Author Topic: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?  (Read 91482 times)

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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #270 on: August 22, 2016, 07:51:54 PM »
People often say 'In my opinion', but what is an opinion? Often people present beliefs and prejudices as opinions. In the context of rational logical debate opinions are based on verifiable facts. This allows others to see the facts upon which the opinion rests and to either offer another interpretation or present other facts supporting their opposing opinion.

Beliefs and prejudices aren't based on verifiable facts, so they can't be verified or disproved. Hence they are irrational and illogical. In a debate they obviously carry less weight than a factually-based opinion.

In this context your opinion is actually a belief or prejudice because you don't seem able to provide any supporting facts.

My belief [as you describe it] is actually an opinion because I provided another example of Corbyn taking the rough with the smooth on public transport.
http://writing.colostate.edu/guides/teaching/co300man/pop12d.cfm

The link is interesting.
Especially this bit:
"Another kind of assertion that has no place in serious argumentation is prejudice, a half-baked opinion based on insufficient or unexamined evidence. (Ex.: "Women are bad drivers.") Unlike a belief, a prejudice is testable: it can be contested and disproved on the basis of facts. We often form prejudices or accept them from others--family, friends, the media, etc.--without questioning their meaning or testing their truth. At best, prejudices are careless oversimplifications. At worst, they reflect a narrow-minded view of the world. Most of all, they are not likely to win the confidence or agreement of your readers".
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline G-Unit

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #271 on: August 22, 2016, 08:19:37 PM »
The link is interesting.
Especially this bit:
"Another kind of assertion that has no place in serious argumentation is prejudice, a half-baked opinion based on insufficient or unexamined evidence. (Ex.: "Women are bad drivers.") Unlike a belief, a prejudice is testable: it can be contested and disproved on the basis of facts. We often form prejudices or accept them from others--family, friends, the media, etc.--without questioning their meaning or testing their truth. At best, prejudices are careless oversimplifications. At worst, they reflect a narrow-minded view of the world. Most of all, they are not likely to win the confidence or agreement of your readers".

I found the link very helpful and informative.
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Offline mercury

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #272 on: August 22, 2016, 10:09:18 PM »
After many years of tory sleaze, a useless and lying PM! corruption ,downright proven lies and odious ministers and policies causing poverty and suicide I find it hlarious anyone is latching onto corbyn to make an example of, downright hilarious at the very best

but keep calm and carry on making us laugh

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #273 on: August 23, 2016, 02:59:08 AM »
People often say 'In my opinion', but what is an opinion? Often people present beliefs and prejudices as opinions. In the context of rational logical debate opinions are based on verifiable facts. This allows others to see the facts upon which the opinion rests and to either offer another interpretation or present other facts supporting their opposing opinion.

Beliefs and prejudices aren't based on verifiable facts, so they can't be verified or disproved. Hence they are irrational and illogical. In a debate they obviously carry less weight than a factually-based opinion.

In this context your opinion is actually a belief or prejudice because you don't seem able to provide any supporting facts.

My belief [as you describe it] is actually an opinion because I provided another example of Corbyn taking the rough with the smooth on public transport.
http://writing.colostate.edu/guides/teaching/co300man/pop12d.cfm
So are you saying that all opinions are not equally valid???!  I thought that we had established that, on this forum at least, they were.... &%+((£

It seems My opinion is not as valid as G-Unit's because she found a picture of Corbyn standing up on London Transport (something most commuters have to do on a daily basis, because it is not possible to book a seat in advance).  Well done G-Unit, I bow to your superior opinion.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2016, 03:01:21 AM by Alfie »

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #274 on: August 23, 2016, 03:54:17 AM »
Some facts to be dismissed by those with superior opinions for not being the right sort of facts, but for only being statistics which are pretty much lies and prejudice anyway, especially as I posted them... @)(++(*


"On who would make the best Prime Minister Theresa May leads Jeremy Corbyn by 58% to 12% with YouGov, by 58% to 19% with ComRes. YouGov currently give the Conservatives an 18 point lead on running the economy, when ComRes last asked in March the Tories had a 16 point lead. Looking at MORI’s long term approval trackers Jeremy Corbyn’s net approval rating is minus 41 – already pushing at Ed Miliband’s lowest of minus 44 (and those depths took Miliband years). Corbyn’s favourability rating in ComRes last week was minus 28, worse than everyone else they asked about but Trump".

Don't worry though, Labour's not imploding, everything's just tickety-boo, Corbyn has a massive mandate and is loved by his people, if not his fellow labour MPs, once they have all been sacked and replaced by proper Socialists, then the UK will at last be on the road to The Socialist Utopia Jeremy has always dreamt of.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #275 on: August 23, 2016, 08:07:17 AM »
Well done Alfie; some facts. I agree the polls look bad for Labour but the question is why?

Is it because the membership voted for Corbyn to lead the Party or is it because of the reaction of the PLP and the media to his election?

For me, it's clearly the latter. Had the PLP accepted the result and worked with Corbyn, and had the media reported his stance neutrally the polls could have been quite different.

A lot of the PLP agree with the New Labour view that the only way to win general elections is to ditch traditional labour values. Hence their horror at Corbyn's success. Pragmatism not idealism is their preference.

There has always been bias against the left in the media. The adjectives used say it all; loony, hard, extreme, far. They don't win fairly they infiltrate, dominate, threaten, bay. The right, on the other hand, are reasonable, moderate, sensible etc.

I can only assume that the preference is for a US type political system where the difference between left and right is so small it's barely noticeable.



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stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #276 on: August 23, 2016, 09:01:08 AM »
Well done Alfie; some facts. I agree the polls look bad for Labour but the question is why?

Is it because the membership voted for Corbyn to lead the Party or is it because of the reaction of the PLP and the media to his election?

For me, it's clearly the latter. Had the PLP accepted the result and worked with Corbyn, and had the media reported his stance neutrally the polls could have been quite different.

A lot of the PLP agree with the New Labour view that the only way to win general elections is to ditch traditional labour values. Hence their horror at Corbyn's success. Pragmatism not idealism is their preference.

There has always been bias against the left in the media. The adjectives used say it all; loony, hard, extreme, far. They don't win fairly they infiltrate, dominate, threaten, bay. The right, on the other hand, are reasonable, moderate, sensible etc.

I can only assume that the preference is for a US type political system where the difference between left and right is so small it's barely noticeable.

Corbyn's success ?

What success are you referring to exactly ?

A couple of by-elections wins , where there was a low turn out.

Corbyn undeniably has a small hard core number of supporters, but certainly not sufficient to win an election.

He is a left wing politician, who voted against  the previous Labour government on hundreds of occasions, which is a matter of record by the way.

If you have any delusions that the British public will vote in a left wing government, you are solely mistaken, especially as Labour governments have a reputation for overspending, regardless of the fact that Conservative administrations have borrowed far more than any Labour one has.

I listened in to a phone in  last night on LBC about Corbyn. Some people admired him for his 'honesty' compared to other politicians. Others said they voted for him in the last election because of that. However, there was an overwhelming view that the media and other parties 'had it in for him', though they could not quantify that. One even said there was a global conspiracy involving the planning of a world government, planning to destroy Corbyn. *&*%£

You can here that by the way, on LBC's podcasts, specifically Clive Bull's broadcast last night.

http://lbc.audioagain.com/presenters/10-clive-bull

Has it actually occurred to you, like it or not, that Corbyn is un-electable ?

A few weeks ago he was asked to say which way he voted in the referendum, and he refused to answer. Someone with principles would have answered that question, he didn't, and the flac he has received because of that and his viewed inaction during the referendum campaign, knowingf of course in the past he was vocally anti-EU, in my view partially led to this new election.

By the way, I'm still waiting for an answer to the allegation you made that I insulted Corbyn. Can you do me the courtesy of answering that ?



Offline G-Unit

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #277 on: August 23, 2016, 09:26:19 AM »
Corbyn's success ?

What success are you referring to exactly ?

A couple of by-elections wins , where there was a low turn out.

Corbyn undeniably has a small hard core number of supporters, but certainly not sufficient to win an election.

He is a left wing politician, who voted against  the previous Labour government on hundreds of occasions, which is a matter of record by the way.

If you have any delusions that the British public will vote in a left wing government, you are solely mistaken, especially as Labour governments have a reputation for overspending, regardless of the fact that Conservative administrations have borrowed far more than any Labour one has.

I listened in to a phone in  last night on LBC about Corbyn. Some people admired him for his 'honesty' compared to other politicians. Others said they voted for him in the last election because of that. However, there was an overwhelming view that the media and other parties 'had it in for him', though they could not quantify that. One even said there was a global conspiracy involving the planning of a world government, planning to destroy Corbyn. *&*%£

You can here that by the way, on LBC's podcasts, specifically Clive Bull's broadcast last night.

http://lbc.audioagain.com/presenters/10-clive-bull

Has it actually occurred to you, like it or not, that Corbyn is un-electable ?

A few weeks ago he was asked to say which way he voted in the referendum, and he refused to answer. Someone with principles would have answered that question, he didn't, and the flac he has received because of that and his viewed inaction during the referendum campaign, knowingf of course in the past he was vocally anti-EU, in my view partially led to this new election.

By the way, I'm still waiting for an answer to the allegation you made that I insulted Corbyn. Can you do me the courtesy of answering that ?

Corbyn's success was in being elected as leader by the Labour membership.

I'm not surprised people are considering far out answers to explain the media attacks on Corbyn. Why the ferocity if he's unelectable? Leave him alone and he'll lose a general election and sink back into obscurity; simple!

He voted against 'New Labour' because they departed from traditional labour values, I expect.

If I accused you of something you didn't do I apologise.
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Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #278 on: August 23, 2016, 01:20:47 PM »
Corbyn's success was in being elected as leader by the Labour membership.

I'm not surprised people are considering far out answers to explain the media attacks on Corbyn. Why the ferocity if he's unelectable? Leave him alone and he'll lose a general election and sink back into obscurity; simple!

He voted against 'New Labour' because they departed from traditional labour values, I expect.

If I accused you of something you didn't do I apologise.
you don't seem able to comprehend why Labour MPs want to be led a) by someone who can lead and b) by someone who appeals to the broad electorate.  Why should they wait for what will amount to the best part of ten years before standing a chance of forming government, when they can clearly see what the problem is now?

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #279 on: August 23, 2016, 01:49:18 PM »
BTW, it looks like I was right about the train publicity stunt thing - unfortunately I can't access the Telegraph website where I am but google shows a link to a recently posted article showing Corbyn sitting on a seat on that allegedly "rammed" train,  in a half empty carriage.  Perhaps G-Unit can take a look at the article and report back...?

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #280 on: August 23, 2016, 01:56:52 PM »
38 mins ago - Jeremy Corbyn sits on train after filming video on the floor attacks 'ram-packed service' ... Jeremy Corbyn had a seat on a train journey during which he sat on the ground for a video attacking the quality of Britain’s rail services, new CCTV footage obtained by The Telegraph shows.
You visited this page on 23/08/16.

 @)(++(* @)(++(*

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #281 on: August 23, 2016, 02:30:27 PM »
38 mins ago - Jeremy Corbyn sits on train after filming video on the floor attacks 'ram-packed service' ... Jeremy Corbyn had a seat on a train journey during which he sat on the ground for a video attacking the quality of Britain’s rail services, new CCTV footage obtained by The Telegraph shows.
You visited this page on 23/08/16.

 @)(++(* @)(++(*

So Mr. Corbyn was pulling a fast one, trying to show he was an ordinary member of the public. *&*%£

Just had a look at the Telegraph. 8((()*/

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #282 on: August 23, 2016, 03:29:12 PM »
A politician pulling a stroke ? That has to be a first by the dastardly Mr Corbyn he should be thoroughly ashamed of himself
Were he only like that nice Mr Hamilton, that nice Mrs Smith and that nice Mr Osborne..... &%+((£
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #283 on: August 23, 2016, 03:50:09 PM »
On the BBC now too so it must be true:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37167700

Does this restore my opinion to one of equal merit to G-Unit's?  I live in hope..!

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #284 on: August 23, 2016, 03:52:14 PM »
Why are you so starry eyed over Corbyn and completely unable to countenance the possibility that he (a career politician let's not forget) staged the sitting on the floor of the train stunt for the camera (that, let's face it, he had invited along for the ride)?  If it had been ooh, let's say Hillary Benn filmed sitting on the floor instead, your cynicism would no doubt have kicked in big time.  It seems as if Corbyn's followers revere him as some sort of saintly, completely altruistic Christ-like figure.  It's weird.
y

It's worth saying again.... ?>)()<