The evening prior to the shootings

[Admin]

On 4 August 1985, three days before the murders, Sheila took the boys to spend a week at the Bamber farm. The farm's housekeeper saw Sheila that day but noticed nothing unusual about her, she was also observed the following day with her children by two farm workers, Julie and Leonard Foakes, who said she appeared quite herself and happy.

It seems that an argument developed at the farm on the evening prior to the murders. The farm secretary, Barbara Wilson, stated in evidence that she had telephoned the farmhouse at 9.30 pm that evening and spoke to Nevill. She said he was short with her and this had left her with the impression that she had interrupted an argument. Pamela Boutflour, June Bamber's sister, also telephoned the house that evening at about 10 pm. She spoke to Sheila, who she said was quiet, then to June, who seemed normal.

It has been suggested that Nevill and June had made a suggestion to Sheila that evening which would effectively see her return home from London to the cottage at Goldhanger which was then occupied by Jeremy. Was Jeremy present at that discussion, was this the straw that broke the camels back?

The rest as they say is history.

[starryian]

Yes Admin,
That would make sense as to the reason behind the argument. Bamber states that on the evening before the murders, Nevil and June held a 'Council or War' with Sheila over the issues of the adoption of the twins.
'They raised the issue of fostering the twins out to a local family' and ' This is what probably set her off'
Bamber later stated.
I strongly suspect that this to be nothing but a complete fabrication. No such conversation ever took place. Bamber dreamt up this scenario in order to put forward a reason why Sheila went on the supposed rampage.
Colin Caffell also later stated that this was utter nonsense.' There was no question of the boys ever being adopted or fostered out' It was merely a plausible excuse planted in the minds of police by the cunning Bamber in order to add weight to the notion that Sheila was responsible for the killings.
I believe that Bamber had argued with his parents over the issue of him giving up his cottage for Sheila and the boys. This obviously incensed the selfish, arrogant Bamber into deciding that 'tonight's the night'
Julie Mugford later testified that Bamber phoned her that evening and claimed he was 'pissed off' and 'It is now or never' and 'Tonight's the night'
It would certainly appear that Bamber argued with his parents - Mugford had no knowledge of the argument, so it would add weight to her statement concerning Bamber's frame of mind on that fateful evening.
I also believe Bamber had been planning the murders for months and was looking for an appropriate time, but it had to fulfil certain criteria - It had to be when all beneficiaries of Nevil and June's will were all together - including the twins. He had to be in the right frame of mind.
I also think that the timing of the murders is crucial here. Bamber was, by everyone's who knew him, an incredibly lazy, parasitic loafer. The mere thought of having to undertake yet more, grueling 12 hour days to gather in the harvest was unbearable to him (He had moaned incessantly to Mugford about how he was being'used' by his parents as 'slave labour'). Therefore the timing was perfect. Everything was in place. The family were all there, he had been sitting on the tractor all that day thinking of killing his parents. He has a serious argument that evening (probably exacerbated by his frame of mind) The scene was now set for his heinous plan.
The fatal mistakes he made in the execution of this vile plan were to see him rightly locked up for the rest of his unnatural life.

[puglove]

Good morning, Ian. Another excellent post.

[abs]

Colin Caffell also later stated that this was utter nonsense.' There was no question of the boys ever being adopted or fostered out'

Nicholas and Daniel had been fostered out part-time for a period of time. So to state that there had been no question of the boys ever being fostered out, is not 100% correct.

[Admin]

Yes Admin,
That would make sense as to the reason behind the argument. Bamber states that on the evening before the murders, Nevil and June held a 'Council or War' with Sheila over the issues of the adoption of the twins.
'They raised the issue of fostering the twins out to a local family' and ' This is what probably set her off'
Bamber later stated.
I strongly suspect that this to be nothing but a complete fabrication. No such conversation ever took place. Bamber dreamt up this scenario in order to put forward a reason why Sheila went on the supposed rampage.
Colin Caffell also later stated that this was utter nonsense.' There was no question of the boys ever being adopted or fostered out' It was merely a plausible excuse planted in the minds of police by the cunning Bamber in order to add weight to the notion that Sheila was responsible for the killings.
I believe that Bamber had argued with his parents over the issue of him giving up his cottage for Sheila and the boys. This obviously incensed the selfish, arrogant Bamber into deciding that 'tonight's the night'
Julie Mugford later testified that Bamber phoned her that evening and claimed he was 'pissed off' and 'It is now or never' and 'Tonight's the night'
It would certainly appear that Bamber argued with his parents - Mugford had no knowledge of the argument, so it would add weight to her statement concerning Bamber's frame of mind on that fateful evening.
I also believe Bamber had been planning the murders for months and was looking for an appropriate time, but it had to fulfil certain criteria - It had to be when all beneficiaries of Nevil and June's will were all together - including the twins. He had to be in the right frame of mind.
I also think that the timing of the murders is crucial here. Bamber was, by everyone's who knew him, an incredibly lazy, parasitic loafer. The mere thought of having to undertake yet more, grueling 12 hour days to gather in the harvest was unbearable to him (He had moaned incessantly to Mugford about how he was being'used' by his parents as 'slave labour'). Therefore the timing was perfect. Everything was in place. The family were all there, he had been sitting on the tractor all that day thinking of killing his parents. He has a serious argument that evening (probably exacerbated by his frame of mind) The scene was now set for his heinous plan.
The fatal mistakes he made in the execution of this vile plan were to see him rightly locked up for the rest of his unnatural life.

Ian, the scenario you depict has been stated before but it does no harm for new readers to see it all over again.  We agree that the argument with Sheila was most probably invented, Pamela had spoken to Sheila and June on the phone the previous evening just hours before the killings and when this so-called argument was supposed to have been taking place. Pamela reported that Sheila was quiet and subdued, not really the sort of reaction you would get from someone who was in a heated row about losing her little boys.

We believe as you correctly point out that Jeremy was confronted with the thought of losing his cottage to Sheila and the boys or at least having to share it with them.  This would have got Sheila and the boys back home to be near to the farm and it would also have had some effect on Jeremy's womanising which June detested so much.  As you state Ian, Jeremy probably came off worst in the argument and went off home to have a grumble with Julie over the phone.

Look at it another way, just assume for a minute that the murderer was a stranger who had a gripe against Nevill or Jeremy.  What are the chances of such a stranger picking the very night when Sheila and the twins just happened to be there?  The whole scenario is preposterous.

Being fostered is one thing, being adopted is a completely different proposition.  It is quite clear that Nevill and June intended that Sheila and the boys return home to the area where they could keep an eye on them all.  Jeremy however had other plans!!

[starryian]

That is not correct. They were not fostered out even part time. You may be confusing this with babysitting by a couple well known to the Bamber's. Legal fostering is an entirely different matter Abs.

[Admin]

That is not correct. They were not fostered out even part time. You may be confusing this with babysitting by a couple well known to the Bamber's. Legal fostering is an entirely different matter Abs.

Do we know at what stage Colin took over responsibility for the boys?

[starryian]

Good morning, Ian. Another excellent post.

Thank you Shona.

[Harvey]

You make some great points Ian.  Have you seen the video library showing Jeremy at the funeral along with other ITN footage of the trial etc?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=90.0

[starryian]

Yes Admin,
That would make sense as to the reason behind the argument. Bamber states that on the evening before the murders, Nevil and June held a 'Council or War' with Sheila over the issues of the adoption of the twins.
'They raised the issue of fostering the twins out to a local family' and ' This is what probably set her off'
Bamber later stated.
I strongly suspect that this to be nothing but a complete fabrication. No such conversation ever took place. Bamber dreamt up this scenario in order to put forward a reason why Sheila went on the supposed rampage.
Colin Caffell also later stated that this was utter nonsense.' There was no question of the boys ever being adopted or fostered out' It was merely a plausible excuse planted in the minds of police by the cunning Bamber in order to add weight to the notion that Sheila was responsible for the killings.
I believe that Bamber had argued with his parents over the issue of him giving up his cottage for Sheila and the boys. This obviously incensed the selfish, arrogant Bamber into deciding that 'tonight's the night'
Julie Mugford later testified that Bamber phoned her that evening and claimed he was 'pissed off' and 'It is now or never' and 'Tonight's the night'
It would certainly appear that Bamber argued with his parents - Mugford had no knowledge of the argument, so it would add weight to her statement concerning Bamber's frame of mind on that fateful evening.
I also believe Bamber had been planning the murders for months and was looking for an appropriate time, but it had to fulfil certain criteria - It had to be when all beneficiaries of Nevil and June's will were all together - including the twins. He had to be in the right frame of mind.
I also think that the timing of the murders is crucial here. Bamber was, by everyone's who knew him, an incredibly lazy, parasitic loafer. The mere thought of having to undertake yet more, grueling 12 hour days to gather in the harvest was unbearable to him (He had moaned incessantly to Mugford about how he was being'used' by his parents as 'slave labour'). Therefore the timing was perfect. Everything was in place. The family were all there, he had been sitting on the tractor all that day thinking of killing his parents. He has a serious argument that evening (probably exacerbated by his frame of mind) The scene was now set for his heinous plan.
The fatal mistakes he made in the execution of this vile plan were to see him rightly locked up for the rest of his unnatural life.

Ian, the scenario you depict has been stated before but it does no harm for new readers to see it all over again.  We agree that the argument with Sheila was most probably invented, Pamela had spoken to Sheila and June on the phone the previous evening just hours before the killings and when this so-called argument was supposed to have been taking place. Pamela reported that Sheila was quiet and subdued, not really the sort of reaction you would get from someone who was in a heated row about losing her little boys.

We believe as you correctly point out that Jeremy was confronted with the thought of losing his cottage to Sheila and the boys or at least having to share it with them.  This would have got Sheila and the boys back home to be near to the farm and it would also have had some effect on Jeremy's womanising which June detested so much.  As you state Ian, Jeremy probably came off worst in the argument and went off home to have a grumble with Julie over the phone.

Look at it another way, just assume for a minute that the murderer was a stranger who had a gripe against Nevill or Jeremy.  What are the chances of such a stranger picking the very night when Sheila and the twins just happened to be there?  The whole scenario is preposterous.

Being fostered is one thing, being adopted is a completely different proposition.  It is quite clear that Nevill and June intended that Sheila and the boys return home to the area where they could keep an eye on them all.  Jeremy however had other plans!!

An excellent post Admin. The notion that anyone else commited these heinous murders is preposterous. Once the whole picture - and not obscured and spread around the way Bamber's cronies would like people to be confused by it to muddy the waters - is looked at and judged, there can only be one culprit, to deny this one would have to completely ignore evidence, both physical and circumstantial and of course the notion that one too many coincidences, ceases to be a coincidence.
I have listened with mounting dismay at the way his suporters argue their case. 'There is no proof' The police did it' 'he is a such a nice man he simply could not have killed his family (yes  unbelievably someone actually defended this psychopathic wastrel by using this exact same argument) 'The relatives conspired to fit him up' 'It was someone else'
I just cannot understand their logic. They must have literally shut their eyes and easr to anything that doesnt jibe with that particular train of thought, or I suspect that they have a different agenda to the one we imagine.
They are allowed to continue because Bamber will never hold his hands up and come clean.

[Admin]

An excellent post Admin. The notion that anyone else commited these heinous murders is preposterous. Once the whole picture - and not obscured and spread around the way Bamber's cronies would like people to be confused by it to muddy the waters - is looked at and judged, there can only be one culprit, to deny this one would have to completely ignore evidence, both physical and circumstantial and of course the notion that one too many coincidences, ceases to be a coincidence.
I have listened with mounting dismay at the way his suporters argue their case. 'There is no proof' The police did it' 'he is a such a nice man he simply could not have killed his family (yes  unbelievably someone actually defended this psychopathic wastrel by using this exact same argument) 'The relatives conspired to fit him up' 'It was someone else'
I just cannot understand their logic. They must have literally shut their eyes and easr to anything that doesnt jibe with that particular train of thought, or I suspect that they have a different agenda to the one we imagine.
They are allowed to continue because Bamber will never hold his hands up and come clean.

Why do you think they use a 26 year old photograph of him?   

[abs]

That is not correct. They were not fostered out even part time. You may be confusing this with babysitting by a couple well known to the Bamber's. Legal fostering is an entirely different matter Abs.

This couple had the boys quite a lot, and it seemed to have worked well for all. It is not impossible that a new part-time "relief-family" could have been discussed - actually likely in my opinion.

[Admin]

That is not correct. They were not fostered out even part time. You may be confusing this with babysitting by a couple well known to the Bamber's. Legal fostering is an entirely different matter Abs.

This couple had the boys quite a lot, and it seemed to have worked well for all. It is not impossible that a new part-time "relief-family" could have been discussed - actually likely in my opinion.

More likely that Nevill and June wanted to have them back under their wing sort of speak.

[ActualMat]

Yes Admin,
That would make sense as to the reason behind the argument. Bamber states that on the evening before the murders, Nevil and June held a 'Council or War' with Sheila over the issues of the adoption of the twins.
'They raised the issue of fostering the twins out to a local family' and ' This is what probably set her off'
Bamber later stated.
I strongly suspect that this to be nothing but a complete fabrication. No such conversation ever took place. Bamber dreamt up this scenario in order to put forward a reason why Sheila went on the supposed rampage.
Colin Caffell also later stated that this was utter nonsense.' There was no question of the boys ever being adopted or fostered out' It was merely a plausible excuse planted in the minds of police by the cunning Bamber in order to add weight to the notion that Sheila was responsible for the killings.
I believe that Bamber had argued with his parents over the issue of him giving up his cottage for Sheila and the boys. This obviously incensed the selfish, arrogant Bamber into deciding that 'tonight's the night'
Julie Mugford later testified that Bamber phoned her that evening and claimed he was 'pissed off' and 'It is now or never' and 'Tonight's the night'
It would certainly appear that Bamber argued with his parents - Mugford had no knowledge of the argument, so it would add weight to her statement concerning Bamber's frame of mind on that fateful evening.
I also believe Bamber had been planning the murders for months and was looking for an appropriate time, but it had to fulfil certain criteria - It had to be when all beneficiaries of Nevil and June's will were all together - including the twins. He had to be in the right frame of mind.
I also think that the timing of the murders is crucial here. Bamber was, by everyone's who knew him, an incredibly lazy, parasitic loafer. The mere thought of having to undertake yet more, grueling 12 hour days to gather in the harvest was unbearable to him (He had moaned incessantly to Mugford about how he was being'used' by his parents as 'slave labour'). Therefore the timing was perfect. Everything was in place. The family were all there, he had been sitting on the tractor all that day thinking of killing his parents. He has a serious argument that evening (probably exacerbated by his frame of mind) The scene was now set for his heinous plan.
The fatal mistakes he made in the execution of this vile plan were to see him rightly locked up for the rest of his unnatural life.

Brilliant post!

[starryian]

You make some great points Ian.  Have you seen the video library showing Jeremy at the funeral along with other ITN footage of the trial etc?

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=90.0

  Very interesting. Thank you kindly Harvey