Is this another example of a potentially crucial error by the VRD handler?

[Robittybob1]

Back to the dogs please.

[misty]

Having looked at the 'problem' highlighted it seems there isn't one. The collection of forensic evidence from the area of the couch had nothing to do with Eddie the cadaver dog's alert. The forensics were collected after viewing the filmed alerts of Keela the blood dog. She was used during the collection process also to make sure nothing was missed;

they watched the films of the searches performed by the dog specialised in detection of human blood so that they obtained an understanding of the area from where the tiles should be collected and how many tiles they should collect.

After seeing the images and in agreement with the officers of DIC of Portimao it was defined that the undersigned should proceed with the recovery of four tiles. It was also defined that this operation of recovery of the tiles would also be filmed.

After the recovery of the four tiles and the skirting board the dog specialised in the detection of traces of human blood was put into the area from where the tiles had been recovered, the English police officer who coordinated the movement of the dog, Martin Grime, having informed the undersigned that they should proceed with the recovery of another piece of tile that was close to the area from where the tile identified as number 1 had been lifted, that terminating the recovery of the tiles signalled by the dog.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_EDDIE-KEELA.htm

I beg to differ that the collection of forensics behind the sofa had nothing to do with Eddie. It was Eddie's alert, interpreted by Grime as being at the central wall/floor juncture, which led to Keela being deployed in that very place. But not to worry if potentially incriminating forensics were actually on the end of the sofa.

[G-Unit]

I beg to differ that the collection of forensics behind the sofa had nothing to do with Eddie. It was Eddie's alert, interpreted by Grime as being at the central wall/floor juncture, which led to Keela being deployed in that very place. But not to worry if potentially incriminating forensics were actually on the end of the sofa.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Which seems to be that Martin Grime misinterpreted his dog's alert. Readers will just have to decide who to believe then. An internet 'armchair detective' with no experience of training or deploying dogs or a police officer with years of experience in doing both.

[Brietta]

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Which seems to be that Martin Grime misinterpreted his dog's alert. Readers will just have to decide who to believe then. An internet 'armchair detective' with no experience of training or deploying dogs or a police officer with years of experience in doing both.

Having watched the video ... I feel you are being a tad harsh in your criticism.  Particularly as Martin Grime has made it abundantly clear that all dog indications require to be substantiated by forensics.  I think his caveat is largely ignored ... but it really shouldn't be ... it is pivotal.

[Alice Purjorick]

Having watched the video ... I feel you are being a tad harsh in your criticism.  Particularly as Martin Grime has made it abundantly clear that all dog indications require to be substantiated by forensics.  I think his caveat is largely ignored ... but it really shouldn't be ... it is pivotal.

Only if the Portuguese court nominated him as the court's expert. Otherwise it matters not. The dog alerts will just be added to a heap of other circumstantial evidence.

[G-Unit]

Having watched the video ... I feel you are being a tad harsh in your criticism.  Particularly as Martin Grime has made it abundantly clear that all dog indications require to be substantiated by forensics.  I think his caveat is largely ignored ... but it really shouldn't be ... it is pivotal.

I don't follow, sorry.

[Miss Taken Identity]

Only if the Portuguese court nominated him as the court's expert. Otherwise it matters not. The dog alerts will just be added to a heap of other circumstantial evidence.

Well, this is the crux isn't it really. There is no evidence that the dogs got a whiff of MBM's cadaver scent, or her blood. AND Grime makes no claims  of this. His claim is they did in fact  sniff scents which they were trained to do.

As has been mentioned previously regarding pigs. The police  or SY may well have the facility to contact the couple who rented the apartment  with the  Asian sounding name, to ask if they had pig meat in the lounge and bedroom. I would doubt those Asian sounding named persons would be Muslim or Sikhs or Hindu's as they collectively do not eat mean or pigs in particular. So that narrows it down to Christian Asians.

The cross contamination is interesting,however as Sunny says.. strange no scent in the kitchen or patio

[misty]

Well, this is the crux isn't it really. There is no evidence that the dogs got a whiff of MBM's cadaver scent, or her blood. AND Grime makes no claims  of this. His claim is they did in fact  sniff scents which they were trained to do.

As has been mentioned previously regarding pigs. The police  or SY may well have the facility to contact the couple who rented the apartment  with the  Asian sounding name, to ask if they had pig meat in the lounge and bedroom. I would doubt those Asian sounding named persons would be Muslim or Sikhs or Hindu's as they collectively do not eat mean or pigs in particular. So that narrows it down to Christian Asians.

The cross contamination is interesting,however as Sunny says.. strange no scent in the kitchen or patio

The Portuguese police made the claim, though, despite Grime's caveat & the claim was repeated outwith the investigation.

[misty]

You're entitled to your opinion, of course. Which seems to be that Martin Grime misinterpreted his dog's alert. Readers will just have to decide who to believe then. An internet 'armchair detective' with no experience of training or deploying dogs or a police officer with years of experience in doing both.

My opinion is based on what I can actually see happening, not idle speculation. I am not the only person who can see where Eddie's nose was immediately before the alert but, in Grime's defence, he probably couldn't either at the time. However, any officer analysing the video afterwards should have, imo, noticed where the dog's nose was in relation to the source as reported by Grime.
 Hence my earlier question - what gap in both time & space should be allowed between the dog scenting a source & then alerting to it? I think it's a very important point to consider when watching each of Eddie's alerts.

[G-Unit]

My opinion is based on what I can actually see happening, not idle speculation. I am not the only person who can see where Eddie's nose was immediately before the alert but, in Grime's defence, he probably couldn't either at the time. However, any officer analysing the video afterwards should have, imo, noticed where the dog's nose was in relation to the source as reported by Grime.
 Hence my earlier question - what gap in both time & space should be allowed between the dog scenting a source & then alerting to it? I think it's a very important point to consider when watching each of Eddie's alerts.

Did Eddie normally alert immediately after sniffing the exact spot where human blood could be found?

[misty]

Did Eddie normally alert immediately after sniffing the exact spot where human blood could be found?

The only example we have of an alert by Eddie where blood was definitely located was to the key fob when situated in the side pocket of the Scenic.

[Robittybob1]

"It is not an exact science".  - Kate McCann

[G-Unit]

The only example we have of an alert by Eddie where blood was definitely located was to the key fob when situated in the side pocket of the Scenic.

So you can't compare Eddie's alert behind the sofa with any of his other alerts?

[misty]

So you can't compare Eddie's alert behind the sofa with any of his other alerts?

Was the alert to the clothing a precise alert or a general area alert? Was the alert to CC a general area alert or a precise alert? Was the alert in the garden a precise alert or general area alert? Can you see how the handler could have made a decision? E.g. was the purported alert to CC in the villa really an alert to something on the table, the chair or the far cupboard? Keela wasn't deployed so there may well have been blood deposits at any one of the aforementioned places  - a possible lost forensic opportunity. "

[Brietta]

I don't follow, sorry.

That's a pity ... so sorry about that ... but it seems perfectly clear to me so I can't help you any further than I have already.

I think it is perfectly valid to discuss what Eddie was doing at the couch from which Amaral thought Madeleine had fallen to her death ... making it quite an important piece of the jigsaw.