06:16:41 PM
      It would be interesting to compare his behaviour on entering 5a with his behaviour on entering one of the other apartments - why are those videos not available?  Were those searches actually video'ed at all?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4NMYPsFKb8&feature=youtu.be&t=38m10s

      It's on this video.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 06:33:52 PM
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4NMYPsFKb8&feature=youtu.be&t=38m10s

      It's on this video.
      Thanks.  Never seen that before.  Why were these searches done at night but Apt 5a during daylight hours, anyone know?  What body language is Eddie not exhibiting as he enters  the other apartments that he does within 2 minutes of entering Apt 5a? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 06:38:07 PM
      Also, why does Grime ask Eddie to smell inside a washing machine?  And he did seem very interested in under the beds in one of the other apartments, despite what Grime tells us  - that he wasn't interested!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 06:50:17 PM
      Also, why does Grime ask Eddie to smell inside a washing machine?  And he did seem very interested in under the beds in one of the other apartments, despite what Grime tells us  - that he wasn't interested!

      Grime did exercise some bizarre judgements.

      We know Eddie reacted to spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key.  But remembering, always, that they were looking for Madeleine's blood, what possessed Grime to suppose it might be found there?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 06:53:19 PM
      It's pointless us trying to explain everything without all the information
      Things that appear to have no explanation can often be explained very simply
      Remember my son working out the answer to the advanced maths question
      What seemed impossible had a very simple explanation
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 12, 2015, 06:55:28 PM
      Also, why does Grime ask Eddie to smell inside a washing machine?  And he did seem very interested in under the beds in one of the other apartments, despite what Grime tells us  - that he wasn't interested!

      Pegasus provided the link to that video a few weeks back.
      Yes, Eddie was very interested under the bed in 5H.
      It also shows the dog retrieving the kebab from the kitchen bin in another apartment.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 08:12:51 PM
      Also, why does Grime ask Eddie to smell inside a washing machine?  And he did seem very interested in under the beds in one of the other apartments, despite what Grime tells us  - that he wasn't interested!

      He was very interested about whatever was under the bed in one of the apartments; he also showed a great deal of interest at a sideboard ~ an English voice asks about pulling it out to give him better access ~ if I remember correctly that was done but the dog was stood down and not returned to it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 08:17:32 PM
      Does anyone know how minutes between entering Apt5a and the dog's first alert?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 12, 2015, 08:21:22 PM
      If Madeleine was lifted by a predator it was done within a very tight time frame ... a very few minutes.  There simply was no time for anyone to hang around with a body and there would have been many more areas of contamination to cause 'alerts'.
      Did Eddie once even cast a glance at a door handle?
      I firmly believe madeleine was alive when she left the apartment.

      With reference to the DCI and his thoughts ... it is my opinion that the investigation latterly came into possession of intelligence which suggested the worst case scenario that Madeleine was dead.  This had to be checked out ... and I believe that is why Tito and Muzzy checked out the mound area.
      I like your line of thought, but I have to raise some questions.

      The mound is not unimportant to Luz, as media reports intimated at the time.  Quite the opposite, it is central, and an integral part of the traffic system, particularly the one way system.  By this, I mean it is not quiet, it is fairly busy.

      Changing tack, here is Kirsty Louise Maryann, childcare worker who participated in the search on 3 / 4 May 07.
      "Questioned, the deponent states that beyond this situation, on another occasion, an event caught her attention. An individual of the male sex, in Praia da Luz, next to a café, whose name she does not know, was playing a guitar until the day of the facts, now under investigation. on the night Maddie disappeared and while she was involved with a group searching, mentioned prior, they encountered a vehicle, whose make and model she does not know, of while colour, commercial, parked on top of a hill, where, she cannot identify. At this point, some of the group elements banged on the window of the vehicle and the back doors and saw the person who habitually played the guitar on the beach. He was covered with blankets, reading a book and drinking a beer, with the help of a flashlight. Questioned, they did were not able to observe in detail the interior of the vehicle. She add that the individual was asked whether he had seen a minor of about four years of age and the same responded, jocularly, that on that night, no one knocked on the doors of his vehicle."

      There are two areas within Luz where people park overnight their camper vans or, in this case, a Ford Escort van.

      One is south of the Paraíso - not the restaurant, but the urbanisation immediately west of the mound.  That area is flat as a pancake, so it can be ruled out.

      The other is on top of the mound, up a hill that Kirsty had no reason to recognise.

      Nor did SY, since they have not visited the crime scene, in any real sense.

      For these reasons, I do not think that SY was working on intelligence.  If I am gracious, I think they were working on nearness.  If I am not, they were working on ignorance.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 08:27:52 PM
      I like your line of thought, but I have to raise some questions.

      The mound is not unimportant to Luz, as media reports intimated at the time.  Quite the opposite, it is central, and an integral part of the traffic system, particularly the one way system.  By this, I mean it is not quiet, it is fairly busy.

      Changing tack, here is Kirsty Louise Maryann, childcare worker who participated in the search on 3 / 4 May 07.
      "Questioned, the deponent states that beyond this situation, on another occasion, an event caught her attention. An individual of the male sex, in Praia da Luz, next to a café, whose name she does not know, was playing a guitar until the day of the facts, now under investigation. on the night Maddie disappeared and while she was involved with a group searching, mentioned prior, they encountered a vehicle, whose make and model she does not know, of while colour, commercial, parked on top of a hill, where, she cannot identify. At this point, some of the group elements banged on the window of the vehicle and the back doors and saw the person who habitually played the guitar on the beach. He was covered with blankets, reading a book and drinking a beer, with the help of a flashlight. Questioned, they did were not able to observe in detail the interior of the vehicle. She add that the individual was asked whether he had seen a minor of about four years of age and the same responded, jocularly, that on that night, no one knocked on the doors of his vehicle."

      There are two areas within Luz where people park overnight their camper vans or, in this case, a Ford Escort van.

      One is south of the Paraíso - not the restaurant, but the urbanisation immediately west of the mound.  That area is flat as a pancake, so it can be ruled out.

      The other is on top of the mound, up a hill that Kirsty had no reason to recognise.

      Nor did SY, since they have not visited the crime scene, in any real sense.

      For these reasons, I do not think that SY was working on intelligence.  If I am gracious, I think they were working on nearness.  If I am not, they were working on ignorance.
      Did the PJ not have any input into these searches?  If not, why not?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 08:34:03 PM
      Does anyone know how minutes between entering Apt5a and the dog's first alert?

      This is interesting:

      Inspection of the apartments.

      Date: July 31st 2007 - 8pm. Report:

      Participants:

      PJ: Tavares A. & Ricardo P. Inspectors
      UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime (UK Forensic Canine P SM Expert),
      Eddie & Keela (English Springers)
      Silvia B. Manager of the Ocean Club complex.

      On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:

      5A:

      From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
      8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
      8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road. [/u]
      From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
      8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.

      5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

      5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

      5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

      4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

      Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):

      9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.

      Date: 01 ao? 2007 - 06h00


      I may be missing something (I frequently do) but from that record, it would seem that Eddie's first alerts were 10 minutes and 8 minutes respectively before he set paw inside the apartment.

      They are fiendishly clever, these dogs ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 08:57:46 PM
      It would be interesting to compare his behaviour on entering 5a with his behaviour on entering one of the other apartments - why are those videos not available?  Were those searches actually video'ed at all?

      How long have you followed this case? And you do not know if the other apartment searches were video'd? Interesting.

      The answer to your questionfrom Pegasus a short while ago on this thread:-
      Behaviour outside each apartment http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8
      5A 13:15
      5B 38:10
      5D 41:39
      5H 46:37
      4G 49:58


      As for your being perplexed about day and night searches, the apartment searches commenced early evening when still light and finished when it was dark, AFAIAW the dogs abilities are not affected by any lack of vitamin D in the atmosphere....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 09:03:23 PM
      How long have you followed this case? And you do not know if the other apartment searches were video'd? Interesting.

      The answer to your questionfrom Pegasus a short while ago on this thread:-
      Behaviour outside each apartment http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8
      5A 13:15
      5B 38:10
      5D 41:39
      5H 46:37
      4G 49:58


      As for your being perplexed about day and night searches, the apartment searches commenced early evening when still light and finished when it was dark, AFAIAW the dogs abilities are not affected by any lack of vitamin D in the atmosphere....
      I thought you'd decided to ignore my shameful, worthless posts?  If I did know that there was video footage ofthe other apartment searches I had forgotten.  Unlike some people I did not do an MA in McCann Studies and only got a C at A-Level, I do apologise.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 09:04:33 PM
      This is interesting:

      Inspection of the apartments.

      Date: July 31st 2007 - 8pm. Report:

      Participants:

      PJ: Tavares A. & Ricardo P. Inspectors
      UK: Mark Harrison, Martin Grime (UK Forensic Canine P SM Expert),
      Eddie & Keela (English Springers)
      Silvia B. Manager of the Ocean Club complex.

      On that date, inspections were conducted in the apartments occupied by members of the McCann family as well as the group who were with them at the time of Madeleine McCann's disappearance. It was only on that date that the apartment, identified as that of the parents, was empty allowing further investigation which was authorised by the respective occupants. Thus, at the appointed time, the search with the dogs began, covering the following apartments:

      5A:

      From 8.30pm to 9.20pm, the dogs go through.
      8.20pm: The cadaver dog, "marks," the couple's wardrobe area in the bedroom.
      8.22pm: The cadaver dog, "marks" an area behind the sofa in the sitting room near the window overlooking the road. [/u]
      From 8.47pm to 9.20pm, the blood detecting dog goes through.
      8.10 (should it be 9.10?) The dog, "marks" an area of floor behind the sofa in the sitting room, near the window overlooking the road.

      5B: 9.24 to 9.27pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

      5D: 9.29 to 9.34pm: The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

      5H : 9.35 to 9.38pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

      4G : 9.42 to 9.45pm : The cadaver dog did not alert on anything.

      Garden belonging to apartment 5A (with access via the balcony and the steps):

      9.49 to 10pm: The cadaver dog "marks" an area of the garden immediately below the window.

      Date: 01 ao? 2007 - 06h00


      I may be missing something (I frequently do) but from that record, it would seem that Eddie's first alerts were 10 minutes and 8 minutes respectively before he set paw inside the apartment.

      They are fiendishly clever, these dogs ....

      It is obviously a typo,  hardly anythng to get excited about, or make anyone think dogs were psychic, but it would help if you only posted information from the PJ files and not blogs...and we have gone over this before, why you would want to keep regurgitating stuff is anyone's guess

       *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 09:05:35 PM
      So what time did the dogs go into Aprtment 5a?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 09:12:25 PM
      Look at it again, Alfred.

      The dogs went through between 8.30 and 9.20

      The first alerts are recorded at 8.20 and 8.22, 10 minutes and 8 minutes respectively before the dogs entered the apartment ....

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 09:12:58 PM
      I thought you'd decided to ignore my shameful, worthless posts?  If I did know that there was video footage ofthe other apartment searches I had forgotten.  Unlike some people I did not do an MA in McCann Studies and only got a C at A-Level, I do apologise.

      I did but on this occasion responded to a normal question so as a helpful human being  ie I decided to be helpful....if that bothers you then I shall refrain in the future, and let you do your own donkey work,  thanks for the thanks as well

       8((()*/

      As for sarcastic remarks about a levels and MAs, it's as simple as being well informed as much as possible before you stick your oar in and arguing about any case...uninformed comments and questions  are ok, the worst offenders are those that pretend they have read ALL the files but make themselves look so silly when they never even quote them or pass comment, you will be glad to hear you're not in that particular tribe



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 09:14:59 PM
      Look at it again, Alfred.

      The dogs went through between 8.30 and 9.20

      The first alerts are recorded at 8.20 and 8.22, 10 minutes and 8 minutes respectively before the dogs entered the apartment ....

      No don't look at it again Alfred as it is not a PJ source and Ferryman knows this too....that is why he didn't give a link
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 09:17:26 PM
      It is obviously a typo,  hardly anythng to get excited about, or make anyone think dogs were psychic, but it would help if you only posted information from the PJ files and not blogs...and we have gone over this before, why you would want to keep regurgitating stuff is anyone's guess

       *&*%£

      I was posting information from the files:

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 09:17:57 PM
      I did but on this occasion responded to a normal question so as a helpful human being  ie I decided to be helpful....if that bothers you then I shall refrain in the future, and let you do your own donkey work,  thanks for the thanks as well

       8((()*/

      As for sarcastic remarks about a levels and MAs, it's as simple as being well informed as much as possible before you stick your oar in and arguing about any case...uninformed comments and questions  are ok, the worst offenders are those that pretend they have read ALL the files but make themselves look so silly when they never even quote them or pass comment, you will be glad to hear you're not in that particular tribe
      Thank you for being helpful.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 09:20:48 PM
      Would it be fair to assume that the dog searches of Apt 5a began at 8pm or not?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 09:22:25 PM
      I was posting information from the files:

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

      No you were posting something that got shoved into the online official files but is not a PJ document...and you KNOW this so I yet again find you extremely disingenuous
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 09:23:50 PM
      No you were posting something that got shoved into the online official files but is not a PJ document...and you KNOW this so I yet again find you extremely disingenuous
      Why would the blogger herself draw attention to the fact that it didn"t make sense then?  Obviously it wasn't her mistake.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 12, 2015, 09:24:14 PM
      Would it be fair to assume that the dog searches of Apt 5a began at 8pm or not?

      The relevant section is the 4th down marked by the dark blue band in this link.

      Make your own judgment:

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 09:24:23 PM
      Thank you for being helpful.
      So much appreciated

      I will be available  to help you a lot with any questions to which you try but can't find an answer to  in a short while.....stuff to do...

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 09:27:07 PM
      Why would the blogger herself draw attention to the fact that it didn"t make sense then?  Obviously it wasn't her mistake.
      No it was the other bloggers mistake once you find the actual PJ document it might help
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 09:27:57 PM
      The relevant section is the 4th down marked by the dark blue band in this link.

      Make your own judgment:

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm

      We all know where it is, fact remains it is NOT A PJ DOCUMENT is it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 09:33:24 PM
      No it was the other bloggers mistake once you find the actual PJ document it might help
      For some reason the source document does not appear together with the blogger's translation.  If you can find it I'd be much obliged once again.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 09:52:18 PM
      For some reason the source document does not appear together with the blogger's translation.  If you can find it I'd be much obliged once again.

                                                                   I am totally lost.

      How on earth are the uninitiated supposed to know what is allegedly a bloggers work when it is presented as part and parcel of the files?  Why is Anna Esse's translation more suspect than all the others?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 10:23:34 PM
      For some reason the source document does not appear together with the blogger's translation.  If you can find it I'd be much obliged once again.

      The source document for the NON PJ document,  is lost in the ether as that blog doesn't exist anymore, the only relevant piece of info here is the PJ document of the apartment searches with times, Here you go (first entry) albeit there is another typo it seems at the start, the essence is all there...it took four minutes from entry into 5a (a question you or someone else asked before) to first cadaver dog alert

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm#2054
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 10:56:50 PM
      The source document for the NON PJ document,  is lost in the ether as that blog doesn't exist anymore, the only relevant piece of info here is the PJ document of the apartment searches with times, Here you go (first entry) albeit there is another typo it seems at the start, the essence is all there...it took four minutes from entry into 5a (a question you or someone else asked before) to first cadaver dog alert

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm#2054
      Thanks, but where on that PJ document does it make that clear?  I can't see it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 10:58:16 PM
                                                                   I am totally lost.

      How on earth are the uninitiated supposed to know what is allegedly a bloggers work when it is presented as part and parcel of the files?  Why is Anna Esse's translation more suspect than all the others?

      it's very touching you are concerned with "uniniated" people who might just stumble on the files and maybe fret about a missing ten minutes

      No one said Anna Ese's translation was suspect or more or less susoect than any others

      the source document is the non existent entity, a wasted half an hour "initiated"by ferryman which was a much ado about nothng of essence, typos are a plenty in both British and Portuguese documents, it doesn't take much brain power to see past them,oh well
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 11:03:56 PM
      Thanks, but where on that PJ document does it make that clear?  I can't see it.

      After the first few paragraphs under IN APARTMENT 5A:-
      At 2020
      (Given the search began at 2016, IE 2020-2016=4)
      Would copy and paste but my tablet is temperamental
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 11:07:38 PM
      doesn't really matter how the sceptics try to spin things...the alerts tell us nothing and have no evidential reliability....it is accepted that there is no proof that maddie is dead
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 11:08:23 PM
      After the first few paragraphs under IN APARTMENT 5A:-
      At 2020
      (Given the search began at 2016, IE 2020-2016=4)
      Would copy and paste but my tablet is temperamental
      OK, but then what is the reference to 20.00hrs at the top of the report for?  What was happening in the 20 mnutes prior to Eddie entering the apartment? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 11:12:56 PM
      OK, but then what is the reference to 20.00hrs at the top of the report for?  What was happening in the 20 mnutes prior to Eddie entering the apartment?

      I really don't know Alfred, perhaps that's the time they all congregated and talked procedure or something...further down its pretty clear specific times are given for entry and alerts...that's all
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 12, 2015, 11:31:14 PM
      I really don't know Alfred, perhaps that's the time they all congregated and talked procedure or something...further down its pretty clear specific times are given for entry and alerts...that's all
      OK, thanks for your help.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 11:39:08 PM
      OK, thanks for your help.

      you're welcome

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 13, 2015, 12:29:31 AM
      it's very touching you are concerned with "uniniated" people who might just stumble on the files and maybe fret about a missing ten minutes

      No one said Anna Ese's translation was suspect or more or less susoect than any others

      the source document is the non existent entity, a wasted half an hour "initiated"by ferryman which was a much ado about nothng of essence, typos are a plenty in both British and Portuguese documents, it doesn't take much brain power to see past them,oh well

      Please try if at all possible to be a bit less aggressive and rude in your responses.  The uninitiated to whom I refer in my post is me.  As far as I can see that particular entry in the files has as much validity as anything else contained therein yet apparently it is not kosher for some.

      In my opinion it most certainly is a perfect example of the unreliability of the internet files and why reliance on them is a mugs game.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 13, 2015, 12:45:10 AM
      OK, thanks for your help.

      Mark Harrison stated that the videos taken by the PJ were date and time stamped.

      The videos posted by Levy on the internet have no date and time stamp.  They are therefore not the videos mentioned by Mark Harrison.

      Between 2:10 and 2:20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lrrMoUr3OA there are glimpses of the viewfinder of another camcorder and the shadow of the cameraman.  In my opinion taking the official evidential video complete with the necessary date and time stamp.

      No wonder Eddie was excited and doing his stuff for the cameras ... he had more of them pointing at him in that confined space than Princess Diana on a bad day.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 13, 2015, 12:51:10 AM
      Please try if at all possible to be a bit less aggressive and rude in your responses.  The uninitiated to whom I refer in my post is me.  As far as I can see that particular entry in the files has as much validity as anything else contained therein yet apparently it is not kosher for some.

      In my opinion it most certainly is a perfect example of the unreliability of the internet files and why reliance on them is a mugs game.

      same advice to you

      NO that entry has NOT the same validity, it has NO PJ file connected to it..if YOU want to connect that SINGLE erroneous entry in the files to all the files and then label all the files as unreliable then your illogical prerogative....what you thnk it contains that is so important anyway to make a fuss about it like a ferryman did is beyond me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 13, 2015, 01:09:21 AM
      same advice to you

      NO that entry has NOT the same validity, it has NO PJ file connected to it..if YOU want to connect that SINGLE erroneous entry in the files to all the files and then label all the files as unreliable then your illogical prerogative....what you thnk it contains that is so important anyway to make a fuss about it like a ferryman did is beyond me.

      If there are false entries contained therein they are devalued in their entirety and thus worthless.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 09:39:13 AM
      Mark Harrison stated that the videos taken by the PJ were date and time stamped.

      The videos posted by Levy on the internet have no date and time stamp.  They are therefore not the videos mentioned by Mark Harrison.

      Between 2:10 and 2:20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lrrMoUr3OA there are glimpses of the viewfinder of another camcorder and the shadow of the cameraman.  In my opinion taking the official evidential video complete with the necessary date and time stamp.

      No wonder Eddie was excited and doing his stuff for the cameras ... he had more of them pointing at him in that confined space than Princess Diana on a bad day.
      Eddie does seem to have more vim and vigour to him in 5a but then am I right in thinking it was the first (and longest) search.  Perhaps his appetite for sniffing out corpses had waned slightly as the night wore on...?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 09:48:14 AM
      Eddie does seem to have more vim and vigour to him in 5a but then am I right in thinking it was the first (and longest) search.  Perhaps his appetite for sniffing out corpses had waned slightly as the night wore on...?

      There is an explanation for his demeanor in 5A;

      Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 09:54:08 AM
      There is an explanation for his demeanor in 5A;

      Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      so what do the alerts tell us...nothing
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 10:03:10 AM
      There is an explanation for his demeanor in 5A;

      Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      just raed this link and grime says...

      It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to
       'a cadaver scent'  contaminant. No evidential or intelligence reliability can be made from this
       alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating evidence.


      so here grime uses the word "possible" not suggestive
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 10:16:26 AM
      so what do the alerts tell us...nothing

      The only way the dogs would have told us nothing was if they didn't alert. They did alert, which tells us there could have been a dead body in 5A.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 10:18:37 AM
      There is an explanation for his demeanor in 5A;

      Ok what was done was we deployed the victim recovery dog into the apartment and by experience and the training of the dog what I first noticed is that as soon as I came in that the dog was very excited and as a handler I can pick up his body language etc and it would appear to me that as soon as he has come into the house he's picked up a scent that he recognises and he has then gone through the apartment trying to source where that scent source has come from and as he has worked through the house the only two places where he picks up enough scent to give me the bark alert are in this bedroom, in this corner where he was barking.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm
      Yes, that is one explanation, however as an ex-dog owner myself I too am famiiar with the over-excited animal that is let off the leash on the first walk of the day.  The over-exuberance does eventually subside.  Please note, I'm not saying Eddie was not alerting to cadaver odour, or trying to diss him in any way, just thinking out of the box.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 10:30:44 AM
      The only way the dogs would have told us nothing was if they didn't alert. They did alert, which tells us there could have been a dead body in 5A.

      but we know that without the dogs...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carlymichelle on September 13, 2015, 10:42:03 AM
      The only way the dogs would have told us nothing was if they didn't alert. They did alert, which tells us there could have been a dead body in 5A.

      why do  supporters fear the dogs so much??
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 10:43:25 AM
      why do  supporters fear the dogs so much??

      It never does to mistake disdain for the handler for any emotion whatever about the dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 10:50:30 AM
      There is nothing whatsoever for anyone (even the McCanns) to fear from the dogs.  Their alerts were (and remain) meaningless without corroborating evidence.  As it is extraordinarily unlikely that corroborating evidence to support these alerts will be found now, it's really time for everyone to move on, dog lovers and sceptics alike. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2015, 11:20:23 AM
      There is nothing whatsoever for anyone (even the McCanns) to fear from the dogs.  Their alerts were (and remain) meaningless without corroborating evidence.  As it is extraordinarily unlikely that corroborating evidence to support these alerts will be found now, it's really time for everyone to move on, dog lovers and sceptics alike.

      Wot and dump a thread that has pushing 50 posts a day? Anyway how long do you think it would be before Mr Grime, Sr Amaral and the dogs are worked into a thread about, say, which travel agent the party used?
      Not forgetting dissing Grime and doggy talk diverts from talking about what the FSS said.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 13, 2015, 11:42:12 AM
      There is nothing whatsoever for anyone (even the McCanns) to fear from the dogs.  Their alerts were (and remain) meaningless without corroborating evidence.  As it is extraordinarily unlikely that corroborating evidence to support these alerts will be found now, it's really time for everyone to move on, dog lovers and sceptics alike.

      Or circumstantial 'evidence', which can bring about a feasible prosecution.

      We can't get away from the fact that the parents are suspected by many to have been complacent at least, or facilitated their daughters fate by their behaviour.  Many people also accept that the dogs did not bark at MADDIES CADAVER ODOUR in the flat- but suspect the dogs are reliable and have not ruled out that it May have been her cadaver odour .
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 11:43:35 AM
      but we know that without the dogs...

      How?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 12:03:57 PM
      How?

      we know maddie may have died in the apartment..its a possibility....the alerts tell us nothing more
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 12:10:32 PM
      Wot and dump a thread that has pushing 50 posts a day? Anyway how long do you think it would be before Mr Grime, Sr Amaral and the dogs are worked into a thread about, say, which travel agent the party used?
      Not forgetting dissing Grime and doggy talk diverts from talking about what the FSS said.

      the reason the thread lasts so long is the sceptics simply don't understand the significance of the alerts...as amaral didn't
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2015, 12:58:13 PM
      the reason the thread lasts so long is the sceptics simply don't understand the significance of the alerts...as amaral didn't

      According to whom?
      An expert on the utilisation of K9s in the field or a few internet Googlers?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 13, 2015, 01:04:32 PM
      According to whom?
      An expert on the utilisation of K9s in the field or a few internet Googlers?

      Good Afternoon Alice,

      ....Well, Gerry asked Sandra as if she would know something about the dogs,( Gerry thought the dogs could talk- and that Sandra could converse with them) so this opens up a whole new pool of experts...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 01:20:34 PM
      According to whom?
      An expert on the utilisation of K9s in the field or a few internet Googlers?

      according to me...
      did you see the posts where three posters claimed Grime had stated that the dogs alerted to cadaver odour...they are still there.....that's absolute proof they do not understand the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 01:36:27 PM
      According to whom?
      An expert on the utilisation of K9s in the field or a few internet Googlers?

      Would you not say that by waiting until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with translated NPIA instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles, Harrison was tacitly calling into question the expertise of Grime?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 01:46:10 PM
      why do  supporters fear the dogs so much??

      another sceptic who doesn't understand the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2015, 01:48:16 PM
      According to whom?
      An expert on the utilisation of K9s in the field or a few internet Googlers?

      They have forgotten it seems Alice, they we can see through them, and their motives for posting on here in defense of the mccanns.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 13, 2015, 01:55:14 PM
      They have forgotten it seems Alice, they we can see through them, and their motives for posting on here in defense of the mccanns.

      Please try to remember that we all have right to do that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2015, 01:59:04 PM
      Please try to remember that we all have right to do that.

      I do know that.

      Likewise I remember what the mccanns admitted at the hacking inquiry.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 02:04:13 PM
      They have forgotten it seems Alice, they we can see through them, and their motives for posting on here in defense of the mccanns.

      the fact that you think you understand my motive for posting on here shows how deluded you are
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 02:06:09 PM
      the fact that you think you understand my motive for posting on here shows how deluded you are

      Most importantly, by making the comments (and employing the tactics!) he does, Stephen betrays his own motives ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2015, 02:07:45 PM
      Most importantly, by making the comments (and employing the tactics!) he does, Stephen betrays his own motives ....

      Now that's another classic coming from you. *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 13, 2015, 02:29:49 PM
      Now that's another classic coming from you. *&*%£

      Indeed!  Some posts are quite clearly meant to goad - never removed but mine are always a good target. I get so bored with it.... I'm Off.

      T/C     DLTBGYD! ?>)()< 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 02:34:05 PM
      Indeed!  Some posts are quite clearly meant to goad - never removed but mine are always a good target. I get so bored with it.... I'm Off.

      T/C     DLTBGYD! ?>)()< 8**8:/:
      Who do you perceive as the b........s on here then?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 02:48:28 PM
      OK, but then what is the reference to 20.00hrs at the top of the report for?  What was happening in the 20 mnutes prior to Eddie entering the apartment?
      20:00 would be the scheduled time when the UK/PJ team's vehicles arrive and park opposite block 5.
      Your 20 minutes is simply the time for the UK and PJ elements of the team to congregate, briefly go over the plan of action, meet with the holder of keys, and unlock the first apartment.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 02:50:57 PM
      20:00 would be the scheduled time when the UK/PJ team's vehicles arrive and park opposite block 5.
      Your 20 minutes is simply the time for the UK and PJ elements of the team to congregate, briefly go over the plan of action, meet with the holder of keys, and unlock the first apartment.
      Really?  OK, if you say so. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 02:51:41 PM
      They have forgotten it seems Alice, they we can see through them, and their motives for posting on here in defense of the mccanns.

      this is a good example of a post meant to goad
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 02:54:10 PM
      according to me...
      did you see the posts where three posters claimed Grime had stated that the dogs alerted to cadaver odour...they are still there.....that's absolute proof they do not understand the alerts

      I would argue that it's those who want us to believe that these trained experienced dogs alert to saliva, garden fertilizer and pig's blood who don't understand the alerts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 02:55:37 PM
      Really?  OK, if you say so.
      I watched the video.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 03:00:39 PM
      I would argue that it's those who want us to believe that these trained experienced dogs alert to saliva, garden fertilizer and pig's blood who don't understand the alerts.

      and I would argue that as you claimed Grime said eddie alerted to cadaver odour you do not understand the alerts
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2015, 03:24:16 PM
      Well at least we have established that.
      No one can post a reference where an acknowledged expert on K9 operations has said "The sceptics on UKJF do not understands the alerts of Eddie and Keela".
      So we are back to gash hands' opinions, which is fair enough as long as we know that is what we are dealing with.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 03:24:45 PM
      and I would argue that as you claimed Grime said eddie alerted to cadaver odour you do not understand the alerts
      I agree that even highly experienced UK police officers are capable of completely misinterpreting an EVRD alert.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 03:25:11 PM
      I watched the video.
      Is there a 20 minute unedited section showing the activities you describe?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2015, 03:27:21 PM
      Would you not say that by waiting until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with translated NPIA instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles, Harrison was tacitly calling into question the expertise of Grime?

      I would say this is nothing to do with whether or not sceptics understand the alerts which was the subject of my post.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 03:38:52 PM
      Is there a 20 minute unedited section showing the activities you describe?
      No. What would be the the point of filming the vehicles arriving and the UK/PJ elements meeting and key holder arriving and the door being unlocked? Those minutes are irrelevant.

      You could claim all the dog videos are false, because they show no-one using the toilet, which is impossible with that many UK and PJ in the team, surely one of them must have. Again - it was not filmed, because it is irrelevant.

      You could claim that all the dog intelligence is meaningless, because in the video Eddie and his handler sometimes appear to teleport instantly from one apartment to the next. Etc Etc

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 03:39:52 PM
      I would say this is nothing to do with whether or not sceptics understand the alerts which was the subject of my post.

      we have established that amaral misunderstood the alerts...without any expert opinion needed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 03:51:57 PM
      we have established that amaral misunderstood the alerts...without any expert opinion needed
      Are you perchance a member of one of the world's royal families?
      The clue is your peculiar spelling of the first person singular pronoun.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 03:52:28 PM
      we have established that amaral misunderstood the alerts...without any expert opinion needed

      By 'we' I assume you mean yourself and like minded posters. I for one am not in agreement with you on most points.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 03:58:16 PM
      and I would argue that as you claimed Grime said eddie alerted to cadaver odour you do not understand the alerts

      My reply to that is that you didn't understand what Grime said.  8(>((
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 04:17:20 PM
      My reply to that is that you didn't understand what Grime said.  8(>((

      you gave your opinion as to what Grime said...Grime did not say Eddie alerted to cadaver odour...fact...you claimed he did..
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 04:34:37 PM
      if you want to pretend you cannot follow the perfect logic I have posted on this matter so be it. It's a bit tiresome when sceptics such as yourself continually criticise posts such as mine but ignore some absolute BS posted by your fellow sceptics...it lowers the tone
      well said!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 04:36:13 PM
      No. What would be the the point of filming the vehicles arriving and the UK/PJ elements meeting and key holder arriving and the door being unlocked? Those minutes are irrelevant.

      You could claim all the dog videos are false, because they show no-one using the toilet, which is impossible with that many UK and PJ in the team, surely one of them must have. Again - it was not filmed, because it is irrelevant.

      You could claim that all the dog intelligence is meaningless, because in the video Eddie and his handler sometimes appear to teleport instantly from one apartment to the next. Etc Etc
      I have not claimed anything of the sort, you claimed that you knew what had happened in the first 20 minutes because you had watched the video, however if the first 20 minutes were not videoed then your explanation is flawed, is it not?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 04:37:30 PM
      By 'we' I assume you mean yourself and like minded posters. I for one am not in agreement with you on most points.
      Amaral claims in his book that the dog alerts prove that Madeleine's body had lain in Apartment 5a.  Is he correct?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 04:39:07 PM
      Did Amaral understand the dog alerts when he wrote:

      Quote
      From then on, we are sure that, at a given moment, there was a body in apartment 5A. We now have to interview firemen, medical services personnel, previous tenants and employees of the Ocean Club to make sure that no death has taken place in this accommodation, which they confirm. So, we can conclude that the odour discovered is certainly that of Madeleine Beth McCann. (TOTL)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2015, 04:39:57 PM
      well said!
      Perhaps you would like to post a link where someone more than a mere gash hand on the topic has stated "The sceptics do not understand the dog alerts".
      Otherwise we a dealing with semantics.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 04:40:55 PM
      I would say this is nothing to do with whether or not sceptics understand the alerts which was the subject of my post.

      You would place sceptics' understanding of alerts above the understanding of Harrison?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 04:43:50 PM
      Perhaps you would like to post a link where someone more than a mere gash hand on the topic has stated "The sceptics do not understand the dog alerts".
      Otherwise we a dealing with semantics.

      we are dealing with facts...with what Grime actually states...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 04:48:21 PM
      Perhaps you would like to post a link where someone more than a mere gash hand on the topic has stated "The sceptics do not understand the dog alerts".
      Otherwise we a dealing with semantics.

      Harrison understood the dog alerts and reached no firm conclusion about whether Madeleine was alive or dead.

      He also expressed (tacit) criticism of Grime.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 04:51:28 PM
      lets keep it simple...there is no evidence that a cadaver was ever in 5a..
      if posters wish to speculate that there was they are free to do so...but there is nothing to support that speculation..

      who says so ...Grime says so
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2015, 04:54:53 PM
      we are dealing with facts...with what Grime actually states...

      removed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 05:07:40 PM
      Harrison understood the dog alerts and reached no firm conclusion about whether Madeleine was alive or dead.

      He also expressed (tacit) criticism of Grime.
      It's remarkable how "critisism" can conjured up out of thin air and semantics.
      Someone not mentioning something, that is very obvious, is not critisism
      For example MH flew over PDL in a helicopter in July 2007 and his report of that flight mysteriously fails to even mention the pilot. Is that (tacit) critisism of the pilot? .
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 05:18:38 PM
      It's remarkable how "critisism" can conjured up out of thin air and semantics.
      Someone not mentioning something, that is very obvious, is not critisism
      For example MH flew over PDL in a helicopter in July 2007 and his report of that flight mysteriously fails to even mention the pilot. Is that (tacit) critisism of the pilot? No.

      No.

      Tacit criticism (of Grime) is Harrison referring to the participation of Grime and his dogs in inspections he (Harrison!) recommended: holiday apartments, the Murats' villa and areas in and around PdL; but excluding reference to Grime and his dogs in inspections he (Harrison) had nothing to do with; the places or things Madeleine never went near:

      The timeline of these searches was as follows:
       
      On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
       
      On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
       
      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
       
      On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
       
      On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
       
      On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
       
      On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
       
      On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2015, 05:30:48 PM
      A brief reminder.

      The dogs made alerts.

      That is what they were trained to do.

      Dogs have no agenda, they respond to stimuli, as these did

      The forensic results indicated human remains but no more than that.

      Since the 3 rd May 2007, not one trace of Madeleine, despite all the publicity surrounding the case.

      Those who want to believe she will return alive and unharmed are welcome to their fantasies.

      P.S.  Not one piece of evidence, let alone forensics to indicate abduction. The investigation remains at ground zero. So no change on that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 05:34:14 PM
      @Ferryman MH's contract stated that he was to provide enduring advice as the investigation progressed.
      It is IMO obvious he was involved in the decision on 1st/2nd Aug 2007 to get a warrant for the villa.
      Are you claiming that he had nothing to do with the villa EVRD search?
      Strange, I imagined I saw him in that video.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 05:34:45 PM
      A brief reminder.

      The dogs made alerts.

      That is what they were trained to do.

      Dogs have no agenda, they respond to stimuli, as these did

      The forensic results indicated human remains but no more than that.

      Since the 3 rd May 2007, not one trace of Madeleine, despite all the publicity surrounding the case.

      Those who want to believe she will return alive and unharmed are welcome to their fantasies.

      thanks for proving my point
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 05:35:41 PM
      @Ferryman MH's contract stated that he was to provide enduring advice as the investigation progressed.
      It is IMO obvious he was involved in the decision on 1st/2nd Aug 2007 to get a warrant for the villa.
      Are you claiming that he had nothing to do with the villa EVRD search?
      Strange, I imagined I saw him in that video.

      Can you supply the reference, please?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 05:39:46 PM
      Can you supply the reference, please?
      Reference for MH's remit, or the villa warrant approved on 2nd Aug 2007, or for the villa video?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 05:49:15 PM
      Perhaps you would like to post a link where someone more than a mere gash hand on the topic has stated "The sceptics do not understand the dog alerts".
      Otherwise we a dealing with semantics.
      What is a gash hand?  It is not a term I am familiar with, sorry.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2015, 06:15:03 PM
      What is a gash hand?  It is not a term I am familiar with, sorry.

      http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gash-hand
      gash hand
      Definition of gash hand in English:
      noun
      A person not assigned a particular job; a general dogsbody.
      Origin
      1940s; earliest use found in The British Medical Journal.

      In my profession generally further refined to mean someone without the necessary specialist knowledge of or training in the subject matter under discussion.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 06:16:45 PM
      Reference for MH's remit, or the villa warrant approved on 2nd Aug 2007, or for the villa video?

      From Harrison's report, this is where he makes reference to the places Madeleine neither lived in nor went near:

      In complying with these terms [Harrison's terms of reference] I undertook a series of briefings and site visits. These were with GNR and PJ personnel who had been involved in the previous searches conducted the week following Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in Praia da Luz.
       
      The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07.

      It recommended considering re searching:
       
      - All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
      - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
      - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
      - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
      - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.
       
      These recommendations were based on the fact that these areas had not been previously searched with the specific intent to locate Madeleine McCann’s concealed and deceased body and that the areas recommended afforded likely and obvious places to consider for concealment in such an investigation.


      Do you get the impression Harrison words that as if they are his recommendations?

      I don't.

      And notice a conspicuous absence: no reference to the gym.

      How did that come about?

      The only explanation I am aware of is the one in Amaral's book.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 13, 2015, 06:27:15 PM
      What is a gash hand?  It is not a term I am familiar with, sorry.

      Gash Hand is a Naval term for someone surplus to requirements.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 06:30:21 PM
      Gash Hand is a Naval term for someone surplus to requirements.
      It seems that Eddie is surplus to the requirements of some theories
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2015, 06:30:59 PM
      You would place sceptics' understanding of alerts above the understanding of Harrison?

      As Harrison is or was a visiting professor in his subject I doubt anyone on here has a superior knowledge and understanding of his particular field.

      Mr (professor?) Harrison appears to have said many things but I believe these to be relevant.

      “The use of a specialist EVRD and CSI dog could potentially indicate on whether Madeleine’s blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but has been removed”. He later in the same document qualifies this to say it is “intelligence rather than evidence”. So we have a sort of dichotomy: intelligence v evidence.

      He also says:
      “This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive”.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 06:33:45 PM
      It seems that Eddie is surplus to the requirements of some theories

      No fault of the dog, but Eddie contributed nothing to the sum of knowledge about what happened (or didn't happen!) to Madeleine.

      Perhaps not strictly true.

      Eddie certainly confirmed that Madeleine went nowhere near the Renault Scenic.

      But after that, you struggle ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 13, 2015, 06:34:28 PM
      http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gash-hand
      gash hand
      Definition of gash hand in English:
      noun
      A person not assigned a particular job; a general dogsbody.
      Origin
      1940s; earliest use found in The British Medical Journal.

      In my profession generally further refined to mean someone without the necessary specialist knowledge of or training in the subject matter under discussion.
      Well you learn something new every day.  So, what is it you want me to post a link to anyway, and why?  I was simply agreeing with Davel's post, I need supply nothing apart from proof of my agreement, which you already have.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 06:35:59 PM
      As Harrison is or was a visiting professor in his subject I doubt anyone on here has a superior knowledge and understanding of his particular field.

      Mr (professor?) Harrison appears to have said many things but I believe these to be relevant.

      “The use of a specialist EVRD and CSI dog could potentially indicate on whether Madeleine’s blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but has been removed”. He later in the same document qualifies this to say it is “intelligence rather than evidence”. So we have a sort of dichotomy: intelligence v evidence.

      He also says:
      “This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive”.

      you are being economical with the truth...Harrison goes on to say that the alerts have no evidential value.....so there is no dichotomy...it seems you do not understand the alerts either...what do you think the alerts tell us
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 06:41:09 PM
      As Harrison is or was a visiting professor in his subject I doubt anyone on here has a superior knowledge and understanding of his particular field.

      Mr (professor?) Harrison appears to have said many things but I believe these to be relevant.

      “The use of a specialist EVRD and CSI dog could potentially indicate on whether Madeleine’s blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but has been removed”. He later in the same document qualifies this to say it is “intelligence rather than evidence”. So we have a sort of dichotomy: intelligence v evidence.

      He also says:
      “This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive”.

      Harrison was a professor on earth and ocean sciences...nothing to do with dogs...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 06:47:33 PM
      As Harrison is or was a visiting professor in his subject I doubt anyone on here has a superior knowledge and understanding of his particular field.

      Mr (professor?) Harrison appears to have said many things but I believe these to be relevant.

      “The use of a specialist EVRD and CSI dog could potentially indicate on whether Madeleine’s blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but has been removed”. He later in the same document qualifies this to say it is “intelligence rather than evidence”. So we have a sort of dichotomy: intelligence v evidence.

      He also says:
      “This report has highlighted the extensive and professional efforts made by the Portuguese authorities regarding the search to locate Madeleine McCann alive”.

      The part I underline is perplexing, I do agree.

      I can't think Harrison didn't know that we don't  send (and never have sent) dogs to America to be trained on human remains.

      There are at least two (separate) FOI answers that confirm Eddie was no exception to the general rule.

      It is clear from Harrison's reports that he simply quit trying to sustain an untruth he realised was unsustainable.

      On your other point, yes, Harrison seems to have been (genuinely) impressed with the efforts of the GNR dog-handlers to try to find Madeleine, and I am very happy to respect Harrison's professional judgement on that one.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 13, 2015, 07:05:49 PM
      The part I underline is perplexing, I do agree.

      I can't think Harrison didn't know that we don't  send (and never have sent) dogs to America to be trained on human remains.

      There are at least two (separate) FOI answers that confirm Eddie was no exception to the general rule.

      It is clear from Harrison's reports that he simply quit trying to sustain an untruth he realised was unsustainable.

      On your other point, yes, Harrison seems to have been (genuinely) impressed with the efforts of the GNR dog-handlers to try to find Madeleine, and I am very happy to respect Harrison's professional judgement on that one.

      To what personal advantage?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 07:14:19 PM
      To what personal advantage?

      No idea.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 07:23:59 PM
      No.

      Tacit criticism (of Grime) is Harrison referring to the participation of Grime and his dogs in inspections he (Harrison!) recommended: holiday apartments, the Murats' villa and areas in and around PdL; but excluding reference to Grime and his dogs in inspections he (Harrison) had nothing to do with; the places or things Madeleine never went near:

      The timeline of these searches was as follows:
       
      On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
       
      On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
       
      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
       
      On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
       
      On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
       
      On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
       
      On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
       
      On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.
       


      I can only find one mention of Grime by Harrison, when he refers in his rog interview to a meeting with various people including Grime. I can't find any other mention of Grime by name.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 07:30:31 PM
      I can only find one mention of Grime by Harrison, when he refers in his rog interview to a meeting with various people including Grime. I can't find any other mention of Grime by name.

      Perhaps you need to re-read my post ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2015, 07:54:15 PM
       Now who said this I wonder ?


      'The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.'


       &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 13, 2015, 07:57:06 PM
      A brief reminder.

      The dogs made alerts.

      That is what they were trained to do.

      Dogs have no agenda, they respond to stimuli, as these did

      The forensic results indicated human remains but no more than that.

      Since the 3 rd May 2007, not one trace of Madeleine, despite all the publicity surrounding the case.

      Those who want to believe she will return alive and unharmed are welcome to their fantasies.

      P.S.  Not one piece of evidence, let alone forensics to indicate abduction. The investigation remains at ground zero. So no change on that.

      Human remains, Stephen?

      Cite please
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 07:57:34 PM
      Now who said this I wonder ?


      'The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.'


       &%+((£

      Martin Grime.

      Clearly not referring to Eddie's shall I/Shan't I uncertainty with cuddle-cat.

      Or the clothing he could find no trace of a scent of in the villa, but could, apparently, detect in the gym
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 13, 2015, 08:08:31 PM
      The part I underline is perplexing, I do agree.

      I can't think Harrison didn't know that we don't  send (and never have sent) dogs to America to be trained on human remains.

      There are at least two (separate) FOI answers that confirm Eddie was no exception to the general rule.

      It is clear from Harrison's reports that he simply quit trying to sustain an untruth he realised was unsustainable.

      On your other point, yes, Harrison seems to have been (genuinely) impressed with the efforts of the GNR dog-handlers to try to find Madeleine, and I am very happy to respect Harrison's professional judgement on that one.

      An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

      He (Eddie) has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

      http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.com/2009/06/chapter-16.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 08:10:07 PM
      From Harrison's report, this is where he makes reference to the places Madeleine neither lived in nor went near:

      In complying with these terms [Harrison's terms of reference] I undertook a series of briefings and site visits. These were with GNR and PJ personnel who had been involved in the previous searches conducted the week following Madeleine McCann’s disappearance in Praia da Luz.
       
      The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07.

      It recommended considering re searching:
       
      - All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
      - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
      - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
      - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
      - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.
       
      These recommendations were based on the fact that these areas had not been previously searched with the specific intent to locate Madeleine McCann’s concealed and deceased body and that the areas recommended afforded likely and obvious places to consider for concealment in such an investigation.


      Do you get the impression Harrison words that as if they are his recommendations?

      I don't.

      And notice a conspicuous absence: no reference to the gym.

      How did that come about?

      The only explanation I am aware of is the one in Amaral's book.

      Are you saying that he didn't write and submit the Report 'Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document'?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 08:13:20 PM
      Now who said this I wonder ?


      'The dogs do not get confused. They transmit a behavioural response inspired by the recognition of the odour for which they were trained.'


       &%+((£

      it seems they do sometimes but not always...often not alerting to things they later alert to
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 08:16:39 PM
      An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

      He (Eddie) has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

      http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.com/2009/06/chapter-16.html

      SYP confirmed in an FOI answer that Eddie's training was in conformance with standard ACPO guidelines, then it gave a link to the ACPO dog training manual which says nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human remains.

      And they confirmed in a separate answer (I have) that no report confirming this apparent training in America was received by SYP.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 08:21:12 PM
      An EVRD dog received additional training on human cadavers which were buried on land and submerged underwater. This took place in America and facilitated by the FBI at the University of Tennessee.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm

      He (Eddie) has additionally trained exclusively using human remains in the U.S.A. in association with the F.B.I. The enhanced training of the dog has also involved the use of collection of 'cadaver scent' odor from human corpses using remote technical equipment which does not contact the subject.

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

      The dogs' CV is impressive. Besides collaborating in hundreds of investigations, they passed the practical tests brilliantly at the FBI's "Body Farm," the only place in the world where human cadavers are used to simulate homicide scenarios and concealment of bodies.

      http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.com/2009/06/chapter-16.html

      Why are you quoting from Amaral's book?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 08:23:35 PM
      Are you saying that he didn't write and submit the Report 'Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document'?

      Harrison is.

      It recommended .... (Harrison's words)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 13, 2015, 08:29:29 PM
      Martin Grime.

      Clearly not referring to Eddie's shall I/Shan't I uncertainty with cuddle-cat.

      Or the clothing he could find no trace of a scent of in the villa, but could, apparently, detect in the gym

      Have you seen the unedited videos ?

      The dogs are trained to react and that is what they did.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 08:38:53 PM
      SYP confirmed in an FOI answer that Eddie's training was in conformance with standard ACPO guidelines, then it gave a link to the ACPO dog training manual which says nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human remains.

      And they confirmed in a separate answer (I have) that no report confirming this apparent training in America was received by SYP.

      No report was received by SYP. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it means no report was received.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 08:40:36 PM
      No report was received by SYP. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it means no report was received.

      The ACPO dog training manual is no longer on line because ACPO no longer exists.

      But it said nothing about sending dogs to America to be trained on human remains.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 13, 2015, 08:42:52 PM
      Have you seen the unedited videos ?

      The dogs are trained to react and that is what they did.

      according to the PJ they didnt
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 08:50:13 PM
      Here is how Harrison worded his recommendations:

      Re Visiting Previously Searched Areas.

      In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

      Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

      This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

      McCann's Apartment.

      The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
      opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
      Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.
      Murat's House and Garden.

      The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
      A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
      Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
      Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
      This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.
      An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


      Page 2228 :

      Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.

      These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.

      Murat's Vehicles.

      All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
      examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.

      Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.

      This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast.
      This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
      Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.

      An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.

      Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.

      The beach and shoreline are bounded by high cliffs and shallow waters. The beach has fine granular sand and provides easy digging. However the beach is extensively used by tourists and locals and af?rds minimal areas of cover from view for concealment. It may be considered appropriate to use the VRD dog team supported by geophysical GPR to sweep the beach. This would be


      Page 2229 :

      a considerable time and cost undertaking and should be weighed in the absence of specific intelligence.

      Search Duration.

      If all the described assets were deployed it would be likely all assets would complete their searches within one week.




      You are left in no doubt that these are Harrison's recommendations ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 13, 2015, 08:50:57 PM
      No report was received by SYP. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it means no report was received.

      Bit like claiming to have a science degree but not having the certificate to back it up.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 13, 2015, 09:20:09 PM
      Have you seen the unedited videos ?

      The dogs are trained to react and that is what they did.

      Which unedited videos are those?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 09:22:29 PM
      Harrison is.

      It recommended .... (Harrison's words)

      You are wrong;

      The terms of assistance we agreed to provide were directed by the PJ Regional Director, Guilhermino ENCARNACO after consultation with DI Neil HOLDEN of the Leicestershire Police and myself, the details of which are on page two of the document I authored, titled “Decision Support Document in the Search for Madeleine McCann” dated 23.07.2007 and presented as evidence MH4.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 09:24:52 PM
      You are wrong;

      The terms of assistance we agreed to provide were directed by the PJ Regional Director, Guilhermino ENCARNACO after consultation with DI Neil HOLDEN of the Leicestershire Police and myself, the details of which are on page two of the document I authored, titled “Decision Support Document in the Search for Madeleine McCann” dated 23.07.2007 and presented as evidence MH4.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm

      Semantics.

      Harrison submitted a report containing other people's ideas and recommendations (as well as his own)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 09:33:10 PM
      Semantics.

      Harrison submitted a report containing other people's ideas and recommendations (as well as his own)

      Cite?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 09:35:52 PM
      Cite?

      Cite already given.

      Read upstream of this thread ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 09:47:26 PM
      Bit like claiming to have a science degree but not having the certificate to back it up.

      Thank you Misty.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 09:54:37 PM
      Cite already given.

      Read upstream of this thread ....

      No, sorry, i see nothing stating that Harrison's report contained other people's ideas. Who were these other people?Anyway, you seemed to be saying he didn't write it. He did.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 09:57:00 PM
      , sorry,

      Apology richly deserved and accepted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 13, 2015, 10:06:48 PM
      Bit like claiming to have a science degree but not having the certificate to back it up.
      Oh , do we have another a Grime libeller and believer in Ferrymans twisted personal interpretations of info as facts? Steady on! It will get you nowhere fast. Why don't you write to the FBI? ASk them if Grime is lying in his CV? You will be sent away with a flea in your ear.
      Such dirty tactics to discredit a handler who we are continuously told found "nothing" of any value

       @)(++(*

      Quite comical really. Zzzz


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 10:08:35 PM
      Apology richly deserved and accepted.

      In your dreams! You suggested that Harrison didn't write the report titled 'Decision support document in the search for Madeleine McCann'. I provided a reference where he said he wrote it. You then accepted he wrote it but stated it contained other people's ideas as well as his. You haven't provided anything which demonstrates the truth of that statement.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 10:11:20 PM
      In your dreams! You suggested that Harrison didn't write the report titled 'Decision support document in the search for Madeleine McCann'. I provided a reference where he said he wrote it. You then accepted he wrote it but stated it contained other people's ideas as well as his. You haven't provided anything which demonstrates the truth of that statement.

      You need to read my subsequent post.

      I fell into the trap of your strawman (non)'argument', then corrected.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 10:18:13 PM
      You need to read my subsequent post.

      I fell into the trap of your strawman (non)'argument', then corrected.

      I have no idea what you're talking about. Please, do us both a favour and provide back-up for your statement that harrison's report contained other people's ideas. Otherwise I can only conclude that you are waffling.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 10:22:26 PM
      No fault of the dog, but Eddie contributed nothing to the sum of knowledge about what happened (or didn't happen!) to Madeleine.

      Perhaps not strictly true.

      Eddie certainly confirmed that Madeleine went nowhere near the Renault Scenic.

      But after that, you struggle ....
      I am most interested to learn how Eddie confirmed that.
      Surely if his alerts are as meaningless as you say, nothing can be deduced from them?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 10:22:44 PM
      I have no idea what you're talking about. Please, do us both a favour and provide back-up for your statement that harrison's report contained other people's ideas. Otherwise I can only conclude that you are waffling.

      Read upstream of the thread.  It's all there.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 10:23:52 PM
      I am most interested to learn how Eddie confirmed that.
      Surely if his alerts are as meaningless as you say, nothing can be deduced from them?

      Eddie alerted to spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key, but didn't alert to the boot.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 10:31:09 PM
      Eddie alerted to spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key, but didn't alert to the boot.
      Eddie was never put in the boot.
      He alerted to air coming out of the drain hole in the bottom of the driver's door.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 10:33:23 PM
      Eddie was never put in the boot.
      He alerted to air coming out of the drain hole in the bottom of the driver's door.

      He alerted to spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key (twice)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 10:44:43 PM
      He alerted to spots of Gerry's blood on the ignition key (twice)
      Before that, he alerted to air coming out of the interior of the car.
      His nose was exactly at the driver door drain hole.
      The air he was sniffing was IMO a well-mixed combination of air from every part of the car interior.
      Including for example the area in the boot floor where the 3rd row of seats goes when they are down, but which when the 3rd row of seats is up provides an extra luggage space under a boot floor panel.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 10:49:04 PM
      Before that, he alerted to air coming out of the interior of the car.
      His nose was exactly at the driver door drain hole.
      The air he was sniffing was IMO a well-mixed combination of air from every part of the car interior.
      Including for example the area in the boot floor where the 3rd row of seats goes when they are down, but which when the 3rd row of seats is up provides an extra luggage space under a boot floor panel.

      Where is any of that confirmed in the files?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 13, 2015, 10:49:54 PM
      Before that, he alerted to air coming out of the interior of the car.
      His nose was exactly at the driver door drain hole.
      The air he was sniffing was IMO a well-mixed combination of air from every part of the car interior.
      Including for example the area in the boot floor where the 3rd row of seats goes when they are down, but which when the 3rd row of seats is up provides an extra luggage space under a boot floor panel.


      How long had the scent been accumulating in the car, bearing in mind the unnamed witness Amaral introduced who had seen the Scenic boot open every night?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 11:01:39 PM

      How long had the scent been accumulating in the car, bearing in mind the unnamed witness Amaral introduced who had seen the Scenic boot open every night?
      I think accumulating is the wrong word. Assuming the molecules Eddie alerted to came from a bag of grass cuttings (there was an article about grass recently), that bag would only have been in the car for about five minutes, so the mown grass smell would only accumulate for about five minutes, after that I think it would over weeks gradually reduce.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 11:02:39 PM
      Read upstream of the thread.  It's all there.

      I have and it isn't.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 13, 2015, 11:08:09 PM
      I think accumulating is the wrong word. Assuming the molecules Eddie alerted to came from a bag of grass cuttings (there was an article about grass recently), that bag would only have been in the car for about five minutes, so the mown grass smell would only accumulate for about five minutes, after that I think it would over weeks gradually reduce.


      Would you not expect the molecules to be pushed to the rear of the car & out through the ventilation vents there when the vehicle was being driven & the air conditioning in use? Why didn't Eddie alert at the tailgate seal?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 11:09:33 PM
      I have and it isn't.

      Yes it is
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 11:28:46 PM


      Would you not expect the molecules to be pushed to the rear of the car & out through the ventilation vents there when the vehicle was being driven & the air conditioning in use? Why didn't Eddie alert at the tailgate seal?
      The car was parked and the engine off when Eddie inspected it.
      If air-conditioning was on during the drive from PDL to the pretendy meeting and then to the garage, the air inside the car would be much cooler than outside. So after it was parked, the air flow would be heavy cool air going out the lower vents, replaced by warmer outside air going in the higher vents.
      Thankyou Misty.   
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 13, 2015, 11:39:15 PM
      Yes it is

      I'm afraid childish argument isn't my thing. I rest my case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 13, 2015, 11:46:40 PM
      The car was parked and the engine off when Eddie inspected it.
      If air-conditioning was on during the drive from PDL to the pretendy meeting and then to the garage, the air inside the car would be much cooler than outside. So after it was parked, the air flow would be heavy cool air going out the lower vents, replaced by warmer outside air going in the higher vents.
      Thankyou Misty.   

      We don't know what the air temperature was in the underground car park to determine what temperature change may have taken place in the Scenic but Eddie should have indicated at all the lower vents if there was cadaver odour in the car?
       The key fob would never have been stored in the side pocket as a matter of course, so how long would it have had to be in situ before the odour from the tiny blood speck had diffused to 3-5m from the vehicle?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 11:48:40 PM
      I'm afraid childish argument isn't my thing. I rest my case.

      So you'll be conceding defeat with good grace, then!


      That's good.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 13, 2015, 11:54:52 PM
      So you'll be conceding defeat with good grace, then!


      That's good.

      no sane rational logical person could or would concede so called defeat to a bunch of twisted lies which everyone can see so dream on FM but do have such a lovely evening thnking up some more

       8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 13, 2015, 11:57:02 PM
      no sane rational logical person could or would concede so called defeat to a bunch of twisted lies which everyone can see so dream on FM but do have such a lovely evening thnking up some more

       8((()*/

      You've been reading Amaral's book?

      That'll learn you ....

      Sleep well.

      But don't let Amaral's book give you nightmares ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 11:59:52 PM
      We don't know what the air temperature was in the underground car park to determine what temperature change may have taken place in the Scenic but Eddie should have indicated at all the lower vents if there was cadaver odour in the car?
       The key fob would never have been stored in the side pocket as a matter of course, so how long would it have had to be in situ before the odour from the tiny blood speck had diffused to 3-5m from the vehicle?
      Convection currents inside a parked car may cause air to come out one hole more than another IMO.
      IMO Eddie's alert at base of driver door was alert to mixed air coming from every part of the interior passenger/boot areas.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 14, 2015, 12:01:21 AM
      You've been reading Amaral's book?

      That'll learn you ....

      Sleep well.

      But don't let Amaral's book give you nightmares ....

      Poor, very poor
      Every person with at least two grey active cells can tell the difference between GUnits clear honest factual and supported posts compared to your twisted machinations, as I said, comical....you lost the battle a very long long time ago but Im sure you will parrot everything again tomorrow as IF that is going to do anything else apart from impinge on your energy lolol and stop libelling Grime and rewriting Harrison's history as it makes you look extremely desperate
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 14, 2015, 12:09:19 AM
      Convection currents inside a parked car may cause air to come out one hole more than another IMO.
      IMO Eddie's alert at base of driver door was alert to mixed air coming from every part of the interior passenger/boot areas.

      Why not the passenger door also?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 14, 2015, 12:15:32 AM
      Why not the passenger door also?
      The drain hole is same size.
      But the seal on the driver door is much more worn than the seals on the passenger doors or boot door.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 14, 2015, 12:27:55 AM
      The drain hole is same size.
      But the seal on the driver door is much more worn than the seals on the passenger doors or boot door.

      That's a bit of speculation on your part, I think. IMO the passenger door would have been equally as well used (if not more so with the passengers accessing the rear) whilst the Scenic was on hire to the McCanns. I believe the car only had around 3000km on the clock when they hired it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on September 14, 2015, 12:57:32 AM
      That's a bit of speculation on your part, I think. IMO the passenger door would have been equally as well used (if not more so with the passengers accessing the rear) whilst the Scenic was on hire to the McCanns. I believe the car only had around 3000km on the clock when they hired it.
      The driver door is the most used, it gets used every journey..
      The 3 passenger doors are used only when there are passengers.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 14, 2015, 01:11:53 AM
      The driver door is the most used, it gets used every journey..
      The 3 passenger doors are used only when there are passengers.

      As we have no statistics regarding how many times the driver was the sole occupant of the vehicle, argument is futile.
      The only grounds for dispute would be if the vehicle was used as a taxi.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 09:03:02 AM


      Would you not expect the molecules to be pushed to the rear of the car & out through the ventilation vents there when the vehicle was being driven & the air conditioning in use? Why didn't Eddie alert at the tailgate seal?

      I would presume the vehicle would have had air conditioning, which would have a significant impact on the dispersal of airborne materials.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2015, 09:33:51 AM
      I would presume the vehicle would have had air conditioning, which would have a significant impact on the dispersal of airborne materials.

                                   Does Eddie's alert in the garage merit further interminable discussion?

      It is proven that when Eddie was given the choice of alerting to a vehicle some still think was reeking of cadaver odour ... and alerting to a key fob buried in sand ... Eddie chose the key fob.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 09:39:46 AM
                                   Does Eddie's alert in the garage merit further interminable discussion?

      It is proven that when Eddie was given the choice of alerting to a vehicle some still think was reeking of cadaver odour ... and alerting to a key fob buried in sand ... Eddie chose the key fob.

      Were samples of the 'sand' taken to be tested ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2015, 09:58:30 AM
      Were samples of the 'sand' taken to be tested ?

      I take it you are being facetious.  The test was carried out by the best specialists to hand at the time ... are you questioning the methodology they used?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 10:02:01 AM
      I take it you are being facetious.  The test was carried out by the best specialists to hand at the time ... are you questioning the methodology they used?


      Not in the slightest.

      If the key fob was in the sand, and the dog alerted, it would seem to be logical just to take a sample of the sand for testing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 10:26:59 AM
      I take it you are being facetious.  The test was carried out by the best specialists to hand at the time ... are you questioning the methodology they used?

      what about the bucket the sand was in.....what about everything the sand and bucket had been in contact with...and of course...had any of the police involved had contact with a cadaver...the list is endless and that is why the alerts themselves are meaningless
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2015, 10:36:00 AM
      what about the bucket the sand was in.....what about everything the sand and bucket had been in contact with...and of course...had any of the police involved had contact with a cadaver...the list is endless and that is why the alerts themselves are meaningless

      I have always had my reservations about the key fob actually being in the sand.  It seemed a strange thing to do.  More like the demonstration of a party trick than a genuine investigation.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 10:46:15 AM
      I have always had my reservations about the key fob actually being in the sand.  It seemed a strange thing to do.  More like the demonstration of a party trick than a genuine investigation.

      The parallel with Grime's modus operandi in the Bianca Jones case is uncanny: stuff tested in one place, transported to another and tested a second time.

      In Detriot (Bianca Jones) it was the car seat, taken out of D'Lane's car, wrapped in brown paper and hidden in offices for the dog to sniff out a second time; also D'Lanes clothes, similarly treated and not found by Morse.

      Under the auspices of the Forensic Canine Program this business of testing a thing in one place, then testing it again in another place was the (additional) safeguard to a cadaver dog desensitised to the scent of blood that was the basis of the rationale that an uncorroborated cadaver dog alert could be accepted as stand-alone evidence of murder.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Angelo222 on September 14, 2015, 12:05:49 PM
      I have always had my reservations about the key fob actually being in the sand.  It seemed a strange thing to do.  More like the demonstration of a party trick than a genuine investigation.

      The big difference however being that a party trick has a predetermined outcome whereas an investigation by its very nature is just that, an investigation.  Unless of course you are claiming the outcome was engineered??
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 14, 2015, 12:11:04 PM
      The big difference however being that a party trick has a predetermined outcome whereas an investigation by its very nature is just that, an investigation.  Unless of course you are claiming the outcome was engineered??

      Why, in the first instance, place a key fob in a place  it would never have previously been put, ie. the side pocket of the driver door, in order to carry out a forensic test?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2015, 12:32:22 PM
      The big difference however being that a party trick has a predetermined outcome whereas an investigation by its very nature is just that, an investigation.  Unless of course you are claiming the outcome was engineered??

      I don't think for a minute that the outcome was engineered ... my initial concern was contamination of some kind since the fob was in direct contact with the sand.
      Usually evidence is bagged immediately.

      My concern was way before watching the  numerous training exercises available on the internet, reading blogs and papers.  But having  read all that ... I still do not understand what went on with the sand and the key fob.

      This was no training exercise using known quantifiable materials.  The key fob was evidence in the case of a missing child and my gut feeling is that was not the way to handle evidence.  Once removed from the vehicle and the vehicle ignored by the cadaver dog ... surely it wasn't necessary for the investigators on the ground to establish that there was blood on the key fob ... that was for a forensic examination to determine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 12:36:05 PM
      I don't think for a minute that the outcome was engineered ... my initial concern was contamination of some kind since the fob was in direct contact with the sand.
      Usually evidence is bagged immediately.

      My concern was way before watching the  numerous training exercises available on the internet, reading blogs and papers.  But having  read all that ... I still do not understand what went on with the sand and the key fob.

      This was no training exercise using known quantifiable materials.  The key fob was evidence in the case of a missing child and my gut feeling is that was not the way to handle evidence.  Once removed from the vehicle and the vehicle ignored by the cadaver dog ... surely it wasn't necessary for the investigators on the ground to establish that there was blood on the key fob ... that was for a forensic examination to determine.

      '... known quantifiable materials...'

      What precisely do you think that means ?


      Are you referring to the presence of  specific 'substances' which would be qualitative, and/or concentrations of specific substances ?

      To which substances are you referring to exactly ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2015, 12:50:48 PM
      The big difference however being that a party trick has a predetermined outcome whereas an investigation by its very nature is just that, an investigation.  Unless of course you are claiming the outcome was engineered??

      It's kind of like a long stop.
      The dogs alert but: 
      the alerts are meaningless; the dogs will alert to any substance you care to name; the dogs can be "gerrymandered"; the handler is bent; the handlers handler is bent; it was all a trumped up job. One of them has to stick surely? 8(0(*
      Nonetheless these views did not form part of the archiving process. Mind you following the usual trains of thought the archiving process was imprecise, based on fallacious information or just plain bent.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 14, 2015, 01:01:02 PM
      So you'll be conceding defeat with good grace, then!


      That's good.

      I'm back, refreshed and ready to make my point again. I don't need an answer unless supported by references, thank you.

      Your first assertion was that Harrison criticised Grime (tacitly). To support this assertion you suggested that Harrison only referred to Grime and the dogs when he spoke about searches recommended by Harrison, not when referring to the searches Harrison had nothing to do with (places or things which Madeleine  never went near).

      All the searches carried out were chosen following Harrison's recommendations in his reports, with the possible exception of the screening of items taken from the McCann's villa. I would guess that the decision to carry out those screenings arose after the alerts in G5A.

      Your second assertion was that Harrison didn't write the report 'Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document'.

      Harrison actually wrote two reports for the PJ. The one above and another one entitled 'Decision Support Document in the Search for Madeleine McCann—Praia da Luz & Marina'

      The reports were submitted and then a meeting was held;
      At both meetings, PJ agents were present and they were presided over by the Regional Director of the PJ Guilhermino ENCARNCAO who selected and established the priorities for the search areas.

      Between the 31.07.2007 and 07.08.2007 the searches took place in Praia da Luz were under the command and supervision of the Chief Inspector Vitor MATOS of the PJ. He was personally present at the searches and at his request I accompanied him as an advisor. The searches evolved were multidisciplinary and involved the PJ, GNR, UK Police and the University of Aveiro. All the searches that occurred were documented in video by the PJ, including location, time and date stamps.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2015, 01:15:35 PM
      '... known quantifiable materials...'

      What precisely do you think that means ?


      Are you referring to the presence of  specific 'substances' which would be qualitative, and/or concentrations of specific substances ?

      To which substances are you referring to exactly ?

      You seem to be misunderstanding my post in which I refer to training materials.  Unless it is your opinion that there is a haphazard selection of substances used in training of which the trainers have no knowledge.
      I don't quite see how that would work.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2015, 01:19:48 PM
      It's kind of like a long stop.
      The dogs alert but: 
      the alerts are meaningless; the dogs will alert to any substance you care to name; the dogs can be "gerrymandered"; the handler is bent; the handlers handler is bent; it was all a trumped up job. One of them has to stick surely? 8(0(*
      Nonetheless these views did not form part of the archiving process. Mind you following the usual trains of thought the archiving process was imprecise, based on fallacious information or just plain bent.

             I have no idea how you can possibly make that inference from my original post.  Quite mysterious.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 01:25:06 PM
      It's kind of like a long stop.
      The dogs alert but: 
      the alerts are meaningless; the dogs will alert to any substance you care to name; the dogs can be "gerrymandered"; the handler is bent; the handlers handler is bent; it was all a trumped up job. One of them has to stick surely? 8(0(*
      Nonetheless these views did not form part of the archiving process. Mind you following the usual trains of thought the archiving process was imprecise, based on fallacious information or just plain bent.

      Once you understand the role of the dogs is to find evidence and it's the evidence they find which is important not the alerts..... Then it will all make sense to you
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 01:34:31 PM
      You seem to be misunderstanding my post in which I refer to training materials.  Unless it is your opinion that there is a haphazard selection of substances used in training of which the trainers have no knowledge.
      I don't quite see how that would work.

      I understand you perfectly well.

      The dogs, in whatever field of perorations they are used, are trained on a certain group of substances.

      I presume you do understand the difference between 'qualitative and quantitative' ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 01:36:29 PM
      I understand you perfectly well.

      The dogs, in whatever field of perorations they are used, are trained on a certain group of substances.

      I presume you do understand the difference between 'qualitative and quantitative' ?

      So when were the human remains you have referred to found
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2015, 01:54:54 PM
      I understand you perfectly well.

      The dogs, in whatever field of perorations they are used, are trained on a certain group of substances.

      I presume you do understand the difference between 'qualitative and quantitative' ?

      In my original post I said ...
      "I have always had my reservations about the key fob actually being in the sand.  It seemed a strange thing to do.  More like the demonstration of a party trick than a genuine investigation."

      The only interpretation I can put on your response is one of total misunderstanding. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 02:00:46 PM
      I'm back, refreshed and ready to make my point again. I don't need an answer unless supported by references, thank you.

      Your first assertion was that Harrison criticised Grime (tacitly). To support this assertion you suggested that Harrison only referred to Grime and the dogs when he spoke about searches recommended by Harrison, not when referring to the searches Harrison had nothing to do with (places or things which Madeleine  never went near).

      All the searches carried out were chosen following Harrison's recommendations in his reports, with the possible exception of the screening of items taken from the McCann's villa. I would guess that the decision to carry out those screenings arose after the alerts in G5A.

      The part I underline is wrong.  Harrison's wording of those searches he recommended is very different from Harrison's wording for those searches he had nothing to do with; the places Madeleine never lived in or went near.  It is undoubtedly deliberate (by Harrison) that those searches Harrison recommended he acknowledges the input of Grime and his dogs.


      Your second assertion was that Harrison didn't write the report 'Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document'.

      Later amended to Harrison included in his report recommendations not his (which is correct)

      Harrison actually wrote two reports for the PJ. The one above and another one entitled 'Decision Support Document in the Search for Madeleine McCann—Praia da Luz & Marina'

      Harrison wrote 3 reports.

      The reports were submitted and then a meeting was held;
      At both meetings, PJ agents were present and they were presided over by the Regional Director of the PJ Guilhermino ENCARNCAO who selected and established the priorities for the search areas.

      Between the 31.07.2007 and 07.08.2007 the searches took place in Praia da Luz were under the command and supervision of the Chief Inspector Vitor MATOS of the PJ. He was personally present at the searches and at his request I accompanied him as an advisor. The searches evolved were multidisciplinary and involved the PJ, GNR, UK Police and the University of Aveiro. All the searches that occurred were documented in video by the PJ, including location, time and date stamps.
      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 02:17:21 PM
      In my original post I said ...
      "I have always had my reservations about the key fob actually being in the sand.  It seemed a strange thing to do.  More like the demonstration of a party trick than a genuine investigation."

      The only interpretation I can put on your response is one of total misunderstanding.

      You seem unable to grasp what I asked.

      Now try reading my last post again, rather than making incorrect assumptions.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 02:34:11 PM
      The big difference however being that a party trick has a predetermined outcome whereas an investigation by its very nature is just that, an investigation.  Unless of course you are claiming the outcome was engineered??

      For me, at least, the biggest question mark over the key fob was its likelihood of yielding Madeleine's DNA.

      What were the chances of it being found on the ignition key of a car hired 3 weeks after abduction?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 14, 2015, 02:56:57 PM


      Please provide references for your replies.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 03:03:05 PM
      All scent dogs are valued on their ability to find evidence that can be used in court
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2015, 03:16:45 PM
      Once you understand the role of the dogs is to find evidence and it's the evidence they find which is important not the alerts..... Then it will all make sense to you

      I understood the role of dogs long before I signed up here.
      The real question, where the jury remains out, is do you?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 14, 2015, 03:21:14 PM
      I understood the role of dogs long before I signed up here.
      The real question, where the jury remains out, is do you?
      I don't understand the role of the dogs, so what is it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 03:24:35 PM
      Please provide references for your replies.

      Have already done so, but I will do so again.

      Harrison's recommendations

      In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

      Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

      This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

      McCann's Apartment.

      The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
      opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
      Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.

      Murat's House and Garden.

      The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
      A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
      Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
      Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
      This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.

      An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


      Page 2228 :

      Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.

      These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.

      Murat's Vehicles.

      All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
      examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.

      Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.

      This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast.
      This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
      Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.

      An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.

      Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.

      The beach and shoreline are bounded by high cliffs and shallow waters. The beach has fine granular sand and provides easy digging. However the beach is extensively used by tourists and locals and af?rds minimal areas of cover from view for concealment. It may be considered appropriate to use the VRD dog team supported by geophysical GPR to sweep the beach. This would be


      Page 2229 :

      a considerable time and cost undertaking and should be weighed in the absence of specific intelligence.

      Search Duration.

      If all the described assets were deployed it would be likely all assets would complete their searches within one week.


      I have attempted to help you by underlining those parts that indicate Harrison's direct recommendations.

      Note three absences: no reference to the villa (where Madeleine never lived); no reference to the gym (where Madeleine never went near); no reference to vehciles other than those owned or driven by Murat.

      More in an edit:

      (Something went wrog with my attempt to add an edit).

      Will attempt again.

      Seconds out, take 2:

      Here is where Harrison makes reference to places or things Madeleine never lived in or went near.

      This is the first reference to places Madeleine never lived in or never went near.

      And Harrison's wording is very different.

      The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07.

      It recommended considering re searching:
       
      - All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
      - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
      - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
      - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
      - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.
       
      These recommendations were based on the fact that these areas had not been previously searched with the specific intent to locate Madeleine McCann’s concealed and deceased body and that the areas recommended afforded likely and obvious places to consider for concealment in such an investigation.
       
      This document was discussed on 23-07-07 with the PJ Director, myself and the Leicestershire Police liaison officer DI Neil Holden who made relevant notes.
       
      On 25-07-07 the PJ Director decided his officers would re-search some of the areas suggested within the report. He also decided the order of their priority. These were the accommodation the McCann’s and their friends have occupied in Praia da Luz, the villa and the grounds occupied by Robert Murat, wasteland that surrounds these locations and any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared.


      Still no reference to the gym ....

      And it won't go away that in his summary of all searches, Harrison references Grime and his dogs only in those searches he (Harrison) recommended:

      The timeline of these searches was as follows:
       
      On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
       
      On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
       
      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
       
      On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
       
      On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
       
      On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
       
      On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
       
      On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.


      Why, in your opinion (for instance) does Harrison summarise both inspections at villa and gym as PJ exercises?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 04:06:21 PM
      I understood the role of dogs long before I signed up here.
      The real question, where the jury remains out, is do you?

      The role of the dogs is to find evidence
      Am I wrong
      I'm certainly not
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2015, 04:08:22 PM
      I don't understand the role of the dogs, so what is it?

      Yet you post as if you believe you do  &%+((£

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 04:14:01 PM
      The role of the dogs is to find evidence
      Am I wrong
      I'm certainly not

      The role of the dogs is to detect and react to scents it has been trained to react to.

      Sometimes those scents will be germane to a criminal enquiry; sometimes not.

      And sometimes (mostly if the dog is poorly handled) a reaction will be for reason(s) other than the presence of a scent it is trained to react to ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 14, 2015, 04:21:38 PM
      Yet you post as if you believe you do  &%+((£
      I thought I did but you've made me doubt myself so I'd be grateful if you could enlighten me, thanks in advance.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 04:36:49 PM
      The role of the dogs is to detect and react to scents it has been trained to react to.

      Sometimes those scents will be germane to a criminal enquiry; sometimes not.

      And sometimes (mostly if the dog is poorly handled) a reaction will be for reason(s) other than the presence of a scent it is trained to react to ....
      There is a quote by Harrison where he says the role of the dogs is to discover forensically retrievable evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 04:42:29 PM
      There is a quote by Harrison where he says the role of the dogs is to discover forensically retrievable evidence

      I guess it all turns on specific definition of role; intended or specific purpose: raison d'etre

      Occasionally, the role will not be fulfilled, even where a dog reacts within it scent and training range.

      Still, the role remains the same ...

      Probably is right ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 04:57:05 PM
      I guess it all turns on specific definition of role; intended or specific purpose: raison d'etre

      Occasionally, the role will not be fulfilled, even where a dog reacts within it scent and training range.

      Still, the role remains the same ...

      Probably is right ....

      It's Grime who makes that statement
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 05:08:20 PM
      The role of the dogs is to detect and react to scents it has been trained to react to.

      Sometimes those scents will be germane to a criminal enquiry; sometimes not.

      And sometimes (mostly if the dog is poorly handled) a reaction will be for reason(s) other than the presence of a scent it is trained to react to ....

      ................ 'if the dog is poorly handled'   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*


      So speaketh one of  'team mccann'. 8(*(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 05:18:02 PM
      ................ 'if the dog is poorly handled'   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*


      So speaketh one of  'team mccann'. 8(*(

      Why, in your opinion, did Harrison describe both inspections at villa and gym as PJ exercises?

      Do you think it significant that Harrison waited until after both those inspections to issue the PJ with translated instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 05:22:47 PM
      Why, in your opinion, did Harrison describe both inspections at villa and gym as PJ exercises?

      Do you think it significant that Harrison waited until after both those inspections to issue the PJ with translated instructions on how to conduct inspections in buildings and vehicles?

      The most pertinent way to answer that question is to ask the man himself.

      Neither me, you or anyone else on this forum was there at the time events took place.

      So why not take the initiative and contact him directly, and let us all see the answer.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2015, 05:33:00 PM
      I thought I did but you've made me doubt myself so I'd be grateful if you could enlighten me, thanks in advance.

      It's simple really try this first: "For what would you use an M20 ring spanner"?
      So by extension:
      "The role of the dogs is to assist in the locating of deceased human’s remains. Victim Remains Recovery Dogs are trained to smell decomposition. Blood Screening Dogs are trained to smell blood. The dogs are used as a coarse screening tool to narrow down search areas for the CSIs, SOCOs call ‘em what you will".
      Just as an aside verbal cues and directional cues are common practice.
      Like I don't know of an M20 spaniard that will jump on a bolt without me cuing it !
      The dog's a tool nothing more nothing less.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 05:40:33 PM
      It's simple really try this first: "For what would you use an M20 ring spanner"?
      So by extension:
      "The role of the dogs is to assist in the locating of deceased human’s remains. Victim Remains Recovery Dogs are trained to smell decomposition. Blood Screening Dogs are trained to smell blood. The dogs are used as a coarse screening tool to narrow down search areas for the CSIs, SOCOs call ‘em what you will".
      Just as an aside verbal cues and directional cues are common practice.
      Like I don't know of an M20 spaniard that will jump on a bolt without me cuing it !
      The dog's a tool nothing more nothing less.
      Had the dog recovered any human remains that would be evidence
      As for the blood dog he is trained to point where blood can be recovered
      More evidencee
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 14, 2015, 05:41:47 PM
      It's simple really try this first: "For what would you use an M20 ring spanner"?
      So by extension:
      "The role of the dogs is to assist in the locating of deceased human’s remains. Victim Remains Recovery Dogs are trained to smell decomposition. Blood Screening Dogs are trained to smell blood. The dogs are used as a coarse screening tool to narrow down search areas for the CSIs, SOCOs call ‘em what you will".
      Just as an aside verbal cues and directional cues are common practice.
      Like I don't know of an M20 spaniard that will jump on a bolt without me cuing it !
      The dog's a tool nothing more nothing less.
      Hot dang!  I DID know what the role of the dogs was after all, but thanks for confirming.  What was their role in Apartment 5a though, where it was pretty obvious there were no bits of body lying about?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 14, 2015, 06:46:03 PM
      Hot dang!  I DID know what the role of the dogs was after all, but thanks for confirming.  What was their role in Apartment 5a though, where it was pretty obvious there were no bits of body lying about?

      Apart from your definition of "remains" seemingly being a bit more prescriptive than is the case you mean?

      Recap:
      The dogs are used as a coarse screening tool to narrow down search areas for the CSIs, SOCOs call ‘em what you will".  Then it's up to the SOCOs to find or not, things that dogs alert to.
      Recap: that being, scent of decomposition and blood among other things they are trained to alert to.
      Then when the SOCOs have found something it goes to a lab for analysis and report.
      Then in this instance the report says, effectively, "we can rule nothing in and can rule nothing out".
      End of the line for anything stout enough to stand up in court but intelligence enough for a competent IO to park it until something does rule it in or out.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 06:52:26 PM
      Then in this instance the report says, effectively, "we can rule nothing in and can rule nothing out".

      Nope.

      Doesn't say that, effectively or literally.

      It says nothing at all.

      Nil.

      Zilch

      Blank.

      Try again another day ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 14, 2015, 07:19:00 PM
      Have already done so, but I will do so again.

      Harrison's recommendations

      In considering the two scenarios that Madeleine McCann has been murdered and her body disposed of by a person on foot or in a vehicle, I have reflected on the areas within zone 1 that have been previously searched or subject to forensic examination.

      Mark Warner Creche at Praia Da Luz.

      This is the location of the last confirmed sighting by a person independent of family members of Madeleine McCann. Although this location was within the original search area it may well benefit from a further search using enhanced detecting methods for human remains. This will depend on the size of any outside grounds and concealed areas inside the building.

      McCann's Apartment.

      The apartment in which the McCann's had stayed may present further
      opportunities to search. The use of a specialist EVRD (Enhanced Victim
      Recovery Dog) and CSI dog (human blood detecting dog) could potentially indicate on whether Madeline's blood is in the property or the scent of a dead body is present. In relation to the dead body scent if such a scent is indicated by the EVRD and no body is located it may suggest that a body has been in the property but removed. This search process could be repeated in all the apartments that were occupied by the friends holidaying with the McCann's.

      Murat's House and Garden.

      The property has been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however the house and gardens may benefit from a fully invasive specialist search to preclude the presence of Madeleine McCann.
      A method previously employed on similar cases has been to use the below assets.
      Deploy the EVRD to search the house and garden to ensure Madeleine McCann's remains are not present. The dog may also indicate if a body has been stored in the recent past and then moved off the property, though this is not evidential merely intelligence.
      Deploy the CSI dog to search the house to locate any human blood.
      This will act in support of the forensic examination already completed.

      An inhibiting factor will be on areas where Luminol has been used.


      Page 2228 :

      Deploy geophysical instruments in the house and garden to detect any burial of a body or concealment in voids.

      These specialists should be supported by physical search teams exploring and accessing all areas where concealment of a child's body could be made typically 0.5m.

      Murat's Vehicles.

      All vehicles Murat has had access to have been forensically examined to recover any surface trace evidence however they may all benefit from a full search by the EVRD and CSI dogs. They may be able to detect whether a dead body has been transported in one of the vehicles for intelligence purposes or detect human blood deposits that can be recovered and
      examined in a laboratory for Madeleine McCann's blood.

      Open Area to East of Praia Da Luz.

      This open area between the village urban limits and the Boavista golf club to the east and includes a plateau on which sits a trig point and mobile phone mast.
      This area has been previously searched by officers and dogs walking through the area to check for Madeleine McCann's visible remains. However considering the new scenario of Homicide and concealed deposition this area affords many opportunities to dispose of a body. Within this area there are old empty properties, wells, thick vegetation, pockets of soft sand and natural fissures in the cliffs. Whilst there is no intelligence she is buried or concealed in this land it would be a natural place an offender may choose dose to the Village using the least effort principle. A proportionate response may therefore be considered to conduct a search of this area using a team of Victim Recovery Dogs (VRD) that are specifically trained to located concealed human remains.
      Prior to undertaking this task it would be beneficial to consult with a Forensic Anthropologist with knowledge of this region of Portugal to give opinion as to the likely state of any remains to be found. Further research could also be conducted with regards to the natural scavenging predators in the area.

      An inhibiting factor is that since the disappearance of the child an old empty house adjacent to the Trig Point on the Rocha Negra has been demolished and all rubble removed, If she was concealed within this property the search would be unlikely to detect her now.

      Praia Da Luz Beach and Shoreline.

      The beach and shoreline are bounded by high cliffs and shallow waters. The beach has fine granular sand and provides easy digging. However the beach is extensively used by tourists and locals and af?rds minimal areas of cover from view for concealment. It may be considered appropriate to use the VRD dog team supported by geophysical GPR to sweep the beach. This would be


      Page 2229 :

      a considerable time and cost undertaking and should be weighed in the absence of specific intelligence.

      Search Duration.

      If all the described assets were deployed it would be likely all assets would complete their searches within one week.


      I have attempted to help you by underlining those parts that indicate Harrison's direct recommendations.

      Note three absences: no reference to the villa (where Madeleine never lived); no reference to the gym (where Madeleine never went near); no reference to vehciles other than those owned or driven by Murat.

      Taken from 'Madeleine McCann Search Decision support document' written by Harrison and dated 23rd July;

      It recommended considering re searching:
       
      - All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
      - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
      - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
      - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
      - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.


      More in an edit:

      (Something went wrog with my attempt to add an edit).

      Will attempt again.

      Seconds out, take 2:

      Here is where Harrison makes reference to places or things Madeleine never lived in or went near.

      This is the first reference to places Madeleine never lived in or never went near.

      And Harrison's wording is very different.

      The output of this process of reconnaissance and review was a written document entitled “Madeleine McCann Search Decision Support Document” (see appendix 2) and submitted to the PJ with copies supplied to Leicestershire Police and NPIA on 23-07-07.

      It recommended considering re searching:
       
      - All accommodation occupied by the McCann family and their friends as well as any hired vehicles.
      - The villa and garden occupied by Robert Murat and any vehicles he had access to.
      - Areas of wasteland adjacent to Murat’s and the McCann’s apartment.
      - Areas of the beach in Praia da Luz.
      - A portion of the coastline east of Praia da Luz.
       
      These recommendations were based on the fact that these areas had not been previously searched with the specific intent to locate Madeleine McCann’s concealed and deceased body and that the areas recommended afforded likely and obvious places to consider for concealment in such an investigation.
       
      This document was discussed on 23-07-07 with the PJ Director, myself and the Leicestershire Police liaison officer DI Neil Holden who made relevant notes.
       
      On 25-07-07 the PJ Director decided his officers would re-search some of the areas suggested within the report. He also decided the order of their priority. These were the accommodation the McCann’s and their friends have occupied in Praia da Luz, the villa and the grounds occupied by Robert Murat, wasteland that surrounds these locations and any known vehicles the suspect, the McCanns and their friends had access to when Madeleine disappeared.


      Still no reference to the gym ....

      Nevertheless the recommendations come from a report written and submitted by Harrison, quoted above.

      And it won't go away that in his summary of all searches, Harrison references Grime and his dogs only in those searches he (Harrison) recommended:

      The timeline of these searches was as follows:
       
      On 31-07-07 the PJ conducted canine searches with a search warrant at apartments in Praia da Luz that had been previously occupied by the McCanns and their friends.
       
      On 01-08-07 the PJ and GNR assisted by a canine, conducted searches on the eastern beach and wasteland in Praia da Luz.
       
      On 02-08-07 the PJ conducted a search warrant at a villa in Praia da Luz currently occupied by the McCann family.
       
      Later the same day PJ officers conducted a screening procedure involving items removed from the McCann’s villa.
       
      On 03-08-07 PJ and GNR officers were given instruction based on translated extracts from NPIA doctrine on search management and procedures. This focused on search procedures relating to buildings and vehicles.
       
      On 04-08-07 and 05-08-07 a search warrant was executed at the villa and gardens belonging to the PJ suspect Robert Murat. This search involved both PJ and GNR personnel supported by civil defence, geophysical equipment operators and a canine handler.
       
      On 06-08-07 ten vehicles were searched associated to the enquiry.
       
      On 07-08-07 the western beach and remaining wasteland areas were searched using canine and GNR personnel.
       
      On 08-08-07 the drains around the apartment block where Madeleine McCann disappeared from were subject to a visual inspection by PJ officers.


      Why, in your opinion (for instance) does Harrison summarise both inspections at villa and gym as PJ exercises?

      When you say he referred to some searches 'without mentioning Grime' so what? It's just the way he's written it and not of any significance. The significance you think you've found is just your opinion.

      After all the fuss, the only place Harrison didn't recommend searching is a gym? Why would he recommend that? In reality the screening in the gym happened because they decided to remove items form the villa. I'll allow you that - he never recommended screening clothes. How that arose we don't know.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 14, 2015, 07:47:23 PM
      Apart from your definition of "remains" seemingly being a bit more prescriptive than is the case you mean?

      Recap:
      The dogs are used as a coarse screening tool to narrow down search areas for the CSIs, SOCOs call ‘em what you will".  Then it's up to the SOCOs to find or not, things that dogs alert to.
      Recap: that being, scent of decomposition and blood among other things they are trained to alert to.
      Then when the SOCOs have found something it goes to a lab for analysis and report.
      Then in this instance the report says, effectively, "we can rule nothing in and can rule nothing out".
      End of the line for anything stout enough to stand up in court but intelligence enough for a competent IO to park it until something does rule it in or out.
      So a dog is  like the canine version of a metal detector, a tool that helps its user to find stuff, though it can't tell its owner precisely what it is alerting to, it's up to the user(s) to find the stuff that might have triggered the alert and try to make head and tail of it.  I expect I got that wrong and you will educate me some more. 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 07:55:20 PM
      So a dog is  like the canine version of a metal detector, a tool that helps its user to find stuff, though it can't tell its owner precisely what it is alerting to, it's up to the user(s) to find the stuff that might have triggered the alert and try to make head and tail of it.  I expect I got that wrong and you will educate me some more. 8((()*/

      Wow alfred.

      That's amazing. Dogs don't talk. 8(*(

      Actually the user doesn't find the 'stuff'.

      That's the job of the forensic scientists.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 08:02:41 PM
      When you say he referred to some searches 'without mentioning Grime' so what? It's just the way he's written it and not of any significance. The significance you think you've found is just your opinion.

      After all the fuss, the only place Harrison didn't recommend searching is a gym? Why would he recommend that? In reality the screening in the gym happened because they decided to remove items form the villa. I'll allow you that - he never recommended screening clothes. How that arose we don't know.

      I have pointed out before, and am happy to repeat, that there was never the slightest justification for inspection of clothing; let alone two inspections of the same clothing in two different places.

      Inspection of clothing is something else Harrison made literally no reference to.

      Do you not think it significant that Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct canine inspections in buildings?

      And given disregard of principles of cross-contamination in the way clothing was transferred to the gym, does that not make a mockery of apparent preoccupation with the possibility of pre-existing scents in the gym?

      Or did the PJ crib off this translated literature Harrison gave them on how to conduct canine inspections in buildings and vehicles?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 08:32:12 PM
      Wow alfred.

      That's amazing. Dogs don't talk. 8(*(

      Actually the user doesn't find the 'stuff'.

      That's the job of the forensic scientists.

      the user does find the stuff...and the scientists analyse it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 08:33:03 PM
      I have pointed out before, and am happy to repeat, that there was never the slightest justification for inspection of clothing; let alone two inspections of the same clothing in two different places.

      Inspection of clothing is something else Harrison made literally no reference to.

      Do you not think it significant that Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct canine inspections in buildings?

      And given disregard of principles of cross-contamination in the way clothing was transferred to the gym, does that not make a mockery of apparent preoccupation with the possibility of pre-existing scents in the gym?

      Or did the PJ crib off this translated literature Harrison gave them on how to conduct canine inspections in buildings and vehicles?

      Why was there no justification for inspection of clothing ?

      Have you know become an expert in forensics as well ? 8**8:/:
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 08:34:42 PM
      Apart from your definition of "remains" seemingly being a bit more prescriptive than is the case you mean?

      Recap:
      The dogs are used as a coarse screening tool to narrow down search areas for the CSIs, SOCOs call ‘em what you will".  Then it's up to the SOCOs to find or not, things that dogs alert to.
      Recap: that being, scent of decomposition and blood among other things they are trained to alert to.
      Then when the SOCOs have found something it goes to a lab for analysis and report.
      Then in this instance the report says, effectively, "we can rule nothing in and can rule nothing out".
      End of the line for anything stout enough to stand up in court but intelligence enough for a competent IO to park it until something does rule it in or out.

      the dogs are quite a precise screening  tool and can locate blood residues invisible to the naked eye,,,,

      looks like I understand the alerts a lot better than you do
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 14, 2015, 08:40:16 PM

      Keep it pleasant, please.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 14, 2015, 08:43:05 PM
      I have pointed out before, and am happy to repeat, that there was never the slightest justification for inspection of clothing; let alone two inspections of the same clothing in two different places.

      Inspection of clothing is something else Harrison made literally no reference to.

      Do you not think it significant that Harrison waited until after both inspections at villa and gym to issue PJ personnel with instructions on how to conduct canine inspections in buildings?

      And given disregard of principles of cross-contamination in the way clothing was transferred to the gym, does that not make a mockery of apparent preoccupation with the possibility of pre-existing scents in the gym?

      Or did the PJ crib off this translated literature Harrison gave them on how to conduct canine inspections in buildings and vehicles?

      I have no interest in debating  how and why the searches were conducted. My only interest was in correcting your assumptions about Harrison and your assertions that he tacitly criticised Grime (not demonstrated) and that he didn't suggest certain search areas (incorrect, he did).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 14, 2015, 08:43:18 PM
      Wow alfred.

      That's amazing. Dogs don't talk. 8(*(

      Actually the user doesn't find the 'stuff'.

      That's the job of the forensic scientists.
      Dogs don't talk but some people believe that when Eddie barked he was telling us that Madeleine's body was in the apartment and hire car.  There's nowt so queer as folk!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 08:51:35 PM
      Dogs don't talk but some people believe that when Eddie barked he was telling us that Madeleine's body was in the apartment and hire car.  There's nowt so queer as folk!

      Among other things, dogs bark when they indicate.

      You do realize of course there is a subtle difference between a body being present, and 'residues' being detected from one ? 8(>((
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 08:53:04 PM
      I have no interest in debating  how and why the searches were conducted. My only interest was in correcting your assumptions about Harrison and your assertions that he tacitly criticised Grime (not demonstrated) and that he didn't suggest certain search areas (incorrect, he did).

      Ah well.

      Ernest try, but you failed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 08:58:02 PM
      Why was there no justification for inspection of clothing ?

      Have you know become an expert in forensics as well ? 8**8:/:

      The inspection came 3 months after the crime.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 09:04:34 PM
      The inspection came 3 months after the crime.

      and...........
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 14, 2015, 09:30:25 PM
      and...........

      What would minute traces of Madeleine's blood on any clothing have demonstrated?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 14, 2015, 09:53:04 PM
      Among other things, dogs bark when they indicate.

      You do realize of course there is a subtle difference between a body being present, and 'residues' being detected from one ? 8(>((
      It seems you don't as you claimed the dogs found human remains
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 14, 2015, 10:13:02 PM
      Ah well.

      Ernest try, but you failed.

      I don't think you are the best judge of that, you seem to be in complete denial.  @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 14, 2015, 10:20:23 PM


      Remains includes materials left behind. A very broad term used in a variety of contexts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 14, 2015, 10:31:37 PM

      Remains includes materials left behind. A very broad term used in a variety of contexts.
      would you class drops of blood as human remains?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 07:02:30 AM

      Remains includes materials left behind. A very broad term used in a variety of contexts.

      for your edification....human remains means a cadaver or body parts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 08:53:01 AM
      for your edification....human remains means a cadaver or body parts.

      Blood comes from organs/parts/remains of bodies dave, including humans.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2015, 09:16:05 AM
      Blood comes from organs/parts/remains of bodies dave, including humans.
      So you would class specks of blood as human remains would you...?  &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 09:32:53 AM
      So you would class specks of blood as human remains would you...?  &%+((£

      Perhaps you should read my last answer more carefully. 8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2015, 09:54:28 AM
      Perhaps you should read my last answer more carefully. 8)-)))
      Perhaps you should answer my question with a straightforward yes or no. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 09:56:54 AM
      Perhaps you should answer my question with a straightforward yes or no.

      So tell me, where does blood come from ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carlymichelle on September 15, 2015, 09:57:58 AM
      So tell me, where does blood come from ?

      the human body has about 5 litres of  blood doesnt it? it pumps your heart lungs etc  8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2015, 10:14:37 AM
      So tell me, where does blood come from ?
      That is not answering my question with a straightforward yes or no, it is answering my question with another question.  Human blood comes from a human body, as does saliva, semen, ear wax and toenail clippings.  Now, do you class blood as human remains or not?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 10:40:45 AM
      That is not answering my question with a straightforward yes or no, it is answering my question with another question.  Human blood comes from a human body, as does saliva, semen, ear wax and toenail clippings.  Now, do you class blood as human remains or not?

      What does the word remains mean alfred ?

      This might help.

      debris,
      remnants,
      detritus,
      leavings,
      leftovers,
      remainder,
      remnants,
      residue,

      etc.

      i.e. a word carrying many meanings.

      So alfred can blood come from a body as well ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2015, 10:53:17 AM
      What does the word remains mean alfred ?

      This might help.

      debris,
      remnants,
      detritus,
      leavings,
      leftovers,
      remainder,
      remnants,
      residue,

      etc.

      i.e. a word carrying many meanings.

      So alfred can blood come from a body as well ?
      So, I take it from the above that you would class blood, saliva, semen, ear wax and toenail clippings as human remains.  Thanks - we've got that sorted then.   *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 11:04:24 AM
      So, I take it from the above that you would class blood, saliva, semen, ear wax and toenail clippings as human remains.  Thanks - we've got that sorted then.   *&*%£

      Well how would you classify them alfred ?

      You have a long list to choose from. 8(>((
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 11:12:10 AM
      Well how would you classify them alfred ?

      You have a long list to choose from. 8(>((

      Human remains is a specific term referring to a cadaver or body parts
      A massive mistake by stephen

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 11:19:54 AM
      Human remains is a specific term referring to a cadaver or body parts
      A massive mistake by stephen


      Nope.

      and do stop calling me a  liar or accuse me of telling lies. All future  breaches will be reported, as was done this morning.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 12:07:07 PM
      So a dog is  like the canine version of a metal detector, a tool that helps its user to find stuff, though it can't tell its owner precisely what it is alerting to, it's up to the user(s) to find the stuff that might have triggered the alert and try to make head and tail of it.  I expect I got that wrong and you will educate me some more. 8((()*/

      You said:
      I thought I did but you've made me doubt myself so I'd be grateful if you could enlighten me, thanks in advance.
      I gave you my opinion. It may be right it may be wrong but that is the opinion I stick with. Make of it what you will it is fairly well laid out and doesn't really need interminable questions to clarify it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 12:10:45 PM
      Then in this instance the report says, effectively, "we can rule nothing in and can rule nothing out".

      Nope.

      Doesn't say that, effectively or literally.

      It says nothing at all.

      Nil.

      Zilch

      Blank.

      Try again another day ...

      You mean the FSS sent a report saying:
      Nil.

      Zilch

      Blank.

      Odd that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 15, 2015, 12:32:33 PM

      Nope.

      and do stop calling me a  liar or accuse me of telling lies. All future  breaches will be reported, as was done this morning.

      Stephen - you are taking your usual tactic of arguing that black is white without any corroboration to a ridiculous extent here.

      To take a few at random from a google search:

      The OED - Human Remains - "a person's body after death"

      Duhaime legal - "Human remains ... means the body of a deceased person, regardless of its stage of decomposition, and cremated remains." But cremated remains, essentially just ashes but often including bone fragments, are not always included in the definition of human remains. "

      Oregan legal ""Human remains" or "remains" means the body of a deceased person in any stage of decomposition or after cremation."

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 12:33:26 PM

      Nope.

      and do stop calling me a  liar or accuse me of telling lies. All future  breaches will be reported, as was done this morning.

      I haven't done either
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 12:43:41 PM
      Stephen - you are taking your usual tactic of arguing that black is white without any corroboration to a ridiculous extent here.

      To take a few at random from a google search:

      The OED - Human Remains - "a person's body after death"

      Duhaime legal - "Human remains ... means the body of a deceased person, regardless of its stage of decomposition, and cremated remains." But cremated remains, essentially just ashes but often including bone fragments, are not always included in the definition of human remains. "

      Oregan legal ""Human remains" or "remains" means the body of a deceased person in any stage of decomposition or after cremation."

      Remains has  many meanings.

      I gave a list of some earlier.

      You can continue to quibble over the meaning as you wish.

      Your choice.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 12:50:11 PM

      3. DEFINITION OF HUMAN REMAINS
      We acknowledge the definition of human remains given in the DCMS guidelines and base our definition on that. We use the term human remains to mean the bodies, and parts of bodies, of once living people from the species Homo sapiens (defined as individuals who fall within the range of anatomical forms known today and in the recent past) and any evolutionary earlier hominins with which modern humans today may share a common ancestor (e.g. Homo neanderthalensis). This includes osteological material (whole or part skeletons, individual bones, or fragments of bone or teeth), soft tissue including organs and skin, embryos and slide preparations of human tissue. In line with the Human Tissue Act 2004, the definition does not include hair and nails. Human remains also include any of the above which may have been modified in some way by human skill and/or may be physically bound-up with other non-human materials to form an artefact composed of several materials. This definition includes artworks composed of human bodily fluids and soft tissue.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 12:53:55 PM
      3. DEFINITION OF HUMAN REMAINS
      We acknowledge the definition of human remains given in the DCMS guidelines and base our definition on that. We use the term human remains to mean the bodies, and parts of bodies, of once living people from the species Homo sapiens (defined as individuals who fall within the range of anatomical forms known today and in the recent past) and any evolutionary earlier hominins with which modern humans today may share a common ancestor (e.g. Homo neanderthalensis). This includes osteological material (whole or part skeletons, individual bones, or fragments of bone or teeth), soft tissue including organs and skin, embryos and slide preparations of human tissue. In line with the Human Tissue Act 2004, the definition does not include hair and nails. Human remains also include any of the above which may have been modified in some way by human skill and/or may be physically bound-up with other non-human materials to form an artefact composed of several materials. This definition includes artworks composed of human bodily fluids and soft tissue.

      So what human remains were found in PDL
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 01:04:13 PM
      Remains has  many meanings.

      I gave a list of some earlier.

      You can continue to quibble over the meaning as you wish.

      Your choice.
      There were no human remains found
      You are propagating a lie
      Propagating a lie is not telling a lie...


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 01:12:37 PM
      If human remains were found the alerts would be confirmed and this thread would not exist
      Point proven
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 01:22:28 PM
      So what human remains were found in PDL

      I was just posting an English definition of human remains rather than have to rely on Oregon State.

      What did the reports say? Were analyses done for DNA?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 01:24:49 PM
      I was just posting an English definition of human remains rather than have to rely on Oregon State.

      What did the reports say? Were analyses done for DNA?

      And your definition confirmed no human remains were found
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2015, 01:29:01 PM
      You said:
      I thought I did but you've made me doubt myself so I'd be grateful if you could enlighten me, thanks in advance.
      I gave you my opinion. It may be right it may be wrong but that is the opinion I stick with. Make of it what you will it is fairly well laid out and doesn't really need interminable questions to clarify it.
      In my opinion it does, and as we know all opinions are equally valid. ?>)()<
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 01:36:28 PM
      There were no human remains found
      You are propagating a lie
      Propagating a lie is not telling a lie...

      You do not know if human remains/residues were found that indicated a body.

      THE FORENSIC RESULTS WERE INCONCLUSIVE.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 15, 2015, 01:53:24 PM
      You do not know if human remains/residues were found that indicated a body.

      THE FORENSIC RESULTS WERE INCONCLUSIVE.

      Do you actually know what "inconclusive" means?

      Here is a link to the FSS reports from the files.

      Can you find anything at all in these reports which supports the view that the dogs alerted to Madeleine's corpse?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 02:03:54 PM
      Do you actually know what "inconclusive" means?

      Here is a link to the FSS reports from the files.

      Can you find anything at all in these reports which supports the view that the dogs alerted to Madeleine's corpse?

      I do know what inconclusive means.

      The forensic reports did neither confirm or dismiss , that the dogs alerted to a body.

      This is old ground and you are not going to change my views on the case.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 15, 2015, 02:09:34 PM
      I do know what inconclusive means.

      The forensic reports did neither confirm or dismiss , that the dogs alerted to a body.

      This is old ground and you are not going to change my views on the case.

      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

      Here is the link - a challenge. 

      Can you find one thing in the FSS report (upon which you are apparently basing your opinions) that supports the view that the dogs were alerting to Madeleine's corpse?

      Or are you of the "my mind is made up, please do not confuse me with the facts" brigade.  8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 02:24:15 PM
      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

      Here is the link - a challenge. 

      Can you find one thing in the FSS report (upon which you are apparently basing your opinions) that supports the view that the dogs were alerting to Madeleine's corpse?

      Or are you of the "my mind is made up, please do not confuse me with the facts" brigade.  8(0(*

      Perhaps you should read again.

      As to making up your mind, what about you jp ?

      So do you believe she was abducted, when there is no evidence whatsoever to show that she did ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2015, 02:27:40 PM
      It is quite absurd for anyone to suggest that human remains were discovered in the Madeleine McCann case, honestly some people and their semantic games.... ?8)@)-)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 02:31:16 PM
      It is quite absurd for anyone to suggest that human remains were discovered in the Madeleine McCann case, honestly some people and their semantic games.... ?8)@)-)


      It is you and your fellows playing games alfred.

      That's par for the course though.

      Have a good afternoon. 8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 02:42:36 PM
      You mean the FSS sent a report saying:
      Nil.

      Zilch

      Blank.

      Odd that.

      Nothing to report (on what might, or might not have happened to Madeleine).

      No clue.

      Correct.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2015, 02:46:38 PM

      It is you and your fellows playing games alfred.

      That's par for the course though.

      Have a good afternoon. 8((()*/
      What game am I playing?  Is it correct to say that human remains have been discovered in the McCann case?  Seriously?? 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 15, 2015, 02:55:02 PM
      Perhaps you should read again.

      As to making up your mind, what about you jp ?

      So do you believe she was abducted, when there is no evidence whatsoever to show that she did ?

      I do not claim to know what actually happened to her.

      My opinion that she was abducted is based on a number of things.

      If she had died in the apartment, or been murdered by one or more of the tapas 9, then it is very likely there would have been some forensic trace. 

      I have not seen a single forensic report that suggests any untoward event having taken place. 

      Which leaves us with the only possible alternative - that she was taken from the apartment. 

      It is unlikely the McCanns had the opportunity or indeed motive to do so.

      So that leaves abduction.  A crime which does not necessarily leave any forensic trace.  Especially if the entry and exit were by the front door. 

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 02:58:14 PM
      You do not know if human remains/residues were found that indicated a body.

      THE FORENSIC RESULTS WERE INCONCLUSIVE.

      You have stated human remains were found
      On what facts do you base this absurd statement
      If human remains were found the alerts are confimed
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 03:00:09 PM
      You do not know if human remains/residues were found that indicated a body.

      THE FORENSIC RESULTS WERE INCONCLUSIVE.

      Human remains are specifically from a dead person
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 03:15:34 PM
      And your definition confirmed no human remains were found

      What was the DNA taken from?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 03:31:18 PM
      In my opinion it does, and as we know all opinions are equally valid. ?>)()<

      That sounds fair enough to me; so you play to your opinion and I'll play to mine.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 03:39:52 PM
      You mean the FSS sent a report saying:
      Nil.

      Zilch

      Blank.

      Odd that.

      The FSS had as much clue about what might have happened to Madeleine after processing material forwarded to the laboratory as they had before: that is, none.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 15, 2015, 03:56:58 PM
      What was the DNA taken from?

      I thought you were well informed about the background to the case.

      here is the FSS report.

      Enjoy (if that's the right word?)

      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 04:00:32 PM
      The FSS had as much clue about what might have happened to Madeleine after processing material forwarded to the laboratory as they had before: that is, none.

      So by that token they could neither rule anything in nor rule anything out.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 04:07:37 PM
      So by that token they could neither rule anything in nor rule anything out.

      They could rule nothing in.

      They could rule out that anything they analysed progressed the investigation.

      Nothing did.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 04:16:06 PM
      So by that token they could neither rule anything in nor rule anything out.
      so maddie could have been abducted by aliens
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 04:25:10 PM
      What was the DNA taken from?
      unless it is confirmed that the dna was taken from a dead person then it was not from human remains
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 04:44:13 PM
      unless it is confirmed that the dna was taken from a dead person then it was not from human remains

      So?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 04:48:10 PM
      So?

      then Stephen is wrong to say human remains were found
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 04:56:39 PM
      I thought you were well informed about the background to the case.

      here is the FSS report.

      Enjoy (if that's the right word?)

      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id268.html

      I do not believe I ever said that. I just get p****d off with people playing duck and drakes with reports we have all read, by quoting from the body not the conclusions and making inane comments like "I understand it better than you my dad works in the court/police station/hospital/laboratory (delete as necessary)so I should know". So asking questions is always good for a laugh if somewhat like pulling teeth.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2015, 05:15:29 PM
      I do not believe I ever said that. I just get p****d off with people playing duck and drakes with reports we have all read, by quoting from the body not the conclusions and making inane comments like "I understand it better than you my dad works in the court/police station/hospital/laboratory (delete as necessary)so I should know". So asking questions is always good for a laugh if somewhat like pulling teeth.
      What's your opinion of those who quote from the Interim Report to try and make a case for the McCanns' guilt?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 05:33:58 PM
      What's your opinion of those who quote from the Interim Report to try and make a case for the McCanns' guilt?
      Pretty much the same old stick. Likely to come up with the wrong or right answer by accident rather than design if all the info is not available.

      This is Lowes conclusion btw:
      Conclusion
      In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.
      Now that is not too hard to understand is it.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 05:34:45 PM
      then Stephen is wrong to say human remains were found

      So?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 05:52:43 PM
      Pretty much the same old stick. Likely to come up with the wrong or right answer by accident rather than design if all the info is not available.

      This is Lowes conclusion btw:
      Conclusion
      In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.
      Now that is not too hard to understand is it.
      It's easy to understand but as usual posters put different interpretations on it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 05:53:43 PM
      So?

      so it looks like you've given up trying to defend his absurd claim
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 15, 2015, 05:54:37 PM
      Pretty much the same old stick. Likely to come up with the wrong or right answer by accident rather than design if all the info is not available.

      This is Lowes conclusion btw:
      Conclusion
      In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.
      Now that is not too hard to understand is it.
      It doesn't say anything about human remains though does it?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 05:59:57 PM
      So by that token they could neither rule anything in nor rule anything out.

      Lowe says that the partial profile was also a match for many of the scientists in Birmingham......So how significant was the partial match...more how insignificant was it...very
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 06:02:15 PM
      Pretty much the same old stick. Likely to come up with the wrong or right answer by accident rather than design if all the info is not available.

      This is Lowes conclusion btw:
      Conclusion
      In my opinion, the laboratory results that were attained did not help to clarify whether or not the DNA results obtained within the scope of this case were from Madeleine McCann.
      Now that is not too hard to understand is it.

      So the FSS could rule out that anything they analysed progressed the investigation, or provided insight into what might have happened to Madeleine.

      The position was the same before the FSS report as after it.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 07:22:43 PM
      so it looks like you've given up trying to defend his absurd claim

      Was I trying to defend it?
      Or was I doing something else?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 07:23:18 PM
      It doesn't say anything about human remains though does it?

      So?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 07:24:31 PM
      Prior says that the partial profile was also a match for many of the scientists in Birmingham......So how significant was the partial match...more how insignificant was it...very

      Did he?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 07:25:25 PM
      Did he?
      yes
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 07:28:40 PM
      So the FSS could rule out that anything they analysed progressed the investigation, or provided insight into what might have happened to Madeleine.

      The position was the same before the FSS report as after it.

      The position was that from the samples analysed using techniques available at the time the FSS could not say whether MM was a contributor or whether she was not a contributor.
      Why are you dissatisfied with Lowe's own wording in his conclusion? Do you think he is wrong?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 07:30:35 PM
      yes
      I thought Prior was a copper.
      What was his authority for the statement if he made it ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 07:31:53 PM
      Did he?

      The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included.

      John Lowe
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 07:33:09 PM
      I thought Prior was a copper.
      What was his authority for the statement if he made it ?

      John Lowe was the forensic scientist who wrote the FSS report ....

      4th and 5th sections down marked by the dark blue bands:

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JOHN_LOWE.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 07:34:25 PM
      Lowe was a scientist
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 07:36:14 PM
      The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included.

      John Lowe

      many sceptics think this is because the scientists contaminated the sample   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 07:38:39 PM
      many sceptics think this is because the scientists contaminated the sample   @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      Is that where it came from?

      I've often wondered ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 08:31:39 PM
      The position was that from the samples analysed using techniques available at the time the FSS could not say whether MM was a contributor or whether she was not a contributor.
      Why are you dissatisfied with Lowe's own wording in his conclusion? Do you think he is wrong?

      I have no problem with Lowe's wording.

      I merely point out that Lowe was none the wiser after examining the material than he was before.

      So the position is exactly the same as it would have been if the FSS had not examined anything.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 15, 2015, 08:32:46 PM
      The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included.

      John Lowe

      So Davel was incorrect then.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 08:35:54 PM
      So Davel was incorrect then.

      About what?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 09:00:34 PM
      So Davel was incorrect then.

      no..there never were any human remains...Stephen was incorrect...I think Alice was  incorrect too but I lost the will to live after two posts...Lowe was definitely correct whilst amaral was incorrect...if I have remembered correctly...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 15, 2015, 09:01:49 PM
      Is that where it came from?

      I've often wondered ....

      Hardly surprising. If the lab couldn't positively identify the DNA as belonging to Madeleine, then the FSS had to have contaminated it.

      Not much different from if no blood spatters could be found, it had to be because the walls had been bleached. Or satellites had to have been ordered to focus elsewhere...

      The fact that Lowe said no such thing is just a detail...


      Another question was simple: why did the DNA profile from those three donors contribute to Madeleine’s DNA profile and not to that of any other person, like the scientist who carried out the test?

      TOTL

      Interview with Amaral: Porto canal 14 March 2014

      Q: Was there human blood in the car boot and inside the apartment?

      “No doubt. Inside the apartment and in the car boot. That human blood, the English lab even says, there is a report in the process, that says it’s the daughter of – the daughter of Gerald McCann, it’s a descendant of his. Later on, they change the hypothesis, and say that the combination of the DNA may be from anyone. By coincidence, in that case the DNA is very similar, 90% similar to that of Madeleine McCann, but it could be DNA built by myself, by Júlio Magalhães or by you, and then it would result in that DNA profile. But the funny thing is that it results in the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann. It does not result in the DNA profile of Júlio Magalhães, or of Gonçalo Amaral or of Luís Filipe Menezes. Not even in that of the doctor who performed the test.”

      “We have no doubts, and this was discussed even at the level of Portuguese justice, at the level of the Public Ministry, that there was an alteration at the English lab. The data was manipulated. The FSS, the British lab, which was already questioned over several situations, even concerning the IRA in Ireland, over bomb attacks, those traces, that way to find the DNA, to examine the DNA with low copy number, was called into question relating to traces found on a bomb in an Irish case. And that lab was called into question.”

      “But there is a situation, concerning the lab, which has to be taken into account. There are the registers that are performed by the technicians, by the scientists that examine, and we have to look at those registers, at what they wrote. On an everyday basis, as they examined the evidence, the traces that were sent over, what they wrote along. And then we see the result in that report that they sent over to Portugal.”



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 09:24:59 PM
      Key phrase............


      ' In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion. '

      i.e. The results are inconclusive

      Neither affirming or dismissing the presence of Madeleine's D.N.A.


      So the probability of solving the case ???

      NO evidence of abduction.

      Case remains unsolved.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 09:32:02 PM
      Key phrase............


      ' In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion. '

      i.e. The results are inconclusive

      Neither affirming or dismissing the presence of Madeleine's D.N.A.


      So the probability of solving the case ???

      NO evidence of abduction.

      Case remains unsolved.

      I think now you have confirmed the recovery of human remains the case will move forward
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 09:35:35 PM
      No.

      There is no evidence of abduction.

      The case is at ground zero as it was and still is.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 09:35:56 PM
      Key phrase............


      ' In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion. '

      i.e. The results are inconclusive

      Neither affirming or dismissing the presence of Madeleine's D.N.A.


      So the probability of solving the case ???

      NO evidence of abduction.

      Case remains unsolved.

      Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.

      The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation


      (John Lowe)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 09:37:55 PM
      No.

      There is no evidence of abduction.

      The case is at ground zero as it was and still is.

      what are the odds that maddie was abducted..in your opinion
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 09:40:55 PM
      what are the odds that maddie was abducted..in your opinion

      Since you raised the issue before and said on the balance of probability, abduction was most likely, explain how you came to that conclusion.

      With logical facts of course, and not a belief.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 09:47:19 PM
      Since you raised the issue before and said on the balance of probability, abduction was most likely, explain how you came to that conclusion.

      With logical facts of course, and not a belief.

      I've explained it all before...start with parents ruled out
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 09:52:33 PM
      I've explained it all before...start with parents ruled out

      Not sufficient, for reasons given before.

      When you can come up with some logical scenario backed up with evidence, we may have something to discuss.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 09:54:43 PM
      Not sufficient, for reasons given before.

      When you can come up with some logical scenario backed up with evidence, we may have something to discuss.

      tell me where the human remains were found
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 09:57:43 PM
      tell me where the human remains were found

      Try your abduction thesis first.

      I await to read it in the morning before I start work.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 15, 2015, 10:00:15 PM
      Try your abduction thesis first.

      I await to read it in the morning before I start work.

      I wont be explaining it again..SY agree with me...who agrees with you
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 15, 2015, 10:09:27 PM
      I wont be explaining it again..SY agree with me...who agrees with you

      Really ?

      What have they found dave ?

      Madeleine ?

      NO.

      How she has disappeared ?

      NO.

      So let's see what logical reasons and clear cut uneqivocal evidence of abduction there is ?

      Don't bother referring to the other thread again, there is no evidence there.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 15, 2015, 10:18:08 PM
      Really ?

      What have they found dave ?

      Madeleine ?

      NO.

      How she has disappeared ?

      NO.

      So let's see what logical reasons and clear cut uneqivocal evidence of abduction is there ?

      Don't bother referring to the other thread again, there is no evidence there.

      The absence of any credible explanation of anything else.

      Two (possibly relevant) independent witness sightings.

      Unidentified DNA from the apartment.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 15, 2015, 11:02:58 PM
      no..there never were any human remains...Stephen was incorrect...I think Alice was  incorrect too but I lost the will to live after two posts...Lowe was definitely correct whilst amaral was incorrect...if I have remembered correctly...

      You said

      Quote
      Lowe says that the partial profile was also a match for many of the scientists in Birmingham......So how significant was the partial match...more how insignificant was it...very

      Ferryman's quote says elements not partial profile. Very different.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 15, 2015, 11:08:12 PM
      Lowe was a scientist
      How come you bootlegged my original post?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 16, 2015, 07:34:20 AM
      You said

      Ferryman's quote says elements not partial profile. Very different.

      the sample was a soup from 3 different people and contained 15 of maddie's alleles,,,there was no way of knowing if these 15 alleles had come from one person in the group or was a contribution from all three..
      you and others are making far too much of this statement and even if a few cells of maddies dna had been found in the car..so what..

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 16, 2015, 08:18:06 AM
      the sample was a soup from 3 different people and contained 15 of maddie's alleles,,,there was no way of knowing if these 15 alleles had come from one person in the group or was a contribution from all three..
      you and others are making far too much of this statement and even if a few cells of madeleine's dna had been found in the car..so what..

      Precisely, secondary transfer.

      Items of Madeleine's possessions or clothing transported in the vehicle and Madeleine's DNA transfers ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 16, 2015, 08:30:40 AM
      Following a shaving mishap this morning I'm sorry to report that there are human remains all over the bathroom... 8(8-))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 08:38:54 AM
      The absence of any credible explanation of anything else.

      Two (possibly relevant) independent witness sightings.

      Unidentified DNA from the apartment.

      2 possibly relevant sightings ?

      Absence of any other credible explanation ?

      You would hardly say anything else would you ?

      What about the 'Madeleine walking out of the apartment' scenario ?

      Unidentified D.N.A. ?

      Have all the previous occupants and cleaners of the flat been tested ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 08:40:49 AM
      Following a shaving mishap this morning I'm sorry to report that there are human remains all over the bathroom... 8(8-))

      There is an old English joke which I could apply there Alfred, but it might be removed.  8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 16, 2015, 08:41:27 AM
      What about the 'Madeleine walking out of the apartment' scenario ?

      Read Kate's book!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 16, 2015, 08:42:30 AM
      Following a shaving mishap this morning I'm sorry to report that there are human remains all over the bathroom... 8(8-))

       *&*%£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 16, 2015, 08:46:21 AM
      There is an old English joke which I could apply there Alfred, but it might be removed.  8)--))
      There's something rather rude I could say about someone on here being an old English joke but it might be removed too... 8)--))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 08:50:13 AM
      There's something rather rude I could say about someone on here being an old English joke but it might be removed too... 8)--))



      Actually you did refer to me before on here in rather unceremonious terms.

       8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 08:51:25 AM
      What about the 'Madeleine walking out of the apartment' scenario ?

      Read Kate's book!

      Ah, you mean the Mills and Boon special ?  ?{)(**
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Lace on September 16, 2015, 08:56:39 AM
      2 possibly relevant sightings ?

      Absence of any other credible explanation ?

      You would hardly say anything else would you ?

      What about the 'Madeleine walking out of the apartment' scenario ?

      Unidentified D.N.A. ?

      Have all the previous occupants and cleaners of the flat been tested ?


      Didn't you know about the unidentified D.N.A Stephen?

      I would imagine they would have seen if it matched any of the previous occupants and cleaners,  or they wouldn't call it 'unidentified'.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 08:59:25 AM

      Didn't you know about the unidentified D.N.A Stephen?

      I would imagine they would have seen if it matched any of the previous occupants and cleaners,  or they wouldn't call it 'unidentified'.

      Yes, I read the report.

      Have they done that ?

      Have all the people who have been known to be in the apartment been traced ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 16, 2015, 09:13:34 AM


      Actually you did refer to me before on here in rather unceremonious terms.

       8(0(*
      Oh dear, I am sorry.  8(8-))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 16, 2015, 09:25:18 AM
      Ah, you mean the Mills and Boon special ?  ?{)(**

      I wasn't referring to Amaral's book at all ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 09:47:59 AM
      I wasn't referring to Amaral's book at all ...


      Neither was I.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 16, 2015, 09:54:22 AM
      Yes, I read the report.

      Have they done that ?

      Have all the people who have been known to be in the apartment been traced ?

      They didn't bother because they knew the parents were involved
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 16, 2015, 10:05:47 AM


      Actually you did refer to me before on here in rather unceremonious terms.

       8(0(*

      What with that and ferryman and davel tampering with posts (duly reported to admin) it's getting like a bleedin' kindergarten round here.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 16, 2015, 10:21:41 AM

      I did once say, way back in the beginning that DNA wasn't all it was being cracked up to be.  Still isn't, actually.  I was subjected to a torrent of abuse which quite shocked me.  Sadly, I have become accustomed to that now.

      As has been proved in this case, there are too many variables, especially in the absence of a body, which could suggest in itself that there isn't one.

      And even with a 99% match, it still wouldn't prove anything, unless it was from a complete stranger.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 10:37:46 AM
      I did once say, way back in the beginning that DNA wasn't all it was being cracked up to be.  Still isn't, actually.  I was subjected to a torrent of abuse which quite shocked me.  Sadly, I have become accustomed to that now.

      As has been proved in this case, there are too many variables, especially in the absence of a body, which could suggest in itself that there isn't one.

      And even with a 99% match, it still wouldn't prove anything, unless it was from a complete stranger.

      Naturally, as you would expect Eleanor, i disagree with you as regards a body.

      Even Redwood admitted Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive, which then beggars the question of the dogs.

      The sheer fact that no trace of her has been found since that fateful day, adds to the conclusion that she died.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2015, 10:58:05 AM
      What with that and ferryman and davel tampering with posts (duly reported to admin) it's getting like a bleedin' kindergarten round here.

      I think sometimes there is a lot to be learned from various sites on the internet ... quite a few American ones featuring discussion among dog trainers ... one or two discussing criminal cases etc.

      Posters seem to be eager to share information (and yes Madeleine McCann's case does feature) discuss differences and to actually absorb the information given out and once a fact has been established that is it until something new and compelling supersedes what has gone on before.

      **Snip
      ". . . The rapid proliferation of law enforcement and ancillary personnel making widely varied claims about the use of dogs trained to cadaver scent, and the lack of any significant literature on the subject, prompted the authors to research what training and performance requirements might be important for consideration in the use of dogs in the gathering of evidence having forensic importance. . ."

      ". . . Cadaver Dog
      A narrow term, used in a search-and-rescue context, to indicate a canine primarily trained as a tracking or air-scent dog that has also received cross training in the location of dead human bodies.
      Decomp Dog
      A term used to describe a canine that will indicate when a scent source is human tissue, blood, semen, urine, feces, and materials that have been handled and worn by humans; often cross trained for other purposes.
      Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
      A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue. . ."

      ". . .There is dispute within the scientific community about what it actually is that an animal scents that allows differentiation. Some researchers maintain that bacterial action on biological material results in an outgassing of volatile fatty acids, methane, urea, cadaverine, and various ionic compounds.
      -3 Others believe that individual recognition occurs by differentiation at the level of the major histocompatability complex (MHC) which causes unique protein markers to form on the surface of cells.
      -4 In any case, some form of chemical marking occurs that probably has evolutionary and organism-survival significance. . . ."
      (Note: The following exerpt was 3 points out of 7 total. All need to be read. Only 3 were quoted so as to not be quoting too much material in keeping with the WS TOS.)
      ". . . Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions:
      Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue;
      precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent.
      Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc.
      Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert. . ."

      ". . . 1) There is a significant potential for a dog handler to offer unintentionally misleading or improper testimony about the presence or absence of residual scent from decomposed human tissue.
      2) Dogs specifically trained to detect scent of decomposed human tissue can be invaluable in resolving issues related to evidence gathering and determination of investigative direction.
      It is crucial, however, that dogs be used in situations appropriate to their training level, and that dog handlers are able to support their testimony about dog behavior with accurate training logs.
      Any canine used for forensic purposes in the location of the scent of decomposed human tissue should never be cross-trained for any other type of scent work if the results of the animal's activities and handler's opinions are to be used for the development of probable cause.
      3) Existing training and testing techniques in the general community of handlers now working do not address the specific and rigorous training needs for dogs that are expected to reliably detect and alert on residual scent. . ."
      http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
      http://www.k9forensic.org/AAFSpaper.html

      What happened as far as the dogs Eddie and Keela are concerned in 2007 ... must be frozen in 2007: nothing of importance was gleaned from their 'alerts' and much of what was gleaned was misinterpreted.

      So perhaps if posters would take cognisance of what evidence there is from 2007 and recognise that constant discussion and trying to change what cannot be changed by constant revisiting it ... we could all move on and have adult non-repetitive discussion on the subject.
      Which is actually quite a fascinating one if followed with an open mind.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 11:05:00 AM
      I think sometimes there is a lot to be learned from various sites on the internet ... quite a few American ones featuring discussion among dog trainers ... one or two discussing criminal cases etc.

      Posters seem to be eager to share information (and yes Madeleine McCann's case does feature) discuss differences and to actually absorb the information given out and once a fact has been established that is it until something new and compelling supersedes what has gone on before.

      **Snip
      ". . . The rapid proliferation of law enforcement and ancillary personnel making widely varied claims about the use of dogs trained to cadaver scent, and the lack of any significant literature on the subject, prompted the authors to research what training and performance requirements might be important for consideration in the use of dogs in the gathering of evidence having forensic importance. . ."

      ". . . Cadaver Dog
      A narrow term, used in a search-and-rescue context, to indicate a canine primarily trained as a tracking or air-scent dog that has also received cross training in the location of dead human bodies.
      Decomp Dog
      A term used to describe a canine that will indicate when a scent source is human tissue, blood, semen, urine, feces, and materials that have been handled and worn by humans; often cross trained for other purposes.
      Forensic Search Dog (The primary focus of this paper)
      A canine that has been specifically trained to indicate a scent source as being from decomposed human tissue. Such animals are also trained to exclude (deconditioned to) the scent of human urine, feces, and semen and will not alert on residual scent from a live human; and have never been trained to locate any scent other than that of decomposed human tissue. . ."

      ". . .There is dispute within the scientific community about what it actually is that an animal scents that allows differentiation. Some researchers maintain that bacterial action on biological material results in an outgassing of volatile fatty acids, methane, urea, cadaverine, and various ionic compounds.
      -3 Others believe that individual recognition occurs by differentiation at the level of the major histocompatability complex (MHC) which causes unique protein markers to form on the surface of cells.
      -4 In any case, some form of chemical marking occurs that probably has evolutionary and organism-survival significance. . . ."
      (Note: The following exerpt was 3 points out of 7 total. All need to be read. Only 3 were quoted so as to not be quoting too much material in keeping with the WS TOS.)
      ". . . Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions:
      Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue;
      precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent.
      Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc.
      Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert. . ."

      ". . . 1) There is a significant potential for a dog handler to offer unintentionally misleading or improper testimony about the presence or absence of residual scent from decomposed human tissue.
      2) Dogs specifically trained to detect scent of decomposed human tissue can be invaluable in resolving issues related to evidence gathering and determination of investigative direction.
      It is crucial, however, that dogs be used in situations appropriate to their training level, and that dog handlers are able to support their testimony about dog behavior with accurate training logs.
      Any canine used for forensic purposes in the location of the scent of decomposed human tissue should never be cross-trained for any other type of scent work if the results of the animal's activities and handler's opinions are to be used for the development of probable cause.
      3) Existing training and testing techniques in the general community of handlers now working do not address the specific and rigorous training needs for dogs that are expected to reliably detect and alert on residual scent. . ."
      http://www.csst.org/forensic_evidence_canines.html
      http://www.k9forensic.org/AAFSpaper.html

      What happened as far as the dogs Eddie and Keela are concerned in 2007 ... must be frozen in 2007: nothing of importance was gleaned from their 'alerts' and much of what was gleaned was misinterpreted.

      So perhaps if posters would take cognisance of what evidence there is from 2007 and recognise that constant discussion and trying to change what cannot be changed by constant revisiting it ... we could all move on and have adult non-repetitive discussion on the subject.
      Which is actually quite a fascinating one if followed with an open mind.

      '...with an open mind......'  ?

      An open mind doesn't mean considering just one possibility.

      So how about the scenario of Madeleine getting out of the apartment by herself, which some people view as a distinct possibility ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 16, 2015, 11:05:53 AM
      Naturally, as you would expect Eleanor, i disagree with you as regards a body.

      Even Redwood admitted Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive, which then beggars the question of the dogs.

      The sheer fact that no trace of her has been found since that fateful day, adds to the conclusion that she died.

      Just two sides of the same coin, Stephen.  Is Madeleine dead, or isn't she?  Neither of us know.  And neither Amaral or Eddie have proved anything.
      I just go on hoping, while you don't.  It's just the sort of person that I am.  I truly do wake up every morning hoping that Madeleine has been found alive, and then I get on with my hopeful day.

      And No, I do not think that you are a bad person because you don't hope for this.  The operative word being Hope.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 16, 2015, 11:15:09 AM
      RESIDUAL SCENT IN BUILDINGS

      One of the questions we are commonly asked as forensic canine handlers is "How long will scent last in any given situation?" This is a very complicated question, but we want to begin to unravel the secrets. We know some of the elements that will affect residual scent are heat/sun, wind, humidity and rain.

      Our first project was conducted in a closed, unused building. Items were placed in different rooms for 5 hours and then removed.

      What is Residual Scent?
      Residual is defined by Webster's dictionary as - leaving a residue remaining effective for some time.
      Within this paper we are using the term in conjunction with decomposing human scent. Residual scent searches are those conducted when no physical form is present. Residual scent is what is left when the decomposing item has been removed. It is something we cannot see and humans cannot necessarily smell.

      Introduction
      This project began by accident, so was not preplanned as a residual scent research paper. We make no claims to having ruled out all variables, but are using this project to learn what the variables are and how to more effectively set up our next residual scent project.

      Our goal in this paper is to look at residual scent in a closed, unused building and see if we can find out how long a trained cadaver / forensic evidence dog can locate the original scent location. All the dogs used in this project ranged from those with some basic training in the finding of cadaver scent to specialized trained dogs in forensic evidence / body recovery. We see this as just the beginning of ongoing residual scent undertakings.

      On November 9, 1996 several items were placed in different areas of a building. The building used was built in the 1930's and was used as classrooms up until 1995. It is part of a large developmental hospital that was built before 1900. Most of the furniture is now gone. There is still human clothing around, chairs, desks, shelves with things on them, wardrobes, curtains, and boxes of books and general effects. The facility has been closed down and most of the buildings are scheduled to be demolished.

      Room #11 was used as an activity or day room. It is a large open room. The scent sources were blood (3cc) left to dry on the floor and door in the room.
      Room #16 is a closet/storage room off room #11. The scent source was blood (approx. 1cc) on paper on the floor.
      Room #5 is a large storage room with closets and shelves. The scent source was a soil sample with dried fluids from a gunshot to the head suicide enclosed in a 50ml vented container. The upper window has been open the whole time in this room.
      Room #18 is a large living room. Scent sources were; hair mixed with cadaver scent in the fireplace flue, and a very small amount of blood inside a trash can.
      Room #9 is a tiled utility area across the hall from a kitchen area. Scent source was hair and blood in a 50ml container placed in the foot of standing ironing board, so the sample was 5 feet off the ground.

      Since the original set up date on November 9, 1996, we have returned to the building 4 times: January 8, 1997, April 2, 1997, July 23, 1997 and December 7, 1997. On our visit in April we found that they had removed most of the original furniture and some boxes of trash, so the building had little left in it. Two of the objects (the ironing board and a box of trash), that had held scent sources were now missing.

      Results
      Each dog participating in this project was able to find most or all of the locations where the decomposing scent articles had been. We saw dogs, which varied, from full alert and pinpointing to general interest in the room or area.

      What we have found so far is; residual scent will last 1 year in a building with minimum environmental influence, or human disturbance. Even after the objects where the scent source had been were removed, the dogs were able to locate the rooms, general area, or pinpoint where it had been.

      Each time we have worked the problem we have included teams that had not worked the area before. We now have had 16 teams work the residual scent problem. The dogs have ranged from veteran cadaver trained certified teams to 1 year old puppies (who have been training from 8 weeks of age on cadaver and residual scent).

      Observations
      We noticed that there was a big difference between teams that do mainly live person searching and teams that specialize in forensic evidence / body recovery searches. The general difference being, forensic evidence / body recovery dogs are searched slower, have been taught to do a fine search, check items for scent sources, and alert without seeing an object. Most live human search dogs are trained to keep looking until they find the person and then to alert. Younger and less experienced dogs had fewer problems and were willing to commit to an alert more readily than some of the mainly live human search dogs.

      Questions, Variables, Problems, Future Ideas
      One of the questions that we have wondered about after observing dogs who have worked the problem prior is; do the dogs remember where items were previously placed or where they alerted before and how long do they remember?

      Also, what effect does having an observer that is knowledgeable of all the locations have on the team? Can the handler and or dog read body language that gives them information as to where they should look or alert?

      Plans for our next visit include having first time teams work the building by themselves without an observer on deck. The handler will then report any alerts or interest to the observer by showing them on a diagram of the building. This way the handler will have to commit to what the dog has done without any input from the observer. The observer will not be able to influence the team while they are searching.

      No food reward will be allowed in the building.

      Our next residual scent projects will employ measurable scent items. Example: 3cc of blood mixed with 2oz of human hair, or a specific human bone. This way we can control and repeat the scent items more closely in different conditions.

      Room with the blood (3cc) is not a true residual scent problem, as we have defined it, because the blood has been left on the floor and door. But we now have data on how long dogs can locate dried blood.

      Our next step in studying residual scent is to set up problems in different environments. We want to compare our results with problems set up in open areas, areas with sun and shade and no building to protect the scent.

      Room #11 - dried blood - dogs able to show dried blood on door and floor

      Room #5 - soil with dried fluids - dog showing
      inside closet where source had been

      Room #18 - Hair with scent - all dogs indicated
      flue area of chimney where source had been

      Room #18 - area where trash can had been - dogs all indicated
      area and showed pile of curtains now on floor but had been
      hanging above trash can originally. Curtains are porous and
      holding scent.

      http://www.csst.org/residual_scent.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 16, 2015, 11:20:44 AM
      '...with an open mind......'  ?

      An open mind doesn't mean considering just one possibility.

      So how about the scenario of Madeleine getting out of the apartment by herself, which some people view as a distinct possibility ?

      Do you honestly think that I, let alone the rest of those of my thinking, have not considered other possibilities, even that of The McCanns being involved in some way?
      Of course we have, down to the very last boring detail.  But it simply does not make sense.  The time, the place, the opportunity, or the motive.  And the absence of anything in the work of forensics to suggest this.

      Whether or not Madeleine died by the hand of a stranger is something that I don't want to think about.  And why should I?  It isn't the purpose of this Forum at the moment.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 11:20:47 AM
      Now you see, this is an example of a grown-up sensible post, it will be interesting to read Alice and Stephen's grown-up and sensible replies.

      Brietta's post merely reflects the only scenario is 'abduction' approach.

      Perhaps you should take time yet again to consider what you post before the insults fly once again.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 16, 2015, 11:22:48 AM

      Okay.  No insults, Please.  We are all capable of discussion without them.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 11:23:15 AM
      Do you honestly think that I, let alone the rest of those of my thinking, have not considered other possibilities, even that of The McCanns being involved in some way?
      Of course we have, down to the very last boring detail.  But it simply does not make sense.  The time, the place, the opportunity, or the motive.  And the absence of anything in the work of forensics to suggest this.

      Whether or not Madeleine died by the hand of a stranger is something that I don't want to think about.  And why should I?  It isn't the purpose of this Forum at the moment.

      Well that works two ways.

      There is nothing in the forensics to suggest abduction.

      As to the inconsistencies in the mccanns and others accounts of events, well I'll leave that to another time.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 16, 2015, 11:23:50 AM
      Brietta's post merely reflects the only scenario is 'abduction' approach.

      Perhaps you should take time yet again to consider what you post before the insults fly once again.
      Brietta's post didn't mention abduction once as far as I can see.  Why don't you actually read it and comment on what it says, rather than what you think it says?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 11:24:45 AM
      Brietta's post didn't mention abduction once as far as I can see.  Why don't you actually read it and comment on what it says, rather than what you think it says?

      It is well known on this forum, that abduction is the only scenario she agrees with.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 16, 2015, 11:28:15 AM

      I am going to start deleting if this continues.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 16, 2015, 11:32:01 AM
      It is well known on this forum, that abduction is the only scenario she agrees with.
      Yes it is, just as your views on abduction are well known too.  Putting that aside for a minute what specifically in Brietta's post did you have a problem with?  Let's discuss that, not Brietta herself!
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2015, 11:33:49 AM
      RESIDUAL SCENT IN BUILDINGS

      One of the questions we are commonly asked as forensic canine handlers is "How long will scent last in any given situation?" This is a very complicated question, but we want to begin to unravel the secrets. We know some of the elements that will affect residual scent are heat/sun, wind, humidity and rain.

      Our first project was conducted in a closed, unused building. Items were placed in different rooms for 5 hours and then removed.

      What is Residual Scent?
      Residual is defined by Webster's dictionary as - leaving a residue remaining effective for some time.
      Within this paper we are using the term in conjunction with decomposing human scent. Residual scent searches are those conducted when no physical form is present. Residual scent is what is left when the decomposing item has been removed. It is something we cannot see and humans cannot necessarily smell.

      Introduction
      This project began by accident, so was not preplanned as a residual scent research paper. We make no claims to having ruled out all variables, but are using this project to learn what the variables are and how to more effectively set up our next residual scent project.

      Our goal in this paper is to look at residual scent in a closed, unused building and see if we can find out how long a trained cadaver / forensic evidence dog can locate the original scent location. All the dogs used in this project ranged from those with some basic training in the finding of cadaver scent to specialized trained dogs in forensic evidence / body recovery. We see this as just the beginning of ongoing residual scent undertakings.

      On November 9, 1996 several items were placed in different areas of a building. The building used was built in the 1930's and was used as classrooms up until 1995. It is part of a large developmental hospital that was built before 1900. Most of the furniture is now gone. There is still human clothing around, chairs, desks, shelves with things on them, wardrobes, curtains, and boxes of books and general effects. The facility has been closed down and most of the buildings are scheduled to be demolished.

      Room #11 was used as an activity or day room. It is a large open room. The scent sources were blood (3cc) left to dry on the floor and door in the room.
      Room #16 is a closet/storage room off room #11. The scent source was blood (approx. 1cc) on paper on the floor.
      Room #5 is a large storage room with closets and shelves. The scent source was a soil sample with dried fluids from a gunshot to the head suicide enclosed in a 50ml vented container. The upper window has been open the whole time in this room.
      Room #18 is a large living room. Scent sources were; hair mixed with cadaver scent in the fireplace flue, and a very small amount of blood inside a trash can.
      Room #9 is a tiled utility area across the hall from a kitchen area. Scent source was hair and blood in a 50ml container placed in the foot of standing ironing board, so the sample was 5 feet off the ground.

      Since the original set up date on November 9, 1996, we have returned to the building 4 times: January 8, 1997, April 2, 1997, July 23, 1997 and December 7, 1997. On our visit in April we found that they had removed most of the original furniture and some boxes of trash, so the building had little left in it. Two of the objects (the ironing board and a box of trash), that had held scent sources were now missing.

      Results
      Each dog participating in this project was able to find most or all of the locations where the decomposing scent articles had been. We saw dogs, which varied, from full alert and pinpointing to general interest in the room or area.

      What we have found so far is; residual scent will last 1 year in a building with minimum environmental influence, or human disturbance. Even after the objects where the scent source had been were removed, the dogs were able to locate the rooms, general area, or pinpoint where it had been.

      Each time we have worked the problem we have included teams that had not worked the area before. We now have had 16 teams work the residual scent problem. The dogs have ranged from veteran cadaver trained certified teams to 1 year old puppies (who have been training from 8 weeks of age on cadaver and residual scent).

      Observations
      We noticed that there was a big difference between teams that do mainly live person searching and teams that specialize in forensic evidence / body recovery searches. The general difference being, forensic evidence / body recovery dogs are searched slower, have been taught to do a fine search, check items for scent sources, and alert without seeing an object. Most live human search dogs are trained to keep looking until they find the person and then to alert. Younger and less experienced dogs had fewer problems and were willing to commit to an alert more readily than some of the mainly live human search dogs.

      Questions, Variables, Problems, Future Ideas
      One of the questions that we have wondered about after observing dogs who have worked the problem prior is; do the dogs remember where items were previously placed or where they alerted before and how long do they remember?

      Also, what effect does having an observer that is knowledgeable of all the locations have on the team? Can the handler and or dog read body language that gives them information as to where they should look or alert?

      Plans for our next visit include having first time teams work the building by themselves without an observer on deck. The handler will then report any alerts or interest to the observer by showing them on a diagram of the building. This way the handler will have to commit to what the dog has done without any input from the observer. The observer will not be able to influence the team while they are searching.

      No food reward will be allowed in the building.

      Our next residual scent projects will employ measurable scent items. Example: 3cc of blood mixed with 2oz of human hair, or a specific human bone. This way we can control and repeat the scent items more closely in different conditions.

      Room with the blood (3cc) is not a true residual scent problem, as we have defined it, because the blood has been left on the floor and door. But we now have data on how long dogs can locate dried blood.

      Our next step in studying residual scent is to set up problems in different environments. We want to compare our results with problems set up in open areas, areas with sun and shade and no building to protect the scent.

      Room #11 - dried blood - dogs able to show dried blood on door and floor

      Room #5 - soil with dried fluids - dog showing
      inside closet where source had been

      Room #18 - Hair with scent - all dogs indicated
      flue area of chimney where source had been

      Room #18 - area where trash can had been - dogs all indicated
      area and showed pile of curtains now on floor but had been
      hanging above trash can originally. Curtains are porous and
      holding scent.

      http://www.csst.org/residual_scent.html

      Given that the actual dimensions of the rooms are not recorded the closest equivalent to the bedroom in apartment 5A would be ...
      "Room #16 is a closet/storage room off room #11. The scent source was blood (approx. 1cc) on paper on the floor."

      Even that is supposition as no window or other source of ventilation is mentioned in the study.

      In the study the rooms remained undisturbed;  apartment 5A was the hub of activity for other holidaymakers with cleaners during and between visits and the possibility of the patio doors being opened regularly.

      But definitely a good article demonstrating the type of information to be gained from quantifiable and known sources using the dogs' nose.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 16, 2015, 12:04:04 PM
      Given that the actual dimensions of the rooms are not recorded the closest equivalent to the bedroom in apartment 5A would be ...
      "Room #16 is a closet/storage room off room #11. The scent source was blood (approx. 1cc) on paper on the floor."

      Even that is supposition as no window or other source of ventilation is mentioned in the study.

      In the study the rooms remained undisturbed;  apartment 5A was the hub of activity for other holidaymakers with cleaners during and between visits and the possibility of the patio doors being opened regularly.

      But definitely a good article demonstrating the type of information to be gained from quantifiable and known sources using the dogs' nose.

      Dogs detect residual scent and Eddie was an expert at detecting cadaver residual scent. SY are using the dogs so I know what they think so who cares what you think.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 16, 2015, 12:05:15 PM
      Given that the actual dimensions of the rooms are not recorded the closest equivalent to the bedroom in apartment 5A would be ...
      "Room #16 is a closet/storage room off room #11. The scent source was blood (approx. 1cc) on paper on the floor."

      Even that is supposition as no window or other source of ventilation is mentioned in the study.

      In the study the rooms remained undisturbed;  apartment 5A was the hub of activity for other holidaymakers with cleaners during and between visits and the possibility of the patio doors being opened regularly.

      But definitely a good article demonstrating the type of information to be gained from quantifiable and known sources using the dogfs' nose.

      So how long would we expect scent in the flower bed to last
      Not 3 months
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 16, 2015, 12:39:20 PM
      So how long would we expect scent in the flower bed to last
      Not 3 months

      Do you mean within the plants and/or soil ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2015, 01:01:02 PM
      Dogs detect residual scent and Eddie was an expert at detecting cadaver residual scent. SY are using the dogs so I know what they think so who cares what you think.

      We are told how 'expert' Eddie was at detecting residual scent ... but have we ever seen any record of the continual training exercises which are necessary to substantiate that assertion.

      I am not making reference to Mrs Harron or Mr Rose ... I am making reference to the independently adjudged 'qualifications' which were produced in court to support Morse's nose.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 16, 2015, 01:52:46 PM
      Do you mean within the plants and/or soil ?


      Surely the residue that was deposited would degrade in the soil
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 16, 2015, 02:40:43 PM
      I did once say, way back in the beginning that DNA wasn't all it was being cracked up to be.  Still isn't, actually.  I was subjected to a torrent of abuse which quite shocked me.  Sadly, I have become accustomed to that now.

      As has been proved in this case, there are too many variables, especially in the absence of a body, which could suggest in itself that there isn't one.

      And even with a 99% match, it still wouldn't prove anything, unless it was from a complete stranger.

      A 99% match would be mathematically impossible.

      There are 20 markers, so 19 markers (out of 20) would be 95%, the higest possible score short of 100%
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 16, 2015, 02:58:47 PM
      A 99% match would be mathematically impossible.

      There are 20 markers, so 19 markers (out of 20) would be 95%, the higest possible score short of 100%

      So other people could have the same DNA.  Unlikely in the same vicinity, but not impossible.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 16, 2015, 03:27:10 PM
      So other people could have the same DNA.  Unlikely in the same vicinity, but not impossible.

      I've always found it a little odd that there could be 7 other people in the world wandering around with the same 20 alleles as me. But in the UK, they only look at 10 marker areas (20 alleles) for criminal forensic purposes, unless they've added more since I blinked. So change where the test is done (i.e. a country that uses more marker sites) and that likelihood diminishes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 16, 2015, 04:47:18 PM
      So other people could have the same DNA.  Unlikely in the same vicinity, but not impossible.

      Yes, and when there is, in the mix, likely to be DNA of up to 4 other people direct blood relatives (parents plus two siblings) the likelihood of a high number of alike markers is substabtially increased.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2015, 05:01:35 PM


      Pity though you can't be bothered to discuss anything at all about dogs and where Mr Amaral went a bit off track because of his misunderstanding not just of them but of DNA evidence.
      Is that for the reason stated ... or is it really because you are unable to counter the argument?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 16, 2015, 06:22:49 PM
      Yes, and when there is, in the mix, likely to be DNA of up to 4 other people direct blood relatives (parents plus two siblings) the likelihood of a high number of alike markers is substabtially increased.

      Three to four totally unrelated strangers could easily share the same alleles between them, let alone relatives.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 16, 2015, 08:07:05 PM
      I've always found it a little odd that there could be 7 other people in the world wandering around with the same 20 alleles as me. But in the UK, they only look at 10 marker areas (20 alleles) for criminal forensic purposes, unless they've added more since I blinked. So change where the test is done (i.e. a country that uses more marker sites) and that likelihood diminishes.

      Ah!

      Markers and alleles!

      I'm not sure how many brain-cells I've destroyed trying to work out the difference between the two, but it's far too many ...

      Carana knows ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 16, 2015, 10:24:16 PM
      so the dogs alerts are meaningless...Maddie was abducted but SY are on the case...and SY have decalred the McCanns innocent
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 17, 2015, 12:50:34 AM
      Ah!

      Markers and alleles!

      I'm not sure how many brain-cells I've destroyed trying to work out the difference between the two, but it's far too many ...

      Carana knows ...

      Did you manage to figure it out? Do share if you have, if not, perhaps Carana can.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 12:53:46 AM
      Dogs detect residual scent and Eddie was an expert at detecting cadaver residual scent. SY are using the dogs so I know what they think so who cares what you think.

      Dogs in the present enquiry have been handled very differently from the way dogs in the shelved enquiry were handled ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 07:38:49 AM
      As a reminder.........

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

      http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm


      UNDISPUTED FACTS.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 07:42:37 AM
      As a reminder.........

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

      http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm




      UNDISPUTED FACTS.

      As I have said before the sceptics such as you do not understand the evidence...what you are claiming simply isn't true
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 07:49:45 AM
      As I have said before the sceptics such as you do not understand the evidence...what you are claiming simply isn't true

      They are from the Portuguese Court judgement which you liked so much.

      Unfortunately, you can't cherry pick which ones you dislike as being untrue.

      UNDISPUTED FACTS.

      Why didn't the mccanns dispute these points in court ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 08:07:27 AM
      IT would be interesting to know who else thinks these are proven facts..or is Stephen totally on his own
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 08:11:44 AM
      IT would be interesting to know who else thinks these are proven facts..or is Stephen totally on his own

      Well the mccanns will have the right to dispute the undisputed facts in the appeal.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 08:30:33 AM
      Page 08

      Moreover, as evidenced in the copy of pp. 2158 and 2159 ("reqto" of the claimants of January 23, 2015), the referred claimants own since July 16, 2010 a decision of the same court for the minor Madeleine to tale part in the action against the four defendants.

      These data being present, the irregularity of the representation detected in accordance with the article 29° of the Civil Procedure Code will be deemed remedied and therefore reject the objection raised by the defendant Gonçalo Amaral.

      *

      The assumptions of timely appreciated instance remain valid, not befalling nor subsisting exceptions, annulments or previous issues that could prevent the appreciation of the merits of the case.

      *

      PROVED FACTS

      Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :

      1. The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

      2. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      3. The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      4. The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      5. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

       http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 08:33:55 AM
      They are from the Portuguese Court judgement which you liked so much.

      Unfortunately, you can't cherry pick which ones you dislike as being untrue.

      UNDISPUTED FACTS.

      Why didn't the mccanns dispute these points in court ?

      If those were undisputed facts the McCanns, at the very least, would have lost the libel trial, at most probable, would now be in a Portuguese jail.

      They are not in jail and they won the libel trial.

      Hence those are not undisputed facts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 08:34:39 AM
      Page 08

      Moreover, as evidenced in the copy of pp. 2158 and 2159 ("reqto" of the claimants of January 23, 2015), the referred claimants own since July 16, 2010 a decision of the same court for the minor Madeleine to tale part in the action against the four defendants.

      These data being present, the irregularity of the representation detected in accordance with the article 29° of the Civil Procedure Code will be deemed remedied and therefore reject the objection raised by the defendant Gonçalo Amaral.

      *

      The assumptions of timely appreciated instance remain valid, not befalling nor subsisting exceptions, annulments or previous issues that could prevent the appreciation of the merits of the case.

      *

      PROVED FACTS

      Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :

      1. The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

      2. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      3. The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      4. The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      5. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

       http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm

      the facts are not proven...you are wrong...this has been discussed before..Carana can no doubt explain it better than me....the whole sceptic movement is based on lies such as this
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 08:35:39 AM
      the facts are not proven...you are wrong...this has been discussed before..Carana can no doubt explain it better than me....the whole sceptic movement is based on lies such as this

      FROM THE COURT FILES.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 08:37:19 AM
      If those were undisputed facts the McCanns, at the very least, would have lost the libel trial, at most probable, would now be in a Portuguese jail.

      They are not in jail and they won the libel trial.

      Hence those are not undisputed facts.

      The mccanns failed to prove many points.

      Are you calling these pages from court files a fabrication ferryman  ?

      Be very careful if you are.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 08:41:27 AM
      FROM THE COURT FILES.

      Probably from Anne Guides, who also brought us that Alan Pike portrayed himself as a psychiatrist.

      Alan Pike never did ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 08:44:13 AM
      Probably from Anne Guides, who also brought us that Alan Pike portrayed himself as a psychiatrist.

      Alan Pike never did ....

      Wrong.

      So are you telling me these pages are fabricated ?

      YES or NO ?

      and therefore are you accusing me of supplying fabricated documents, because if you are,  be prepared to back yourself up.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 08:46:13 AM
      Wrong.

      So are you telling me these pages are fabricated ?

      YES or NO ?

      and therefore are you accusing me of supplying fabricated documents, because if you are,  be prepared to back yourself up.

      Just read the files, Stephen ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 08:49:03 AM
      Just read the files, Stephen ....

      I have read the court documents.

      Have you ?

      Now are you calling these court documents FABRICATED, YES or NO ?



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 08:59:30 AM
      I have read the court documents.

      Have you ?

      Now are you calling these court documents FABRICATED, YES or NO ?

      During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

      Mark Harrison.

      I would suggest you take up what you quote with Anne Guides ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 09:01:01 AM
      During the searches two Police dogs were deployed and although it has been stated that no physical remains were located in the area these dogs did give indications in several areas. These areas have been subject to a separate forensic examination that is beyond the scope of this report and at the time of writing laboratory tests are being undertaken. The dogs’ handler has submitted a separate report regarding the performance of the dogs (see appendix 4). However, it must be stated any such indications without any physical evidence to support them can not have any evidential value, being unconfirmed indications. Additionally I consider no inference can be drawn as to whether a human cadaver has previously been in any location without other supporting physical evidence.

      Mark Harrison.

      I would suggest you take up what you quote with Anne Guides ....

      IRRELEVANT.

      Now the court files, FABRICATED, YES or NO ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 17, 2015, 09:04:03 AM
      The use of the expression "deluded" is insulting and should not be used. Uses will attract penalties.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 09:13:08 AM


      I repeat that if what you quote were true, the McCanns would be in jail.

      At the very least, they would have lost the libel trial.

      They are not in jail

      They were not charged

      They won the libel trial

      There was no cadaver scent, 'proved' or otherwise ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 09:16:25 AM
      I repeat that if what you quote were true, the McCanns would be in jail.

      At the very least, they would have lost the libel trial.

      They are not in jail

      They were not charged

      They won the libel trial

      There was no cadaver scent, 'proved' or otherwise ....

      So you are calling the court documents fabricated.

      Now back up your claim.

      The documents are in black and white.

      Likewise the mccanns DID NOT PROVE all their claims.

      Do you think people on here and elsewhere cannot read the documents for themselves ?

      You only want to read what suits your view.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 09:17:51 AM
      In fact, it doesn't even say "cadaver scent"; it says cadaver.

      Whose body was found?

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 09:19:44 AM
      I repeat that if what you quote were true, the McCanns would be in jail.

      At the very least, they would have lost the libel trial.

      They are not in jail

      They were not charged

      They won the libel trial

      There was no cadaver scent, 'proved' or otherwise ....

      The mccanns were not on trial in Portugal, were they ?

      They 'won' one small section of the libel trial, which is now subject to appeal.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 09:20:50 AM
      In fact, it doesn't even say "cadaver scent"; it says cadaver.

      Whose body was found?

      Pathetic.

      You can't back up your claim, can you ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 09:21:07 AM
      The mccanns were not on trial in Portugal, were they ?

      They 'won' one small section of the libel trial, which is now subject to appeal.

      Whose body was found?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 09:27:00 AM
      Whose body was found?

      BACK UP YOUR CLAIM OR WITHDRAW IT.

      However, first read the court judgement.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 09:32:31 AM
      BACK UP YOUR CLAIM OR WITHDRAW IT.

      However, first read the court judgement.

      You back up yours.

      Where, in the files (apart from Almeida) is there an assertion of "proven" cadaver scent.

      Where does Grime say anything about "proven" cadaver scent?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 09:34:55 AM
      You back up yours.

      Where, in the files (apart from Almeida) is there an assertion of "proven" cadaver scent.

      Where does Grime say anything about "proven" cadaver scent?

      I don't need to ferryman.

      What counts in law, is the court judgement.

      NOTHING ELSE.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 09:35:30 AM
      I don't need to ferryman.

      What counts in law, is the court judgement.

      NOTHING ELSE.

      No it's not.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 17, 2015, 09:39:01 AM

      Okay.  That's enough.  All future posts in this vein will be deleted.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 17, 2015, 09:39:48 AM
      Any help?

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5927.msg218559#msg218559
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 17, 2015, 09:44:35 AM
      Okay.  That's enough.  All future posts in this vein will be deleted.

      Sorry, Eleanor. You were quicker than me and I missed your post. Please delete my post if you wish.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 17, 2015, 09:53:53 AM
      Sorry, Eleanor. You were quicker than me and I missed your post. Please delete my post if you wish.

      No, I think that rounds it off more than adequately, Anna.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 17, 2015, 10:17:00 AM
      Page 08
      (snipped)

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

       http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm

      I presume they are referring to the 2 occasions when both dogs alerted in the same place and swabs were obtained  -  (the key fob in the car and behind the settee in 5a)

      Didn't they know that like Keela -  Eddie would also alert to blood?   IIRC on both occasions it was concluded that it was blood that both dogs had alerted to. 

      Why didn't they claim that Eddie had alerted to 'cadaver' in all the other places where he barked as 'indisputed facts'?

      IMO they appear to have interpreted the alerts which they do mention -  as being alerts by Eddie to a dead body - which were then confirmed by Keela's alert to blood at the same place.      As we know because Eddie also alerted to blood - that interpretation (if that is what it was) cannot be claimed as a fact.






      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 10:22:57 AM
      I presume they are referring to the 2 occasions when both dogs alerted in the same place and swabs were obtained  -  (the key fob in the car and behind the settee in 5a)

      Didn't they know that like Keela -  Eddie would also alert to blood?   IIRC on both occasions it was concluded that it was blood that both dogs had alerted to. 

      Why didn't they claim that Eddie had alerted to 'cadaver' in all the other places where he barked as 'indisputed facts'?

      IMO they appear to have interpreted the alerts which they do mention -  as being alerts by Eddie to a dead body - which were then confirmed by Keela's alert to blood at the same place.      As we know because Eddie also alerted to blood - that interpretation (if that is what it was) cannot be claimed as a fact.

      I am sorry Benice, but your opinion is not relevant.

      Have you read through the entirety of the court judgement from Portugal ?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 17, 2015, 10:25:26 AM
      Did you manage to figure it out? Do share if you have, if not, perhaps Carana can.

      There's a thread on the DNA "misunderstanding" somewhere, which I can't find for the moment. In the meantime...

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5498.100
      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2123.50
      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2123.25
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 10:30:15 AM
      I am sorry Benice, but your opinion is not relevant.

      Have you read through the entirety of the court judgement from Portugal ?

      the entire judgement is not available...what you are quoting is out of context and does not mean what you think...you have been duped...back later
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 10:36:43 AM
      the entire judgement is not available...what you are quoting is out of context and does not mean what you think...you have been duped...back later

      Incorrect.

      Read all the judgement.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 17, 2015, 10:37:03 AM
      As a reminder.........

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

      http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm


      UNDISPUTED FACTS.

      I think I see what the issue is...

      "Undisputed facts" in the judgement refers to untested statements of fact that can be found in the police files in some form or other. The judge's job was not to judge what the dogs were actually alerting to (the remit of a criminal court if the McCanns had been charged), but to ascertain the degree to which Amaral had sourced his material from the files.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 10:43:18 AM
      I think I see what the issue is...

      "Undisputed facts" in the judgement refers to untested statements of fact that can be found in the police files in some form or other. The judge's job was not to judge what the dogs were actually alerting to (the remit of a criminal court if the McCanns had been charged), but to ascertain the degree to which Amaral had sourced his material from the files.

      Read page 8 of the judgement.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 17, 2015, 10:46:17 AM
      @ Stephen

      if I had given a statement to the police that you microwaved puppies for breakfast and "Expert A" wrote a book drawing on that statement, the judge would still have listed that as an "undisputed fact" for the purposes of the civil trial.

      It doesn't mean that you do actually engage in such practices, just that an untested statement in the police files to that effect does in fact exist.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 17, 2015, 10:50:44 AM
      @ Stephen

      if I had given a statement to the police that you microwaved puppies for breakfast and "Expert A" wrote a book drawing on that statement, the judge would still have listed that as an "undisputed fact" for the purposes of the civil trial.

      It doesn't mean that you do actually engage in such practices, just that an untested statement in the police files to that effect does in fact exist.

      Now remind me Carana, what does the judgement state in terms of proven facts ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 17, 2015, 10:52:24 AM
      I think I see what the issue is...

      "Undisputed facts" in the judgement refers to untested statements of fact that can be found in the police files in some form or other. The judge's job was not to judge what the dogs were actually alerting to (the remit of a criminal court if the McCanns had been charged), but to ascertain the degree to which Amaral had sourced his material from the files.

      In other words, assertions no one has bothered to dispute distinct from "proven facts"

      Would that be the nuance?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 17, 2015, 10:53:27 AM
      You are heading the same way again.  You have been warned.  All of you.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 17, 2015, 11:27:39 AM
      Back to the dogs now please.


      Even if, hypothetically, it were accepted that Gerald and Kate McCann could be responsible for the death of the child, always be left to explain how, where, when, with what means, with the help of who and where released from your body in the strict timeline that, therefore, would have laid out. Moreover, their daily routine until May 3 shall confine it to the narrow limits of the village "Ocean Club" and the beach is adjacent to it, knowing OSM surrounding land and, in addition to English friends with them summering there had not friends or contacts known in Portugal. (...)
      were carried out tests and analyzes in two of the most prestigious and accredited institutions for that purpose - National Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Science Service laboratory British - whose final results not positively valued the collected traces, nor corroborate the canine markings. (...)
      District of Lisbon
      Lisbon - Inst. Central - 1st Civil Chamber - J15
      Palace of Justice, Border Marquis Street - 1098-001 Lisboa
      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id505.html
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 12:15:12 PM
      FROM THE COURT FILES.

      based on what evidence is this a proved fact...there is none
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 17, 2015, 12:38:12 PM
      Back to the dogs now please.


      Even if, hypothetically, it were accepted that Gerald and Kate McCann could be responsible for the death of the child, always be left to explain how, where, when, with what means, with the help of who and where released from your body in the strict timeline that, therefore, would have laid out. Moreover, their daily routine until May 3 shall confine it to the narrow limits of the village "Ocean Club" and the beach is adjacent to it, knowing OSM surrounding land and, in addition to English friends with them summering there had not friends or contacts known in Portugal. (...)
      were carried out tests and analyzes in two of the most prestigious and accredited institutions for that purpose - National Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Science Service laboratory British - whose final results not positively valued the collected traces, nor corroborate the canine markings. (...)
      District of Lisbon
      Lisbon - Inst. Central - 1st Civil Chamber - J15
      Palace of Justice, Border Marquis Street - 1098-001 Lisboa
      http://www.mccannfiles.com/id505.html

      Thanks, Anna. That's the bottom line on the dog issue. The judge acknowledged that the TdeA interim report, Grime / Harrison's reports, etc., did in fact exist in the police files, but she also went through the archiving despatch, which had considered the totality of information, not just cherry-picked snippets.

      Did the dogs alert? Yes. Do statements in the police files attest to that? Yes. Do the statements refer to opinions about alerts to blood or cadaver scent? Yes. Were his assertions borne out by the prosecutor reviewing the entire dossier, including the forensic results? No.

      That's it...


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 17, 2015, 12:47:54 PM
      I can see the questions above, but I don't know how to answer them without getting into trouble with Eleanorannabartfast for being off topic.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 17, 2015, 12:49:00 PM
      Thought this was interesting although the dogs used in the study were 'civilians' ... but I think it illustrates that dogs use many more senses than humans are aware of.
      Just Martin Grime's opinion of Eddie's behaviour might have been sufficient to communicate itself to the dog which was probably as adept at reading 'body language' as he was at everything else.



      Why a dog's sense of smell is overrated: Canines use their MEMORY to find buried bones rather than following their nose

      By FIONA MACRAE, SCIENCE EDITOR FOR THE DAILY MAIL
      PUBLISHED: 19:09, 16 September 2015 | UPDATED: 21:23, 16 September 2015

      You may think Fido would use his acute sense of smell to sniff out a long-buried bone.
      In fact, a dog relies on its memory more than its nose to find hidden treats, according to new research.
      The discovery was made by US scientists who analysed the results of a game played by 500 pet dogs from around the world.

      Each dog watched as its owner placed two cup upside down in front of them, then placed a treat under one of the cups.

      The dog's eyes were then covered and the food moved to the second cup.

      When the dog was able to see again, it was called over by its owner.
      If the pooch was using their sense of smell to find the food, it should have headed for the correct cup.

      However, most got it wrong, simply running towards where they had last seen the food.
      Researcher Evan MacLean, of Duke University in North Carolina, said: 'Most people think dogs use their sense of smell for everything.

      'But actually dogs use a whole range of senses when solving problems.'

      Dr MacLean, who studies almost all animals other than cats, said: 'It is hard for me to think of a situation where having a good memory would not be an advantage.
      'Memory is important for any sort of planning and understanding patterns and for making predictions about the world.
      'Memory is crucial for all of that for any animal.'

      The study, which used the internet to recruit and test dogs in their own homes, also investigated the phenomenon of contagious yawning.
      Some research has shown that just as one person often seems to yawn after someone else yawns, a dog can 'catch' its owner's yawns.
      Dr MacLean said: 'The idea is that it is a very primitive form of empathy.
      'The dog is not necessarily feeling bad because its owner is feeling bad but it is tuning into their emotional state in its own way.'

      Dr MacLean's study, published in the journal Public Library of Science One, did not find any evidence of the phenomenon.
      But it did find that different dogs have different strengths.

      Some dogs had a better memory, others were better at taking their master's perspective or at communicating.

      Co-researcher Brian Hare said: 'Most people think of intelligence as a glass that is more or less full.
      'But intelligence is more like ice cream. Everybody has different flavours.
      'Being good at one thing doesn't mean you'll be good at everything else.'

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3237289/Why-dog-s-sense-smell-overrated-Canines-use-MEMORY-buried-bones-following-nose.html#ixzz3lzlFDRiz
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 17, 2015, 01:18:48 PM
      Thought this was interesting although the dogs used in the study were 'civilians' ... but I think it illustrates that dogs use many more senses than humans are aware of.
      Just Martin Grime's opinion of Eddie's behaviour might have been sufficient to communicate itself to the dog which was probably as adept at reading 'body language' as he was at everything else.



      Why a dog's sense of smell is overrated: Canines use their MEMORY to find buried bones rather than following their nose
      • Scientists played a version of the cup and ball game with 500 pet dogs
      • The animals were asked to find a treat they had seen hidden in a cup
      • Most failed to find the snack as they used memories instead of their nose
      • It suggests dogs do not rely on sense of smell as much as was thought

      By FIONA MACRAE, SCIENCE EDITOR FOR THE DAILY MAIL
      PUBLISHED: 19:09, 16 September 2015 | UPDATED: 21:23, 16 September 2015

      You may think Fido would use his acute sense of smell to sniff out a long-buried bone.
      In fact, a dog relies on its memory more than its nose to find hidden treats, according to new research.
      The discovery was made by US scientists who analysed the results of a game played by 500 pet dogs from around the world.

      Each dog watched as its owner placed two cup upside down in front of them, then placed a treat under one of the cups.

      The dog's eyes were then covered and the food moved to the second cup.

      When the dog was able to see again, it was called over by its owner.
      If the pooch was using their sense of smell to find the food, it should have headed for the correct cup.

      However, most got it wrong, simply running towards where they had last seen the food.
      Researcher Evan MacLean, of Duke University in North Carolina, said: 'Most people think dogs use their sense of smell for everything.

      'But actually dogs use a whole range of senses when solving problems.'

      Dr MacLean, who studies almost all animals other than cats, said: 'It is hard for me to think of a situation where having a good memory would not be an advantage.
      'Memory is important for any sort of planning and understanding patterns and for making predictions about the world.
      'Memory is crucial for all of that for any animal.'

      The study, which used the internet to recruit and test dogs in their own homes, also investigated the phenomenon of contagious yawning.
      Some research has shown that just as one person often seems to yawn after someone else yawns, a dog can 'catch' its owner's yawns.
      Dr MacLean said: 'The idea is that it is a very primitive form of empathy.
      'The dog is not necessarily feeling bad because its owner is feeling bad but it is tuning into their emotional state in its own way.'

      Dr MacLean's study, published in the journal Public Library of Science One, did not find any evidence of the phenomenon.
      But it did find that different dogs have different strengths.

      Some dogs had a better memory, others were better at taking their master's perspective or at communicating.

      Co-researcher Brian Hare said: 'Most people think of intelligence as a glass that is more or less full.
      'But intelligence is more like ice cream. Everybody has different flavours.
      'Being good at one thing doesn't mean you'll be good at everything else.'

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3237289/Why-dog-s-sense-smell-overrated-Canines-use-MEMORY-buried-bones-following-nose.html#ixzz3lzlFDRiz

      It would have been more interesting had "working" dogs been used in "work mode" and "doss mode" and tabulated along with the pet pooches used as the control.
      I doubt we will ever see that though, so we are back to you say tomayto I say tomarto.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2015, 02:43:28 PM
      Thought this was interesting although the dogs used in the study were 'civilians' ... but I think it illustrates that dogs use many more senses than humans are aware of.
      Just Martin Grime's opinion of Eddie's behaviour might have been sufficient to communicate itself to the dog which was probably as adept at reading 'body language' as he was at everything else.



      Why a dog's sense of smell is overrated: Canines use their MEMORY to find buried bones rather than following their nose
      • Scientists played a version of the cup and ball game with 500 pet dogs
      • The animals were asked to find a treat they had seen hidden in a cup
      • Most failed to find the snack as they used memories instead of their nose
      • It suggests dogs do not rely on sense of smell as much as was thought

      By FIONA MACRAE, SCIENCE EDITOR FOR THE DAILY MAIL
      PUBLISHED: 19:09, 16 September 2015 | UPDATED: 21:23, 16 September 2015

      You may think Fido would use his acute sense of smell to sniff out a long-buried bone.
      In fact, a dog relies on its memory more than its nose to find hidden treats, according to new research.
      The discovery was made by US scientists who analysed the results of a game played by 500 pet dogs from around the world.

      Each dog watched as its owner placed two cup upside down in front of them, then placed a treat under one of the cups.

      The dog's eyes were then covered and the food moved to the second cup.

      When the dog was able to see again, it was called over by its owner.
      If the pooch was using their sense of smell to find the food, it should have headed for the correct cup.

      However, most got it wrong, simply running towards where they had last seen the food.
      Researcher Evan MacLean, of Duke University in North Carolina, said: 'Most people think dogs use their sense of smell for everything.

      'But actually dogs use a whole range of senses when solving problems.'

      Dr MacLean, who studies almost all animals other than cats, said: 'It is hard for me to think of a situation where having a good memory would not be an advantage.
      'Memory is important for any sort of planning and understanding patterns and for making predictions about the world.
      'Memory is crucial for all of that for any animal.'

      The study, which used the internet to recruit and test dogs in their own homes, also investigated the phenomenon of contagious yawning.
      Some research has shown that just as one person often seems to yawn after someone else yawns, a dog can 'catch' its owner's yawns.
      Dr MacLean said: 'The idea is that it is a very primitive form of empathy.
      'The dog is not necessarily feeling bad because its owner is feeling bad but it is tuning into their emotional state in its own way.'

      Dr MacLean's study, published in the journal Public Library of Science One, did not find any evidence of the phenomenon.
      But it did find that different dogs have different strengths.

      Some dogs had a better memory, others were better at taking their master's perspective or at communicating.

      Co-researcher Brian Hare said: 'Most people think of intelligence as a glass that is more or less full.
      'But intelligence is more like ice cream. Everybody has different flavours.
      'Being good at one thing doesn't mean you'll be good at everything else.'

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3237289/Why-dog-s-sense-smell-overrated-Canines-use-MEMORY-buried-bones-following-nose.html#ixzz3lzlFDRiz

      Having kept pet dogs for years my opinion is that the researchers neglected to allow for the fact that dogs don't lie. Consequently they don't expect their owners to lie or to trick them. If the trick was done once the trusting dog naturally headed for the place it thought the food was to be found. If the trick was played more than once it would gradually have dawned on the dog that the food wasn't where it thought it was, and it would have begun to search for it.

      I have seen the exact trick played by my son on our present dog. The first time he showed the dog his two open hands, one with a treat in it. He then put his hands behind his back and changed the treat to the other hand. When he brought his closed hands back to the front the dog went to the hand she believed had the treat, and was surprised when he opened his hand and the treat has gone. She has now played the game a lot and understands it. She makes no assumptions now and uses her nose to sniff each hand before deciding where the treat is. She finds it every time.

      One of our children's games was to yawn around our dog in the 70's until she yawned too.

      Scientists seem to be far behind dog owners when it comes to understanding these animals.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 17, 2015, 02:56:39 PM
      @ Stephen

      if I had given a statement to the police that you microwaved puppies for breakfast and "Expert A" wrote a book drawing on that statement, the judge would still have listed that as an "undisputed fact" for the purposes of the civil trial.

      It doesn't mean that you do actually engage in such practices, just that an untested statement in the police files to that effect does in fact exist.

      Thanks for that Carana.    A perfect - and 'easy to understand' explanation of the legal position imo.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 17, 2015, 04:02:31 PM

      snipped from the document linked by Stephen 25000.

      PROVED FACTS
      Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :
      1. The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

      2. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      3. The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      4. The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      5. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

      [/i]

      When is an undisputed fact not an undisputed fact? I can find no caveat for this term in the document linked so presumably it can be taken as a strict definition?.
      Was the term [undisputed fact] put in the document just for laugh or because the author believed it or because the author was yet another person who failed to understand the situation as well as the posters on here?  &%+((£
       
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 04:28:34 PM
      snipped from the document linked by Stephen 25000.

      PROVED FACTS
      Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :
      1. The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

      2. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      3. The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      4. The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      5. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

      [/i]

      When is an undisputed fact not an undisputed fact? I can find no caveat for this term in the document linked so presumably it can be taken as a strict definition?.
      Was the term [undisputed fact] put in the document just for laugh or because the author believed it or because the author was yet another person who failed to understand the situation as well as the posters on here?  &%+((£

      so you believe it as well...great...two sceptics who are wrong...

      so what does it mean in English...the dog alerted to cadaver...what does that actually mean because it makes no sense
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 17, 2015, 04:33:27 PM
      snipped from the document linked by Stephen 25000.

      PROVED FACTS
      Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :
      1. The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

      2. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      3. The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      4. The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

      5. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

      [/i]

      When is an undisputed fact not an undisputed fact? I can find no caveat for this term in the document linked so presumably it can be taken as a strict definition?.
      Was the term [undisputed fact] put in the document just for laugh or because the author believed it or because the author was yet another person who failed to understand the situation as well as the posters on here?  &%+((£

      What do "alinea AR" and "alinea AS" actually state?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 04:48:58 PM
      As a reminder.........

      6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

      http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm


      UNDISPUTED FACTS.

      so what does alinea AS and Alinea AR signify
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 17, 2015, 05:27:50 PM
      so you believe it as well...great...two sceptics who are wrong...

      so what does it mean in English...the dog alerted to cadaver...what does that actually mean because it makes no sense
      Where did I say that?
      Do you understands what a question mark is customarily used for ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 05:29:04 PM
      Where did I say that?
      Do you understands what a question mark is customarily used for ?

      so you don't believe it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 17, 2015, 05:29:43 PM
      so what does alinea AS and Alinea AR signify

      Alinea means subheading or paragraph
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 05:32:16 PM
      Alinea means subheading or paragraph

      so what does it say in the sub headings..AS and AR...
      Perhaps that might explain these statements in their true context
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 05:34:28 PM
      Oxford Bloo noted....."Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected brands odor of human blood and body in apartment 5a of the Ocean Club [point AR) of undisputed]. 7.Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected odors of human blood and body in a vehicle rented by the authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann after the disappearance of Madeleine"



      A more nuanced reading shows that these are not "Proven Facts" in themselves, but the "Proven Fact" is that these statements were made in the previous reports rather than it was a proven fact that they were true. The court accepts that it is a fact that these statements occurin legal documents. Amaral needed this to claim that his book was based on what someone else had written.

      So we will have another myth growing up that the Judge in this case accepted that Eddie and Keela reacted, that the McCanns hid the body, yet still found against the McCanns, when all the judge has found is that those statements occurred in another document.




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 05:35:30 PM
      Where did I say that?
      Do you understands what a question mark is customarily used for ?

      I stopped using question marks here when posters failed to answer questions
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 17, 2015, 05:37:36 PM
      What do "alinea AR" and "alinea AS" actually state?

      I don't know!
      Whatever it states the author of the judgement thought it was an undisputed fact otherwise why list it as such?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 05:41:23 PM
      I don't know!
      Whatever it states the author of the judgement thought it was an undisputed fact otherwise why list it as such?

      the statement is qualified by the paragraph AR...perhaps therein lies the answer..what we do know is that the statement is untrue..it's a lie believed by the sceptic movement..all two of you
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 17, 2015, 05:41:41 PM
      so you don't believe it
      I didn't say that either.
      Try again.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 17, 2015, 05:47:56 PM
      I didn't say that either.
      Try again.

      so you are not sure what you believe
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 17, 2015, 05:49:19 PM
      the statement is qualifies by the paragraph AR...perhaps therein lies the answer..what we do know is that the statement is untrue..it's a lie believed by the sceptic movement..all two of you

      Two are not a movement. According "Alice's Restaurant Massacree".
      One is sick.
      Two is a pair of  (can't say now cos it's non pc)
      Three is an organization.
      Fifty is a movement.

      Well I am sure someone can dig out the document then we will know for sure and not have to guess. Your guess being no better than anyone elses.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 17, 2015, 06:02:03 PM
      Oxford Bloo noted....."Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected brands odor of human blood and body in apartment 5a of the Ocean Club [point AR) of undisputed]. 7.Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected odors of human blood and body in a vehicle rented by the authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann after the disappearance of Madeleine"



      A more nuanced reading shows that these are not "Proven Facts" in themselves, but the "Proven Fact" is that these statements were made in the previous reports rather than it was a proven fact that they were true. The court accepts that it is a fact that these statements occurin legal documents. Amaral needed this to claim that his book was based on what someone else had written.

      So we will have another myth growing up that the Judge in this case accepted that Eddie and Keela reacted, that the McCanns hid the body, yet still found against the McCanns, when all the judge has found is that those statements occurred in another document.
      Correct.  It's bloody Groundhog Day here every day. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 17, 2015, 06:45:08 PM
      Oxford Bloo noted....."Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected brands odor of human blood and body in apartment 5a of the Ocean Club [point AR) of undisputed]. 7.Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected odors of human blood and body in a vehicle rented by the authors Kate McCann and Gerald McCann after the disappearance of Madeleine"



      A more nuanced reading shows that these are not "Proven Facts" in themselves, but the "Proven Fact" is that these statements were made in the previous reports rather than it was a proven fact that they were true. The court accepts that it is a fact that these statements occurin legal documents. Amaral needed this to claim that his book was based on what someone else had written.

      So we will have another myth growing up that the Judge in this case accepted that Eddie and Keela reacted, that the McCanns hid the body, yet still found against the McCanns, when all the judge has found is that those statements occurred in another document.

      Do these Alinea AR / AS, whatever, relate to the original documents submitted for the injunction trial? If so, it may just be the judge acknowledging documents from those files all over again.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 17, 2015, 11:29:34 PM
      There's a thread on the DNA "misunderstanding" somewhere, which I can't find for the moment. In the meantime...

      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5498.100
      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2123.50
      http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2123.25

      Thanks Carana, I haven't the time to read through loads of threads right now, can't you just describe what is the difference between alleles and markers?
      I imagine most people have no idea, and unfortunately scientific explanations don't always help.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 12:24:23 AM
      Thought this was interesting although the dogs used in the study were 'civilians' ... but I think it illustrates that dogs use many more senses than humans are aware of.
      Just Martin Grime's opinion of Eddie's behaviour might have been sufficient to communicate itself to the dog which was probably as adept at reading 'body language' as he was at everything else.



      Why a dog's sense of smell is overrated: Canines use their MEMORY to find buried bones rather than following their nose
      • Scientists played a version of the cup and ball game with 500 pet dogs
      • The animals were asked to find a treat they had seen hidden in a cup
      • Most failed to find the snack as they used memories instead of their nose
      • It suggests dogs do not rely on sense of smell as much as was thought

      By FIONA MACRAE, SCIENCE EDITOR FOR THE DAILY MAIL
      PUBLISHED: 19:09, 16 September 2015 | UPDATED: 21:23, 16 September 2015

      You may think Fido would use his acute sense of smell to sniff out a long-buried bone.
      In fact, a dog relies on its memory more than its nose to find hidden treats, according to new research.
      The discovery was made by US scientists who analysed the results of a game played by 500 pet dogs from around the world.

      Each dog watched as its owner placed two cup upside down in front of them, then placed a treat under one of the cups.

      The dog's eyes were then covered and the food moved to the second cup.

      When the dog was able to see again, it was called over by its owner.
      If the pooch was using their sense of smell to find the food, it should have headed for the correct cup.

      However, most got it wrong, simply running towards where they had last seen the food.
      Researcher Evan MacLean, of Duke University in North Carolina, said: 'Most people think dogs use their sense of smell for everything.

      'But actually dogs use a whole range of senses when solving problems.'

      Dr MacLean, who studies almost all animals other than cats, said: 'It is hard for me to think of a situation where having a good memory would not be an advantage.
      'Memory is important for any sort of planning and understanding patterns and for making predictions about the world.
      'Memory is crucial for all of that for any animal.'

      The study, which used the internet to recruit and test dogs in their own homes, also investigated the phenomenon of contagious yawning.
      Some research has shown that just as one person often seems to yawn after someone else yawns, a dog can 'catch' its owner's yawns.
      Dr MacLean said: 'The idea is that it is a very primitive form of empathy.
      'The dog is not necessarily feeling bad because its owner is feeling bad but it is tuning into their emotional state in its own way.'

      Dr MacLean's study, published in the journal Public Library of Science One, did not find any evidence of the phenomenon.
      But it did find that different dogs have different strengths.

      Some dogs had a better memory, others were better at taking their master's perspective or at communicating.

      Co-researcher Brian Hare said: 'Most people think of intelligence as a glass that is more or less full.
      'But intelligence is more like ice cream. Everybody has different flavours.
      'Being good at one thing doesn't mean you'll be good at everything else.'

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3237289/Why-dog-s-sense-smell-overrated-Canines-use-MEMORY-buried-bones-following-nose.html#ixzz3lzlFDRiz

       8)><( *&*%£

      How do pooches with a good memory when trained and worked as cadaver dogs do  remembering remnant scent of saliva, clipped toenails, and bad breath? Sheesh, I expect the whole population of any country would not want cadaver dogs entering their homes....! quick, hide the pork chops, empty the bins, the bacons in there, and the smelly old socks!! Hoover up the nails (though I'm sure some here will argue Eddie could have smelt through a Henry Hoover bag's contents). My list is growing longer, I've just read cadaver dogs alert to freshly mown lawns or some insanity like that, not to mention the other day two kids were fighting and one pulled the others hair out... I am waiting for the dust mites to hit the stage any time soon.Carry on though. It's very entertaining as well as being so bloody pathetic it's unreal.




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 12:49:10 AM
      Irrelevant.

      I reported from the court judgement with no alterations or amendments.

      Not sure why everyone is jumping up and down so muchand getting in a tizz, ..there is no difference here between the judgement and the appeal court exonerating Amaral in the first place...some years ago....proven does not mean the judge counted the DNA markers, proven means the dogs alerted to cadaver scent and blood...as this is what they alert to, now people can spin it semantically and otherwise for another 400 pages...won't change a thing libel wise (which is non existent anyway in this case)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2015, 12:55:31 AM
      8)><( *&*%£

      How do pooches with a good memory when trained and worked as cadaver dogs do  remembering remnant scent of saliva, clipped toenails, and bad breath? Sheesh, I expect the whole population of any country would not want cadaver dogs entering their homes....! quick, hide the pork chops, empty the bins, the bacons in there, and the smelly old socks!! Hoover up the nails (though I'm sure some here will argue Eddie could have smelt through a Henry Hoover bag's contents). My list is growing longer, I've just read cadaver dogs alert to freshly mown lawns or some insanity like that, not to mention the other day two kids were fighting and one pulled the others hair out... I am waiting for the dust mites to hit the stage any time soon.Carry on though. It's very entertaining as well as being so bloody pathetic it's unreal.

      Eddie helped to convict murderers not toe clippers  8(0(*

      Devon, UK
      A female was abducted and her whereabouts were unknown. The suspect
      was a bus driver. An initial search by the E.V.R.D. alerted at a location near
      to a sighting of the suspect in suspicious circumstances. A forensic search at
      the alert location revealed a small button off of the girls clothing in long grass.
      The offender confessed to the murder and confirmed her body had been
      initially temporarily placed at the dog's alert location.

      A 39-year-old bus driver was charged last night with the murder of the college student Alicia Eborne, whose body was found concealed in thick woodland at an isolated spot on Dartmoor, in Devon, earlier yesterday.

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/nov/17/ukcrime.jamiewilson
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 01:07:55 AM
      Eddie helped to convict murderers not toe clippers  8(0(*


      PMSL!
      Classic!

       @)(++(*

      Thanks for that! I'm off to send a FOI request to SYP just to make sure Eddie wasn't sent to a nail clipping detection school and Grime surreptitiously left it off his profile because he was "on the make" . What a fraud! If so.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 07:22:14 AM
      No wonder the dog threads go on forever when the sceptics cannot understand the basics.
      It is impossible to prove remnant scent...that is something we have all agreed on..impossible
      so Stephen and others are misinterpreting the judgement
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 18, 2015, 08:25:04 AM
      Eddie helped to convict murderers not toe clippers  8(0(*


      Could the alert have been given because the clothes had been in contact with other items of clothing, surfaces or objects that could previously have touched a cadaver, thereby allowing the odour to be transferred''

      There is always a possibility of contamination of odours by transferral. EVRD does not make a distinction; he responds with a certain behaviour for which he was trained when he recognizes an odour. He does not identify the reasons for the presence of the odour nor does he identify suspects. Forensic confirmation and specialized investigation methods will determine the reasons and the suspicions. In order to undoubtedly affirm there must be a confirmation of the alert signals made by the dog.

      Martin Grime

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2015, 08:26:11 AM
      8)><( *&*%£

      How do pooches with a good memory when trained and worked as cadaver dogs do  remembering remnant scent of saliva, clipped toenails, and bad breath? Sheesh, I expect the whole population of any country would not want cadaver dogs entering their homes....! quick, hide the pork chops, empty the bins, the bacons in there, and the smelly old socks!! Hoover up the nails (though I'm sure some here will argue Eddie could have smelt through a Henry Hoover bag's contents). My list is growing longer, I've just read cadaver dogs alert to freshly mown lawns or some insanity like that, not to mention the other day two kids were fighting and one pulled the others hair out... I am waiting for the dust mites to hit the stage any time soon.Carry on though. It's very entertaining as well as being so bloody pathetic it's unreal.

      Butchers have had it, and gardeners with fertilizer on their wellies. Undertakers are sure to be guilty, and slaughterhouse workers. Pig farmers may as well hand themselves in immediately too.   8((()*/
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 08:30:42 AM
      No wonder the dog threads go on forever when the sceptics cannot understand the basics.
      It is impossible to prove remnant scent...that is something we have all agreed on..impossible
      so Stephen and others are misinterpreting the judgement

       @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      READ THE JUDGEMENT. There is no misinterpretation. It is in black and white.

      No deflection from you and others will change that.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 18, 2015, 09:22:38 AM
      @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*

      READ THE JUDGEMENT. There is no misinterpretation. It is in black and white.

      No deflection from you and others will change that.

      Oh dear - it seems you are still completely missing the point Stephen.

      Just to remind you:


      @ Stephen  (from Carana)

      if I had given a statement to the police that you microwaved puppies for breakfast and "Expert A" wrote a book drawing on that statement, the judge would still have listed that as an "undisputed fact" for the purposes of the civil trial.

      It doesn't mean that you do actually engage in such practices, just that an untested statement in the police files to that effect does in fact exist.

      [/b][/u]

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 09:29:53 AM
      Oh dear - it seems you are still completely missing the point Stephen.

      Just to remind you:


      @ Stephen  (from Carana)

      if I had given a statement to the police that you microwaved puppies for breakfast and "Expert A" wrote a book drawing on that statement, the judge would still have listed that as an "undisputed fact" for the purposes of the civil trial.

      It doesn't mean that you do actually engage in such practices, just that an untested statement in the police files to that effect does in fact exist.

      [/b][/u]

      I'm missing no point.

      READ THE JUDGEMENT.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 18, 2015, 09:30:04 AM
      Oh dear - it seems you are still completely missing the point Stephen.

      Just to remind you:


      @ Stephen  (from Carana)

      if I had given a statement to the police that you microwaved puppies for breakfast and "Expert A" wrote a book drawing on that statement, the judge would still have listed that as an "undisputed fact" for the purposes of the civil trial.

      It doesn't mean that you do actually engage in csuch practices, just that an untested statement in the police files to that effect does in fact exist.

      [/b][/u]

      ...and in a trial Stephen would, I'm sure, challenge the puppy statement. Strangely enough the alerts weren't challenged in this one.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2015, 09:42:02 AM
      ...and in a trial Stephen would, I'm sure, challenge the puppy statement. Strangely enough the alerts weren't challenged in this one.

      Gerald McCann tried to bring the subject up and the judge told him to shut it as I recall.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 18, 2015, 09:44:26 AM
      ...and in a trial Stephen would, I'm sure, challenge the puppy statement. Strangely enough the alerts weren't challenged in this one.

      No need to challenge them.

      Uncorroborated alerts have no evidential value or meaning.

      Why waste time challenging them?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 18, 2015, 09:48:52 AM
      ...and in a trial Stephen would, I'm sure, challenge the puppy statement. Strangely enough the alerts weren't challenged in this one.

      It's my understanding that whether anything written was true or not was irrelevant.   It was proof that statements made were from the files as claimed by Amaral -  that was being sought.   And not whether those statements were factually correct.

      Isn't that what the Judge explained to GM?  (from memory)

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 18, 2015, 09:51:40 AM
      Gerald McCann tried to bring the subject up and the judge told him to shut it as I recall.

      IIRC that was because whether the statements made about the dogs was true or not was irrelevant.    It was establishing whether or not those statements came from the files that was the issue.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 09:51:54 AM
      It's my understanding that whether anything written was true or not was irrelevant.   It was proof that statements made were from the files as claimed by Amaral -  that was being sought.   And not whether those statements were factually correct.

      Isn't that what the Judge explained to GM?  (from memory)


      Can you please explain what is meant by the phrase 'UNDISPUTED FACTS' ?

      P.S. I'm not shouting.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Benice on September 18, 2015, 09:59:14 AM

      Can you please explain what is meant by the phrase 'UNDISPUTED FACTS' ?

      P.S. I'm not shouting.

      Sorry Stephen - No can do.   Taxi is on its way and I'm off on my hols for the next 10 days.  Carana has already explained it all to you - maybe she might have another go at it.

      Bye for now.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 18, 2015, 10:00:56 AM
      Sorry Stephen - No can do.   Taxi is on its way and I'm off on my hols for the next 10 days.  Carana has already explained it all to you - maybe she might have another go at it.

      Bye for now.

      Have a wonderful time, Benice.

      Look forward to seeing you when you get back ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:03:07 AM

      Can you please explain what is meant by the phrase 'UNDISPUTED FACTS' ?

      P.S. I'm not shouting.
      Posters already have done
      Residual scent cannot be proved...fact
      What you are proving is how poorly you understand the facts in the case
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 10:03:26 AM
      Sorry Stephen - No can do.   Taxi is on its way and I'm off on my hols for the next 10 days.  Carana has already explained it all to you - maybe she might have another go at it.

      Bye for now.

      It doesn't need explaining.

      Anyway, have a good holiday.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 10:05:54 AM
      Posters already have done
      Residual scent cannot be proved...fact
      What you are proving is how poorly you understand the facts in the case

      You still don't get it.

      Read the judgement.

      If you don't like it, take it up with the Portuguese judicial system.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2015, 10:07:18 AM
      8)><( *&*%£

      How do pooches with a good memory when trained and worked as cadaver dogs do  remembering remnant scent of saliva, clipped toenails, and bad breath? Sheesh, I expect the whole population of any country would not want cadaver dogs entering their homes....! quick, hide the pork chops, empty the bins, the bacons in there, and the smelly old socks!! Hoover up the nails (though I'm sure some here will argue Eddie could have smelt through a Henry Hoover bag's contents). My list is growing longer, I've just read cadaver dogs alert to freshly mown lawns or some insanity like that, not to mention the other day two kids were fighting and one pulled the others hair out... I am waiting for the dust mites to hit the stage any time soon.Carry on though. It's very entertaining as well as being so bloody pathetic it's unreal.

      What is it you fail to understand about scientific studies which have identified that new mown grass emits the same chemical as that given off by a fresh cadaver?
      http://nextinform.com/the-summery-whiff-of-freshly-cut-grass-is-also-the-smell-of-death-same-chemical-is-given-off-by-fresh-cadavers-study-reveals/

      It is not an off the cuff opinion formulated by self appointed 'experts' on internet fora in conjunction with their own prejudice and that of others. 

      It is the result of scientific research undertaken to understand and ascertain exactly what the cadaver dog can smell at various stages of decomposition and as a result how best to improve the training of cadaver dogs.
      http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/

      I think the problem some people may have with the continuing scientific research leading to better understanding is that it upsets their singular personal view of an event encapsulated in one small moment in time.

      One which they were told at the time had no evidential value ... the exact reasons for which have become clearer as a result of various scientific studies.

      The latest of which are categorical in that ...


      If you have a problem with the results of the research ... perhaps you will be able to come up with similar relevant studies to substantiate your point of view and bring the information to the forum.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:09:29 AM
      You still don't get it.

      Read the judgement.

      If you don't like it, take it up with the Portuguese judicial system.

      I get it
      Residual scent cannot be proved.... An absolute fact
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 10:11:38 AM
      I get it
      Residual scent cannot be proved.... An absolute fact


      This 'conversation' is in relation at the moment to the court judgement.

      and it is black and white.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2015, 10:35:26 AM
      I get it
      Residual scent cannot be proved.... An absolute fact

      It could only be proved if it were possible to use equipment capable of collecting and allowing analysis of the sample gases.

      Decomp dogs are tools which cannot be calibrated because we simply do not know what they are telling us unless their alert leads to the discovery of whole or partial remains.
      Without firm corroboration using a tool which is calibrated and capable of giving measurable consistent readings allowing an interpretation of the gases present ... the dog alerts mean nothing.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 18, 2015, 10:43:37 AM
      It could only be proved if it were possible to use equipment capable of collecting and allowing analysis of the sample gases.

      Decomp dogs are tools which cannot be calibrated because we simply do not know what they are telling us unless their alert leads to the discovery of whole or partial remains.
      Without firm corroboration using a tool which is calibrated and capable of giving measurable consistent readings allowing an interpretation of the gases present ... the dog alerts mean nothing.

      With the possible exception they are alerting to what they have been trained to alert to.
      From the article you linked:
      "Dogs are better at the job than any "electronic nose" would be, Dr Williams pointed out".
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 18, 2015, 10:49:10 AM
      So you don't agree with stephen

      That has b****r all to do with what was said in the judgement which is the topic of this conversation; less or more.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:50:33 AM
      That has b****r all to do with what was said in the judgement which is the topic of this conversation; less or more.

      It does
      Stephen has no support for his ridiculous claim
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:53:39 AM


      the judgement is qualified by paragraph AR and AS...do you have any idea what those paragraphs state...without that the statement is incomplete...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 18, 2015, 10:58:41 AM

      Deleting shortly because this is boring me half to death.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 10:59:19 AM
      the judgement is qualified by paragraph AR and AS...do you have any idea what those paragraphs state...without that the statement is incomplete...

      Really ?

      Then prove me wrong.

      'indisputable facts'.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 18, 2015, 11:07:58 AM
      Full court Judgement:- found here.......

      https://inforrm.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/mccanns-v-amaral-judgment.pdf

      ...............................................

      Excerpt.

      6. Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected traces of blood odors

      and human corpse in apartment 5a
      of the Ocean Club [point AR) of the facts

      based].

      7. Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected odors brands

      District of Lisbon

      Lisbon - Inst. Central - 1st Civil Chamber - J15

      Palace of Justice, Border Marquis Street - 1098-001 Lisboa

      Phone: 213846400 Fax: 213874221 Mail: lisboa.centralcivel@tribunais.org.pt

      Proc.Nº 1454 / 09.5TVLSB

      Bottom line:-

      Excerpt


      Tests and analyzes were carried out in two of the most prestigious institutions and
      accredited for that purpose - National Institute of Legal Medicine and the British laboratory
      Forensic Science Service - Final results not positively valued the
      traces gathered, nor corroborate the canine markings. (...)
      District of Lisbon
      Lisbon - Inst. Central - 1st Civil Chamber - J15
      Palace of Justice, Border Marquis Street - 1098-001 Lisboa
      Phone: 213846400 Fax: 213874221 Mail: lisboa.centralcivel@tribunais.org.pt
      Proc.Nº 1454 / 09.5TVLSB


      https://inforrm.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/mccanns-v-amaral-judgment.pdf

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 11:14:51 AM


      "6. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]."
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 18, 2015, 11:16:32 AM
      Deleting shortly because this is boring me half to death.

      Sorry. Done it again.

      It is getting boring...I agree
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2015, 11:24:16 AM
      With the possible exception they are alerting to what they have been trained to alert to.
      From the article you linked:
      "Dogs are better at the job than any "electronic nose" would be, Dr Williams pointed out".


      Cherry picking the bits which fit and ignoring the bits which don't fit really adds nothing at all to the debate. 

      Dr Williams and most other researchers have explained exactly the circumstances in which dogs are "better" or certainly the more appropriate tool to be used from the tool box.

      Quote
      She said: "They have distinct advantages over e-noses. They can go into dangerous environments and they can assess and adjust their behaviour according to the situation they're in.
      "We hope this research combined with training will lead to greater success in finding bodies." end Quote
      http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/

      Researcher Dr Anna Williams also mentioned that in the different stages of decomposition and that it gets really smelly when the "bacteria get involved" producing other "death compounds" ...

      The "smell of death" isn't really as cut and dried as some would have us believe ... or why are Universities and scientists continuing researching and studying all aspects of human decomposition for as many reasons as there are studies?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 11:28:16 AM
       &%54%
      Really ?

      Then prove me wrong.

      'indisputable facts'.

      I have proved you wrong
      Residual scent cannot be proved... It's as simple as that
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 18, 2015, 12:00:46 PM
      Cherry picking the bits which fit and ignoring the bits which don't fit really adds nothing at all to the debate. 

      Dr Williams and most other researchers have explained exactly the circumstances in which dogs are "better" or certainly the more appropriate tool to be used from the tool box.

      Quote
      She said: "They have distinct advantages over e-noses. They can go into dangerous environments and they can assess and adjust their behaviour according to the situation they're in.
      "We hope this research combined with training will lead to greater success in finding bodies." end Quote
      http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/

      Researcher Dr Anna Williams also mentioned that in the different stages of decomposition and that it gets really smelly when the "bacteria get involved" producing other "death compounds" ...
      • "indole, reeks "very strongly" of faeces"
      • "trimethylamine, produces a powerful fishy pong"
      • "while others smell of paint thinner and nail varnish remover"

      The "smell of death" isn't really as cut and dried as some would have us believe ... or why are Universities and scientists continuing researching and studying all aspects of human decomposition for as many reasons as there are studies?

      Just following normal forum practice.
      I notice you cherry picked the bit of my post you wished to respond to and ignored the first part.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 12:19:40 PM
      Just following normal forum practice.
      I notice you cherry picked the bit of my post you wished to respond to and ignored the first part.

      Indeed.

      Also, it is not 'indole', since there are a group of indoles.

      The one giving rise to the main smell in faeces and in cadavers is 3-Methyl Indole/Skatole.

      The concentrations of Trimethylamine would increase over time. At the start the the concentrations would be very low in tissues and organs.

      http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11596-008-0603-x#page-1

      As  to the other substances mentioned. 'paint thinner and nail varnish remover' rather imprecise terms I might add, would hardly be easy to detect early on.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 12:31:39 PM

      "6. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

      7. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]."

      just looking at the original Portuguese....it doesn't say that...it's a poor translation
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2015, 12:50:34 PM
      Just following normal forum practice.
      I notice you cherry picked the bit of my post you wished to respond to and ignored the first part.

      I rather imagine that Dr Anna William's sentence you quote may have referred more to the appropriate use of dogs in the field rather than the gas chromatography machine she used in her research ... and not as implied that the dogs were 'better'.
      It could be argued if one was so inclined, that one is an unquantifiable variable and the other the opposite ... but it is more interesting perhaps to note the ignored scientific findings reflecting much of the discussion which has taken place on the McCann boards over the years.

      Quite obviously in working dog circles much of what is now the subject of scientific study and proof was already known to those in law enforcement and dog handlers.
      Hence the absolute necessity for corroboration of any dog alerts.

      That is the part of the equation absolutely misunderstood by Mr Amaral; he assumed that the indicator of the dog alert equated with authentication and gave the proof to enable him to slap arguido status on the Drs McCann.

      We know a lot better now than most in 2007 could (not forgetting Martin Grime's caveat in his statements) due to the studies which have taken place in the intervening period ~ that he was entirely wrong without forensic corroboration.

      Dr Williams also mentioned the odour of faeces ~ fishy pong ~ paint thinner and nail varnish remover.  We have had the endless bad jokes and smileys about sea bass and dirty nappies ... new ones will perhaps require to be manufactured to support her findings about holidaymakers displaying naked toes in flip flops using nail varnish remover and whether or not the apartment required redecoration (paint thinner) after the assault it had recieved with dragons blood sufficient to interfere with forensics.

      Not forgetting that as well as pig based fertiliser ... there is now the added component of someone walking across freshly mown grass with which to contend ... the difficulty being that all are backed with scientific papers and documented proof.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2015, 12:58:57 PM
      Indeed.

      Also, it is not 'indole', since there are a group of indoles.

      The one giving rise to the main smell in faeces and in cadavers is 3-Methyl Indole/Skatole.

      The concentrations of Trimethylamine would increase over time. At the start the the concentrations would be very low in tissues and organs.

      http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11596-008-0603-x#page-1

      As  to the other substances mentioned. 'paint thinner and nail varnish remover' rather imprecise terms I might add, would hardly be easy to detect early on.

      It is the point that the substances mentioned replicate the components of the "scent of death" to which cadaver dogs are trained to respond.

       

      "In the first few days the body is going through a process of autolysis, which is basically the self-digestion of cells."
      http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/


      Do we know if the process of autolysis described by Dr Anna Williams was part of Eddie's trained response?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 01:06:32 PM
      It is the point that the substances mentioned replicate the components of the "scent of death" to which cadaver dogs are trained to respond.

       

      "In the first few days the body is going through a process of autolysis, which is basically the self-digestion of cells."
      http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/


      Do we know if the process of autolysis described by Dr Anna Williams was part of Eddie's trained response?

      I read that earlier.

      and funnily enough, I do know some Chemistry. 8((()*/

      Then to your last question, I suggest you contact Mr. Grime. 8)-)))
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2015, 03:15:47 PM
      What is it you fail to understand about scientific studies which have identified that new mown grass emits the same chemical as that given off by a fresh cadaver?
      http://nextinform.com/the-summery-whiff-of-freshly-cut-grass-is-also-the-smell-of-death-same-chemical-is-given-off-by-fresh-cadavers-study-reveals/

      It is not an off the cuff opinion formulated by self appointed 'experts' on internet fora in conjunction with their own prejudice and that of others. 

      It is the result of scientific research undertaken to understand and ascertain exactly what the cadaver dog can smell at various stages of decomposition and as a result how best to improve the training of cadaver dogs.
      http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/

      I think the problem some people may have with the continuing scientific research leading to better understanding is that it upsets their singular personal view of an event encapsulated in one small moment in time.

      One which they were told at the time had no evidential value ... the exact reasons for which have become clearer as a result of various scientific studies.

      The latest of which are categorical in that ...
      • dogs sometimes ignore what they are capable of smelling for what they remember
      • yaaawn ... dogs are capable of succumbing to outside influences
      • new mown grass gives off the same chemicals that a fresh cadaver emits


      If you have a problem with the results of the research ... perhaps you will be able to come up with similar relevant studies to substantiate your point of view and bring the information to the forum.

      There isn't a lawn at apartment 5A!

      (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/apartment5aflowerbed.jpg)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 18, 2015, 03:21:26 PM
      There isn't a lawn at apartment 5A!

      (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/apartment5aflowerbed.jpg)

      But there are grassy areas within OC, namely the children's play area. Fresh grass cuttings are easily transported on people's shoes.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2015, 03:23:44 PM
      There isn't a lawn at apartment 5A!

      (http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/apartment5aflowerbed.jpg)

      I look forward to the next time our police dog handlers bring out their dogs and stop in amazement as the dogs alert madly all over the suspect's lawn. Priceless!  @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 18, 2015, 03:43:21 PM
      I look forward to the next time our police dog handlers bring out their dogs and stop in amazement as the dogs alert madly all over the suspect's lawn. Priceless!  @)(++(*

      It only happens if you've sprinkled your lawn with peat-based MiracleGro.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 18, 2015, 04:29:47 PM
      It only happens if you've sprinkled your lawn with peat-based MiracleGro.

      Not bonemeal?  8(0(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 18, 2015, 04:46:47 PM
      Not bonemeal?  8(0(*

       8@??)( 8@??)( 8@??)(
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 18, 2015, 04:59:55 PM
      Not bonemeal?  8(0(*

      I don't believe the cadaver dogs alert to the remnants of other animals, bar piglets. There are no human remains in bonemeal.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 18, 2015, 05:02:59 PM
      It is the point that the substances mentioned replicate the components of the "scent of death" to which cadaver dogs are trained to respond.

       

      "In the first few days the body is going through a process of autolysis, which is basically the self-digestion of cells."
      http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/


      Do we know if the process of autolysis described by Dr Anna Williams was part of Eddie's trained response?

      It would seem probable it was. Unless someone has incontrovertible evidence that it didn't ie proof that all the
      piggy bits that were ever used in his training were older than a few days.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 18, 2015, 06:32:37 PM
      It would seem probable it was. Unless someone has incontrovertible evidence that it didn't ie proof that all the
      piggy bits that were ever used in his training were older than a few days.

      As far as I iknow, the medical and legal procedures involved (and therefore time) would differ between a still-born piglet and anyone's nearest and dearest OH or relative.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on September 18, 2015, 08:47:34 PM


      I don't think anyone is questioning Keela's alerts as they were all corroborated.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 08:49:48 PM


      I think by now you should understand my position on the alerts
      I don't believe there was a cadaver on 5a
      The alert to blood was obviously correct
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 18, 2015, 08:57:25 PM
      I think by now you should understand my position on the alerts
      I don't believe there was a cadaver on 5a
      The alert to blood was obviously correct

      So by your own admission the alerts were not total BS?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 09:02:19 PM
      So by your own admission the alerts were not total BS?

      As we have been discussing the cadaver alerts all day some might have the intelligence to see my post in context
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 09:50:52 PM
      Thank you
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 10:07:54 PM

      I don't think anyone is questioning Keela's alerts as they were all corroborated.
      Eddies couldn't be, doesn't mean they were wrong, another fact which some people won't accept as a possibility, that he DID react to remnant scent of a dead body... He wasn't trained sniffing lawns or live humans sweat or bad breath or whatever else s going to come out as a pathetic possiblity...sheesh
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:09:49 PM
      Eddies couldn't be, doesn't mean they were wrong, another fact which some people won't accept as a possibility, that he DID react to remnant scent of a dead body... He wasn't trained sniffing lawns or live humans sweat or bad breath or whatever else s going to come out as a pathetic possiblity...sheesh

      grime never discusses the alerts as to being due to the remnant scent of a body...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:14:14 PM
      the very fact that SY believe Maddie may still be alive is proof they do not believe eddie alerted to the remnant scent from a cadaver in 5a
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 10:23:48 PM
      grime says the alerts have no intelligence reliability so your claim they are intelligence is wrong. I call them BS because they tell us nothing...perhaps you could tell us what the alerts actually tell us that we do not already know

      a cadaver trained dog alerting does tell us something...not nothing!

      As for YOUR claim that Grime says the alerts are not intelligence, that is untrue, he said they have no reliability if uncorroborated.....and as we know they can't be corroborated unless by other evidence...forensics from blood found by the blood dog or other investigative findings forensically or otherwise...to say dog alerts mean nothing and are BS is a little childish...no police force would utilise them in search of remnant death scent if they couldn't alert to it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 18, 2015, 10:26:03 PM
      no answer to my specific questions? Oh well, never mind Brie, guess you can't manage to find a sensible one to any?

      Your specific questions have been addressed ad nauseam in this dog thread and on every dog thread on the forum.

      Your post ridiculing the study which has found that newly cut grass emits hexanol which is also one of the VOCs emitted by early decomposing human remains is the originator of the recent posts I have made on the subject of the dogs and Mr Amaral's misinterpretation of their significance.

      If you wish to continue the discussion it might be useful to draw a line through groundhog day and move to where the scientific evidence has taken us in 2015.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:26:28 PM
      a cadaver trained dog alerting does tell us something...not nothing!

      As for YOUR claim that Grime says the alerts are not intelligence, that is untrue, he said they have no reliability if uncorroborated.....and as we know they can't be corroborated unless by other evidence...forensics from blood found by the blood dog or other investigative findings forensically or otherwise...to say dog alerts mean nothing and are BS is a little childish...no police force would utilise them in search of remnant death scent if they couldn't alert to it

      so once again..what do they tell us...do you have an answer
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 10:29:18 PM
      Your specific questions have been addressed ad nauseam in this dog thread and on every dog thread on the forum.



      Your post ridiculing the study which has found that newly cut grass emits hexanol which is also one of the VOCs emitted by early decomposing human remains is the originator of the recent posts I have made on the subject of the dogs and Mr Amaral's misinterpretation of their significance.

      If you wish to continue the discussion it might be useful to draw a line through groundhog day and move to where the scientific evidence has taken us in 2015.


      No, they have not and besides I was asking you personally, nice fob off
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2015, 10:30:04 PM
      so once again..what do they tell us...do you have an answer

      Can you prove that the child is alive and Eddie was wrong? Eddie has alerted in many cases and the missing person has never turned up alive. So probability tells you what is most likely like SY digging last summer for a body.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:31:28 PM
      a cadaver trained dog alerting does tell us something...not nothing!

      As for YOUR claim that Grime says the alerts are not intelligence, that is untrue, he said they have no reliability if uncorroborated.....and as we know they can't be corroborated unless by other evidence...forensics from blood found by the blood dog or other investigative findings forensically or otherwise...to say dog alerts mean nothing and are BS is a little childish...no police force would utilise them in search of remnant death scent if they couldn't alert to it

      its true...
      grime says,,,,,,It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
       contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can ..

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:32:27 PM
      Can you prove that the child is alive and Eddie was wrong? Eddie has alerted in many cases and the missing person has never turned up alive. So probability tells you what is most likely like SY digging last summer for a body.

      shame no one can answer the question
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 10:36:02 PM
      so once again..what do they tell us...do you have an answer

      So, once again, they tell us that the cadaver dog sent in by the UK reacted to cadaver odour..what it is trained to do, trained on decomposing bodies,it really isn't that difficult to comprehend but you can spend all day and all night in here saying no it wasn't or might not have been
      Whatever  floats your boat
      it REMAINS intelligence for the people in charge and Redwood has hinted IMO the dog did find the scent when he said "there is no CLEAR DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE" that Madleine is dead...why didn't he just say there is not a scrap of evidence? Like the Mccanns say all the time?

       &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:37:36 PM
      shame no one can answer the question

      so mercury cannot answer the simple question...what have the alerts told us..nothing..thats why I call the alerts BS
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 10:40:42 PM
      its true...
      grime says,,,,,,It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
       contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can ..

      it might help if you read past only what you want to read around what is posted in totality, then you might not go jaunting off on some false trail that wastes everyone's time
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:44:38 PM
      So, once again, they tell us that the cadaver dog sent in by the UK reacted to cadaver odour..what it is trained to do, trained on decomposing bodies,it really isn't that difficult to comprehend but you can spend all day and all night in here saying no it wasn't or might not have been
      Whatever  floats your boat
      it REMAINS intelligence for the people in charge and Redwood has hinted IMO the dog did find the scent when he said "there is no CLEAR DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE" that Madleine is dead...why didn't he just say there is not a scrap of evidence? Like the Mccanns say all the time?

       &%+((£

      Grime has not confirmed the alert was to cadaver...grime has said the alerts have no intelligence reliability..the whole basis of your posts is based on falsehoods
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:46:51 PM
      it might help if you read past only what you want to read around what is posted in totality, then you might not go jaunting off on some false trail that wastes everyone's time

      Your beliefs are based on falsehoods as I have demonstrated
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 18, 2015, 10:50:10 PM
      the very fact that SY believe Maddie may still be alive is proof they do not believe eddie alerted to the remnant scent from a cadaver in 5a

      Very poor logic that. It is quite possible that SY believe that Madeleine is dad but accept that she may be alive.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 10:53:55 PM
      Very poor logic that. It is quite possible that SY believe that Madeleine is dad but accept that she may be alive.
      very good logic in fact...if maddie is still alive...as SY believe is possible then SY believe all eddies alerts may be wrong...that is no vote of confidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 10:58:09 PM
      Your beliefs are based on falsehoods as I have demonstrated
      you have demonstrated zilch

      I don't have beliefs set in stone, I deal with probabilities but I don't deal with people who can't tell the difference, simple as that :)

      Grime has not confirmed the alert was to cadaver...grime has said the alerts have no intelligence reliability..the whole basis of your posts is based on falsehoods

      please don't ignorantly let alone nauseatingly patronisingly  presume and then ignorantly dictate what my posts are based on, thanks ever so much...I must give you a wide berth now as I'd rather spend time discussing with adults in a discussing way iyswim
      but maybe not
      *bye*


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 18, 2015, 11:00:11 PM
      please don't ignorantly let alone nauseatingly patronisingly  presume and then ignorantly dictate what my posts are based on, thanks ever so much...I must give you a wide berth now as I'd rather spend time discussing with adults in a discussing way iyswim
      but maybe not
      *bye*

      your posts are based on falsehoods which you cannot defend
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 18, 2015, 11:29:33 PM
      very good logic in fact...if maddie is still alive...as SY believe is possible then SY believe all eddies alerts may be wrong...that is no vote of confidence

      Nope. It is more logical that SY believe that Madeliene is dead but accept there is a possibility she is alive. There is nothing in their statements that contradict that position.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 11:42:24 PM
      Nope. It is more logical that SY believe that Madeliene is dead but accept there is a possibility she is alive. There is nothing in their statements that contradict that position.
      agree with that, well said
      and that's why redwood said there's no clear definitive evidence she is dead IE there was but wasnt definitive aka the dogs and also I assume time lapsed and statistics which police know of


      The final report from the cps in PT  said the same, more likely she is dead

      tara
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 19, 2015, 07:02:52 AM
      Nope. It is more logical that SY believe that Madeliene is dead but accept there is a possibility she is alive. There is nothing in their statements that contradict that position.

      If they accept there is a possibility Madeleine may be alive, then they set absolutely no store by Eddie's alert and intelligence that she may be dead is not, at all, based on Eddie's alerts.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 07:07:48 AM
      If they accept there is a possibility Madeleine may be alive, then they set absolutely no store by Eddie's alert and intelligence that she may be dead is not, at all, based on Eddie's alerts.

      Yet Redwood said Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.

      i.e. They don't have a clue.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 19, 2015, 07:29:44 AM
      Yet Redwood said Madeleine may not have left the apartment alive.

      i.e. They don't have a clue.

      I dismiss any suggestion that thinking is based on Eddie's alerts (or Keela's, come to that).
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 07:45:01 AM
      I dismiss any suggestion that thinking is based on Eddie's alerts (or Keela's, come to that).

      What value is your opinion on what Redwood said ?





      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 07:50:07 AM
      Nope. It is more logical that SY believe that Madeliene is dead but accept there is a possibility she is alive. There is nothing in their statements that contradict that position.
      at last you seem to understand...SY accept it is possible that maddie may still be alive...that's what I said in my post......so they do not accept that the dogs alerted to maddie's cadaver
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 07:55:19 AM
      What value is your opinion on what Redwood said ?

      as much as your or anyone else's opinion on here
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 19, 2015, 07:59:15 AM
      at last you seem to understand...SY accept it is possible that maddie may still be alive...that's what I said in my post......so they do not accept that the dogs alerted to maddie's cadaver

      They accept it is possible that the dogs alerted to Madeleine's cadaver.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 08:00:20 AM
      The one question repeatedly evaded is this.

      If certain people think Madeleine is still alive, what are the logical possibilities of where she is ?

      1. Still with a paedophile(s) ?

      2. Living with people aware or unaware of who she is ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 08:03:15 AM
      They accept it is possible that the dogs alerted to Madeleine's cadaver.
      how do you know that...you are stating your opinion as fact..
      my opinion is that they do not accept that..
      if the parents are not suspects then there is no time for cadaver odour to develop
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 08:05:12 AM
      how do you know that...you are stating your opinion as fact..
      my opinion is that they do not accept that..
      if the parents are not suspects then there is no time for cadaver odour to develop

      A nonsensical argument.

      The possibility of her death in the apartment has not been eliminated even by Redwood.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 08:07:20 AM
      A nonsensical argument.

      The possibility of her death in the apartment has not been eliminated even by Redwood.

      redwood has said the parents are not suspects...maddie may have died in the apartment at the hands of a stranger but there would be no time for cadaver odour to develop........
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 08:13:13 AM
      redwood has said the parents are not suspects...maddie may have died in the apartment at the hands of a stranger but there would be no time for cadaver odour to develop........

      If she died in the apartment, you cannot rule out other possibilities.

      There is no forensic evidence of an abduction.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 08:14:28 AM
      If she died in the apartment, you cannot rule out other possibilities.

      There is no forensic evidence of an abduction.

      I haven't ruled anything out..SY have
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 19, 2015, 08:19:22 AM
      What value is your opinion on what Redwood said ?

      When did Redwood say anything about Eddie (or Keela)?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 08:23:43 AM
      When did Redwood say anything about Eddie (or Keela)?

      So why would he say she could have died in the apartment ?

      Magical intuition ?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 08:26:43 AM
      So why would he say she could have died in the apartment ?

      Magical intuition ?

      because it's a possibility...why would he say SY are investigating stranger abduction
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 08:27:59 AM


      Sniffer dog Eddie was relieved of his police duties




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      By Gerard Tubb, Sky News correspondent

      Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.


      The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.

      The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News.

      "There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states.

      "Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."

      The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".

      "There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.


      The review uses a kidnap investigation to highlight how dogs have tied up valuable police time.

      The animals detected human remains in old furniture that had been bought from houses where the owner had died.

      The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years.

      A South Yorkshire Police spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal.

      But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.


      Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.

      The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.

      "The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.

      "This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

      The Association of Chief Police Officers told Sky News it was consulting individual police forces and hoped to have national training standards for the dogs later this year.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 19, 2015, 08:29:06 AM
      So why would he say she could have died in the apartment ?

      Magical intuition ?

      Because of reports of break-ins to apartments in the area.

      Nothing to do with dogs.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 08:39:28 AM
      Because of reports of break-ins to apartments in the area.

      Nothing to do with dogs.

      Unfortunately no evidence which will stand up in court of that.

      and why would they suspect she's dead ?

      and don't forget BHH Freudian slip.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 19, 2015, 08:41:58 AM
      Unfortunately no evidence which will stand up in court of that.


      Eddie's reactions, you mean?

      Aside from the word unfortunately, quite right ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 08:46:54 AM
      Eddie's reactions, you mean?

      Aside from the word unfortunately, quite right ....

      I was referring to either a break in and/or abduction.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 19, 2015, 09:41:07 AM


      Sniffer dog Eddie was relieved of his police duties




      Share on Twitter



      Share on Facebook



      Share on Google+






      Share by email
       

      By Gerard Tubb, Sky News correspondent

      Police sniffer dogs used to find missing people and dead bodies "urgently" need better training and monitoring, according to an official report.


      The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence.

      The NPIA reviewed the use of the specialist sniffer dogs two years ago, but its report has only now surfaced following a request by Sky News.

      "There is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done," the report states.

      "Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers or record keeping of the success rate they achieve."

      The report added the dogs, which are trained to detect the smell of dead bodies, have "the potential to cause complications in an inquiry".

      "There is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment," it concluded.


      The review uses a kidnap investigation to highlight how dogs have tied up valuable police time.

      The animals detected human remains in old furniture that had been bought from houses where the owner had died.

      The use of victim recovery, or cadaver dogs, has proved to be controversial in a number of high-profile cases in recent years.

      A South Yorkshire Police spaniel called Eddie was said to have sniffed out the "scent of death" at the Haut de la Garenne children's home in Jersey and the apartment from which Madeleine McCann disappeared in Portugal.

      But in both cases nothing more was found and South Yorkshire Police say Eddie is no longer working with them.


      Victim recovery dogs from four different police forces were used during searches for kidnapped schoolgirl Shannon Matthews in Dewsbury in West Yorkshire in 2008.

      The dogs found evidence of dead bodies, but officers later discovered the corpses were nothing to do with her disappearance.

      "The properties searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died," according to the NPIA report.

      "This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture."

      The Association of Chief Police Officers told Sky News it was consulting individual police forces and hoped to have national training standards for the dogs later this year.


      Abolition of the NPIA

      https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/98451/fs-nca-npia.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/98451/fs-nca-npia.pdf)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 19, 2015, 10:21:02 AM
      Nope. It is more logical that SY believe that Madeliene is dead but accept there is a possibility she is alive. There is nothing in their statements that contradict that position.

      I am of the opinion they are looking for a live child and hopefully there will be a positive outcome to that.

      If it is confirmed however, that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment on 3rd of May ... it is my opinion that it is important that the perpetrator of the crime is found.

      I agree with the other posters who think that Eddie and Keela have no bearing on the present inquiries being carried out by the PJ and SY.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 10:24:32 AM
      I am of the opinion they are looking for a live child and hopefully there will be a positive outcome to that.

      If it is confirmed however, that Madeleine McCann died in the apartment on 3rd of May ... it is my opinion that it is important that the perpetrator of the crime is found.

      I agree with the other posters who think that Eddie and Keela have no bearing on the present inquiries being carried out by the PJ and SY.

      In the latter sentence, of course you do. You would not say anything else.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 10:32:25 AM
      Thanks Carana, I haven't the time to read through loads of threads right now, can't you just describe what is the difference between alleles and markers?
      I imagine most people have no idea, and unfortunately scientific explanations don't always help.

      The easiest way to think of it is 1 marker = 1 pair of alleles.

      Forensic DNA markers represent the specific sites (locations) used by labs to examine bits of genetic code, which are the alleles.

      At each of these marker locations, there are two alleles (one comes from mummy and the other from daddy). What's confusing is that "marker" is often used to mean the pair of alleles.

      In the UK, they examine 10 marker (locations), i.e. 20 alleles. In PT, they examine 15, i.e., 30 alleles. 


      They "measure" each allele and record its "length" (it's actually the number of times the bit of code repeats iteself). However, as the "length" will be within a tiny range of possibilities, even unrelated people will have a number of alleles of identical "length". In isolation, therefore, there is no way of knowing whether Allele A with an identical "length" (e.g. 9) is yours or mine.

      Now, remember that there should be two alleles at each marker location. While you and I might share an identical Allele A, it is rarer that we will also share an identical Allele B, although that does happen.

      If, at Marker 1, your reading is 7, 9 (the "length" of each of the two alleles) and my reading is also 7, 9, then we happen to share an identical marker.

      So, move on to Marker 2. Your reading is 6, 7 and mine is 8, 9. That clearly differentiates us.

      The problem arises when the sample is degraded (some of the alleles have gone AWOL) and / or contaminated (alleles from several people). You then get a soup of alleles some of which could be yours or could be mine and some that can't belong to either of us. And, evidently, family members will share far more of them than total strangers. And that was the issue in bootgate.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 19, 2015, 10:43:12 AM
      The easiest way to think of it is 1 marker = 1 pair of alleles.

      Forensic DNA markers represent the specific sites (locations) used by labs to examine bits of genetic code, which are the alleles.

      At each of these marker locations, there are two alleles (one comes from mummy and the other from daddy). What's confusing is that "marker" is often used to mean the pair of alleles.

      In the UK, they examine 10 marker (locations), i.e. 20 alleles. In PT, they examine 15, i.e., 30 alleles. 


      They "measure" each allele and record its "length" (it's actually the number of times the bit of code repeats iteself). However, as the "length" will be within a tiny range of possibilities, even unrelated people will have a number of alleles of identical "length". In isolation, therefore, there is no way of knowing whether Allele A with an identical "length" (e.g. 9) is yours or mine.

      Now, remember that there should be two alleles at each marker location. While you and I might share an identical Allele A, it is rarer that we will also share an identical Allele B, although that does happen.

      If, at Marker 1, your reading is 7, 9 (the "length" of each of the two alleles) and my reading is also 7, 9, then we happen to share an identical marker.

      So, move on to Marker 2. Your reading is 6, 7 and mine is 8, 9. That clearly differentiates us.

      The problem arises when the sample is degraded (some of the alleles have gone AWOL) and / or contaminated (alleles from several people). You then get a soup of alleles some of which could be yours or could be mine and some that can't belong to either of us. And, evidently, family members will share far more of them than total strangers. And that was the issue in bootgate.

      Thank you so much for that.  I now feel vaguely able to explain this to someone else.

      But how many Markers does any one person's DNA actually have?  Or can it vary?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 10:48:03 AM
      Background reading............

      https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/human-genome-shrinks-to-only-19-000-genes-21e2d4d5017e
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 19, 2015, 11:22:06 AM
      In the latter sentence, of course you do. You would not say anything else.

                                                            You've got that wrong Stephen.

      If there was evidence to support that Eddie and Keela were as important to the present investigation as some would like them to be ... I would say so.  But there is no danger of that because we have had investigators on the job who are familiar with dogs' ranking in the scheme of things, unlike Mr Amaral.

      The 2007 dogs visit confirmed that Madeleine McCann's remains were not in any of the places they searched.  One would have supposed this might have led to renewed vigour in trying to locate her ... unfortunately for Madeleine and fortunately for whoever took her ... that did not happen.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 11:30:01 AM
                                                            You've got that wrong Stephen.

      If there was evidence to support that Eddie and Keela were as important to the present investigation as some would like them to be ... I would say so.  But there is no danger of that because we have had investigators on the job who are familiar with dogs' ranking in the scheme of things, unlike Mr Amaral.

      The 2007 dogs visit confirmed that Madeleine McCann's remains were not in any of the places they searched.  One would have supposed this might have led to renewed vigour in trying to locate her ... unfortunately for Madeleine and fortunately for whoever took her ... that did not happen.

      No, wrong again.

      The dogs alerts in 2007 didn't confirm one way or the other.

      Try to be accurate.

      Likewise, another forum myth, that Madeleine was not extensively searched for.

      She was.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carlymichelle on September 19, 2015, 11:32:46 AM
      No, wrong again.

      The dogs alerts in 2007 didn't confirm one way or the other.

      Try to be accurate.

      Likewise, another forum myth, that Madeleine was not extensively searched for.

      She was.

      if the dog  findings had not been mad epublic would  the supporters still be  as upset about it  8 years later??  clearly the dog  findings worry them more then they are prepared to let on  imo
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 11:43:59 AM
      if the dog  findings had not been mad epublic would  the supporters still be  as upset about it  8 years later??  clearly the dog  findings worry them more then they are prepared to let on  imo

      and we all know what opinions are worth ...nothing
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on September 19, 2015, 11:47:02 AM
      No, wrong again.

      The dogs alerts in 2007 didn't confirm one way or the other.

      Try to be accurate.

      Likewise, another forum myth, that Madeleine was not extensively searched for.

      She was.

      My post says that ...  "The 2007 dogs visit confirmed that Madeleine McCann's remains were not in any of the places they searched." and I think that is as accurate as one can be.

      In what way did making Madeleine McCann's parents arguidos advance the search for her?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 11:48:13 AM
      My post says that ...  "The 2007 dogs visit confirmed that Madeleine McCann's remains were not in any of the places they searched." and I think that is as accurate as one can be.

      In what way did making Madeleine McCann's parents arguidos advance the search for her?


      In missing children s cases, parents are investigated.

      It's a matter of course.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 11:48:22 AM
      Thank you so much for that.  I now feel vaguely able to explain this to someone else.

      But how many Markers does any one person's DNA actually have?  Or can it vary?

      If you mean bits of genetic code, rather a lot...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genome


      I didn't understand the Lowe report, either, when I first read it. Lowe actually talks about "components", which are the alleles.

      I'm not a scientist, but I was intrigued enough to try to discover what people were talking about. It was obvious that they were getting muddled, but I wasn't sure why.

      Anyway, that is just my understanding of the difference between alleles and markers in the context of the forensic nuclear DNA tests.

      To understand bootgate, perhaps the easiest thing is to think of a Venn diagram, something like this:

      (http://ndstudies.gov/sites/default/file/3_circle_venn.gif)

      That only has 3 circles (DNA contributors), and the actual sample was between 3 and 5 contributors.

      For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that there were 3.

      The central area where all 3 overlap is where Madeleine's components (alleles) were found. However, because it is where the circles overlap, the content is also shared by other circles / contributors. There is therefore no way of knowing whether the shared alleles were actually from Madeleine herself (an invisible extra circle) or simply the combination of those she shared with the others.



      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 11:50:12 AM
      If you mean bits of genetic code, rather a lot...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genome


      I didn't understand the Lowe report, either, when I first read it. Lowe actually talks about "components", which are the alleles.

      I'm not a scientist, but I was intrigued enough to try to discover what people were talking about. It was obvious that they were getting muddled, but I wasn't sure why.

      Anyway, that is just my understanding of the difference between alleles and markers in the context of the forensic nuclear DNA tests.

      To understand bootgate, perhaps the easiest thing is to think of a Venn diagram, something like this:

      (http://ndstudies.gov/sites/default/file/3_circle_venn.gif)

      That only has 3 circles (DNA contributors), and the actual sample was between 3 and 5 contributors.

      For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that there were 3.

      The central area where all 3 overlap is where Madeleine's components (alleles) were found. However, because it is where the circles overlap, the content is also shared by other circles / contributors. There is therefore no way of knowing whether the shared alleles were actually from Madeleine herself (an invisible extra circle) or simply the combination of those she shared with the others.

      Great, now we have Venn diagrams as well.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carlymichelle on September 19, 2015, 11:56:52 AM


      In missing children s cases, parents are investigated.

      It's a matter of course.

      especally   when the parents are the last to see them  ie  kate mcann
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 11:57:45 AM
      Great, now we have Venn diagrams as well.

      Is that an issue?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 19, 2015, 12:00:51 PM
      especally   when the parents are the last to see them  ie  kate mcann

      I hope that isn't an accusation.  Please have a care.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 12:02:56 PM
      If you mean bits of genetic code, rather a lot...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genome


      I didn't understand the Lowe report, either, when I first read it. Lowe actually talks about "components", which are the alleles.

      I'm not a scientist, but I was intrigued enough to try to discover what people were talking about. It was obvious that they were getting muddled, but I wasn't sure why.

      Anyway, that is just my understanding of the difference between alleles and markers in the context of the forensic nuclear DNA tests.

      To understand bootgate, perhaps the easiest thing is to think of a Venn diagram, something like this:

      (http://ndstudies.gov/sites/default/file/3_circle_venn.gif)

      That only has 3 circles (DNA contributors), and the actual sample was between 3 and 5 contributors.

      For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that there were 3.

      The central area where all 3 overlap is where Madeleine's components (alleles) were found. However, because it is where the circles overlap, the content is also shared by other circles / contributors. There is therefore no way of knowing whether the shared alleles were actually from Madeleine herself (an invisible extra circle) or simply the combination of those she shared with the others.

      a very elegant way to describe the situation
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 12:05:03 PM
      Is that an issue?

      Well, what exactly do you intend to achieve with these ?

      Perhaps P( A ∩ B ∩ C )  ???
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 12:07:34 PM
      Well, what exactly do you intend to achieve with these ?

      Perhaps P( A ∩ B ∩ C )  ???

      its very clear what Carana has achieved by her post..I'm surprised you cannot understand it
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 12:09:22 PM
      its very clear what Carana has achieved by her post..I'm surprised you cannot understand it


      Oh dave.

      Wrong again. 8)--))

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: carlymichelle on September 19, 2015, 12:10:22 PM

      Oh dave.

      Wrong again. 8)--))

       8)-))) im sensing  a bit of tension on here today are   you??
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 12:11:02 PM

      Oh dave.

      Wrong again. 8)--))

      if you understood it you would see what she has achieved
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 12:19:42 PM
      if you understood it you would see what she has achieved

      Unfortunately dave, I do know know what Venn diagrams are and when to apply them.

      Next.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 12:28:26 PM
      Unfortunately dave, I do know know what Venn diagrams are and when to apply them.

      Next.

      then you should understand what a stirling job Carana has done
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 12:30:06 PM

      In missing children s cases, parents are investigated.

      It's a matter of course.

      of course they are and quite rightly too
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 01:08:20 PM
      then you should understand what a stirling job Carana has done

      So if I had copied and pasted that, would I have done a sterling job  ? @)(++(*


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 01:12:43 PM
      So if I had copied and pasted that, would I have done a sterling job  ? @)(++(*

      no
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 01:16:56 PM
      no


       @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 01:49:00 PM
      You two.  @)(++(*

      I found a way of understanding the issue as a non-scientist. Some people may find it helpful, others won't.

      If my understanding of the issue is manifestly wrong, then do help by providing a correct explanation in words of one syllable or less in a way that anyone can comprehend.

      Here is what Lowe said in his email:

      A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

      Why - ...

      Well lets look at the question that is being asked

      "Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

      It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

      What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

      Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.


      The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation

      What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling -

      When was the DNA deposited -
      How was the DNA deposited -
      What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from -
      Was a crime committed -

      These, along with all other results, will be formalised in a final report

      Please don't hesitate to contact me if you require any further assistance



      And here is my Venn diagram again:

      (http://ndstudies.gov/sites/default/file/3_circle_venn.gif)




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 01:54:57 PM
      You two.  @)(++(*

      I found a way of understanding the issue as a non-scientist. Some people may find it helpful, others won't.

      If my understanding of the issue is manifestly wrong, then do help by providing a correct explanation in words of one syllable or less in a way that anyone can comprehend.

      Here is what Lowe said in his email:

      A complex LCN DNA result which appeared to have originated from at least three people was obtained from cellular material recovered from the luggage compartment section 286C 2007 CRL10 (2) area 2. Within the DNA profile of Madeline McCann there are 20 DNA components represented by 19 peaks on a chart. At one of the areas of DNA we routinely examine Madeleine has inherited the same DNA component from both parents; this appears therefore as 1 peak rather than 2, hence 19 rather than 20. Of these 19 components 15 are present within the result from this item; there are 37 components in total. There are 37 components because there are at least 3 contributors; but there could be up to five contributors. In my opinion therefore this result is too complex for meaningful interpretation/inclusion.

      Why - ...

      Well lets look at the question that is being asked

      "Is there DNA from Madeline on the swab "

      It would be very simple to say "yes" simply because of the number of components within the result that are also in her reference sample.

      What we need to consider, as scientists, is whether the match is genuine and legitimate; because Madeline has deposited DNA as a result of being in the car or whether Madeline merely appears to match the result by chance. The individual components in Madeline's profile are not unique to her, it is the specific combination of 19 components that makes her profile unique above all others. Elements of Madeline's profile are also present within the the profiles of many of the scientists here in Birmingham, myself included. it's important to stress that 50% of Madeline's profile will be shared with each parent. It is not possible in a mixture of more than two people, to determine or evaluate which specific DNA components pair with each other. Namely, we cannot separate the components out into 3 individual DNA profiles.

      Therefore, we cannot answer the question: is the match genuine or is it a chance match.


      The same applies to any result that is quoted as being too complex for meaningful inclusion/interpretation

      What questions will we never be able to answer with LCN DNA profiling -

      When was the DNA deposited -
      How was the DNA deposited -
      What body fluid(s) does the DIVA originate from -
      Was a crime committed -

      These, along with all other results, will be formalised in a final report

      Please don't hesitate to contact me if you require any further assistance



      And here is my Venn diagram again:

      (http://ndstudies.gov/sites/default/file/3_circle_venn.gif)

       @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 19, 2015, 01:55:57 PM
      ...

      In the UK, they examine 10 marker (locations), i.e. 20 alleles. In PT, they examine 15, i.e., 30 alleles. 

      ...

      Do you have a cite for the second part of that?

      Does this mean that sending samples for DNA testing to the FSS was a waste of time, as the 'evidence' would not be allowed in a Portuguese court, given that it does not meet Portuguese requirements?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 19, 2015, 02:22:58 PM
      Do you have a cite for the second part of that?

      Does this mean that sending samples for DNA testing to the FSS was a waste of time, as the 'evidence' would not be allowed in a Portuguese court, given that it does not meet Portuguese requirements?

      A DNA profile is simply a count of these short tandem repeats at particular locations on the genome. The CODIS database developed by the FBI uses STR at 13 places, and the UK National DNA database uses STR at 10 places.

      from the little I have read no one these forums really understands the DNA evidence. It is further complicated by the fact that some allelles are far more common than others. if maddie had some of these rare allelles then the sample would be more significant...if the allelles were common ..much less significant.


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 02:25:41 PM
      Do you have a cite for the second part of that?

      Does this mean that sending samples for DNA testing to the FSS was a waste of time, as the 'evidence' would not be allowed in a Portuguese court, given that it does not meet Portuguese requirements?

      I have no idea where it has been stated that results would be inadmissible in a Portuguese court per se, other than in blogs and TV pundit "experts". I see no reason why they couldn't be, but simply not submitted as conclusive evidence.


      PT doesn't have (or didn't) the sterile facilities needed for LCN in any case.


      The UK uses 10 (SGM+), the FBI uses 13 and PT (and several other countries) use 15 - again within the context of standard criminal forensic tests. There is also another marker to add to those which simply determines sex.

      On the samples that the INML tested, they used two different kits (not all marker locations are universally used). The INML lab bent over backwards and checked for more... but obviously only on what they were actually given to test with regard to nuclear DNA.




      4-Nuclear DNA study

      After extraction the following genetic markers were studied by PCR:

      - Autosomic STRs: D8S1179, D21S11, D7S820, CSFlPO, D3S1358, HUMTH01, D13S317, D16S539, D2S1338, D19S433, HUMVWA31/A, TPOX, D18S51, D5S818, HUMFIBRA/FGA and Amelogene, using the primers and conditions of amplification suggested in the kit AmpFISTR Identifiler (Applied Bioystems).

      - Autosomic STRs: D3S1358, HUMTH01, D21S11, D18S51, Penta E, D5S818, D13S317, D7S820, D16S539, CSFlPO, Penta D, HUMVWA31/A, D8S1179, TPOX, HUMFIBRA/FGA, and Amelogene using the primers and the conditions of amplification suggested in kit PowerPlex(tm)16 System (Promega).

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm


      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 02:29:47 PM
      A DNA profile is simply a count of these short tandem repeats at particular locations on the genome. The CODIS database developed by the FBI uses STR at 13 places, and the UK National DNA database uses STR at 10 places.

      from the little I have read no one these forums really understands the DNA evidence. It is further complicated by the fact that some allelles are far more common than others. if maddie had some of these rare allelles then the sample would be more significant...if the allelles were common ..much less significant.

      And PT used both Applied Biosytems and Promega kits (with a common core, but also extra ones to potentially detect). But the INML could only work with the samples that they were given and didn't have the capacity to do LCN tests, if needed.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 02:37:00 PM
      A DNA profile is simply a count of these short tandem repeats at particular locations on the genome. The CODIS database developed by the FBI uses STR at 13 places, and the UK National DNA database uses STR at 10 places.

      from the little I have read no one these forums really understands the DNA evidence. It is further complicated by the fact that some allelles are far more common than others. if maddie had some of these rare allelles then the sample would be more significant...if the allelles were common ..much less significant.

      Yes, because they were only looking at standard loci for criminal forensic purposes.

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 02:46:07 PM
      Picking up on a point re legal issues, there is a difference between either party stating that a significant proportion of Madeleine's DNA was present (again with the caveat that such tests are limited) and establishing your identity in a paternity / maternity suit.

      In the former, there is a possibility that you were in a certain location when the swabs were taken.

      But you can't go to court and state that you are definitely the child of X based on a degraded and contaminated sample taken 3 months later from a car boot used by a multitude of people including close family.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 19, 2015, 04:28:02 PM
      Picking up on a point re legal issues, there is a difference between either party stating that a significant proportion of Madeleine's DNA was present (again with the caveat that such tests are limited) and establishing your identity in a paternity / maternity suit.

      In the former, there is a possibility that you were in a certain location when the swabs were taken.

      But you can't go to court and state that you are definitely the child of X based on a degraded and contaminated sample taken 3 months later from a car boot used by a multitude of people including close family.

      The last three words being key.

      Would certainly explain a high number of alike markers (without contribution from the person of key interest, Madeleine ...)
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ShiningInLuz on September 19, 2015, 05:57:10 PM
      I have no idea where it has been stated that results would be inadmissible in a Portuguese court per se, other than in blogs and TV pundit "experts". I see no reason why they couldn't be, but simply not submitted as conclusive evidence.
      The 'inadmissible in a Portuguese court per se" was merely a question my brain invented.

      Let me try this again, if you would be so kind.

      What is the number of matches required within Portugal in order for it have any kind of validity in court?

      If the FSS tried 20, found Madeleine had one duplicate, then 15 out of 19 sounds close (before anyone piles in, I mean in a superficial manner).

      However, if Portugal's standard was 30, and Madeleine still had say, just the 1 duplicate, then 15 out of 29 sounds, at the same superficial level, as a waste of time.

      That was the thinking behind my request for a cite.

      Does Portugal test 15x2 all the time, or a sub-set thereof (pick any 10 from 15), and how far up the stats does it have to go to have any form of legal credibility?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 19, 2015, 06:11:14 PM
      The 'inadmissible in a Portuguese court per se" was merely a question my brain invented.

      Let me try this again, if you would be so kind.

      What is the number of matches required within Portugal in order for it have any kind of validity in court?

      If the FSS tried 20, found Madeleine had one duplicate, then 15 out of 19 sounds close (before anyone piles in, I mean in a superficial manner).

      However, if Portugal's standard was 30, and Madeleine still had say, just the 1 duplicate, then 15 out of 29 sounds, at the same superficial level, as a waste of time.

      That was the thinking behind my request for a cite.

      Does Portugal test 15x2 all the time, or a sub-set thereof (pick any 10 from 15), and how far up the stats does it have to go to have any form of legal credibility?

      I think it has to be a 95% match.  But I could be wrong about this
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 19, 2015, 06:20:39 PM
      I think it has to be a 95% match.  But I could be wrong about this
      Don't all human beings have a 95% DNA match to chimpanzees?  Well some do anyway... @)(++(*
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 06:25:35 PM
      Don't all human beings have a 95% DNA match to chimpanzees?  Well some do anyway... @)(++(*

      Actually Alfred it's approx. 98%

      I did hear once that a chimpanzee called Lucy, had a higher I.Q. than an ex-President of the United States.

      That could be a rumour though. ?{)(**
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 19, 2015, 06:31:19 PM
      Actually Alfred it's approx. 98%

      I did hear once that a chimpanzee called Lucy, had a higher I.Q. than an ex-President of the United States.

      That could be a rumour though. ?{)(**
      The question is - would a dog alert to a chimp cadaver...?  &%+((£
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: stephen25000 on September 19, 2015, 06:36:04 PM
      The question is - would a dog alert to a chimp cadaver...?  &%+((£

      If I remember correctly Chimpanzees have 24 pairs of chromosomes, compared to our 23, but I would imagine maybe apart from a few football players,  @)(++(*, they can be differentiated.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 06:50:54 PM
      The 'inadmissible in a Portuguese court per se" was merely a question my brain invented.

      Let me try this again, if you would be so kind.

      What is the number of matches required within Portugal in order for it have any kind of validity in court?

      If the FSS tried 20, found Madeleine had one duplicate, then 15 out of 19 sounds close (before anyone piles in, I mean in a superficial manner).

      However, if Portugal's standard was 30, and Madeleine still had say, just the 1 duplicate, then 15 out of 29 sounds, at the same superficial level, as a waste of time.

      That was the thinking behind my request for a cite.

      Does Portugal test 15x2 all the time, or a sub-set thereof (pick any 10 from 15), and how far up the stats does it have to go to have any form of legal credibility?

      I'm not sure that I can answer your question, Shining.

      I'd have to check back again, but AFIK, PT courts admitted specks of unidentified human blood as evidence of Joana Cipriano's alleged bloody "fate"... The forensic report doesn't appear to be online, but the fact that no profile appears to have been obtained linking any of the specks to the child seems to have been considered an inconsequential detail.

      ETA: It's up to the various countries to establish the quantity and marker locations they use for criminal forensic purposes. The UK was making noises about moving up to 16 markers ages ago, but I don't know if they have done yet or not.
      .

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 07:29:58 PM
      The 'inadmissible in a Portuguese court per se" was merely a question my brain invented.

      Let me try this again, if you would be so kind.

      What is the number of matches required within Portugal in order for it have any kind of validity in court?

      If the FSS tried 20, found Madeleine had one duplicate, then 15 out of 19 sounds close (before anyone piles in, I mean in a superficial manner).

      However, if Portugal's standard was 30, and Madeleine still had say, just the 1 duplicate, then 15 out of 29 sounds, at the same superficial level, as a waste of time.

      That was the thinking behind my request for a cite.

      Does Portugal test 15x2 all the time, or a sub-set thereof (pick any 10 from 15), and how far up the stats does it have to go to have any form of legal credibility?

      I see your point: 15/19 sounds more interesting than 15/29... but it's all still a matter of probability and in a mixed, degraded sample there's no way of knowing whether the missing alleles are due to degradation or whether they were never there in the first place.

      I tried to see whether the UK had changed their system yet or not... I'm still not sure.

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21626086

      There are other DNA tests possible, btw.

      Forensic DNA research appears to have advanced by leaps and bounds in the past few years, but I haven't really kept up with the latest news.

      The link below is now quite ancient, but it illustrates how different geographical areas concentrated on certain marker locations. I assume that the ethnic mix is a consideration.

      http://www.cstl.nist.gov/biotech/strbase/str_fact.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 08:01:53 PM
      @ Shining

      A thought for the pot that I touched upon earlier.

      If say, for some unlikely reason, I was claiming to be you - that's easy to work out if we both gave uncontaminated mouth swabs. The moment the results show alleles in my profile that aren't in yours, it's established that we aren't the same person.

      However, it's a different kettle of fish to try to establish someone's potential presence at a location at a certain point of time when you are peering into a genetic minestrone in a car boot.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 19, 2015, 08:25:22 PM
      I think it has to be a 95% match.  But I could be wrong about this

      It depends what you're trying to establish.

      You can't be 95% someone's child. Either all the marker components examnined match or they don't. If some don't, then you're not that person's child.

      If you're trying to establish that a victim / or a perp was somewhere at a certain time, I see no reason why one party or the other couldn't try to add that possibility / probability as one factor among others. Depending on the system, the judge might chuck it out or not. The defence for the other side might contest it. Or no one contests it and jurors nod like donkeys.

      People are on death row for far less.





      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 19, 2015, 08:44:24 PM
      It depends what you're trying to establish.

      You can't be 95% someone's child. Either all the marker components examnined match or they don't. If some don't, then you're not that person's child.

      If you're trying to establish that a victim / or a perp was somewhere at a certain time, I see no reason why one party or the other couldn't try to add that possibility / probability as one factor among others. Depending on the system, the judge might chuck it out or not. The defence for the other side might contest it. Or no one contests it and jurors nod like donkeys.

      People are on death row for far less.

      That's what worries me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on September 19, 2015, 11:25:50 PM
      It depends what you're trying to establish.

      You can't be 95% someone's child. Either all the marker components examnined match or they don't. If some don't, then you're not that person's child.

      If you're trying to establish that a victim / or a perp was somewhere at a certain time, I see no reason why one party or the other couldn't try to add that possibility / probability as one factor among others. Depending on the system, the judge might chuck it out or not. The defence for the other side might contest it. Or no one contests it and jurors nod like donkeys.

      People are on death row for far less.

      Surely the part I underline needn't, strictly, be true if there is more than one contributor to the mix?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 20, 2015, 08:53:06 AM
      Surely the part I underline needn't, strictly, be true if there is more than one contributor to the mix?

      If someone is trying to prove paternity, it would help to have tests using clean mouth swabs.

      The situation in bootgate is more ambiguous. In theory, I would have thought that a modern court wouldn't even entertain it as evidence... but then the Cipriano trial was just 10 years ago...

      Another point is that even if there had been all 19 in that soup of 37, it still wouldn't mean that she had ever been in that car... it could easily be that both her parents had touched the same spot while unloading the car one day. And even if it had been her DNA, there are a number of innocuous reasons why it could be there, all of which somewhat more likely than transporting a thawing corpse.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 20, 2015, 09:15:15 AM
      Surely now that the alerts have been proved to be undisputed facts by the Portuguese courts then the Portuguese courts would have to accept them as evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2015, 10:01:21 AM
      Surely now that the alerts have been proved to be undisputed facts by the Portuguese courts then the Portuguese courts would have to accept them as evidence

      I don't think there was ever any doubt that the dogs alerted, was there?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 20, 2015, 10:07:52 AM
      I don't think there was ever any doubt that the dogs alerted, was there?

      there is according to Grime so I will stick with his opinion
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2015, 10:11:59 AM
      there is according to Grime so I will stick with his opinion

      When did Grime say his dogs didn't alert?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Mr Gray on September 20, 2015, 10:14:06 AM
      When did Grime say his dogs didn't alert?

      the question you raised is what did they alert to..grime was asked on two occasions in his rogatory interview to confirm the alert to cadaver odour...he dodged the question on both occasions
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 20, 2015, 11:03:45 AM
      Do you have a cite for the second part of that?

      Does this mean that sending samples for DNA testing to the FSS was a waste of time, as the 'evidence' would not be allowed in a Portuguese court, given that it does not meet Portuguese requirements?

      The only results from the car were via LCN (as there was insufficient DNA), which isn't used in Portugal.

      Rebelo did get the car boot bits retested by the INML when the PJ got them back.



      TRANSLATION BY INES
      15 Processos Vol XV Page 3891
      15VOLUMEXVa_Page_3891
      To: The Director
      INML
      Lisbon

      Ref: NUIPC 201/070 GALGS
      4th Brigade
      Inspector Joao Carlos


      Date: 12th December 2007

      Subject: Request for Forensic Examination


      I am delivering the following to you, a component covered with fibre and a plastic component, both extracted from the luggage boot of the Renault Scenic vehicle used by the parents of Madeleine McCann, material which has already been examined by the forensic lab of the FSS in Birmingham, UK and which was returned to us, requesting your collaboration in the sense of proceeding to carry out the necessary examinations of the material in question, using the appropriate methodology, bearing in mind the detection of eventual biological vestiges that might not have been detected in the first examination that they were subject to.

      With compliments

      The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
      Paulo Rebelo


      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm


      There is only one result that I can find that seems to correspond to the PT test - and which did yield a full DNA profile...


      Table 1 - Autosomic STRs of vestigios.
       01-02 -OUTROS APENSOS I - volume II pages 284-299

      Only it most definitely isn't Madeleine, as it's from a male. And the male isn't Gerry, as in some of the markers, neither allele corresponds to hers. 

      Don't know what happened there. Either the FSS missed it, or the boot piece got contaminated somewhere en route to the INML.




      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: slartibartfast on September 20, 2015, 11:14:48 AM
      the question you raised is what did they alert to..grime was asked on two occasions in his rogatory interview to confirm the alert to cadaver odour...he dodged the question on both occasions

      You seem to be be addressing an issue that wasn't raised. Go on, you are really a politician aren't you.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on September 20, 2015, 11:18:14 AM
      The "undisputed facts" appear to be the basics established during the preliminary phase.


      A preliminary hearing (in 5 sessions) occurred, during which was produced the generic preparatory dispatch that declared the plea valid and regular (3)

      At the same hearing the undisputed facts were established and the instruction basis was structured, the complaint of the claimants being rejected.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 20, 2015, 11:25:01 AM
      The only results from the car were via LCN (as there was insufficient DNA), which isn't used in Portugal.

      Rebelo did get the car boot bits retested by the INML when the PJ got them back.



      TRANSLATION BY INES
      15 Processos Vol XV Page 3891
      15VOLUMEXVa_Page_3891
      To: The Director
      INML
      Lisbon

      Ref: NUIPC 201/070 GALGS
      4th Brigade
      Inspector Joao Carlos


      Date: 12th December 2007

      Subject: Request for Forensic Examination


      I am delivering the following to you, a component covered with fibre and a plastic component, both extracted from the luggage boot of the Renault Scenic vehicle used by the parents of Madeleine McCann, material which has already been examined by the forensic lab of the FSS in Birmingham, UK and which was returned to us, requesting your collaboration in the sense of proceeding to carry out the necessary examinations of the material in question, using the appropriate methodology, bearing in mind the detection of eventual biological vestiges that might not have been detected in the first examination that they were subject to.

      With compliments

      The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
      Paulo Rebelo


      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm


      There is only one result that I can find that seems to correspond to the PT test - and which did yield a full DNA profile...


      Table 1 - Autosomic STRs of vestigios.
       01-02 -OUTROS APENSOS I - volume II pages 284-299

      Only it most definitely isn't Madeleine, as it's from a male. And the male isn't Gerry, as in some of the markers, neither allele corresponds to hers. 

      Don't know what happened there. Either the FSS missed it, or the boot piece got contaminated somewhere en route to the INML.

      I don’t recall how many contributors of the DNA samples were taken from the car or the floor tiles. Over 3?   If  however, they shared some of Madeleine’s DNA It could make up to a complete DNA match for Madeleine, without her DNA profile ever being involved.
      A waste of time to even consider the possibility of it being her DNA, in a mixed or degenerated sample, IMO.

      Especially the car which would have many of the same DNA elements matching her profile, due to it being occupied by her parents, siblings and other relatives.
      She had  at least 1 gene from each of their parents and would share genes with the twins and relatives


      I read about a person being sought in connection with multiple crimes where DNA results were  obtained via mouth  swabs……The DNA turned out to belong to someone who worked in the cotton swab factory.
      Just pointing out the power of contamination as well.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 20, 2015, 11:43:26 AM
      I do wonder what would have happened if Amaral had not been ejected from the case...........Scary or what?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2015, 11:52:47 AM
      the question you raised is what did they alert to..grime was asked on two occasions in his rogatory interview to confirm the alert to cadaver odour...he dodged the question on both occasions

      No I didn't. I was replying to your post below. No mention of what they alerted to, just that they alerted, which is 'an undisputed fact'.

      Surely now that the alerts have been proved to be undisputed facts by the Portuguese courts then the Portuguese courts would have to accept them as evidence
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 20, 2015, 12:16:16 PM
      No I didn't. I was replying to your post below. No mention of what they alerted to, just that they alerted, which is 'an undisputed fact'.

      No, that is not an undisputed fact.  It is very much disputed.  The only undisputed fact is that it was said.
      I simply do not understand why you can't see this.

      But probably pointless to try to explain.  It is a Point of Law that escapes most people.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 20, 2015, 12:17:41 PM
      If he hadn't misinterpreted the dogs findings and the FSS results, it would be finished.....No evidence and no media untruths.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: G-Unit on September 20, 2015, 12:32:42 PM
      No, that is not an undisputed fact.  It is very much disputed.  The only undisputed fact is that it was said.
      I simply do not understand why you can't see this.

      But probably pointless to try to explain.  It is a Point of Law that escapes most people.

      Davel said 'now that  the alerts have been proved to be undisputed facts'. I said it was never in dispute that the alerts happened. What davel probably meant was something else. but that's not what he said. I was being precise about what davel said, he missed a bit out.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on September 20, 2015, 12:33:18 PM
      If he hadn't misinterpreted the dogs findings and the FSS results, it would be finished.....No evidence and no media untruths.

      Tis a bit more complicated than that, Anna.  Things were being leaked by a leading investigator who had his own agenda.  And we will never know whether or not he believed his  own misinterpretations.  Or even what his own agenda was.
      Except for his Book, of course.

      I blame The Salazar Regime, under which Amaral grew up, poor soul.  The PJ were absolute, and no one ever questioned them, least of all The Portuguese Courts.

      It is a very sorry tale of which Amaral is ultimately a victim.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Anna on September 20, 2015, 01:10:05 PM
      If these untruths hadn’t been reported by the investigator who misinterpreted the findings……which proved nothing, I might add. Who else apart from those involved in the case, could be responsible for DNA and dogs, media reports? Judicial secrecy my bum! 
      And now the latest investigations are not leaking as much as a drip.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Montclair on October 16, 2015, 04:35:53 PM
      If these untruths hadn’t been reported by the investigator who misinterpreted the findings……which proved nothing, I might add. Who else apart from those involved in the case, could be responsible for DNA and dogs, media reports? Judicial secrecy my bum! 
      And now the latest investigations are not leaking as much as a drip.

      Which investigator are you referring to? You seem to forget that this investigation was the work of more than one coordinator. BTW, most people agree that it was the late Guilhermino da Encarnação who was responsible for the leaks.

      No matter what, you will never believe that there was evidence against the McCanns.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on October 16, 2015, 08:35:26 PM
      Which investigator are you referring to? You seem to forget that this investigation was the work of more than one coordinator. BTW, most people agree that it was the late Guilhermino da Encarnação who was responsible for the leaks.

      No matter what, you will never believe that there was evidence against the McCanns.

      Wot?  The Big Chief was doing the leaking?  You have really shocked me now.  Lies and distortions right from the top.  What a shower.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Alice Purjorick on October 16, 2015, 08:44:54 PM
      Wot?  The Big Chief was doing the leaking?  You have really shocked me now.  Lies and distortions right from the top.  What a shower.

      I suppose the galling thing to some is that the "shower's" apprentices are now in charge and have primacy.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on October 16, 2015, 09:04:32 PM
      Admittedly when Rebello took over, Encarnação and Amaral were both off the scene.

      But Rebello ran a pretty tight ship ...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on October 16, 2015, 09:19:00 PM
      Wot?  The Big Chief was doing the leaking?  You have really shocked me now.  Lies and distortions right from the top.  What a shower.

      We are completely off-topic, now, of course, but I have never been convinced that this, from the record of the Portuguese forensic laboratory indicates other than that Amaral was personally, and directly, behind the most scandalous leak of the shelved investigation: Gerry not Madeleine's father

      As it is necessary to the investigation we request the following:

      1. Whether in the tests done by the INML Madeleine's profile was established?

      2. In the case of a positive answer to point 1, that it should be determined whether the girl is the daughter of the parents identified ? Gerald Patrick McCann and Kate Healy.

      3. Information about whether the profile obtained by the INML corresponds to the profile traced in the English laboratory, on the request of the British authorities.

      4. If there are differences between the English and Portuguese profiles that a report should be drawn up for this inquiry.

      5. In the follow-up of point 4, we request to be informed whether in the English profile the girl is the daughter of the McCann couple.

      6. Other information that might be of use to the investigation.

      Signed G. Amaral
      09-Processos Vol IX Page 2419


      And the bewildered response:

      Vol IX Page 2419

      Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral

      22-08-2007

      Reply to Queries

      - We inform you that none of the samples received by this institute were designated as supposedly belonging to the missing girl and we therefore, cannot reply to this query.


      A short while later, the canard broke ....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on October 16, 2015, 10:36:56 PM
      Can you at least let readers decide for themselves what any file means or doesn't mean and not selectively quote from it, but put the FULL text in, if it's not too much trouble, including the link so as the whole context can be seen

      09-Processos Vol IX Page 2419

      Vol IX Page 2419

      Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral

      22-08-2007

      Reply to Queries

      - We inform you that none of the samples received by this institute were designated as supposedly belonging to the missing girl and we therefore, cannot reply to this query.


      - Samples were studied - hair and a piece of cloth - nuclear DNA profiles only being obtained from 4 samples, which upon comparison with the DNA profiles of Kate and Gerry, could not belong to the girl.

      - The samples were then studied using mitochondrial DNA analysis, the same was done for the other samples, giving the results in accordance with our report of 9th July No. 2007/000226 LX-BC.

      - As requested in point 5, it was determined that the profile obtained by the British lab could belong to a son/daughter of the McCanns.

      - The comparison of the profiles obtained in autossomic STR from Kate and Gerry McCann with the profile obtained was carried out.
      Signed

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: ferryman on October 17, 2015, 08:21:29 AM
      Can you at least let readers decide for themselves what any file means or doesn't mean and not selectively quote from it, but put the FULL text in, if it's not too much trouble, including the link so as the whole context can be seen

      09-Processos Vol IX Page 2419

      Vol IX Page 2419

      Reply from the Forensics Institute (INML) to Goncalo Amaral

      22-08-2007

      Reply to Queries

      - We inform you that none of the samples received by this institute were designated as supposedly belonging to the missing girl and we therefore, cannot reply to this query.


      - Samples were studied - hair and a piece of cloth - nuclear DNA profiles only being obtained from 4 samples, which upon comparison with the DNA profiles of Kate and Gerry, could not belong to the girl.

      - The samples were then studied using mitochondrial DNA analysis, the same was done for the other samples, giving the results in accordance with our report of 9th July No. 2007/000226 LX-BC.

      - As requested in point 5, it was determined that the profile obtained by the British lab could belong to a son/daughter of the McCanns.

      - The comparison of the profiles obtained in autossomic STR from Kate and Gerry McCann with the profile obtained was carried out.
      Signed

      http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm

      Dear oh dear.

      Weren't the FSS accused of contaminating DNA samples?

      Didn't that derive from John Lowe commenting that certain markers in Madeleine's DNA profile were the same as markers from the profiles of workers at the FSS, including himself?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Eleanor on October 19, 2015, 09:44:35 AM

      Can we get back on topic, please.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Carana on October 19, 2015, 03:11:23 PM
      Which investigator are you referring to? You seem to forget that this investigation was the work of more than one coordinator. BTW, most people agree that it was the late Guilhermino da Encarnação who was responsible for the leaks.

      No matter what, you will never believe that there was evidence against the McCanns.

      Who is "most people"?

      Although he did seem to take an interest in the case, he had rather a lot on his plate as chief coordinator for Faro and becoming very ill.

      Easy to blame the leaks on someone who is no longer around...
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on October 19, 2015, 09:45:03 PM
      Dear oh dear.

      Weren't the FSS accused of contaminating DNA samples?

      Didn't that derive from John Lowe commenting that certain markers in Madeleine's DNA profile were the same as markers from the profiles of workers at the FSS, including himself?

      I answered this, I don't know why my post has disappeared, if  it was off topic then so is yours, but yours remains...so not only is reply censored but off topic posts remain whilst my off topic was removed....not level playing field surely, so unfair or just lazy maybe which is understandable lol
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 02:00:19 AM
      I just read a welsh article stating that SY took 4 dogs to PDL.
      Strange, all the press photos of the publicised search sites there show only 2 of them.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 02:09:21 AM
      It could be a journalistic error, but if it's true there were 4, how come day after day we saw only 2?

      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 02:11:40 AM
      It could be a journalistic error, but if it's true there were 4, how come day after day we saw only 2?

      Because. No one cares anymore? Why would anyone?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: puglove on October 28, 2015, 02:16:40 AM


      What breaks my heart is that Maddie trusted her mum to look after her, and care for her. And it didn't happen. And no amount of hand-holding, and Lorraine, and Crimewatch, and make-up and hair will convince me.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 02:22:18 AM
      What breaks my heart is that Maddie trusted her mum to look after her, and care for her. And it didn't happen. And no amount of hand-holding, and Lorraine, and Crimewatch, and make-up and hair will convince me.

      Its sad and true isnt it

      her mum left her at risk
      Dads as much to blame,  but mums, well, they fret more, no excuse whatsoever in any month of sundays for not taking all necessary precautions and it seems they took none whatsoever
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: Brietta on October 28, 2015, 02:26:52 AM
      What breaks my heart is that Maddie trusted her mum to look after her, and care for her. And it didn't happen. And no amount of hand-holding, and Lorraine, and Crimewatch, and make-up and hair will convince me.

      Convince you of what?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: misty on October 28, 2015, 02:27:37 AM
      I just read a welsh article stating that SY took 4 dogs to PDL.
      Strange, all the press photos of the publicised search sites there show only 2 of them.

      Daily Express

      Met Police to send sniffer dogs to shop where man with Madeleine McCann lookalike was seen

      SCOTLAND Yard detectives want to send sniffer dogs into a shop where a man with a Madeleine McCann lookalike was seen around the time she vanished.

      By: Gerard Couzens
      Published: Fri, July 4, 2014
      Officers fired off more than 250 questions at the four suspects, who include a 51-year-old heroin addict and 38-year-old ex Ocean Club worker.
      *snippe*
      They asked them: "Did you kill Madeleine?", and "Did You Hide Her Body?"

      Afterwards two South Wales sniffer dogs similar to ones employed in ground searches in Praia da Luz last month swept one suspect's mum's car for any evidence Madeleine had been in it.

      No evidence linking the vehicle to Madeleine was found and the police quizzes are not thought to have yielded any bombshell information.

      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Doesn't say if they were cadaver dogs or not.
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 02:35:00 AM
      Fascinatng.....
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 03:43:52 AM
      Daily Express

      Met Police to send sniffer dogs to shop where man with Madeleine McCann lookalike was seen

      SCOTLAND Yard detectives want to send sniffer dogs into a shop where a man with a Madeleine McCann lookalike was seen around the time she vanished.

      By: Gerard Couzens
      Published: Fri, July 4, 2014
      Officers fired off more than 250 questions at the four suspects, who include a 51-year-old heroin addict and 38-year-old ex Ocean Club worker.
      *snippe*
      They asked them: "Did you kill Madeleine?", and "Did You Hide Her Body?"

      Afterwards two South Wales sniffer dogs similar to ones employed in ground searches in Praia da Luz last month swept one suspect's mum's car for any evidence Madeleine had been in it.

      No evidence linking the vehicle to Madeleine was found and the police quizzes are not thought to have yielded any bombshell information.

      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Doesn't say if they were cadaver dogs or not.
      Thanks Misty.
      The SY ground searches using 2 dogs were June 2nd to 11th 2014.
      The article you posted says SY also had two other dogs there early July 2014.
      All 4 dogs were trained for the same thing IMO. 
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 03:53:50 AM
      Fascinatng.....
      Here are all 4 dogs
      http://i4.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article8461067.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/snifferdogs.jpg
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on October 28, 2015, 04:10:21 AM
      Tito and Mizzy went there early Jun 2014, and Badger and Spud early Jul 2014?
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dog
      Post by: mercury on October 28, 2015, 04:24:31 AM

      Here are all 4 dogs
      http://i4.walesonline.co.uk/incoming/article8461067.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/snifferdogs.jpg

      I was being sarcarstic to misty as thats the  language he speaks in
      Title: Re: Amaral and the dogs
      Post by: pegasus on October 30, 2015, 09:51:36 PM
      Someone on twitter was claiming that 4 welsh dogs went in Jun 2014 and implied that as only 2 were seen at the wasteland / watertreatment / krugel sites, the other 2 were probably doing unpublicised sites. But IMO that is incorrect.

      However what about the site close to the apartment, between Rua 1 Maio and Rua Escola?
      Press reports said initially SY were going to search there - but then nothing happened.