Author Topic: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?  (Read 25855 times)

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Offline Angelo222

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #105 on: October 18, 2017, 07:47:41 AM »
Portugal has its problems and its killers just as ever other country in the world has.  It also has its fair share of domestic disputes and family related abductions.

Cipriano being a classic example.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #106 on: October 18, 2017, 08:08:20 AM »
Cipriano being a classic example.

some feel cipriano may well be a miscarriage of justice...as has been discussed extensively before. One of the three judges at her trial thought her to be innocent

Offline Angelo222

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #107 on: October 18, 2017, 11:52:10 AM »
some feel cipriano may well be a miscarriage of justice...as has been discussed extensively before. One of the three judges at her trial thought her to be innocent

That's not entirely true, the third judge felt there was reasonable doubt as to Leonor's actual involvement, innocent is not a word I would use where the Ciprianos are concerned.  They are both guilty to a greater or lesser degree imho.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline misty

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #108 on: October 18, 2017, 01:51:17 PM »
That's not entirely true, the third judge felt there was reasonable doubt as to Leonor's actual involvement, innocent is not a word I would use where the Ciprianos are concerned.  They are both guilty to a greater or lesser degree imho.

Joao had reportedly only arrived at Leonor's house on 12th September, the same day she went missing. I find it really hard to believe that Joana's death occurred as described within such a short period of time.

However, perhaps we should pause to give thought to all the lives lost & homes destroyed by the fires which have raged in Portugal again this summer. Some of the scenes shown on ITV news last night were distressing.

While the corrupt politicians siphon illicit gains into their Swiss bank accounts, there are insufficient funds to provide the necessary emergency services the victims need.
Let us hope that the mutterings of fires being deliberately started for corrupt commercial gain are not true.

Offline sadie

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #109 on: October 18, 2017, 11:59:08 PM »
That's not entirely true, the third judge felt there was reasonable doubt as to Leonor's actual involvement, innocent is not a word I would use where the Ciprianos are concerned.  They are both guilty to a greater or lesser degree imho.
In your opinion, maybe BUT not in the opinion of many, who thanks to torture and other unproven things saw a potentially great Miscarriage of Justice.

Please could you show us where the third judge only thought that there was reasonable doubt, because I thought that he made it plain that he was not happy with the verdict.  A cite would be gratefully received

TY

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #110 on: October 19, 2017, 12:07:29 AM »
In your opinion, maybe BUT not in the opinion of many, who thanks to torture and other unproven things saw a potentially great Miscarriage of Justice.

Please could you show us where the third judge only thought that there was reasonable doubt, because I thought that he made it plain that he was not happy with the verdict.  A cite would be gratefully received

TY

The dissenting Judge was unhappy with the verdict BUT he never stated that he thought Leonora Cipriano innocent, that's the big difference. At the very least, Leonora Cipriano was guilty of complicity in a crime and attempting to pervert the course of justice.  By is own admission, her brother John admitted to murder and disposing of a body in an attempt to avoid justice.  Both are guilty of staging an abduction.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 12:15:53 AM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline sadie

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #111 on: October 19, 2017, 12:14:05 AM »
The dissenting Judge was unhappy with the verdict BUT he never stated that he thought Leonora Cipriano innocent, that's the big difference. At the very least, Leonora Cipriano was guilty of complicity in a crime and attempting to pervert the course of justice.
Do you John/Angelo have a cite cos i really thought that I had seen that the one Judge was very adverse to the verdict.

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #112 on: October 19, 2017, 12:17:26 AM »
Do you John/Angelo have a cite cos i really thought that I had seen that the one Judge was very adverse to the verdict.

He didn't like the verdict certainly but at no time did any Judge state that she was innocent.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #113 on: October 19, 2017, 07:40:14 AM »
some feel cipriano may well be a miscarriage of justice...as has been discussed extensively before. One of the three judges at her trial thought her to be innocent

Please provide a cite.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #114 on: October 19, 2017, 08:49:12 AM »
The dissenting Judge was unhappy with the verdict BUT he never stated that he thought Leonora Cipriano innocent, that's the big difference. At the very least, Leonora Cipriano was guilty of complicity in a crime and attempting to pervert the course of justice.  By is own admission, her brother John admitted to murder and disposing of a body in an attempt to avoid justice.  Both are guilty of staging an abduction.

that is an admission that there may have been a miscarriage of justice...imo

Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #115 on: October 19, 2017, 11:25:09 AM »
that is an admission that there may have been a miscarriage of justice...imo

You could of course argue that Leonora Cipriano was guilty of murder by virtue of it being a joint enterprise crime.  My own view is that she tried to cover up for her brother by taking the blame initially and that is why she 'confessed' before the examining magistrate.  She knew that if João went down for murder after having served a sentence for attempted murder, that he might never see freedom again for many decades.  Isn't it ironic however that Leonora ended up with the greater sentence and João has seen freedom already?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 06:00:16 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #116 on: October 19, 2017, 07:42:03 PM »
You could of course argue that Leonora Cipriano was guilty of murder by virtue of it being a joint enterprise crime.  My own view is that she tried to cover up for her brother by taking the blame initially and that is why she 'confessed' before the examining magistrate.  She knew that if João went down for murder after having served a sentence for attempted murder, that he might never see freedom again for many decades.  Isn't it ironic however that Leonora ended up with the greater sentence and João has seen freedom already?

One could also argue that the circumstances surrounding her first interrogation aren't very clear, either. If the entire interrogation sessions (both formal and, erm, informal)  had been recorded and we were able to watch them, perhaps I'd be less suspicious. The same goes for João (all his interrogations and anything leading up to and including that bizarre reconstruction).

Anyone in authority can say anything if there's no accountability.


Offline John

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #117 on: October 25, 2017, 06:02:48 PM »
One could also argue that the circumstances surrounding her first interrogation aren't very clear, either. If the entire interrogation sessions (both formal and, erm, informal)  had been recorded and we were able to watch them, perhaps I'd be less suspicious. The same goes for João (all his interrogations and anything leading up to and including that bizarre reconstruction).

Anyone in authority can say anything if there's no accountability.

They were most likely recorded but as I keep saying, the police have at their disposal a hell of a lot more info than is ever released to the public.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 05:38:13 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #118 on: October 26, 2017, 05:04:28 PM »
They were most likely recorded but as I keep saying, the police have at their disposal a hell of a lot more info than is ever released to the public.

If so, none of it was released at trial though, was it? Aside from that somewhat bizarre "reconstruction" that the defense apparently never thought would be presented. Not that I'm entirely sure how much time they actually spent on the case.

Offline Carana

Re: Have we learned anything new from the Cipriano case?
« Reply #119 on: October 26, 2017, 05:09:04 PM »
They were most likely recorded but as I keep saying, the police have at their disposal a hell of a lot more info than is ever released to the public.

Have you ever found any evidence of that, John?