Author Topic: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?  (Read 91217 times)

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stephen25000

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Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #210 on: August 19, 2016, 09:44:41 PM »
Look at the crowds who have turned out to hear him; they don't care about childish point scoring at PMQ's, they care about jobs, housing, infrastructure and a decent chance for all. Labour MP's voting for Tory austerity policies are not what they want. Corbyn may or may not be able to deliver, but he's the only one who is prepared to try.

I have certainly heard his baying crowd of supporters who try to shout others down.

That does not impress me one iota.

How do you know he is the only only one prepared to try and vote down the austerity policies.

Have you heard any of them, including Corbyn saying how they will deal with the real UK debt burden, which including state pensions is in the region of 5 Trillion pounds ?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #211 on: August 19, 2016, 10:40:22 PM »
I have certainly heard his baying crowd of supporters who try to shout others down.

That does not impress me one iota.

How do you know he is the only only one prepared to try and vote down the austerity policies.

Have you heard any of them, including Corbyn saying how they will deal with the real UK debt burden, which including state pensions is in the region of 5 Trillion pounds ?

Baying? I was referring to those like the ten thousand who brought Liverpool Lime Street to a standstill, no baying mob, just ordinary people.

Only 48 MP's voted against the Tory Welfare Reform and Work Bill. Corbyn was one of them. All the other leadership contenders abstained [184 Labour MP's abstained altogether], allowing the Bill to be passed.  The SNP MP's voted against it, as did the LibDems. Those abstaining MP's cannot claim to be socialists imo.

We will have to wait and see financial planning details. What do the Tories plan to do since borrowing rose despite Osborne's attacks on the poor?
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stephen25000

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Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #212 on: August 20, 2016, 07:32:11 AM »
Baying? I was referring to those like the ten thousand who brought Liverpool Lime Street to a standstill, no baying mob, just ordinary people.

Only 48 MP's voted against the Tory Welfare Reform and Work Bill. Corbyn was one of them. All the other leadership contenders abstained [184 Labour MP's abstained altogether], allowing the Bill to be passed.  The SNP MP's voted against it, as did the LibDems. Those abstaining MP's cannot claim to be socialists imo.

We will have to wait and see financial planning details. What do the Tories plan to do since borrowing rose despite Osborne's attacks on the poor?

You can refer to what you want.

The baying groups of Corbynite supporters have been plainly on vision in the Television Hustings and other broadcast material, shouting down and abusing those who don't follow the Corbyn line, and he has done nothing about that.

As to financial planning, it is a matter of fact that Tory governments have borrowed more money than Labour ones. Neither seem to be concerned openly by the National Debt.

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

Offline G-Unit

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #213 on: August 20, 2016, 08:30:51 AM »
You can refer to what you want.

The baying groups of Corbynite supporters have been plainly on vision in the Television Hustings and other broadcast material, shouting down and abusing those who don't follow the Corbyn line, and he has done nothing about that.

As to financial planning, it is a matter of fact that Tory governments have borrowed more money than Labour ones. Neither seem to be concerned openly by the National Debt.

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

You can abuse Corbyn all you want, but the fact remains he appears to have more grassroots support than any other member of the PLP. The more abuse he gets the more support he gathers. I wonder what those people are seeing that you can't?
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stephen25000

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Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #214 on: August 20, 2016, 08:56:13 AM »
You can abuse Corbyn all you want, but the fact remains he appears to have more grassroots support than any other member of the PLP. The more abuse he gets the more support he gathers. I wonder what those people are seeing that you can't?

You seem to have your head stuck in the clouds.

Where have I abused Corbyn ?

I just don't think he is up to the job.

As to abuse, his supporters certainly are abusing others, and he has done nothing about it. In the hustings broadcast on the B.B.C. from Nottingham, Owen Smith was shouted down and abused by Corbynites. Corbyn said nothing. Mind you, he was smirking.

Did you hear what Galloway called Smith last night on Talk-Sport, repeatedly ?

You need to observe what is going on.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 10:45:21 AM by stephen25000 »

stephen25000

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Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #215 on: August 20, 2016, 09:03:10 AM »
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/19/labour-leadership-1000-councillors-sign-letter-backing-owen-smith

More than 1,000 Labour councillors sign letter backing Owen Smith

Letter says councillors do not have faith in Jeremy Corbyn’s ‘weak leadership’ and warns UK is facing existential threat

 Labour's leadership hopefuls Smith and Corbyn

 Smith is ‘the only path forward to a Labour government’, letter says. It follows Corbyn winning the support of 84% of local Labour parties.

 
More than 1,000 Labour councillors have signed a letter of support for the Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith, representing more than 200 local authorities.

The letter, signed by representatives from England, Wales and Scotland, says the councillors do not have faith in Jeremy Corbyn’s “weak leadership”, warning that the country faces an existential threat from the vote to leave the EU with a potential second Scottish referendum looming.

The letter, which follows a separate piece from 246 councillors endorsing Corbyn, was organised by the Nottinghamshire councillor Michael Payne and the Westminster councillor Tim Roca. There are about 6,000 Labour councillors in the UK.

Payne said the support came from councils in a wide variety of areas, urban and rural. It includes councillors from traditionally leftwing areas such as Brighton and Hove, Glasgow and Liverpool.

Payne said: “Corbyn’s weak leadership risks condemning Britain to a generation of destructive Conservative rule. Labour councillors are supporting Owen Smith because only he can unite Labour against the Tories, and lead us back to power where we can transform the lives of working people for the better.”

The letter says the councillors will be casting their votes for Smith because they see him as “the only path forward to a Labour government”.

 Corbyn and Smith at a hustings event in Birmingham

 Corbyn and Smith at a hustings event in Birmingham on Thursday. Photograph: Darren Staples/Reuters
They also warn of “militants in both wings of our party who are determined to carry out a civil war against each other, whether it harms working people or not”, and say a unifying leader was the only solution.


The stories you need to read, in one handy email

“We have intimidation and bullying in constituency Labour parties up and down the country,” the letter states. “We have those who seem to prefer perpetual division to the job of winning power for the good of those we represent.”

It adds: “Our country faces an existential threat from nationalists and poor-bashing Tories. A new Scottish referendum is on the horizon. This is no time for Labour to keep fighting itself. The next general election has already begun.

“Owen Smith, with his experience, especially as shadow secretary of state fighting austerity, has a firm grasp of the issues and will be prepared to lead our party from day one.”

Smith said: “Labour councils are the first line of defence for communities which are being hardest hit by this rightwing Tory government. We need to elect more Labour councils and councillors, but that will only be achieved if we are a radical, credible party which people trust.”

Corbyn won local party nominations by a landslide in the Labour leadership contest, taking 84% of constituency nominations from those who chose to nominate.

Smith took just 53 nominations compared to 285 who backed the Labour leader, who took support from CLPs who nominated all three other candidates in 2015 – Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall.

Alfie

  • Guest
Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #216 on: August 20, 2016, 09:40:29 AM »
You can abuse Corbyn all you want, but the fact remains he appears to have more grassroots support than any other member of the PLP. The more abuse he gets the more support he gathers. I wonder what those people are seeing that you can't?
Just because someone has a lot of "grassroots" support doesn't mean that what they have to offer is right or worthwhile, history has plenty of examples of extremely suspect movements that rapidly grew in huge "grassroots. popularity based on the cult of a single personality, movements that ultimately wreaked havoc on the peoples whose best interests they allegedly represented.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #217 on: August 20, 2016, 11:47:28 AM »
Baying? I was referring to those like the ten thousand who brought Liverpool Lime Street to a standstill, no baying mob, just ordinary people.

Only 48 MP's voted against the Tory Welfare Reform and Work Bill. Corbyn was one of them. All the other leadership contenders abstained [184 Labour MP's abstained altogether], allowing the Bill to be passed.  The SNP MP's voted against it, as did the LibDems. Those abstaining MP's cannot claim to be socialists imo.

We will have to wait and see financial planning details. What do the Tories plan to do since borrowing rose despite Osborne's attacks on the poor?

The same as any other government of any political persuasion as their choices are limited.
Increase taxes or increase borrowing.
How it is presented is the interesting bit when the politicians try to tell us it ain't really what it looks like.
They will have a benny at each other about income tax which will only raise 25% of the total bill anyway...... &%+((£
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 03:36:18 PM by Alice Purjorick »
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline G-Unit

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #218 on: August 20, 2016, 03:13:07 PM »
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/19/labour-leadership-1000-councillors-sign-letter-backing-owen-smith

More than 1,000 Labour councillors sign letter backing Owen Smith

Letter says councillors do not have faith in Jeremy Corbyn’s ‘weak leadership’ and warns UK is facing existential threat

 Labour's leadership hopefuls Smith and Corbyn

 Smith is ‘the only path forward to a Labour government’, letter says. It follows Corbyn winning the support of 84% of local Labour parties.

 
More than 1,000 Labour councillors have signed a letter of support for the Labour leadership candidate Owen Smith, representing more than 200 local authorities.

The letter, signed by representatives from England, Wales and Scotland, says the councillors do not have faith in Jeremy Corbyn’s “weak leadership”, warning that the country faces an existential threat from the vote to leave the EU with a potential second Scottish referendum looming.

The letter, which follows a separate piece from 246 councillors endorsing Corbyn, was organised by the Nottinghamshire councillor Michael Payne and the Westminster councillor Tim Roca. There are about 6,000 Labour councillors in the UK.

Payne said the support came from councils in a wide variety of areas, urban and rural. It includes councillors from traditionally leftwing areas such as Brighton and Hove, Glasgow and Liverpool.

Payne said: “Corbyn’s weak leadership risks condemning Britain to a generation of destructive Conservative rule. Labour councillors are supporting Owen Smith because only he can unite Labour against the Tories, and lead us back to power where we can transform the lives of working people for the better.”

The letter says the councillors will be casting their votes for Smith because they see him as “the only path forward to a Labour government”.

 Corbyn and Smith at a hustings event in Birmingham

 Corbyn and Smith at a hustings event in Birmingham on Thursday. Photograph: Darren Staples/Reuters
They also warn of “militants in both wings of our party who are determined to carry out a civil war against each other, whether it harms working people or not”, and say a unifying leader was the only solution.


The stories you need to read, in one handy email

“We have intimidation and bullying in constituency Labour parties up and down the country,” the letter states. “We have those who seem to prefer perpetual division to the job of winning power for the good of those we represent.”

It adds: “Our country faces an existential threat from nationalists and poor-bashing Tories. A new Scottish referendum is on the horizon. This is no time for Labour to keep fighting itself. The next general election has already begun.

“Owen Smith, with his experience, especially as shadow secretary of state fighting austerity, has a firm grasp of the issues and will be prepared to lead our party from day one.”

Smith said: “Labour councils are the first line of defence for communities which are being hardest hit by this rightwing Tory government. We need to elect more Labour councils and councillors, but that will only be achieved if we are a radical, credible party which people trust.”

Corbyn won local party nominations by a landslide in the Labour leadership contest, taking 84% of constituency nominations from those who chose to nominate.

Smith took just 53 nominations compared to 285 who backed the Labour leader, who took support from CLPs who nominated all three other candidates in 2015 – Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall.

Smith fought against austerity by abstaining in the vote on the Bill I mentioned earlier. Not much of a fighter, is he?

So 1,000 Labour councillors and 172 MP's don't want Corbyn? 2.5K members do. That's it in a nutshell really.

Michael Payne and Tim Roca? Would-be career MP's who both failed to get elected in 2015. I'm sure this letter will earn them both some brownie points if the right of the Party proves victorious.
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stephen25000

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Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #219 on: August 20, 2016, 03:19:50 PM »
Smith fought against austerity by abstaining in the vote on the Bill I mentioned earlier. Not much of a fighter, is he?

So 1,000 Labour councillors and 172 MP's don't want Corbyn? 2.5K members do. That's it in a nutshell really.

Michael Payne and Tim Roca? Would-be career MP's who both failed to get elected in 2015. I'm sure this letter will earn them both some brownie points if the right of the Party proves victorious.

Where is the money for all Corbyn's ideas to come from ?

I have noticed you pay no attention to this at all.

If you think Corbyn is going to herald a golden age of socialism and justice for all, you are greatly mistaken.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2016, 03:22:03 PM by stephen25000 »

Offline G-Unit

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #220 on: August 20, 2016, 06:23:14 PM »
Where is the money for all Corbyn's ideas to come from ?

I have noticed you pay no attention to this at all.

If you think Corbyn is going to herald a golden age of socialism and justice for all, you are greatly mistaken.

I think you're mistaking me for someone who cares. I'm merely an interested observer.

Harold Wilson said;

Whichever party is in office, the Treasury is in power.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/harold_wilson.html

He also said;

This Party is a moral crusade or it is nothing.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/harold_wilson.html
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stephen25000

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Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #221 on: August 20, 2016, 07:38:45 PM »
I think you're mistaking me for someone who cares. I'm merely an interested observer.

Harold Wilson said;

Whichever party is in office, the Treasury is in power.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/harold_wilson.html

He also said;

This Party is a moral crusade or it is nothing.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/harold_wilson.html

Well as you are commenting and have accused me of insulting Corbyn, you clearly are taking it personally.

By the way, what use is a 'moral crusade' without the power to implement the principles held ?

Offline G-Unit

Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #222 on: August 20, 2016, 09:00:13 PM »
Well as you are commenting and have accused me of insulting Corbyn, you clearly are taking it personally.

By the way, what use is a 'moral crusade' without the power to implement the principles held ?

I'm commenting because I have an academic interest in politics and in popular movements. As a young person in the 60's I found the civil rights movements fascinating. More recently there was Live Aid. I can see similarities.

The power allegedly rests with the people. If enough people want something the theory is they can use their votes to get it. We shall see.
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Alfie

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Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #223 on: August 21, 2016, 02:55:18 AM »
I'm commenting because I have an academic interest in politics and in popular movements. As a young person in the 60's I found the civil rights movements fascinating. More recently there was Live Aid. I can see similarities.

The power allegedly rests with the people. If enough people want something the theory is they can use their votes to get it. We shall see.
Live Aid???!  You're equating Live Aid with the civil rights movements of the 60s???!  Hilarious!!

Do you actually support Corbyn and his policies or do you just enjoying arguing for the sake of it?

Alfie

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Re: Is the Labour Party in danger of imploding?
« Reply #224 on: August 21, 2016, 08:50:02 AM »

Saddiq Khan nails it:

 He said that through the referendum and its aftermath, Mr Corbyn had "failed to show the leadership we desperately needed".
"And you can't just blame a 'hostile media' and let Jeremy and his team off the hook.
"I know from my own election - up against a nasty and divisive Tory campaign - that if we are strong and clear enough in our convictions, the message will get through to the public.
"That's a test that Jeremy totally failed in the EU referendum. Why would things be different in a general election?
"His position on EU membership was never clear - and voters didn't believe him."

What is Jeremy's position on EU membership and Brexit??  Does anyone apart from Jeremy actually know?