So what actual searching was there?

[Brietta]

It is impossible to make an accurate analysis of phone records which have been re-typed into Excel & are also incomplete. Doesn't the lack of phone traffic immediately after 22.51 on Greentrust records seem strange?
Helder probably did call the GNR using another line. It is probably in the full record of emergency calls that night - which is why the PJ never pursued that anomaly in his statement & the timeline.

Just posted about you and that analytical mind ... looks like I got it spot on.  Time for me to butt out in this conversation and let you two anoraks get on with it.

[misty]

Just posted about you and that analytical mind ... looks like I got it spot on.  Time for me to butt out in this conversation and let you two anoraks get on with it.

Thanks, B :)
I'm neither as clever or as analytical as the other 3 posters, or your good self.
It just strikes me as odd that very few external calls were seemingly made from OC reception in the midst of a crisis.

[ShiningInLuz]

The writing down of the timeline undertaken in the immediate aftermath of the event was exactly the correct thing to do as attested by the unnamed GNR officer.
I would have used a different methodology ... but at least they recognised the importance of memory fading or becoming embellished with time and recording it before too much of that could occur.

It was a more valuable use of their time than the searching they did bearing in mind there were many others doing that who were not in possession of their valuable knowledge of the sequence of events.

I follow your blog ... https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2015/12/04/madeleine-luz-2007-yellow-pages/ and am struck by the amount of work you have put into the phone records.
My brain doesn't work that way unfortunately (or fortunately because it certainly makes my life a bit easier than the tasks you set yourself) you have a similar analytical mindset as Sadie, Misty and Pegasus I think ... given a problem you are all like a terrier with a bone.


Of interest as far as searching goes these two threads go into some detail about the derelict building which was the topic of interest not too long ago for which you provided photographs which cleared a few things up ... Heri has also provided some excellent photographs in topic 1390.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1183.msg33129#msg33129
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1390.msg38347#msg38347

Thanks for the links.  I have been wondering about which areas of Luz have been photographed to death and which remain to be revealed.

[Brietta]

Thanks for the links.  I have been wondering about which areas of Luz have been photographed to death and which remain to be revealed.

Heri has taken albums of photographs which he has shared.  I can tell you are itching to get an excuse to get more photos with the new camera.  Maybe get in touch with Heri for suggestions.  I'm sure there will be something he will be able to come up with ~ without you getting arrested for trespass.

[G-Unit]

It is impossible to make an accurate analysis of phone records which have been re-typed into Excel & are also incomplete. Doesn't the lack of phone traffic immediately after 22.51 on Greentrust records seem strange?
Helder probably did call the GNR using another line. It is probably in the full record of emergency calls that night - which is why the PJ never pursued that anomaly in his statement & the timeline.

There is no record of another line. The phone records are for the OC main line as provided by the phone company, nothing to do with Excel. OC are still using the same number today. Vitor Santos said he was phoned by reception, he wasn't. He may have been phoned by the receptionist using a mobile, but I can't think why when he had a phone available to use which was free.

[pegasus]

There is no record of another line. The phone records are for the OC main line as provided by the phone company, nothing to do with Excel. OC are still using the same number today. Vitor Santos said he was phoned by reception, he wasn't. He may have been phoned by the receptionist using a mobile, but I can't think why when he had a phone available to use which was free.

About 8 minutes after 2nd call to GNR, reception phoned two mobiles

[misty]

About 8 minutes after 2nd call to GNR, reception phoned two mobiles

There is precious little phone traffic on the main line after that, which seems odd, given the situation.
How do you suppose Thomas Cook handled their phone business?
Was it not odd that there was no reference made to any TC reps being involved in the searches?

[pegasus]

just after the calls to police, one of the 2 mobile numbers called by reception is likely to be VS.

[misty]

just after the calls to police, one of the 2 mobile numbers called by reception is likely to be VS.

Quite possibly. So while Helder was stressing, John Hill had called the police again, on the same extension used for the first call but not the same extension as Helder. Did Helder perhaps not understand English very well, as JH had taken control of the situation?

[G-Unit]

Vitor Santos wasn't phoned on the OC main line at all. My research indicates that the calls were to other staff members. Luis Barros, Nelson Rodrigues and Jeronimo Salcedas were phoned after the GNR calls.

[ShiningInLuz]

Vitor Santos wasn't phoned on the OC main line at all. My research indicates that the calls were to other staff members. Luis Barros, Nelson Rodrigues and Jeronimo Salcedas were phoned after the GNR calls.

Thanks to a bit of interchange, this has been clarified quite a bit.

The Ocean Club had a landline system capable of 100 extensions.  The only time the records show the full-length number is if the base number is used.  All other extensions record as two digits shorter - you do not get the extension number.  Therefore, you do not know from the record who is making the phone call.

G-Unit is right about the calls after the GNR was phoned.  Using the GNR records re staff interviews, the calls can be matched.  None of the numbers matches Vitor's number.  The numbers match staff as above.  These would need to be cross-referenced by who called whom, but they seem to fall into the general category of internal alerts from one member of the OC to another.

The PJ Files also show a mobile number for the OC.  This may have been used to phone Vitor, and would not show up in the landline OC records.  Since the mobile traffic in the PJ Files is for the Tapas 9, armchair sleuths are not able to check if Helder used this method or not.  Why he would is a puzzle.

Bottom line is there are 2 landline calls to the GNR, and both Helder and Vitor say a call to Vitor was after the GNR calls.  Vitor then says he took 10 to 15 minutes to get from Lagos to OC 24hr reception, and that when he arrived, the GNR were talking to Gerry in reception.

And that pushes the time the GNR arrived at 5A beyond 11pm. As to when the GNR search actually began, over to you.

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[pegasus]

Vitor Santos wasn't phoned on the OC main line at all. My research indicates that the calls were to other staff members. Luis Barros, Nelson Rodrigues and Jeronimo Salcedas were phoned after the GNR calls.

Yes you are right.
2259 was to LB (this call was from NR at the Millenium landline extension).
2305 and 2328 were to JS.
2357 was to NR.

So IMO the receptionist used a mobile to phone VS. At about 2254 IMO.

[G-Unit]

Yes you are right.
2259 was to LB (this call was from NR at the Millenium landline extension).
2305 and 2328 were to JS.
2357 was to NR.

So IMO the receptionist used a mobile to phone VS. At about 2254 IMO.

We can assume that Helder used a mobile, but we don't know that he did.

[pegasus]

We can assume that Helder used a mobile, but we don't know that he did.

Yes HL could have used a either a mobile, or a different landline.
But realising the call to VS was not from OC main landline system, means the call was probably at 2254 IMO (immediate after the 2252 call to GNR).
If VS was phoned at 2254, how long would it take him to get from his home to 24h reception?