Author Topic: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?  (Read 7667 times)

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Offline Robittybob1

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #135 on: October 05, 2018, 07:32:27 PM »
Who turned the key?????  Please be sensible.
There is only a choice of two people in your scenario isn't there and only one says it was "locked", so how come you didn't say Vitor Martins locked the door? 

Now if he locked the door what does he then do with the key?  Did he leave the key with the GNR who remain at the site?  That seems sensible for Martins would have no idea who the next PJ officer was going to be who wants to enter the premise.
Or is it him who returns to open up?
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #136 on: October 05, 2018, 07:37:55 PM »
Vitor Martins makes the point he is working from instructions from his boss in Portimao.  Would this have been Amaral?
"The OC services manager introduced him to the missing girls parents, who looked quite tired and anguished, particularly the mother who appeared more upset and was therefore less receptive to conversation, which led the witness to converse only with the girls father.

After the site had been isolated, he proceeded to make an inspection, together with the inspection and photographic report carried out by Deputy Specialist Joao Barreiras.

He states that he always maintained telephone contact with his superiors, in order to inform them of the inquiries carried out, until, at a time he cannot recall, after having completed the inquiries requested, he received orders from his superiors to return to the Portimao DIC, where the report was subsequently compiled.

He then states that upon leaving the apartment was locked, leaving the space preserved for the GNR elements that were stationed next to the apartment."

This person giving orders to Vitor Martins needs to confirm this.


Personally IMO what he is saying sounds like crap.  Have you ever tried ringing your boss at 4:30 in the morning!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 07:41:51 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline G-Unit

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #137 on: October 05, 2018, 07:39:21 PM »
There is only a choice of two people in your scenario isn't there and only one says it was "locked", so how come you didn't say Vitor Martins locked the door? 

Now if he locked the door what does he then do with the key?  Did he leave the key with the GNR who remain at the site?  That seems sensible for Martins would have no idea who the next PJ officer was going to be who wants to enter the premise.
Or is it him who returns to open up?

None of that is important. What matters is that civilians aren't left in partly examined crime scenes.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #138 on: October 05, 2018, 07:50:41 PM »
There is only a choice of two people in your scenario isn't there and only one says it was "locked", so how come you didn't say Vitor Martins locked the door? 

Now if he locked the door what does he then do with the key?  Did he leave the key with the GNR who remain at the site?  That seems sensible for Martins would have no idea who the next PJ officer was going to be who wants to enter the premise.
Or is it him who returns to open up?
If Vitor left the key with the GNR guarding the site then maybe he ordered the GNR to lock the apartment.
Who confirmed the building was empty and locked?  Like who confirmed the patio door was also locked?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 09:03:41 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #139 on: October 05, 2018, 08:25:20 PM »
None of that is important. What matters is that civilians aren't left in partly examined crime scenes.
Had anyone thought of it as a crime scene at that stage?  I thought the general impression on the night was that Madeleine had wandered out and she will be found soon.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #140 on: October 05, 2018, 08:32:39 PM »
None of that is important. What matters is that civilians aren't left in partly examined crime scenes.
We are looking for the truth.  Could the PJ have been embarrassed by the fact that they had left civilians "in partly examined crime scene"?
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Offline G-Unit

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #141 on: October 05, 2018, 09:07:01 PM »
Had anyone thought of it as a crime scene at that stage?  I thought the general impression on the night was that Madeleine had wandered out and she will be found soon.

Read the PJ statements Rob.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #142 on: October 05, 2018, 10:05:46 PM »
Read the PJ statements Rob.
We are talking about their impression at 3:00 AM on the 4th,  What were they saying then at that time.  No good reading statements made a week later.

The statement by Vitor Martins is interesting in that respect for he says he wrote it up as soon as he got back to Portimao.
So what did he say on the night?

"From: Vitor Martins, Inspector


Subject: Participation in the Disappearance of the Child.

I inform you that on this date, at about 01.00 Officer Patricio from the GNR informed this police station about the disappearance of a female child aged four and of British nationality.

According to the GNR officer, the disappearance would have happened at about 22.40 yesterday, from a room of a ground floor apartment of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, where a family was staying composed of a couple and three small children.

The layout of the apartment is composed of two bedrooms, a kitchen, living room and bathroom.

The front door as well as the back door (living room patio doors) of the apartment allow easy access to the public roads.

During dinner the couple would on several occasions go to the children's bedroom, at a given moment in one of these visits the mother realised that one of the girls was missing and gave the alarm to try to locate her.

Giuven these facts and on superior orders, police services were activated consisting of the undersigned and Officer Barreiras, Deputy Specialist who immediately left for the scene and began to carry out investigations.

At the scene, the girl's parents were identified as being:

Gerald Patrick McCann, of English nationality, born on 05-06-1968, holder of passport nș and owner of mobile phone number*****.

Kate Marie Healy, of English nationality, born on 05-03-1968, originally from Liverpool, holder of passport nș **+ and owner of mobile phone number nÂș*****.

They both own the following residence: **** Leicestershire, UK LE 7 /Rw.

The missing child was identified as being Madeleine Beth McCann, born on 12-05-2003 holder of passport nș ******

It is stated that as well the girl in question, the couple have two twin children aged two who were also in the bedroom where Madeleine was sleeping.

In conversation with Gerald McCann it was possible to establish the following:

They had been staying at the OC since 28th April 2007 and they were due to stay there for a week.

From 29-04-2007 he would dine with his wife at a restaurant in the OC whilst their children were a few metres away from the restaurant, in the bedroom.

They would dine at the restaurant with three other couples who were friends of theirs. Yesterday (the day of the events) they got up at 07.30 and had breakfast in the apartment. At about 09.00 they left the apartment and left the children at the creche, this creche was located inside the OC, with employees who would take care of the children until about 12.30.

After lunch, at about 14.30 the children would be dropped off back at the creche and would stay there until about 17.00.

At about 17.30 the parents would bathe the children and give them something to eat and at about 19.30 the three children were put to sleep in one of the bedrooms in the apartment.

At about 20.30 the couple left to have dinner in the restaurant.

At about 21.05 - 21.15 Gerald went to the bedroom to see the children, he saw the bedroom door was half way open which he found strange as he thought he had left it pushed to, however he entered and saw the children and saw that the window as well as the shutter were closed.

At about 21.20, their friend Jane passed by the apartment (along the corridor of the main entrance) she saw an individual carrying a child who passed descending the road, however she did not recognise this individual, nor the child, only having noticed that the individual appeared to be aged between 30 or 40, had dark hair and light coloured trousers.


At about 21.30 their friend Mat entered the apartment by the back door (patio door) he did not enter the bedroom and only saw the twins sleeping, he did not notice anything strange.

At the same place, at about 22.00 Kate discovered the facts and the consequent disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, at this moment the window being wide open as well as the curtains and the shutter.

In conversation with the Director of Maintenance Services of the OC, Silvia Batista it was possible to establish that those employees responsible for the creche were Lindsay Johnson and Stacey Portz and that the following employees (employed until October) were Amy Tierney, Pauline Mccann, Rhiannon Fretter, Charlotte Pennington, Leanne Wagstaff, Susan Owen, Sarah Williamson, Jacke Williams, Shinead Vine, Emma Wilding, Cat Baker and Kirsty Maryan.

The Director of Maintenance Services provided copies of the lists of guests staying in the apartments and of the departures on 03-05-2007 and provided her telephone number for any further information.

It is important to state that when the police arrived at the scene, there were already several people inside the apartment who could have contaminated this space.
It is also important to state that the GNR officers carried out several searches around the apartment in an attempt to locate the missing girl, however these efforts have been fruitless.


An examination of the scene and a photographic report were made.
The parents handed over one photograph of Madeleine.

I bring this to your attention.

Signed

Inspector Vitor Martins" 


I don't see anything there that refers to the apartment as a crime scene.

Were there actual samples and forensics taken that night?  We are aware of the photos taken by Joao Barreiras, but was there anything else.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 10:21:42 PM by Robittybob1 »
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Offline Sunny

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #143 on: October 05, 2018, 10:45:55 PM »
We are talking about their impression at 3:00 AM on the 4th,  What were they saying then at that time.  No good reading statements made a week later.

The statement by Vitor Martins is interesting in that respect for he says he wrote it up as soon as he got back to Portimao.
So what did he say on the night?

"From: Vitor Martins, Inspector


Subject: Participation in the Disappearance of the Child.

I inform you that on this date, at about 01.00 Officer Patricio from the GNR informed this police station about the disappearance of a female child aged four and of British nationality.

According to the GNR officer, the disappearance would have happened at about 22.40 yesterday, from a room of a ground floor apartment of the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, where a family was staying composed of a couple and three small children.

The layout of the apartment is composed of two bedrooms, a kitchen, living room and bathroom.

The front door as well as the back door (living room patio doors) of the apartment allow easy access to the public roads.

During dinner the couple would on several occasions go to the children's bedroom, at a given moment in one of these visits the mother realised that one of the girls was missing and gave the alarm to try to locate her.

Giuven these facts and on superior orders, police services were activated consisting of the undersigned and Officer Barreiras, Deputy Specialist who immediately left for the scene and began to carry out investigations.

At the scene, the girl's parents were identified as being:

Gerald Patrick McCann, of English nationality, born on 05-06-1968, holder of passport nș and owner of mobile phone number*****.

Kate Marie Healy, of English nationality, born on 05-03-1968, originally from Liverpool, holder of passport nș **+ and owner of mobile phone number nÂș*****.

They both own the following residence: **** Leicestershire, UK LE 7 /Rw.

The missing child was identified as being Madeleine Beth McCann, born on 12-05-2003 holder of passport nș ******

It is stated that as well the girl in question, the couple have two twin children aged two who were also in the bedroom where Madeleine was sleeping.

In conversation with Gerald McCann it was possible to establish the following:

They had been staying at the OC since 28th April 2007 and they were due to stay there for a week.

From 29-04-2007 he would dine with his wife at a restaurant in the OC whilst their children were a few metres away from the restaurant, in the bedroom.

They would dine at the restaurant with three other couples who were friends of theirs. Yesterday (the day of the events) they got up at 07.30 and had breakfast in the apartment. At about 09.00 they left the apartment and left the children at the creche, this creche was located inside the OC, with employees who would take care of the children until about 12.30.

After lunch, at about 14.30 the children would be dropped off back at the creche and would stay there until about 17.00.

At about 17.30 the parents would bathe the children and give them something to eat and at about 19.30 the three children were put to sleep in one of the bedrooms in the apartment.

At about 20.30 the couple left to have dinner in the restaurant.

At about 21.05 - 21.15 Gerald went to the bedroom to see the children, he saw the bedroom door was half way open which he found strange as he thought he had left it pushed to, however he entered and saw the children and saw that the window as well as the shutter were closed.

At about 21.20, their friend Jane passed by the apartment (along the corridor of the main entrance) she saw an individual carrying a child who passed descending the road, however she did not recognise this individual, nor the child, only having noticed that the individual appeared to be aged between 30 or 40, had dark hair and light coloured trousers.


At about 21.30 their friend Mat entered the apartment by the back door (patio door) he did not enter the bedroom and only saw the twins sleeping, he did not notice anything strange.

At the same place, at about 22.00 Kate discovered the facts and the consequent disappearance of her daughter Madeleine, at this moment the window being wide open as well as the curtains and the shutter.

In conversation with the Director of Maintenance Services of the OC, Silvia Batista it was possible to establish that those employees responsible for the creche were Lindsay Johnson and Stacey Portz and that the following employees (employed until October) were Amy Tierney, Pauline Mccann, Rhiannon Fretter, Charlotte Pennington, Leanne Wagstaff, Susan Owen, Sarah Williamson, Jacke Williams, Shinead Vine, Emma Wilding, Cat Baker and Kirsty Maryan.

The Director of Maintenance Services provided copies of the lists of guests staying in the apartments and of the departures on 03-05-2007 and provided her telephone number for any further information.

It is important to state that when the police arrived at the scene, there were already several people inside the apartment who could have contaminated this space.
It is also important to state that the GNR officers carried out several searches around the apartment in an attempt to locate the missing girl, however these efforts have been fruitless.


An examination of the scene and a photographic report were made.
The parents handed over one photograph of Madeleine.

I bring this to your attention.

Signed

Inspector Vitor Martins" 


I don't see anything there that refers to the apartment as a crime scene.

Were there actual samples and forensics taken that night?  We are aware of the photos taken by Joao Barreiras, but was there anything else.

If he didn't consider it a crime scene why did he say this

It is important to state that when the police arrived at the scene, there were already several people inside the apartment who could have contaminated this space.


He considered it a possible  "contaminated"crime scene, no need to say contaminated otherwise IMO.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #144 on: October 06, 2018, 12:12:41 AM »
If he didn't consider it a crime scene why did he say this

It is important to state that when the police arrived at the scene, there were already several people inside the apartment who could have contaminated this space.


He considered it a possible  "contaminated"crime scene, no need to say contaminated otherwise IMO.
Is that his reason he didn't bother with taking samples.  What samples did they take that night?
Wasn't it because the scene was already contaminated that there was no point in stopping the McCanns from staying there any longer.  But because they didn't stay Martins was able to lock up the premises.
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Offline G-Unit

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #145 on: October 06, 2018, 07:47:05 AM »
Is that his reason he didn't bother with taking samples.  What samples did they take that night?
Wasn't it because the scene was already contaminated that there was no point in stopping the McCanns from staying there any longer.  But because they didn't stay Martins was able to lock up the premises.

Common sense tells me that if the PJ intended to leave them in 5A they wouldn't have asked the Ocean Club to find them a new apartment.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #146 on: October 06, 2018, 11:34:54 AM »
Common sense tells me that if the PJ intended to leave them in 5A they wouldn't have asked the Ocean Club to find them a new apartment.
Where does it say that?  I read it as "In the apartment where the family was staying, there were different persons, including the friends of the girls parents, who were immediately invited to leave the apartment, in order to preserve the scene."

He  Vitor Martins never had a problem with the family staying there.  It was the other people he had a problem with.

It was John Hill who organised a new apartment (I assume that was different to the Payne's apartment).
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #147 on: October 06, 2018, 11:42:48 AM »
Common sense tells me that if the PJ intended to leave them in 5A they wouldn't have asked the Ocean Club to find them a new apartment.
Joao Barreiras says this "It was requested that the babies were moved, which was done accordingly, the witness having subsequently put his gloves on to begin the on-site inspection." 

That is removed from the children's room to start with.  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10225.msg493081#msg493081 clearly shows whatever happened in the main bedroom was never considered part of the crime scene as no hairs were recovered from there.
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Offline Sunny

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #148 on: October 06, 2018, 12:17:49 PM »
Is that his reason he didn't bother with taking samples.  What samples did they take that night?
Wasn't it because the scene was already contaminated that there was no point in stopping the McCanns from staying there any longer.  But because they didn't stay Martins was able to lock up the premises.

Because there was no need for him to take samples as they were leaving the door locked. Perhaps they were getting specialists in for that. 

No they didn't let the McCanns stay there Rob. I still cannot believe you are saying this. He says he asked them to leave the premises and arranged for OC to find another apartment for them. Why would he arrange for another apartment for them if they were being allowed to stay? He wouldn't
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: So where were the twins moved to the night Madeleine disappeared?
« Reply #149 on: October 06, 2018, 07:34:00 PM »
Because there was no need for him to take samples as they were leaving the door locked. Perhaps they were getting specialists in for that. 

No they didn't let the McCanns stay there Rob. I still cannot believe you are saying this. He says he asked them to leave the premises and arranged for OC to find another apartment for them. Why would he arrange for another apartment for them if they were being allowed to stay? He wouldn't
find the quote where it says he arranged another apartment for them?
  I think your question is valid though.  Why would John Hill arrange for another apartment for them if they were being allowed to stay?
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