Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?

[pegasus]

The patio door should have Matt's prints as well as those of Kate and Gerry - oh and also probably Dave's from earlier in the evening.

Yes, many people touched the sliding lounge door, and that is why you see many marks on it when you look at the forensic photos in the files. Only one print on this door was identified, but there were many prints on it, of not good enough clarity for identification.

[pegasus]

Would that not depend on the intensity of air movement at the time?

I think it is more likely to be a through draught from the patio doors being left open on the checks and not the kitchen chimney. I cant see anyone making any more noise than necessary while checking the children, so they would have opened the door and left it while checking, IMO. ...(snip)

The kitchen vent chimney is several stories high so the suction pulling air up it would be fairly good IMO. When someone opens the lounge sliding door this probably slightly increases the airflow though the bedroom because now the air from the bedroom can go out the sliding door as well as up the chimney. Maybe this is the cause of the noise in bedroom which was heard, according to an original english document in the files, when opening the lounge sliding door for 21.30 check?

[pegasus]

(snip)...... Wasn't it the window from the patio doors that had Kate's fingerprints?

The only prints of sufficient quality to be identified were one print of a GNR officer on the white painted aluminium of the lounge sliding door, and 5 prints of KM on the glass of the child bedroom window.

[Anna]

The only prints of sufficient quality to be identified were one print of a GNR officer on the white painted aluminium of the lounge sliding door, and 5 prints of KM on the glass of the child bedroom window.

Thanks Pegasus.
I thought that at one time it was discussed.........A mix up in photos of where the fingerprints originated from, but I have obvious got confused with another topic. Please Ignore my post

[G-Unit]

At start of check, window is open and door is in almost open position, there is airflow in through window, through door, and out kitchen vent chimney (gravity and venturi effects suck air up the vent chimney). The air pressure in the kitchen is almost the same as the pressure in the bedroom because the air is continuously flowing to make the two pressures almost the same.

Now almost close the door. The same volume of air per second still flows bedroom to kitchen through the doorway but through a much smaller gap so the air velocity is much greater and produces a large force on the door at an angle almost 90 degrees making it slam to fully closed.

The pressure in the bedroom is now much higher than in the kitchen because the airflow which tries to make them the same has been blocked.

Now open the door. Briefly there will be an airflow at a much larger velocity than before, to get rid of that large pressure difference, of enough velocity to blow the curtains in. This is when the curtains blow in. Then within seconds the airflow will reduce to the slower rate same as at beginning of check, and the curtains will stop blowing in.

The physics is all good and the witness is telling the truth IMO.

So the air is flowing out of the bedroom and instead of going straight across into the lounge area or even into the main bedroom it turns left, left and right and goes into the kitchen? Is that reasonable?

[pegasus]

What if the person was already in Madeleine's room when Matt did his check?    He then opened the window after Matt had gone,  thinking it would be a means of escape should someone come back?

IMO there was never any intruder inside the apartment.
But in your scenario if you imagine an intruder is in a wardrobe in the child bedroom, then IMO then your intruder would go out the front door as soon as the checker had left. Opening the shutter makes noise.

[pegasus]

So the air is flowing out of the bedroom and instead of going straight across into the lounge area or even into the main bedroom it turns left, left and right and goes into the kitchen? Is that reasonable?

If the three external doors are closed and all the windows are closed except the open child bedroom window, then yes the air comes in the open child bedroom window and through the open child bedroom doorway and some of it goes up the high kitchen vent chimney and some goes out the built-in vents of the closed windows and of the closed balcony doors, and probably out a bathroom vent also. Air goes from higher pressure area to lower pressure area turning as many corners as required.

[Brietta]

If the three external doors are closed and all the windows are closed except the open child bedroom window, then yes the air comes in the open child bedroom window and through the open child bedroom doorway and some of it goes up the high kitchen vent chimney and some goes out the built-in vents of the closed windows and of the closed balcony doors, and probably out a bathroom vent also. Air goes from higher pressure area to lower pressure area turning as many corners as required.

Wind also gusts.

Not sure if an intruder would have had room to squeeze past the cots to gain access to the wardrobe to hide there.  The position of the furniture in the diagram is wrong.

Misty goes for a hasty exit into the master bedroom.  I go with down behind the cot with the opaque ends in the children's room.

[Anna]

If the three external doors are closed and all the windows are closed except the open child bedroom window, then yes the air comes in the open child bedroom window and through the open child bedroom doorway and some of it goes up the high kitchen vent chimney and some goes out the built-in vents of the closed windows and of the closed balcony doors, and probably out a bathroom vent also. Air goes from higher pressure area to lower pressure area turning as many corners as required.

I have searched for a video of door slamming due to draughts, but all I can see are examples of paranormal activities.

If that is the case then I have lots of ghosts in my house who only seem to get upset by the combination of an open window and an open door or 2 open doors.


Is there air conditioning in the apartments of Ocean club?

This a question in from the link below….

I don't know the proper terminology for these things, do forgive me for any errors here. We are in a 1,000 sq ft home. The air intake for the furnace and A/C is in our hallway near our bathroom and two bedroom doors. Any time the thermostat turns on, any doors that are within a foot or so of being closed are sucked closed, hard.


http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/61261/how-can-i-prevent-my-furnace-and-a-c-from-slamming-doors

[pegasus]

I have searched for a video of door slamming due to draughts, but all I can see are examples of paranormal activities.

If that is the case then I have lots of ghosts in my house who only seem to get upset by the combination of an open window and an open door or 2 open doors.


Is there air conditioning in the apartments of Ocean club?

This a question in from the link below….

I don't know the proper terminology for these things, do forgive me for any errors here. We are in a 1,000 sq ft home. The air intake for the furnace and A/C is in our hallway near our bathroom and two bedroom doors. Any time the thermostat turns on, any doors that are within a foot or so of being closed are sucked closed, hard.


http://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/61261/how-can-i-prevent-my-furnace-and-a-c-from-slamming-doors

I don't see vents or controls so I think no a.c. or heating but I'm probably wrong?
Yes if there's a draught through a doorway, then when you almost close that door the same amouint of air tries to get through the much reduced opening so the velocity goes up and makes a force on the door so the door may slam shut or blow further open, depends which way the draught is.

[jassi]

Is there any information to show which way the draught would have blown ? Was there a prevailing wind in any direction, for example?

[Brietta]

I don't see vents or controls so I think no a.c. or heating but I'm probably wrong?
Yes if there's a draught through a doorway, then when you almost close that door the same amouint of air tries to get through the much reduced opening so the velocity goes up and makes a force on the door so the door may slam shut or blow further open, depends which way the draught is.

If there is no open fireplace I would imagine there would be central heating of some kind.  Some residents were in occupation all year round and not just in the summer months.

Anna was right about some people attributing similar happenings to the paranormal and who is to say that is not the case as far as their experience is concerned.
However the more down to earth have come up with rational answers which you and others have already brought to the forum.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20150608161309AAJ9Sqc
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/why-does-the-wind-slam-doors.136658/
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-door-slam-when-a-window-is-open

[pegasus]

Wind also gusts.

Not sure if an intruder would have had room to squeeze past the cots to gain access to the wardrobe to hide there.  The position of the furniture in the diagram is wrong.

Misty goes for a hasty exit into the master bedroom.  I go with down behind the cot with the opaque ends in the children's room.

Yes there are also gusts to consider.
IMO no intruder entered the apartment. But if you imagine an intruder did enter, and he is in the child bedroom when a checker enters the lounge from balcony, your intruder is not going to move to any other room (the checker would see him if he did). He is not going to hide behind the door because it's already almost open and its in an alcove (the checker would see if he closed then opened the door to hide behind it). So the choices are duck behind a cot or quickly get in wardrobe. So if you want to introduce an imaginary intruder in the bedroom you could argue that the noise heard coming from the child bedroom was him getting in a wardrobe. Obviously that's not my theory.

[Anna]

Is there any information to show which way the draught would have blown ? Was there a prevailing wind in any direction, for example?

Which side of the apartment was the wind blowing from?
There was very little protection against the wind blowing in the children's bedroom as it was facing straight onto the car park and main road with no wind deflection.



it is important to determine the airflow pattern around the house, following the principles of aerodynamics, and to orient the inlet appropriately in the airflow. Generally, a building placed in the wind will create a zone of compression to the windward side and a low-pressure zone to the leeward side. This low-pressure zone continues a certain distance beyond the building, depending on the wind velocity. The faster the wind velocity, the shorter the low-pressure zone extends, because of eddies created on the leeward side which disrupt the smooth airflow pattern. For normal wind velocities, the length of the low-pressure zone can be taken to be five times the height of the building.

[jassi]

Which side of the apartment was the wind blowing from?
There was very little protection against the wind blowing in the children's bedroom as it was facing straight onto the car park and main road with no wind deflection.



it is important to determine the airflow pattern around the house, following the principles of aerodynamics, and to orient the inlet appropriately in the airflow. Generally, a building placed in the wind will create a zone of compression to the windward side and a low-pressure zone to the leeward side. This low-pressure zone continues a certain distance beyond the building, depending on the wind velocity. The faster the wind velocity, the shorter the low-pressure zone extends, because of eddies created on the leeward side which disrupt the smooth airflow pattern. For normal wind velocities, the length of the low-pressure zone can be taken to be five times the height of the building.

If a wind was blowing off the sea, which it is likely to do, which side of the building would it be likely to affect most ?