So what actual searching was there?

[pegasus]

Is there any complete evidence that the child was not in the apartment when the first GNR pair arrived there?

[G-Unit]

Is there any complete evidence that the child was not in the apartment when the first GNR pair arrived there?

If she was, why was she and what happened next?

[pegasus]

If she was, why was she and what happened next?

Answering your Why? question. If you know someone was at premises X at 9.10 and there is no complete evidence of having left before 11.10 then the default is still there at 11.10 and anything else is just assumption.

[misty]

Why? If you know someone was at premises X at 9.10 and there is no complete evidence of having left before 11.10 then the default is still there at 11.10 and anything else is just assumption.

She wasn't seen.
She wasn't heard.
She wasn't discovered in any of the places people looked.
She doesn't appear in any of the crime scene photos.
If she was still in the apartment after 11.10 it was the responsibility of the police to find her.

[pegasus]

She wasn't seen.
She wasn't heard.
She wasn't discovered in any of the places people looked.
She doesn't appear in any of the crime scene photos.
If she was still in the apartment after 11.10 it was the responsibility of the police to find her.

5 good points and not only in this case Misty.

[pathfinder73]

For me, the fact that Eddie did not alert in the kids' bedroom, and if his alert was correct to the toy, means the toy was in another room to be contaminated with cadaver scent...probably the parent's room where the other alert was

Or this:

Subsequently a diary written by the suspect was alert indicated by the dog. The diary had written extracts that the
offender had laid the victim on the carpet whilst dead, the diary had in fact been written by the suspect having handled the body. (MG)

[ShiningInLuz]

IMO explanation (2) is best.
Anyone got a similar explanation for the voice calls at 2314 and 2317 ?

OK, I'll stick my head over the parapet.  If this has been done to death of the forum already, just point me at it and put me out of my misery.

I'm fairly sure that the collective "we", the entire forum, haggled timescale to death and came up with the GNR arriving at 5A at around 23:00.  Gerry in the police car, Kate in the apartment.  If I have got this bit wrong, then it's an easy correction.

Voice calls from Gerry to Kate in that scenario, around 23:15 make no sense whatsoever.  We would be in the land of Gerry calling Kate twice within 5A, while the GNR was in 5A.  I'm going to dump that one.

My next option is Gerry out searching rather than checking on what was happening with the police.  Personally, I'm going to dump that option too.

That leaves me with Gerry going down to OC reception to see what was happening with the police.  After that, it is a bit of a guess, but roughly it goes like this.  Gerry to Kate - the police have been called.  Followed by Gerry to Kate - the police are here - possibly with - we're on our way to 5A now.

[G-Unit]

OK, I'll stick my head over the parapet.  If this has been done to death of the forum already, just point me at it and put me out of my misery.

I'm fairly sure that the collective "we", the entire forum, haggled timescale to death and came up with the GNR arriving at 5A at around 23:00.  Gerry in the police car, Kate in the apartment.  If I have got this bit wrong, then it's an easy correction.

Voice calls from Gerry to Kate in that scenario, around 23:15 make no sense whatsoever.  We would be in the land of Gerry calling Kate twice within 5A, while the GNR was in 5A.  I'm going to dump that one.

My next option is Gerry out searching rather than checking on what was happening with the police.  Personally, I'm going to dump that option too.

That leaves me with Gerry going down to OC reception to see what was happening with the police.  After that, it is a bit of a guess, but roughly it goes like this.  Gerry to Kate - the police have been called.  Followed by Gerry to Kate - the police are here - possibly with - we're on our way to 5A now.

The GNR said they arrived at 2300. Then they listened to the story. Then they drove to the apartment. iIsuppose all that could have taken 20 minutes? According to Silvia Batista she walked from G5A to reception when she heard the GNR had arrived. Gerry and friend followed her.



On the 3rd May he arrived at the resort in P da L at about 23.00, accompanied by officer Roque.

They went to the OC reception.

At that moment Madeleine’s father arrived at the reception and informed them of the events.

After having found out what happened, he went to the exact place Madeleine had disappeared from, accompanied by Roque, the girl’s father and a woman who was acting as interpreter, whose name he does not remember and another individual, a friend of the girl’s father, whose name he does not recall.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NELSON-DA-COSTA-1.htm

After she arrived she went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.
When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was
Gerry, Madeleine's father, accompanied by another man whose identity she doesn't remember.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/SILVIA_BATISTA.htm

[pegasus]

At 22:52 the GNR car was passing through Valverde on the outskirts of PDL.
(Sources: Portugal Telecom data, Roque statement, Costa statement).
That 22.52 time is definite.
Therefore the GNR car arrived at 24hr reception on Rua Direita at about 22.56 IMO.
Allow a few minutes there to briefly talk to the father.
Then the GNR drive with GM and MO in car to 5A.
So the GNR arrive at 5A at or before about 23:05 IMO.
The 2 voice calls are at 23:14 and 23:17

[ShiningInLuz]

At 22:52 the GNR car was passing through Valverde on the outskirts of PDL.
(Sources: Portugal Telecom data, Roque statement, Costa statement).
That 22.52 time is definite.
Therefore the GNR car arrived at 24hr reception on Rua Direita at about 22.56 IMO.
Allow a few minutes there to briefly talk to the father.
Then the GNR drive with GM and MO in car to 5A.
So the GNR arrive at 5A at or before about 23:05 IMO.
The 2 voice calls are at 23:14 and 23:17

Fair enough.  I had my stab at it.

So what's your take?

[John]

More on the deleted call records.

"...what was her reason for deleting three of the four calls, between 23.14 and 23.17, from her husband on that critical night?."

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/more-on-deleted-call-records.html

[Lace]

More on the deleted call records.

"...what was her reason for deleting three of the four calls, between 23.14 and 23.17, from her husband on that critical night?."

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/more-on-deleted-call-records.html

Three calls all in the space of three minutes.    Could be 'any sign of her Gerry?'       'have you looked here'   'no she hasn't come back to the apartment'   

[ShiningInLuz]

More on the deleted call records.

"...what was her reason for deleting three of the four calls, between 23.14 and 23.17, from her husband on that critical night?."

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2008/12/more-on-deleted-call-records.html

I haven't reached the relevant call data page in my translation of the phone records, so the following is provisional.

There are two entries from Gerry to Kate timed at 23:14:49 with a duration of 6 seconds and 23:14:51 with a duration of 8 seconds.  These overlap, so there cannot be two calls.  Either the records are in error, or this is a case of a single call going through 2 operators, each recording slightly different data.

There are two entries from Gerry to Kate timed at 23:17:04 duration 29 seconds and 23:17:06 duration 31 seconds.  As in the first pair, the start time of the call is off by 2 seconds and the duration is off by 2 seconds.

In the build up to the analysis, the inspector explains that if a call goes through two operators in Luz (say Vodaphone and Optimus) it can show up twice, due to each operator reporting a slightly different time.

So, I make this 2 calls, not 4.  I take it that arguments about what Kate did or not did not delete are in some previous thread, so I won't go there.

The issue remains the timing.  On the model that has been built here, both Gerry and Kate at 23:15 to 23:17 should be in apartment 5A, discussing the disappearance with 2 GNR officers and with Silvia Batista translating.

The 2 calls suggest that this model is not accurate.

[G-Unit]

I haven't reached the relevant call data page in my translation of the phone records, so the following is provisional.

There are two entries from Gerry to Kate timed at 23:14:49 with a duration of 6 seconds and 23:14:51 with a duration of 8 seconds.  These overlap, so there cannot be two calls.  Either the records are in error, or this is a case of a single call going through 2 operators, each recording slightly different data.

There are two entries from Gerry to Kate timed at 23:17:04 duration 29 seconds and 23:17:06 duration 31 seconds.  As in the first pair, the start time of the call is off by 2 seconds and the duration is off by 2 seconds.

In the build up to the analysis, the inspector explains that if a call goes through two operators in Luz (say Vodaphone and Optimus) it can show up twice, due to each operator reporting a slightly different time.

So, I make this 2 calls, not 4.  I take it that arguments about what Kate did or not did not delete are in some previous thread, so I won't go there.

The issue remains the timing.  On the model that has been built here, both Gerry and Kate at 23:15 to 23:17 should be in apartment 5A, discussing the disappearance with 2 GNR officers and with Silvia Batista translating.

The 2 calls suggest that this model is not accurate.

Here's what Matthew Oldfield said;

But, erm, we were there about sort of eleven, ten past eleven when the GNR sort of Police arrived and there was two of them in a Police car. Somebody's asked whether the siren was on and I think the lights were flashing but I don't remember, and I may have heard the siren in the distance, but I can't recall. So they arrived just about five minutes after Gerry and I had been there. And one of the cleaning ladies I think came to translate, I think this is Sylvia or Sylvie, I'm not sure, but she was there helping, you know, saying, this is, you know, this is the father. And they put him in the car and drove back up to the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm

If it was 2310 when the GNR arrived, it may work then?

[pegasus]

Fair enough.  I had my stab at it.

So what's your take?

The second phonecall call to GNR station ends at 22.53.40.
Then the GNR station radios the car.
So the car is passing through Valverde at 22.54
How many minutes to drive fast Valverde to 24hr reception ?
And how many minutes to drive 24hr reception to 5A ?