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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 12:57:14 PM

Title: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 12:57:14 PM
I believe the above is a policing principle which basically means before casting the net far and wide look at suspects close to home!

I've heard retired MET detective Colin Sutton refer to the above and it appears in books about policing such as the following:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JcKEDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=clearing+the+ground+beneath+your+feet+police&source=bl&ots=ki6RIfTgiZ&sig=ACfU3U0dFKax6YAYEhdQu_P1puVI8RqBSw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj47qyMjKPlAhXJNcAKHc9xCKsQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=clearing%20the%20ground%20beneath%20your%20feet%20police&f=false

The above link homes in on:

1. Management of information
2. Prioritisation of leads
3. "Lack of grip" of the investigation

In this case I consider PF to be one of the most important witnesses in that she was completely independent of the McCanns/T7, lived at Waterside Gardens (WG) permanently, directly above apartment 5A, and had done so for 3/4 years and yet it appears she was not asked to provide a wit stat until 20th Aug 2007 at a time the case had already turned against the McCanns.

When PF did produce a wit stat it provided crucial information:

- Claims she heard MM crying and calling 'Daddy, daddy' from 10.30 pm - 11.45 pm on 1st May
- Claims in her opinion the above noise did not emanate from a child under the age of 2 (which would rule out AM/SM).
- Claims the above noise ceased when she heard the patio doors slide open (which can't be locked from outside)
- Claims she phoned a local friend, Edna Glyn, to discuss
- Claims she observed the McCanns walking around ie was familiar with the parents and ages of the 3 children
- When asked about the crying she claims she thought it was brought on by a destabilising factor and suggests a nightmare or a burglary on the basis she herself had been the victim of an attempted burglary a week or so prior to the McCanns arrival.

So in effect PF shared the above info with at least one other person.  Who else did she share with?  And who heard second, third hand etc and overheard?

This is extremely important imo as PF was unwittingly letting those who she told know the following:

- A child was home alone in 5A
- The patio door was unlocked
- The idea the crying may have been brought about by a burglary/attempted burglary

Scene of crime:

- Disappeared nearly 4 yoa child
- No signs of forced entry
- Raised shutter/open window

Imo MM was abducted by someone who gleaned all the intelligence from PF to carry out the low risk operation:

- MM was abducted as she was the child heard crying.
- Abductor slipped in via unlocked patio doors and exited back out patio doors or more likely front door if it can closed shut behind.
- Abductor staged shutter and window in an attempt to mislead PF and investigators into thinking it may have been connected to the recent attempted robbery at PF's apartment.

It's a great pity imo that PF was not interviewed further along with Edna Glyn. 
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 04:51:15 PM
IMO PJ/GA did not clear the ground beneath his feet. 

He was unable to work out:

- How a child seemingly disappeared off the face of the earth
- Why the S&R dogs did not scent beyond the immediate vicinity
- Why 5A showed no signs of forced entry
- Why the shutter had been raised and the window opened
- That 'Tannerman' wasn't a figment of someone's imagination but an in all probability an innocent holiday maker

As such he wove imo a poorly constructed narrative around the McCanns/T7.

Had he interviewed PF on 3rd/4th May he would imo have come to understand that the perp was someone who learned from PF that:

- MM was home alone
- The patio doors were unlocked
- PF sustained a recent attempted burglary on her apartment directly above 5A which may have been linked to the raised shutter/open window
- He might also have learned about anyone visiting PF who might have had access to a vehicle used in the abduction hence the S&R dogs did not scent beyond immediate vicinity

Had he interviewed Dr T and Mrs T on 3rd/4th May or shortly thereafter he would have come to understand that in all probability that 'Tannerman' was in all probability an innocent holiday maker.

It seems to me PJ/Amaral, the private detective agencies and MET have not cleared the ground beneath their feet?

Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: The General on October 17, 2019, 04:56:13 PM
IMO PJ/GA did not clear the ground beneath his feet. 

He was unable to work out:

- How a child seemingly disappeared off the face of the earth


...like everyone else on the planet.
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 05:25:56 PM
...like everyone else on the planet.

Have you any evidence that everyone else on the planet has taken an interest in the case?
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: The General on October 17, 2019, 05:35:57 PM
Have you any evidence that everyone else on the planet has taken an interest in the case?
No, but by default nobody has explained it. That's a fact. Even the one's who don't know about the case haven't.
It's a totally superfluous comment - GA wasn't able to explain how a small child could vanish, etc, etc......who knew?
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 05:42:14 PM
No, but by default nobody has explained it. That's a fact. Even the one's who don't know about the case haven't.
It's a totally superfluous comment - GA wasn't able to explain how a small child could vanish, etc, etc......who knew?

It's a fact at this moment in time, yes.

Those responsible know and imo those responsible for investigating should have eventually known had they done their job properly. 

Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2019, 05:49:52 PM
IMO PJ/GA did not clear the ground beneath his feet. 

He was unable to work out:

- How a child seemingly disappeared off the face of the earth
- Why the S&R dogs did not scent beyond the immediate vicinity
- Why 5A showed no signs of forced entry
- Why the shutter had been raised and the window opened
- That 'Tannerman' wasn't a figment of someone's imagination but an in all probability an innocent holiday maker

As such he wove imo a poorly constructed narrative around the McCanns/T7.

Had he interviewed PF on 3rd/4th May he would imo have come to understand that the perp was someone who learned from PF that:

- MM was home alone
- The patio doors were unlocked
- PF sustained a recent attempted burglary on her apartment directly above 5A which may have been linked to the raised shutter/open window
- He might also have learned about anyone visiting PF who might have had access to a vehicle used in the abduction hence the S&R dogs did not scent beyond immediate vicinity

Had he interviewed Dr T and Mrs T on 3rd/4th May or shortly thereafter he would have come to understand that in all probability that 'Tannerman' was in all probability an innocent holiday maker.

It seems to me PJ/Amaral, the private detective agencies and MET have not cleared the ground beneath their feet?

Neither Scotland Yard nor private detectives acting on behalf of Madeleine's parents who never ceased in their efforts to locate her had the advantage of the golden hours which were squandered as much by arrogance as incompetence ...
First part of the post is fact ...  the arrogance and incompetence is opinion deduced from fact.
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Lace on October 17, 2019, 06:28:38 PM
Neither Scotland Yard nor private detectives acting on behalf of Madeleine's parents who never ceased in their efforts to locate her had the advantage of the golden hours which were squandered as much by arrogance as incompetence ...
First part of the post is fact ...  the arrogance and incompetence is opinion deduced from fact.

I remember reading [don't know if there was any truth in it]  that the GNR were late to the call from the OC as they had been investigating another case which turned out to be a hoax.    If this is true,  then the Police were purposely delayed after the call went out about Madeleine.
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Mr Gray on October 17, 2019, 06:45:39 PM
No, but by default nobody has explained it. That's a fact. Even the one's who don't know about the case haven't.
It's a totally superfluous comment - GA wasn't able to explain how a small child could vanish, etc, etc......who knew?

GA did expalin it...he said he could prove how maddie died and the death was covered up
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 06:48:19 PM
Either way I simply can't understand why an officer from PJ didn't as a matter of course interview PF at the earliest opportunity, 4th May latest.  After all she was only a matter of feet away when MM disappeared. 

MM disappeared 3rd May.  PF's wit stat dated 20th August  &%%6
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: jassi on October 17, 2019, 06:51:32 PM
Either way I simply can't understand why an officer from PJ didn't as a matter of course interview PF at the earliest opportunity, 4th May latest.  After all she was only a matter of feet away when MM disappeared. 

MM disappeared 3rd May.  PF's wit stat dated 20th August  &%%6

It could hardly have been earlier than the 4th, could it ?
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 06:57:39 PM
It could hardly have been earlier than the 4th, could it ?

Well I guess in theory it could have been 3rd May but officers are human and I can appreciate the idea of abduction may have seemed unlikely on 3rd May but come dawn and post initial searches I would like to think an officer would have been on PF's doorstep and if applicable leave a calling card. 
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: G-Unit on October 17, 2019, 08:21:47 PM
Well I guess in theory it could have been 3rd May but officers are human and I can appreciate the idea of abduction may have seemed unlikely on 3rd May but come dawn and post initial searches I would like to think an officer would have been on PF's doorstep and if applicable leave a calling card.

On Saturday 5th there were house to house visits by the PJ and OC employees. I assume that either Mrs Fenn was out or she said she had nothing to say.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm

Apartment 606 was used by the PJ as a base where people could go and speak to them. I assume Mrs Fenn didn't feel the need.

There appeared to be a guard on 5A for a while after the disappearance. I expect he would have been able to direct Mrs Fenn to 606 had she approached him. I assume she didn't.

Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 08:27:00 PM
PF claims in her wit stat she had a visit from her niece on the morning of 3rd May. 

The niece, Carole Tranmer, claims in her wit stat she visited her aunt morning of 3rd May along with her husband, Christopher Tranmer.  According to the niece the trio left PF's apartments around midday for a fish restaurant in nearby Lagos.  They all returned to PF's around mid noon with CT and her husband leaving PF's about 6 pm/6.30 pm for their holiday accommodation in Quarteria which is about an hours drive away from PDL. 

Why didn't PF mention her niece's husband and the lunch?  Is it just a case of one providing more detail than the other?   
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: jassi on October 17, 2019, 08:30:47 PM
PF claims in her wit stat she had a visit from her niece on the morning of 3rd May. 

The niece, Carole Tranmer, claims in her wit stat she visited her aunt morning of 3rd May along with her husband, Christopher Tranmer.  According to the niece the trio left PF's apartments around midday for a fish restaurant in nearby Lagos.  They all returned to PF's around mid noon with CT and her husband leaving PF's about 6 pm/6.30 pm for their holiday accommodation in Quarteria which is about an hours drive away from PDL. 

Why didn't PF mention her niece's husband and the lunch? Is it just a case of one providing more detail than the other?

Perhaps she considered it of no relevance.
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 08:32:49 PM
On Saturday 5th there were house to house visits by the PJ and OC employees. I assume that either Mrs Fenn was out or she said she had nothing to say.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EXTERNAL.htm

Apartment 606 was used by the PJ as a base where people could go and speak to them. I assume Mrs Fenn didn't feel the need.

There appeared to be a guard on 5A for a while after the disappearance. I expect he would have been able to direct Mrs Fenn to 606 had she approached him. I assume she didn't.

Thanks.  I'll read thoroughly but off the top of my head I wonder if PF slipped through the net somewhat being the only full-time resident?  Ie her name would not have appeared on the various lists produced by OC/tour companies/passport control etc. 
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 08:34:18 PM
Perhaps she considered it of no relevance.

Yes maybe.  Some people go into great detail others not.  But why even mention a visit in the morning?
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 09:07:48 PM
PF's wit stat gives the impression her niece paid a flying visit morning of 3rd May but the niece's wit stat gives the impression it was a long drawn out affair involving her husband, morning coffee at PF's followed by lunch at nearby Lagos, then back to PF's for afternoon tea and something to eat before departing around 6 pm/6.30 pm.

Are the different accounts significant or just a case of one providing more detail than another? 
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2019, 09:07:59 PM
Thanks.  I'll read thoroughly but off the top of my head I wonder if PF slipped through the net somewhat being the only full-time resident?  Ie her name would not have appeared on the various lists produced by OC/tour companies/passport control etc.

The net must have had some very large holes in it to have allowed Mrs Fenn and Mr and Mrs Moyes to slip through ... all of whom were in residence on 3rd May in apartments directly above the McCanns but who were not located by the police.
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 09:09:50 PM
The net must have had some very large holes in it to have allowed Mrs Fenn and Mr and Mrs Moyes to slip through ... all of whom were in residence on 3rd May in apartments directly above the McCanns but who were not located by the police.

I don't think there's anything in PJ files from the Moyes?
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2019, 09:14:24 PM
PF's wit stat gives the impression her niece paid a flying visit morning of 3rd May but the niece's wit stat gives the impression it was a long drawn out affair involving her husband, morning coffee at PF's followed by lunch at nearby Lagos, then back to PF's for afternoon tea and something to eat before departing around 6 pm/6.30 pm.

Are the different accounts significant or just a case of one providing more detail than another?

We have no idea what questions if any Mrs Fenn was asked.  What we do know is that by the time her witness statement was taken police priorities concerning Kate and Gerry had taken a particular turn.
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Brietta on October 17, 2019, 09:15:00 PM
I don't think there's anything in PJ files from the Moyes?

Quite.
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 09:18:24 PM
I'm reading the niece's wit stat and it appears she and her husband arrived in Quarteria on 28th Apr for a weeks hol with the objective of looking for a property to purchase in Eastern Algarve.  The most direct route from Quarteria to PDL takes around 1 hour.  The niece claims the drive TO PDL on 3rd May took about one hour but the return journey took about two hours.  She does not offer up any explanation for the time difference.  Is this significant?

https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 09:22:53 PM
The niece claims she and her husband were looking to purchase property in Eastern Algarve hence they stayed in Quarteria but on Fri 4th May they passed through PDL to view properties but didn't visit any estate agents?  Is this significant?
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 09:27:09 PM
The niece claims she visited her aunt regularly but when asked how many times she had visited PDL it amounted to a total of 3.  PF moved to PDL in 2003.  Is this significant? 
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 09:30:29 PM
The niece claimed it was too much for PF to put up her and her husband.  As such when they visited they stayed somewhere local and yet when they visited in 2007 they were staying in Quarteria which is an hours drive away.  Is this significant?
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 09:36:08 PM
The niece was asked to describe the view from PF's balcony which she describes as follows:

We are turned to a beautiful view of the ocean and all the clay roofs of the village, where one can see the pool, the reception area, the pool zone, the tennis courts, and one could see the roof of the Tapas bar. There are trees and bushes between all of this, so when one looks out, there are only roof tops, the small homes and other villas. It is an incredible view.

And when asked if she visited the tapas bar with her aunt she replied as follows:

No, no, no it was not there when I visited the last time, and it is something very recent; I believe that it was built about a year ago and I was there before the Tapas Bar was constructed. I think it was a part of the reception or something similar. We were not there before. It is very new.

Is this significant?
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 17, 2019, 09:57:22 PM
The niece claims when she was on PF's balcony 3rd May she observed a suspicious looking man hanging around what appears to have been the gate to 5B.  She claims she learned of MM's disappearance via The Sunday Times (6th May) and remembering the suspicious man she contacted her cousin and second cousin, a colonel at Sandhurst, to discuss whether or not she should contact the police which she did.  It doesn't appear during these discussions with her relatives and police that she mentions PF had very recently been the victim of an attempted burglary which she might have done eg 'Well it's probably unrelated to MM's disappearance and may well have been a man carrying out or planning a burglary'.  Perhaps PF did not want to worry her niece and family and didn't mention the attempted burglary?

Is any of this significant?
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: G-Unit on October 17, 2019, 11:24:10 PM
As was usual the detective who interviewed the niece dug out her first statement, which doesn't appear to have been given to the PJ. It seems he didn't locate the efit she made at the time however. There was some confusion because the PJ had sent Tasmin S's efit with their rogatory request and asked if the man she saw resembled him. Even when he was told that wasn't her efit, hers wasn't enclosed with her rog statement when it was sent to the PJ.

In the Netflix documentary, Summers and Swan saw Mrs Tranmer's sighting as significant, but why? She saw a man who fits the description of Matt Oldfield leaving the gate to 5B and closing it quietly. Whoever he was he showed no interest in 5A.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8672380/praia-de-luz-holidaymaker-who-stayed-in-flat-above-the-mccanns-saw-prowler-open-gate-hours-before-maddie-was-snatched/
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 18, 2019, 08:45:53 AM
As was usual the detective who interviewed the niece dug out her first statement, which doesn't appear to have been given to the PJ. It seems he didn't locate the efit she made at the time however. There was some confusion because the PJ had sent Tasmin S's efit with their rogatory request and asked if the man she saw resembled him. Even when he was told that wasn't her efit, hers wasn't enclosed with her rog statement when it was sent to the PJ.

In the Netflix documentary, Summers and Swan saw Mrs Tranmer's sighting as significant, but why? She saw a man who fits the description of Matt Oldfield leaving the gate to 5B and closing it quietly. Whoever he was he showed no interest in 5A.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8672380/praia-de-luz-holidaymaker-who-stayed-in-flat-above-the-mccanns-saw-prowler-open-gate-hours-before-maddie-was-snatched/

Yes I appreciate the niece's wit stat may not have been passed to PJ but this didn't prevent PJ from 'clearing the ground beneath its feet' and seeking out PF.  Had PJ sought out PF they might then have discovered the visit from the niece and her revelations about the 'suspicious man'.  The niece certainly would not have appeared on any records as according to her rog she was staying in Quarteria and simply visiting her aunt.  In any event when PJ eventually asked PF for a wit stat on 20th Aug '07 she refers to her niece and the efit produced hence the niece was asked to attend for a rog.

The niece claimed she observed a 'suspicious man' acting furtive whilst sitting on PF's balcony.  From her description this appears to have been around the gate to 5B.  She claimed she alerted her husband and PF to this sighting but they were too engrossed in conversation to hear.  I find this interesting for a number of reasons:

- PF was victim of an attempted burglary days before the McCanns arrived.  Assuming PF shared this info with her niece I would have thought the niece would have made sure PF heard as it may have been connected to the attempted burglary!

- The niece claims that when she arrived back in the UK and learned of MM's disappearance she contacted her cousin and second cousin, who at the time was a colonel at Sandhurst, to seek their opinion about the 'suspicious man' and what action, if any, she should take.  She does not appear to mention that it may have been connected to PF's attempted burglary as opposed to MM's disappearance.

- Again as above does not mention in her police rog that PF had recently been the victim of an attempted burglary and the 'suspicious man' may have been connected to this as opposed MM's disappearance.

I have not watched the Netflix vid only the trailer which included input from S&S.  Yes I agree in all probability the niece's sighting of the 'suspicious man' may well have been MO closing the gate to 5B quietly at a time GO was put down for a midday nap.  But according to the niece's rog she left PF's (5G) along with her husband and PF before midday for a fish restaurant in nearby Lagos. 

The niece claimed in her rog she was not aware the McCanns were staying in 5A directly below PF's apartment.  Maybe PF did not discuss with her niece the crying incident. 
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: Holly Goodhead on October 18, 2019, 09:59:59 AM
I've just checked MO's wit stat and the niece's rog:

- MO claims after leaving 5B for the morning activities he returned 1.30 pm - 2.00 pm to put GO down for a nap.  He then left 2.15 pm - 2.30 pm to call on ROB for the sailing.  Post sailing they played tennis and headed back to their respective apartments around 7 pm.

- PF's niece claims she arrived at 5G around 11 pm/midday and they left for fish restaurant by around midday as it fills quickly.  They returned at around 3.30 pm and sat on PF's balcony until they deaparted 6.00 pm/6.30 pm.

So based on the above timelines the niece was not at 5G at a time MO was at 5B on 3rd May.

The niece claims she arrived in Portugal on Sat 28th Apr and visited her aunt on Sun 29th Apr and Thu 3rd May and on both occasions she took her aunt out to lunch.   On Tue 1st May she makes mention it was her birthday but she does not mention how she spent the day or visiting her aunt on this day.

PF only mentions her niece visiting on the morning of 3rd May.  She does not mention going out to lunch or an extended stay into early evening or the niece's husband accompanying her.

Is any of this significant? 
Title: Re: 'Clear The Ground Beneath Your Feet'...
Post by: G-Unit on October 18, 2019, 12:51:29 PM
Carol Tranmer wasn't really sure about the days or times in my opinon. Her description sounds like Matthew or Russell to me.

According to Rachael she and Jane played tennis until 3pm on 3rd. Their husbands were together on the balcony of either 5B or 5D. Which suggests to me that they were the men seen by Jayne Jensen, although she thought it was the balcony of 5C.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-11-MAY07.htm

CT'Well, I am certain that we were on the terrace between 3:00/3:30 until 5:30 on Thursday afternoon...

CT'Humm... he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. Very short, blonde, the head was very sculptured. The shape of the head was very sculptured, more oval shaped...

CT'And, humm... then I believe I saw him wearing a blue-grey T-shirt, it was not dark blue, more of a pallid colour and it was, humm... a type of blue with short sleeves, humm... but I did not see anything below, I did not see the trousers or shoes or anything else, only the top part and he would have, I would say'humm, when looking from above, he was not short, I would say he was about a 1'78, about medium height. He was not thing nor was he muscular. So he was of average stature. I would say he was European but not Portuguese. He was not dark and, he was not short, but I would say that he looked Scandinavian if you will, because he was very light and could have been British or Scandinavian...

CT'No, it went up to the neck and had sleeves, short sleeves, but not straps, of this type, just short sleeves.
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

Matt's T-shirt looks white on the Paraiso film, but otherwise it matches CT's description.