DNA markers in paternity tests versus evidence in criminal cases.

[Carana]

Anne, on another pending topic... have you found a source for 13 markers in the US and France as being sufficient for legal purposes on paternity?

[AnneGuedes]

D’autre part, plusieurs facteurs contribuent à la fiabilité d'un test de paternité ADN. La quantité des informations disponibles joue généralement un rôle important. Plus l’on fait entrer d’informations dans le calcul mathématique, plus la probabilité de paternité augmente. Le nombre de marqueurs ADN testés joue aussi un rôle important. Jusqu’en 2002, on examinait 11 marqueurs ADN , ce qui représentait la norme à l’époque Aujourd’hui, nous examinons 16 marqueurs. Dans la plupart des cas, on atteint ainsi une probabilité de paternité supérieure à 99,99% (cas déficient : père-enfant sans la mère). Avec la mère, cette probabilité est souvent supérieure à 99,9999%. )
I think it's still 13 loci in the US, it seems that now in France, when the test is done for legal reasons, 16 are required because it allows a better identification of rare alleles and frequent ones that persons may have in common. If the part of rare alleles is superior to the part of frequent alleles, the probability that the persons are affiliated increases. If the frequent alleles are dominant, the mathematical risk that another person could have transmitted the same allele increases.
http://www.podcastscience.fm/dossiers/2011/05/19/dossier-les-tests-adn/

[Carana]

D’autre part, plusieurs facteurs contribuent à la fiabilité d'un test de paternité ADN. La quantité des informations disponibles joue généralement un rôle important. Plus l’on fait entrer d’informations dans le calcul mathématique, plus la probabilité de paternité augmente. Le nombre de marqueurs ADN testés joue aussi un rôle important. Jusqu’en 2002, on examinait 11 marqueurs ADN , ce qui représentait la norme à l’époque Aujourd’hui, nous examinons 16 marqueurs. Dans la plupart des cas, on atteint ainsi une probabilité de paternité supérieure à 99,99% (cas déficient : père-enfant sans la mère). Avec la mère, cette probabilité est souvent supérieure à 99,9999%. )
I think it's still 13 loci in the US, it seems that now in France, when the test is done for legal reasons, 16 are required because it allows a better identification of rare alleles and frequent ones that persons may have in common. If the part of rare alleles is superior to the part of frequent alleles, the probability that the persons are affiliated increases. If the frequent alleles are dominant, the mathematical risk that another person could have transmitted the same allele increases.
http://www.podcastscience.fm/dossiers/2011/05/19/dossier-les-tests-adn/

What is the connection between a paternity test (which requires uncontaminated samples) and a find in a crime scene soup?

[Jean-Pierre]

D’autre part, plusieurs facteurs contribuent à la fiabilité d'un test de paternité ADN. La quantité des informations disponibles joue généralement un rôle important. Plus l’on fait entrer d’informations dans le calcul mathématique, plus la probabilité de paternité augmente. Le nombre de marqueurs ADN testés joue aussi un rôle important. Jusqu’en 2002, on examinait 11 marqueurs ADN , ce qui représentait la norme à l’époque Aujourd’hui, nous examinons 16 marqueurs. Dans la plupart des cas, on atteint ainsi une probabilité de paternité supérieure à 99,99% (cas déficient : père-enfant sans la mère). Avec la mère, cette probabilité est souvent supérieure à 99,9999%. )
I think it's still 13 loci in the US, it seems that now in France, when the test is done for legal reasons, 16 are required because it allows a better identification of rare alleles and frequent ones that persons may have in common. If the part of rare alleles is superior to the part of frequent alleles, the probability that the persons are affiliated increases. If the frequent alleles are dominant, the mathematical risk that another person could have transmitted the same allele increases.
http://www.podcastscience.fm/dossiers/2011/05/19/dossier-les-tests-adn/

What is the relevance of this?  Tests for paternity are completely different in terms of subjects and objectives to those used in establishing whether a sample of DNA comes from a particular individual.  Particularly where there are other close relatives (parents and siblings) from whom the sample could have come.  Add in LCN and it really does become complicated.   

[Carana]

D’autre part, plusieurs facteurs contribuent à la fiabilité d'un test de paternité ADN. La quantité des informations disponibles joue généralement un rôle important. Plus l’on fait entrer d’informations dans le calcul mathématique, plus la probabilité de paternité augmente. Le nombre de marqueurs ADN testés joue aussi un rôle important. Jusqu’en 2002, on examinait 11 marqueurs ADN , ce qui représentait la norme à l’époque Aujourd’hui, nous examinons 16 marqueurs. Dans la plupart des cas, on atteint ainsi une probabilité de paternité supérieure à 99,99% (cas déficient : père-enfant sans la mère). Avec la mère, cette probabilité est souvent supérieure à 99,9999%. )
I think it's still 13 loci in the US, it seems that now in France, when the test is done for legal reasons, 16 are required because it allows a better identification of rare alleles and frequent ones that persons may have in common. If the part of rare alleles is superior to the part of frequent alleles, the probability that the persons are affiliated increases. If the frequent alleles are dominant, the mathematical risk that another person could have transmitted the same allele increases.
http://www.podcastscience.fm/dossiers/2011/05/19/dossier-les-tests-adn/

So where did you get your assertion from that the US and France only examined 13 loci in paternity issues?

[Admin]

This is a new thread.

[AnneGuedes]

What is the connection between a paternity test (which requires uncontaminated samples) and a find in a crime scene soup?

Don't you remember you asked a source for the number of loci required for paternity tests in France ?
Anne, on another pending topic... have you found a source for 13 markers in the US and France as being sufficient for legal purposes on paternity?

[AnneGuedes]

So where did you get your assertion from that the US and France only examined 13 loci in paternity issues?

I'm sorry I couldn't find the page where I saw 13, I didn't invent it. On the link I sent they say it was 11 up to 2002 and is 16 now, when the tests must have legal value.
I've no personal experience of that, I never doubted who fathered my kids.
This US site also says 16.
http://www.paternity.us/

[Carana]

So why do people still refer to certain people on PT TV matinée shows that 15/19 alleles (or - even worse - markers as one guest seemed to have assumed) were sufficient to prove paternity? Out of a total of 15 compatible with 37 in a mixed soup, of all things.

It really doesn't require that much effort to verify how silly that assertion was.

[AnneGuedes]

If you're sure you understood correctly, it would be a more positive reaction to e-mail your remarks to the direction of the program than to state on this forum that certain people on PT TV are silly. Unless your agenda in doing so is different of course.

[Carana]

If you're sure you understood correctly, it would be a more positive reaction to e-mail your remarks to the direction of the program than to state on this forum that certain people on PT TV are silly. Unless your agenda in doing so is different of course.

If I thought that pointing out errors to a PT TV matinée show could have pointed out errors in any way, I might have done so. Long ago.

[Carana]

Anne, do you seriously believe that 15 alleles in a mixed soup of 37 could prove paternity?

[ferryman]

Don't diss paternity tests in criminal investigations.

They can rule in (or out!) half the population ...

[AnneGuedes]

Anne, do you seriously believe that 15 alleles in a mixed soup of 37 could prove paternity?

Did I say that ?

[Carana]

Did I say that ?

What is your understanding?