So what actual searching was there?

[lordpookles]

IMO it is utterly unbelievable that both - not just one - but both parents just by sheer coincidence happened to have exemplary acting abilities on a par with oscar winning actors who make a living out of that skill.   

In fact so much so that everyone - including family liason officers, counsellors etc etc etc were completely taken in by their brilliant performances day in day out.

Apparently even though Matt's intervention could have completely ruined their plan - it didn't phase them in the slightest - and they just carried on as normal as if nothing untoward had just happened  - or was about to happen - if Matt had discovered Madeleine was missing.

Too daft for words IMO.

Anyone who thinks that the McCanns could stroll off to dinner and behave completely normally after what they are alleged to have just done to their own daughter -  has no ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes IMO.    IOW - no empathy.

No need to go throwing around allegations saying people who believe this is possible have no empathy! Rather a blanket statement. If the McCanns have no empathy why would this not be possible? And when people need to they can lie/act very well.

[lordpookles]

You can't convince me that two people can be laughing and enjoying a night out and then become desperate despairing parents as all the friends and others witnessed.   Kate and Gerry were complete wrecks,  that just can't be switched on like that.

As to Matthew finding Madeleine,  that would somehow defeat the point about what another poster said about the McCann's not wanting an autopsy on the body.

Why not? If you had done something sinister, you could channel that fear of capture into portraying those panicked/fearful emotions. I'm playing devil's advocate to some extent, because I think they are genuine, but see no reason why this wouldn't be possible. Tia Sharpe's step dad and Ian Huntley acted very normal on camera imo or at least as one would expect an innocent person to act - tears or appearance of tears on one hand and a relaxed attitude on the other. Also, in a situation like this would close friends/relatives be the least likely to question you? My imo is they would be.

[G-Unit]

How would they know a hiding place where the body would not be found?   They were holidaying there for the week not living there.

Kate mentioned the unlocked door,  but that was just a part of a conversation,   she ate her dinner and enjoyed her evening up to the point when she discovered Madeleine was missing.

How do you know they didn't explore the area thoroughly while jogging? How do you know she ate her dinner and enjoyed her evening? The others said they behaved normally, but we don't know what their normal behaviour was.

[Lace]

How do you know they didn't explore the area thoroughly while jogging? How do you know she ate her dinner and enjoyed her evening? The others said they behaved normally, but we don't know what their normal behaviour was.

So whilst out jogging they were making notes as to where they would hide their daughters body should she have an accident!!

I know she ate her dinner as the waiter said,  there was only one plate which had remnants of food and that was the steak.

[ShiningInLuz]

According to this a pack of the critters was rounded up at some point prior to 2010 - maybe they were still there in 2007?  http://portugalresident.com/dog-fouling-in-luz

Thank you for the link, as it contains a small nugget of pure gold.

Re the tale, I am somewhat sceptical.  I've no doubt the part about '3 bins, only 1 on the promenade' is correct.

However ...

Every time I have visited the front, either physically or on the webcam, shortly after dawn, there is a cleaning crew in action, collecting rubbish from the promenade and the beach.  Including pooh.

There are numerous signs up saying dogs are not permitted on the beach.  But my early morning visits (physical) invariably place dog-walkers on the beach, always with the dogs off the leads, typically more than one dog per walker, and typically the dog walkers socialise with each other while their 'pack' romps freely if it wishes.

Throw into the mix the large number of dog sanctuaries on the Algarve, each of which will come and round-up strays upon a single phone call.

So a 'wild' dog 'pack' running on the streets for any length of time is unlikely.

So where is this pooh coming from?  As I have said it is normal to walk dogs off the lead here, whether there are people around or not.  Those dogs pooh.  And in the main, dog owners do not bother to clean up after their dogs.

Combine that with a lack of bins, and pooh would lie around during the day, until early morning the following day, when the cleaning crew would ...

Assuming the McCanns went to the beach in the early morning, they should have seen dog-walkers, cleaning crew, and folks enjoying their early morning constitutional.  Personally, I have never made it down there and been the only person.

Maybe the other folks were sleeping-in after a long night searching?

[Alice Purjorick]

Of course deflection is much easier than actually attempting to substantiate the view that many people have attempted to save their skins by covering up the death of a beloved child -far, far easier.

It is not deflection of any kind. Your argument to defeat my argument, simply put is "You cannot demonstrate it has happened before therefore it cannot happen" you are not alone in that form of argument on here.
It is a manifestly preposterous method of argument. "If it’s beyond what we think can happen/will happen, then we act as though it never can happen".
But if it makes you happy and you think you have proved your point by its utilisation then I am happy for you.

[Alice Purjorick]

some of us do not have to google ...we know how unlikely a child is to die in  an accident in an apartment such as 5a....we know how the GMC works...we know that the idea the McCanns covered up an accident is ridiculous

Another one of the "You can't show it happened before therefore it cannot happen, brigade".
Your post is not relevant to what I said. You are merely thumping worn out old tubs.

[Alice Purjorick]

So they concocted an abduction story for self preservation.    Instead of coming forward if Madeleine had an accident,  instead they pretended that a stranger came in and took their child,   a stranger who could be a Paedophile who murdered her.

Actually the fate of having an accident and dying in the apartment is a much better fate that being abducted by who knows who for who knows what.   

How can you say that saying their child was abducted was better than saying she'd had an accident,  which could have been palmed off with them saying she'd had the accident just before they had gone out for dinner,  which would only have been an hour or so before Gerry's check?

I didn't say that.

[slartibartfast]

How do you know they didn't explore the area thoroughly while jogging? How do you know she ate her dinner and enjoyed her evening? The others said they behaved normally, but we don't know what their normal behaviour was.

We don't know how they fitted into the dynamic of the group? Yes, they are now the famous members of the group as far as the world views them, but there are some indications that they were not the centre of the group and may not have been centre of attention. We just don't know how much notice the rest of the group took.

[Lace]

Why not? If you had done something sinister, you could channel that fear of capture into portraying those panicked/fearful emotions. I'm playing devil's advocate to some extent, because I think they are genuine, but see no reason why this wouldn't be possible. Tia Sharpe's step dad and Ian Huntley acted very normal on camera imo or at least as one would expect an innocent person to act - tears or appearance of tears on one hand and a relaxed attitude on the other. Also, in a situation like this would close friends/relatives be the least likely to question you? My imo is they would be.

I don't think Tia Sharpes step dad behaved normally,  he went AWOL didn't he drinking and behaving quite weirdly.   When faced with the cameras he could play the concerned step dad couldn't he.  The McCann's went from normal behaviour to absolute melt down.

Ian Huntley of course was not the childrens dad.

[slartibartfast]

One comment, if you know any retired Police Officers, have a chat with them and you will find out what people are capable of.

[Alice Purjorick]

What I don't understand Alice,   is,  are you saying Madeleine died before the alert?   Are you saying Madeleine died before they went for dinner?   If so an accident happened the McCann's would have been in the apartment at the time and therefore why cover it up?

What I am saying is there are all sorts of possibilities for a three year old child to vanish into thin air never to be seen or heard of in the following eight years.
I can't begin to second guess people's thought processes and motivation.

[Alice Purjorick]

One comment, if you know any retired Police Officers, have a chat with them and you will find out what people are capable of.

Indeed!
And to a man/woman the guilty parties were always "such lovely neighbours".

[G-Unit]

Indeed!
And to a man/woman the guilty parties were always "such lovely neighbours".

Harold Shipman was very well thought of;

The consultants liked him. He got on well with his colleagues. The patients absolutely couldn't ever say a bad thing about him,'' she said.
''They felt calm and comfortable with him and knew that he was looking after them properly. He was always professional, always, and you always felt at ease with him. He'd have a smile with them, a little joke with them, but professional to his fingertips.''
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10771151/Harold-Shipman-was-a-good-doctor-says-victims-son.html

[ShiningInLuz]

Many years ago in my town it was common practice for owners to allow their dogs to run free.  Not nearly the road traffic we have now.  It was common to encounter packs particularly if there was an in-season bitch on the loose.


**Snip
One Portuguese journalist suggested to me that they might have hidden her on a scrubby headland a few minutes' walk away.
But as I found when I attempted to go for a run there, at night it is inhabited by feral dogs, whose barking would have made the digging of some putative shallow grave impossible.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-482007/Lies-beatings-secret-trials-dark-police-handling-Madeleine-case.html#ixzz3ryo6iZhi

This is the same place, just east of Luz and below the hilltop.

That link was very interesting, and has to be the best article I've seen from the Mail.

My objection is that digging a grave here makes a lot of noise, so dogs barking would mask that.  But the reporter doesn't know that it is nigh well impossible to dig a grave manually, as SY discovered.  Since the site only applies to the McCanns (on foot, not a lot of time), it also has to be rejected on the grounds that the McCanns did not have a digging tool, such as a spade.

As an aside, tourists sit on the front, look at that hill, and comment on how easy it would be to hide a body around Luz.  If only they knew the truth.