Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 835643 times)

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Offline Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #555 on: May 21, 2015, 07:00:45 PM »

All of you.  This isn't personal.

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #556 on: May 21, 2015, 07:00:51 PM »
Unfortunately a lot of the mtyhmisconceptions emanated from the co-ordinator of the investigation and some very flawed reasoning formed the basis of his approach ~ none more so than his misunderstanding of the use of dogs in the gathering of evidence. 

He dealt with many drug cases in his career ... did the Portuguese not have trained sniffer dogs helping in these investigations which might have given him a better understanding of how the dogs actually worked and how they were used?


... quote ...
Meanwhile, we were supposed to receive American electronic equipment that detects human bodies thanks to the odour that emanates from them (Scent Transfer Unit 100). But the equipment, blocked by customs, arrived late. We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral

Are you satisfied that is an accurate translation and that perhaps it should have read:
"An American electronic device allowing to identify human beings through the compounds detected in human odours was requested".
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #557 on: May 21, 2015, 07:04:01 PM »
A slight difference between pointing to a dead bird and pointing precisely to a speck of blood not visible to the naked eye - the dog's nose would have to hover millimetres above the speck surely?

Like you and many others on this forum what I know about the operating and olfactory detail of woofers could be written in 20 point on the back of a penny black. So I haven't a clue.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Alfred R Jones

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #558 on: May 21, 2015, 07:32:47 PM »
Like you and many others on this forum what I know about the operating and olfactory detail of woofers could be written in 20 point on the back of a penny black. So I haven't a clue.
You don't need to know anything about the dogs to know that in order for it to accurately pinpoint a microscopic dot of blood, its nose would (logically) have to be incredibly close to the microscopic dot it was alerting to. 

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #559 on: May 21, 2015, 07:43:02 PM »
We could just listen to what Grime says......shame amaral didn't.  Amaral ignored Grime's reports and reached his own false conclusions...

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #560 on: May 21, 2015, 07:50:07 PM »
Are you satisfied that is an accurate translation and that perhaps it should have read:
"An American electronic device allowing to identify human beings through the compounds detected in human odours was requested".

Actually ... if I may make so bold,  that part of the quote is irrelevant to the crux of the quote which was ...

  We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral
Meaning our man in Portugal was under the mistaken impression ~ the case was cracked ... thus proving his total ignorance of the actual role of the dogs.

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #561 on: May 21, 2015, 08:06:41 PM »
Actually ... if I may make so bold,  that part of the quote is irrelevant to the crux of the quote which was ...

  We didn't need to use it, having obtained very concrete results, thanks to the dogs. Goncalo Amaral
Meaning our man in Portugal was under the mistaken impression ~ the case was cracked ... thus proving his total ignorance of the actual role of the dogs.

If the bit I pointed out has been inaccurately translated what reliability can be placed upon the rest of it?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #562 on: May 21, 2015, 08:12:07 PM »
You don't need to know anything about the dogs to know that in order for it to accurately pinpoint a microscopic dot of blood, its nose would (logically) have to be incredibly close to the microscopic dot it was alerting to.

I wouldn't know see my previous post.
If we are going to preface with "I would have thought" or insert "logically" or "You don't have to know anything about dogs to know something about them" and similar, into opinions it suggests we don't know.
You may think you know; I know I don't know.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #563 on: May 21, 2015, 08:25:47 PM »
It's July. The hypothesis of death, including by the parents, is being seriously considered.

A few days later, we welcome Mark Harrison, a specialist in murder, and the search for missing persons and victims of natural disasters. National advisor to the British police, he is well known for his exceptional professional experience. He has already participated in dozens of international criminal investigations.

After a week of intense work, Harrison presents the results of his study to my coordinating group. Even if we were expecting it, his conclusions confirm our worst fears. The most plausible scenario is the following: there is no doubt that Madeleine is dead, and her body is hidden somewhere in the area around Praia da Luz.

Harrison also suggests that we use the skills of two totally remarkable dogs: the first an EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog), achieves outstanding performance in the detection of human cadaver odour; the second, a CSI dog (Crime Scene Investigation) is capable of smelling the tiniest trace of blood, knowing how to recognise its human origin. (GA)

Commander Mark Harrison

Australian Federal Police

Mark joined the British Police Service in 1987 as a sworn officer where he initially performed uniform general duties. He progressed his career and focused in counter terrorism and the forensic aspects of search.

In 2002 Mark was appointed the British Police national coordinator for serial homicide, abduction and matters of national security where there were matters relating to forensic search. He fulfilled a senior detective leadership role as a consultant to fellow detectives and to government policy forums, consulting widely within the UK and other countries including, but not limiting to, the USA, Australia and New Zealand.

In 2004 Mark was awarded by HM The Queen the MBE for services to policing in relation to serial homicide and counter terrorist investigations.

In 2007 Mark was awarded a visiting professorship in earth and ocean sciences specializing in geoforensics in recognition to the contribution he has made in this emerging area of forensic science.

In 2010 Mark joined the Australian Federal Police as the coordinator of their crime scene sciences department and was promoted to Commander in February 2012 where he currently leads a large diverse team of operational forensic staff.

http://forensicacademy.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Efficient-Forensic-Science-2.pdf
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #564 on: May 21, 2015, 09:49:01 PM »
IMO the theory in VDM film is proved incorrect by the minimum time the CSST experiment found.


Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #565 on: May 21, 2015, 10:40:19 PM »
Thanks for this Brietta.  And DCI.

I've never been overly impressed by the dogs.  I find them more fun and games than hard fact.

One of the flags was the 'deployed 200 times' warning marker.  That sounded like one hell of a lot of unsolved dead/missing body cases.

However, I'm sure that you can understand that searching for 'cadaver dogs' on a forum like this is a pointless exercise.

 8((()*/

The police do not consider them "fun and games". They don't have a budget for this.

Read the False Alerts section here :

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

It clearly states that Eddie was used 200 times but not in 200 cases

200 criminal case "searches" is the clue


Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #566 on: May 21, 2015, 10:46:03 PM »
Funnily enough I would say exactly the same about "sceptics" who seem to have blind faith in the ability of a pair of dogs and who won't hear a negative word said against them, even if it comes in the form of scientific research proving issues such as the potential for handler bias (see my link).

Not so much "blind faith" (bit of an exageration there)  as an aversion to the myriad of "possibilities and probabilities" put forth as to what the cadaver dog was alerting to (and all myriad ideas relating only to the one apartment someone went "missing from" which is illogicl in itself)

The dog handler tells us what he alerts to but we have a very very long list "created" by "non-sceptics"

Now, who was saying something about "myths"?


Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #567 on: May 21, 2015, 10:48:24 PM »
IMO the theory in VDM film is proved incorrect by the minimum time the CSST experiment found.

The routine change was earlier.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #568 on: May 21, 2015, 10:48:47 PM »
You don't need to know anything about the dogs to know that in order for it to accurately pinpoint a microscopic dot of blood, its nose would (logically) have to be incredibly close to the microscopic dot it was alerting to.

Not sure why you are still banging on about this. Keela the blood dog does get "up close and personal" to the blood she detects.

Do you have an example of where she has not done so?

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #569 on: May 21, 2015, 11:00:55 PM »
If the bit I pointed out has been inaccurately translated what reliability can be placed upon the rest of it?

As much reliability as any document translated from one language to another then to another and back again the Lord knows how many times.

Inspection of the apartments.
TRANSLATED FROM FRENCH BY ANNA ESSE
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....