Strange Witness Statements

[AnneGuedes]

 Are you now saying that Amaral did NOT think they had disposed of the dead body of their child - for which I presume a jail sentence would be imposed - and that all they had to fear was fine and that prison was never a possibility?

Crimes DO get 'pinned' on innocent people, miscarriages of justice DO happen.   Are you saying that because you have a written Constitution that has never happened in Portugal?    If so Portugal must be the only country in the world who can make that claim.

No jail for disposal of a body, but a fine and if you don't pay it, yes jail.
I never said that there were no miscarriages of justice in Portugal, but that in this particular case it was impossible : too many observers and too many authorities having involved themselves in the protection and pain of parents who had lost a child.

[Benice]

No jail for disposal of a body, but a fine and if you don't pay it, yes jail.
I never said that there were no miscarriages of justice in Portugal, but that in this particular case it was impossible : too many observers and too many authorities having involved themselves in the protection and pain of parents who had lost a child.

Sorry Anne, I find that impossible to believe.  If it is true then IMO there is something seriously wrong with some of Portugal's laws.

[AnneGuedes]

Sorry Anne, I find that impossible to believe.  If it is true then IMO there is something seriously wrong with some of Portugal's laws.

What's wrong, Benice ? This isn't a crime, but a misdemeanor.
In France, concealing or keeping the body of a person who died from an homicide or from the consequences of violence (if you're not the murderer) is punished with 2 years of jail or a fine of 30 000 euros.
Is there "something seriously wrong with some of France's laws" ?

Now a crime, a manslaughter :
A man smacked his lover in a passionate discussion, she fell on some hard piece of furniture and died. He loved her, but he did smack her. He got 8 years jail in Vilnius, was conditionally freed after 4. He's a famous musician, his lover was a famous actress.
Do you find it abnormal ?

[Benice]

What's wrong, Benice ? This isn't a crime, but a misdemeanor.
In France, concealing or keeping the body of a person who died from an homicide or from the consequences of violence (if you're not the murderer) is punished with 2 years of jail or a fine of 30 000 euros.
Is there "something seriously wrong with some of France's laws" ?

Now a crime, a manslaughter :
A man smacked his lover in a passionate discussion, she fell on some hard piece of furniture and died. He loved her, but he did smack her. He got 8 years jail in Vilnius, was conditionally freed after 4. He's a famous musician, his lover was a famous actress.
Do you find it abnormal ?

What has French law got to do with Portuguese law and what has your second para got to do with the McCann case?

I note in both cases prison sentences are the penalty.   Surely this contradicts your claim that only a fine would have been imposed on the McCanns?

[AnneGuedes]

What has French law got to do with Portuguese law and what has your second para got to do with the McCann case?

I note in both cases prison sentences are the penalty.   Surely this contradicts your claim that only a fine would have been imposed on the McCanns?

You found impossible to believe that disposal of a body would cost a fine or 3 years jail (if you don't want to pay) and claimed "there is something seriously wrong with some of Portugal's laws."
In France it's less than in Portugal, 2 years jail if you don't want to pay.

How is it in the UK ? Do you know ?

[Benice]

You found impossible to believe that disposal of a body would cost a fine or 3 years jail (if you don't want to pay) and claimed "there is something seriously wrong with some of Portugal's laws."
In France it's less than in Portugal, 2 years jail if you don't want to pay.

How is it in the UK ? Do you know ?

Don't misquote me Anne.  It was you who said only a fine would be levied.    I said IF THAT WAS TRUE there was something seriously wrong with Portugal's laws.  The whole point of your original post was that you were disputing what Kate said about being in prison.  You claimed the idea of prison was ''ridiculous ''and only a fine would be imposed.     

[AnneGuedes]

Don't misquote me Anne.  It was you who said only a fine would be levied.    I said IF THAT WAS TRUE there was something seriously wrong with Portugal's laws.  The whole point of your original post was that you were disputing what Kate said about being in prison.  You claimed the idea of prison was ''ridiculous ''and only a fine would be imposed.     

Benice, you don't seem to understand that it is fine OR jail. Up to who is condemned.
As "it is true", in Portugal and in France, why again did you say "there is something seriously wrong etc." ?
And do you know how it is in the UK ?

[Cariad]

Offences Concerning the Coroner
Obstructing a Coroner - Preventing the Burial of a Body
Any disposal of a corpse with intent to obstruct or prevent a coroner's inquest, when there is a duty to hold one, is an offence. The offence is a common law offence, triable only on indictment and carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment and/or a fine.

The offence of preventing the burial of a body (indictable only, unlimited imprisonment) is an alternative charge. Proof of this offence does not require proof of the specific intent required for obstructing a coroner.

The offences of obstructing a coroner and preventing the burial of a body may arise for example, when a person decides to conceal the innocent and unexpected death of a relative or friend or prevent his burial. Such cases inevitably raise sensitive public interest factors which must be carefully considered.

When the evidence supports a charge of involuntary manslaughter, it may be necessary to add a charge of obstructing a coroner or preventing a burial if the disposal of the body is more serious than the unlawful act which caused the death.

Obstructing a coroner may also amount to an offence of perverting the course of justice. Regard must be had to the factors outlined in General Charging Practice, above in this guidance and Charging Practice for Public Justice Offences, above in this guidance, which help to identify conduct too serious to charge as obstructing a coroner, when consideration should be given to a charge of perverting the course of justice.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/public_justice_offences_incorporating_the_charging_standard/#a37

It seems as though there is massive scope for sentencing in the UK. It carries the maximum penalty of life imprisonment and or a fine!

[AnneGuedes]

Offences Concerning the Coroner
Obstructing a Coroner - Preventing the Burial of a Body
Any disposal of a corpse with intent to obstruct or prevent a coroner's inquest, when there is a duty to hold one, is an offence. The offence is a common law offence, triable only on indictment and carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment and/or a fine.

The offence of preventing the burial of a body (indictable only, unlimited imprisonment) is an alternative charge. Proof of this offence does not require proof of the specific intent required for obstructing a coroner.

The offences of obstructing a coroner and preventing the burial of a body may arise for example, when a person decides to conceal the innocent and unexpected death of a relative or friend or prevent his burial. Such cases inevitably raise sensitive public interest factors which must be carefully considered.

When the evidence supports a charge of involuntary manslaughter, it may be necessary to add a charge of obstructing a coroner or preventing a burial if the disposal of the body is more serious than the unlawful act which caused the death.

Obstructing a coroner may also amount to an offence of perverting the course of justice. Regard must be had to the factors outlined in General Charging Practice, above in this guidance and Charging Practice for Public Justice Offences, above in this guidance, which help to identify conduct too serious to charge as obstructing a coroner, when consideration should be given to a charge of perverting the course of justice.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/public_justice_offences_incorporating_the_charging_standard/#a37

It seems as though there is massive scope for sentencing in the UK. It carries the maximum penalty of life imprisonment and or a fine!

Thank you for that, Cariad !
Many modalities have to be contemplated, but it's an offence, not a crime. This sort of Lord who lived for months with the cadaver of his wife in his huge mansion wasn't really perverting the course of justice nor obstructing the coroner's inquest, it was a natural death he couldn't accept.
In many cases the guilty one is not a danger for society, so there's no reason to put him/her in jail.
Imagine Madeleine was killed by a driver who just didn't see her because it was dark and she was small. It's an accident, but the man is horrified and in a denying process buries the body. He doesn't intend to pervert the course of justice, he just refuses reality. But the course of justice has been perverted all the same..

[Cariad]

Thank you for that, Cariad !
Many modalities have to be contemplated, but it's an offence, not a crime. This sort of Lord who lived for months with the cadaver of his wife in his huge mansion wasn't really perverting the course of justice nor obstructing the coroner's inquest, it was a natural death he couldn't accept.
In many cases the guilty one is not a danger for society, so there's no reason to put him/her in jail.
Imagine Madeleine was killed by a driver who just didn't see her because it was dark and she was small. It's an accident, but the man is horrified and in a denying process buries the body. He doesn't intend to pervert the course of justice, he just refuses reality. But the course of justice has been perverted all the same..

I'd forgotten about that case! He received two suspended sentences, so no prison time at all.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/dec/14/eva-rausing-died-cocaine-abuse

[AnneGuedes]

I'd forgotten about that case! He received two suspended sentences, so no prison time at all.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/dec/14/eva-rausing-died-cocaine-abuse

And no fine. It's not so rare, I believe, when two human beings zone out and one's sudden death leaves the other like mutilated.

[VIXTE]

Imagine Madeleine was killed by a driver who just didn't see her because it was dark and she was small. It's an accident, but the man is horrified and in a denying process buries the body. He doesn't intend to pervert the course of justice, he just refuses reality. But the course of justice has been perverted all the same..

Strange you mention this option. One of my early theories was exactly this.

[pathfinder73]

p. 242. "A witness claimed to have seen Gerry and me carrying a big black bag and acting suspiciously. This was absolute nonsense, but 'evidence' of this kind came down to one person's word against another."

Who was this witness?

[Aiofe]

Thank you for that, Cariad !
Many modalities have to be contemplated, but it's an offence, not a crime. This sort of Lord who lived for months with the cadaver of his wife in his huge mansion wasn't really perverting the course of justice nor obstructing the coroner's inquest, it was a natural death he couldn't accept.
In many cases the guilty one is not a danger for society, so there's no reason to put him/her in jail.
Imagine Madeleine was killed by a driver who just didn't see her because it was dark and she was small. It's an accident, but the man is horrified and in a denying process buries the body. He doesn't intend to pervert the course of justice, he just refuses reality. But the course of justice has been perverted all the same..

An offence is by definition a crime.

[Aiofe]

What's wrong, Benice ? This isn't a crime, but a misdemeanor.
In France, concealing or keeping the body of a person who died from an homicide or from the consequences of violence (if you're not the murderer) is punished with 2 years of jail or a fine of 30 000 euros.
Is there "something seriously wrong with some of France's laws" ?

Now a crime, a manslaughter :
A man smacked his lover in a passionate discussion, she fell on some hard piece of furniture and died. He loved her, but he did smack her. He got 8 years jail in Vilnius, was conditionally freed after 4. He's a famous musician, his lover was a famous actress.
Do you find it abnormal ?

Crimes are misdemeanors and vice versa. There is no misdemeanor/felony distinction in English law as clear as US law and possibly European law allows.