UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
UK and North American politics. => A look at British politics in the light of the decision to leave the EU. => Topic started by: G-Unit on November 04, 2017, 09:16:18 AM
-
When Sir Michael Fallon resigned he suggested that his behaviour would have been seen as acceptable 10-15 years ago. Acceptable to whom though? The journalist he touched threatened to punch him at the time, so it wasn't acceptable to her.
On the first day of my first job aged 15 I was instructed by the older girl in the office never to go into the manager's office alone. She also told me that I should go with her if he called her into his office. That was in 1959.
There was no-one we could complain to and if we had we would have been patted on the head and told to keep on running.
Fifteen years ago I was working for an international oil company and the idea that a manager might behave like the one in 1959 did never entered my head. Times had changed and everyone in that workplace was treated with professionalism and respect. Anyone behaving badly towards a colleague would have been in big trouble.
This culture change seems to have been missed by some of our elected representatives in Westminster. Women working there thought it was necessary to warn each other just like my colleague warned me almost 60 years earlier.
I think MP's are elected to represent the interests of both men and women. Fallon appears to disregard the opinion of the woman he groped, which makes him unfit for purpose in my opinion.
-
The years have been kind G-unit. You're looking good on it.
These women need to seriously get a life. If they can't handle some pompous ol letch like Fallon they should forget politics.
Are we really to believe that men don't experience unwanted attention sexual or otherwise?
A man forcing himself on a woman ie sexual assault/rape is something quite different but wandering hands and suggestive comments professional women should be able to handle letting the man know in no uncertain terms it stops then and there or there will be consequences.
Strange how none of these women seem to have set the guy up and recorded such encounters on phones?
I wonder about all these attractive women sucking up to fat, ugly men like Weinstein in the first place. Same as old wrinklies like Jagger et al.
-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/9468557/Janet-Napolitanos-aides-sexually-humiliated-male-agents.html
-
The years have been kind G-unit. You're looking good on it.
These women need to seriously get a life. If they can't handle some pompous ol letch like Fallon they should forget politics.
Are we really to believe that men don't experience unwanted attention sexual or otherwise?
A man forcing himself on a woman ie sexual assault/rape is something quite different but wandering hands and suggestive comments professional women should be able to handle letting the man know in no uncertain terms it stops then and there or there will be consequences.
Strange how none of these women seem to have set the guy up and recorded such encounters on phones?
I wonder about all these attractive women sucking up to fat, ugly men like Weinstein in the first place. Same as old wrinklies like Jagger et al.
Some of the women did deal with it, which is why they are still in their jobs. Others may have left because they found it too much. My points are; why did they have to deal with such behaviour in the workplace in this day and age, and can someone with such attitudes to women truly represent their interests in Parliament?
-
Some of the women did deal with it, which is why they are still in their jobs. Others may have left because they found it too much. My points are; why did they have to deal with such behaviour in the workplace in this day and age, and can someone with such attitudes to women truly represent their interests in Parliament?
If women at Westminster find the likes of Fallon too hot to handle then I would suggest the rough n tumble of politics isn't for them. I'm not condoning the likes of Fallon but what do we have so far: an unwanted hand on a knee and some lewd comment? The woman concerned, Julia Hartley-Brewer, is hardly a shrinking violet.
At the end of the day it's abuse of power in the workplace which can take many forms. Only good corporate governance can root this sort of thing out. I would be far more concerned about someone suffering intimidation in the workplace where there's a real mismatch of power.
Maybe the national curriculum needs to cover assertiveness training and such like.
Is Fallon just a dirty old man or what? If the former does it mean he's incapable of representing women in parliament?
-
I think it's hilarious. How long before Britain gets a Statute of Limitations on Historic Sex abuse, and The Accused remain anonymous unless proven Guilty?
-
If women at Westminster find the likes of Fallon too hot to handle then I would suggest the rough n tumble of politics isn't for them. I'm not condoning the likes of Fallon but what do we have so far: an unwanted hand on a knee and some lewd comment? The woman concerned, Julia Hartley-Brewer, is hardly a shrinking violet.
At the end of the day it's abuse of power in the workplace which can take many forms. Only good corporate governance can root this sort of thing out. I would be far more concerned about someone suffering intimidation in the workplace where there's a real mismatch of power.
Maybe the national curriculum needs to cover assertiveness training and such like.
Is Fallon just a dirty old man or what? If the former does it mean he's incapable of representing women in parliament?
I have old fashioned attitudes in some areas. I found the idea that a man having sex with a drunken woman was guilty of rape quite wrong. Expecting a man to judge whether a woman is too drunk to know her own mind was a step too far imo.
This one needs assertiveness training it seems, or did she just need her job;
‘He took me to Soho and gave me the money to buy two vibrators. He stood outside the shop while I did. He said one was for his wife and the other was for a woman who worked in his constituency office.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5027709/Brexit-Minister-Mark-Garnier-sent-PA-buy-sex-toys.html#ixzz4xUGW1PVH
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
-
Oh ffs. There is a massive difference between being sexually violated and having a fit of the vapours because a sad, balding, inadequate knobhead rubs your knee, calls you a "spirited filly" and tells you that his wife doesn't understand him. When did professional women become so weak and whiny? There are far worse things in life than a silly, randy man making an appointment that his willy can't keep.
When I was 16 I worked in a jewellery factory, there was an amazing cross-section of people there and it was a real eye-opener. 3 lovely, middle-aged ladies were in charge of packing...Eunice, Joyce and Joan. No man under the age of 60 left that department unscathed, they were lucky if they came out with their trousers still up and not smothered in 3 different shades of lipstick. And Gawd help a young bloke who innocently brought some parcels in and was due to get married. What those game old birds could do with bubble wrap and duct tape had to be seen to be believed.
-
And.... $6(&.....
I have to say.... from when I was 11, I was involved with showjumping, eventing and dressage. We ALL knew that most trainers, teachers and grooms were deeply dodgy. If you got caught once in the corner of a stable, shame on them. If you were silly enough to get caught again.....
I KNOW it was awful, and it shouldn't have happened, but it did. You only have to remember what was on TV at the time...Benny Hill, Hallo Cheeky, The Sweeney, Rising Damp....it was just accepted. Sexism and racism. We weren't such pissy-willies in those days. Now, apparently, we have to swoon away in a dead faint if a hairy, horrible man buys you a frappylappychino. If that's a thing.
Shouldn't we all be more worried about Trump grabbing pussies and hovering his fat, orange finger over the button?
&%54%
-
Oh ffs. There is a massive difference between being sexually violated and having a fit of the vapours because a sad, balding, inadequate knobhead rubs your knee, calls you a "spirited filly" and tells you that his wife doesn't understand him. When did professional women become so weak and whiny? There are far worse things in life than a silly, randy man making an appointment that his willy can't keep.
When I was 16 I worked in a jewellery factory, there was an amazing cross-section of people there and it was a real eye-opener. 3 lovely, middle-aged ladies were in charge of packing...Eunice, Joyce and Joan. No man under the age of 60 left that department unscathed, they were lucky if they came out with their trousers still up and not smothered in 3 different shades of lipstick. And Gawd help a young bloke who innocently brought some parcels in and was due to get married. What those game old birds could do with bubble wrap and duct tape had to be seen to be believed.
Most of those guys given the choice "This afternoon you can take this gear to Eunice in the packing dept or you can sit on top of the boiler [heating boiler that is] for three hours" would opt for sitting on the heating
boiler. The sad part is that the Eunices Joyces and Joans of this world were probably best mates with the mothers of some of their victims.
Engineering blue was a popular tool [if you will forgive the expression] in some places.
Do people really use expressions like "spirited filly" these days? It sounds like from the same era and class as women who call men "chaps". There are some dodgy "chaps" and "fillies" about learn to spot them and take appropriate action.
"A scorpion asks a frog to carry it across a river. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung, but the scorpion argues that if it did so, they would both drown. Considering this, the frog agrees, but midway across the river the scorpion does indeed sting the frog, dooming them both. When the frog asks the scorpion why, the scorpion replies that it was in its nature to do so".
-
I remember the women in the cotton mills. Young men just leaving school were terrified of them, but it wasn't an abuse of power. I learned to stick up for myself like most older women did because we had to. The prevailing opinion in my young days was still the 'men can't control themselves' one. If they misbehaved the 'temptress' in the short skirt got the blame, right up to gang rape. I remember a case where some soldiers raped a girl who was daft enough to go into the barracks with one of them. She got the blame for entering the 'lion's den' as it were and they got off.
Some on here still seem to think these men are just sad pathetic dirty old men. I think if they have power in the workplace and use it to sexually harass women they are deliberately and cynically abusing their power for their own ends. They know it too, that's why they're resigning.
-
I remember the women in the cotton mills. Young men just leaving school were terrified of them, but it wasn't an abuse of power. I learned to stick up for myself like most older women did because we had to. The prevailing opinion in my young days was still the 'men can't control themselves' one. If they misbehaved the 'temptress' in the short skirt got the blame, right up to gang rape. I remember a case where some soldiers raped a girl who was daft enough to go into the barracks with one of them. She got the blame for entering the 'lion's den' as it were and they got off.
Some on here still seem to think these men are just sad pathetic dirty old men. I think if they have power in the workplace and use it to sexually harass women they are deliberately and cynically abusing their power for their own ends. They know it too, that's why they're resigning.
How do you know the young men were "terrified"? And who determines what is genuinely a 'terrifying' experience and what isn't eg an irrational fear, anxiety disorder etc?
I think we all agree anything that constitutes a criminal offence eg sexual assault or rape should be dealt with by the full force of the law. However with regard to the likes of Fallon we're not talking about anything criminal are we? We're talking invading personal space and lewd comments? Julia Brewer-Hartley accused Fallon of repeatedly putting a hand on her knee during dinner. Andrea Leadsom apparently said in Fallons presence she had cold hands and he said he knew where she could put them to warm them up! He also put his arm around her. I started working in financial services in the late 80's which was, and still is, a very male dominated industry. Apart from support staff I was the only female working in operations. In the winter I would always complain the office was too cold and can't recall the number of times a male said 'I'll warm you up' or the like. Frankly it didn't even register. In the end one of the managers arranged for a portable heater to be placed around my work station to prevent arguments about the air conditioning.
The likes of Julia Brewer-Hartley and Andrea Leadsom are amongst the best educated women in the world, influential and with levels of income way above the average. Frankly they are a complete embarrassment. To have these sorts of people whinging about having their personal space invaded and lewd comments is an absolute disgrace when there are real victims of sexual abuse out there who they claim to represent:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11057647/Rotherham-sex-abuse-scandal-1400-children-exploited-by-Asian-gangs-while-authorities-turned-a-blind-eye.html
If Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom can't handle the likes of Fallon then I suggest they stay at home baking cakes.
-
How do you know the young men were "terrified"? And who determines what is genuinely a 'terrifying' experience and what isn't eg an irrational fear, anxiety disorder etc?
I think we all agree anything that constitutes a criminal offence eg sexual assault or rape should be dealt with by the full force of the law. However with regard to the likes of Fallon we're not talking about anything criminal are we? We're talking invading personal space and lewd comments? Julia Brewer-Hartley accused Fallon of repeatedly putting a hand on her knee during dinner. Andrea Leadsom apparently said in Fallons presence she had cold hands and he said he knew where she could put them to warm them up! He also put his arm around her. I started working in financial services in the late 80's which was, and still is, a very male dominated industry. Apart from support staff I was the only female working in operations. In the winter I would always complain the office was too cold and can't recall the number of times a male said 'I'll warm you up' or the like. Frankly it didn't even register. In the end one of the managers arranged for a portable heater to be placed around my work station to prevent arguments about the air conditioning.
The likes of Julia Brewer-Hartley and Andrea Leadsom are amongst the best educated women in the world, influential and with levels of income way above the average. Frankly they are a complete embarrassment. To have these sorts of people whinging about having their personal space invaded and lewd comments is an absolute disgrace when there are real victims of sexual abuse out there who they claim to represent:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11057647/Rotherham-sex-abuse-scandal-1400-children-exploited-by-Asian-gangs-while-authorities-turned-a-blind-eye.html
If Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom can't handle the likes of Fallon then I suggest they stay at home baking cakes.
Are you a woman? Your utter disregard of a woman's right to be treated with respect is suggesting otherwise. In fact you are now making sexist comments.
If someone upsets a work colleague by making sexist remarks or touching them a well-run company will investigate. Sanctions can go as far as dismissal. The injured party can take both the company and the offender to an employment tribunal and further sanctions can be imposed.
So this is not a bit of fun which women should be expected to shake off and ignore, it's right up there with racial and religious discrimination. Some women may invite it, some may find it funny, some may choose to shrug it off, but for those who find it upsetting redress should be available. No-one has the right to tell these women to 'stick to baking'. That comment is the equivalent of telling them not to worry 'their pretty little heads' about it.
-
Are you a woman? Your utter disregard of a woman's right to be treated with respect is suggesting otherwise. In fact you are now making sexist comments.
May I suggest you read my post for gender confirmation.
I don't believe I have disregarded a woman's right to be treated with respect or that I've made any sexist comments.
I don't consider Fallons hand on knee, placing an arm around a shoulder or telling Leadsom he knows where she could put her hands to warm them up is anything other than banter. Some people are simply tactile and one would have to gauge the situation to know whether this was the case with Fallon or whether he was trying it on. If the women objected then surely all they had to do was tell him then and there and not make a big song and dance decades later? You might recall the Oz Pm and some official from Canada broke royal protocol by placing an arm around the queen. Were these men being deliberately disrespectful or simply wanting to ease the Queen's path? Did the Queen make a big song and dance?
If someone upsets a work colleague by making sexist remarks or touching them a well-run company will investigate. Sanctions can go as far as dismissal. The injured party can take both the company and the offender to an employment tribunal and further sanctions can be imposed.
First of all we need clear definitions of where lines are broken. From what I know of the Fallon/Brewer-Hartley/Leadsom I don't believe any lines were broken or such a case would be capable of going before an employment tribunal.
So this is not a bit of fun which women should be expected to shake off and ignore, it's right up there with racial and religious discrimination. Some women may invite it, some may find it funny, some may choose to shrug it off, but for those who find it upsetting redress should be available. No-one has the right to tell these women to 'stick to baking'. That comment is the equivalent of telling them not to worry 'their pretty little heads' about it.
Seriously if women such as Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom are so offended by Fallon's behaviour then I would suggest they never leave their respective homes.
Surely you can see the difference between what these women are complaining about and a vulnerable women in the workplace who is threatened with losing her job, bonus, promotion etc if she doesn't grant sexual favours to a male colleague in a position of influence? Worse still suffers some sort of sexual assault eg breasts touched, hand up skirt?
-
A sexist comment;
"
"If Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom can't handle the likes of Fallon then I suggest they stay at home baking cakes."
Suggesting that women should deal with or accept certain bad behaviour is the kind of argument used by men who approve of or indulge in such behaviour. They behave badly and then accuse an offended woman of being over sensitive because it was 'only banter'. It's not like they raped anyone, is it?
The blame doesn't lie at the women's door. it lies at the door if men who think they can sexually harass women and get away with it. The solution is for men to stop, not for women to devise strategies to deal with it.
This article explains what I'm trying to say;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/06/sexual-harassment-consent-metropolitan-liberal-men
-
A sexist comment;
"
"If Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom can't handle the likes of Fallon then I suggest they stay at home baking cakes."
Suggesting that women should deal with or accept certain bad behaviour is the kind of argument used by men who approve of or indulge in such behaviour. They behave badly and then accuse an offended woman of being over sensitive because it was 'only banter'. It's not like they raped anyone, is it?
The blame doesn't lie at the women's door. it lies at the door if men who think they can sexually harass women and get away with it. The solution is for men to stop, not for women to devise strategies to deal with it.
This article explains what I'm trying to say;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/06/sexual-harassment-consent-metropolitan-liberal-men
I absolutely do not accept that Fallon putting a hand on Brewer-Hartley's knee or his arm around Leadsom's shoulder could in any way, shape or form be regarded as sexual harassment or even bad behaviour. Even Brewer-Hartley herself agrees:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/michael-fallon-quit-over-kneegate-11453218
Take a look at these images of a recent Vogue bash to celebrate the incoming editor: Edward Enninful. Lots of touchy stuff going on:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5059653/British-Vogue-editor-Edward-Enninful-starry-dinner.html?ITO=1490
Are all these people going to complain years later they were touched inappropriately? How is this different from Fallon putting his hand on Brewer Hartley's knee during dinner at a Tory bash? The whole thing is a nonsense. Day after day the news is full of genuine horror stories: acid attacks, murder, paedophillia, rape, wars etc, etc. The likes of Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom deserve nothing than contempt imo.
You seem convinced that it's all one way too?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-5061999/Mariah-Carey-s-former-security-guard-threatens-sue-her.html
-
Re your Guardian article here's Polly Toynbee's take:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/nov/03/polly-toynbee-on-sexual-harassment-video
If you want sexist comment please refer to PT's comments re Spearmint Rhino and 'lads' nights out. PT thinks once men view such shows they are unable to distinguish between the women who feature in these shows and women elsewhere. Not true imo. She fails to recognise that just as many women have 'girly' nights out featuring male strippers and the like:
https://www.dreammen.co.uk/index.html
Imo for every badly behaved man there's a badly behaved woman. When I say badly behaved I mean generally including sexually, personal boundaries, aggressive behaviour etc. I think its a terrible thing to generalise and is akin to saying all Muslims are terrorists. As I said up thread I worked in a very male dominated industry for nearly 25 years and never experienced any problems. I don't believe I look like the back end of a bus either.
-
Polly Toynbee says, like me, that attitudes need to change. Trivialising this kind of behaviour is how these men excuse it. The minute a woman complains she's oversensitive, she can't take a joke, she's making a mountain out of a molehill etc. It's manipulative and it's designed to let them carry on behaving badly. When women agree with them it just shows how deeply they've managed to embed their attitudes in our societies.
-
Polly Toynbee says, like me, that attitudes need to change. Trivialising this kind of behaviour is how these men excuse it. The minute a woman complains she's oversensitive, she can't take a joke, she's making a mountain out of a molehill etc. It's manipulative and it's designed to let them carry on behaving badly. When women agree with them it just shows how deeply they've managed to embed their attitudes in our societies.
PT dismissed the "glamorous" claims and like me thinks the problems are the unglamorous claims that fall under the radar. Eg vulnerable people working for small organisations on dodgy contracts with a lack of corporate governance/accountability.
If Julia Brewer-Hartley was so offended Fallon placed his hand on her knee I'm surprised she seems keen on displaying her knees and her cleavage. Frankly she looks a mess. She looks unprofessional and carries too much weight to wear short skirts and low tops.
-
Meow! Let the woman with the perfect figure and the perfect outfit for every occasion cast her stone!
People employed by British MP's work in a very small workplace; an MP will usually have a staff of around four. They are employed by the MP, not by Parliament or the MP's party. It's not a career for life, obviously, if the MP loses their seat the staff are likely to lose their jobs. If the MP isn't satisfied with them another MP is unlikely to employ them either. Pretty precarious it seems to me.
We seem to have little common ground so I will finish by making my opinion very plain. My view is that every woman should be treated with respect no matter what size she is or what clothes she chooses to wear. As should every man. No-one should be treated in a way which makes them feel uncomfortable or victimised by anyone. When they are treated in that way the person who did it should be reprimanded.
-
It took me a while to find it but here it is:
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/29th-june-1996/10/another-voice
MATTHEW PARRIS
Stephen Glover is surely wrong (Politics, 22 June). The public interest claimed by the Daily Mail for its research into the pri- vate life of Polly Toynbee is not that the paper aimed to expose any significant inconsistency between what she preached and what she practised. It was the signifi- cant consistency they wanted to expose. In her writing she urges us not to feel shackled by the bonds of marriage, and in her own life (we learn) she has been conducting an affair with a married man*. No conflict here.
But it is not really Polly Toynbee who is my focus. The Mail's charge is the charge the press have made against MPs who use a public platform to defend the interests of causes, corporations, friends or relations in whose welfare they have an undeclared pri- vate interest. It is the indictment we make of the MP who speaks in the House in sup- port of the dignity and interests of the accountancy profession and fails to declare that he has a second job as an accountant. The indictment against Ms Toynbee was of this type: that of using her writing and broadcasting to legitimise lifestyles like her own. She should have declared her interest (it is argued), allowing her audience, should they so decide, to take her opinions with a pinch a salt.
The late Keith Waterhouse frequently referred to her as Polyanna.
* as I recall the mans wife complained about Polyanna using her column as a vehicle to criticise her(the wife).
-
Meow! Let the woman with the perfect figure and the perfect outfit for every occasion cast her stone!
People employed by British MP's work in a very small workplace; an MP will usually have a staff of around four. They are employed by the MP, not by Parliament or the MP's party. It's not a career for life, obviously, if the MP loses their seat the staff are likely to lose their jobs. If the MP isn't satisfied with them another MP is unlikely to employ them either. Pretty precarious it seems to me.
We seem to have little common ground so I will finish by making my opinion very plain. My view is that every woman should be treated with respect no matter what size she is or what clothes she chooses to wear. As should every man. No-one should be treated in a way which makes them feel uncomfortable or victimised by anyone. When they are treated in that way the person who did it should be reprimanded.
You started up a thread entitled:
"The latest political scandal; A wirchhunt or a necessary exposé?"
But it seems your mind was already made up and you were expecting others to share your views telling me you have little common ground with me so the debate is over!
To be honest I find you all over the place with this and I've no real idea what your argument is. I thought we were debating claims made by Brewer-Hartley and Leadsom and whether they justified Fallon's resignation. IMO no the claims don't justify the resignation. Given the recent furore in the Navy about inappropriate relationships amongst serving officers on ships I think Fallon as head of defence thought it was the appropriate thing to do.
I've asked several female friends for their views and they've all said words to the effect it will put an end to banter and harmless flirting 8(8-)).
I don't know much about the machinations of those employed by MP's but it doesn't seem anymore precarious to me than those employed in the so-called GIG economy?
You say every woman should be treated with respect but I don't understand why you're singling out women and excluding men/transgendered people? As far as I'm concerned everyone deserves to be treated with respect in and out of the workplace but people need to take some responsibility and act appropriately which includes dressing appropriately for the occasion. Dress sends out a message. If a woman with a huge bust like Brewer-Hartley chooses to wear a very low neckline exposing a significant amount of breast and cleavage then it's going to distract some from her messages as a journalist/broadcaster. It's common sense surely? She seems to go out of her way to dress provocatively/sexually aggressive which is up to her when she's off duty but when she's on duty/primetime tv I would suggest most don't want to see some middle-aged woman's jugs filling their screen!
-
It took me a while to find it but here it is:
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/29th-june-1996/10/another-voice
MATTHEW PARRIS
Stephen Glover is surely wrong (Politics, 22 June). The public interest claimed by the Daily Mail for its research into the pri- vate life of Polly Toynbee is not that the paper aimed to expose any significant inconsistency between what she preached and what she practised. It was the signifi- cant consistency they wanted to expose. In her writing she urges us not to feel shackled by the bonds of marriage, and in her own life (we learn) she has been conducting an affair with a married man*. No conflict here.
But it is not really Polly Toynbee who is my focus. The Mail's charge is the charge the press have made against MPs who use a public platform to defend the interests of causes, corporations, friends or relations in whose welfare they have an undeclared pri- vate interest. It is the indictment we make of the MP who speaks in the House in sup- port of the dignity and interests of the accountancy profession and fails to declare that he has a second job as an accountant. The indictment against Ms Toynbee was of this type: that of using her writing and broadcasting to legitimise lifestyles like her own. She should have declared her interest (it is argued), allowing her audience, should they so decide, to take her opinions with a pinch a salt.
The late Keith Waterhouse frequently referred to her as Polyanna.
* as I recall the mans wife complained about Polyanna using her column as a vehicle to criticise her(the wife).
Richard Littlejohn from the DM refers to her as pole-dancing Polly!
I think the guy she was supposedly having an affair with, David Walker, is now her husband. He also works for the Guardian so I'm assuming that's where they met. If G-unit had her way this would probably never have happened as surely all relationships start with subtle flirting? If one or other had misread the situation we could be reading claims of inappropriate behaviour at the most PC place in the land!
-
I stop debating when it's clear that the person I'm debating with doesn't understand my points. Some of which
I thought were quite clear;
I was annoyed when a resigning government minister suggested that laying his uninvited hands on a woman would have been acceptable 5 or 10 years ago. it was never acceptable in my opinion.
I agree that everyone should be treated respectfully and that includes women of all shapes and sizes regardless of how they choose to dress. Are men wearing kilts inviting unwanted touching? Not in my opinion.
Harmless flirting does not, in my opinion, include laying uninvited hands on anyone. Neither does it include sending employees into sex shops to buy sex toys for their employer.
-
I stop debating when it's clear that the person I'm debating with doesn't understand my points. Some of which
I thought were quite clear;
I was annoyed when a resigning government minister suggested that laying his uninvited hands on a woman would have been acceptable 5 or 10 years ago. it was never acceptable in my opinion.
I agree that everyone should be treated respectfully and that includes women of all shapes and sizes regardless of how they choose to dress. Are men wearing kilts inviting unwanted touching? Not in my opinion.
Harmless flirting does not, in my opinion, include laying uninvited hands on anyone. Neither does it include sending employees into sex shops to buy sex toys for their employer.
As someone who has several times suffered the wandering hands and also the rubbing of himself against me, i am glad to agree with you. In those days I never said a word but suffered indignities silently.
Now I have the confidence, I would confront the man and publicly denounce him. Hopefully shame him into never doing it again to another young woman
I still shed a tear occasionally, when I think of the effect that the bullying of one man had on me. It may have been sexist rather than sexual, but it profoundly upset me. I was about 19 at the time.
-
As someone who has several times suffered the wandering hands and also the rubbing of himself against me, i am glad to agree with you. In those days I never said a word but suffered indignities silently.
Now I have the confidence, I would confront the man and publicly denounce him. Hopefully shame him into never doing it again to another young woman
I still shed a tear occasionally, when I think of the effect that the bullying of one man had on me. It may have been sexist rather than sexual, but it profoundly upset me. I was about 19 at the time.
Women's feelings were of no consequence in those days. Men had the power to do as they pleased and ignore or ridicule their victims if they complained. It's high time these men who live in the past caught up and realised times have changed. Some women need to grasp that also, in my opinion, rather than making excuses for these bullying leches.
-
I stop debating when it's clear that the person I'm debating with doesn't understand my points. Some of which
I thought were quite clear;
I was annoyed when a resigning government minister suggested that laying his uninvited hands on a woman would have been acceptable 5 or 10 years ago. it was never acceptable in my opinion.
I agree that everyone should be treated respectfully and that includes women of all shapes and sizes regardless of how they choose to dress. Are men wearing kilts inviting unwanted touching? Not in my opinion.
Harmless flirting does not, in my opinion, include laying uninvited hands on anyone. Neither does it include sending employees into sex shops to buy sex toys for their employer.
I think you became frustrated because I don't share your views.
You're deviating from the facts; Fallon put a hand not "hands" on Brewer-Hartley's knee.
Brewer-Hartley is an Oxford educated polictical journalist. Her purpose in life to enlighten us. When presenting in a professional capacity why the need to wear sexually provocative clothing? What's wrong with a little decorum? The comparison between Brewer-Hartley and other female presenters is here for all to see:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8589.msg430180#msg430180
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5189385/One-ten-women-told-change-clothes-boss.html
Your analogy of a man wearing a kilt isn't imo a good one on the assumption the length is normal and conceals the man's tackle. Suppose the kilt was short enought that part of his tackle was on display? That's the comparison you need to to make with Brewer-Hartley's plunging neckline.
How do you know Brewer-Hartley didn't go to the Tory bash 'dressed to kill' positioning her ample bosom in Fallon's face knowing the old fool would be putty in her hands and ripe for some hot Westminster gos.!?
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/political-journalist-melissa-kite-says-13877390
-
As someone who has several times suffered the wandering hands and also the rubbing of himself against me, i am glad to agree with you. In those days I never said a word but suffered indignities silently.
Now I have the confidence, I would confront the man and publicly denounce him. Hopefully shame him into never doing it again to another young woman
I still shed a tear occasionally, when I think of the effect that the bullying of one man had on me. It may have been sexist rather than sexual, but it profoundly upset me. I was about 19 at the time.
Sorry to hear this Sadie.
From what you've said it seems your experience was very different to that of Brewer_Hartley in that Brewer-Hartley simply had a hand placed on her knee during a Tory dinner party.
-
Women's feelings were of no consequence in those days. Men had the power to do as they pleased and ignore or ridicule their victims if they complained. It's high time these men who live in the past caught up and realised times have changed. Some women need to grasp that also, in my opinion, rather than making excuses for these bullying leches.
For every unpleasant man now or yesteryear there was/is probably an unpleasant woman. A case in point is probably that of Liam Allan.
-
I think you became frustrated because I don't share your views.
You're deviating from the facts; Fallon put a hand not "hands" on Brewer-Hartley's knee.
Brewer-Hartley is an Oxford educated polictical journalist. Her purpose in life to enlighten us. When presenting in a professional capacity why the need to wear sexually provocative clothing? What's wrong with a little decorum? The comparison between Brewer-Hartley and other female presenters is here for all to see:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8589.msg430180#msg430180
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5189385/One-ten-women-told-change-clothes-boss.html
Your analogy of a man wearing a kilt isn't imo a good one on the assumption the length is normal and conceals the man's tackle. Suppose the kilt was short enought that part of his tackle was on display? That's the comparison you need to to make with Brewer-Hartley's plunging neckline.
How do you know Brewer-Hartley didn't go to the Tory bash 'dressed to kill' positioning her ample bosom in Fallon's face knowing the old fool would be putty in her hands and ripe for some hot Westminster gos.!?
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/political-journalist-melissa-kite-says-13877390
No, I just accept I'm wasting my time discussing this issue with someone whose attitudes and understanding are so outdated.
Suggesting that women's choice of clothes makes them fair game is a very old-fashioned idea.
-
No, I just accept I'm wasting my time discussing this issue with someone whose attitudes and understanding are so outdated.
Suggesting that women's choice of clothes makes them fair game is a very old-fashioned idea.
I disagree that all cases can be lumped together eg if a man places a friendly arm around a woman's shoulder years later the woman can accuse the man of over-stepping the mark.
I also disagree that women aren't responsible to some degree for how they are treated by others by their behaviour which includes dressing appropriately for the occasion.
You may recall judge Pickle's comments:
His views on women made him a target for feminists, but he was unapologetic: “I’ve never said that a woman who goes about bra-less or dressed in a certain manner deserves to be raped; what I have said is that if a woman dresses in a particular way and behaves in a particular manner she may be misunderstood as to her availability sexually.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/8220386/His-Honour-James-Pickles.html
It's common sense surely? Would you leave valuables on display in your car and/or leave it unlocked?
I'm not suggesting women should be hidden away behind burkas to protect themselves from 'uncontrollable' male lust!
Women can look attractive without being overtly sexual.
-
I disagree that all cases can be lumped together eg if a man places a friendly arm around a woman's shoulder years later the woman can accuse the man of over-stepping the mark.
I also disagree that women aren't responsible to some degree for how they are treated by others by their behaviour which includes dressing appropriately for the occasion.
You may recall judge Pickle's comments:
His views on women made him a target for feminists, but he was unapologetic: “I’ve never said that a woman who goes about bra-less or dressed in a certain manner deserves to be raped; what I have said is that if a woman dresses in a particular way and behaves in a particular manner she may be misunderstood as to her availability sexually.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/law-obituaries/8220386/His-Honour-James-Pickles.html
It's common sense surely? Would you leave valuables on display in your car and/or leave it unlocked?
I'm not suggesting women should be hidden away behind burkas to protect themselves from 'uncontrollable' male lust!
Women can look attractive without being overtly sexual.
Regardless of the outdated opinions espoused by you, Judge Pickles and the gropers the reality is that men making assumptions about women run the risk of being disgraced and losing their jobs.
-
Regardless of the outdated opinions espoused by you, Judge Pickles and the gropers the reality is that men making assumptions about women run the risk of being disgraced and losing their jobs.
G-Unit 'meet the women worried about #metoo'
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/meet-the-women-worried-about-metoo/20639#.Wj0Q3DfLjIU
Ironically one of the women happens to be none other than Julia Brewer-Hartley:
Julia Hartley-Brewer says…
The #MeToo campaign is very worrying and will achieve the opposite of what it pretends to want. The hashtag claims to be about empowering women to speak out when actually it is turning women into perpetual victims.
Women who put up with sexual harassment and keep quiet about it for years, protecting the perpetrators, are hailed as heroines and strong, powerful feminists. Yet, bizarrely, women who speak out and deal with sexual harassment forcefully at the time, and then happily move on with their lives as I and millions of other women have done over the years, are derided as ‘victim-blamers’ or even ‘rape apologists’. It’s almost as if a woman is only ‘the right kind of woman’ if she is willing to play the victim.
This is not what feminism was supposed to be about. It was supposed to be about empowering women, not infantilising them. Any woman can now point the finger at any man and make any claim she wants about something that may – or may not – have happened to her 10 or 20 years ago. That allegation, whether there is any evidence to back it up or not, is enough to end a man’s reputation, his career or even his life. We are seeing an end to the principles of natural justice, innocence until proven guilty and fair trials.
Make no mistake – this is a witch-hunt, and to hell with any innocent men who accidentally get caught in the net of the #MeToo outrage.
Julia is a journalist, broadcaster and host at talkRADIO.
How about this from Lionel Shriver:
I am concerned that we are throwing knee-touching into the same basket as rape, which does a grievous disservice to mere knee-touchers and rape victims both. I am concerned that we are increasingly wont to confuse genuine abuse of power in the workplace with often distant memories of men who have made failed – ‘unwanted’ – passes. In the complicated dance of courtship, someone has to make a move, and the way one conventionally discovers if one’s attraction is returned is to brave some gentle physical contact and perhaps accept rebuff. Were I still a young woman looking for a partner, I would not wish to live in world where a man had to secure a countersigned contract in triplicate before he kissed me.
I am concerned that we are casting women as irremediably scarred by even minor, casual advances, and as incapable of competently and sensitively handling the commonplace instances in which men are drawn to them sexually and the feeling doesn’t happen to be mutual.
I am concerned that sex itself seems increasingly to be seen as dirty, and as a violation, a form of assault, so that we’re repackaging an old prudery in progressive wrapping paper. I am concerned that we are well on our way to demonising, if not criminalising, all male desire.
Turbocharged by social media, #MeToo may have gone too far. Rather than bringing the sexes together with improved mutual understanding, we are in danger of driving the sexes apart. If I were a man right now, I’d lock the door of my study with the intention of satisfying myself with internet porn for the indefinite future. Real women would not seem worth the risk of destroying my career. Is that what we want?
Lionel is an author, most recently of The Standing Chandelier, and winner of the Orange Prize for Fiction.
Merry Christmas G-Unit 8((()*/