Jeremy and Sheila - sentiments towards their immediate adoptive family

[Holly Goodhead]

He hated, resented and had complete contempt for June, not BW.

If JB hated, resented and had complete contempt for June how do you think SC felt about June:

Dr F's wit stats

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6191

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6193

"She said she felt as if she was caught up in a "coven of evil".  These feelings appeared to be involved with her relationship with her adoptive mother and her standards of good and evil".

"She did see that Mrs Bamber was a threat to her, and did not want to visit the BAMBERS at their farm in Essex.  Sheila felt that Mrs Bamber had been over-protective towards her and found it difficult to express warm feelings towards her".

"In hindsight I believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid, possibly involving her mother."

"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197

"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrew's Hospital, Northants.  I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed.  She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions.  This was around 1959.  She required ECT as an in-patient and made a full recover.

Farhad Emani (Freddie) wit stats:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=214

"She also had a deep dislike of her stepmother who apparently kept quoting religion at her.  This would upset Sheila and annoy her".

"She would not discuss all her problems, although whenever she visited her father, she would return even more depressed because of her stepmother.  Apparently the stepmother would preach to her about her boyfriends and how it was wrong that she should make love with them and Sheila should remember GOD.  She gradually detoriated until about three weeks before her first breakdown, Nicholas fell out of a taxi when she was returning from her parents.  She blamed herself for this because she was not concentrating on what the children were doing only on Mother's religious rantings".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=216

"Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend.  She was apologising to Tara for a Religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously".

"She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=218

"Had it just been her Stepmother who had been killed I could accept it as she disliked her intensely but to think she has killed her father and children is difficult to comprehend".

CC's Letter Intended For NB

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

"I will not allow her to f..k up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughters.  I am sorry to be so blunt but that is restrained compared to how I really feel".

Excerpt From Claire Powell's book

Sheila made it clear to her friends that her precarious state of her personal equilibrium stemmed largely from her peculiar relationship with June.  She was morbidly sensitive to any hint of disapproval from her mother.  It was a theme she reverted to constantly.  'She talked about her mother and her background' said Sonja.  'She told me that she and her mother didn't get on.  Sheila told me many times that she could not talk to her mother at all, that there was no form of communication between them.  She  said her mother was never happy with her or with what she did. 

[adam]

If JB hated, resented and had complete contempt for June how do you think SC felt about June:

Dr F's wit stats

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6191

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1199.0;attach=6193

"She said she felt as if she was caught up in a "coven of evil".  These feelings appeared to be involved with her relationship with her adoptive mother and her standards of good and evil".

"She did see that Mrs Bamber was a threat to her, and did not want to visit the BAMBERS at their farm in Essex.  Sheila felt that Mrs Bamber had been over-protective towards her and found it difficult to express warm feelings towards her".

"In hindsight I believe that Sheila would have relapsed into a state of psychosis, probably having a firmly held belief or delusion involving concepts of good and evil, and certainly paranoid, possibly involving her mother."

"Both June and Sheila suffered dillusional states of religion and Sheila's illness was influenced by her mother although I do not think the illnesses were caused by the same problem."

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1201.0;attach=6197

"I also treated Sheila's adopted mother, Mrs June BAMBER at St Andrew's Hospital, Northants.  I can say that June after suffering a long period of childlessness was examined and eventually an ovarian cyst was removed.  She made a decision to adopt and having done this suffered severe depressions.  This was around 1959.  She required ECT as an in-patient and made a full recover.

Farhad Emani (Freddie) wit stats:

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=214

"She also had a deep dislike of her stepmother who apparently kept quoting religion at her.  This would upset Sheila and annoy her".

"She would not discuss all her problems, although whenever she visited her father, she would return even more depressed because of her stepmother.  Apparently the stepmother would preach to her about her boyfriends and how it was wrong that she should make love with them and Sheila should remember GOD.  She gradually detoriated until about three weeks before her first breakdown, Nicholas fell out of a taxi when she was returning from her parents.  She blamed herself for this because she was not concentrating on what the children were doing only on Mother's religious rantings".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=216

"Whilst I was there she telephoned Tara, a close friend.  She was apologising to Tara for a Religious book that her step mother had dropped off at Tara's house a couple of days previously".

"She kept talking about the Devil and God, and stated that God was sitting opposite her and unlike what her stepmother said he in fact loved her".

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159.0;attach=218

"Had it just been her Stepmother who had been killed I could accept it as she disliked her intensely but to think she has killed her father and children is difficult to comprehend".

CC's Letter Intended For NB

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=7232

"I will not allow her to f..k up the minds of my children in the way I suspect she has your daughters.  I am sorry to be so blunt but that is restrained compared to how I really feel".

Excerpt From Claire Powell's book

Sheila made it clear to her friends that her precarious state of her personal equilibrium stemmed largely from her peculiar relationship with June.  She was morbidly sensitive to any hint of disapproval from her mother.  It was a theme she reverted to constantly.  'She talked about her mother and her background' said Sonja.  'She told me that she and her mother didn't get on.  Sheila told me many times that she could not talk to her mother at all, that there was no form of communication between them.  She  said her mother was never happy with her or with what she did.

Well there are dozens of sources confirming Jeremy's complete hatred,  contempt and resentment. Not just for June, but Neville & Sheila as well. You put too much emphasis on Sheila's illness.

Sheila had lived away from WHF for years. And had been financially supported by Neville & June for a long period. Medical bills, the twins, Sheila's London pad. The financial support was set to continue. So not sure why she would hate June. People testified Sheila was a loving mother and very fond of her father.

Anyway, it's impossible for Sheila to have committed the massacre on the night. And preposterous to believe Neville would ring Jeremy at any point in the night.

[Holly Goodhead]

Well there are dozens of sources confirming Jeremy's complete hatred,  contempt and resentment. Not just for June, but Neville & Sheila as well. You put too much emphasis on Sheila's illness.

Sheila had lived away from WHF for years. And had been financially supported by Neville & June for a long period. Medical bills, the twins, Sheila's London pad. The financial support was set to continue. So not sure why she would hate June. People testified Sheila was a loving mother and very fond of her father.

Anyway, it's impossible for Sheila to have committed the massacre on the night. And preposterous to believe Neville would ring Jeremy at any point in the night.

Perhaps you could provide evidence for your "dozens of sources"?  As far as I am aware the prosecution wheeled in witnesses that provided random one off statements - need to understand the context. (excl JM):

DF: "I'm not going to share my money with my sister".

JR: "I fcuking hate my parents".

RB: "I could easily kill anyone even my parents" (context understood)

SC was not kept in a life of luxury by her parents.  Why would they even if they could have afforded to?  They purchased a flat in London, which they owned, and made the generous offer of allowing SC to live in it rent free.  SC claimed DSS and CC helped out financially as much as he could given that he was a struggling, mostly out of work, artist.  June made weekly trips to SC in London to deliver food parcels.  SC would often phone NB in a panic over money worries.  On one occasion she turned to FE and borrowed some money from him.  Meanwhile SC tried to eek out a living by taking on low-paid jobs which she disliked but did because she was desperate for money eg dressing up as a schoolgirl to wait on men in a London diner.  And 'glamour' modelling where on one occasion having seen the negs she was horrified and realised she had made a dreadful mistake.  All quite sad really and not an enviable lifestyle at all.

If it was impossible for SC to have committed the massacre and preposterous that NB would call JB why did EP, Dr V and Dr Craig go along with 4 murders/1 suicide for a month?  I would suggest the relatives railroaded EP in changing the direction of the investigation as, in part, they were unable to accept that JB, a non-blood member of the Speakman dynasty, would inherit.  Remind me who found the hacksaw blade and silencer?  Who came up with the bizarre theory of a wetsuit?  Who identified the mode of transport? 

[John]

I don't doubt for a minute that Jeremy had a burning hatred of his adoptive family but the question I would like answered is WHY?

Was the hatred really directed at his natural parents for giving him up?

[guinness]

Well there are dozens of sources confirming Jeremy's complete hatred,  contempt and resentment. Not just for June, but Neville & Sheila as well. You put too much emphasis on Sheila's illness.

Sheila had lived away from WHF for years. And had been financially supported by Neville & June for a long period. Medical bills, the twins, Sheila's London pad. The financial support was set to continue. So not sure why she would hate June. People testified Sheila was a loving mother and very fond of her father.

Anyway, it's impossible for Sheila to have committed the massacre on the night. And preposterous to believe Neville would ring Jeremy at any point in the night.

There are not "DOZENS" of examples of Jeremys hate for anyone . He had a normal up and down family relationship. And he did  not try to hide that . His mother did not approve of JM  or them living in sin. And if you are going to use financial support as an argument - then Jb was paid a good wage ,had been given accommodation and expenses and shares in two companies at the age of 24.

And I don't think you seem to understand Sheilas illness - if it was her she may not have even been seeing them as her family at all.

I don't think you should be so dismissive of Hollys well thought out post

[adam]

Chapter 31, page 220 of Wilkes's book -

Julies mother Mary Mugford followed her daughter into the witness box.

She said 'Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. And he resented her for loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & I felt he was more affectionate to me'.

'He used to call me mummy all the time. He offerred me his mothers small car which had been bought that Christmas. This was just after the shooting. A list had been drawn up and he was going to keep no momentoes, which I thought very strange. He wanted to sell everthing'.

'Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him away to boarding school. He never forgave her for that.

'Apparently she was a religious maniac'.

'A few months before the murders Jeremy had told me her mother was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons, on whom she doted'.

'Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any affection towards him'.

'He often spoke of this'. 



Jeremy when testifying agreed with Mary Mugfords testimony. There are 'dozens' of other examples. Which I won't repeat. They are on Blue.

[puglove]

There are not "DOZENS" of examples of Jeremys hate for anyone . He had a normal up and down family relationship. And he did  not try to hide that . His mother did not approve of JM  or them living in sin. And if you are going to use financial support as an argument - then Jb was paid a good wage ,had been given accommodation and expenses and shares in two companies at the age of 24.

And I don't think you seem to understand Sheilas illness - if it was her she may not have even been seeing them as her family at all.

I don't think you should be so dismissive of Hollys well thought out post

You make a seriously good point there, guinness. Bamber never really loved or hated anyone, because he's a psychopath (I genuinely believe that).

Guinness, how do you think that Bamber copes so well, remains so sanguine, after 30 years of "wrongful imprisonment"? His life is behind him, we hear that his health (emotional and physical) is compromised, his handful of supporters (most of them) have obvious mental health issues.....so what motivates him?

I know what I think.

[puglove]

You make a seriously good point there, guinness. Bamber never really loved or hated anyone, because he's a psychopath (I genuinely believe that).

Guinness, how do you think that Bamber copes so well, remains so sanguine, after 30 years of "wrongful imprisonment"? His life is behind him, we hear that his health (emotional and physical) is compromised, his handful of supporters (most of them) have obvious mental health issues.....so what motivates him?

I know what I think.

I wasn't going to add to this, because I'm a bit pissed off that a certain someone pops over here from blue and removes my posts (but I do get it a bit, I do get awfully pissed on a Saturday night) but, anyhoo. Bamber, like Napper, Huntley and Bridger portrayed an outwardly normal facade. They all seemed to play the game. But....THEY ALL LEFT CLUES.

[puglove]

I wasn't going to add to this, because I'm a bit pissed off that a certain someone pops over here from blue and removes my posts (but I do get it a bit, I do get awfully pissed on a Saturday night) but, anyhoo. Bamber, like Napper, Huntley and Bridger portrayed an outwardly normal facade. They all seemed to play the game. But....THEY ALL LEFT CLUES.

I would like to say something else. Jackie polarises people, you love her or you hate her. I love her. We don't "bamber"...we talk about horses and just have a party. She's a good person, with a good heart. She's made mistakes, like me, but she's a top bird. xxx

[John]

Chapter 31, page 220 of Wilkes's book -

Julies mother Mary Mugford followed her daughter into the witness box.

She said 'Jeremy hated his mother & blamed her for turning Sheila mad. And he resented her for loving the twins more than him. Jeremy disliked his mother intensely & I felt he was more affectionate to me'.

'He used to call me mummy all the time. He offerred me his mothers small car which had been bought that Christmas. This was just after the shooting. A list had been drawn up and he was going to keep no momentoes, which I thought very strange. He wanted to sell everthing'.

'Jeremy resented his mother because she sent him away to boarding school. He never forgave her for that.

'Apparently she was a religious maniac'.

'A few months before the murders Jeremy had told me her mother was thinking of changing her will in favour of her grandsons, on whom she doted'.

'Jeremy never spoke to his mother & she never showed any affection towards him'.

'He often spoke of this'. 



Jeremy when testifying agreed with Mary Mugfords testimony. There are 'dozens' of other examples. Which I won't repeat. They are on Blue.

He was extremely jealous of the twins and June changing her will in their favour would have angered him.  No doubt Nevill would have done the same in due course and Jeremy knew it.  His actions in the robbery/trashing/arson at Osea made him the black sheep of the family.  Always remembering too that not so many months before the killings Jeremy Bamber persuaded June to bail him out with around £2000 so that he could get home from New Zealand in a hurry.  June being sworn to secrecy and couldn't tell Nevill for fear of his reaction.  This episode shows very clearly that June cared but it was not reciprocated.

[Holly Goodhead]

I note the threads have been tidied up - thank you.  However this thread was started in my name entitled "Jeremy Bamber and his hatred of his adoptive family".  I would not start a thread with such a title as I do not believe Jeremy hated any member of his immediate adoptive family".  Therefore I have changed it to "Jeremy and Sheila - Sentiments towards their immediate adoptive family".

[Holly Goodhead]

I wasn't going to add to this, because I'm a bit pissed off that a certain someone pops over here from blue and removes my posts (but I do get it a bit, I do get awfully pissed on a Saturday night) but, anyhoo. Bamber, like Napper, Huntley and Bridger portrayed an outwardly normal facade. They all seemed to play the game. But....THEY ALL LEFT CLUES.

Yes I noticed 2 of my posts were removed without any notification/explanation.  One was quite reasonable.  The other was a bit controversial.  I put up a post asking why they were removed but no response?! 

If JB is guilty (and I don't think he is) I would liken him/his case to Roderick Newall.

[Holly Goodhead]

I don't doubt for a minute that Jeremy had a burning hatred of his adoptive family but the question I would like answered is WHY?

Was the hatred really directed at his natural parents for giving him up?

I disagree.  I don't think there's any evidence that JB had anything other than 'normal' relationships with all members of his immediate family. 

As far as I can see the only dysfunctional relationship within the immediate family was the mother/daughter June/Sheila relationship.

I note throughout JM's WS's not once does she make ref to JB being adopted or use the word adoptive/adopted when referring to his family etc.  Or that he discussed adoption or his birth family.  If he had issues about his adoptive family, or adoption in general, I would have expected JB to in some way make reference to this during conversations. 

The same cannot be said for SC.  If you look through the WS's of AE, CC, CC's mother (Mrs Brencher), FE, Dr F you will see it is a theme that is repeatedly referred to. 

SC was reunited with her birth mother only weeks before the tragedy.  JB showed no interest in his birth family until after his failed 2002 appeal.

[APRIL]

There are not "DOZENS" of examples of Jeremys hate for anyone . He had a normal up and down family relationship. And he did  not try to hide that . His mother did not approve of JM  or them living in sin. And if you are going to use financial support as an argument - then Jb was paid a good wage ,had been given accommodation and expenses and shares in two companies at the age of 24.

And I don't think you seem to understand Sheilas illness - if it was her she may not have even been seeing them as her family at all. n

I don't think you should be so dismissive of Hollys well thought out post

Guinness, I agree totally with all you say BUT there is a huge difference between what we see, looking in from the outside, what Jeremy tells us it was it was like and what he actually felt. It MAY have been that he was caught up in the good child/bad child syndrome.

 It MAY have been that Sheila resented his intrusion from the start and managed, by her own behavioural traits, to divert attention away from him -a common enough experience in ANY family- to ensure her own needs were met. Sibling rivalry doesn't exist just with adopted siblings although it MAY be exacerbated by it.

 I think then, it's reasonable to assume that if Jeremy saw Sheila as being allowed to get away with just about everything, he'd blame his parents and would very likely feel that they put her first. I have yet to meet ANY family, even IF they've have been successfully worked through, in which those past issues are entirely forgotten.

There are numerous examples of Jeremy's behaviour around his mother. Mostly immature, prankish, attention seeking behaviours. It's my experience that the child who craves a parent's attention doesn't harbour hate against that parent.

[Holly Goodhead]

He was extremely jealous of the twins and June changing her will in their favour would have angered him.  No doubt Nevill would have done the same in due course and Jeremy knew it.  His actions in the robbery/trashing/arson at Osea made him the black sheep of the family.  Always remembering too that not so many months before the killings Jeremy Bamber persuaded June to bail him out with around £2000 so that he could get home from New Zealand in a hurry.  June being sworn to secrecy and couldn't tell Nevill for fear of his reaction.  This episode shows very clearly that June cared but it was not reciprocated.

There's no evidence that June and Nevill were considering any changes to their wills.   

One misdemeanour (OCP) would not cause NB and June to waiver in their love and affection for JB.  Most parents stand by their children even when they are found guilty of the most horrendous crimes.

Was JB the black sheep of the family?  The same could be said about NB's and June's nephew, Roland Pargeter, who they had staying at WHF to help him beat his addiction to recreational drugs?  I don't think NB and June were that judgemental that they would go around labelling young people as "black sheep" over one-off misdemeanours.  NB in his role as magistrate would no doubt be pragmatic about these things seeing them on a regular basis.  June as a Christian would know people are not perfect and be capable of forgiving.

June had recently written a letter to JB apologising over her treatment of him.  JM found the letter in JB's glove compartment some 10 days after the murders.  At trial Basil Cock read out a letter to the court from June in which she thanked SC and JB for all they had given her.  Adding God willing they would all meet again.  Why would she do these things if she had washed her hands of JB? 

June didn't wire 2k out to JB.  He was sent a one way ticket home.  Where's the evidence that June hid anything from NB?

I think there's a perception that as JB was adopted he should at all times show gratitude towards his adoptive parents and was undeserving of their financial support.  June paid for SC's modelling course.  She even paid for CC's driving lessons.  NB lent his nieces and nephews many thousands of pounds for property and land deals: AE land deal, AP and JP cost of renovating their grandmother's home.